Samsara, Karma & How To Escape

[Constance]

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[gini]

:amen:Brilliant & Beautyful!

[Constance]

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[Johan (Keyholder)]

Interesting website and man! Thanks for the link Constance!:thumbsup:

[greybeard]

Form - Formless - both and neither.
One without a second -- no subject no object -- just consciousness.
Formless condenses into matter then returns to formless -- no thing.
Illusion is not what it seems to be --it has "identity" but not what is perceived.
I am That. by Nasargadatta is a great read.

The opening post here is a great pointer, thanks
Chris

[Mark (Star Mariner)]

Am I alone in having major problems with this article? It is antithetical to everything I know to be true. It's OK if people want to believe it, but if you're in search of spiritual information, reader beware. For, ironically here, in an article about 'traps', traps are laid.


The observation that the more good you put into the world/your-reality then the more good is in the world/your-reality…is useful only for crazy people who believe if they plant oranges they’re going to get bananas.

Read that a few times and parse it out. This is at the root of what he's sowing here - the idea that what you do doesn't really matter, because you see, the Universe is governed not by rules, systems and laws, or God, but by a sort of chaos.

Nothing could be further from the truth. Karma is a Universal reality. And it's not an illusion. It's the immutable, inescapable law of cause and effect, of action having an equal and opposite reaction. It works the same across the Universe. So above, so below. Now and forever.


In the metaphor, the gamblers cannot leave the roulette table, just as you cannot leave existence. So you’re always at the roulette table. Sometimes you are winning, and sometimes you are losing. But it literally doesn’t matter because you’re not going anywhere, it all just comes back around whatever happens.

Again, life is a craps shoot. There doesn't seem to be any consequences in the system he's presenting. Which is entirely consistent with the materialist point of view.


It’s an illusion and always has been. There is no Samsara and no karma.

In other words, do as thou wilt...

Which is the well-known foundation of another philosophy I think we all know. The same that bespeaks - as does this article - of just a random physical universe not a spiritual reality.

He goes on to oppose the fundamental truth that darkness is a by-product of light's absence, when it absolutely is, the same way that cold is merely the absence of thermal energy rather a force of its own.


So the final realization is that you already exist at the end-state. Where you are now is the destination. You are already a Buddha and always have been.

If this was the truth, there would be no value in the lessons we learn, no use in the struggle, and no purpose to existence at all. Yes this reality is an illusion, but that doesn't make it unreal. It's just a lesser, smaller, more rudimentary reality than the many greater ones that lie beyond.

We're incarnated down here for a reason, and that reason is principally karma. We are certainly not in any 'end state', we are no where near the end state. That cannot be attained in this reality, or the next, or the next, or the next. The climb towards the godhead is virtually an infinite one.

As to his claims in this article, nothing could be further from reality. Nothing. Honestly, this is at best new age gobbledegook, at worse, a veiled disinfo attack on the spiritual movement.

:heart: @ Constance

[greybeard]

The perspective of the enlightened is uniform.
One consciousness flowing through every thing There is no where that "God" is not.
Everything vibrating same energy but different "frequency" therfore different forms.
No subject no object -- there is no one separate from "you " to do anything to you.
HOWEVER -- the actors on stage perform
"Events happen
Deeds are done
But there is no individual doer there of"
When we dream everything is so real -- the body in sleep can react to the dream as though it is real.
The standard advice in non duality is remove all concepts, Neity Neity -- not this, not this.

I accept there are duality paths -- me and God.
What to believe? -- Nothing.
Belief is conditioned -- its depends on what spiritual book you read last.
Now I know nothing -- I started of with a very broad knowledge and belief, wide path -- now it is a razor edge, no search, nothing out there to find.
Its like peeling the onion, so many layers, each is true till it is not. Till it is discarded.
All that is needed is the awareness I am.
That is the current understanding -- it may well change -- all the rest has gone.
The enlightened are beyond Karma. Does consciousness have Karma?
The seeming individual is in a different league time being.
Chris

[Ernie Nemeth]

Seems like you have a lot invested in your Karma, Star.

All that was claimed was a unique and clever way to see reality, as opposing anti-reality, which is just as real. And if anti-reality is seen and called reality then its opposite is the reality now considered anti-reality. They are anti-pods. And when summed up it equals exactly...zero - the exact sum of a zero sum game!

[Mark]

Very clever use of words here that do not help us navigate our reality. I find that a lot of folks attempt to escape karma, to believe that their passage through the world is without effect and that they do not have to pay for the consequences of their actions. If you can change the state of being with your mind, which many people say is quite possible, then perhaps this perspective can be valid for the person strong enough to escape the intrinsic pull of a shared, co-created reality and psychological context engrained in us since childhood and, potentially, even before.

[Lunesoleil]

What about Samsara? What about karma? And the cycles? If you realize that nothing is more of a thing than something. So clearly cycles are no longer just non-cycles. A cycle then is not something that can be observed, or something that you could consider yourself in, unless you choose to view non-cycles as the real thing.

Why should we live in a form of non-cycle?
We live today in the age of Kali yuga, called the iron age and the darkest of the four ages

These four ages (yuga):

Krita Yuga (World Age or Golden Age) is 1.728 million years old.
Tretā Yuga (Second World Age or Silver Age) is 1.296 million years old.
Dvapara Yuga (Third Age or Bronze Age) is 0.864 million years old.
Kaliyuga (Fourth Age or Iron Age) is 0.432 million years old.

https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kali_Yuga#/media/Fichier:Yugas.png
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kali_Yuga

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f2/Yugas.png
for the image in the wikipedia version in french

[Catsquotl]

Co-creative life cycles. Are just that. co-created life appearing cyclical.
They are imagined and through the spheres manifest in all the realms imagined.
Samsara or Karma are not traps. They are there because those that recognize patterns, talk to elders and guru's have been led to believe the cyclical nature of things.


Stepping away or no longer participating in the cycles means the death of self and Self.
If I think about the imaginatory nature of what we co-create I cannot think it comes about any other way that through our intent.
Stop intending(wanting, grasping, desiring) anything and enlightenment will surely befall you.


However that raw experience of what is, without the relief that hopes and dreams bring is a tad rough on most.
Either way.. One is not better than the other. Both are expressions of life as it is. I would even go as far as to say that those who dare to dream are the co-creators of tomorrow. Those that choose to step away from it or become enlightened do so in favor of self destruction.


With Love
Eelco

[Constance]

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[Constance]

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[Mark]

Dear Rahkyt, if what was shared by this person wasn't helpful, what is helpful?

I only find so much usefulness in proclaiming the emptiness and uselessness of all things. It does not jibe with lived experience and serves to confuse those who might otherwise gain wisdom through work with the inner dialogue, as opposed to concepts that have little practical application.

Unless you have experienced a satori/kensho event, it is an intellectual exercise only because the state itself is nigh beyond conception as anything other than a theoretical happenstance. Engaging in wordplay to explore being and non-being, the dichotomous nature of life beyond the material manifestation of this world, is a similar intellectual exercise that does little to help me when I must chop wood and carry water, or when I stub my toe against a non-existent rock, or must deal with other people not so intellectually enlightened, who certainly would not agree with my abstract statement of non-being.

I appreciate the effort, and there are some wonderful statements of truth that can help those seeking these states, but the seeking itself - as well as the intellectual exercise of going down the logic rabbit hole - does nothing to bring them on. In fact, they could serve to reinforce mental forms that make achieving states of enlightenment less likely as the mind's engagement with the concepts continues. So they are word exercises and not even of the type known as a zen koan, where you can at least use the statements to bring on such a state of mental stasis that deeper forms of contemplation do become experientially available.


I wholeheartedly agree with you Rahkyt regarding the possibilities for people being able to have a genuine shift in consciousness and being able to transcend the duality of this world.

Oh yes. That is an imminent and very real potentiality. Sages might say that the seeking takes you further away from it, but it is a part of our cultural understanding that we must engage the mind directly in these matters and, perhaps, in time, our intellects will imbue us with the capacity to experience kensho ourselves. It does not work that way, but it makes for good discussion and debate.

[Ernie Nemeth]

Nothing could be further from the truth. Karma is a Universal reality. And it's not an illusion. It's the immutable, inescapable law of cause and effect, of action having an equal and opposite reaction..



'And inaction having an equal and opposite re-inaction.'

It is an interesting truth because it is actually not saying anything. The spaces between words are just as important as the words themselves...or are they?

Everything has an opposite because we live confined by absolutes. We are bracketed by zero and infinity, bound by time and space. That is how we define ourselves. We observe these truths while bound to the body we inhabit. It is not ourselves we define but the container we occupy.

This is also true of reality. We define reality in terms of the reactions of our bodies to it.

If there is no physical reality, as dreams would suggest is the case, and this is a mindscape, a mental construct, then the definitions are the parameters of each such construct.

It is like a giant bubble, really: A thought bubble that expands outward, as the definition elaborates more and more particulars.

But the fundamental construct, in this analogy, is also a giant bubble - and each entity commands their own unique bubble within it.

So although the reality is actually a froth of bubbles within an all-encompassing bubble, we only see through our own unique bubble most of the time. That is our perspective.

If we can imagine that the definitions we believe ourselves to be are merely the descriptions of the border of our personal bubble, we can see that there is both a whole lot more inside and a whole lot more outside this circumference that has no definition and is a complete mystery.

Only by pushing past this boundary, inward and outward, can it be understood that in fact...there is only one bubble...and there is a great deal of controversy regarding its 'definition'.

The problem is simple...we do not know who we are and what we think we are is also incorrect. For this reason our reality seems fragmented and chaotic.


And it is for this reason that reality can be said to be just as false as anti-reality.

[Catsquotl]

Regarding karma.

There is a saying,

karma is only for those who cannot stay in the present moment


Here is something that Brian Gerard Schaefer had to say about karma. It is brutally honest but it gets right to the heart of the matter.




Brian Schaefer
The Real Meaning of Karma
April 14, 2016
The thing about actions like cruelty, racism, bullying, killing etc., is that there is a point within Consciousness where the perpetrator becomes the victim. Therefore, EVERYTHING you do, you are actually doing to yourself.

Understanding this negates the need to ever talk about, debate or argue over anything that is not honouring this Truth - it all just goes without saying. The basis of this understanding is also the key to knowing how to truly Love, and why the essence of Love is our True Nature - and the only thing we need to express.

We are already everything we need to be. This is what the writer in my OP is referring to. We just need it drawn out of us and nurtured and nourished. All that stuff about having to do shadow work etc is completely inappropriate to who we are as beings; all we have to do is put back what is missing in our lives.:heart:




Karma in my humble opinion has changed much of it's meaning over the years.
For those staying in the moment, Stubbing ones toe unto the imaginary table leg will usually result in strangely hopping about for a few seconds whilst noises escape through your mouth.



Karma is nothing more than this interplay between cause and effect.
To imbue a form of intelligent reward and punishment mechanism on top of the simplicity of karma I think is wrong.
There is something to be said for a larger karmic cycle, but getting at the heart of that mechanism requires observation not conjecture.


Seeing how the mind reacts to the (6)senses in meditation (thoughts being the sensory produce of the mind as seeing is the sensory produce of the eyes for example) will make this simple law clear.


With Love
Eelco

[Constance]

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[Constance]

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[Catsquotl]

But I overrode that intuition and the end result was that I cut my finger.

However, it was all perfect suffering :)

Our eyes and our ears can be fooled (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Z01336nDlU&ab_channel=GoodMythicalMorning)and so observation is not the only tool required.

We can have degrees of realizations around something but there are no degrees of awareness. We are either aware of something or we are not. For example, we are either aware of the fingers on our hands or we are not.

Regarding your comment here




To imbue a form of intelligent reward and punishment mechanism on top of the simplicity of karma I think is wrong.

Can you say more about what you mean by to imbue a form of intelligent reward and punishment.
Who, what, where, how, when. Thanks. :flower:


As I mentioned in my previous post, cause and effect is an intellectual understanding of the world. You can read what I shared here (https://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?113929-Samsara-Karma-How-To-Escape&p=1409148&viewfull=1#post1409148).


Regarding your comment here




Seeing how the mind reacts to the (6)senses in meditation (thoughts being the sensory produce of the mind as seeing is the sensory produce of the eyes for example) will make this simple law clear.

What you are describing there sounds more like visualizations as opposed to meditation.

But let me ask you a question regarding visualizing, WHO is observing the mind when it reacts to what is being seen by the mind?


When one cuts a finger, there is the sensation and the bleeding.
Suffering only enters the mind if one let's it. It is the mind reliving the pain it already experienced... ergo suffering..


I wasn't describing visualizations. When lights hit the eye, the mind experiences seeing. when the hand rest on a table the mind experiences feeling(touch), when certain particles contact receptors in the nose the mind experiences smell. When mind becomes aware of all these sensations it experiences thought.
No visualization there...




In many schools of thought it seems to me that Karma is some sort of equalizer causing one to experience good as a reward for past deeds or experiencing suffering as a punishment.
Those grander concepts are what I mean by imbuing Karma with these ideas.
It's not about punishment or reward. It is about simple causes and their effects.



If I die with some remorse or an unfulfilled desire.
Those will be the cause for a life that allows for the remorse to be let go and the desire to be fulfilled.
That is what is.



I will not experience that life even though one could say it is my karma being played out.

There is no fault, or reward or punishment there, Just the universe reacting on our intentions... As it does...

[Constance]

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[greybeard]

Ramana Maharshi was dying of cancer and when asked if he was in pain responded There is pain -- there was an awareness that pain was happening.
One translation of Nirvana is death. The me, the ego dies.
Regardless compassion remains.
Tims opening post sums it up for me.
https://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?43027-Enlightenment-A-direct-succinct-account-of-what-occurs...&p=456904&viewfull=1#post456904

[palehorse]

When you practice Anapanasati Bhavana (mindfulness with breathing in/out) there is no self (Anatta) there is no suffering (dukka) to disturb the mind, hence there is no gambling at all.

I see the modern studies of Buddhism (specially in the western) is giving a way too much focus on unnecessary things like wheel of kamma, instead of focus on meditation itself, when the answers already exist but no one is paying proper attention, without going any further into Buddhist cosmology which is packed with bizarre explanations of the Loka (worlds/realms of existence), we do not need to get there in order to practice mindfulness and that is all we need.

Not learning the true nature of the *āyatanas and the five **khandas, which is the root cause of dukka (suffering or even burden of life), is not knowing Buddhism at all. This is the only reality to be perceived according to the genuine Buddhist practices, which follow with Anatta once one properly mastered the āyatanas and khandas.

* 6 internal medias organs/gates: sight, sound, smell, taste, touch and mind/memory, there is also 6 external organs senses related.
** five aggregates, five material sense organs (eye, ear, nose, tongue and body), which resumes into our ordinary existence of living beings.

There is a few suttas (dialogues and discourses) where Buddha talks with layman and a group of layman about the samsara (wheel of life) and kamma and the words of explanation are clear and logical, there is nothing magic about that, basically it is not to harm or create suffer to yourself or another being (my word: the wheel has tooth and it bites back). Also I would look into paṭiccasamuppāda (dependent origination), it explains in details the correlations above.

I personally like the talks of Suan Mokhabalarama
https://www.suanmokkh.org/retreat_talks/142


https://i.imgur.com/ObJTFb4.png

I do not see Buddhism as a religion but a science of the mind even though we have temples and monks preaching Buddhism as a religion all around the world.

Here are some materials from the BIA (Buddhadasa Indapanno Archives) Buddhadasa personal notes, there is great books available what was written with materials from this Archive, some of them available for free, anyway all the materials in the Archives are freely available.
http://archives.bia.or.th/front-show_page_detail_using_pdfid.php?pdfid=3271 (The Wheel of life)
http://archives.bia.or.th/front-show_page_detail_using_pdfid.php?pdfid=3257 (Anapanasati Bhavana)
http://archives.bia.or.th/front-show_page_detail_using_pdfid.php?pdfid=3313 (paṭiccasamuppāda - dependent origination)
https://www.saraniya.com/books/meditation/Bhikkhu_Bodhi-Comprehensive_Manual_of_Abhidhamma.pdf (The full Theravadan philosophy and study of the workings of the mind)

[Lunesoleil]

As long as we realize that it is an illusion and that it is in the game of consciousness ...


Maya illusion (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maya_(religion)), it is our real world which is an illusion ...

[Catsquotl]

Just to clarify what you are saying here...You didn't mean the word meditation in the sense of using a method to instil stillness, emptiness, silence, solitude, inwardness and openness to the nature of life, you meant meditation as in "thoughts", "thinking"? I'll use this sentence as an example of what I mean. He was meditating on a better way to do things. Is that what you meant?




Just the universe reacting on our intentions... As it does...

This is entering into the area of Freewill. And this is another area of contention and confusion. Does it exist or not? :)


No to the first, I mean vipassana. To be specific the way it was thought by ajaan tong sirimangalo.


As for entering an area of freewill when the universe reacts to our intention..
I don't see or meant that connection.
Most of my intentions if you will are fueled by subconscious hangups and patterns.
I don't think most intentions are in the conscious awareness..

Say the intention to move when you need to pee or you just stubbed your toe again. Maybe there is some free will there, but I'd bet that the intention to move then is hardly in the realm of utilizing this free will thing.

[Catsquotl]

https://i.imgur.com/ObJTFb4.png



Yup nothing like catching yourself stomping angerly to and fro in the meditation hall over some perceived idea of wrongdoing the mind is making up at that moment.

[Catsquotl]

Here are some materials from the BIA (Buddhadasa Indapanno Archives) Buddhadasa personal notes, there is great books available what was written with materials from this Archive, some of them available for free, anyway all the materials in the Archives are freely available.
http://archives.bia.or.th/front-show_page_detail_using_pdfid.php?pdfid=3271 (The Wheel of life)
http://archives.bia.or.th/front-show_page_detail_using_pdfid.php?pdfid=3257 (Anapanasati Bhavana)
http://archives.bia.or.th/front-show_page_detail_using_pdfid.php?pdfid=3313 (paṭiccasamuppāda - dependent origination)


If I may add a pdf to this list?
https://www.saraniya.com/books/meditation/Bhikkhu_Bodhi-Comprehensive_Manual_of_Abhidhamma.pdf (The full Theravadan philosophy and study of the workings of the mind)

[Mark (Star Mariner)]

This is entering into the area of Freewill. And this is another area of contention and confusion. Does it exist or not? :)

Most definitely yes. But it is limited. I've written about this is many places, the summary is something along these lines:

We are intelligent, divine energy expressing itself in dense, material form in order to grow and evolve. We are consciousness, which in turn has an ego, which is basically the sum, expressing itself, of all our former experience (good and bad in our present life, and those past). We are consciously aware of our egos; it dictates what we think, judge, see and do in our daily lives. This in a nutshell is Duality. Duality is the right to choose either this way or that way. Fight or flight. Ignore or help. Forgive or avenge. That is Free will. The means to dictate our own path, to nurture either our spiritual character, or that ego, lies in our Free will.

Sorry if I chirped a bit too loudly in the earlier post, I end up somewhat railing against a lot of this new age philosophizing, and anything at all tinged with precepts and creeds, or the corpus of doctrines, including Buddhism, that requires an element of mental gymnastics to understand. All of which contains human baggage (distortion), and is entirely unnecessary. The answers, even ultimate answers, are already there, already within us, and they're very very simple. Most of which I summarized in this post here. (https://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?860-Enlightenment-and-related-matters.&p=1304772&viewfull=1#post1304772)

It may be right, it may be wrong. Everyone is free to decide, that's the beauty of free will. :happythumbsup:

[palehorse]

Here are some materials from the BIA (Buddhadasa Indapanno Archives) Buddhadasa personal notes, there is great books available what was written with materials from this Archive, some of them available for free, anyway all the materials in the Archives are freely available.
http://archives.bia.or.th/front-show_page_detail_using_pdfid.php?pdfid=3271 (The Wheel of life)
http://archives.bia.or.th/front-show_page_detail_using_pdfid.php?pdfid=3257 (Anapanasati Bhavana)
http://archives.bia.or.th/front-show_page_detail_using_pdfid.php?pdfid=3313 (paṭiccasamuppāda - dependent origination)


If I may add a pdf to this list?
https://www.saraniya.com/books/meditation/Bhikkhu_Bodhi-Comprehensive_Manual_of_Abhidhamma.pdf (The full Theravadan philosophy and study of the workings of the mind)


Yes Catsquotl, thanks :thumbsup:


I would like to add one more thing for the thread in general.
In Buddhism there is more than one practice: Anapanasati Bhavana, Satipaṭṭhāna, Samprajaña, Vipassana for example, but one doesn't need to become an expert in complex academic researches in order to meditate, one can practice Anapanasati (mindfulness of breathing) but also practice Satipaṭṭhāna (observing the senses) the practices are inter connected and it lead to Vipassana (insight into the true nature of all things, one will see that indeed everything are impermanent and not self(Anatta) and this is the true heart of Buddhism).
With time of practice one will learn to name some if not all of the factors.. it is just the natural process of learning something.

As a former Christian (Roman Catholic) I am satisfied with "Buddhist practice", I do not go deep into Buddhist cosmology, philosophy or religion (this one I did due to curiosity, but I am not a follower).

[Constance]

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[greybeard]

Thanks Constance
All persuasions welcome there.
Chris

[Constance]

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[greybeard]

The Universe brings everything about.
If you think that "God" does not know what you are going to do think again.
I make plans and "God" laughs.
Meditation, with out a goal brings the peace that passes all understanding.
Spiritual practise is helpful as while enlightenment is by Divine providence --the practise readies one for this.
The ego thinks it is going to be an enlightened ego Ha Ha.
Chris

[Constance]

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[Ernie Nemeth]

Yes, Chris.

That is what I experienced the first time around. I thought, 'Finally! It's my turn!'. I expected great things. I expected a say in how it would unfold. I was outraged when I was disabused of that notion. It took over ten years to get over what I saw as rejection, when I did not get what I wanted exactly as I wanted it.

This time around, well, I come with hat in hand, a lowly student with no expectations, not even to be accepted. Now, I merely commune and pray for forgiveness.

I've put on muscles only yoga can bestow. I am almost ready for advanced study now. But I continue to supplicate myself, give thanks after every asana, and ask for guidance and wisdom. I will not be a yogi, but I might become a better me, if I can keep my ego at bay.

So far it has been manageable. I pray it remains that way.


My prayer? (done after every pose so I do not loose focus)
'Lord Jesus Christ, pray for this sinner. Hare, Hare Krishna!' and then I picture the Buddha, without words...

[Constance]

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[Catsquotl]

Samsara, Karma & How To Escape
by Alisdair Forsythe


I’m going to jump right in the deep end and say it outright: the cycles don’t exist, at least not how you imagine them. It’s an illusion and always has been. There is no Samsara and no karma. That is what the Buddha knows and that is why they are unaffected. One cannot be affected by something that does not exist. What do I mean by this?


If this doesn’t ring with you, if it’s not fulfilling, then maybe ask yourself… when you imagined yourself escaping, did you really imagine being free… or did you just imagine yourself winning? Being greeted by the other Buddhas, given a medal and escorted off to a better place where there is only light and happiness? That’s not escaping anything, that’s winning the game. If so, then that is your trap. That’s not escaping, that’s just the desire to win roulette. You can get there if it’s what you really want; but my god — the fall will hurt! And in the end, you’ll be right back here where you started. Welcome home!



I didn't want to turn this into a treatise on Buddhism. The topic is how to transcend Samsara and Karma in a way that is relevant to where humanity is at now in the modern world. I appreciate that people want to share so if people want to continue posting regarding Buddhism, The Enlightenment and related matters thread (https://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?860-Enlightenment-and-related-matters.&highlight=enlightenment+thread) is the place for that. Thank you. :bowing: :heart:


It appears as ludicrous to me that you start by stating stuff the Buddha supposedly knew and then disregard what he actually said about it. Then disregard over 2500 years of study by people who actually practiced what the Buddha taught and what there findings were as being insignificant and belonging in a thread which has nothing to do with the questions asked in the OP.


It makes me wonder if you are really asking a question. What can a modern human being to to escape Samsara and Karma. Or if you are teaching by showing us where our thinking has gone wrong regarding the premises made..

[Lunesoleil]

I have a solution for Karma, it is to find the position of the asteroid which bears its name code 3811, I opened a discussion in the astrology forum HERE (https://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?113950-Karma-code-3811).
I wrote several articles on Karma the asteroid on my blog ...
:Avalon:

[Constance]

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[Constance]

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[Catsquotl]

potato potato.


I saw what you wrote to Star, but it still made me wonder..


Isn't being free from the illusion of samsara and karma exactly what the Buddha or any enlightened master is claiming to have discovered?
It's not about semantics...

Call it freedom, enlightenment, clear vision, breakthrough, katharsis, wisdom or anything that points to roughly the same result.



It's about living the experience of deep understanding and seeing through the BS yes?

Seeing and understanding what makes so called reality real and what are the ways we fool ourselves into thinking otherwise
Stating that something isn't so, does nothing for the experience of it. Some of the more modern mindfullness may help the modern human see that.
But then taking a deep dive into the workings of ones own mind, will revile so much more.. and even make some fundamental shifts in the perception of it all so that samsara and karma are no longer riddles to be solved, unseen or set aside as childish misconceptions. But as descriptions for fundamental ways the mind creates it's own prisons...






Thanks for clearing up what you wanted to discuss.

[Catsquotl]

Trying not to get hung up on Buddhism,
But in their basic concentration training, that is the anapanasati sutta based meditations.
There are 8 very well defined and reproducible states of consciousness to be experienced with fairly well defined characteristics.
Usually the first four are called by their number.
From the 5th though the are named after impressions of the experience itself.
5 being boundless space, 6 boundless consciousness, 7 nothingness and 8 neither perception nor yet non-perception.


Just based on these names we I think I see where Alastair Forsythe is getting his insight/experience from. Now whether he got his insight or arguments from doing formal practices or not is irrelevant.
What matters is that these mindstates are real and experience.


There's a few well defines nana's states when doing formal insight practises like Vipassana as well.
I realize that buddhism is a put off for some. That doesn't mean we cannot use experiences had and discovered by buddhist to contemplate these matters because it's also an older religion is it?
The wealth of information and knowledge is astounding. As are the ways one can get to these experiences for ones self.


As an example, say one meditates and finds himself in the realm of nothingness. Only upon leaving will he/she be able to think about what they just experienced.
When it is time to mingle back into life again. He/she has experienced that nothing truly exists. not karma, not samsara.. nothingness is a reality for him or her at a deep experiential level.


having to do groceries afterwards is the most wondrous experience of all. because the nothingness makes way for a new although very familiar somewhat boring and tedious chore.
kamma and samsara in my experience is nothing more than the tension between what one knows. (nothingness is an experiential reality) and finding ones mind wandering off during the grocery shopping afterwards..


kamma and samsara are nothing more elaborate that that, they don't exist, but we experience them every day in their simplest (and for me only form)due to the way our minds work.
if I do my shopping every other day, or weekly or less. my mind will discover the pattern and call it cyclical. My mind will contemplate the events and how I feel about them and when i forget the co-dependency between past experiences and impressions and current events I may even call it kamma.


With Love
Eelco

[Innocent Warrior]

Perhaps it would be more productive to have a dialogue on how to apply the realisation presented in the OP, rather than trying to force a discussion in a specific direction.

You could begin by addressing the replies that disagree with the OP as a starting point for polishing the OP, it could do with a polishing up and that would be a cohesive way to explore and then pinpoint or sharpen the focus of the desired discussion. A dialogue will allow a collaborative flow and provide an agreed upon starting point to begin exploring ways to apply the knowledge.

I see that we misapply knowledge, it’s used like a tool box to decide who is right, what is right, figure **** out, win arguments etc. May I suggest applying it differently. See it as a download that upgrades your awareness but then leave it at that and move forward perceiving what is in the moment with that knowledge incorporated into the awareness, and then move on to how to actually apply what’s been learned. We know that realisations expand our awareness but they don’t actually materialise until we act. As an example; seeing reality as illusory doesn’t automatically free us from our minds/thought.

But as I said, a collaboration is required here, otherwise individuals will wisely resist incorporating it into their awareness and the knowledge will remain misapplied.

There’s no need to shut down the thread, hence shut down participating members. Lighten up, explore, have some fun with it.

[Constance]

ffffffffffffffffffffffffff

[Catsquotl]

If people want to debate the truth of what was shared in the OP, it means that they are not open to it. If people cannot feel the inevitability of what was shared, it all just becomes a war of words and a clash of intellect.

I didn't share what I shared so that people could debate it or so that the message could be modified or diluted




Why didn't you say so in the first place? Could have saved us both a lot of time..
Your first statement is a bit much, even disrespectful, but it's a great reminder if I ever wonder if I should engage in conversation with you again..

[Constance]

ffffffffffffffffffffffffff

[Catsquotl]

Why didn't you say so in the first place?

It should all go without saying but as it turns out, I eventually did have to say something.



Your first statement is a bit much, even disrespectful, but it's a great reminder if I ever wonder if I should engage in conversation with you again..

If you felt it was disrespectful, you have misunderstood the spirit in which I am coming from.:flower:


It should go without saying that a rant by someone else about 2 big words in the spiritual community should be accepted as a lovely outpouring of your heart without any discernment or regard of 2500 years of research on a forum that thanks it's existence due to people exploring Truth ??
You kinda lost me there.


I do think I am getting a handle on the spirit from which you come.
I'm just not buying it.
As it stands disrespectful is an understatement.


But then it's probably my misunderstanding of the intent with which you shared it...

[greybeard]

Nasargadatta would ask visitors.
"What do you know about spirituality?"
He would normally get a long answer from the seeker, who no doubt was knowledgable.
Nasargadatta Maharaj would then say "Thats not it"

He would follow with statements on the futility of concepts.
He would explain that the seeker was the child of a barren woman --the unborn.
Conscious being eternal had no beginning no end.
In absolute reality (Truth) there is no Samsara -- no Karma
Every effort to transcend just gives weight to an illusion.
One without a second is the best description I have read.
Advaita Vedanta as in the link has answers to the questions posed on this thread.
But thats not it either.
It can only be experienced.
Enlightenment --freedom from ignorance is the only way to escape the notion one is bound, a prisoner of the concepts of Samsara and Karma.
Working on these will however improve life in the illusion (Maya)
Chris
https://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?108625-Advaita-Vedanta---The-Greatest-Philosophy-on-Earth--&p=1314602&viewfull=1#post1314602

[Bill Ryan]

Mod note from Bill:

Catsquotl (https://projectavalon.net/forum4/member.php?815-Catsquotl) has been blocked from this thread. (Enough already!)

:focus:

[Journeyman]

This is entering into the area of Freewill. And this is another area of contention and confusion. Does it exist or not? :)

Most definitely yes. But it is limited. I've written about this is many places, the summary is something along these lines:

We are intelligent, divine energy expressing itself in dense, material form in order to grow and evolve. We are consciousness, which in turn has an ego, which is basically the sum, expressing itself, of all our former experience (good and bad in our present life, and those past). We are consciously aware of our egos; it dictates what we think, judge, see and do in our daily lives. This in a nutshell is Duality. Duality is the right to choose either this way or that way. Fight or flight. Ignore or help. Forgive or avenge. That is Free will. The means to dictate our own path, to nurture either our spiritual character, or that ego, lies in our Free will.

Sorry if I chirped a bit too loudly in the earlier post, I end up somewhat railing against a lot of this new age philosophizing, and anything at all tinged with precepts and creeds, or the corpus of doctrines, including Buddhism, that requires an element of mental gymnastics to understand. All of which contains human baggage (distortion), and is entirely unnecessary. The answers, even ultimate answers, are already there, already within us, and they're very very simple. Most of which I summarized in this post here. (https://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?860-Enlightenment-and-related-matters.&p=1304772&viewfull=1#post1304772)

It may be right, it may be wrong. Everyone is free to decide, that's the beauty of free will. :happythumbsup:

Thank you for this and the previous post in this thread. I read the initial post and enjoyed the positive tone without really giving it much thought, but your critique was very useful as I wasn't fully on board with it but lacked the language or perspective to challenge it myself. I find myself agreeing with your stance, but thanks to @Constance also for posting this topic, it's got me thinking and challenging my assumptions which is why I've come here!

:clapping:

[Mashika]

Nasargadatta would ask visitors.
"What do you know about spirituality?"
He would normally get a long answer from the seeker, who no doubt was knowledgable.
Nasargadatta Maharaj would then say "Thats not it"

He would follow with statements on the futility of concepts.
He would explain that the seeker was the child of a barren woman --the unborn.
Conscious being eternal had no beginning no end.
In absolute reality (Truth) there is no Samsara -- no Karma
Every effort to transcend just gives weight to an illusion.
One without a second is the best description I have read.
Advaita Vedanta as in the link has answers to the questions posed on this thread.
But thats not it either.
It can only be experienced.
Enlightenment --freedom from ignorance is the only way to escape the notion one is bound, a prisoner of the concepts of Samsara and Karma.
Working on these will however improve life in the illusion (Maya)
Chris
https://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?108625-Advaita-Vedanta---The-Greatest-Philosophy-on-Earth--&p=1314602&viewfull=1#post1314602

Hi Sr, respectfully disagree with a couple of your notions here, i understand this may sound bad or harsh, and completely unreasonable, but please consider my words for a bit, or "bear with me for a while" before considering i'm wrong on what i'm expressing



Enlightenment --freedom from ignorance is the only way to escape the notion one is bound

This tends, to lead to ego, how do you know you are Enlightened? Someone said so? The person said so? Who defines what that place is, or when someone reaches it? What's the criteria? It's all in one self? If so, therefore "ego"



Working on these will however improve life in the illusion (Maya)

I remember talking to someone in Mexico about this, a chaman, some time ago, and when i asked about this, he only had this to say "ha ha ha ha, you are so dumb, then he whacked me on the head, once again (i get whacked so much..)" Do you understand why he whacked me?

I'm not quite sure yet, but i do understand, that trying to improve our experience here, while throwing away preparation for what follows next, is a fools errand, that one thing i did get.. :/

P.S: By the way his words were more on the side of insulting while laughing, saying "estas bien "p*ndeja hija" and then he invited me to eat with him before telling me to go away

"Ya vayase muchacha!" :handshake:

[greybeard]

Not my notions Masika I paraphrase what accepted "Masters" have said.
You might say accepted by who?
There is no one to accept anything -- thats the cosmic joke -- no seperate individual
Again I point to Tim --his finger pointing rings true to me.
https://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?43027-Enlightenment-A-direct-succinct-account-of-what-occurs...&p=456904&viewfull=1#post456904

We are discussing that which can not be spoken of.
Smiling
Chris

[Mashika]

Not my notions Masika I paraphrase what accepted "Masters" have said.
You might say accepted by who?
There is no one to accept anything -- thats the cosmic joke -- no seperate individual
Again I point to Tim --his finger pointing rings true to me.
https://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?43027-Enlightenment-A-direct-succinct-account-of-what-occurs...&p=456904&viewfull=1#post456904

We are discussing that which can not be spoken of.
Smiling
Chris

Old time Buddhist and Zen masters would say that something like:
"
if you find guide in someone else's words, you went wrong..
if you did not find guide in someone else's words, you went wrong
Why are you sitting on the floor?
"

:)

[Mark]

I remember talking to someone in Mexico about this, a chaman, some time ago, and when i asked about this, he only had this to say "ha ha ha ha, you are so dumb, then he whacked me on the head, once again (i get whacked so much..)" Do you understand why he whacked me?

Thank you for sharing your experience Mashika. It made me smile and recall this scene from the History channel series, Vikings. This particular video has a few scenes in it but the very first scene, with the monk laughing uproariously, is the relevant one.

UsGdG2uxS04

Who is the Buddha, indeed. What is enlightenment, indeed. If you understand the nature of the laughter and the situation of the Monk compared to that of Hvitserk in this video, juxtaposing your experience as a similar ontological situation, then perhaps something is there that is quite remarkable. 🐵🙉🙈

[Innocent Warrior]

Perhaps it would be more productive to have a dialogue on how to apply the realisation presented in the OP, rather than trying to force a discussion in a specific direction.

You could begin by addressing the replies that disagree with the OP as a starting point for polishing the OP, it could do with a polishing up and that would be a cohesive way to explore and then pinpoint or sharpen the focus of the desired discussion. A dialogue will allow a collaborative flow and provide an agreed upon starting point to begin exploring ways to apply the knowledge.

I see that we misapply knowledge, it’s used like a tool box to decide who is right, what is right, figure **** out, win arguments etc. May I suggest applying it differently. See it as a download that upgrades your awareness but then leave it at that and move forward perceiving what is in the moment with that knowledge incorporated into the awareness, and then move on to how to actually apply what’s been learned. We know that realisations expand our awareness but they don’t actually materialise until we act. As an example; seeing reality as illusory doesn’t automatically free us from our minds/thought.

But as I said, a collaboration is required here, otherwise individuals will wisely resist incorporating it into their awareness and the knowledge will remain misapplied.

There’s no need to shut down the thread, hence shut down participating members. Lighten up, explore, have some fun with it.

Thank you for your thoughts. :flower:

I'm willing to sacrifice up to the point of compromising my heart.

If people want to debate the truth of what was shared in the OP, it means that they are not open to it. If people cannot feel the inevitability of what was shared, it all just becomes a war of words and a clash of intellect.

It has been said to me that the degree to which we try to influence the world, is the degree to which the world will try to influence us.

We are not here to save or influence the world, we are here to be all that we can be and to experience and express that as a way of being in the world.

I didn't share what I shared so that people could debate it or so that the message could be modified or diluted, I shared it as an outpouring of my heart. The whole article from beginning to finish was like listening to a beautiful waterfall. It was perfect. I could see the liberation and the pure grace within it all. It was a lot of fun reading it because I could see the nature of life unfolding before me. It is from that point that I was sharing.


The meaning of life is to have fun and the purpose of life is to share in it all.

When we are serving each other in living the truth, this is where we can truly have fun and share in it all. Life is about being in a constant state of flow. When we are in a state of flow, we experience a state of forgetfulness.


Our effort is to maintain the effortlessness. If it is not effortless, I don't do it. This only feeds into and perpetuates the old paradigm.

I know exactly what you mean, I can appreciate that. :thumbsup:

In that case, maybe some sort of introduction like that in the OP would serve as a guide for the intended discussion and help avoid any frustration.

[Constance]

ffffffffffffffffffffffffff

[Javblanc]

Truly advanced Buddhist monks are not supposed to suffer anymore. After hard work of detachment from the world, through years and years of meditation, they have withdrawn to the depths of themselves, so that nothing affects them anymore. The pain does not reach them. Some yogis can sleep on nails or walk on hot coals with bare feet or remain naked in the snow without feeling cold... When they reached this degree of excellence in the path of Buddhist realization, they were no longer of this world and many retired to meditate on the mountain, in caves, and there they let themselves die of starvation. Some time later they were found sitting in the lotus position with a smile on their faces. In the West, some saints achieved a similar detachment. For example, the medieval Cathar heresy is said to be "Western Buddhism" because the 'parfaits' (the "perfect ones", the cathar initiates) followed a discipline of renouncing the world similar to that of the Buddhist monks. In that degree of perfection, when they believed their time to leave this world had come, they received the sacrament of consolamentum (a kind of extreme unction) and then retired to die in solitude. This ritual suicide by starvation was known as 'endura'. Of the Cathar 'parfaits' that were burned at the stake at the foot of Montsegur, it is said that their faces did not reflect any pain. By the way, in this Montsegur castle, the villagers of the region assured the historian René Nelli (at the beginning of the 20th century) that at night it was possible to see apparitions of monks walking through the ruins. The curious thing is that the description of these monks responded more to Buddhist monks with slanted eyes.