Man, the psychopath. Will nature fight back?

[Bill Ryan]

Friends, this is something I feel extremely strongly about. And it has to be possible that nature on Planet Earth is indeed beginning to fight back.

Long ago, I read a science fiction short story about a newly discovered planet, uninhabited by any intelligent species, that was being colonized by humans. But soon, everything began to go wrong, and an unending sequence of accidents and disasters forced the humans to abandon the planet as being just too dangerous. The theme was that the planet had consciously repelled them, as an immune system repels a parasite or a virus.

(Of course, to some considerable extent this was also the theme of James Cameron's Avatar.)

I'd welcome your views. I do have a little more to say! But I'd love to hear others' contributions first.

:flower::grouphug: :flower:

[onawah]

I think you probably know my views, Bill, but I don't think it's so much a case of Earth beginning to fight back (though that is true from one perspective) as it is that there are cycles built into the cosmos such as the 12,000 year solar cycles and the accompanying geomagnetic pole reversal which Earth is experiencing now.
There is plenty of credible data about all that which has been regularly presented on the SuspiciousObservers youtube channel:
https://www.youtube.com/@Suspicious0bservers .
And which has been consistently posted here for a few years now:
https://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?107798-Geomagnetic-Reversals-and-Ice-Ages
You wrote:
"...it has to be possible that nature on Planet Earth is indeed beginning to fight back."
I know that you don't discount that information, so I am a little curious as to why you are referring to the phenomena as something that is just beginning, rather than something that has been repeating regularly for thousands, perhaps millions of years.
Possibly it is a ploy to bring skeptics into the discussion, in which case you can delete this post if it's just going to act as a spoiler. :nod:


Friends, this is something I feel extremely strongly about. And it has to be possible that nature on Planet Earth is indeed beginning to fight back.

Long ago, I read a science fiction short story about a newly discovered planet, uninhabited by any intelligent species, that was being colonized by humans. But soon, everything began to go wrong, and an unending sequence of accidents and disasters forced the humans to abandon the planet as being just too dangerous. The theme was that the planet had consciously repelled them, as an immune system repels a parasite or a virus.

(Of course, to some considerable extent this was also the theme of James Cameron's Avatar.)

I'd welcome your views. I do have a little more to say! But I'd love to hear others' contributions first.

:flower::grouphug: :flower:

[Michel Leclerc]

Two considerations Bill.

One. Man is part of Nature. The survival of the fittest is one of Nature‘s strategies. Psychopathy is also a survival strategy. If “Nature fights back”, it will be Nature fighting part of herself, or man resisting Nature as a way of Nature protecting one of her species.

Two. Spinoza. Ultimate reality and fundamental substance is “Deus sive Natura" (as his Latin phrasing goes): "God, or in other words: Nature”. So if Nature fights psychopathic man, it means that the Divine fights psychopathic Adam Kadmos in cabalistic thinking or Purusha in Indian civilisation i.e. its own emanation. That “It”, the Divine or Nature, would do such a thing is beyond the understanding of the snippets of Purusha we are.

I guess we need to understand that we are part of the "love logic" (which is not binary or ternary or quaternary logic, i.e. rational logic) behind God/Nature emanating Creation. “Love logic” is not as self-contradictory as rationality would prefer. Hence Deus sive Natura (or Dea sive Naturus as I am trying to say at times) may rather love back instead of fighting.

But then, to rephrase your statement, such loving back may very well be quite tough love.

[Bill Ryan]

One. Man is part of Nature. The survival of the fittest is one of Nature‘s strategies. Psychopathy is also a survival strategy. If “Nature fights back”, it will be Nature fighting part of herself, or man resisting Nature as a way of Nature protecting one of her species.I don't think that logic applies. It's actually rather circular. That argument goes:


Man is part of nature.
If man destroys everything around him, including every other species, his own living environment, and his very own genome, then by definition that's a natural occurrence.
Therefore everything's okay. (Or, maybe translated into other language, it's God's Divine Will.)

As best I know and understand, for uncountable millennia past mankind understood with clarity and innate wisdom that he was an integral part of the natural cycle, on which he depended and which he deeply appreciated. Many indigenous people still hold that as true for them today, and that view is not extinct yet.

But Man, the Psychopath may be likened in one or two ways to a rabid dog. A rabid dog is part of nature, too (and it was even long before humans existed) — but rabid dogs in nature don't survive. Nature takes care of the problem, all in her own way.

[Matthew]

Yeah we live on a planet where free water falls from the sky most places, and free food makes itself. Everything else is not Gods fault. How we screwed this up is on us.

[syrwong]

I am not sure if nature/gaia does this habitually like a cow trying to shake off the ticks from its body. One thing is more sure, there are those who disguise as nature doing this, using viruses and the weather to eliminate humans from this earth, in the same way as the Maui fire that evicted the indigenous people from the Island.

In the last 16 hours Hong Kong and Shenzhen have been ravaged by unprecedented rainfall causing extensive flooding. A huge raincloud just sits over Hong Kong, unmoving. Still pouring. Very weird.

oZnkhNC17eY

[Arcturian108]

I have mentioned in another thread somewhere that I was taking seriously the possibility that our Sun would experience a cyclical micronova in the next 20 years, or so. I discussed this with some associates, and we started to have a discussion with our Solar Logos (the God associated with our Sun) about this issue. The Solar Logos told us that a cleansing of the planet will become necessary should we go ahead with the full development of AI. That was several months ago, and there have been no further developments to report.

[Tyy1907]

Maybe another way to say Bill's thoughts would be that natural disasters and extreme weather are mankind's karma circling back.
I would argue have we been allowed to let our ingenuity flourish? Our standards for what's right and true come to the surface and lead? What happens to the leader that wants to avoid wars and stands up for his people and truly represents their best interests? What about this wave of technology that showed up over the last hundred years. Do you want a cell phone that gets info faster and faster?
Do you even want a cell phone?
If humanity was left unhindered we would be flourishing living close to the land in harmony.

[Isserley]

...I would argue have we been allowed to let our ingenuity flourish? Our standards for what's right and true come to the surface and lead? What happens to the leader that wants to avoid wars and stands up for his people and truly represents their best interests? What about this wave of technology that showed up over the last hundred years. Do you want a cell phone that gets info faster and faster?
Do you even want a cell phone?
If humanity was left unhindered we would be flourishing living close to the land in harmony.

That is how I see it as well. Question should be - Who made a man a psychopath and why? Who separated him from nature and continues to do so?
Humanity is systematically misdirected. Civilized society was probably created for the purpose of re-educating psychopaths because in tribes that have not been touched by civilization, we do not see this gap between man and nature. I do not believe that things happen by chance or that the human species is inherently psychopathic. I don't want to think that for a second - it's right up to globalists ally - we are not taking care of earth (read carbon footprint) so our numbers should be reduced and heavily controlled..

[9ideon]

Just because the system on this World (and couple others) is run by Psychopaths (or if you want to go Biblical, Demons, soulless ones) does not mean that all are Psychopaths.

The way this system is setup is pretty simple.

The ones with money (introduced to destroy Balance) create a "caste system", in where the central issue is self serving, or self, the I am nonsense.

To stay in power they will have to accept certain People willing to do their bidding, how are these People found? Through the system.

When we are young and start interacting with others, namely at schools, we're pushed into an artificial environment, you will have to become what everybody else is, if you do not you'll be punished by the group. Kids need to fit in, have certain clothes, listen to certain music, like certain People etc.

Now, why most People get mental issues, small or big we all have 'm, as of a young age is because we are not allowed to be who we are, we must comply to something which feels un-natural, thus creating mental issues from young up. Except when you're a Sociopath, when you're a Sociopath you will thrive in this system, simply because your Psyche has no basic personality to speak of, Sociopaths are Chameleons. They're the ones that will take power by lying, becoming successful by deception and so on, have no doubt you're getting what I mean here.

Our system (popularity scheme) is setup for Sociopaths to thrive. Although Sociopaths do know they're wronging People, they do not care, this is what it means when someone says, "He/She sold her Soul". The psychopathic bloodlines can only work their schemes with the help of these Sociopaths. Yes, the system is supplemented with Narcissistic folk as well, they will appear in acting, sports etc, the ones your Kids basically adore. Obviously we have "normal" People in there too, most of them cannot hack how things are done though.

In any case, we Humans are not supposed to be what we are now, in essence, when brought up the right way inside a completely different system, we will care. It is like what I mentioned in one of my threads here, our creative spark is being twisted around and used for destruction instead of creation.

Despite the fact that due to this system most People are lost, does not mean it is their fault.

In that perspective I must say I wholesomely disagree with your title, something tells me that this same title was meant to be a little provocative though, :silent:

[onawah]

The solar cycle that causes devastion on Earth happens on a regular, predetermined basis.
I doubt that it is known whether it always happens when mankind has become destructive to the planet, though there is certainly evidence that it has happened before when mankind had sophisticated technology.
The scientifically demonstrable cause of that cycle is based on the work of many scientists from various fields such as astrophysics, astronomy, mathematics and archeology.
The work of the late Dr. Paul la Violette on what he called the Galactic Superwave is a good case in point, though sadly, it was cut short by his death.

His work demonstrated that changes characterized by the Superwave begin periodically in the galactic core and emanate outward through the whole galaxy, gradually affecting every star and planet.
Reports of novas and micronovas continue coming in from nearby space, and are constantly being added to the database.
And the Superwive is getting very near to Earth.

It seems obvious that that is knowledge that the elite do not want the public to be aware of, so scientists are careful about how and what they reveal as they continue publishing their findings, but there are certainly plenty of noteworthy scientists now who are in agreement.
The elite have created distractions like the global warming myth, but as the public's suspicions continue to mount, sources like SuspiciousObservers will be gaining more and more followers.

Therein lies the danger, though the danger is also that the whole "game" is a race against time.
Leading in the race are two main adversaries: the Preppers, and the elite with their DUMBs and their off-world boltholes.
The latter certainly have the advantage when it comes to financial resources, but Preppers have the strength of their faith and community mindedness, determination, and greater resilience.

The micronova could happen as late as the late 2040s by recent predictions (though the pole reversal seems to be accelerating, so that estimate may be too high).
However, the deciding factor may not be so much who survives the Sun's micronova and the pole reversal, but who survives the destruction of the electric grid.
That could easily happen much sooner than the 2040s, because as the Superwave approaches, the protective magentic and ozone layers around the Earth continue to diminish, letting in more dangerous energy from the Sun's flares and CMEs.
This will continue to cause unpredictible and unexpected weather events which will increase in severity and will certainly have an impace on transformers and other electric equipment.
There is also a mini Ice Age predicted to manifest after the micronova, though it is not expected to last very long.

All of this information is available on SuspiciousObservers youtube channel here:
rEWoPzaDmOA
E4pWZGBpWP0
and the playlists here: https://www.youtube.com/@Suspicious0bservers/playlists?view=50&sort=dd&shelf_id=3

IMHO.
I present this information as I have numerous times before, not from any particular scientific expertise, but more as an Intuitive, and someone who has studied the research from a broad perspective.
I've taken many sources into account, from psychic Edgar Cayce and ancient prophecies, to archeologist extraordinaire Brian Foerster.
There is also the information from the Vedas concerning the Yugas that is very informative, though controversy exists as to where exactly we are now in that cosmic cycle.
I think, by all the signs, that we are in the end of the Kali Yuga and will be ascending out of that into the next age, characterized by growing Light and Wisdom, though that ascension process takes a very long time
But for all intensive purposes at this point, SuspiciousObservers is the source I recommend the most.

There are some archeologists like Randal Carlson who waver between the comet theory and the solar cycle theory.
Graham Hancock theories are popular, and he is a skilled entertainer, but he is not trained in any field of science that informs him adequately about what causes the periodic cataclysms.
He is still adhering to the comet theory, even though it's been disproven quite convincingly.
Everyone has an opinion, but until an adequate and broad enough amount of research is done, that doesn't count for much.
(The problem with academia is that it tends to give people tunnel vision. :nerd:)

But then of course, not everyone really wants to know...:fie:
Which is understandable because it can cause a lot of drastic changes in one's entire outlook and lifestyle.
That however, is the subject for another discussion....:nod:

[happyuk]

I think it's not so much nature fights back but retreats, and in silent mutiny withdraws her support.
In the same as an inveterate drug user eventually loses his immunity, or a selfish employer loses his best workers to a rival company, so it is with nature, when man's actions are no longer in harmony.
The whole time, the joke is on them.

[Bruce G Charlton]

Psychopathy is a kind of psychological and behavioural term; I see things more related to Good and evil terms - these being two sides in a spiritual war between God (who is creator, and our loving parents; and who I regard as Good) and the powers that oppose divine creation - which I call evil.

Evil has taken over all the major institutions (including churches) of the 'Western' world, and indeed beyond; and made them purposively evil in a more and more destructive and negative way (https://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?120761-The-nature-of-evil-in-the-modern-world) - as is most apparent in the increasing domination of inverted values (inversions of virtue and sin, beauty and ugliness, truth and lies, coherence and chaos). And 'the masses' - all around the world - have mostly (and increasingly) gone-along with this top-down change - as was very evident in 2020.

(No major nation has clearly and explicitly repented its actions in 2020, so far as I know; and such recognition and rejection of evil would seem to be a necessary first step.)

Another assumption I have is that the world (reality) is made up of Beings who are alive, conscious and purposive - and this applies to everything: the stars, planets, earth, vegetation, animals... Some of these Beings have taken the side of evil; but many of them have not - and still are aligned with the purposes of divine creation.

The way I therefore interpret the phenomena you describe is that it is - to some significant extent - a situation in which the destructiveness of Men is being resisted by the uncorrupted beings of 'nature'.

At any rate, that is increasingly my response to life: I find the mass of people are worse and worse, both in terms of the ways they choose to understand things and in what they want (so many have embraced fear, lies, resentment - as matters of personal identity); while many aspects of 'nature', where it survives, is an ever-greater contrast; and seems to be a reservoir of goodness.

As Mankind deliberately detaches from nature, from life, from consciousness, from divine purpose... then naturally, inevitably, Mankind will find itself alone and in opposition to the world; and this situation will not be sustainable.

In other words: Mankind will get what it wants.

The solution must be very deep: People must want differently than they at present (mostly) do; and unless such a fundamental reorientation occurs, then self-destruction is inevitable - because desired.

[Harmony]

In James Cameron’s movie "Avatar", the planet Pandora was portrayed as being sentient and the planet’s consciousness connected to all it’s life creations, like organs in one body. So communication between the all was present, at least to a certain extent in the movie, but in reality it is even more profound and goes way beyond the planet itself. Using the analogy of a body and it’s organs, it is easy to know what can happen when that body is not communicating well with “the whole”


Humans are not all psychopaths, of course. Psychopaths tend to be disconnected from the outside world, others feelings and the consequences of their actions and how they affect everything around them and can easily make internal excuses that make believe their actions are ok.


If this is a planet of free will (within set parameters), to show us how we are connected, it seems the consequences of our actions as a whole might look like the situation of the planet Earth we are seeing, a perfect example of disregard, greed and the lack of conscious connection we might call “love” that connects all things. When in the “love” frequency a connection is felt, as with an empathic person and many animals, when they truely feel that pain of the all when it is out of balance. So it is likely our Earth soul would also feel that out of balance frequency and need to correct the balance when it reaches a certain point.


People out of balance are destroying their own home. We sometimes speak of people not being really human any more and possibly being or housing lower entities. Where there is an absence of “love” it may leave a void where lower entities take advantage of some people in a parasitic way, and our intended evolution starts to de-evolve.


So a fail-safe solution would be put in place by source via our higher selves that stay in full conciousness just in case things get out of hand, and that is where we are now.:sun:

[palehorse]

Will nature fight back?

Yes. It always does.

Here I am quoting Terrence McKenna from his book "Food of the Gods: The search for the original tree of knowledge".

"What I think happened is that in the world of prehistory all religion was experiential, and it was based on the pursuit of ecstasy through plants. And at some time, very early, a group interposed itself between people and direct experience of the 'Other.' This created hierarchies, priesthoods, theological systems, castes, ritual, taboos. Shamanism, on the other hand, is an experiential science that deals with an area where we know nothing. It is important to remember that our epistemological tools have developed very unevenly in the West. We know a tremendous amount about what is going on in the heart of the atom, but we know absolutely nothing about the nature of the mind."

I highlighted 2 parts in the above quote, but the second one Shamanism I would say not the current Shamanism as we know today, because it falls straight into the first part I highlighted.

Here is the tape recorded in 1995, the day talk was labeled as "A Crisis in Consciousness". This video answers many questions. I always found so much comfort in Terrence talks, when everything seems to be lost, Terrence always gave another angle to look at it.

9E5eBqG0cds

The video is 53 minutes long, but I promise you won't waste your time.

[DNA]

I personally am of the opinion that mankind is under the influence of dark forces.
As mankind allowed huge population clusters to be ruled by small numbers geographically removed i.e. the Federal Government our manipulation was made easier.

Dark spiritual forces?
Dark ET?
Both?

I feel man left alone we would have been okay.

[Bill Ryan]

I really do appreciate all the interesting and thoughtful replies. I'd not been too sure whether to post the thread and air these ideas, as they could be interpreted as being too anti-human. I still have many thoughts about all this which I'd like to share later.
(Regarding Man as a Psychopath: the theme of the excellent documentary The Corporation was that corporations exhibit all the signs of being fully psychopathic.
See the recommended Avalon thread: THE CORPORATION: A Powerful & compelling movie (https://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?92122-THE-CORPORATION-A-Powerful-compelling-movie). I saw it in a large-screen movie theater in Edinburgh when it was first released in 2003, and I was so impacted that for a full half hour or more after walking out into the street I literally could not speak.)


Long ago, I read a science fiction short story about a newly discovered planet, uninhabited by any intelligent species, that was being colonized by humans. But soon, everything began to go wrong, and an unending sequence of accidents and disasters forced the humans to abandon the planet as being just too dangerous. The theme was that the planet had consciously repelled them, as an immune system repels a parasite or a virus.I had some fun searching for this. I failed to find the exact story I remembered, but what I did discover was that the idea of over-confident (or arrogant, or unaware) human colonists running into unforeseen problems on a new alien planet has been a very rich Sci-Fi theme.

My Google search was: sci-fi story about a planet that repels human colonists (https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-d&sca_esv=563701320&q=sci-fi+story+about+a+planet+that+repels+human+colonists&spell=1&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwi3s5fA_JqBAxXbnGoFHVp4CVgQkeECKAB6BAgIEAE), and it yielded a whole bunch of stories which I'd never heard of before. It turns out that James Cameron's Avatar theme was far from new, and one particularly interesting story was about human colonists encountering a world inhibited by intelligent plants.

:flower:

[Matthew]

Yeah we live on a planet where free water falls from the sky most places, and free food makes itself. Everything else is not Gods fault. How we screwed this up is on us.



I personally am of the opinion that mankind is under the influence of dark forces.
As mankind allowed huge population clusters to be ruled by small numbers geographically removed i.e. the Federal Government our manipulation was made easier.

Dark spiritual forces?
Dark ET?
Both?

I feel man left alone we would have been okay.

Oh yeah... good point well remembered thanks.

We can always be connected to The Spirit of God in an instant, especially each new day. Self reflection, repentance, and personal responsibility does play a part in our healing but not without remembering what you said :highfive:

[Mark (Star Mariner)]

Will nature fight back?

I think it's inevitable. Nature is far more than a clockwork mechanism of 'natural' processes. It has intelligence, it has frequency. If you fail to operate harmoniously -- in balance -- with that frequency, I believe yes, it will react, and self-correct to compensate. Perhaps in the worst case with the total elimination of that which caused the imbalance. It has happened before, and it will happen again.

Cayce on Atlantis:
51755

[christian]

If humans violate nature, if nature is conscious, and if nature has agency of its own, nature will fight back against humans violating it, most certainly in more ways than are currently understood by most people.

KATOYS_iN3wLyrics:

Some say it was a warning, some say it was a sign
I was standing right there when it came down from the sky
The way it spoke to us, you felt it from inside
Said it was up to us, up to us to decide

You've become a virus who's killing off its host
We been watching you with all of our eyes
And what you seem to value most

So much potential or so we used to say
Your greed, self-importance and your arrogance
You piss it all away

We heard a cry, we've come to intervene
You will change your ways and you will make amends
Or we will wipe this place clean

[Heart to heart]

These words were given in 2013 about the balance of Nature and Man.
I believe I may have posted in one of my earlier threads and it still makes a great deal of sense considering the topsy-turvy world we find ourselves in at this time.

I constantly remind myself and others that death is a bogeyman we have been fed as a control mechanism, when in fact we cannot die because we are eternal universal beings of energy and as such whatever is happening here on this planet it will only ever be temporary where the physical form is concerned. Our problem has always been the free will we were gifted. We have the choice to follow the way of the psychopath or the Divine.

Now to Nature and Man and their relationship.

“Understand that Man is a system doing exactly what is required to supply Nature with balance. But what is occurring is the balance required for Nature is becoming out of balance. Man is over-balancing, over-compensating for the need for Nature, so therefore Nature will over-compensate and it will bring Man into balance.

We will tell you how Nature will eventually create the balance it needs.

Look at Man as furniture. Furniture is required within a household to supply the comforts and needs of the human being.
So if the furniture is not required, or there is too much furniture in the room, Man will eventually remove the furniture or strip it down to his basic requirements. The Nature Kingdom will always do this.

So understand that Man is surplus to requirements if he pushes the boundaries of what Nature needs.
Nature is not in charge, it is just requiring Balance.

Man is not in charge and never was. Man was geared towards Thought, which allowed him to think that he is in control of many aspects of what goes on. BUT can he control the way the grass grows? Can he control the tides? Can he control the way the wind blows? Can he control the sky or the weather?

He tries but can only manage a small amount of what actually goes on.

In truth it is Nature that is in control, but not in a formatted sort of way. There is no equation or purpose as to how Nature functions. It does as it does. It blows as it blows.

It is important to understand that Nature is doing what it needs, but Man is NOT doing what it needs, Man is doing what it GREEDS. Man is geared towards self-fulfilment, self consolidating its thought pattern, creating comfort, creating GREED fulfilment.

But in truth the success behind all those things is relinquishing oneself of the boundaries of what Man creates around himself and getting back to Nature, getting back to natural forms of thinking.

This is not about giving up everything one owns, it is about ACCEPTING THAT NOTHING SHOULD GAIN CONTROL OVER OUR THOUGHT PATTERNS!

When we allow nothing to gain control over our THOUGHTS we regain control of what those thought patterns were created for in the first place, which is TO SERVE THE BALANCE OF NATURE.

This needs to be considered and understood”

How much longer we will have to tolerate the actions of the destructive psychopaths seemingly in control of our beautiful planet is up to Man when he is prepared to make a stand and say enough is enough.

[aoibhghaire]

Historically, the psychopath has been dominant in history as an unbalanced aspect, disconnecting the masses from the power of nature. Nature can fight back to address the re balance necessary for nature to evolve. However, humans when in true partnership with nature can be a very powerful force not just on a micro scale but on a macro scale as described below as a reality in a true story in our life time. This partnership with nature applied on a global scale would be a quantum leap for mankind. The resonant frequencies of the psychopath
will naturally be disrupted and phased out as the natural balanced frequency takes over.

LOST CONNECTION WITH NATURE

Because people have lost the true connection with nature, in particular, unaware of the power they have with using co creative tools in their lives they have to see this kind of life through fiction. What is displayed as fiction in books, education, TV, cinema, etc are an exaggerated form of dynamics. Miracles by initiates in some of the religious scriptures may be treated by many as god like figures where the witnesses don’t have the where for all to apply these methods. This has been demonstrated so often historically through myths and legends with the intentional objective to obliterate every vestige of the ancient forms of magic. This is particular so with the early Christianity. This disempowers people usurping the consciousnesses into a belief that is not natural. This has resulted in today’s circumstances on Earth.
Tuatha Dé Danann (Celtic civilisation) may be back in ancient times, but there are modern day pockets of these versions of this power.

https://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?110285-The-true-and-lost-history-of-the-Tuth-De-Dian-people/page2&highlight=tuatha

(see PA. Avatar 2 and Bougainvillea Eco war, Part 3)

https://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?110851-New-AVATAR-2-Movie-and-Bougainvillea-Eco-War&highlight=Avatar+Bougainvillea+Eco+war

RESPONSIBILITY OF USING ‘POWER’

Tuatha Dé Danann had a responsibility and discipline using there ‘powers’. This is a perception by others as witnessing these ‘powers’. It would appear to be a what we define as power, but actually its there developed education and knowledge of using the university of nature. The partnership with nature provided the potential of supporting not only them as a race but also the Earth as a balanced system. This is the potential to connect with nature by every human being on Earth.

One has to be very careful and clear what initiative and responsibility you take with applying different tools for change because you may be at the mercy of what’s out there. What unknowns are going to manifest, etc. If you don’t have a clear definition, a clear direction and a clear purpose in its intent it may have the aspirations of what you desire but not the right intents. It opens up to wide range of manifestations that are similar in principle too when dealing with paranormal events but now on a macro scale.

Because the mechanistic approach doesn’t entertain within the equation of nature’s inherent characteristics of being in balance, it will create manifestations that are not what humans are expecting.

Their isn’t the education and therefore understanding in our civilisation of how to balance this process. Nature knows nothing but balance. Humans may not be balanced when applying initiatives of this nature to changing the dynamics, which can create other manifestations that are ‘out of whack’.

(see PA. Avatar 2 and Bougainvillea Eco war, Part 3)
New AVATAR 2 Movie and Bougainvillea Eco War

It explains the responsibility of using dynamics and tools in modern times. It also explains how to apply them in modern times.

I discovered from my adventures in Island of Bougaineville (Papa New Guinea) that modern day community tribe of this nature do carry out what we attribute to super magic as a collective.

(See thread Avatar 2 and Bougaineville Eco war Part 3)

https://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?110851-New-AVATAR-2-Movie-and-Bougainvillea-Eco-War&highlight=Avatar+Bougainvillea+Eco+war

The transmissions of this collective magic are not told to journalist, archaeologists, curiosity seekers, tourists, etc. They are not ready to 'hear' or be interested following through to investigate due to the problem of integrating this reality. If you haven’t a wide experiential of a larger reality in your life, then this is not for you. Its rather like people that are curious meeting a spiritual avatar but not ready to open up to an integrated experience that may change and highly benefit there life. It can be uncomfortable to make a change in your life.

To truly understand the BRA in part 3 of the thread Avatar 2 and Bougaineville Eco war, you would have had to gift the tribe and link in with them in an effort to genuinely help them. The level they operate at is at a resonant frequency that can differentiate what your agenda is. Hence most organisations had the wrong agenda, not understanding the real agenda of the BRA, BRA denied any substantial bribes of up to $100M that came there way from the UN, Australian government and EU.

[Ewan]

The more we lose our connection with nature, as a species, the less we behave in harmony with the planet, the planet that provide us our LITERAL home regardless of geographical location. We take it fot granted and barely give it a thought The fact that so many people are turning to a 'back to basics' approach - such as small scale self-sufficiency and small-holdings indicate the beginning of a tipping point.

Unfortunately it would seem to be too little too late. The masses are already hypnotised in absolute fantasy, and it is far enough removed from reality to be labelled such.

I suspect the last time the species was majorly in harmony was prior to the many agricutural revolutions though I would surmise many of those agricultural revolutions spanned many centuries before the rot really crept in.

Which raises a thought in my mind that - was it indolence that gave birth to psycopathy? The appearance of artisan classes from the wealth of produce led to many more wealthy non-productive humans*.

It all comes back to the old adage regarding power. In that 'Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely'.

Is the capacity for psycopathy inherent in all humans? I think it would mostly depend on the age of the soul co-habitating the 3d form. Given this appears to be a training ground for quite young souls it is perhaps inevitable the planet would shrug off the species from time to time, leaving mere pockets of survivors to start anew.

mgS1Lwr8gq8

Edit: To add...

* Which in itself was the beginning of an imbalance amongst the species. Prior to that time everyone had a role to play in a tribal society.

The Devil makes work for idle hands.

Further edit: I've long given at least a healthy recognition to the concept of intelligent planetary bodies. Hence the Gaia theory. I think all 3-dimensional forms have an intelligence. Modern humans, in their arrogance, are one of the few species that pay scant regard to such a concept.

I think all the other life on this planet knows this inherently.

[grapevine]

What it will take for us to take action and drain the swamp ourselves I wonder? Our programming has made us unable to take effective action and we’re waiting for a Saviour to lead us. In the meantime we’re living "Animal Farm" and the Pigs are in charge.

Each generation has been cleverly divided by the ptb through the introduction of social media which has always existed in some form, albeit not quite as slick as it is now that it’s online. For instance, the introduction of Elvis in the 50s divided children from their parents, as did the Beatles in the 60s, followed closely by the Hippie cult, when patriotism took a dip, etc. and so it goes on, the divide and rule. Today’s children are very different; they all seem to have a distorted sense of entitlement and family is less important to them than their friends. A Black Mirror world.

Having to “take up arms” to stop the psychopathic element from continually dominating us isn’t a very attractive option at all. But as dominance is present in all animals’ DNA, it must be lying dormant in all of us, waiting to be triggered. "What can we do" has been asked many times by many people in many threads but there doesn't seem to be any answers.

[palehorse]

..
Is the capacity for psycopathy inherent in all humans? I think it would mostly depend on the age of the soul co-habitating the 3d form. Given this appears to be a training ground for quite young souls it is perhaps inevitable the planet would shrug off the species from time to time, leaving mere pockets of survivors to start anew.
..


Absolutely Ewan, it is well known in history when the many civs. went under, these pockets thrived through time, it will happen again at some point.





.. "What can we do" has been asked many times by many people in many threads but there doesn't seem to be any answers.


I don't know if it answers the question, but it does certainly do for me and I have been bonded to this for quite some time now. We can barely take care of ourselves and our immediate surroundings, it is no point trying to do anything beyond that, we need to have our own blueprint fully working to set the example and then it could spread around (like cells multiplying), in other words we must put it into practice into our very own lives. This connects with what Ewan wrote just above (I am quoting it), these small pockets of survivors it existed before agriculture was invented, people were more united in the past through cooperation/trade/barter/etc.. (there was no hijakckers in the game, perhaps a few but not at the level of control we see today) I would take the Bhutanese life style from last centuries as a great example of blueprint for life.

There is different ways of doing it, but in any way chosen that must be the full commitment of the individual and I don't think it has anything to do with artificial city life, it is back in nature, we are humans not robots or cyborgs.


~~~

As everything that expand too much comes to the point of burst, with civilization isn't different, those who can see it probably will stand a better chance in the future, because these things will follow its natural course and eventually will breakdown to the point of total failure, the ones with the right skills will survive, I have no doubt about that.

[Bruce G Charlton]

A comment on the "psychopath" term.

I notice that this term is being used a lot more frequently now than in the past; and I think the underlying reason is that the mainstream modern 'materialistic' ideology has no way of defining or explaining evil - and psychopathy is used as a secular substitute.

Why? Probably because, as a diagnosis, psychopathy has pretty solid pragmatic value (the term dates back into the 19th century when it was 'moral insanity') in terms of having some hereditary basis, and predictive value.

Also (perhaps) because although all societies in the past seem to have had psychopaths, at a low level of prevalence - they have almost certainly become more common in modern societies; because of several factors. One is that psychopaths have considerably more offspring than average (in modern societies - not traditional/ tribal societies. The rate of psychopathy was probably kept low because they would be killed - one way or another; and their offspring would not survive), and the condition is significantly hereditary. Also that there are more niches in modern societies where psychopaths can thrive, and which perhaps encourage mild psychopaths to become more extreme.

Psychopathy is something that the majority of people can agree is a bad thing, because it is selfish rather than altruistic, and seeks immediate gratification rather than long term benefit... On the other hand, this also gives the idea some appeal - and there is a kind of envy of someone who can operate successfully in such a fashion - successfully exploiting other people to satisfy their own wants. Such characters are quite often an archetypal anti-hero in modern media and society (e.g. a life dedicated to "sex and drugs and rock and roll" - so popular an aspiration for adolescents and young adults - is basically validating a psychopathic life).

But psychopathy does not really solve the problem of evil, because it just kicks the can a bit further down the road. After all, why is psychopathy regarded evil? Because it is selfish and short-termist - yes, but then why is selfishness a bad thing (if you can get away with it)? And why is long-termism better - when nobody really knows what will happen in the future, and in the long term we will all be dead?

And, if psychopathy is bad because it cares nothing for the group - then why is the group supposed to be more important than the individual? (And which group is the most important, and why - of all the many groups of which we are members?)

My point is that the concept of psychopathy cannot replace the need for an understanding of evil; and when it is used for that purpose, then the concept has serious problems - and is itself being used in the mainstream discourse to advance the totalitarian/ globalist agenda.

[Bill Ryan]

This is sort of off-topic on this thread, but many might be able to see the connection.


I'm as sure as I can be that ETs throughout this galaxy (and the billions of others!) hold life in the very highest regard — maybe almost as a kind of sacred phenomenon. One can fairly easily appreciate this strong possibility with this analogy.

99.9999999999+++ % of the universe is lifeless, inanimate matter, separated by immense distances that humans can barely conceive. Only on some relatively small planets (small compared with stars, nebulae, and the like) would life ever develop and prosper.

It's a little like a vast, near-lifeless rocky desert on earth, hundreds of miles across, where if one knows exactly where to look one might find the occasional tiny group of plants, or a tiny colony of small animals. The rarity makes this life very special, potentially always in danger of extinction.

ETs, advanced enough to travel freely and explore all this, would be fully aware of the sanctity and the wonder of life, wherever they discovered it arose. But in contrast — and back to topic here — humans on Earth (collectively) take it for granted, are spiritually disconnected from it, abuse it, destroy it, and have little or no respect for it.

~~~

I spoke to a very spiritual friend a few weeks ago who told me that on his mountain property these days he finds it hard to cut down a tree. I totally understood.

I replied that I have trouble cutting the grass. That wasn't a joke. I let my wild garden grow as much as I can without it becoming a major practical problem. Grass usually reaches a natural maximum height of 1-2 feet, and then stops. In that tall grassy richness lives a multitude of little insects and other animals, and that's their own home, right next to mine. I do my best to coexist with it, and I'm always aware of it.

In the mountains where I hike, usually high above the treeline and in quite a fragile ecosystem, there's an abundance of the tiniest alpine flowers, some just a couple of millimeters in size. I tread carefully and respectfully and always strive to avoid injuring them.

Just to illustrate this long wordy post, here's what I mean. This photo was taken at 14,500 ft in the middle of a whole large field of rocks. When I see these little oases of life I kind of pay tribute to them, their resilience, and their beauty, and then I quietly pass by.

:heart:

https://projectavalon.net/flowers_at_the_summit.jpg

[Ravenlocke]

I think this story belongs here ?

https://www.newsweek.com/elephant-kills-woman-returns-funeral-tramples-corpse-india-1715075

Elephant Kills Woman Then Returns to Funeral and Tramples Corpse
By Robyn White On 6/13/22 at 3:32 AM EDT
An elephant that killed a woman in India returned to her funeral and trampled on her corpse, local police have said.

The 70-year-old woman, Maya Murmu, was attacked by the wild elephant as she walked to collect water in Odisha's Mayurbhanj district, Indian news outlet The Print reported.

The elephant had strayed from the Dalma Wildlife Sanctuary, which lies about 10 miles from the city of Jamshedpur.

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After the elephant attacked Murmu, she was rushed to hospital, but she succumbed to her injuries, Lopamudra Nayak, an inspector at the Rasgovindpur police station, told The Print.

Later, as family members gathered to perform a funeral for Murmu, the wild tusker appeared once again.

It approached the pyre and grabbed the body, The Print reported. The elephant then trampled on her body again, and threw it away before fleeing.

The funeral was completed a few hours later.

Duncan McNair, a lawyer and founder of conservation charity Save The Asian Elephants, told Newsweek that this incident is a reminder that although gentle creatures, elephants can be "dangerous and deadly."

However, McNair said these incidents rarely happen without the elephant having been provoked in someway. "These endangered elephants can be deadly dangerous, particularly when provoked or abused," he said.

He said that Asian elephants are particularly subject to "torture and stabbing" for easy use in the tourism industry.

"Elephants are generally benign, and passive ... they don't rush out of nowhere to attack people that pose no threat to their safety, or babies or to anything like that," he said. "[This incident] is surprising because it shows no provocation of the elephant..."

McNair said the elephant coming back and handling the body during the body, could be down to their "extraordinary cognitive abilities."

"It's just possible that if [the elephant] was in proximity still at the time of the funeral, and that's not clear, that it will have recognised the remains. And it may have seen or smelled that and it may have associated that woman with some catastrophe to it or it's herd. That is quite possible," he said.

Conflict on the Rise

Human and elephant conflict is on the rise across the world because the loss of the animals' natural habitat is forcing elephants into closer proximity with residential areas.

Climate change is also making life harder for elephants. As the temperature increases, water sources are more likely to dry up, causing elephants to hunt out new resources, and this can cause them to come into contact with humans. Odisha's Mayurbhanj district has suffered severe droughts in recent years.

Fragmented habitats can cause "crop raiding" instances, when elephants stray onto farmlands in search of food and water, ruining growing crops as they do so.

In May, an Indian farmer was trampled to death by a wild elephant. The elephant and its herd had wandered onto farmlands.

The herd of 11 elephants strayed into the field near a village in Andhra Pradesh's Chittoor district during the night. The man who was attacked had been guarding the field, The Hindu Times reported.

The farmer died instantly after being trampled, the news outlet said.

While they are known for being gentle giants, elephants can attack humans when they feel vulnerable, or if their territory is being threatened.

According to the World Wildlife Fund (WWF), these kinds of instances can cause elephants to be seen as a nuisance. In one 2001 case, 60 elephants were found dead—poisoned by farmers—across parts of India and Sumatra.

It still isn't clear why the elephant that attacked Maya Murmu had strayed from the Dalma Wildlife Sanctuary.

The sanctuary, which operates as a safari park, is "very much favored" by Asian elephants because of the abundance of water within it, "even during summer," according to the Forest Department.

[Ravenlocke]

Is this what nature will have to fight against if there’s any nature left to start with?

https://twitter.com/Reuters/status/1700119290899501445

1700119290899501445

[Dennis Leahy]

Warms my heart, Bill. I used to do a lot of nature photography, and of course, what I wanted to photograph was invariably off-trail. That meant having to really embody the phrase, "take nothing but pictures; leave nothing but footprints", and actually take it up a notch to trying not to leave footprints, either. The plants, lichens, and mosses have struggled to spring forth from the surface of and cracks in the rocks, and a careless step could injure or kill them - not exactly a great legacy for a nature photographer.

And, I agree that Earth is an amazing gem among planets, and the myriad life forms here are likely why at least some aliens come here.

Back to topic, we humans are actually 'ranchers' with billions and billions of organisms living in and on us, and our colonies are constantly in a battle for supremacy. Our immune system sends microscopic bad guys to Jesus all the time. The Earth is a big complex organism, and certainly doing what it can to kill off or clean up its bad guys too.



This is sort of off-topic on this thread, but many might be able to see the connection.


I'm as sure as I can be that ETs throughout this galaxy (and the billions of others!) hold life in the very highest regard — maybe almost as a kind of sacred phenomenon. One can fairly easily appreciate this strong possibility with this analogy.

99.9999999999+++ % of the universe is lifeless, inanimate matter, separated by immense distances that humans can barely conceive. Only on some relatively small planets (small compared with stars, nebulae, and the like) would life ever develop and prosper.

It's a little like a vast, near-lifeless rocky desert on earth, hundreds of miles across, where if one knows exactly where to look one might find the occasional tiny group of plants, or a tiny colony of small animals. The rarity makes this life very special, potentially always in danger of extinction.

ETs, advanced enough to travel freely and explore all this, would be fully aware of the sanctity and the wonder of life, wherever they discovered it arose. But in contrast — and back to topic here — humans on Earth (collectively) take it for granted, are spiritually disconnected from it, abuse it, destroy it, and have little or no respect for it.

~~~

I spoke to a very spiritual friend a few weeks ago who told me that on his mountain property these days he finds it hard to cut down a tree. I totally understood.

I replied that I have trouble cutting the grass. That wasn't a joke. I let my wild garden grow as much as I can without it becoming a major practical problem. Grass usually reaches a natural maximum height of 1-2 feet, and then stops. In that tall grassy richness lives a multitude of little insects and other animals, and that's their own home, right next to mine. I do my best to coexist with it, and I'm always aware of it.

In the mountains where I hike, usually high above the treeline and in quite a fragile ecosystem, there's an abundance of the tiniest alpine flowers, some just a couple of millimeters in size. I tread carefully and respectfully and always strive to avoid injuring them.

Just to illustrate this long wordy post, here's what I mean. This photo was taken at 14,500 ft in the middle of a whole large field of rocks. When I see these little oases of life I kind of pay tribute to them, their resilience, and their beauty, and then I quietly pass by.

:heart:

https://projectavalon.net/flowers_at_the_summit.jpg

[Isserley]

@Bill - you have trouble cutting the grass?

I have trouble beliving that :chuckle:.. maybe you've mixed up beeing lazy with beeing emphatic towards grass? :bigsmile:

Based on everything above and my free estimation, I can say I'm a borderline psychopath considering I've killed hundreds of mosquitoes (this summer alone) and enjoyed it.. also I mow the lawn every other week - I have to admit I do not hate that act either.. :chuckle:

:Back to seriousness: no emoji for that..

[shaberon]

There is also the information from the Vedas concerning the Yugas that is very informative, though controversy exists as to where exactly we are now in that cosmic cycle.
I think, by all the signs, that we are in the end of the Kali Yuga and will be ascending out of that into the next age, characterized by growing Light and Wisdom, though that ascension process takes a very long time


This information is not in the Vedas; not in the manner presented.

A Vedic Yuga is only five years, oriented towards "smaller cycles", all based on what is within a human lifespan.

The Four Yugas such as Kali Yuga are a much later derivation showing signs of influence from Hellenistic astrology, from which, around our year 500, calculations were applied to fix the beginning of Kali Yuga at 3,102 B. C. E.

Most evidence suggests the calamities were noticeably later, around 1,900 B. C. E., which would have combined the factors of war, flood (such as the submergence of Dwarka), and fire (a worldwide drought said to be on a 4,200 year cycle, which dried out the Sarasvati River).


From what we can tell, human population was pretty small during the last Ice Age around 10,000 B. C. E., and it may have poked out and developed in various ways as the ice receded, notably there was an Indus Valley from ca. 8,000-2,000 B. C. E. composed of brick cities without signs of central authority, like a main palace with a big military yard.

For combined reasons, it died out, and I am not sure what to say about the moral failures of man versus the rest of nature. Human issues reflect themselves in war, the spread of disease, and some environmental problems, but if there is a 4,200 year drought cycle, I am not sure we should call it a "punishment".

Perhaps the largest known population reduction was the Black Plague, and plague germs are natural. Does this mean that humans farmed them and boosted their spread, or, somehow it was the will of the plague to use humans as its servants in so doing?

Wisdom in part is the ability to understand consequences of our actions, to which, "clean up the pollution" at its source may be a more useful outlook than "climate change science".

There is evidently a lack of doing the right thing to begin with, and then concern about how exactly the consequences may manifest.

[onawah]

There is a lot of information about the Yugas and the source of that theory here:
https://popularvedicscience.com/history/yugas/when-does-kali-yuga-end/#:~:text=For%20this%20reason%2C%20the%20Vedas%20give
such as:

WHEN DOES KALI YUGA END? SYMPTOMS OF THE AGE OF KALI
last update JULY 30, 2022

WHEN DOES KALI YUGA END? SYMPTOMS OF THE AGE OF KALI
Kali yuga, the age of quarrel and hypocrisy, is a time in the Vedic universal cycle when the human population experiences tremendous conflict and confusion. How long will Kali Yuga last? Kali yuga will end in approximately 858,000 years. At present, we are just over 5,000 years into Kali yuga, and the Puranas describe the duration of Kali yuga as 432,000 years of Bhu-mandala, or 864,000 of our Earth years.
The Vedas describe that there are four ages: Satya Yuga, Treta Yuga, Dvapara Yuga, and Kali Yuga — and all together these four comprise one full yuga cycle, just as the fours seasons make up a year. One thousand Yuga cycles is equal to a day of Brahma, also known as a kalpa.

In this article we discuss Kali Yuga, the Iron Age.

The Duration of Kali Yuga
Even though the passing of time is uniform through the universe, the Vedas explain that various regions within the universe experience time differently due to the phenomenon of time dilation. For example, one year in the realm of Svarga is approximately equal to 720 solar years on our planet Earth.

Do you know that modern science is finally catching up with the predictions of Vedas and Yuga system?
For this reason, the Vedas give two different measurements for the duration of Kali Yuga. In years of the devas, Kali Yuga lasts 1,200 years, and on Earth, it lasts 432,000 years.

(So in other words, the passage of time is relative to the experience of the being experiencing it, which is perhaps a part of what Einstein actually was getting at when he posited that "time is relative".
This same source also references a book on such themes):


Do you know that modern science is finally catching up with the predictions of Vedas and Yuga system? Read the most comprehensive book on yugas, vedic time and puranic history.Breakthrough Book on Vedic History
The Big Bang and The Sages : Modern Science Catches Up With The Ancient Purāṇas
by Madhavendra Puri Das
"Could anyone imagine that ancient texts stated the age of the solar system and the universe to within 0.1% of the modern scientific values? Neither could these scientists, before reading this book:
“It is hard to find an author who is expert in widely separated branches of science, but Chhabra and O'Rourke have dexterously sewn together state-of-the-art discoveries in five fields: cosmology, astrophysics, geology, paleontology, and embryology.”
– ¬Prof. S. Ghosh, Columbia University
“This book illustrates how the Puranas provide both a microscopic and telescopic view of the physical world from which modern science can learn and benefit.”
– Prof. R. Buyya, University of Melbourne
“The authors bury skeptics under an avalanche of well-researched facts. A real tour-de-force of scientific expertise.”
– Prof. K. Pahan, Rush University
“You have synthesized challenging material from at least four different fields into a thought provoking and compelling vindication of the Puranic cosmo-chronological order.”
– A Saha, Smithsonian Museum of American History
https://www.amazon.com/Big-Bang-Sages-Science-Catches-ebook/dp/B08S5W5XXN?crid=1O8Y5RJX362UZ&keywords=The+BIg+bang+and+the+sages&qid=1684956007&sprefix=the+big+bang+and+the+sages,aps,140&sr=8-1&linkCode=sl1&tag=vedicpi-20&linkId=a820d1522c053f81df5536ac312dd99b&language=en_US&ref_=as_li_ss_tl




There is also the information from the Vedas concerning the Yugas that is very informative, though controversy exists as to where exactly we are now in that cosmic cycle.
I think, by all the signs, that we are in the end of the Kali Yuga and will be ascending out of that into the next age, characterized by growing Light and Wisdom, though that ascension process takes a very long time


This information is not in the Vedas; not in the manner presented.

A Vedic Yuga is only five years, oriented towards "smaller cycles", all based on what is within a human lifespan.

The Four Yugas such as Kali Yuga are a much later derivation showing signs of influence from Hellenistic astrology, from which, around our year 500, calculations were applied to fix the beginning of Kali Yuga at 3,102 B. C. E.

Most evidence suggests the calamities were noticeably later, around 1,900 B. C. E., which would have combined the factors of war, flood (such as the submergence of Dwarka), and fire (a worldwide drought said to be on a 4,200 year cycle, which dried out the Sarasvati River).

[Bill Ryan]

@Bill - you have trouble cutting the grass?

Yep. Not a joke. I also have trouble cutting back branches of trees and shrubs when they become overgrown. I'm not lazy, but I hate to do it. These are living beings. A Native American, an Aborigine, or a San Bushman, would understand.

Some readers will know about Cleve Backster's experiments when he wired up a philodendron to a lie detector. When another person walked into the room who had just mowed his lawn, the philodendron went crazy. It was like the plant sensed this other man was a murderer.

Some of his story is here (https://archive.nytimes.com/www.nytimes.com/news/the-lives-they-lived/2013/12/21/cleve-backster): (We also have an Avalon thread titled The Plants Respond - An Interview With Cleve Backster (https://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?70238-The-Plants-Respond-An-Interview-With-Cleve-Backster).)

He talked to plants. And they talked back.

https://static01.nyt.com/images/2013/12/29/magazine/29backster/29backster-square640.jpg

Grover Cleveland Backster Jr. could always spot a liar. As he liked to tell it, he served in the Navy during World War II, but his interest in deception soon led him to the Army Counter-Intelligence Corps, where he specialized in hypno- and narco-interrogation — a.k.a. “truth serums.” Then, in 1948, he joined the C.I.A., where, he claimed, he founded the agency’s polygraph program.

A decade later, Backster moved to New York and then opened the Backster School of Lie Detection, where he taught N.Y.P.D. detectives and F.B.I. agents. He testified in courtrooms and before Congress, and his famed Backster Zone Comparison Technique — a methodology for conducting polygraphs — is still widely used. Backster’s success made him a law-enforcement legend, but he was always happier proving people innocent. “I like to think of the polygraph,” he once said, “as a truth detector.”

But this was all a prelude to Backster’s real life’s work, which began in the early morning hours of Feb. 2, 1966. Backster had been up all night in his office on West 46th Street and had just poured himself a cup of coffee when he noticed a houseplant, a Dracaena fragrans his secretary bought to brighten the office. On a lark, Backster, who had a playful streak that belied his military background (he studied astrology, dabbled with LSD and supposedly spent a summer as a stunt diver in a circus), decided to hook the plant up to his lie-detection machine.

In human subjects, a polygraph measures three things: pulse, respiration rate and galvanic skin response, otherwise known as perspiration. If you’re worried about being caught in a lie, your levels will spike or dip. Backster wanted to induce a similar anxiety in the plant, so he decided to set one of its leaves on fire. But before he could even get a match, the polygraph registered an intense reaction on the part of the Dracaena. To Backster, the implication was as indisputable as it was unbelievable. Not only had the plant demonstrated fear — it had also read his mind.

Backster concluded that plants had some heretofore undiscovered sense (he called it “primary perception”) that could detect and respond to human thoughts and emotions. When he publicized his findings, the so-called Backster effect became a pop-culture hit. There was a TV program hosted by Leonard Nimoy and a best-selling book, “The Secret Life of Plants,” inspired by Backster’s research. Backster was interviewed by Johnny Carson, Art Linkletter, Merv Griffin and David Frost. Even Backster’s old employers at the C.I.A. investigated the possibility of human-plant communication.

Scientists, however, were less convinced. No one could reproduce Backster’s results — a problem Backster explained away with a variety of post-hoc qualifiers. (A lettuce leaf didn’t respond to harmful stimuli? It probably shut down to protect itself.) As a result, Backster mainly worked outside the establishment, publishing his findings in outlets like The International Journal of Parapsychology, Volume X.

And yet — publicly, at least — his faith never wavered. Backster went on experimenting until the end, expanding his theory of nonhuman consciousness to encompass chicken eggs and even sperm, forever finding more proof of what he called the “fundamental attunement between living things.” He never married, preferring the company of his Siamese cats, and he never again performed experiments that burned plants. If the pseudoscience of his second act retroactively called into question the science of his first — after all, what is lie detection but mind-reading by another name? — Backster remained unbowed. “Such high resistance to new ideas does not concern me,” he once said. “I have a truly wonderful ally: Mother Nature.”

[Pris]

.
.
I am Nature fighting back. I am not "mankind", I am me and I come from a position of deep love and compassion for myself and for all life and all existence. When something threatens that, I fight back.

[Isserley]

Grover Cleveland Backster Jr. could always spot a liar. As he liked to tell it, he served in the Navy during World War II..

The fact that plants have consciousness is clear to me, but one can not argue that plant life and animal life are radically different. You know - animals and especially mammals scream when you hurt them - same as humans - there is a reason for that.
First of all a plant is not an individual. If you cut it in two, it doesn’t die, it just divides. In the plant world, reproduction often occurs through a process of division.
By making all life forms equal, the proponents of a plant ethic are causing harm to the animal rights cause, whether they mean to or not. If everything suffers the same, if man cannot go without inflicting suffering on other living beings, why worry about animals? Humans?

In my opinion there is a big difference in the suffering of plants and animals, it is visible with the naked eye. What is not visible to the naked eye is subject to speculation, and when everything is added up and taken away - man has to live and feed himself.

Going back to the quote above - participating in war is a big NO for me. There is no such reason.
It's not that I'm belittling the suffering of plants in this way, it's just that it can't be compared to the suffering and karma generated by war..

[9ideon]

Yep. Not a joke. I also have trouble cutting back branches of trees and shrubs when they become overgrown. I'm not lazy, but I hate to do it. These are living beings. A Native American, an Aborigine, or a San Bushman, would understand.


I can relate, although I have to cut stuff a couple times during summer, I try and leave it all to chance most of the time, Cats love it, they are runnin' round happy as feck (not my Cats, they're indoor). Johan's seen my jungle, lol ,he almost got lost in my front yard, heheheh (not really).

Unfortunately the jungle has to be trimmed again soon, this time a little more drastic, be waiting for frost time on that one.

[Innocent Warrior]

Well this likely isn't going to make sense and I don't have the time to defend and explain what I write here but I think it's worth adding this perspective to this thread anyway. Some food for thought at least.

We are not separate from Earth as human beings. Earth and all her inhabitants are one organic system. She is us and we are her. So no, she would never act to repel us, she knows our nature and our situation better than we do. However, she could flip the plates and kill the lot of us in a weekend, and would if she had to, not to protect herself but to protect and preserve us as a species.

This realm isn't as it appears, humans aren't as they appear, and if you see the material realm as the resulting creation of what the true cause is then this perspective may begin to make sense. Remember what Tesla said about the secrets of the universe, its true and a great pointer to the true nature of this realm.

Hand on heart, I swear the adoration we have for this planet is mutual. Connect with her without judging humanity and see. Judging humanity is judging her. Start with the plants, honestly they actually seem like the grown ups in comparison to us humans. At the very least they can teach us the love that is inherent in nature. We are so lost in that department and it's the plants that have taught me that, by example.

[Jamie]

Well this likely isn't going to make sense and I don't have the time to defend and explain...

We are not separate from Earth as human beings. Earth and all her inhabitants are one organic system. She is us and we are her.

I think the majority of us here on PA thinks it makes perfect sense. :thumbsup:

[Tintin]

@Bill - you have trouble cutting the grass?

Yep. Not a joke. I also have trouble cutting back branches of trees and shrubs when they become overgrown. I'm not lazy, but I hate to do it. These are living beings. A Native American, an Aborigine, or a San Bushman, would understand.


I've been giving a lot of detailed thought as to how to respond to this most interesting of threads and am still formulating. Before I do..

A question: How do you see the predator in the grass, if you allow the grass to grow too tall? Grass is the most resilient of plants, and doesn't die when you cut it back.

This goes to the heart of nature and nurture

[Harmony]

@Bill - you have trouble cutting the grass?

Yep. Not a joke. I also have trouble cutting back branches of trees and shrubs when they become overgrown. I'm not lazy, but I hate to do it. These are living beings. A Native American, an Aborigine, or a San Bushman, would understand.


I've been giving a lot of detailed thought as to how to respond to this most interesting of threads and am still formulating. Before I do..

A question: How do you see the predator in the grass, if you allow the grass to grow too tall? Grass is the most resilient of plants, and doesn't die when you cut it back.

This goes to the heart of nature and nurture


I have donkeys and wild life eating the pastures where I live. The dropping the animals leave are broken down by several kinds of insects and bacteria etc. that feed the soil and it goes back into the grass along with the sunshine and rain. It i the cycle in balance being a symbiotic give and take, the in and out breath of the earth. I think when it is disturbed and man has not taken the time to connect and work with the earth cycles in a connected loving way it is then that we get into trouble.:sun:

[9ideon]

A question: How do you see the predator in the grass, if you allow the grass to grow too tall?


1-) Use a Drone
2-) Sent your Wife/Man ahead
3-) Use one of your Kids (if applicable)
4-) Sent Joe Biden (Although he might get lost)
5-) Use a Low, like runnin' Bulls low frequency pitch in order to scare away Satan (snakes), lol, all the other predators will either chase or scare away from Satan
6-) Sent in Hitlenskyy
7-) Direct Macron, Trudeau and Rutte to scare all the other Snakes Away
8-) Have Bearbock give a speech
9-) Avoid entering the grass all together

[Dennis Leahy]

My spirit guides are pranksters or psychological masters. With me just having declared in this public thread that I escort as many critters outside as I can, and even with my disclaimer about cockroaches, last night as I was about to go to bed, I spotted a large critter ON MY NIGHTSTAND.

It was partially obscured by some papers and my reading glasses, and I thought it was a large wasp or cicada killer. I went into rescue mode, trying to figure out how to catch it without getting stung or breaking my reading glasses. (A typical thing I use for bees and wasps is a crumpled damp paper towel.) Then, it moved, and I realized it was a cockroach! Not a little German cockroach (sorry Germans, I didn't name the species), but rather a big "palmetto bug", as those in the southeastern US states would call it.

Holy sh!t did my demeanor change! I went batsh!t crazy! My pulse rate doubled as adrenaline shot through me. As it scurried off the table top and down the side to the floor, I armed myself with a shoe and became a frantic madman, smacking the floor repeatedly, just missing it. One shoe smack must have been very close, and the puff of wind it generated shot the 6-legged enemy combatant off to the side somewhere. It just disappeared, increasing my panic and rage. I became Jack Nicholson in The Shining, but with a shoe instead of an axe, as I moved objects on the floor, shoes and the stuff knocked off my nightstand, hunting the shiny brown monster. Ahhhh, there it is!

When it saw me see it, it bolted. Not in a straight line, but in a complex zigzag, like a Heisman trophy-winning football halfback avoiding tacklers. I swung my ax, er, I mean shoe, a few more times, the final blow sending the home invader to the White Light.

I gave it a proper burial, wrapped in toilet paper and sent off to Valhalla - down the toilet. (Palmetto bugs are also called by the euphemism, "water bugs", so it was appropriate.)

Afterwords, I was amazed at how much adrenaline was racing through my arteries to my muscles, and realized it was about the same as when I have caught and held poisonous snakes. I knew it was gross overreaction to a (honestly, harmless) bug, but logic didn't immediately dissipate the adrenaline. It took quite a while to get back to a calm state to go to sleep. I was shaking my head and laughing at myself for the overreaction, as well as laughing at any notion of being spiritually evolved enough to "live and let live." I thought about the big cockroach that had awakened me one night in Costa Rica, as it scurried across my face and chest, and wondered if that incident was responsible for imprinting this inordinately overblown and unwarranted physical reaction. I thought about this Avalon thread, and knew I had to bust myself (or God knows what my spirit guides would do to me next!)

[Pris]

.

My spirit guides are pranksters or psychological masters. With me just having declared in this public thread that I escort as many critters outside as I can, and even with my disclaimer about cockroaches, last night as I was about to go to bed, I spotted a large critter ON MY NIGHTSTAND.

It was partially obscured by some papers and my reading glasses, and I thought it was a large wasp or cicada killer. I went into rescue mode, trying to figure out how to catch it without getting stung or breaking my reading glasses. (A typical thing I use for bees and wasps is a crumpled damp paper towel.) Then, it moved, and I realized it was a cockroach! Not a little German cockroach (sorry Germans, I didn't name the species), but rather a big "palmetto bug", as those in the southeastern US states would call it.

Holy sh!t did my demeanor change! I went batsh!t crazy! My pulse rate doubled as adrenaline shot through me. As it scurried off the table top and down the side to the floor, I armed myself with a shoe and became a frantic madman, smacking the floor repeatedly, just missing it. One shoe smack must have been very close, and the puff of wind it generated shot the 6-legged enemy combatant off to the side somewhere. It just disappeared, increasing my panic and rage. I became Jack Nicholson in The Shining, but with a shoe instead of an axe, as I moved objects on the floor, shoes and the stuff knocked off my nightstand, hunting the shiny brown monster. Ahhhh, there it is!

When it saw me see it, it bolted. Not in a straight line, but in a complex zigzag, like a Heisman trophy-winning football halfback avoiding tacklers. I swung my ax, er, I mean shoe, a few more times, the final blow sending the home invader to the White Light.

I gave it a proper burial, wrapped in toilet paper and sent off to Valhalla - down the toilet. (Palmetto bugs are also called by the euphemism, "water bugs", so it was appropriate.)

Afterwords, I was amazed at how much adrenaline was racing through my arteries to my muscles, and realized it was about the same as when I have caught and held poisonous snakes. I knew it was gross overreaction to a (honestly, harmless) bug, but logic didn't immediately dissipate the adrenaline. It took quite a while to get back to a calm state to go to sleep. I was shaking my head and laughing at myself for the overreaction, as well as laughing at any notion of being spiritually evolved enough to "live and let live." I thought about the big cockroach that had awakened me one night in Costa Rica, as it scurried across my face and chest, and wondered if that incident was responsible for imprinting this inordinately overblown and unwarranted physical reaction. I thought about this Avalon thread, and knew I had to bust myself (or God knows what my spirit guides would do to me next!)


ROFLMAO!! That was hilarious, Dennis! Made me feel better about myself when I go after the little fat fruit flies we're getting now in the kitchen and bathroom. It's like an impulse. I wet my hand and snatch them out of the air (or at least try to). There, those little critters cross the line for me. It's the same when I find ants inside the home. (I always say/think/feel "I'm sorry".) Mostly everyone else, I carefully collect with my "bug catchers" (usually a container with a piece of cardboard, a feather duster sometimes works when they're on the ceiling) and transport them outside and set them free. I found a very tiny earthworm had come in with carrots from the garden the other day... discovered him later in the container hours later and I made sure to take him back to the garden, dig a wee hole, and put some moist soil over top. With the spiders, I often give them a drink of water before I take them out. They're so damn cute the way they carefully lean into the water droplet with their hind legs way back kind of like a giraffe at the water hole...

Back to the question of plants and their feelings and such. Well, I'm a vegan. I have to eat something. It's been great having started my own garden in the last couple of years so I've been able to pull off some zucchinis, green beans, berries, apricots and such. I yank out the weeds until there's no point because they take over lol. There's a feeling in my mind that I'm sorry to the plant I pull out as I do it... Overall, I get a wonderful feeling from my garden. They know I gotta do what I gotta do. The fruit and veggies are meant to be eaten anyway and would just fall off and rot (or spread their seed) if I don't eat them. The plants want me to eat what they produce... to help spread their seeds. I don't get the sense they mind at all. They like that I grew them to begin with and that I really, really appreciate them. I'm always thrilled and impressed with their beauty and design, grateful to them all. When I have to cut branches off a tree or a bush I basically put out the vibe that I have to to keep things under control and do my best not to butcher anyone. After I'm done and the grass is nicely trimmed and the garden is upkept, I get a sense of mutual appreciation. Neglect feels sad... Nature loves to be appreciated, noticed, just like each one of us loves to feel appreciated and noticed... Am I right? It's a kind of harmony. That's just how it feels to me. It's a good feeling.

[Isserley]

:sarcastic:
@Dennis - this made me laugh so hard.. that's exactly how I feel when I have a close encounter with unwanted bugs. As if there is a crocodile in the room and not a roach :loco:

So the big question is: what of semi harmful pests -> bed bugs, fleas, flies, mosquitoes, cockroaches, fire ants..?

Is one permitted to rid one’s home and neighborhood of them, or must one endure them, even when they are unsanitary or serve as a vector for serious infectious disease?

And what about bacteria and internal parasites? Is one permitted to use antibiotics?

And what about the autoimmune system? Doesn’t the autoimmune system kill foreign living organisms all the time?

So with every breath we take we are abusing some sentient being. If it is about intention - good intention creates good karma and vice versa, will you allow yourself to be eaten by a lion so that lion can feed her cubs or will you kill the lion in self defence?

I am raising a series of questions and resolving none because the more one examines the whole topic the more problematic it becomes.

[Mark (Star Mariner)]

So with every breath we take we are abusing some sentient being.

That's what Jainists (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jainism) believe. They are so extremely earnest in their belief that all life is sacred they wear face-masks (long before covid) so they don't breathe in and thus destroy living microbes.

A little nuts in my view. Microbes may have awareness but they aren't 'sentient'.

Symbiosis is the basis of our existence. The circle of life dictates that in order for one thing to live another must perish.

When it comes to things that are harmful, like 'vermin', I think it is entirely acceptable to act in accordance with what serves our best and lasting interests.

I don't know if others read and follow the Wisdom of Silver Birch...personally, I place huge stock in it, and have tried to live my life by the spiritual principles he presents. For what it's worth I looked up this question and this was his answer. It's all about motive, and degree. (this coming from 'the other side').

A: Is it wrong to spray with insecticides to try to prevent malaria, etc?

Q: Of course you must have respect for all life, but this is a question of motive and degree. If you have conditions where, due to certain circumstances, there are the kinds of insects that cause disease, then your motive for using sprays is a good one. Respect for life must be tempered with the necessity of ensuring there are conditions in which it can flourish. Similarly, if you have houses infested with bugs, it is easier to spray and get rid of them if your motive is to improve the health of those who dwell there.

[Pris]

.

:sarcastic:
@Dennis - this made me laugh so hard.. that's exactly how I feel when I have a close encounter with unwanted bugs. As if there is a crocodile in the room and not a roach :loco:

So the big question is: what of semi harmful pests -> bed bugs, fleas, flies, mosquitoes, cockroaches, fire ants..?

Is one permitted to rid one’s home and neighborhood of them, or must one endure them, even when they are unsanitary or serve as a vector for serious infectious disease?

And what about bacteria and internal parasites? Is one permitted to use antibiotics?

And what about the autoimmune system? Doesn’t the autoimmune system kill foreign living organisms all the time?

So with every breath we take we are abusing some sentient being. If it is about intention - good intention creates good karma and vice versa, will you allow yourself to be eaten by a lion so that lion can feed her cubs or will you kill the lion in self defence?

I am raising a series of questions and resolving none because the more one examines the whole topic the more problematic it becomes.


Interesting thoughts...

With regard to this topic, the idea of something being "problematic" is very subjective. If you want it to be a problem, it will be.

"Is one permitted..." Permitted by whom? I've pretty much come to terms with things around me. I don't believe in "karma", I decide and live by my decisions. Some things I have clear boundaries with. Like you say, our immune system is on attack mode all the time. We'd be dead if it wasn't constantly protecting us and killing/neutralizing things.

If I were ever in such a position with a lion... Hell no, I wouldn't allow the lion to eat me (lol). I have just as much right to live as anything else. If I had no choice, I'd kill the lion and then find homes for the cubs.

(We caught a baby house mouse once in the coldest days of winter. She was caught by her tail in a trap. It was too cold to let the mouse go. So, we kept her -- bent tail and all -- as a pet for the couple of years that mice normally live. Note: we abhor the use of mouse traps, but it was a family of six that we had to take out one by one (took out five). So horrible, but they were getting into everything. It was the result of other people in the building where we used to live... not containing their garbage properly that attracted the mice to begin with. After that terrible ordeal with the poor mice [we argued with the people repeatedly], we finally got them to store their garbage properly. No more mice.)

[shaberon]

For this reason, the Vedas give two different measurements for the duration of Kali Yuga. In years of the devas, Kali Yuga lasts 1,200 years, and on Earth, it lasts 432,000 years.


This is the part that is not accurate. Those cycles are not in any Veda (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yuga_Cycle#:~:text=It%20is%20theorized%20that%20the,absence%20in%20the%20former%20writings.):


It is theorized that the concept of the four yugas originated some time after the compilation of the four Vedas, but prior to the rest of the Hindu texts, based on the concept's absence in the former writings. It is believed that the four yugas—Krita (Satya), Treta, Dvapara, and Kali—are named after throws of an Indian game of long dice, marked with 4-3-2-1 respectively.




A Vedic Yuga (https://www.indica.today/research/time-scales-yuga-puranas/) is Five Years:



The concept of five-year Yuga cycle, namely, Samvatsara, Paritvatsara, Iḍāvatsara, Anuvātsara, Iḍāvatsara (Vatsara) is prevalent from Vedic times. (Taittirīya Brāhmaṇa III. 10 4. 1)

Vajasaneya Samhita, 27.75; Taittriya Aranyka 4.19; and Satapatha Brahmana 8.1.48 also repeat this idea. This is known as Māgha cycle of Vedāṅga Jyotiṣa of sage Lagada (around 1350 BCE).

The five-year Yuga cycle starts with the asterism Śraviṣṭā in the month
of Māgha when the northern movement of Uttarāyana begins; hence the
term Māgha cycle. In this short Yuga cycle, a particular deity is considered as adhi-devatā of each year and in charge of different rituals.




Part of the reason for this is a natural clock.

As if it had Venus and Jupiter for hands.

The five years is one Venus transit, Jupiter is twelve, twelve years or approximately one decade is generally held to be the "biggest" unit of time a person thinks in, and, one whole clock cycle, 5 x 12 = 60 years, which is not too much to ask for one life span, although two revolutions is.


It is difficult to utterly prove, but, it can be shown there is an origin of the 360 Degree Circle (https://instavm.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/05/H8.pdf) and all of the related timekeeping factors from India:


In the Rig veda - the oldest Vedic text, there are clear
references (1.164.48) to a chakra or wheel of 360 spokes placed in the sky. “Twelve are its
fellies. The wheel is one. It has three naves. Who has understood it?”


The Indian classification is based on the apparent movement of celestial bodies as viewed from
Earth. Indians used observational astronomy, as observed from Earth, to track celestial bodies,
including the Sun moon, stars, etc.



So Rg Veda is direct and personal, it has quick times like breathing and blinking, and slow times up to multiple years or about a lifetime.

India is now mostly a land of Puranic religions. In other words there are interpretations and innovations which have pushed away or obscured the Vedic ideas. Aside from the four very large Yugas, another change is on "caste". Vedic commentary on caste determined by karma means:


Karma guides you to that line of work that you are best suited for.


As we have seen, this got changed to "birthright", you are just placed in a station and that's it.

When that happened, we might have said, hang on, that's a rather psychopathic decision.

So was that of the British. In order to make the Indians more self-satisfied, they exhumed the text Laws of Manu and attempted to apply it as the basis of modern Indian law. However nothing says this was ever a legal code of any kind, it was probably one among many "guidebooks" for making codes, but it was not any official part of any old kingdom or republic.


The relevant 4.2 Kiloyear Drought (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/4.2-kiloyear_event#:~:text=The%204.2%2Dkiloyear%20(thousand%20years,of%20the%204.2%20kiloyear%20event.) already is the "geological marker", though still challenged:


It defines the beginning of the current Meghalayan age in the Holocene epoch. Beginning with drought:


Starting around 2200 BC, it probably lasted the entire 22nd century BC. It has been hypothesised to have caused the collapse of the Old Kingdom in Egypt, the Akkadian Empire in Mesopotamia, and the Liangzhu culture in the lower Yangtze River area. The drought may also have initiated the collapse of the Indus Valley Civilisation, with some of its population moving southeastward to follow the movement of their desired habitat, as well as the migration of Indo-European-speaking people into India. Some scientists disagree with that conclusion, citing evidence that the event was not a global drought and did not happen in a clear timeline.


Holocene roughly means end of the Ice Age/proliferation of humanity, and Meghalayan (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meghalayan) is named for an Indian site which preserves some of the best evidence for such a physical change in ages.

The importance of some things like comet impacts is heavily challenged, whereas the geological timeline is mostly only debated around its parameters, i. e. such as how global a drought may have been, or the exact timing, but overall an Ice Age and a significant dust bowl are pretty well established.


As to whether the Ice Age wiped out any large human population, we are not sure, but we do see that most of what were known as civilizations did have a negative impact from drought.

We have no reasons to suspect they were discharging gases, plastic, or committing gratuitous wars for pedophile rings, so what there may have been any kind of natural retribution for, is indeterminate.

What we have in the modern world is what I would call a very new, advanced form of psycopathy which could never have been seen in the ancient world.

[shaberon]

Microbes may have awareness but they aren't 'sentient'.

Symbiosis is the basis of our existence. The circle of life dictates that in order for one thing to live another must perish.


It does. Even if I try to "tread lightly" as a vegetarian, I would eat plants which extract nutrients from soil that is composed of decomposed animal bodies. The plant is not really a vegetarian.

The first and main motive to any life is Hunger, and so yes, it is more an issue of "how" than "exactly what".

Some sense of relating oneself to agricultural production and a humble "asking" of nature for food is a bit more mature than demanding/taking, or starting to believe that food grows in plastic packages.

This whole web of working is probably where psychosis-or-not lies.

[Innocent Warrior]

The more we lose our connection with nature, as a species, the less we behave in harmony with the planet, the planet that provide us our LITERAL home regardless of geographical location. We take it fot granted and barely give it a thought The fact that so many people are turning to a 'back to basics' approach - such as small scale self-sufficiency and small-holdings indicate the beginning of a tipping point.

Unfortunately it would seem to be too little too late. The masses are already hypnotised in absolute fantasy, and it is far enough removed from reality to be labelled such.

I suspect the last time the species was majorly in harmony was prior to the many agricutural revolutions though I would surmise many of those agricultural revolutions spanned many centuries before the rot really crept in.

Which raises a thought in my mind that - was it indolence that gave birth to psycopathy? The appearance of artisan classes from the wealth of produce led to many more wealthy non-productive humans*.

It all comes back to the old adage regarding power. In that 'Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely'.

Is the capacity for psycopathy inherent in all humans? I think it would mostly depend on the age of the soul co-habitating the 3d form. Given this appears to be a training ground for quite young souls it is perhaps inevitable the planet would shrug off the species from time to time, leaving mere pockets of survivors to start anew.

mgS1Lwr8gq8

Edit: To add...

* Which in itself was the beginning of an imbalance amongst the species. Prior to that time everyone had a role to play in a tribal society.

The Devil makes work for idle hands.

Further edit: I've long given at least a healthy recognition to the concept of intelligent planetary bodies. Hence the Gaia theory. I think all 3-dimensional forms have an intelligence. Modern humans, in their arrogance, are one of the few species that pay scant regard to such a concept.

I think all the other life on this planet knows this inherently.

Addressing the human nature aspect of this topic.

What if psychopathy, or evil, isn't something that's affected humanity and it's the other way around? It could be that humans are transmuting destructive energy. Perhaps it's that humans infiltrated darkness. Likely both, depending on scope of perspective

Our senses, ability and knowledge (what we're aware of) differs between dimensions and there's difficulty in remembering events in a dimension that differs greatly in frequency than the one we're doing the remembering in. It could be that this isn't even a world that was intended by us and having entered a frequency that's much lower than ours we have forgotten who we are and what we're doing due to our resulting dimmed senses.

Same planet, very different frequency, very different world, very different humans.

I see beyond appearances very little really but enough to see there's a lot going on here that we aren't aware of and not taking into consideration when we examine our own nature.

Who are the shadow beings that are humanoid in shape? They are around us, in our homes, observing us, moving freely before our eyes, demonstrating a confidence that we won't see them and then when we do they react like they're not supposed to be seen. They are right there, as visible as the chair I'm sitting on, why do we not see them and how do we see them when we do? I don't think they are shadow beings, I think that's just how they appear to us in this realm. They are just one example and there are additional types of beings, and how many other beings are right here with us unseen, despite being perfectly visible? Why? And what are are they doing, what's so bloody interesting about us? Some are malevolent, some are benevolent, and sometimes both nature's can be observed within the same type (like the humanoid shaped shadows).

Why would both malevolent and benevolent beings behave in a similar same manner in this respect? According to my observations there are malevolent beings who absolutely don't want us to become aware of their existence here, and it seems to me that benevolent beings have to interact with us very carefully, like the malevolent beings know everything we perceive, in real time.

I don't raise this point to shirk any responsibility on the part of human beings, I see us as utterly responsible for ourselves, but I don't accept we're to blame, nor do I see the point in blaming anyone. I only care about seeing what is and what works. My concern when I write about these matters is that I come across as fearfully clinging to romantic notions of humanity, when I'm actually just being pragmatic.

From what I've gathered, it seems that what we call spiritual realms are actually physical and that humans also exist as physical beings in what we would call another dimension. It's like something has happened there and we are living the result of that here.

The Matrix movies are a program and disinformation but it does contain some deep truths. The clip below depicts the situation as I see it (at this time), except humans aren't Neo in this realm, humans are the light that transforms the agent back to Neo and the true source of the pulse of increased light is God (Source, whatever), not the machines/technology.

ruSTiOmiyWw

I'm not suggesting anyone who doesn't see humanity as I do should see it as I do, I'm only suggesting the reader to consider that we really can't know, and it would be wildly unwise to judge without enough clarity to do so accurately. It could be that our perception and how we experience this reality is our only true impactful part in creation from this realm, and yet the impact of that part extends far beyond it and couldn't be more important.

[Bill Ryan]

A: Is it wrong to spray with insecticides to try to prevent malaria, etc?

Q: Of course you must have respect for all life, but this is a question of motive and degree. If you have conditions where, due to certain circumstances, there are the kinds of insects that cause disease, then your motive for using sprays is a good one. Respect for life must be tempered with the necessity of ensuring there are conditions in which it can flourish. Similarly, if you have houses infested with bugs, it is easier to spray and get rid of them if your motive is to improve the health of those who dwell there.I confess I was profoundly unimpressed with that answer. Insecticides? Like DDT?? The vibe I got from the response was that it was really very unaware. A natural approach could have been mentioned, but wasn't. It somehow felt all wrong.

Here's an alternative, about Natural Insecticides:

https://smithspestmanagement.com/blog/post/natural-insecticides

(extracted)
Chemical insecticides — Pros:


Effective
Fast-acting
Widely available
Easy to apply
Long-lasting

Chemical insecticides — Cons:


May be dangerous for kids and pets
Generally toxic
May kill non-target species that come into contact with the insecticide
May affect water run-off, soil, and other natural environments

Natural Insecticides — Pros:


Most organic insecticides are considered safer and more environmentally-friendly than man-made chemicals
Organic insecticides are often as effective at pest control as man-made compounds
Will not pollute water or soil
Easy to use and apply

Natural Insecticides — Cons:


Most natural insecticides don’t last quite as long as man-made insecticides, which means you’ll have to apply them frequently
They are more expensive than traditional methods
They may not be 100% effective for serious pest problems
Despite their moderate cons, natural insecticides should be the obvious choice for any green- or eco-minded homeowner

1. Chili Pepper Insecticide Spray

The oils secreted by chili peppers make excellent alternatives to synthetic insecticides. To make chili pepper spray, mix one tablespoon of chile powder (or capsaicin (https://archive.epa.gov/pesticides/reregistration/web/pdf/4018fact.pdf), if you’re looking for a stronger deterrent) with a quart of water and a few drops of mild liquid dish soap (it does not have to be insecticidal soap (https://hgic.clemson.edu/factsheet/less-toxic-insecticides/)). Shake the mixture well and pour it into a spray bottle.

Apply the spray directly to the leaves of affected plants, being careful to avoid contact with skin since chile pepper oils are irritating for humans.

Most effective for: pests that like to eat garden plants, such as slugs, aphids, nematodes, and beetles.
2. Tomato Leaf Insecticide

You may be trying to protect your tomato plants from predation, but did you know that the leaves of those same plants can help kill pests in your garden? Tomato plants are a member of the nightshade family, which means they contain alkaloids that can kill pests (https://www.britannica.com/science/alkaloid).

To make your own organic insecticide spray, chop up two cups of fresh tomato leaves, place them into a quart of water, and allow the mixture to steep overnight. Strain, pour into a spray bottle and spray directly onto plant foliage.

Most effective for: aphids
3. Oil Spray Insecticide

For an easy homemade insecticide, grab some vegetable oil and your favorite mild soap. Mix one cup of the vegetable oil with a tablespoon of the soap and shake thoroughly.

When you’re ready to use the mixture, take two teaspoons of the oil mixture and combine it with one quart of water, mix thoroughly, and apply directly to the surfaces of plants.

Most effective for: aphids, mites, and thrips
4. Neem Oil Insecticide

Neem oil is a powerful natural insecticide (https://npic.orst.edu/factsheets/neemgen.html) used all over the world. It works by disrupting the lifecycle of pests and is an excellent resource for anyone looking to protect their plants.

To use neem oil in your garden, mix two teaspoons of neem oil with one teaspoon of mild liquid soap, and shake that mixture together with a quart of water. Spray the mixture directly on affected plant foliage.

Most effective for: Soft-bodied insects like aphids, mealybugs, mites, and whiteflies
5. Diatomaceous Earth Insecticide

Diatomaceous Earth (DE, for short) is made from fossilized algae and is an excellent option (https://npic.orst.edu/factsheets/neemgen.html) for anyone looking for safe, natural insecticides.

The material works by smothering insects and drawing moisture from their exoskeletons. To use it, sprinkle the DE on the ground around affected plants. Reapply after every rain or sprinkler cycle.

Most effective for: snails, slugs, and other crawling insects
6. Garlic Insecticide Spray

Garlic has a pungent aroma that repels pests. (https://www3.epa.gov/pesticides/chem_search/reg_actions/reregistration/fs_PC-128827_1-Jun-92.pdf) To make your own homemade insecticide for the house, take two bulbs of garlic and puree them in a blender with a bit of water.

Allow the mixture to sit overnight and then strain it into a jar, adding a half cup of vegetable oil and a few drops of mild liquid soap. When ready to use, spray the mixture on affected plants to keep bugs away.

Most effective for: aphids, beetles, and spiders
:flower:

[Bill Ryan]

My overall comment here. It's all about mindfulness.

In our current world, we can't live without affecting the environment around us in some way. Whether it's eating fish or meat, or dealing with insects, or cutting a road across a field, or felling a tree.

Indigenous people know that when (e.g.) hunting and killing an animal, one gives thanks and honors the animal for its sacrifice. When I'm cutting the grass, about an hour beforehand I telepathically warn all the little creatures living there that I'm about to do it, and explain to the grass that I have to take this action, and assure it that it will grow back, and that I'm not its enemy.

I really do those things.

It takes no effort, and I mean what I intend to communicate. It's a tiny, tiny gesture, minuscule in the biggest picture of man's relentless destruction of everything around him. But it's one way of communicating with the biosphere that not all humans have the same attitude.

When I'm hiking, I always pick up trash, if there is any. Even the tiniest bits of plastic. Usually there's none (because there are no people!), but in one area, quite close to El Santuario de la Virgen (a shrine and now a tourist area, where the Virgin Mary made a series of appearances to an Ecuadorian girl back in 1986-7), there's often all kinds of trash on the early parts of the trail which leads to the mountains.

I genuinely can't understand how Christian people, or people who profess to be Christians, are so blind and unaware. Each time I see this (which is every time I go there), I think to myself how totally disconnected even [probably] kind, gentle, considerate people are from nature.

It's a microcosm of the far bigger global picture. We don't understand, we don't know, and we don't care. And the so-called green movement has become so politicized (and is so awash with false information and beliefs about green energy, climate change, electric cars, and more) that it's now become destructive all in itself, in a quite different way. It's not a solution, it's a wrong-way diversion.

I'm no fan of Greta Thunberg or her ilk. Somewhere in there she has the glimmerings of good intentions, but she understands very, very little yet, and is largely being used by others.

A great man is once supposed to have said: Forgive them, for they know not what they do.

[Mark (Star Mariner)]

I confess I was profoundly unimpressed with that answer. Insecticides? Like DDT??

It's a fair point, from this perspective. But he's talking on a small scale, and along the lines of the ethics in play -- that on the question of human health one can justify the eradication of pests.

It's the motive behind it he's addressing here, and I see no flaw in his argument. Of the practical concern he mentions the 'degree', and stipulates, "Respect for life must be tempered with the necessity of ensuring there are conditions in which it can flourish."


The vibe I got from the response was that it was really very unaware

He can surely be forgiven for that -- this was recorded like a hundred years ago before the mass agricultural use of things like DDT.

[Bill Ryan]

I confess I was profoundly unimpressed with that answer. Insecticides? Like DDT??

It's a fair point, from this perspective. But he's talking on a small scale, and along the lines of the ethics in play -- that on the question of human health one can justify the eradication of pests.

It's the motive behind it he's addressing here, and I see no flaw in his argument. Of the practical concern he mentions the 'degree', and stipulates, "Respect for life must be tempered with the necessity of ensuring there are conditions in which it can flourish."


The vibe I got from the response was that it was really very unaware

He can surely be forgiven for that -- this was recorded like a hundred years ago before the mass agricultural use of things like DDT.Thanks, and I did some reading. This article was very interesting.


https://psychicnews.org.uk/articles/silver-birch-vivisection

A small extract from a long page. I did find this much more helpful, detailed and clear than his 'insecticide' response.

~~~

Here, Silver Birch gives a spirit world view of the animal kingdom.

The first point he answers is: “Do you believe that vivisection can be right when it is undertaken with a good motive?”

NO. How can that which is cruel be right How can that which causes pain, which inflicts torture, be right It is contrary to all that we teach. It is wrong to experiment on those who are not capable of resisting.

I would say that you can help people through vivisection, but it is not right to do so because it is contrary to everything spiritual to inflict cruelty and suffering on creatures who have done nothing to deserve it.

Man is responsible for what he does. His motive may be good in many cases and that will affect his spiritual development. That is how the law works.

It is not part of the divine plan that the children of the Great Spirit should become healthy through exploitation and cruelty to the animals in your world.

This is where doctors have taken the wrong path. They justify themselves by saying that man is more important than the animal. Therefore he has the right to improve his health and wellbeing by experimenting on these creatures. But that is wrong.

The law is co-operation. Responsibility should engender mercy and compassion. You cannot exploit others without you suffering as a consequence.

Cruelty is bad for the one who performs the cruelty. When you manifest love, you are the better for it. When you manifest hatred, you are the worse for it. This is how the natural law works.

It is right to strive to lessen the cruelty inflicted on animals, to show there is a better way, a way of mercy, and by teaching people how to order their lives aright, to live in harmony with the natural law, they will become well, healthy and radiant.

What is spiritually wrong can never be condoned, but in an imperfect world there will always be abuses and excesses.

You must fight to promote the welfare of all who should dwell together in amity, peace, concord and love. For love is the fulfilling of the law. You cannot have love if you wreak cruelty on others.

[Mark (Star Mariner)]

In one of my books there's a whole chapter on the Animal Kingdom, where he shares many fascinating insights. I think the following answers are worthy of citation here, as they shed light on the workings of the 'natural law', as he always puts it, and a sort of hidden purpose behind what we, perhaps, might call acts of cruelty and evil.

Q: You have said that if the Spirit is right then the material things will naturally follow and be right. How does that apply to animals in this world who are being born to be tortured, slaughtered and misused generally by man? Surely their spirit is right?

A: NO. That is not the same category as the human spirit because Man is given the responsibility of making the right choice; that is his free will. Man has the power of helping or hindering the evolutionary plan. Thus he has free will to decide, within limits, how he treats those who share the planet with him. Your world is full of many abuses. Not the least among them is the needless cruelty to animals and their exploitation. But it can not be otherwise if man is to progress. Were he deprived of his free will he would not have the chance to evolve his individuality and develop. So this is the crux of the whole matter.

Q: It is so difficult for us to understand how this is allowed to happen.

A: If you use the words "allowed to happen" it means you would rather humanity was robbed of its free will. I repeat that if humans are deprived of their free will they cease to be anything but puppets and are unable to unfold the divinity within them. Their spiritual natures will not evolve and the whole purpose of the earthly life will be missed. You are put on earth because life is the nursery, the school, the training ground for the spirit. The spirit can evolve only when it is exercised by meeting challenges and overcoming them.

[Harmony]

It seems that so many problems and thread discussed on PA are all interlinked somehow and come back to these main questions of why things are the way they are, how did they get this way and how do we fix them or go forward.


I think we are all working on ourselves the best way we can as we have to work within the perameters of our environment. It is interesting that many whom have read hundreds of books about what others do and think and some very simple people that just contemplate and look at the examples the world has provided right in front of them to see and experience often come up with similar observations and conclusions.


It seems to come to a point where many poeple reach a certain stage in evolution and find it hard to go further because of the environment they live within. The next steps in evolution do seem to require cooperation of a large percentage of other people to work along with them for a society to evolve. The free will we have does seem to need to be aligned towards shared goals using the unique gifts of each member of society so as to bring it to a point of some kind of transformation or paradgm shift. The difference between that shift and the WEF AI tyranical forced ideals are that our free will to be come the best that we can be is because we choose it from an inner knowledge we have gained over many lifetimes through a kind of love for the betterment of all. Through love and choice, compassion and understanding and patience and sharing knowledge with others we have come to "know".

[Pris]

.

5. Diatomaceous Earth Insecticide

Diatomaceous Earth (DE, for short) is made from fossilized algae and is an excellent option (https://npic.orst.edu/factsheets/neemgen.html) for anyone looking for safe, natural insecticides.

The material works by smothering insects and drawing moisture from their exoskeletons. To use it, sprinkle the DE on the ground around affected plants. Reapply after every rain or sprinkler cycle.

Most effective for: snails, slugs, and other crawling insects

I don't know too much about chemical insecticides and natural insecticides, but I do know a little about diatoms. Diatoms are fantastic, beautiful little creatures with hard shells made up of silica (silicone, basically quartz crystal) and, apparently, produce up to 50% of the earth's oxygen every year.

Diatomaceous earth is made up of fossilized diatoms. Their tiny shells act as an insecticide by sticking to the waxy exoskeleton of the insect and slowly absorb the moisture from the insect, effectively dehydrating it. But, that's not all. To the insect, the microscopic shells are also like tiny razor blades that inflict small wounds on the body and in the joints. Those wounds interfere with breathing and functioning. From an insect's point-of-view, I'd guess it's quite a horrible slow and painful way to die.

There's really no "nice" way to kill something.

Whatever ways can be found to repel/prevent, that would always be better...


Electron image of diatomaceous earth

https://i.pinimg.com/736x/0c/a9/33/0ca933e775d6bccdf12b3fcd30e1bbd9.jpg





Here, Silver Birch gives a spirit world view of the animal kingdom.

...

The law is co-operation. Responsibility should engender mercy and compassion. You cannot exploit others without you suffering as a consequence.

Cruelty is bad for the one who performs the cruelty. When you manifest love, you are the better for it. When you manifest hatred, you are the worse for it. This is how the natural law works.

It is right to strive to lessen the cruelty inflicted on animals, to show there is a better way, a way of mercy, and by teaching people how to order their lives aright, to live in harmony with the natural law, they will become well, healthy and radiant.

What is spiritually wrong can never be condoned, but in an imperfect world there will always be abuses and excesses.

You must fight to promote the welfare of all who should dwell together in amity, peace, concord and love. For love is the fulfilling of the law. You cannot have love if you wreak cruelty on others.


So, here we all are, doing what we can to "do good" with ourselves, with nature...

Then, you have a destructive creature such as this one who cares nothing for love. He wreaks cruelty upon others with relish and deep satisfaction. Operating from a position of, seemingly, pure selfishness and hatred for all living things, this monster has been rewarded with great wealth, power, and long life. He's operated with impunity as a global economic terrorist through his funding and investments efforts to inflict decades and decades of massive harm upon the world's population.


https://i.pinimg.com/474x/06/48/4d/06484dc56f79531d57549bbc02f3adc5.jpg

[Pris]

.

It seems to come to a point where many poeple reach a certain stage in evolution and find it hard to go further because of the environment they live within. The next steps in evolution do seem to require cooperation of a large percentage of other people to work along with them for a society to evolve. The free will we have does seem to need to be aligned towards shared goals using the unique gifts of each member of society so as to bring it to a point of some kind of transformation or paradgm shift.


"Cooperation", "evolution", "transformation"... This is sounding like it's leaning towards a kind of socialism and belief structure once again. And, I am happy with the way I am and do not require any "evolving" or "transforming". Many people enjoy being left alone, simply living. For myself, I've gained knowledge that's included my own life experiences and spiritual adventures that have helped me to "remember" who I am... But, again, that's personal and is only about me. Free will is free will. No one needs to be "aligned" with anyone or to have "shared goals". Perhaps it is those of us who remain most individual and singular that will help call out "social (justice) experiments" -- well-intentioned or not -- as they happen in order to prevent the kind of mess we're in today.

[Harmony]

.

It seems to come to a point where many poeple reach a certain stage in evolution and find it hard to go further because of the environment they live within. The next steps in evolution do seem to require cooperation of a large percentage of other people to work along with them for a society to evolve. The free will we have does seem to need to be aligned towards shared goals using the unique gifts of each member of society so as to bring it to a point of some kind of transformation or paradgm shift.


"Cooperation", "evolution", "transformation"... This is sounding like it's leaning towards a kind of socialism and belief structure once again. And, I am happy with the way I am and do not require any "evolving" or "transforming". Many people enjoy being left alone, simply living. For myself, I've gained knowledge that's included my own life experiences and spiritual adventures that have helped me to "remember" who I am... But, again, that's personal and is only about me. Free will is free will. No one needs to be "aligned" with anyone or to have "shared goals". Perhaps it is those of us who remain most individual and singular that will help call out "social (justice) experiments" -- well-intentioned or not -- as they happen in order to prevent the kind of mess we're in today.


Hi Pris, I can see how what I wrote could come across that way. I'ts hard to express ones's inner feelings as they are so personal. I too have mostly learned from my inner experiences and journey and I do feel very much an individual that doesn't follow anything or anyone in particular.


I think that shared goal is to me a goal of goodness for all people and the earth. I feel aligned with source in some inexplicable way through the heart that connects me in an expansive way. I feel free will is very important because we learn to choose and respond as we learn the consequenses of our actions and see and feel the consequenses of others actions. Some have free will and choose not to care about what that action brings to the world and others around them and that doesn't just affect them peronally, but the whole earth sometimes. People taking that action for personal gain with out conscoius awareness or care, to me anyway, are causing long term damage in so many ways. That, to me, is how problelms in the world are often created environmentally and socially as well. Free will to care is what I really meant, sorry if it came across as some kind of regime or something.:bearhug:

[Pris]

.

Back to the question of plants and their feelings and such. Well, I'm a vegan. I have to eat something. It's been great having started my own garden in the last couple of years so I've been able to pull off some zucchinis...


In all seriousness, I laughed out loud when I saw this. (I think the cat is a pointer.)


______________________________________________________________________________
https://media.gab.com/cdn-cgi/image/width=568,quality=100,fit=scale-down/system/media_attachments/files/147/700/929/original/992bf13d11e0685e.jpeg

[Ravenlocke]

“ Back to the question of plants and their feelings and such. Well, I'm a vegan. I have to eat something. It's been great having started my own garden in the last couple of years so I've been able to pull off some zucchinis...”


Hi Pris,

Have you heard or ever read about the Findhorn community how it started that is and not so much what it is today. It may help with the questions about eating and planting and raising vegetables and fruit.
Also the book, “To Hear the Angels Sing” by Dorothy Maclean who lived at Findhorn and communicated with the devas of various vegetables etc, may help as well.

:waving:

[Pris]

.

“ Back to the question of plants and their feelings and such. Well, I'm a vegan. I have to eat something. It's been great having started my own garden in the last couple of years so I've been able to pull off some zucchinis...”


Hi Pris,

Have you heard or ever read about the Findhorn community how it started that is and not so much what it is today. It may help with the questions about eating and planting and raising vegetables and fruit.
Also the book, “To Hear the Angels Sing” by Dorothy Maclean who lived at Findhorn and communicated with the devas of various vegetables etc, may help as well.

:waving:


Thanks for that, Ravenlocke! No, I've not heard of the Findhorn community ("intentional living"). However, I used to keep myself informed on Ubuntu communities and The Venus Project a few years back.

I did a quick search and found this video on Findhorn... You're sure right that it's not what it started as. It's been infiltrated and corrupted by the globalist agenda. Really too bad but no surprise. They use all the right buzz words and follow the NWO goals/lies. "Sustainability", "climate solutions", "electric vehicles"... Actually, it looks very much like a 15 minute city, doesn't it?... Everybody sharing everything, living together in a tight, rules-based community... less privacy... eating bug burgers (joke, not really) while the "elitist overlords" (who own everything for themselves), fly their personal jets and live in their multi-million dollar mansions on acres of private land (while they take away our plastic bags to carry our groceries in and guilt us into recycling our tin cans), find ways to get their industry leaders inside the community to steer the movement to their agenda. Clearly, that's what's already happened.

It's so much easier to steer a movement than it is to steer an individual.


About the Findhorn Ecovillage


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DcfcgeJfoMY


Thanks for the book suggestion (with regard to our interaction with nature, zucchinis etc :D), I'll check that out.

One thing I'm figuring out as I go, it's good to live and remain as independent as possible. That way there's less chance of being taken advantage of and being manipulated.

[shaberon]

The next steps in evolution do seem to require cooperation of a large percentage of other people to work along with them for a society to evolve. The free will we have does seem to need to be aligned towards shared goals using the unique gifts of each member of society so as to bring it to a point of some kind of transformation or paradgm shift. The difference between that shift and the WEF AI tyranical forced ideals are that our free will to be come the best that we can be is because we choose it from an inner knowledge we have gained over many lifetimes through a kind of love for the betterment of all.



Granted that maybe "evolution" is not the best choice of word, this still comes pretty close to a reasonable "social contract".

And so yes, "evolution" and related vocabulary are from the WEF-and-alikes playbook. In fact it can be difficult to learn how to talk *without* using any of their parables.

The large difference in the experiences is that the current social contract is--


statist, collective: I dwell in an imaginary box, and, collectively with its other denizens, we accumulate enough energy and food to survive


whereas "free will" at the very least would imply that you *wanted* to do that.

What would lead us to actually, voluntarily enter a social contract?

The one the United States was made from was a rejection of British authority and willingness to shoot them. That decision has not come up for review in my lifetime, it does not seem to apply to any common cause, which would be difficult anyway, no common cause can be found. Therefor, no kind of voluntary social contract.

This is probably different from many places because the States have so many kinds of mixed origin that it winds up having no culture.

So for me, at least, it is impossible to conceive of anything resembling a substantial agreement with a large percentage of others around me. Part of the Fabian method is to make you alienated, and this is what it is like.



As for Insecticide, here's one from the Witches:


A Toad.


That is good for your garden/houseplants, etc., but it won't bomb a roach colony.

Also, other predators--spiders, wasps, mantises (had one on the window earlier).

The oldest clever thing I have heard of was from South Africa about 100,000 years ago.

There were various kinds of reeds which looked like they had to be imported from distance, hundreds of miles away. They were woven into bedding which is believed to be of an insect repellant nature. That makes sense because otherwise why would you transport such a thing so far.


From experience I would say that Diatomaceous Earth and natural oils can be anywhere from partially to completely effective, but that is with regard to typical pests and not major infestations.

To get rid of fruit flies, put water in a jar with some liquid dish detergent and a few drops of vinegar. Use a rubber band to cover it with plastic wrap, and poke some holes with a toothpick or small knife. This will get rid of at least as many flies as any product on the market, and can probably get rid of all of them.


I would suggest that most health and sanitation concerns are with agents of rot which can be heavily spread by insects.

It is all a matter of conditions.

Adjusted another way, "raw nature" will blow sourdough starter in your window. This, and the art of fermentation, are traditions worth keeping.

It has recently been pointed out to me about the Mycelium and how the whole top layer of soil is like one big mushroom.

It just blooms differently according to conditions.

It gives off spores too, but it is mainly one long fungus going everywhere, and is certainly involved with the subterranean communication of trees. They are able to "say" they have excess calcium or some nutrient deficiency, and another tree, either directly through its roots, or, via the mycelium, will make an adjustment.

That is impressive for cooperative survival mode, but, I am not sure it could "do" anything to the human species.

[shaberon]

You're sure right that it's not what it started as. It's been infiltrated and corrupted by the globalist agenda. Really too bad but no surprise


There's almost nothing that this does not apply to.

Consequently to what I just posted on social contracting, there's:


nothing to join.

It's possible there are a tiny handful of exceptions, but nothing much of any size escapes the attention of vested interests.

The strange result is that Russia is really entering the role the United States once had, i. e. an abundance of available land. It is so raw you have to put in your own dirt road to even get there. Does this mean in a hundred years they will be a miscegenated non-culture from sporadic immigration? Or will it still be more or less Russia? I don't know, but you cannot do anything with land cheaply around here. Whatever sense of community had sprung in the early expansion of manual agriculture is lost.

At one point in time, there was a trend for instance of Virginia communes, which mostly proved to be failures, so perhaps there is an element of caution needed here.

[Arcturian108]

Sad news: The Findhorn community is no longer conducting educational courses of any kind due to financial problems. It may eventually restructure, but as of now it appears to have ceased to exist in a recognizable fashion: https://wildhunt.org/2023/09/findhorn-foundation-closes-educational-programmes.html

[Pris]

.

It has recently been pointed out to me about the Mycelium and how the whole top layer of soil is like one big mushroom.

This is just freakin' cool. :smokin:




Adjusted another way, "raw nature" will blow sourdough starter in your window. This, and the art of fermentation, are traditions worth keeping.

Already doing this. :muscle:... I call him Enki and have had this fellow for many years now. :highfive:




To get rid of fruit flies, put water in a jar with some liquid dish detergent and a few drops of vinegar. Use a rubber band to cover it with plastic wrap, and poke some holes with a toothpick or small knife. This will get rid of at least as many flies as any product on the market, and can probably get rid of all of them.

Going to try this! :thumbsup:




https://i.pinimg.com/originals/cd/fa/f9/cdfaf90e374cb0977db3d3daea869423.png

[palehorse]

.

“ Back to the question of plants and their feelings and such. Well, I'm a vegan. I have to eat something. It's been great having started my own garden in the last couple of years so I've been able to pull off some zucchinis...”


Hi Pris,

Have you heard or ever read about the Findhorn community how it started that is and not so much what it is today. It may help with the questions about eating and planting and raising vegetables and fruit.
Also the book, “To Hear the Angels Sing” by Dorothy Maclean who lived at Findhorn and communicated with the devas of various vegetables etc, may help as well.

:waving:


Thanks for that, Ravenlocke! No, I've not heard of the Findhorn community ("intentional living"). However, I used to keep myself informed on Ubuntu communities and The Venus Project a few years back.

I did a quick search and found this video on Findhorn... You're sure right that it's not what it started as. It's been infiltrated and corrupted by the globalist agenda. Really too bad but no surprise. They use all the right buzz words and follow the NWO goals/lies. "Sustainability", "climate solutions", "electric vehicles"... Actually, it looks very much like a 15 minute city, doesn't it?... Everybody sharing everything, living together in a tight, rules-based community... less privacy... eating bug burgers (joke, not really) while the "elitist overlords" (who own everything for themselves), fly their personal jets and live in their multi-million dollar mansions on acres of private land (while they take away our plastic bags to carry our groceries in and guilt us into recycling our tin cans), find ways to get their industry leaders inside the community to steer the movement to their agenda. Clearly, that's what's already happened.

It's so much easier to steer a movement than it is to steer an individual.


About the Findhorn Ecovillage


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DcfcgeJfoMY


Thanks for the book suggestion (with regard to our interaction with nature, zucchinis etc :D), I'll check that out.

One thing I'm figuring out as I go, it's good to live and remain as independent as possible. That way there's less chance of being taken advantage of and being manipulated.


Hi Pris, from my own experience not once living in intentional community I can say that everything that I came in contact or knew from others failed, when it grows at certain point it fails, even anarchist communities end up with leaders lol

I know that primitive models like cells works well if respected the limits of growth, which when reached can simply replicate it self into another cell and keep growing that way, no leaders are require the cells are self adjustable, al it requires are the conscious beings taking care of themselves.

I would really love to see something different that works, but so far based on my own experience that is pretty much what I know works currently, but not everyone has the mindset to pursue it, when talk about communities nowadays people think of wonders and nobody has to work, full service sort of thing lol maybe I am from another planet, I can't understand modern life.




...
At one point in time, there was a trend for instance of Virginia communes, which mostly proved to be failures, so perhaps there is an element of caution needed here.

Absolutely they all failed at some point. It is pretty much the same pattern with everything that grows and grab attention from the top, it end up with filth agents infiltrated and in no time it ether abide to weird rules or cease to exist. Going small one can't go wrong. I gave up large communities, I don't trust it.




[edited]
sorry if off-topic, but let me expand a bit here on this topic.

I am constantly looking into communities and what I wrote above does not mean that I consider them out of purpose of their existence, I know these communities all start with great dreams and lots of extremely well committed people, hard workers and so on.. but the old problem of corruption is always present and if the founders of the community allow that to happen, be it due to greediness or whatever, it just proves the community didn't have that level of maturity yet.. But we can learn from their mistakes, we can learn from their modus operandi too, compile the best out of it and avoid repeating their mistakes, errors, etc.. in other words we always learn. My guts says if you really want to get it right, the key is not to have any leadership, just a blueprint of howtos, then anyone can follow and establish on their own.. it is also important to have some sort of council to meet often and discuss ideas for the blueprint, after all it can always be improved and also it should have no MONEY involved in any way shape or form.

Like old saying: you want to do it, it has to be out of your heart!

[Dennis Leahy]

...
To get rid of fruit flies, put water in a jar with some liquid dish detergent and a few drops of vinegar. Use a rubber band to cover it with plastic wrap, and poke some holes with a toothpick or small knife. This will get rid of at least as many flies as any product on the market, and can probably get rid of all of them.

Here's a variation on that theme that I have found to be extremely effective for fruit flies:

Instead of a vinegar or soapy water pool of death, put a small piece of tomato or strawberry scraps in the glass. Just as shaberon suggests, cover the jar with plastic wrap stretched over the glass secured with a rubber band and poke a dozen holes with a toothpick. Like junkies to heroin, all the fruit flies within the room will be drawn to the smell and will squeeze through the holes in the plastic. You now have the choice to take the glass outdoors and release the fruit flies. (I may be ignorant) but I don't remember reading that fruit flies are a disease vector, just an annoyance, and so capitol punishment may be literally overkill.

Fleas, however, are known to be a disease vector (bubonic plague, etc.) and many pet owners will have to fight a battle with fleas at some point. For this pest, a pool of death is effective and maybe warranted. The idea of setting off insecticide bombs in the house where you live and breathe is insane, and here's a method to kill them without poison:
The contraption you'll McGuyver is basically a pan of water with a light bulb heat source suspended over it. Fleas leap toward the heat source, fall into the pan of water, and drown. I've used a pie tin, an old-school coat hanger wire bent into a light bulb socket holder, and a relatively low wattage (40W or 60W) incandescent bulb for a heat source. A single small drop of dishwashing detergent in the water will break the water's surface tension and ensure that the fleas will go under the water.

Also, regarding las cucarachas, I think diatomaceous earth (DE) kills because of physical sharpness of the diatoms, and boric acid powder kills by dessication. I've used boric acid when I lived in "student slum" buildings that had cockroaches, and I've tried DE with mixed success in the garden to stop cutworms. A ring of stiff paper/thin cardboard around each plant's young stem was more effective and the DE can be put around the ring for extra protection. I've had cutworms that killed almost every young plant in my organic garden in one night, and had to find a solution.

The most amazing thing I've ever seen anyone do to "control" ants in the house was by an unconventional artist friend that had a stream of tiny ants coming into his house. He dissolved sugar in water and painted an artistic, looping trail on his wall, ending in a corner of the window frame where there was a tiny hole to the outside. It wasn't really an effective solution, but it was hilarious to see the ants dutifully following the trail, creating living art. Of course, the degree of an ant problem depends on the ant species - fire ants, carpenter ants, or army ants aren't such a delightful guest or neighbor. (See the book: Leinington Versus the Ants for a drastic example.)

[Pris]

.

Hi Pris, from my own experience not once living in intentional community I can say that everything that I came in contact or knew from others failed, when it grows at certain point it fails, even anarchist communities end up with leaders lol

...

I would really love to see something different that works, but so far based on my own experience that is pretty much what I know works currently, but not everyone has the mindset to pursue it, when talk about communities nowadays people think of wonders and nobody has to work, full service sort of thing lol maybe I am from another planet, I can't understand modern life.



It is pretty much the same pattern with everything that grows and grab attention from the top, it end up with filth agents infiltrated and in no time it ether abide to weird rules or cease to exist. Going small one can't go wrong. I gave up large communities, I don't trust it.

...

My guts says if you really want to get it right, the key is not to have any leadership, just a blueprint of howtos, then anyone can follow and establish on their own.. it is also important to have some sort of council to meet often and discuss ideas for the blueprint, after all it can always be improved and also it should have no MONEY involved in any way shape or form.

Like old saying: you want to do it, it has to be out of your heart!


Hiyah, palehorse. I agree with the idea of not having any leaders... Ironically, I think there will always be a requirement for GOOD leaders... because when you're dealing with populations of people, if a good leader doesn't step in to lead them, a bad one will. Always. People, in general, WANT leaders and are easily steered because of it, unfortunately. It's unfortunate for them, and it's unfortunate for those of us who do not want to be swept up in societal chaos (that's why we try to escape society, we aren't stupid [the globalists are onto us which is why they're trying to force us back into urban centers]). Good luck having good leaders in this cut-throat world. They are RARE.

Blueprint of how-tos? (Who decides who's in the council? Also, why stick to one blueprint?) What about freedom to make one's own decisions on everything, it really comes down to that. It's about completely taking responsibility for one's own existence, one's own actions. I do agree about the money thing. Money (plus barter plus trade, influence) = corruption.

[Pris]

.

Here's a variation on that theme that I have found to be extremely effective for fruit flies:

Instead of a vinegar or soapy water pool of death, put a small piece of tomato or strawberry scraps in the glass. Just as shaberon suggests, cover the jar with plastic wrap stretched over the glass secured with a rubber band and poke a dozen holes with a toothpick. Like junkies to heroin, all the fruit flies within the room will be drawn to the smell and will squeeze through the holes in the plastic. You now have the choice to take the glass outdoors and release the fruit flies. (I may be ignorant) but I don't remember reading that fruit flies are a disease vector, just an annoyance, and so capitol punishment may be literally overkill.



https://i.pinimg.com/originals/5f/e3/b6/5fe3b6bad60a29ec50ffb4b76585b63b.jpg




https://i.imgflip.com/2zoykd.jpg




https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-6OhH2JnNhtc/UoLuSMUuz_I/AAAAAAAAFPc/MPbCm77UpMM/s1600/Fruit+Fly+Comic.jpg




https://i.imgflip.com/p3w0u.jpg

[palehorse]

.

Hi Pris, from my own experience not once living in intentional community I can say that everything that I came in contact or knew from others failed, when it grows at certain point it fails, even anarchist communities end up with leaders lol

...

I would really love to see something different that works, but so far based on my own experience that is pretty much what I know works currently, but not everyone has the mindset to pursue it, when talk about communities nowadays people think of wonders and nobody has to work, full service sort of thing lol maybe I am from another planet, I can't understand modern life.



It is pretty much the same pattern with everything that grows and grab attention from the top, it end up with filth agents infiltrated and in no time it ether abide to weird rules or cease to exist. Going small one can't go wrong. I gave up large communities, I don't trust it.

...

My guts says if you really want to get it right, the key is not to have any leadership, just a blueprint of howtos, then anyone can follow and establish on their own.. it is also important to have some sort of council to meet often and discuss ideas for the blueprint, after all it can always be improved and also it should have no MONEY involved in any way shape or form.

Like old saying: you want to do it, it has to be out of your heart!


Hiyah, palehorse. I agree with the idea of not having any leaders... Ironically, I think there will always be a requirement for GOOD leaders... because when you're dealing with populations of people, if a good leader doesn't step in to lead them, a bad one will. Always. People, in general, WANT leaders and are easily steered because of it, unfortunately. It's unfortunate for them, and it's unfortunate for those of us who do not want to be swept up in societal chaos (that's why we try to escape society, we aren't stupid [the globalists are onto us which is why they're trying to force us back into urban centers]). Good luck having good leaders in this cut-throat world. They are RARE.

Blueprint of how-tos? (Who decides who's in the council? Also, why stick to one blueprint?) What about freedom to make one's own decisions on everything, it really comes down to that. It's about completely taking responsibility for one's own existence, one's own actions. I do agree about the money thing. Money (plus barter plus trade, influence) = corruption.


Hi Pris

What you wrote is true, no questions at all about, but the whole point is to fight back, isn't it? well not literally with our fists or guns or whatever, but rather creating new models to replace this old decaying stinking current system.

The blueprint I referred is something practical teaching people how to do stuffs, one have to start organizing from somewhere, think for the next generations surviving this whole crazy world (if they do), there will be many question how to do this and that and so on, these blueprints will work also as some sort of field guide.. some people uses the bible for that, but in my experience it is not practical.

The council I mean, will be necessary to the ones involved to get together and talk from time to time, like meetings, everyone in the community must be part of this council also each cell would have their own council, we are talking about small group of people, each cell could grow to its limit and split then. It is like having too many people in one house, at some point you need a second house.
The blueprint would not be only 1, I mean there will be many many howtos and it is best if compiled into 1 large blueprint to keep things organized, also it is nothing written in stone, it must be flexible, for example tested things that didn't work must be carefully documented and update or removed from the blueprint, so there will be many versions of it :)

In your last sentence, of course people can make their own decisions and they should, but at some point when one don't agree with anything and know they can do it all alone, then in my honest opinion, this individual should go on his own path and do it the best he can, but we already know nobody can do anything all alone, it is like to become a hermit in a cave, totally possible no questions about that either, when you say taking responsibility to their own existence, that is the whole point here, the blueprint is completely decentralized.. enforcing consciously some sort of economy of surplus we already are half way into it, give more than take idea, planting your own community gardens, having your own water system, shelters, communications and forth and so on, perhaps won't be perfect but sure will be functional, corruption can't exist in such environment.. the major question to deal with would be ownership of the land, taxing and legal stuffs, we discussed a lot about it on the thread "starve the beast".


I meant in terms of collectivism consensus of the conscious beings involved (the community decide not the individual). In such model should not exist any sort of party movement, because that means more division and we mind like people want to be united and not divided.

Think more in terms of mycelium spreading, nobody can't destroy it because it is always there, unless blow up the entire planet and even that may not stop it from traveling in space and land in some other planet, there is no queens or kings as the leaders it just spread and sprout out like a common natural conscious network that always existed (unlike bees or ants). Humans are conditioned to act the way they act.

The most of humankind are certainly leading the opposite direction but a tiny few are already pointed in that direction and that is pretty much more than we need, not everyone will understand it, those who gave up understanding our world they are "happy" on their own way, we can't change that, it is like trying to wake someone up, but they won't listen, they live in a constant moment of denial of nature around them, except for the rare moments of reality ripples. As you pointed out they need a leader to guide their way, so be it.

Transcend our culture will be something extremely necessary, we started doing it through subversive art, but see where we are now, most people see it as entertainment (the trend is: if doesn't fit official narrative, then it is a conspiracy theory) or they don't see at all because of the so many mechanism of information control governments created around the world (fact check for example), unless the general public be shocked and I mean really shocked with something enormous it won't ever happen, things will just spin out of control and certainly collapse at some point.

The key is to find the others, and then we will know what to do. Isn't what we are doing here today? I have faith we are getting there and there is no need to every single human being to be onboard and in fact they won't.

quoting Avalon round table
"We will do everything we can to work towards the establishment of a new way of living together on Planet Earth."

What I wrote are ideas based on my experience and what seems to make sense to me, I am open mind to discuss it all at any moment, we are here for that :)

[shaberon]

Instead of a vinegar or soapy water pool of death, put a small piece of tomato or strawberry scraps in the glass. Just as shaberon suggests, cover the jar with plastic wrap stretched over the glass secured with a rubber band and poke a dozen holes with a toothpick. Like junkies to heroin, all the fruit flies within the room will be drawn to the smell and will squeeze through the holes in the plastic. You now have the choice to take the glass outdoors and release the fruit flies. (I may be ignorant) but I don't remember reading that fruit flies are a disease vector, just an annoyance, and so capitol punishment may be literally overkill.


True, it only takes some kind of bait to draw them in--and then it is time-dependent, because, without bait, they are too dumb to find their way back out through the holes.

They will live on a tomato slice, or die from lack of nourishment, but are basically trapped until you decide what to do with them.

At the most benign, any insect gets fungus and bacteria stuck to its feet, and moves it to the place of the next visit. Even roaches would be fairly clean and harmless if they only went around clean areas.




Also, regarding las cucarachas, I think diatomaceous earth (DE) kills because of physical sharpness of the diatoms, and boric acid powder kills by dessication.


It is basically the same. DE goes between the chitin joints and slices up the waxy coating of the insect's surface, and, rather than bleeding or dying from injuries, they just dry out.

Acids and other means absorb moisture directly, whereas DE diffuses it into the atmosphere.

But again, dual-purpose, food grade DE is a good de-wormer for humans and animals, along with the herb, Wormwood.



Along those same lines, the best "natural" treatment for our bodies is in the pH.

When set to the wrong level, a plant will show pH imbalances within a few days, animals within a couple months, and humans will parade a lifetime of sickness without ever knowing why.

Most acid reflux indigestion is not from "too much" acid, but, rather, too little, which makes the stomach do excessive mechanical grinding, which forces some available acid into the esophagus.

Somewhat counter-intuitively, one can be mainly "de-acidified" by ingesting acids, such as mustard, tomatoes, or lemon juice.

If not, you are going to get osteoperosis, because the body will leach the missing minerals from your bones.

The "wrong" ph will heavily favor the growth of unfriendly bacteria as well.

Instead, one feels sick and resorts to anti-biotics, which of course harms the gut flora, which needs to be maintained at the proper pH in the first place.

Or, in the example of cheap chicken, you will simply ingest new, mutated bacteria that are drug resistant, and then no normal means can help you.

I would say it is totally psycho to promote agriculture and diet that ruin these conditions, and respond with a fake medical science that can't fix it, because neither of them can face free and easy facts that would render large parts of the industry meaningless.

I, personally, think there is great value in community and leadership, and the ability to produce food and goods to excess. However it becomes a total problem when reduced to mechanics and the "world of words", and we wind up with artificial experts who can't really do anything besides tell you what to do, which is usually backwards. True leadership comes from the position of wisdom and experience. There definitely is such a thing. Scrambling the language and dis-uniting us from the way nature works must surely be the opposite.


Sadly, I think we only have mechanisms in place to draw you back to dependency on urban centers with raised prices and taxes, which is just an abstract with the intention to continuously raise these.

Despite all this time spent looking for a way to maybe at least halfway work around this, I am still empty-handed.

Unless I figure it out, my destiny is almost certainly "Virginia commune" with incompetents. We may just all perish miserably, as history seems to indicate. With the right personnel and location, it could possibly work out, but of course I have no say in anything, since even now money is more important than wisdom and experience.

That means I am unaware of any success of a "counter-cultural movement", even such as organics, which should not be counter-culture to begin with.

In fact, what I have come to react to at a visceral level of disgust is Thanksgiving and the Pilgrims. Santa Claus or St. Nicholas can be found having origins as distribution of wealth to the poor, and even the "birthday of Jesus" can be reverse-engineered to at least find something about the Winter Solstice. Independence Day is an obvious farce unless you claw your eyes out. But Thanksgiving?

Pilgrims are the crowd of Oliver Cromwell, and, later, the main trans-Atlantic fascist group which named itself accordingly. This is a stupid disguise from looking so plain, ordinary, and innocent, but is the main force behind that which plagues us in the modern world. What killed farming and brought disease. Pilgrims.

And this is supposed to be some kind of honorary national symbol and holiday?

I wish it would fall stone dead.

Then I could clean the remains out of my mind. But not while it keeps popping up and interrupting, as it keeps doing, like a broken record.

Without the strange boosts of Thanksgiving and Christmas, many businesses would not make it, which should be the first sign that something is wrong here. If viable, it should hold value throughout the year with no worries. But there are not many exceptions.

I quit recognizing their existence so long ago that no thoughts of sympathy will ever recur to me.

When you cast off these shackles and blinders, you do not miss them! You do not need them.

[Pris]

.


.
Hiyah, palehorse. I agree with the idea of not having any leaders... Ironically, I think there will always be a requirement for GOOD leaders... because when you're dealing with populations of people, if a good leader doesn't step in to lead them, a bad one will. Always. People, in general, WANT leaders and are easily steered because of it, unfortunately. It's unfortunate for them, and it's unfortunate for those of us who do not want to be swept up in societal chaos (that's why we try to escape society, we aren't stupid [the globalists are onto us which is why they're trying to force us back into urban centers]). Good luck having good leaders in this cut-throat world. They are RARE.

Blueprint of how-tos? (Who decides who's in the council? Also, why stick to one blueprint?) What about freedom to make one's own decisions on everything, it really comes down to that. It's about completely taking responsibility for one's own existence, one's own actions. I do agree about the money thing. Money (plus barter plus trade, influence) = corruption.


Hi Pris

What you wrote is true, no questions at all about, but the whole point is to fight back, isn't it? well not literally with our fists or guns or whatever, but rather creating new models to replace this old decaying stinking current system.

The blueprint I referred is something practical teaching people how to do stuffs, one have to start organizing from somewhere, think for the next generations surviving this whole crazy world (if they do), there will be many question how to do this and that and so on, these blueprints will work also as some sort of field guide.. some people uses the bible for that, but in my experience it is not practical.

The council I mean, will be necessary to the ones involved to get together and talk from time to time, like meetings, everyone in the community must be part of this council also each cell would have their own council, we are talking about small group of people, each cell could grow to its limit and split then. It is like having too many people in one house, at some point you need a second house.
The blueprint would not be only 1, I mean there will be many many howtos and it is best if compiled into 1 large blueprint to keep things organized, also it is nothing written in stone, it must be flexible, for example tested things that didn't work must be carefully documented and update or removed from the blueprint, so there will be many versions of it :)

In your last sentence, of course people can make their own decisions and they should, but at some point when one don't agree with anything and know they can do it all alone, then in my honest opinion, this individual should go on his own path and do it the best he can, but we already know nobody can do anything all alone, it is like to become a hermit in a cave, totally possible no questions about that either, when you say taking responsibility to their own existence, that is the whole point here, the blueprint is completely decentralized.. enforcing consciously some sort of economy of surplus we already are half way into it, give more than take idea, planting your own community gardens, having your own water system, shelters, communications and forth and so on, perhaps won't be perfect but sure will be functional, corruption can't exist in such environment.. the major question to deal with would be ownership of the land, taxing and legal stuffs, we discussed a lot about it on the thread "starve the beast".


I meant in terms of collectivism consensus of the conscious beings involved (the community decide not the individual). In such model should not exist any sort of party movement, because that means more division and we mind like people want to be united and not divided.

...

The key is to find the others, and then we will know what to do. Isn't what we are doing here today? I have faith we are getting there and there is no need to every single human being to be onboard and in fact they won't.

quoting Avalon round table
"We will do everything we can to work towards the establishment of a new way of living together on Planet Earth."

What I wrote are ideas based on my experience and what seems to make sense to me, I am open mind to discuss it all at any moment, we are here for that :)


Thanks, appreciate your thoughts! This is getting tricky to answer lol. As soon as things start to get complicated... my flags go up. It shouldn't have to be complicated.

It's funny, on one hand you say that the individual -- that NOBODY -- can do it all on their own. But, then you say a person could be a hermit and live in a cave, totally possible. That's a contradiction. Personally, I don't see any problem with a person (or a couple of people, or a handful of people, a closed system) living entirely on their own... other than the fact that other people will always attempt to prevent that from happening (to harm, to exploit). That's where American's like having their 2nd Amendment, and I can see why.

We're in agreement with the need to fight back. I think where we seem to diverge is where the collective versus the individual. Your "collectivism consensus" versus my "leave me alone", basically. I can picture a bunch of people all wanting to be left alone living in a very decentralized manner and the thing they all agree on is wanting to be left alone. So, they all fight together (when necessary) for each other's right to be left alone. For those who want to work together, share etc, that would be determined on an individual basis. Nobody consents to anything. The word "consent" makes my skin crawl. It's the same with the word "collectivism"... I get flashes of Star Trek Borg cubes. This "collectivism" with pre-approved "blueprints" -- where you are only permitted to build your ship in the shape of a cube or in the shape of a sphere because all other shapes were deemed inefficient by the collective and removed as options.

Once, I imagined how a "volunteer-based" society might be a great way to go (Ubuntu), but I watched as it just couldn't stand a chance against malevolent people who don't want to leave other people alone doing beneficial things for one another. Then, there's always the problem with lack of privacy. Privacy for the individual is fundamentally important for those of us who WANT privacy. For example, community gardens are nice but private gardens are nice, too. Some people like to own their own stuff. Boundaries. Walls. Protection. We all have our own boundaries. Some people don't want to share anything, others feel comfortable sharing certain things but not other things. All these boundaries need to be respected.

Another time, I could imagine living in the fantastic world of Jacque Fresco. But, now I have serious questions about what it means to be "resource-based" (the Earth is so much more than just a "resource"... how is it okay to exploit it simply for its resources)... and there seemed to be a serious lack of spirituality in all of it. Also, the technology... just how hackable would it be, just how easy would it be to subvert such a technological society to work against its inhabitants (we're already facing that today)? Again, what happened to privacy? Anyway, the more complicated any system gets, the more dependent individuals become to that system (and to each other) and the easier it is to break that system, for bad actors to work their way in and for corruption to take hold. Too many hands in the pot...

[palehorse]

Hi again Pris, yes it should not be complicated, not at all, but there are odds everywhere and nothing is perfect, then we have to deal with that, but of course it shouldn't get too complex or it won't make sense.

It is a contradiction but 2 different approaches, unless one live in a tent in the forest yes it can be done alone, but at the moment "systems" are introduced, complexity increase, I see it as natural and logical, more things into the system more people you need to maintain it, in the case of a hermit, there is no such a thing, it is as much primitive as it can get and nature will provide mindset, so it is also possible, both ways are extremely hard to do all alone and not for everyone, this whole thing is an ocean of possibilities. In one end you have the hermit living by nature and in the other end you have a small community system. I see it as logical from one end to another the complexity grows so more people are necessary. Maybe something in the middle would be ideal..

"collectivism consensus" versus my "leave me alone" are two different approaches to the problem and I see both has their pros and cons, when I say collectivism consensus I just mean that people living together should agree on doing things otherwise it falls into your leave me alone model, I am not saying it is wrong or right (I don't believe in anything like that), it is only different ways to tackle a problem :)

I picture this whole thing as low tech and primitive lifestyle, blueprints does not refers to high tech only.. I think I should had said that before to avoid misunderstands, I never thought on those models of Jacques Fresco or Star Wars, these stuffs are too much for my head to be frank. What I am trying to say goes more in line with anarchism than anything else (having basic rules not rulers), I am very often into Thai rural villages and I see the way they handle things there, some are very low-tech others are no-tech and completely off the grid, no public utilities, in some cases not even road access, and I am not talking about hill tribes that nowadays are tourist attraction, I am talking about the common country men. As you mentioned earlier, they are trying to push all these people to the cities, it is true I had seen myself, most young people left to larger centers to get indoctrinated, what you see here is the old country men standing still on his property and resisting time and all the new country policies.

+10 to bring up Privacy issues, agreed you put that perfectly and I feel I have nothing to comment on that :heart:

In your last sentence I don't sympathize with high tech in anyway not sure if I ever did, I was a slave in the system like the majority (former programmer) and I left it all behind because I got serious issues with it, I paid a high ticket for that, went into lots of troubles to make that transition but I survived and here I am, trying to live as simple as possible, and looking into a way to have other like mind around and perhaps living close and helping each other in some ways, I don't see how bad it can be, but if it does, good sense must kick in literally.

thanks for keep posting Pris :)

[Pris]

.

Hi again Pris, yes it should not be complicated, not at all, but there are odds everywhere and nothing is perfect, then we have to deal with that, but of course it shouldn't get too complex or it won't make sense.

It is a contradiction but 2 different approaches, unless one live in a tent in the forest yes it can be done alone, but at the moment "systems" are introduced, complexity increase, I see it as natural and logical, more things into the system more people you need to maintain it, in the case of a hermit, there is no such a thing, it is as much primitive as it can get and nature will provide mindset, so it is also possible, both ways are extremely hard to do all alone and not for everyone, this whole thing is an ocean of possibilities. In one end you have the hermit living by nature and in the other end you have a small community system. I see it as logical from one end to another the complexity grows so more people are necessary. Maybe something in the middle would be ideal..

"collectivism consensus" versus my "leave me alone" are two different approaches to the problem and I see both has their pros and cons, when I say collectivism consensus I just mean that people living together should agree on doing things otherwise it falls into your leave me alone model, I am not saying it is wrong or right (I don't believe in anything like that), it is only different ways to tackle a problem :)

I picture this whole thing as low tech and primitive lifestyle, blueprints does not refers to high tech only.. I think I should had said that before to avoid misunderstands, I never thought on those models of Jacques Fresco or Star Wars, these stuffs are too much for my head to be frank. What I am trying to say goes more in line with anarchism than anything else (having basic rules not rulers), I am very often into Thai rural villages and I see the way they handle things there, some are very low-tech others are no-tech and completely off the grid, no public utilities, in some cases not even road access, and I am not talking about hill tribes that nowadays are tourist attraction, I am talking about the common country men. As you mentioned earlier, they are trying to push all these people to the cities, it is true I had seen myself, most young people left to larger centers to get indoctrinated, what you see here is the old country men standing still on his property and resisting time and all the new country policies.

+10 to bring up Privacy issues, agreed you put that perfectly and I feel I have nothing to comment on that :heart:

In your last sentence I don't sympathize with high tech in anyway not sure if I ever did, I was a slave in the system like the majority (former programmer) and I left it all behind because I got serious issues with it, I paid a high ticket for that, went into lots of troubles to make that transition but I survived and here I am, trying to live as simple as possible, and looking into a way to have other like mind around and perhaps living close and helping each other in some ways, I don't see how bad it can be, but if it does, good sense must kick in literally.

thanks for keep posting Pris :)


You're welcome, palehorse! Same to you, thanks for the interesting exchange.

When it comes to the idea of "simplicity" and pure happiness in how one might live (alone or with someone else)... My utopian idea is living/surviving on a desert island in a nice, warm, tropical place, off the map with just enough banana and coconut trees lol. Now, that's about as simple as it gets (in tune with nature). What we lived through (specifically 2020-2021) can make anyone want to find their own island and disappear, am I right?

I'm not a big fan of technology because it is almost always weaponized against us. It's too bad, too, because I've had a bit of fun with it... like being on this forum. :typing: On the other hand, it means I have less time to "whittle wood".

I totally get where you're coming from with the "blueprints" not necessarily meaning hi-tech. My Borg example wasn't meant to be taken literally (as hi-tech). Because, the same "blueprints" issues will happen with low-tech "solutions". For example, there could be blueprints/rules having to do with agriculture and/or landscaping. A community might decide that everyone must have a single apple tree in their front yard (for whatever reason), no exceptions. What if you're someone who doesn't want an apple tree, maybe you want an apricot tree? Maybe you want many trees. What if you're someone who wants flowers? Or, a rock garden? Or, maybe, you don't want a front yard at all and you want the entire thing paved over. I liken it to how stratas work... Are pets allowed etc. etc. What if you don't want to live near any neighbors (loud, obnoxious, or otherwise)? How tall can you build a fence and what material can it be built out of? It's generally a restrictive-and-resentment-building pain in the arse. Anyway, all I can think is there may be multiple types of small communities doing their own thing with their own rules... and a person gets to decide which one they'd prefer to live in (if they're even interested) should a space open up. Or, they start their own. Or, they avoid people altogether.

Anarchy, yes. Well armed. Limited rules (if you can agree on them lol) without rulers. Sovereign. No "overarching" rulers, no bullies, no dictators, no "authority".


If I could find a tribe like this one, I may consider joining: :thumb:


Red Dwarf Theme Song


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zV0hwZwNQZc

Red Dwarf (Theme Song Lyrics)


It's cold outside, there's no kind of atmosphere,
I'm all alone, more or less.
Let me fly, far away from here,
Fun, fun, fun, In the sun, sun, sun.

I want to lie, shipwrecked and comatose,
Drinking fresh, mango juice,
Goldfish shoals, nibbling at my toes,
Fun, fun, fun, In the sun, sun, sun,
Fun, fun, fun, In the sun, sun, sun.

[shaberon]

I picture this whole thing as low tech and primitive lifestyle, blueprints does not refers to high tech only.


I am going to try to mix this in with what I have to say today.

First of all, I am going to do this, as I scanned the overall "Living Things" sub-forum and what do you see. It is almost all stories, reports.

Something external, outside of ourselves, being subjectively fed in to us with communications technology.

There is almost nothing about actual projects where anyone is actually doing anything with any living things.

Once, I think it was here, was a pretty good saga of a horse-dragged farm in New Zealand. It was a great example! But otherwise, there is not much that is actually about anything, it is all third-hand reports. Strangely, that means there is nowhere that is exactly fitting for me to talk about things that happen.

I have agreed more than once that a sustainable future is probably more along the lines of hand tools and animals than batteries and robots.

That being said, I do not agree with the Maurice Strong type of idea to simply "turn off" oil, which I suppose is reflected in those ridiculous ideas to carbon tax us in 2030 or something like that. Witness Black Rock getting kicked out of several "Republican" states for even saying so.

It is a precarious position where Big Oil should not, of course, walk all over the environment, but, we cannot just throw away the machines and industries we already have. They are indeed useful and helpful as in the following anecdote.

In the same way as I constantly slag medical tyranny, it is mostly because Allopathic Medicine is supposed to treat acute symptoms, i. e. injuries, emergencies, and so on...that does not mean it should walk all over other medical schools, but, it does have a place.


Today I needed some things like a gas powered vehicle and some ultrasound equipment, not the most advanced technology in the world, but not a pile of sticks from the woods either.

Circularly, the reasons for needing them may be due to technology itself.

We already found out about this the hard way, and, it stems from naivete' or a misguided ignorance.

This is because we had gotten some goats as pets, and, we lost the Pygmy about exactly one year ago because of stones. Male goats have a complex, difficult urethra which makes them much more prone to stones than the females. And what aggravates this much worse is giving them human food.

So, you can understand the catch...it is a pet and you like to feed it/share something you have, and we did, and that is actually really bad for them.

I am not sure that I can emphasize that enough, because, it is really only in recent years that people like us have been attracted to keeping goats as pets. At least around here. As we found out, yes, a lot of them are raised, but, they literally are "meat goats". So they never live long enough for anyone to put much thought into health complications that arise as they go up in years.

Yes, they can eat almost anything without actually getting sick from it, but, on a habitual basis, most human food is going to overload them with minerals and additives that they simply cannot filter and excrete, and it forms stones.

Accordingly, the second, Nubian goat is much bigger, and he made it to some point earlier this year, when, having learned from the first, we had the stones in mind and got a field medic to come out and do the treatment.

At the time, we were told that meant a pretty good chance that he will have more.

So, I got up today, went out and saw him, came in and surfed a bit perhaps going to post something, and a few other things similar to a person's daily routine. But there is a method to anything I do, and part of that is, every single day of his life I have seen my baby at least twice, usually more. I am monitoring the situation, instead of just dropping off food and ignoring him like livestock, which is the best he could otherwise hope for.

So I went out the second time, and it was like the flip of a switch. Something was *wrong*. No time was lost informing the owner, and quickly came to the decision we would go to the state emergency vet.

I was informed that he passed a stone, so again, prompt reaction was crucial.

These are some of the dearest pets that you can have. Any of them that you pick up is most likely a rescue from a Halal dinner plate. But, they are extremely metabolically sensitive, you must understand this.

Once you have had a full life and can pass away somewhat calmly and peacefully, that is fine. Cutting a normal lifespan in half by something that is quite painful is what we will try to prevent, and so it is the cars, phones, and other modern equipment that has helped us here.

I hope that counts as "working with" nature, despite the use of artificial means to correct a likely self-induced problem from the wrong foodstuffs.

I know it means something to him, since he is so wonderfully friendly I know he appreciates having human attention. Our goat can nose kiss our cat! But that is just my influence rubbing off. Most people are averse to it. That shows me something like a root-level problem. I do not think many are well adjusted to nature or other people, and I just cannot estimate how bad that really is, or how or what part of the environment may react to them.

Right now it is like cutting off an addiction, since I cannot just walk out there, and I am not sure how long he is going to be kept for observation...but I am sure this was better than ignoring him overnight. My current beliefs require me to do things to make up for what happened to the Pygmy, and several similar things, or I will go straight to hell. Perhaps others do not feel this kind of compulsion. Otherwise they would not be so uptight about things that are generally comforting to mammals. I suppose they think they are a personality instead of an animal. Something like that is the true "artificial" which removes you from nature, and, I would say, leads to unpleasant fates.

[palehorse]

...
You're welcome, palehorse! Same to you, thanks for the interesting exchange.

When it comes to the idea of "simplicity" and pure happiness in how one might live (alone or with someone else)... My utopian idea is living/surviving on a desert island in a nice, warm, tropical place, off the map with just enough banana and coconut trees lol. Now, that's about as simple as it gets (in tune with nature). What we lived through (specifically 2020-2021) can make anyone want to find their own island and disappear, am I right?


Absolutely, I know many in that situation.. but in the end even with the world falling in pieces around them, they still have hope or faith (I don't know what is that lol) to keep believing in salvation, the worse is, salvation from their government. anyway.



I'm not a big fan of technology because it is almost always weaponized against us. It's too bad, too, because I've had a bit of fun with it... like being on this forum. :typing: On the other hand, it means I have less time to "whittle wood".


If it was used correctly I would probably be working with that, but when you see that your work is nothing more than creating thing to be used against others for exploitation (think of marketing), that is it, you either turn a blind eye and keep going or you throw it away, that is what I did, but yet I still use low-tech to communicate with others and do things. I miss the internet when it was a cool place!!! Avalon is one of the last places we can enjoy it and meet amazing souls.



I totally get where you're coming from with the "blueprints" not necessarily meaning hi-tech. My Borg example wasn't meant to be taken literally (as hi-tech). Because, the same "blueprints" issues will happen with low-tech "solutions". For example, there could be blueprints/rules having to do with agriculture and/or landscaping. A community might decide that everyone must have a single apple tree in their front yard (for whatever reason), no exceptions. What if you're someone who doesn't want an apple tree, maybe you want an apricot tree? Maybe you want many trees. What if you're someone who wants flowers? Or, a rock garden? Or, maybe, you don't want a front yard at all and you want the entire thing paved over. I liken it to how stratas work... Are pets allowed etc. etc. What if you don't want to live near any neighbors (loud, obnoxious, or otherwise)? How tall can you build a fence and what material can it be built out of? It's generally a restrictive-and-resentment-building pain in the arse. Anyway, all I can think is there may be multiple types of small communities doing their own thing with their own rules... and a person gets to decide which one they'd prefer to live in (if they're even interested) should a space open up. Or, they start their own. Or, they avoid people altogether.


Yep, it is a bit trick, but the idea is just to provide a field guide for those interested in start on their own and don't know how to do it, lets say someone living in metropolis decided to pull the plug and pursue a more meaningful life in the country side or in an isolated coast or even in the mountains, people usually do their "homework" before get into these things, but it is never enough, the homework is just a little insight and it is not always practical. I mean if one want to plant long beans, it is necessary to know the soil, amount of water, save seed for next season, harvesting, prepare a meal with it, preserve the excess like in conserves or just dry and so on.. it seems simple but it is not really, takes lots of time and dedication and patience, I would say it is like art of doing it and see the results, in other words the whole process is beautiful :) now imagine if one decide to introduce animals, the effort just keep growing, people living on their own, usually are very busy, it all depends how many things one want to introduce in their own system.. I see it as grow as you can and able to do, no rush and no pressure, there is nothing to compete with.



Anarchy, yes. Well armed. Limited rules (if you can agree on them lol) without rulers. Sovereign. No "overarching" rulers, no bullies, no dictators, no "authority".



Yes, yes and yes


If I could find a tribe like this one, I may consider joining: :thumb:


Red Dwarf Theme Song


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zV0hwZwNQZc

Red Dwarf (Theme Song Lyrics)


It's cold outside, there's no kind of atmosphere,
I'm all alone, more or less.
Let me fly, far away from here,
Fun, fun, fun, In the sun, sun, sun.

I want to lie, shipwrecked and comatose,
Drinking fresh, mango juice,
Goldfish shoals, nibbling at my toes,
Fun, fun, fun, In the sun, sun, sun,
Fun, fun, fun, In the sun, sun, sun.


ROFL, that is great, WTF is that dude washing the fuselage? I don't want that job :chuckle:

[palehorse]

I picture this whole thing as low tech and primitive lifestyle, blueprints does not refers to high tech only.


I am going to try to mix this in with what I have to say today.

First of all, I am going to do this, as I scanned the overall "Living Things" sub-forum and what do you see. It is almost all stories, reports.

Something external, outside of ourselves, being subjectively fed in to us with communications technology.

There is almost nothing about actual projects where anyone is actually doing anything with any living things.



There is Bill's thread "Mara return to the mountains" it is nice one, but most of it probably it is as you wrote, I understand the feeling.



Once, I think it was here, was a pretty good saga of a horse-dragged farm in New Zealand. It was a great example! But otherwise, there is not much that is actually about anything, it is all third-hand reports. Strangely, that means there is nowhere that is exactly fitting for me to talk about things that happen.

I have agreed more than once that a sustainable future is probably more along the lines of hand tools and animals than batteries and robots or as AGI


All sort of skills are necessary in order to be sustainable and it starts with each individual, but what we see today is the lack of it and everything moving so fast into digital everything. People have to get back to it despite of what the so many authorities dictate or promote in their propaganda, their vision of sustainable world is very different of the vision of a rancher, however the same word is used to define both. It is the same with large communities everywhere, once you start to read their plans and white papers backed on science of course or even join them, it all melt down to power and control in the hands of few, you are just another number in there, I never liked that idea of buying a piece of paradise haha


That being said, I do not agree with the Maurice Strong type of idea to simply "turn off" oil, which I suppose is reflected in those ridiculous ideas to carbon tax us in 2030 or something like that. Witness Black Rock getting kicked out of several "Republican" states for even saying so.

It is a precarious position where Big Oil should not, of course, walk all over the environment, but, we cannot just throw away the machines and industries we already have. They are indeed useful and helpful as in the following anecdote.

In the same way as I constantly slag medical tyranny, it is mostly because Allopathic Medicine is supposed to treat acute symptoms, i. e. injuries, emergencies, and so on...that does not mean it should walk all over other medical schools, but, it does have a place.


Today I needed some things like a gas powered vehicle and some ultrasound equipment, not the most advanced technology in the world, but not a pile of sticks from the woods either.


I totally got it, there is things that are very useful like diesel, generator, tractor, mechanical equipment of all sorts, tools, computers, radios, etc, etc..

It is hard topic to discuss specially the health topic which these globalists in power are responsible for so many deceases that was "introduced" into humankind, because after all it is business to keep people sick but alive and time enough to keep them in the loop to profit. Do we really need all these drugs? As a friend used to say, drugs are those synthetic things they create in labs, plants and animals provide cures for most common problems, the catch here is how you manipulate and combine them in order to fabricate a remedy to act upon certain malaise (it will be lost knowledge in a very close future), it was called alchemy before modern science replaced it. I was trying to imagine what it will be called after science is dead, because they have to keep pushing forward.



Circularly, the reasons for needing them may be due to technology itself.


it keep advancing does not matter what, but at the point we are living we see how exponentially fast it is going, who can follow it?



We already found out about this the hard way, and, it stems from naivete' or a misguided ignorance.

This is because we had gotten some goats as pets, and, we lost the Pygmy about exactly one year ago because of stones. Male goats have a complex, difficult urethra which makes them much more prone to stones than the females. And what aggravates this much worse is giving them human food.

So, you can understand the catch...it is a pet and you like to feed it/share something you have, and we did, and that is actually really bad for them.

I am not sure that I can emphasize that enough, because, it is really only in recent years that people like us have been attracted to keeping goats as pets. At least around here. As we found out, yes, a lot of them are raised, but, they literally are "meat goats". So they never live long enough for anyone to put much thought into health complications that arise as they go up in years.

Yes, they can eat almost anything without actually getting sick from it, but, on a habitual basis, most human food is going to overload them with minerals and additives that they simply cannot filter and excrete, and it forms stones.

Accordingly, the second, Nubian goat is much bigger, and he made it to some point earlier this year, when, having learned from the first, we had the stones in mind and got a field medic to come out and do the treatment.

At the time, we were told that meant a pretty good chance that he will have more.

So, I got up today, went out and saw him, came in and surfed a bit perhaps going to post something, and a few other things similar to a person's daily routine. But there is a method to anything I do, and part of that is, every single day of his life I have seen my baby at least twice, usually more. I am monitoring the situation, instead of just dropping off food and ignoring him like livestock, which is the best he could otherwise hope for.

So I went out the second time, and it was like the flip of a switch. Something was *wrong*. No time was lost informing the owner, and quickly came to the decision we would go to the state emergency vet.

I was informed that he passed a stone, so again, prompt reaction was crucial.

These are some of the dearest pets that you can have. Any of them that you pick up is most likely a rescue from a Halal dinner plate. But, they are extremely metabolically sensitive, you must understand this.

Once you have had a full life and can pass away somewhat calmly and peacefully, that is fine. Cutting a normal lifespan in half by something that is quite painful is what we will try to prevent, and so it is the cars, phones, and other modern equipment that has helped us here.

I hope that counts as "working with" nature, despite the use of artificial means to correct a likely self-induced problem from the wrong foodstuffs.

I know it means something to him, since he is so wonderfully friendly I know he appreciates having human attention. Our goat can nose kiss our cat! But that is just my influence rubbing off. Most people are averse to it. That shows me something like a root-level problem. I do not think many are well adjusted to nature or other people, and I just cannot estimate how bad that really is, or how or what part of the environment may react to them.

Right now it is like cutting off an addiction, since I cannot just walk out there, and I am not sure how long he is going to be kept for observation...but I am sure this was better than ignoring him overnight. My current beliefs require me to do things to make up for what happened to the Pygmy, and several similar things, or I will go straight to hell. Perhaps others do not feel this kind of compulsion. Otherwise they would not be so uptight about things that are generally comforting to mammals. I suppose they think they are a personality instead of an animal. Something like that is the true "artificial" which removes you from nature, and, I would say, leads to unpleasant fates.


I am sorry to hear that, I hope you can find the way around, it really seems the food is the problem. My auntie used to allow them to go into other fields to eat the grass, they also eat leaves with small branches from some trees not all trees works, be careful with even the supplements they sell elsewhere, it is usually very low grade in nutrients, to be frank it is high heated food scraps, high sodium, protein from melted bones/cartilages just like gelatine for humans but in dried form, they make the so called pellets, the same goes for dogs, cats, rabbits, any pet. Big market and crap nutrients.. see how many fat cats on internet, someone I know here her cat has diabetes, go figure.. I never knew cats could have it, but apparently it is true, she used to give what they call here desert for cats, high sugars and God knows what else inside.

If you have a field with hay, they love it, or just grass with bushes, they are supped to eat only that.

[Pris]

.

Once you have had a full life and can pass away somewhat calmly and peacefully, that is fine. Cutting a normal lifespan in half by something that is quite painful is what we will try to prevent, and so it is the cars, phones, and other modern equipment that has helped us here..


Landline phones, yes. :thumb:

[Pris]

.

I am sorry to hear that, I hope you can find the way around, it really seems the food is the problem. My auntie used to allow them to go into other fields to eat the grass, they also eat leaves with small branches from some trees not all trees works, be careful with even the supplements they sell elsewhere, it is usually very low grade in nutrients, to be frank it is high heated food scraps, high sodium, protein from melted bones/cartilages just like gelatine for humans but in dried form, they make the so called pellets, the same goes for dogs, cats, rabbits, any pet. Big market and crap nutrients.. see how many fat cats on internet, someone I know here her cat has diabetes, go figure.. I never knew cats could have it, but apparently it is true, she used to give what they call here desert for cats, high sugars and God knows what else inside.

If you have a field with hay, they love it, or just grass with bushes, they are supped to eat only that.


Palehorse, in your response to shaberon (help for goats, pets)... I might add something here (for shaberon). My research into food, water -- what makes things healthy/unhealthy, I've learned that the purer the food and water the better.

Raw food (for humans -- fruit, veggies, seeds, nuts...) and pure water (e.g. rainwater/precipitation, distilled water/machine distilled water). Pure water that is unencumbered by inorganic minerals helps to remove the inorganic minerals that can build up in the body (e.g. kidney stones, arthritis, accelerated aging etc). I would guess this applies to all living things. My diet isn't perfect lol, but I try to eat lots of raw food everyday. And, I try to drink up to a gallon per day of pure water. When I cook I don't fry, only bake or boil. Except for condiments, I don't add salt or sugar. For oil I only use olive oil and coconut oil, and I avoid processed foods. I make my own sourdough rye bread and vegan yogurt. Generally, I avoid taking vitamin and mineral supplements (very rarely) because I don't trust them (inorganic minerals). That's the tip of the iceberg when it comes to what I do to "stay healthy" but that's a good intro.

Although I've not ever had a goat, I've had guinea pig pets most of my life. There's nothing they love more than a handful of grass and dandelions. Main diet included alfalfa and Timothy hay plus piggy pellets and water (distilled starting from 2012 when I learned about it). Also included were raw veggies like leaf lettuce, carrot, celery, cucumber, and a wee bit of fruit like orange, banana, apple.



https://i0.wp.com/www.wehuntedthemammoth.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/64787-guinea-pigs-chewing-slowly-om-HGAe.gif?resize=360%2C270

[shaberon]

It is hard topic to discuss specially the health topic which these globalists in power are responsible for so many deceases that was "introduced" into humankind, because after all it is business to keep people sick but alive and time enough to keep them in the loop to profit. Do we really need all these drugs? As a friend used to say, drugs are those synthetic things they create in labs, plants and animals provide cures for most common problems, the catch here is how you manipulate and combine them in order to fabricate a remedy to act upon certain malaise (it will be lost knowledge in a very close future), it was called alchemy before modern science replaced it. I was trying to imagine what it will be called after science is dead, because they have to keep pushing forward.


Well--most drugs are synthesized from plants and animals, so, the source is in some ways the same as that of the alchemists.

One of the main differences is the use of petroleum to run the syntheses.

And, yes, I strongly think it is the "business of disease". Even with something minor like acne, historically this affected only around 3-5% of any population, but in these countries where we rely on processed foods it is endemic, 50%, or even more.

Another disturbing factor is automobiles. Tremendous revelation--if you are not in a car, you cannot be in a car wreck!

But how many today will be injured or killed, mainly because at least in the States, we axed public transportation in the 1930s.

Such science is dead, or, rather, stillborn, having earned the name of Dead Souls Science. This could be called intentional since probably around the 1600s, even before medical issues starting with vaccines. What does it revolve on, fear of death.


Today the doctor told me the culprit is feed, exactly as I described. It is made so that a young goat gets big for slaughter, that is it. No intention of it being a lifetime diet. She said the presence of lime or calcium in well water does not really do it--stones come from the imbalances of potassium, phosphorus, etc., which is going to be caused by animal feed, and, just about any kind of human food.

They cannot eat chocolate, ever (toxic).

Now say you have organic chips that only contain corn, oil, and salt. Something like that would be ok for a treat once a week. But not something like Cheetos that takes a science degree to read the ingredients.

The result is that hay + forage is adequate, there is no particular need to feed them "something".

We were told that the quick response was important, again in most cases a goat will hide pain, so by the time he started crying, he was probably almost dead. Fortunately, he has a good chance for a comeback as ultrasound shows it is sand/chalky powder, not the larger calcified rocks, and so with the proper diet he can probably get through this without ordeals.



Back to the theme of "nature strikes back"--I may have mistakenly said this was a cycle, but, it was just a single 4.2 Kiloyear Event (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/4.2-kiloyear_event):


It has been hypothesised to have caused the collapse of the Old Kingdom in Egypt, the Akkadian Empire in Mesopotamia, and the Liangzhu culture in the lower Yangtze River area. The drought may also have initiated the collapse of the Indus Valley Civilisation, with some of its population moving southeastward to follow the movement of their desired habitat...



which was not really even global, as other areas got extra wet at this time (e. g., Amazon).

But you do see the demise of "the world" starting around 2,200 B. C. E., by drought at least being a factor in breaking those four civilizations. No, it did not wipe out the planet, but probably did eliminate crop surplus which we might say is the difference between a civilization and any subsistence farmer.


This gives me an idea. I have not gotten this from anywhere. And it is backwards because now we will say that Absence of Evidence is Evidence of Absence of The Great Flood Myth.

Why would I do that--we have spent years talking about how Manu is the Indian Noah, and Dagon Oannes is a Chaldean one, that there was Atlantis and an Ice Age, and sea level definitely rose, by quite a distance.

But over the course of four or five thousand years, a rising sea is not really a Biblical flood, is it?

But almost every culture says something about a flood, so, the planet must have gotten really rained out, right?

As it turns out, the Indian announcement about Manu and the Flood first appears in Satapatha Brahmana, which cannot be much older than about 300 B. C. E., and in this text it occupies a whole six lines, and the subject is really something else.

The detailed version of the story is from Matsya Purana which places it around the year 500 or so.

On this, India does not begin to compete with Mesopotamia or even the Book of Genesis for origin of the story, and so there is a good chance they received and adapted it.

It is not in the Vedas because the Vedas have:


No stories.

At most, they have "pictures", "scenes", or "incidents", which is why the Puranas were created, i. e. to provide the stories. There is simply an incredible gap, since the Rg Veda cannot hardly be younger than 1,500 B. C. E., and no extant Purana can be much older than around 200, most of them probably not forming up until 600-1,000.

The national epic Mahabharata was composed between those two periods, based on events whose actuality is a matter of extreme concern for Indians.

There, one easily finds memories of specific flood events, including the submergence of Dwarka, and, the flooding of Hastinapur by the Ganges River. Both of these turn out to be objective facts.

They simply do not line up to the way Indians want them to.

Dwarka has been settled eight times, and appears to have crashed under the sea three times.

Geology so far says that Hastinapur was deluged around 800 B. C. E.

This means that the events in the Mahabharata occurred around 900 to, maybe, 1,200 B. C. E., almost positively within that range somewhere.


That means that most of the Puranas are not literally true. It is not that hard to take their astronomical figures and find that Krishna's death and the beginning of Kali Yug were in 3,102 B. C. E.

And that is just an arbitrary calculation and not any type of living record. And the calculation is Puranic or was created around 4-500.


So they actually do have stories about floods, but, nothing about The Flood. And so as soon as we check out Satapatha Brahmana, then, my instinct tells me that it is supposed to be symbolic.

Well, that is one of the points that we are trying to make about the Vedas, is that, for example, sacrifice is symbolic.

They are simply symbolic of reality and Yoga or Dharma practice.

It is also cosmological, in other words there was a "Flood" or Water, which for instance Vishnu as Boar Faced Varaha lifts the earth from the waters. This symbol we would say is equivalent to the beginning of Genesis, and of course to Absu and any Babylonian or Egyptian telling of it, or Varuna in India, all having to do with Water in the form of Darkness and the awakening of Divine Breath.

Separation of the material or physical plane out of the mental cosmos.

When hybridized, Indian Manu is really taking the roles of Noah and Adam at once. Before this Flood Manu was, perhaps, imported, the basic understanding of Manu is as a Mind-Born Son of Brahma. I am not sure that other traditions reflect a Mental Primordial Man.


Is it possible they somehow missed an actual Flood that covered almost all of the land? Could that have been a Mesopotamian secret owing to the fact that they pursued writing?? It may be that the whole Universal Flood Myth is supposed to be symbolic, and that it is not evidence for a real event of that nature.

From focusing on the Puranas, I have long been running under the notion that the Flood must have happened, and that it also represents the formation of earth's crust. If there is no racial memory of a real flood, then, chances are there is not exactly a memory of the planetary formation, either. And so I am coming to the opinion that these are ideas that have been projected onto the Puranas.


I think we can be pretty sure that the planet did form, but, I am feeling the withdrawal of the claim that the whole thing has been subsequently inundated.

It is definitely a Myth which has a meaning, which could be the arising of the cosmos from the mind of the deity, or, one's personal existence. Upon close examination, I don't think there are any options, like a set of handcuffs.

There is an option if you look for the planetary alignment when Krishna was killed, numerous other dates are possible, and it is probably the case that 500 million Hindus will refuse to look, because the evidence does not suit their fixation on the time period. Krishna probably was a real person, who may have been approximately cotemporaneous with King Saul of Israel.

For example, retrieving a single 7,000 year old piece of wood from Dwarka does not really tell us the settlement was that old, but, many of them take it as utter and final proof. Instead, its stone anchors match ones that Indians are known to have spread to Oman, etc., around 1,200 B. C. E., and we wouldn't accuse those of drifting in currents and washing ashore randomly. Therefor, a solitary timber is less convincing than multiple anchors.


On the other side, I do not think the Book of Genesis existed before the Babylonian Captivity. That makes it hard to say about any literary evidence for "Adam" as "First Man" prior to this. If someone from there told an Indian about Adam, he would, of course, immediately translate it to Manu. And here, if we take the Mandaean version then we do find the esoteric doctrine of Adam which is practically the same as Manu.

Around the time of those stone anchors is when we find the design of middle eastern sailing vessels which are able to cross the Indian Ocean rather than ply the coastline. Gaining this ability, one finds their destinations would have been first Dwarka, and then Sri Lanka.

That means it is possible that Arabic sailors could have been to Sri Lanka around 1,000 B. C. E. and why the name Adam's Peak is because Arabs believe that is where Adam was. Mandaeans say the same thing. There is no reason they would simply agree with Islam which is much later. But they may have agreed with pre-Islamic Arabs or Nabateans in some way.


If there was a drought which withered the major cultures, do we find this passed down generationally like a Flood Myth?

It was not really that long ago, well within the age of writing, and it is exactly this which conspicuously seems to be missing from Indian literature. And at that, a process of desertification kept going until the Takla Makan or Tarim Basin was rendered to its current state by around 600. I don't know what other places say.

Until this gets sorted, I am suggesting the Flood never happened, and the Drought is an ersatz answer for the premise of this thread.

"Nature beliefs" characterizes them all, doesn't it? Why wouldn't they realize something similar was happening to them all? I am presuming there are some kind of records, but it does not seem familiar from any of the mythologies as an event. The principle of the sun "drinking" water is an entity in India and Chaldea at least. But not doom or the destruction of civilization or humanity like this.

[palehorse]

Hi Shaberon,

regarding drug synthesis I mean the process to get a "final product" they use not only petroleum, but also bacteria/microbes, they use targeted mutation of some biosynthetic genes, mRNA is used as gene therapy as well, all drugs manufacturing is moving toward that direction, it will be all about gene therapy in the near future. As we can observe it is moving from natural to artificial, to see the contrast of it, take for example the indigenous tribes that still living in isolation and self sustainable way in the Amazon basin up to this days, now take the modern world with all the technologies and drugs, then compare the inhabitants of the indigenous tribe and the citizens of the modern world, first observation is about cancer, there is no cancer, not a single case in any of these tribes that are living in isolation, FUNAI in Brazil has more information about that, cancer was found with indigenous population that was socially integrated into society since the 70's but not with the ones that are living on their own. We are reluctant to accept some simple facts, specially about health, but it is what it is, when I first came into contact with these things I didn't believe none of it, how could that be right.. Oh! I am not saying all these synthetic drugs are bad, nope, the problem with modern pharma (they are greedy) and their morals are evil, it could work if good morality comes to the table, they go from compound collection to clinical trials (if applicable) in record time without getting properly into toxicity/metabolism (minimal toxic effects and metabolic stability), without saying that many of the tests are just simulated with software (no humans involved in trials), then designing the final product (drug) and marketing it and we know all the rest. Anyway this whole thing is over complex above my understanding and I don't want to write anything that I don't know. Keep it simple approach is the best in most cases in my humble opinion, let nature take care of its course :)

Yes agree with the acne and cars, this is great comparison, if you don't eat junky the chances to have acne reduces a lot, same with the car if not getting into a car it reduces the chances greatly.


" Today the doctor told me the culprit is feed, exactly as I described. It is made so that a young goat gets big for slaughter, that is it. No intention of it being a lifetime diet. She said the presence of lime or calcium in well water does not really do it--stones come from the imbalances of potassium, phosphorus, etc., which is going to be caused by animal feed, and, just about any kind of human food."

Glad you confirmed the case, I suspected too it was that. It is the same with livestock and poultry.

Cheetos?? hahaha

[Ashiris]

I once read somewhere that our space brothers and sisters consider the human race the only race of ALL races in all Universes that destroys the planet that feeds them.
I as a human being think that statement is completely untrue.
Here is an article that describes exactly what my opinion is as well.

As we emerge from a Dark Aeon, we have a better vantage point from which to view just how decrepit and destructive the thoughtforms of the past mind-controlled reality had become. During this massive shift of the ages these constructs are slowly losing integrity, allowing much more freedom to move out of highly controlled structures and thoughts forms. For this reason, those working against humanity and consciousness expansion are desperately trying to shore up the disintegrating and obsolete structures, which brings us to the topic of Absurdism. Absurdism is found within practicing satanism, as it shares a common theoretical template with existentialism and Moral Nihilism. Absurdism is opposed to a spiritual context, holding a fundamental denial of the soul's existence and purpose, and a total denial of higher consciousness in achieving a higher morality or Perfect Peace. Either in life or death, absurdism states that all that exists is in a state of suffering, which forces people to live in a world where only their immediate needs, desires and wants are important, not their fellow human beings.

This philosophy drives the Social Engineering of the Death Culture that is shaped by the Negative Alien Agenda , to infuse absurdism into the minds of the masses to have complete disregard for life. Therefore, encouraging rampant killing and deviance, promoting destruction and chaos to become normalized and accepted in societal behavior. This negative behavior repels the inner spirit away from the individual which increases the sensation of personal suffering, which falsely reaffirms the absurdist philosophy. The more chaotic and destructive humanity becomes, the more absurd the outer reality, which allows Loosh to be generated and extracted for satanic agendas.

In absurdist philosophy, the Absurd arises out of the fundamental disharmony between the individual's search for meaning and the meaninglessness of the universe. As beings looking for meaning in a meaningless world, the absurdist philosophers boldly state that humans have three ways of resolving the dilemma. Obviously, none of the three options being presented are inherently spiritual or acknowledge the divine purpose in seeking one's spiritual lessons in life. Instead, the philosophy of "the Absurd" refers to the conflict between the human tendency to seek inherent value and meaning in life and the human inability to find any.

Accordingly, absurdism is a philosophical school of thought stating that the efforts of humanity to find inherent meaning will ultimately fail (and hence are absurd), because the sheer amount of information as well as the vast realm of the unknown make total certainty impossible. As a philosophy, absurdism further explores the fundamental nature of the Absurd and how individuals, once becoming conscious of the Absurd, should respond to it. The absurdist philosopher Albert Camus stated that individuals should embrace the absurd condition of human existence while also defiantly continuing to explore and search for meaning.

Social Norms Mirror Theatre of the Absurd
To maximize the efficiency of the Negative Alien Agenda’s gradual takeover of the planet through psychological warfare, their goal is to intentionally destroy moderate social norms and humanitarian value systems, in order to covertly infiltrate the main societal organizational structures of humanity. Social Norms are based on familiar understandings that govern the behavior of members in a society. The role of norms as collective consciousness representations, effectively control and guide human behavior through mental representations that inform appropriate behavior. The covert mainstream agenda is to shape social norms into more extremism and fanaticism, to bring forth the Theatre of the Absurd and absurdist behavior. Essentially, forming a reality bubble that is devoid of meaning through extinguishing humanitarian values, personal Accountability and common sense, breaking society down into a well-designed parody of tragic comedy.

Absurdism is a philosophical school of thought stating the belief that human beings exist without meaning, purposelessly floating in a chaotic universe. In the culture wars promoting the Theatre of the Absurd, the struggle is the human tendency to seek inherent value and meaning in life and God, when there is no meaning or God to be found. The destructive and bloody aftermath of World War II stimulated absurdist views to rationalize human anguish and annihilation, which allowed for its popular development in many of the war-torn social environments. Black Sun Programming took advantage of this vulnerable time in human history to up their game, through advancing Social Engineering experiments into absurdism. Hence, using this same playbook covid became the new religion.

Thus, our 3D world was socially engineered to produce a myopic mental polarization upon gratifying purely physical sensations and indulging excessive materialistic based pursuits based pursuits, to produce a spiritually bankrupt population. When we look to the outer at this stage of the bifurcation and wonder how humanity got to this point of absurdity, it becomes clearer that this was always the plan of the Controllers. Such a superficial culture is set up to place value on gaining power and control in any way that fosters instant gratification for selfish motivations, rewarding those without Impulse Control or Empathy. When there is no value or meaning given to life, there is no Accountability, no moral or ethical consideration towards the consequences of actions that are directly related to radically increasing world pain and human suffering, such as what happened in World War II. Thus, this absurdist social climate intentionally destroys integrity to produce psychopathic behaviors, making it increasingly hard to energetically interact with many of the corrupt 3D systems.

The antidote to the absurdist behavior fueling Satanism is to choose to act and behave as an ethical person. Many philosophers of ancient wisdom have written in depth treatise on ethics, morality and virtues, and most all of it has a basis in following Universal Natural Laws, which are guidance mechanisms left for the people. However, there can be no strict adherence to exacting labels that try to define and describe the nature of ethics, as all aspects can be interpreted differently by each and every person. That is why each person must find the true meaning of virtue-based ethics in the contents of their own heart and soul. In closing, we leave you with an inspirational quote by Marcus Aurelius which demonstrates the value of making a difference through being ethical:

“Waste no more time arguing about what a good man should be. Be one.

References: Absurdism - Ascension Glossary
https://ascensionglossary.com/index.php/Absurdism

[shaberon]

Hi Shaberon,

regarding drug synthesis I mean the process to get a "final product" they use not only petroleum, but also bacteria/microbes, they use targeted mutation of some biosynthetic genes, mRNA is used as gene therapy as well, all drugs manufacturing is moving toward that direction, it will be all about gene therapy in the near future.


Definitely. Petroleum simply equals an early and rather fundamental stepping stone and it can only get worse from there.

I recently witnessed demise by chemotherapy, and, from what I saw, I would opt for a bullet in the head.

Yes, cancer is mostly modern, which is why the American Cancer Society is a fraud, and the money maker up to around 1980 when the regime of ever-new vaccines kicked in.

Human cancer has quite a bit in common with the goat issues I have been forced to witness. Both are primarily out of the wrong diet. Sure, you could attribute cancer to other sources like if you eat radioactive sludge or breathe benzene from car exhaust which is 10,000 times more carcinogenic than cigarette smoke, which pans out to a spectrum of things you might not ought to ingest.

The goat is simple, since he would not normally dig potatoes or pick oranges from the top of the tree. His range is from the ground to maybe five or six feet up. Stuff like blueberries is in that, but nature isn't usually going to provide an orchard, just a few skimpy patches.

I have to do this again because it is traumatizing.

With these incidents you will notice a kind of timer.

Dinky the Pygmy was a dwarf and that was a year ago in September.

Day 1 I noticed his personality went flat. A bit off, but you don't normally call that an emergency.

Day 2 I noticed he didn't eat everything and was doing a whole lot of "just standing there". I did not like that so I told his owner.

Lacking foreknowledge, we put a lot of time into trying to diagnose, because you tend to think he has stomach worms, or a few other things that consist of "being sick". And on this yes we have a kit for some typical ailments which had seemed to help mild sickish symptoms in the past.

Nothing did anything.

Stones were way out at the tail end of our options, and as everything else was ruled out, that moved forward in likelihood. And we got about as far as what do we do if it's that, and his time ran out.


I'm going to suggest this is obscured by the advertising for feeds.

When you start going through the information, you get the basics and some preventative measures.

You need a big red warning label across the bag saying "Slaughter animals only. Not fit for pets, guaranteed to cause stones".

Instead, I was told years ago to give it to them daily.

It perhaps is debatable how much the human food was to blame--since that was not necessarily every day and was not always the same thing. Almost everything about the feed is going to do it, except they add the ammonium chloride and then most articles are on how beneficial that is.

I mean it's like putting sugar on cyanide.

I had to put in some initiative to pry further into this, and, if you are "lucky" (?), there are a few blog sites that manage to flip the "reserve explanation" into a big bold headline saying Do Not.

I picked through veterinary medicine and eventually found a few pictures of the bladders of some animals and what was found inside them was like a bag of grapeshot.

Not like a bit of sand or chalk dust, but like something you would actually buy in a store. An assortment of fishing weights.

That label with a few of those pictures needs to be aimed at the pet owner. You can't imitate a farm! It doesn't matter. Dinky was small and he made it five or six years.


A full-size goat makes it one more year than him.

And so this thing starts and I notice quickly and now we have this expectation so we are able to react better. A medic comes out and snips his pizzle, which is the real word for the tip of a goat's penis which is a bit like a corkscrew, and the urethra here is naturally thinner. When you whether or castrate the goat young--which we did--it will be thinner again. So he was blocked at the most vulnerable point.

That was effective for about two months and then it happened again and we took him in. That was what I was talking about two weeks ago.

And then comes time to pass another. That didn't work.

The invasive surgeries you can do are one is they open the bladder and scrape out the stuff, or, they can basically install a hose that runs out the side of the animal's body and you just clean it from time to time.

A catheter may be effective.

I don't know what I am up against so I am wondering if you can grab a chisel or something and remove more penis. It would make sense because the exam suggested it had worked down there.

A random chance is that the urethra has an S shape inside the body so the stone might be there.

Instead of the chisel or shears or whatever I found one person say they worked it out manually. There was blood involved but the goat seemed alright. It took a while to completely dislodge. Since our goat managed to pass the last one, I don't see why that is impossible. Rarely they have been said to pass multiple stones.

The goat can pass the stone or pass away.

More water will only make it worse.

That's just a time sensitive thing. Terrible. He can probably go 24 hours if you see this when it first happens, and past that is a gamble.

And so I'm thinking I'm going to get a mallet and a turkey baster.

It turns out there is a reason I didn't find anything about cutting the penis. The less-invasive surgery is an incision into the urethra inside the body. It is literally known as the "pee like a girl" operation.

I do not yet know if it involves a stim or catheter. But that is what is supposed to be going on right now.

I did find out that OSU is trying a thing that is a laser built in a fiber. Just slips in through their tube. Then you shoot rocks. It has effectively treated dogs and cats and they are beginning to try other species. I would think this would be super important in the goat world until that label is in place.

This is very different from humans, it is bladder stones, which are almost solely attributable to food, whereas humans usually get kidney stones, which came from fluids.

My understanding of this operation is that both ways work, in other words, if you acidify the urine enough, there is a chance that the stone in the penis will dissolve enough to pass.

Of course, that also tells us there is stuff rolling around in there bigger than the first one.

The main reason is that it is mainly a Phosphorous to Calcium ratio that the goat tries to maintain, and, normally in nature, excess Phosphorous is secreted into the saliva which causes him to pass it as feces. When you jam his limits, instead of passing to saliva, it gets pushed into his urine. And that is mainly how bladder stones get started. The kidney stone is more likely from Calcium from water.

Feed is not the sole cause, but giving it to them every day for years would definitely be a cause.

That is why I would say it might be more comparable to cancer in a human. Wrong additives, depletions, skewed ratios, takes a period of time and then something goes terribly wrong.

Obviously that which is more organic to organic beings would prevent us from knowing what perhaps should be forbidden knowledge.

I can assure you the quality of a real goat friendship is something you should know. I have nothing other than all my shortcomings to channel into his survival. I keep having para-psychotic episodes that make me bug out for a day or more. My brain waves peak high and then pan out to nothing. I hope this incision is a strong enough remedy for a man-made ailment. Morally I cannot justify or excuse myself for it. I just did what I was told under the rubric of general information. That is known to be dangerous, so, I don't accept it as a reason.

He has to live normally another five or six years so I may perform an Atonement.

[shaberon]

Stars and garters.

Just to let you know more about what happens when you mess up your animals.

My estimates about the surgery were not quite correct. It was not an incision. It was the complete removal of the appendage and then a section of urethra ported to a new exit. The plumbing actually works great.

It disqualifies the animal from any further related surgeries.

Here is the catch and here is where I have something to teach the vets, too.

It is a bit like saying Ivermectin is a synthetic substitute for wormwood.

The first report I got was that he has a "50% chance of making it".

That's intimidating, but not particularly informative.

I was not given a reason until the next day, which is kind of a long time for life-threatening emergencies.

They do not like to do this procedure because the 50% chance means that the goat will bleed out in three days. You can't styptic the surface wound because it may stricture. But that is not where the unusual pools of blood are coming from. It's internal bleeding, like a hemorrhage, as I suppose there is a fine mesh of blood vessels that take a sudden haircut.


One can ask Radha Krishna 2007 (https://www.utahkrishnas.org/cayenne-and-your-heart/). If that sounds too internet-anecdotal, try Southern Botanic Journal 1838 (https://books.google.com/books?id=kccWAAAAYAAJ&lpg=RA1-PA277&ots=fhU01EhcXo&dq=cayenne%20%22hemorrhage%22&pg=RA1-PA277#v=onepage&q=cayenne%20%22hemorrhage%22&f=false). Your best bet is Cayenne.

This may sound contradictory because it also contains salicylicates, i. e., a blood thinner, and so it does speed up the blood flow.

It is not just about capsacin, because then they would say any pepper would do it.

The complete profile of Cayenne induces Homeostasis, which is an umbrella term for making blood do everything it should: increase to certain organs, add or take away horomone levels, and so on. So although it can combat clots and plaque, if the need is for clotting, it will homeostasize to that. Strange but true. A few blogs do refer to animal use. In fact, it would be a remedy for most mammals, although Dog Blood works a little differently, related to why their saliva has anti-septic properties. Not sure about that one.

If you know that clots and plaque are serious problems, see what it says about heart attacks.

It has been used in midwifery.

In the case of childbirth, it stops postpartum internal bleeding, except there is one thing it cannot do which involves the lining of the uterus. But the surrounding areas are full of broken blood vessels, so it will help with that.

In the world of herbs, in descending order, Calendula, or Shepherd's Purse may also work.

A tincture is probably best but you would probably have to order it.

I went in the store and looked for any kind of supplement, and there was nothing.

I came back and looked through the spice cabinet, twice, since it should be there and there was nothing. So I went to the grocery, and for some reason a big bottle of organic was considerably cheaper than the small bottle of national brand. Elated by the irony, I returned with the delicious red salvation, and learned that the old bottle had made its way back from an undisclosed location and had been administered. By "old", it means when I put the new one down beside it, one of them is brown. It is almost completely full but it looks like nutmeg or something. I tried it and it still has some zing.

And so the poor goats get stones since we don't know how to feed them and half of them do not survive this operation since we do not know about Cayenne.

It may help humans and animals alike, and it can't hurt you. Plus, there are no options, or the vet would say "you can try...", and I just misunderstood the half statement because I thought it meant a good chance of him dying from stones.

What they did say is that if he survives the operation, then the prognosis regarding the stones is pretty good.

It may help in drastic situations like hemorrhages and heart attacks, since part of the key is that it is also fast-acting.

The opposite belief to the premise of this thread is plant knowledge and exchange of plants. Thomas Jefferson thought so. Cayenne is a subtropical plant that would have had to have been introduced to English speakers. That old doctor's journal reads much differently than the ones we have today. Cayenne isn't a "product". It hasn't got any "product knowledge" so it is like it does not exist.

Oh, and it is also a powerful styptic. Just mash it into a bleeding wound. There are, of course, several alternatives for that. But for internal problems it seems singularly potent.

[shaberon]

Either I had an uncanny sense of timing when posting the previous, or, Cayenne works.

The 1828 Journal actually says it was drawing on forty years of experience from millions of Americans. Recommends it as the best stimulant for pretty much everyone.

I think we were around 36 hours of constant dripping. Gave him the Cayenne and moved him to a different spot and when I checked a few hours later, hardly anything more came out.

It may have been the right time for it to stop on its own; I really don't want to go back and do any comparison testing. We are talking about not that much--a tablespoon, if that--for a nearly 300-pound beast (I don't know because another secret that was kept from me is how much he weighs).

I'm not the one saying it brought a person back from flatline, but that is reported. I will say that when you have a hemorrhage and nothing better to do, you might as well take a taste of fire.

[Ravenlocke]

https://x.com/elonmusk/status/1712509069070614845

1712509069070614845

https://babylonbee.com/news/lindsey-graham-calls-on-the-united-states-to-bomb-every-country-in-the-world

Lindsey Graham Calls On The United States To Bomb Every Country In The World

WASHINGTON, D.C. — As tensions escalate in the Middle East following the deadly terrorist attacks by Hamas on Israel, South Carolina Senator Lindsey Graham sought to resolve the conflict and restore peace to the region by calling for the United States to begin bombing every country in the world.

"It's the only solution," Graham said to reporters while advocating for even more hostilities. "If we want to restore peace throughout the world, the only realistic answer is to lay waste to every single nation around the globe."

"What about nations that have no involvement in the conflict?" asked reporter Michael Fuller.

"They're all involved," Graham answered. "Bomb ‘em all. Gone. All of ‘em. Bombs, bombs, bombs. Burn it all down, baby!"

"What about Paris?" Fuller asked.

"Have you seen the demographics of their population?" Graham responded. "Bomb ‘em."

"Montreal?" Fuller pressed.

"Make it a parking lot," Graham said resolutely.

"Tokyo?" Fuller asked, finally.

"Glass the place," Graham answered.

When asked what he expected to be the result of so much widespread bombing, Graham was indifferent. "They'll all know who's boss," he said. "Nothing will stabilize the entire world and ensure the safety of the American people like making every single country in the world hate the United States. On top of all that, some of us will also make massive amounts of money, so I'm very much in favor of this idea."

At publishing time, Graham had reportedly already made a series of phone calls to the Pentagon to inquire about how many "gigantic nukes" the U.S. currently has on hand.

[shaberon]

At publishing time, Graham had reportedly already made a series of phone calls to the Pentagon to inquire about how many "gigantic nukes" the U.S. currently has on hand.


Granted this is satire, it turns out not to be particularly amusing, since that basically is the conversation that the neighbors have been having since before I was born.


It is one thing to sort of lampoon it and show how base it really is, and then you kind of stop grinning once it sets in how serious and real it is.


And what is worse is that they are not always "raving supporters", but plain looking ordinary people who keep quiet and would never say this stuff publicly, while the fiber of their being is made of it.


I meant to say one more thing in honor of what we saw as Phosphorous in the role of goat metabolism.

In the pet world, as fertilizer, one can use goat and rabbit pellets immediately. They do not have to "cook" for thirty days or more like all other manures. The rabbit one is primarily a source of Nitrogen. The goat is going to give you trace minerals, since he is trying to pass them this way rather than through the bladder.

In volume, he does not compete with a bull, at least I hope not. But for lighter duty, pellets are amazing!

[Lunesoleil]

Hello Bill
The god of the Seas Neptune has been in the sign of Pisces since 2011, a water sign, he is in his element, he can swim like a Fish in water.
Seriously, there have never been so many floods in France.
Yes certainly nature is revolting against the destruction of the planet by man, the exhaustion of resources, the pollution of water, Earth, air...