Om Mani Padme Hum

[Mashika]

I can not send vibes to anyone because that's basically not allowed (you must not interfere with other people's will and path, unless they themselves ask for it)

However, i can ask and hope people will bring the best of them out and above of everything that is hurting them bad, no matter what, and that they know we are alone all the time, if we want to be alone all the time. But when we join, we become more than anything that could possibly harm us, ever

I constantly go through very bad times, and frustration and lack of hope, but then i find my way out of that through very simple means that never, ever fail, here's one of them

オムマニペメフム
-CJ9gT4F_kY

You just are supposed to sit and meditate, then let it play in your head.. (don't use the actual song, play it in your head instead, by your own magic)

:flower::flower::waving:

[Gracy]

That's a sweet mantra.

[onevoice]

It is a very famous mantra for Buddhists, simple to recite and to maintain peaceful composure anytime.

[Mashika]

That's a sweet mantra.

Yes! :heart::flower:

I also love Ajeet Kaur on this 'Guru Ram Das' version
oGXgDxmWiiE

This one takes me away from the soul pain when my heart makes me feel infinite sadness and hopelessness, it's so beautiful, it always helps me out

:heart::heart::heart:

[TomKat]

It is a very famous mantra for Buddhists, simple to recite and to maintain peaceful composure anytime.

or, for Soka Gakkai Buddhists

nam myoho renge kyo

or, if you're John Lennon
jai guru deva ohm (Across the Universe)

[Mashika]

It is a very famous mantra for Buddhists, simple to recite and to maintain peaceful composure anytime.

or, for Soka Gakkai Buddhists

nam myoho renge kyo

or, if you're John Lennon
jai guru deva ohm (Across the Universe)

Synchronicity or whatever but i just posted a few songs by the Beatles on the Music thread :P LOL



ohm

By why the h, shouldn't it just be 'Om...'

[DeDukshyn]

I can not send vibes to anyone because that's basically not allowed (you must not interfere with other people's will and path, unless they themselves ask for it)



Bull**** ... that's like saying you can't talk to people in case they might get offended by what you have to say ...

[Mashika]

I can not send vibes to anyone because that's basically not allowed (you must not interfere with other people's will and path, unless they themselves ask for it)



Bull**** ... that's like saying you can't talk to people in case they might get offended by what you have to say ...

Not really, there's a giant difference,

For starters, you may want to look at what the concept of "suffering" means on Buddhism, and compare it to what it means in western culture.

It is not the same thing. I'm sorry to say this but you are looking at this starting from the wrong point of view

When you come back to me and explain what "suffering" means, from a buddhist point of view, i'll reply again. Until then, please respect my words, because i don't think you are understanding what i said back there

And if it takes 1, 2, 10 years for you to get it, so be it

Very respectfully

-

Masha

[DeDukshyn]

I can not send vibes to anyone because that's basically not allowed (you must not interfere with other people's will and path, unless they themselves ask for it)



Bull**** ... that's like saying you can't talk to people in case they might get offended by what you have to say ...

Not really, there's a giant difference,

For starters, you may want to look at what the concept of "suffering" means on Buddhism, and compare it to what it means in western culture.

It is not the same thing. I'm sorry to say this but you are looking at this starting from the wrong point of view

When you come back to me and explain what "suffering" means, from a buddhist point of view, i'll reply again. Until then, please respect my words, because i don't think you are understanding what i said back there

And if it takes 1, 2, 10 years for you to get it, so be it

Very respectfully

-

Masha

What others do has nothing to do with you ... you have full faculty to accept or reject anyone else's words (which are a crude form of vibrations), or their "vibrations" as given in any sense, and to deny that ability of yourself is to deny your own personal self, and power. If you want to believe that suffering is needed, what anyone else can say should never interfere with that, as you are the keyholder to that, not them.

Mike

[Mashika]

I can not send vibes to anyone because that's basically not allowed (you must not interfere with other people's will and path, unless they themselves ask for it)



Bull**** ... that's like saying you can't talk to people in case they might get offended by what you have to say ...

Not really, there's a giant difference,

For starters, you may want to look at what the concept of "suffering" means on Buddhism, and compare it to what it means in western culture.

It is not the same thing. I'm sorry to say this but you are looking at this starting from the wrong point of view

When you come back to me and explain what "suffering" means, from a buddhist point of view, i'll reply again. Until then, please respect my words, because i don't think you are understanding what i said back there

And if it takes 1, 2, 10 years for you to get it, so be it

Very respectfully

-

Masha

What others do has nothing to do with you ... you have full faculty to accept or reject anyone else's words (which are a crude form of vibrations), or their "vibrations" as given in any sense, and to deny that ability of yourself is to deny your own personal self, and power. If you want to believe that suffering is needed, what anyone else can say should never interfere with that, as you are the keyholder to that, not them.

Mike

So you did not take even 10 minutes to try to figure out what's the difference between the concept of "suffering" on the western world and the one on the eastern world

Got it

All you said is good for you, but meaningless otherwise, you still don't understood anything i said on that sentence

Like i said, spend a year or 10 understanding, that you need to unlearn all you understand so that you can understand the concepts i'm talking about. It is on your end, as i said, it is not allowed to intercept the path of someone else, for personal gain. Unless they ask, and you did not ask.

So it ends


Don't be angry with me, it doesn't affect you in any way, at all

I only have one question, which i never had an answer before.. Why do people pick up eastern culture concepts, but only partially and then try to figure them out from their western point of view and force the concept into their own previous learned views..

Instead of throwing it all out and learning from scratch so they can really understand what the eastern culture is all about? Why take a half step, every.single.time? There's a reason that when western people go join Buddhist schools on China and Japan, they are asked to first throw away all the 'think' they know, so they can start as kids, from scratch, without any previous misconceptions about anything...

It's like saying i like how fire looks like, and then touching it and saying "i like it but i did not like the touch or heat, so i'm going to put a tv screen that has fire on it so that it looks the same but doesn't heat or harm me anymore"

Yeah....

[DeDukshyn]

I can not send vibes to anyone because that's basically not allowed (you must not interfere with other people's will and path, unless they themselves ask for it)



Bull**** ... that's like saying you can't talk to people in case they might get offended by what you have to say ...

Not really, there's a giant difference,

For starters, you may want to look at what the concept of "suffering" means on Buddhism, and compare it to what it means in western culture.

It is not the same thing. I'm sorry to say this but you are looking at this starting from the wrong point of view

When you come back to me and explain what "suffering" means, from a buddhist point of view, i'll reply again. Until then, please respect my words, because i don't think you are understanding what i said back there

And if it takes 1, 2, 10 years for you to get it, so be it

Very respectfully

-

Masha

What others do has nothing to do with you ... you have full faculty to accept or reject anyone else's words (which are a crude form of vibrations), or their "vibrations" as given in any sense, and to deny that ability of yourself is to deny your own personal self, and power. If you want to believe that suffering is needed, what anyone else can say should never interfere with that, as you are the keyholder to that, not them.

Mike

So you did not take even 10 minutes to try to figure out what's the difference between the concept of "suffering" on the western world and the one on the eastern world

Got it

All you said is good for you, but meaningless otherwise, you still don't understood anything i said on that sentence

Like i said, spend a year or 10 understanding, that you need to unlearn all you understand so that you can understand the concepts i'm talking about. It is on your end, as i said, it is not allowed to intercept the path of someone else, for personal gain. Unless they ask, and you did not ask.

So it ends


Don't be angry with me, it doesn't affect you in any way, at all

I only have one question, which i never had an answer before.. Why do people pick up eastern culture concepts, but only partially and then try to figure them out from their western point of view and force the concept into their own previous learned views.. Instead of throwing it all out and learning from scratch so they can really understand what the eastern culture is all about? Why take a half step, every.single.time?

It's like saying i like how fire looks like, and then touching it and saying "i like it but i did not like the touch or heat, so i'm going to put a tv screen that has fire on it so that it looks the same but doesn't heat or harm me anymore"

Yeah....

I'm not a Buddhist.
I never tried to pick up eastern culture concepts at all, only my speak from my own experiences.
I'm certainly not angry with you, lol, intrigued maybe .... ;)
I have nothing against Buddhism and eastern teachings at all. Usually what I hear sounds great to me from one perspective.

I can see how this links to the other thread where I deny the need to feel suffering. The world is ****ty. But it doesn't mean suffering --- maybe a semantics issue as I arose that possibility with my conversation with Mike ... dunno; but maybe you could explain how suffering by definition differs vs the Buddhist definition, that may help.

Maybe I have too much of a progressive view vs a 2500 year old one ... ? Dunno ... again just speaking form my current experience and viewpoint. I mean no disrespect to Buddhists.

[Mashika]

I can not send vibes to anyone because that's basically not allowed (you must not interfere with other people's will and path, unless they themselves ask for it)



Bull**** ... that's like saying you can't talk to people in case they might get offended by what you have to say ...

Not really, there's a giant difference,

For starters, you may want to look at what the concept of "suffering" means on Buddhism, and compare it to what it means in western culture.

It is not the same thing. I'm sorry to say this but you are looking at this starting from the wrong point of view

When you come back to me and explain what "suffering" means, from a buddhist point of view, i'll reply again. Until then, please respect my words, because i don't think you are understanding what i said back there

And if it takes 1, 2, 10 years for you to get it, so be it

Very respectfully

-

Masha

What others do has nothing to do with you ... you have full faculty to accept or reject anyone else's words (which are a crude form of vibrations), or their "vibrations" as given in any sense, and to deny that ability of yourself is to deny your own personal self, and power. If you want to believe that suffering is needed, what anyone else can say should never interfere with that, as you are the keyholder to that, not them.

Mike

So you did not take even 10 minutes to try to figure out what's the difference between the concept of "suffering" on the western world and the one on the eastern world

Got it

All you said is good for you, but meaningless otherwise, you still don't understood anything i said on that sentence

Like i said, spend a year or 10 understanding, that you need to unlearn all you understand so that you can understand the concepts i'm talking about. It is on your end, as i said, it is not allowed to intercept the path of someone else, for personal gain. Unless they ask, and you did not ask.

So it ends


Don't be angry with me, it doesn't affect you in any way, at all

I only have one question, which i never had an answer before.. Why do people pick up eastern culture concepts, but only partially and then try to figure them out from their western point of view and force the concept into their own previous learned views.. Instead of throwing it all out and learning from scratch so they can really understand what the eastern culture is all about? Why take a half step, every.single.time?

It's like saying i like how fire looks like, and then touching it and saying "i like it but i did not like the touch or heat, so i'm going to put a tv screen that has fire on it so that it looks the same but doesn't heat or harm me anymore"

Yeah....

I'm not a Buddhist.
I never tried to pick up eastern culture concepts at all, only my speak from my own experiences.
I'm certainly not angry with you, lol, intrigued maybe .... ;)
I have nothing against Buddhism and eastern teachings at all. Usually what I hear sounds great to me from one perspective.

I can see how this links to the other thread where I deny the need to feel suffering. The world is ****ty. But it doesn't mean suffering --- maybe a semantics issue as I rose that possibility with my conversation with Mike ... dunno.

Maybe I have too much of a progressive view vs of a 2500 year old one ... ? Dunno ...



again just speaking form my current experience and viewpoint. I mean no disrespect to Buddhists.

So i asked to spend some time looking and learning about my viewpoint, before speaking up about what i was saying back there

Because i'm perfectly aware that when i say "suffering" or similar things, is not at all what western people understand by it, and that we live on very different worlds. I actually learned this on here. So please look more into it

I'm a Buddhist since i was born, i was raised one, along with also having to deal with being born with a Russian Orthodox mother, so i understand a lot of that stuff as well, but not like it at all

There's a giant different, as i said, between what thee concepts look at the surface, and the stuff that actually goes on, so i just wish that at least people spend a few minutes looking into it before replying with the usual point of view. It's frustrating, i spent years of my life trying to learn western culture, i hoped at least people who i talk to would spend 30 minutes reading on the web about what i say, so we can have a real conversation that is not "i don't know but.."

[DeDukshyn]

I can not send vibes to anyone because that's basically not allowed (you must not interfere with other people's will and path, unless they themselves ask for it)



Bull**** ... that's like saying you can't talk to people in case they might get offended by what you have to say ...

Not really, there's a giant difference,

For starters, you may want to look at what the concept of "suffering" means on Buddhism, and compare it to what it means in western culture.

It is not the same thing. I'm sorry to say this but you are looking at this starting from the wrong point of view

When you come back to me and explain what "suffering" means, from a buddhist point of view, i'll reply again. Until then, please respect my words, because i don't think you are understanding what i said back there

And if it takes 1, 2, 10 years for you to get it, so be it

Very respectfully

-

Masha

What others do has nothing to do with you ... you have full faculty to accept or reject anyone else's words (which are a crude form of vibrations), or their "vibrations" as given in any sense, and to deny that ability of yourself is to deny your own personal self, and power. If you want to believe that suffering is needed, what anyone else can say should never interfere with that, as you are the keyholder to that, not them.

Mike

So you did not take even 10 minutes to try to figure out what's the difference between the concept of "suffering" on the western world and the one on the eastern world

Got it

All you said is good for you, but meaningless otherwise, you still don't understood anything i said on that sentence

Like i said, spend a year or 10 understanding, that you need to unlearn all you understand so that you can understand the concepts i'm talking about. It is on your end, as i said, it is not allowed to intercept the path of someone else, for personal gain. Unless they ask, and you did not ask.

So it ends


Don't be angry with me, it doesn't affect you in any way, at all

I only have one question, which i never had an answer before.. Why do people pick up eastern culture concepts, but only partially and then try to figure them out from their western point of view and force the concept into their own previous learned views.. Instead of throwing it all out and learning from scratch so they can really understand what the eastern culture is all about? Why take a half step, every.single.time?

It's like saying i like how fire looks like, and then touching it and saying "i like it but i did not like the touch or heat, so i'm going to put a tv screen that has fire on it so that it looks the same but doesn't heat or harm me anymore"

Yeah....

I'm not a Buddhist.
I never tried to pick up eastern culture concepts at all, only my speak from my own experiences.
I'm certainly not angry with you, lol, intrigued maybe .... ;)
I have nothing against Buddhism and eastern teachings at all. Usually what I hear sounds great to me from one perspective.

I can see how this links to the other thread where I deny the need to feel suffering. The world is ****ty. But it doesn't mean suffering --- maybe a semantics issue as I rose that possibility with my conversation with Mike ... dunno.

Maybe I have too much of a progressive view vs of a 2500 year old one ... ? Dunno ...



again just speaking form my current experience and viewpoint. I mean no disrespect to Buddhists.

So i asked to spend some time looking and learning about my viewpoint, before speaking up about what i was saying back there

Because i'm perfectly aware that when i say "suffering" or similar things, is not at all what western people understand by it, and that we live on very different worlds. I actually learned this on here. So please look more into it

...

All that is cool, I just edited my post before you could post this to clarify that there is obviously a difference in understanding between a Buddhist definition of suffering and a western one, again I suggested that might be the case in the other thread, and I ask of you to explain that difference ... since most of us on this forum are not Buddhist, but more understand the "western" definition .. again it may be all semantics here.

[Mashika]

It breaks my will and hope, and frustrates me to no end, because see this

https://projectavalon.net/forum4/attachment.php?attachmentid=46350&d=1615619332

40+ million results, of that specific question.. in 62 milliseconds, not even a second

Anyways, i don't bother to read, here's the first result, maybe it's right, maybe not, who knows.

As most things, it's up to anyone to resolve that. I'm starting to believe that even if it was right, as long as it doesn't fit western views, it would be considered wrong, while the judges would still want to keep 'learning' about eastern culture, but not those pesky things that don't fit with their pre-conceived views

https://www.jstor.org/stable/27513021?seq=1

I'm starting to turn bitter lol

Oyasuminasai

[DeDukshyn]

Let me go first to perhaps get to the root this misunderstanding:

In the west, the definition of "suffering" is 100% subjective -- it means to interpret what happens in a way that causes emotional, and perhaps sometimes physical strife. But it is ultimately the experience of the experiencer, or victim. and not objectively the act itself. What causes one person suffering may be a matter of something to deal with or route, by another. 100% subjective, determined by the person who is feeling the "suffering" and for what reasoning their experiences and history may make it so.

That is the western definition of suffering.





Anyways, i don't bother to read, here's the first result, maybe it's right, maybe not, who knows.



Err ... I'd much rather get it from you, a Buddhist, than the internet, lol ... :)

Don't be bitter, I'm just being curious.

(I have derailed the thread, mods please feel free to bifurcate it as needed)

[Mike]

https://tricycle.org/beginners/buddhism/what-did-the-buddha-mean-by-suffering/

This is a good start maybe.

[DeDukshyn]

https://tricycle.org/beginners/buddhism/what-did-the-buddha-mean-by-suffering/

This is a good start maybe.

Seems pretty close to the western definition ... Am I some sort of weird anomaly, that looks at things in life that others see as tragedy and only see's "life's events" without a strong emotional reaction? Am I a psychopath? Is the alleviation of suffering requiring the psychopathic mindset? I dunno ... I don't think I'm a psychopath, I do have strong emotions, but I feel I do not "suffer" as is keeping to be explained to me ... did Jesus suffer? Not that I am Christian .. I am not ... just trying to figure all this out ...

I hope Mashika can give me perhaps a better definition of suffering that jibes with my experience? Or am I the freak here? (for the record I am ok with being the "freak" ... I just am navigating the world as I see it with the world as everyone else sees it, as that is what reality is made of - my reality and everyone else's reality = reality, no one's is better than any others)

[Mike]

https://tricycle.org/beginners/buddhism/what-did-the-buddha-mean-by-suffering/

This is a good start maybe.

Seems pretty close to the western definition ... Am I some sort of weird anomaly, that looks at things in life that others see as tragedy and only see's "life's events" without a strong emotional reaction? Am I a psychopath? Is the alleviate of suffering requiring the psychopathic mindset? I dunno ... I don't think I'm a psychopath, I do have strong emotions, but I feel I do not "suffer" as is keeping to be explained to me ... did Jesus suffer? Not tat I am Christian .. I am not ... just trying to figure all this out ...

I hope Mashika can give me perhaps a better definition of suffering that jibes with my experience? Or am I the freak here?



Either you're already a Buddha, or you're an unfeeling sociopath, or there's just a semantical disconnect here:). Pretty sure it's number 3. But just to be safe, it might be useful if you answer the following question: Have you ever experienced any emotional or physical distress in your life? If the answer is yes, then breathe easy Mr Spock, you're just like the rest of us. That's a form of suffering.

The Buddhist eightfold path is a discipline designed to help people achieve precisely what you're describing though: a state of mind that is completely reliant upon one's inner state, regardless of outward circumstances. I don't think you're there quite yet, but don't feel too bad - maybe only a handful of humans have ever achieved it.

"Dukkha" is kind of roughly translated into English as "suffering". There are 3 forms of dukkha.

1) The physical and mental anguish one inevitably experiences as we get older. Sickness, death, so forth.

2) The stress we feel from impermanence and change, failing to get what we want and losing what we hold dear

3) Existential suffering, the angst of being human, living a conditioned existence and the cycles of rebirth.

All forms of Dukkha, or suffering, are the result of craving or attachment.

That's a pretty bare bones intro.

[DeDukshyn]

https://tricycle.org/beginners/buddhism/what-did-the-buddha-mean-by-suffering/

This is a good start maybe.

Seems pretty close to the western definition ... Am I some sort of weird anomaly, that looks at things in life that others see as tragedy and only see's "life's events" without a strong emotional reaction? Am I a psychopath? Is the alleviate of suffering requiring the psychopathic mindset? I dunno ... I don't think I'm a psychopath, I do have strong emotions, but I feel I do not "suffer" as is keeping to be explained to me ... did Jesus suffer? Not tat I am Christian .. I am not ... just trying to figure all this out ...

I hope Mashika can give me perhaps a better definition of suffering that jibes with my experience? Or am I the freak here?



Either you're already a Buddha, or you're an unfeeling sociopath, or there's just a semantical disconnect here:). Pretty sure it's number 3. But just to be safe, it might be useful if you answer the following question: Have you ever experienced any emotional or physical distress in your life? If the answer is yes, then breathe easy Mr Spock, you're just like the rest of us. That's suffering.

The Buddhist eightfold path is a discipline designed to help people achieve precisely what you're describing though: a state of mind that is completely reliant upon one's inner state, regardless of outward circumstances. I don't think you're there quite yet, but don't feel too bad, maybe only a handful of humans have ever achieved it.

Dukkha is kind of roughly translated into English as suffering. There are 3 forms of dukkha.

1) The physical and mental anguish one inevitably experiences as we get older. Sickness, death, so forth.

2) The stress we feel from impermanence and change, failing to get what we want and losing what we hold dear

3) Existential suffering, the angst of being human, living a conditioned existence and the cycles of rebirth.

All forms of Dukkha, or suffering, are the result of craving or attachment.

That's a pretty bare bones intro.

So .. .what you are saying is that everyone has the ability to be Buddha, Buddha taught that everyone aspire to be this (as did Jesus) .. .but when I say it of my own experiences, I am wrong, because I am not Buddha (between here and the "other" thread).

I have little fear of death, little fear of age (kinda liking my silver coming into my beard). Death is as much a part of life as living - what is there to fear? Should I fear life? Is fear itself not the cause of suffering? Should we not all seek to alleviate fear? Does that journey not have a serious dead end when we refuse to give up that fear and suffering?

As I mentioned in the other thread, I used to perceive a lot of suffering ... but I rather look at it all now as just "stuff that happens". I still feel emotions about it, but suffering is not really one of those emotions any more. I would say my relationship with my emotions is in a better place than the one that is expected by our society. Do I miss the deceased? Yes. Do I remember them? Yes. Do I suffer their absence ... I choose to recall the joy and memories they brought me ... I would not call that suffering ... Dunno, might be a psychopath - but the fact I have and feel emotions makes me think I am not. How I interpret those emotions may be the differentiator here. Maybe that ultimately is what Jesus and Buddha were trying to get across? Not claiming to be any sort of enlightened being here ... Just a regular person who had strong emotions and worked hard at having a healthy, logical relationship with those emotions.

BTW I ask for this thread to be broken off -- I totally derailed it ... sorry bout that.

[Mashika]

https://tricycle.org/beginners/buddhism/what-did-the-buddha-mean-by-suffering/

This is a good start maybe.

Seems pretty close to the western definition ... Am I some sort of weird anomaly, that looks at things in life that others see as tragedy and only see's "life's events" without a strong emotional reaction? Am I a psychopath? Is the alleviate of suffering requiring the psychopathic mindset? I dunno ... I don't think I'm a psychopath, I do have strong emotions, but I feel I do not "suffer" as is keeping to be explained to me ... did Jesus suffer? Not tat I am Christian .. I am not ... just trying to figure all this out ...

I hope Mashika can give me perhaps a better definition of suffering that jibes with my experience? Or am I the freak here?



Either you're already a Buddha, or you're an unfeeling sociopath, or there's just a semantical disconnect here:). Pretty sure it's number 3. But just to be safe, it might be useful if you answer the following question: Have you ever experienced any emotional or physical distress in your life? If the answer is yes, then breathe easy Mr Spock, you're just like the rest of us. That's suffering.

The Buddhist eightfold path is a discipline designed to help people achieve precisely what you're describing though: a state of mind that is completely reliant upon one's inner state, regardless of outward circumstances. I don't think you're there quite yet, but don't feel too bad, maybe only a handful of humans have ever achieved it.

Dukkha is kind of roughly translated into English as suffering. There are 3 forms of dukkha.

1) The physical and mental anguish one inevitably experiences as we get older. Sickness, death, so forth.

2) The stress we feel from impermanence and change, failing to get what we want and losing what we hold dear

3) Existential suffering, the angst of being human, living a conditioned existence and the cycles of rebirth.

All forms of Dukkha, or suffering, are the result of craving or attachment.

That's a pretty bare bones intro.

So .. .what you are saying is that everyone has the ability to be Buddha, Buddha taught that everyone aspire to be this (as did Jesus) .. .but when I say it of my own experiences, I am wrong, because I am not Buddha (between here and the "other" thread).

I have little fear of death, little fear of age (kinda liking my silver coming into my beard). Death is as much a part of life as living - what is there to fear? Should I fear life? Is fear itself not the cause of suffering? Should we not all seek to alleviate fear? Does that journey not have a serious dead end when we refuse to give up that fear and suffering?

As I mentioned in the other thread, I used to perceive a lot of suffering ... but I rather look at it all now as just "stuff that happens". I still feel emotions about it, but suffering is not really one of those emotions any more. I would say my relationship with my emotions is in a better place than the one that is expected by our society. Do I miss the deceased? Yes. Do I remember them? Yes. Do I suffer their absence ... I choose to recall the joy and memories they brought me ... I would not call that suffering ... Dunno, might be a psychopath - but the fact I have and feel emotions makes me think I am not. How I interpret those emotions may be the differentiator here. Maybe that ultimately is what Jesus and Buddha were trying to get across? Not claiming to be any sort of enlightened being here ... Just a regular person who had strong emotions and worked hard at having a healthy, logical relationship with those emotions.

BTW I ask for this thread to be broken off -- I totally derailed it ... sorry bout that.

You don't understand that you don't understand

That's why i said it could take 1,2 or 10 years, or possibly you may one second before dead on you bed realize it and say "Oh!" and then you will be enlightened, or not

"Forget all you know, and look at the world as a just born child, then you can start the path"

Are you capable? Looking at what you said so far "words are meaningless, and forgettable"

So no

This grew old very soon, time to stop, this was about the mantra, not about this lack of understanding of something you continue to fight against, while still trying to claim as something you understand or are being part of

You are not, by your own will

[Mashika]

https://tricycle.org/beginners/buddhism/what-did-the-buddha-mean-by-suffering/

This is a good start maybe.

Seems pretty close to the western definition ... Am I some sort of weird anomaly, that looks at things in life that others see as tragedy and only see's "life's events" without a strong emotional reaction? Am I a psychopath? Is the alleviation of suffering requiring the psychopathic mindset? I dunno ... I don't think I'm a psychopath, I do have strong emotions, but I feel I do not "suffer" as is keeping to be explained to me ... did Jesus suffer? Not that I am Christian .. I am not ... just trying to figure all this out ...

I hope Mashika can give me perhaps a better definition of suffering that jibes with my experience? Or am I the freak here? (for the record I am ok with being the "freak" ... I just am navigating the world as I see it with the world as everyone else sees it, as that is what reality is made of - my reality and everyone else's reality = reality, no one's is better than any others)



I hope Mashika can give me perhaps a better definition of suffering that jibes with my experience? Or am I the freak here?

Yes i can, everything but what you have experienced so far

That's the exact point of it all, you were unable to see the world for what it is because you right now try to explain to me a culture/religion that came late into your life and you expect to know more than someone who was born and raised into it

Let me explain it other way. If you are 40 years old or whatever, and then comes someone who is 24 years old. And you just learned about eastern culture and found it cool and interesting and learned from whoever/books/movies and such, and then comes the 24 year old that grew on it and knows the raw version of it (without the nice things added so it's more attractive to westerners). Do you think you have more experience than the 24 year old, because you are older?

Do do think that maybe, since the 24 did not know or had to rebuild her mind to find out what the eastern culture means, has an advantage over you? Have you thrown away yet, all you assumed, or did you just picked up the latest version of the culture and re-interpreted it once more?

Think, please

This is a pointless argument.. like i said "You may be right, but.."

Sometimes, it does get very tiring when i get my own culture explained to me

I had already pointed to you, on other thread, about "suffering" and yet you skipped over my links and replied with a bunch of nonsense, and kept going, you did not took a look at the link i posted, and i know that because you kept ignoring and not addressing anything i said, yet you come again and try to impose a view about eastern culture concepts that you don't understand

Just don't

Spend a year, or 10, like already said several times, and then come back with real stuff, you just keep cycling over the same tired explanation that doesn't mean much if you don't accept that you have to throw away your pre-conceived notions. Like i said already way too many times

So, in the end

"It is your own path" and i can't change it.. "Unless you ask"

We went full cycle here, once again.............

ETA:Why do you have to keep fighting back? I asked you to look more into it, it takes months, years, decades, a life! To get to it, spend your time more wisely and do that, arguing with me here when you don't understand what Buddhism really is but still try to hold your views on it is ridiculous.

Spend.The.Time.Learning it already

Or not! It's up to you, no one is forcing you, but if you want to reference Buddhist concepts, please at least spend more time learning what it really means

What more is there to say?

We were not even about this, yes. I was just trying to express how i get around my bad days in hope other people would find a way out in the same way i do, and hopefully make them feel good, and now you are bringing the monster out, why?

[Mike]

Mike it's easy to have little fear of death when you're not dying. I've worked in hospitals. I've watched people die slow and painful deaths. It's not like the movies where they share a cry with loved ones after a labored and heroic speech.. "Live, live for me Johnny!"...as the fluttering eyes close to a lovely Enya soundtrack.

You won't be able to intellectualize your bedsores, or develop a subjective opinion of them that will stop you from crying out in pain.

You may be very good at controlling your emotions. I don't doubt it. Full marks to you. But what you're doing is stubbornly intellectualizing everything to the 1000th degree in order to make a point that is far from the one being made here. Think of it this way then: before you became this wondrous Buddha figure you are today, did you ever cry, suffer disappointments, brood, break a bone, entertain regrets, or get frustrated? Ever? As a boy even? Well that's all I'm talking about.

[Mashika]

https://tricycle.org/beginners/buddhism/what-did-the-buddha-mean-by-suffering/

This is a good start maybe.

Seems pretty close to the western definition ... Am I some sort of weird anomaly, that looks at things in life that others see as tragedy and only see's "life's events" without a strong emotional reaction? Am I a psychopath? Is the alleviation of suffering requiring the psychopathic mindset? I dunno ... I don't think I'm a psychopath, I do have strong emotions, but I feel I do not "suffer" as is keeping to be explained to me ... did Jesus suffer? Not that I am Christian .. I am not ... just trying to figure all this out ...

I hope Mashika can give me perhaps a better definition of suffering that jibes with my experience? Or am I the freak here? (for the record I am ok with being the "freak" ... I just am navigating the world as I see it with the world as everyone else sees it, as that is what reality is made of - my reality and everyone else's reality = reality, no one's is better than any others)

Just so you know

Every single time you fight back against what other people like me say, you get farther away from the truth you seem to wish to reach

But like i said "you don't understand that you don't understand"

I just wish that you would listen, instead of fighting back, because i could have lots of things to say, but i'm so tired of having the exact same conversation over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over.... and over non stop

Why can't people in the west just simply say "i don't know, what does this mean"? Regardless of who they are speaking to?

It would be so easy, and yet

[TomKat]

https://tricycle.org/beginners/buddhism/what-did-the-buddha-mean-by-suffering/

This is a good start maybe.

Seems pretty close to the western definition ... Am I some sort of weird anomaly, that looks at things in life that others see as tragedy and only see's "life's events" without a strong emotional reaction? Am I a psychopath? Is the alleviation of suffering requiring the psychopathic mindset? I dunno ... I don't think I'm a psychopath, I do have strong emotions, but I feel I do not "suffer" as is keeping to be explained to me ... did Jesus suffer? Not that I am Christian .. I am not ... just trying to figure all this out ...

I hope Mashika can give me perhaps a better definition of suffering that jibes with my experience? Or am I the freak here? (for the record I am ok with being the "freak" ... I just am navigating the world as I see it with the world as everyone else sees it, as that is what reality is made of - my reality and everyone else's reality = reality, no one's is better than any others)

Just so you know

Every single time you fight back against what other people like me say, you get farther away from the truth you seem to wish to reach

But like i said "you don't understand that you don't understand"

I just wish that you would listen, instead of fighting back, because i could have lots of things to say, but i'm so tired of having the exact same conversation over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over.... and over non stop

Why can't people in the west just simply say "i don't know, what does this mean"? Regardless of who they are speaking to?

It would be so easy, and yet

Everyone knows what "suffering" means and you won't avoid confusion if you keep using it differently. So how about using a different word for "Buddhist suffering" then? Along with a definition?

[Lunesoleil]

iG_lNuNUVd4
J'aime bien cette version

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Avec la conscience géométrique en plus

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Dans une forme originale

[onevoice]

https://tricycle.org/beginners/buddhism/what-did-the-buddha-mean-by-suffering/

This is a good start maybe.

Seems pretty close to the western definition ... Am I some sort of weird anomaly, that looks at things in life that others see as tragedy and only see's "life's events" without a strong emotional reaction? Am I a psychopath? Is the alleviation of suffering requiring the psychopathic mindset? I dunno ... I don't think I'm a psychopath, I do have strong emotions, but I feel I do not "suffer" as is keeping to be explained to me ... did Jesus suffer? Not that I am Christian .. I am not ... just trying to figure all this out ...

I hope Mashika can give me perhaps a better definition of suffering that jibes with my experience? Or am I the freak here? (for the record I am ok with being the "freak" ... I just am navigating the world as I see it with the world as everyone else sees it, as that is what reality is made of - my reality and everyone else's reality = reality, no one's is better than any others)

Just so you know

Every single time you fight back against what other people like me say, you get farther away from the truth you seem to wish to reach

But like i said "you don't understand that you don't understand"

I just wish that you would listen, instead of fighting back, because i could have lots of things to say, but i'm so tired of having the exact same conversation over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over.... and over non stop

Why can't people in the west just simply say "i don't know, what does this mean"? Regardless of who they are speaking to?

It would be so easy, and yet

Everyone knows what "suffering" means and you won't avoid confusion if you keep using it differently. So how about using a different word for "Buddhist suffering" then? Along with a definition?

Everyone in the world generally understands the mundane connotation of suffering. We have all experienced events that are unpleasant, so we would generally want to avoid these kinds of experiences. What sets the Buddhist definition of suffering apart from this mundane connotation is that in Buddhism, suffering is not only about every unpleasant experiences, it also includes every pleasant experiences. In short, every aspects of our existence until we are enlightened is suffering.

This aspect of the Buddhist definition of suffering -- inclusion of even pleasant experiences as suffering is what I believe Mashika is striving for the readers of this thread to come to grips with. The reason that pleasant experiences are considered suffering is that the pleasant experiences are only temporary (impermanent). So eventually they go away, so when they do, we crave or long for it to return. This craving or grasping for pleasant experience and repelling unpleasant experiences is the root cause of the suffering based on attachment to self (ego), or "I". As Mike pointed out (https://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?114295-Om-Mani-Padme-Hum&p=1415944&viewfull=1#post1415944), the Buddhist eightfold path (https://www.buddha101.com/p_path.htm) can be followed to overcome this suffering.

The Guatama Buddha first explained the suffering in his first sermon of the Four Noble Truth (https://thebuddhistcentre.com/text/four-noble-truths).

1. All existence is dukkha. The word dukkha has been variously translated as ‘suffering’, ‘anguish’, ‘pain’, or ‘unsatisfactoriness’. The Buddha’s insight was that our lives are a struggle, and we do not find ultimate happiness or satisfaction in anything we experience. This is the problem of existence.

2. The cause of dukkha is craving. The natural human tendency is to blame our difficulties on things outside ourselves. But the Buddha says that their actual root is to be found in the mind itself. In particular our tendency to grasp at things (or alternatively to push them away) places us fundamentally at odds with the way life really is.

3. The cessation of dukkha comes with the cessation of craving. As we are the ultimate cause of our difficulties, we are also the solution. We cannot change the things that happen to us, but we can change our responses.

4. There is a path that leads from dukkha. Although the Buddha throws responsibility back on to the individual he also taught methods through which we can change ourselves, for example the Noble Eightfold Path.

[DeDukshyn]

Mike it's easy to have little fear of death when you're not dying. I've worked in hospitals. I've watched people die slow and painful deaths. It's not like the movies where they share a cry with loved ones after a labored and heroic speech.. "Live, live for me Johnny!"...as the fluttering eyes close to a lovely Enya soundtrack.

You won't be able to intellectualize your bedsores, or develop a subjective opinion of them that will stop you from crying out in pain.

You may be very good at controlling your emotions. I don't doubt it. Full marks to you. But what you're doing is stubbornly intellectualizing everything to the 1000th degree in order to make a point that is far from the one being made here. Think of it this way then: before you became this wondrous Buddha figure you are today, did you ever cry, suffer disappointments, brood, break a bone, entertain regrets, or get frustrated? Ever? As a boy even? Well that's all I'm talking about.

It may be easier to not have a fear of death when I am not dying. But I don't have it now because I am not dying. That's my whole point -- you guys are telling me that I suffer and tat I need to suffer and maybe I need up to 10 years to learn to suffer - its a bit absurd to be honest. I don't think you guys know me at all.

I watched my father dying slowly of cancer over a year -- you act as though I must be someone who has never experienced anything in life and only have the hoolywwod version of life - nothing could be further from the truth, and I already told you that, but maybe it is you who can't possibly understand me so you keep having to make this assumptions and associations so that you can force me into your view.

Suffering is subjective - what is suffering to one person may not be for another, depending on your upbringing, perspective, religion, culture, etc. So how can there be a global consensus and who's suffering from what?

If you want to say that life is full of everything that causes people suffering, I will agree, but again, suffering is a subjective experience.

I don't think this as complicated as you seem to think it is.

EDIT: actually, let's go back to the Hollywood versions of things ... could it be that Disney, Hollywood, and media in general have amplified our responses to adversity, by showing us "how we're supposed to respond?" (tossing you example out the window)

The example you gave is not like how movies portray death for the most part. Movies, by their nature amplify the suffering caused from adversity to get that emotional reaction - that is the goal - to amplify that emotional reaction, to give you that emotional response. Especially in Disney products aimed at children - have to train them while they are young. Also the "news" and other media - all seeking to amplify your emotion response to get people to become addicted, and like and share, etc. Is this not true? Do marketing companies not seek to play on emotional reactions? The News? Hollywood? Almost everything?

Could it be then that we have become trained to have an over-emotional reaction to everything - which would maximize our experience of "suffering" by our "society"? That it has become "normalized"?

[DeDukshyn]

https://tricycle.org/beginners/buddhism/what-did-the-buddha-mean-by-suffering/

This is a good start maybe.

Seems pretty close to the western definition ... Am I some sort of weird anomaly, that looks at things in life that others see as tragedy and only see's "life's events" without a strong emotional reaction? Am I a psychopath? Is the alleviation of suffering requiring the psychopathic mindset? I dunno ... I don't think I'm a psychopath, I do have strong emotions, but I feel I do not "suffer" as is keeping to be explained to me ... did Jesus suffer? Not that I am Christian .. I am not ... just trying to figure all this out ...

I hope Mashika can give me perhaps a better definition of suffering that jibes with my experience? Or am I the freak here? (for the record I am ok with being the "freak" ... I just am navigating the world as I see it with the world as everyone else sees it, as that is what reality is made of - my reality and everyone else's reality = reality, no one's is better than any others)

Just so you know

Every single time you fight back against what other people like me say, you get farther away from the truth you seem to wish to reach

But like i said "you don't understand that you don't understand"

I just wish that you would listen, instead of fighting back, because i could have lots of things to say, but i'm so tired of having the exact same conversation over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over.... and over non stop

Why can't people in the west just simply say "i don't know, what does this mean"? Regardless of who they are speaking to?

It would be so easy, and yet

I'm just trying to say that suffering - they way people tend to suffer - isn't a requirement, it can be alleviated, you can have a healthy relationship with the adverse events in your life. Like I said to Mike, it's subjective. And you are trying to make me believe that this isn't so, and seem to be indicating that I am wrong for having alleviated it.

I am also just saying that there is a distinction between adversity and suffering, they are not the same thing. Once you have a healthy relationship with adversity, you no longer suffer as much, and therefore have alleviated it. I don't think it is complicated.

Perhaps you and Mike are lacking that distinction between adversity and suffering? If one lumps those two things together as a single thing, then I totally understand why this topic has created the conversation it has.

[Mike]

Hey Mike, you mentioned you had kids. What if, God forbid, one of them was paralyzed or killed in a car wreck - would you stop and decide what emotions are appropriate to perceive in the moment, or would you just be overcome with emotion? Would you subjectively decide how you should feel in that moment, or would you just instantly feel horror, sadness, worry, and so forth?

[DeDukshyn]

Hey Mike, you mentioned you had kids. What if, God forbid, one of them was paralyzed or killed in a car wreck - would you stop and decide what emotions are appropriate to perceive in the moment, or would you just be overcome with emotion? Would you subjectively decide how you should feel in that moment, or would you just instantly feel horror, sadness, worry, and so forth?

I never said I don't feel emotions, In fact I said earlier somewhere that I do feel rather strong emotion. But an emotion is distinct from suffering as is suffering from adversity. We have been conditioned to believe that that emotion is the definition of the words we use to, highly inadequately, describe them.

Emotions are extremely complex. I recall as a child, being able to "feel the day" - I could feel everything, the wind, the trees, the animals, my family - everything had this energetic imprint, and that was felt through the system we call the emotional system. I can't say whether you recall anything like this in your childhood, but I am sure I am not alone in recalling this. As we grow older we are taught there are only a few emotions: Happy, sad, anger, jealousy, etc. and that has the effect of rendering the extremely complex emotional system we are born with into some crude inaccurate format. Along with that we are conditioned that "when this happens, this is the one of those five emotions I am supposed to feel", ad infinitum, taught to us by the people around us but most notable the media as I mentioned earlier.

To address your question specifically ... I would feel emotion, if say, I lost a child (don't forget I watched my father die slowly of cancer, I'm not new to adversity). An emotional response has a natural time limit. When you are centered and grounded in the present moment, you feel the emotion for the present moment. It is in this present moment that you feel the complexities of your emotional system - it is the natural state of being - the naturals state of a human "being". The state that our "civilization" has "cultured" out of us.

Suffering, is when you move that emotional reaction outside of its natural place and project it into the future or drudge it up from the past. Our powerful memories can facilitate a life long suffering based on a memory of something that has happened long ago. Something that IS not happening. Likewise, we can project our emotional reactions onto something we imagine in the future - causing us fear and suffering that way. But receiving the emotion based on anything in the moment it is happening, even adversity, is not what I term suffering. That is adversity.

An emotion is not what you think it is (I'm assuming as I'd say this is true for 99.999% of people) ... people tend to link suffering to their emotional responses, but true suffering comes from the denial of truth, not from the experience of emotion. Denial of truth is the trigger. Not the emotion itself. The emotion is the result.

Emotion, adversity, and suffering are all distinct things.

Unless you are trying to tell me that adversity is emotion, emotion is suffering, and, I experience adversity, therefore I must suffer? I think maybe perhaps it is the condition of belief that this is so that has caused an undue amount of "suffering" in this world.

My main point is that there is an undue amount of suffering in this world (because of the denial of truth, and our propensity to avoid finding the peace of the present moment, and our poor relationship with our emotional systems) ... would you not agree? And would that not beg for alleviation in some manner? Even if that alleviation is as simple as learning to relax into a state of not denying the truth, relaxing into that peace?

[DeDukshyn]

Hey Mike, you mentioned you had kids. What if, God forbid, one of them was paralyzed or killed in a car wreck - would you stop and decide what emotions are appropriate to perceive in the moment, or would you just be overcome with emotion? Would you subjectively decide how you should feel in that moment, or would you just instantly feel horror, sadness, worry, and so forth?

Re-reading this ... I think I see something here that may be causing some of the misunderstanding ... you think that I "control" my emotions, and that is how I have alleviated my suffering. Not true. Learning to have a healthy relationship with emotions has nothing to do with control.

[Mike]

Emotion, adversity, and suffering may all be different things in the dictionary, but in the real world they often occur instantaneously. Example: you're climbing a mountain, you slip and fall, landing on a rock bluff 20 feet below, suffering a severely broken leg. You can intellectually tease out all the variables of emotion, adversity, and suffering while writing about it on a chat forum, but in the moment it all happens at once..in a split second.

And that's the point: often in life we're overwhelmed by an emotional or physical challenge in such a dramatic way that doesn't allow for subjective perception or intellectualization. It just happens, in an instant. Perhaps over time pain and suffering can be lessened, but not in the moment.

Some pain and suffering is subjective insomuch as people will react differently to different stressors. Fair enough. But still, people will react to stressors throughout life in ways which will cause discomfort, or suffering. Stressors and suffering are still an inevitability for everyone. And that's the universal or objective aspect to suffering you either can't or won't acknowledge.

If you doubt it, report back here immediately after you lose a loved one and let us know how you're subjectively feeling about it. And while you're at it, run head first into a wall and let us know how you subjectively feel about that too. What you either can't or won't acknowledge is the universality of suffering. I'm truly sorry to hear about your father, but surely at some point in that process you felt grief, sadness, or heartache. If you didn't then I can recommend a pretty good therapist. Yes, over time this type of suffering wanes - it wanes for everybody - but for it to wane it first has to exist.

[DeDukshyn]

Emotion, adversity, and suffering may all be different things in the dictionary, but in the real world they often occur instantaneously. Example: you're climbing a mountain, you slip and fall, landing on a rock bluff 20 feet below, suffering a severely broken leg. You can intellectually tease out all the variables of emotion, adversity, and suffering while writing about it on a chat forum, but in the moment it all happens at once..in a split second.

And that's the point: often in life we're overwhelmed by an emotional or physical challenge in such a dramatic way that doesn't allow for subjective perception or intellectualization. It just happens, in an instant. Perhaps over time pain and suffering can be lessened, but not in the moment.

Some pain and suffering is subjective insomuch as people will react differently to different stressors. Fair enough. But still, people will react to stressors throughout life in ways which will cause discomfort, or suffering. Stressors and suffering are still an inevitability for everyone. And that's the universal or objective aspect to suffering you either can't or won't acknowledge.

If you doubt it, report back here immediately after you lose a loved one and let us know how you're subjectively feeling about it. And while you're at it, run head first into a wall and let us know how you subjectively feel about that too. What you either can't or won't acknowledge is the universality of suffering. I'm truly sorry to hear about your father, but surely at some point in that process you felt grief, sadness, or heartache. If you didn't then I can recommend a pretty good therapist. Yes, over time this type of suffering wanes - it wanes for everybody - but for it to wane it first has to exist.

Have you ever seen a kid get hurt and then look to its parent and then mirror the "emotional reaction" of the parent? Whether the reaction was breaking down and crying, falling down in weakness, or having no reaction at all? I think most people with kids comes to realize this phenomenon to some extent. I think maybe you underestimate the conditioning influence on our behaviours by our "cultures".

I explained the definition of suffering and the distinctions between adversity and emotions in the previous post. Nothing you offer here deems further explanation. I never claimed that I don't feel physical pain, or won't have an emotional reaction if I lost a child, as I explained in the previous post ... you are trying to move the goalposts. I do though, have strategies to alleviate pain and suffering because I recognize that 90% of all suffering is undue and caused by our own interpretation and conditioning, as to how we believe we should react to adversity.

My argument isn't that suffering doesn't exist or that it is imaginary. It never was. My argument is that it can be alleviated because much of it is undue, and I have alleviated it to a large extent. As I mentioned before, I used to suffer a lot, but recognizing that it was not required, and caused not by the adversity itself, not by the emotion itself, but by the denial of truth, I was able to alleviate it. Does that sound ike some new age fantasy unicorn poo and fairy dust story?

[Mike]

Ok, fair enough Mike. We're finding some middle ground then. Alleviating suffering is perfectly reasonable. I think your 90% hypothesis is an exaggeration, but maybe that's for another thread, another time.

[DeDukshyn]

Ok, fair enough Mike. We're finding some middle ground then. Alleviating suffering is perfectly reasonable. I think your 90% hypothesis is an exaggeration, but maybe that's for another thread, another time.

I'll settle on an average of 75%. Variable by individual, and by specific definition of a specific type of "suffering". ;)

[Samson]

My daughter 8 months old hums second voice. Magic!
Humming hmm. My son almost 3, falls asleep on the mantras but the little lady hums louder and louder. Sliding along on another mantra.

[Mashika]

https://tricycle.org/beginners/buddhism/what-did-the-buddha-mean-by-suffering/

This is a good start maybe.

Seems pretty close to the western definition ... Am I some sort of weird anomaly, that looks at things in life that others see as tragedy and only see's "life's events" without a strong emotional reaction? Am I a psychopath? Is the alleviation of suffering requiring the psychopathic mindset? I dunno ... I don't think I'm a psychopath, I do have strong emotions, but I feel I do not "suffer" as is keeping to be explained to me ... did Jesus suffer? Not that I am Christian .. I am not ... just trying to figure all this out ...

I hope Mashika can give me perhaps a better definition of suffering that jibes with my experience? Or am I the freak here? (for the record I am ok with being the "freak" ... I just am navigating the world as I see it with the world as everyone else sees it, as that is what reality is made of - my reality and everyone else's reality = reality, no one's is better than any others)

Just so you know

Every single time you fight back against what other people like me say, you get farther away from the truth you seem to wish to reach

But like i said "you don't understand that you don't understand"

I just wish that you would listen, instead of fighting back, because i could have lots of things to say, but i'm so tired of having the exact same conversation over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over.... and over non stop

Why can't people in the west just simply say "i don't know, what does this mean"? Regardless of who they are speaking to?

It would be so easy, and yet

Everyone knows what "suffering" means and you won't avoid confusion if you keep using it differently. So how about using a different word for "Buddhist suffering" then? Along with a definition?

Sure, the word is 'Dukkha', and the actual concept goes beyond just "suffering" as in pain or hurt or something that causes me to feel unhappy. I don't think i'm going to be able to explain it correctly because it is learned without words, and written explanations always are missing the core of it

It's more like "general dissatisfaction",

Dukkha-dukkha
For when you get hurt, emotional or physical hurt, as you live, your body dies second by second, you sometimes can feel it over the short time, but always over the long term, you grow old and start seeing it and feeling the changes

Viparinama-dukkha
Like when you were enjoying something very much but it goes away or loses the property that made you enjoy it and you stop enjoying, it's 'suffering' too

Sankhara-dukkha
Like going to work, achieving what you meant to do, but having a feeling of dissatisfaction because it got done but you hoped to get it done in a different way. That's 'suffering' also, even if everything is ok in your day and life at that moment and there's nothing to complain about

Picking up an icecream cone and enjoying it and then going home thinking about how it tasted good but you must not have another one. That's 'suffering'

Going to the park one afternoon and having a great time, then going home and watching the sun go down and longing to be able to come back next week and have more memories and fun with your family.. That's 'suffering'

[DeDukshyn]

https://tricycle.org/beginners/buddhism/what-did-the-buddha-mean-by-suffering/

This is a good start maybe.

Seems pretty close to the western definition ... Am I some sort of weird anomaly, that looks at things in life that others see as tragedy and only see's "life's events" without a strong emotional reaction? Am I a psychopath? Is the alleviation of suffering requiring the psychopathic mindset? I dunno ... I don't think I'm a psychopath, I do have strong emotions, but I feel I do not "suffer" as is keeping to be explained to me ... did Jesus suffer? Not that I am Christian .. I am not ... just trying to figure all this out ...

I hope Mashika can give me perhaps a better definition of suffering that jibes with my experience? Or am I the freak here? (for the record I am ok with being the "freak" ... I just am navigating the world as I see it with the world as everyone else sees it, as that is what reality is made of - my reality and everyone else's reality = reality, no one's is better than any others)

Just so you know

Every single time you fight back against what other people like me say, you get farther away from the truth you seem to wish to reach

But like i said "you don't understand that you don't understand"

I just wish that you would listen, instead of fighting back, because i could have lots of things to say, but i'm so tired of having the exact same conversation over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over.... and over non stop

Why can't people in the west just simply say "i don't know, what does this mean"? Regardless of who they are speaking to?

It would be so easy, and yet

Everyone knows what "suffering" means and you won't avoid confusion if you keep using it differently. So how about using a different word for "Buddhist suffering" then? Along with a definition?

Sure, the word is 'Dukkha', and the actual concept goes beyond just "suffering" as in pain or hurt or something that causes me to feel unhappy. I don't think i'm going to be able to explain it correctly because it is learned without words, and written explanations always are missing the core of it

It's more like "general dissatisfaction",

Dukkha-dukkha
For when you get hurt, emotional or physical hurt, as you live, your body dies second by second, you sometimes can feel it over the short time, but always over the long term, you grow old and start seeing it and feeling the changes

Viparinama-dukkha
Like when you were enjoying something very much but it goes away or loses the property that made you enjoy it and you stop enjoying, it's 'suffering' too

Sankhara-dukkha
Like going to work, achieving what you meant to do, but having a feeling of dissatisfaction because it got done but you hoped to get it done in a different way. That's 'suffering' also, even if everything is ok in your day and life at that moment and there's nothing to complain about

Picking up an icecream cone and enjoying it and then going home thinking about how it tasted good but you must not have another one. That's 'suffering'

Going to the park one afternoon and having a great time, then going home and watching the sun go down and longing to be able to come back next week and have more memories and fun with your family.. That's 'suffering'

If I may ...

This makes sense. I would say though, that "suffering" is a potential result of these dukkhas - I believe there's a space between "how it occurs" and the "suffering that results" (perhpas there's a bit of semantics at play here) that one can potentially intercept if they so choose. You may not agree, or feel that it is "right" or "ok" to do so, and that's a valid point of view to have (just not how I see it), but perhaps that is a different matter and a different topic.

[Mashika]

https://tricycle.org/beginners/buddhism/what-did-the-buddha-mean-by-suffering/

This is a good start maybe.

Seems pretty close to the western definition ... Am I some sort of weird anomaly, that looks at things in life that others see as tragedy and only see's "life's events" without a strong emotional reaction? Am I a psychopath? Is the alleviation of suffering requiring the psychopathic mindset? I dunno ... I don't think I'm a psychopath, I do have strong emotions, but I feel I do not "suffer" as is keeping to be explained to me ... did Jesus suffer? Not that I am Christian .. I am not ... just trying to figure all this out ...

I hope Mashika can give me perhaps a better definition of suffering that jibes with my experience? Or am I the freak here? (for the record I am ok with being the "freak" ... I just am navigating the world as I see it with the world as everyone else sees it, as that is what reality is made of - my reality and everyone else's reality = reality, no one's is better than any others)

Just so you know

Every single time you fight back against what other people like me say, you get farther away from the truth you seem to wish to reach

But like i said "you don't understand that you don't understand"

I just wish that you would listen, instead of fighting back, because i could have lots of things to say, but i'm so tired of having the exact same conversation over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over.... and over non stop

Why can't people in the west just simply say "i don't know, what does this mean"? Regardless of who they are speaking to?

It would be so easy, and yet

Everyone knows what "suffering" means and you won't avoid confusion if you keep using it differently. So how about using a different word for "Buddhist suffering" then? Along with a definition?

Sure, the word is 'Dukkha', and the actual concept goes beyond just "suffering" as in pain or hurt or something that causes me to feel unhappy. I don't think i'm going to be able to explain it correctly because it is learned without words, and written explanations always are missing the core of it

It's more like "general dissatisfaction",

Dukkha-dukkha
For when you get hurt, emotional or physical hurt, as you live, your body dies second by second, you sometimes can feel it over the short time, but always over the long term, you grow old and start seeing it and feeling the changes

Viparinama-dukkha
Like when you were enjoying something very much but it goes away or loses the property that made you enjoy it and you stop enjoying, it's 'suffering' too

Sankhara-dukkha
Like going to work, achieving what you meant to do, but having a feeling of dissatisfaction because it got done but you hoped to get it done in a different way. That's 'suffering' also, even if everything is ok in your day and life at that moment and there's nothing to complain about

Picking up an icecream cone and enjoying it and then going home thinking about how it tasted good but you must not have another one. That's 'suffering'

Going to the park one afternoon and having a great time, then going home and watching the sun go down and longing to be able to come back next week and have more memories and fun with your family.. That's 'suffering'

If I may ...

This makes sense. I would say though, that "suffering" is a potential result of these dukkhas - I believe there's a space between "how it occurs" and the "suffering that results" (perhpas there's a bit of semantics at play here) that one can potentially intercept if they so choose. You may not agree, or feel that it is "right" or "ok" to do so, and that's a valid point of view to have (just not how I see it), but perhaps that is a different matter and a different topic.

Perhaps something I missed

To me, from my point of view, suffering doesn't happen inside life, life happens inside suffering, the act of existing and being aware of existence, is suffering

All the things happening in our lives happen within the suffering of existence. As opposed to we can feel things and sometimes things happen that make us suffer

That's why it means something different, in that buddhist context

[DeDukshyn]

https://tricycle.org/beginners/buddhism/what-did-the-buddha-mean-by-suffering/

This is a good start maybe.

Seems pretty close to the western definition ... Am I some sort of weird anomaly, that looks at things in life that others see as tragedy and only see's "life's events" without a strong emotional reaction? Am I a psychopath? Is the alleviation of suffering requiring the psychopathic mindset? I dunno ... I don't think I'm a psychopath, I do have strong emotions, but I feel I do not "suffer" as is keeping to be explained to me ... did Jesus suffer? Not that I am Christian .. I am not ... just trying to figure all this out ...

I hope Mashika can give me perhaps a better definition of suffering that jibes with my experience? Or am I the freak here? (for the record I am ok with being the "freak" ... I just am navigating the world as I see it with the world as everyone else sees it, as that is what reality is made of - my reality and everyone else's reality = reality, no one's is better than any others)

Just so you know

Every single time you fight back against what other people like me say, you get farther away from the truth you seem to wish to reach

But like i said "you don't understand that you don't understand"

I just wish that you would listen, instead of fighting back, because i could have lots of things to say, but i'm so tired of having the exact same conversation over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over.... and over non stop

Why can't people in the west just simply say "i don't know, what does this mean"? Regardless of who they are speaking to?

It would be so easy, and yet

Everyone knows what "suffering" means and you won't avoid confusion if you keep using it differently. So how about using a different word for "Buddhist suffering" then? Along with a definition?

Sure, the word is 'Dukkha', and the actual concept goes beyond just "suffering" as in pain or hurt or something that causes me to feel unhappy. I don't think i'm going to be able to explain it correctly because it is learned without words, and written explanations always are missing the core of it

It's more like "general dissatisfaction",

Dukkha-dukkha
For when you get hurt, emotional or physical hurt, as you live, your body dies second by second, you sometimes can feel it over the short time, but always over the long term, you grow old and start seeing it and feeling the changes

Viparinama-dukkha
Like when you were enjoying something very much but it goes away or loses the property that made you enjoy it and you stop enjoying, it's 'suffering' too

Sankhara-dukkha
Like going to work, achieving what you meant to do, but having a feeling of dissatisfaction because it got done but you hoped to get it done in a different way. That's 'suffering' also, even if everything is ok in your day and life at that moment and there's nothing to complain about

Picking up an icecream cone and enjoying it and then going home thinking about how it tasted good but you must not have another one. That's 'suffering'

Going to the park one afternoon and having a great time, then going home and watching the sun go down and longing to be able to come back next week and have more memories and fun with your family.. That's 'suffering'

If I may ...

This makes sense. I would say though, that "suffering" is a potential result of these dukkhas - I believe there's a space between "how it occurs" and the "suffering that results" (perhpas there's a bit of semantics at play here) that one can potentially intercept if they so choose. You may not agree, or feel that it is "right" or "ok" to do so, and that's a valid point of view to have (just not how I see it), but perhaps that is a different matter and a different topic.

Perhaps something I missed

To me, from my point of view, suffering doesn't happen inside life, life happens inside suffering, the act of existing and being aware of existence, is suffering

All the things happening in our lives happen within the suffering of existence. As opposed to we can feel things and sometimes things happen that make us suffer

That's why it means something different, in that buddhist context

Got it, but I just think there's a bit more distinction to be had, and thus the slight differing of the picture we are each painting here. I feel if you dissect it down further, there is more details to be found, and these details can bring a different type of picture or understanding. That probably sums up the differentiating viewpoints. :)

[Arcturian108]

As a Teacher of Transcendental Meditation for the past 45 years, I clearly remember Maharishi Mahesh Yogi instructing the Teachers that the mantra 'om' should not be used by women unless they wish to be celibate, and live the life of a nun. The mantra 'om' according to the Hindu tradition will induce celibacy, and if one doesn't know this can result in all kinds of chaos and misery in the life of a householder. I recently was reminded of this in a book titled Roots of TM by Paul Mason. (discussed on page 102)

[Mashika]

As a Teacher of Transcendental Meditation for the past 45 years, I clearly remember Maharishi Mahesh Yogi instructing the Teachers that the mantra 'om' should not be used by women unless they wish to be celibate, and live the life of a nun. The mantra 'om' according to the Hindu tradition will induce celibacy, and if one doesn't know this can result in all kinds of chaos and misery in the life of a householder. I recently was reminded of this in a book titled Roots of TM by Paul Mason. (discussed on page 102)

That's why I'm no householder :)

Cultural specific religious views? Not something i would follow, I build my own path

[Mashika]

https://tricycle.org/beginners/buddhism/what-did-the-buddha-mean-by-suffering/

This is a good start maybe.

Seems pretty close to the western definition ... Am I some sort of weird anomaly, that looks at things in life that others see as tragedy and only see's "life's events" without a strong emotional reaction? Am I a psychopath? Is the alleviation of suffering requiring the psychopathic mindset? I dunno ... I don't think I'm a psychopath, I do have strong emotions, but I feel I do not "suffer" as is keeping to be explained to me ... did Jesus suffer? Not that I am Christian .. I am not ... just trying to figure all this out ...

I hope Mashika can give me perhaps a better definition of suffering that jibes with my experience? Or am I the freak here? (for the record I am ok with being the "freak" ... I just am navigating the world as I see it with the world as everyone else sees it, as that is what reality is made of - my reality and everyone else's reality = reality, no one's is better than any others)

Just so you know

Every single time you fight back against what other people like me say, you get farther away from the truth you seem to wish to reach

But like i said "you don't understand that you don't understand"

I just wish that you would listen, instead of fighting back, because i could have lots of things to say, but i'm so tired of having the exact same conversation over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over.... and over non stop

Why can't people in the west just simply say "i don't know, what does this mean"? Regardless of who they are speaking to?

It would be so easy, and yet

Everyone knows what "suffering" means and you won't avoid confusion if you keep using it differently. So how about using a different word for "Buddhist suffering" then? Along with a definition?

Sure, the word is 'Dukkha', and the actual concept goes beyond just "suffering" as in pain or hurt or something that causes me to feel unhappy. I don't think i'm going to be able to explain it correctly because it is learned without words, and written explanations always are missing the core of it

It's more like "general dissatisfaction",

Dukkha-dukkha
For when you get hurt, emotional or physical hurt, as you live, your body dies second by second, you sometimes can feel it over the short time, but always over the long term, you grow old and start seeing it and feeling the changes

Viparinama-dukkha
Like when you were enjoying something very much but it goes away or loses the property that made you enjoy it and you stop enjoying, it's 'suffering' too

Sankhara-dukkha
Like going to work, achieving what you meant to do, but having a feeling of dissatisfaction because it got done but you hoped to get it done in a different way. That's 'suffering' also, even if everything is ok in your day and life at that moment and there's nothing to complain about

Picking up an icecream cone and enjoying it and then going home thinking about how it tasted good but you must not have another one. That's 'suffering'

Going to the park one afternoon and having a great time, then going home and watching the sun go down and longing to be able to come back next week and have more memories and fun with your family.. That's 'suffering'

If I may ...

This makes sense. I would say though, that "suffering" is a potential result of these dukkhas - I believe there's a space between "how it occurs" and the "suffering that results" (perhpas there's a bit of semantics at play here) that one can potentially intercept if they so choose. You may not agree, or feel that it is "right" or "ok" to do so, and that's a valid point of view to have (just not how I see it), but perhaps that is a different matter and a different topic.

Perhaps something I missed

To me, from my point of view, suffering doesn't happen inside life, life happens inside suffering, the act of existing and being aware of existence, is suffering

All the things happening in our lives happen within the suffering of existence. As opposed to we can feel things and sometimes things happen that make us suffer

That's why it means something different, in that buddhist context

Got it, but I just think there's a bit more distinction to be had, and thus the slight differing of the picture we are each painting here. I feel if you dissect it down further, there is more details to be found, and these details can bring a different type of picture or understanding. That probably sums up the differentiating viewpoints. :)

Yes, that's why I said that it could take years, and that if someone picks up eastern concepts they need to look deep and not try to reinterpret them so they match notions of western world.

The trip from zero to understanding some aspects of eastern culture can take decades, or entire life, so if taken seriously, time must be spent on it before being able to use references to it.

It has to be natural, being born into this causes a very different view of life and reality, than learning it later on in life. So teachers ask, forget all you know and start from scratch, as a new born baby. So that the mind doesn't try to mash (no pune intended lol) two cultures that sometimes conflict on their concepts or view points

[Strat]

Sometimes, it does get very tiring when i get my own culture explained to me

You should try on my shoes some day.

[Lunesoleil]

As a Teacher of Transcendental Meditation for the past 45 years, I clearly remember Maharishi Mahesh Yogi instructing the Teachers that the mantra 'om' should not be used by women unless they wish to be celibate, and live the life of a nun. The mantra 'om' according to the Hindu tradition will induce celibacy, and if one doesn't know this can result in all kinds of chaos and misery in the life of a householder. I recently was reminded of this in a book titled Roots of TM by Paul Mason. (discussed on page 102)

e14KCkQqlAY
Merci pour la découverte 🙏
V8z-wjC-hUY

jNrYocVNzBQ

[TomKat]

As a Teacher of Transcendental Meditation for the past 45 years, I clearly remember Maharishi Mahesh Yogi instructing the Teachers that the mantra 'om' should not be used by women unless they wish to be celibate, and live the life of a nun. The mantra 'om' according to the Hindu tradition will induce celibacy, and if one doesn't know this can result in all kinds of chaos and misery in the life of a householder. I recently was reminded of this in a book titled Roots of TM by Paul Mason. (discussed on page 102)

I wonder if chanting OM as a form of birth control is the cause of the over population in India? And why aren't they practising "yogic flying" instead of getting in traffic jams? Seriously, Maharishi Mahesh Yogi is the biggest comedian India has every produced. Well, not that great, because you're not supposed to laugh at your own jokes, and he always giggled at the end of each piece of BS he spouted to his followers.

Woah! that was a close one! Almost got hit by a flying TMer! :-)

[Lunesoleil]

Well, not that great, because you're not supposed to laugh at your own jokes, and he was always giggling at the end of every bit of BS he threw at his followers.


thank you for the clarification of information.

And why shouldn't laughter be a quality in this situation?

There are two date of birth :
January 12, 1917 (astrotheme)
January 12, 2018 (astrodienst)

Many Satunians practice humor, so laughter as an instrument of diversion and enemies of a perhaps deeply pessimistic nature?

[palehorse]

What I am about to write may seem a little of topic, but it is not, please read..

Muay Thai, Muay Chaiya, Muay Boran and other styles of Muay share one same thing, they all have mantras, they call it in Thai as "Katas" (not to be confused with kata of karate) which is nothing more than a "prayer" in the real sense of it, the name originated from Sanskrit, it is part of the martial art training, you can't just ignore it, there is no other way around, anyone interested in these martial arts will have to learn and practice all this things that comes with it, even if one do not believe anything about prayer or mantras. Now compare it with combat sports like UFC show on TeeVee that someone knocks the opponent down and receive a nice shining belt in return, it is a huge lack of respect (cage, ring seriously?), and yes it include Muay Thai and traditional Boxing and all the attraction they created around cock fighters for profit, martial art is a way more than that, it is life commitment, for those who are really serious about the art, the rest is just the rest, pure distraction for the masses. (sorry for the rant).

Mantras (Katas) are part of the daily training of serious martial artists (ask anyone seriously committed), one thing does not exist without the other, obviously I am not talking about any gym on the corner offering muay thai training or any sort of fight club... ;P

Breaking down what it is about and I can speak based only in my direct experience with it, mantras in general, in a few words it is an invocation based "mostly" on Buddhism psalms (yeah! there is what is called black magic, and it has nothing at all to do with Buddhism), it is power energetically directed in order to achieve some specific result, that's how mantras and magic spells work in general lines (but it is more complex than that).

By the way Muay Boran was forbidden in Thailand during many years, because the nature of the martial art, it is a powerful weapon that once one master the movements (the perfect manipulation and control of the flow of the body energy), it is possible to kill someone with a finger! Many of these movements in the martial art still forbidden nowadays and the government support and approve only the Thai Boxing mostly known as "Muay Thai" or "Thai Boxing" that is presented in stadiums and TeeVee.

I trained Muay Chaiya for 1 year and few months, the master was over 70 years old and he had no one except one American student that will or will not pass his knowledge along, he is or was a simple man with martial art knowledge, I believe he passed away years ago because his training center (his house) was closed last time I went there and nobody could tell me what happened to him, it is not easy to find a fully competent master to teach these martial arts today and they are pretty much overlooked, I was luck I could learned a few things, include some Katas with him.

If anyone here are into mantras, have sure you learned what it is about, before reciting, before using your vital energy, it has power and things happen for real not today but maybe later, old saying beware of what you are asking for, it may become your reality, I do not listen to mantras before study carefully what it is all about and then learn how to properly invoke with guidance if necessary. I am not saying that anyone should have a master or be your own master, I am saying by a fact of matter that we can not learn everything on our own, there is people with specific knowledge doing it their entire life, some are out there willing to pass down the knowledge if we are committed with our heart and mind to receive it.

What I see today is the popularization of many ancient arts being completely distorted and vulgarized in a way beyond my comprehension. I do not follow the trend line, I may be getting old :)

[Lunesoleil]

If anyone here are into mantras, have sure you learned what it is about, before reciting, before using your vital energy, it has power and things happen for real not today but maybe later, old saying beware of what you are asking for, it may become your reality, I do not listen to mantras before study carefully what it is all about and then learn how to properly invoke with guidance if necessary. I am not saying that anyone should have a master or be your own master, I am saying by a fact of matter that we can not learn everything on our own, there is people with specific knowledge doing it their entire life, some are out there willing to pass down the knowledge if we are committed with our heart and mind to receive it.


Thank you for the feedback, I was a time I loved listening to mantras, it did me a lot of good.
I am willing to believe that mantras are powerful vibrational energies, which is why mantras can bring great comfort. I can understand that mantras are like magic formulas and that some mantras are more beneficial and others more oriented towards a situation of life detached from the material or the physical, it is besides their function?

DjbodQeOFog

[TomKat]

Well, not that great, because you're not supposed to laugh at your own jokes, and he was always giggling at the end of every bit of BS he threw at his followers.


thank you for the clarification of information.

And why shouldn't laughter be a quality in this situation?

There are two date of birth :
January 12, 1917 (astrotheme)
January 12, 2018 (astrodienst)

Many Satunians practice humor, so laughter as an instrument of diversion and enemies of a perhaps deeply pessimistic nature?

I have no idea what you're talking about. Did it get lost in translation?

[palehorse]

If anyone here are into mantras, have sure you learned what it is about, before reciting, before using your vital energy, it has power and things happen for real not today but maybe later, old saying beware of what you are asking for, it may become your reality, I do not listen to mantras before study carefully what it is all about and then learn how to properly invoke with guidance if necessary. I am not saying that anyone should have a master or be your own master, I am saying by a fact of matter that we can not learn everything on our own, there is people with specific knowledge doing it their entire life, some are out there willing to pass down the knowledge if we are committed with our heart and mind to receive it.


Thank you for the feedback, I was a time I loved listening to mantras, it did me a lot of good.
I am willing to believe that mantras are powerful vibrational energies, which is why mantras can bring great comfort. I can understand that mantras are like magic formulas and that some mantras are more beneficial and others more oriented towards a situation of life detached from the material or the physical, it is besides their function?

DjbodQeOFog


A mantra can be used for many diverse situation including sorcery, animism and necromancy.

Here are two different katas, they are very popular and they both has variations.

Kata Bucha Pra Upakut (Pra Bua Khem - Monk Lotus Head) - In accordance with the Buddhist cosmology he lives in the bottom of the ocean until the end of human suffering. This Kata is the traditional, there is variations of it for different purposes, it is Burmese.
ABAiVsFfa14

Another Kata used by ancient Thai warriors (Kata Pongan Pai) - recited before going into a physical fight.
AFNbDwNhLxg


Note that the number of katas or mantras (including all variations) available is so insanely huge that one could write several books of the size of the bible, imagine each verse of the Tripitaka could possibly become a mantra if it has enough meaning on it for what is desired to achieve, that's why mantras can also be created by anyone with deep understandings not only in Buddhism but also in ancient traditions that date before Buddhist era.

I prefer to listen to mantras in their natural form, or even better recite it, feeling the vibration that goes through the vocal cords to the navel and spread to the whole body, the correct intonation of ones voice is a major role in order to the mantra work or fail, when any other background sound is mixed the chances it will fail is great, monks when reciting mantras or even chanting they are in a very quiet environment, that's why it is not allowed to talk inside temples, it can and will disturb the work.

Be in a quiet place and avoid those mantras with music in the background, those mantras are only variations of the traditional ones, I know only voice can be boring, but once you understand the meaning of each word, it becomes quite a different thing. Mantras are a very fragile thing.

[Mashika]

If anyone here are into mantras, have sure you learned what it is about, before reciting, before using your vital energy, it has power and things happen for real not today but maybe later, old saying beware of what you are asking for, it may become your reality, I do not listen to mantras before study carefully what it is all about and then learn how to properly invoke with guidance if necessary. I am not saying that anyone should have a master or be your own master, I am saying by a fact of matter that we can not learn everything on our own, there is people with specific knowledge doing it their entire life, some are out there willing to pass down the knowledge if we are committed with our heart and mind to receive it.


Thank you for the feedback, I was a time I loved listening to mantras, it did me a lot of good.
I am willing to believe that mantras are powerful vibrational energies, which is why mantras can bring great comfort. I can understand that mantras are like magic formulas and that some mantras are more beneficial and others more oriented towards a situation of life detached from the material or the physical, it is besides their function?

DjbodQeOFog


A mantra can be used for many diverse situation including sorcery, animism and necromancy.

Here are two different katas, they are very popular and they both has variations.

Kata Bucha Pra Upakut (Pra Bua Khem - Monk Lotus Head) - In accordance with the Buddhist cosmology he lives in the bottom of the ocean until the end of human suffering. This Kata is the traditional, there is variations of it for different purposes, it is Burmese.
ABAiVsFfa14

Another Kata used by ancient Thai warriors (Kata Pongan Pai) - recited before going into a physical fight.
AFNbDwNhLxg


Note that the number of katas or mantras (including all variations) available is so insanely huge that one could write several books of the size of the bible, imagine each verse of the Tripitaka could possibly become a mantra if it has enough meaning on it for what is desired to achieve, that's why mantras can also be created by anyone with deep understandings not only in Buddhism but also in ancient traditions that date before Buddhist era.

I prefer to listen to mantras in their natural form, or even better recite it, feeling the vibration that goes through the vocal cords to the navel and spread to the whole body, the correct intonation of ones voice is a major role in order to the mantra work or fail, when any other background sound is mixed the chances it will fail is great, monks when reciting mantras or even chanting they are in a very quiet environment, that's why it is not allowed to talk inside temples, it can and will disturb the work.

Be in a quiet place and avoid those mantras with music in the background, those mantras are only variations of the traditional ones, I know only voice can be boring, but once you understand the meaning of each word, it becomes quite a different thing. Mantras are a very fragile thing.

I always found that listening to them was of not much use, specially the ones with music (with just a few cases working for me)

Instead, I play them in my head then hum them until I can feel the vibrations and I get very cool experiences out of them at that point

[Ankle Biter]

This one I learned in China around 10 years ago. With it I am able to sometimes weather low points, begin the arduous climb up the mountain and draw from it again at the summit to express gratitude for small victories, (more than once since I am yet to learn how to remain at the summit, but I guess that's part of this human experience). The chant is "Na Mo E Mi Tuo fo" I can't find one that doesn't come with music but in the second embedded video is maybe a better description of employing the chant which may be vocalized to varying degrees.


Uln45d4yQ_0

IFb8vbdJYCE

[Mashika]

(more than once since I am yet to learn how to remain at the summit, but I guess that's part of this human experience).


My Zen teacher once told me that you should not remain away from your current human reality, it makes you lose touch and you become something else you may like, but it breaks you over time and you fail at living, you get disconnected

So i think it's meant to give us a higher experience and view, but we must return and use that experience to improve our current humanity. It will eventually take you there, but must not jump into it and stay permanently before time

[Ankle Biter]

(more than once since I am yet to learn how to remain at the summit, but I guess that's part of this human experience).


My Zen teacher once told me that you should not remain away from your current human reality, it makes you lose touch and you become something else you may like, but it breaks you over time and you fail at living, you get disconnected

So i think it's meant to give us a higher experience and view, but we must return and use that experience to improve our current humanity. It will eventually take you there, but must not jump into it and stay permanently before time

Agreed. Also in learning to improve our own current humanity we're in a better position to be helpful for others when called on. I do like being grounded, it's balanced, but even ground level is like a summit from the low points where Na Mo E Mi Tuo fo has helped to rise up.

[onevoice]

This one I learned in China around 10 years ago. With it I am able to sometimes weather low points, begin the arduous climb up the mountain and draw from it again at the summit to express gratitude for small victories, (more than once since I am yet to learn how to remain at the summit, but I guess that's part of this human experience). The chant is "Na Mo E Mi Tuo fo" I can't find one that doesn't come with music but in the second embedded video is maybe a better description of employing the chant which may be vocalized to varying degrees.


IFb8vbdJYCE
This Chinese Zen Master you referenced is my master (despite his passing away on February 3, 2009). He is world renowned, and recognized as a true Chinese Zen master as well as Chinese Buddhism scholar. I have attended many long-term intensive Zen retreats where he has personally guided and taught Chinese Zen methods of meditation. I am forever in his debt for transforming my life. It was a great privilege and honor to have sat only a few chairs away from him during meal times at several long term retreats held in the Chan Meditation Center in Queens New York before he became world renowned. And at evening Buddhism Dharma talks we were allowed to gather only a few feet from him.

When he gave his evening Dharma talks, every word had such great piercing wisdom and such great power that shook my entire being. The entire Zen retreat experience is really very difficult to describe.

The Pureland Buddhism (which is part of the Mahayana branch of Buddhism) uses this "Na Mo A Mi Tuo Fo" phrase as the main focus of their practice, along with meditation. This phrase means homage to the Amitābha Buddha (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amit%C4%81bha). Among most of modern Chinese Buddhists, it is customary to say "A Mi Tuo Fo" as a form of greeting, which is a transliteration from Chinese which mean Amitābha Buddha (first 3 syllables means Amitābha and the last syllable means Buddha.

[Mashika]

The entire Zen retreat experience is really very difficult to describe

Should not try, some people understand it by what others say, but it's meant to be unique, so must be experienced personally, not by written words, those just lead the other readers into assuming how it will be once they experience it. Compromising the moment

I stopped learning Buddhism lots of years ago, and only focused on Zen, since it requires a lot of inner thought but no organizational structure, like a religion does (i can't handle authority or being given orders or having to follow after someone). So it was a good fit for me

I can only look and wonder at people who manage to follow through with the complicated aspects of Buddhism, at the long term. But personally i could not follow through, i'm not capable of so much dedication to a practice, and Zen, as it happens, it's natural for me, no required enforcement, no hard, well determined rules, it's mostly freedom of just being. Don't know if this makes sense but you know "Zen is about not" thing :)




This one I learned in China around 10 years ago. With it I am able to sometimes weather low points, begin the arduous climb up the mountain and draw from it again at the summit to express gratitude for small victories, (more than once since I am yet to learn how to remain at the summit, but I guess that's part of this human experience). The chant is "Na Mo E Mi Tuo fo" I can't find one that doesn't come with music but in the second embedded video is maybe a better description of employing the chant which may be vocalized to varying degrees.


IFb8vbdJYCE
This Chinese Zen Master you referenced is my master (despite his passing away on February 3, 2009). He is world renowned, and recognized as a true Chinese Zen master as well as Chinese Buddhism scholar. I have attended many long-term intensive Zen retreats where he has personally guided and taught Chinese Zen methods of meditation. I am forever in his debt for transforming my life. It was a great privilege and honor to have sat only a few chairs away from him during meal times at several long term retreats held in the Chan Meditation Center in Queens New York before he became world renowned. And at evening Buddhism Dharma talks we were allowed to gather only a few feet from him.

When he gave his evening Dharma talks, every word had such great piercing wisdom and such great power that shook my entire being. The entire Zen retreat experience is really very difficult to describe.

[onevoice]

The entire Zen retreat experience is really very difficult to describe

Should not try, some people understand it by what others say, but it's meant to be unique, so must be experienced personally, not by written words, those just lead the other readers into assuming how it will be once they experience it. Compromising the moment

I stopped learning Buddhism lots of years ago, and only focused on Zen, since it requires a lot of inner thought but no organizational structure, like a religion does (i can't handle authority or being given orders or having to follow after someone). So it was a good fit for me

I can only look and wonder at people who manage to follow through with the complicated aspects of Buddhism, at the long term. But personally i could not follow through, i'm not capable of so much dedication to a practice, and Zen, as it happens, it's natural for me, no required enforcement, no hard, well determined rules, it's mostly freedom of just being. Don't know if this makes sense but you know "Zen is about not" thing :)




This one I learned in China around 10 years ago. With it I am able to sometimes weather low points, begin the arduous climb up the mountain and draw from it again at the summit to express gratitude for small victories, (more than once since I am yet to learn how to remain at the summit, but I guess that's part of this human experience). The chant is "Na Mo E Mi Tuo fo" I can't find one that doesn't come with music but in the second embedded video is maybe a better description of employing the chant which may be vocalized to varying degrees.


IFb8vbdJYCE
This Chinese Zen Master you referenced is my master (despite his passing away on February 3, 2009). He is world renowned, and recognized as a true Chinese Zen master as well as Chinese Buddhism scholar. I have attended many long-term intensive Zen retreats where he has personally guided and taught Chinese Zen methods of meditation. I am forever in his debt for transforming my life. It was a great privilege and honor to have sat only a few chairs away from him during meal times at several long term retreats held in the Chan Meditation Center in Queens New York before he became world renowned. And at evening Buddhism Dharma talks we were allowed to gather only a few feet from him.

When he gave his evening Dharma talks, every word had such great piercing wisdom and such great power that shook my entire being. The entire Zen retreat experience is really very difficult to describe.

Yes, I absolutely agree with you 100%. Zen encompasses the entire Buddhism and yet is the very essence of Buddhism. Buddhism has many aspects, such as the Dharma (which is essentially what the historical Buddha born in India taught) and the meditation practice which puts the Dharma into action. Although I agree Zen is quintessence of Buddhism, the Dharma is also necessary to establish philosophical and moral foundation for Zen. Without proper philosophical and moral foundation, it would be difficult to practice meditation the way the historical Buddha intended. For a long time after the historical Buddha attained his Supreme Enlightenment, he didn't really want to teach what he realized. But after much insistence from his original group of disciples, the historical Buddha did start to teach his Dharma.

Most of us in Buddhism recognizes that the Dharma is like a finger pointing to the moon, while the meditation is like the moon, the ultimate goal. The moon is the real thing, and the Dharma is only pointing or hinting at the real thing. I like how you said Zen is "not thing" because absolutely Zen is negation of this reality. Zen is also a transcendence of this reality and not just negation of this reality. This reality is an illusion and when we experience that this reality is an illusion created by our mind, we are enlightened.

Master Shen Yen once stated in a book that he saw his face reflected in a puddle of water, and he realized that his reflection is just as real as his physical face -- meaning that his physical body is an illusion just as much as the reflection of his face is an illusion. They are both projections of the mind. Ultimately Zen is indescribable, however until we are truly enlightened, we need Dharma and other forms of teaching to help us get enlightened. Please don't get me wrong, enlightenment is not a goal or a destination; it is a process or a journey. Also let's agree that words are very limited and can be easily misunderstood but at the same time can be useful tool to communicate and facilitate toward enlightenment.

[Mashika]

I like how you said Zen is "not thing" because absolutely Zen is negation of this reality. Zen is also a transcendence of this reality and not just negation of this reality. This reality is an illusion and when we experience that this reality is an illusion created by our mind, we are enlightened.

Thanks, yes! thank you for understanding that very specific "not thing" comment <3

First time someone has replied to me with real Zen understanding!

I'm very happy today :)






The entire Zen retreat experience is really very difficult to describe

Should not try, some people understand it by what others say, but it's meant to be unique, so must be experienced personally, not by written words, those just lead the other readers into assuming how it will be once they experience it. Compromising the moment

I stopped learning Buddhism lots of years ago, and only focused on Zen, since it requires a lot of inner thought but no organizational structure, like a religion does (i can't handle authority or being given orders or having to follow after someone). So it was a good fit for me

I can only look and wonder at people who manage to follow through with the complicated aspects of Buddhism, at the long term. But personally i could not follow through, i'm not capable of so much dedication to a practice, and Zen, as it happens, it's natural for me, no required enforcement, no hard, well determined rules, it's mostly freedom of just being. Don't know if this makes sense but you know "Zen is about not" thing :)




This one I learned in China around 10 years ago. With it I am able to sometimes weather low points, begin the arduous climb up the mountain and draw from it again at the summit to express gratitude for small victories, (more than once since I am yet to learn how to remain at the summit, but I guess that's part of this human experience). The chant is "Na Mo E Mi Tuo fo" I can't find one that doesn't come with music but in the second embedded video is maybe a better description of employing the chant which may be vocalized to varying degrees.


IFb8vbdJYCE
This Chinese Zen Master you referenced is my master (despite his passing away on February 3, 2009). He is world renowned, and recognized as a true Chinese Zen master as well as Chinese Buddhism scholar. I have attended many long-term intensive Zen retreats where he has personally guided and taught Chinese Zen methods of meditation. I am forever in his debt for transforming my life. It was a great privilege and honor to have sat only a few chairs away from him during meal times at several long term retreats held in the Chan Meditation Center in Queens New York before he became world renowned. And at evening Buddhism Dharma talks we were allowed to gather only a few feet from him.

When he gave his evening Dharma talks, every word had such great piercing wisdom and such great power that shook my entire being. The entire Zen retreat experience is really very difficult to describe.

Yes, I absolutely agree with you 100%. Zen encompasses the entire Buddhism and yet is the very essence of Buddhism. Buddhism has many aspects, such as the Dharma (which is essentially what the historical Buddha born in India taught) and the meditation practice which puts the Dharma into action. Although I agree Zen is quintessence of Buddhism, the Dharma is also necessary to establish philosophical and moral foundation for Zen. Without proper philosophical and moral foundation, it would be difficult to practice meditation the way the historical Buddha intended. For a long time after the historical Buddha attained his Supreme Enlightenment, he didn't really want to teach what he realized. But after much insistence from his original group of disciples, the historical Buddha did start to teach his Dharma.

Most of us in Buddhism recognizes that the Dharma is like a finger pointing to the moon, while the meditation is like the moon, the ultimate goal. The moon is the real thing, and the Dharma is only pointing or hinting at the real thing. I like how you said Zen is "not thing" because absolutely Zen is negation of this reality. Zen is also a transcendence of this reality and not just negation of this reality. This reality is an illusion and when we experience that this reality is an illusion created by our mind, we are enlightened.

Master Shen Yen once stated in a book that he saw his face reflected in a puddle of water, and he realized that his reflection is just as real as his physical face -- meaning that his physical body is an illusion just as much as the reflection of his face is an illusion. They are both projections of the mind. Ultimately Zen is indescribable, however until we are truly enlightened, we need Dharma and other forms of teaching to help us get enlightened. Please don't get me wrong, enlightenment is not a goal or a destination; it is a process or a journey. Also let's agree that words are very limited and can be easily misunderstood but at the same time can be useful tool to communicate and facilitate toward enlightenment.