Anthropogenic global environmental changes: what is the wisest advice?

[Dennis Leahy]

Note the specific wording: "Anthropogenic global environmental change" - we humans are most certainly responsible for changing our local environment (deforestation, agriculture, animal production & waste, manufacturing and domestic pollution, etc), and our local environment is certainly connected to the larger whole (the Earth.)

A certain amount of pollution is inevitable, as even the natural bodily output from 7 billion people certainly adds up to have an impact. I think it is also obvious that unrestrained, greedy, business self-interests have proven to unconscionably release all of the operational effluent from their businesses, if allowed. So, those with a conscience need to police those without a conscience (until the 'general consciousness of mankind' becomes enlightened enough to self-police, if that ever happens.) How far do we go? Where do you stand?

Is CO2 our major pollutant problem? If yes, what should we advocate?

In reading quite a bit about AGW (both "sides"), a few things became obvious to me:
Nefarious people seized the CO2 issue; Cap & Trade was born.
Some data was purposely obfuscated, some was left out, some was under-reported, some was over-reported, some falsehoods were introduced, some data is uncollectable or unknown, some data has been intentionally or unintentionally misinterpreted.
Climate science, using honestly reported data interpreted as honestly and scientifically as possible, is valid science.
(accurate) Climate prediction is impossible. I believe that the sincere climatologists are giving it their best shot, and like a gamble on a roulette wheel, some scientists' predictions will prove to be correct (although it may be by luck and not by observed scientific trend.) There really are too many variables, not the least of which is the sun.
(excess/out-of-balance) CO2 as a "pollutant", makes sense to me. I'm pretty sure that no one (credible) is debating the science of the "greenhouse effect." I'm not sure that any climatologist is really sure what it means for the long-term atmospheric trend (cooling, warming, nothing significant), but ocean acidification does appear to me to be the 'canary in the coalmine' that current CO2 levels are already too high for many species.


There are financial scammers that would bet on how many breaths your grandma has left on her deathbed, they would bet on how many bullets they could shoot into a puppy until it went limp, they would run a scam or 'game' literally anything - including gravity or the laws of thermodynamics - if allowed to get away with it. It comes as no surprise at all that when climate data was reported, that their tentacles uncurled from behind the curtain, and they jumped in with the concept of "Trade", the 'financial instrument' of Cap & Trade policy. The "Trade" in Cap & Trade is obvious to anyone with one eye even half open to be a scam, pure and simple. But, is "Cap" a scam?

Capping, or reducing, CO2 emissions would benefit mankind and (probably) every species on the planet. Marine ecologists have reported a 40% loss in phytoplankton, the major building block of the food chain on Earth, and the single major provider of oxygen to the planet. Without resorting to predictions, measured temperatures of the ocean's surface and measured pH of ocean water shows warmer, more acidic ocean water. Marine ecologists, independent of atmospheric climatologists, point to CO2 as the major culprit in warming and acidification of the oceans. If we are awake and aware, don't we need to protect our oceans?

What do we have to lose if we chase away the "Trade" scammers with a stick, and embrace the "Cap" concept? Financial skeptics argue that whether we tax right down to the homeowner and car driver, or whether we tax the industries that produce the most CO2 and they pass it along to us in higher prices, one way or another we will be taxed? I see that as partially true, but realistic. When we mandate things like smokestack scrubbers and catalytic converters, we pay more for our goods. But, being honest and conscientious, isn't that closer to the "correct" price for the goods? For example, a gold prospector can use cyanide to help refine gold right at the stream, maximizing HIS profits, but what price do WE pay for this gold?

I envision, rather than "tax", would be to "mandate" CO2 levels, just like we do with other pollutants.
Other CO2 reduction strategies:

Halting deforestation (replaced with managed timber extraction and reforestation (not plantations or 'tree farms')
Phasing out 'ranch-raised' animals as meat. This would be the toughest to implement, as so many humans equate meat eating with prosperity (and maybe health.)
Fossil fuels would no longer be our primary fuels if we took a stand to phase them out. Cars can run on compressed air (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uVIwropRMME) or hydrogen or batteries (with the initial energy coming from solar or new energy sources.
Mandate development and use of new energy sources that produce little or no CO2


Sorry I'm being verbose, and I only intend this as an opening for a discussion.

Dennis

[HURRITT ENYETO]

Nice well thought out thread.
Like you said it is almost impossible to predict what the climate will do (too many variables as stated) but i dont belive C02 is warming the climate although it can !

I would suggest that the climate is warming for other reasons, Suns activity Cosmic changes etc. which then causes the Oceans, peat bogs, permafrost to release their stored C02 which then warms the planet further and around and around it goes.

Maybe if we didn't deforest the Earth so much our forests would be able to deal with much of the C02 increase (mother nature adapts remarkably well too a point) I think there needs to be a fundamental change in the business practices of these large corporations towards environmentally friendlier practises.

It is extremely short sighted of these mega corporations to only think of short term profit, you need to think longer term. What are their children going to do when the planet is a wreck? because their children and grandchildren will suffer with everyone else, apparently they don't care!!

IMHO if a serious effort was made to find clean new energy sources (i think they already have them) much of these problems would vanish or be significantly reduced. De salinisation of Oceans etc.

Thanks for thread Dennis :)
Hurritt

[Tea]

Here are some people you may consider credible.


The Great Global Warming Swindle - Part 1 of 7


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=augWGYU_Av4

The Great Global Warming Swindle - Part 2 of 7
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zsnAEauEIUA&feature=related

The Great Global Warming Swindle - Part 3 of 7
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pwWD1WvM-Pk&feature=related

The Great Global Warming Swindle - Part 4 of 7
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ag7d3-qlhOI&feature=related

The Great Global Warming Swindle - Part 5 of 7
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8_Lg4Fn4yco&feature=related

The Great Global Warming Swindle - Part 6 of 7
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7oPooNOeB84&feature=related

The Great Global Warming Swindle - Part 7 of 7
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4HwqUv23yuA&feature=related




Global Warming - Doomsday Called Off (1/5)


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fr5O1HsTVgA&feature=related

Global Warming - Doomsday Called Off (2/5)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fD6VBLlWmCI

Globabl Warming - Doomsday Called Off (3/5)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gZS2eIRkcR0

Global Warming - Doomsday Called Off (4/5)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dIbTJ6mhCqk&feature=related

Global Warming - Doomsday Called Off (5/5)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v2XALmrq3ro&feature=related

[Dennis Leahy]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jqxENMKaeCU
Home (documentary, 1 hr:33min)

Breathtaking photography, (much of it aerial, and expansive), showing the stunning beauty and bounty of our planet. And, gut-wrenching footage of our human destructive folly.

Anthropogenically released carbon dioxide is certainly mentioned as a major problem in our lack of stewardship, but that is balanced with our insatiable thirst for fresh water, enormous over-consumption of fish, illogical diversion of crops into animal feed, devastation to forests, desertification, over-consumption of mineral wealth, and our rapid population rise. A powerful and poignant examination of the effect of humanity on the planet, primarily over the last 50 to 60 years. My lifetime.

With that list, your first thought may be to skip this one, but please don't: it should be essential, required viewing for every human inhabitant on our planet, and it ends on a positive, upbeat note and a rallying cry to all of us.

Dennis

[Teakai]

Hi Dennis, I think what you propose is exactly what 'they' planned for people to do.

“In searching for a new enemy to unite us, we came up with the idea that pollution, the threat of global warming, water shortages, famine and the like would fit the bill…. All these dangers are caused by human intervention… The real enemy, then, is humanity itself.” "

From Chapter 5 - page 75 of http://www.archive.org/details/TheFirstGlobalRevolution written by the club of rome. It's in the public domain.
It looks like a fairly enlightening read all round.

[Dennis Leahy]

I cannot see any way to shirk the responsibility that I have, as one of the 7 billion, to admit that my individual footprint may be small but as a mass, our footprint is large.

Even if the Club of Rome, the "33" ruling families and their banking and corporate cabals ALL want me to feel that it is my responsibility, that I am the one who is f&^$ing-up the Earth, and even if they want to try to shirk their responsibility, I still see my part in the devastation and my responsibility in the awakening, paradigm shift, and cleanup. I also see my goal - a healthy and biologically diverse Gaia with a relatively benign human population - as intelligent and compassionate. I would consider myself to be ignorant and selfish I was not able to accept my responsibility.

I truly think that the "trade" in "cap & trade", that is, elites trying to scam us to pay for all of the cleanup, and pay them a profit for nothing, is our mental stumbling block. Think of the Mafia and garbage collection: if Mafia thugs take over an area and control garbage collection, skimming profits, that does not mean that garbage collection is bad - the Mafia enforcers are bad. The top of the pyramid, the ruling elite, are really, in simple terms, a mob syndicate. They will skim money off of anything: war, medicine, resources, sex, water, food, or environmental cleanup. They don't care what we define as our needs - whatever those needs currently are, they will scam us and skim as much as they can. We have to be wise enough to see beyond that and not allow a knee-jerk reaction to their tactics to cloud our judgment about Earth stewardship and our (and many species) current environmental perilous reality.

Dennis

[Teakai]

I cannot see any way to shirk the responsibility that I have, as one of the 7 billion, to admit that my individual footprint may be small but as a mass, our footprint is large.

Even if the Club of Rome, the "33" ruling families and their banking and corporate cabals ALL want me to feel that it is my responsibility, that I am the one who is f&^$ing-up the Earth, and even if they want to try to shirk their responsibility, I still see my part in the devastation and my responsibility in the awakening, paradigm shift, and cleanup. I also see my goal - a healthy and biologically diverse Gaia with a relatively benign human population - as intelligent and compassionate. I would consider myself to be ignorant and selfish I was not able to accept my responsibility.

I truly think that the "trade" in "cap & trade", that is, elites trying to scam us to pay for all of the cleanup, and pay them a profit for nothing, is our mental stumbling block. Think of the Mafia and garbage collection: if Mafia thugs take over an area and control garbage collection, skimming profits, that does not mean that garbage collection is bad - the Mafia enforcers are bad. The top of the pyramid, the ruling elite, are really, in simple terms, a mob syndicate. They will skim money off of anything: war, medicine, resources, sex, water, food, or environmental cleanup. They don't care what we define as our needs - whatever those needs currently are, they will scam us and skim as much as they can. We have to be wise enough to see beyond that and not allow a knee-jerk reaction to their tactics to cloud our judgment about Earth stewardship and our (and many species) current environmental perilous reality.

Dennis

I agree to a point, Dennis, we have a responsibility – but where does it start and where does it end? Do we have the right to police others as you suggest – or should we simply be responsible for our own actions and allow others to do the same?
Who is to make the rules for what's acceptable?
Is it OK for our neighbours to only drive their car on Wednesday and Fridays because that's what we do?
Is it OK for your neighbours to have their heaters on only after 5pm, because that’s what time you feel is suitable?


- we humans are most certainly responsible for changing our local environment (deforestation, agriculture, animal production & waste, manufacturing and domestic pollution, etc), and our local environment is certainly connected to the larger whole (the Earth.)


By this comment, it sounds like you have bought into their blame game - the one they had planned. And that you want to police your neighbour is also what they have planned. Yes, we do change our environment – but not to justify the scam they’ve put on us – but, you’re buying into it enough to want to ‘police people’ who you see as having 'less conscience'. It reminded me of this video when I read it.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9MI8Rtgts1Q&playnext=1&list=PL68A007674E98A41D

[Dennis Leahy]

I cannot see any way to shirk the responsibility that I have, as one of the 7 billion, to admit that my individual footprint may be small but as a mass, our footprint is large.

Even if the Club of Rome, the "33" ruling families and their banking and corporate cabals ALL want me to feel that it is my responsibility, that I am the one who is f&^$ing-up the Earth, and even if they want to try to shirk their responsibility, I still see my part in the devastation and my responsibility in the awakening, paradigm shift, and cleanup. I also see my goal - a healthy and biologically diverse Gaia with a relatively benign human population - as intelligent and compassionate. I would consider myself to be ignorant and selfish I was not able to accept my responsibility.

I truly think that the "trade" in "cap & trade", that is, elites trying to scam us to pay for all of the cleanup, and pay them a profit for nothing, is our mental stumbling block. Think of the Mafia and garbage collection: if Mafia thugs take over an area and control garbage collection, skimming profits, that does not mean that garbage collection is bad - the Mafia enforcers are bad. The top of the pyramid, the ruling elite, are really, in simple terms, a mob syndicate. They will skim money off of anything: war, medicine, resources, sex, water, food, or environmental cleanup. They don't care what we define as our needs - whatever those needs currently are, they will scam us and skim as much as they can. We have to be wise enough to see beyond that and not allow a knee-jerk reaction to their tactics to cloud our judgment about Earth stewardship and our (and many species) current environmental perilous reality.

Dennis

I agree to a point, Dennis, we have a responsibility – but where does it start and where does it end? Do we have the right to police others as you suggest – or should we simply be responsible for our own actions and allow others to do the same?
Who is to make the rules for what's acceptable?
Is it OK for our neighbours to only drive their car on Wednesday and Fridays because that's what we do?
Is it OK for your neighbours to have their heaters on only after 5pm, because that’s what time you feel is suitable?


- we humans are most certainly responsible for changing our local environment (deforestation, agriculture, animal production & waste, manufacturing and domestic pollution, etc), and our local environment is certainly connected to the larger whole (the Earth.)


By this comment, it sounds like you have bought into their blame game - the one they had planned. And that you want to police your neighbour is also what they have planned. Yes, we do change our environment – but not to justify the scam they’ve put on us – but, you’re buying into it enough to want to ‘police people’ who you see as having 'less conscience'.

The "neighbors" that I want to police are multinational corporations, not whether you turn out your light when you leave the kitchen.

I do want you to want to turn out your light when you leave the kitchen, and I want you to turn it off - especially right now when someone is burning coal to make electricity. There are other things that ordinary citizens do that we should stop doing or cut way down - like eating meat - which is probably the most difficult voluntary thing for people to do. The animals raised for meat make an enormous mess and use up vast resources. If there was no other environmental problems except for the ones caused by meat we would still face catastrophe on this planet in terms of being able to feed everyone. 7 billion now, (I'll bet) 15 billion by the time I'm 100 years old. So yeah, there are individual sacrifices that the planet's horde needs to consider.

However...

You say "justify the scam" and I must not be forming my thoughts into words very well. I say, f*^$ them and their TRADE scam! I don't want to give a single penny to the scammers, in fact, I want to turn the cannon around and fire at them: I want THEM to pay for the BIG cleanup! Not you, not me, the freakin' oil companies, and the coal companies, and the open pit mining companies...

We humans currently have suppressed technology for "free" energy that causes zero pollution. Zero. It is suppressed because the fat cats behind oil want to squeak every penny out of oil they can, and they don't care who dies (humans or myriad other species), and they don't care how badly they pollute the planet.

Corporations have a MAJOR responsibility to pay for the clean up, and they will not do it unless there is a gun to their head.

Look at my list:
"...Anthropogenically released carbon dioxide is certainly mentioned as a major problem in our lack of stewardship, but that is balanced with our
insatiable thirst for fresh water,
enormous over-consumption of fish,
illogical diversion of crops into animal feed,
devastation to forests,
desertification,
over-consumption of mineral wealth,
and our rapid population rise...."

I suspect you're getting stuck on the anthropo-CO2, and maybe not reading the rest. The multinational corporations, and their dirty technology, and their dirty and deadly resource extraction are certainly at the greatest fault and I want THEM to be forced to pay and pay and be forced not only to clean up the mess but change their ways:
I want 'free"/clean energy technology released, which will end oil and coal and gas
I want "free"clean energy technology to be applied to water desalination on a major, global scale
I want timber extraction to be done to Rainforest Alliance/ Forest Stewardship Council standards
I want mining companies to be forced into very strict practices to minimize ecological damage, and then cover/replant when done.

The list for individuals is, understandably more difficult, but we need to figure out how to:
Stabilize the population, at some number. Maybe the number is 20billion happy healthy people (plus wilderness area, plus habitat for all species to thrive) that can live on this planet with the "free"/clean energy technologies implemented.
Greatly reduce or eliminate meat and fish from the human diet. (I can hear the pitchforks rattling and the torches being lit, but there is no way to have 7 billion happy healthy omnivores on the planet, with other species thriving. It cannot be done. Meat eating is elitist and unnecessary for human health.

A whole bunch of very sincere, not bought-out scientists believe that CO2 is a huge environmental problem, and I know something is acidifying the oceans and killing the phytoplankton - not a prediction but a current reality. You may choose to believe the whole bunch of very sincere, not bought-out scientists that do not believe that CO2 is a huge environmental problem. That's OK. If the list of huge environmental problems that I listed is addressed, CO2 will go down any way, along with the clean-up. So, we don't even need to focus on CO2.

Dennis

[Teakai]

Hi Dennis, I do very much agree that we would all be much better off with the free energy that is being kept from us. In fact, I think we would be much better off if we were traipsing the nation and living off the earth and wearing loincloths than we are now.

But - how would you propose policing these big companies? I could see that it could work if 'everybody' simply stopped using them, or buying from them.
But until a lot more people wake up to what's going on then there seems to be little we can do that would make a difference apart from not giving them our business.

It seems to me that our entire system is corrupted and needs to be scrapped so as to create an harmonious and non damaging one.
Is it even possible to have that sort of society - or will there always be those who wish to profit no matter the price?

[Dennis Leahy]

Yes, what I'm proposing is massive, and will not happen with the current governments and secret governments in place and doing business as usual.

Step 1 is for the good guys to gain control of the planet. (Notice I didn't say "re-gain control" because I don't believe the good guys have ever had control of the planet.)

Dennis

[Teakai]

Yes, what I'm proposing is massive, and will not happen with the current governments and secret governments in place and doing business as usual.

Step 1 is for the good guys to gain control of the planet. (Notice I didn't say "re-gain control" because I don't believe the good guys have ever had control of the planet.)

Dennis

I'd say you're right, Dennis. But I think good guys don't fancy controlling others. Only ego desires to control.

I wonder if this experience is a pre-programmed roller coaster ride. This, this and this is going to happen - how we handle it, what we make of it, how we act toward others when the chips are down is all part of the growth process.
Maybe this is the lesson earth gives. Maybe the only thing we can do is to be our authentic self. If everyone did that - there would be no problem.
:)

[Dennis Leahy]

Yes, what I'm proposing is massive, and will not happen with the current governments and secret governments in place and doing business as usual.

Step 1 is for the good guys to gain control of the planet. (Notice I didn't say "re-gain control" because I don't believe the good guys have ever had control of the planet.)

Dennis

I'd say you're right, Dennis. But I think good guys don't fancy controlling others. Only ego desires to control.

I wonder if this experience is a pre-programmed roller coaster ride. This, this and this is going to happen - how we handle it, what we make of it, how we act toward others when the chips are down is all part of the growth process.
Maybe this is the lesson earth gives. Maybe the only thing we can do is to be our authentic self. If everyone did that - there would be no problem.
:)

Yeah, "control" was a poorly chosen word. Mother Nature, for example, does not need to be controlled. But (after we clean up the mess), the greed in some people will almost undoubtedly rise again, and we all need to be vigilant to prevent a recurrence.

I have wondered the same thing. Maybe this incarnation is more about trying, and trying, and trying in the face of insurmountable odds. Maybe on a spiritual level, that's the lesson. But I cry from the marrow of my bones to think of all the myriad life forms that suffer and may perish as species if we don't get further than the "try" stage and onto the "success" stage.

Dennis

[Teakai]

Yes, what I'm proposing is massive, and will not happen with the current governments and secret governments in place and doing business as usual.

Step 1 is for the good guys to gain control of the planet. (Notice I didn't say "re-gain control" because I don't believe the good guys have ever had control of the planet.)

Dennis

I'd say you're right, Dennis. But I think good guys don't fancy controlling others. Only ego desires to control.

I wonder if this experience is a pre-programmed roller coaster ride. This, this and this is going to happen - how we handle it, what we make of it, how we act toward others when the chips are down is all part of the growth process.
Maybe this is the lesson earth gives. Maybe the only thing we can do is to be our authentic self. If everyone did that - there would be no problem.
:)

Yeah, "control" was a poorly chosen word. Mother Nature, for example, does not need to be controlled. But (after we clean up the mess), the greed in some people will almost undoubtedly rise again, and we all need to be vigilant to prevent a recurrence.

I have wondered the same thing. Maybe this incarnation is more about trying, and trying, and trying in the face of insurmountable odds. Maybe on a spiritual level, that's the lesson. But I cry from the marrow of my bones to think of all the myriad life forms that suffer and may perish as species if we don't get further than the "try" stage and onto the "success" stage.

Dennis

Maybe it's not about 'trying' so much as about surrendering our ego to our higher self?

I was thinking today that overcoming ego identity indoctrination would have to be one of the biggest challenges - because the enemy is within . It's like doing battle with yourself. And the self that is imaginary is the one that puts up the biggest fight. Most of the time people don't even realise the duality of who they are - so, you can see how that could be a difficult challenge. Looking for an unseen enemy using the eyes of the enemy.
This might sound crazy, but you might understand what I'm talking about :)

Now, if ego surrendered, for it isn't really a battle because only the ego will fight to survive, we would all be functioning at higher mind/soul level. We would be looking at the world around us from a spiritual perspective.

We wouldn't always be looking for material satisfaction or looking to outside sources to fix us or make us happy. The bad guys wouldn't have a market for us and therefore wouldn't be able to profit from us.

That's how I'm seeing it at the moment anyway. :)

[Riggaz]

The paradigm that we live in at the moment is not our own, it was made for us by the elite. We are no match for them militarily or financially, the only thing we can do is change the way that we as individuals operate and, to the corporations that harm the earth, withdraw our consent and stop using their products and services. The elite control all the corporations, own all the doors and they have all the keys, as a wise man once said, we can only change ourselves and supply information to those around us so that they can do the same. We all know how beautiful our planet is and how much our lives depend on her being healthy, we obviously have to look out for her. The more people that we can unplug the better. Where is that damn 100th monkey?!:confused:;)

[MargueriteBee]

I was thinking about over population but what I see are many people who have not had any children because they feel the earth is full. We have already multiplied and filled the earth. I think reducing the population can happen on a voluntary basis.

[Riggaz]

I was thinking about over population but what I see are many people who have not had any children because they feel the earth is full. We have already multiplied and filled the earth. I think reducing the population can happen on a voluntary basis.

I think you are right

It can be done with education rather than genocide