Is War Ever Necessary or Justified?

[rgray222]

I have spent a great deal of my adult life considering the question....... is war ever justified? I have been all over the map coming up with an answer. Of course, these are my thoughts on war, you may arrive at a completely different answer. Originally I thought war might be justifiable under some circumstances. The just war theory (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Just_war_theory) claims that there is a doctrine that morally justifies war through a series of criteria broken into two parts, the right to go to war and the right to conduct war. The just war theory presupposes the belief that war, while it is terrible but less so with the right conduct, is not always the worst option.

Each year I pulled back from my hawkish position ever so slightly to the point of believing war is never justified under any circumstances. Eventually, I began to see that war was being justified exactly the same way slavery was justified in the 17th and 18th centuries. I also see that the learning/evolution of mankind had reached a point where slavery had to be criminalized, outlawed and vanquished from society, ironically it took the bloodiest conflict in American history to remove slavery from society.

I now believe that war is nothing more than murder and property destruction on a grand scale, even when a country(s) declares war and it is somehow sanctioned by uninvolved countries and society at large it is still murder. He who fires the first shot should suffer severe economic penalties, sanctions and loss of standing. There must be consequences.

Here are a few questions and things to think about.

Many people believe that the world cannot exist without war, just as death is a meaningless concept without life. This same school of thought believes that peace will never exist without war. Is that true, is war always going to be justified in some manner?

Will we have to go through a WWIII nuclear holocaust with loss of life in the billions before we learn/evolve enough to never have another war? During slavery, people were not only willing to justify slavery but they were also willing to die for slavery. in today's world, that seems incomprehensible but we are not living in those times. Will we ever live in a world where those that call for war are ostracized just like it would be if people called out for slavery today.

Is war so entrenched in the human psyche that it will be impossible to end?

I would love to hear your thoughts.

[onawah]

How could it be necessary or justified?
Only if you view it as an inevitable stage in human evolution.
From any other perspective, it's simply barbaric.

[rgray222]

How could it be necessary or justified?
Only if you view it as an inevitable stage in human evolution.
From any other perspective, it's simply barbaric.

There is a lot to unpack and think about. What should be done when a world leader starts committing genocide against his own people? Should we just let ethnic cleansing happen or should the countries of the world unite and send in troops to prevent further loss of life and destruction of property? There are many real-life scenarios where war appears to be justified.

[Chester]

Necessary? Yes... there have been multiple instances it was necessary. When a civilization is threatened where "to wage war" or be subjugated are the only options, then war may become necessary... at least to the threatened civilization.

Justified?

That, for me, is unanswerable except by the sovereign (individual or body) that has the power to go to war and makes the decision to do so. And they will be held responsible for it.

Strife is the fundamental driver of evolution. Creativity thrives the most during strife. Without it, complacency sets in and eventually entropy and that is the end of "the story." With consciousness as the fundamental substance, "story" makes meaning out of life. Story without strife never lasts long... it becomes too boring, too stagnant.

The trouble with the current Earth story is that few have any clue of the actual, full story and the actual history that got us here. Out of the few I have found open minded enough to consider some (much less most) of the true history push back because their own versions are too entrenched into their very being. Their whole personalty is wrapped in in their mistaken versions that have to be true. They are too dug in with everyone they know in relation to what they believe in regard to the true history and the true actors involved in the current Earth dramas.

Even deeper entrenched are their metaphysics and spiritual beliefs. Just look at the sharp folks on this forum that then go at the throats of others when their spiritual beliefs are challenged or their metaphysical world views are challenged. It is almost impossible to have an intellectual discussion or a civil debate about these matters, again... even on this forum.

And I find this very disheartening.

But back to the thread question - Yes, war is (sometimes) necessary. And the one's who wage it have obviously justified it and are responsible for the outcomes.

[Chester]

How could it be necessary or justified?
Only if you view it as an inevitable stage in human evolution.
From any other perspective, it's simply barbaric.

There is a lot to unpack and think about. What should be done when a world leader starts committing genocide against his own people? Should we just let ethnic cleansing happen or should the countries of the world unite and send in troops to prevent further loss of life and destruction of property? There are many real-life scenarios where war appears to be justified.

This is why, one day, there will be a single global government. This will either happen because the nations of the world recognize it is a must or a single civilization becomes the final global hegemon. But it will happen unless we destroy ourselves first or we are taken out.

[onawah]

There seems to be a contradiction in your reasonsing here.


Strife is the fundamental driver of evolution. Creativity thrives the most during strife. Without it, complacency sets in and eventually entropy and that is the end of "the story." With consciousness as the fundamental substance, "story" makes meaning out of life. Story without strife never lasts long... it becomes too boring, too stagnant.
Even deeper entrenched are their metaphysics and spiritual beliefs. Just look at the sharp folks on this forum that then go at the throats of others when their spiritual beliefs are challenged or their metaphysical world views are challenged. It is almost impossible to have an intellectual discussion or a civil debate about these matters, again... even on this forum.
And I find this very disheartening.

[TargeT]

The military has an interesting "roundabout" way of answering this.. well I think most "force" based groups do...

we have ROE (rules of engagement), the basis of which usually boils down to matching the situation with the appropriate response. Police show up to protests with (questionable definition currently IMO) "less than lethal rounds" because of the (unti a few years ago) general lack of lethal force present at those gatherings...

Tribalism has had versions of this, mostly based on resources; the less you have (and I mean this in a long term societal sense) the more violently you react to intruders (unknown entities etc..); and tribalism is a base survival instinct. Most humans (heavily biased to higher testosterone levels) have some sort of contention or contest based entertainment due to this drive being so historically important. It's current validity is an interesting debate, but the base drive is well proven.

so, your question poses an interesting tangent... have we evolved exponentially faster than the "base programming" that has kept us alive has? ( I think, yes. but then; with great power.....)

[Tyy1907]

Fascinating insights in this thread.

In some ways we've improved. Gladiators fighting tigers and each other has turned into the less brutal sports like football and the like.

Slavery has rightfully been outlawed.

However as Rgray puts it, war and the threats of war have stuck around. Dangling the carrot of survival, get that country before they get us.

It just dawned on me that the human race is in that gladiator arena, one country pitted against another. Slavery can take many forms.

[Bluegreen]

No. . . .

[Delight]

No. . . .

I say NONONO. However the question assumes that WAR will always be and that IMO is the crux. IMO I am going to victorious "War NO MORE" itself. I am that powerful and so are you. That is the place to begin.

[Spiral]

There are two types of going to war, the one most people think of is the response to this,
He who fires the first shot should suffer severe economic penalties, sanctions and loss of standing. There must be consequences.

Often the only response to that is war, like Churchill declared on Nazi Germany when they invaded Poland, and in current times Putin doing the Special Military Operation in the Ukraine, this is what most people would call "justified" because the alternative is usually death and or slavery.

It used to be just about which guy got to be King, but not anymore.

The other type is where the media fills peoples heads with lies and there is usually an accompanying "false flag" attack (ie the State kills it's own citizens & blames an outside power), which then becomes the pretext for a war, the real objectives of which are hidden behind the MSM lies previously mentioned. The USA, the UK & NATO are experts at this & it needs to stop, the rest of the world is very much wise to this BS & it's going to be our undoing.

[onawah]

Slavery may have been outlawed, but that doesn't mean it doesn't still exist.
People are being kidnapped and tricked and sold into slavery all over the world, including Western nations.
And given how many more people there are in the world now, there may be even more victims of slavery now than ever before.


Fascinating insights in this thread.

In some ways we've improved. Gladiators fighting tigers and each other has turned into the less brutal sports like football and the like.

Slavery has rightfully been outlawed.

However as Rgray puts it, war and the threats of war have stuck around. Dangling the carrot of survival, get that country before they get us.

It just dawned on me that the human race is in that gladiator arena, one country pitted against another. Slavery can take many forms.




There is a lot to unpack and think about. What should be done when a world leader starts committing genocide against his own people? Should we just let ethnic cleansing happen or should the countries of the world unite and send in troops to prevent further loss of life and destruction of property? There are many real-life scenarios where war appears to be justified.

Something should be done, but we need to find better solutions than war.

[Bill Ryan]

Thanks for the excellent thread. :thumbsup:

I'm only going to offer an analogy, because it might be helpful in thinking about this.

We almost always consider war as war between nations. But the exact parallel would be a war with your neighbor.

He keeps stealing your chickens, or moves his fence posts over the border into your own property to steal a little of the land you have available in your garden. Or maybe (as in the Trojan War!) he has an affair with your wife.

As a citizen, you should have legal recourse. And in a fair and just society, that would, or should, work. But in all of known human history, that's a very recent innovation.

We might assume that 40,000 years ago, if you were a Cro-Magnon, and a Neanderthal stole what you considered to be your property, you might get together a posse of your friends and family and go steal it back, beating him up in the process and maybe stealing some of his property in revenge. That's how things worked for eons.

Now, we have police and law courts — imperfect though they may be. But it's at least a theoretically good idea. Ask any Ancient Roman or Greek.

So the real problem on a global nation-state level is that there's no reliable, workable and functioning equivalent to address serious international conflicts. (I stress "reliable, workable and functioning".)

If there were, then no nation-state wars should be necessary. In a future (and ideal!) Star Trek world, we might imagine that all this had been ironed out and so war between fellow-humans had become a relic of the past.

[Delight]

I really really really wonder:

What if there IS a coming bifurcation as us woowoo people expect (though people look at it from POV they have). IMO there are a few irreconcilable differences between peace and war at every level from self to family to kin to friend to community bigger and bigger to the whole world. IMO.

IMO war is akin to defense (which manifest often as no SOURCE contact) to fear (and NEED for protection) to projection (off loading one's cognitive dissonance), to power OVER, to victory over and domination. THEN the WAR to protect the dominion........ad nauseum

Contrast living OPEN to the energy of the Source, forgiving self and others with self reflecting, to power within and gathering wisdom, to victory WITH all beings and live and let live.

Why would anyone choose what I repudiate? The INVERSION in it means one is always paranoid, hungry for connection and dependent on external power.

I just do not understand WAR and all its cousins. That is why there WILL be a bifurcation. There will be nothing except perhaps a distant memory of the INVERSION of the truth of US.

When we look at the Indigenous North American that had a culture I could live in, there was a myth that there would be a return of the Rainbow Tribe. This is all who share the common PEACE which precedes all that we will craft in culture. IMO but I absolutely KNOW that right now, our commitment to the IDEAL we LOVE will carry us there. That means that those who love WAR will have it. We will part company.

[Sunny-side-up]

How could it be necessary or justified?
Only if you view it as an inevitable stage in human evolution.
From any other perspective, it's simply barbaric.

True, true but:

From any other perspective, it's simply BUSSNES and childish.

[xidaijena]

Is war so entrenched in the human psyche that it will be impossible to end?

Well, there are people, there will be war. Unless, they are all kind people who have the same faith and share the same frequency and resonance with each other. That would be no called as Earth but Paradise or Heaven as Jesus Christ said.

So, good wish is that we are all one. But the reality is we can be only kind to each other in 1000 years which is without marriage and family.
But you can also know that 80% people or even 90% people can't accept that value of no marriage or family.

Just wait and see what will happen in the coming future soon. I already saw many young people choose not to marriage now!

[Vangelo]

For me, this question boils down to sovereignty. I am willing to defend my sovereignty from anyone who attempts to take it from me. Hence, I am in a justified war against that person or nation.

I don't think anyone has the right to take away anyone else's sovereignty and I believe the vast majority, if not all wars, are waged specifically to take someone else's sovereignty.

Taking this to the question of mask mandates, vaccines, etc... the argument justifying those actions are, you must surrender your sovereignty and take the vax, etc. to protect your neighbor. For those of you who don't believe war is justifiable, you are agreeing to comply and surrender that bit of your sovereignty.

[ExomatrixTV]

Imagine one side says & upholds: "war is never justified" (which sounds perfectly reasonable & noble) ... Lets use Australia 🇦🇺 as an hypothetical example ... it can happen that Australia 🇦🇺 can not pay the huge massive debts to China anymore ... China Deploys mass Force of Weapons (https://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?118815-Analyst-warns-China-ready-to-invade-PNG-Australia-then-the-U.S.) in Australia causing thousands to die ... and NOBODY does anything about it because they assume "war is never justified" ...


All sounds nice but when you face another country using big weaponry ... you may think again!

Am against all forms of wars no matter who or what ... but: the right to defend yourself stays above anything else ... very similar to 2nd Amendment of the US Constitution (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution)

For the record Australia 🇦🇺 has no means to defends itself against China if it invades thier country ... Australia will lose big time ... Because Australia is part of Nato >>>"Article 5 (https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/topics_110496.htm)" ensures that all Nato countries will help defend Australia! <<< this is well known to China!


When profiteering of wars were to be made illegal how would the world look like?

cheers,
John 🦜🦋🌳

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Obama Sends Destroyer to Chinese Islands, China Vows Military Response (https://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?86336-Obama-Sends-Destroyer-to-Chinese-Islands-China-Vows-Military-Response&highlight=China)
Massive debt for equity swap inside China (https://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?90860-Massive-debt-for-equity-swap-inside-China&highlight=China)
New world order/ financial system (Australia's 🇦🇺 sell-out to China) (https://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?90077-New-world-order-financial-system--Australia-s-sell-out-to-China-&highlight=China) https://projectavalon.net/forum4/images/smilies/confused.png
USA will "... go on the defensive ... in ways that China may not like" (https://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?90077-New-world-order-financial-system--Australia-s-sell-out-to-China-&highlight=China)
Wall Street Lies, Tax Insanity, & the Truth About China (https://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?88392-Wall-Street-Lies-Tax-Insanity-the-Truth-About-China&highlight=China)
The new “OBEDIENCE TO GOVERNMENT” system from CHINA (https://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?88176-The-new---OBEDIENCE-TO-GOVERNMENT---system-from-CHINA&highlight=China)
IS the US in a economic cold war with China? (https://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?88049-IS-the-US-in-a-economic-cold-war-with-China&highlight=China)
Sesame Credit - Mandatory by 2020 (in China) (https://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?87606-Sesame-Credit-Mandatory-by-2020--in-China-&highlight=China)
Company Selling ‘Bottled Air’ Sells Out in 4 Days as China’s Smog Crisis Deepens (https://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?87593-Company-Selling---Bottled-Air---Sells-Out-in-4-Days-as-China--s-Smog-Crisis-Deepens&highlight=China)
China’s Renminbi Is Approved as a Main World Currency (https://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?87169-China--s-Renminbi-Is-Approved-as-a-Main-World-Currency&highlight=China)
China develops new aircraft cloaking material (https://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?86823-China-develops-new-aircraft-cloaking-material&highlight=China)
China Building MASSIVE Particle Accelerator Twice The Size Of Large Hadron Collider (https://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?86451-China-Building-MASSIVE-Particle-Accelerator-Twice-The-Size-Of-Large-Hadron-Collider&highlight=China)
Tomb Tells Tale of Family Executed by China's 1st Female Emperor (https://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?86515-Tomb-Tells-Tale-of-Family-Executed-by-China-s-1st-Female-Emperor&highlight=China)
First Gene-Edited Dogs Reported in China (https://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?86515-Tomb-Tells-Tale-of-Family-Executed-by-China-s-1st-Female-Emperor&highlight=China)
China's covert war with America heats up (https://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?85022-China-s-covert-war-with-America-heats-up&highlight=China)3rd Tactical Nuke let off in China. (https://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?84929-3rd-Tactical-Nuke-let-off-in-China.&highlight=China)
Deal With the Devil: How the Global Elite Re-colonized China (https://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?84876-Deal-With-the-Devil-How-the-Global-Elite-Re-colonized-China&highlight=China)
China Pushes to Rewrite Rules of Global Internet (https://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?84236-China-Pushes-to-Rewrite-Rules-of-Global-Internet&highlight=China)
China gold reserve figures (https://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?83759-China-gold-reserve-figures&highlight=China)
It's A Go! China ratifies BRICS Bank (https://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?83287-It-s-A-Go--China-ratifies-BRICS-Bank&highlight=China)
Did China just build a Stargate? (https://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?82023-Did-China-just-build-a-Stargate&highlight=China)
CHINA: THE KEY TO THE NEW WORLD ORDER -- James Corbett (https://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?82023-Did-China-just-build-a-Stargate&highlight=China)
Was Your Chicken Nugget Made In China? It'll Soon Be Hard To Know (https://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?80445-Was-Your-Chicken-Nugget-Made-In-China-It-ll-Soon-Be-Hard-To-Know&highlight=China)
The Anglo-Saxon Mission (China) (https://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?80230-The-Anglo-Saxon-Mission--China-&highlight=China)
Expert Claims China Plans To Replace U.S. As Superpower By 2049? (https://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?79852-Expert-Claims-China-Plans-To-Replace-U.S.-As-Superpower-By-2049&highlight=China)
Greece threatens tilt to Russia and China unless Europe yields (https://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?79801-Greece-threatens-tilt-to-Russia-and-China-unless-Europe-yields-Telegraph--UK-&highlight=China)
Someone in China warned of a AirAisa disaster 13 days before QZ8501 disappeared (https://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?78492-Someone-in-China-warned-of-a-AirAisa-disaster-13-days-before-QZ8501-disappeared&highlight=China)
China and the New World Order (https://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?76873-China-and-the-new-world-order&highlight=China)
'Putin's Revenge': Russia And China Try To End The Dominance Of The Dollar (https://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?76875-Putin-s-Revenge-Russia-And-China-Try-To-End-The-Dominance-Of-The-Dollar&highlight=China)
China puts a new nail in dollar coffin as it begins direct trade with Singapore (https://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?76467-China-puts-a-new-nail-in-dollar-coffin-as-it-begins-direct-trade-with-Singapore&highlight=China)
China launches World Bank rival in Asia (https://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?76346-China-launches-World-Bank-rival-in-Asia&highlight=China)
China Just Overtook The US As The World's Largest Economy (https://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?75763-China-Just-Overtook-The-US-As-The-World-s-Largest-Economy&highlight=China)
Don't Eat the Doggie Treats from China ! (https://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?71538-Don-t-Eat-the-Doggie-Treats-from-China--&highlight=China)
Russia and China announce decoupling trade from Dollar (https://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?70425-Russia-and-China-announce-decoupling-trade-from-Dollar&highlight=China)
War Secretly Declared On China By Executive Order? (https://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?69284-War-Secretly-Declared-On-China-By-Executive-Order&highlight=China)
Ecuador and China say YES to new OIL/Chemical refinery in Manabi (https://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?68558-Ecuador-and-China-say-YES-to-new-OIL-Chemical-refinery-in-Manabi&highlight=China)
How China is Beating America in Technology (https://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?68273-How-China-is-Beating-America-in-Technology-Education&highlight=China)
People's Bank of China decides Bitcoin isn't "nothing" (https://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?66564-People-s-Bank-of-China-decides-Bitcoin-isn-t-nothing&highlight=China)
US in economic collapse as China, Russia ‘moving away from using dollar’... VT article (https://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?66333-US-in-economic-collapse-as-China-Russia---moving-away-from-using-dollar--...-VT-article&highlight=China)
US - China Tension......China plan to quit dollar infuriates US: Analyst (https://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?66094-US-China-Tension......China-plan-to-quit-dollar-infuriates-US-Analyst&highlight=China)
Please give us your kind advice: The Real Battle Between Civilization and Barbarism in China (https://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?65196-Please-give-us-your-kind-advice-The-Real-Battle-Between-Civilization-and-Barbarism-in-China&highlight=China)
Interviews Before Execution via China TV (https://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?65045-Interviews-Before-Execution-via-China-TV&highlight=China)
China calls for NWO (https://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?64385-China-calls-for-NWO&highlight=China)
Founder of Scotland's Samye Ling Tibetan Monastery, killed in China (https://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?64277-Founder-of-Scotland-s-Samye-Ling-Tibetan-Monastery-killed-in-China&highlight=China)
Russia, China & Iran sending 90,000 troops to Syria? (Can anyone confirm?) (https://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?61069-Russia-China-Iran-sending-90-000-troops-to-Syria--Can-anyone-confirm--&highlight=China)
China invades Bhutan ? (https://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?60634-China-invades-Bhutan&highlight=China)
China And Russia Conduct ‘Surprise’ Military Exercises (https://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?57537-China-And-Russia-Conduct---Surprise---Military-Exercises&highlight=China)
Cyber Arms Race: US, China in full-scale web war? (https://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?56274-Cyber-Arms-Race-US-China-in-full-scale-web-war&highlight=China)
Does China Plan To Establish “China Cities” And “Special Economic Zones” All Over America? (https://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?54683-Does-China-Plan-To-Establish---China-Cities---And---Special-Economic-Zones---All-Over-America&highlight=China)
China: so corrupt even the police are protesting (https://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?53417-China-so-corrupt-even-the-police-are-protesting&highlight=China)
The Canada-China trade agreement and complete lack of Media coverage. (https://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?51147-The-Canada-China-trade-agreement-and-complete-lack-of-Media-coverage.&highlight=China)
Goodbye World..! Corrupt 'Australian 🇦🇺 Govt' Sells the 'FARM' to China..! (https://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?49297-Goodbye-World..--Corrupt-Australian-Govt-Sells-the-FARM-to-China..-&highlight=China) https://projectavalon.net/forum4/images/smilies/confused.png
Bitter Harvest: China's Organ 'Donation' Nightmare (https://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?48845-Bitter-Harvest-China-s-Organ-Donation-Nightmare&highlight=China)
'US created the monster of China' (https://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?48176-US-created-the-monster-of-China&highlight=China)
Team USA Made in China (https://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?47387-Team-USA-Made-in-China&highlight=China)
China's first Communist leader and Obamas similarities--Hawaii birth certificate (https://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?46470-China-s-first-Communist-leader-and-Obamas-similarities-Hawaii-birth-certificate&highlight=China)
I don't know what to say but things just get worse here in China (https://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?43572-I-don-t-know-what-to-say-but-things-just-get-worse-here-in-China&highlight=China)
Fed clears China's first US bank takeover (https://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?44964-Fed-clears-China-s-first-US-bank-takeover--May-10-2012-&highlight=China)
16 Websites shut down in China for spreading Coup Rumours..! (https://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?43166-16-Websites-shut-down-in-China-for-spreading-Coup-Rumours..-&highlight=China)
China Hiding 3,000 Underground Nuclear Warheads (https://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?39713-China-Hiding-3-000-Underground-Nuclear-Warheads&highlight=China)
Patriot missiles siezed in Finnish port....On way to China.... (https://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?37505-Patriot-missiles-siezed-in-Finnish-port....On-way-to-China....&highlight=China)
China's Cards are About to be Played (https://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?37499-China-s-Cards-are-About-to-be-Played&highlight=China)
If China Attacks America (JUST IMAGINE) (https://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?37200-If-China-Attacks-America--JUST-IMAGINE-&highlight=China)
Inside China's Slave Labour Toy Factories (https://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?36266-Santa-s-Workshop-Inside-China-s-Slave-Labour-Toy-Factories&highlight=China)
CHINA..!..Wins World War 3...( it fits perfectly and joins 'all' the dots ) (https://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?36017-CHINA..-..Wins-World-War-3...--it-fits-perfectly-and-joins-all-the-dots--&highlight=China)
China Says Either WW3 or New World Order..! (https://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?36017-CHINA..-..Wins-World-War-3...--it-fits-perfectly-and-joins-all-the-dots--&highlight=China)
The implementation of population control programs in China (https://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?34117-The-implementation-of-population-control-programs-in-China&highlight=China)
What Does China Want From Euro Bailout Deal (https://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?33956-What-Does-China-Want-From-Euro-Bailout-Deal&highlight=China)
World shocked as hit-run toddler ignored by 18 passers-by in China..! (https://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?32763-World-shocked-as-hit-run-toddler-ignored-by-18-passers-by-in-China..-&highlight=China)
Australian 🇦🇺 'Reserve Bank' Office in China to 'Beef Up' Intelligence (ATTACK)..! (https://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?31569-Australian-Reserve-Bank-Office-in-China-to-Beef-Up-Intelligence--ATTACK-..-&highlight=China) https://projectavalon.net/forum4/images/smilies/confused.png
Wave of "RIOTS" over China Land Grabs..! Chinese People 'Not Immune' to NWO..! (https://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?31178-Wave-of-RIOTS-over-China-Land-Grabs..--Chinese-People-Not-Immune-to-NWO..-&highlight=China)
China's Influence On The US Economy. Ready to pull the plug? (https://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?31081-China-s-Influence-On-The-US-Economy.-Ready-to-pull-the-plug&highlight=China)
Henry Kissinger on CHINA..! (https://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?30702-Henry-Kissinger-on-CHINA..-&highlight=China)
Riots Spread to China (https://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?28009-Riots-Spread-to-China&highlight=China)
China’s New Lucrative Business: Dead Babies Turn into Stamina Booster Pills (https://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?27444-China--s-New-Lucrative-Business-Dead-Babies-Turn-into-Stamina-Booster-Pills&highlight=China)
China to boost Russian military ties (https://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?27232-China-to-boost-Russian-military-ties&highlight=China)
Report: China building electromagnetic pulse weapons for use against U.S. carriers (https://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?25970-Report-China-building-electromagnetic-pulse-weapons-for-use-against-U.S.-carriers&highlight=China)
US Conoco Phillips' China Oil Spill Six Times Size of Singapore (https://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?25438-US-Conoco-Phillips-China-Oil-Spill-Six-Times-Size-of-Singapore&highlight=China)
Who thinks China is not in the Middle East and Africa as America is? (https://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?23040-Who-thinks-China-is-not-in-the-Middle-East-and-Africa-as-America-is&highlight=China)
Israel to up military ties with China (https://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?22981-Israel-to-up-military-ties-with-China&highlight=China)
Angry Protests Erupt Throughout China..! (https://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?22944-Angry-Protests-Erupt-Throughout-China..-&highlight=China)
Military Buildup on India/China Border (https://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?22511-Military-Buildup-on-India-China-Border&highlight=China)
Pakistan and China to Strengthen Military Ties (https://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?21141-Pakistan-and-China-to-Strengthen-Military-Ties&highlight=China)
China accuses EU of political games on trade (https://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?21141-Pakistan-and-China-to-Strengthen-Military-Ties&highlight=China)
China Decides to Ban Time Traveling (https://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?18359-China-Decides-to-Ban-Time-Traveling&highlight=China)
Australia 🇦🇺 leases out mineral-rich land as China's hunger for resources grows (https://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?18359-China-Decides-to-Ban-Time-Traveling&highlight=China) https://projectavalon.net/forum4/images/smilies/confused.png
Robot restaurant opens in China (https://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?9789-Robot-restaurant-opens-in-China&highlight=China)
China, Russia quit US dollar.... (https://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?8447-China-Russia-quit-US-dollar....&highlight=China)
Undetected China Sub Startles US Navy! (https://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?7950-Undetected-China-Sub-Startles-US-Navy-&highlight=China)
Iran opens airspace to China warplanes (https://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?6544-Iran-opens-airspace-to-China-warplanes&highlight=China)
China and the New World Order (https://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?5345-China-and-the-New-World-Order&highlight=China)
China must reform or die? (https://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?4866-China-must-reform-or-die&highlight=China)
What the hell is going on in China (https://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?2059-What-the-hell-is-going-on-in-China&highlight=China)
Oil spill shuts China's biggest port ... (https://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?4115-Oil-spill-shuts-China-s-biggest-port-...&highlight=China)
China: cracks in the Three Gorges Dam, 300,000+ people affected (https://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?4115-Oil-spill-shuts-China-s-biggest-port-...&highlight=China)



we should be on high alert & aware of corrupt politicians plus China's connections to WEF (https://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?118748-Top-10-Creepiest-Most-Dystopian-Things-Pushed-By-The-World-Economic-Forum) & WHO (https://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?118331-Global-WHO-Treaty-for-Pandemics-with-Digital-ID-and-Digital-Currency)!

[Chester]

There seems to be a contradiction in your reasonsing here.


Strife is the fundamental driver of evolution. Creativity thrives the most during strife. Without it, complacency sets in and eventually entropy and that is the end of "the story." With consciousness as the fundamental substance, "story" makes meaning out of life. Story without strife never lasts long... it becomes too boring, too stagnant.
Even deeper entrenched are their metaphysics and spiritual beliefs. Just look at the sharp folks on this forum that then go at the throats of others when their spiritual beliefs are challenged or their metaphysical world views are challenged. It is almost impossible to have an intellectual discussion or a civil debate about these matters, again... even on this forum.
And I find this very disheartening.


Point it out. I'm open, but you need to point it out.

[Chester]

If there were, then no nation-state wars should be necessary. In a future (and ideal!) Star Trek world, we might imagine that all this had been ironed out and so war between fellow-humans had become a relic of the past.

I have the exact same thought and use the exact same "next level" analogy of "a future Star Trek world" as the carrot.

[ExomatrixTV]

Is War Ever Necessary or Justified?


From a "Depopulation-Agenda (https://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?113012-The-Depopulation-Plan)" perspective WARS are high up in the Top 10 of "practical solutions" ... on top of that from their point of view WARS help Cover Up their role in the Giant Pyramid Scheme called: Fiat Monetary System ... They know what happened in 2008 is not really "fixed" but just postponed with "bail out money" payed by tax paying citizens who are helping to keep them in power even if it is 100% proven they were the cause of the crisis.

The "too big too fail" bankers excuse did not fly in Iceland (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iceland), they fired and jailed the corrupt bankers who were co-responsible for the 2008 crisis! ... And Iceland did not "collapse" after doing that ... and still other countries defended the criminals to continue their money schemes the same type of corrupt people are now making it much worse!


* If all totalitarian (https://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?111148-The-Great-Reset) alternatives to "solve" the Giant Money Scam are not accepted aka rejected by the masses they always can fall back to WARS!
People are confronted with sold "excuses" to allow tyrannical measures during any from of a (big) crisis ... WARS is just one of many options for them to have it their way violating basic human rights & the constitution to "fix" things "faster". So called "emergency measures" to bypass normal democratic processes with NO ACCOUNTABILITY to those who are part of this big scam!

If World War I and II never happened we would still face HUGE monetary crisis that will lead to massive civil wars & mass famine & hunger! >>> "WARS" was & is a perfect way to cover up (ultra distraction of) what the core problem was and still is today. Ron Paul (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=obOLzwSn6sY) among others discussed this issue ad nauseam (https://www.youtube.com/c/RonPaulLibertyReport/videos).

https://images.chesscomfiles.com/uploads/v1/user/27474914.f5b631e7.161x161o.41651e66dca0.png (https://whynotnews.eu)

cheers,
John Kuhles aka 'ExomatrixTV'
August 23, 2022 🦜🦋🌳

[rgray222]

This is why, one day, there will be a single global government.




So the real problem on a global nation-state level is that there's no reliable, workable and functioning equivalent to address serious international conflicts. .


For me, this question boils down to sovereignty. I am willing to defend my sovereignty from anyone who attempts to take it from me. Hence, I am in a justified war against that person or nation.

Yes, sadly I could not agree more, I honestly believe the world is heading towards an inevitable global government. This has been the plan for more than a century, the League of Nations started in 1920 and failed, and the United Nations started in 1945 and is currently failing but the European Union started in 1993 (third time charmed) seems to be taking hold (with the exception of the UK). Once they homogenize countries into large geographic regions and sovereignty is greatly diminished or removed it will be an easy process to blend it all together into some form of global governance. We are already seeing attacks on gender, culture, history, all institutions and even race. It would be impossible to remove all of these things but enough will be taken out to bring national pride or patriotism to a screeching halt. At this point, a workable, functioning global government will be put in place



The other type is where the media fills people's heads with lies

I think this is already happening and that the media and the PTB are forcing people to choose sides in the conflict. We are already seeing the alignment of Russia, China and Iran against the USA, Europe and NATO. It could very well be that WWIII is inevitable. No better way to grab control and lower the population on a global scale than another world war. Of course, the minute one has chosen a side they have lost the battle. It is very much like the lotto, you may think or even believe that you have won but the truth is the government was always the winner week in and week out.

[JackMcThorn]

Is War Ever Necessary or Justified?

You cannot have 'self-defence' if there was not a pending imminent threat that requires a posture of 'self-defence'. Using an excuse such as 'what is in our best interests' does not necessarily dove-tail with 'self-defence'.

The best way to deal with a civilisation without the need for war; would be to provide civilisation without a need for money //root of all evil//. [This is the case in an ideal Star Trek earth; but even though war is eradicated from the face of the planet, many contacts off-world result in violent conflict. A posture of self-defence still exists to protect the Federation as well as the Earth.]

In 1992 in a secondary american history class the teacher indicated that america has not seen a period greater than 8 years of peace at any given time in its history. [For example, I took his word for it but I really should check. I know there have been plenty of conflicts since 1992.]

Peacefulness is not only exclusive to 'not war'.


Each year, the Institute for Economics and Peace releases the Global Peace Index. This is a study of 163 independent nations and territories around the world, comprising approximately 99.7% of the world’s total population, that analyzes which nations are the most peaceful, as well as which are the most dangerous. The GPI evaluates a total of 23 indicators to compile the list, which can be sorted into three distinct categories: militarization, safety and security, and domestic and international conflict. The indicators are then combined into a single Peace Index Score.

https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/most-peaceful-countries

The psychology of war between nations that starts with its leadership is akin to a regular argument escalating to fisticuffs. When diplomacy fails, violence ensues. Humanity can be very violent; even at the local, home level. So the eradication of money is not the only answer. Education is not the only answer either. Most people know better than to resort to violence, but many still do. The legal system is not the only answer because many local types of violent conflict never get reported.

As long as humanity is its various forms continues to act like animals [which humans are] there is a pressing need for a proper posture of self-defence; at the local level as well as the international level.

[Mark (Star Mariner)]

I believe there's an old Romulan saying: "Peace is merely the interruption of war."

And so it is on this barbaric world. But I believe war IS justifiable when it comes to self-defence - such as to repel an invasion. As others have said, sovereignty is key. Sovereignty means nothing if, when it comes under attack, you do nothing to uphold it.

You could argue the Red Army were engaged in exactly that sort of conflict during WWII. Yet, some of the atrocities they committed were on a par with those they were fighting.

War is fertile ground for the savage within us to flourish. Rules of Engagement delineate certain limitations of what conduct is acceptable in war. This is further overseen by the Geneva convention. That such a convention is even necessary tells you all you need to know about the human race and the planet we live on.

But in order to understand war, you have to recognise what drives it. It isn't wrath, revenge or bloodlust. Not really. At the end of the day the first directive of war is PROFIT. Elites get fat and rich on its plunder. That was the case in ancient times, and it's still the case today. There's another type of profit involved, and that's CONTROL. There's a kind of war going on right now outside your own front door, and across every city in the West. It's the war for control of your Mind, perhaps even your soul...

And in standing up to those subversive agendas YOU, right now, are at war.

[Casey Claar]

For me, this question boils down to sovereignty. I am willing to defend my sovereignty from anyone who attempts to take it from me. Hence, I am in a justified war against that person or nation.

I don't think anyone has the right to take away anyone else's sovereignty and I believe the vast majority, if not all wars, are waged specifically to take someone else's sovereignty.

Taking this to the question of mask mandates, vaccines, etc... the argument justifying those actions are, you must surrender your sovereignty and take the vax, etc. to protect your neighbor. For those of you who don't believe war is justifiable, you are agreeing to comply and surrender that bit of your sovereignty.

Bingo.

And the sovereignty is the sovereignty to choose, to make our own choices.

The fundamental choice we are all making is relative to our polarity, [ + ] or [ - }, this is the crux of any additional choice we could make.

The statement of the [ + ] is that ALL are sovereign. The statement of the [ - ] is that all are not sovereign.

This is the torque and friction in which we live/play.

Taking this whole structure in at once, it can viewed as simply our world, our 3D Earth-life existence. <-- Is this necessary? ( yes ). Is it justified? ( yes ). Everything is so much more than we realize. Each one of us, as well as all-together in our totality are the living expression of a particular dance, a fluctuating ratio of light and shadow. Were each of us not necessary to the dance we simply would not be. Were the totality of the dance not necessary it simply would not be.

Where it is most beneficial to place the attention is on our own choice of [ + ] or [ - ] and growing this into the equivalent of making the grade, graduating this level of reality. <-- this is what so many of us fail to do, instead focusing on the choice of others, which is truly what brings up the urge to fight, to force one's own will over others whether that be thought of as for [ + ] or [ - ].

It is those with the more [ + ] orientation who have the greatest struggle at this particular awareness. If all are sovereign there is no-one to fight. There is only within oneself a right and harmonious balance to maintain. This is why one who is truly working in a [ + ] fashion is synchronously working away from the tendency to infringe upon the free will of any other. I will stress here, any other.

It is a process. It is a very long process.

Observing ourselves in thought, energy and action is key.

Genuine, steady observance.


Casey

[rgray222]

War is fertile ground for the savage within us to flourish.

I agree with this statement if we allow it to happen but evolution is inevitable over time and by that, I mean learned experiences that are eventually accepted by all of society. What I am getting at is altruism - the belief or practice of disinterested and selfless concerns for the well-being of others. Once something like this takes hold in civilization it removes much of the savage in mankind or at the very least does not allow it to flourish. Thereby making war obsolete.

[Mark (Star Mariner)]

I agree with this statement if we allow it to happen but evolution is inevitable over time and by that, I mean learned experiences that are eventually accepted by all of society. What I am getting at is altruism - the belief or practice of disinterested and selfless concerns for the well-being of others. Once something like this takes hold in civilization it removes much of the savage in mankind or at the very least does not allow it to flourish. Thereby making war obsolete.

Totally agreed but, the system we have allows the least altruistic to rise to the top and control everything. Altruism to them is as alien as brutality and savagery is to the rest of us. So long as this system remains nothing will change.

[Personally speaking, I do not believe that system can change save for a radical if not revolutionary shift in global consciousness/vibration, one in which the malevolent and destructive do not exist - because they cannot exist.]

[ExomatrixTV]

When you are conquered by others who have total different values & belief-systems that will eventually be imposed upon you and your family and future generations to come with dire consequences ... you may reconsider why it is necessary to defend (y)our sovereignty & self-determination rights ... as you do that not only for yourself but all who are dear to you too >>> plus all future generations to come.


most will attest to that!
same goes for what the WEF (https://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?118748-Top-10-Creepiest-Most-Dystopian-Things-Pushed-By-The-World-Economic-Forum) is doing to the whole planet right now! << the worldwide resistance (https://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?118943-Dutch-Farmers-Fighting-Back-Against-Government-s-Green-Agenda-Connected-to-WEF) to this technocratic (https://technocracy.news) tyranny is only growing rapidly right now >> (asymmetric warfare).

cheers,
John 🦜🦋🌳

[rgray222]

[Personally speaking, I do not believe that system can change save for a radical if not revolutionary shift in global consciousness/vibration, one in which the malevolent and destructive do not exist - because they cannot exist.]

I have no doubt that there will be a global awakening at some point. In other words the waking of the silent majority. Once that happens we could easily watch changes in behaviours occur overnight. We could essentially shut down the war machine in a matter of days. We could either close or force a change on every company on the planet that profits from war. Nations that profit from war could suffer greatly. The only question I have is when is the shift going to occur, before or after WWIII, I am afraid it will probably be the later.

[Spiral]

The other type is where the media fills people's heads with lies

I think this is already happening and that the media and the PTB are forcing people to choose sides in the conflict. We are already seeing the alignment of Russia, China and Iran against the USA, Europe and NATO. It could very well be that WWIII is inevitable. No better way to grab control and lower the population on a global scale than another world war. Of course, the minute one has chosen a side they have lost the battle. It is very much like the lotto, you may think or even believe that you have won but the truth is the government was always the winner week in and week out.

The USA & Europe are NATO, in truth a minority of the worlds population and they are utterly out numbered & out gunned by the others, and it's not they who have come out against NATO, it's the other way round, just compare how many wars & conflicts Russia & China have started & then compare that with the USA, Britain & France.

Out of all of NATO only the USA has a large force, but it's been made sick with experimental medical treatments, equipped with vastly overpriced & under-performing kit (due to corruption at every level) ...and then there's the problem with recruiting, between the corporations pushing junk food & the CIA flooding the country with drugs it's now a serious problem finding young people fit to be soldiers.

The European branch of NATO has tiny forces that have been under funded for decades, the french admitted they have enough ammunition for three or four days full combat.....besides the cuts, there is also the woke PC agenda that doesn't want big threatening men in uniform.....

The situation ATM is that the stronger nations outside the Anglo Saxon sphere have prepared them selves carefully, and are now standing up, other nations that have suffered & been plundered by the West are flocking to their banner, they are openly boasting of a new multi polar world with no one nation or political entity having dominion, the question is what are the satanic psychopaths who run the West going to do in relation to this ?

Who do we look to ? Senile Brandon who isn't in charge of anything, (so who is ???) Over here we have a siting duck Prime Minister, and two idiots lined up to replace him with the slight problem that you can only be the PM if the Monarch says so.....and there isn't one, the Queen passed over a while back. I can't post a source for that but I bet no one can prove she is still alive.

There is literally no one to negotiate with Russia or China (or anyone else).

This is where the real danger lies IMHO.

[Vangelo]

First let me state that I am in complete agreement with those of you that wish for a world where we did not disintegrate to the point of war. I too yearn for the Nirvana described by many here. Having said that, I think we must acknowledge the flaws of our humanity. See the reality of what humanity is capable of.

Let me describe this idea using this quote from Jack...


Is War Ever Necessary or Justified?
...
The best way to deal with a civilisation without the need for war; would be to provide civilisation without a need for money //root of all evil//. [This is the case in an ideal Star Trek earth; but even though war is eradicated from the face of the planet, many contacts off-world result in violent conflict. A posture of self-defence still exists to protect the Federation as well as the Earth.]
...

I would change the wording slightly from 'Money' to 'any resource'. This is ultimately about the concept of scarcity. Humanity fights for scarce resources; if for no other reason, survival i.e. I can't stand by and watch my kid starve to death...

Some will extend this argument to the idea of zero point energy i.e. if we had free energy then we could provide all resources to everyone. I truly hope we can harness it some day ...

However, I believe there is one other thing some humans crave and are willing to start wars over ... Power. Just think of any tyrant from history. Those tyrants didn't just pop into power... Often times they started with a small, but divisive, topic. One where the charismatic leader convinces the populace to give up one tiny piece of their sovereignty, then another. They set up a dichotomy of them versus us and therefore promote identity politics. Then they ... no need for me to continue, you all know the methodical process where we currently living in.

To repeat my previous post, its all about sovereignty and sovereignty begins with freedom of speech and freedom of speech begins with the freedom to think and believe what you want (as described so well in Orwell's 1984).

[Chester]

If my (informed) speculations are reasonably accurate, we are dealing with a hyperdimensional breakaway civilization (including an opposing "rebel" faction with the same '5D level tech' (ie. time travel)) as perhaps the greatest challenge the masses of humanity face. There's other challenges for sure, but this one may be the most immanent and ominous one of all. In fact, if my (informed) speculation is reasonably accurate, 'humanity, as we think we know it' was a hybrid creation of the primary hyperdimensional civilization which created us as slaves for their usage. If my (informed) speculations are reasonably accurate, they are millions and millions of years ahead in technological development than what we even speculate as possible from even the most imaginative minds within this 'terrestrial humanity' that was their creation.

This leads me to speculate that if I were "them" I would have focused on the development of a quantum AI computing system which would advise "them" on moves "they" should make whereby real-time input constantly updates the data set and where adjustments in plans are always offered by the system. Because "they" have time travel technology, they also have the capability to go back in time as many times as they wish so as to adjust current trajectories. Anyone can see that a civilization armed with this level of technology combined with a sense of themselves as a species ABOVE the masses of humanity (again, as we know it and again, that they created) would likely have no empathy for us whatsoever.

Whereas, the hypothesized "rebels" (if they be as I suspect) have taken the side of humanity. Which gives me some confidence that from within the original breakaway, conscience can still arise and doing the right thing can still emerge from those who bring forth what I refer to as the Promethean ethos.

My only suggestion to anyone is that each put some time into studying this "story" and what the key elements of the story of Prometheus represent. I have never come upon a more inspiring story.

[JackMcThorn]

Having said that, I think we must acknowledge the flaws of our humanity. See the reality of what humanity is capable of.

I would change the wording slightly from 'Money' to 'any resource'.

You make a strong point regarding resources. Even the scarcity of water can be an issue.

The crux of the problem lies in psychology, in my opinion.

A Global shift in psychology seems absolutely impossible. From the under developed third world nations to rulers such as royalty or even elected officials, a change in collective psychology won't happen in our lifetimes. There are still kingdoms on this planet. There are still isolated indigenous peoples on this planet. There is still domestic abuse. Consider the brutality of riots in america. This is a third-world example of misbehaviour in 'the land of the free'. Insofar as the american way is often thought of an example to the world, and in this one example it fails miserably. And there is plenty more failures as you already are aware.

Consider the spiritual and intellectual value of Project Avalon. PA is a good example of this future psychology. Sure there are brief instances where people do not get along and the occasional unsubscription. But PA is not a society and far from a civilisation. The scale is very small in the scheme of humanity. The powers that be do not visit PA for intellectual stimulation or spiritual guidance. They are typically consuming [or producing] the MSM.

Some people embrace an impossible challenge, but inflicting a spiritual and intellectual value upon the world in which humanity could 'agree with' is not exactly in arms reach. The basis for disagreements at the local, national, and global levels are indeed impossible as well. A third world war might not be enough. The Second one was the one to end all wars if you remember.

[Casey Claar]

[Personally speaking, I do not believe that system can change save for a radical if not revolutionary shift in global consciousness/vibration, one in which the malevolent and destructive do not exist - because they cannot exist.]

I have no doubt that there will be a global awakening at some point. In other words the waking of the silent majority. Once that happens we could easily watch changes in behaviours occur overnight. We could essentially shut down the war machine in a matter of days. We could either close or force a change on every company on the planet that profits from war. Nations that profit from war could suffer greatly. The only question I have is when is the shift going to occur, before or after WWIII, I am afraid it will probably be the later.

There is only one way out of war for the [ + ].

It is the actualizing of the statement "all are sovereign." The [ + ] are sovereign, the [ - ] are sovereign, ALL are sovereign as all are the potential expressions of a core Singularity. Seeing the oneness of all things, ie: what is "fundamental" to the "array" is the way the [ + ] spin more [ + ]. Without first seeing this it is an infinite challenge. The sole conquering, to quote John's choice of concepts, is over once's basic pole, ie: the [ - ] getting the [ + ] to work, act and function toward its own deficit ( and vice versa ). Which the statements above in bold are fair examples of. The primary attention on self, the alignment within oneself, with oneself is what will yield the peace those here say they wish. It is what will grow each and every potential expression of being out beyond where it is now. I do understand, though, there are miles and miles to go to get here.

[Chester]

If my (informed) speculations are reasonably accurate, we are dealing with a hyperdimensional breakaway civilization (including an opposing "rebel" faction with the same '5D level tech' (ie. time travel)) as perhaps the greatest challenge the masses of humanity face. There's other challenges for sure, but this one may be the most immanent and ominous one of all. In fact, if my (informed) speculation is reasonably accurate, 'humanity, as we think we know it' was a hybrid creation of the primary hyperdimensional civilization which created us as slaves for their usage. If my (informed) speculations are reasonably accurate, they are millions and millions of years ahead in technological development than what we even speculate as possible from even the most imaginative minds within this 'terrestrial humanity' that was their creation.

This leads me to speculate that if I were "them" I would have focused on the development of a quantum AI computing system which would advise "them" on moves "they" should make whereby real-time input constantly updates the data set and where adjustments in plans are always offered by the system. Because "they" have time travel technology, they also have the capability to go back in time as many times as they wish so as to adjust current trajectories. Anyone can see that a civilization armed with this level of technology combined with a sense of themselves as a species ABOVE the masses of humanity (again, as we know it and again, that they created) would likely have no empathy for us whatsoever.

Whereas, the hypothesized "rebels" (if they be as I suspect) have taken the side of humanity. Which gives me some confidence that from within the original breakaway, conscience can still arise and doing the right thing can still emerge from those who bring forth what I refer to as the Promethean ethos.

My only suggestion to anyone is that each put some time into studying this "story" and what the key elements of the story of Prometheus represent. I have never come upon a more inspiring story.

Anyone interested in considering the attitude that an advanced (technologically) breakaway civilization might hold... consider watching the following.

C31XYgr8gp0

Would you "lay down" to this or "fight?"

[Tyy1907]

War is fertile ground for the savage within us to flourish.

I agree with this statement if we allow it to happen but evolution is inevitable over time and by that, I mean learned experiences that are eventually accepted by all of society. What I am getting at is altruism - the belief or practice of disinterested and selfless concerns for the well-being of others. Once something like this takes hold in civilization it removes much of the savage in mankind or at the very least does not allow it to flourish. Thereby making war obsolete.

So the question becomes what throws us off to lose that altruistic nature?

Would a child even conceive of killing another human being? It's not on their radar. Clearly it is forces acting in this world that influence us.

[onawah]

I think it's obvious! You say that strife is necessary and makes creativity thrive, yet you become disheartened when you observe strife on the forum, resulting in difficulty in having a civil debate.
Strife also can cause people to become uncivil and often unreasonable.
A forum is all about discussion. If everyone agreed about everything, there really wouldn't be much discussion.

I think it should be remembered that the work of distinguished researcher Marija Gimbutus ( http://mmstudies.com/scholars/gimbutas/ ) showed significant evidence that matriarchal cultures did not engage in war and that was largely because the goal was to see that everyone's basic needs were met.
Of course, modern Communism professes to have that same goal at its heart, but in reality nothing has been further from the truth.
Possibly in part because women still don't have an equal say in how things work in most parts of the world.



There seems to be a contradiction in your reasonsing here.


Strife is the fundamental driver of evolution. Creativity thrives the most during strife. Without it, complacency sets in and eventually entropy and that is the end of "the story." With consciousness as the fundamental substance, "story" makes meaning out of life. Story without strife never lasts long... it becomes too boring, too stagnant.
Even deeper entrenched are their metaphysics and spiritual beliefs. Just look at the sharp folks on this forum that then go at the throats of others when their spiritual beliefs are challenged or their metaphysical world views are challenged. It is almost impossible to have an intellectual discussion or a civil debate about these matters, again... even on this forum.
And I find this very disheartening.


Point it out. I'm open, but you need to point it out.

[Casey Claar]

So the question becomes what throws us off to lose that altruistic nature?

Would a child even conceive of killing another human being? It's not on their radar. Clearly it is forces acting in this world that influence us.

It is necessary to point to.

We ourself - ( self ) - is the priori, influence is subsequential. Meaning first there is a self, a "you, me, we, us" then potentially there can be influence. It is important to glean. Saying that influence is coming from somewhere outside ourself, that we are being influenced by another, is the same sentence as "I am a slave." Ie: someone or something has, or is having control over me. It is not a good position to place oneself in. Yet there can be the tendency to do it frequently >> to ourself << with our own thinking.

The forces are not exactly what we tend to think. They are SPIN, rates and ratios of spin, complete and incomplete geometries. I imagine most here will not want to discuss this, and I am limited in my own ability so I will leave off at simply bringing it to the light of the current page with the notation that no inherent judgement is applied at any time to any portion of what this is, manifests as, or does. We apply our own awareness/observation/understanding to this in ways that are of help, or hindrance, ONLY EVER to our own chosen [ + or - ] spin.

When this, and the ramifications of this are acknowledged and rightly understood,

This is the beginning, of the ending of war.


Casey

[Chester]

I think it's obvious! You say that strife is necessary and makes creativity thrive, yet you become disheartened when you observe strife on the forum, resulting in difficulty in having a civil debate.
Strife also can cause people to become uncivil and often unreasonable.
A forum is all about discussion. If everyone agreed about everything, there really wouldn't be much discussion.

I think it should be remembered that the work of distinguished researcher Marija Gimbutus ( http://mmstudies.com/scholars/gimbutas/ ) showed significant evidence that matriarchal cultures did not engage in war and that was largely because the goal was to see that everyone's basic needs were met.
Of course, modern Communism professes to have that same goal at its heart, but in reality nothing has been further from the truth.
Possibly in part because women still don't have an equal say in how things work in most parts of the world.



There seems to be a contradiction in your reasonsing here.


Strife is the fundamental driver of evolution. Creativity thrives the most during strife. Without it, complacency sets in and eventually entropy and that is the end of "the story." With consciousness as the fundamental substance, "story" makes meaning out of life. Story without strife never lasts long... it becomes too boring, too stagnant.
Even deeper entrenched are their metaphysics and spiritual beliefs. Just look at the sharp folks on this forum that then go at the throats of others when their spiritual beliefs are challenged or their metaphysical world views are challenged. It is almost impossible to have an intellectual discussion or a civil debate about these matters, again... even on this forum.
And I find this very disheartening.


Point it out. I'm open, but you need to point it out.

I was specific about two areas that I have found are all but undiscussable on this forum. World views and spiritual beliefs. That is what, for me, is disheartening. I have been on this forum for a decade and have gotten to know it pretty well. Those who come in with opposing world views and/or spiritual beliefs are treated pretty roughly here... a place where I had hoped intellectual discussion of the matters could occur more respectfully. Understand, I am not alone in this view. Just speak with many who have left and you'll hear quite the same.

An example of this is when focusing on a single point, one is met with a 1,000 word response that goes all over the place. What does someone do with that? Most just walk away.

Look at the response so far to this post (https://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?119331-Jorjani-and-his-take-on-Dugan-s-Fourth-Political-Theory-and-Jorjani-s-counter-philosophy-Prometheism&p=1514024&viewfull=1#post1514024).

Not one "thanks" - 16 views initially and none since soon after posting - one hour ago. My conclusion... just too intellectually challenging for most (not all... but most).

Where are those who can speak to the content discussed in the video of the OP? Would anyone wish to discuss or debate the merits (or otherwise) of Jorjani's Prometheism?

Is anyone willing to consider an expansion or a complete revision in their currently held world view and established spiritual beliefs?

Is anyone willing to explore Jorjani's views related to what is actually "eugenics" (gene improvement) beyond their biases by doing the homework to even have such a debate?

Is anyone willing to consider what may actually be going on "on Earth and surrounding heavenly bodies" instead of simply settling for what they wish to believe? Including what they believe about our history?

Where are those minds that I used to find all over this forum?

[onawah]

I have to agree with that--I miss a lot of former members too.
But the forum has gone through a lot of ups and downs, and I'm just grateful it's still here at all, given the way the internet is being censored and manipulated more and more.



Where are those minds that I used to find all over this forum?

[Chester]

I have to agree with that--I miss a lot of former members too.
But the forum has gone through a lot of ups and downs, and I'm just grateful it's still here at all, given the way the internet is being censored and manipulated more and more.



Where are those minds that I used to find all over this forum?

This is to you, personally, Onawah. You once wrote a post which happened to be on June 18, 2019. This post was, for me, so exceptional, that I copied and pasted it to a WORD document where I, from time to time, re-read it. It was also far more than 1,000 words, but like Bill's lengthy post yesterday, explaining himself from his heart (based on his experience with the strangeness that occurred on the Darya Dugan thread) you wrote what is still, for me, the #1 post I ever read on this forum. You can imagine also the respect I have for the one who penned it.

This is that post - https://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?107445-A-very-important-announcement&p=1297909&viewfull=1#post1297909

I have been in and out of this forum. When I take breaks, it is always with so many of the points you made in this post foremost in my mind.

[Mari]

Is war so entrenched in the human psyche that it will be impossible to end?

I would love to hear your thoughts.

I don't think war is entrenched in the general human psyche, but it has always been used as a control tool by the ruling elites throughout our history. War is about control of the populace, the carving up of territories and is massively profitable. The war machine has been rolled out to shape chosen elitist narratives...the Ukraine debacle being the latest theatre show.

[rgray222]

So the question becomes what throws us off to lose that altruistic nature?

Would a child even conceive of killing another human being? It's not on their radar. Clearly, it is a force acting in this world that influences us.

Some evidence points to humans being innately cooperative but not necessarily altruistic. It appears to be a trait that is naturally picked up if the environmental (relationship) conditions are just right. Also, there are some studies that indicate that the further mankind evolves the more likely he is to take up altruistic behaviours.

It is such an important issue because it has much to do with how we treat our fellow man. While there have been a lot of studies nobody is willing to give definitive answers about altruism because Darwin suggested that the discovery of altruism would annihilate his theory of natural selection, especially between species. That being said I don't put a lot of stock into Darwin because I no more think we climbed out of a swamp than the moon is made of green cheese. The evolution of mankind can be seen after we arrived. The missing link is still missing.

Sorry did not mean to get so off track but I do believe altruism may be ultimately what saves man from our own eradication.

[onawah]

Thanks Chester, it's very nice to be appreciated! :flower:
And I extend that flower in peace if I've ever posted anything that made you feel disheartened.

As you can see, I didn't take my own advice and here I still am, spending so much of my time online and on this forum in particular.
As for the book The Infinite Jest, I did start to read it but couldn't get through it!
:jester:
But I do still read a lot, so my internet addiction hasn't completely enslaved me, at least...
A synchronicity: Mike and I have been having a great conversation about Heyoka, or, in Tarot, the Fool, an element which has played a large part in both our lives.
I often repeat that old cliche:" if you don't have your health, you don't have anything", but that sure goes for a sense of humor as well in this increasingly crazy world.

Would you please provide the link for Bill's post that you mentioned? I haven't been following that story, but I would be interested to read his post.
Thanks again.




I have to agree with that--I miss a lot of former members too.
But the forum has gone through a lot of ups and downs, and I'm just grateful it's still here at all, given the way the internet is being censored and manipulated more and more.



Where are those minds that I used to find all over this forum?

This is to you, personally, Onawah. You once wrote a post which happened to be on June 18, 2019. This post was, for me, so exceptional, that I copied and pasted it to a WORD document where I, from time to time, re-read it. It was also far more than 1,000 words, but like Bill's lengthy post yesterday, explaining himself from his heart (based on his experience with the strangeness that occurred on the Darya Dugan thread) you wrote what is still, for me, the #1 post I ever read on this forum. You can imagine also the respect I have for the one who penned it.

This is that post - https://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?107445-A-very-important-announcement&p=1297909&viewfull=1#post1297909

I have been in and out of this forum. When I take breaks, it is always with so many of the points you made in this post foremost in my mind.

[Chester]

Would you please provide the link for Bill's post that you mentioned? I haven't been following that story, but I would be interested to read his post.
Thanks again.


This one... https://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?119317-Propaganda-Wars&p=1513813&viewfull=1#post1513813

[Delight]

I have been on this forum for a decade and have gotten to know it pretty well. Those who come in with opposing world views and/or spiritual beliefs are treated pretty roughly here... a place where I had hoped intellectual discussion of the matters could occur more respectfully. Understand, I am not alone in this view. Just speak with many who have left and you'll hear quite the same.

I don't have the same perception as you on this at all. I am aware of some who "left" who NEVER "LEFT" as they cannot stop thinking about PA, writing about it and hating it. SAD.

We are all a lone POV attempting to share it IMO. Considering the various lives , languages and history of people, I think this forum is very collegial.

More and more I feel that my reality is not at all in the same book as many others. However, I am experiencing that I am safe, I am respected, I am MAYBE invisible but in every way I am able to stand solidly on my own inner knowing... what anyone else thinks/believes will not sway me but WILL entertain.

[onawah]

PS It may also be that some of the departed members that I miss (who I don't think number among those who became inimical to the forum) actually overcame their own internet addiction and are pursuing other interests....just a thought.

[Casey Claar]

I was specific about two areas that I have found are all but undiscussable on this forum. World views and spiritual beliefs. That is what, for me, is disheartening. I have been on this forum for a decade and have gotten to know it pretty well. Those who come in with opposing world views and/or spiritual beliefs are treated pretty roughly here... a place where I had hoped intellectual discussion of the matters could occur more respectfully. Understand, I am not alone in this view. Just speak with many who have left and you'll hear quite the same.

An example of this is when focusing on a single point, one is met with a 1,000 word response that goes all over the place. What does someone do with that? Most just walk away.

Look at the response so far to this post (https://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?119331-Jorjani-and-his-take-on-Dugan-s-Fourth-Political-Theory-and-Jorjani-s-counter-philosophy-Prometheism&p=1514030#post1514030)?

Not one "thanks" - 16 views initially and none since soon after posting - one hour ago. My conclusion... just too intellectually challenging for most (not all... but most).

Where are those who can speak to the content discussed in the video of the OP? Would anyone wish to discuss or debate the merits (or otherwise) of Jorjani's Prometheism?

Is anyone willing to consider an expansion or a complete revision in their currently held world view and established spiritual beliefs?

Is anyone willing to explore Jorjani's views related to what is actually "eugenics" (gene improvement) beyond their biases by doing the homework to even have such a debate?

Is anyone willing to consider what may actually be going on "on Earth and surrounding heavenly bodies" instead of simply settling for what they wish to believe? Including what they believe about our history?

Where are those minds that I used to find all over this forum?

Chester,

I don't know about others, but if all is posted is a video with a few words, I generally pass by. Unless, that is, the person who posted the video is also who created it. For the most I am interested what those who are here are experiencing themselves, their own insights, observations, feelings, experiences. What it is they are learning. Politics and religion do not interest me. YOU do. - ( consciousness does, <-- where you are or may be spiritually ). Btw, just to say, of all those I have read from here on this forum, you stand out in the ability to be vulnerable, to let your genuine energy go out and be felt. I appreciate this. It is one of a few reasons I have felt hope here. This is just to say, you are necessary---needed. Find hope in that you give it to others. The rest will fill itself in.


Casey

[East Sun]

Yes, to defend your country against aggressors. That is the
duty of anyone who is capable of doing the right thing.

Fighting with an army that invades another country is not
a noble endeavor. Millions have done so having no choice
in the matter, others because they were told that they belonged
to a number one country that had a right to rule. Another
example of brainwashing of the gullible poor duped masses.

[Tyy1907]

So the question becomes what throws us off to lose that altruistic nature?

Would a child even conceive of killing another human being? It's not on their radar. Clearly, it is a force acting in this world that influences us.

Some evidence points to humans being innately cooperative but not necessarily altruistic. It appears to be a trait that is naturally picked up if the environmental (relationship) conditions are just right. Also, there are some studies that indicate that the further mankind evolves the more likely he is to take up altruistic behaviours.

It is such an important issue because it has much to do with how we treat our fellow man. While there have been a lot of studies nobody is willing to give definitive answers about altruism because Darwin suggested that the discovery of altruism would annihilate his theory of natural selection, especially between species. That being said I don't put a lot of stock into Darwin because I no more think we climbed out of a swamp that the moon is made of green cheese. The evolution of mankind can be seen after we arrived. The missing link is still missing.

Sorry did not mean to get so off track but I do believe altruism may be ultimately what saves man from our own eradication.

I think you're onto something here. Altruism - the selfless concern for others.

How can this concern for others be utilized practically? In the context of this thread. Who is behind the antagonizing, the dirty tricks being used to induce the next war. If they succeed at getting a full blown war going the fate of humanity could be on their heads. Who could be capable of such monumental depravity?

[Johnnycomelately]

“Is war ever necessary or justified?” Apparently yes, because it exists.

War is not qualitatively different than anybody’s sh*ty actions resulting from selfishness. It is a symptom, a manifestation, of exactly that. Try to not throw the first stone, is all we can do.

[Casey Claar]

“Is war ever necessary or justified?” Apparently yes, because it exists.

War is not qualitatively different than anybody’s sh*ty actions resulting from selfishness. It is a symptom, a manifestation, of exactly that. Try to not throw the first stone, is all we can do.

It is quite literally being out of alignment with ourself. ( yes )

Which is why I keep pointing to what I do.

[TargeT]

“Is war ever necessary or justified?” Apparently yes, because it exists.

War is not qualitatively different than anybody’s sh*ty actions resulting from selfishness. It is a symptom, a manifestation, of exactly that. Try to not throw the first stone, is all we can do.

It is quite literally being out of alignment with ourself. ( yes )

Which is why I keep pointing to what I do.

There are many facets to our various experiences.

and based on (planned IMO) the nature of our different experiences, often our perspective and events are most influential; while not disregarding other's (often drastically) different experiences we do not seem to give them full weight when compared to our own.

"War" as a term is interesting and I bet that most of us have vastly different definitions of that term. My personal take is that "war" is not bound by scale, there are multiple documented "family feuds" that could easily be sliced out of some larger conflict (all conflict really comes down to the base level of the parties that agree to be there, even if it's just two people).

If someone is violent with people I care about or myself, why would I not "go to war" with them; who can say how far they will go and why should I gamble that they won't kill or maim my loved ones?

So if we are talking about war based on scale, I guess I think the discussion is a bit lost, everything starts locally; is self defense not "war"?

[Chester]

“Is war ever necessary or justified?” Apparently yes, because it exists.

War is not qualitatively different than anybody’s sh*ty actions resulting from selfishness. It is a symptom, a manifestation, of exactly that. Try to not throw the first stone, is all we can do.

It is quite literally being out of alignment with ourself. ( yes )

Which is why I keep pointing to what I do.

But imagine a world where all beings were "perfectly aligned" (and what would that be, anyways?)... wouldn't that become incredibly stagnant?

[Casey Claar]

“Is war ever necessary or justified?” Apparently yes, because it exists.

War is not qualitatively different than anybody’s sh*ty actions resulting from selfishness. It is a symptom, a manifestation, of exactly that. Try to not throw the first stone, is all we can do.

It is quite literally being out of alignment with ourself. ( yes )

Which is why I keep pointing to what I do.

But imagine a world where all beings were "perfectly aligned" (and what would that be, anyways?)... wouldn't that become incredibly stagnant?

Relative to here [ 3D ], yes I would say so. 3D it would seem is where most the heavy lifting gets done. ( pun intended, lol ).

But we've quite the potential distance to go to get to anything as still as all that.

I think the idea in our own present density is simply to CHOOSE the aim.

To be singular within ourself and not acting at our own odds.

Perfection is not something that occurs squarely here.

Plenty of room for blunder. And thereby ample compassion for other stumblers in the dark, eh?

What would happen if more hearts opened in genuine compassion?

Would war "lessen"?

[Casey Claar]

I read Chester's sentence, "but imagine a world where all beings were "perfectly aligned" ( within themself )". To keep it on track.

Choice and change is all of the self. Wholeheartedly agreed.

I would add also, that when this is known, war begins to be a thing of the past.

If only more people would see it. And at least endeavor to work toward it.

[Chester]

I was specific about two areas that I have found are all but undiscussable on this forum. World views and spiritual beliefs. That is what, for me, is disheartening. I have been on this forum for a decade and have gotten to know it pretty well. Those who come in with opposing world views and/or spiritual beliefs are treated pretty roughly here... a place where I had hoped intellectual discussion of the matters could occur more respectfully. Understand, I am not alone in this view. Just speak with many who have left and you'll hear quite the same.

An example of this is when focusing on a single point, one is met with a 1,000 word response that goes all over the place. What does someone do with that? Most just walk away.

Look at the response so far to this post (https://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?119331-Jorjani-and-his-take-on-Dugan-s-Fourth-Political-Theory-and-Jorjani-s-counter-philosophy-Prometheism&p=1514030#post1514030)?

Not one "thanks" - 16 views initially and none since soon after posting - one hour ago. My conclusion... just too intellectually challenging for most (not all... but most).

Where are those who can speak to the content discussed in the video of the OP? Would anyone wish to discuss or debate the merits (or otherwise) of Jorjani's Prometheism?

Is anyone willing to consider an expansion or a complete revision in their currently held world view and established spiritual beliefs?

Is anyone willing to explore Jorjani's views related to what is actually "eugenics" (gene improvement) beyond their biases by doing the homework to even have such a debate?

Is anyone willing to consider what may actually be going on "on Earth and surrounding heavenly bodies" instead of simply settling for what they wish to believe? Including what they believe about our history?

Where are those minds that I used to find all over this forum?

Chester,

I don't know about others, but if all is posted is a video with a few words, I generally pass by. Unless, that is, the person who posted the video is also who created it. For the most I am interested what those who are here are experiencing themselves, their own insights, observations, feelings, experiences. What it is they are learning. Politics and religion do not interest me. YOU do. - ( consciousness does, <-- where you are or may be spiritually ). Btw, just to say, of all those I have read from here on this forum, you stand out in the ability to be vulnerable, to let your genuine energy go out and be felt. I appreciate this. It is one of a few reasons I have felt hope here. This is just to say, you are necessary---needed. Find hope in that you give it to others. The rest will fill itself in.


Casey

The post I featured was an error, I had meant to link to the one above it (which I will correct). Context is provided there for both videos.

[rgray222]

Julian Assange saying that nearly every war for the past 50 years has been the result of media lies.


https://img-9gag-fun.9cache.com/photo/aGz3OOn_460svav1.mp4

[Casey Claar]

So long as that finger is directed outward, we are STILL not getting it. There is but one destiny to positioning ourselves so. ( the wheel )

[rgray222]

Just a one minute video but makes a lot of sense.

https://img-9gag-fun.9cache.com/photo/aRr550y_460svav1.mp4

[JackMcThorn]

Just a one minute video but makes a lot of sense.

America is not blessed with common sense both at Echelon and among the people. Sure, someone brings it up from time to time but words are not actions. When you start seeing actions, that will be the paradigm shift and it is not to say it starts with america. [Although many used to think the example was america for some time.]

I am beginning to wonder if the events we are seeing: Natural Disasters including armed conflict, are some sort of punishment of particular areas. When it comes to balance, which nature does do effectively, it seems like nature does take its sweet time.

[East Sun]

Some people have said that the globalists have been defeated.
I sincerely hope that that is so.

If not it would be a good idea to stop them as they are causing havoc
world wide against humanity, which is us I believe or any living entity
that is on the side of humanity.

We have problems in--fighting among ourselvs, something we need to
resolve soon before we have to deal with off/on planet groups far more
advanced than us. We need to start thinking in advanced, get rid of
Biden and all crime families who are totally motivated by greed.

How can we eliminate greed? That would be a good place to start
thinking about don't you think----any ideas anyone.........

[rgray222]

This is something that I posted on WW3? Ukraine/US vs. Donbass/Russia (https://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?114491-WW3-Ukraine-US-vs.-Donbass-Russia&p=1519947&viewfull=1#post1519947), I thought it might be appropriate on this thread as well.


I would like to take a second and rant, my apologies if it ruffles a few feathers but mine fell back in place when I finished writing this.

One of the major consequences of war is the impact on the mental health of civilians and soldiers, it is tremendously significant. Not one person in the war zone escapes, not men, women, children, the elderly, the disabled or even our pets. There is a definite increase in the incidence and prevalence of severe mental disorders in all people but especially women. The long-term effects of war are simple, it destroys countries, communities, families and individuals. The suicide rate of those participating and those that are impacted by war catapults to obscene levels, these souls are lost forever.

Wars do not make men or countries great, but they do bring out the greatness in good men. War is romantic only to those who are far away from the horrific sounds, turmoil, destruction, blood and death on the battlefield. Romanticizing war is an idiots game played by politicians, mainstream media moguls and only those that have something to gain.

To make war work it needs a villain, the bigger the better, this justifies the chaotic death and destruction on a grand scale and makes the hero (usually a false champion) shine a bit brighter. It forces people to choose sides even those that have no material interest in the war. Once you choose sides you are participating and condoning in the murder and destruction of war. Once you have chosen sides you have become a willing pawn in the system, you might as well be on the battlefield with a weapon. The game cannot be played without a villain, the game cannot be played without participants.

A sea change needs to take place regarding how we think about our political leadership. Politicians that discuss or suggest war as a real option to solve problems need to be removed from leadership roles. If one country or village has a grievance with another there should be a mechanism to hash it out with words and diplomacy, not hate and guns.

We need to flip our priorities, memorializing science, invention, creative thinking and altruistic behaviour not war and death.

[East Sun]

Problem is with the people who, behind the scenes, start wars and gain
a lot financially. They are not even seen as part of the equation.

People have to fight to protect themselves and often their country.

[Bill Ryan]

No-one reading this would wish for unjustified violence against any human (or in my own case, against any living thing).

But the problems are about the lack of effective legal recourse to immoral or unethical acts.

That's why wars happen — because (in the eyes of the instigators, and usually all the participants) there's no other way to settle a dispute.

Near the very start of this thread, I shared these thoughts on my post #13 (https://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?119327-Is-War-Ever-Necessary-or-Justified&p=1513908&viewfull=1#post1513908). It feels 100% clear to me that this is the overwhelmingly principal issue.

~~~

Thanks for the excellent thread. :thumbsup:

I'm only going to offer an analogy, because it might be helpful in thinking about this.

We almost always consider war as war between nations. But the exact parallel would be a war with your neighbor.

He keeps stealing your chickens, or moves his fence posts over the border into your own property to steal a little of the land you have available in your garden. Or maybe (as in the Trojan War!) he has an affair with your wife.

As a citizen, you should have legal recourse. And in a fair and just society, that would, or should, work. But in all of known human history, that's a very recent innovation.

We might assume that 40,000 years ago, if you were a Cro-Magnon, and a Neanderthal stole what you considered to be your property, you might get together a posse of your friends and family and go steal it back, beating him up in the process and maybe stealing some of his property in revenge. That's how things worked for eons.

Now, we have police and law courts — imperfect though they may be. But it's at least a theoretically good idea. Ask any Ancient Roman or Greek.

So the real problem on a global nation-state level is that there's no reliable, workable and functioning equivalent to address serious international conflicts. (I stress "reliable, workable and functioning".)

If there were, then no nation-state wars should be necessary. In a future (and ideal!) Star Trek world, we might imagine that all this had been ironed out and so war between fellow-humans had become a relic of the past.

[onawah]

Bumping this thread with some very insightful words of wisdom from Alan Watts, beginning at 13 minutes into the video, about how Democracy inevitably becomes Fascism...
And at 16 minutes in, about why a wise King keeps the Court Fool :jester: close by, to remind the King that he too is only human, and not to give himself airs and graces, and to remember that there are forces and domains far beyond his...
And finally, that it is very difficult in our present world to abandon nationality.
(Themes that may also apply to the discussion in the thread "China Spying and Cyberwarfare". )

51mBqzhQUGI

[rgray222]

I was on a site today and just by chance, I watched these two videos back to back (In the order below). I could help but think that in the Ukraine-Russian war assessing blame is an idiots game because there will be absolutely no winners, only losers. The sooner we understand that fact the better our chances of survival as a species will be.

New Himars rockets being deployed by Ukraine and supplied by the USA.
https://img-9gag-fun.9cache.com/photo/ap9D0Xn_460svav1.mp4

https://img-9gag-fun.9cache.com/photo/aEqVzMn_460svvp9.webm

[ozmirage]

War is either piracy or defense against piracy.
How can you tell the difference?
If the winners keep the property of the losers.

[rgray222]

War is either piracy or defense against piracy.
How can you tell the difference?
If the winners keep the property of the losers.

Why would there be a need to tell the difference, one may have more spoils than the other but everyone who participates in war loses.

We need to look at war exactly the same way that we look at slavery today. If someone brings up slavery as a viable option for their workforce they would be rightly ostracized from all of society. If someone brings up the idea for war as a viable option to solving disputes they should be blackballed and shunned from all of society. If the human race survives it will eventually come to this conclusion.

[ozmirage]

War is either piracy or defense against piracy.
How can you tell the difference?
If the winners keep the property of the losers.

Why would there be a need to tell the difference, one may have more spoils than the other but everyone who participates in war loses.
That is no reason to tolerate evil. Pacifism in the face of piracy is unmerciful to their next victim.



We need to look at war exactly the same way that we look at slavery today. If someone brings up slavery as a viable option for their workforce they would be rightly ostracized from all of society. If someone brings up the idea for war as a viable option to solving disputes they should be blackballed and shunned from all of society. If the human race survives it will eventually come to this conclusion.Anyone in a socialist country is compelled to labor for the benefit of another. That's slavery.
Why aren't you protesting against socialism, too?

[Bill Ryan]

I'm reposting this (my earlier post #13 (https://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?119327-Is-War-Ever-Necessary-or-Justified&p=1513908&viewfull=1#post1513908)) to bump the valuable thread.

I'm fully aware that many good members (not only rgray222 (https://projectavalon.net/forum4/member.php?1043-rgray222) who started the thread) have grave and sincere concerns about the so-called 'morality of war'. I still fully believe that my post addresses this.

In the absence of any kind of fair and functioning global legal system, sometimes nations have to take things into their own hands.

— Just as you would have to do personally if you lived in the US Wild West, with no sheriff at hand and no-one to help you fend off the nightly cattle raiders. You'd have to take action yourself. Clearly, no-one's going to stop the cattle raiders apart from you.

It's simply your last resort after all negotiations, peace offers and agreements have broken irretrievably.

In one sentence, returning to our present-day world:

It's the totally failed, corrupt and US-dominated UN that's the problem.

In the current Russia-Ukraine war, Russia has no other options available to resolve the situation, despite having previously tried every other means available over the course of many years.

Here's what I posted (https://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?119327-Is-War-Ever-Necessary-or-Justified&p=1513908&viewfull=1#post1513908) earlier:

~~~
Thanks for the excellent thread. :thumbsup:

I'm only going to offer an analogy, because it might be helpful in thinking about this.

We almost always consider war as war between nations. But the exact parallel would be a war with your neighbor.

He keeps stealing your chickens, or moves his fence posts over the border into your own property to steal a little of the land you have available in your garden. Or maybe (as in the Trojan War!) he has an affair with your wife.

As a citizen, you should have legal recourse. And in a fair and just society, that would, or should, work. But in all of known human history, that's a very recent innovation.

We might assume that 40,000 years ago, if you were a Cro-Magnon, and a Neanderthal stole what you considered to be your property, you might get together a posse of your friends and family and go steal it back, beating him up in the process and maybe stealing some of his property in revenge. That's how things worked for eons.

Now, we have police and law courts — imperfect though they may be. But it's at least a theoretically good idea. Ask any Ancient Roman or Greek.

So the real problem on a global nation-state level is that there's no reliable, workable and functioning equivalent to address serious international conflicts. (I stress "reliable, workable and functioning".)

If there were, then no nation-state wars should be necessary. In a future (and ideal!) Star Trek world, we might imagine that all this had been ironed out and so war between fellow-humans had become a relic of the past.

[rgray222]

I have often thought that all the technological and medical advancements that result from wars are rather astonishing. I have also wondered if war is our choice or if it is preordained before we ever arrive on earth.

This is a very short video of Elon Musk saying that wishing for world peace may not be a good thing.

Icw3k4MYNiw

[Mark (Star Mariner)]

You could reasonably argue that war IS the sole imperative of the human race. Every year of recorded human history is stained with it. You'd think we'd learn our lesson by now.

But what if it isn't all our fault? What if we were pawns on a board being moved by invisible hands?

When you look at the history of war, invasion, subjugation and capitulation, you see the same old story play out -- from ancient Babylon, to the Roman Empire, to the Nazis of the twentieth century. Is it because the storyteller has remained the same?

It's highly probable that geopolitical posturing and the wars that result are the machinations of a group of hidden players, of powerful and ancient families (bloodlines) that have controlled the world, its wars, its politics, it economics, its information -- its everything, for hundreds, if not thousands of years.

A secret society, a 'deep state', a cartel of secret financiers... Maybe they're the ones pulling the strings; they orchestrate the wars, finance and arm them, and every nation, and every head of state is merely a puppet doing their bidding.

When you dig deep in this area and think deep, many strange dots line up. Like those unelected officials of the powerhouse conglomerates (think WEF, IMF, the WHO and many more). They meet in secret and answer to no one and have zero checks and balances. Like all that money, black rivers of it, that flow behind the scenes. They come from drugs, weapons, and human trafficking (think CIA, MI6, and Mossad). What are they really doing, how are they doing it, and who are they doing it for?

None of this new information, especially here on Avalon. But it's worth taking into account when questioning the whys and hows of war. Because people continue to say Biden this, Starmer that, Putin and Netanyahu the other...without taking into account the existence of the invisible players. Politicians don't and never really have pulled any significant global strings. They're just pawns on the board. The moves they make they are told to make. They don't have any other choice. And why not? Think skeletons in the closet (very dark, very nasty). You don't get a place on the board unless you have at least one. That's how the game is managed.

[grapevine]

No, I don't think it is.

The purpose of war is to take the resources of another country without paying for them (or other gains), regardless of the reasons given at the time. The “spoils” are never shared with the people who actually do the fighting, however, but are kept by the already powerful and rich elite who don’t do any of the fighting themselves but who send their serfs. Should they survive without injury they get a medal, and if they’re injured or disabled they get nothing and are discarded.

Strange business war . . .

[rgray222]

I think it may come down to free will. Just like the broad strokes of your life are predetermined (I believe) before you arrive on Earth, and so it is with war. In our human lifetime, there will be several wars as well as regional and local conflicts around the world. You may choose to participate in them by utilizing some type of weapon to kill people or you may choose to walk away and pretend that they are not happening. Participation also includes discussing war, choosing sides and writing about it in a public forum such as Avalon. Your free will allows you to put yourself on this war/peace spectrum wherever you choose. The war is going to happen no matter what anyone does, how you react to it will help shape the essence of your soul.

[arjunaloka_official]

I think Jesus answers your question in the Sermon on the Mount (Matthew 5, 38-39):

38 “You have heard that it was said, ‘Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.’
39 But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them the other cheek also.

Matthew 5, 39 is very difficult to understand and even more difficult to accept. My take is that it is a karmic statement. hence, if you are confronted with an evil person, this is a karmic effect of a karmic cause. if you fight a karmic effect with violence, it will get worse. you can try to negotiate peacefully, but violence would be the wrong choice. as said, ,this is very hard to accept. Jesus accepted it, did not fight evil with violence, which triggered cruxification - and, resurrection. most people will not accept cruxification but fight evil with evil - hence they will not gain eternal life (for the time being), but remain in the circle of life, samsara.

[Delight]

39 But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them the other cheek also.

If you look at this sentence again, what if the cheek you turn is the ass cheek which you turn as you walk away from evil?

One of the aspects of the participatory reality in which I seem to live is the issue of power. The realm in which I seem to live has WAR as a fundamental ideology. It is the ideology of a KING, a LORD who rules us or faceless "state" ruled by those who gain from war and we suffer all the consequences.

For instance, the creation of enemy justifies secrecy, violence, mental manipulation, coercion, murder, theft of resources, injury, LACK of responsibility (in war, anything goes with no repercussions). The state does not work for our welfare. WE serve the state with blood and guts and suffering unending. This is EVIL.

The thing is that in "times of war", people on the ground get to play out roles that PEOPLE WANT> patriotism, SERVICE to country and flag, the emotional connection to country and flag fighting enemy country and flag, the feeling one works for one's kin, opportunities for "brotherhood" with one's comrades in arms. One can even act out aggressions and hates. IMO conflict is different from WAR. Conflicts may be approached in so many ways.

Our preexisting traits that lead to courage, masculine protection of those in need, etc. GOOD and other traits of tribal insularity or belief one is "more worthy" make us ripe to be CRUELLY manipulated against all best interest. IMO we must see this horror repudiated FOREVER. SO, we must rout out the acceptance of war IN US. WE create war by participation.

IMO WAR is EVIL and we should turn the OTHER cheek. I had a poster... What if they gave a war and nobody came?

Frankly to the extent that people LOVE war, they will have it. However, it is EVIL and I turn my other cheek and refuse to applaud trappings of war and glorification of "POWER OVER IS SUPREME" and must be supported. The deaths, the devolution of civilization and shattering of well being are all collateral damage to the "over lords" who own war and US.

In my experience, war has only diminished life for us.

[rgray222]

39 But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them the other cheek also.

If you look at this sentence again, what if the cheek you turn is the ass cheek which you turn as you walk away from evil?

One of the aspects of the participatory reality in which I seem to live is the issue of power. The realm in which I seem to live has WAR as a fundamental ideology. It is the ideology of a KING, a LORD who rules us or faceless "state" ruled by those who gain from war and we suffer all the consequences.

For instance, the creation of enemy justifies secrecy, violence, mental manipulation, coercion, murder, theft of resources, injury, LACK of responsibility (in war, anything goes with no repercussions). The state does not work for our welfare. WE serve the state with blood and guts and suffering unending. This is EVIL.

The thing is that in "times of war", people on the ground get to play out roles that PEOPLE WANT> patriotism, SERVICE to country and flag, the emotional connection to country and flag fighting enemy country and flag, the feeling one works for one's kin, opportunities for "brotherhood" with one's comrades in arms. One can even act out aggressions and hates. IMO conflict is different from WAR. Conflicts may be approached in so many ways.

Our preexisting traits that lead to courage, masculine protection of those in need, etc. GOOD and other traits of tribal insularity or belief one is "more worthy" make us ripe to be CRUELLY manipulated against all best interest. IMO we must see this horror repudiated FOREVER. SO, we must rout out the acceptance of war IN US. WE create war by participation.

IMO WAR is EVIL and we should turn the OTHER cheek. I had a poster... What if they gave a war and nobody came?

Frankly to the extent that people LOVE war, they will have it. However, it is EVIL and I turn my other cheek and refuse to applaud trappings of war and glorification of "POWER OVER IS SUPREME" and must be supported. The deaths, the devolution of civilization and shattering of well being are all collateral damage to the "over lords" who own war and US.

In my experience, war has only diminished life for us.

Thanks for your very thoughtful short post, you have provided much to think about.

Just a few random thoughts.

The world's power structures memorialise war, allowing for an endless supply of young people to fight. Uncontrolled ego is dangerous enough but the untethered superego of the young fighting-age male is lethal. The superego reminds the person of their commitment to a patriotic lifestyle and instils feelings of guilt for non-participation in war. A patriotic lifestyle can be a healthy attribute but our leaders have found a way to channel patriotism into the death and destruction of war, and then memorialize it to enshrine its importance and usefulness.
All despots create enemies because it allows them to justify war. This is what Hitler did in 1939 before he invaded Poland. This is what Putin did in 2022 before he invaded Ukraine. This is also what Europe/USA did to taunt Putin into war.
Conflict is a precursor of war so in my mind, it is the same. Quite often the media uses the word conflict because it draws less attention and is not so threatening. But to those being maimed or being killed in the conflict it sure as hell feels like war.
The mainstream media's grip on how we view wars (conflict vs war) has just about come to an end. Once that happens conflict/war will start to be viewed in a much more realistic and horrific light. It is just another reason to hate media and this change can't happen soon enough.
War is a psychological mass phenomenon that diminishes our humanity. It is man-made and contrary to what we have been taught it has no cultural or historical value whatsoever. Violent behavior must never ever be normalized, we must memorialize math, science, health and altruism.


I posted this before but it seems appropriate here.

https://img-9gag-fun.9cache.com/photo/aGz3OOn_460svav1.mp4

[Delight]

Just a few random thoughts.

The world's power structures memorialise war, allowing for an endless supply of young people to fight. Uncontrolled ego is dangerous enough but the untethered superego of the young fighting-age male is lethal. The superego reminds the person of their commitment to a patriotic lifestyle and instils feelings of guilt for non-participation in war. A patriotic lifestyle can be a healthy attribute but our leaders have found a way to channel patriotism into the death and destruction of war, and then memorialize it to enshrine its importance and usefulness.
All despots create enemies because it allows them to justify war. This is what Hitler did in 1939 before he invaded Poland. This is what Putin did in 2022 before he invaded Ukraine. This is also what Europe/USA did to taunt Putin into war.
Conflict is a precursor of war so in my mind, it is the same. Quite often the media uses the word conflict because it draws less attention and is not so threatening. But to those being maimed or being killed in the conflict it sure as hell feels like war.
The mainstream media's grip on how we view wars (conflict vs war) has just about come to an end. Once that happens conflict/war will start to be viewed in a much more realistic and horrific light. It is just another reason to hate media and this change can't happen soon enough.
War is a psychological mass phenomenon that diminishes our humanity. It is man-made and contrary to what we have been taught it has no cultural or historical value whatsoever. Violent behavior must never ever be normalized, we must memorialize math, science, health and altruism.


The memorialization of war, the romanticism of war, the social demonization of "pacifism", the ongoing "crops" raised to satisfy the maw of the machine is against all reason or preservation of the world. There are the "old fat men" who would take all the young females to themselves. You see it in Islam, in Mormonism and subtly in western society where older men have the means and young men are expendable. IMO, no one should even be allowed to suggest others fight. Therefore we must demand NOW the "honest war" fought by the (old fat) men and witches who "think it is ever necessary or justified".

[rgray222]

There are the "old fat men" who would take all the young females to themselves. You see it in Islam, in Mormonism and subtly in western society where older men have the means and young men are expendable. IMO, no one should even be allowed to suggest others fight. Therefore we must demand NOW the "honest war" fought by the (old fat) men and witches who "think it is ever necessary or justified".

Delight this just proves your point.

WASHINGTON (AP) — President Joe Biden’s administration is urging Ukraine to quickly increase the size of its military by drafting more troops and revamping its mobilization laws to allow for the conscription of those as young as 18.
Source: Joesph Biden President of the US

I thoroughly enjoy what Donald Trump said to Liz Cheney about starting wars.

"She's a radical war hawk. Let's put her with a rifle standing there with nine barrels shooting at her, OK? Let's see how she feels about it—you know, when the guns are trained on her face." Referring to politicians who are inclined to favor U.S. military interventions, Trump added: "You know, they're all war hawks when they're sitting in Washington in a nice building, saying, 'Oh, gee, well, let's send, let's send 10,000 troops right into the mouth of the enemy.'"
Donald J. Trump President-Elect USA

This quote by Donald Trump holds a key to one of the major reasons for his victory. We know deep in our DNA that war should never be fought. We have not progressed far enough as a species to understand how to avert war with actions or words. So, in the meantime, we let our masters tell us that war is necessary, and we reluctantly believe them.

We gaze solemnly at the memorials they built to make us believe the lie that our young people died with dignity. We watch as they bring home our young in caskets draped with flags and escorted by soldiers in uniform. At some point, our reluctance to believe that war is necessary will turn to anger and that is when change is imminent.

[arjunaloka_official]

Just a few random thoughts.

The world's power structures memorialise war, allowing for an endless supply of young people to fight. Uncontrolled ego is dangerous enough but the untethered superego of the young fighting-age male is lethal. The superego reminds the person of their commitment to a patriotic lifestyle and instils feelings of guilt for non-participation in war. A patriotic lifestyle can be a healthy attribute but our leaders have found a way to channel patriotism into the death and destruction of war, and then memorialize it to enshrine its importance and usefulness.
All despots create enemies because it allows them to justify war. This is what Hitler did in 1939 before he invaded Poland. This is what Putin did in 2022 before he invaded Ukraine. This is also what Europe/USA did to taunt Putin into war.
Conflict is a precursor of war so in my mind, it is the same. Quite often the media uses the word conflict because it draws less attention and is not so threatening. But to those being maimed or being killed in the conflict it sure as hell feels like war.
The mainstream media's grip on how we view wars (conflict vs war) has just about come to an end. Once that happens conflict/war will start to be viewed in a much more realistic and horrific light. It is just another reason to hate media and this change can't happen soon enough.
War is a psychological mass phenomenon that diminishes our humanity. It is man-made and contrary to what we have been taught it has no cultural or historical value whatsoever. Violent behavior must never ever be normalized, we must memorialize math, science, health and altruism.


The memorialization of war, the romanticism of war, the social demonization of "pacifism", the ongoing "crops" raised to satisfy the maw of the machine is against all reason or preservation of the world. There are the "old fat men" who would take all the young females to themselves. You see it in Islam, in Mormonism and subtly in western society where older men have the means and young men are expendable. IMO, no one should even be allowed to suggest others fight. Therefore we must demand NOW the "honest war" fought by the (old fat) men and witches who "think it is ever necessary or justified".

you are right, we need to stop the willingness for war "in us".

[rgray222]

A wonderful depiction of those who rally people for war and those who fight the war.

ud-8IToj33I