How should members most helpfully share videos?

[Bill Ryan]

Dear Friends,

The mods are having an interesting discussion about the proliferation of videos posted on Avalon. We're trying to be as fair and wise as possible, and so I thought that a consultation might be helpful.

My own position (which I think many reading this may recognize) is that personally I'm careful about which (and how many) videos I post, making sure that


In most cases, I watch them myself fully first
If I've not watched them myself first, I always say so
I do my best to offer a summary of

how long they are
when a particularly interesting or relevant segment starts, so that viewers can go straight there and not waste time
I offer at least a short summary of why the video may be interesting
(in some cases) I write quite a detailed summary, often with my own comments added. That takes time, but I feel sure that it's appreciated by some.



My concern is this: :)


"I can't keep up any more." The world of Future Shock is already here (https://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?105362-I-can-t-keep-up-any-more.-The-world-of-Future-Shock-is-already-here)

So when I wake up in the morning and check the new forum posts, it's not always easy when I see there are 10, 20, 30 or maybe even more videos posted on various threads. There are MANY serious issues happening in the world right now, all at once, and I'm truly concerned about most of them. But I don't have time to watch 25 videos, or even 10, or most days even 5, unless they're short ones and I know they'll be worthwhile.

So what helps me personally is at last a brief summary, and a clear statement of the source (without having a click a link to find out). That helps me decide what to invest my time in.

And I've not even got a family or a full-time job. Those who do will have a far greater time management problem, and I suspect that they just mostly skip over everything, looking for text summary updates on the threads they're interested in.

But I'm only really aware of my own preferences, and those of the other mods (who largely agree with what I'm sharing here). So do please vote on the anonymous poll, where you can choose more than one option if you like.

All comments here are very very welcome, and I can easily add more voting categories if there are any useful ones which I've missed. (I suspect that there are! :) )

:grouphug:

[norman]

Quantity versus aspirational quality

I'm a listener, always have been, always will be. Text, to me, is the big tedium that depresses me the most when people splurge huge amounts of it on my screen. Some of those really big textual posts are impossible to get through. I tip my hat to those who endure them and give up so much of their day to them, I just can't live like that, it bombs my brain to a wasteland.

If I click on something of the multimedia variety, I can usually get a feel for it being in one of 3 main categories quickly. ( I can't do that anywhere near as well with textual content )

1) It's a Talk Jockey

2) It's a rare and valid intellectual

3) It's a Humane and 'spiritually' affirmative therapy I probably need at least one dose of a day. ( there are some rare talk jockies in that category too )

I can be in the mood for any of those but I'm almost completely disinterested in vacuous faithless Talk Jockies by now. For my taste, there's far too much of that. ( From what I can tell from my semi disinterested space, there is some of that with the textual content too ).

From my own beginning here, I regarded this forum as an on line aspirational community, not a fake reality AA(FR) meeting, not a news agency and not, even, a university library project.

[Inversion]

The time investment is a big issue as you stated. It's not practical to invest the whole day into watching videos, so the viewer must be selective. Documenting the points of interest within the video is very helpful. The poster does the initial investment of time and strips it down for the viewer with a summary and time stamps. I sometimes get lazy and don't want to do a complete breakdown or there's only a few bits of notable data.

[Casey Claar]

I am someone who takes in large collections of concepts well. When I come here I take in the basic concepts present in thread titles ( collectively ) and feel for where I might enter. I am aware now of where people are talking and where people are largely presenting video data. Roughly 80% of my attention is given to where people are dialoguing in depth. I appreciate video, but more-so when it is the direct work of someone present here on the board. This is because I am not just looking for more data to process, I am looking to connect with the sources of these data. It was Bill's work, for example, which brought me to this board, and it will be the direct work of those here which keep me here. It is the group I am principally interested in, not the data, the data is secondary. One more point: new active threads are good and fine and all, but there do not need to be copious amounts of them. This board is huge. I could never make my way wholly through it even if new threads stopped altogether right this second. Quality, every time over quantity. I appreciate when people occasionally bump old threads of such quality.

So--

Video to text : for me the ratio best rests at 80% text to 20% video.

In most cases the text should certainly be the focus.

Whole, well thought out paragraphs.

If it is less, most gets lost as noise.


Casey

[DeDukshyn]

The only issues I have with videos are long videos (more than a couple minutes) with no descriptions or timestamps. If one doesn't have the time to write a summary and add timestamps to the important parts, then I don't have time to watch your video.

Starting a thread with just an embedded or linked video and titled something like "I can't believe this!", and no text description should be just completely deleted by the mods IMHO. I find that lazy click-bait approach disrespectful.

Another issue are content reposts from facebook - usually images. The URL has a time limit of something like three days, so those are often useless. The meme thread is just full of those.

[RunningDeer]

This is a general list of what I often include:



Title of video. (It also helps to find back ups from other formats.)
Timestamps (https://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?66104-How-to-Tips-with-Visuals-for-Links-Quotes-Images-etc.&p=936944&viewfull=1#post936944) that link directly to the specific topic/place within it
Transcribed snippets
Summary provided by the content maker
A link to the content maker's account and date of the vid
Add screen shares/ images of video content
Written material from other sources
Menu of topics with time stamps
The length of the video
Post vids that run less than hour. (usually)
Transcribe portions of the video and at times add full transcripts
Youtube provides transcripts (https://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?66104-How-to-Tips-with-Visuals-for-Links-Quotes-Images-etc.&p=1040504&viewfull=1#post1040504) but they’ve changed their format so it takes lot of work to clean it up.



Example:


0:01
hello our friends evolutionary energy
0:03
Arts family good
0:06
good day good morning 6 15 a.m where we
0:10
are and we've been up for hours we sure
0:12
have it's been nothing but pure fun like
0:14
like Christmas morning kinda well yeah
0:17
okay you know it's definitely been a
0:21
change it's been a change you know first
0:23
morning get up and actually feel like

[Spiral]

I just don't have the time for vids anymore, (sorry, I just try to stay abreast of whats going on in the broadest way I can ) so I just scroll past, esp as most have absolutely no description of what they are about, which they really should have. Who is going to watch an hour or two long vid just so they can comment, or find out something that could be summed up in a paragraph ?

Time stamps for salient points are a must, I agree with that point.

The title & subject is important too because the subject could become important years down the line when the vid has long since been removed, this happens more & more often these days.

[Mike]

My 2 cents, which is more or less the same as Bill's:

1) the poster in most cases should have watched the video (or at least most of it)

2) the poster should indicate how long the video is (this one is important to me)

3) Leave a short summary, but also include your own thoughts. Watching someone engage with the information, on a personal level, is kinda contagious! It can change the entire energy of the post, and maybe the direction of a thread. Because now we're all interacting with each other, and not just reacting to a video. It personalizes it. It generates more energy and excitement, and a willingness to participate. It brings the whole thing to life. When I see a thread with mostly videos, it has a sort of lifelessness to it...even if I like the videos being presented!:)

[Kryztian]

I get the impression some people share videos that haven't watched, and just post them so others will watch them and give a synopsis of them.

Just some basic things you can tells us in a short synopsis:

Who made the video? This isn't always obvious from the video title and the graphic. Sometimes people will want to watch it because it is a familiar person. Or if they are someone who is generally not familiar to our community, say something about them.


What is the topic of the video? Again, not always obvious. Titles like "You Must Watch this or Your Head Will EXPLODE" don't really tell us anything on what it is about or make me want to watch it.


If we don't have time to watch the whole thing, is there a part we should watch? You might want to mention were to start watching.


If you are starting a new thread with the video post, make sure the title of the thread reflects the topic and has some keyword in it that show up in searches.


I would say a three sentence summary would be adequate. Three sentences in your own words, not from the video description. Your. Own. Words. You can do it. :muscle: If you are not able to do that, are you someone who should be telling the rest of us what to watch?

If you expect people to invest a lot of time and energy in watching the video, you can invest a little of your time in writing three sentences.

And if you have more than a little time and energy, why not bullet point some of the main points made in the video, that way you are helping not just the people who watch it, but the people who are not able to.

And yes. Mea culpa! I am a hypocrite and guilty of doing this too and not writing enough about what I post.

[araucaria]

I have always been dismayed at the general readiness to pass on other people’s information unfiltered. Propaganda was originally a concept of the Catholic church, with no negative connotation until some folk started objecting. I think there is still a lot of that going on today, with people not in the loop acting as echo chambers. Compare and contrast a squeaky clean conduit such as a waste pipe that uses water to clear effluent, with a filtering mechanism such as those used by gold seekers, which do the exact opposite. An echo chamber creates effective circulation in the order of evacuation of waste, but it takes some kind of an obstruction to filter out something positive like gold in mud; as well as an additional operation to separate the gold from the mud.


This suggests that posters of uncommented videos are obviously not themselves contributing to a discussion, just transporting it from A to B, and leaving the viewer to make the intellectual effort. Crafting a post that filters out something that you will not see anywhere else is extremely hard work, I can tell you. But that is precisely where things begin to happen. Sometimes the importance of what is being said will come into greater focus, or alternatively it will fade back into something not so useful, or even harmful. The critical filter is paramount, that is our input that distinguishes us from robots.


There is another downside to all this. Frequent video makers receive an inordinate amount of attention on a website that they may never even have heard of, possibly preventing members of that site from listening to each other and most of all thinking for themselves.

[Casey Claar]

3) Leave a short summary, but also include your own thoughts. Watching someone engage with the information, on a personal level, is kinda contagious! It can change the entire energy of the post, and maybe the direction of a thread. Because now we're all interacting with each other, and not just reacting to a video. It personalizes it. It generates more energy and excitement, and a willingness to participate. It brings the whole thing to life. When I see a thread with mostly videos, it has a sort of lifelessness to it...even if I like the videos being presented!:


Thank you! ( yes ).

[Eagle Eye]

Many videos of people promoting themselves, show their face for hours without any other content and in the end it would be something summarized in 5 min. I watch videos only in rare occasions and those without description are always skipped.

[JackMcThorn]

Having some ground rules for the forum will be sort of akin to herding cats. Bill has mentioned it over and over to provide some detail to videos and it seems like for naught.

There is plenty of good posts and plenty that you sort of learn to gloss over. There really is too much information.

On some videos, I use the 5 second skip feature if the person is rambling. It will skip longer segments if you hold the arrow key down. I find I am less interested in videos lately.

I scan the new posts for the threads that I have interest in. Then I mark the forum read. This really saves some time sorting through the new content. When I have extra time, I dig deeper.

Cheers to such a friendly forum.

[mojo]

Hi,
I am one that uses videos in posts and hope that we keep the current status quo. People will choose to watch or not and it would feel somewhat confined if I couldnt post without using one. Although understand why the mod team might be looking at this topic. It's also admirable that Bill would try and keep so up to date on the forum.

[pabranno]

I’ve noticed how many of the older threads had an amazing amount of interacting energy and insight, sharpening each other like iron sharpens iron’. I realize the days and times have changed. I recognize the value videos can have…also their power, one way or the other. But I miss the energy, the sharing and critical thinking we did together.
I’d like to ask a simple question that has bothered me…..should I thank a video post that I haven’t watched? Partly I want to thank the poster for the time and effort and thought. Partly I feel like a hypocrite…

[DeDukshyn]

I’ve noticed how many of the older threads had an amazing amount of interacting energy and insight, sharpening each other like iron sharpens iron’. I realize the days and times have changed. I recognize the value videos can have…also their power, one way or the other. But I miss the energy, the sharing and critical thinking we did together.
I’d like to ask a simple question that has bothered me…..should I thank a video post that I haven’t watched? Partly I want to thank the poster for the time and effort and thought. Partly I feel like a hypocrite…

I never thank videos I don't watch or at least skim or have watched previously. I can't really thank something I don't have at least some insight or appreciation on (even if its just the time and effort the poster put into the post) - that would be disingenuous.

[DaveToo]

I thank Bill for making this post (it's my kind of post) :)

When I click on video links (for current news items) I am often surprised at how old the source video is.
It might not be apparent at first, but I often go digging to find the source.

My request for those who post video links here would be:

1. Please watch all or most of the video before posting (why should we watch something you haven't watched?)
2. Give the video an appropriate title.
3. Give a summary of the video at the very top of the post, in your own words.
4. State who made the video (not who posted/re-posted it on the web).
5. State the date the video was made (the original). Not the date it was posted/re-posted.
6. State the overall reason you think the video is of value.

It's easy to post a video link here at Avalon.
It's much much harder to go through the steps I've outlined above.
But I think it will accomplish two things.
- It will make people think twice before they frivolously post a link.
- Avaloners will appreciate the time and effort you took to completely vet the video before posting it.


There would be exceptions to this rule.
One that I can think of off the top of my head is the "What Music Are You Listening to Now?" thread where
the custom now is to simply post a video link to a song that's liked, with nothing more than the link itself.

[Denise/Dizi]

You are not alone in your observations...

I love the suggestions above...

[ian33]

no time for endless videos that waffle on leaving you wondering if there is a point, where when...we have choice to watch or not
..its an endless theatre of deception and plain lies
they(t.p.t.b.) are constantly promoting threats which may come or not, interspersed with heroes/ saviors who are saving the day,, is that just more plot hinting at a happy ending, a flag to rally round and project the 'good guys' onto whoever they may be, if not just the next line of pawns with an altruistic makeover...
..i just dont know, granted im in a cynical phase. saturn sat on me leaving me saturnised:o
..i like the site i like the people, main thing for me...people are trying to inform and care, whatever our individual imperfections...discernment level seems high here...thanks

[Mark (Star Mariner)]

When time is a factor, as it often is for many of us, providing a detailed summary of a video or a bullet-point list of talking points is not straight forward. I know it would put me off. In most cases, realistically, you have to watch the video twice.

The first watch through is just you watching the video. And you have to watch it first to determine whether or not the video is worth sharing. Then you sit through it a second time taking notes, etc. For a longish video that could take you all afternoon. I don't expect most of us have time for that, and it isn't really all that necessary - although it is appreciated.

In my view, a simple description or summary will suffice. For the majority of the time that's all the poster had to go on when he/she chose to watch the video in the first place. Sometimes all we get is the title. But when we share that video it speaks to its merit. So treat it as an endorsement, even more so if the poster is someone you know/like/trust.

Another tip I sometimes go with: post a couple of the comments (that come with the video). They also serve as an endorsement.

Hope I'm not being too presumptuous - this is only a suggestion - I would look to post a video in the following format:


Title
A link to the channel
Video length
The embedded video
Timestamp(s) if relevant
Description/Comment


**
E.g:
How Gender Differences Lead To Different Outcomes for Men and Women
Jordan B. Peterson (https://www.youtube.com/c/JordanPetersonVideos)
19 mins

XfdV7AHIrNk

- A gripping watch as always. Dr Peterson discusses the cultural and societal implications of gender differences, and how it impacts us all.

Top Comment:
katty
2 months ago (edited)
As a woman who's more interested in things than most women, I find it's highly overrated, and feminists romanticize the idea of a woman having typically masculine traits. The reality is, when you're a woman who isn't interested in the same things women are typically interested in(i.e. people, relationships, and gossip), it makes it really difficult to generate a secure circle of female friends. I have lived a life of social insecurity, and social rejection from other females, due to the inability to read into the unspoken social cues set up by the women of my community.

[Gwin Ru]

...

... what bugs me the most are those obsessive-compulsive videos floods on trending threads and which videos do not even belong, or worse, are irrelevant, to the subject of the threads... threads get diluted and confusing to readers looking for answers to whatever questions or interest they may have.

... quality over quantity... you know... that "Signal-to-Noise" ratio.

[I am B]

It is nice that mods are concerned about this. I haven't been here for much but the signal-to-noise has indeed declined since i joined imho... Mostly because of videos, posted mostly by the same users.

I feel like something relevant too around the same lines is the embedding of Twits.

I post them as anyone else, but some threads have really been turned into a copy specific user's Twitter feeds, since they post preety much everything they get. (And the WW3 Ukraine post is proof of it)

The algorythm gets too deep in the minds of some Avalon users. Posting some is fine, but its important to give a explaination over it, maybe an opinion, and at least posting it all on the same post, instead of doing a different one for every twit they come across (sometimes following their own, or cutting other user's conversations).

I feel like, despite the lightning speed of the world and news right now, the specific threads should be tackled with thought out posts that put something on the table, not just "someone-said-that" or "look-at-thosecrazynews".

[Ernie Nemeth]

Often, I want to thank a post for a comment or other reason but won't because a video has been embedded and I have no time to watch it. I feel like I cannot thank a post unless I watch the video.

And there are far too many videos to watch them all, anyway. There aren't enough hours in a day for that.

I sometimes wonder why a video gets posted in the first place, when a sentence or two, in their own words, would have been sufficient and far more efficient. After all, this is a bulletin board site, where discussions are had in the form of the written word. That is its appeal, for me at least.

Another point is that videos are often deleted and exist no more so the link is useless. As a result, a post can suffer without that relevant video. This makes many threads difficult to read and to understand.

More importantly, I will not click on a link if nothing but a link is offered. A short summary has to outline the contents of the video in order for me to take the bait. There have been times that such blind links have taken me to material I don't want to be exposed to.

The amount of information has become a torrent in our lives, and paring down that info and consuming only the salient bits has become a form of art. Like an artist, staying true to one's art is often fraught with conflicts, contradictions and confusion - not to mention a certain degree of obsessive compulsion.

It is all too easy to develop a conceptual bias due to information overload and the efforts and means used to deal with that factual avalanche. That can easily lead to a myopic point of view and a slanted sharing of facts and videos to support what is essentially a dogmatic reiteration of a central concept.


Personally, I'm finding that less is often more. If the world is filled with clamoring voices, each with a unique point of view, then what is not said can be far more informative than all the things that are...

[araucaria]

There is another aspect to this issue, and that is the devices people use. For various reasons, I still work from a desktop, and I do understand that lengthy text posts may cause problems at the other end. Is that a sufficient reason to interrupt my thought processes and discover 140-character mode ? Definitely not ! There are some things that cannot be stated in less than say 150 characters, eg the attendees at an event. Or, the kama sutra (example off the top of my head) would not be complete. Coitus interruptus : how do I finish position 1 ? :) The medium is not the message, the message is a long battle every inch of the way. Suppose the answer to the universe and everything were not 42 but… 142 : on some level, the message would never get through. On another level, just post a video, problem solved.

[Delight]

What I am looking for is the RECENT information so I would like to know when the video was created. I listen to long conversations while doing other things. It is "fiddly" to me to write out a lot on the videos I share...sorry. If others share a video without explanation, I may check it out but I would like the title and whatever blurb goes along with the video.

[Mashika]

Specially the issue with videos is that, at least if hosted on youtube, they can go away at any moment, so, maybe some guidelines should be suggested or even enforced sometimes

1. Post the title, and possibly the description of the video, so that if it goes missing, it can be found somewhere else
2. Describe what the video is about in your own words, and/or why it matters in the current conversation context
3. If possible, provide an alternative link to something other than youtube
4. As a nice thing to do, but may not be possible at all. If a video got posted and it gets removed a day or hours later or so (short time since the post was made) and then a new version shows up or is reuploaded on another host, and you know this happened, please edit your post and add the new link

There's nothing worse than looking at a post and seeing a video link, clicking on it and then getting an error saying the video doesn't exist and not knowing what it was about or anything at all.

And this i think applies to images as well, i got burned very badly by it some time ago, when i got involved too much into the issue with anna-news getting banned from youtube and all their videos disappearing in less than one hour, then my entire account was gone too, including all images and videos. All posts made everywhere and which had embedded images or videos from my channel were suddenly broken and there were too many and no way to get the content back (i never made a backup)

This happens to a lot of people so i think in these times it would be best to at least track a second host if it exists. Most serious youtubers also host their videos on rumble or other platform and they post the links of the other hosts on the youtube video description, so it's easy to just copy the link and add it as a second source on the Avalon post

[RunningDeer]

I recently came to the realization that it’s not a good use of my time to transcribe portions of say a 20 minutes video that takes me 40-60 minutes to prepare. I plan to share vids, but I can’t promise to summarize in my own words in a three to seven sentence paragraph or add personal commentary. I do that in other posts. Besides, what I get out of a video may be different from what’s important to others.

I’ve had my fill of what’s out there. Most of it is a repeat of things from other cycles when I first came aboard Avalon. I get that it’s important to see what’s current. I’m at the point where now that I’ve prepared as best as I can, there’s nothing more I can do.

Life, as they say, is an inside job. I’ll be there for others in the tomorrows to come. How? I suspect, it'll happen like it always does. At the right time and in the best way for the individual, and that includes for me.

http://paula.avalonlibrary.net/smilies/noidea.gif




♡

[Mashika]

I am someone who takes in large collections of concepts well. When I come here I take in the basic concepts present in thread titles ( collectively ) and feel for where I might enter. I am aware now of where people are talking and where people are largely presenting video data. Roughly 80% of my attention is given to where people are dialoguing in depth. I appreciate video, but more-so when it is the direct work of someone present here on the board. This is because I am not just looking for more data to process, I am looking to connect with the sources of these data. It was Bill's work, for example, which brought me to this board, and it will be the direct work of those here which keep me here. It is the group I am principally interested in, not the data, the data is secondary. One more point: new active threads are good and fine and all, but there do not need to be copious amounts of them. This board is huge. I could never make my way wholly through it even if new threads stopped altogether right this second. Quality, every time over quantity. I appreciate when people occasionally bump old threads of such quality.

So--

Video to text : for me the ratio best rests at 80% text to 20% video.

In most cases the text should certainly be the focus.

Whole, well thought out paragraphs.

If it is less, most gets lost as noise.


Casey

I too, are more about reading and getting deep into it, than listening or watching a video with lots of distractions.

Usually end up 'floating' away to another universe and then realize that 30 minutes passed by and i don't even know what the person was talking about all that time, i was 'away' :) But if i find something to read that is interesting, i focus entirely on that and don't lose focus at all, because there's nothing else going on, it's the only thing in front of me, i get immersed completely on the ideas and words, and i can start visualizing whatever the person wrote about. On the videos case, i need the video to be very interesting or something i truly wanted to watch before i even clicked on play, if not, then my mind just wanders away to whatever.

Also some of the tricks used by youtubers made me desperate, like repeating some aspects of something already told before, but with a very slightly different angle, or as a "reminder", all with the intention of using up time and making the video longer so it can be monetized better. That kind of stuff is annoying and doesn't really help. This doesn't happen with text posts

[Mashika]

Maybe posting a video should be a multi-step process:

1. Click on the video button

2. A popup shows up "Enter the title, description and link of your video". << Next | Cancel >>
2.1 Click "Next" button

3. "Are you sure you want to post this video? << Yes | No >>
3.1 Click "Yes" button

4. "Did you write a good, clear and good quality description? << Yes | No >>
4.1 Click "Yes" button

5. "Are you lying about the description?" << Yes | No >>
5.1 Click "Yes" button

:bigsmile::ROFL::ninja:

[Tintin]

Maybe posting a video should be a multi-step process:

1. Click on the video button

2. A popup shows up "Enter the title, description and link of your video". << Next | Cancel >>
2.1 Click "Next" button

3. "Are you sure you want to post this video? << Yes | No >>
3.1 Click "Yes" button

4. "Did you write a good, clear and good quality description? << Yes | No >>
4.1 Click "Yes" button

5. "Are you lying about the description?" << Yes | No >>
5.1 Click "Yes" button

:bigsmile::ROFL::ninja:

:ROFL: Number 5, definitely my favourite :)

"Are you lying about the description?" << Yes | No >>
5.1 Click "No" button
5.2 Go back to 2

That's definitely a coding job, but may have potential :typing:

[Bill Ryan]

https://projectavalon.net/forum4/images/smilies/bump.gifhttps://projectavalon.net/forum4/images/smilies/bump.gifhttps://projectavalon.net/forum4/images/smilies/bump.gif

[Bill Ryan]

Bumping this thread again, as the mods feel it's becoming important once more.

A few issues that we feel some members may be becoming a little slack about:


Please actually watch the videos that you post.
That helps to guard against
— clickbait
— off-topic videos despite their title, and
— (simply!) videos that look promising but aren't actually very good or helpful.



If you've NOT yet watched a video that you post, please say so.
I always do this, and quite often when I do get to see what I've posted, I add an edit to make a comment or (if I've made a mistake!) I just delete it. (To delete a post, simply edit it to say "mods, please delete" and we can easily remote it completely.)



Please don't just blindly copy the thread title and add no other comment.
Quite often, even adding the video text doesn't help much. (It's a real giveaway if you copy "please like and share" into the post!)



Always ask yourself if posting the video helps to add value to the thread.
Quantity is NOT always quality.

~~~

Some members are rather more mindful about these points than others. The danger (for anyone!) is that if that person posts too many videos that just aren't relevant, are clickbait, or are simply unhelpful, then posts by that members will just grow to be skipped and ignored by others, the "Wolf, Wolf" principle applying.

:grouphug: