Animals vs Humans

[Mike]

This thread is inspired by some back n forth between a few members on the Dodo thread..

Do you prefer animals to humans? Or vice versa?

My brilliant but totally unresearched theory is as follows:
If you prefer animals to humans, there is something very wrong with you. And if you prefer humans to animals, there may still be something wrong with you but chances are it's less wrong than whatever's plaguing the lady with 17 cats or the guy who refuses to put his dog in a separate room after it's humped your leg for 15 minutes.

I truly appreciate animals but I am not an "animal person". If you have more than 2 cats I will unreservedly judge you. If you're that person who can't bear to go to the grocery store without loading all 3 of your dogs into the back seat, I want to punch you.

There is a point where pet's become less of a loving companion and more of an emotional crutch. Where is that point? Hard to say but we know it when we see it. There is a trend now of people taking their pets everywhere. I originally thought they were therapy dogs of some sort, but the people with them don't appear handicapped in any way, for the most part. I want to approach these people stealthily and chloroform them, and then drag their lifeless bodies to the nearest psychotherapist for the guidance they so dearly need.

Emotionally wounded people collect things. That's why so many are hoarders. Some collect cats, or dogs. I'm not totally convinced that they do that because they love animals so much, though I'm sure they find their presence comforting. They do it because they need companionship and they can't collect humans. It takes courage to develop human relationships; humans don't unconditionally love; humans can hurt or wound..emotionally and mentally; human relationships require much more emotional and mental depth, and the payoff isn't always immediate..

My theory is that people who value animals more than humans have lost the will to connect with humans. They've lost their courage. They know what they'll get out of the animal on a daily basis but fear the emotional and mental unpredictability of the humans they're avoiding. The more meaningful relationship is to be found with humans but it's also the riskier approach. The animal person has lost the will for that type of investment I think.

Of course I'm not talking about all animal people here. I'm painting with some broad strokes but I think I'm onto something

[Harmony]

I don't think there is a simple answer. There definitely seems to be people who try to turn their animals into people and even dress them up and take them for rides in a pram, even if they can walk well etc. Tthat would fall into the category of a needy, dependant type of relationship.

Some folk seem so admirable rescuing and caring for mistreated and homeless animals in a world that is already far from 'wild and natural' so the relationships now can only be a domesticated kind of relationship. Or sometimes a release into wild areas that can support tnem. We can learn from animals and they from us sometimes. I like to think we can live with animals with a respect for our differences.

I have a lot of empathy for animals and have cared for many wild animals off and on to be released into the wild and also enjoyed domestic animals companionship along with family and friends and I am sure my life is richer for those experiences.

I think it is natural to step in to help when we see animals that have no voice in this world, just as we would step in if we saw a child or innocent person being mistreated.

I have shed a tear or two with some dodo videos you posted Mike :heart:

[Mike]

I don't think there is a simple answer. There definitely seems to be people who try to turn their animals into people and even dress them up and take them for rides in a pram, even if they can walk well etc. Tthat would fall into the category of a needy, dependant type of relationship.

Some folk seem so admirable rescuing and caring for mistreated and homeless animals in a world that is already far from 'wild and natural' so the relationships now can only be a domesticated kind of relationship. Or sometimes a release into wild areas that can support tnem. We can learn from animals and they from us sometimes. I like to think we can live with animals with a respect for our differences.

I have a lot of empathy for animals and have cared for many wild animals off and on to be released into the wild and also enjoyed domestic animals companionship along with family and friends and I am sure my life is richer for those experiences.

I think it is natural to step in to help when we see animals that have no voice in this world, just as we would step in if we saw a child or innocent person being mistreated.

I have shed a tear or two with some dodo videos you posted Mike :heart:


Oh hey, let me tell you, I've shed some tears watching those Dodo videos too!:) They're incredibly heartwarming.

I've shared apartments over the years with friends who had dogs that I grew pretty close to. I still think of one quite often - Merlin - and with great fondness. I genuinely loved that dog.

I do want to make a distinction here between animal owners who cherish and love their animals and those that are bizarrely attached and emotionally dependent on their animals. The latter tend to mistake that emotional dependence for love, in my view. Their dogs or cats are kind of an obsession, at the expense of family and friends. I think pets should compliment one's life, not *be* one's life. If one actually prefers animals to humans, I think that's a sign that things have gone off the rails a little

[Le Chat]

Animals don't have agendas and give love unconditionally.

[Brigantia]

If one actually prefers animals to humans, I think that's a sign that things have gone off the rails a little

I beg to differ with that. Animals are straightforward, they don't lie or cheat. (I was going to add steal there, but if you leave a slice of meat unattended, it just might go missing...)

I prefer my cats to my brothers, who are a nasty piece of work. Thankfully I have some amazing friends.

What I don't do with my cats is anthropomorphise them, they are cats with cat natures and I honour that. IMO it is the utmost cruelty to dress them up, just look at their facial expressions in photos with them in 'cute costumes' - they absolutely hate it. That seems to be a trend that started in the US and has unfortunately migrated to Britain.

[Mark (Star Mariner)]

I agree Mike, and Brigantia, there is definitely an unhealthy psychological component in play with those who use animals as a prop for their insecurities, or a substitute for healthy human interactions. But there is another type of human, a rare type, in regards to Human/Animal relationships.

There have been spiritual studies on the specialities of the human soul, most famously by Michael Newton in his books. There are teacher souls, guardian souls, healer souls, warrior souls, and so forth. Another is 'animal caretaker souls'. These are souls whose express concern is the welfare of the animal kingdom on earth, and they spend their incarnations doing almost entirely and only that. One quickly thinks of Diane Fossey, Steve Irwin, David Attenborough - but they aren't all on TV. I'd expect these special souls to be everywhere, and I think it's worth adding them to the equation. But that notwithstanding, I think your original theory, Mike, is fairly accurate.

A basic thought experiment to compare 'animal caretakers' to 'animal lovers' and to separate the two. Both are driving their car down the road. Both see a dead or dying dog lying in a ditch. Both stop to render aid. Later, whilst driving further along the road, both see a dead or dying pigeon on the shoulder, but this time only one stops to pull over.

[Mike]

Animals don't have agendas and give love unconditionally.


Absolutley. And that's why they're so wonderful and often emotionally therapeutic for humans.

What I'm saying is, the ease with which we love and are loved by them can become a distraction - or an addiction in some sense - to those who are avoiding more meaningful relationships with humans because of the fear of getting hurt perhaps and just the energy investment involved.

I can totally understand preferring animals to humans *at times*, when you're just sick to death of people and need a bit of an escape. But when that becomes a chronic behavior, I believe it's a problem


Star that's an important distinction to make (between the type of person I'm describing and the Steve Irwin type). Thx for pointing it out. I hadn't considered that

[Karen (Geophyz)]

I have loads of animals and for the most part I prefer them to humans. They don't lie, cheat or steal. I have the courage and the ability to connect with people but I prefer not to.

[rgray222]

For the most part I prefer them to humans.

Karen, I hear this sentiment all the time and it really saddens me. For the most part, mankind is far better than they are portrayed in the media and by Hollywood.

Every time I say this...................please don't take it the wrong way, people invariably take it the wrong way but I assure you it is not said with malice. It seems to me that you are waiting for others to make the world better and that is not how it works. It is up to each and every single one of us to attempt to leave the world better than when we arrived even tho we have a heavy burden to carry while we are on this human journey.

If we all said, screw mankind I don't want anything to do with them then the human race stands no chance.

Keep in mind it is with the advent of human consciousness that creation actually occured.

[Brigantia]

One point that I'd like to add to the equation is our soul connection to the animals in our lives.

Didn't some Church Father say that animals didn't have souls? Either St Thomas Aquinas or St Augustine I think, but now I believe that we have a more inclusive attitude to non-human life. I believe that every human, animal, bird, fish, rock, plant and tree has a soul.

There's a thread about our animals reincarnating with us more than once; my contribution is here (https://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?59486-Pet-Reincarnation&p=1367889&viewfull=1#post1367889) with an update as I've made another connection whilst thinking about this thread.

[tendril]

The first thing I thought was ...what about the love affairs with the pigeons of both MC Esher and N Tesla?
But then I saw the word anthropomorphise and got all distracted. :bigsmile:

Thanks for the thread Mike. It's a mind grapple for sure. This is worthy of consideration. When it goes over the top with animals, which is fairly quickly, hoarding always comes to my mind in those situations. Which to me, is a total breakdown within a person. I see then why you suggest taking them to see a councilor.

I could never see the attraction to dressing animals up and photographing it for a holiday card. But boy is that popular, yep. So are they sending cards with pictures of who they love the most to the humans that they don't?

[Wind]

I think you have a point Mike even though I don't fully agree with everything you've said.

You either are an animal person or you're not. You can be a "dog" or "cat" person, maybe even both. I am a dog person and I think dog's are just magnificent, the saying that dog's are a man's best friend really rings true. Yes, they can be annoying too, but I would say that far less annoying than humans. It is very easy to become disappointed with humans, animals don't tend to stab you in the back.

With humans you surely can build up different kind and more intricate relationships for sure, but even there quality matters over quantity. I still couldn't say that I've ever had a better friend than a dog, if that is a sad statement about me then so be it. Maybe it is different for very introverted people than to more social ones, I am not sure. I think animals are not appreciated enough, why else would they just be regarded as objects in society, the ones other than pets?

Human kingdom is above the animal kingdom and that in a sense makes us more responsible for our brethren in the animal kingdom, we should be their keepers and by that I mean we should treat them with the respect they deserve. All life should be appreciated, including animal and human. This human body is an animal body with it's instincts too, but what makes or should make us more than a mere wild beast is our spirit. Animals have not yet developed the cunning intellect of man which is capable of great things, yet it is capable of immense cruelty too. I understand that human relationships have become more superficial and shallow, it tells something about society.

_C6CnSNdTuk

[Frankie Pancakes]

Terrifying moment pod of seven orcas SINK a sailing yacht in 45 minutes by ripping a hole in the hull and swimming off with the rudder before terrified crew flee on life raft off Portugal

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11402947/Terrifying-moment-pod-seven-orcas-SINK-sailing-yacht-45-minutes.html

https://videos.dailymail.co.uk/video/mol/2021/06/28/715148937778841737/480x270_MP4_715148937778841737.mp4

[Innocent Warrior]

Animals have the purest souls and I can see why so many people prefer them over humans, but humans are epic. I adore both humans and animals, the absence of either would be a permanent feeling of loss.

[onawah]

Many good points made here, and I wish I had seen this thread sooner.
But I'd like to add that, as children, we often feel such a great and deep affinity with animals because they seem so uncomplicated compared to adult humans.
(Which I don't think is necessarily the case, or at least, not in the way that most imagine. I have a friend who is a "pet whisperer" and some of the things that animals have told her are amazing, such as past lives they've spent with their owners, and deep insights into the causes of their owner's behavior, etc. But on the surface at least, animals do seem much simpler than humans. )
Human children have to spend so many years just learning to understand the complex and mystifying world of adults, so it's no wonder they find animal companionship to be a great source of comfort.
I think many of the people who display obsessive behavior when it comes to their pets have simply never matured enough to be able to relate fully to the adult world, or feel so threatened by it that they still identify with animals as they did when they were children, and use animals as a buffer, and to help them feel safer.
In the Native American tradition, Animal Medicine is a wonderful and mysterious power in the natural world which, if we are unaware of it, are missing out on a very rich and healing connection with Spirit.

[Mike]

I forgot about this thread...

It's always interesting to see threads you started a year or half year ago(or longer). When I read posts of mine from the past I feel like I'm prying into the mind of a ghost or something. Who is this strange man? And why did he say that bit there?:)

I prefer animals sometimes. The key word being "sometimes".

And that's perfectly understandable. We're around people all the time. And people can be utterly exhausting.

I know how this will likely sound but I'll take the risk anyway: I prefer my own company. It's not that I dislike people, in general, but I prefer to engage them in my own time and on my own terms. In fits and spurts...

Animals are wonderful. I'm thinking seriously about getting a dog actually. In my view animals should complement your life, but not be your whole world. This thread was in response to the animal obsession I see on a daily basis, i.e. people bringing animals to the grocery store, airport, and so on. All under the guise of "emotional support".

Which segues into a much larger issue, one that drives me absolutely bananas, and it's the infantilization of our society, particularly our youth. Are we really so emotionally fragile now that we have to bring our dogs to the store with us? That sort of thing.

Anyway, I think that's what I was thinking when I started the thread. But then again, who knows?:) Reading my old posts is like reading a complete stranger sometimes

[onawah]

I think many people are extremely fragile these days, and that's largely because they are so disconnected from Nature.
Bringing a dog with them everywhere they go may help them to feel a bit more connected.
And the presence of a beloved pet is also very healing and comforting, for example the purring of a cat which has been proven to have healing and calming powers.




Which segues into a much larger issue, one that drives me absolutely bananas, and it's the infantilization of our society, particularly our youth. Are we really so emotionally fragile now that we have to bring our dogs to the store with us? That sort of thing.

[Innocent Warrior]

I forgot about this thread...

It's always interesting to see threads you started a year or half year ago(or longer). When I read posts of mine from the past I feel like I'm prying into the mind of a ghost or something. Who is this strange man? And why did he say that bit there?:)

Oh man, I do the same except my reaction is brutal compared to what you wrote. I feel an overwhelming cringe at myself and it doesn’t even need to be that long ago. I don’t think it’s healthy but I have no idea of the cause. I often wonder if it’s just me or a human thing, it’s likely not something people discuss so IDK.


Animals are wonderful. I'm thinking seriously about getting a dog actually. In my view animals should complement your life, but not be your whole world. This thread was in response to the animal obsession I see on a daily basis, i.e. people bringing animals to the grocery store, airport, and so on. All under the guise of "emotional support".

Which segues into a much larger issue, one that drives me absolutely bananas, and it's the infantilization of our society, particularly our youth. Are we really so emotionally fragile now that we have to bring our dogs to the store with us? That sort of thing.

Well there’s probably some of that gong on, I think you have a point. As long as they’re good to the animals then I’m glad they have them, you know if they’re there anyway it can only help.

[DeDukshyn]

Just for consideration on this topic - its not a complete view of course, but something that needs to be considered:

"It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society"

[XelNaga]

Many good points made here, and I wish I had seen this thread sooner.
But I'd like to add that, as children, we often feel such a great and deep affinity with animals because they seem so uncomplicated compared to adult humans.
(Which I don't think is necessarily the case, or at least, not in the way that most imagine. I have a friend who is a "pet whisperer" and some of the things that animals have told her are amazing, such as past lives they've spent with their owners, and deep insights into the causes of their owner's behavior, etc. But on the surface at least, animals do seem much simpler than humans. )
Human children have to spend so many years just learning to understand the complex and mystifying world of adults, so it's no wonder they find animal companionship to be a great source of comfort.
I think many of the people who display obsessive behavior when it comes to their pets have simply never matured enough to be able to relate fully to the adult world, or feel so threatened by it that they still identify with animals as they did when they were children, and use animals as a buffer, and to help them feel safer.
In the Native American tradition, Animal Medicine is a wonderful and mysterious power in the natural world which, if we are unaware of it, are missing out on a very rich and healing connection with Spirit.

Hi onawah,

Maybe you could start a thread about your friend and her experiences with talking to animals.

I'm sure it would be rather interesting and thought provoking :heart:

[onawah]

I would love to if I knew more, but I don't know much beyond what I've already posted.
She's retired now, but I will ask her if she would send me more info.
I agree it would be interesting!



Many good points made here, and I wish I had seen this thread sooner.
But I'd like to add that, as children, we often feel such a great and deep affinity with animals because they seem so uncomplicated compared to adult humans.
(Which I don't think is necessarily the case, or at least, not in the way that most imagine. I have a friend who is a "pet whisperer" and some of the things that animals have told her are amazing, such as past lives they've spent with their owners, and deep insights into the causes of their owner's behavior, etc. But on the surface at least, animals do seem much simpler than humans. )
Human children have to spend so many years just learning to understand the complex and mystifying world of adults, so it's no wonder they find animal companionship to be a great source of comfort.
I think many of the people who display obsessive behavior when it comes to their pets have simply never matured enough to be able to relate fully to the adult world, or feel so threatened by it that they still identify with animals as they did when they were children, and use animals as a buffer, and to help them feel safer.
In the Native American tradition, Animal Medicine is a wonderful and mysterious power in the natural world which, if we are unaware of it, are missing out on a very rich and healing connection with Spirit.

Hi onawah,

Maybe you could start a thread about your friend and her experiences with talking to animals.

I'm sure it would be rather interesting and thought provoking :heart: