Theosophy [Archive] - The Project Avalon Community Forum

shaberon

11th March 2022, 04:42

Just a side note for folks,
I was listening to a recent Cliff High video last night where he was making a connection between the theosophist movement Blavatsky started and the Khazarian mafia. I won't pretend to know what that means but ironically enough the day before I eat listening to an William Cooper "behold a pale horse", and strangely enough he was saying the same thing.
Again I don't really know what to make of that.
But, I'll mention it for someone else to expand upon or clarify if the urge should present itself.

Yes, I will.

The Theosophical Society was co-founded by H. P. Blavatsky and H. S. Olcott, the first western converts to Buddhism. The eastern adepts responsible for them searched Europe for nearly a century before accepting HPB.

Two things. First of all, the rest, or the future, of the Theosophical Society has nothing to do with this. Ms. Besant was not a disciple of the same masters, she was in the hands of what HPB called "Indian Jesuits". So as to who participated and what happened, later, is not even the same subject. Original Theosophy remains in the United Lodge of Theosophy, which has no leadership, no kind of powers, won't do anything besides send you a card to say you are "associated".

Secondly, what is a "Khazarian mafia" if not a lot of wishful thinking?

No doubt, subsequent "Theosophists" might be all kinds of dukes, princes, and magisters of "Khazaria". Who knows?

The kind of thing those people are probably reaching for something like this. HPB is in part Rurikid or related to the Roerich line of the Russian Tsars. On the other side, she is Dolgoruki, another noble house, but far more mystical. It was her Dolgoruki grandfather's library that inspired her mysticism. It is also correct that as a child, "I want to be a Lady Liberty!" referring to the French character. She strongly disliked the upper class. She loved poor people. Most nobles circle the globe at their own expense, great risk, and tremendous peril right? Hah. In this library was said to have been a map from Comte de St. Germain which showed the re-organization of Europe after the Revolution. Did he know something about it, yes, a whole lot, have something to do with it, yes, as well as what happened in Russia and Schleswig-Holstein.

The later followers don't have half of her cojones. She fought and was almost killed in the Battle of Metana and said that Garibaldi was the only one who knew what was going on. It was, in fact, to restore the Bourbon monarch Victor Emmanuel! What, all these socialist revolutionaries supported a king?? That is what happened. Put that together with why Garibaldi told Abraham Lincoln to bite it, and, we are up to about half a clue.

Ms. Besant was just a good speaker (possibly even the first woman to be recognized as such in England), and, it is more or less correct that the early English socialist movement--which she left--became the breeding grounds for the Fabian Society. Then to understand England, you would have to track the Fabians and the Fascists. You get a situation of British Israelism, i. e. a swath of people starting to think it is important how British peoples are actually the "Lost Tribes of Israel", but, then, if you get ancy about "Jew scare" or "Khazarians"--chances are you will gladly reach out for the Fascist honeypot.

The actual successors of HPB and H. S. Olcott were Indian teenage children of Nobin Bannerjee.

To understand this, one must understand that from the Indian viewpoint, there is no Jewish and Christian embroilment. This kind of paranoia is not possible where no one cares, but, in slightly altered guises, it still describes the "subconscious tension" of the west.

There are a million illusions about Theosophy, sort of like Masonry. And so if we look at these, we must admit a minority, 15% or so, are legitimate followers of the original doctrines that have nothing to do with politics. The rest--who must be considered as using something like "borrowed names"--are a mixed bag that must also have about 15% extremists who *are* interested in politics and money and so forth.

And so if we bring up specific names and actual events and so forth, this can all be clarified to a large extent. But to use them as "blanket terms" is extremely devious and dangerous. It is like saying Putin spent a summer at a WEF camp. That does not make him a Klaus Schwab automaton. Adam Weishaupt went to a Jesuit school. That does not make him a Jesuit.

There certainly are examples like Propaganda Due if you are familiar with Italy, of corrupt Masonic lodges. HPB was a Mason to the extent she was handed an honorary certificate by John Yarker, he basically bowed down and said you are the mason of masons because you are so wise and powerful, and she was like "Thanks" and put it in her pocket.

If instead of "Khazarian" we just say "Zionist", then, yes, that is a tangible thing having a birthday around 1688.

If there is something more specific than "associations and connections", that would be great. Then we can tell if someone is on to something or not. In most cases we already know the common mistakes in, what I would call, a propaganda soup about all this.

onawah

11th March 2022, 05:09

It's good to have some background info...thanks to Shaberon.
All I am really familiar with is "the minority, 15% or so, (who) are legitimate followers of the original doctrines that have nothing to do with politics."

And so if we look at these, we must admit a minority, 15% or so, are legitimate followers of the original doctrines that have nothing to do with politics.

I would categorize Gigi Young as one of the latter, and there is a thread featuring her work on Avalon at:
https://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?113646-Gigi-Young-Talks&highlight=gigi+young
She and Dark Journalist Daniel Liszt often refer to Blavatsky and the small group of women in that tradition who more or less followed in her footsteps as psychics, and as pioneers in spiritual research.
I don't always agree with their conclusions, but I think they have made worthwhile contributions.
Also to Theosophy's credit, Rufolf Steiner the founder of Anthroposophy, began as a Theosophist.
He was a gifted psychic and made other worthwihile contributions, such as in early education (Steiner schools) and organic gardening (French Intensive).
A brief outline of Edgar Cayce's involvement with Theosophy here:https://theosophy.wiki/en/Edgar_Cayce

"Involvement with Theosophical Society
Edgar Cayce was a member of the American Theosophical Society for about two years. He was admitted to membership in the Birmingham, Alabama Lodge on December 6, 1922, sponsored by Mrs. Gladys Dillman and Mrs. Lucy Coonley.[15]

In chapter 15 of the book There is a River, the author Thomas Sugrue recounts Cayce’s metaphysical explorations with an Ohio printer and avid seeker in Theosophy, ancient religions, and the occult named Arthur Lammers. His cooperation with Lammers starting in the fall of 1923 in Alabama marked a turn in Cayce’s career from medical clairvoyant to esoteric philosopher. Lammers, who was familiar with Theosophical Society founder Madame Blavatsky's work wanted Cayce to delve into questions about life after death, astrology, the existence of a soul and the purpose of our lives. In one of his readings for Lammers, he provided Lammers with a whole philosophy of life, dealing with karmic rebirth:

"In this we see the plan of development of those individuals set upon this plane, meaning the ability to enter again into the presence of the Creator and become a full part of the creation.
Insofar as this entity is concerned, this is the third appearance on this plane, and before this one, as the monk. We see glimpses in the life of the entity now as were shown in the monk., in his mode of living. The body is only the vehicle ever of that spirit and soul that waft through all times and ever remain the same."[16]

Theosophists and spiritualists were always fascinated by Cayce, and the Theosophical Press and Theosophical Publishing House distributed many books about his prophecies. The Union Index of Theosophical Periodicals lists 21 articles about Cayce, and the psychic was mentioned in numerous other articles. Joseph Millard's book Mystery Man of Miracles was very influential to Dr. Shafica Karagulla, who worked with Theosophical Society in America president Dora van Gelder Kunz, as they studied clairvoyant healing.[17]

Horowitz biography of Cayce
Over the years, numerous lodge programs of the Theosophical Society in America have centered on books about Cayce's life and teachings. His son, Hugh Lynn Cayce, represented the A.R.E. in lectures at Theosophical Society lodges. For example, he spoke at the Washington, D.C. Lodge in June, 1951; Herakles Lodge in Chicago in 1956; Washington again in 1957; St. Louis in 1958; Orlando in 1964; Ft. Wayne in 1970.[18] Another son, Charles Thomas Cayce, gave a seminar, "Unlocking the Mysteries in Your Dreams," in Minneapolis in 1983.[19] The Miami, Florida Lodge offered a set of three lectures and four classes under the supervision of A.R.E. members in 1953.[20]

The TSA also shared lecturers with Cayce's organization. The A.R.E. invited Dora van Gelder Kunz to conduct a workshop in Virginia Beach on July 16-29, 1986.[21] Several Theosophists wrote important books about Edgar Cayce, including Gina Cerminara, Mitch Horowitz, and K. Paul Johnson. The pocket book "Mind as a Builder" by Mitch Horowitz is the text to a lecture by the author exploring the principle of “Mind as Builder,” a core theme from the Edgar Cayce readings and can be found online."

shaberon

11th March 2022, 07:34

All I am really familiar with is "the minority, 15% or so, (who) are legitimate followers of the original doctrines that have nothing to do with politics."

...the small group of women in that tradition who more or less followed in her footsteps as psychics, and as pioneers in spiritual research.

Very good!

Here are the ones who were closer. In the last two years of her life, HPB, for no apparent reason, entrusted all of her affairs to G. R. S. Mead. If anyone reads or follows what we call "Gnosticism", it is Mead. There was not really such a thing before him, and he kind of launched a wildfire. Also, he was involved in the *real* Palladian Rite, which had nothing to do with Albert Pike. So he was physically, personally close to her, but, in terms of following what she was doing, not really.

The horse's mouth itself is Alice Cleather HPB As I Knew Her (https://www.theosophy.world/resource/ebooks/h-p-blavatsky-i-knew-her-alice-l-cleather). Alice hiked all over the Asian hells for years to get to the Panchen Lama who verified to her that his predecessor knew HPB well. Together they reprinted Voice of the Silence, removing Ms. Besant's edits. If you want the truth as to why HPB and her original Theosophy have no legacy, read this.

Madame Alexandra David-Neel and W. Y. Evans-Wentz were also similar, although they did not know her. Mostly what we get from them is not more theosophical books, instead it is Buddhism. And then B. P. Wadia had a lot to do with what came to be understood as United Lodge Theosophy. They do not have the printing rights, which are held by the Theosophical Society, and in recent years there actually have been recants of more of Ms. Besant's edits that were protected for a century.

When we look at those final years of HPB's life, she had assembled an inner circle based on the principle that Theosophy is the Groundwork for Raja Yoga, which is shown in a small set of Esoteric Instructions. Comparatively, in the theosophical lore, it was customary for Morya to project and observe people, except for HPB, who could talk to him any time. Well, he went to a house where many of these so-called disciples were slouching around, and, let's say, he was basically disgusted. Only three or four of them such as Ms. Cleather appeared to be remotely fit for what was supposed to happen. And it basically fell apart and that was the end of it.

Bill Ryan

11th March 2022, 10:57

A fun fact (or maybe, an unproveable assertion). I'm not claiming this is true, but I'm certain of it myself.

One of my closest friends, an extraordinarily able and gifted spiritual teacher whom I've known for 34 years, told me privately that she had been Helena Blavatsky in one of her earlier incarnations. She said simply: "I made a lot of mistakes that lifetime."

norman

11th March 2022, 11:14

'The tree of knowledge of good and evil' comes prominently to mind when I consider all I've learned about theosophy from Daniel Liszt's X series.

My gut feeling is that it's NOT good stuff.

I was completely ignorant of it's existence before Daniel Liszt brought it to my attention. That's true of many things I didn't know about before my current 'era' of sniffing around the internet catching chatter of people who've had their heads in books and academia and all manner of cerebral quests to enlightenment. I'm really kinda glad I was a late starter,

shaberon

12th March 2022, 08:09

"I made a lot of mistakes that lifetime."

What is true in this case is that for most of these examples, we can compare *both* sides of the issue, i. e. persons such as the Coulombs and A. O. Hume and so forth, and compare these with reactions and responses from the theosophical-friendly side.

There were also things that could be called "successes", like the re-unification of what was then Ceylon, which, of course for the most part, no one would care about that. The ongoing human, anthropological story as it continues to unfold through more people, is almost all "mistakes".

shaberon

12th March 2022, 08:24

'The tree of knowledge of good and evil' comes prominently to mind when I consider all I've learned about theosophy from Daniel Liszt's X series.

My gut feeling is that it's NOT good stuff.

To form a nucleus of Universal Brotherhood with a very racist society during the process of it committing the Rape of India?

Do these orders from 1881 not still seem peculiarly current?

The world in general and Christendom especially, left for two thousand years to the regime of a personal God as well as its political and social systems based on that idea, has now proved a failure.

Should we devote our selves to teaching a few Europeans fed on the fat of the land, many of them loaded with the gifts of blind fortune, the rationale of bell-ringing, cup-growing, of the spiritual telephone [and astral body formation], and leave
the teeming millions of the ignorant, of the poor and despised, the lowly and the oppressed, to take care of themselves and of their hereafter the best they know how. Never. Perish rather the Theosophical Society with both its hapless founders than that we should permit it to become no better than an academy of magic and a hall of occultism. That we the devoted followers of that spirit incarnate of absolute self sacrifice, of philanthropy, divine kindness, as of all the highest virtues attainable on this earth of sorrow, the man of men, Gautama Buddha, should ever allow the Theosophical Society to represent the embodiment of selfishness, the refuge of the few with no thought in them for the many, is a strange idea, my brothers.

To be true, religion and philosophy must offer the solution of every problem. That the world is in such a bad condition morally is a conclusive evidence that none of its religions and philosophies, those of the civilised races less than any other, have ever possessed the truth.

Does the Liszt version sound like that?

How many millions of human beings are forced to beg for friendship from someone who is trying to kill them? Right now??

norman

12th March 2022, 11:34

'The tree of knowledge of good and evil' comes prominently to mind when I consider all I've learned about theosophy from Daniel Liszt's X series.

My gut feeling is that it's NOT good stuff.

. . . Does the Liszt version sound like that?

Not really, no.

Daniel Liszt paints a picture more like it's an eruption of 'intuitive' dabblers tapping into an ageless knowable body of worldly truth.

His own fascination with the subject isn't exactly clear to me, but my observer's take on it, so far, is that i's a kind of 'Luciferianism Lite' . . . and who knows, considering how little any of us really know yet, I may have to drop that word 'Lite' later.

onawah

13th March 2022, 06:29

If Edgar Cayce's work can be considered as an example of what Theosophy taught, consider this outline of that work on the wikipedia site at: https://theosophy.wiki/en/Edgar_Cayce

***********************************************
"Pioneering work
Cayce was a significant pioneer in many disciplines that have gained widespread acceptance since his death:

The value of dreams as a tool for self-understanding and guidance. He saw dreams as a safe and reliable work to explore one’s own soul.
The importance of meditation as a spiritual discipline. He evolved an approach that was easy to apply to the Judeo-Christian world.
A perspective on reincarnation, karma, and grace that is potentially acceptable to the Judeo-Christian world. He presents reincarnation as an inescapable reality of how the universe operates. Karma can be softened by the influences of grace available to all souls.
An approach to astrology that recognizes past lives and the influence of the planets, especially with regard to helping people find a sense of purpose in life. He used the influence of the planets as a way of describing innate temperament and its impact upon the personality and aptitude.
[22]
According to Cayce’s reading we live in an orderly universe that is governed by universal laws. Humanity has a purposeful place in this universe, and there is a plan for us as souls: to bring the qualities of spiritual life into the material world consciously. That plan requires that we make proper use of two great gifts that God has given each of us: a creative mind and a free will. [23]

Edgar Cayce emphasized in his readings the importance of staying healthy with careful, consistent application of certain fundamental principles, among them the need for balance, and an awareness of the creative power of our attitudes and emotions in shaping the condition of our physical body. Healthy living also means having positive, supportive, and loving relationships with other people. [24]He also pointed out, that we need to understand that the various systems of the physical body – the nervous system, the circulatory system, the endocrine system, and the internal organs – are interconnected profoundly. A disorder in one system can cause problemss in another; achieving balance and harmony in one system can benefit the others. We also have to remember that each of us is made up of a body, a mind, and a spirit that are interconnected. For healing to be total and lasting, we need to work on integrating all three aspects of ourselves. [25]

In his readings Edgar Cayce pointed out that a succession of lifetimes makes it possible for the soul to move towards oneness with God while taking responsibility for its choices. Karma is more than debts to be paid; it is a matter of soul memory, even memory stored in the unconscious mind. We tend to repeat old patterns until our free will consciously decides to create new patterns of thinking, feeling and acting. It is not important to remember details of past lives but to focus on the challenges and opportunities in our current lifetime, employing reincarnation as a tool for understanding how and why everything happens for a reason. In addition, for each lifetime the soul comes into the material world it has a mission that includes work to help transform itself for the better as well as work that transforms the world for the better. Finding and using the soul’s talents through self-study is the key. [26]

Cayce’s approach to the soul and spirit demands that we take responsibility for our own lives. Often, the circumstances in which we find ourselves are of our own making, sometimes stretching to previous lives. Similar to Theosophy, Cayce’s premise was that there are two sides to ourselves: The personality (familiar identity) and the individuality (the authentic self). Healthy living requires that we learn to forge a deeper connection to our individuality, and the process begins by paying attention to our purposes, intentions, and ideals. Two disciplines support this work: meditation (listening to the divine within) and self-analysis through dream interpretations. [27] Soul development involves maturing into a certain way of being in life: present, patient, helpful, loving. It is learning how to put aside one’s personality and willfulness and instead waken to one’s individuality and willingness to serve God. [28]

In his readings Cayce also points to a new way of understanding Christ. He distinguishes between Jesus, the most recent incarnation of a soul who had many lifetimes on earth, and the universal Christ Consciousness, the awareness of the oneness of all life. Christ Consciousness resides in the unconscious mind of each soul, waiting to be awakened by free will. [29]

The Essence of the Cayce Philosophy
1) Everything is connected – all is one: Once we perceive this unity it is our challenge to apply this understanding as practical mystics.

2) Life is purposeful: Each of us is born with a personal mission, a “soul-purpose”. There is an aspect of service to soul-purpose.

3) Approach life as an adventure: Life is meant to be a playful search for the truth; it is research in the broadest sense of the word.

4) Be noncompetitive: show compassion: Nothing takes us away quicker from the sense of oneness, and therefore from our own soul-purpose, than the drive for competitiveness. Compassion is the capacity to be present for another person and experience how we are all really the same. It is a matter of feeling with another person, not taking responsibility for that person but being responsible and responsive to that person.

5) Take responsibility for yourself: Help is available but no one else can fix things for us. Ultimately each soul is accountable for itself. The principle of self-responsibility is a cornerstone of Edgar Cayce recommendations.

6) Look ahead rather the back: The present and the future cannot be understood outside the context of the past but in essence he was saying to always look ahead and never back and understand that you are going to come back again. We should make choices that will help create the best possible results in the next lifetime.

7) Changing anything starts with an ideal: Motives, purposes, and ideals are the center of Cayce’s psychology. If we want to change anything in life we have to start at the motivational level.

8) All time is one time: Sometimes we get hints about the deeper mysteries of time (e.g. a precognitive dream). If we pay close attention to our inner lives, we might find clues that time is more complex than we think.

9) Success cannot be measured by material standards: Measuring success, especially in terms of one’s soul, is elusive because we cannot use the same standards for measuring the internal and external life.

10) Courage is essential to any spiritual growth: High aspirations and ideals are not enough, we have to do something with them.

11) Evil is real and comes in many forms:

a) A lack of awareness – a deficit in conscious awareness
b) Extremism – we need to watch for our own tendency to go to extremes
c) Aggression and invasion – all human relations have the potential for these forms of evil
d) Transformation – stay engaged with anything ungodly and keep working to transform it
e) Rebellion and willfulness – we choose every day how to respond to evil; the focus is on our behavior – are we going against the impulse to bring the spirit into the material world.
12) Learn to stand up for yourself; learn to say no when it is needed: It is similar to self-assertion and setting boundaries. [30]

Atlantis
Atlantis is a legendary tale that has provided one of the most intriguing and enduring mysteries of all time. Plato wrote the first known account of Atlantis ca. 355 B.C in two of his later dialogues, Timaeus and Critias. The narrative involved actual historical figures and contained other accurate historical elements as well. Plato’s story of Atlantis comes from the tradition of orally handing down an important story from one generation to the next. [31]

Edgar Cayce and Atlantis
Speculations and debate on Plato’s Atlantis started the moment he first related the tale and have never stopped. Beginning in the 1800s, however, a completely unique set of Atlantis ideas emerged and the most influential of these came from Theosophy. Blavatsky’s Atlantis speculations are primarily described in The Secret Doctrine. Like Plato, Blavatsky wrote that civilizations are periodically destroyed by cataclysms that result in changes in the earth’s surface, but she added that each new root race springs forth from the destruction. According to Blavatsky, the third root race was called Lemuria and it began some 18 million years ago in the Indian and Pacific Oceans and the major remains today are Australia, the islands of the Pacific, and portions of California. The development of the fourth root race – Atlantis – greatly overlapped with the Lemurians, and Blavatsky indicated that a major destruction of Lemuria occurred 4,25 million years ago. [32]

How is the legend of Atlantis connected with the Edgar Cayce life readings? The 2500 life readings in file were given for approximately 1600 different people. About 700 of these people had incarnations in Atlantis that influenced their present lives. There was a coherent, non-contradictory series of events in those readings. According to Cayce, many individual souls who had one or more incarnations in Atlantis are reincarnating in this century, particularly in America. Along with technological abilities, they bring tendencies for being extremists. Often, they exhibit individual and group karma associated with selfishness and exploitation of others. Instead of a continent destroyed in a single day, as related by Plato, we get glimpses of men’s activity in a land wrecked by at least three major upheavals at widely separated times. [33]

In the readings it is revealed that Atlantis, located in the area of the Atlantic Ocean stretching from Gibraltar to the Gulf of Mexico, was first occupied by an advanced race of humans in 210,000 B.C. By 50,000 B.C., the country had developed an advanced culture with strange technology. Cayce’s Atlantis was a maritime culture throughout its entire existence, trading with nearly all of the other lands of the world. Plentiful natural resources existed on the temperate islands. Temples were constructed in the cities. One fascination with Cayce’s Atlantis concerns a mysterious crystal, similar to a laser-like device, because it became the reason for the struggle between two factions, the peaceful spiritual group, Law of One, and the Sons of Belial, who worshipped self-aggrandizement, sought power over others, and practiced human sacrifice. Cayce’s story of how the destructive forces were unleashed is entwined with the mysterious crystal. [34] "

*****************************************
Such knowledge has proven useful, imho, in better understanding humanity and our history.
But if we are truly at the tail end of the Kali Yuga (which seems likely), it would have taken a lot more than a philosophy and a handful of Theosophists to transform the current paradigm at this time.
However, Cayce did not heed the warnings that have come from various spiritual sources about the dangers inherent in using one's psychic powers, particularly without adhering to a strict spiritual discipline.
The wikipedia article goes on to say:
*******************************************

"Edgar Cayce did not pay much attention to the rules of diet he so stringently recommended to others and he was also a chain-smoker. [35]Throughout 1941 and 1942, readings repeatedly warned Cayce about his poor diet, high blood pressure, respiratory problems, and various lesions and other obstructions in his intestinal tract. The warnings came as no surprise to his wife Gertrude and his secretary Glady because of his high-fat diet, his smoking, and a lack of sleep. At time, the “Source” even appeared to be angry with Cayce’s inability to better take care of himself. It was a tragic irony that Cayce didn’t act on the advice given, probably due to the ever-increasing demands being placed on him after the publication of There is a River which brought many new members to A.R.E. in 1943. The deluge of publicity brought an estimated 4,500 requests for readings and a lot of dollars for the organization. He was over-extending himself until he was stopped by a stroke in August 1944. He gave his last reading on September 17, 1944 for himself. Everyone present was counseled to be at peace. Recommendations were given for Cayce’s physical comfort, but little else. He passed away on January 3, 1945. His wife Gertrude followed him on April 1, 1945. [36]"

TomKat

13th March 2022, 13:02

Women & the Theosophical Movement: Pioneers, Visionaries, Leaders
Susanne Hoepfl-Wellenhofer
Premieres Mar 10, 2022
Theosophical Society
117K subscribers

"As anyone familiar with theosophy knows, the movement’s early leaders included two prominent women: Helena Blavatsky and Annie Besant. Female leadership was highly unusual in spiritual and religious organizations at that time, so naturally the organization attracted other powerful women who also contributed to the spreading of Theosophical ideas. Join us to find out more about three such women—Constanze Wachtmeister, a contemporary of Helen Blavatsky, Wanda Dynowska, a contemporary of Annie Besant, and Dora Kunz, co-creator of Therapeutic Touch and former president of the society— and how their contributions can inspire our work in the 21st century.

Watch more videos on Theosophy here: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list...

Susanne Hoepfl-Wellenhofer was born in Austria and has been living and working in the U.S. since 1986. Even before finding Theosophy in 2010, she had been following her own spiritual path, comparing religion, science, philosophy, and psychology for over 20 years. She is currently the president of the Washington, D.C. Lodge and recently created a course for the Online School of Theosophy. She has a law degree from the University of Graz and a master’s degree in educational technology from George Washington University, where she worked for 20 years before retiring in 2019. She continues to translate German to English, including texts from Theosophist Dr. Franz Hartmann, and she is also a yoga instructor. Learn more at spiritualityconsciousnessandme.com.

This program was made possible thanks to the generous support of Sydney MacInnis. To learn about sponsoring a program, contact us at giving@theosophical.org."
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Theosophy is one of the schools of Luciferianism, like Benjamin Creme's Share International, that are always trying to take over popular mysticism in furtherance of world government. Their publishing company, Lucis Press, was changed from Lucifer.
Krishnamurti saw through them and is more worthwhile reading.

Wind

13th March 2022, 23:06

Krishnamurti saw through them and is more worthwhile reading.

Krishnamurti was groomed since childhood, yet he didn't want the mantle of a spiritual leader, Maitreya. He went on to change the world in a different way and many can attest that he was one of the greatest thinkers in the last century. I can't claim to be an expert on Theosophy, I have studied it only a litte and have known something about Blavatsky and Leadbeater, not so much about the others such as Besant, Bailey etc. I was mainly interested in Blavatsky because she seemed to know about Atlantis a lot just like Cayce did. It seems to me that theosophists got many things very right, but also some of their info was not quite correct.

Rudolf Steiner didn't agree with some of the things either with the theosophists and moved on to form his own branch, the Anthroposophical Society which is still in quite good standing. About Steiner I know some things, but that's also a subject I haven't studied very much. Anthroposophy wasn't exactly my cup of tea either, many of Steiner's ideas and views were revolved around the teachings of Goethe.

What actually makes me curious is the fact that did the Great White Brotherhood actually exist with the Mahatmas such as Morya or were they actually just the imaginations of Blavatsky, as I lack the knowledge on this subject I am not convinced either way quite yet.

shaberon

14th March 2022, 03:37

His own fascination with the subject isn't exactly clear to me, but my observer's take on it, so far, is that i's a kind of 'Luciferianism Lite' . . . and who knows, considering how little any of us really know yet, I may have to drop that word 'Lite' later.

Correct.

To begin with, the name Lucifer was for example that of a Catholic bishop in the 400s. The idea that it is something diabolical is perhaps from Paradise Lost?

For the most part, it is an alternate name for Venus.

Behind this is basically Gnosticism, the followers of which were eventually exterminated as heretics.

In the nineteenth century, the Rosetta Stone was discovered, which led to a kind of semi-gnostic revivalism which is the major basis of the French Rites in Masonry. That is why these kinds of groups were considered better candidates for "the real teaching". Of course it is not real Gnosticism. The Gnostics are the Druze and Mandeans, and you cannot join them, because they are closed societies.

Theosophy only provides knowledge about this, it does not say to do any masonic rites, and from the very beginning, HPB distanced herself from what would become The Golden Dawn and anything of that kind.

The difficulty I had when I realized it was not "restoring the Mysteries" or any of those grand ambitions or magnamanious ceremonies or really anything in western magic at all, was that it did not actually even provide any kind of spiritual practice.

It was only by following the personality of HPB to the very end, instead of going through others' opinions about her, that it becomes perfectly clear that her intention was to train disciples in Raja Yoga. However, this never really got off the ground and was not the course of action followed by the organization that "replaced" her.

She has used a general Indian name for something while herself being actually Buddhist. And so she is a step short of actually being able to explain or promote Buddhism because it is new to her. However she worked for Morya who with respect to the Indian Vedantic systems says:

We never were Adwaitees.

Morya worked for the Mahachohan, who had no interest in spreading anything other than Buddhism. It is completely correct that Tibet at the time was undergoing an internal purge of what it considered charlatanry and sorcery. Lhasa was an international center which for example had an exclave of about a hundred Muslim families. However, Europeans, or, particularly Franks and English or Pelings had been banned since the Ming Empire. Their international relations did have standing friendly terms with various Indians such as Sikhs and some of the Yogis, with respect to whose doctrines, Morya says:

Are nevertheless in error.

HPB's Theosophy only has the ability to introduce you to Raja Yoga in a tolerant way that at least prevents you from assuming that followers of all creeds are idiots.

She claims to represent not "the" but "a" Yogacara school. Well, then, If I have been a Buddhist Yogacara devotee for over thirty years, I am in a position to respond to what little she says about it. And in this case I would say she is on the right track but she is not infallible. She probably does have a few mistakes, but, these are not really the same as most of the rumors about her. Compared to the fact that Europe would hand her an honorary masonic certificate of the highest kind, she was not allowed in the inner sanctums of Lhasa.

Well then the famous Nalanda University is "the" Yogacara school, which is not "a" school, but more like a cluster of various kinds. In actuality, even though this was a Buddhist institution, the teaching of Buddhism would have to be described as something like a "higher education" that sat on top of all of the Indian classics and Hindu mysticism. You could go to it and never become Buddhist and just learn a trade. HPB cannot even be accused of being a Buddhist evangelist, and she does actually have a lot more knowledge and experience about India and the world. So I find her more representative of the ancient Nalanda system. I would not find her that great of an authority on how Buddhism really works, but, she is at least aware of the main way in which I personally train.

shaberon

14th March 2022, 04:06

Theosophy is one of the schools of Luciferianism, like Benjamin Creme's Share International, that are always trying to take over popular mysticism in furtherance of world government. Their publishing company, Lucis Press, was changed from Lucifer.
Krishnamurti saw through them and is more worthwhile reading.

Correct.

Krishnamurti was intercepted when he was about six years old by CWL.

Ms. Besant was an intellectual who came under the influence of what we might call orthodox Hindu forces similar to Dayananda's Arya Samaj. Although this was originally the main hope and plan for the Theosophical Society, it turned into a kind of fascist nationalism for which he was kicked out and the Mahatmas' response was:

We will stop him.

CWL was according to Gandhi, "a liar and a diabolical necromancer".

*He* is responsible for what is *called/known as* Theosophy.

ULT includes none of this. Just Blavatsky and W. Q. Judge.

Alice Bailey worked in a hospital in India for a few years and did not really know the ULT doctrine. In her last year she joined the "Back to Blavatsky" movement. She also attempted to join Shuddha Dharma Mandala, which is an Indian group promoting itself as the Spiritual World Government. It is not known that she ever even got an answer from them, but, it is an easy inspiration for her version of it.

I am sorry that all of these blasphemers of the holy name of Maitreya are going directly to hell for eons.

Krishnamurti and many others are what you would call pedophile victims.

I do not know what to do about the difficulty of ULT Blavatskayan Theosophy being stuck with a similar name as that used by others. I can say that by its own definition, it never gained any successful disciples of any other Europeans. Could not be more detached from anything after its time period.

shaberon

14th March 2022, 06:02

What actually makes me curious is the fact that did the Great White Brotherhood actually exist with the Mahatmas such as Morya or were they actually just the imaginations of Blavatsky, as I lack the knowledge on this subject I am not convinced either way quite yet.

Yes but not exactly. Definitely not with that name, which probably comes from Shasta, California.

Subba Row distinguished between the Northern and Southern branches of Indian occultism, which were in partnership. By "nothern", he mainly means "Tibet", which can accurately be described as able to give orders to its members.

The South Indian Lodge is almost undetectable but there was a Master Narayan who lived near Madras.

The Theosophical Mahatmas were well-known in many places from Ceylon to Benares because they were pilgrims who frequently inhabited caves.

Pilgrimage is an ancient institution of India. Something like a bunch of circuits all wired together. Dayanand Sarasvati actually did spend years hiking across the Himalayas until his shoes wore off. He was accepted as a disciple at Bhadrinath. This is not a permanent temple; there are meetings which happen following astrological events. That actually is how that works. Well, he got this name Sarasvati from his initiatory guru. This is also a historical person. In fact we can easily trace his co-disciple or "spiritual brother" who became Kashi Naresh, which means advisor to the Maharajah of Benares. He was met by famous personalities such as Mark Twain and Alexandra David-Neel.

That aspect is completely real. B. Swami (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swami_Bhaskarananda_Saraswati) has a page:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/ee/Swami_Bhaskarananda_Saraswati.jpg/394px-Swami_Bhaskarananda_Saraswati.jpg

There is an inscription in Bihar from 1773 which refers to an emissary from the Panchen Lama to the Maharajah of Benares. The motto of the original Theosophical Society is the motto of the Maharajah of Benares.

The best example I can give you for international affairs concerns the British bombardment of Alexandria. In retrospect, it does not sound like the worst possible holocaust happened, but, it was expected they were going to attack there, and they did.

Koothoomi said that some Tibetans had been dispatched along with Sikhs and Druze to assist the occultists of Alexandria and "what they are guarding".

By inference, I would guess it would be the full set of "Books of Hermes".

They do claim some kind of partnership of occultists, even "one or two" in almost all of the countries. Serapis Bey said there were five lodges named after Solomon and so forth.

If Gnostic heretics had been exterminated, then, what you are left with could be described as periodical resurgences of the Druze element from the Byzantine sphere.

It goes like this.

In 1879 there was a Papal Bull on the Johannite Heresy. Around this time, the Jesuits offered HPB 10,000 Francs to shut up about Jesus.

Now you will notice there was a *mistaken* Templar heritage that was circulated in Freemasonry in 1736 and was ultimately rejected by the grand inter-continental assemblies of the 1770s.

The Vatican knows more. They understood that the Templars and some of the Hospitallers were Johannites.

Well, the Hospitallers were able to continue on Malta. This Johannite initiatic system was originally successful with the alchemists of Prague in the 1400s and then the Medici Renaissance of Tuscany, which all ran into difficulties and it mainly moved to Vienna, temporarily, and then stationed in Berlin, for a while. Eventually it was totally chased to St. Petersburg. Malta ceased to operate as such after Pinto, and the ensuing organization after it being real Knights is who knows what, some kind of political apparatus that is no longer the same thing.

You can see this reflected in the fact that Greek Masonic revolutionaries were aware of and opposed to the British system.

Mandeans are Johannites who blame all the deviations on "the followers of Jesus".

So there is a problem of "identity control" of the "real Jesus" going on within what has nominally been a "dictated doctrine" for centuries.

The pest of Gnosticism as a whole is going to lead someone through, was there a real one? Just like the Gospels, which already seem a little contradictory? And HPB predicted that something like the Nag Hammadi trove would come up.

Then you can see a shift at this time, which was perhaps discovered in America. The Catholic Church in general and the Jesuits since the 1500s are known for this iron-fisted "Jesus is just so" and repent or die and all that.

With newer, experimental political systems, a new strategy was revised saying:

We will work with any weak, watered-down form of Jesus.

Suddenly, it is ok for a North American shaman to Eagle Dance for the Lord in almost any way he chooses.

Suddenly, the Jesuits are Catholics, and they can also be anything that has Jesus in it. Such as--Alice Bailey's material.

In those hands are the U. N., C. F. R., and things of that nature.

But from the view of original Theosophy, all that is happening is:

Exactly what we warned you about.

You did not "stick to the original". That is what was asked.

ULT is not a power or political anything. The superiors that were behind it, however, are. This "spiritual advisor" role used to be standard in Asian politics, in some cases with the Rajas or even Maharajas being, themselves, disciples. The Mahachohan of Theosophy would be such an advisor to the Dalai Lama. This however is a very ancient office.

Around the year 750, the famous figure of Buddhism named Padmasambhava entered Tibet and went around subduing demons with Vajra Kilaya. At the site of Samye' he encountered Pehar the most powerful King Gyalpo. Do you know what this means?

Well, the Gyalpo is a class of Angry Ghost which is produced when a king dies in a state of having betrayed his country.

Our faith tells us that the power of the Buddha makes the spirit yield and swear an oath to protect us.

Do you understand this? Our teaching says that there are Four Kings who are standing in the position of what you would call the gates of death. They are really present in life, and, they are present in death. They are all extremely dangerous. Pehar is the King of Kings. Control of the Pehar is in a tulku who was originally a Nyingma lineage and became part of the Gelug order.

Does this make sense? We are saying it is a fact in nature, like snow or centipedes, and it is part of everyone's inner psychology to which our practices are geared at a similar form of control as done by the mighty Padmasambhava.

That is not Enlightenment, but it is part of the power of the Buddha.

The ULT is nothing, but real yoga lineages definitely intertwine with politics and power.

onawah

19th March 2022, 01:16

More about the development of Theosophy, Anthroposophy, Edgar Cayce and the "Mystery Schools" from Dark Journalist Daniel Liszt's perspective on the research, and how they are still affecting current events, as well as the dark side of those current events, and how Atlantis comes into it.

AUTEC In The HotZone Ghislaine Atlantis Search:Dark Journalist X-122
Mar 18, 2022
DarkJournalist
129K subscribers

"AUTEC: Atlantic Undersea Test and Evaluation Center
Join Dark Journalist Daniel Liszt for a Special LiveStream deep investigation of AUTEC, the Underwater Area 51 located on Andros Island in the HotZone area of the Bahamas where undersea contractors are under orders not to reveal underwater ruins that reveal an advanced culture. DJ reveals that convicted British socialite and Deep State operative Ghislaine Maxwell and the late human trafficker Jeffrey Epstein used her Ocean conservation company TerraMar as a front for recruiting top scientists into their search for Atlantis."

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=wP_lceSyYgQ

(Also posted here: https://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?102135-Dark-Journalist-Joseph-Farrell-UFO-X-Factor-Black-Budget-Secret-Space-Network&p=1489057&viewfull=1#post1489057 )

cannawizard

19th March 2022, 04:51

Women & the Theosophical Movement: Pioneers, Visionaries, Leaders
Susanne Hoepfl-Wellenhofer
Premieres Mar 10, 2022
Theosophical Society
117K subscribers

"As anyone familiar with theosophy knows, the movement’s early leaders included two prominent women: Helena Blavatsky and Annie Besant. Female leadership was highly unusual in spiritual and religious organizations at that time, so naturally the organization attracted other powerful women who also contributed to the spreading of Theosophical ideas. Join us to find out more about three such women—Constanze Wachtmeister, a contemporary of Helen Blavatsky, Wanda Dynowska, a contemporary of Annie Besant, and Dora Kunz, co-creator of Therapeutic Touch and former president of the society— and how their contributions can inspire our work in the 21st century.

Watch more videos on Theosophy here: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list...

Susanne Hoepfl-Wellenhofer was born in Austria and has been living and working in the U.S. since 1986. Even before finding Theosophy in 2010, she had been following her own spiritual path, comparing religion, science, philosophy, and psychology for over 20 years. She is currently the president of the Washington, D.C. Lodge and recently created a course for the Online School of Theosophy. She has a law degree from the University of Graz and a master’s degree in educational technology from George Washington University, where she worked for 20 years before retiring in 2019. She continues to translate German to English, including texts from Theosophist Dr. Franz Hartmann, and she is also a yoga instructor. Learn more at spiritualityconsciousnessandme.com.

This program was made possible thanks to the generous support of Sydney MacInnis. To learn about sponsoring a program, contact us at giving@theosophical.org."

pUmXD7-wD30

i find their take on "maitreya/ajit" a refreshing angle to meditate upon~

Bo Atkinson

19th March 2022, 12:27

Thanks shaberon (https://projectavalon.net/forum4/member.php?29736-shaberon), your explanations fit with my preferred readings about Theosophy, except for one thing, that is, to underline its underlying purpose. According to my moderated understanding, it was meant to connect eastern and western life understandings, and one difficult part of which, was ripe for that time period, that is, to introduce the basic idea of harmonizing western sciences with eastern consciousness practices.

In short, Blavatsky had a task to perform, and it was successful in tearing down many barriers which had formerly blocked the way. Succeeding generations could then bypass world-view blockages, regardless of how expedient Theosophy appeared.

The stalemated life-after-life, the savoring of diverse cultures and oppositions, repeating eon-after-eon, has needed abrupt breakthroughs. Otherwise, we’d be living the instigator and victim forever. Mankind trips out in the deep.

Theosophy could fill one gap. Whereas direct interference with free will of mankind would violate the laws of life. Expediency by colorful individuals appears to lawfully gain some ground, and avoids another folding of tectonic plates, just like Atlantis. What is our choice? Live with it.

onawah

19th March 2022, 22:25

Agreed, but I really don't think there is any way to "avoid another folding of tectonic plates, just like Atlantis".
Consciousness is powerful, but I don't think humanity as a whole is currently nearly advanced enough to change cosmic cycles.
Or many (if any) ET races with that capability, for that matter.
Though there are surely some who can avoid incarnating here when there is another catastrophe taking place
And some who will intentionally remain and survive, in order to ensure that humanity doesn't have to start all over again from scratch.

Thanks shaberon (https://projectavalon.net/forum4/member.php?29736-shaberon), your explanations fit with my preferred readings about Theosophy, except for one thing, that is, to underline its underlying purpose. According to my moderated understanding, it was meant to connect eastern and western life understandings, and one difficult part of which, was ripe for that time period, that is, to introduce the basic idea of harmonizing western sciences with eastern consciousness practices.

In short, Blavatsky had a task to perform, and it was successful in tearing down many barriers which had formerly blocked the way. Succeeding generations could then bypass world-view blockages, regardless of how expedient Theosophy appeared.

The stalemated life-after-life, the savoring of diverse cultures and oppositions, repeating eon-after-eon, has needed abrupt breakthroughs. Otherwise, we’d be living the instigator and victim forever. Mankind trips out in the deep.

Theosophy could fill one gap. Whereas direct interference with free will of mankind would violate the laws of life. Expediency by colorful individuals appears to lawfully gain some ground, and avoids another folding of tectonic plates, just like Atlantis. What is our choice? Live with it.

shaberon

20th March 2022, 07:23

it was meant to connect eastern and western life understandings, and one difficult part of which, was ripe for that time period, that is, to introduce the basic idea of harmonizing western sciences with eastern consciousness practices.

In short, Blavatsky had a task to perform, and it was successful in tearing down many barriers which had formerly blocked the way. Succeeding generations could then bypass world-view blockages, regardless of how expedient Theosophy appeared.

Well, yes, actually that is quite accurate.

Understatement.

Theosophy is a weapon. It is training in how to combat Dogmatic Religion and also Materialism of the Dead Souls variety. One could perhaps call those Jesuitry and Aristotle. It is pretty specific about this.

Rather than a method of tearing down civilization, the net result is much as you say, something more of a hybrid of those two extremes which is more like a blend of material and consciousness. In fact in this sense it is said Matter alone is reality. There is an example where Koothoomi praises a book by Baron D'Holbach, who was a minor Materialist Philosopher around or shortly after Voltaire. D'Holbach however had essentially written that consciousness is inseparable from or is an aspect of matter. If you follow the progress of, that, intellectual scene, one will find this idea gained little traction.

HPB said that her precursor was Franz Mesmer.

The Mahatmas were very enthusiastic about Crookes and the discovery of Plasma. They said if he tried again, he might have gotten the fifth. If he had gotten the sixth, they would have "taken him and bound him to secrecy". I do not think the direction of investigation is what science calls the Fifth State of matter these days. It is probably more related to the operation of plasma in the nebulae as the nurseries of stars.

I do not really know how science would measure it with a device. I understand the doctrines, themselves, to which I am not sure there is any device other than the human organism.

How exactly this "goes against religion" is a matter of degree. The most dangerous beliefs are things like Millenialism and Armageddonism, but those people would not be likely to read Theosophy and reconsider. But yes it is fishing for some way for indisputable facts to dispel crusader-like enforcement of religious dogma. The general idea is that most real religions have a mystical side which actually is beneficial, but this is not usually the one that is taught.

Unfortunately most of us are heavily in the grip of Materialism unfolding itself in some rather difficult ways these days. It seems likely in this case that another Russian is going to give it a rebuke.

shaberon

20th March 2022, 08:02

Agreed, but I really don't think there is any way to "avoid another folding of tectonic plates, just like Atlantis".

No, probably not.

But, probably, almost the same war was fought in Atlantis that we are fighting today.

The amount of mostly self-inflicted damage to be experienced could be staggering. If we look at how bad human beings have been treated by other humans, on purpose, it is like an appeal to the Angel of Mercy for extinction. We say that no type of moral crime has any escape from its eventual consequences.

Is the consciousness principle of David Rockefeller:

sitting in his office on his seventh heart?

packed in the Ice Hells of the Comet Field for a Long Time?

both?

all of the above?

There are probably a lot of followers to be added on to his resume'. Meanwhile people everywhere are anything from swindled to killed by ongoing moral crimes. This amounts to telling us that our work has barely begun.

onawah

20th March 2022, 09:08

The kind of human behavior that characterized Atlantis and the present is assuredly influenced by cosmic cycles.
Just as a full moon affects human behavior, only more so.

Agreed, but I really don't think there is any way to "avoid another folding of tectonic plates, just like Atlantis".

No, probably not.

But, probably, almost the same war was fought in Atlantis that we are fighting today.

The amount of mostly self-inflicted damage to be experienced could be staggering. If we look at how bad human beings have been treated by other humans, on purpose, it is like an appeal to the Angel of Mercy for extinction. We say that no type of moral crime has any escape from its eventual consequences.

Is the consciousness principle of David Rockefeller:

sitting in his office on his seventh heart?

packed in the Ice Hells of the Comet Field for a Long Time?

both?

all of the above?

There are probably a lot of followers to be added on to his resume'. Meanwhile people everywhere are anything from swindled to killed by ongoing moral crimes. This amounts to telling us that our work has barely begun.

Bo Atkinson

20th March 2022, 15:49

Agreed, but I really don't think there is any way to "avoid another folding of tectonic plates, just like Atlantis".
Consciousness is powerful, but I don't think humanity as a whole is currently nearly advanced enough to change cosmic cycles.
Or many (if any) ET races with that capability, for that matter.
Though there are surely some who can avoid incarnating here when there is another catastrophe taking place
And some who will intentionally remain and survive, in order to ensure that humanity doesn't have to start all over again from scratch.

onawah, if I may add...

In Isis Unveiled, (Blavatsky) the words "Atlantis" and "annihilation" appear many times, but are not predictive for our time specifically. Cosmic laws are worth study, but I find them indicative of some possibilities for brotherhood or androgynously we could just say "unity".

I feel that whistleblowers are successfully shaping a bit of the narrative and keeping up with most of the shifty shenanigans. We even have a synergetic design science to inspire new structures for better living.

Mankind still bears large numbers at the barbaric stage (of psychological development), to keep the autocrats somewhat aware that they risk unforeseen reactions and losses, when stupid games are played. They avoid an assured mutual destruction.

Through cross-incarnations, (which are not personally chosen), the public unconscious state is at least dimly conducive to the best presentations which call for peace on earth, and a fair share for what was truly earned.

Bo Atkinson

20th March 2022, 16:05

[...]

HPB said that her precursor was Franz Mesmer.

The Mahatmas were very enthusiastic about Crookes and the discovery of Plasma. They said if he tried again, he might have gotten the fifth. If he had gotten the sixth, they would have "taken him and bound him to secrecy". I do not think the direction of investigation is what science calls the Fifth State of matter these days. It is probably more related to the operation of plasma in the nebulae as the nurseries of stars.

I do not really know how science would measure it with a device. I understand the doctrines, themselves, to which I am not sure there is any device other than the human organism.

How exactly this "goes against religion" is a matter of degree. The most dangerous beliefs are things like Millenialism and Armageddonism, but those people would not be likely to read Theosophy and reconsider. But yes it is fishing for some way for indisputable facts to dispel crusader-like enforcement of religious dogma. The general idea is that most real religions have a mystical side which actually is beneficial, but this is not usually the one that is taught.

Unfortunately most of us are heavily in the grip of Materialism unfolding itself in some rather difficult ways these days. It seems likely in this case that another Russian is going to give it a rebuke.

Blavatsky uses the word mesmerize a lot, with lower case 'm', and it looks to me she has implied the will power in a positive person, along with freedom from emotionality, and furthermore, along with some explanations of reality extended into the field of magic. I simply study books like hers by use of word searches in free PDFs, which is an easy way for anyone to study, (and Iconsider other external sources as well).

Crookes was an associate of Tesla, back in those days, and the word ether was commonly used in physics, and discussed in a variety of ways. Ether was supposedly disproven in Einstein's day, but it is again resurfacing, as many questions and observations have not been adequately resolved.

In any event, the expressions of HPB resonate a bit with excerpts of contemporary research into the nature of reality and whether we can further extend our perceptions with an etheric science, by uses of ever advancing electronics, or devices of some kind. I see many avenues are searched by individuals showing promising results, too varied to summarize quickly.

Yes, there is some over indulged materialism, with the followup profiteering on anything that sells and enriches. Futurist humor can smile on the half cocked sense perception which is blind to the etheric spectrum, which has been missed nearly completely, outside rare instances. HPB touches on some of this from her perspective of the then breaking news of photography as follows, with more developments as yet to come even today:

From page 1405
If the sensitized plate can so accurately seize upon the shadow of our faces, then this shadow or reflection, although we are unable to perceive it, must be something substantial. And, if we can, with the help of optical instruments, project our semblances upon a white wall, at several hundred feet distance, sometimes, then there is no reason why the adepts, the alchemists, the savants of the secret art, should not have already found out that which scientists deny to-day, but may discover true tomorrow, i.e., how to project electrically their astral bodies, in an instant, through thousands of miles of space, leaving their material shells with a certain amount of animal vital principle to keep the physical life going, and acting within their spiritual, ethereal bodies as safely and intelligently as when clothed with the covering of flesh? There is a higher form of electricity than the physical one known to experimenters; a thousand correlations of the latter are as yet veiled to the eye of the modern physicist, and none can tell where end its possibilities.
ISIS UNVEILED BY H. P. BLAVATSKY VOLUMES I AND II 1877

onawah

20th March 2022, 16:43

Cayce saw the future clearly, as his predictions demonstrate by continuing to mainifest in reality.
What he foresaw in terms of catastrophic earth changes, along with what genuine (not "paid for") science reveals cannot be discounted in regard to understanding and predicting cosmic cycles.
See:
ihwoIlxHI3Q

That doesn't mean that humanity's future will not be brighter, but the transition period into the new paradigm is not likely to be easy.
Much will depend on who survives and on what they manage to preserve.
It's all happened before, many times, and apparently we all signed up for it, whether we are aware of it or not...

Agreed, but I really don't think there is any way to "avoid another folding of tectonic plates, just like Atlantis".
Consciousness is powerful, but I don't think humanity as a whole is currently nearly advanced enough to change cosmic cycles.
Or many (if any) ET races with that capability, for that matter.
Though there are surely some who can avoid incarnating here when there is another catastrophe taking place
And some who will intentionally remain and survive, in order to ensure that humanity doesn't have to start all over again from scratch.

onawah, if I may add...

In Isis Unveiled, (Blavatsky) the words "Atlantis" and "annihilation" appear many times, but are not predictive for our time specifically. Cosmic laws are worth study, but I find them indicative of some possibilities for brotherhood or androgynously we could just say "unity".

I feel that whistleblowers are successfully shaping a bit of the narrative and keeping up with most of the shifty shenanigans. We even have a synergetic design science to inspire new structures for better living.

Mankind still bears large numbers at the barbaric stage (of psychological development), to keep the autocrats somewhat aware that they risk unforeseen reactions and losses, when stupid games are played. They avoid an assured mutual destruction.

Through cross-incarnations, (which are not personally chosen), the public unconscious state is at least dimly conducive to the best presentations which call for peace on earth, and a fair share for what was truly earned.

Delight

21st March 2022, 03:33

What do you suppose about how there is something we wishfully think concerning some realm that is not in heaven but we imagine is utopia where there is brotherhood and connection to EVERYTHING and bliss. Why do I feel we do not need suffering to progress as wise beings BUT we do crave to make "progress". Theosophists in order to know God, have faith in God. The seeker has moved beyond "is there a God?", and ACCEPT that there is spiritual dimension that is real. However, the mind is limited and projects its content onto an unknown.

I was raised in a family where my great grandmother and my grandmother studied Theosophy. My experience of these people is that there was no visceral connection to God, just mental speculation. God is held far away and the wise ones must translate our understanding. Visceral connection to God has a belly laugh and a simpiciity.

IMO the HUGE original machination expressed in EVERY style of investigation of GOD and our relationship to the spiritual is making us DOUBT our own inner contact wth the mystery, the mystical. MENTAL astral projections of thought forms have become insufferably convoluted and fixed. The INVERSION of any sense is only possible when people are without SOURCE.

As they say: "Those who can't teach..."

I think we are now pretty much living in the astral plane and are choked by the thought forms we created. We just cannot seem to let go into the SILENCE and void of "no Thing" and insist on thinking and thinking more and more thoughts. WE seem to agree on some archetypes like a natural hierarchy which is Divine and reflected on earth.

For instance... there is a fixed idea in mankind of the stratification of value. We will Humans BELIEVE in a royal "divine right to rule" and BELIEVE in AUTHORITY being almost God Given. We exist in the atmosphere I call essential feudalism. People are not equal. Might makes right. One wants to be free but ingrained is the idea that some will be victimized Serfs and some harsh Lords which we hate but cannot forget. We accept there is INJUSTICE and wrongs to be righted and we are in need. Saviors are needed. So we have the KING and Christians have projected Christ as a King.

IMO the astral realm is where we meet the archetypes and the content of all that could be THOUGHT. Thought makes things on the material. Therefore IMO the astral is part of the material realm and one can be lost in matters of the mind. IMO we cannot ever think well enough to clear up our mess WITHOUT a compass which passeth all understanding.

IMO all these "nonphysical" beings are just a different style of matter and created by MIND (as we are... the humanoid form). Apparently there are SO many worlds and Buddhists in other places?

One cannot read enough or think enough or follow enough form of ritual to KNOW God. One can believe in God and never know and just think about it all. IMO all these doctrines ae futile if they are needed. Its only when we do not need them that they be of value as corroboratoion (OR NOT) of a body of Mystical knowing. I believe our task here is to KNOW God. The only way to know God is beyond the astral realm Beyond "the conceived" is beyond the material.
REAL INSIGHT from Intelligent Infinity will bring back information which if we succeed To USE IT will be valuable in our created 3D/4D world. If we try to organize it as words, we use the astral languages.

It takes constant contact and IMO lots and lots of people forsake the source of Inspiration when trying to "codify" a value discovered. Take love for instance and truth as values which can be distorted by the mind. INVERTED.

IF we have the contact, we will have a sort of filter that will FIND truth in any place it is to be found. We will be be a lover. IMO what happens is that one has Principles which cut through all presentation and one is freed of interference by astral smog. Love God and be loved up. When one is contact with Divine, one sees clearly what is valuable and one has light to share.

IMO there are natural "laws"... principals that I seek to understand. I am open to being taught by God ONLY. I am a seeker.

EVENTUALLY, I seriously expect that we no longer focus attention on the astral and bring in a power greater than "our selves" to sort out the mess of all this thinking. IMO mystics are HERE and MOST not writing or reading or seeking a following, they are INTO seeking God. They are changing the world! They are bringing light by not adding so much "mental chatter" pollution. Meditation is meant to be the constant IMO in the utopia I imagine. I am really tired of projecting complexity and INVERSION.

shaberon

21st March 2022, 05:15

Blavatsky uses the word mesmerize a lot, with lower case 'm', and it looks to me she has implied the will power in a positive person, along with freedom from emotionality, and furthermore, along with some explanations of reality extended into the field of magic. I simply study books like hers by use of word searches in free PDFs, which is an easy way for anyone to study, (and Iconsider other external sources as well).

Crookes was an associate of Tesla, back in those days, and the word ether was commonly used in physics, and discussed in a variety of ways. Ether was supposedly disproven in Einstein's day, but it is again resurfacing, as many questions and observations have not been adequately resolved.

Yes those are good insights. The PDF thing reflects the fact that generally on the internet, a lot of the points we are trying to make are *not* pre-loaded on a linked website. Some are, but yes, there is a lot more to be "indirectly" found this way.

Mesmerism in this sense was kind of the opposite of "hypnosis", the word used to describe that how for example the governments of Europe were ruled by autocracy. Mesmer, himself, was slandered a few times, but, if we think of this household as being where the composers Haydn and Mozart were raised, it may seem less obscure.

Again, yes, I do not think the "ether of science" was asking the right questions compared to the "actual ether". So this has drifted off-subject like calling a Bose-Einstein Condensate the Fifth State of matter. These are, whatever they are, but do not quite seem to be the original intention of those points.

"A higher form of electricity" which is not exactly physical, can hardly be measured by any known instruments, is exactly what is being considered important here.

shaberon

21st March 2022, 08:05

I was raised in a family where my great grandmother and my grandmother studied Theosophy. My experience of these people is that there was no visceral connection to God, just mental speculation. God is held far away and the wise ones must translate our understanding. Visceral connection to God has a belly laugh and a simpiciity.

Seems likely. Original Theosophy does not itself convey any spiritual practices. And so only having this information is not all that progressive. Annie Besant was never considered a disciple of the Mahatmas because:

too intellectual.

My position is that of someone who understands Yoga from the inside, and then being able to look at "approaches" to it. And well it evidently appears next to impossible for the Victorian and Edwardian drawing-room gentlefolk. A few years down the road, when enough had transpired to clarify that the ULT position was something very different from other things that had happened, B. P. Wadia went to England as a sort of last chance at maybe establishing this clarity. He approached Dion Fortune. She was interested but decided it was "far too eastern" and abandoned it and worked her way in to Alpha Omega splinter of the Golden Dawn. And so it is hard to find anyone among them who "got it".

Here is one of the main things that Morya said they wanted to give us:

no new orders of priestcraft.

Did he say that the existing ones were to be destroyed, or that you were ostracized for being born in this or that ecclesiatical system? No.

In that sense of the word, Theosophy is indirectly recommending several spiritual practices. HPB offers personal testimony about most of them from five continents. Can Dion Fortune say she was accidentally exposed to Buryat Buddhists at a young age, no, probably not. For several years, HPB was a sort of experiential anthropologist in a way that few others could claim.

And so if we look at the way this stuff is evaluated, it is good to get the reassurance that to some extent, there are "friends everywhere", but then you might notice that you are not going to be able to just place yourself amongst the Sikhs or the Druze. There isn't a Restoration of the Mysteries. Realistically then, the number of spiritual practices that possibly could be implied by Theosophy are fewer in number.

By following such clues, we will find them in the career of W. Y. Evans-Wentz (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walter_Evans-Wentz):

Though initially a Baptist, Walter's father had turned to spiritualism and Theosophy. As a teenager, Walter read Madame Blavatsky's Isis Unveiled and The Secret Doctrine in his father's library, and became interested in the teachings of Theosophy and the occult.

At the time he was about forty:

Next in 1918, he travelled across India, covering important religious sites, "seeking wise men of the east". He met spiritual figures like Yogananda, J. Krishnamurti, Paul Brunton, Ramana Maharishi, Sri Krishna Prem and Shunyata. He also visited the Theosophical Society Adyar, where he met Annie Besant and Swami Shyamananda Giri (1911-1971).

Finally he reached Darjeeling in 1919; there he encountered Tibetan religious texts firsthand, when he acquired a Tibetan manuscript of Karma Lingpa's Liberation through Hearing during the Intermediate State (or Bardo Thodol) from Major Campbell, a British officer who had just returned from Tibet. He next met Lama Kazi Dawa-Samdup (1868–1922), an English teacher and headmaster at Maharaja's Boys School, in Gangtok, Sikkim. Samdup had been with 13th Dalai Lama during the latter's exile years in India in 1910; more importantly for Evans-Wentz, he had already worked as a translator with Alexandra David-Néel, the Belgian-French explorer, travel writer, and Buddhist convert, and Sir John Woodroffe, noted British Orientalist.

Woodroffe is more commonly known as Arthur Avalon and is still considered enough of an English authority on the Hindu tantras that he is still being taught at New Nalanda University. As we can see, this group is friendly to Mme. David-Neel. The aforementioned men are actually not bad for a relatively respectful study of eastern scriptures. However Alexandra (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexandra_David-N%C3%A9el) is like HPB if the combativeness and multi-faceted aspect were truncated into something like the following, which distinguishes her from the gentle dale folk and their halls and balls:

In 1871, appalled by the execution of the last Communards in front of the Communards' Wall at the Père-Lachaise cemetery in Paris, Louis David took his daughter of two years, Eugénie, future Alexandra, there to see and never forget, by this early encounter with the face of death, the ferocity of humans.

She had an opportunity to explore many facets:

At the age of 18, David-Néel had already visited England, Switzerland and Spain on her own, and she was studying in Madame Blavatsky's Theosophical Society. "She joined various secret societies – she would reach the thirtieth degree in the mixed Scottish Rite of Freemasonry – while feminist and anarchist groups greeted her with enthusiasm...

But:

According to Jean Chalon, her vocation to be an orientalist and Buddhist originated at the Guimet Museum.

Yes, that is so, the Guimet had Buddhist art as well as scripture, and so she was looking at medieval artifacts that were comprehended by no one around her. Well, such a curiosity grew to this point by the time she is nearly fifty:

"In 1916 she again went into Tibet, this time at the invitation of the Panchen Lama [...]. He gave her access to Tashilhunpo's immense libraries of Buddhists scriptures and made every corner of the various temples accessible to her. She was lavishly entertained by both the Panchen Lama and his mother, with whom she remained a longtime friend. 'The special psychic atmosphere of the place enchanted me,' she later wrote. 'I have seldom enjoyed such blissful hours.'

Now there is the strange common ground of a second European female, doing exactly what HPB was doing about thirty years previously, except this is more stable and her story is less secretive even though they actually "let her in". This journey lasted several years, and, what is more, she did another one when she was about sixty.

Even then, the Tibetan Lamas knew there was going to be a problem from the Chinese government. And so there were drastic internal reasons to shift away from Theosophical interests to that of self-preservation. It soon became that an HPB or David-Neel was no longer possible. There are diminishing returns when increased travel access to something that is no longer pristine cannot evoke similar results as during previous cycles.

Following the words of the Mahatmas, there would not be any addition to the ULT view until possibly around 1975. Well, it is around this time that we could say that David Reigle was probably the first person to put to task Theosophy compared to what had become known of actual scriptures and actual communication with those of the east. His conclusion was that this "message" consisted of the Tibetan diaspora into India. I would say, rather, that he was among the few who instead of attacking HPB's hodgepodge of mysticism, he took it seriously as to how it might have actually worked. His extensive research towards the Book of Dzyan (http://prajnaquest.fr/blog/) is Prajnaquest in France.

Yes, cumulatively, these people are a guide from Theosophy into an actual spiritual practice that a person could join.

Because this is what I do to begin with, then, I would say okay, I accept the ULT as a kind of English introduction and a way of saying, yes, of course this still tolerates those who are committed to other spiritual practices. In fact, if I follow my own teaching, it is going to tell me to:

Take anything from Hinduism that is beneficial.

Experience the spiritual practices of any culture you meet. To be a Mahayana Buddhist means that you take your Refuge Vow seriously, and that Buddha Dharma is your reliable guide in that as long as you put twice as much into Mahayana as you do into other systems, you are still doing it.

That is about as agreeable as anything can be while retaining its own identity.

Our system does not reveal anything it calls god, but, instead, Prajnaparamita, which could perhaps be described as the most refined intelligence and wisdom. This, of course, reflects to the fact that it is also some form of electricity which is a type of matter which is not visible from within the ordinary physical plane.

Following a form of respect and open-mindedness, I looked into what an Orthodox priest was trying to tell me the difference between Christianity and Buddhism. The fact that he does not really understand Buddhism is irrelevant. I want him to tell me what he is trying to do, and he says the goal is:

A state of grace and a type of everlasting life without sorrow.

Offhand I don't think he is making a terrible mistake, and, superficially at least, we are really doing the same thing. I disagree with his theology. I will say that if I am allowed to experience the service as a visitor, then I do find it extraordinarily beneficial. The atmosphere of a regular Orthodox service to me is similar to what Mme. David-Neel said about the Panchen Lama. It obviously should not be a problem to share a planet.

On the other hand, I am particularly averse to many other kinds of services that I have experienced. I have tried. I am no HPB but in my time I would say that I found value in Orthodox Christianity and some things in Hinduism. At the end of the day, I have most in common with those Theosophists who became Buddhists because I am also a convert, by way of not having been born in it. I just don't think I could specifically say I "was a Theosophist" beforehand. I could not say I was a Baptist or anything else. If anything, I was raised in a form of agnosticism with an edge of what you could perhaps call Confucian morality. That is all. I am not a Mason but if a heritage was forcefed to me, it would be that of Lodge Zero Mother Kilwinning (https://www.mk0.com/). And so I just want you to understand that it is similar to ULT. It does not matter what anyone wants to say, most Lodges and Rites are derivative products that are not in our control. If you ever want to try to disentangle the so-called web of good and evil in Masonry, you have to break it down almost on the level of individual people.

Yes, of course, there have been evil individuals who worked through Masonry, but here we are going to make the same point that is made in Theosophy. Almost all of the literature and knowledge in the anti-Masonic database is the same as a Jesuit strategy that became a political party in 1801. And so right off the bat let us just repeat a disinformation maxim:

You mix 85% facts with whatever you want.

Roughly, that is what you get here, and it is of course exactly this that evolves into a Fascist honeypot which is historically traceable through the Great Wars.

And so if we have this actual political heritage, then, in essence, Theosophy is a later movement that has done us a tremendous favor by explaining the threats of Jesuitry. At this point by "we" physically I mean myself and anyone else with awareness of their heritage that revolted against British rule and proceeded fervently anti-federal and anti-bank and probably went out with President Jackson. After that, "we" were still perfectly aware that there were important issues still being played out in the public arena well into the early 1900s. As this systemic shift and replacement took place, we then see that the issues have mostly been generationally forgotten. It sounds like a military application of miscegenation, which, as far as I know, is exactly part of it.

In my country, I am not sure if I can meet anyone who knows much about this type of knowledge of "successful colonial revolt". They know "surrender and forget". The fate of the pseudo-system which was repeatedly warned to us throughout the nineteenth century is now being dealt a hammering blow that we all can witness in various ways.

Bo Atkinson

22nd March 2022, 10:23

Thanks onawah for this topic and everyone here, as it is timely for me to discuss the content.

It was not asceticism but hard physical labor that earned my necessary living, (for decades), and this became really great once MP3s and free PDF libraries became available… The real seeker in me could now pick and choose on the spur, far from congested materialism. I never liked reading as a nature boy in youth, by my need to know annoyingly grew, more and more and more and more.

I count it good fortune of hard edges and pivotal failures. This helped me weed out a quest for knowledge, collected on a harmonious palette. The only big job I ever got was building this 60 ft turtle, for city kids, (as a concrete contractor, where the towns people designed it). Most of my paying jobs were moderate to insignificant.

48645

Again here is an excerpt from ISIS UNVEILED BY H. P. BLAVATSKY 1877

“ …Buddha taught it in his doctrine of poverty, restriction of the senses, perfect indifference to the objects of this earthly vale of tears, freedom from passion, and frequent intercommunication with the Atma- -soul-contemplation. The cause of reincarnation is ignorance of our senses, and the idea that there is any reality in the world, anything except abstract existence… The people of India could more readily hear of that approach, while European people strike me as more adventurous, (to discuss this politely). A kick and jumpstart with trials and errors was inevitable. Theosophy is thought a footnote, but its essential mission has echoed near and far.

The Atma-soul-contemplation has evolved other, diverse attempts at parallels in the west and beyond. Cross-incarnations may transfer our existences east and west, north and south, so that living experience adorns the unconscious, to poke at us from the wings, (of life’s stage).

So I want to recognize that I’m kinda like “a self” with four robots attached for life, (one life at a time, life after life)…. I’m wearing four robots and should avoid over indulging inside them. I never liked reading the manual, but now I gotta try and try.

The best I learned of this defines four bodies, the meat body and the etheric body, (still mostly missed by the west), which are actually one body when we discover how these two should function as one. The other bodies are the emotional body in itself, and last, the mental body, in itself. Here in the west these latter two are very tangled up and must be deliberately untangled… (Hmmm~ Hard Labor)

Helena Blavatsky and deeper esoterics actually refers to these robots as “envelopes”. Huh? Whose envelopes? The Monad’s Envelopes. (Self = Monad). Unfortunately Annie Besant may well have slightly confused the term “monad”, which may go to show that from the beginning, Theosophy was a breakthrough-in-progress, which has interruptions, and has some delays, while its subject matter is still unraveling, for those who work at it, and for those who find better parallels yet.

Delight

23rd March 2022, 03:24

IMO God is my beloved being and I being beloved. Knowing is about the QUALITIES of God being invited. It is so UNWORDY. Words are all about the definitions past. I want to shout at everyone that all the systems of which we were educated are in process of dissolution. I AM the WORD of my experience and the less words the better to move onto my preferred relationship with God. I am living in God's world and WE are experiencing all things new.

OF ALL that I observe that has truth, the Guides are speaking MOST (along with Neville Goddard form the 20th century) to what I would like to see as my experience.

Transposition of the "notes" of the song we have sung to create our transpersonal reality.

Reconciliation

Humanity is saying yes to the requirement of peace for the species to express in an ongoing way

Being lifted to the Upper room, a new octave. YES!
AND the good news that I KNOW is our faith will lead us across a bridge. YES, we look down and see the chasm. BUT we see this as our opportunity to keep walking to an UNKNOWN. The bridge is being laid and as we step forth towards what we KNOW we love and feel the JOY that God supports this and is enabling us and we just may choose to walk step by step in the moment.

HUMANITY is worth saving inclusive of those we cannot stand. We are all manifestations of a PERFECT Source who is taking us as expression of our own true nature (and a hint: Christ is us and miracles come because we know God and stand in God's light fully).

This is awesome AND i AM IN SUCH HAPPINESS CONTEMPLATING THE QUALITIES of the new SONG WHICH IS UNKNOWN. I love this talk:

vP7J3VAxA5s

9qZxB1ZW8cM

shaberon

23rd March 2022, 08:00

The best I learned of this defines four bodies, the meat body and the etheric body, (still mostly missed by the west), which are actually one body when we discover how these two should function as one. The other bodies are the emotional body in itself, and last, the mental body, in itself. Here in the west these latter two are very tangled up and must be deliberately untangled… (Hmmm~ Hard Labor)

Helena Blavatsky and deeper esoterics actually refers to these robots as “envelopes”. Huh? Whose envelopes? The Monad’s Envelopes. (Self = Monad). Unfortunately Annie Besant may well have slightly confused the term “monad”, which may go to show that from the beginning, Theosophy was a breakthrough-in-progress, which has interruptions, and has some delays, while its subject matter is still unraveling, for those who work at it, and for those who find better parallels yet.

I suppose in the general concept of Reincarnation, it is described one way or another as things coming together and falling apart, although it sounds to me that HPB had anglicized the Chains of Dependent Origination. From terms she used, The "envelopes" or "sheaths" are called Koshas (https://www.wisdomlib.org/definition/kosha), which HPB re-iterated straight from the Hindu Puranas. Nothing changed. Again almost everything she said was based on some kind of source.

"Etheric Body" is a Besant-ism which has no historical correspondence.

"Monad" is from Greek philosophy, "irreducible unit" or "atom". English Theosophy kept the terms "Monad " and "Personality", although HPB was taught to use the Sanskrit terms Amrita and Pratyeka. She never did, but, those would be significant in mostly a Buddhist sense.

HPB was quite fond of matching up Greek Systems to Hebrew and Indian and so forth, and, to a major extent, this is accurate, but she would have been unable to attach Buddhism in the same convenient way because it works differently. Most of those systems attempt to describe a scale from the form perspective, such as physical, ethereal, and so on, but you do not quite get this in Buddhism, because it is a Noumenal system.

Well, there is also a Hindu Noumenal system in Raja Yoga. So once that Dayanand Sarasvati had "defected", then his "native presence" in the TS was replaced by Subba Row, an Adwaitee. For a year or two, he argued against HPB, based from the fairly simple assertion that many of us have heard, about the Fourth State:

Waking

Dreaming

Deep Sleep

Fourth State

HPB's argument was that a seven-fold scale explains more, i. e., such as ghosts.

However instead of simply discarding the thing above as inadequate, I would still take it as crucial, as the basis of Fourfold Om. One cannot do any Yoga without this. Either the Hindu or Buddhist kind is inert without mantras. Buddhism is going to take it exactly the same way as in Chandogya or Mukunda Upanishad, and, in a sense, fractalize it. So if you want to listen to Shiva on this it's ok.

The way Buddhism becomes more advanced, is, so to speak, by sub-dividing the Fourth State. Into what? Buddhism says that these are states of consciousness:

Moment of Death

After Death

Seeking Rebirth

And so the meditation moves in a direction so that one experiences these planes of consciousness without actually dying. Subjectively these are less like scales or degrees of matter but they are like a sequence of events.

The next thing about the Besant-alike classifications is that they distinguish a separate thing called Emotional Body. This does not match any kind of Raja Yoga. Alice Bailey says you are supposed to isolate and anesthetize this so that you no longer have emotional responses. That is a contradiction to the teaching. The teaching says you are going to overcome disturbing emotions. In fact I should be more clear on this because if you are going to do it at all you have got to get the Fourfold Om and combine it with what we call the Four Roaming Virtues:

Metta--Love, Mudita--Joy, Karuna--Compassion, Upekka--Resolve.

What that means is that these qualities have their moment of focus in a meditation session, but, you are supposed to carry them everywhere with you at all times. That is how you are packing the world into a grain of sand. If someone is not doing these, they do not have the Buddhist ABCs. It does not say anything like this is a note you observe and move on. It is to sink it in to the core of your being and then you are flung to the wolves of karma.

In original Theosophy, the Fifth Plane is Akasha and it is the domain of Manas, which is the seat of mind and emotions.

The closest way that I could describe Buddhism is that *all* of its meditations run so that Manas will "marry" the Sixth Plane of Buddhi.

Therefor, spiritual practices basically all operate in Manas.

Well, because I am comfortable with Indian Buddhism, then yes I have to say it is Vedic and Puranic, quite a bit like HPB was describing. In Buddhism you constantly refer to Traidhatu or Trailokya, the Three Worlds, called Form, Desire, and Formless. And so to make this array work, then, the idea is that Form and Formless are going to be sub-divided.

In ancient times, they only said Three Worlds, Om Bhu Bhuvar Svar. But it is already in Hindu sources that they are expanded to Seven. At that point, they represent the Seven Sages, Seven Planets, and so forth, with these worlds or planes manifested as Vyahriti (https://www.wisdomlib.org/definition/vyahriti) or Words:

The vyahritis were made at the beginning of creation and represent the seven planetary systems including Bhur, Bhuvah, Svah, Mahah, Janah, Tapah, and Satyalokas. Besides denoting the seven worlds, the vyahritis denote the seven planes of consciousness. The mantras are prayers directed to the elemental forces on the seven planes. These elemental forces are manifestations of the Parabrahman itself.

In the Puranas, and already in the Atharvaveda, there are fourteen worlds, seven higher ones (vyahrtis) and seven lower ones (patalas), viz.

bhu,
bhuvas,
svar,
mahas,
janas,
tapas, and
satya
above and

atala,
vitala,
sutala,
rasaataala,
talatala,
mahaatala,
patala and
naraka

Allright. That is also in the advanced part of HPB's practical yoga introduction. And for example, in Tara's Song, there is the appearance of both Trailokya, and Sapta Loka Patala. She doesn't spit out the details, she just assumes you know what it is about. The Eighth Hell Naraka is given there but let's not go there yet. Seven Worlds and Underworlds is not obscure, is standard for any Sanskrit cosmology.

Well, if we deal with the Lokas or Worlds, does it closely correspond to Theosophy, sure. Bhu = Earth = Physical plane. The next ones would be Astral, Prana, and Kama Loka. Okay, Kama Loka is the Desire Realm. Above, this corresponds to the Great or Mahar Loka, and this is directly represented in the title of the Indian National epic, Maha Bharata. It is nothing other than an occult tale of Yuddisthira ascending through Kama Loka. So Mahar and Kama Loka are the same thing and are the environment of heavens and hells. Well, just a few sentences ago, we said we were going to open some kind of After Death vision. So this Fourth Plane is much more of an experience than it is a theory or abstract classification.

The Fifth Plane in that list is Jana or Birth, corresponding to the Theosophical Manas and Akasha.

These two planes constitute the whole meditative career of a human being, so, although one can classify higher states, for most practical purposes, they are of no use or non-existent.

Our school roughly says that if you seek them, you are following a lower order of Liberation, which is a relief to oneself only, by breaking you out of reincarnation into a passive state. And so Buddhist Yoga operates entirely different from Hindu. It is built of largely similar components, but, at an intermediate level of training then it makes its own course.

There is only one thing in Buddhism that deals with Buddhi, and, most people do not explain it. It is more or less a Moon Mirror with Manas on one side and Buddhi on the other. Otherwise, it is not mentioned directly, but only indirectly. In the Puranas, the Sixth Plane belongs to Varuna. The symbol of Varuna is a Makara, which is a sea creature having a face like a mix of an elephant and a crocodile, thought to be the original of the Sea Goat Capricorn. If you look at this glyph you will see that Capricorn is not in series with the eleven others, which are entirely made of pieces of circles and crosses; so even here, Capricorn is a mystery.

The Makara is rarely seen or discussed in our pantheon. But it is there. The following specimen is Chinese. The main figure is Sri Devi Lakshmi. I am not sure about the usual English expression, she "is the goddess of Kama Loka", because the preposition doesn't really tell me anything. Our deities are experiential, and it would probably be more accurate to say "she is the Kama Loka". On rare representations we will find her horse's bridle being led by Makara Devi:

https://har-assets.s3.amazonaws.com/item-images-resized/2000px/9/2/3/9235.jpg

So our meditational system does not really go all the way through the Seven Planes or Worlds, because that would be wrong, as a human can scarcely open the Fifth. This is the plane of Manas, and then, Buddhism adopts a Seven-fold Manas. It does not use an adjective such as "higher mind", which gives the impression of something on another plane. It says "subtle mind", implying a higher quality.

Interestingly, it copies the blueprint of Kama Loka from Hinduism, which has six planes or heavens. Here, Buddhism adds a Seventh Heaven.

At that point, all of the outer Yoga I could talk about or suggest anyone do, is really an effort to place you in the Seventh Heaven where one attempts to clear a Seven-fold Manas. That is considered what it takes to move us into the position where we can even begin to perceive Buddha's Wisdom.

Theosophy (meaning the Mahatmas) and Buddhism recognize two "bodies", physical and mental. So whatever may be above Manas is *not* a body, is formless.

Planes "under" Kama Loka are directly attached to the material cosmos. That ends in the second plane of Kama Loka, which is the residence of Indra and the Thirty-three Gods. So Form, as a whole, is Indra and everything under it.

And so what one is doing by seemingly participating as Manas which might seem to be an apparent contradiction to the fact it can be transcended...in practice it is much as if saying the Deity has Atma, I don't. And then by practice, we weed out whatever the Manas was doing, and replace it by the Deity. It is our Deity which is secretly nested in those "higher planes". Point being it can only be found through what is usually considered a rather strenuous effort.

I would say that Alexandra David-Neel actually did this, actually obtained noticeable results, and understood it well enough to minorly describe it.

On the other hand I have seen persons of a scholarly nature spend fifteen years working on a translation and admit they don't know how it actually works.

What we are trying to call Yoga is a perceptible force that has to be discovered. I do not understand how he spends all those years with the teachings which will surely reveal he is not following them, only copying the words. I could understand if your only source was intellectual Theosophy without any mantras. Alice Bailey fills this gap. She gives a lot of things that could be called prayers and meditation instructions. They are not Buddhist. It may be part of the Fundamentalism she started in.

From what I have been able to determine, systems that have Etheric Body, Emotional Body, Monadic Body, Logoic Body, etc., do so in order to make room for their authors' own doctrinal assertions. At that time it starts sounding to me like "a new order of priestcraft". Pretty soon it seems to me that we are not doing the same thing.

The actual operational Buddhist principles are the Skandhas.

A similar area where I believe HPB has made a limited mistake is in the telling of Three Formless and Four Form Worlds. Allright. This is actually the same as what we were just talking about, because since Kama Loka is attached to Form, it can simply be counted as Form like this. Same worlds. And her point follows that the Lunar Pitris are Form.

As far as I know, every other theosophical system has copied this and done something with it.

Well, again, she was trying to write in English, her fifth language, on subjects that had perhaps only just appeared in English for the first time. She was not considered fluent in Pali or Sanskrit. And so I think she over-used Horace Williams's 1840 translation of Vishnu Purana. In his own footnotes almost from the beginning, Williams tells us that this Purana seems insufficient in a number of areas.

I did not know he said that until I had already found more chapters in the Vayu and Skanda Puranas.

It may sound like some kind of technical term to us, but, here, we are stirring the entire Indian culture like a hornet's nest.

The Theosophical symbolic version is almost misleading.

The Indian version is misleading.

At a superficial level, Pitr which is of course "Father" is exoterically interpreted as "ancestors", and you keep a silver chalice to make a regular offering called Sraddha. That is part of orthodox Hinduism and has been a cultural norm for centuries.

The view of Buddhism would call something like that an "optional, outer" practice. And what you get if you pursue these more extensive Puranas--which are part of the same Indian culture but not the dominant part--is that these deities are Time.

This subject then latches itself to an utterly different Shiva than the one that is taught. It is Red and Blue Shiva also thought to be mentioned in the Atharva Veda.

Hardly anyone in the world understands this and it is thought to have been suppressed.

What happens with Atharva Veda is that it teaches how to take all the fixed furnishings of a temple, convert them into symbolic form, and then go wandering and do your rites mentally without any equipment. Red and Blue Shiva sounds a little threatening to authorities which might want to keep people subserviently packed in temples. This develops a practice called Inner Homa which is what Buddha says to do. The system that I follow directly imports this Hindu Homa system on inner and outer levels.

So if you are orthodox Hindu, you could keep your Sraddha in the way you are used to, but since most of us are not, it is not really asking you to start that kind. However, Pitrs are not Elements as seem to have implied usually in English, because they are Time, and, well, Father Time, is almost exactly what it is saying.

All I am doing is trying to explain what certain Puranas say on their own internal evidence. But there definitely is this very occult Shiva which is plain to find, although it is a bit complicated. It means Pitrs are Time, which Indians are not going to tell you.

HPB said something that most people probably took as philosophy but almost is close to a spiritual practice.

She said it was important to learn Viraj as Divine Androgyne.

That is in the Puranas, and of course the idea is that Brahma the creator then splits into male and female halves who produce the many things of the cosmos.

Female Viraj at Jaipur is possibly the oldest deity with a service.

The title Viraja is used in a limited way with only a few Buddhist goddesses.

It is also part of our Divine Androgyne, Khasama Viraja (https://soul-blade.blogspot.com/2008/09/carymelvaapradpa.html) is part of Caryamelakapradipa, i. e. Generation Stage instructions for the Five Stages of Guhyasamaja.

If you have heard of the term Vimala--Stainless, Viraj is beyond that. She is simultaneously perhaps the first Hindu Shakti tantra goddess, and, a very advanced condition in Buddhism. In terms of spiritual practices, then, we would say, Viraja must be exceptionally meaningful. Related to the foregoing, this ancient Viraja is combined with Homa:

Every fire ritual/oblation into the fire (Yagya/Havan/Homam) that we perform in the external world is simultaneously being performed within our spiritual body.

Generally, Homams are performed to bring materialistic benefits to oneself by pleasing the different Hindu deities. But there is a fire ritual that can take us away from seeking materialistic pleasures. This fire ritual or Homam is known as the ‘Viraja Homam’.

Viraja Homam is also known as the ‘ultimate’ or the ‘final’ fire oblation.

It is also known as the ‘death rite’ because upon performing it, the spiritual aspirant is considered dead with regards to his previous life/lives and with regards to all his accumulated karmas. Once he is purified by means of this Homam, he is fit to offer himself as a sacrifice to his Supreme Self.

This Homam is not only meant for spiritual aspirants or monks who wish to renounce everything and take up Sanyasa. It can be performed by everyone. However, we need to be aware that it strengthens our Viveka (ability to discriminate between right and wrong) and Vairagya (ability to remove our senses from pleasures) and it produces Virakti (disinterest in temporary pleasures of this world). It is a sincere request to our Supreme Self to help us purify our body, mind and soul.

So, you see.

There are perhaps volumes more about this but in this case we can simply give her character. In yoga you have to imagine she is really there.

In her standard appearance, Viraja is a Sulini which is a Spear Holder. This term has been overlooked on other deities where artists typically place a Trident (Trisula). This is an important Point.

Overall, Viraja is not very complicated except:

Her crown is complex with a crescent moon, a Shiva linga, Ganapati, and a snake, on her main form.

The most important iconography of Biraja Devi is in her crown. The crown has miniature Murtis of Ganesha, Vasuki – the king of Nagas, Shivalinga in a Yoni & moon. This crown brings together all the different paths that Hinduism has. Scholars interpret as all the paths eventually lead you to the Adya or Para Shakti that Biraja Devi is.

https://www.inditales.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/biraja-devi-murti.jpg

In this case, she has a Purifying mantra for the Homa. It is from among the oldest documented material like this, ca. 300 B. C. It contains several lines that are very standard and basic in Sanskrit. The last one of these tells us the Five Koshas but it has its own style:

Annamaya--Food/physical, Prana, Mano, Vijnana, Ananda.

Uma Mohan sings this in a way that is not exactly the page right out of the book. I chased down what seems to be the right rendition. The first line in this song invokes the Five Winds of Ayurveda. It has the Elements and Senses. So it is pouring out yoga doctrines.

6Bvb9l348Xc

The refrain of the song says something along the lines of:

May I become the radiant, free of dust and evil! svaha!

or:

May I of the nature of self-luminous knowledge be divested of Rajoguna (ego) and tamoguna (ignorance) and become sinless—Swaaha!

pranapanavyanodanasamana me shudhyantam

jyotiraham viraja vipapma bhuyasagam svaha || 1||

vanmanashcakshuhshrotrajihvaghranaretobuddhyakutihsankalpa

me shudhyantam

jyotiraham viraja vipapma bhuyasagam svaha || 2||

tvakcarmamamsarudhiramedomajjasnayavo'sthini me shudhyantam

jyotiraham viraja vipapma bhuyasagam svaha || 3||

shirahpanipadaparshvaprishthorudharajanghashishnopasthapayav

o me shudhyantam

jyotiraham viraja vipapma bhuyasagam svaha || 4||

uttishtha purusha harita pingala lohitakshi dehi dehi

dadapayita me shudhyantam

jyotiraham viraja vipapma bhuyasagam svaha || 5||

prithivyaptejovayurakasha me shudhyantam

jyotiraham viraja vipapma bhuyasagam svaha || 1||

shabdasparsharuparasagandha me shudhyantam

jyotiraham viraja vipapma bhuyasagam svaha || 2||

manovakkayakarmani me shudhyantam

jyotiraham viraja vipapma bhuyasagam svaha || 3||

avyaktabhavairahankarair-

jyotiraham viraja vipapma bhuyasagam svaha || 4||

atma me shudhyantam

jyotiraham viraja vipapma bhuyasagam svaha || 5||

antaratma me shudhyantam

jyotiraham viraja vipapma bhuyasagam svaha || 6||

paramatma me shudhyantam

jyotiraham viraja vipapma bhuyasagam svaha || 7||

kshudhe svaha | kshutpipasaya svaha | vivityai svaha |

rigvidhanaya svaha | kashotkaya svaha | [om svaha || 8||

kshutpipasamalam jyeshthamalalakshmirnashayamyaham |

abhutimasamriddhim ca sarvannirnuda me papmanam svaha]--not used

|| 9||

annamayapranamayamanomayavijnanamayamanandamayamatma me

shudhyantam

jyotiraham viraja vipapma bhuyasagam svaha || 10||

That summarizes and demonstrates a system, which, Buddhism is more of an extension than a rejection of it. The song is mostly just asking to purify various parts of the aura. Yoga does not tire of purification.

Bo Atkinson

23rd March 2022, 11:00

Theosophy catalyzed east-west cross fertalization.
Sanskrit literacy is not the vital offspring.
The intent and content lay there, behind.
English words expanded do just as well.
Expediency works too, through other modes.
If we only see, but what we already know,
Let us see what we are doing, to get free.
48648
I love the harmonious ideal,
to replace the over-focused self,
to bypass traditional claims
about wordy mind-tangles
with quizzes A-to-Z,
be ready tomorrow.

shaberon

25th March 2022, 08:16

English words expanded do just as well.

As a way of communication, perhaps.

But there is no such thing as English spiritual practices.

I am not sure if it is not actually dangerous to leave an open door to what Delight posted about "speculative" spirituality. But this is next to impossible to overcome without being accused of pushing this or that religion. Allright. I have a contrived polyglot language from ca. 1600s, and, if we roll back a very violent history, then, my...and probably very many people's...distant heritage would most likely have been with Cernunnos such as on the Gundestrup Cauldron (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gundestrup_cauldron):

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/86/Gundestrupkedlen-_00054_%28cropped%29.jpg/640px-Gundestrupkedlen-_00054_%28cropped%29.jpg

This fearsome creature was popularized by Eliphas Levi and is a popular Theosophical topic.

Koothoomi said he was making an extensive commentary to Levi, but, Hume, of course, soured the relationship and this material never came forward.

Whatever was going on with Cernunnos was buried and forgotten by ca. year 500.

Perhaps he is approximately similar to Shiva Pashupati from Mohenjo Daro:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/2f/Shiva_Pashupati.jpg/596px-Shiva_Pashupati.jpg

which is an old artifact from Pakistan, but that is the national deity of Nepal.

Unlike in the west, the Mughals only compressed Indian Hindus in the south, and chased the Buddhists out of the country. The western crusades were utter decimation and what did you get in exchange? A single book that could only be read by a few people. And then our English language slowly starts to coalesce.

I, personally, would advise "a spiritual lineage" to anyone. I would even say you could convert to Judaism, except I understand it has the consequence that you will not be considered equal. Theosophy really says that it is Groundwork for Raja Yoga. However the Mahachohan says that *anything* is better than *nothing*.

So far I have been unable to find enough feedback from mystical Jews or Christians or Pagans for that matter to have any insight on how those might succeed or be intended to succeed as spiritual paths or practices. We have been told they don't as the state of Grace is presumed to turn on like a switch and that's it. I don't want to seem myopic but I honestly don't know about them. Expressed in their own words in the forum. I've tried asking a few times.

As the combination, Theos Sophia, and we read this Sophia was once a spiritual practice, I don't know what happened to that, but it translates to Prajna in our system, and that is what we practice. If this gains me some understanding by mystical others, I shall try to remember that. It seems there should be a window since:

...in mystical interpretations forwarded in Russian Orthodoxy, known as Sophiology, Holy Wisdom as a feminine principle came to be identified with the Theotokos (Mother of God) rather than with Christ himself.

As one example. For the most part I am just talking about mystical experiences that anyone can do at home. Or at the mountain or whatever. Theosophy started with "magic" and moved to what it called "yoga". As a weapon it was originally deployed to combat necromancy. Before electricity, starting sometime in the 1700s, various kinds of "magic" became regular entertainment in Europe. Then in the 1800s it was seances. And so it was meant to stop this kind of thing. Same as was being done simultaneously in Tibet.

Delight

25th March 2022, 13:34

I am not sure if it is not actually dangerous to leave an open door to what Delight posted about "speculative" spirituality.

Someone somewhere speculated about a mystical (and therefore "beyond" the "mundane") experience. This was EXTRA ORDINARY and IMO IF that experience in some way "shone" such that OTHERS wondered if this might be "real", COULD lead to a "cult" OR renaissance?

Somewhere someone innately connected with a TRUTH and BECAUSE it was true, then saw it in somewhere else in others speculation. There was an inner UNDERSTOOD agreement.

Somewhere sometime, SOMEONE did not use the truth for TRUTH but to codify a LIE which would THEN justify keeping OTHERS form actually connecting to THAT which IS beyond all speculation.

Sometime SOMEONE was in control of what it MEANS to have any unauthorized mystical contact and THEY called it "sin", called the people having it "heathens" and "witches" and projected THEIR evil on Those with the ability to literally SEE THROUGH the veils.

These inquisitions and crusades cannot MURDER THE TRUTH. Sophistry cannot hide the TRUTH. I cannot tell YOU the TRUTH. Each of us can discover the TRUTH. Somedays are better than others. We who came in at an auspicious moment of "time" found documents and had contact with many sources. That is so awesome and these days we had a really good chance of connecting what we innately KNOW with what others KNOW and DISCUSS OUR experiences... That is unless our minds were grabbed by cultish imprisonment?.

Agape

25th March 2022, 14:41

I think we are all more or less like theosophists once we start explaining Vedas and Puranas in English or other mundane language but wavydome is also right,
language can be adjusted and expanded.

Even Sanskrit based scholars obviously have to use other language than Sanskrit to teach, the tradition of gurukulas based purely in Sanskrit disappeared even from India,
I’ve still met some pandits in Southern India in 1993 who spoke only in Sanskrit but asked some upstart kids recently and heard anyone who would do that in today’s modern India would be considered “elitist”( chuckles).

This really really matters only in Hindu traditions at the point,
talking from years of teaching experience:

Europeans and modern Americans love to learn couple new words from any ancient language, perhaps a verse or two but:

you can’t expect from innocent people to emotionally embrace some kind of exotic deity with attributes and presume it will resonate with them.

Considering many sensitivities on both sides of the sea, I’ve never tried to teach anything beyond what could also be explained, and understood in people’s particular mother tongue and made to work for them immediately and in long run.

Also true about theosophy and anthroposophy ( Rudolf Steiner was related to the same circles as Blavatsky) that they were spiritually highly inspired but turned to cannons of conceptuality difficult to follow or expand on unless for the authors themselves.

J. Krishnamurti was chosen by theosophists as incarnation of Maitreya, future Buddha and meant to be the teacher of “Order of Blue Star” which he dissolved as soon as he was legally capable of doing so .
He did not need to follow any specific terms or vocabulary or to follow any of their thesis , also Vedas were originally taught through oral and “mind transmissions” of pure meaning rather than by reading and to this day,
most of the authentic spiritual traditions in India are still passed from generation to generation in similar way,
whether the student or a priest become scholar or divinely inspired fool does not matter.

Sanskrit as the only “pure language” aside of old Greek and Latin is very important part of our common linguistic heritage traceable in most Eurasian languages is very important to me, personally but like every other language can be only taught and understood in proper context.

In the meantime, beings of other worlds and dimensions communicate to people in all kinds of languages.

While I can’t prove it exactly but from my own experience, Sanskrit is native tongue of at least one ( maybe more) extraterrestrial groups/civilisations who made contact with us deep in our history as well.
I’ve heard some of it “from them” and was quite surprised by the original pronunciation being harder than its current human form,
quite technical, punctual and containing plenty of “high R”.

Sorry if that’s not too entertaining but Sanskrit scholars will definitely be in advantage once we make contact “with those people”.

🙏💫🙏

onawah

26th March 2022, 00:16

One thing that I have mulled over a bit, having studied all the major religions to some extent (and having practiced Zen for a while in my youth) is the gap between the Theravada attitude of Bodhisattvas, and that of Hinayana Arhats.
I'm not a scholar of religion, but here seems to have been an old, ongoing schism (though not only in Buddhism) between those more extroverted souls who feel that being actively engaged in the world in a compassionate mode is the proper path, and those introverted souls who feel that the way can only be found by inward communion and contemplation.
Theosophy seems at its heart to be so intellectual that the tradition I would compare it to is Jnana Yoga.
As defined here: "Jnana yoga is the path of wisdom and knowledge (Jnana), involving disciplined study of scriptures and constant inquiry into the nature of self. Often called the yoga of the mind, Jnana yoga is well suited for the more intellectually inclined."
source: https://www.doyou.com/the-6-branches-of-yoga/
I gained a lot of insights from Theosophy, but with so much of it geared toward the psychic arts rather than an actual practice, it seems to be in a category of its own, and designed to be more of a series of addendums to various existing philosphies, practices, faiths, etc.
So in a way, it lacks it's own original root, and doesn't really bind together all of the above, either, though it does provide a lot of food for thought and new perspectives from which to view all that.
It circles around, infiltrates, morphs, and sometimes undermines established beliefs. and brings about a level of questioning that feels new and sometimes precarious.
Steiner's contributions through Anthroposophy seemed more fresh and original.

This makes a lot of sense to me:

The next thing about the Besant-alike classifications is that they distinguish a separate thing called Emotional Body. This does not match any kind of Raja Yoga. Alice Bailey says you are supposed to isolate and anesthetize this so that you no longer have emotional responses. That is a contradiction to the teaching. The teaching says you are going to overcome disturbing emotions. In fact I should be more clear on this because if you are going to do it at all you have got to get the Fourfold Om and combine it with what we call the Four Roaming Virtues:

Metta--Love, Mudita--Joy, Karuna--Compassion, Upekka--Resolve.

What that means is that these qualities have their moment of focus in a meditation session, but, you are supposed to carry them everywhere with you at all times. That is how you are packing the world into a grain of sand. If someone is not doing these, they do not have the Buddhist ABCs. It does not say anything like this is a note you observe and move on. It is to sink it in to the core of your being and then you are flung to the wolves of karma.

Is that state akin to the state of full Attention that Zen aspires to?
Any why, once we allow it sink in, are we flung to the wolves of karma?

Regarding Delight's post here:https://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?118086-Theosophy&p=1489423&viewfull=1#post1489423

It seems the key would have to be to find balance.

Rawhide68

26th March 2022, 01:34

"Daniel Liszt paints a picture more like it's an eruption of 'intuitive' dabblers tapping into an ageless knowable body of worldly truth."

When ever you start to cave in to someone or what
please , don't.
There is Norman.

That description nails it. Thanks Norman, thanks:heart:

Rawhide68

26th March 2022, 14:03

Teering down my own fall due to inmaintance -
I found in my bookshelf 2 and 3 of the subject spocen

shaberon

27th March 2022, 05:23

Sometime SOMEONE was in control of what it MEANS to have any unauthorized mystical contact and THEY called it "sin", called the people having it "heathens" and "witches" and projected THEIR evil on Those with the ability to literally SEE THROUGH the veils.

Basically, yes, sin of Heresy.

The program of Theosophy hammers it out in intricate detail.

The bird's eye view is that what we know as Zoroastrianism is the western branch of Hinduism, or Vedism, and that for a duration of twenty-eight Zoroasters was basically the same thing in a different accent.

Eventually their practice decayed and was replaced by a look-alike, which later contributed to Manichean dualism, which is the basis of those very harsh views about heresy and so forth, and it is this religious sentiment which carried forward in the western direction.

And yes, that is also the sense I get as to why some people are afraid of me, because they see a reflection of all the subconscious garbage they are projecting. That is a pretty good English word for it. I try my best to prevent myself from ever doing it.

shaberon

27th March 2022, 05:56

I’ve still met some pandits in Southern India in 1993 who spoke only in Sanskrit but asked some upstart kids recently and heard anyone who would do that in today’s modern India would be considered “elitist”( chuckles).

As for modern Indian society, it is mostly a sellout.

Recently a Modi story (https://sputniknews.com/20220326/website-bringing-together-inspiring-stories-about-indian-pm-narendra-modi-launched-1094217443.html) has included in his circle:

spiritual leader Swami Avdheshanand Giri

who sounds like the one associated with Ms. Besant.

The Sanskrit language has never flinched from its ongoing use in Nepalese Buddhism. This is closest to the point of view I am speaking from. Indian Hindus may be letting it slip, but one can get at Nalanda University (https://nalandauniv.edu.in/academics/):

The programmes offered include Global PhD programme, Masters in Historical Studies (MA), Masters in Ecology and Environment Studies (MSc), Masters in Buddhist Studies, Philosophy and Comparative Religions (MA), Masters in Hindu Studies (MA), Masters in World Literature (MA), Masters in Sustainable Development and Management (MBA), and various short-term diploma and certificate programmes in Pali, Sanskrit, English, Korean, and Yoga.

And so what we have found for instance with the Kumarajiva Project, is that there are a whole lot of Chinese who are very avid about Sanskrit. And so they have tried to get Indians to collaborate, but there was practically no response. The Indian disinterest is probably because all of the Sanskrit texts are Buddhist.

Considering how popular many of the Sanskrit songs I listen to, seem to be, it doesn't seem likely to fade out completely from India. The first Sanskrit work translated to English was Bhagavad Gita, which is about as grandiose of divine forms as can be made. It is not the "only language" of Buddhism, but, spiritual exercises are composed in Sanskrit. Many, if not most, translations are problematic, meaning the ones in Tibet and China. Modern critical editions of our texts are sometimes using something like twenty different originals for comparative analysis.

So for example if we look at five Chinese versions and find significant flaws in three of them, then really most things that have already been translated in the modern world might be a little off.

For the most part, it has been an academic view by people who did not really understand the practices.

The only kind of Buddhism in Nepal is Sanskrit tantric Buddhism from ca. year 600. Every other kind is like a branch of this, usually incomplete.

shaberon

27th March 2022, 07:36

Is that state akin to the state of full Attention that Zen aspires to?
Any why, once we allow it sink in, are we flung to the wolves of karma?

Regarding Delight's post here:https://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?118086-Theosophy&p=1489423&viewfull=1#post1489423

It seems the key would have to be to find balance.

My familiarity with Zen is limited. That is how I came to Buddhism first, in the martial arts, and I didn't really get it. We call this the Shaolin tradition of Bodhidharma. It is "direct". My understanding is that Zen anticipates a lot of "instant enlightenment" during day-to-day affairs.

The way we meditated could be described as Quiescence, which is Dhyana, which is Chan, which is Zen. And so yes we also use this in Mahayana but it is called a Mundane state, theoretically possible for animals. It, so to speak, is a constituent phase of meditation, but, on its own, is not viewed as able to attain anything other than Hindu Moksha or Liberation, i. e. you are released from reincarnation.

That is not how Mahayana Buddhism trains. Zen is supposed to be part of the Mahayana but I do not know how they express it. Mahayana is a school of Gradualism.

Mahayana is to take these values, Love and the others, and enter the career of a Bodhisattva which as the opposite of Moksha is an ongoing schedule of recurring reincarnation. In order to do this, one of the first things that we meditate is we literally pray for all of our subconscious karmic seeds to ripen and burst. If you are familiar with Astrology, this is a lot like Saturn Return. It is like asking for a Saturn made out of all the sins of my previous incarnations when I made a pile of bones as big as a million Mt. Merus.

And so then the positive-sounding values Love, Joy, and Compassion, get tested against the final quality of Resolve. And so that is a very real and very personal experience that we cannot exactly teach in lesson form. HPB and David-Neel had miles of Resolve which is often lacking in persons who admire the first three.

This is like Balance which is similar to a gyroscope made of the Catuskoti (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catu%E1%B9%A3ko%E1%B9%ADi) as used on the Eel Wrigglers, but mainly employed by us as the system of Nagarjuna, the Center Between Extremes. This is a vast subject if you are interested in math, but, the simple application that I follow goes something like this. When confronted by a phenomena, object, entity, etc., extreme views or beliefs are not held because one rests in the Center without holding any of these to be true:

It exists.

It does not exist.

It neither exists nor not exists.

It does not lack existence or non-existence.

The link has various ways of expressing it; as to "using" it or "living" it, someone says:

Puhakka (2003: p. 134-145) charts the stylized reification process of a human sentient being, the spell of reality, a spell dispelled by the Catuṣkoṭi:

We are typically not aware of ourselves as taking something (P) as real. Rather, its reality "takes us," or already has us in its spell as soon as we become aware of its identity (P). Furthermore, it's impossible to take something (P) to be real without, at least momentarily, ignoring or denying that which it is not (not-P). Thus the act of taking something as real necessarily involves some degree of unconsciousness or lack of awareness. This is true even in the simple act of perception when we see a figure that we become aware of as "something." As the German gestalt psychologists demonstrated, for each figure perceived, there is a background of which we remain relatively unaware. We can extend this to texts or spoken communications. For every text we understand there is a context we are not fully cognizant of. Thus, with every figure noticed or reality affirmed, there is, inevitably, unawareness. Is this how a spell works? It takes us unawares.

That is better than nothing. But we have to apply this in terms of actual difficult events. And so it is like a mental defense. It cuts off a lot of unnecessary mental reactions. They are also called the Hedonist, Atheist, Nihilist, and Eternalist.

So, that's the tool. You go around with this four-fold defense, along with four-fold qualities, which is like a Buddhist enhancement of Fourfold Om.

If you can see fluidity and dynamics here, then, most of the advanced practices are a simultaneous fusion like this.

If you can sense a pattern and a rhythm, that is what is starting.

And so I would say it is also hugely about transforming damaged emotions into beneficial ones. Ask Tina Turner. It all depends on the seeker. If we are honest then we know there are billions who are miserable. There are not really a whole lot of things that I would swear to in front of a skeptic, but, the first is that yoga really does have the potential to induce some very unusual physical and mental conditions. Not everyone can do it, but, if you have even a minor aptitude, you can. Secondly, that, alone, does not really do that much for psychological troubles. However the Buddhist goddess Tara actually does. And so by following a slightly more comprehensive way of practicing, I would say she removed those problems I personally had. Only thing I know of that works.

Well if that made me sort of road worthy, then, I got a long one full of karma. Allright. Let's say there is a distinction between when you get mad or upset about an actual event, versus just going mad or being stir crazy in your head in a neurotic or psychotic way. Such events then provoke one's Resolve. And so while this is happening I still continue to find that this practice helps me. However it involves other deities.

Along with Quiescence we are also seeking to cultivate Luminous Mind. That is its name in the Indian Books. H. H. III Karmapa Rangjung Dorje calls it Luminous Heart. This is the real understanding. And so what we might call training or outer Yoga is to move a person into this state. Because it takes a long time and is considered difficult if not incomprehensible, there is a lot of material involved. When you can do that you can do Samadhi training which is what Buddha said made Buddhism Buddhist, that other yogis did not understand.

onawah

27th March 2022, 20:53

That is quite a threshold to be standing on, staring into the maws of those famished wolves...
Thank you so much, Shaberon. That was very helpful.

The way we meditated could be described as Quiescence, which is Dhyana, which is Chan, which is Zen. And so yes we also use this in Mahayana but it is called a Mundane state, theoretically possible for animals. It, so to speak, is a constituent phase of meditation, but, on its own, is not viewed as able to attain anything other than Hindu Moksha or Liberation, i. e. you are released from reincarnation.

That is not how Mahayana Buddhism trains. Zen is supposed to be part of the Mahayana but I do not know how they express it. Mahayana is a school of Gradualism.

Mahayana is to take these values, Love and the others, and enter the career of a Bodhisattva which as the opposite of Moksha is an ongoing schedule of recurring reincarnation. In order to do this, one of the first things that we meditate is we literally pray for all of our subconscious karmic seeds to ripen and burst. If you are familiar with Astrology, this is a lot like Saturn Return. It is like asking for a Saturn made out of all the sins of my previous incarnations when I made a pile of bones as big as a million Mt. Merus.

And so then the positive-sounding values Love, Joy, and Compassion, get tested against the final quality of Resolve. And so that is a very real and very personal experience that we cannot exactly teach in lesson form. HPB and David-Neel had miles of Resolve which is often lacking in persons who admire the first three.

This is like Balance which is similar to a gyroscope made of the Catuskoti as used on the Eel Wrigglers, but mainly employed by us as the system of Nagarjuna, the Center Between Extremes. This is a vast subject if you are interested in math, but, the simple application that I follow goes something like this. When confronted by a phenomena, object, entity, etc., extreme views or beliefs are not held because one rests in the Center without holding any of these to be true:

It exists.

It does not exist.

It neither exists nor not exists.

It does not lack existence or non-existence.

The link has various ways of expressing it; as to "using" it or "living" it, someone says:

Puhakka (2003: p. 134-145) charts the stylized reification process of a human sentient being, the spell of reality, a spell dispelled by the Catuṣkoṭi:

We are typically not aware of ourselves as taking something (P) as real. Rather, its reality "takes us," or already has us in its spell as soon as we become aware of its identity (P). Furthermore, it's impossible to take something (P) to be real without, at least momentarily, ignoring or denying that which it is not (not-P). Thus the act of taking something as real necessarily involves some degree of unconsciousness or lack of awareness. This is true even in the simple act of perception when we see a figure that we become aware of as "something." As the German gestalt psychologists demonstrated, for each figure perceived, there is a background of which we remain relatively unaware. We can extend this to texts or spoken communications. For every text we understand there is a context we are not fully cognizant of. Thus, with every figure noticed or reality affirmed, there is, inevitably, unawareness. Is this how a spell works? It takes us unawares.

That is better than nothing. But we have to apply this in terms of actual difficult events. And so it is like a mental defense. It cuts off a lot of unnecessary mental reactions. They are also called the Hedonist, Atheist, Nihilist, and Eternalist.

So, that's the tool. You go around with this four-fold defense, along with four-fold qualities, which is like a Buddhist enhancement of Fourfold Om.

If you can see fluidity and dynamics here, then, most of the advanced practices are a simultaneous fusion like this.

If you can sense a pattern and a rhythm, that is what is starting.

Delight

27th March 2022, 21:47

"Once that a student abandons the old and trodden highway of routine, and enters upon the solitary path of independent thought-Godward-he is a Theosophist; an original thinker, a seeker after the eternal truth with 'an inspiration of his own' to solve the universal problems. With every man that is earnestly searching in his own way after a knowledge of the Divine Principle, of man's relations to it, and nature's manifestations of it, Theosophy is allied." - from "What Are The Theosophists?", by H. P. Blavatsky, 1879

I loved so many books over my life and read so many words. Lately I have been feeling that the "shift of the Ages" is happening. I know I am part of this shift and I LOVE God and I LOVE humanity. No one is excluded form that space I feel of belonging. There God IS. Many many people ALL over are meeting a personal relationship with DIVINE as they can understand Divine.

WHAT if we ARE being lifted? I am definitely part of the Collective that claims humanity will lift itself beyond the need to have separation, war and fear. Paul Selig's Guides speak for me. Why is it that these messages came to me independently and then are affirmed in talks like this one below?? IMO I know God. It is a PRESENCE. That does not make me special. I asked.

Maybe I am mistaken about the intimation that something WONDERFUL is unfolding? God IS and God never made junk. God never punished anyone. God never separated the light. Why would God NOT allow us to have the world of Joy, Beauty, Peace and plenty if THAT is what we truly desire?

Instead of searching tomes of philosophy, we need to search our own hearts and minds. THERE is where the trouble lies.

Usm64okGCA8

shaberon

28th March 2022, 01:14

IMO I know God. It is a PRESENCE. That does not make me special. I asked.

This is very similar to what we do. I am in the difficult position of the fact that in English, Buddhism denies God and so does Theosophy when copying this. I understand that this could be revolting to some mindsets and cause a person to quit listening. Hindus don't like it either. In this case, there is really a significant message that will go unnoticed. We are probably better off to express ourselves that we disagree with "some teachings" and "some followers". And it is not hard to find a major trend such as:

Orthodox Hinduism which attaches itself to any form of Christianity by way of almost equal identity.

This is in the vein of Bhagavata Purana as related to the well-known Krishna Consciousness and so on. The role of Puranic literature is in explaining the Vedas. The name "purana" means "ancient tradition", and so, these books made nothing, but are more like reports about beliefs from various areas. There are eighteen major ones and none of them are the same. The default understanding of "Hinduism" in the west is generally this one group, which became influential around the 1600s.

The first major and obvious difference between Yoga and most exoteric religions is on the issue of Creation or the Creator.

I think it may be compatible with a view of religion which asserts a superior Divine Architect as being above or more spiritual than the materialistic Creator. Then what we do is disassemble and reverse creation, and, so to speak, manifest that Creator aspect within the individual. This is very different from positing a type of unknown creator, to whom one attempts to serve its inscrutable mysterious will. That notion has essentially been removed and replaced.

It is this which provides the "yogi powers" that early Theosophists were interested in.

From that point, few Yoga schools really proceed in the same way. But they are all basically similar in penetrating the illusive nature of creation.

Buddhism is the same, divided into different schools of practice. Some of them do not do much other than Quiescence, but, as we see, this is limited, and isn't necessarily going to give you the same kind of Presence.

Our Kagyu system follows Prajna which as we have said is very similar to Sophia of Gnosticism and some of of the theology in the eastern churches. So it is rather this that we seek to invoke as a conscious presence. They don't usually teach it strongly enough. When I went around, there was just a short recital and then meditation based on Quiescence. You had to have the curiosity to find that the recital meant to study the whole philosophy and system and so forth. And so I have and so there is a plainer way of putting it, that she is not a philosophy or even a mantra, but, actually-manifested immanent divinity very similar to Sophia.

That is the closest way I could put it in terms of a few English theological ideas. In our view, she is not the only possible kind of divine presence, but is more like the source of them all.

This is no longer like Theosophy, because it is not an attempt to summarize all possible human experience.

At a basic level, there is a fourfold manner about transforming emotions and protecting the mind, or, rather, prevent it from building concepts, so that it just has direct, intense experience. Then we are going to attempt a spiritual practice on what you might call Divine Sophia. Finally it will bring in what are known as life winds or prana.

And so the successful practitioner enters a school of Presences. That is why we do not agree that it is limited to one teacher or incarnation. Properly understood, it is a system of Divinity similar to what it sounds like you described. I have seen a few times that the Aryas are translated as Saint School.

Most of our entire argument is the plane of Kama Loka which means Desire, which is the same question as to whether our true desires are those of peace and joy and so on. It is exactly that. Here we believe in Heaven and Hell far more affably than anyone would give us credit for. The underlying issues of how our system of yoga meditation was developed is about the experiences of consciousness, and does so from the following observation which may be familiar to anyone's theology:

Hell guardians do not experience pain from their environmental stimuli.

Hell beings do not cease experiencing pain from their environmental stimuli.

If you have any sensitivity and you look at a magnified hell situation such as Ukraine, this is Pathos which is the Compassion that we hold in our close values. Our story says that the Saint can enter Hell and by way of personal conversion, grant freedom to beings trapped there. But he cannot stop the next one from coming in the door. And so we are trying to prevent them from entering. This is why we try to make Buddhist nations or Buddhist civilizations. Almost everywhere I look, earth actually is ruled by hell forces. To pretend otherwise or remain ignorant or back down from it would be non-Buddhist.

And so I think it must resemble to some extent, the spiritual views of others, the main difference being something like having multiple sets of encyclopedias on how to do Prajnaparamita. I have had to find out myself that it should be more strongly affirmed as meaning immanent divinity, and, because I have experienced this, I can testify to it.

Bo Atkinson

28th March 2022, 11:33

My simplified, 50+ years of unrelenting, mostly unorthodox research~still unfinished– This comes from the bold perspective about “the alumni of human evolution ”, and beyond the physical-mental-emotional, having actually maintained causal-consciousness, as the alert state between our dense physical world and the succeeding worlds beyond. Possibly, could that relate to HPB’s expression: “ring pass not”?

With all due respect for Sanskrit, I barely know of a few words, even while reading a larger number quite regularly, as for example in the translation in the excerpt below, e.g. the kama loka (the emotional world), devachan (the mental world.

And yes! We do risk various kinds of heresy and actual physical targeting! Fear not. I am reminded of the 1970s Kung Fu TV series with Daid Caradine, as the martial artist priest in the wild west (cowboy days gone by). Risking the excerpt below we might open up another big, huge can of worms.

Following is an excerpted explanation of Mr Judge’s works, one of the Founding Theosophists.

14 It is no wonder that there is confusion in the minds of theosophists.

[…]

17 In the background, of course, is that term, “illusion”, of Indian illusionist philosophy (Advaita), a term that has always paralysed thought. Thus: “The ‘cell’ is an illusion... It has no existence as a material thing... physical molecules... must be leaving the cell each moment. Hence there is no physical cell.” That an exchange of primordial atoms takes place in all atoms (these composing the molecules) does not mean that the latter do not exist.

18 The chapters on reincarnation, karma, kama loka (the emotional world), devachan (the mental world), and the individual’s states of consciousness in between incarnations do not make things any clearer.

19 Judge was especially interested in the law of periodicity, discussing cycles of sundry kinds. Mostly, he did not go further than accounting for the notions of these among various peoples.

Source:
The Origin of the Knowledge and the Fictions by Henry T. Laurency. The essay is the third section of the book The Knowledge of Reality by Henry T. Laurency (http://laurency.com/). The text is a translation from the Swedish by Lars Adelskogh.

shaberon

29th March 2022, 03:46

...the alert state between our dense physical world and the succeeding worlds beyond. Possibly, could that relate to HPB’s expression: “ring pass not”?

With all due respect for Sanskrit, I barely know of a few words, even while reading a larger number quite regularly, as for example in the translation in the excerpt below, e.g. the kama loka (the emotional world), devachan (the mental world.

Well, it seems to me that a great deal of the Mahatmas' interest was in controlling the translations coming out of the east.

In their own words, the chiefs "searched Europe for nearly a hundred years" to find someone fit for the task (HPB). We can also compare this to outside sources, which verify that in the late 1700s, there definitely were Buddhist emissaries to the Maharajah of Benares in India, and there also were to Russia, as I put in this post (https://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?114491-WW3-Ukraine-US-vs.-Donbass-Russia&p=1490510&viewfull=1#post1490510) in today's Ukraine events.

Judge is considered part of ULT because of his sheer dedication to HPB. He is not an occult writer. There were no other mouthpieces other than HPB. She actually does have a good esoteric knowledge of the Puranas and Indian Yoga. In the Theosophical Glossary (https://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/etgloss/etg-hp.htm) are very many Sanskrit terms that are handled rather well. From there, we can easily retrieve something like:

Ring-pass-not The limit in spiritual, intellectual, or psychological power or consciousness, beyond which an individual is unable to pass until he evokes from within the strength and the vision to carry him forwards and over the circumscribing limits set by that individual’s own karma. In the Stanzas of Dzyan, the lipikas are said to circumscribe the triangle, the first one, the cube, the second one, and the pentacle within the egg, which is the ring called pass not for those who descend and ascend and for those who are progressing toward the great Day Be-With-Us. Also called the dhyanipasa (rope of the dhyanis or angels) that hedges off the phenomenal from the noumenal kosmos. The world circumscribed by this ring is signified mathematically by 31415 = 14 expressing hierarchies of dhyan-chohans. The imbodying monads, and men who are ascending towards purification but have not yet quite reached the goal, can cross the ring only on the Day Be-With-Us, the day when man will have freed himself from the trammels of ignorance and recognized fully the nonseparateness of his personal ego from the universal ego, and returns into conscious at-one-ness with Brahman.

To try to help her out here, those 14 hierarchies would be the Fourteen Lokas and Talas as on our previous page. It is the Egg or total aura or Hiranyagarbha. When she says "Lipika" it is not a practical term in Buddhism, but, she does actually include the correct idea in its definition:

...the Hindu four Maharajas and chitra-gupta

Her overall attempt to explain Lipika is very lofty and still speaks of greater hierarchies and so on. But this actually is fairly similar to the right explanation:

These recorders of and in the karmic ledger of the solar system mark the distinctive barrier between the personal ego and the impersonal self, which latter is the noumenon and parent-source of the former. Hence the allegory that they circumscribe the manifested world of matter within the Ring-pass-not — a mystical way of saying that they karmically circumscribe the limits of manifestation of the worlds of matter within the limits of karmic achievement for the evolving beings, and these limits form the Ring-pass-not.

These Hindu Four Maharajas are the Buddhist ones. They are the guardians of the lowest plane of Kama Loka and they speak through the Tibetan oracles that Theosophy called Chohans. And so although I am not sure what her statements about how they may be portrayed in other myths or religions...how that means anything in practical terms...it actually does match the beginning of Buddhist tantrism. Again these are not deities, but oath-bound angry ghosts that are extraordinarily dangerous. Presumably one had better be well-balanced if intending to pass those gates.

The most literal translation of Kama is Desire, as in Kama Sutra. This is not necessarily emotion, but will, at the subconscious level down to reflexes and involuntary actions.

Devachan is not Sanskrit.

In Theosophy it was frequently discussed as an After Death condition. However it is really a Tibetan name for an ancient Indian Buddhist meditation:

Sukhavati (Skt. Sukhāvatī; Tib. བདེ་བ་ཅན་, Dewachen, Wyl. bde ba can or bde ba chen) is the blissful buddha field of Amitabha.

In this context, the Buddha Fields or Pure Lands are equal to the Seventh Heaven or highest plane of Kama Loka. Each Buddha Family has its own realm there. The Sanskrit term for the collective whole is Akanistha. Sukhavati or Devachan is the most popular practice of it and can be traced to ca. year 300. In Nepal, statuary for this is everywhere, it is very much alive. Nepal has the closest to original version of what is also effectively the national practice of Tibet and Mongolia.

Devachan cannot really be a description or synonym for something, since it is the experience of a strenuously cultivated practice.

So here we have rather quickly forced Theosophy to yield the Buddhist examples of the lowest and highest planes in Kama Loka. Hinduism does not have this. It may be quite easy to draw on a conceptual chart, however it actually represents a yoga practice that would take an average, uncommitted devotee the rest of their life; others faster depending on merit and acumen. The Pure Land is still not Enlightenment, but, it is the place where Enlightenment is realized.

It matches the principle of reincarnation, since chances are that none of us will really become a Buddha in this lifetime. Then the After Death state is experienced as little other than a smooth transition through the Pure Land of one's Family until one is reborn.

The main reason for the popularity of Amitabha or Lotus Family is because it has been found to be more accessible to greater numbers of people. And so although this is perfectly valid and legitimate, it is not the only way to do it. I am happy to go over the Lotus Family material, however, there is someone who was never a Theosophist, who is, moreover, the Virgil-esque experience to be directly transferred to a practitioner. The Theosophical Mahatmas did this same yoga and spoke of it as being a tradition. And so here I am presenting the system of Tara as portrayed by one of the few who ever talked about it, from the twentieth century.

Delok Dawa Drolma (https://www.rigpawiki.org/index.php?title=Delog_Dawa_Drolma), author of Journey to Realms Beyond Death.

https://www.rigpawiki.org/images/6/6f/Delog_Dawa_Drolma.jpg

According to Chagdud Tulku Rinpoche:

My mother was revered throughout Tibet for her extraordinary powers as a lama, but she was more famous for being a delog, one who has crossed the threshold of death and returned to tell about it. Hers was not a visionary or momentary near-death experience. For five full days she lay cold, breathless, and devoid of any vital signs, while her consciousness moved freely into other realms, often escorted by the wisdom goddess White Tara. She undertook her journey as a delog according to instructions she had received from Tara in visions, but against the wishes of her lamas, who pleaded with her not to take such a risk. It is remarkable that she, a young woman of sixteen, had so much confidence in her meditation that she prevailed over very wise, much older lamas. However, she herself had been recognized as an emanation of White Tara, a powerful force of enlightened mind for the longevity and liberation of all sentient beings.

According to her, in the Pure Land of Tara, there, Tara is surrounded by multiple Taras, singing her original song in Sanskrit.

This song is esoteric, and the trouble is that all traditions of it are someone's stamp that lack explanation. No one has ever really talked about the song itself. The first thing that is apparent in looking at it is that it is very old, and none of these traditions could have possibly applied to it originally. Because we actually do have a lot of Sanskrit texts, then we have material that has more or less been ignored in Tibet but is done in Nepal.

This type of Tara Yoga is able to produce an experience of the planes of Death without actually dying, and then it is part of this same meditation that is used at the time of actually dying. It is even given to non-Buddhists in hospice work. This is what is behind the fact that she has been popularized as a relief for mental disturbances. That is not the same Tara meditation. It is something people would need in order to do more advanced yoga. It is how I bonded with her.

The odd thing is that once I felt better, then it seemed like she had run out of purpose. And so when I tried to ask her why is that, I became really confused. Tibetan sources are difficult and I was not satisfied by what seemed to be contradictions. The answer lies more in the Sanskrit vein and that there was one little girl who "got it".

This is largely a bardic system. A song opens another song, and another, and so on. Let me try to put it this way. Most of my life I use practice notes because something like Vajrasattva Hundred Syllable Mantra is awkward for an English speaker to just "do". I found the recording and listened several times as if I were actually going to learn it, and just gave up.

Somewhere close to a year after listening to it, I could spontaneously do the whole thing.

That changes the application, right? Now instead of being something difficult to do in the sacred space of meditation, it has become an ordinary everyday bond. But I have no idea how that happened. It was almost as if I wrote it myself.

I do not know anything about secret texts claimed by HPB or any special strand of Buddhism that cannot be found within the Abhidharma. I do know that the Mahatmas' personal initiations were the same as done by Delok Dawa Drolma. Because of her, we can then say, there is material which appears exoteric but is highly occult, based in Tara. According to a sastra:

And this means that someone like me can do this.

It is important that we have the Tibetan, Chinese, etc., sources, but with some rudimentary Sanskrit, we have been able to summarize a major practice that could last a lifetime for most people, or, with the compassion of Tara, can even be mastered by children.

Bo Atkinson

29th March 2022, 10:59

Well, it seems to me that a great deal of the Mahatmas' interest was in controlling the translations coming out of the east.

However inexplicable , however unresolved, this thread can at least weigh out the nature of the divide, east and west. The tremendous developments through India's ancient advancement may not categorically fit in the westerner's mind, just as the upstart-westerner's science may not fit into every Indian's mind, nor in the mind of the masses anywhere.

May this amorphous process of piecing together, build a little foot bridge for world peace. Relying on fewer specialized words and enigmas may yet provide a sufficient grounds forwardly, to complete our sowing (our planting seeds), and to reduce our bad harvest, (back slipping and distractions). Even this general law of life is so challenging to follow.

In all hemispheres, the inhabitants are free to advance as they may, and usually it is the local minorities who advance while the populations lapse under illusions and fictions, under dogma, under giant constructs of little benefit to all.

Public discussion is mastering criticisms of western politics, "the will to power", along with its problematic leadership and propagandist dogmas, etc.... Perhaps it is polite, to overlook the politics behind India's wisdom, its caste system, and Indian illusionist philosophy (Advaita).

We could explore an analogy, stretching from artistic representation which fools the eye pleasingly, to the Advaita of cosmic cosmic proportions, which in effect holds the self in lower worlds of man, holds the being, the monad in lower worlds so indefinitely.

The pleasures brought by artistic renderings need not deceive a seeker, as it entertains for moments passing. While illusions of cosmic progress may block the seeker's progress for eons. Theosophy kind of open-sources questions about Advaita, and it is not even slightly defeated by personal errors of founding members, (like Mr. Judge).

I kinda agree with Agape, that perhaps anyone can be a Theosophists through discourse; because, it never was "set in stone" with dogma, and it allows us to question everything, to get beyond illusions which hold us back.

Delight

29th March 2022, 14:15

I kinda agree with Agape, that perhaps anyone can be a Theosophists through discourse; because, it never was "set in stone" with dogma, and it allows us to question everything, to get beyond illusions which hold us back.

IMO Our agreement (or belief) holds the "world' in place and the after life too according to William Buhlman who IMO has as much credibility as anyone. He presented a talk that is CLASSIC

c2j8Vh3UzJI

IMO we need to Grok that these systems exist to perpetuate themselves. WE identify with them... the whole lot. It is just the way things are until we unlearn at SOME stage of our existence. the systems have NO INTENTION to be undone.

The exploration of consciousness is clothed by the styles of the wearers. So, answer me this one... why do people cling so tightly to the styles of clothes of our early indoctrination?

Bo Atkinson

29th March 2022, 20:41

IMO we need to Grok that these systems exist to perpetuate themselves. WE identify with them... the whole lot. It is just the way things are until we unlearn at SOME stage of our existence. the systems have NO INTENTION to be undone.

The exploration of consciousness is clothed by the styles of the wearers. So, answer me this one... why do people cling so tightly to the styles of clothes of our early indoctrination?

If people could build better galaxies like wearing new clothes, the do-it-yourself Youtubes would skirt this discussion. Fold it up and happily, forever after.

Physicality does get in the way, the hungry stomach growls, and our obstacle course remains where we left off, if it didn't back slip a notch, by the next life coming.

A lesser heard knowledge can be heard, for those with an ear to listen, and kindly let the world spin round.

shaberon

30th March 2022, 06:52

The exploration of consciousness is clothed by the styles of the wearers. So, answer me this one... why do people cling so tightly to the styles of clothes of our early indoctrination?

I am not sure what you are saying here. Are you talking about childhood or something else?

As a matter of simplicity and due to disturbing emotions, human beings sink to the low end of the scale. Generally we summarize religions and philosophies in these degrees:

0...irrelevant, ignorant, nothing, leading to animal and immoral behavior

1..."something good" generally leading to rebirth in a heaven world, such as most religions

2..."karma and rebirth", liberation from rebirths, as in most Indian religion

3...Bodhisattva Path

And so for the most part we content ourselves that 1 is greater than 0. If someone will at least cling to 1 for this reason, that is ok. Theosophy does state level 2, which we know from Greek history as being stamped out of the discussion.

The discussion took a trajectory from saying "hush" to "pre-existence of the soul" to the precipice of throwing Europe into a Dark Age at a given moment.

There was a time when Alexandria was basically equal to Lhasa or Nalanda. Different ideas were held, and "schools" formed within a larger university by process of open debate. One of the brightest and most successful was:

Hypatia (Υπατία)

https://images.fastcompany.com/upload/hypatia.jpg

https://mathsimulationtechnology.files.wordpress.com/2020/10/hypatia.png?w=640&h=438

https://poindexters.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/11/hypatia-pic-e1547583750274.jpg

For quite some time, she remained well-known.

Julia Cameron 1867:

https://www.laphamsquarterly.org/sites/default/files/images/roundtable/06539901.jpg

Olga Brandon 1890:

https://www.prints-online.com/image/164/23459038/23459038_450_450_7287_0_fit_0_4299c87925b06efb74a71a38ba17d8cd.jpg

Her identity may have gotten submerged in a more modern figure.

1830 Marianne, Lady Liberty:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a7/Eug%C3%A8ne_Delacroix_-_La_libert%C3%A9_guidant_le_peuple.jpg/757px-Eug%C3%A8ne_Delacroix_-_La_libert%C3%A9_guidant_le_peuple.jpg

Hypatia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypatia) brutally murdered 415:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/ea/Mort_de_la_philosophe_Hypatie.jpg/800px-Mort_de_la_philosophe_Hypatie.jpg

Past this point, you have one version of one book from Rome. The difficulty in spreading knowledge or advancing consciousness does not happen in the east. So in this geographical area, you are left with at most a very crude "1" while chances are that a lot of the leadership is just a "0" in disguise.

This has been an ongoing relatively forceful indoctrination.

It never affected me personally, and, I am not sure that very much has that does not at least correspond to "2". It has always been news and updates to me that not only are other minds not as sharp, many of them are vicious. I just do not understand what it would really be like to strongly believe something that I consider outright dumb. Nature has shown me thousands of examples of it, and what I gain is avoidant tendencies.

On the other hand, I can open a person up somewhere they've never been before, if they are my friend and they trust me. Any kind of actual real relationship invested with time can do this. But there are really not that many. I can't do much without that genuine-ness. In my experience it is rare that anyone tries to struggle mentally and spiritually to uplift or liberate themselves. Maybe karma has sidelined me so I take a long look at dysfunctional and crude mentalities. I am not sure. All I can really claim is to have made a few genuine differences here and there.

Bo Atkinson

30th March 2022, 09:12

I cringe at this barbaric history, and love the timeless theosophers.

Much sacrifice was feminized lovingly, with so small a masculine following. We are tangled in a seeming paradox, which is actually understandable. Truths are lovingly demonstrated which are confused by men and barely studied by mankind.

We are simultaneously spiked and salted by the Black Lodge because we vote their programing into power, and we indulge the lower emotional world, ever since their rulership of Atlantis

Emotionally engineered food affects the gut, and mankind has consistently feasted in the lower emotional world, for as long as the power-strategy can slash and burn, to fake progress, by hook or crook.

[...]

As a matter of simplicity and due to disturbing emotions, human beings sink to the low end of the scale. Generally we summarize religions and philosophies in these degrees:

0...irrelevant, ignorant, nothing, leading to animal and immoral behavior

1..."something good" generally leading to rebirth in a heaven world, such as most religions

2..."karma and rebirth", liberation from rebirths, as in most Indian religion

3...Bodhisattva Path

And so for the most part we content ourselves that 1 is greater than 0. If someone will at least cling to 1 for this reason, that is ok. Theosophy does state level 2, which we know from Greek history as being stamped out of the discussion.

The discussion took a trajectory from saying "hush" to "pre-existence of the soul" to the precipice of throwing Europe into a Dark Age at a given moment.

There was a time when Alexandria was basically equal to Lhasa or Nalanda. Different ideas were held, and "schools" formed within a larger university by process of open debate. One of the brightest and most successful was:

Hypatia (Υπατία)

https://images.fastcompany.com/upload/hypatia.jpg

https://mathsimulationtechnology.files.wordpress.com/2020/10/hypatia.png?w=640&h=438

https://poindexters.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/11/hypatia-pic-e1547583750274.jpg

For quite some time, she remained well-known.

Julia Cameron 1867:

https://www.laphamsquarterly.org/sites/default/files/images/roundtable/06539901.jpg

Olga Brandon 1890:

https://www.prints-online.com/image/164/23459038/23459038_450_450_7287_0_fit_0_4299c87925b06efb74a71a38ba17d8cd.jpg

Her identity may have gotten submerged in a more modern figure.

1830 Marianne, Lady Liberty:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a7/Eug%C3%A8ne_Delacroix_-_La_libert%C3%A9_guidant_le_peuple.jpg/757px-Eug%C3%A8ne_Delacroix_-_La_libert%C3%A9_guidant_le_peuple.jpg

Hypatia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypatia) brutally murdered 415:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/ea/Mort_de_la_philosophe_Hypatie.jpg/800px-Mort_de_la_philosophe_Hypatie.jpg

Past this point, you have one version of one book from Rome. The difficulty in spreading knowledge or advancing consciousness does not happen in the east. So in this geographical area, you are left with at most a very crude "1" while chances are that a lot of the leadership is just a "0" in disguise.

This has been an ongoing relatively forceful indoctrination.

It never affected me personally, and, I am not sure that very much has that does not at least correspond to "2". It has always been news and updates to me that not only are other minds not as sharp, many of them are vicious. I just do not understand what it would really be like to strongly believe something that I consider outright dumb. Nature has shown me thousands of examples of it, and what I gain is avoidant tendencies.

On the other hand, I can open a person up somewhere they've never been before, if they are my friend and they trust me. Any kind of actual real relationship invested with time can do this. But there are really not that many. I can't do much without that genuine-ness. In my experience it is rare that anyone tries to struggle mentally and spiritually to uplift or liberate themselves. Maybe karma has sidelined me so I take a long look at dysfunctional and crude mentalities. I am not sure. All I can really claim is to have made a few genuine differences here and there.

shaberon

30th March 2022, 10:02

The tremendous developments through India's ancient advancement may not categorically fit in the westerner's mind...

No, here's the example. The founders of the TS had restored Buddhism in Sri Lanka. Olcott also was not an occult writer, however, he was a disciple of The Path of Purity, Visuddhimagga (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visuddhimagga), by Buddhaghosa approximately in the 5th Century in Sri Lanka.

Besides the Canon, this is the most important thing in Theravada Buddhism, such that:

According to scholars, the Visuddhimagga is one of the extremely rare texts within the enormous literatures of various forms of Jainism, Buddhism, and Hinduism to give explicit details about how spiritual masters were thought to actually manifest supernormal abilities. Abilities such as flying through the air, walking through solid obstructions, diving into the ground, walking on water and so forth are performed by changing one element, such as earth, into another element, such as air.

It is like that. Olcott took it at face value, and this is what he did. If the contents sound vaguely familiar, that is because it was taken by the Golden Dawn and incorporated into what they do. Not necessarily in the right way because they are not Theravadins. Even the notorious Harari does Vispassana Meditation. Does that mean I have to blame Theravada for the Great Reset? I hope not! But I am sure he is able to use the intellectual side to help his calmness and concentration.

HPB also did this, but, painted herself into a corner by not knowing how to tie it to Mahayana Buddhism.

We can easily now retrieve the Visuddhimagga Text (https://archive.org/stream/Visuddhimagga-ThePathOfPurification/PathofPurification2011_djvu.txt) and see for ourselves. If you at least scroll into the contents then you will get a metaphysical vibe. You have to go deep into it and there is the same principle I mentioned a few days ago:

Ch. IX The Divine Abidings 291

[(1) Loving-Kindness] 291

[(2) Compassion] 308

[(3) Gladness] 309

[(4) Equanimity] 310

And most of the rest of what is in it is the same as Mahayana. The main difference is that here, everything is expressed generically as an Object.

That is the language that Mahayana is based on. It uses an Object. This is what is used to train in Mahayana meditation. Moreover, such Objects are personified, such that what in Visuddhimagga is called:

[The Earth Kasina]

We would call Vasudhara. Then I can say she is the same as some Hindu goddesses, and, also, has a Buddhist variety. In this book, it is just a small shape. If desired, Vasudhara can be reduced to a syllable. So our "Earth Kasina" has broad dynamics and our process and goal are in addition to what is given here. But, as a kind of lowest common denominator, it is almost identical to this Pali system.

Mahayana uses the Yogacara teaching on using the Object. So if one was for some reason more comfortable with a small square, one could probably simply do the exercises in a Mahayana manner. Overall, the goal in Theravada is to cause the manifestation of a Pure Object. And so even if I do the Theravada and I choose a yellow square, even this basic thing is hard to actually see. With training, some day it becomes easy to see. With more training, some day it takes on a new, higher form.

This kind of thing is tangible enough that you can do Lilac Chaser and see if you find the greenish one:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6e/Lilac-Chaser.gif

That is almost certainly how they started Nalanda, by blending this system with Mahayana. I really do not think Golden Dawn is quite the same progression of it. They are like a collector's club. Theravada is not really that big. In Kagyu we have thousands of centers. We have so many in Europe that we even have Iceland. All continents but Antarctica. Indian communities have their own temples which are mostly for themselves. Everything of ours is a mission. Earthlings must at least be mildly tolerant of it in a relatively undiluted form.

In the illusion, there is no greenish one. Nevertheless, in about five seconds, I only see it and no purple ones.

onawah

30th March 2022, 21:20

Delight

30th March 2022, 22:32

Buhlman is not an especially erudite speaker, but I appreciate his honesty and unpretentiousness, and I think he's right.
Right about how we are trapped in the "box" we make of our belief systems.
I didn't really realize what a box I had created for myself until I read Sir Lawrence Gardner's work and became able to let go of my Christian beliefs in the Crucifixtion and Resurrection, and accept the idea that Jesus was human, not a God, and furthermore, that he was married to Mary Magdalene and a father.
That made some big cracks in the box, and allowed me to begin recognizing how my beliefs had affected and limited me.
Theosophy helped to make more cracks in the box, and a perspective more outside the box (though there are lots of beliefs in Theosophy too!).
Thanks, Delight. :nod:

I kinda agree with Agape, that perhaps anyone can be a Theosophists through discourse; because, it never was "set in stone" with dogma, and it allows us to question everything, to get beyond illusions which hold us back.

IMO Our agreement (or belief) holds the "world' in place and the after life too according to William Buhlman who IMO has as much credibility as anyone. He presented a talk that is CLASSIC

https://youtube.com/watch?v=c2j8Vh3UzJI

IMO we need to Grok that these systems exist to perpetuate themselves. WE identify with them... the whole lot. It is just the way things are until we unlearn at SOME stage of our existence. the systems have NO INTENTION to be undone.

The exploration of consciousness is clothed by the styles of the wearers. So, answer me this one... why do people cling so tightly to the styles of clothes of our early indoctrination?

If this is the "Apocalypse" (Apocalypse, from Ancient Greek: ἀποκάλυψις apokálypsis, meaning "revelation" or "disclosure"), IMO the reveal I observe is that the how is being revealed showing clearly that the realm of belief system operates in our personal experience. Belief is what clothes this reality. This is a larger POV.

I don't "believe" anything about "Jesus"... I just do not know. However, I look at what has been claimed about the qualities of Christ, the qualities of "the Good News" and I absolutely INTEND TO BE the qualities I observe touted for Christ consciousness...

These qualities that I hold fast are not exclusive to "Christianity" or any religion. They IMO are the qualities embodied when one is in Relationship with (Unknown) God. I do NOT see the qualities presented below as "beliefs". Beliefs give them form IMO.

As Buhlman says, we cannot escape the way beliefs shape what we experience. This also seems a larger POV because it shows that even this belief that beliefs shape reality MUST be operating? IMO we are being offered a "world" to live in that is quite focused on learning all about the heart of the matter.

I will that my world be "god's" world: For me to be closer and closer to the essence of what is an Unknown but felt as Presence. I hold fast to loving God and looking for TRUTH. I may be all wrong? I may be wrong but I am open to the TRUTH.

upon my spiritual awakening, I met again with the Teachings of the Christ. But this time around, they were presented to me in a very different form then previously and these new understandings offered me the revolution of my own heart that until then had remained firmly closed.

Firstly I became fully aware that God/Source was not separate from us but within us and within everything around us….

And then I realized that the Christ Teachings were not just words of wisdom but indeed pure consciousness; seeds of consciousness that we already carry inside and through the process of receiving both the new spiritual learnings and the practicing of meditation, this Christ Consciousness could simply grow and develop from within our own being all those magnificent Christ qualities of Love&Light that are always present in us.

In the beginning of my transformation I was taken back by these new discoveries so radically different from everything I knew before, but after a while all started to make perfect sense….

To be awakened, to be conscious means to align our consciousness with the Christ Consciousness as the evolution and growth inside our awareness simply signifies to fully accept and embrace all the Christ Principles:

Love

Compassion

Patience

Forgiveness

Generosity

Peace

Faith

Divinity

Charity

Oneness

Humility

Gratitude

Non-judgment

I began to fully comprehend that the key was to be found not in listening to the teachings as just wisdom learnings of the mind only, but in being able to instead embody them. To begin the merging of my own consciousness with the Christ Consciousness, as one, was my own turning point, gifting me with the full insight of what meant to truly walk on the spiritual path…and as it is within me, it is also within you… continue here https://thriveglobal.com/stories/simply-consciousness-gratitude-what-is-christ-consciousness/

It is NOW the most important moment ever to embody the qualities we wish to see in the world we create as we BELIEVE it. If people truly choose the inversion of the qualities and desire the "transhuman" world etc... I say let them enjoy THAT. However, I do not intend to live there.

I assume there will be a split in realities because I KNOW there are lots of people who have moved beyond all religious doctrines and want to live in the world of God's qualities. I am intending that the LIGHT of TRUTH so flood the world that it rends the veils. That is my interest and the old writings do sometimes shed some light on how to access the RELATIONSHIP with God.

onawah

30th March 2022, 22:50

Delight

30th March 2022, 23:45

I don't disagree with any of the attributes that you assign to Jesus, or the need to embody those virutes ourselves, Delight.
However, the whole spin that the Church put onto Christianity to make it into a belief system requires followers, followers who believe that God sent his only Son to be cruficifed for their sins, to accept the Pope as Christ's representative on Earth, and priests as necessary intermedaries between us and God, women as inferior and unclean, and all the rest--that is what created those boxes and makes them more and more restrictive and claustrophic.
Much of that doctrine was created to help make Pagans think that Christianity might simply be a continuation of the "Old Religion", as it paralled many of the old essential myths and beliefs, thus affording the Church the power to collect tithes and "Indulgences" and to assume power of all kinds over the world.

I assume there will be a split in realities because I KNOW there are lots of people who have moved beyond all religious doctrines and want to live in the world of God's qualities. I am intending that the LIGHT of TRUTH so flood the world that it rends the veils. That is my interest and the old writings do sometimes shed some light on how to access the RELATIONSHIP with God.

I say the TRUTH IS the truth whether I label it or not or even KNOW it. It makes perfect sense to take TRUTH and INVERT it to NEGATE and twist it. The religions have done their best to spin a narrative. To obfuscate the significance of our being with God and call it being with the church IMO. I think what you just said of your journey is something about how the truth was obfuscated gENERALLY. What if we are "here" to pass through all the obfuscations we agreed into place? Take them to the limit so they become impossible to believe?

I DO NOT AGREE that I need any other than God to teach me, assist me, support me, love me, cherish me. This is MY personal decision. Now that I have made this decision, I cannot even hear a contradicting thought. To me this is surrendering. To me this is my "theosophy" because the more I choose to direct my mundane attention on being with God, the less I know of all the verbiage I once recalled. I think my beliefs are all being worn down.

I am uncertain as to everything except I exist and God IS.

I am expecting my prayer will be answered that I do not have to die and be born again to continue building my relationship with the Divine. I give thanks that I am Me as I currently understand me.

I give Thanks for YOU being YOU too. We are here together as ONE and many unpacking IMO the great gift of a shift of consciousness my heart knows is possible.

shaberon

31st March 2022, 07:51

Love

Compassion

Patience

Forgiveness

Generosity

Peace

Faith

Divinity

Charity

Oneness

Humility

Gratitude

Non-judgment

Are you aware that you have quoted our exoteric Buddhism very closely?

This is why I expect that Harari cannot meditate properly since most of these qualities are presumably lacking.

They are within the original Rosicrucian concept:

To do good by stealth and blush at the discovery.

Theosophical history roughly says such Rosicrucians were around until the 1600s, and that no modern societies using that name are the same thing.

To answer my own question, is there such a thing as a western spiritual path--Alchemy.

Until the 1600s it was the same as Natural Science which Isaac Newton followed. And so, if he had not been jettisoned and sort of overwritten by intellectual adversaries related to the Encyclopedists, this would have continued as mankind's normative mode of education.

Allright. Let us say the above-mentioned Qualities are indispensible. They are more or less an individual's own property and are portable. And so if we review for a moment, there is no scriptural basis for a Church. That is a building and social institution, related to Circe and Circle. What the disciples actually did was an Assembly which is a Gathering which is Ecclesia. This is taken in a sort of dual meaning of All Lives, and then of those who have consciously come to the Ecclesia to strengthen the qualities. This relationship is shown in an alchemical symbol which is probably familiar:

=

The two lines represent Zoe or Life and Ecclesia or All Lives or the disciples consciously.

The purpose of such Assemblies was to go forth and relieve Suffering of All Lives. As far as I am concerned, the early followers of Jesus were doing a basic form of Buddhism wherein we cannot say they denied "pre-existence of the soul".

That symbol is, of course, still Equality. This is how we view Perpetual Motion in Complete Equilibrium. To try it without, for example, Humility, can only result in disaster.

Equality, Balance, and Justice of course would be outer signs of inner success. Because these are hard to find, we are content to remind ourselves that worldlings are not particularly spiritual. There was a time at the very beginning of 2018, not long after the major solar eclipse, that an Arctic air mass from Greenland settled over most of the United States, for at least two weeks. That is very unusual in the south to go that long without getting above twenty degrees. At that time something caught my attention about Justice and "is Atlanta Atlantis?" which I am pulling from:

It is in Mahachohan's letter that emphatically and in no uncertain terms that the main spiritual obstacle for "Pelings" is not really about knowledge, it is racist attitudes and behavior.

And so, we know Atlanta is not an ancient city. I suppose it could be described as relatively modern. It definitely could be described as an area that definitely did have some indigenous inhabitants. And they were kicked out of their homes by railroad industrialists. There's no way around or out of that.

So, there was some kind of business plan to expand industry towards the midwest, and so on this occupied land, they manufactured a new city and gave it a pretty name. And then in only a few years, it, and most of the surrounding area, was destroyed by the United States Army. There isn't anything you can really do to get around that. Nor the fact that most of the industry goods were being produced by other people who were being owned like property, who, although they were numerically mostly of African origin, also included people such as the Irish, who were the trash of the slaves by the way they were usually treated. Undeniably, this is the type of environment generated on your occupied land. But they gave it a pretty name.

Despite the spelling, it has nothing to do with Atlantis.

No, it was a girl, Atalanta. For whatever reason, she has an obscure Greek goddess name, from "atalantos", equal in weight, related to "talantos", a scale or balance. So there, even if perhaps by accident, you have placed yourself under Virgo and her scale of justice, Libra. Because she is a virgin whose name is "balance", she's Virgo-Libra.

And further, if the claim that some of the first "Rosicrucians" had a few authentic manuscripts or Kalachakra-keys, which, for their own protection, they had to cloak in Christian garb, holds any weight--then this tract, for whatever reason, is inspired by that very same goddess, and for some reason, is not in every edition of the Theosophical Glossary:

Atalanta Fugiens (Lat.). A famous treatise by the eminent Rosicrucian Michael Maier; it has many beautiful engravings of Alchemic symbolism: here is to be found the original of the picture of a man and woman within a circle, a triangle around it, then a square: the inscription is, “From the first ens proceed two contraries, thence come the three principles, and from them the four elementary states ; if you separate the pure from the impure you will have the stone of the Philosophers”. [ w.w.w.]

Atalanta Fugiens (https://www.alchemywebsite.com/atl1-5.html) text, an early multi-media intended to go with 50 fugues or pieces of music.

Atlanta really marks the beginning of what we would think of as U. S. Federal Empire. Around here they are thought of as rather like Ukranians. Since it is very easy to show continuity from one to the other, and, the other catches us at a point where, in this case, someone else appears to be doing something truer and more just, perhaps the Scales will do some Balancing now.

Or more simply, Ukraine reveals what we have been saying all along.

Natural Science was a vastly different order than the Dead Souls Science which replaced it all over Europe.

It is an import, since Alchemy is Persian, Egyptian, and Indian. Al khemt = "the black", i. e. the silt deposits of the yearly flooding of the Nile in Egypt.

I would say that the Qualities plus Alchemy are a close symbolic parallel of Buddhism, although they do not really have "practices". They are a statement about the same thing. Kind of a springboard.

In principle, the Earth Glyph is the Orb of Kings, such as that of the Holy Roman Empire:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/c8/Imperial_Orb_of_the_Holy_Roman_Empire.jpg/450px-Imperial_Orb_of_the_Holy_Roman_Empire.jpg

In Buddhism, I guess we would describe that as the time when a person is observably saturated with Qualities. In our view, this is required to even attempt to meditate properly. So, firstly, it is just not abundant in all people, secondly, without training, it would be considered exoteric. Maybe it is like saying "qualified to" and unfortunately we know that most emperors and kings who held those orbs were not qualified.

Because we are not talking about temporal power, when a person qualifies and really does it, then he is the King, is the Conqueror.

So if alchemy is, roughly, a language of transmutation of the individual, then this at least represents that there is a Path. Because it is possible to do this intellectually or mechanically, then we assert that the cultivation of Qualities is essential. That is a fair example of what we might call basic training that is not necessarily averse to some non-Buddhist understandings.

Journeyman

31st March 2022, 10:04

I wanted to register my thanks for everyone contributing to this thread. This is one of the best discussions I've seen on this topic and I'm grateful to all concerned.

Bo Atkinson

31st March 2022, 10:53

Mankind has always received the ineffable, both in smaller and bigger settings as well. Overlording demands by one dominant culture is not really intended, and so Theosophy had its striking presentation tailored for the colonial period of the 1800s.

Western authoritarianism, was so intense that only the many incarnating scientist, (over recent centuries), and in sufficient numbers, could stave off the incredulous, satanist lies:

... sin as a crime against an infinite being who “because of his righteousness cannot forgive” but demands eternal punishment in everlasting hell...
.... the promise of forgiveness for crimes of all kinds that has had a stifling effect. Why make any efforts? You will go to heaven anyhow. Besides, you should “not try to be saved by your own work”... passivity, believe that god does everything ... only pray, and then god does all the rest.
Periodically incarnated teachers in the draconian west were forced underground into secret orders, and so little evidence of this was found, because their existence and teachings were bound up in vows of absolute silence, (for physical saftey reasons). However HPB's work marked the beginning of sharing esoterics, (not to be confused with the occult). Yet fascinating terms do get borrowed and localized here and there, (which could be expected in this world of much confusion).

Our age is relieved of the barbaric repression of those who would utter common sense about all existence, which might differ a little from the powers that be. We are free to pick and choose what we want to work with, but we are stuck on this difficult plane of existence, repeatedly, reincarnating according to our sowing and reaping, until we get over various kinds of degrading illusions, or illusoriness.

Higher worlds are untainted by lower worlds, but do bear certain responsibilities, not to interfere with natural, (human made), evolution while providing some sorts of allowable duties, before, and in turn, evolving to yet higher worlds above them, in a succession of higher evolution...

I'm lightly paraphrasing hylozoics here, initiated by Pythagoras, whose teachings were kept mostly hidden away, and finally explained more in depth by an unknown teacher of the 1900s, who was posthumously published online at no cost for full PDF downloads (http://laurency.com/), mostly after the year 2000. This is esoterics, in the sense that few will read it deeply, with a mind to practice what was understood, e.g.

...the law of development, the law of self-realization, and the law of activation are different aspects of the same law. It is up to the individual to acquire all the qualities and abilities, activate consciousness in his envelopes by himself, ascend the whole series of ever higher levels of development himself. Nothing is given to us. Everything is self- acquisition. Nothing can change that arrangement.

shaberon

2nd April 2022, 07:48

I wanted to register my thanks for everyone contributing to this thread. This is one of the best discussions I've seen on this topic and I'm grateful to all concerned.

I say most of what I am saying from what may be a fairly common trend of being interested in every kind of magic and spirituality one can think of. Tried most of it. If you can name it, I have probably been there. And I came to two unsatisfying conclusions. One is that original Theosophy was purloined and, most notably, Alice Bailey material became deeply entrenched with the U. N., and I thought this was equally valid around the time of Maurice Strong, who has a very revealing thread on Avalon posted by someone else. I lived through it and melted it, and that post happened to be pretty accurate.

One of the things he did was get some land in Colorado and make a type of New Age colony, with a resident Native Shaman, a Buddhist Lama, and so on. It is very deep, nevertheless, it was all for purposes of manipulation.

Tibetans don't know what to do when the CIA shows up with a suitcase full of cash, or they are offered a gigantic ranch. They have no clue about pesky American money influence or how international politics really works. So they have been a little exploited for someone's PR or political posturing.

So I had to repeal a lot of dirty tricks that were in my mind by invitation. And then it sort of set on me that although the Navajo or Egyptians or Mayans or Assyrians may well have some advanced spiritual people, wisdom, practices, and so forth, but it is difficult to really transfer them to myself. It is difficult to actually be a Gnostic, since that would mostly be just an ad hoc representation from G. R. S. Mead putting together fragments. My distant ancestors were probably in a Cernunnos cult of druidry, but, I didn't get anything from it.

No matter what I may have done individually, it turns out that Buddhism is the only thing resembling a public vow that I have accepted, and in turn, it actually does have continuity to its root.

I have come close to becoming both a heretical Christian and Muslim, but, stopped a step shy of entering into it. I guess I have a transmission of Shiva Tandava without any kind of vow.

It is a bit like the study of Theosophy made me realize I was already Buddhist. In fact, compared to all the magic and religious studies in the world, HPB was the last thing I read.

Well from having a sketchy feeling on events through history and so forth, she really actually does straighten it out. I will not say she is infallible or a prophet, rather, most of what she says is valid and explanatory. It is just that it is not only in The Secret Doctrine, which was probably the most influential book in the world for fifty years, it is in other books and strewn through collections. Moreover, all she did was work for her boss, perpetually, she was completely clairvoyant in terms of what Buddhism would call Dream Yoga.

After those fifty years, her boss's letters were actually published out of an estate. If it were not for some controversial moves, they simply would have disappeared. I thought that was Theosophy because it was the first major piece I read. And so I took the dominance of Buddhism in it for granted.

As I went along in life and came across what neo theosophy is doing to Maitreya, I was just...I don't know...flattered? Not exactly. It was kind of creepy. And so when I became more sincere and took a serious look, then, no, these are different sides.

I am supposed to warn others that you are not supposed to use Maitreya "in vain", you will wind up in hell for eons and no one will help you.

The ULT really is a unique point of view. And it is just now in today's paper that the most extreme force in terms of fighting to the last Ukranian is British. But this is exactly what the original Theosophical Society was intended to address. It is almost morbid how same the situation is.

shaberon

2nd April 2022, 08:41

I'm lightly paraphrasing hylozoics here, initiated by Pythagoras, whose teachings were kept mostly hidden away

Yes. Plato is significant not for being intelligent but for being the disciple of Pythagoras.

Vegetarians were still called Pythagoreans until the 1800s.

Viewed correctly, Pythagoras gives a basic version of the esoteric doctrine.

It is doubly similar to Buddhism because it focuses on Hygeia:

She was often depicted as a young woman feeding a large snake that was wrapped around her body or drinking from a jar that she carried.

Hygieia and her five sisters each performed a facet of Apollo's art: Hygieia ("Hygiene" the goddess/personification of health, cleanliness, and sanitation), Panacea (the goddess of Universal remedy), Iaso (the goddess of recuperation from illness), Aceso (the goddess of the healing process), and Aglæa/Ægle (the goddess of beauty, splendor, glory, magnificence, and adornment).

https://iiif.wellcomecollection.org/image/M0003962/full/880%2C/0/default.jpg

She is also found on the pentagram related to the Elements:

https://spells8.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/06/The-Greek-Pentagram-1.jpg

This type of symbolism is, I suppose, shared far and wide under various names. It is not very new. Comparatively, however, in terms of tantric yoga, the corresponding doctrine becomes evident in Vinasikha Tantra of ca. 7th century. It was considered so powerful that southeast Asian kingdoms in Thailand and Indonesia dedicated new temples to it and kept it all under strict initiatic access.

Pythagoras is also known for using the shape of what has come to be called a Christian Pentagram (https://spells8.com/celtic-pentacle/):

https://spells8.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/06/Christian-Pentagram-1.jpg

In Masonry, this shape is actually viewed as being the interior pentagon, being the shape of a house with a roof. Deriving from Old French "Mas", a house, therefor, "Masonry".

I would say that Pythagoras was doing a kind of yoga that was cutting edge for its time. Because this important deity is about health and well-being, that is compatible to Buddhist yoga. But yes, practices of Pythagoreanism were pushed underground, which is roughly the "push" that leads to a full-blown Dark Age with Hypatia. Not until the Crusades did it even begin to trickle back in.

Almost all of the Greek myth material is cognates from Sanskrit. It was kind of working together a long time ago. So you can heavily compare Pythagoras to Ayurveda. The life and healing properties of this devotion are essential.

onawah

3rd April 2022, 03:27

shaberon

3rd April 2022, 06:59

I can relate...after all my comparative studies it's Buddhism that makes the most sense to me and feels most right, though I don't refute the truths in other practices (...belief systems, religions, --whatever we choose to call them...).
And I think it's remained the purest.

My questions lie along the lines of how some things are "practices"?

For example, I enjoy the Orthodox service, although it is all what I would call "outer practice". The reason I understood Buddhism the second time--not from martial arts or Sutras--was due to following Yoga and so i. e. actually discovering energetic and conscious states that are not "outer". The Yoga genre as a whole refers to various ways of performing inner practices, and Buddhism is a kind of Yoga.

By having converted into it, I just mean Refuge Vow. HPB was called Upasika which means a lay follower.

The five vows to be held by upāsakas are referred to as the "Five Precepts" (Pāli: pañcasīla):

I will not take the life of a sentient being;
I will not take what has not been given to me;
I will refrain from sexual misconduct;
I will refrain from false speech;
I will refrain from becoming intoxicated.

Does not sound all that hard, just means you would publicly say it in the presence of other Buddhists.

What has been translated as "religion" out of our texts is:

adhyatmika

which means the reading and contemplation of scriptures.

I am not sure if that is what it means to others.

The significance in taking Refuge is to say this is the safest and most reliable guide. It is significant enough to be the subject of more than a month retreat of H. E. Garchen Rinpoche (https://garchen.net/annual-events/), because it is actually all parts of the Ngondro or Preliminaries of Guru Yoga each having a long retreat. He is Drikung Kagyu which is really Bhutanese and believes that transmission by streaming or recording is fine.

So that is a formal approach. Considering that we are talking about a school of Transcendentalism, it turns out that just a few "denominations" teach something like this without the use of a human Guru. Adi Shankara says you can use Daksinamurti Shiva, and in Kagyu generally we use Vajradhara. So that is what I was doing before I saw how HPB explained it. She must have understood this principle.

Everything is basically an evolution of Sanskrit mantras.

Apparently what is called "religion" in Buddhism is a "student". It specifically means you have to internally process the teachings. In this context it means the reasoned formulations of Mahayana. One of the basic intents is to quieten disturbing emotions and distracting thought. Further down the road, you observe the mind reciting Mahayana instead of those obstacles. This is, of course, fairly gradual, however it is actually infinite. This has helped me.

Purity is the motif of the Bodhisattva Path.

shaberon

4th April 2022, 07:46

It was a really long time ago that HPB read Guru Yoga back to me. It seemed more obvious to me she must have actually been connected to something substantial within actual Buddhist traditions, and, was having a hard time expressing it due to the limitations of comparing everything to the Kabala and so forth.

Well, in many ways she was a spectacular breakthrough for being an uneducated woman who became majorly published in a peerlike rivalry against men of major institutions.

She is good with some Puranic subjects, such as Samjna (Perception) and Soma, moreover, I would say this directly leads to the explanatory Nepalese Samvarodaya Tantra. This is a very unusual Buddhist article in that it relies on these very Puranic goddesses. However it is very advanced. HPB does then have examples of Gradualist approach.

In the Glossary, she more or less condemns asceticism and physical practices, saying:

The higher branches of Yoga, however, such as the Raja-Yoga and Jnana-Yoga, implying strict spiritual and intellectual discipline combined with a fervid love for all beings, are perfectly safe.

And she is, in fact, trying to get you to do this in some way:

The various forms of yoga from the standpoint of theosophy when properly understood are not distinct, separable means of attaining union with the god within; and it is a divergence of the attention into one or several of these forms to the exclusion of others that has brought about so much mental confusion and lack of success even in those who are more or less skilled. Every one of these forms of yoga, with the probable exception of the lower forms of hatha yoga, should be practiced concurrently by the one who has set his heart and mind upon spiritual success. Thus one should carefully watch and control his acts, acting and working unselfishly; he should live so that his daily customs distract attention as little as possible away from the spiritual purpose; his heart coincidentally should be filled with devotion and love for all things; and he should cultivate, all at the same time, his will, his capacity for self-sacrifice and self-devotion to a noble cause, and his ability to stand firm and undaunted in the face of difficulties whatever they may be; and, finally, in addition and perhaps most importantly, he should do everything in his power to cultivate his intuition and intellectual faculties, exercising not merely his ratiocinative mind, but the higher intuitive and nobly intellectual parts. Combining all these he is following the chela path and is using all the forms of yoga in the proper way.

So far, it would seem to be a reasonable description of Mahayana. Even a chela has combined multiple sub-systems.

She is, however, phenomenally confusing in her idea of "two Asangas":

The earlier Aryasangha was an arhat and founded the original Yogacharya school, a thoroughly esoteric institution; the latter’s school is a branch of the Mahayana, and is of a truly spiritual type, its teachings being identical in essence with those of theosophy. This Yogacharya school must not be confused with the Mahatantra school which was founded by Samantabhadra, whose teachings were later collected and glossed around the 6th century by the pseudo-Aryasangha in connection with litanies, formularies, spells, etc. This school is wholly exoteric, popular, and its works are largely composite of Tantric worship and ritualism that can lead the student only to black magic and sorcery.

She may have minced words, Sangha as the Buddhist community, and Asanga, the teacher. Somewhere it may say "Arya Sangha" for the ancient community, but, "Arya Asanga" is not usual, I have not seen him referred to like this.

In another area, she has said that Asanga's Bodhisattva Bhumi, without the guidance of a guru, will lead to sorcery. Here, by "Mahatantra", she probably means "Mahayoga". It sounds like she is saying that Asanga teaches spiritual Mahayana, but, mixed with dangerous tantric spellcraft. We thought that Samantabhadra and/or Mahayoga was slightly later. It would be the "system of Sitabani", which we do not see as "wholly exoteric". It may be "non-monastic". But if we were somehow to suggest that Samantabhadra can only lead to black magic, we would have some difficulty here.

She is historically accurate in that the Dalai Lama was doing a purge of snake oil salesmen and fortune-telling swindlers and so forth, who of course copied things from Buddhist Sutras to make amulets and so on. That does not mean that there are not legitimate branches of the superstitious forms of these arts.

Nevertheless, if you practice "yoga" generally:

Yogin, Yoginī A devotee who practices a full yoga system; the yogi state is that which, “when reached, makes the practitioner thereof absolute master of his six ‘principles,’ he now being merged in the seventh. It gives him full control, owing to his knowledge of Self and Self, over his bodily, intellectual and mental states, which, unable any longer to interfere with, or act upon, his Higher Ego, leave it free to exist in its original, pure, and divine state” (TG 381).

More commonly, a practitioner of one or more various subordinate branches of yoga. There are many grades and kinds of yogis, and the term has become in India a generic name for every kind of ascetic. “In some cases, yogins are men who strive in various ways to conquer the body and physical temptations, for instance by torture of the body. They also study more or less some of the magnificent philosophical teachings of India coming down from far-distant ages of the past; but mere mental study will not make a man a Mahatma, nor will any torture of the body bring about the spiritual vision — the Vision Sublime” (OG 183).

"Mental study" is not enough, and, most of the Yogacara arguments contra Prasangika fault it as being a logical and rational reductionism. However, HPB is pro-Prasangika in the Gelug system of Tson kha pa. Most of her concrete information is from the near end of her career in:

BCW vol. XIV (http://www.katinkahesselink.net/blavatsky/articles/v14/) or "The Secret Doctrine Volume Three"

and even as favoring Gelug and the highly inappropriate term Red Hats for sorcerors, she admits of sorceries:

None of these have anything to do with the real philosophical Buddhism of the Gelugpa, or even of the most educated among the Sakyapa and Kadampa sects.

so there is at least a hint of Rime' or that maybe you do not have to follow the Gelug ecclesiastical system. The Sakyas use Red Hats.

There is an attempt to understand everything she said about Initiation (https://universaltheosophy.com/key-concepts/initiation/). But in vol. XIV she describes "veiled and obscured" systems of Buddhism:

And though its Srotâpatti, its Sakridâgâmin, Anâgâmin, and Arhats, bear the same names in almost every school, yet the doctrines of each differ greatly, and none of these is likely to gain real Abhijñas (the supernatural abnormal five powers).

But this is just part of Prajnaparamita philosophy. Not very mysterious at all. Here she does a much better job with Manjughosha, although describing a Chinese branch:

The chanting of a Mantra is not a prayer, but rather a magical sentence in which the law of Occult causation connects itself with, and depends on, the will and acts of its singer. It is a succession of Sanskrit sounds, and when its string of words and sentences is pronounced according to the magical formulae in the Atharva-Veda, but understood by the few, some Mantras produce an instantaneous and very wonderful effect. In its esoteric sense it contains the Vâch (the “mystic speech”), which resides in the Mantra, or rather in its sounds, since it is according to the vibrations, one way or the other, of ether that the effect is produced. The “sweet singers” were called by that name because they were experts in Mantras.

The whole Atharva Veda comes under her same warning. It essentially is a book of sorcery, which, so to speak, only has the golden thread by way of extraction. The same is true in Buddhist tantras generally. So we are doing what Mahachohan described as "separating from superstition". However, this is mostly already done, and comes under the category "following the commentarial tradition" just as she said. And so this same thing, of course, was promoted by historical Asanga.

The most misguiding thing she has done is with Alaya Vijnana (http://www.katinkahesselink.net/blavatsky/articles/v14/mb_007.htm) while quoting Avatamsaka Sutra. In Yogacara, this is false mentation composed of Karma, the very "Dweller on the Threshhold", etc., that a yogin seeks to extinguish. This is a fairly exoteric teaching of normal Asanga, and either represents all Yogacara, or most if not all Mahayana. If she wanted to convey the idea of a "source" which continues after the transformation of Alaya, it would be Dharmadhatu or Lokottara Citta. In this case I think she has actually obscured Mahayana, by resting on the literal translation of "storehouse" and re-ifying it.

Avatamsaka is from the same northwestern background as normal Asanga.

HPB expresses what we would call Prasangika intent, and she is adequately aware of the two kinds of meditation. We just mean a realization of Sunyata is necessary to progress into the realm of how to live with and operate the natural underlying fact of Sunyata--again so it is not merely a mental idea or lack thereof, but a deeply anchored experience. She is in the adverse position of upholding Svasamvedana, a Yogacara position, while saying that Prasangika is closest to Adwaita and so i. e. a more accurate depiction of Parabrahm.

Unlike her, we can, historically, name a system, Nirakara, that resolves this adequately.

Adwaitees however rely on Atman and they say it is our Tathagatagarbha which resembles this. Correct. Our main difference is not in the technical structure of reality or how it is experienced, but, rather, the intent. Mahayana is on a mission, this mission defines the real Tathagatagarbha. Nirakara is forthright that the reductions and negations placed by Sunyata doctrines all result in positivist transformations in something that proceeds to purify itself and entire world-systems.

Buddhism is basically unaffected by Jesuitry. They are clever and can do disciplines. In India, there was one who had mastered the art of "shampooing", a word similar to "massage", gaining the ability to carry handfuls of live coals. There once was one in Lhasa who was allowed to copy some folios. He could never get Sunyata. To his linear mind, it was incomprehensible. He left with little but this marker that Sunyata must be some kind of mental barrier if you are conditioned against it.

It may have been too easy to make Theosophists jumpy by more or less asserting that historical Asanga was a Red Hat and they are everywhere. A lot of the warnings she is giving actually sound like the reaction of orthodox Hinduism to tantra generally. However, in other areas, in 1882, Koothoomi responded to a string of insults saying:

we "may be tantrikists" (better ascertain the value of the compliment paid)

In "Kosmic Mind", defending Vital Forces, HPB says there

"exists no more serious denunciation than that which accuses and convicts them of personifying and even deifying the chief organs of, and in, the human body. Indeed, do not we hear these “benighted fools” of Hindus speaking of the small-pox as a goddess [Hariti]—thus personifying the microbes of the variolic virus? Do we not read about Tantrikas, a sect of mystics, giving proper names to nerves, cells and arteries, connecting and identifying various parts of the body with deities, endowing functions and physiological processes with intelligence, and what not?"

So although used very reservedly in Theosophy, tantra must underlie some of the philosophy, which might be found outside of Gelug. One of the most revelatory things I have found that she said was buried in Footnotes to Gleanings from Eliphas Levi (http://www.katinkahesselink.net/blavatsky/articles/v4/y1882_109.htm), 1882:

To this day, the initiation beyond the Himalayas is followed by temporary death (from three to six months) of the disciple, often that of the Initiator; but the Buddhists do not spill blood, for they have a horror of it, knowing that blood attracts “evil powers.” At the initiation of the Chhinnamasta Tantrikas (from chhinna “severed” and masta “head”’—the Goddess Chhinnamasta being represented with a decapitated head), the Tantrik Shastras say that, as soon as the Adept has reached the highest degree of perfection, he has to initiate his successor and—die, offering his blood as an atonement for the sins of his brothers. He must “cut off his own head with the right hand, holding it in the left.” Three streams of blood gush out from the headless trunk. One of these is directed into the mouth of the decapitated head (“. . . my blood is drink indeed”—the injunction in John that so shocked the disciples); the other is directed toward the earth as an offering of the pure, sinless blood to mother Earth; and the third gushes toward heaven as a witness for the sacrifice of “self-immolation.” Now, this has a profound Occult significance which is known only to the initiated; nothing like the truth is explained by the Christian dogma, and imperfectly as they have defined it, the quasi-inspired “Authors of the Perfect Way” reveal the truth far nearer than any of the Christian commentators.

I do not know what Sastras she is speaking from, but we are aware of the practices she is talking about.

With Cinnamasta, we have a specific lineage derived from Crazy Princess Laksminkara. It may stem from older Aryan traditions of Renuka Ma. However the real tantric practice of it is Buddhist, and it is this which was copied back to the Hindu tantra or Mahavidya system. That is clearly what she is saying "Initiation" is.

Our simplest response is that it is the real matured esoteric Vajrayogini, and that the system we provide is an outer-to-inner Vajrayogini teaching, which was more or less the life mission of Abhayakaragupta. By asserting the "incarnations of Amitabha", she has indirectly invoked him.

It took me about twenty-five years to find that she said this about Cinnamasta.

So it is not pareidolia or confirmation bias.

It comes with a warning. Hindus say Cinnamasta is a Teevra and if you approach her unprepared or in vain, she may kill your family.

Her name however is really a verb, the head-cutting rite of Vajrayogini. Moreover, the Gelug system has Vajrayogini because Pabonkha (1878-1941) had got it from the Sakya. He claimed it was a secret or private practice of Tson kha pa. Most of the material that is easily found online comes from Pabonkha. It is too vast and gives the impression that the reading of a litany is going to take care of all of those things. Instead what we are advocating is a slow educational build-up.

Because HPB was not associated that formally with Gelug, but, rather, with the private retreat of the Panchen Lama, it is entirely possible that Vajrayogini and Cinnamasta lineages could be found there. I am not sure.

I was not born with psychic abilities, I figured out how to do yoga in a way that further down the road I would say is best explained by the Buddhist Vajrayogini system, and so at that point, HPB shows up in the courtyard of what I personally know and understand. There is nowhere else she says anything like this that I know of. She advises yoga broadly, agrees with tantra in a certain context, and is working for people trained in Vajrayogini.

Rather than burdening it with warnings or obscurity, I would say it only works one way, it only does one thing, to expand the Purified and Transcendental Awarenesses. That is what makes a Buddha. Anyone who is sincere can do it.

Both Chinese Yogacara and the very Mahayoga that she repudiated are very focused in the "transformation of the disciples" stage. Nirakara says that most other systems rely too much on just a declaration of the final state of a Buddha and how different and alien that is to an ordinary sentient being. The point of Asanga and Nirakara is how immanent Prajnaparamita really is. This is why we have a lot of original Indian material that is more valuable than what would otherwise appear to be more advanced designs by Pabonkha. None of it is Hatha Yoga, and, it is externally ritualized, shall we say, to the degree appropriate for the practitioner.

Tson kha pa used Kagyu Guhyasamaja and Nepalese Chakrasamvara. A good bit of what he says does somewhat resemble HPB's Prasangika attempts. Before long, however, we find he is an advocate of sexual yoga. And so it seems she might not have read that far into it. In fact, while most authors mention Bliss on a recurring basis, some Tson kha pa translations say Orgasmic Bliss about every thirty seconds.

H. H. First Karmapa (https://kagyuoffice.org/karmapa/the-tulku-tradition/) (1109-1193) was a disciple of Gampo and Rechung and began what is known as the Tibetan tulku system of reincarnating lamas. He did this without a significant pre-incarnation or attribution of him to a Bodhisattva, however the Black Hat is woven from Dakini hair because he was initiated by dakinis.

So what we call Kagyu is like a gigantic import of the final Nalanda system, whereas the Sakya lineages are about as old as Mahayoga. The Sakya are located along the Nepalese border. And so it is mainly this Sakya Vajrayogini system that we are dealing with.

All Nepalese Buddhists are "tantrics" because Vajrayana is the only kind present. Everyone recites Namasangiti. Those who question it for the profound things it has to say are fewer in number. Those who are driven to put money and time into a secretive location for training, even if an attic that just stays locked most of the time, are estimated in Nepal's three main Buddhist cities to be about a thousand in number there.

Accounting for the whole country, it is not expected to come up to more than around five thousand ardent devotees.

So in having many more translated manuscripts available now, we have a yoga system based in the Mahayana principle of study and interiorization. This is closer to the Chinese way. Most of us are not monks, nor are we in a position to take and uphold a major tantric commitment. There may be little connectivity with official branches of the Sangha. By focusing in original Sanskrit, it just about matches HPB's Alpha of "spiritual yoga generally" and Omega of "Cinnamasta tantra".

As far as I know, this information has never been picked up by adverse forces. It appears in a seemingly-unrelated article which also contains the correspondence:

Cupid, the god, is the seventh principle or the Brahm of the Vedantin, and Psyche is its vehicle, the sixth or spiritual soul. As soon as she feels herself distinct from her “consort”—and sees him—she loses him. Study the “Heresy of Individuality”—and you will understand.

Cupid or Eros is equivalent to Amitabha, or, Amida, which she actually says is Senzar for Adi Buddha.

NX.P

4th April 2022, 13:15

Here is the most modern incarnation I could find for HPB:

"In 1750 Vajra was born in Austria, as Zimski (Pere Josef)."

(Vajra was the 'star name' given to HPB according to Annie Besant's and C.W. Leadbeater's clairvoyant investigation of 48 lives of Jiddu Krishnamurti going back as far as 70,000BC in the Gobi region).
Ref: https://theosophy.wiki/en/Lives_of_Alcyone_(book)

I'm curious whether your friend feels any affinity for this Austrian lifetime as well.

Bo Atkinson

4th April 2022, 15:06

A Famous Buddhist Quote from the www:

“Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who said it, no matter if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense.”Daring to study and work independently has always been criticized and even targeted in this world. Common sense is hated by haters and loved by lovers.

Both Christian and Buddhist teaching have inspired the founding of the UN, no matter how some later mismanaged developments involved the same kinds of villains and conspiracies which have infiltrated almost every large fund of money, e.g. big biz, big science and big anything.

Accusations of fraud were the old strategy to keep any sort of sobering truth silent. The newer Orwellian strategies are disinformation and weapons of mass distraction against better knowledge. A little distraction may not hurt if it just adds better clarity to our errors in life.

Today we have the www to check out all sides of the story. Ideally this should encourage us to look and see, all sides of stories, (pertaining to our consciousness development). The predictions of cataclysms have energized me ever since the 1970s, to really choose understandable materials and practice the lessons learned.

No doubt the oldest sustaining cultures of India deserve much appreciation, but also we may deserve the realization that Buddha broke away from the "the powers that be" in ancient India.

It could be enough for people of other world-wide cultures to understand the modernized availability of higher knowledge, bypassing most of the Sanskrit articulation or acculturation. We may be as foreign to India as to Atlantis, and our intuitions, our attributes and our unconscious content could have accumulated in various world locations.

The English language bares sufficient content for me to progress forward with great respect for credible esotericians, who lived in any culture. The flaws of modernity can be avoided, providing we had already begun learning and choosing higher principles, higher virtues, learning about higher laws, and continuing with the that trend in some credible fashion.

It took kind of a selfless bravery to jump start a consciousness movement in the west. How odd is that? Have we any clue how fixated the west was in the 1800s?

Pertinent treatment from Laurency:
http://www.laurency.com/L3e/L3e5.pdf

shaberon

5th April 2022, 10:56

Both Christian and Buddhist teaching have inspired the founding of the UN, no matter how some later mismanaged developments involved the same kinds of villains and conspiracies which have infiltrated almost every large fund of money, e.g. big biz, big science and big anything.

I have brought up this particular question in the forum before, without getting answered. Alice Bailey has a claim that a few of them were members of the "occult hierarchy" and at first glance, it seems to come up as being the Synarchy. Is it separable from the Fabian Society. There are specific personages involved here. Is it an arm of the Inter-Parliamentary Union (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inter-Parliamentary_Union) of 1889? Was there anything besides utter villainy in its background?

Once it was formed I can say, there was, I think, Canadian, a Dr. Brock or someone who was the first leader of the health organization. He was controversial because he was one of the first to say that we should not automatically teach our children to believe in Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny and so forth.

He has been "revived" and twisted out of context by 1970s right wing literature, so, there is an anti-cult of him based on nothing.

I am sure that it must have attracted well-intentioned people like him, but, I am not sure that it was ever anything but a "program" at its core. The internationalist enclave at the time was really of a certain caliber.

Have we any clue how fixated the west was in the 1800s?

Very little at first, since, the Anti-Masonic Party (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Masonic_Party#:~:text=The%20Anti%2DMasonic%20Party%2C%20also,take%20positions%20on%20other%20issues. ) starting around 1801:

The Anti-Masons emerged as an important third-party alternative to Andrew Jackson's Democrats and Adams's National Republicans. In New York, the Anti-Masons supplanted the National Republicans as the primary opposition to the Democrats.

Jackson was more or less the last American spine, resisting the British and their Bank which had been defeated in 1812. Our national anthem is based in this occurrence but who remembers it?

Anti-Masonry promoted Conspiracy Theory via Nesta Webster and others.

On a socio-political level, there was a high degree of combative awareness, which is corroded and tossed to the side by the implementation of the Federal Reserve and then the coming of the Synarchy.

In terms of consciousness expansion or practice of a spiritual path, no, I am not particularly aware of this being the case. In the 1800s for political reasons, Italians were granted asylum and so Catholicism became a much larger presence than previously. By becoming interested in ghosts and ouija boards and so forth, to Theosophy this was seen as degradation.

At the time, it was probably considered that among the Masons there might be some slightly open minds. The U. S. never had Natural Science institutions or Alchemy to ban. It has Masons, who, according to those who follow the Jesuit view of the French Revolution, must be stopped. Hence the party, and everything leading to Jew scares and Zionism and Nazism.

The first thing that seems to be widely misunderstood in anti-Masonic literature is that Craft Masonry only has Four Degrees. There is no such thing for example as a Thirty-third Degree Mason. These other degree systems pertain to optional practices called systems of Rites. There are many of these. They represent man's attempt to Restore the Mysteries, or to rework Gnosticism, or something along those lines. And so it may be that somewhere within the Rites is a nugget or two of value. For instance, in hopes that Annie Besant would work out as a TS organizer, HPB had a magnificent jewel of the Knight of Rose Croix that she passed along, which I think is the eighteenth degree in some systems.

If I remember rightly, it has the pelican wounding itself to feed her young. In any case, we get the sense that some of the subjects in the Rites may not be a total loss.

I do not think they are as good as Theosophy.

Most of the early Americans were Deists (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deism) which as Buddhists, or at least as Yogacara, we would not accept, because it is the practice of Reason, and the denial of mystery and revelation.

Here in the U. S. we had excellent early examples of political awareness, but nothing much I would call particularly spiritual.

In the Glossary, HPB does have a name for the "kind" of Buddhism she was supposed to teach:

Amrita-yana (Sanskrit) Amṛta-yāna [from a not + mṛta dead from the verbal root mṛ to die + yāna path, vehicle] The path of immortality; in The Voice of the Silence the path followed by the Buddhas of Compassion or of Perfection. It is the “secret path,” the arya (noble) path of the heart doctrine of esoteric wisdom. The Buddhas of Compassion instead of donning the dharmakaya vesture and then entering nirvana, as the Pratyeka Buddhas do, give up nirvana and assume the nirmanakaya robe, thus enabling them to work directly for all beings less evolved than they; and because of this great individual sacrifice, the nirmanakaya condition is in one sense the holiest of the trikaya (three vestures). The amrita-yana is thus a lofty spiritual pathway, and leads to the ineffable glories of self-conscious immortality in the cosmic manvantaric “eternity.”

The term may also refer to the “immortal vehicle” within each person, the individuality in contradistinction to the evanescent personality; that is, “the Spiritual Soul, or the Immortal monad — a combination of the fifth, sixth and seventh” principles (ML 114).

By "Monad" it means what was called in Theosophy, Atma Buddhi Manas. Then she will give the operative principle of Secret Skull Worship or Secret Mantra as practiced in Nepal:

Amrita (Sanskrit) Amṛta [from a not + mṛta dead from the verbal root mṛ to die] Immortality; the water of life or immortality, the ambrosial drink or spiritual food of the gods. According to the Puranas, Ramayana, and Mahabharata, amrita is the elixir of life produced during the contest between the devas and asuras when churning the “milky sea” (the waters of life). It has been stolen many times, but as often recovered, and it is still preserved carefully in devaloka.

In the Vedas, amrita is applied to the mystical soma juice, which makes a new man of the initiate and enables his spiritual nature to overcome and govern the lower elements of his nature. It is beyond any guna (quality), for it is unconditioned per se (cf SD 1:348). Mystically speaking, therefore, amrita is the “drinking” of the water of supernal wisdom and the spiritual bathing in its life-giving power. It means the rising above all the unawakened or prakritic elements of the constitution, and becoming at one with and thus living in the kosmic life-intelligence-substance.

And here she will give the educated side of Nepalese Buddhism an extraordinarily high rank:

Svabhavika (Sanskrit) Svābhāvika [from svabhāva self-becoming] The Svabhavika school, perhaps the oldest existing school of Buddhism, is one of the principal Buddhist philosophical system and is still prevalent in Nepal. Its teachings are highly mystical, and when properly understood may be said to have remained faithful in large degree to the esoteric teachings of Gautama Buddha. The Svabhavika philosophers teach the becoming or unfolding of the self by inner impulse or evolution of the inherent seeds of individuality lying latent in every monad or jiva.

Like all other profound philosophic systems, the Svabhavika has been subjected to misinterpretation, in this case taking the form of a somewhat materialistic framework of thought. The inner essential teaching, however, is identic with the more spiritual outlook of Mahayana systems of Northern Asia.

The Sphinx here is that Brian Hodgson had already published the majority of the framework of Nepalese Buddhism by 1840. It is still considered highly accurate and everything is about the same. This, however, was overlooked by western experts, and still is. It is a lot easier and straightforward than going to Tibet and China and so forth. If anything, rather than Gelug, the Mahatmas say their system is closest to that of Nepal.

Svabhava and Amritayana are packed together by G. de Purucker in what he calls the Seven Jewels of Bhagavad Gita (https://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/forum/f26n12p742_the-seven-jewels-in-the-bhagavad.htm). However this is extraordinarily unclear as it does not seem to come from the book itself, but, rather, almost looks like a handful of tenets of Nepalese Buddhism forcefully aimed at the Gita--although "amritayana" is Puranic.

Trevor Barker (https://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/hill/hill_of_discernment.pdf) apparently also gave this same set-up.

Those are agreeable enough tenets, except they are not the Seven Jewels of Enlightenment. I do not know how it actually matches any eastern scripture or system of practice. By sticking to a basic definition of Karma as "Cause and Effect", it has nothing really to do with the Buddhist Karma Family. Rather than following this list almost religiously, they would have been better off to extrapolate Hodgson's information. He certainly didn't know what it was.

We do, of course, have a seven-principled book which is based on Bhagavad Gita, RGV, but this is not what it says. It may be somewhat close if we were to rake over these seven with a process of synonyms and interpretations. Books like Voice of the Silence are intended to be primers and study guides. Whereas if we follow through on HPB's definition of just Amrita itself, it actually does almost entirely summarize the real tantric Path.

Others have picked up on this "Amritayana" and equated it to the Fourth Turning, which is really Tathagatagarbha and Vajrayana. If you take de Purucker's idea--i. e., take the right definition of the term Amrita and carry it into the actual teachings about it--then you will be fine. As to the whole set of things, unless it can be traced then it is in the vein of "commentarial tradition".

According to Barker, these are actually the Keys of the Secret Doctrine.

Perhaps that makes it "the practice of Theosophy".

It is a blend of the Puranas and Nepalese Buddhism. However it is correct to say that there is one Buddhist Purana, which is the Swayambhu Purana of Nepal.

Svabhāva (स्वभाव) is a name for Svayambhū (or Ādi-Buddha), according to the Svābhāvika, a popular buddhist sect in Nepal

In Hinduism, it is considered Carvaka or Atheism, as it views self-propelled substances rather than a Creator.

However if it misses the point that consciousness is an aspect of a certain substance, then it would seem to contradict the usage of Svabhava as a mental presence in Vaisnava and Sakta, and in Buddhist Yogacara as the Three Natures of the Knowable:

three svabhāva, mentioned Laṅkāvatāra-sūtra 132.4; 227.10; 348.10; and listed 67.2 ff. as parikalpita, paratantra, and pariniṣpanna

It is fairly atheistic towards most types of Creator-based religions, while it is actually pantheistic in honoring all life and its potential to rise to divinity.

The Mahatma letters explain better but do not quite "mandala-ize" these Keys, where as we have seen, "infinite life" is Buddhist Amitayus or Greek Eros:

The initiated Brahmin calls it Brahman and Sakti when manifesting as that force. We will perhaps be nearer correct to call it infinite life and the source of all life visible and invisible, an essence inexhaustible ever present, in short Swabhavat.

It is pravritti when active, nirvritti when passive. Call it the Sakti of Parabrahma, if you like, and say with the Adwaitees (Subba Row is one) that Parabrahm plus Maya becomes Iswar the creative principle -- a power commonly called God which disappears and dies with the rest when pralaya comes. Or you may hold with the northern Buddhist philosophers and call it Adi-Buddhi the all-pervading supreme and absolute intelligence with its periodically manifesting Divinity -- "Avalokiteshvara"...

Again here then we are easily able to refer this to well-known Buddhist practices (Amitayus, Sukhavati, etc.) dating to ca. year 300 which have spread into multiple countries. But by this choice of doctrines, we would almost say he is preaching Nepalese Buddhism. If we try to get something like this from Tibet, we might get chased out. Buddhists fog their own understanding by refusing to admit our goddesses are Shaktis. This by far is a greater key to getting the whole system to actually work. HPB has not really defined Amritayana in a way that is much different from Mahayana. She is just describing a reincarnating Bodhisattva. Moreover, we can finish her sentence and say that Honey Doctrine or Madhu Vidya (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madhu-vidya) is the Yogacara that starts in Brihadaranyaka Upanishad and used basically the same way, but, as Bodhisattva practice, in Mahayana Buddhism. All of the historical evolution through Atharva Veda and the Puranas is based in this. So it has always been the esoteric cream of other yogas, and, still, one of our main subjects.

That is the Key to Indian Alchemy.

HPB met Morya in Hyde Park, London, in 1841, in such a way as to obscure his mode of travel. At one point it was with the Nepal delegation, and at another it was The Great Exposition. He became infamous for refusing to meet the Queen and was called in the newspapers, "Raja Misanthrope" and "Prince Jamla Samson" as a result. He is an unusual character as one of the few things he says of himself is:

My Rajput blood will never permit me to see a woman hurt in her feelings

Koothoomi was of Punjabi heritage, and his family had moved to Kashmir and Ladakh relatively recently before the advent of Theosophy. So in this area, there are plenty of reasons that he could easily have entered Buddhism. Morya has identified himself as something solidly Indian from a Hindu or Sikh region, that would have little ostensible reason to be connected. Not in a way that would make him exclusively Buddhist without having converted from something else. As to the prevalence of spiritual growth in the west, he says:

Ransack the Spiritualistic literature if you will till the year 1877. Search and find in it -- if you can, one single word about occult philosophy, or esotericism or anything of that element now so largely infused in the spiritual movement. Ask and enquire whether the very word of "occultism" was not so completely unknown in America, that
we find Cora of the 7 husbands, the Zappan woman and talking medium inspired in her lectures to say that the word was one just coined by the Theosophists -- then dawning --; that no one ever heard of elementary spirits and "astral" light -- save the petroleum manufacturers and so on and on.

Comparatively, Europe had many who were interested in the Egyptian discoveries and so forth; some edge of curiosity in magic and occultism was always in the background. Out of this, it was considered that Levi was coming closest to what the Mahatmas were interested in. Their associates whom we might call "real underground Rosicrucians" were few in number and were not publishing books. Ever since the French Revolution, quiet survival mode was much more important.

The Mahatmas can most clearly be seen as practitioners of "Svabhavika Yana", portrayed in Lotus Family Buddhism of Nepal, synonymous to the original Eros and Psyche. We can check, but, Tson kha pa most likely refutes this. But it is fine in Yogacara. It is fairly system-specific, whereas "Amrita Yana" is not really a Buddhist term at all. Because original Theosophy was at least temporarily successful in India, then, one could perhaps glimpse a need to somehow interleave Buddhism and Adwaita, because it would not ordinarily be accepted.

It is didactic because Buddhism does have multiple languages and systems of other schools folded into it already.

My atonement to Vajrayogini consists in explaining this Amrita and its thread in Buddhist Yoga.

It is not necessary to go around for twenty years with nebulous doctrines and practices.

Comparatively, what we have as Kagyu Guru Yoga is Adi Buddha but not in that Lotus Family expression. When I was young I was actually afraid to ask for Long Life or Immortality as I thought it was like asking to wander in form and continue to sin. And so I personally do not have that much bond to the more well-known practices. However I do know that Amrita in Buddhism is exactly what it says it is, which is how we do Subtle or Suksma Yoga. If HPB had really emphasized this term like she was supposed to, it might have become obvious a long time ago. By now, like the Mahatmas and English, it is difficult if not impossible to express myself about how real, important, and definitive this is.

That is what I mean by "practices"--in much the same way that HPB said Raja Yoga was generally safe to do--this is the same. Following the guide. I messed something up horribly and I have to go back and redo it.

Unlike what was stated above, the actual aim of Buddhist meditation is Sambhoga Kaya:

https://mdenoya.files.wordpress.com/2017/11/rainbow-body-of-guru-rinpoche.jpg?w=621

Sambhoga is stable in the Akanistha and so, i. e., is arbitrarily permanent. A Nirmana Kaya is a response or emanation from it. The challenge, so to speak, is in using this effulgent power, to manifest Perfection in the Nirmana Kaya. A Buddha has Full Sambhogakaya, and others only have incremental tastes.

That is why there is what we might call Vajrayogini's system of Amrita.

Vajrayogini is an advancement of Tara. And so on the one hand, basic Tara is easily and quickly accessible as a Yidam or meditational deity. Over time, as a mantric science, she has many various forms. Eventually, you will become able to do Subtle Yoga and Vajrayogini will become relevant. It is not that different from studying Theosophy, except it is about practices.

The Keys as given are not Buddhist in any way, except for the configuration of Amrita and Pratyeka which are not technically the right names for, but here are presented as, Greater and Lesser Vehicle Buddhists, in the study of a non-Buddhist text, Bhagavad Gita.

Well, Tri Yana really is a Yogacara doctrine, it is the same as Gotra or spiritual disposition and tradition. And this has two kinds of Lesser, and then the Mahayana Buddhist. According to the definitions of meditation, then, only the Mahayanist has really got the Jewel Gotra which is the Dhatu or Mental Element, which is the Tathagatagarbha. And, it is this Dhatu which replaces "Atman" in the Buddhist quote of Bhagavad Gita.

So Yogacara is going to react to a sweeping statement like "Everyone has Buddha Nature" by something like "well yes, sort of, but...the Mahayana Buddhist has it consciously".

Or, it almost denies you have a mind, in the spiritual sense, unless you have the Bodhisattva intent. There is no Atma other than the kind that serves these purposes.

What is also true is that this kind of inter-textuality was a standard device of intelligentsia and literati. And so Maitreya is really at a level of scholarship that the target audience would be perfectly aware that BG was being pulled in. Obermilller first published RGV in the 1950s, and within around three years, an Indian reader had responded with this fact.

Exactly why there are quasi-Buddhist terms in the otherwise Puranic Theosophical Keys, I am not sure. Going the other way, we can see that Maitreya is doing a sort of Buddhist-modified Adwaita. This is a Sastra. He is explaining Seven Mysteries from a Buddhist Sutra, and quoting other places, including Bhagavad Gita in a somewhat bold way. Jewel or Ratna Gotra is the title of the whole text. Surely the Gotra--Dhatu--Atman must be a significant subject, the Tathagatagarbha or Buddha Nature.

So it is, but this is not a matter of conviction but of practice, which is Yogacara, or Mahayana itself.

Historical Asanga went on a journey because he was frustrated with the Hinayana level of meditations he was given. It may have had some visualizations and mantras and Buddhist Abhidharma, but, in his view, it failed to really seize and increase the power of a Bodhisattva. Mahayana was not a new idea, but the practices were not living up to the archetypes. And so Maitreya is mainly the teacher of yoga meditation. This is, more or less, Nirakara without very many kinds of actual practices, and Ratnakarasanti is Nirakara with the majority of the Sarma system except for Kalachakra. RGV is the root of all those sadhanas.

Even most of the other Indian schools were deviations, except for Candragomin. Ratnakarasanti's point with Triyana is that those beings in the Lesser Gotras are still able to receive the relief of liberation from harmful emotions. They can attain a spiritual benefit but they do not become a Buddha. Instead someone's claim to be in the Greater Gotra is falsifiable because it has requirements concerning whether they actually do it or it is in name only. And so if one acquires a doctrine that negates the way Maitreya is teaching meditation, I do not see how that is supposed to help. He has already taken Prajnaparamita, Nagarjuna, Sunyata, and Catuskoti for granted. The yoga he is giving cannot be penetrated by Reason, and Cessation of Thought only gives part of it. Most of it is in the sadhanas and especially the technique of Amrita.

shaberon

6th April 2022, 09:10

I have spent some time puzzling over the Providence of the United Nations, in what way it may stand for or be attempting to unfold a particularly spiritual act.

With "later mismanaged developments" of big industries, it seems they have not infiltrated, but, "are" the Fondi of Venice passed through Antwerp--Brussels--Amsterdam--London. It knowingly armed the Bolsheviks, Soviets, and Nazis, which the public at the time did not really understand.

AB and Lucis Trust were active in New York since around 1922. That was the League of Nations era, the thing that more or less directly spawned the United Nations. It is relatively difficult to figure out who was involved with Lucis. So just to temporarily keep her at arm's length, what does the organization say for itself?

There actually is a United Nations NGO that specializes in this, CSVGC (http://csvgc-ny.org/spiritual-history-of-the-un/).

It says that "spiritual growth" is one of its original values, and that "spiritual consciousness" is expressed by the Preamble. Let us review:

WE THE PEOPLES OF THE UNITED NATIONS DETERMINED
to save succeeding generations from the scourge of war, which twice in our lifetime has brought untold sorrow to mankind, and

to reaffirm faith in fundamental human rights, in the dignity and worth of the human person, in the equal rights of men and women and of nations large and small, and

to establish conditions under which justice and respect for the obligations arising from treaties and other sources of international law can be maintained, and

to promote social progress and better standards of life in larger freedom,

AND FOR THESE ENDS
to practice tolerance and live together in peace with one another as good neighbours, and

to unite our strength to maintain international peace and security, and

to ensure, by the acceptance of principles and the institution of methods, that armed force shall not be used, save in the common interest, and

to employ international machinery for the promotion of the economic and social advancement of all peoples,

HAVE RESOLVED TO COMBINE OUR EFFORTS TO ACCOMPLISH THESE AIMS.
Accordingly, our respective Governments, through representatives assembled in the city of San Francisco, who have exhibited their full powers found to be in good and due form, have agreed to the present Charter of the United Nations and do hereby establish an international organization to be known as the United Nations.

Is that spiritual? It sounds socio-political to me. Message is missing. History is already littered with shattered peace treaties. Well, it has negotiated a temporary cease-fire. But that is just part of a continuing program to make Germany work for Europe.

They do, however, have a few paragraphs on "spiritual history". It says the moment of silence and the meditation room were brought in by the Laymen's Movement (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laymen%27s_Home_Missionary_Movement), which is The Watchtower/Jehovah's Witnesses.

Further along the CSVGC page are more recent "spiritual additions" such as Aquarian Age and others, certainly none of which are Christianity or Buddhism. Although they too talk about the "spiritual foundation". If I look at this, I seem to become confused rather quickly. More like a New Age book store.

Since 1995, Lama Gangchen (d. 2020) has not yet established the Spiritual Forum for World Peace.

At the 60th Anniversary (https://isgp-studies.com/miscellaneous/2014_08_Coast_to_Coast/2005-10-27-united-nations-spirit-program-seat.pdf) we are able to find him and the Syrian Church. This far into it, we are able to find that Christianity and Buddhism are allowed to participate, sort of, but I would not tend to call it at the level of "founders".

AB is actually closer to the Council on Foreign Relations, a 1920s vehicle before the U. N., but we also know there is a kind of throughput and revolving door since powers have learned to coin any number of "agencies" and shift themselves around. Before Versailles, and behind most of the twentieth century, was the Pilgrims' Society. Just as raw data, for what is known of its members, the Pilgrims are by far mostly committed to one group.

CFR: 235

The next two biggest groups are Morgan and Rockefeller employees, and then:

UN: 84, including a number of founders, board members of the private UN association, and the League of Nations being dominated by Pilgrims.

And so not only does the group straddle both generations of internationalist collectives, but, it can be found to have individuals who were highly influential in both, such as:

Lord Makins (League and United Nations)

Lord Robert Cecil (Versailles Treaty, League and UN)

and there we are already at one of the most influential dynasties since the time of Queen Elizabeth. It is hard to get more British Imperialistic than Cecil.

The United States, by having Chinese and Japanese settlers, already has Buddhism in those communities, but of course those are racially segregated and have no part in public consciousness, of which there is little until perhaps the time of D. T. Suzuki. and Evans-Wentz ca. 1927.

Here, in the 1930s, were a few fringe publications that were at least somewhat accurate towards actual Buddhism, versus dynasties from the beginning of the British Empire. Then there also became the personal mysticism of the Roerichs (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicholas_Roerich), which got the attention of the U. S. government at some level. I am not sure how physically possible it might have been for very many English speaking Americans to have been particularly aware of Buddhism.

UNESCO, IMF, and World Bank were already formed before the United Nations itself. Everything was mostly heavily developed by certain Allied nations, and then as previous talks headed into what actually went into writing, it was to:

draft the charter of a postwar international organization based on the principle of collective security.

So it is a bit like terms of surrender, pre-loaded with parasites that half the world does not understand. It sounds exactly like the phase of a plan where someone is satisfied they have conquered Germany, and are going to find new ways to either own or physically break Russia/U. S. S. R. and China next, especially since the poor fools have no idea how modern finance is going to try to pick up where colonialism left off.

The U. N. is therefor a lot like the moment of the U. S. Federal Reserve upgraded to the global scale.

It does not seem to be specifically Israeli Zionist by its main design, and, it would probably be reasonable to say that they opportunistically took advantage of it as soon as they could.

ULT took place in California in the early 1900s. B. P. Wadia rejected the Indian Adyar TS, came to join the ULT, and then in the 1920s opened a few lodges on the east coast and in London, France, and India. I am not sure it has really grown that much since then. These are just small libraries and a handful of people.

Although some Buddhist cultures had more or less gained peace with Tsarist Russia:

The Soviet law for separating church and education immediately disintegrated the Buddhist culture of Buryatia in 1925.

Book printing [in Buryatia] developed quickly. In 1887, twenty-nine print shops were already in operation, which until their destruction in the 1930s published about 2000 book titles, written in Tibetan and Mongolian.

The Soviets physically destroyed Kalmyck Buddhism; some of them emigrated to Serbia in 1929 and the U. S. in the 1950s.

China, of course, became rather unfriendly to Tibet.

The decades running up to the U. N. do not see Buddhism inspiring much of anything, but, actually suffering losses in its native places. The first significant Japanese American Buddhist organization was made in the prison camp.

This "inter-war" period of the 1920s-30s is more characterized by Golden Dawn, Yogananda, and I Am, and various uses of the free press. Or of the secret door.

I would say that Buddhism became more publicly-knowable starting with Dr. Alex Wayman around 1958. And then in the 1970s we had Vajradhatu (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vajradhatu) which actually was the American move of Buddhism generally:

Vajradhatu hosted visits by Rangjung Rigpe Dorje, 16th Karmapa, head of the Kagyu, in 1974, Khyentse Norbu, head of the Nyingma, in 1976, and the 14th Dalai Lama in 1981.

If you follow it through time, many of its leaders became corrupt, and also created Shambhala Training which is their own thing, not exactly traditional Buddhism. It has actually become an embarrassment to the Tibetan elders. I really do not know off the top of my head how to know the difference between regular Kagyu and these crazy wisdom places.

So although the Beat Poets and some others have admired sayings and so forth that are from Buddhism, I am not sure how much any of the public "gets it". I have read several Q & A sessions that really make it seem like people have difficulty with basic things that are in it. I am not persuaded that the Lamas always have a very satisfying answer. Sometimes they do.

Although C. Jung was to some extent influenced by the books of Evans-Wentz, he was not a Buddhist, and for example in 1938 (https://carljungdepthpsychologysite.blog/2020/07/31/carl-jung-letter-to-w-y-evans-wentz/#.Yk1XQlXMK1s) wrote to him essentially a denial of Nirakara, similar to the argument of Jnanasrimitra in the eleventh century. He is like Harari, they have a meditative technique but they do not really have basic qualities that are supposed to go along with it.

Bo Atkinson

6th April 2022, 13:41

I have spent some time puzzling over the Providence of the United Nations, in what way it may stand for or be attempting to unfold a particularly spiritual act.

United-anything sounds attractive, and someone involved with wealth, reached out to promote a struggling author.

Otherwise, public outreach was limited without a bigger basis for promotion. Where could she find that? What other avenue exists at all?

A corporation or charter can conceivably start out honestly, but then it can get abused by others, and then if it sells, it can get super charged into the weirdest worldwide agendas.

Big-time marketers and share holders took hold and developed a branding. It was taken out of her hand.

Abusers are able use the cover of higher ideals, and that can brighten up the front office.

At least, she was spared having to live through a very old age to witness that kind of outcome.

With the internet, her books are published free of charge, downloaded as PDFs. Great karma, methinks. Ultimately she gave more than she took from life.

On the other hand, they say that bad news or bad notoriety is good advertising, just to get a word out edgewise. The observer can decide for themself.

What kind of world is this? It just is what it is.

Religion has its own promoted brands and issues, (both east and west, north and south). Truer esoterics is basically free of this, because it is almost unheard of, and for the most part, it gets falsified and hijacked. Sound familiar?

Humans are left to work from a low stage of development, on their own and through the issues they so create.

A cleaner organic work-up would make more sense, if we focused right, but we leave that problem to others, to the default vendors, with their seductive branding.

Then we learn about our lack of scientific concerns, e.g.... The forever chemicals, (Per/polyfluoroalkyls), now available in drinking water. Out of site, out of mind. Do we support legislation to stop the spread, or do nothing, and then eat the contaminated foods.

Blavatsky also became much wider read, due to the very bad press she got, when her books were finally circulated.

What was so bad there? People wanted to know, so study commenced.

The increased availability of these books found their way out into a world which was very uninterested in wisdom or brotherhood.

The higher leaders of India in the 1800s greatly assisted the western debunker of Blavatsky, because they wanted to keep their secrets of higher learning all to themselves. The idea of westerners getting hold of these secrets was not what they wanted, not at all.

shaberon

8th April 2022, 10:36

The higher leaders of India in the 1800s greatly assisted the western debunker of Blavatsky, because they wanted to keep their secrets of higher learning all to themselves. The idea of westerners getting hold of these secrets was not what they wanted, not at all.

There are a few angles on that.

During her lifetime it was mainly stuff like the Coulombs, who said that the Mahatmas were sheets over balloons.

This has a lot to do with the public greed for "proof" of supernatural abilities and so forth. Unfortunately, that is not even the point; but how does one get their attention?

To contend with the subjects that she actually wrote is another matter.

In her whole catalogue are no practices. The most extensive thing that she even taught was to get people to say Om when they first wake up. No context. She didn't say you had better convert to Shiva first. Just experience the sound in the appropriate mindset.

Bhagavad Gita and Vishnu Purana had been entirely translated; but I am unaware of retaliation over these.

I would say that Orthodox Hinduism took over the TS, and then we get the wave of Krishna = Christ teachings. In the Theosophical view, this is correct, but it means the seventh principle. It's not something you sing to. HPB opposed their exoteric doctrines. These schools are mostly Vasistadvaita or "qualified", which to an extent accepts the Advaita tenet that man's seventh principle is qualitatively identical to Brahman--but then they always hold "you" out as a lesser quantity, and there is always a bigger "He".

If that is how someone wants to train, ok, but it is not Adwaita or Buddhism. And of course they are heavily monied interests, able to publish a hundred times as many books and information and so on.

The first main thing I remember someone flaming her about was Dhyani Buddhas because it is not Tibetan. But it is Nepali.

I am not sure I have come across anything from the Vedas or Puranas where she was off. It may not suit the believers of other schools, but it reveals more than it conceals. And here again I am even a bit similar to her detractors: I am trying to falsify anything she says if it really does not bear out. A lot of Lamas appear to still have the same type of difficulty she did, lacking much of a way to distinguish Buddhism from Hindu Yoga, letting it blend in as another synonym. And so her Buddhist explanations are kind of muddled, but, the main thing she consistently says of her Lodge and practice is:

Yogacara.

This has nothing to do with Tson kha pa, who refutes aspects of it, and so Gelug generally is not the same kind of environment. It has a lot to do with Asanga, whom she dismisses for evidently copying some part of Mahatantra. I have not found this yet and I do not know what she is talking about. She makes a lot of virulent warnings about sorcery, where she could have expanded what she said on Mantra. This is where Hodgson, Jung, etc., grind themselves out. They go blank on central elements of Buddhism like this because they cannot understand or cannot do it. Yogacara is definitely Asanga's teaching blended with Mantra. In its time, yes, it was certainly exoteric and popular. But one would be unable to do what we consider esoteric procedures without this foundation.

Because HPB heavily argues pro-Svasamvedana, then she really is pro-Asanga Yogacara and refuting Tson kha pa.

Here is some bird's eye Wiki stuff about how there came to be a Kalmyk Buddhist nation in Europe. It has to do with Kagyu forming an alliance with the descendants of Genghis Khan (Khalkas):

After the fall of the Mongol Yuan dynasty of China in 1368, the Oirats emerged as a formidable foe against the Khalkha Mongols, the Chinese Ming dynasty (1368–1644) and the Manchus who founded the Qing dynasty in China in 1644. For 400 years, the Oirats conducted a military struggle for domination and control over both Inner Mongolia and Outer Mongolia. The struggle ended in 1757 with the defeat of the Oirats in Dzungaria; they were the last of the Mongol groups to resist vassalage to Qing.

The Oirats converted to Tibetan Buddhism around 1615, and it was not long before they became involved in the conflict between the Gelug and Karma Kagyu schools. At the request of the Gelug school, in 1637, Güshi Khan, the leader of the Khoshuts in Koko Nor, defeated Choghtu Khong Tayiji, the Khalkha prince who supported the Karma Kagyu school, and conquered Amdo (present-day Qinghai). The unification of Tibet followed in the early 1640s, with Güshi Khan proclaimed Khan of Tibet by the 5th Dalai Lama and the establishment of the Khoshut Khanate. The title "Dalai Lama" itself was bestowed upon the third lama of the Gelug tulku lineage by Altan Khan.

Kalmyks are a migration of these Oirats. It is mainly Gelug that has the Mongolic tribes who themselves became zealous about Russia. It may sound odd to us that although they were very violent, they are not called barbarians and ostracized. A large part of the difference is the honesty of it. I say something, and you agree, or we fight. It's not the glitter of colonialism and false money and social engineering as comes from Europe. Most "native cultures" have figured out this ruse; the same reaction has been expressed in Himachal, by the Maori, and American Indians, who knows how many others...usually when it is too late for them.

For two people to travel around the world following an apparent Gelug to convert to Buddhism in Sri Lanka remains an odd circumstance. It was mostly within the intent of a hundred year plan to put something in English from Tibetan Gelugs, and yet this context can hardly be found. It would have, if she had survived longer, but was in some way published as S. D. III by Ms. Besant; and I cannot say what anyone may have made of this at the time. The Collected Writings went to Boris de Zirkoff and I cannot remember the timeline of their publication.

If I speculate about it, perhaps it suggests that Tson kha pa is the ultimate mystic known to history, and so that when the "western public" somehow does interface with Tibetan Gelugpas, they will be given great respect because of following this profound man.

It sounds like an art of persuasion, because otherwise they could have simply said "here, copy these actual texts".

However it is still true that Buddhism was built with Indian culture. And Tibet for example uses Chinese astrology. The system, so to speak, does not. Although Theosophy does exalt Tson kha pa, both HPB and the Mahatmas speak of "original Indian esoteric Buddhism", to which the closest is Nepalese, such as with Svabhava and Dhyani Buddhas. That definitely is Yogacara. Because of Svasamvedana, she is implying Samputa Tantra, as Abhayakaragupta and Vajrayogini did.

"More detail" about Nepalese Buddhism was not really even available in the west until 1995.

There, it was never a difficulty to have Sanskrit Asanga. They do not have Tson kha pa and those things. Instead they have memories of Historical Buddhas, such as Vispasin, Krakucchanda, Kanakamuni, and Kasyapa. They definitely have more of a trace-it-to-the-beginning-of-the-world feel even though those Buddhas had limited followings.

If HPB was trying to get Yogacara to "include" Prasangika, then she was trying to do what Ratnakarasanti already did. His technique is in saying, well, with three or four modifications, then you are in my school. Almost all of the others are very divisive, and call each other fools and so on. But the actual Yogacara just argues its points, and says once you realize this, you are doing it. It is about the open-est example of anything so incredibly specific.

To try to explain what Kagyu is, Ratnakarasanti is at the head of its famous elders. He was the teacher of Maitri. From Maitri to Marpa, Gampo, Mila...in fact he would fill in the empty spot the way they normally say it, which would become Tilo, Naro, Ratnakara, Maitri, Marpa...and the main basket of scriptures is known as Marpa Kagyu. So they are essentially representing the literature of Nalanda and India emigrating to Tibet in the wake of the Mughals.

The first Karmapa was the first Tibetan tulku. And then one of the earliest comprehensive Tibetan Yogacara manuals is that of H. H. Third Karmapa Rangjung Dorje (1284–1339). It is translated as Luminous Heart (https://www.buddism.ru///__UPLOAD_BOOKS/Tibetan_Buddhism/Brunnho%CC%88lzl,%20Karl%20-%20Luminous%20Heart_The%20Third%20Karmapa%20on%20Consciousness,%20Wisdom,%20and%20Buddha%20Nature.pd f).

https://tsony.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/07/3rd-Karmapa-2-1200x1279.jpg

One of the doctrines he gives is about the regular Buddhist term Eight Consciousnesses. He says that there are really only seven consciousnesses, because the eighth, Alaya Vijnana, is effectively removed by the practice of Yogacara.

Although this sounds like the Theosophical "system of seven", it is not a linear match, because it is a meditation practice that deals with Manas. And so that is the closest way you could put it, Buddhism has a Sevenfold Manas. It is a training to collapse the Manas, so you will experience what Theosophy would call the higher planes, Atma Buddhi. Except it is not described that way whatsoever.

It is a subtle point, but, Buddhism does not directly match the same kind of universal Theosophical system, particularly because it is not based from the view of Creation. It will work admirably with a "system of seven", but, this would be more along the lines of Buddha Families, which are not planes or principles in the Theosophical sense.

Bo Atkinson

8th April 2022, 16:01

There are a few angles on that.
[...]

You cite immense information with extensive terminology and meanings, far beyond what I know, except for one salient point. I know that higher worlds are not exclusively attained by Indian methods or Buddhist methods, exclusively, no matter how vitally important these practices were in themselves.

By focusing on Theosophy, this thread is liberated from "a whole catalogue" or exclusive practices, or singular methodologies, with all the esoteric terminology, on an English speaking forum, via extensive and foreign terms, to explain Theosophy.

Blavatsky wrote pretty much ad hoc, to get communication lines kick-started. She had the strength to do that, few others could open really deep communication lines between east and west, in 1875. She wasn't polishing up a complete system or teaching for posterity. There was no instant-nirvana as the rock song sang about.

Just a strong, international communication avenue, between east and west was needed first, to benefit mankind with eastern consciousness examples, and to introduce these, ultimately for studies with western scientific habits. This was a gradual unfolding, and not HPB's job, as we already know.

What has remained of Theosophy is its own individualized makings, and not in the hands of HPB nor the original founders, nor of the higher worlds. The law of non-interference is maintained. The modern Theosophical org, big- gov, big biz, and the UN are all contrivances on their own personalized responsibilities, (of the individual people who control them).

48745

We can learn from human practices and groups, if we choose to. I pick and choose to better understand mankind's progress, and with due diligence, in an effort to progress beyond the difficult errors, except of course, I'm just human myself, so that I practice with interesting conversation.

There is not one shoe which fits each and everyone of us for this difficult journey on planet earth, so that proselytizing is not likely an effective guide, for developing consciousness. Learning about what has been done here and done there might spur us on, to find the best method we can, and live with the results of method we choose.

With all due respect for other views on this subject matter, may this be discussed: For all my learning, Advaita might be an absolute from of subjectivism. I'm studying this very difficult teaching. We have huge western forms of subjectivism too. Is this correct? Good science rejects subjectivism as personally propped up and applied constructs, (illusion). Could these illusions become deeply ingrained, from one lifetime to subsequent lifetime?

Can subjectivism be removed from our habituation? The scientific method provides some tools to experiment with this prospect. Will we balance science with spirituality for mutual, comprehension?

Here again, Theosophy is an open space to discuss this kind of question and to answer these processes in human life. Illusionism is not blamed on the east nor the west nor on the north or south. It just is something which holds us in the emotional world here and beyond, in the physical life and beyond the physical, it holds us back from becoming aware of higher processes, and it bars us from worlds beyond the higher emotional or higher mental worlds.

This is not accusatory, but rather it is something to ponder. Do we really want to believe certain parts of the higher emotional world is heaven or Shangri-La? (Etc..) By contrast, do we want surgeons to remove our physical brain at some point and keep it alive for replanting it in a less contaminated body? What could go wrong?

onawah

8th April 2022, 22:39

Thanks Wavydome. :bump:
I didn't really intend for this thread to be full of terminology and detailed, scholarly examination of the history of Theosopathy and that which led up to it (though that may be useful info for some), but to be more about how it affects us personally today.
Being more of an intuitive myself and less of an intellectual, and one who is more interested in connecting dots and seeing the big picture, I appreciate your perspective and the balance it has helped bring to this thread.
It's the uniqueness of Theosophy and how it has changed our perspectives on the whole in many ways that most interests me (and most people, I imagine).
What brought it to my attention for the most part was the role that people like Rudolf Steiner and Edgar Cayce played in it, how it inspired them, and how that makes it stand out from all that has gone before.

shaberon

9th April 2022, 09:42

For all my learning, Advaita might be an absolute from of subjectivism. I'm studying this very difficult teaching. We have huge western forms of subjectivism too. Is this correct?

Here is one of my favorite Adwaitees:

q3Z-dOvOf-0

At least in philosophy. In the interview where she says this, her question is:

What is inside us that reincarnates?

as in, she is not looking for the explanation, but, an experience of something that shows her gnosticly.

Adwaita is a type of yoga which includes the following that I have found to be incredibly potent:

Soham Hamsa (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soham_(Sanskrit))

which is probably in all schools, notably:

Adi Shankara's Vakya Vritti subsequent works in the Nath tradition foundational for Hatha yoga.

Matsyendranath's Yogavishaya

The last time I personally had enough peace and quiet to do some yoga was based on Ganapati which is Ganesh.

It is also the school of Sri Yantra.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/8/81/The_Sri_Yantra_in_diagrammatic_form.svg

Since those things are part of the practices in that vein, I would understand hearing someone knows or understands, or has done it. But then for example HPB tells me that the Elohim are equivalent to Dhyani Buddhas. But in printed form the redacted texts have obscured the meaning. On this I have asked several times if the Elohim means anything to anyone or how they do a spiritual practice with it.

No one ever said anything.

It seems actually kind of difficult to find...representatives or adherents? Of things. Like there are five different kinds of Judaism and Islam. I have heard that Sufi is similar to yoga, but, no one is speaking for it.

I strongly agree with the point that was made early on about "intellectual religion", or however you would like to call it. From there, it turns to a question of, what does someone do as spiritual practices? What is this and how does it help you?

It is up to anyone to represent something.

Whatever I am into already has thousands of stuffs from Adwaita or Sakta or Vaisnava and I try to laterally involve these as much as possible. That is one of the main reasons I post here instead of a specifically Buddhist site, since there, about all that happens is "my teacher says x about y", very open-and-shut. Theosophy recommends spiritual yoga, so, how does anyone do this? If they don't then we can comb for ways to make it accessible, but, I cannot really say much about doing anything with, for example, the Elohim, not having the transmission from Mt. Athos, or understanding any original sacred text, etc.

shaberon

9th April 2022, 10:40

more about how it affects us personally today.

We are still in the same boat.

Do you not agree that it teaches the technique of mind control from the pre-Christian era?

That this was about hypnosis which controlled the governments of Europe like an autocrat?

And so "we", in a certain sense, if we were affected, then we learned how to blink out of that mentality. I figure I have. I have barely learned to count to two, but I am not in that headspace. On that account, I could perhaps credit Theosophy with keeping me out of sheer nihilism. Because I knew things were wrong, but I would have just gotten mad and confused. That's just me. Overall, "we" are fighting out our failure to grasp this message in Ukraine. The Pelings are really being Pelings.

As you might imagine, I no longer consider anything metaphysical a mystery. Everything is in this Karma. We are witnessing a time when this leadership excuses its deadly vaccine for a non-plague that it probably designed, while severing half the world due to more or less getting caught at its own dangerous activities, which, it admits to not being truthful about.

Reflecting on these conditions after all the training against them bears a slightly unpleasant taste.

Theosophy does not really give spiritual practices, but, the history of it explains everything. At the moment we can sort of read it and weep if the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse loom large in our experience.

Bo Atkinson

9th April 2022, 20:13

... It's the uniqueness of Theosophy and how it has changed our perspectives on the whole in many ways that most interests me (and most people, I imagine).
What brought it to my attention for the most part was the role that people like Rudolf Steiner and Edgar Cayce played in it, how it inspired them, and how that makes it stand out from all that has gone before.

I loved Cacye's book, early in the 1970s, which widened my perspective on reincarnation, and his health food readings had me going too, to learn about diet. I think he actually helped people with day to day needs, which he could somehow assist with. I focussed on radical books because the obvious failure of leadership and the lack of societal models compelled me to look around, through many alternative sources.

I gathered that Steiner was the highly focussed scholar, and wanted to succeed HPB with all his occult teachings, but I only liked his book called Agriculture, with his exotic concoctions to heal the land. These were encouraging at first but became embarrassing later, after learning that organic gardening was as good as it gets, and is much easier to do than Steiner's biodynamics. My wife and I had moved onto a junkyard property way back then, to clean it up and grow things.

I became disappointed with Steiner's occult books with his tremendous obscurity, while I was more interested in arts, technology and how to build a whole life from scratch. His presentation for sort of transcending the beings beyond death really lost me, (end of life passage). Subsequently, I'm groking that his way enters the mysteriously tricky, emotional world, at the deep end, by trusting nonsensical entities, way more idiotic than modern life already is. I needed to try this house of mirrors for myself, through dream chanting before I could realized how hopeless such empty promises can be.

I never read Theosophy until recently, after hylozoics presented the East-West explanation and much more about the unpublished source. Without www searches in the old days, there was no way to follow through on points of interest. Today I'm streamlining to clear up karma so to speak, sowing and reaping, cause and effect, and go for common sense, combined with consciousness development, attention focusing, based on serious study, to improve the unconscious which we carry around like a mystery bag, around on our back, until we finish our lessons of earth.

At our ending point of this life, I don't want to reach into that mystery bag of the unconscious, and find a useless collections of infatuations, of entertaining stuff that never quits and misguided teachings. Instead, I hope today's studies will come out of the bag intact, to continue guiding consciousness wakefully forming.

shaberon

11th April 2022, 02:55

...to clear up karma so to speak, sowing and reaping, cause and effect, and go for common sense, combined with consciousness development, attention focusing, based on serious study, to improve the unconscious which we carry around like a mystery bag, around on our back, until we finish our lessons of earth.

That is a reasonable synopsis of the purpose of Christianity and Buddhism.

In the case of the former, we will find that which is called the West or Nazism revealing itself with a few basic ideas in the Great Schism (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East%E2%80%93West_Schism):

Lossky argues the difference in East and West is because of the Catholic Church's use of pagan metaphysical philosophy (and scholasticism) rather than actual experience of God called theoria, to validate the theological dogmas of Catholic Christianity.

Eastern Orthodox theologians charge that, in contrast to Eastern Orthodox theology, western theology is based on philosophical discourse which reduces humanity and nature to cold mechanical concepts.

Eastern Orthodox theologians argue that the mind (reason, rationality) is the focus of Western theology, whereas, in Eastern theology, the mind must be put in the heart, so they are united into what is called nous; this unity as heart is the focus of Eastern Orthodox Christianity involving the unceasing Prayer of the heart.

Without contrasting the details of the practices, we can see that largely and by intent, Orthodoxy is closer to the side of Yogacara vs. Madhyamika and other Buddhist sects it rejects for similar reasons. They are giving a very basic principle, which is distributed in a pattern of equality. And on this, the Western way is again opposite:

According to Eastern Orthodox belief, the test of catholicity is adherence to the authority of Scripture and then by the Holy Tradition of the church. It is not defined by adherence to any particular see. It is the position of the Orthodox Church that it has never accepted the pope as de jure leader of the entire church.

The Catholic Church's current official teachings about papal privilege and power that are unacceptable to the Eastern Orthodox churches are the dogma of the pope's infallibility when speaking officially "from the chair of Peter (ex cathedra Petri)"...and the affirmation that the legitimacy and authority of all (Catholic) Christian bishops in the world derive from their union with the Roman see and its bishop, the Supreme Pontiff, the unique Successor of Peter and Vicar of Christ on earth.

And so for example in the nineteenth century, it is again correct there were 1870--papal bull of infallibility, and 1879--suppression of Johannites. And then today we have a major clash of forces of Orthodoxy vs. "others" or "western", which, everyone there is aware of this ongoing thing. But Theosophy digs into this even deeper by having a very harsh review of what happened in terms of people starting to think St. Peter at Rome was particularly important. In other words, it is making a specific anti-western religion narrative as the starting point. This sphere of influence even agrees, by separating and isolating itself such as by The Great Schism and by Ukraine.

Yogacara is a Noumenal Path because it is the same Nous as mentioned above. Theosophy may indifferently regard this as the operative principle of the Greek Mysteries or of Orthodoxy.

What would have been "The Secret Doctrine Volume Three" is framed around exactly this. It turns on a dime when getting to Peter:

St. Paul, The Real Founder of Present Christianity (120-124)
Peter, A Jewish Kabalist, Not an Initiate (124-127)

The ending third of the book is an attempt to present Tson kha pa-type Buddhism, despite also making Yogacara arguments. And then her whole summary of Buddhism is expressed in the final chapter:

Heart Doctrine or Seal (http://www.katinkahesselink.net/blavatsky/articles/v14/mb_011.htm)

which again contains a similar proscription about not all branches of Buddhism clearly supporting it.

Hesychasm (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hesychasm) as the Orthodox practice strongly resembles what we call Pratyahara or withdrawal of the senses, the first part of yoga.

So that is why historically, there is a "sphere" of Russia, Greece, and Buddhism, and outside of it, similar spiritual practices are hard to find. Theosophy is not making a heretic and censorship situation, but it is making some pretty strong statements about its main meaning. Weaknesses of many creeds versus Nous or Heart.

Journeyman

11th April 2022, 10:04

I continue to follow this thread without feeling able to contribute much other than appreciation for the posts! In truth, as someone that's (slowly and painfully) trying to extract himself from the Western Ahrimanic mindset and try to ascertain what exactly 'spirituality' is, let alone some of the concepts expressed here, this fascinating thread is probably way beyond my pay grade.

I would however like to attempt to participate put some questions / reactions forward, on the understanding that my knowledge of Theosophy, Steiner, Buddhism etc is rather thin and mostly obtained at one remove rather than diving in to some of the texts which as already noted above can be a little obtuse* to those without some kind of basic grounding in the concepts discussed.

*(or I'm too thick to grasp it, both possibilities definitely on the table at this point)

I get this idea of theosophy building a bridge between Eastern and Western approaches. I'm just not sure where we go to begin with the Western tradition? To me (non Catholic) the Catholic part of Christianity appears hopelessly compromised almost from the outset. A concoction of Roman civic power which has morphed through the ages to either act as or on behalf of the hidden power structure? When I looked at Revelation and found the Eastern Orthodox had resisted its incorporation in the Bible, that struck a chord with me. It's not Christianity, any more than enthroning a man with infallibility or amassing the wealth of the world and temporal authority on the ancient altars of the Queen of Heaven in Rome. It feels like any kind of bridge built to this would result in the fruit of the poisoned tree? Likewise perhaps one alternative from the Western tradition culminating in Alice Bailey and Lucis Trust linking to United Nations meditation room and the various symbols of NWO thinking, it feels spiritually bankrupt and self serving beneath a veneer of idealism. I'm not sure where the 'good' sound Western spiritual thinking is to be found? That's not to say the Eastern won't have its own issues, perhaps I'm just not as aware of them although I have come across discussion of dark currents of thinking in some of the Tibetean schools of thought?

I guess my question, which could already be answered above but I'm too idiotic to grasp it, is does Theosophy represent a good pathway today for the spiritual novice from a Western background? Or is it very much of its time and one would be better advised looking either direct to the source of Eastern thinking, or direct to the source itself by looking within? The latter was where my own research was leading me, because there appears to be a morass of deception, twisting of sources etc etc in almost every direction I look.

onawah

11th April 2022, 19:16

That "morass of deception" is why I found Zen and Taoism in their purest form to be very appealing.
They push the practicioner directly into experiencing, not thinking.
Once you have a truly revelatory experince, so many questions are answered.

I guess my question, which could already be answered above but I'm too idiotic to grasp it, is does Theosophy represent a good pathway today for the spiritual novice from a Western background? Or is it very much of its time and one would be better advised looking either direct to the source of Eastern thinking, or direct to the source itself by looking within? The latter was where my own research was leading me, because there appears to be a morass of deception, twisting of sources etc etc in almost every direction I look.

Bo Atkinson

11th April 2022, 21:29

shaberon

12th April 2022, 07:28

I guess my question, which could already be answered above but I'm too idiotic to grasp it, is does Theosophy represent a good pathway today for the spiritual novice from a Western background? Or is it very much of its time and one would be better advised looking either direct to the source of Eastern thinking, or direct to the source itself by looking within? The latter was where my own research was leading me, because there appears to be a morass of deception, twisting of sources etc etc in almost every direction I look.

All of these?

HPB states that her inner doctrines are from the direct apostolic descendants of the original Vedic Rishis.

Everything in yoga is based from you discovering within.

Nothing spiritual is new, and so it depends on what it means to consider ourselves Western. I physically am. Recently I came across an article I had not minded before. She is rebutting a Russian critic. It is generally true that the original Theosophical Society and its literature were not widely received in Russia. She says at the end:

Finally, he would understand that the Key to Theosophy does not contain any special teaching, but is simply an attempt to correct some of the rather wild ideas held by the public concerning certain beliefs of the Asiatic mystics, and the Theosophical Society. I will say more: he would have been convinced that not only Christian Fellows continue—in spite of their fellowship—to look upon Christ as a God descended on Earth, but that even Theosophists who are Buddhists, Brahmins, Parsees and Mussulmans look upon him as a great Arhat and Prophet.

This is from several pages where she is defending accusations of Neo-Buddhism (http://www.katinkahesselink.net/blavatsky/articles/v12/y1890_039.htm) where, despite the lack of many Russian warm sentiments, she mostly sides with Orthodoxy:

...if our critic had studied the Theosophical teachings half as well as he has studied Papism and Judaism, he would easily have succeeded in the difficult task of writing about the meaning of our teachings. Then he would probably have abstained from writing about the Key to Theosophy, since he would have understood that this book was not written for Russia––the only country where the pure ideal of Christ is still preserved; and knowing this he would have understood for whose benefit I was quoting the Gospel precept concerning the tree that is known by its fruit The Key has been written by me for countries where such things are possible as the Salvation Army, with its wild street howlings and song themes from the repertoire of operettas, and where the name of the “beautiful Helen” is changed to the name of Him they call the Son of God; for a country where at the present moment there are not less than sixteen incarnations of Christ, from the Reverend Missionary Schweinfurt, to Kennedy, a former thief from a reformatory, and now recognized by the Connecticut sectarians as a Messiah; it was written for pseudo-Christian countries like England and America...

Theosophy invents nothing, but tries to sift inner truth from superstition in every tradition. Also in this article, she gives information which says that most Buddhists are not particularly learned in the Puranas:

I will not dwell on such insignificant trifles as, for instance, the distortion of my name which, though he refers to me as “a very well-known author,” is given by the critic as Blavazky instead of Blavatsky; nor will I emphasize such errors in translation as for instance the rendering of Isis Unveiled as “Isis Without Veil,” even though this shows a lack of knowledge of the English language. I will devote but a word or two to the fact that our critic assures the public, as if in defense of “Mrs. Blavazky,” that she could not have “invented the Tibetan brotherhood or the spiritual order of the Khe-langs” (?!), as the missionary Huc furnishes “positive and reliable information” about them in a book written by him “more than thirty years before the formation of the Theosophical Society.” In answer to this, I will take the liberty to ask our critic where he has read or heard that Mongolian Khe-langs, Lamaist-Buddhists, have ever been referred to as “Mahâtmans” by proud Brâhmanas? Have I not stated in my letters, From the Caves and Jungles of Hindostan, that the one whom we recognize as our chief teacher (and whom Hindus recognize as a Mahâtman) is a Râjput by birth, and therefore belongs to the caste of Kshatriyas or warriors? There are other Râja-Yogins known to us, Brâhmanas and Himâlayan ascetics, mystics of various nations, among whom are some Mongolians, but of course they are not Khe-langs. How could, not only Khe-langs, but even Hutuktus and Hubilkhans (the incarnations of various Buddhas and Bodhisattvas) teach us anything else but Lamaist-Buddhism? This is no place to speak of our teachers; for one reason, because of the only truth expressed by Mr. Solovyov, namely that, though the relations between us and our “hidden inspirers in the distant Orient cover nothing prejudicial,” yet it would be better “if this mysterious relationship remained secret.” Very true, especially as this relationship is apt to incite personal ambition in the West, and give rise to selfish intrigues (even in Russia) among pseudo-Theosophists who have turned into unscrupulously lying and confirmed enemies of the Theosophical Society and especially of me, its “scapegoat,” because of their failure and the refusal of the Mahâtmas to provide them with money for various ventures.

The article also tells us that the Warrior Kings held the most secret or Upanishadic literature, especially Janaka Videha, King of Mithila, father of Sita of the Ramayana.

This is like a typical day, she has to defend from an arrogant "expert" while her own house is full of thieves, there is so much more blame and controversy than actually heeding the main subjects she is getting at.

She was so prolific that the index is over six hundred pages.

Most of it is probably the best way to get acquainted with any subject under the sun.

In the long run, I personally suggest getting into whichever of the practices one can connect to. Because I personally have experienced Orthodoxy, and, at almost every turn, HPB throws in some kind of reference to Pauline or esoteric Christianity, I can say there is something here I have not found elsewhere. It is possible that very minor forms such as Coptic, Thomasene, etc., may convey the same type of power. I am not sure.

The distinction of Elementals and Elementaries (http://www.katinkahesselink.net/blavatsky/articles/v1/y1877_015.htm) distinguishes common Christian theology from Nepalese Buddhism and Kabala:

From the standpoint of certain Buddhist schools, your correspondent may be right. Their philosophy teaches that even our visible universe assumed an objective form as a result of the fancy followed by the volition or the will of the unknown and supreme adept, differing from Christian theology, however, inasmuch as they teach that instead of calling out our universe from nothingness, he had to exercise this will upon pre-existing matter, eternal and indestructible as to invisible substance, though temporary and ever-changing as to forms. Some higher and still more subtle metaphysical schools of Nepal even go so far as to affirm—on very reasonable grounds too—that this pre-existing and self-existent substance or matter (Svabhavat) is itself without any other creator or ruler; when in the state of activity it is Pravritti, a universal creating principle; when latent and passive, they call this force Nivritti. As for something eternal and infinite, for that which had neither beginning nor end, there can be neither past nor future, but everything that was and will be, IS, therefore there never was an action or even thought, however simple, that is not impressed in imperishable records on this substance called by the Buddhists Svabhavat, by the Kabalists astral light. As in a faithful mirror this light reflects every image, and no human imagination could see anything outside that which exists impressed somewhere on the eternal substance. To imagine that a human brain can conceive of anything that was never conceived of before by the “universal brain,” is a fallacy, and a conceited presumption. At best, the former can catch now and then stray glimpses of the “eternal thought” after these have assumed some objective form, either in the world of the invisible or visible universe.

I have not gotten a Kabalistic system to work very much; Buddhism, so to speak, gives back what you put into it.

I have accomplished yoga by what Buddhism calls "the energy of the centers", which I am trying to reform by following the Noumenal Path. That is why I would say that if you get near any Sanskrit Hinduism even if just Om or Soham Hamsa and it starts doing anything, you need a good guide.

None of the Catholics or Jews I have known believed everything, or agreed with very much, of what came from their respective officials, and was supposed to be represented in their spiritual services.

I am willing to say that original Theosophy of Blavatsky and the Mahatmas is reliable, that Orthodox Hesychasm will get you to Heaven, Aryan Yoga will Liberate you from Form altogether, and that Buddhist Yoga will make you a Buddha.

When I look for some of our Buddhist deities in India, I get pages of phone numbers for black magic.

In western territories, things like Orthodoxy and Buddhism are just mission work. If possible, one may as well physically visit whatever is in range, after an initial review. For example you might come to a wing of T'ai Chi, and even that is beneficial. If something is purifying and beneficial, then it can at least be tolerated and examined.

Journeyman

12th April 2022, 10:59

Many thanks all! Much to ponder...

That "morass of deception" is why I found Zen and Taoism in their purest form to be very appealing.
They push the practicioner directly into experiencing, not thinking.
Once you have a truly revelatory experince, so many questions are answered.

Given I'm dragging my trained mind kicking and screaming away from the materialist mindset, some kind of confirmatory experience would be life changing and hopefully would give renewed impetus to continue progress/enquiry. Whereas at present I drift in and out of considering these matters. Meditation etc is not coming easily, surrounded as I am with distraction and the like.

I would answer that as long as a study, any study, supports the emotional drive to keep a serious search going, it will be well energized and yield something sought for. In our time, we are past that earlier stage where you were forced to subscribe to institutional venues, for guidance, and we are now freed to use self-guidance, where we are responsible. When that is ready, the experience will come.

I bought a whole bunch of alternative knowledge books, from spiritual to scientific, from the arts to the ethics, way back in the early 1970s, costing months of pay at my laborer's wage. Settling down on to the land, getting away from the urban and suburban, just near the edge of organic nature, and all kinds of alternative tech was important too. I was a high school grad a few years before that, trying to get free of the draft, (Viet Nam War).

My twenties were too young to orient myself, to avoid the pit falls and even in my sixties I was still diving in head first to see what could be found anywhere. Absolutism was increasingly avoided. Finally I got into meditating on Socrates' idea, of knowing that he knew nothing worth knowing. Finding what really works well inside, and what answers lastingly was wanted.

Balancing all sides of life seemed key, but the counterbalances were always hard to gauge. Internet searching was quite limited in scope until maybe 2010, at least for me. Possibly I searched the wrong words, and definitely the wrong experiences sometimes. But wrong experiences can be very educational. "Dare to be naive", as a great author once said.

The needed scientist in me was on one shoulder and the mystic on the other. So long as the teachings developed something helpful, I held on to that plow. I always dropped away when higher truths seemed to leak in from elsewhere, because I kept verifiable mental records of origins and sequences.

I wish I'd started sooner. I think I spent my twenties repressing any kind of deeper thinking. None of the religion I grew up with made any impact whatsoever, other than encouraging me to dismiss the entire question. A strict materialist outlook was comforting I think. I'd got the merest glimpse of the darkness at the top of the world in my early 20s and I turned away and tried to ignore it and the implications thereof. Think I was happier to think of it as a very well organised mafia and ignore the implications of the signs of a darker theology at work. Ironically as that position became harder to maintain I was forced to look at the entire question of what this world and our place in it really is. I think we've been steered away from those questions and myself, as an avid consumer of the programming for many years, maybe more than most. Now I have to fight the negative assumptions that whatever spiritual sense I have has atrophied through non-use as well as the feeling I tried to articulate above that it's difficult to find any one path that doesn't seem to have been laced with a trap or misdirection.

All of these?

...In western territories, things like Orthodoxy and Buddhism are just mission work. If possible, one may as well physically visit whatever is in range, after an initial review. For example you might come to a wing of T'ai Chi, and even that is beneficial. If something is purifying and beneficial, then it can at least be tolerated and examined.

I'll have to think on some of this post before attempting a coherent reply but on your last point, I do like the idea of something practical. I'm not a 'joiner' particularly although up until the pandemic shut everything down I was doing hatha yoga classes 2 or 3 times a week, but with little to no understanding / spiritual engagement with the forms and the underlying grounding. It just felt like a good way of getting more limber and less alienated from my aging rather stiff body. Maybe restarting that with a bit more focus could help, or a family member has taken up Qigong so that's been something I've been considering also.

Thanks again all. :)

shaberon

13th April 2022, 06:38

I'm not a 'joiner' particularly although up until the pandemic shut everything down I was doing hatha yoga classes 2 or 3 times a week, but with little to no understanding / spiritual engagement with the forms and the underlying grounding. It just felt like a good way of getting more limber and less alienated from my aging rather stiff body. Maybe restarting that with a bit more focus could help, or a family member has taken up Qigong so that's been something I've been considering also.

Surprisingly the first thing identifiable as a Hatha Yoga text is Buddhist.

These days there are many different kinds which may mean different things.

One cannot do Noumenal Yoga without a certain suppleness and pliancy of the material body. We want it to feel noticeably light, as if lifted up. Although not all of the Historical Buddhas spent all their time in Nepal, they were also in neighboring Bihar. One of the mountains there has caves with hot springs that were used as a spa and exercise area by the Buddhas of the Past and their disciples.

And so everyone needs something to help keep them fit.

I consider those things kind of a separate category.

Although Indians are generally taught to reject or ignore Buddhism, when it comes to the subject of Yoga, they paradoxically accept that Buddhist yogins show similar powers as, and are as valid as, Hindus. There are various traditions about who exactly they were, most frequently summarized as Eighty-four Mahasiddhas.

The primary crossroads is in Nath (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nath), where we can usually find about four of these Hindus also becoming Buddhist. In the Buddhist traditions, most of the Siddhas have an identifying trait or feature, and, one of the most distinct of these is Jalandhara Natha.

Relatively modern card:

https://har-assets.s3.amazonaws.com/item-images-resized/2000px/5/2/5/52548506.jpg

1800s Apo Manuscript following Taranatha:

https://har-assets.s3.amazonaws.com/item-images-resized/2000px/6/9/3/69346.jpg

1600s Drukpa Kagyu of Hemis Monastery, Ladakh:

https://har-assets.s3.amazonaws.com/item-images-resized/2000px/8/3/0/83027.jpg

Hemis (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hemis_Monastery) participates in the Mani Rimdu Mask Dance Festival.

Usually those biographies are filled with all kinds of bizarre feats. But Jalandhara is basically just about yoga meditation:

Born and raised as a Brahmin in Turkara City, Jalandhara one day became disgusted with the world he saw around him and renounced his worldly life to meditate in a charnel ground. He entered a state of heightened consciousness and heard the voice of a Dakini coming out of the sky saying he was to learn about absolute truth. He continually called in prayer to the Dakini until eventually, she appeared before him. She gave him the initiation into the practices of the Hevajra Tantra and instructions on Perfection Stage yoga, telling him to meditate on the indivisibility of appearance and emptiness. Jalandhara did these practices for seven years and achieved the ultimate realization, Mahamudra. He spent the rest of his life working selflessly for the good of all beings until he entered the pure realm of Khechari [Vajrayogini] accompanied by three hundred students. (Abhayadatta Tradition, folio 193).

Jalandhara was a few generations before Tilo, the nominal head of the Kagyu lineage. He never said anything like "I am starting the Kagyu school", but, the reason he is the oldest Indian directly named, is because several lineages, Jalandhara and others, converge in him, and it is this convergence which is represented as crossing the mountains and becoming Tibetan in the hands of Marpa the Translator.

Allright. So, for example, Jalandhara achieved a state of altered consciousness that Jung did not. This is evasive to most otherwise would-be yogins. He wrote a few higher tantric commentaries; anything intermediate?

Sri-mahakarunikabhiseka-prakaranopadesa-nama

Mahakarunika is the overall song cycle of Avalokiteshvara and of Tara in Lotus Family. Avalokiteshvara has a standard song played in many recordings; here is a Chinese girl who made a sped-up dance version:

0ahW_co1CQ4

It obviously is not a very meditative version, but, we want sounds that cover all dynamic ranges.

Jalandhara has something else that sounds transitional and semi-tantric:

Humkara-citta-bindu-bhavana-krama-nama

That has to do with the syllable Hum (pronounced "hoom"), Citta or Mind, Bindu or energy point or atom. Buddhism says that the real Citta lives in the Heart. So this must be an alteration of regular brain consciousness. I have never read this text and I doubt I could even find it, but, here he has clearly honed in on the main meditative doctrine to do away with intellectual and ungrounded drifting.

The other thing we may notice is that his Initiation came straight from some Dakini.

So Jalandhara was a rapid summary of yogic power.

This is less of a direct response but is related information:

As this system goes forward, it passes through the hands of someone who is at least of interest to me personally. Ratnakarasanti or Santipa was the eleventh-century bastion of Yogacara, or, particularly, of Asanga's Yogacara. In consequence, he makes quite possibly the smoothest and most elegant Sutra-to-Tantra system, or the most accurate towards Mahayana. Although he is not a total mystery, he has been somewhat suppressed and left out of the lineages. In fact his story in the Eighty-four Mahasiddhas is almost an insult that is not even realistic.

His perhaps heretical teaching was that divinity is immanent and accessible. And yet I saw recently that Ratnakarasanti's Hevajra empowerment is being streamed/recorded for use today. Yet he has rarely been credited or included in any lineages. For instance, the lineage for Marpa or Bowl (https://www.himalayanart.org/items/623) Hevajra according to Himalayan Art:

Vajradhara, Jnana Dakini, Bodhivajra Garbha, Arya Nagarjuna, Aryadeva, Candrakirti, Matangipa, Tailo Prajnabhadra, Naro Jnana Siddhi, Marpa Lotsawa Chokyi Lodro, etc.

This is the same as what Gelug calls its Guhyasamaja lineage. That is why they have nothing unique or special. It is Kagyu Mahamudra and Hevajra. This is where we argue that it is not the same as Sutra Nagarjuna, or, at least is a reincarnation at a much later time.

According to Takpo Tashi Namgyal (https://vdoc.pub/documents/mahamudra-the-quintessence-of-mind-and-meditation-aohehgpcr3m0):

The tradition of the Kagyu mahamudra expounded here derives from the great Indian masters Asanga, KamalaSila, Santipa, and Saraha. The educated reader will be able to discern that this system incorporates elements of the yogacara, madhyamaka, and vajrayana schools.

Santipa has an article on Guru Yoga with several references, including Ratnolka Dharani.

For the Two Armed Sahaja Hevajra according to H. E. Garchen Rinpoche:

This particular empowerment ritual stems from the transmission lineage of the great accomplished master Shantipa, the lineage gurus of the innate Hevajra with consort, according to the transmission lineage of Lord Drikungpa, and his disciples is as follows: Buton Rinchen transmitted the lineage to his heart’s son Rinchen Namgyal then it was transmitted through the scholar, Chandrakirti, the master Yeshe Gyamtso, the venerable Khyenrab Chojin, Lama Rinchen Gyelpo, the mahasiddha Pema Garwang...

So wherever it came from, they say Ratnakarasanti's Hevajra entered Drikung Kagyu.

Jigten Sumgon the first Drikungpa is mostly associated with Phagmo Dru:

The glorious Phagmodrupa had five hundred disciples who possessed the white umbrella; but, as he said again and again, his successor would be an Upasaka who has attained the tenth level of a Bodhisattva...[this being Jigten Sumgon, who] At the time of the Buddha Shakyamuni, he appeared as the stainless Licchavi, who was inseparable from the Buddha himself. Later, he was born as the Acharya Nagarjuna...From Lama Lhopa Dorje Nyingpo, he received the teachings of Guhyasamaja and others.

Phagmo Dru [1110-1170], who influenced the beginning of Drikung, was one of the three main disciples of Gampopa.

Gampo was transmitting Marpa Kagyu. So this implies that Ratnakarasanti's Hevajra passed through Marpa into the Drikung.

Ngok Jangchub Pal gave the empowerment of Hevajra Yab-Yum to the Drikung Kagyupas.

Ngok was the main Hevajra custodian from Marpa, so there is a tantric system of Marpa and Ngok (https://dakinitranslations.com/2021/07/09/kagyu-tantra-marpa-and-ngog-the-seven-ngog-mandalas-thirteen-tantras-of-marpa-and-kongtruls-kagyu-ngag-dzo/):

The seven maṇḍalas of Ngok consists of:

1) the nine-deity maṇḍala of Hevajra (dgyes rdor lha dgu);

2) the fifteen-deity maṇḍala of his consort Nairātmyā (bdag med ma lha mo bco lnga);

3) the forty-nine-deity maṇḍala of Vajrapañjara (rdo rjegur rigs bsdus lha zhe dgu);

4) the seventy-seven-deity maṇḍala of Yogāmbara, the male form of Catuṣpīṭha (gdan bzhi’am rnal ’byor nam mkha’lha mang);

5) the thirteen-deity maṇḍala of Jñāneśvarī, Jñānaḍākinī, the female form of Catuṣpīṭha (ye shes dbang phyug ma lha bcu gsum);

6) the five-deity maṇḍala of Mahāmāyā (sgyu ma chen mo lha lnga);

7) the fifty-three-deity maṇḍala of Nāmasaṃgīti of the gSang ldan Tradition (’jamdpal mtshan brjod gsang ldan lugs).

According to Snow Lion (https://www.shambhala.com/snowlion_articles/his-holiness-drikung-kyabgon-chetsang-to-give-teachings-and-empowerment/):

Jamgon Kongtrul also included other important Marpa Tantric teachings such as the Chakrasamvara, Vajravarahi, Guhyasamaja, Buddhakapala, and Vajrabhairava mandalas into the Kagyu Ngak Dzod.

According to John Powers (https://archive.org/stream/intrototibetanbuddhismjohnpowers/Intro%20to%20Tibetan%20Buddhism%20-%20John%20Powers_djvu.txt), Ratnakarasanti's Hevajra also appears to have entered Sakya:

Gonchok Gyelpo was a disciple of the translator Drokmi
(ca. 993-1077), who had traveled to Nepal and India, where he studied
Sanskrit with Santipa, one of the great masters of his day and author of a
commentary on the Hevajra Tantra. Drokmi brought the text to Tibet and
translated it, and it later became the basic text of Sakya tantric practice.

Santipa also has a Lamdre lineage in Sakya. Ngor is a monastery developed through Sakya.

Nine deity two armed Hevajra, 1300s Ngor from the tradition of Kanha:

https://har-assets.s3.amazonaws.com/item-images-resized/2000px/6/5/1/65123.jpg

That is the same as shown on the transmission page (https://dakinitranslations.com/2021/11/04/the-eight-main-lineages-of-hevajra-and-innate-hevajra-of-shantipa-lineages-texts-and-2021-teaching-and-empowerment-by-8th-garchen-rinpoche/), which has several Sahaja Hevajras.

It also has this Santipa or Ratnakarasanti:

https://dakinitranslations.files.wordpress.com/2021/11/220px-shantipa.jpg

We might find him in a few other secluded places.

Marpa, the normative channel of Kagyu, usually has Mila and Gampo under/after him. Sometimes, Tilo and Naro are added above/before him.

Modern Drukpa Kagyu with these:

https://har-assets.s3.amazonaws.com/item-images-resized/2000px/8/9/9/89912.jpg

He is over Weapon Hevajra (from Samputa Tantra), and appears to have the addition of Nagarjuna and Santipa above him.

1700s Kagyu, perhaps intending Naro, Tilo, and Santipa above:

https://har-assets.s3.amazonaws.com/item-images-resized/2000px/6/0/6/60632.jpg

1500s Marpa and Mila with multiple Hevajras. In the lower left are Gampo and H. H. 3rd Karmapa Rangjung Dorje. Buddha is in the middle of the second tier, which includes Nagarjuna, Asanga, etc., although I cannot distinguish them:

https://har-assets.s3.amazonaws.com/item-images-resized/2000px/5/6/2/562.jpg

Probably the oldest Marpa, ca. 11th-13th century. He is between some very bizarre Makara creatures I have never seen like this. Over him appears to be Cinnamasta, i. e., the three figures together:

https://har-assets.s3.amazonaws.com/item-images-resized/2000px/5/8/3/58356.jpg

Back in the harsh mode of the world around us, today The Saker makes more pro-Orthodox statements and refers to the lack of spiritual practices in the west, where he lives:

...until the USA is finally denazified and disarmed too. But until all of Zone A is absorbed and re-civilized by Zone B, that danger will threaten every human being on the planet...

To the demons in Washington DC we need to oppose our saints, both living and long dead.

Our most formidable weapon is not a nuke or any “Tsar-Bomba” but our modest prayer ropes.

Let’s use that most formidable weapon of ours which only we have (there is no real hesychasm in the West, and there has not been for many centuries now)...