Let's celebrate the first human in space by pretending he did not exist

[Mashika]

https://twitter.com/StateDept/status/1381631984099864578
1381631984099864578

I.... Ok

Should go into history books now, i guess

[Mashika]

Anyway... Here you go. " He who shall not be named"

https://projectavalon.net/forum4/attachment.php?attachmentid=46575&d=1618299307

[Journeyman]

https://twitter.com/StateDept/status/1381631984099864578
1381631984099864578

I.... Ok

Should go into history books now, i guess

Someone made the same point (https://twitter.com/ava414/status/1381633990961025034?s=20) underneath!

https://twitter.com/ava414/status/1381633990961025034?s=20

[Mashika]

At the house of government in Russia, there is an internal joke that the US government is managed by 3 kids stacked over each other under a trench coat

Im starting to believe it's not really a joke

[Matthew]

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e5/Yuri_Gagarin_%281961%29_-_Restoration.jpg/220px-Yuri_Gagarin_%281961%29_-_Restoration.jpg

Yuri Gagarin, an obvious Russian name/Russian achievement. Are the Department of State being politically bitchy? Could be for another reason. Yuri Gagarin deserves the respect :thumbsup:

[Mashika]

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e5/Yuri_Gagarin_%281961%29_-_Restoration.jpg/220px-Yuri_Gagarin_%281961%29_-_Restoration.jpg

Yuri Gagarin, an obvious Russian name/Russian achievement. Are the Department of State being politically bitchy? Could be for another reason. Yuri Gagarin deserves the respect :thumbsup:

Last year they 'forgot' to mention Russia on WW2 victory day. They also congratulated the US army on Auschwitz's liberation day, which was also done by Russia... Vice president Mike Pence even gave a speech about it, carefully written to avoid mentioning Russia or the USSR and to lead into thinking the US liberated Europe single handledly

So that's no oversight in any possible way. Pure cringe is what it is

[palehorse]

Thanks for Jack Parsons and ... Aleister Crowley LOL

[Matthew]

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e5/Yuri_Gagarin_%281961%29_-_Restoration.jpg/220px-Yuri_Gagarin_%281961%29_-_Restoration.jpg
...

Last year they 'forgot' to mention Russia on WW2 victory day. They also congratulated the US army on Auschwitz's liberation day, which was also done by Russia... Vice president Mike Pence even gave a speech about it, carefully written to avoid mentioning Russia or the USSR and to lead into thinking the US liberated Europe single handledly

So that's no oversight in any possible way. Pure cringe is what it is

In new-history Winston Churchill was Hitlers ally. Education has been getting duller by the decade, and WWII is further from living history. My grandparents were that generation that literally left their home to fight Nazis under Winston Churchill. But we have a generation who has no personal recollection like I do, from my grandparents stories, and have less education.... it's media and controlling agendas too, but ignorance has been creeping up. Things like this make me think we are in a post-truth world 🤔 -> Probably not a direct Orwell quote but meh, the words speak for themselves: "In a time of deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act."

[Brigantia]

In new-history Winston Churchill was Hitlers ally. Education has been getting duller by the decade, and WWII is further from living history. My grandparents were that generation that literally left their home to fight Nazis under Winston Churchill. But we have a generation who has no personal recollection like I do, from my grandparents stories, and have less education.... it's media and controlling agendas too, but ignorance has been creeping up. Things like this make me think we are in a post-truth world 🤔 -> Probably not a direct Orwell quote but meh, the words speak for themselves: "In a time of deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act."

You took the words right out of my mouth Matthew; I wonder what history kids are taught today as well. It dawned on me a while ago that to today's youth, WW2 is as distant in time as the Boer Wars are to me, but I bet I know more about the Boer Wars than they do about WW2.

I also grew up with family wartime reminiscences; I learnt first-hand from my parents what it was like to spend nights in a cold, damp and cramped air-raid shelter, and they had to go to school the next day. There was no time off for the trauma of German bombers overhead. My grandmothers also went to their wartime jobs.

Back to topic, that was my immediate thought when I saw Mashika's first post - what about Yuri Gagarin??

[Bill Ryan]

Back to topic, that was my immediate thought when I saw Mashika's first post - what about Yuri Gagarin??There's quite a lot of interesting evidence to suggest that Yuri Gagarin wasn't even the first human in space. :) Rather, he was just rolled out as the USSR's handsome poster child. (Short on time here, but I'll update more on this very fascinating topic a little later.)

[Mark (Star Mariner)]

Yup, the first man in space was quite possibly Vladimir Ilyushin (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vladimir_Ilyushin). The theory went, that similar to any revolutionary new prototype, it had to have a test pilot. Ilyushin was that test pilot. If the mission went horribly wrong and he never returned from space it would severely embarrass the Soviet Union, so the mission was kept secret. As it was a success, Gagarin had the green light for the first publicly disclosed manned space flight. This is an old, very old conspiracy theory that has never gone away. Unfortunately it's difficult to prove if not impossible, but a 'trial run' prior to Gagarin does make a lot of sense.

[Bill Ryan]

Yup, the first man in space was quite possibly Vladimir Ilyushin (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vladimir_Ilyushin). The theory went, that similar to any revolutionary new prototype, it had to have a test pilot. Ilyushin was that test pilot. If the mission went horribly wrong and he never returned from space it would severely embarrass the Soviet Union, so the mission was kept secret. As it was a success, Gagarin had the green light for the first publicly disclosed manned space flight. This is an old, very old conspiracy theory that has never gone away. Unfortunately it's difficult to prove if not impossible, but a 'trial run' prior to Gagarin does make a lot of sense.Yes. Here you go. It's interesting to look up the many articles about this. I'm reasonably convinced the story is true, and that the reason why Ilyushin was never paraded to the world is because he was quite badly injured in the landing.

https://projectavalon.net/The_First_Man_in_Space.jpg

Here's the exact transcript, as some of the text is a little hard to read:

~~~

Soviet astronaut circles the earth three times

THE FIRST MAN IN SPACE

Back alive — but suffering from effects of his flight

THE Soviet Union has launched the first man into space and
brought him back to earth alive, according to well-informed
sources here.

The astronaut, said to be the test-pilot son of a top-ranking
Soviet aircraft designer, is understood to be suffering after-effects
from his flight.

Top aviation medical
specialists and leading
space scientists are in
constant attendance.

They are keeping him
under close observation.

An official announcement re-
garding the flight, said to have
taken place on Friday, is ex-
pected tomorrow.

The astronaut is said to have
completed three orbits around
the earth some 200 miles out in
space before returning to earth
in response to a signal from
ground-station.

EAGER WAIT

His flight was made in a space
vehicle weighing about 4½ tons
of the type previously tested in
space flight with dogs.

The city has for the last 24
hours been waiting with baited
breath in expectation of the
official announcement that the
Union has won the space race.

All day Muscovites have been
keeping an ear cocked at their
radios.

Evening papers were eagerly
snatched up and scanned for
confirmation — or refutal — of
the many rumours circulating
amoung journalistic and scienti-
fic circles in the city.

[Journeyman]

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e5/Yuri_Gagarin_%281961%29_-_Restoration.jpg/220px-Yuri_Gagarin_%281961%29_-_Restoration.jpg

Yuri Gagarin, an obvious Russian name/Russian achievement. Are the Department of State being politically bitchy? Could be for another reason. Yuri Gagarin deserves the respect :thumbsup:

Last year they 'forgot' to mention Russia on WW2 victory day. They also congratulated the US army on Auschwitz's liberation day, which was also done by Russia... Vice president Mike Pence even gave a speech about it, carefully written to avoid mentioning Russia or the USSR and to lead into thinking the US liberated Europe single handledly

So that's no oversight in any possible way. Pure cringe is what it is

He should've been made to visit here (http://www.saint-petersburg.com/cemeteries/piskaryovskoe-memorial-cemetery/)and apologise.

[The Moss Trooper]

Yup, the first man in space was quite possibly Vladimir Ilyushin (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vladimir_Ilyushin). The theory went, that similar to any revolutionary new prototype, it had to have a test pilot. Ilyushin was that test pilot. If the mission went horribly wrong and he never returned from space it would severely embarrass the Soviet Union, so the mission was kept secret. As it was a success, Gagarin had the green light for the first publicly disclosed manned space flight. This is an old, very old conspiracy theory that has never gone away. Unfortunately it's difficult to prove if not impossible, but a 'trial run' prior to Gagarin does make a lot of sense.Yes. Here you go. It's interesting to look up the many articles about this. I'm reasonably convinced the story is true, and that the reason why Ilyushin was never paraded to the world is because he was quite badly injured in the landing.

https://projectavalon.net/The_First_Man_in_Space.jpg

Here's the exact transcript, as some of the text is a little hard to read:

~~~

Soviet astronaut circles the earth three times

THE FIRST MAN IN SPACE

Back alive — but suffering from effects of his flight

THE Soviet Union has launched the first man into space and
brought him back to earth alive, according to well-informed
sources here.

The astronaut, said to be the test-pilot son of a top-ranking
Soviet aircraft designer, is understood to be suffering after-effects
from his flight.

Top aviation medical
specialists and leading
space scientists are in
constant attendance.

They are keeping him
under close observation.

An official announcement re-
garding the flight, said to have
taken place on Friday, is ex-
pected tomorrow.

The astronaut is said to have
completed three orbits around
the earth some 200 miles out in
space before returning to earth
in response to a signal from
ground-station.

EAGER WAIT

His flight was made in a space
vehicle weighing about 4½ tons
of the type previously tested in
space flight with dogs.

The city has for the last 24
hours been waiting with baited
breath in expectation of the
official announcement that the
Union has won the space race.

All day Muscovites have been
keeping an ear cocked at their
radios.

Evening papers were eagerly
snatched up and scanned for
confirmation — or refutal — of
the many rumours circulating
amoung journalistic and scienti-
fic circles in the city.

Absolutely!

It is all smoke and mirrors, circuses and bread. Russia and America have worked hand-in-hand behind the scenes for time immemorial. The facade of adversaries is just that, a facade.

Once that nugget is firmly implanted in to one's consciousness, things like the Cold War, Space Race, etc, etc, make much more sense.


Don't believe the hype.

[Strat]

Not to be a party pooper but I don't think they were suggesting the US was the first in space. The were simply mentioning the day, then honoring US astronauts.

I have a US history book written by the secretary of education under the Reagan admin (doesn't get much more brainwashy than that) and it mentions Yuri as well as his quote about not seeing God, a kind of middle finger to the US.

[Mecklenburger]

The War Clock is Ticking.

What must be borne in mind is that this statement by a President with great difficulties of memory and focus strays beyond his own global-socialist guidelines and policies.

The original intention was an insult to Russia. If he had said "We honour all astronauts" and left out the "US" bit it might not have been so bad. But in naming this male, Collins, whoever he was, he concentrates specifically on the male success and brushes aside women in space. No US female in space has ever been worth a mention. This is what Biden is saying by omission.

Besides Gagarin the man, we must not forget Valentina Tereshkova the woman.

[DeDukshyn]

https://twitter.com/StateDept/status/1381631984099864578
1381631984099864578

I.... Ok

Should go into history books now, i guess

My god the arrogance ... that is unreal ... kinda sad. Americans tend to have such issues honouring anything that is not American ... and that is not patriotism ... its arrogance.

Well, hopefully the newer generations, have lost that tendency.

[DeDukshyn]

Not to be a party pooper but I don't think they were suggesting the US was the first in space. The were simply mentioning the day, then honoring US astronauts.

...

"Let's honour the day the first man went into space ... by instead honouring some other men who weren't first in space."

Nope, it's weird. :)

[Strat]

It's #humanspaceflight day not #firstmaninspace day. I join in on the celebration of US astronauts and I hope it inspires other US children to follow their dreams to become astronauts. Call me weird, call me what you wish.

EDIT: Don't read too far into this.... I've had a rough few days and I get ****ty so my apologies. I stand by what I said but I don't mean to get pissy. Much love

[Mashika]

It's #humanspaceflight day not #firstmaninspace day. I join in on the celebration of US astronauts and I hope it inspires other US children to follow their dreams to become astronauts. Call me weird, call me what you wish.

EDIT: Don't read too far into this.... I've had a rough few days and I get ****ty so my apologies. I stand by what I said but I don't mean to get pissy. Much love

The problem is this



Today marks 60 years since the first human was sent to space!

So... who was that "first human"? They took the time to write other name and link to a video of the other person, but not mention the "first human sent to space", or link to a video of him of which there are a few online

Other countries posted a tweet as well, they did not leave the name out. I don't think we need to read too much into it, it's clear as the sky, sorry

See this, it was Russia who liberated Auschwitz, not the US, yet the US vice president at the time was the one to give a speech, and he 'forgot' to mention Russia, and ended up congratulating the US army for some reason


Vice President Pence Delivers Remarks at the Fifth World Holocaust Forum to Mark the 75th Anniversary of the Liberation of Auschwitz

Pa9OQNZSULU

That was embarrassing, really

Is not about anything else but to send a message, is not an oversight in any way

Let's have more honor than that

:cocktail::cocktail::cocktail:

[Mashika]

Yup, the first man in space was quite possibly Vladimir Ilyushin (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vladimir_Ilyushin). The theory went, that similar to any revolutionary new prototype, it had to have a test pilot. Ilyushin was that test pilot. If the mission went horribly wrong and he never returned from space it would severely embarrass the Soviet Union, so the mission was kept secret. As it was a success, Gagarin had the green light for the first publicly disclosed manned space flight. This is an old, very old conspiracy theory that has never gone away. Unfortunately it's difficult to prove if not impossible, but a 'trial run' prior to Gagarin does make a lot of sense.Yes. Here you go. It's interesting to look up the many articles about this. I'm reasonably convinced the story is true, and that the reason why Ilyushin was never paraded to the world is because he was quite badly injured in the landing.

https://projectavalon.net/The_First_Man_in_Space.jpg

Here's the exact transcript, as some of the text is a little hard to read:

~~~

Soviet astronaut circles the earth three times

THE FIRST MAN IN SPACE

Back alive — but suffering from effects of his flight

THE Soviet Union has launched the first man into space and
brought him back to earth alive, according to well-informed
sources here.

The astronaut, said to be the test-pilot son of a top-ranking
Soviet aircraft designer, is understood to be suffering after-effects
from his flight.

Top aviation medical
specialists and leading
space scientists are in
constant attendance.

They are keeping him
under close observation.

An official announcement re-
garding the flight, said to have
taken place on Friday, is ex-
pected tomorrow.

The astronaut is said to have
completed three orbits around
the earth some 200 miles out in
space before returning to earth
in response to a signal from
ground-station.

EAGER WAIT

His flight was made in a space
vehicle weighing about 4½ tons
of the type previously tested in
space flight with dogs.

The city has for the last 24
hours been waiting with baited
breath in expectation of the
official announcement that the
Union has won the space race.

All day Muscovites have been
keeping an ear cocked at their
radios.

Evening papers were eagerly
snatched up and scanned for
confirmation — or refutal — of
the many rumours circulating
amoung journalistic and scienti-
fic circles in the city.

I remember being on 6th grade and casually mentioning that i did not think he was the "first one", because how did they know it would even work and they needed to do a few tests before, no chance they would get to fail in front of the entire world. I almost got thrown out the window lol.

[Strat]

They didn't have to mention the first person in space, yet they did. One would think the dumb Americans would've left that fact out if they were attempting to ignore it in the first place. Surely they're just too dumb and we're not looking into this through a skewed lens because the US is evil and all other countries are kind hearted and aren't seeking world domination.

I agree the, honorable Russians liberated much of Europe. Poland, Estonia et al are stoked about that.

I'm tapping out before I have an aneurysm.

[Mashika]

They didn't have to mention the first person in space, yet they did. One would think the dumb Americans would've left that fact out if they were attempting to ignore it in the first place. Surely they're just too dumb and we're not looking into this through a skewed lens because the US is evil and all other countries are kind hearted and aren't seeking world domination.

I agree the, honorable Russians liberated much of Europe. Poland, Estonia et al are stoked about that.

I'm tapping out before I have an aneurysm.

That's part of the insult :) Mentioning it casually but leaving out 'who' he was, because is not 'relevant' or 'important' enough

It's a clear political insult for any Russian, maybe in the US is not seen like that but it is, trust me

Whataboutisms lol, those are always funny

I'm very well aware of what happened back then, i won't deny history, it happened and it will stay that way and it would be bad to hide it or pretend it did not went the way it went

In that same way, why are people offended by this? So defensive that it almost sounds like they angry about being called out

If i were to speak about 'what about this' then we could go into posting a list of the 180 or so countries the US has destabilized since WW2 ended, those are also not very happy about it, but what about it? It has nothing to do with this thread. But the way the US is handling things these days is shameful and without any honor.

So excuse me for pointing out the truth, whatever happened in WW2 did not happen on our time, but this is happening right now, we can't change the past, but can you change the present or future? Or do you like and agree to revision history in very immature ways?

Like i said, on the Russian government there's that internal joke, and i know it is also mentioned in other places, that the US government is managed by 3 kids stacked on each other on a trench coat. There's a reason that joke is thrown around, even by some US allies

Are we're still on 8th grade? Meet me at the tennis court after school :P

See how immature i sounded there? Imagine if i were to pretend i don't know your name, just when i know you for a while, but we are talking in a group of friends and i say "oh dude, what's your name, you in the white shirt", clearly is not cool, or mature at all, it was done on purpose.

I feel like you are taking it very personal, my comments were directed towards the US government, not the US people. I don't even think those two groups are the same, and there's been some time since the US last cared what the US people needed, it doesn't represent them, as far as i can see

But what do i know

[DeDukshyn]

It's #humanspaceflight day not #firstmaninspace day. I join in on the celebration of US astronauts and I hope it inspires other US children to follow their dreams to become astronauts. Call me weird, call me what you wish.

EDIT: Don't read too far into this.... I've had a rough few days and I get ****ty so my apologies. I stand by what I said but I don't mean to get pissy. Much love

Hahah! No issue of course with you feeling ****sy about something ... there's nothing wrong with a good debate or disagreement or presenting a personal insight on an issue. I just think that honouring people on the honourable day a certain man was honoured for without mentioning his name is a bit of dick move ... I think you have to agree a little...

Honouring other space people is awesome ... it's the specifics of the tweet is all. My 2 cents.

[Mecklenburger]

The Russians did not exactly liberate Europe.

The war began on 1 September 1939 when Hitler invaded and occupied half of Poland, and the Soviet Union invaded and occupied the other half of Poland. The purpose of the war called by Britain and France two days later was to eject only the Germans because it was not a military possibility to defeat both Germany and the Soviet Union in collusion. If the Soviet Union had not signed a pact in support of Hitler in August 1939, the Nazi Government would almost certainly not have gone into Poland.

The Soviets made a great sacrifices for the Allied victory admittedly. However, the reason why certain countries do not attend the May 9 Victory celebrations is because the following countries were forced to accept Soviet control of their Government without free elections for many, many years, and the tyranny was seen clearly in the West when Hungary and Czechoslovakia attempted to get the Soviet occupiers to kindly go. All the Soviets really did was replace the German occupation with their own system run by themselves.

The countries of which I write are: Poland, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Czechoslovakia, Hungary, Albania, Yugoslavia, Bulgaria, Rumania and East Germany (forty years after the defeat).

This is history. We must state the facts honestly. Do not misunderstand me. I am not anti-Russian. Today in my opinion the country is run admirably well.

[Mashika]

The Russians did not exactly liberate Europe.

The war began on 1 September 1939 when Hitler invaded and occupied half of Poland, and the Soviet Union invaded and occupied the other half of Poland. The purpose of the war called by Britain and France two days later was to eject only the Germans because it was not a military possibility to defeat both Germany and the Soviet Union in collusion. If the Soviet Union had not signed a pact in support of Hitler in August 1939, the Nazi Government would almost certainly not have gone into Poland.

The Soviets made a great sacrifices for the Allied victory admittedly. However, the reason why certain countries do not attend the May 9 Victory celebrations is because the following countries were forced to accept Soviet control of their Government without free elections for many, many years, and the tyranny was seen clearly in the West when Hungary and Czechoslovakia attempted to get the Soviet occupiers to kindly go. All the Soviets really did was replace the German occupation with their own system run by themselves.

The countries of which I write are: Poland, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Czechoslovakia, Hungary, Albania, Yugoslavia, Bulgaria, Rumania and East Germany (forty years after the defeat).

This is history. We must state the facts honestly. Do not misunderstand me. I am not anti-Russian. Today in my opinion the country is run admirably well.

Like i said, that was then and this is now, we are not responsible for things that happened almost a century ago, and that was the USSR, i'm Russian, i was never a Soviet citizen in the first place

So bringing up stuff like that to escape the current immature attitude of the US government seems complete out of place, sorry but yeah it sounds like that 'but what about this' thing or 'whataboutism' as we call it on the net

Incidentally, there's a bit more to the deal with Russia with Germany, first, the UK and France and others made a deal with Germany, to not get involved in the war that was about to begin, then they delivered their side of the deal, so that they would not be affected by the coming war, see here:

https://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/munich-pact-signed#:~:text=British%20and%20French%20prime%20ministers,Czechoslovakia%20away%20to%20German%20conq uest

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Munich_Agreement

But that part is as usual left out, "for reasons" we all know

This happened:


An emergency meeting of the main European powers — not including Czechoslovakia, although their representatives were present in the town, or the Soviet Union, an ally to both France and Czechoslovakia — took place in Munich, Germany, on 29–30 September 1938. An agreement was quickly reached on Hitler's terms, being signed by the leaders of Germany, France, Britain, and Italy.

They delivered the country to Hitler, so they would not be attacked themselves, so excuse me if i call hypocrisy on the now high moral ground they take when revising history these days

And there's more info about why Russia pacted with Germany, basically the USSR government tried to talk to the UK and France and they were ignored and told to go away, because those countries already had a pact with Hitler. So Russia made the exact same pact. But that's not how some people want to remember history of course

https://www.britannica.com/event/German-Soviet-Nonaggression-Pact


The Soviet Union had been unable to reach a collective-security agreement with Britain and France against Nazi Germany, most notably at the time of the Munich Conference in September 1938. By early 1939 the Soviets faced the prospect of resisting German military expansion in eastern Europe virtually alone, and so they began searching about for a change of policy. On May 3, 1939, Soviet leader Joseph Stalin fired Foreign Minister Maksim Litvinov, who was Jewish and an advocate of collective security, and replaced him with Vyacheslav Mikhaylovich Molotov, who soon began negotiations with the Nazi foreign minister, Joachim von Ribbentrop. The Soviets also kept negotiating with Britain and France, but in the end Stalin chose to reach an agreement with Germany. By doing so he hoped to keep the Soviet Union at peace with Germany and to gain time to build up the Soviet military establishment, which had been badly weakened by the purge of the Red Army officer corps in 1937. The Western democracies’ hesitance in opposing Adolf Hitler, along with Stalin’s own inexplicable personal preference for the Nazis, also played a part in Stalin’s final choice


So as you said



We must state the facts honestly


And i have found very few of that in the past 6 years i've been learning western culture. There was even someone who told me and bragged that the US had been first to reach Germany and to kill Hitler, and that the USSR was later later on, and that WW2 ended with the Atomic bombs on Japan, regardless of the truth that it had ended before, that year, and that Japan did not surrender even after the bombs were dropped but only chose to after they learned the other allied countries were preparing to invade, because a group of diplomats from Russia was sent to Japan to advice them to surrender. By the way it was a surrender to the US, not to Russia, we're still at war technically and up until this very moment i'm writing this
https://blog.nationalarchives.gov.uk/soviet-japan-and-the-termination-of-the-second-world-war/


However, on 8 August 1945, two days after the atomic bombing of Hiroshima and the day before the second bomb fell on Nagasaki, the Soviet Union declared war on Japan. The news of impending war with the Soviet Union sent shockwaves through Japanese policy makers: just before he left Moscow for the Conference, Stalin had received a personal message from the Japanese Emperor, asking him to act as intermediary between Japan and the United States. The Soviet betrayal was an important factor in forcing Japan to surrender.


Those things are 'history' and facts, with dates and places where it happened, and yet here we are discussing issues not related to Yuri Gagarin being ignored as an insult to Russia, because "of reasons" as i said before

All i said is fully documented and there is paper trail and plenty of evidence of all of it, so it's not that "i want my country to come up on top" or that i'm trying to rewrite history in any way

That's why i said that more honor should be displayed with these things

ETA: Also see this, the 'thing no one talks about'
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_and_the_Holocaust

So, pretending that didn't happen? Not very honorable, and has there ever been a speech where the US president or anyone, asked for forgiveness about that? They knew and they allowed it to happen

But this thread was not about that, if you would like to see or talk more about it, i actually had a thread last year about when the US president rewrote history to exclude the USSR from WW2 victory day "by mistake" :facepalm:
https://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?110922-Victory-Day

:bowing::sun:

[Bill Ryan]

:bump: :bump: :bump:

[Ravenlocke]

:bump: :bump: :bump:

The following article was published in 2011.

What are your thoughts on this?

https://www.thespacereview.com/article/1820/1

Review: Fallen Idol: The Yuri Gagarin Conspiracy

by James Oberg
Monday, April 11, 2011


Of all the notorious myths that have enshrouded the space mission of Yuri Gagarin on Vostok on April 12, 1961, the oldest and most interesting has been the story that his flight was preceded by a secret mission that failed. Most specifically, many people claimed—and as we shall see, still claim—that the first man in space was actually Vladimir Ilyushin, a noted Soviet test pilot and son of the leading aircraft designer.

In 2009 we saw the release of “Fallen Idol: The Yuri Gagarin Conspiracy”, a new program that was an outgrowth of a 1999 documentary, “The Cosmonaut Coverup”, both produced by a veteran team led by Elliott Haimoff of Global Science Productions. It alleged that Vladimir Ilyushin was really the first man to orbit Earth. This was supposed to have occurred on April 7, 1961, but Ilyushin was off course and badly injured on landing, and came down in China, where he was held prisoner for a full year. The Chinese agreed to cooperate with the USSR’s pretense that Gagarin (launched April 12) was really the first man in orbit.

Both programs contained some very interesting lengthy comments from Dennis Ogden, the British journalist who, in 1961, sparked the original version of the story while serving as the Moscow correspondent for the communist newspaper Daily Worker. Ogden died a few years after the release of the first DVD.

Besides Ogden, a major promoter of the theory was Gordon Feller, billed as publisher of “Russian Business News”, who in Final Frontier magazine had written that he had been given access in the Kremlin to documents detailing all of the original secret cosmonaut disasters. But curiously, the material he disclosed was precisely the same set of stories that I’d been debunking since about 1973—nothing new had been added. He described how he was allowed to examine the material, but could not take any notes, so he had to keep going outside of the building to write things down (he did not explain what he did with these contraband notes when he repeatedly returned to the building to memorize more names). Both Mike Cassutt and I wrote stern letters to Final Frontier, with my letter explaining why I found Feller’s narrative impossible to believe. Feller is highlighted in the new production as well and I’ve found no reason to revise my initial assessment of his story’s credibility.

The Ilyushin theory has now been expanded with new interviews and evidence, and reissued. It seems odd that no effort appears to have been made to promote this film at this seemingly perfect moment, but it’s still worth attention for being the best-ever formulation of the claim. But is “best” even “good enough”?

Narrator Elliott Gould opens the program with a promise of “brand-new declassified evidence” that will establish the reality of “the lies and deceit… [of] a joint US and Russian government coverup.” As a result, he promises, “Ultimately all of the history books of the world will have to be changed.”

The recorded testimony of a number of the experts interviewed was used to portray the secrecy and deception policies of the USSR in the period of the Space Race. Extensive sound bites are presented from Sergey Khrushchev, son of Nikita Khrushchev and now a professor emeritus at Brown University. But curiously, the program has no segment in which Khrushchev fils actually endorses the Ilyushin theory.

The reason is simple. He told them the theory was bunk, so they decided not to use those comments. In an email of August 11, 2009, he gave me the following statement:

“Gagarin was the first cosmonaut and Vladimir Illushin never was in the cosmonaut group. He was test pilot and had car accident. I told this on camera, Mr. Haimoff argued that he has evidence, I answered that I KNOW and advised him to ask Illushin. He answered that he asked, Illushin denied, ‘because his was instructed to do so’. This is the story, the rest is manipulation with the tape, you know that it is possible to do everything that you want. I do not know any Russian historian who believe in this absurd version.”

Khrushchev, mind you, is one of the experts the program presents to support their thesis.

But Ilyushin is the hero of the piece, and evidence can be found in the sincerity of people who do believe that narrative. Gordon Feller, presented as a “Soviet space historian” (but with no record of actually publishing anything significant on that subject), states: “In my view [Ilyushin] was an obvious choice, it was no accident [he was first]”. Another proponent of the theory is Racheal Seymour, who appears in her interviews as a young woman with a severe hairstyle and studious eyeglasses, with a caption identifying her as a former CIA space analyst. Ilyushin, she testifies, “was considered a shoo-in for the first flight into space.”

An old clip of the aged Dennis Ogden follows: “A photo of Ilyushin wearing space gear was published saying he was undergoing training as a cosmonaut,” he states. But even after more than fifteen years of research on both programs, the photograph has never been found. The image that the program shows is actually of Gennadiy Zavadovskiy, identified officially (and credibly, as we’ll see) as a “tester” of aviation equipment, wearing a standard high-altitude pressure suit. But Ogden repeats the claim: “I had seen a photograph of Vladimir Ilyushin wearing space gear and referred to as a member of the cosmonaut group.”

Narrator Gould refers to inept Soviet press denials: “At first they presented Col. Ilyushin as having been a cosmonaut in training but one who just didn’t get to go up into space… at that time. Then the story evolved to where Col. Ilyushin was never a cosmonaut trainee… The story changed, that he was a cosmonaut in training but recently had been in a car accident.” The implication: clumsy lies betokened a deep, dark secret.

The program’s “Ilyushin scenario” is also internally inconsistent.
But where are such articles and such photographs? Gould has the perfect excuse: a borzoi ate them, sort of. “Photos and film clips and references to Colonel Ilyushin as a cosmonaut seemed like they’d been erased from existence,” he complains (including those in Western archives and private hands, we must presume). “The Soviets clearly excised evidence of Ilyushin’s flight exactly like they did for the Nedelin rocket disaster and all other failures of any space agency program or cosmonaut dropout,” he added, implying that absence of evidence of a conspiracy is proof of the existence of the conspiracy. But all such other disasters worked their way out past the secrecy—all, except the Ilyushin mission, it seems.

Gennadiy Zavadovskiy played an unwitting role in the Ilyushin rumors and other stories of secret space fatalities in those years. Officially he was part of a team of men at the Institute of Aviation and Aerospace Biomedicine who were testing crew equipment for extreme flight. He and his colleagues Aleksey Belokonov, Ivan Kachur, Aleksey Grachev, and Gennadiy Mikhaylov were often profiled in the Moscow press. Some Western newsmen suspected they really were cosmonaut trainees (they actually did hope to become such), and when they weren’t launched into orbit, it was logical to presume they’d been killed on secret flights in the 1962–3 period. Their names were on many “secret lists”.

Some recently-released photographs and articles have settled that uncertainty. Early in 1967, as tribute to their pioneering contributions, Yuri Gagarin visited the tester institute and was photographed with Zavadovskiy and Belokonov, both still alive. In the clear photos, released only a year ago, he’s wearing his 1967-era medals and rank, so the date is reliable, even though it was years after they were reported “dead in space” in many articles, including Gordon Feller’s.

And in a long profile of the tester team published in a Russian newspaper in 2005 (“Gagarin Was Twelfth?”), Belokonov’s son recalled overhearing a West German news report claiming: “In the Soviet Union one more cosmonaut has perished. Cosmonaut Aleksey Belokonov became the latest victim. His last words were, ‘I have an oxygen leak.’”

His father (who died in 1991) was amused by the Western reports. “In the beginning of the ’80s,” he told historian Andrey Moissenko, “my father told the scientific reporter of Komsomolskaya, Yaroslav Golovanov, that, as he saw it, the myth about the so-called ‘flights’ could have been developed by the KGB for diverting eyes from the real team of cosmonauts.” If so, it certainly worked—and is still working to this day.

The program’s “Ilyushin scenario” is also internally inconsistent. At some points, they accept Ogden’s story that it occurred on April 7, five days before the official flight. But at other times, the theory is that it occurred on March 25, the day of the flight of an unmanned Vostok carrying a dog and a dummy named “Ivan Ivanovich”. As Gould proclaimed, “To account for Ilyushin’s flight the Soviets just claimed they had sent up a crash-test dummy that had electrodes attached to its body, saying that it was used for an unmanned mission as a safety precaution, just a precursor to Gagarin’s flight.”

Gould triumphantly unveiled the piece de resistance of the Ilyushin evidence: “Unfortunately for the propagandists, the US Air Force tracking facility at Tern Island was able to clearly pick up a heartbeat, that of a human occupant, detected and tracked in real time. And it was consistent with that of a person in extreme danger.”

By trying to prove this theory, Haimoff has performed a useful service to history: if this is the best case that can be made for it, it didn’t happen that way.
Just what was the characteristic of the heartbeat that revealed its owner was in “extreme danger”? Gould never explained that part, but the radio operator at Tern Island (with whom I’ve been in touch for years) told me it was the very high pulse rate—about 130 beats per minute, truly a near-catastrophic rate that a human wouldn’t long survive. But fortunately, normal canine pulse rates are in the 120–140 beats/minute range, and the dog (whose rate was actually being heard) survived the mission perfectly.

To prove the flight was secretly carrying a human, what the program had done was to first tacitly assume the flight was carrying a human, so the heartbeat was too fast. Naturally, any argument to prove “A is true” will work, if assuming “A is true” is one of the initial parameters.

The program’s scriptwriter often did not even read the documents cited as evidence. For example, regarding operations on Tern Island, Gould reported: “We requested these documents and materials… The NSA response was: ‘these documents [sic] are classified…’” This directly implies the letter admitted the requested documents actually exist but are not being released.

If one screen-grabs the image of the letter flashed briefly, however, this is the real text: “One document was located which is responsive to your request. Although the document does not directly relate to the topics of your request, it was found to be responsive because it refers in passing to a manned Soviet space flight… The document is classified because its disclosure could reasonably be expected to cause exceptionally grave danger to national security, and is exempt from automatic declassification.”

Gould is clearly being sloppy by what “these documents” really mean. The documents the program demanded were not found. A marginally related document was found but is exempt from declassification. Nothing in the response acknowledges anything to confirm any aspect of the program’s theory.

Much of the later program is devoted to the Soyuz-1 stories associated with the tales in Starman from the dubious witness Venyamin Russovskiy. This aspect can best be discussed in a separate essay.

In discussing the theory that Gagarin was subsequently murdered by Kremlin officials, the program resorts to supportive facts not supported by documentation. “It was reported the jet experienced engine failure, spiraled to the ground, and crashed,” says Gould, inaccurately—the engine was running on impact, and there was no radar evidence of any spiral. “This was Gagarin’s very first flight after seven years of being grounded.” But it wasn’t. He’d been flying all spring with a trainer, and this was the last flight before being allowed to solo.

In the end, the program must explain why Ilyushin still wouldn’t confess to making the flight. Seymour, who identifies herself as a “former CIA analyst” and may have at least been a summer intern, but is now a professional daytime soap actress, grapples with the puzzle: “In my mind one of the most perplexing questions about the whole affair is why Ilyushin, why would his fellow cosmonauts, the Russians, the Chinese, the US government, why would they want to remain quiet on this for so many years. I mean the answer on the individual level is that Ilyushin and his colleagues have been heavily subsidized by the government, and they’re high-ranking military officials, they just don’t want to make waves. Now on a government level they just don’t want their people to be asking what else has been kept secret, how else have we been lied to?”

Gould provides the ultimate irony with his closing comments: “I for one can’t in good conscience sit back and allow or tolerate falsified history books, governmental cover-ups, and international conspiracies to continue without question. The same spirit is within me now for real, the same heartfelt need to seek the truth, as the investigative reporter I played in Capricorn One.” Confusing one’s real life with roles one has played is the bane of the acting profession, from Ronald Reagan to the present day.

“At the very least I feel we have planted a flag of journalistic integrity and honesty,” Gould continues, “a seed of questions to begin to set the record straight about Yuri Gagarin, Vladimir Ilyushin, and the practices and procedures of the old communist Soviet empire. I guess I leave history to the historian. Thank you for joining me on this journey.”

Gagarin made the flight, and he made it first. Ilyushin, who died last year without ever confirming Haimoff’s theories, has an honored place in Soviet aviation history—but not in spaceflight.
A fitting afterword is producer Haimoff’s bitter complaint about why nobody seems to believe his theory. In an email shortly after the release of the first of these two DVDs, he wrote: “I am just disgusted with all of your doubters and ‘James Oberg’-type clones who have just been duped for the last 40 years, and are just expressing their ‘sour grapes’ over not being able to root out this story first, or hold up books and articles of 40 years of Russian propaganda and tell the world that this is the truth beyond any shadow of a doubt.” By trying to prove this theory, Haimoff has performed a useful service to history: if this is the best case that can be made for it, it didn’t happen that way.

Since Russian space history is certainly more an art than a science, and Soviet secrecy has made the process triply-difficult, those engaged in the effort have learned the humility to expect being blindsided by new revelations and testimonials. Some people’s claims are still subject to debate, and some surprises are sure to pop up. But with the vast documentation now on hand, including memoirs of top people such as Kamenin, Mishin, Chertok, and others, the broad outline seems fairly well established. Gagarin made the flight, and he made it first. Ilyushin, who died last year without ever confirming Haimoff’s theories, has an honored place in Soviet aviation history—but not in spaceflight. And even researchers on dead-ended wild-goose chases help establish the boundaries of the credible versus the incredible.

[Bill Ryan]

In 2009 we saw the release of “Fallen Idol: The Yuri Gagarin Conspiracy”, a new program that was an outgrowth of a 1999 documentary, “The Cosmonaut Coverup”, both produced by a veteran team led by Elliott Haimoff of Global Science Productions. It alleged that Vladimir Ilyushin was really the first man to orbit Earth. This was supposed to have occurred on April 7, 1961, but Ilyushin was off course and badly injured on landing, and came down in China, where he was held prisoner for a full year. The Chinese agreed to cooperate with the USSR’s pretense that Gagarin (launched April 12) was really the first man in orbit.Here it is: :thumbsup:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CNPH-gcNMnc


[James Oberg's film review]
What are your thoughts on this?

I'm definitely going to watch the documentary. James Oberg is a very mainstream and diehard NASA-can-do-no-wrong journalist who's a vehement advocate that none of the videos or photos of the Apollo landings could possibly have been clever Kubrick recreations, and that Moon Landing 'conspirators' are no better than Flat Earthers. Moreover, he's a UFO debunker. I do have to say that I don't trust him, or very much like him.

[Ravenlocke]

And here is this one ,

The Cosmonaut Coverup

🔵 Title: The Cosmonaut Coverup
🔵 Summary: This documentary posits the theory that Yuri Gagarin was not the first man in space, that he was preceded by another Soviet cosmonaut whose identity was kept secret ... until now.

Narrator: Adam Menken
Written & Produced by: Elliott H. Haimoff, Scott J. Stillman, Barbara M. Sharp
Music: Steve Yeaman, S.A.Y. Music
Year Released: 1999

Thanks to: J.P.L., N.A.S.A., National Archives, The Planetary Society, Rockwell International, Johnson Space Center, Cambridge Science Prods, UCLA Film and TV Archives, Russian Documentary Films, Soviet Propaganda Films, Ilyushin Aviation Complex, Vladimir and Marie Ilyushin, McDonnell-Douglas Aerospace, Dr. Dennis Ogden


q--g1sr7Kmw

[Jaak]

I copy-paste some stuff from one Estonian researcher who claims that Germans were the first ones to go to space (both american and russian space programs came from germany ) .Most of the links were dead that he provided because he posted it in on forum 20 years ago but some links still worked .

On November 9, 1989, the Berlin Wall fell, ending one of the most shameful periods in European and world history.
Along with the wall, the infamous entity called the DDR also disappeared. The doors of the prisons and detention facilities of the repressive apparatus of this regime were opened.
The archives of the local security police, the STASI, became accessible.
In 1990, 90-year-old Guido Goldiz was released from a closed prison hospital.
What he revealed aroused great interest in the international press.
The old gentleman, a former distinguished Wehrmacht fighter pilot, had to present to the public facts that prove that in 1943, Germany was the first to send a man into space.
As proof of this, he had some yellowed photographs of himself and his colleague Rudolf Magnus Schröder in spacesuits among SS officers at a training ground.
It should be mentioned that the old man's words were also confirmed by some archival materials preserved in the STASI and Moscow.

During World War II, several top-secret rocket technology centers existed in Germany.
The Sonderstab SS led by SS General Hans Kammler and its Abteilung C were the Ebensee center in Austria (code Zement) , the Nordhausen center in Germany (code Mittelwerk) and Zip in Austria (code Quarz) .
The work of these centers resulted in the creation of, among other things, the guided ballistic missile A-4 (code Aggregate-4), better known to the general public as the VAU-2 .https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V-2_rocket
On July 1, 1945, a group of senior military specialists from Soviet Russia arrived in Peenemünde - one of the main German missile ranges.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peenem%C3%BCnde
They were simply shocked by everything they saw.
They could not even imagine such a level of technology and rocket technology, much less see and understand it. Not only VAU-2, but also a whole series of small tactical missiles like
"Rheintochter" http://www.luft46.com/missile/x4-9.jpg
"Rheinbote" http://www.luft46.com/missile/f55-1.jpg
"Wasserfall" http://www.luft46.com/missile/wfall-4.jpg
"Taifun". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taifun_(rocket)
One of the most prominent and talented Russian designers R.F. Bolkhovitinov could not believe his eyes - in the conditions of war chaos, the Germans had managed to create rocket engines of such power and other related technology.
In recent years, Soviet Russian scientists had created liquid-fueled rocket engines for use in experimental aircraft, with a thrust of up to a few hundred kilograms, but here, on the site, the engines created by the Germans stand, according to modest calculations, with a thrust of 20 and more tons!!!
And what is this "projectile" that it has to lift into the air?
By quick calculations, the payload of the rocket, assuming it takes off vertically, was 12-14 tons.
Using equipment, materials, and documents brought from Germany, the Soviet secret laboratory's recruited collaborators managed to uncover unexpected details about the work carried out by the Germans.
It turned out that in 1941, at the Peenemünde rocket center, the Germans had prepared a draft project for creating a powerful rocket system to carry a person into space.
In 1943, this project was implemented under the name A-9/A-10 http://www.luft46.com/jhart/jha9-2.jpg.
Later, it received the collective name project VAU-3.
The A-9, the second stage of the rocket system, was a winged variant of the A-4 rocket (better known as the VAU-2) with a sealed cockpit for the pilot. http://www.luft46.com/jhart/jha9-5.jpg
The first stage of the rocket system used the A-10 rocket, with a height of 18 meters and a launch weight of 75 tons.
The total weight of the A-9/A-10 system was almost 100 tons, at a height of more than 30 meters. (For comparison, the same parameters and characteristics were achieved by the Americans with their intercontinental missiles "Atlas" and "Titan" 15 years later).
In 1941, the A-4 cruise missile passed tests, which achieved a flight range of 600 km.
The missile covered this distance in 17 minutes.
By 1943, these criteria were significantly improved.
The tests continued.
Fragments of documents have been found that some of them were carried out with a person on board.
It is a known fact that the head of the Wehrmacht special forces group Otto Skorzeny was ordered to create a group of military pilots to pilot rocket technology.
The created group included 100 experienced military pilots.
Thus, Germany had at its disposal a unique weapon, far ahead of the rest of the world in terms of development.
A piloted missile capable of penetrating the atmosphere and reaching outer space.
From space, it was already possible to hit any target on the entire globe without interference.
The pilot had to eject before reaching the target.
Unfortunately, one factor began to work against the Third Reich's space program - time. The ring around Germany was gradually tightening.
The head of the Peenemünde center, Wernher von Braun , realized that if the space program was not implemented now, it might never happen.
Therefore, he proposed to the Führer to use his system A9/A10 to bomb New York.
The operation began to be prepared under the code name "Elster".
On the night of November 30, 1944, a special commando was sent from a German submarine to the American coast with the task of installing a navigation beacon on some of the skyscrapers of New York.
However, by pure chance, the saboteurs were discovered and neutralized.

At the end of the war, the people and technical documentation associated with A9/A10 disappeared without a trace along with Hans Kammler's Sonderstab C.
Although the Americans got the entire equipment of the Nordhausen underground factory, along with samples of "semi-finished products" and Von Braun, the chief designer of Sonderstab C subproject V , and the Russians got the Ebensee underground factory, plus Von Braun's deputies led by Helmut Grötrupp, neither side was able to reach the level that Germany had reached in 1941 for fifteen years.

Apparently, the main actors remained faithful to their ideals and disappeared along with Hans Kammler.

The world, however, only learned about the project and its success in 1990, when the German old man, the first person to go into space, appeared before the public...

***Here the story continues to german flying saucers (Flugscheibe) and other things like Vril and Haunebu that used electromagnetic motors for propulsion but thats a bit too long and probably not for this topic .
http://thebiggestsecretpict.online.fr/ufo/HAUNEBU_I_plan.jpg