Could We Have A Discussion About Interdimensional Beings And The Hologram In Relation To Aliens?

[Star Wonder]

I am wondering what everyone thinks about the idea that the UFO/NHI are interdimensional according to the witness Grusch before the Congress yesterday. Do you agree with that theory? If so, would you please describe here what you believe. Also Grusch mentioned the idea of a hologram in his conversation. Do you believe this theory?

I am just trying to understand this concept, and would like to have some food for thought from Avalon. :ufo:

[shaberon]

Can you be more specific?

I disagree with "interdimensional", because I think there is one dimension, three.

A dimension means "a measurement", and the idea of additional dimensions appears to be String Theory, not something that anyone has actually measured.

Similarly, I don't think there is a second dimension, either. It occurs in Geometry, but there is no such thing as anything you can measure with it.

I would agree with "planes of existence", which have to do with consciousness, which is still basically going to be "three dimensional". And then yes, the physical world has no "solid matter" anywhere, it just has tightly-bound electrical forces which we can feel with our fingertips, but because it really has the nature of electricity and light, in the third dimension, this is a hologram.


Those are just axioms.

If the meaning was something else, I would be suspicious.

[Kuperkai]

Are you asking if the UFOs are traveling interdimensionally, or if the occupants are interdimensional beings?

I'm definitely in the camp of thinking that many UFO craft that are capable of interdimensional travel. The UFO fly-over of the US Capitol in 1952 was proof of this capability- the UFOs would disappear and then reappear elsewhere. How is that possible? Well, they create their own time-space bubble and then drop into hyper-space/sub-space (or whatever it is called) and then "pop-out" of hyperspace millions of miles or light years away from their point of origin.

As for the UFO occupants, I think they have tech that allows them to slide in and out of our dimension, but they ultimately inhabit a physical dimension just like ours. Are there beings capable of interdimensional travel (without tech)? Sure. Based on what we know, Bigfoot is capable of interdimensional travel, but they ultimately live in a real, physical dimensions just like us.

Are there purely interdimensional beings/entities, as in non-physical, capable of traveling interdimensionally? My guess is sure, why not. Consciousness is primary, and if our spirit can manifest a soul into a human meat suit, then why couldn't higher levels of consciousness manifest wherever & whenever they choose? Ultimately, this 3D reality is an illusion, a kind of holo-deck for spirit to manifest and learn. From what I can tell, we are very low in the hierarchy of sentient beings/spirit.

[Kuperkai]

Can you be more specific?

I disagree with "interdimensional", because I think there is one dimension, three.

A dimension means "a measurement", and the idea of additional dimensions appears to be String Theory, not something that anyone has actually measured.

Similarly, I don't think there is a second dimension, either. It occurs in Geometry, but there is no such thing as anything you can measure with it.

I would agree with "planes of existence", which have to do with consciousness, which is still basically going to be "three dimensional". And then yes, the physical world has no "solid matter" anywhere, it just has tightly-bound electrical forces which we can feel with our fingertips, but because it really has the nature of electricity and light, in the third dimension, this is a hologram.


@shaberon- What if a "dimension" is a space dominated by a set of frequencies, like a musical chord. Everything in a dimension manifests or builds from this unique set of frequencies. To move from one dimension to another you need to change your primary vibrational frequency/chord to match the destination chord/frequency?

Here is a video of what I would call an antigravitic, dimensional capable craft.
TR-3B launches warp engine over Paris, France- Jan 20, 2019 | whistLe bLow (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_GsEm25_Edk)

At the 46 seconds, the time/space engine is engaged and begins spooling up. At 56 seconds the entire craft is enveloped into a time/space bubble and 4 seconds later it is GONE. Now, this particular craft has rear vertical fins/stablizers which become visible around the 40 second mark. This looks like a terrestrial craft made by humans of the the TR variety (TR = Terrestrial Reconnaissance).

[Ade Morris]

Yes we are multidimensional ourselves, and exist in multiple simultaneously, past present and future. We live in a multiverse, and I have interacted with many non human races.

[shaberon]

@shaberon- What if a "dimension" is a space dominated by a set of frequencies, like a musical chord. Everything in a dimension manifests or builds from this unique set of frequencies. To move from one dimension to another you need to change your primary vibrational frequency/chord to match the destination chord/frequency?


Then I think it is the wrong word for it.

By "set of frequencies", I understand spectra and octaves, not geometrical series, as would be produced by a chord within an octave.

Another plane of existence compares to another spectrum that we are not able to perceive with physical senses. Dreams are like that.

For the purposes of manifestation, there is a parallel in the Platonic Solids with the Dodecahedron being given last:

Of the fifth Platonic solid, the dodecahedron, Plato obscurely remarked, "...the god used [it] for arranging the constellations on the whole heaven".


(or, i. e., twelve faces = Zodiac)

Euclid completely mathematically described the Platonic solids in the Elements, the last book (Book XIII) of which is devoted to their properties. Propositions 13–17 in Book XIII describe the construction of the tetrahedron, octahedron, cube, icosahedron, and dodecahedron in that order.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b8/Kepler_Tetrahedron_Fire.jpg

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/54/Kepler_Octahedron_Air.jpg

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/57/Kepler_Hexahedron_Earth.jpg

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/18/Kepler_Icosahedron_Water.jpg

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/03/Kepler_Dodecahedron_Universe.jpg


So that represents descent into the universe or material creation, whereas one can find the equivalency of the Icosahedron to this fairly standard symbol of the astral plane:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/7f/RWS_Tarot_18_Moon.jpg




Those go out of intuitive order. All the previous shapes can be made by regular triangles, i. e. a cube can be made from pairs of right triangles, but a Dodecahedron does not work like that.


The astral and physical planes being convertible according to the principles of Spherical Trigonometry:



There can be only five regular polyhedrons.


Let a sphere be described about a regular polyhedron; let perpendiculars
be drawn from the centre of the sphere on the faces of the polyhedron, and
produced to meet the surface of the sphere: then it is obvious from symmetry
that the points of intersection must be the angular points of another regular
polyhedron.

This may be verified. It will be found on examination that if S be the
number of solid angles, and F the number of faces of one regular polyhedron,
then another regular polyhedron exists which has S faces and F solid angles.



Describe a Sphere about an Icosahedron ; let perpendiculars be drawn from the centre of the Sphere on its faces and produced to meet the surface of the Sphere. Now, if the points of intersection be joined, a Dodecahedron is formed within the Sphere. By a similar process an Icosahedron may be constructed from a Dodecahedron.

If a dodecahedron and an icosahedron be described about a given sphere,
the sphere described about these polyhedrons will be the same.




And so I think it is almost exactly that, the ability to shift from one type of three-dimensional existence to another. In that sense, I could understand an astral being which, like Plato's deity, is able to mentally project itself into the physical world. Whatever it makes would be like faerie dust, i. e. once the willpower fades, the created form dissipates into potential energy.

Transporting a normal physical body seems to me that it would still be quite limited, i. e., I am very doubtful about crossing interstellar distances by mechanical technology. There might be physical beings, which on a heavy planet like Jupiter might resemble pancakes, or somewhere else they might be immobilized like trees, but I think it is far less likely that any of them could reasonably fly to other solar systems. By implication, then, the curiosity would bend more in the direction of, who lives in this solar system?

It would be more likely that Martians or Venusians could arrive by astral or physical means, and, the farther you go, the less likely and more difficult it would be.

[thepainterdoug]

my instincts, without reading all above is, like a radio, we tune in and out of perceived realities. so newtonian physics such as taking light years to come to earth, scoop up soil and head back home is absurd to me.
ice, water, and steam can all take place in the same covered pot.
just turn up the heat

[ExomatrixTV]

...https://cartomanziaone.it/wp-content/uploads/2021/05/reiki-1.jpg


Good question @Star Wonder (https://projectavalon.net/forum4/member.php?1112-Star-Wonder) :bowing:

The term "Hologram (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holography)" can be used from a solely technical "machine like" perspective ... but there are many who uses the term more as a metaphor (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metaphor) or concept (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concept) to describe something that is far more complex and goes much deeper ... So the use of that term does not really do justice to what really is going on.

Using labels that does not really represent nor doing justice to the complexity of (quantum?) Fractal Antennas (https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/21457072/) called DNA that is so complex that the real: "Origins of How Life Really Started (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V5EPymcWp-g)" question is never answered from a pure "technical" perspective nor "Darwinist (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darwinism)" approach ... We just use theories (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theory) full of (often false) assumptions, having a worldview that fits our pre-conceived believes & ideas.


But at the same time, certain labels like "Holograms" can better help comprehend mechanisms of multi-layered dimensions intertwined depending on from what angle you are "observing" it.

Consciousness & Awareness that is beyond the physical uses aspects of the physical to have a certain effect ...that is why I am reluctant to focus on "technical" terms & labels as the "only way" to better understand / comprehend perceived reality.

How much of our core "Consciousness & Awareness" is: Filtered? ... Compromised? ... Hijacked by another programming/conditioning? ... Muted? ... Distorted? ...


The more we depend on mechanistic (machinelike) worldviews, the less Human we become!


The, what I call: "Neutral Observer Awareness" within all of us does not judge, it is just aware of why you do what you do and just allows the endless "monkey mind chatter" doing its thing and hopefully the experiences becomes the teacher not the "endless brain chatter" ... After a while, you become (hopefully) wiser and realize that the answer was already there from the start, you just CHOSE not to use it! ... Which can have many causes, one of them is: "forgetting who you really are".

Human Bodies are an interface for Interdimensional Beings and there is a difference between "being alive here" (as a Multidimensional Soul) vs "becoming a (temporary) channel/conduit" vs "being (temporary) possessed".


Transhumanism (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transhumanism) is about very similar principles with one big difference: it is pure mechanistic & machinelike! Programmable, micromanaged from the A.I. Hive Mind (https://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?102409-A.I.-is-Progressing-Faster-Than-You-Think-) ... Much easier to control ... They call it: "Hooking up to the A.I. (https://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?102409-A.I.-is-Progressing-Faster-Than-You-Think-) cloud" like how we use Google Maps on a Smartphone to navigate and other search engines deciding how to proceed "the best way".

https://images.chesscomfiles.com/uploads/v1/user/27474914.f5b631e7.160x160o.f6c78faaf102.png (https://www.facebook.com/groups/stop5g)

cheers,
John Kuhles (https://www.facebook.com/groups/stop5g) aka 'ExomatrixTV'
July 28th, 2023 🦜🦋🌳

[Bill Ryan]

In his 20-minute interview of Steven Greer yesterday, Clayton Morris asked Greer the same question at 11:35.

I think Greer's reply was pretty much on the money, that (a) there's a confusion of ill-defined terms here, and (b) ALL visitors from other star systems will be traveling TRANSdimensionally (folding spacetime), because they can't make the journey in linear 3D spacetime: it'd just take too long.

And yes, Greer states, I think correctly, that some visitors will be here from other dimensions as well, where they live. It's worth watching as a partial answer to the question of the thread.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kZle-PYmoQE

[Sunny-side-up]

As far as I'm concerned, we have every possible kind of visitor coming and or living here on this globe.

[Michel Leclerc]

Thank you all.

My ideas about the topic are based on my own experience only.

I am aware of various (para)physical theories but they mostly are “only” what they are: hypotheses arrived at by thought and logic only – and hence, in the best of Popperian cases, exposing themselves to falsifying facts to come. That is called scientific evidence.

Testimonial evidence is what is upheld in a court of law, and ideally arises from the “fairness” consideration (aka “equity” as in Liberté Fraternité Équité (the latter being the corrected version of Égalité)). It is just fair to accept that for anybody what is true for him or her is true for him or her.

Hence, based on my experience of a “supernatural” kind, true for me is some kind of “interdimensionality” – but not in the usual sense. This usual sense is most of the time: “between dimensions”, like “interstellar” means “between stars”; It can however also mean “a dimension in between two of our dimensions”: in that case “aliens” would be denizens of dimension 1.5 for instance; a kind of fractal dimension.

But another meaning can be given to the term: that the “interdimension” is the product of two other dimensions, like the child is the “product” of a man and a woman.

(Allow me to add a double caveat here. The first is that our three dimensions are somewhat peculiar in that they are fully “translatable” (if that is the correct word), each dimension of a cube being able to be length, width and height according to the perspective taken, so that yes, Shaberon, to an extent one may consider that the whole 3-D quality of our reality is in itself just one dimension (using the term “dimension” metaphorically however). The second point is that time is not really a fourth dimension; I have been quite impressed by Dirk Meijer’s and Hans Geesink’s paper "Consciousness in the Universe is scale invariant and implies an event horizon of the human brain” (https://www.researchgate.net/publication/320267484_Consciousness_in_the_Universe_is_Scale_Invariant_and_Implies_an_Event_Horizon_of_the_Human _Brain): an extra dimension in the real sense would be Consciousness then but it would rather be like “3-D-ness” being taken as one dimension.)

I will for various reasons reduce the presentation of my experience to what is of relevance here.

Context: I was, before the experience started, in a somewhat altered state of consciousness produced by alternating exposures to heat and cold and specific yoga exercises: the result was a reduction of metabolism to an almost-standstill and awareness of a quasi disappearance of time [(!) disappearance of time as a dimension, or realisation that time is indeed not a dimension].
Experience: during a “brief” lapse of [no?-]time (5 seconds? 5 minutes?):
- within a normal indoor 3-D setting of maybe 10 by 10 meters of floor space,
- appearance of a "recognisably divine” entity as in a vision (translucid), floating in mid-air at a distance of 8 meters,
- inducing a change of the metrics, the distance between the "deity” and myself being reduced to 2 meters by shrinkage of the space, NOT by displacement of the "deity”,
- (subjectively feelings of awe, wonder, peace, “love”),
- the translucid entity touching me (having become translucid to myself) and by a simple translucid gesture “changing” me both “physically” (or rather metaphysically?) and symbolically (the gesture being “material” and “symbolical” at the same time),
- after this gesture, the reconfiguration of space snapping back to its original, “normal” configuration and simultaneously disappearance of any translucidity,
- various people in the immediate surroundings proving to have been completely unaware of what happened “to me”.

My understanding is that the event required not so much an intrusion of another dimension into our 3-D as a preparation on both sides: the quasi-nullification of time on my behalf and the desire of contact on the entity’s behalf. Communication was possible because both sides merged their dimensionalities, and this “merger” (which I have just qualified as “desire” on the ”divine” side and as “subjective” “love” on my, the human’s, side was in itself the message (the “also” symbolical gesture): Marshall McLuhan’s “the medium is the message” in the very specific sense that the “medium” was the birth of a dimensionality as a product of two pre-existing dimensionalities: an inter-dimensionality hued, toned, by desire/love.

Two more things.
I have come to feel that it was not different from many UFO testimonials, where the experiencer quite often reports that it “only happened to him/her”, others being unaware of it – or from such where the UFO does something physical/symbolical to the experiencer (also quite different from a body fluid harvesting procedure). And of course, this holds also true for hundreds of “religious” visions.
Two: the love/desire component is essential. Not only because it is the name of the dynamic between the two dimensionalities, but also because love’s essential mathematical symbolisation (or “force”?) is the Golden Mean, so that the interdimensionality realised could be conceptualised as being of a dimension Phi power zero, whereas lover and beloved are, in a “never-ending” interplay “switching sides”, Phi power minus 1 and Phi power 1 respectively – which is also the conceptualisation of mystical experience, of which the experience referred to was like a snapshot.

[Michel Leclerc]

...https://cartomanziaone.it/wp-content/uploads/2021/05/reiki-1.jpg


Good question @Star Wonder (https://projectavalon.net/forum4/member.php?1112-Star-Wonder) :bowing:

The term "Hologram (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holography)" can be used from a solely technical "machine like" perspective ... but there are many who uses the term more as a metaphor (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metaphor) or concept (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concept) to describe something that is far more complex and goes much deeper ... So the use of that term does not really do justice to what really is going on.

Using labels that does not really represent nor doing justice to the complexity of (quantum?) Fractal Antennas (https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/21457072/) called DNA that is so complex that the real: "Origins of How Life Really Started (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V5EPymcWp-g)" question is never answered from a pure "technical" perspective nor "Darwinist (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darwinism)" approach ... We just use theories (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theory) full of (often false) assumptions, having a worldview that fits our pre-conceived believes & ideas.


But at the same time, certain labels like "Holograms" can better help comprehend mechanisms of multi-layered dimensions intertwined depending on from what angle you are "observing" it.

Consciousness & Awareness that is beyond the physical uses aspects of the physical to have a certain effect ...that is why I am reluctant to focus on "technical" terms & labels as the "only way" to better understand / comprehend perceived reality.

How much of our core "Consciousness & Awareness" is: Filtered? ... Compromised? ... Hijacked by another programming/conditioning? ... Muted? ... Distorted? ... The more we depend on mechanistic (machinelike) worldviews, the less Human we become!

The, what I call: "Neutral Observer Awareness" within all of us does not judge, it is just aware of why you do what you do and just allows the endless "monkey mind chatter" doing its thing and hopefully the experiences becomes the teacher not the "endless brain chatter" ... After a while, you become (hopefully) wiser and realize that the answer was already there from the start, you just CHOSE not to use it! ... Which can have many causes, one of them is: "forgetting who you really are".

Human Bodies are an interface for Interdimensional Beings and there is a difference between "being alive here" (as a Multidimensional Soul) vs "becoming a (temporary) channel/conduit" vs "being (temporary) possessed".


Transhumanism (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transhumanism) is about the same principles with one difference: it is pure mechanistic & machinelike! Programmable, micromanaged from the A.I. Hive Mind (https://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?102409-A.I.-is-Progressing-Faster-Than-You-Think-) ... Much easier to control ... They call it: "Hooking up to the A.I. (https://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?102409-A.I.-is-Progressing-Faster-Than-You-Think-) cloud" like how we use Google Maps on a Smartphone to navigate and other search engines deciding how to proceed "the best way".

https://images.chesscomfiles.com/uploads/v1/user/27474914.f5b631e7.160x160o.f6c78faaf102.png (https://www.facebook.com/groups/stop5g)

cheers,
John Kuhles (https://www.facebook.com/groups/stop5g) aka 'ExomatrixTV'
July 28th, 2023 🦜🦋🌳

Amen, John.

[Blastolabs]

Humans are "inter dimensional" beings. (I'd be surprised if all life were not inter dimensional" )

We can obtain information from anywhere in the universe at any time, all while laying in bed with our eyes closed.

This is often called "remote viewing" but anyone who has spent a lot of time meditating will tell you that remote viewing is just the first small step on the path of human capabilities.

[ExomatrixTV]

1684938299318898688


much more insights here (https://projectavalon.net/forum4/Live Hearing on Unidentified Anomalous Phenomena 26 July 2023)

[Star Wonder]

WOW, AVALONIANS!!! I cannot begin to tell you all how helpful this is to my understanding of the terms. It will take me awhile to digest all of these posts. I hope others will add their views as well.

I asked the questions because they were terms that Grusch used in his interview, and I wanted to get a clearer picture of what he meant. First, it was not clear to me if he was referring to the aliens as being interdimensional or if he was referring to their spaceships as being that. If he was referring to the spaceships, I can assume that they are able to bend space and time and that they may be using worm holes or dark matter and other such stuff which I have a basic understanding. If he is referring to the aliens however, it would imply that their consciousness is on a higher spiritual level than our own. And maybe Grusch was referring to both ship and being, who knows! He used the term hologram in a similar fashion in that he did not define what he meant or how we are to interpret his use of the term. He seemed to imply that these are terms that are used within his department to describe what they were encountering.

All of this leads me to ask these question: Are we trapped into the semantics of language to describe what we have been observing? Since we have different understandings of the idea of interdimensional, how will we be able to define these events more thoroughly? Is there a hierarchy of these alien dimensions?

Grusch never mentioned that the UFO/NHI are from other planets when he described them. Are we to assume that they are only from other dimensions within our own planet? The language of the interview was very troubling to me because I had always assumed that the UFO conversation included other planets. Over many years, researchers have discussed interstellar or extraterrestial rather than these things being from our Earth.

As for my understanding of interdimensional, I believe that Albert Eisenstein may have trapped us into a prison when he defined our understanding of nature the way he did. He had to describe it this way for people to understand the world at that time, but it seems that now our minds have expanded and so must our theories about our universe. Carl Sagan said that to understand interdimensions think of a box within a box within a box and so on. That was pretty simple to understand for his time, but now we need deeper meaning and thoughts. Until we know more about the workings of all of this and until we can come to terms and define everything in a meaningful way that we can all relate to we just cannot get to the understanding that we need to deal with all of this. I agree that words are difficult to use when describing these events, but our whole understand of our lives is based on using labels. We define ourselves with names. We define our ideas with words based on concepts. That is why we need to have this conversation. Please keep it going!

StarWonder

[SilentFeathers]

In his 20-minute interview of Steven Greer yesterday, Clayton Morris asked Greer the same question at 11:35.

I think Greer's reply was pretty much on the money, that (a) there's a confusion of ill-defined terms here, and (b) ALL visitors from other star systems will be traveling TRANSdimensionally (folding spacetime), because they can't make the journey in linear 3D spacetime: it'd just take too long.

And yes, Greer states, I think correctly, that some visitors will be here from other dimensions as well, where they live. It's worth watching as a partial answer to the question of the thread.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kZle-PYmoQE

It's no accident Greer is all of a sudden now doing all these interviews and stealing the limelight so to speak....
The real concern is how the politicians/deep state are now going to weaponize this "ET development" against the masses. Greer touches on this danger towards the end of the clip. I'm surprised the deep state hasn't silenced him yet, hence, he must be part of the global scare event that they have planned for us....

[Mike Gorman]

Arthur M Young influences me strongly on this, his grasp of high-level mathematics was truly and genuinely superb - when Arthur was a young university student Princeton university had to bring in the top math wizard of the times to build a unique course for him to complete, based on Einstein's then new Relativity theory, he went through this and was critiquing Einstein's concepts- he later on proposed an entire revision of time/space, but of course this did not please the science dogmatists, the result is Arthur Young is seldom mentioned in science circles, with a grudging, mean spirited acknowledgement of his brilliant development of the very first commercially usable Helicopter only provided. Smudged out of history!

Anyway, I am more amenable with the 'Brane' concept, that is multiple universes aligned like membranes - extra dimensions are problematic, a dimension is a measurement of a physical property, we have 4, with Time being an aspect of Space. But really is it not more likely that non-terrestrial beings are visitors from other worlds? I don't have the absolute answer, perhaps we all have it wrong and this universe is just more complex and capable of extreme novelty in ways we simply haven't even considered yet?

[ExomatrixTV]

I'm surprised the deep state hasn't silenced him yet, hence, he must be part of the global scare event that they have planned for us....

"must" ?! ... Because that is your evidence??? .... I studied Dr. Steven Greers work & effort since 1990 onward 33 years ago his Project Starlight and used his CE5 Protocols successfully multiple times with friends since 1991 and studied his "Study of Extraterrestrial Intelligence (CSETI)" Journals and bought his books too ... Used his Project Starlight video material at our UFO Conference in Amsterdam, November 20, 1992


Dr. Greer helped me a lot in my own journey deep UFO research last 33 years ... So what evidence exactly (we can study) @SilentFeathers (https://projectavalon.net/forum4/member.php?11840-SilentFeathers) do you really have for your accusatory claim?

--o-O-o--

Study My 100% related Project Avalon Forum Thread That I Created:


When an Accusation like 'Controlled Opposition' loses its value! (https://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?117528-When-an-Accusation-like-Controlled-Opposition-loses-its-value-)

cheers,
John 🦜🦋🌳


New Disclosure Conference in D.C./ Natl' Press Conference/Steven Greer (https://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?121178-New-Disclosure-Conference-in-D.C.-Natl-Press-Conference-Steven-Greer)
Classified Alien Encounters Revealed (important Steven Greer interview) (https://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?111044-Classified-Alien-Encounters-Revealed--important-Steven-Greer-interview-)


Thread: Close Encounters of the Fifth Kind - The CE-5 Protocols (https://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?108957-Close-Encounters-of-the-Fifth-Kind-The-CE-5-Protocols)

My 2021 quote:

"Am truly happy that I am able to see beyond the flaws of Dr. Steven M. Greer (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steven_M._Greer) (and he has some, yes!) ... as I am eternal grateful & truly appreciate for what he did (for me) in late 1980s early 1990s as his Project Starlight (https://siriusdisclosure.com/cseti-papers/the-cseti-project-starlight-disclosure-strategy/) was known to me when I was organizing the first International UFO Conference called "UFO's and the New World Order" in Amsterdam November 20th, 1992 ... Back then I had my own Local Radio & TV shows called 'Exposure Radio' & 'Exposure TV' in Amsterdam promoting all of it connected to our 'Exposure Magazine' with over 4000 subscribers ...

I studied back then (almost 30 years ago) Steven Greers efforts when he was not "famous" ... I had over 450+ VHS Tapes dealing with UFO Research & Suppressed News (Conspiracy Research) ... One of those 400+ VHS tapes of (4 hours each) was couple interviews with Greer explaining his CE5 Protocols and some unedited successful CE5 UFO Encounters in Florida with a group of 40 people on the beach using lasers multiple cameras and big torchlights inter acting with 3 "potato shaped" orange UFOs forming slowly a big triangle AFTER the CE5 group had intelligent feedback like UFOs pulsating (boosting up) as a response. You can hear the crowd cheering the event.

In that same year I was on Dutch National TV (3+ million viewers) discussing crop-circle mystery NOT being "debunked" satisfactorily by "Doug Bower & Dave Chorley" who traveled all over the world appearing on national TV "explaining how they hoaxed it" ... The two elderly were also invited to The Netherlands, and I was face to face (in real life) with them preparing for the show (debate). All because I was already seen in several magazines, Dutch newspapers and multiple national radio-shows. All to explaining that Crop Circle Mystery is far from being "explained away" (their "debunking" attempt failed).

Not long thereafter me doing all of that, we invited Colin Andrews (https://www.colinandrews.net/Biography.html?) to be one of the speakers of our 1st International UFO Conference in Amsterdam. Colin Andrews showed the latest results of a successful CE5 initiative (including some skeptical journalists) in the UK (England) ... Where Colin Andrews temporary worked together with Steven Greer in 1992 ... Separate they shared their mutual CE5 Crop-circle success/experiences ... combine that with me having an exclusive for The Dutch visitors showing the best UFO video-material at the time as I too was one of the speakers. Colin came to me after my UFO presentation and asked how I got all the super new UFO footage's, some of it he had "no permission" to use yet. I told him that I have a vast international network of conspiracy researchers copying from VHS to VHS tapes sending through mail from over 20 countries. This was between 1990 and 1996 long before "The Internet" was used by the majority of common people. Due to me building an international research network between 1982 and 1990 using acoustic C64 modem and went on multiple BBS systems (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulletin_board_system). I was already used to sending mail to many many countries swapping C64 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Commodore_64_games_(A%E2%80%93M)) games.

Some of the international C64 crackers hacked the telephone system so that we could do live conference calls for free, and I was invited to be one of the tele-conference-lines ... via these interactions my network only grew faster! ... Part of that network helped me to go on (among others) "usenet" where I downloaded the William (Bill) Cooper (https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-features/william-cooper-conspiracy-theory-711469/) Report, Steven Greer material and so much more.

Keep in mind, this all happened long before "The World Wide Web" was fully operational. Some may not be able to imagine how that is https://projectavalon.net/forum4/images/smilies/wink_animated.gif as they have no experience like that.

So now you know am with Greer (indirectly) way, way back ... thanks to him, I have had my own (https://www.facebook.com/notes/2671629233090072/) 3 successful CE5 (https://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?110588-CE5-Contact-Has-Begun--new-Steven-Greer-documentary-) experiences all with multiple witnesses following his protocols.

And yes Greer is obvious arrogant and very "authoritative" type ... but that has zero effect on me ... I just focus what is useful for me what can help me to move on, and I did ... I never felt the need to join any "group think" mentality ever, so I do not feel pushed to have an "internal dialog" what to do about his flaws.

cheers,
John Kuhles 🦜🦋🌳
April 28th, 2021"

2021 quote:

"In it for the money" and "in it for the Truth" must not always be mutually exclusive.

"Exactly ... I co-organized several (sold out) big international UFO conferences and gave over 80 UFO lectures in 5 countries last 31 years ... I am used hearing some people saying "you do it for the money" rhetoric ... all (armchair critic's) who say that never ever organized the same for free https://projectavalon.net/forum4/images/smilies/wink_animated.gif and assume that is a "good thing" ... meanwhile judging people who are way more proactive they ever will be.

On top of that, nobody is forced to pay anything ... you want to help/support, or you don't ... and nobody is feeling bad if you chose to decline.

cheers,
John 🦜🦋🌳"

unquote

* source (https://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?114801-Steven-Greer-DISCLOSURE-2.0--25-April-2021-&p=1424738&viewfull=1#post1424738)

unquote


source (https://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?114801-Steven-Greer-DISCLOSURE-2.0--25-April-2021-&p=1424914&viewfull=1#post1424914)



Imagine A Real "Sanctuary Country" for Millions of Conspiracy/Suppressed News Researchers! (https://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?110914-Imagine-A-Real-Sanctuary-Country-for-Millions-of-Conspiracy-Researchers-)



🌐 “Sanctuary Country (https://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?110914-Imagine-A-Real-Sanctuary-Country-for-Millions-of-Conspiracy-Researchers-)” initiative/concept inspired due to my #CE5 UFO experience with Iris van Rooijen in 2013 & CE5 UFO Documentary of 2020 ...
See: tinyurl.com/CE5-JohnKuhles (https://www.facebook.com/notes/2671629233090072/)

[ExomatrixTV]

Inter-Dimensional BEINGS? UFO Hearing Sparks HOLOGRAPHIC THEORY Debate: Dr Avi Loeb Explains:

hLmnvu-mxiM
Professor of science Dr. Avi Loeb reacts to the holographic theory discussed in the House hearing on unidentified anomalous objects, or UAPs.


NOTICE HOW HE IGNORES SO MANY THINGS ... UFO "appearing out of nowhere: and disappearing" ... Remote Viewing Research ... etc. etc.
Making a false assumption that people who discuss New Physics do "not know" old physics.
Notice it is not really a balanced back and forth rebuttal ... no real debate ... just him having a monolog of assumptions.

cheers,
John 🦜🦋🌳

[shaberon]

All of this leads me to ask these question: Are we trapped into the semantics of language to describe what we have been observing? Since we have different understandings of the idea of interdimensional, how will we be able to define these events more thoroughly?


Yes, we have a gap in semantics.

Etymologically (https://carmentablog.com/what-is-the-etymology-of-dimension/):


The word dimension comes from the Latin word dimensionem, which means “a measuring.” The word dimension originally referred to the magnitude of something measured along a diameter. In other words, it was a way to describe how big something was.

The literal meaning of dimension is “the measurement of something in physical space.”

A dimension is not a universe. A universe is a collection of everything that exists, including all matter and energy, while a dimension is a an aspect or quality of something.


As something else (https://english.stackexchange.com/questions/536962/when-and-how-did-the-word-dimension-take-on-the-popular-connotation-of-parall), there were vague shades of meaning around 1900, crystallized by:

Dimension was first used with the sense "parallel universe" in science-fiction by H. G. Wells...


Followed by String Theory, which is connected to:

There is currently no experimental evidence for the existence of the 11th dimension, and it remains purely a theory at this point.





As for my understanding of interdimensional, I believe that Albert Eisenstein may have trapped us into a prison when he defined our understanding of nature the way he did.


He didn't--he proposed a theory that he said might be wrong.

Surprisingly, it was favored by the church. The sublime marriage of god to science occurs in the Big Bang. So the theory gained the support of vested interests, who are never wrong. The Pope is infallible. He said so!

There are multiple arguments within the scope of Relativity.

Without getting too much into that, one of the caveats is that time is quantized, on the order of 10^34 seconds. So it is just a series of static states. At each instant the entire cosmos is created and destroyed. And anyone will notice that the apparent changing of states or positions from moment to moment is not a fixed rate, instead, consciousness will speed it up, slow it down, or remove it.


If you bend spacetime with wormholes and dark matter, it re-ifies Relativity and deifies the Pope. My instincts won't let me do that. I will vomit on the monitor.

That being said, yes, relativistic effects are measurable, however the theory as a whole may be incomplete or may not be the sole law that regulates everything. Especially, once you have a dream, or some kind of astral experience, it is impossible to believe that the material plane is ultimately real anyway.

All of the Indian myths are based in the Planetary Regents being present on earth. So it is very clear that it is mentally or astrally possible to move from one world to another. This is more like Astrology, which was divinized from Plato to Newton. Isaac Newton was definitely not a materialist. And we can easily show a trend of essentially hijacking *some* of Newton's work to make classical mechanics, followed by similar reductions such as Maxwell's Quarternions to Four Fundamental Forces, up to Einstein, all taking a drubbing from the Pope. Almost everything in the current scholastic view comes from about six people in the 1600s, the scientific aspect of which has been heavily molded. Then we are told consciousness is a secondary, random effect of the mechanistic actions of electro-chemical soup.


Cosmology is perhaps a different question than if there actually are biological organisms not from earth. If such entities are present, they are there regardless of one's understanding of all possible physical laws.

[Michel Leclerc]

(...)

All of this leads me to ask these question: Are we trapped into the semantics of language to describe what we have been observing? Since we have different understandings of the idea of interdimensional, how will we be able to define these events more thoroughly? Is there a hierarchy of these alien dimensions?

(...)

(...) but now we need deeper meaning and thoughts. Until we know more about the workings of all of this and until we can come to terms and define everything in a meaningful way that we can all relate to we just cannot get to the understanding that we need to deal with all of this. I agree that words are difficult to use when describing these events, but our whole understand of our lives is based on using labels. We define ourselves with names. We define our ideas with words based on concepts. That is why we need to have this conversation. Please keep it going!

StarWonder

Thank you StarWonder. Maybe we are not necessarily “trapped” as you say, but we will be if we are not strongly aware of the nature of language and of how it may help us communicate or hamper us doing so. I especially like your “now we need deeper meaning and thoughts“. Amen.

Following that line of thinking: it is not sufficient to ascertain the labels or words we use -- it is essential that we purify meaning and thinking. “Meaning”, as I have defended elsewhere, in both meanings of the word “meaning” at the same time: the meaning of what we say and what we mean by saying it. May I refer to the racism and gender threads. Discussions about what racism is and what gender is tend to pick up the dictionary too soon, trying to orient discussion on the basis of “what the dictionary says it means”. I think that what is more relevant is what we mean ourselves when we use the word, or concept, of racism, or gender. And such “what we mean ourselves” has been decisively and continuously been impinged upon and determined by our personal, “idiosyncratic”, life's experience. Hence having a real discussion about racism or gender would imply, in my view, sitting together talking about our experience holding hands. The latter condition as a safeguard against allowing language to wrest us from communication, to lead us astray. Holding hands, or caressing hands, as a way of verifying that we are in full sincerity and want to keep it that way as long as we are referring to our experience in order to give the meaning of what we mean to what we say.

This is, I feel, also necessary for words, concepts, labels such as “interdimensionality”. Or “hologram”. Or “fractalness”. They are metaphors. If we think about the use of metaphor in poetry, we can see how there metaphor allows us to free us from petrified conceptions of things (“petrified" as: not fully inhabited by our meaning). They are metaphors because they are not yet scientific theories or hypotheses. They are in fact mundane uses of not-yet-fully-though-through scientific concepts. The question then arises whether they are “freeing metaphors” at all. Are they not rather “words of power” or “mantras” which somehow force us to think along those lines – the lines being – yes, indeed – what a dominant discourse (the one we are witnessing in so many fields and actively promoted by tyrannical Powers) wants us to use when thinking? (In which case yes, the hearings may be a psychological operation which the main characters may even believe themselves.)

What I have tried to do with my reference to my experience is hint at the fact that I can only give a meaning to “interdimensionality” by relating it to my experience, and hence give it the meaning of what I mean. Otherwise the word does not have a real “meaning” to me. The second thing is introducing a key element of my experience, which might be simply identified as “mutual love” (as in the love of lovers or of animal and animal “owner”) – which is one of the quite few (in actual fact) "concepts" or "words" humans can agree on. (And why is that so? Because “love” can immediately be verified by an “act of love” and by the “recognition” (to use William Burroughs‘ term) of the commonality in two persons.)

Is this relevant to this topic? Yes. I may refer to a number of reports John Mack wrote about abductees and who clearly stated that this was the “fundamental” of the “contact” — or to Whitley Strieber’s work, who describes in essence an, admittedly difficult, love relationship. Or typical religious visions as related by people who witness appearances of the Virgin Mary. Or the relationship the angel(s) appearing (or rather being channeled) to Gitta Mallasz and her friends had with them. Or the vast number of mystical love relationships between the mystic and a divine being – in arguably all human civilisations / cultures on this earth.

Hence: instead of giving in to the trend that tries to explain “supernatural” contact experiences by means of “extended nuts and bolts theories” (as in: the appearances in Fatima.. that was “just” a Ufo), would it not be wiser to explain “interdimensional ufo contact” by means of mystical experiences? Especially because mystical contact – communication with "higher" (i.e. “non-3-D”) beings – may be within our reach if we “open up“ sufficiently to experiential adventure in the spirit-soul-body triad – so that we can understand what we mean when we talk about it.. rather than having to rely on exchanges using labels that we are unable to define because we are lacking the human experience to which we would refer them?

[SilentFeathers]

I'm surprised the deep state hasn't silenced him yet, hence, he must be part of the global scare event that they have planned for us....

"must" ?! ... Because that is your evidence??? .... I studied Dr. Steven Greers work & effort since 1990 onward 33 years ago his Project Starlight and used his CE5 Protocols successfully multiple times with friends since 1991 and studied his "Study of Extraterrestrial Intelligence (CSETI)" Journals and bought his books too ... Used his Project Starlight video material at our UFO Conference in Amsterdam, November 20, 1992


Dr. Greer helped me a lot in my own journey deep UFO research last 33 years ... So what evidence exactly (we can study) @SilentFeathers (https://projectavalon.net/forum4/member.php?11840-SilentFeathers) do you really have for your accusatory claim?

--o-O-o--


I was voicing my opinion through observation and common sense.
What we've seen in recent times, especially over the last 5 years or so, is that almost everyone publicly speaking about "main stream topics" that go against the deep state/globalist narrative and agenda are labeled a conspiracy theorists, censored, cancelled, or even personally/publicly destroyed.
Greer seems to be getting a pass and is being allowed to basically walk whistleblowers right into the hornets nest so to speak.
I have a right to my opinion and I see a huge red flag about this whole development concerning ET's and UFO's......and even Dr. Greer and his part in all of this.

[ExomatrixTV]

...

I have absolutely no issue with opinions (even if they are accusatory) that are allowed to be challenged, especially when strong key-words are used like: someone "must" be this or that ...

But I do have issues with people getting along "playing nice" knowing it is not right and leave certain accusatory claims unchallenged!

How many "opinions" turned out to be excuses not to investigate what someone had/has to offer that is BEYOND mass conditioning for or against? And if more and more people behave like that 24/7, we will have a huge problem eventually.


Not all "common sense" is common sense, but much more prejudice of an assumed "logical mindset" shared within like-minded people in echo-chambers.

cheers,
John 🦜🦋🌳

[Journeyman]

I am wondering what everyone thinks about the idea that the UFO/NHI are interdimensional according to the witness Grusch before the Congress yesterday. Do you agree with that theory? If so, would you please describe here what you believe. Also Grusch mentioned the idea of a hologram in his conversation. Do you believe this theory?

I am just trying to understand this concept, and would like to have some food for thought from Avalon. :ufo:

There's an interesting aspect to this question which, as with much of the UFO phenomenon also intersects with significant occult practitioners. There's quite a good background by John Steadman available here:

https://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/vida_alien/esp_vida_alien_150.htm


The great 20th century magickal practitioner Aleister Crowley, in his own experiments, first postulated this view:

he saw aliens, in fact, as humanity's best chance for solving the problems of life, death, and achieving perfection.

Similarly, Crowley's disciple and protégé, Kenneth Grant, head of the UK branch of the OTO for many years and author of the monumental 9-volume Typhonian Trilogies series, also made the argument that aliens are trans-dimensional.



See also Hubbard, Parsons etc. Look at the UFO question for long enough and you'll find the secret societies, intel operatives and maybe the adherents of the mystery religions... The Collins elite thread here on Avalon may also be worth a look?

[Star Wonder]

Very well said, Michel! Mystical experience is superior to words.

One of the problems in the explanation at the hearing is that Grusch had not experienced first hand what he was trying to define. And others in his department likely had not either, and those people were relaying information to him using the same terminology. So the language is limiting our understanding of what is really going on. I feel that because of this many people are not even listening to the message and don't care. It seems cold and unfeeling and distant to even try to understand these events.

So, what do you all believe? Are the aliens (NHI) interdimensional? Are they from our future? Are they here to warn us about something? Are they here to harm us? Are they friendly? Where do you think they are from?

[anasazi]

For all the trillions that have disappeared into black ops programs worldwide, the least these Congressional hearings could do was catch up to "The Secret of Skinwalker Ranch"! I do believe that a 4th dimension is being used by the U.S. and the grey alien species to pop in and out of the third. The sheer amount of technology and money required is enough evidence for me to reason that none of this has anything to do with higher level interdimensional beings, however. I love visiting old petroglyphs in the southwest that show a wide array of beings interacting with mankind, and have had enough spiritual experiences of my own to understand that one does not need to cover the sky with rare earth metals in order to operate in other dimensions. While I do appreciate the hearings to a degree, I am hesitant to adopt any belief from them. I live half a day's drive from Roswell, and realize that something did happen there. I also realize that these interactions have occurred many times with several governments--but I am not convinced that these are the beings that I want to encounter or interact with. When I was younger, I did not understand the differences between a civilization like the Pleiades and these younger, possibly programmed, biological entities. Today I do, but it isn't through through hearings, logos defining dimensions, or technology. Most of what I have settled into believing is through meditation, honestly. Some of it has been achieved through energy work such as Reiki. I realized the other day when these Congressional hearings began again that there would never be any 'whistleblowers' from the spiritual realm. It would all be third dimensional theater, coinciding with another multi-trillion dollar defense bill re-authorization. Do they really want to know the truth, or do they want to justify more waste and propaganda? The answer for me is obvious. These craft that are being collected and reverse engineered may help the defense industry, but I am not convinced that they help humanity as a whole. On the other hand, there are lots of souls here on this plane today that are connected to higher level beings who do not need ships to come here. One of the best photos I ever took was of my spouse staring up into a huge orb that had descended to him down to his shoulders at Chaco Canyon. This was a place with a vortex that was misused by people in the past, and even though the land needs to rest now, I was able to receive confirmation that higher dimensional beings were with us on that day. I deeply appreciate these experiences, and they are more of a confirmation to me than any Congressional hearing could ever be. There are so many sites around the world that depict mankind's interaction with beings from different star systems, but I get a very different impression from them than places like Roswell and White Sands. In fact, my spouse and I cannot travel through that area fast enough. It feels like a negative vortex covered in a grid designed for surveillance and control, not a place for exaltation in any way. So basically, what I infer is that the word 'interdimensional' was introduced--a partial truth for a trillion, Alex. Blessings to us all.

[Michel Leclerc]

Alas, dear Star wonder, you will find below my quite non-committal answers.

Are the aliens (NHI) interdimensional?
As said before, I do not know what the word means. Many interpretations are possible. I have a personal interpretation: qualifying the interaction I experienced – not easily generalisable. One also finds “trans dimensional”. I would love it when the users of these qualifiers at least tried to explain what they mean. And: the concept of dimension is not even clear. Dimensions are width, depth, height, but when we turn a cube 90°, these three dimensions exchange places. So are the three dimensions not really just one dimension: “space”, i.e. Einsteinian 3-D?

Are they from our future?
How would I know? If we are able to stop (“nullify”) time, what does “future” mean? Haven’t we got – all of us – quite idiosyncratic, personal meanings for the word/concept “future”? And “past” for that matter? Are “past” and “future” to a person who would, for specific but eminently personal grounds wish to retrieve past life memories and upon these recollections “project/plan future lives”, not essentially different from what they are for a person who would rather, for specific but eminently personal grounds, wish to retrieve memories from this life only and leave projects for next lives to the post-death “future”?

Are they here to warn us about something?
How would I be able to guess the prioritisation of their objectives? What does “objective”, “goal” even mean to them? Even if I were somehow to understand intellectually their "goals” (theology does speculate more or less compellingly about God’s or the Gods’ goals), how could I "understand” them personally, idiosyncratically? (Unless maybe through the nature of the process called love?).

Are they here to harm us? Are they friendly?
“Harm”, “friendly”? These words have "empathisable” meaning in this “space” world. But “outside” of it? In the "dimensionality” of “beings-in-vision”? If, as our lovers, they are “like” “good parents” or “genuine friends” – what is the nature of their sweetness and toughness? How are they dialectically related? Answer: how would I know? I have just one experience giving me (!) reasons for (a lot of) hope –

Where do you think they are from?
“Think”?
“From”?

[shaberon]

...maybe the adherents of the mystery religions...


Well, after disputing "Dimension" as science fiction, I figured someone might object to "plane" as a nonsensical two-dimensional version of the same thing.

Instead, let me explain. This usage of "plane" as a "world or universe" comes from Proclus. In Greek, plane is "platos", meaning "breadth"...which is the nickname, Plato, of whom he was a follower.

In the New Testament, which is Greek, the word "god" is a translation of "Theou", which anyone will recognize, at least I hope so.

Try to figure out what that means or where it came from.

...

...

Someone kind of "covered it up", didn't they?

It is in the real religion of Jerusalem, Orthodoxy (http://www.sourozh.org/orthodox-faith-texts/the-word-god.html):

According to Plato, the Greek word for God, Theos , originates from the verb theein , meaning 'to run'.


Oh. They got it from the guy that "plane" is the direct descendant of.

This would have been obvious to everyone, until, around the 600s when the Greek sphere of learning was finally sanitized from the west.

Plato's (https://altexploit.wordpress.com/2017/05/10/harmonies-of-the-orphic-mystery-emanation-of-music/) Cratylus terms the planets theoi, from theein meaning “to run, to move.”


Anyone's "faith in god" is a faith in the planets.

The abode called Heaven is Uranus, and the sought-for "riches of god" is Pluto, neither one of which were planets, because nobody could see them. But those are Greek deities.

The fellow re-named in Greek as Jesus only ever mentioned "El", the Sun, which is a planet in this sense. In Greek, this would be "Apollo", which is of course a "mystery religion", which is of course similar to almost all of the other countries that have written records.

As the Protestants say, thanks for holding on to these scriptures, so we can tell you what they mean.

That's a tough one to wriggle out of, if the New Testament means anything to you.

"Platos" is in it a few times, in the mundane sense, such as "breadth of a country". However, one of the Epistles of Paul, where he is trying to teach the importance for love, is so you will know "the breadth, length, height, and depth", in that order. Not "of" something. Just as if it were space itself.

The church likes to dial it down and say "to run" is just prime motion, but, their source is Plato, so it is a giveaway.

If you go in a circle, and say, well, to the Greeks, "theou" means "god". That's not physically possible.

You might say there is a singular and plural.

When Jesus says "El", it is the singular of the androgynous plural "Elohim" which is at the beginning of Genesis. Jesus was initiated by John the Baptist. Maybe by others, too, we don't know where he went for most of his life, but most sources agree he was baptized. The teaching of John is only partly in that the Sun is like the chief of the planets. The Sun is just the reflection of the true god of light on the cosmic plane. It, in turn, has a second deity, i. e. its rays which affect the weather and can affect man for better or worse, to an extent dependent on his own decisions. That is why there would be Helios, the Sun itself, and Apollo, or Order, or i. e. the two embody the basic harmony of nature, and the theoretical social order of man.

So what is given in Germanic and English "god" means something more like the Solar System. It partly involves "predictive astrology", but also that the planets govern man at every moment. So they are more like frequencies, i. e. longer and shorter orbits, so you have Apollo and Orpheus with a Seven-String Lyre, and Music of the Spheres.

To borrow a turn of phrase, it is a bit less like believing what you see, and more like understanding what you hear.

That is why I would agree there are other planes of existence, and intelligences of other planets.

Hebrew astronomy only recognized two planets until the Babylonian captivity. Even in the Book of Enoch (https://gymarkiv.sdu.dk/MFM/kdvs/mfm%2040-49/MFM%2040-10.pdf):


Neither constellations nor the zodiac
nor planets are ever mentioned.


In that sense, to add something from John, Plato, or Babylon would be an infusion to the culture. At that point, then a Menorah represents the Solar System.

The expressions of planets and planes is something like seven kinds of sounds which can be heard in each of seven kinds of light, with what we call the physical universe being the most tightly-bound form of light.

Moreover, seven kinds of light are occult or "hidden" because they are:

Latin color, from Old Latin colos, from Proto-Indo-European *ḱel- (“to hide, conceal”)

[Journeyman]

...maybe the adherents of the mystery religions...


Well, after disputing "Dimension" as science fiction, I figured someone might object to "plane" as a nonsensical two-dimensional version of the same thing.



Not me! Although I did greatly appreciate the precision with which both you and @Michel Leclerc examined and deconstructed how discussing this topic seems to involve throwing around of terms like multi-dimensional or, in this case, plane of existence, without a real examination of what that term may mean?

On dimensions perhaps beyond those available to our senses I am reminded of Flatland and this explanation from Carl Sagan in his series Cosmos:

UnURElCzGc0

With that analogy I wonder if the physical manifestations of these beings represent not neccesarily by what our senses are able to convey as much as what our consciousness is able to conceive? If so, could this explain why in our modern culture they're expressed as UFO's and aliens, whereas in previous times and cultures they were depicted as angels or demons?

If that's the case, then I further wonder about the chain of events (https://secretsun.blogspot.com/2021/09/lucifers-technologies-original-series.html) that's led to our current technocratic civilisation. Has it in some way laid the foundations for a human conciousness more amenable or pliable to accept visitors, by providing a context for them that doesn't involve a spiritual dimension?

The other thought when I read yourself and Michel's posts was about the Sephiroth and the idea within the spheres of different densities from our physical world of Malkuth up to the infinite possibilities of unmanifested Kether. Maybe this model, or those of the Eastern traditions that I believe share some characteristics or perhaps common antecedents could provide a framework within which the physical ideas of dimensions and planes could be related to the more esoteric ideas around human consciousness and experience?

[shaberon]

With that analogy I wonder if the physical manifestations of these beings represent not neccesarily by what our senses are able to convey as much as what our consciousness is able to conceive? If so, could this explain why in our modern culture they're expressed as UFO's and aliens, whereas in previous times and cultures they were depicted as angels or demons?


Yes, except which is natural and which is spawned more by science fiction?

Is something along the lines of an "angel" less perceptible now?

It is, if one is conditioned to regard them as superstition, and thinking that now there is an advanced or superior way to explain superstitions.

All of the older systems definitely involved "other-worldly" beings, those of the Planets, just not the UFO or inter-galactic kind.




If that's the case, then I further wonder about the chain of events (https://secretsun.blogspot.com/2021/09/lucifers-technologies-original-series.html) that's led to our current technocratic civilisation. Has it in some way laid the foundations for a human conciousness more amenable or pliable to accept visitors, by providing a context for them that doesn't involve a spiritual dimension?


I would not think so, not for me at least. If something flies in and can convincingly state it comes from a system around Zeta Reticuli, that is fine. Why would it disconnect from the spiritual? To use Guru Nanak's expression, "Point my feet where God is not".





The other thought when I read yourself and Michel's posts was about the Sephiroth and the idea within the spheres of different densities from our physical world of Malkuth up to the infinite possibilities of unmanifested Kether. Maybe this model, or those of the Eastern traditions that I believe share some characteristics or perhaps common antecedents could provide a framework within which the physical ideas of dimensions and planes could be related to the more esoteric ideas around human consciousness and experience?


Of course. These are all doctrines of Emanations. The Kabala is not, in essence, any different from the Indian or Greek Gnostic systems. The difficulty arises not just from the linguistics involved, but then in the choosing of this or that particular system to work with. The Greek ones were all eradicated, and, the value I find in them is a bit more historical, in showing how the Greek language works, and how at one time this was rather widespread. I suppose you could call that "educational value". I would not quite carry that to the point of picking up Iamblichus's Theurgy and using it.

Kabalism is what I would call simply the Hebrew translation of the Babylonian system, similar to the Book of Genesis.

It is a survivor, among some small minority of Jews. It is talking about Lights that descend through a series of inferior mirrors.

Mandeanism is similar, except it is more thorough and it is not Jewish. The difficulty is that it is a closed society; you can't join it.

The Indian systems have none of those defects. At worst, some of them are colored by sectarianism. That part can be avoided. You can't convert to Hinduism. Nothing to convert to. All you can do is learn it and practice it. Even the idea of "caste Hinduism" is a later development, stating you are x by birthright, and this uses the Dwija or twice-born ceremony. In that way, it has "initiated priests due to birthright", but the original idea of caste just means the type of work that you naturally gravitate to. If your father was a priest, you could go off and be a farmer. Or, if you were born in the street, you might show the aptitude for learning, which would then be a better qualification for priesthood.

Moreover, Hinduism does not necessarily require thinking in terms of "priesthood" or "religion" at all, if thinking means philosophy. Stemming from the Rg Veda hymns:

Puruṣasūkta and Devīsūkta


are the "six philosophies", Darsanas or “visions of truth”:

Sāṃkhya,
Yoga,
Nyāya,
Vaiśeṣika,
Mīmāṃsā,
Vedānta.


Samkhya is "Enumeration" and thus is similar to Kabalism, and is already a doctrine of emanations.

Yoga is not a religion, it is a practice. It expands the twenty-five Tattvas of Samkhya to thirty-six.

Nyaya is closer to what is understood as philosophy in the west, e. g., rules of logic; Vaisesika is similar, but a bit more involved with materialistic atoms; Mimamsa is again similar, but, having its output as ethics, i. e. the summary of all the foregoing for purposes of right conduct, happiness, etc.

Vedanta is the Upanishads, like an intensified yoga with the doctrine of Maya, or, removing illusion from the senses and mind in order to reveal spiritual reality.

Certainly none of that is a religion in the sense of something requiring a specific baptism or oath, or that you have to do this or that for Shiva, and it is flexible in ways that could be more or less theological. Carvaka or Atheism is as valid as any other way of doing it.

This does not accept, but, rather, requires Planetary presences.

It would not refute or reject the possibility of physical inter-planetary travel; that simply is not a valid interpretation of what is actually in here, to the point where it could be called an opposite or conflict.

I just found out and posted in another thread that right after the "Chinese balloon incident" that NORAD adjusted their radars to track slow-moving objects. In the time of only a few days, the Air Force found and destroyed three (!) objects, including:

A car-sized cylinder with no observed method of propulsion that interfered with the sensors of an aircraft.

An octagon with strings hanging from it.

I had to find out on my own because it appears there is zero response on this website to these things that were all over the news, and chalked up by the government as unknown, but not balloons. Compared to the number of posts on sketchy videos and supposed cover-ups. I would say consciousness has been conditioned to project paranoia and fantasies to the point where it has become inert towards actual evidence.

The government left off saying these were probably benign research instruments. A Chinese balloon was somehow a "threat" but at least they admitted they launched it. What research institution has come forward to say they launched these rather strange things?

I can't possibly answer or explain that, but I can say it seems completely unrelated to metaphysics and yoga.

[Journeyman]

Yes, except which is natural and which is spawned more by science fiction? Is something along the lines of an "angel" less perceptible now? It is, if one is conditioned to regard them as superstition, and thinking that now there is an advanced or superior way to explain superstitions.

I have a bad habit of taking other people's threads off topic which I'm trying to curtail. In this instance I want to explore the 'golden age' of sci-fi, the statements of Philip K Dick regarding where his ideas came from and some of the esoteric symbolism and referencing within the comic books and early sci-fi as well as the signs that the likes of Verne, Lovecraft, Wells, Conan Doyle, Huxley etc were no strangers to the lodges. At which point the question of whether some of these UFO concepts have been pre-seeded comes into play, but there I go again.


I suppose you could call that "educational value". I would not quite carry that to the point of picking up Iamblichus's Theurgy and using it.

It's funny, I'm currently looking at an example of a large, powerful group doing exactly that, practising theurgy that is. I think it's a lot more common than most realise, although I'm uncertain whether one can draw any meaningful inferences from that to it's efficacy. Anyway, I digress...


If something flies in and can convincingly state it comes from a system around Zeta Reticuli, that is fine. Why would it disconnect from the spiritual? To use Guru Nanak's expression, "Point my feet where God is not"

I like that quote. I guess the counterpoint is that this holds true only where belief in the spiritual remains. There's quite an interesting worldview sketched out by Steiner of an Ahrimanic impulse that seeks to move humanity ever further into the material and seeks the negation of the spiritual aspect. If that's the case, the reclassification of angels or demons as UAP's and Aliens allows any such visitors to solidify the materialist explanation at the expense of the spiritual? 'What does God need with a starship?'

About the Babylonian origins of Kabbala, it's not as accessible for me to go for the source as the latter which at least has many explanatory texts pitched at my rather limited level of understanding. Mandeanism I'm almost completely ignorant of. The yazidi massacres opened my eyes to the complexity of the region in terms of religious minorities and reading about the Templars and the Gnostics highlighted the ancient significance of the Baptist, all of which were new to me and reinforced just how limited my understanding was of even the 'Western' tradition, so when I read your posts on the Eastern path it's almost all new to me. A couple years yoga, second hand as yet unread copy of the Bhagavad and meditation failures don't really equip me to add much to the debate on that axis. I do appreciate your posts on it here and elsewhere on the forum however. Such was my own individual ignorance and so much more so that of the culture around me I do find myself thinking that this is not by accident but by design, which may be me falling prey to:


I would say consciousness has been conditioned to project paranoia and fantasies to the point where it has become inert towards actual evidence.

or not, jury's still out!

Maybe the lattice that connects Crowley to Parsons, Lam to the Greys, to Hubbard, to Trinity, Babalon et al is the product of a coldly rational empire builder seeking to snare the credulous, or maybe it's the tip of an iceberg that connects the 'physical' X files episodes with the metaphysical. Jury's still out on that one for me as well. When however you state that there's sufficient real world evidence that does not require hypothesising about alternate dimensions, planes or what have you, then I'd agree. When conservative websites dedicated to talking about cars and tanks publish this:

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/31798/the-secretive-inventor-of-the-navys-bizarre-ufo-patents-finally-talks

then there's sufficient material even in the drawers of the US patent office to look askance at the official line of anything relating to this subject. However as the bodies which typically comment, NASA or NORAD etc are tainted in my eyes by previous disinfo and the unacknowledged esoteric referencing in their symbols, project names, dates of projects etc etc I think everything around this disclosure project is open to question. Maybe paranoid, maybe not.

[shaberon]

In this instance I want to explore the 'golden age' of sci-fi, the statements of Philip K Dick regarding where his ideas came from and some of the esoteric symbolism and referencing within the comic books and early sci-fi as well as the signs that the likes of Verne, Lovecraft, Wells, Conan Doyle, Huxley etc were no strangers to the lodges. At which point the question of whether some of these UFO concepts have been pre-seeded comes into play, but there I go again.


What is it they were not strangers to?

Aldous Huxley was pretty clearly knowledgeable of Trans-Atlanticism, and, George Orwell as probably a close second.

At a certain level, fiction was once the only way to express any anti-establishment view. Roughly put, although the Druids were exterminated, the Bards were fairly close cousins. This is through a long time period when there was very little literature as we know it, but there were plays. Every type of guild had its own type of play and parade, the masonic guild happening to have retained it. While some of the early literary playwrights, Chaucer and Dante particularly, used a lot of veiled messages in their works, which would have been understandable to the audience, like political cartoons.

Milton's Paradise Lost on the other hand may be the first historical document to suggest Lucifer as "the Devil".




There's quite an interesting worldview sketched out by Steiner of an Ahrimanic impulse that seeks to move humanity ever further into the material and seeks the negation of the spiritual aspect. If that's the case, the reclassification of angels or demons as UAP's and Aliens allows any such visitors to solidify the materialist explanation at the expense of the spiritual? 'What does God need with a starship?'


It is just like Lucifer. All of the older systems basically accept Darkness as an agent of light. Then it is the doctrine of Mani which elevates Ahriman to a type of cosmic father of evil, and constantly threatens people with hell, saying that his way is the only possible salvation. This is an innovation which spread westward and began to seep into consciousness. Actually it had some effect in China as well. It has no correspondence in India or in those Gnostic systems that may look superficially similar.

There is a difference in saying that the lower forces are materialistic, but *man* is the only real source of evil--and taking responsibility for it. That would be closer to the Indian and untampered Gnostic creeds.

And so yes, I would think that if something like an angel is re-classified as a physical alien in a metal machine, there again it breaks the spiritual connection. If it is an organic body, it should still be a member of the same deity, shouldn't it?




About the Babylonian origins of Kabbala, it's not as accessible for me to go for the source as the latter which at least has many explanatory texts pitched at my rather limited level of understanding. Mandeanism I'm almost completely ignorant of... Maybe the lattice that connects Crowley to Parsons, Lam to the Greys, to Hubbard, to Trinity, Babalon et al is the product of a coldly rational empire builder seeking to snare the credulous, or maybe it's the tip of an iceberg that connects the 'physical' X files episodes with the metaphysical.



In a similar manner to how the extreme dualism of "the devil and hell" can be found to be "introduced" to an otherwise unsuspecting world, it is almost certainly the case that original Judaism had no Genesis or Messiah. Broadly stated by a Karaite Jew (https://beneimikra.com/2010/05/03/judaisms-silent-prophet-zoroaster/):


As I will explain in this post, much of current Jewish belief is Zoroastrian in origin. The Talmud is full of Zoroastrian references, beliefs, and tenets. When the Jews were exiled to Babylon in the Sixth Century BCE their religious beliefs were very different from what most Jews believe today. Under the influence of the Babylonians (Chaldeans) and the Persians who followed them, Judaism changed. The Persians introduced Jews to a similar religious tradition in Zoroastrianism.

Christianity and, later, Islam are all but mirror images of Zoroastrianism in their approach to the world.

A complicated process began within the proto-Pharisaic and Essene movements to read Zoroastrian ideas into the Jewish scriptures. As a result Zarathustra became a prophet who is never named in the scriptures.

Consider the fact that the word “meshiach” is never once used to describe the forthcoming Davidic king. There is never a single direct reference to an end of days or an afterlife (excepting the book of Daniel, more on this in another post).



Similarly from H. Shapero (https://olli.gmu.edu/docstore/600docs/1403-651-3-Zoroastrianism,%20Judaism,%20and%20Christianity.pdf):


It was during the end of the Exile, among the Jews now living in the Persian Empire, that the first significant contact was made
between the Jewish and Iranian cultures. And it is evident in the Bible that Jewish thinking changed after the Exile. The question is then: are these changes the result of the cultural meeting of Jewish and Iranian thinkers, or are these changes due to the shock of Exile? During the Exile, Jews had to change not only how they worshipped, since they no longer had their temple or the animal sacrifices which had been at the center of their faith, but also how they thought about God. The Jewish concept of God as their tribal protector, who would save them from being conquered or exiled, had to undergo revision.



So, one would have to be able to accept that there were only *some* prophets and *some* books that constituted Judaism originally. Eventually, this was all re-compiled; and upon closer scrutiny, there were two Isaiahs, such as according to Ancient Iranian Studies (http://www.cais-soas.com/CAIS/Religions/iranian/Zarathushtrian/Oric.Basirov/zoroastrianism_in_ancient_sources.htm):


These two sources, and their respective dates, are attributed, firstly, to the prophet Isaiah himself, who is supposed to have lived in the 8th century BC, and secondly, to an anonymous poet-prophet during the Babylonian Captivity. This second composition, which contains chapters 40-55, is marked in the Bible by the Greek prefix, "deutero-", meaning "second", and referred to as Deutero-Isaiah, or Second Isaiah, and abbreviated to "II Is".


I alone have roused this man (Cyrus) in righteousness, and I will smooth his path before him; he shall rebuilt my city and let my exiles go free. (45.13)



Thus the unknown author of Second Isaiah speaks joyfully to his fellow captive Jews that the deliverance shall come to them through Cyrus, whom Yahweh has appointed as his Messiah. It is remarkable indeed, that in Second Isaiah, alone out of all the Old Testament, the term "messiah", in the sense of an anointed deliverer of the Jews, is used for a non-Jew, in fact for a Zoroastrian. The fact that the earliest reference to a messianic deliverer in any religion is the Zoroastrian term "Saoshyant", provides a reasonable basis for an argument that the adoption of such concept by the Jews may have been directly influenced by their coming into contact with the Zoroastrians in the West.

Any Hebrew literature which can be dated conclusively to a period before the time of Second Isaiah, lacks in any significant reference to Jewish cosmogony. Such absence is particularly conspicuous in respect of the belief, that it was Yahweh who created the world. Then suddenly it becomes one of the principal themes of Second Isaiah, chapters 40-48. This phenomenon gains further credence from the fact that cosmogony was not the primary purpose of the composition of Second Isaiah. This work, as it is well known, was intended to prepare the Jews for their imminent deliverance, by the ordained agent of Yahweh, Cyrus the great. It would have been enough for the author to emphasise that Yahweh possessed adequate power to materialise the promised deliverance. There was hardly any need for the cosmological framework within which the impending deliverance is announced.





So, it would be a modified version of "messiah", that becomes necessary to make a modified meaning of "christos", and pin it to a single person.

Those are not really "interpretational debates", they are complete doctrinal shifts, and we wind up with beliefs based on the Manichean Devil and Zoroaster the Savior, due to a process that more resembles statecraft or empire building.

Most of Zoroaster's original Avesta is cognate to Sanskrit and more or less identical, except the "savior" or Saoshyant has neither a corresponding word nor doctrine. That whole thing is Zoroastrian-or-western.


You might think this would come into someone's notice.

On this site, there are almost 100,000 threads. If you search it for Zoroaster (https://projectavalon.net/forum4/search.php?searchid=29658127), it is mentioned in a total of seventy-three. About six of them are where I posted more or less the same idea as now. I have no idea how it is done in the other areas.

Although misspelled, there was one attempt to make a thread just for Zoroastrianism (https://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?104106-Zoroastrism&highlight=zoroaster).


I submitted B. P. Wadia's Zoroastrian Philosophy (http://www.teosofiskakompaniet.net/BPWadia_ZoroastrianPhilosophy.htm). For one thing, he was an actual practitioner, secondly, he was in tune with the idea that the original was not necessarily the same kind that was re-codified into a temple system much later.

Also, he traveled to England, and tried to bring Dion Fortune into the eastern view. She found it threatening. Since then I don't know of any such honest attempts, just various regurgitations of this or that, without any real consideration of the ancient ways compared to visible changes.

Unfortunately the lady who started that thread became ill and eventually quit participating here. The last sign of her indicated that she had gotten influenced by something "sounding Zoroastrian", which turns out to be this (https://dockets.justia.com/docket/california/casdce/3:2019cv02407/660353). A gigantic lawsuit which resulted in:

May 5, 2020 Opinion or Order Filing 5 ORDER TO SHOW CAUSE.

June 1, 2020 Filing 6 DISMISSAL WITHOUT PREJUDICE.


What? I thought they were going to say something like we are talking about. Instead, we can easily find the original filing (https://digitalcommons.law.scu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=3104&context=historical).

I am not a legal expert, but, it looks to me like there are accusations of violating U. S. Code--but that is only used in criminal proceedings. This is a civil suit. The area for a Statutory violation has been left blank. If I wanted to say, for example, a policeman violated my rights under the Code that is supposed to regulate his behavior, I need a case, right?

I would need to say "violated X statute by assaulting me with a baton".

So this looks like what is cheerfully referred to as a "frivolous suit".

Is that what an inquiry about Zoroastrianism is supposed to lead to? Not that I know of. B. P. Wadia even quit his first job because he refused to tell lies in order to do business.

It is fairly easy to show that a type of framed narrative has been composed for mass consumption, whereas the Kabala has been trucking along in the background. It can only claim a spoken transmission in order to be considered of any antiquity, such as to Babylon. My understanding quickly descends to next to nothing. Even this has different schools, Merkabah (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merkabah_mysticism) being one of these, which emphasizes Ezekiel:


https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c6/Ezekiel%27s_vision.jpg



Because Ezekiel appears highly astrological, and was during the Captivity, this seems a bit closer to "universal language" that matches something outside of itself, compared to the somewhat arbitrary and artificial doctrines of Hell and the Savior.

Of course, the Wheel of Ezekiel has also been re-interpreted as a UFO.

Even worse, Ezekiel has been re-interpreted as "Gog and Magog" = Germany and Russia as the enemies of religion, and therefor fighting them brings us to the End Times, since the Jews are in Palestine and so forth.

I suppose it might be more accurate to say, that, from the Babylonian captivity, one can find a mysticism based in Ezekiel which develops in to the Kabalistic manuscripts, in tandem with the copying of Genesis. But this has nothing to do with the ingrained doctrines of religions as presently understood. It probably has everything to do with the subject of Plasma (https://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?121647-The-Kordylewski-Clouds-Plasma-Universe) as posted a couple days ago. That indeed is very nearly the esoteric doctrine of the Sun God(s), particularly, one visible (light), and one normally invisible (plasma, or the corona as seen during an eclipse). One of the implications from the book referenced is:


We may, in fact, have been looking for signs of extra-terrestrial life in the wrong place.

[Journeyman]

In this instance I want to explore the 'golden age' of sci-fi, the statements of Philip K Dick regarding where his ideas came from and some of the esoteric symbolism and referencing within the comic books and early sci-fi as well as the signs that the likes of Verne, Lovecraft, Wells, Conan Doyle, Huxley etc were no strangers to the lodges. At which point the question of whether some of these UFO concepts have been pre-seeded comes into play, but there I go again.


What is it they were not strangers to?

Aldous Huxley was pretty clearly knowledgeable of Trans-Atlanticism, and, George Orwell as probably a close second.

At a certain level, fiction was once the only way to express any anti-establishment view. Roughly put, although the Druids were exterminated, the Bards were fairly close cousins. This is through a long time period when there was very little literature as we know it, but there were plays. Every type of guild had its own type of play and parade, the masonic guild happening to have retained it. While some of the early literary playwrights, Chaucer and Dante particularly, used a lot of veiled messages in their works, which would have been understandable to the audience, like political cartoons.

Milton's Paradise Lost on the other hand may be the first historical document to suggest Lucifer as "the Devil".




There's quite an interesting worldview sketched out by Steiner of an Ahrimanic impulse that seeks to move humanity ever further into the material and seeks the negation of the spiritual aspect. If that's the case, the reclassification of angels or demons as UAP's and Aliens allows any such visitors to solidify the materialist explanation at the expense of the spiritual? 'What does God need with a starship?'


It is just like Lucifer. All of the older systems basically accept Darkness as an agent of light. Then it is the doctrine of Mani which elevates Ahriman to a type of cosmic father of evil, and constantly threatens people with hell, saying that his way is the only possible salvation. This is an innovation which spread westward and began to seep into consciousness. Actually it had some effect in China as well. It has no correspondence in India or in those Gnostic systems that may look superficially similar.

There is a difference in saying that the lower forces are materialistic, but *man* is the only real source of evil--and taking responsibility for it. That would be closer to the Indian and untampered Gnostic creeds.

And so yes, I would think that if something like an angel is re-classified as a physical alien in a metal machine, there again it breaks the spiritual connection. If it is an organic body, it should still be a member of the same deity, shouldn't it?




About the Babylonian origins of Kabbala, it's not as accessible for me to go for the source as the latter which at least has many explanatory texts pitched at my rather limited level of understanding. Mandeanism I'm almost completely ignorant of... Maybe the lattice that connects Crowley to Parsons, Lam to the Greys, to Hubbard, to Trinity, Babalon et al is the product of a coldly rational empire builder seeking to snare the credulous, or maybe it's the tip of an iceberg that connects the 'physical' X files episodes with the metaphysical.



In a similar manner to how the extreme dualism of "the devil and hell" can be found to be "introduced" to an otherwise unsuspecting world, it is almost certainly the case that original Judaism had no Genesis or Messiah. Broadly stated by a Karaite Jew (https://beneimikra.com/2010/05/03/judaisms-silent-prophet-zoroaster/):


As I will explain in this post, much of current Jewish belief is Zoroastrian in origin. The Talmud is full of Zoroastrian references, beliefs, and tenets. When the Jews were exiled to Babylon in the Sixth Century BCE their religious beliefs were very different from what most Jews believe today. Under the influence of the Babylonians (Chaldeans) and the Persians who followed them, Judaism changed. The Persians introduced Jews to a similar religious tradition in Zoroastrianism.

Christianity and, later, Islam are all but mirror images of Zoroastrianism in their approach to the world.

A complicated process began within the proto-Pharisaic and Essene movements to read Zoroastrian ideas into the Jewish scriptures. As a result Zarathustra became a prophet who is never named in the scriptures.

Consider the fact that the word “meshiach” is never once used to describe the forthcoming Davidic king. There is never a single direct reference to an end of days or an afterlife (excepting the book of Daniel, more on this in another post).



Similarly from H. Shapero (https://olli.gmu.edu/docstore/600docs/1403-651-3-Zoroastrianism,%20Judaism,%20and%20Christianity.pdf):


It was during the end of the Exile, among the Jews now living in the Persian Empire, that the first significant contact was made
between the Jewish and Iranian cultures. And it is evident in the Bible that Jewish thinking changed after the Exile. The question is then: are these changes the result of the cultural meeting of Jewish and Iranian thinkers, or are these changes due to the shock of Exile? During the Exile, Jews had to change not only how they worshipped, since they no longer had their temple or the animal sacrifices which had been at the center of their faith, but also how they thought about God. The Jewish concept of God as their tribal protector, who would save them from being conquered or exiled, had to undergo revision.



So, one would have to be able to accept that there were only *some* prophets and *some* books that constituted Judaism originally. Eventually, this was all re-compiled; and upon closer scrutiny, there were two Isaiahs, such as according to Ancient Iranian Studies (http://www.cais-soas.com/CAIS/Religions/iranian/Zarathushtrian/Oric.Basirov/zoroastrianism_in_ancient_sources.htm):


These two sources, and their respective dates, are attributed, firstly, to the prophet Isaiah himself, who is supposed to have lived in the 8th century BC, and secondly, to an anonymous poet-prophet during the Babylonian Captivity. This second composition, which contains chapters 40-55, is marked in the Bible by the Greek prefix, "deutero-", meaning "second", and referred to as Deutero-Isaiah, or Second Isaiah, and abbreviated to "II Is".


I alone have roused this man (Cyrus) in righteousness, and I will smooth his path before him; he shall rebuilt my city and let my exiles go free. (45.13)



Thus the unknown author of Second Isaiah speaks joyfully to his fellow captive Jews that the deliverance shall come to them through Cyrus, whom Yahweh has appointed as his Messiah. It is remarkable indeed, that in Second Isaiah, alone out of all the Old Testament, the term "messiah", in the sense of an anointed deliverer of the Jews, is used for a non-Jew, in fact for a Zoroastrian. The fact that the earliest reference to a messianic deliverer in any religion is the Zoroastrian term "Saoshyant", provides a reasonable basis for an argument that the adoption of such concept by the Jews may have been directly influenced by their coming into contact with the Zoroastrians in the West.

Any Hebrew literature which can be dated conclusively to a period before the time of Second Isaiah, lacks in any significant reference to Jewish cosmogony. Such absence is particularly conspicuous in respect of the belief, that it was Yahweh who created the world. Then suddenly it becomes one of the principal themes of Second Isaiah, chapters 40-48. This phenomenon gains further credence from the fact that cosmogony was not the primary purpose of the composition of Second Isaiah. This work, as it is well known, was intended to prepare the Jews for their imminent deliverance, by the ordained agent of Yahweh, Cyrus the great. It would have been enough for the author to emphasise that Yahweh possessed adequate power to materialise the promised deliverance. There was hardly any need for the cosmological framework within which the impending deliverance is announced.





So, it would be a modified version of "messiah", that becomes necessary to make a modified meaning of "christos", and pin it to a single person.

Those are not really "interpretational debates", they are complete doctrinal shifts, and we wind up with beliefs based on the Manichean Devil and Zoroaster the Savior, due to a process that more resembles statecraft or empire building.

Most of Zoroaster's original Avesta is cognate to Sanskrit and more or less identical, except the "savior" or Saoshyant has neither a corresponding word nor doctrine. That whole thing is Zoroastrian-or-western.


You might think this would come into someone's notice.

On this site, there are almost 100,000 threads. If you search it for Zoroaster (https://projectavalon.net/forum4/search.php?searchid=29658127), it is mentioned in a total of seventy-three. About six of them are where I posted more or less the same idea as now. I have no idea how it is done in the other areas.

Although misspelled, there was one attempt to make a thread just for Zoroastrianism (https://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?104106-Zoroastrism&highlight=zoroaster).


I submitted B. P. Wadia's Zoroastrian Philosophy (http://www.teosofiskakompaniet.net/BPWadia_ZoroastrianPhilosophy.htm). For one thing, he was an actual practitioner, secondly, he was in tune with the idea that the original was not necessarily the same kind that was re-codified into a temple system much later.

Also, he traveled to England, and tried to bring Dion Fortune into the eastern view. She found it threatening. Since then I don't know of any such honest attempts, just various regurgitations of this or that, without any real consideration of the ancient ways compared to visible changes.

Unfortunately the lady who started that thread became ill and eventually quit participating here. The last sign of her indicated that she had gotten influenced by something "sounding Zoroastrian", which turns out to be this (https://dockets.justia.com/docket/california/casdce/3:2019cv02407/660353). A gigantic lawsuit which resulted in:

May 5, 2020 Opinion or Order Filing 5 ORDER TO SHOW CAUSE.

June 1, 2020 Filing 6 DISMISSAL WITHOUT PREJUDICE.


What? I thought they were going to say something like we are talking about. Instead, we can easily find the original filing (https://digitalcommons.law.scu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=3104&context=historical).

I am not a legal expert, but, it looks to me like there are accusations of violating U. S. Code--but that is only used in criminal proceedings. This is a civil suit. The area for a Statutory violation has been left blank. If I wanted to say, for example, a policeman violated my rights under the Code that is supposed to regulate his behavior, I need a case, right?

I would need to say "violated X statute by assaulting me with a baton".

So this looks like what is cheerfully referred to as a "frivolous suit".

Is that what an inquiry about Zoroastrianism is supposed to lead to? Not that I know of. B. P. Wadia even quit his first job because he refused to tell lies in order to do business.

It is fairly easy to show that a type of framed narrative has been composed for mass consumption, whereas the Kabala has been trucking along in the background. It can only claim a spoken transmission in order to be considered of any antiquity, such as to Babylon. My understanding quickly descends to next to nothing. Even this has different schools, Merkabah (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merkabah_mysticism) being one of these, which emphasizes Ezekiel:


https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c6/Ezekiel%27s_vision.jpg



Because Ezekiel appears highly astrological, and was during the Captivity, this seems a bit closer to "universal language" that matches something outside of itself, compared to the somewhat arbitrary and artificial doctrines of Hell and the Savior.

Of course, the Wheel of Ezekiel has also been re-interpreted as a UFO.

Even worse, Ezekiel has been re-interpreted as "Gog and Magog" = Germany and Russia as the enemies of religion, and therefor fighting them brings us to the End Times, since the Jews are in Palestine and so forth.

I suppose it might be more accurate to say, that, from the Babylonian captivity, one can find a mysticism based in Ezekiel which develops in to the Kabalistic manuscripts, in tandem with the copying of Genesis. But this has nothing to do with the ingrained doctrines of religions as presently understood. It probably has everything to do with the subject of Plasma (https://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?121647-The-Kordylewski-Clouds-Plasma-Universe) as posted a couple days ago. That indeed is very nearly the esoteric doctrine of the Sun God(s), particularly, one visible (light), and one normally invisible (plasma, or the corona as seen during an eclipse). One of the implications from the book referenced is:


We may, in fact, have been looking for signs of extra-terrestrial life in the wrong place.

Thanks, a lot to unpack and think on there. Will revert later.

[shaberon]

Thanks, a lot to unpack and think on there. Will revert later.



There are a lot of details, but just a few simple principles.


If "Zoroaster" has been bandied about for...I'm not sure what purposes...here is what we find on site for Codex Sinaiticus (https://projectavalon.net/forum4/search.php?searchid=29675498)--it has been mentioned as existing about three times.

Discovered in 1859, written ca. 350, it is the oldest known almost-complete New Testament.

Here is what it looks like under magnification:


https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-b5e82f2d7129601397455e0cb80ec8a2



Anyone been sleuthing that? Not really.

All that was said about Judaism is that some of it cannot be demonstrated as existing before the Captivity, and that even if Exodus is maybe a little exaggerated, those things basically are their scriptures.

The New Testament barely has an honest bone in its body.

Mandaeanism is a doctrine compatible with Egypt and Harran (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harran), where it continued into the 1100s, which is rather close to the doctrines of India, which is easily explainable, because all those were connected for a long time before there ever was a Moses.

They go so far as to say there are etherialized men on Venus. It stops shy of inter-planetary commerce, which is not really found in any of those things, aside from being, I guess you could say, "permissible".

Zoroaster simply says he will return, and they are not, as far as I know, any kind of Messiah cult that fixates on this.

There are definitely tons of details if one tries to look at "what happened" in terms of re-writing the ancient doctrines, but, everything from the Indian Atharva Veda to Roman Mithraism generally shares a view of a higher and lower Sun, and a higher and lower Spirit--which is exactly what is bottled up and conflated into one thing by the newer or more state-crafted beliefs. That is exactly why the Mandaeans say they are related to, but do not follow, Moses.

[Journeyman]

Thanks, a lot to unpack and think on there. Will revert later.

There are a lot of details, but just a few simple principles.

Maybe I'm too immersed in the former, but without a large intellectual 'hinterland' in spiritual subjects I needed a little time to get, if not familar but acquainted with Mandeaism or Karaite Judaism! However one thing which got me into the weeds was:


[QUOTE=Journeyman;1571335]In this instance I want to explore the 'golden age' of sci-fi, the statements of Philip K Dick regarding where his ideas came from and some of the esoteric symbolism and referencing within the comic books and early sci-fi as well as the signs that the likes of Verne, Lovecraft, Wells, Conan Doyle, Huxley etc were no strangers to the lodges. At which point the question of whether some of these UFO concepts have been pre-seeded comes into play, but there I go again.


What is it they were not strangers to?


The Lodges was my, lazy, way of suggesting that they were receiving guidance or instruction from secret societies that may have found its way into their literary output. Sure, ideological aims such as TransAtlanticism, but perhaps also concepts which are less easily linked to the advancement of financial or geo-political aims, but which may be more related to a long term project relating to the guidance, shaping and transformation of human consciousness. So many of these people are linked, Eric Blair for instance with: Huxley (https://allreligionsareone.org/Aldous%20Huxley.html). Not sure how much weight to put on Springmeier but HG Wells (https://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/sociopolitica/esp_sociopol_nwo121.htm) may have had direction or inspiration from hidden sources. Lovecraft another of interest according to Chris Knowles research (https://secretsun.blogspot.com/2014/08/lovecraft-redux-strange-travels.html).

Knowles also interesting on modern day mithraism btw (https://secretsun.blogspot.com/2021/10/trick-or-treat-mithraic-elite-your-vr.html#more). I also wouldn't have known there was an actual statue of Zoroaster (https://secretsun.blogspot.com/2023/01/watcher-worship-watch-she-demons-take.html) in NYC appellate court without him highlighting the NYT feature.

Having extricated myself from one rabbit hole another point you made inadvertently sent me down another:


At a certain level, fiction was once the only way to express any anti-establishment view. Roughly put, although the Druids were exterminated, the Bards were fairly close cousins. This is through a long time period when there was very little literature as we know it, but there were plays. Every type of guild had its own type of play and parade, the masonic guild happening to have retained it. While some of the early literary playwrights, Chaucer and Dante particularly, used a lot of veiled messages in their works, which would have been understandable to the audience, like political cartoons.

Those hidden layers of symbolism have occupied many hours. I am, as often in the last few years, on or maybe across the precipice of knowledge and into the speculative. So feel free to dismiss this point as such, I think the entire history of acting, plays, masquerades, Pierrot, the guilds of actors that performed at Globe and elsewhere are linked at a very deep level with the power structure. Most obviously these days with Hollywood, but this should in my view be seen as simply the latest iteration of a consistent pattern, where patronage is a cover story for whatever MK ultra was called back in the day.

I'm aware this is all getting off topic. To try and get out of the weeds let me say I think caution is merited on the entirety of the disclosure / UAP piece, not only due to its origins in an environment long the preserve of intel agencies and related groups, but also due to the links, some overt, some less concrete to areas described for want of a better term as esoteric or occult.

I'll come back separately with something closer to both the OP and your latest reply, needed to close off that tangent first.

[shaberon]

The Lodges was my, lazy, way of suggesting that they were receiving guidance or instruction from secret societies that may have found its way into their literary output. Sure, ideological aims such as TransAtlanticism, but perhaps also concepts which are less easily linked to the advancement of financial or geo-political aims, but which may be more related to a long term project relating to the guidance, shaping and transformation of human consciousness.


Okay.

Let's say that is pretty much correct at an elite and a political level, and then something similar in a popular way:



I think the entire history of acting, plays, masquerades, Pierrot, the guilds of actors that performed at Globe and elsewhere are linked at a very deep level with the power structure.


Then we run into a question rather like what are the knowledge and values for a given Lodge.

Speaking as an occultist I would say the European Lodges really don't have much. It is a place where around the 4-600s that knowledge became rather clamped down, illiteracy was the usual, and religious services were Latin.

Being different was dangerous.

Charlemagne was surprised to be crowned Holy Roman Emperor. He went for a normal regnal sanction, came out like this, and became educated enough to sign his name.

In rural areas there were herbalists who for purposes of secrecy made up codes like Dragon's Blood for flowers and extracts and so on.

At some point, probably around the 1100s, the Templars and Hospitallers probably did get a kind of initiation or baptism by the Mandaeans and possibly even the Druze.

The first seems more likely, and, of course, is an existential threat to the Pope.

The Templars were shut down in the 1300s with the remainder becoming the Knights of Christ in Portugal. The ideas in English Freemasonry come from Chevalier Ramsay having fantasies in Rosslyn Cathedral.

However the Hospitallers had a base on Malta until Napoleon.

In the 1400s this influenced the Alchemists of Prague and the Medici Renaissance, which is neo-Platonic.

Neither of those lasted a great deal of time, with the remnants, so to speak, being swept to Vienna, then Berlin, and finally St. Petersburg.

In the early 1900s the people "secretly having found a way to practice a spiritual path" were some Rosicrucians in Swabia who were not any kind of a lodge, but four working-class friends. It is not that surprising, because the Order of St. Joachim and the House of Wurttemburg was the only thing that managed to "enshrine", so to speak, the tradition, over the course of all the wars that kept happening.

After Napoleon, the Hospitallers organization was destroyed and reformed in name only.

So many kinds of lodges were being made that Masonic and Rosicrucian sorts of names probably get a little bit confusing.

For a long time, things like fortune telling, magic, and necromancy became popular entertainment. Especially when things started coming in from Egypt.

Now, what are a handful of modern people, taking a few fragments and their own conclusions, really going to have to say compared to someone from any kind of tradition which already does it?


That has no effect on the social factor that people are going to join a club.

Then when you put twenty people in a meeting it is as likely they will all disagree with each other.

Cumulatively I would think it has less, in the natural sense if there are non-physical beings, and more, in the artificial sense of projects and disinformation. The first is just a philosophical consequence of Astrology. I can accept that there probably are people on Jupiter. Then I have nothing to prove or disprove about it.

Almost everything through any type of communication or art form is manipulation but--towards what??