Could you give CPR if required?

[Journeyman]

Reading Pueblo 's cardiac (https://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?116806-Recent-Cardiac-Events-Amongst-Sports-People/page38) deaths in sports people's thread is a sobering experience. Whatever the cause is not the subject of this thread however, it struck me that some may not be familiar with what to do should someone in your vicinity require CPR?

I had to give this recently. It served as a reminder that however conversant one may be with the process, it's time well spent to refresh or update your knowledge.

NHS guidance https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/first-aid/cpr/

BHF detailed guide
https://www.bhf.org.uk/revivr

St Johns ambulance

BQNNOh8c8ks

These seemed like decent sources, but if others know of better, or can add some knowledge of their own please do so. :heart:

[Journeyman]

Forgive me if I 'bump' my own thread!

The highly scientific and indubitably representative poll indicated that a majority of people, trained or untrained, are not confident about their capacity to deliver CPR should the need arise. To be honest the poll really exists to get a debate going and the debate really would only service to highlight the online training available so that anyone who isn't confident can boost their knowledge now, whilst the pressure is off.

I can tell you that if the time comes you will be glad of any time invested in this.

So, if you vote, please post a comment below telling what you voted and why. That would help some more people to maybe watch a video or just refresh the training that they received donkey's years ago. :heart:

[grapevine]

I voted yes because as a first aider at work I've had training (several times as a UK First Aid Certificate lasts for 3 years). I wouldn't relish the opportunity, but if I was there then I'd do my best.

If available a defibrillator would be the best option and many workplaces have them as part of their Health & Safety procedures. Full instructions for use are given on each machine. There are currently 214 defibrillators situated across 150 London Underground stations, for instance, but if you put your post code into the website below, you can find the location of the nearest

https://www.defibfinder.uk/

[Pam]

I have actually done CPR about 15 times. The reason being, that I worked with dialysis patients as a nurse and cardiac arrest is a fairly regular occurrence. It was something I dreaded and so did other staff. I decided rather than dreading it, I would just be the one to do it. Each time I did it, I would review the experience and see how I could improve.

I actually brought back one lady twice.

What I learned is that the most important part is the chest compressions. Most likely you will break a rib and that is a very gross feeling and sound. The breathing aspect that they used to promote is really not the most important part. Just make sure the airway is clear and that the head is in position to breath. The chest compression are easier if you sort of use a full body momentum to perform them. It can be very effective. I lost one person, and he was in the late stages of cancer and it would have been a horrible cruelty to for him to live. Actually several were in that position but they wished to be kept alive at any cost. We also used the defibrillator, but if you don't have one, checking the carotid (neck) for pulse and the chest compressions can do wonders.

[Johnnycomelately]

I have actually done CPR about 15 times. The reason being, that I worked with dialysis patients as a nurse and cardiac arrest is a fairly regular occurrence. It was something I dreaded and so did other staff. I decided rather than dreading it, I would just be the one to do it. Each time I did it, I would review the experience and see how I could improve.

I actually brought back one lady twice.

What I learned is that the most important part is the chest compressions. Most likely you will break a rib and that is a very gross feeling and sound. The breathing aspect that they used to promote is really not the most important part. Just make sure the airway is clear and that the head is in position to breath. The chest compression are easier if you sort of use a full body momentum to perform them. It can be very effective. I lost one person, and he was in the late stages of cancer and it would have been a horrible cruelty to for him to live. Actually several were in that position but they wished to be kept alive at any cost. We also used the defibrillator, but if you don't have one, checking the carotid (neck) for pulse and the chest compressions can do wonders.

My highlight, in the quote. I have wondered about that, since seeing basically no aspiration done since the vaxx’d started dropping. I learned CPR in the Canadian oilfield, hammered home on multiple re-qualls.

Makes sense that the compressions would cause lung cycles too.

I voted #2, “yes, but not confident”, for that reason. Because “makes sense” doesn’t mean it is correct. I hope to hear confirmation or refutation of that “good sense”. Or at least a representation of why that is current practice.

Good thread. 👻♥️🌊

[Journeyman]

What I learned is that the most important part is the chest compressions. Most likely you will break a rib and that is a very gross feeling and sound. The breathing aspect that they used to promote is really not the most important part. Just make sure the airway is clear and that the head is in position to breathe. The chest compression are easier if you sort of use a full body momentum to perform them. It can be very effective.



I have actually done CPR about 15 times. The reason being, that I worked with dialysis patients as a nurse and cardiac arrest is a fairly regular occurrence. It was something I dreaded and so did other staff. I decided rather than dreading it, I would just be the one to do it. Each time I did it, I would review the experience and see how I could improve.

I actually brought back one lady twice.

My highlight, in the quote. I have wondered about that, since seeing basically no aspiration done since the vaxx’d started dropping. I learned CPR in the Canadian oilfield, hammered home on multiple re-qualls.

Makes sense that the compressions would cause lung cycles too.
👻♥️🌊

That's interesting.

I had 999 (UK emergency service tel no) on my phone whilst giving CPR. They recommended staying with the compressions rather than giving breath. That's not how I was taught and I've subsequently wondered if this advice was in some way compromised by the fear of covid. However, it does seem from reading around the subject that the effectiveness of the breath technique is considered marginal, especially in comparison to well delivered compressions.

[Paul D.]

I voted 'had training but not confident '.Not much to report really .I had training in my youth & have never needed to use it . I've refreshed what I learned .I had retained a lot over the years but the revisiting & updating was a good call.
Great idea Journeyman !

[Pam]

What I learned is that the most important part is the chest compressions. Most likely you will break a rib and that is a very gross feeling and sound. The breathing aspect that they used to promote is really not the most important part. Just make sure the airway is clear and that the head is in position to breath. The chest compression are easier if you sort of use a full body momentum to perform them. It can be very effective.


[QUOTE=Pam;1554786]I have actually done CPR about 15 times. The reason being, that I worked with dialysis patients as a nurse and cardiac arrest is a fairly regular occurrence. It was something I dreaded and so did other staff. I decided rather than dreading it, I would just be the one to do it. Each time I did it, I would review the experience and see how I could improve.

I actually brought back one lady twice.


My highlight, in the quote. I have wondered about that, since seeing basically no aspiration done since the vaxx’d started dropping. I learned CPR in the Canadian oilfield, hammered home on multiple re-qualls.

Makes sense that the compressions would cause lung cycles too.
👻♥️🌊

That's interesting.

I had 999 (UK emergency service tel no) on my phone whilst giving CPR. They recommended staying with the compressions rather than giving breath. That's not how I was taught and I've subsequently wondered if this advice was in some way compromised by the fear of covid. However, it does seem from reading around the subject that the effectiveness of the breath technique is considered marginal, especially in comparison to well delivered compressions.

If the airway is clear and you are able to do the chest compressions with enough intensity the breath portion takes care of itself through the process of blood circulation. It is better to give breaths, but in reality even if you have equipment actually getting the air into the lungs is dicey and in many cases seemed ineffective. Many times, I have seen the air using an ambu bag end up in the stomach which would actually be a detriment, in my opinion.

So in a situation where you might be the one doing cpr alone, I would check the pulse in the neck, make sure the air way is clear. Remove dentures or food and focus on the chest compressions. That is a realistic and practical approach. One person trying to do both would quickly be exhausted and in my opinion from observation it is the chest compressions that should be focused on. You are correct, you could do a number of compressions and then call emergency and resume chest compressions. When any sign of life, pulse is detected or the person revives you stop. That's what I have learned and I believe the most realistic approach.

[grapevine]

As a PS to my earlier post, the First Aid training introduction always included the message that "it's people who save lives, not doctors", meaning that when the necessity arises, you're very lucky if there's a doctor in the house and it's on the spot assistance that dictates the outcome. My view is that they should teach CPR and first aid at schools, along with swimming lessons (for instance), not to mention nutrition and how it relates to the human body in biology lessons.

Great post Journeyman . . .

[Journeyman]

One person trying to do both would quickly be exhausted and in my opinion from observation it is the chest compressions that should be focused on.

That's something I learned first hand. There were two of us alternating with each other. Obviously the adrenaline was surging, but even so, it's a very physically demanding process and it felt like an eternity before paramedics arrived. The next day I was utterly drained, very stiff, both physically and mentally exhausted.

[Brigantia]

I voted 'yes, but not confident' as it was over 20 years ago that I had training. It's interesting to read that the compressions are more important than the breathing (thanks, Pam) as if the need arose I would do it as trained, alternate compressions and breath.

Thinking on this further, I was taught a lot in first aid training and it would be good to refresh on all aspects. You just never know what's around the corner.

Our little village has a defibrillator, on the outside wall of the village hall which would be just a quick dash to get. I do hope though that I never have the need to use it.

[Journeyman]

I have actually done CPR about 15 times. The reason being, that I worked with dialysis patients as a nurse and cardiac arrest is a fairly regular occurrence. It was something I dreaded and so did other staff. I decided rather than dreading it, I would just be the one to do it. Each time I did it, I would review the experience and see how I could improve.

I actually brought back one lady twice.

What I learned is that the most important part is the chest compressions. Most likely you will break a rib and that is a very gross feeling and sound. The breathing aspect that they used to promote is really not the most important part. Just make sure the airway is clear and that the head is in position to breath. The chest compression are easier if you sort of use a full body momentum to perform them. It can be very effective. I lost one person, and he was in the late stages of cancer and it would have been a horrible cruelty to for him to live. Actually several were in that position but they wished to be kept alive at any cost. We also used the defibrillator, but if you don't have one, checking the carotid (neck) for pulse and the chest compressions can do wonders.


I voted yes because as a first aider at work I've had training (several times as a UK First Aid Certificate lasts for 3 years). I wouldn't relish the opportunity, but if I was there then I'd do my best.

If available a defibrillator would be the best option and many workplaces have them as part of their Health & Safety procedures. Full instructions for use are given on each machine. There are currently 214 defibrillators situated across 150 London Underground stations, for instance, but if you put your post code into the website below, you can find the location of the nearest

https://www.defibfinder.uk/

That's an excellent website, thank you!

It's worth looking and finding out where your nearest one is and also seeing which ones are available 24/7, because some are in premises that are only open for a certain time.

There's a video here from BHF on how to use a Defibrillator:

8A0kljQU48U

[Pam]

One person trying to do both would quickly be exhausted and in my opinion from observation it is the chest compressions that should be focused on.

That's something I learned first hand. There were two of us alternating with each other. Obviously the adrenaline was surging, but even so, it's a very physically demanding process and it felt like an eternity before paramedics arrived. The next day I was utterly drained, very stiff, both physically and mentally exhausted.

There is a mental drain that occurs and I always found it happened the next day. It's a very weird experience, particularly if you break their ribs, but it kept them alive.

[Bill Ryan]

This personal story is sort of related — about how one can rush to administer first aid without really knowing what one's doing at all. :facepalm:

Many years ago, when I was in my 20s, I was rock climbing in the English Lake District. About 30 or 40 feet to my right was another climber, on another route but on the same cliff face.

Suddenly he slipped and fell, and all his protection (a bunch of anchors in the rock that were meant to safeguard a fall) pulled loose. The poor guy bounced about 100 feet down the rock face and landed in a tree. I could see and hear he was still alive, but he surely must have been seriously hurt.

So I swung into action, abseiled (rappelled) down the cliff face, and arrived at the tree, where the man was as white as a sheet and groaning in pain, all tangled up in the branches which had saved him. I set to work improvising a pulley system, fastened a rope to him, and lowered him to the ground where I placed him in the rescue position.

Meanwhile, others had seen the accident, and had already called Mountain Rescue, who arrived on the scene just a few minutes after my improvised tree rescue.

The leader of the Mountain Rescue team was furious, and almost shouted at me how grossly careless and irresponsible I had been. My quiet sense of pride at how very quick and efficient I had been instantly evaporated. :)

Of course, I should never have moved him. It was exactly the same as when a well-meaning passer-by drags someone out of a car which has crashed, and immediately breaks their neck or back.

I took the life-lesson to heart, and soon after enrolled in a Mountain Rescue First Aid course myself where EXACTLY what best to do in such a situation is a core part of the training.

Fortunately, the climber survived, made a full recovery, and I didn't injure him further in my enthusiastic but clumsy attempts to help him. But both he and I may have been lucky.

:flower:

[Sue (Ayt)]

It is also really important, I think, to make sure it is a heart stoppage that is actually happening.

I am not a paramedic or anything, but when my husband had an aortic rupture, the first thing I thought was "heart attack", and wondered if I should attempt CPR. Luckily, a very good 911 operator directed me over the phone, and I had the presence of mind to focus and do exactly as directed.

I suspect that CPR could have been a disaster, as I can't imagine pumping on someone's chest who is bleeding out, and what that would do. But to my untrained eyes, I immediately jumped to the conclusion of "heart attack".

Maybe Pam, or someone else trained, could tell us more about how to distinguish what is happening, and the importance of doing that?