The Indus script, aka the Harappan script, aka the WTH? - Deciphered. [Archive]

Jim_Duyer

5th December 2023, 18:54

This is a Whoo-Hoo moment for me. I had never had the courage to tackle the Indus Script in any serious way, but one of the comments on my other post here on PA asked me why I didn't try it? I had no good answer to that so I finally gave it a good look. This took me two days to translate. Which is not bragging, but more like begging the question of "why hasn't someone else done this much earlier?" for which I have no reply. Well, I have a reply, but it relates to my idea that nothing much is either accidental or coincidental - there is a reason relating to something, somewhere.

Yes, it is indeed true. Yesterday afternoon I finished my translation of a line of seven symbols written in the Indus Script, which until then had remained unintelligible. Yes, there have been a few attempts, and some reportedly near successes, but I have seen nothing previously that was more than either a guess or wishful thinking, usually on the part of some well-meaning locals who wished to pry out the words left them by their distant ancestors. I don't blame them. Most of you will take these statements as being egoistical in nature or a display of common bragging to us lesser folk, but it's more of a reaction or response to my personal excitement. If it sounds that way, skip to the next sentence and forgive me. I could stop doing it altogether, but that would be dishonestly phony.

I chose this example, out of the many available, due to this statement by our scholars: "It has one of the more complicated designs in the thousands of seals found from the Indus Valley civilization, and is unusual in having a human figure as the main and largest element; in most seals this is an animal." Why not start with the tough ones? Ha Ha. The example they give on wakipedia with 35 symbols looks easy to translate but I didn't use it because it shows a Yoga position but the guy doing it looks almost like a Satanic figure, right?

Can we now go on to tackle all of those writings in Indus Script, and perhaps disclose the great knowledge that those very gifted people wished to pass down? Yes. But not me - I'm actually really busy on other projects that I consider to be equally important.

Can we now begin to understand the writings of the Easter Island group, with, in my opinion, probably even greater secrets waiting to be revealed? (Think Lemuria and Atlantis). They use practically the same symbols as these Indus people. It's very possible. I would love to tackle that but I work alone, and I could not handle the scholarly attacks that would arise - they simply can't stand for those truths coming out. Because it indicates, quite simply, that a group of proto-Sumerian writers, and perhaps not Sumerians themselves, was over the face of nearly the entire planet, and at a period of earlier than 5000 years ago. The books that no longer can be used to teach with, the degrees and awards that no longer have the same meaning, the loss of funding and scholarship endowments - literally the end of our recording of history itself.
And we might wind up with unemployed scholars, who might then decide to run for public office.

When I solve the puzzle of an untranslatable piece of communication, my first objective is to understand both the 'what' of the piece and the how. How they did it is important, but what was included in the package that they wished us to understand is more important, in my opinion.

Many times the way in which they choose to craft the missive tells us quite a bit. For example, there are 17 words in the Sumerian dictionary for "man". From old man to a young man, working man, rich man, priestly man, etc. And there are 21 words for woman or female, including one that translates as "female burglar" ! So there was no shortage of words available for them to assign to the first figure, that which appears to be a man-like shape or stick figure, standing with arms out slightly.

Thzt position can be assumed to indicate a posture of peace - empty hands showing, so to speak. Or the outline of one open to learning, or awaiting the release of previously unrevealed knowledge - open hands, open body, equals open mind. It could even indicate a previously unknown position for meditation, that with arms at half-mast rather than their hands raised to the stars or down towards the feet.

But the reason that I mention this is because they choose to use a symbol that could easily equate to one of two symbols in ancient (proto) Sumerian symbology. And both of those symbols indicate "person" with no assignment as to either male or female. So they intentionally used a symbol that even if mistaken for another similar shape would still reward us with an idea of a person. Person as in, sex is not important. A Person, as in perhaps neither a man nor woman but a sky goddess that looks exactly like us and lives among us, granting us her knowledge and peaceful example.

So they appear to be going out of their way to make a point. These types of intentional placements of symbols, in a sentence of seven characters, tells us that this is intentional, and not coincidental.

The next characters speak of a god, or more properly a goddess. And in this case a mother goddess. But not just any mother goddess - this indicates the goddess described as the one who gave birth to the sky gods. She was known as the midwife to the gods themselves. Not to mankind, but to a higher purpose. And my opinion, based upon experience and not evidence at this point, tells me that she was considered as a person and not as your everyday "female" to those early people, simply because to them she was a presence in their lives. She was among them, so to speak. They very probably considered her as just another human, although elevated to the status of a goddess to the sky gods. In addition to her role as birth mother to the sky gods she was also referred to as the Mother of Earth or Earth Mother. She helped or caused the plants to flourish, the flowers to bloom. We see this same theme among nearly all of the cultures throughout the history of mankind on Earth. So perhaps we should pay more attention to this in future. It was important then - and perhaps even more so today; surely we need a Mother goddess to oversee what we are doing to our planet.

In the image below we have the symbols themselves above a man seated in a Yoga position. Modern scholars tell us that this may not represent that - but I have run down their bios and they are not actually scientists at all - more like paid shills for some group. The lead archaeologist of the early work done in Mohenjo-Daro claimed that it is a clear position known in Yoga, and I find that to be correct in my own opinion. He is wearing a horned helmet, which reinforces the Mother goddess idea of the text since her symbols include the horns of a cow in her role as Mother goddess and midwife.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Shiva_Pashupati.jpg

But even more interesting are the animals displayed. The two deer are also known symbols of the Mother goddess, and point to her role of mercy to the weak or newly born. But notice the display that they chose - Elephant, Tigre, Water Buffalo and Rhinocerous; all predators or fierce defenders of their turf from time to time, and yet they wander freely with deer, without any apparent attempt to feed upon them or to challenge each other. This is another attribute of the Mother goddess motif.

When, by the way, was the first historical evidence of war? Of an armed conflict that involved a dozen people or more slaughtering each other? Neanderthals? Nope - absolutely no evidence of that. Cro-Magnons? Nope. No evidence of that either - although some die-hard archaeologists attempt to show us one in Germany, involving a few dozen Cro-Magnon type tribal people - until the biologists pointed out that they died from disease, and had no obvious wounds. No, the first evidence of war is after the rise of the Sumerians and near to their fall to the Akkadians. The Semitic groups appear to have brought War to mankind (or their handlers more likely). This artifact showing a peaceful existence of animals, with a Mother goddess to look over mankind, is the way that mankind once lived and believed. The Mother goddess saw no need to direct her people to a new "promised" land that they needed to take by way of the murder of men, women and children.

Think Yoga. Think of the peaceful way of life taught in Hindu, Buddhist, Shinto, Tibetan and other religions of the far-East. Doesn't it seem to be the child of this early idea, written on tablets so long ago in our past? To say nothing of the Christ who taught the same ideas.

By the way, this Mother goddess was named in Sumerian lore, and although other names were given her by nearby civilizations, they all chose to have one at hand. This idea was popular from Tibet through to the Celts of Europe and on to the Native Americans and Pacific Islanders as well.

When I use Sumerian proto-symbols to translate the text, and the Sumerian dictionary to define it, we can not, and should not, assume that the Indus Valley Civilization did not have their own underlying language that they used for these symbols. In fact we must assume that they did.

I can translate the symbols but I do not understand nor am I familiar with, whatever words in whatever language that they spoke when shown those same symbols. But actually it doesn't really matter - as long as we can pry meaning out of them, and then translate that transliteration into English, we can understand clearly what they wished to tell us.

In other words, I don't need to understand the spoken language of the natives - just their clear intentions in their choice of symbols. This acts as a sort of (notice I say sort of as in not really) what we might call a Rosetta Stone system of translating. So, no magic involved, no 'Sitchin-like' channeling - just language, and a familiarity with the proto forms involved.

The first symbol indicates "person". The second is Nagar, and there are cities or areas with that name today found in Bangladesh; India; Iran; Pakistan; and Syria - or in other words, all of the areas that India traded with in ancient times, and all of the areas that at one point in time used a form of Sumerian cuneiform as their written language. But in this case the Nagar represents one of the ways that the Mother goddess name was spelled, with Ninhursag, Ninurtu, Ninmah ("Great Queen"); Nintu ("Lady of Birth"), Mami (mother); Aruru, Belet-Ili (mistress of the gods, Akkadian) being just some of the others. The mother goddess had many epithets including shassuru or 'womb goddess', tabsut ili 'midwife of the gods', as well as 'mother of all children' and 'mother of the gods'.

Although I disagree with the mother of all children idea - this was a later addition performed by the Akkadians and Amorite-Babylonians, since the Sumerians simply knew her as the mother of the gods and our Earth Mother while she was down below among mankind. It's amazing to me that with the many years of learning that our scholars are supposed to have received, they still manage to confuse Sumerian terms with Akkadian, or Akkadian with Amorite-Hittite, and mix up the timelines beyond recognition as well. Or perhaps that is intentional.

Here's another lie laid to rest. How many of you practice Yoga in one style or another? Were you not told that this arose with the Vedic texts, prior to the formal formation of the Hindu religion, and dating to about 1200 BC? That's what the scholars tell us in their papers. But here we have a Yogic pose, clearly, from Mohenjo-Daro territory, dating to at the very least 2500 BC, again according to our scholars. But wait! The proto form of Sumerian, clearly visible here, ceased to be used after 3100 BC! So yes, this writing that I worked on takes Yoga in its earliest form back to 3100 BC, if not earlier. And Mohenjo-Daro as well, obviously.

Yoga meditation can thus be safely dated to have its origins as early as 5000 years ago, if not earlier. And to have originally been associated with a peaceful, mother goddess type of understanding.

The third word is Korun2, which gives us: to be good, to be sweet.
The fourth symbol is Ur, defined as lion, indicated below by the tiger drawing. This is yet another symbol aligned with the Mother goddess or her offspring. By the way, she is said to have been related to Ki, meaning Earth, so she's a very early goddess indeed - from the time when Enki, the lord of the sky and Earth was setting up his counsels.

The fifth and seventh symbols caused me the most loss of time. But then my experience with the ways in which Sumerian was written by other cultures kicked in. Symbols were not always facing the same direction, and depending upon the space available on a tablet, sometimes even the Sumerians were known to move symbols to make space work for them. But in this case it's simply a choice by the authors - we see the symbol upside-down normally, but here they have it facing the sky, in honor, perhaps, of their worship of her - it's clearly the Omega shape that is used on a great many depictions of Ninhursag. It is a depiction of the flowing tresses of hair that she is known for. And said to be the color of Emher, which is blond colored wheat familiar to the Middle East people. Yes, this goddess from the sky, in the early days of the sky gods, was blonde. (You know, the first thought that came to my mind was - not all blondes are dumb.)

The sixth and last symbol is sukud, defined as "to be skillful, elaborate and clever".

Putting this together we have:
" The Person of Nagar, good and sweet; our lioness; Ninhursag, skillful and clever, Ninhursag!"

Which seems, to my southern ears to sound much like a very clear statement. I'm joking, but some of the other suggested "translations" make no sense at all.

We have a statement of an appreciation for the Earth Mother, important enough to be the mother of the sky gods themselves, but capable of being a lioness when it comes to protecting her flocks, living a peaceful existence, and having her charge of animals do the same, while clearing the minds of the locals through meditation on their place in life and the universe.

What if the only reason mankind was placed on Earth in the first place was to take care of the animals? What if we had just that one job? And screwed it up?

I hope you enjoyed reading about this before anyone else. I'm going to place this in a context of Yoga meditation, since there is quite a bit more to the story and most of it interesting. My friend and I have a bet that I can have this published in an e-book within 7 days. A plate of ribs (pork of course) is riding on it, so you know what I will be concentrating on this week. Starting on Thursday that is.

Michel Leclerc

5th December 2023, 21:35

Jim_Duyer

5th December 2023, 21:55

Thank you Jim. Deciphering the Indus script. What a feat that would be! And yes, it might be the same as the Easter Island script (as has been pointed out many times) – which is of extreme significance.

I hope you can show us how you did it and what are the results. You do understand my fascination, curiosity ad expectancy.

You refer to “the image below”. Will you publish that on PA? I can’t find an image.

May I request that you show the pictogram/ideogram/symbol – assorted with your translation? Then maybe your above explanation will become clearer.

(May I add that I am rather puzzled by a statement such as this one: “In addition to her role as birth mother to the sky gods she was also referred to as the Mother of Earth or Earth Mother.” This is English. What difference in the original are you referring to when you use these two syntagms "Mother of Earth” and “Earth Mother” as if they were not equivalent, which in English they are?)

(Just a little remark: that yoga dates back to at the latest the Indus civilisation has been stated by quite a number of people – and they often adduce MohenjoDaro/Harappan material to prove it. Am I not getting your point?)

Thanks for your comment!
I have not tried the Rapa nui writings yet but they do seem awfully similar to me.

I hope you can show us how you did it and what are the results. You do understand my fascination, curiosity ad expectancy. I will send this to you in a PM. My past experience is that when I provide my work results it tends to bore most of the people. I will need to create that image so give me a day.

[You refer to “the image below”. Will you publish that on PA? I can’t find an image.]
I put the link to the image on wakipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Shiva_Pashupati.jpg
For a period of time, and perhaps this is due to the re-indexing of this site, I found I was unable to
add any images to my gallery, so I have been using links when possible.

[May I request that you show the pictogram/ideogram/symbol – assorted with your translation? Then maybe your above explanation will become clearer.]Yes, I will PM them to you if I can figure out how to do that.

[(May I add that I am rather puzzled by a statement such as this one: “In addition to her role as birth mother to the sky gods she was also referred to as the Mother of Earth or Earth Mother.” This is English. What difference in the original are you referring to when you use these two syntagms "Mother of Earth” and “Earth Mother” as if they were not equivalent, which in English they are?)] Well, nothing important - I was just showing that the Sumerians referred to her as the Mother of Earth, but for some reason when it got to the English language we seem to understand Earth Mother as being the correct form. They are identical.

[(Just a little remark: that yoga dates back to at the latest the Indus civilisation has been stated by quite a number of people – and they often adduce MohenjoDaro/Harappan material to prove it. Am I not getting your point?) ] I have found several comments that have been taken to be authority (by whom?) where the author states that the position on the image (of my posted link) could not be Yogic in nature because they did not have Yoga that early. Yes, I am as puzzled as you, but I have indeed found it in published papers. I agree, easy to understand that it is that old.

I grabbed another image, just to be sure that I have my head screwed on straight. It's from the Met. collection, and it shows what they "say" is a unicorn on it, with writing. It turns out the unicorn is simply the fancy extension of one symbol, and it's a cow. It has a double-meaning, which was popular with the Sumerians and apparently to the Mohenjo-Daro group as well. It says "An arrogant stranger-outsider, when processing skin from fatten cows to satisfaction, he tears it into pieces the size of rice grains." A comment on foreign abilities perhaps. But it can also be read as: "In our land (or country), to process the skins of fattened cows to satisfaction, takes an official decree or a royal decree or an executive decision." Which might be a comment on government, which is always popular.

So yes, took me two hours or less and it is a clear message derived from given symbols, which is one of the main requisites of perfecting a translation that seems correct on the face.

Jim_Duyer

5th December 2023, 22:01

Michel Leclerc - one of the things that has always stuck with me in the Pacific region, besides the writing on Easter Island, is that in the Carolina Islands group the natives had a form of written language (which we never hear much about but was reported in the 1800s) and it includes their word for 20 million and another word that is even higher.
20 million what? fish? Why would they need to count that high?

Jim_Duyer

5th December 2023, 22:32

Ladies and Gentlemen: On the wakipedia page, here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indus_script
there is an article on this writing. About half-way down the page there is a an image, with this link:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Longest_Indus_script_inscription_(colour).jpg

Why do they still have that up, as if it is definitive? The article that was peer-reviewed has been removed!
Because in the article they provide the assay of the copper used to make these plates. And the one in the
image in the link above, shows zero percentage of arsenic. Non-arsenical copper is NOT old copper. In either the natural state or by addition in order to harden it, the ancients always had between 1.5 and 3.5 percent arsenic in the mix. So most of the copper plates and especially the one in the image on wakipedia, are probably fakes. I don't think that the authors knew because they "came from private collections", but once they did the chemical tests they knew what they were dealing with. They may have withdrawn the article from publication themselves, if nobody else did it.
And yet wakipedia still clouds the waters by offering this for an example.

Jim_Duyer

6th December 2023, 00:16

I'm providing the second example instead of sending the first one to you in a PM. I think it's fair that all of PA gets to see this evidence. And in this example we have the multiple meanings and an example of compound signs or symbols - both of which are evidence that their teachers were very probably Sumerians, as this is a signature of their work in many other examples we have today.

Here is the image that contains all of the work:
https://paleoaliens.com/SOLUTION.jpg

A compound sign is simply two signs placed together - but it's more complicated that one symbol. It was used for emphasis, when it is repeated, for conciseness, when space on the tablet line was at a premium, and frankly to show off their skills I imagine. Scribes can (do) have inflated egos as well. Plus, using this form of double meaning is an excellent way to learn how to hide secret messages inside of ordinary text - one meaning on top for the bosses, the rulers and the public, with another meaning in the same symbols for the wake ones.

Wakipedia says that this is a "Unicorn" seal with Indus inscription, and a modern impression; Met Museum, and the image is on this page:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Stamp_seal_and_modern_impression-_unicorn_and_incense_burner_(%3F)_MET_DP23101_(cropped).jpg

Unicorn? I think not. Unless, that is, you normally place saddles or blanket designs on your unicorns, as you can see from the image. (I don't put saddles on my unicorns).

No, this is a simple calf or cow image. What might look like (to some) a unicorn's horn is where the author blended the symbol into the image. Did he do this to throw off those who were observing him? Probably. And also to show the Sumerians how adept he was at his work. It's actually a very good example of work, so he was obviously skilled at his craft.

I've numbered my evidence with 1 through 4/5, with the 4/5 indicating that you can take it as one of two symbols, and in this case he wants us to take both - and arrive at the dual meanings.

The first symbol is either MA, which looks like the P from the original, or it could be a compound of two signs - bar and lugud2 (lagab has this same sign). Bar means "outsider, stranger, other" but interestingly it also can mean "liver, shoulder, a cut of meat" as well as "spirit, mind, to extend" . We will soon see how all of these meanings can and should be applied.

Ma, the option for number one, means "land, country, earth" etc.
Don't worry, I will put all of these in perspective shortly.

The second symbol is Hi, meaning "to process skin or wool" and it is a compound sign in that it has that same symbol inside of the outer one. A repeated sign might mean emphasis, such as fire, twice, meaning a great big conflagration. But in this case the author wants us to use the same sign to indicate dug3, which is identical in shape and design. So we have a compound of Hi and dug3.
And dug3 means "to be good, to satisfy, to be ideal".

The third symbol is ab on the outer design, meaning "cow" with sze2 being the tree shaped design inside of this. Now some might claim that this is not the perfect triangular point that the author drew, but it is the same overall shape and is acceptable as a preferred optional way of drawing this. Also remember that other cultures drew Sumerian symbols slightly differently. However, if one would insist on using one that resembles the triangle, we could have Gada, which is identical, and means "flax, linen, fabric" and would fit equally as well in our overall meaning. I believe it is ab, a much older symbol and one that matches the image of the cow in the drawing itself, but your mileage may vary.

Inside of this ab is sze, or the alternate word that uses the same sign, niga, meaning : "to be fattened".

Now, the 4/5 alternate. Four could be a compound of gisz or isz, meaning "mountain" with szu2 representing the curved sign that the author fitted into the head of the cow. And we know that this is incorrect, since cows don't have a single horn curved to the front. The szu2 means "to cover, to envelope, to blanket".

OR, it could simply be one sign, tar, which means "to cut; to cut down; to untie, loosen; to scatter, disperse; to decide, decree; to cut, tear apart" and this is useful to the author as we shall see.

Now, the alternate meanings that the author provides are:

A stranger or outsider, in order to satisfy (or be ideal, good), processes the skin of a fattened cow by tearing it apart into pieces the size of a wheat grain. Or, A stranger satisfies himself by processing the skin of a fattened cow by cutting it into small pieces, much like covering a mountain with a blanket - both impossible and useless tasks in their results.

When processing skins for use, one would normally attempt to keep as much of the total in one piece as possible, which adds to its value. So this indicates that strangers to their lands simply don't have that skill or knowledge. But notice that the word stranger also contains the meanings of "liver, shoulder, a cut of meat" as well as "spirit, mind, to extend" . Perhaps indicating that strangers or outsiders were simply pieces of meat, with spirit or an extended mind. Which would be a word play worthy of an intelligent craftsmen of words such as this author.

And we have the additional meaning of:
In our land (or country), in order to process a skin of a cow to satisfaction, it takes a decision, or decree - much like the decision made by a council of hide-preparation supervisors, or the decree of a ruler or king, just to get it done. Which is an additional slur, this time on the government.

So, to denigrate strangers or outsiders, and government supervisors or the rulers at one stroke, would certainly tickle the scribes back in Sumeria, and the use of such optional meanings from the same drawing is nothing short of an exhibition of the author's skill.

Please let me know if you have any questions or suggestions- and please recall that all of the symbols that I mention can be found on the Univ. of Pennsylvania web site, whose link I have supplied in a prior topic.

shaberon

6th December 2023, 08:04

Interesting.

Before going into any specific items here, I have a few things on the environment of it.

It may change soon, but, for the time being, one can say IVC (Indus Valley Culture).

The main difference is that the largest and oldest site is in Haryana, India. Mohenjo Daro is an offshoot.

Secondly it is completely unclear whether IVC is or is not a Vedic or Sanskrit culture.

And so I am not coming into this one way or the other. I don't know if Sanskrit was the language. What we can be sure of is that "Late" IVC overlaps in time and space with Vedic cultures.

"Early" IVC is older than most of the known civilizations that "invented" writing.

In the sense there was a "Vedic Culture", then, originally, at least, it should be understood as resistant to two things--wheat and writing. They strongly felt that writing was a form of cheating, and Vedas were transmitted by a set of human tape recorders.

The IVC seals are found simultaneously far afield (Elam, ca. 2,300 B. C. E.) as they are in India. They seem to start being used in fairly small amounts, perhaps shortly after they are found in Sumeria, until the number increases, and then it stops suddenly around 1,800 B. C. E.

This is what I would call a significant vein of writing:

When, by the way, was the first historical evidence of war? Of an armed conflict that involved a dozen people or more slaughtering each other? Neanderthals? Nope - absolutely no evidence of that. Cro-Magnons? Nope. No evidence of that either - although some die-hard archaeologists attempt to show us one in Germany, involving a few dozen Cro-Magnon type tribal people - until the biologists pointed out that they died from disease, and had no obvious wounds. No, the first evidence of war is after the rise of the Sumerians and near to their fall to the Akkadians. The Semitic groups appear to have brought War to mankind (or their handlers more likely).

Because, not only that, most of the course of war is traceable from there to here.

I don't know if that means it is exclusive.

A lot of the IVC seals study is based around the likelihood of them being based on workers, guilds, and goods.

However it begs the question:

When I use Sumerian proto-symbols to translate the text, and the Sumerian dictionary to define it, we can not, and should not, assume that the Indus Valley Civilization did not have their own underlying language that they used for these symbols. In fact we must assume that they did.

There is no consensus that the symbols are a written script.

They may not be letters or words.

If words, they may or may not be Sanskrit, and so here:

I can translate the symbols but I do not understand nor am I familiar with, whatever words in whatever language that they spoke when shown those same symbols. But actually it doesn't really matter - as long as we can pry meaning out of them, and then translate that transliteration into English, we can understand clearly what they wished to tell us.

In other words, I don't need to understand the spoken language of the natives - just their clear intentions in their choice of symbols. This acts as a sort of (notice I say sort of as in not really) what we might call a Rosetta Stone system of translating. So, no magic involved, no 'Sitchin-like' channeling - just language, and a familiarity with the proto forms involved.

is where, if so, it would make a lot of sense to me very quickly.

Such as here you would be justified by the term "new age":

Here's another lie laid to rest. How many of you practice Yoga in one style or another? Were you not told that this arose with the Vedic texts, prior to the formal formation of the Hindu religion, and dating to about 1200 BC? That's what the scholars tell us in their papers. But here we have a Yogic pose, clearly, from Mohenjo-Daro territory, dating to at the very least 2500 BC, again according to our scholars. But wait! The proto form of Sumerian, clearly visible here, ceased to be used after 3100 BC! So yes, this writing that I worked on takes Yoga in its earliest form back to 3100 BC, if not earlier. And Mohenjo-Daro as well, obviously.

Yoga meditation can thus be safely dated to have its origins as early as 5000 years ago, if not earlier. And to have originally been associated with a peaceful, mother goddess type of understanding.

Yoga rather specifically means post-Vedic.

And non-Vedic.

A seated pose does not necessarily indicate this.

Vedas tell one how to do rites, pray, and sing.

One is generally told that Rg Veda is first and oldest, and that Atharva Veda is youngest (ca. 1,000 B. C. E.).

That means there was a period of about a thousand years that the material that is in the Vedas was "composed" by Sages.

The end of this age witnesses the Sages being chased away by wars and disasters and the material is "finalized" in its current written form that no one can change. An advanced person may be considered a "little one" or a "younger" in this age when the scriptures have, so to speak, become "fixed".

Well, when this happens, there are at least three deviations. The major one is Caste. This is not in the Vedas and contradicts them. Yoga is quite boldly introduced by Yajnawalkya ca. 700 B. C. E., which is not Vedic, although it is in general agreement. Then the events of the Mahabharata cause an outright Dark Age. This probably is a historic event, except not in remote antiquity, probably around 1,000-900 B. C. E. and mishmashed with other stories and generally designed as Epic Literature. If you think of it as a saga it is amazing. It is not a historical document. The Vedas are scripture so they *are* historically reliable.

The main thing they are about is war and it has been erased from Indian memory.

I wish I was making that up.

Until the 2,000s Indians did not know the basic information that is in their own oldest scriptures in the world.

It is about as new to them as to anyone seeing this post for the first time.

Allright. So what happened to IVC is the Meghalayan Age (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meghalayan#:~:text=The%20Meghalayan%20begins%204%2C200%20years,Meghalayan%20to%202190%2D1990%20BCE.) starting around 2,200 B. C. E., a series of major droughts that appear to have decimated every major civilization in the world.

In the Rg Veda there is no Flood Myth.

The significant enemy is Drought.

The main hero being Indra as lord of Storms and Rain, if we look over to Sumeria and Canaan, we find Adad or Hadad, the lord of Ekron, or Baal Zebul, the storm or rain deity, which Baal Yhwh then annihilates with drought.

The Rg Veda has absolutely nothing to do with and practically nothing in common with the Torah or Bible.

Moreover, it doesn't really teach anything. It is styled as if Indra was already important to you. It does not look like the material "starts" anything, but, starts recording some of it a few generations after the founder.

Shiva is non-Vedic or is a later name used by yogis, same with Pasupati.

What if the only reason mankind was placed on Earth in the first place was to take care of the animals? What if we had just that one job? And screwed it up?

That is similar to the Pasupati view.

Part of what Yajnwalkya does is explain animals symbolicly, as if in response to a belief you were supposed to kill something.

You don't kill a pig, you throw some flour in the fire.

What is intriguing about IVC is that it is true that around the same time, there were also stoneworks in Anatolia.

Here is a type of scene-setting from the fossil records.

Brewing (https://beer-studies.com/en/world-history/Birth-of-brewing/Combined-fermented_beverages/Indian-Beer-brewing-bassin) is continuous from Mergarh.

That is a good agricultural study, and, from this, one can follow the spread of wheat, barley, lentils, and peas, from Anatolia to Balochistan:

https://beer-studies.com/images_histo_globale/Diffusion_of_wheat_%28Triticum%20sp.%29_and_barley_%28Hordeum%20vulgare%29_throughout_Eurasia_%28Ste vens%20%26%20al.%202016%29.jpg

According to the Brewers:

The middle Ganges valley witnessed the domestication of Indian rice (Oriza sativa, subsp. indica), yellow foxtail (Setaria pumila), amaranth (Macrotyloma uniflorum, kulthi bean or horsegram), and various cucurbits between 6000 and 3000 BC.

Between 5500 BC and 2000 BC, the domestication of starchy plants in India involved several centres and relatively complex exchanges/borrowings/adaptations (see map below) underpinned by population migrations. Archaeobotanists and linguists have tried to superimpose their respective protohistories to understand the setting up of very distinctive regional cultures (Fuller 2003).

https://beer-studies.com/images_histo_globale/Bassin-Brassicole-Asie-sud-Inde-Tibet-Afganistan-EN.png

That makes it fairly obvious that wheat was present for the height of IVC, while a rice-based Vedic culture was Gangetic.

The missing stories from the Vedas seem to say that some western kings joined their cause, others were the enemies.

Or, wheat probably did not spread across India until after the events that are in Rg Veda.

Concerning Gangetic Rice:

A more recent population genomic study indicates that japonica was domesticated first, and that indica rice arose when japonica arrived in India about ~4,500 years ago and hybridized with an undomesticated proto-indica or wild O. nivara.

It then spread to Harappan and Susa.

It is thought to have entered Nepal ca. 3,000 B. C. E..

I found a minor amount about humans of the IVC sites. For Haryana, in its first genetic study:

The DNA of a single male skeleton (classified as 'I4411') shows affinity with present-day subaltern South Indian, Tamil tribal populations, most notably the Irula people.

Next, at 2500 B. C.E.:

The study of DNA samples of the skeletons found in Rakhigarhi, an Indus Valley Civilisation site in Haryana, has found no traces of the R1a1 gene or Central Asian ‘steppe’ genes, loosely termed as the ‘Aryan gene’.

From a partially-Iranic female:

The analysis by Reich and colleagues also shows that the Iranian-related lineage present in the Indus Valley people split from the natives of Zagros Mountains in Iran before 8000 BCE. This is before crop farming began there around 7000–6000 BCE.

This suggests that the descendants of the world’s first farmers who lived in the Fertile Crescent have had no roles in introducing farming to South Asia.

In Science:

...she lived sometime between 2800 and 2300 B.C.E. Her genome closely matched DNA from 11 other individuals who had been found at sites in Iran and Turkmenistan.

... the Iranian-related DNA in both the Indus individuals and modern Indians actually predates the rise of agriculture in Iran by some 2000 years. In other words, that Iranian-related DNA came from interbreeding with 12,000-year-old hunter-gatherers, not more recent farmers, Reich explains.

These can plausibly be called Turanians.

After this--i. e., from about 2,000 B. C. E.--then, the European-mixed Aryan genetics come mixing back in to India. From the available pool of 523 individuals prior to then, it appears that Balochistan was fairly localized and did not externalize. Harappans are a mixture of Turanic Iranians and South Indians.

From a study on Rakigarhian I6113, the "pure Iranian":

The Beit Cave individual
dates to 10,000 BCE, definitively before the advent of farming
anywhere in Iran.

You could probably say that IVC were Turanic Dravidians, considering this has another branch, Turanic Ethiopians.

"Arya" is not a different gene pool, but, a culture.

Comparatively, the seals are found in the layers of:

...some symbols from potter's marks and graffiti belonging to the earlier Ravi phase from c. 3500–2800 BCE.

...pottery inscriptions and clay impressions of inscribed Harappan seals dating to around c. 2800–2600 BCE

c. 2600–1900 BCE, strings of Indus signs are commonly found

Both seals and potsherds bearing Indus script text, dated c. 2200–1600 BCE, have been found at sites associated with the Daimabad culture of the Late Harappan period, in present-day Maharashtra.

...researchers now generally agree that the Indus script is not closely related to any other writing systems of the second and third millennia BCE, although some convergence or diffusion with Proto-Elamite conceivably may be found.

About 35 Proto-Elamite signs may possibly be comparable to Indus signs.

Susa appears in the very earliest Sumerian records: for example, it is described as one of the places obedient to Inanna, patron deity of Uruk, in Enmerkar and the Lord of Aratta.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a9/Indus_carnelian_beads_with_white_design_imported_to_Susa_in_2600-1700_BCE_LOUVRE_Sb_13099.jpg/320px-Indus_carnelian_beads_with_white_design_imported_to_Susa_in_2600-1700_BCE_LOUVRE_Sb_13099.jpg

Indian carnelian beads with white design, etched in white with an alkali through a heat process, imported to Susa in 2600–1700 BC. Found in the tell of the Susa acropolis. Louvre Museum, reference Sb 17751. These beads are identical with beads found in the Indus Civilization site of Dholavira [Gujarat].

The next significant way that the Veda is not like the Bible is because it does not really use a chain of descent from Adam.

In fact prior to its founders it says humanity went back "for ages and ages".

Its origin, Ayodhya (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ayodhya_(Ramayana)), is not modern Ayodhya, it may not be an actual place, may be a symbol, such as, evidently from Atharva Veda, a yogic symbol of the human body. Grammatically, ayodhya is an adjective, similar to Invincible.

aṣṭācakrā navadvārā devānāṃ pūrayodhyā
tasyāṃ hiraṇyayaḥkośaḥ svargo jyotiṣāvṛtaḥ

Eight-wheeled, nine-doored, is the impregnable stronghold of the gods;
in that is a golden vessel, heaven-going (swarga), covered with light

—Atharvaveda 10.2.31 —Translation by William Dwight Whitney

It does not quite use Gemstones either. It has a phrase that could refer to seven of them, "Sapta Ratna", but does not explain this. And someone has a previous translation effort based in Sapta Ratna and Chakravartin (http://bharatkalyan97.blogspot.com/2016/09/functions-of-atharva-veda-skambha-and.html) to data mine Indus Script through Atharva Veda; this is a corresponding piece later from Amaravati:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/75/Indian_relief_from_Amaravati%2C_Guntur._Preserved_in_Guimet_Museum.jpg/640px-Indian_relief_from_Amaravati%2C_Guntur._Preserved_in_Guimet_Museum.jpg

In other words perhaps unaware, he has used a Buddhist symbol as if it had to do with the intricacies of this Vedic mystery, which it does.

Part of that is the suggestion they are "written backwards". The Atharva Veda is said to be compiled last, however it contains a more primitive Sanskrit than the Rg Veda in some areas. And if we look at some important Vedic Kings, they are not a physical descent from Adam, but, they are a mental descent from Atharvan. In other words, Atharvan is a name of divine mind/inspiration for the Sages, which, in human terms, is not a job you can get, it is the qualifier if you "get" the Vedic material by realization of the state of Atharvan. In turn, Yoga and Ayurveda are practices derived out of Atharva Veda.

It is Vedic, but it is also yogic, in a sense that during a Dark Age, if a Priest Caste was going to conceal the meaning, then you might be better off with an "unorthodox" or yoga approach.

Another thing that is not Vedic is Blue. So far it seems the first known use of "blue" is Egyptian.

IVC was very unlike Egypt who constrained thousands of laborers to build massive monuments. IVC sites do not have temples or anything that resembles a central administration complex.

The Vedas may be responding to what we might call some Late IVC clans, but, as to whether or not that has anything to do with the design of the seals is not known.

Jim_Duyer

6th December 2023, 14:27

I have not nearly spent the amount of time absorbing your comment that it deserves, and which I appreciate. It's very interesting and deep, and I will be tossing it back and forth, mentally, this afternoon. As I mentioned previously, I know very little about the Yoga-Vedic etc., but I am fascinated by what I have seen so far. To be honest, my previous impression on observing people practicing Yoga is that they were looking for some way to place body parts in unusual or awkward positions. Kind of like a boxer wondering what a Sensei is teaching in Karate - ignorance rules the day.

I have learned a lot from your comment. It's obvious that you know that field, and I agree with your ideas. My own former take on the Vedas is that, like the original Hebrew of the Torah - without vowels, you can pretty much get it to say whatever you wish to see. No offense meant, and certainly not all translators nor all texts. But since then I have found kernals of information that match other research. I posted a thread on a cave painting in Spain from 7000 years ago or so that depicted Orion and the area to the north of it. To my surprise, I found the same descriptions, with added details, in research papers on the Veda writings concerning astronomy.

I have seen the corpus of symbols from the Indus Script. My field is not the evolution of languages but their symbols, and to me the symbols that apparently show a man or woman, posing in different positions, is simply their take and the function of their symbols of communication. For example, 21 words in Sumerian for woman - of different types of labor or social status, each with its own symbol - the Mohejo-Daro people chose instead to use 21 different poses, that may very well produce the same meanings as a result.

As such, i don't believe that it will be that big a chore to crack the entire corpus of symbols. We see the same thing in the earliest Sumerian - one symbol for land, and a mark to the right or left side of same indicating to the east, to the west, etc. Not all of those compass indicators have been recognized by our experts - some are my take on them, but they do fit in quite nicely and make sense in the context of the tablets.

Actually my reason for looking at the Indus Script was a comment here on PA, and my goal is to understand enough so that I might give the Easter Island scripts a go. In my spare time, whatever that is.

I like your ideas of the Vedas in relation to some late IVC clans. At the very minimum they carried down some of the ideas in relation to mother goddess. What struck me about the Vedas is their astronomy. I've read three of the early books on it in the last few days, and I can definitely connect the Vedic astronomy (not astrology) with similar concepts from Mesopotamia, at an earlier date, as well as to the cave painting I mentioned .
Which way this knowledge flowed is a good question.

My take on the Mohenjo-Daro and IVC overall is that, our scholars wish to down-play their accomplishments, as usual. We can hardly date them at 2500 when the symbols I translated ceased to be used after 3100 BC. Some scholars seem to date them much earlier, and I have found proto Sumerian to have been used in Gobekli Tepe, among other sites, so probably both are much older than we have been led to believe.

Jim_Duyer

7th December 2023, 01:25

I'm back at work. I noted this part: [[...researchers now generally agree that the Indus script is not closely related to any other writing systems of the second and third millennia BCE, although some convergence or diffusion with Proto-Elamite conceivably may be found.

About 35 Proto-Elamite signs may possibly be comparable to Indus signs.]]

So, let's talk about the Elamite peoples. Older than the Akkadians, Amorites, Assyrians, Babylonians, and Hebrews, and of course the Hittites. Not older than Sumerians, Hurrians, and the Hatti, the fore-runners of the Hittites.

The Elamites had their own writing system, which scholars are having a difficult time understanding. I've seen the symbols, and many are based on the proto-Sumerian. So that makes sense - they formulated theirs after observing Sumerian, then the Harrapan people copied some from the Elamites and some from the Sumerians. Lots of borrowings going on back then. From what I have seen of them, and the fact that it is very obvious that the underlying language for transliteration was Elamite, I would not wish to tackle them myself. Lots of work for very little new information, in my opinion.

When you have seven symbols above an image of a cow. And each symbol translates cleanly, and they fit together inside of a theme, and this theme matches the images associated with it, then I would consider that a successful translation. In two days I did two of these, as I posted, so the first was not a fluke. It takes me about two or three hours for each tablet, but that's because I check my work three times, then pause, then try to hit it from another angle and see if I may have missed something, and then clean it up. I know that there are multiple layers of meanings to be gleaned from each one, and I try to obtain as much of the intent as possible. Some things will no doubt escape me - there are colloquial characteristics that are not evident to me from previous work. That's why I am hoping that others will carry this much further than I do - and I will do what I can to assist in that endeavor.

On these two examples I added nothing, changed nothing, deleted nothing, and did not go outside of the bounds of standard scholarly published and peer-reviewed sources. I did not need to.
I can, and will of course, do this again. And then I will pick up the Rappa Nui this week and have a go at it as well.
Actually I am more excited about the Eastern Island examples for the puzzle pieces that they might provide.

If you know those who do what I do, such as Englund, they have perfected transliterations and then translations that were based on much less input than I used, and came up with several ???? indications, where they were just not sure.
One of his tablets, in fact, I was able to complete, as to the misunderstood symbols, and it provided some very interesting information about their mythical land called Kur.

I am not, and probably will never be, his equal. Nor Piotr Steinkeller, whom I feel is one of the best. But I feel that I can hold my own with them in many situations relating solely to proto-Sumerian. I am not as skilled with classical cuneiform, although I have done a lot of work in it. I have about two hundred translated tablets that I chose from the UCLA library of tablets simply because they had never been tackled previously. Not enough hands to handle all of them, unfortunately.

So from my experience, and what I have seen peer-reviewed by our scholars, I would feel confident in publishing my finds in the Indus Script. In fact, that's what I will be doing next week.

I won't report on the lineage of the artists who performed the work, nor on the evolution of the most ancient styles to the more modern. But I will report on what I do best - transliterations and translations of symbols into thoughts and phrases that are comprehensible and make common sense.

I will catch quite a bit of heat. Truthfully, my experience in examining their work tells me that they begin with a certain premise. As in, this is possible, that is not possible. I know, hardly scientific. But if it speaks of, for example, One principal god worshiped by one group of scribes in one city-state, with absolutely no others considered, they would call that improbable or impossible, and refuse to go further. I am not built that way. I go with what the authors say - even if fantastical, it must have been considered of some importance to them or they would not have wasted their time carving clay in the desert heat. For example, in this second artifact above, it mentions a Mother Goddess, which might run contrary to the popularly held opinions of most scholars in Harrapan culture at that period. I do not care.
My task is to report it, to lay it on the table for discussion and dissection, and allow it to breath life until a better suggestion comes along.

I believe that your statements above are much in agreement with my own system, and I am grateful for your input.

My information is that wheat was one of the first domestically cultivated plants, and first cultivated somewhere near modern Georgia, and the area north and east of the Black Sea, at about 7000 to 8000 BC. Correct?

So why are there carvings on antlers, from the area of northern Russia, dated about 26,000 BC by teams of Russian archaeologists, and these markings I can translate, and they speak of tips for growing plants - with one of them being that plants placed in the soil during the full moon will germinate with more success? And when I contact botanists, they agree that this has been proven in modern studies. Were these not cultivated plants?

So perhaps you can see why I don't constrain my results to some theme that others have woven for us. I can only promise that I will do my best, I will not cheat, and I will share what I find here. Nothing more can I do, but nothing less as well.

Thanks for the information on Beer - that was very important to the Sumerian culture. Some say they invented the process of making crude beer - and based on the many early terms that they have for it I find some agreement with that idea. But it was important later - at nearly the end of their civilization - rather than earlier on. Puzzling.
Perhaps this technology was imported from near India?

We see so many stories from the Middle East, from all cultures, about the sky gods liking Earth women and taking of them as they pleased. And then we learn of the importance that they placed, early on, on beer making.

Doesn't this sound like the typical shore leave activities of a group of space sailors? As soon as they land on Earth, after a long journey through the galaxy, the first thing they do is look for women and teach the natives how to make beer for them? Just a thought.

In closing I would like to leave you with one consideration. From mentions in astronomy related texts from the Vedic publications, I have found the eight-sided star or eight compartments with one specific god in the center of the circle of eight divisions. The god changes from time to time, but the eight does not. I find this same theme in the Sumerian literature, but with one exception. After much work (believe me) I have discovered what this means. It's not actually eight. It's two groups of four. One designates a slice of space where Enlil, Ninlil, Inanna, and their associates came from originally, and the other where Enlil, Ninhursag, and their group came from, as well as supposedly being the same slice of space that humanity was imported from. The Vedic texts call this area the birthplace of comets. I agree.

And it is associated with the idea of the birth of stars in both the Hindu texts and the Sumerian texts, and this I agree with as well. So the Earth Mother as it relates to the birthplace of the sky gods as well as planets finds agreement from Tibet to Spain, and very early on. At some point in the deep past, humanity joined together, perhaps in suffering, but they joined. And while joined they shared messages relating to their dilemma, and perhaps shared ways to deal with it. The two translations I have done to date tell me that the Indus peoples were just as determined to learn ways in which to perfect obfuscation of ideas to the end of keeping certain conclusions or plans away from the eyes of these so-called "sky-gods". And the end result, that it deteriorated into religion or meditative meetings, tells us that humanity lost. That we may need to once again join together, via hidden messaging, to prepare ourselves for what will come.

Just my twelve colones (two cents).

shaberon

7th December 2023, 11:59

My information is that wheat was one of the first domestically cultivated plants, and first cultivated somewhere near modern Georgia, and the area north and east of the Black Sea, at about 7000 to 8000 BC. Correct?

So why are there carvings on antlers, from the area of northern Russia, dated about 26,000 BC by teams of Russian archaeologists, and these markings I can translate, and they speak of tips for growing plants - with one of them being that plants placed in the soil during the full moon will germinate with more success? And when I contact botanists, they agree that this has been proven in modern studies. Were these not cultivated plants?

It could be but--what plants?

The tundra was considered "treeless".

I am guessing you are referring to what I think of as One Great Year ago. I don't think we have a very old knowledge about precession of the equinoxes. But at about the age of one whole cycle, there is Malta Buret (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mal%27ta%E2%80%93Buret%27_culture) culture, somewhat inconvenient because they are:

...genetically "intermediate between modern western Eurasians and Native Americans, but distant from east Asians", and partial genetic ancestors of Siberians, American Indians, and Bronze Age Yamnaya and Botai people of the Eurasian steppe. In particular, modern-day Native Americans, Kets, Mansi, and Selkup have been found to harbour a significant amount of ancestry related to MA-1.

It has pictograms, venuses, tools, stonework, not replicated to this degree anywhere for quite some time.

Strangely, "Malta Boy" MA-1 has Mitochondrial Haplogroup Basal U. However, you can find sub-clades such as U5 in Bosnia and other European areas in remains of twice the age! Some of them are thought to be about 45,000 years old, but prove their families must be distant descendants of Basal U, which, so far, has only this single specimen in the whole world.

Also, MA-1 is the only known example of basal Y-DNA R.

At the time, it was the oldest complete genome.

A 2016 genomic study shows that the Mal'ta people have no genetic connections to the Dolní Věstonice people from the Gravettian culture.

Large article concerning the venuses on Don's Maps (https://donsmaps.com/malta.html).

The site is easy to remember because in his youth it was dug by that famous Defense Minister, Sergei Shoigu.

Ancestral to both the "Scythians" and Native Americans. That was not supposed to happen in the minds of many.

Now to throw in ancestry of the Horse. Malta Buret is Ice Age, and unfortunately, one of the worst survival rates was that of the Horse. Once it ends, there were just a few pockets of horse populations. They were first domesticated by the Botai mentioned above, as a milking animal, around 5,000 B. C. E., and so these were not "bred". As a labor animal, they were selectively bred around 2,200 B. C. E. by *both* the Yamnaya *and* the Arabs.

The modern animals are immediately distinguishable by their floppy mane.

Due to their nature, they spread rapidly, and escaped members "mavericks" "mustangs" etc. either bred into or out-competed the pockets of primitive wild horses.

In India, we cannot be sure that the word for "horse" originally meant "a horse" because it means "go fast".

When the animal is first specifically mentioned, it is said to have thirty-four ribs, which is almost certainly a match for the Arabian.

In distant times, they may have had wild horses, asses, donkeys, and the events in the Rg Veda most likely span the generations from solid-wheeled donkey carts to spoked chariots. From a beaten track to a maintained highway.

Ice and snow are not found until the New Books.

Iron is not found until the other Vedas.

There is no iron or wheat in the Rg Veda.

When you start matching up the events, with the items that are named in it, with archaeology and the fossil dating, it all fits together quite well. It just doesn't wind up being as ancient as Indians want it to be. It almost certainly is a few centuries before and after 2,000 B. C. E.

The oldest actual manuscript is from about our year 1,000.

The final IVC settlements and seals took place around 1,800-1,600 B. C. E. in Gujarat and Maharastra, India.

From a study that Rg Veda was (https://www.academia.edu/7683313/The_Chronology_of_Puranic_Kings_and_Rigvedic_Rishis_in_Comparison_with_the_Phases_of_the_Sindhu_Sara svati_Civilization) dealing with the collapse of part of IVC, its wares can be traced to Kurukshetra 1,400 B. C. E.

I think it is very likely we have evidence that is still standing: Nirmand, Kullu Valley (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nirmand), the "Kashi of the Himalayas".

And there is a very bizarre concatenation of evidence and literature in Himachal Pradesh (https://hpgeneralstudies.com/ancient-history-himachal-pradesh/).

On a genetic basis, if there is such a thing as Native Indians, they would be Australic, having Andaman Islanders as the pure type. In HP, Australics are known as Kols and Mundas.

The second settlers were Mongolians or Kirats.

These are generally thought to comprise the enemy forces in Rg Veda.

This is around what we call the River Beas, which is cognate for Vyasa or the "compiler" of literature. So the current form of the Vedas was compiled by Vyasa, and then another, most likely later, Vyasa, collects the Mahabharata. The impossible irony is that the upper end of Kullu Valley is called Manali and "End of the World".

What becomes physically impossible is that, let us say India imported the Flood Myth, turned around and said Manu landed at Manali to start the human race--it slips the gears.

There was no Manali, the Kullu Valley was not accessible to Indians or Aryas until defeating the Kols or Kirats. We can physically time this to a given era. The Flood Myth is not in the Veda. It cannot possibly work according to the scenario.

Manu in the Rg Veda is symbolic, he arises as at least two of the important lineage heads, it is not about a First Man starting the race.

I would probably deny it is supportable to say that Manu and Ayodhya are "literal" in any way.

Manali totally changes from "World's End" by around 200 B. C. E., because they came up with a shortcut to the portion of the Silk Road at the Gate of China. It is an insanely difficult trek that passes Leh, Ladakh, but I would think once that route is blazed, it would save you two weeks or maybe a month, from the old way, if you were trying to get into India. And since then, there have always been a few well-to-do classes around Nirmand and Manali.

The Flood Myth cannot conceivably be compatible with the Veda, but what it does have is Cosmic Water and Terrestrial Rain, much like the myths of Sumeria, Ugarit, and so on.

When seeing the first significant act of Yhwh was to attack the Rain with Drought, it seemed he had just embodied the enemy forces of the Veda.

I'm not going to try to insist that Sanskrit was the language of all IVC, but, it seems, towards the end, some of them *must* have joined the Aryas--so if not a total, there should be a partial, match.

As to whether the seals do or should reflect this in any way, I have no idea.

In closing I would like to leave you with one consideration. From mentions in astronomy related texts from the Vedic publications, I have found the eight-sided star or eight compartments with one specific god in the center of the circle of eight divisions. The god changes from time to time, but the eight does not. I find this same theme in the Sumerian literature, but with one exception. After much work (believe me) I have discovered what this means. It's not actually eight. It's two groups of four. One designates a slice of space where Enlil, Ninlil, Inanna, and their associates came from originally, and the other where Enlil, Ninhursag, and their group came from, as well as supposedly being the same slice of space that humanity was imported from. The Vedic texts call this area the birthplace of comets. I agree.

Indian astronomical texts were composed in the range around 200-500.

Usually a "comet" would signify Ketu, the Dragon's Tail, or Moon's South Node. I am not familiar with the phrase out of the blue. Although I am not a linguist, I have learned it is considered mandatory to cite sources and versions. This is an example where the Chinese have made a horrible mistake. Around 200, they received an Indian astronomical text, along with a story based on Disciple Ananda (Sardulakarna Vadana). The brief story is also part of the much longer and later (ca. 700) Shurangama Sutra, and the Chinese want to use their mistake to prove they had the Shurangama Sutra by 200. It is just a brief narrative, and, an early, basic astronomy work, which is mostly math.

Now, as for the design, just by scrolling back up, one finds the Eight-Spoked Wheel of Dharma, being traced through the Vedas, theoretically back to IVC. We can be pretty sure the "real" spoked wheel was an invention that came out *during* the events in the Veda.

My response follows from Atharva Veda, which, most likely, represents the entire art of Vedic composition, from the times of the forefathers, until the final compilation.

It has Germ Theory but it also has Ayurveda. The important thing about Ayurveda is the Life Winds. And those could follow a similar pattern, although it is usually described as Five Upper and Five Lower.

However, following the shape of the spoked wheel, then, in our school at least, the representation is like a horizontal cross-section. The center is the Heart, and then there are eight main branches, which would be more like vertical tubes or channels in the body. Depending on focus, you might consider the center as none, one, or two entities, but then the eightfold pattern is something quite common.

The correct way to read a mandala is that it is, in fact, two circles.

You have the cardinal directions and then the intermediates. They could all be the same class, or, they could be different, or even reversed.

It already has a set standard. If you follow this, you never have to "describe" a configuration:

E, S, W, N

SE, SW, NW, NE

In terms of the personifications, my inclination is to say yes, most of the better-crafted archaic myths designate at least two courts of deities, at least broadly separated into a pure immortal, and an incarnation or manifestation.

Here is a way to put that together with the main differences in Indian and Western Astrology. First of all, the pattern works with Nine Planets. There are nine because of including the Moon's Nodes. Here in a 1400s Nepali is Surya--Sun at the center of Eight Planets:

https://har-assets.s3.amazonaws.com/item-images-resized/2000px/7/3/8/73804.jpg

Next you notice a second ring of what look like Surya copies. That is because the Indian Zodiac is really just the Sun during the twelve different months.

The Greeks for example have a web of legends as to who arose as what star sign, and then the Zodiac takes off about a sign such as Sagittarius, whereas in India, the emphasis remains on the Sun during the time of Sagittarius. It ignores the precession and uses the real time that the sun actually is in Sagittarius.

The Twelve Sun Gods in this sense, are the Adityas, that is, the suns of infinite or transcendental space.

Surya is the visible sun.

Yes, this concept is ingrained into probably all the great mythologies.

Jim_Duyer

7th December 2023, 15:14

[[What becomes physically impossible is that, let us say India imported the Flood Myth, turned around and said Manu landed at Manali to start the human race--it slips the gears.

There was no Manali, the Kullu Valley was not accessible to Indians or Aryas until defeating the Kols or Kirats. We can physically time this to a given era. The Flood Myth is not in the Veda. It cannot possibly work according to the scenario.]]

To the Sumerians and their neighbors, the Hittites and Hurrians, the Flood was both much earlier and survivable. It merely caused them to move - with their goods. The Biblical and Babylonian flood myths, on the other hand, were written by the same people - the Elamite-Amorite tribes associated later with one group of Hebrews, the left-hand group. In one of the tablets from 3000 BC it mentions that this group moved down into modern Saudi Arabia, and they knew both early Sumerian, classical Sumerian, and secret writing techniques - these are the ones that I showed wrote the early pieces in Egypt that some were trying to call proto-Canaanite. So your idea of Arabian horses probably fits. And the idea of who may have influenced the Harrapan people when their writing was being perfected might be the same answer.
The area you show with the Ma'lta is not where the antler carvings that I translated were from - much further north in fact. But it is interesting. I have done similar translations from France all the way to Scotland, through Portugal and down into Macedonia. And of course the one example in South Africa.

If we could have the artifacts from Doggerland we would have the bridge over which this knowledge flowed, based on their being examples of it on both sides of where those lands went under the waves.

I freaked out when I first read your post - it reminded me of AI in its inclusiveness. You must have far-reaching research areas.

Jim_Duyer

7th December 2023, 15:53

Well, one thing that I can say for sure it that the Indus Script is not related to Dravidian.
And another is that, contrary to scholarly guesses, the writing is left to right, and not like the marks a plow makes when weaving from left-right to right-left on lines.

It's their modification of early pictographic Sumerian, and was crushed at about the same time as the Sumerians found their own highly-developed civilization slip away from them - and probably for the same reason - the sky gods did not like hidden writing and put them in harms way.

Early examination of the Easter Island script provides the same multiple use of men-women stick figures in various poses, which, I believe, is their way of expressing the 21 words used for woman that the Sumerians employed, as I first suspected. What I really would like to concentrate on, however, is not the writing found on boat oars, although that resembles the Indus Script most clearly, but the scratches made in the caves by the occupants of the island prior to the Rapa Nui peoples. And the markings made on the buried bottom half of the totems - most of which was only recently discovered and which very quickly went dark.

Jim_Duyer

7th December 2023, 17:27

Found it! The Indus Script is a deviation or style adaptation of the markings from Anatolia, near Jerf el Ahmar, dating about the same time as Gobekli Tepe and not too far from that site. The stick figure, the bird wings figures and several others are clearly evident. It might be that the Sumerian pictographs evolved from this, as they were living in that area, and perhaps a branch left for the Harappan region very early on. That would make the most sense.

BTW that was a language isolate, just as the Indus scripts are examples of. So, very early on, migrating people left Anatolia, probably due to the comet strikes that caused floods and led to the burial of Gobekli Tepe, Some became the Sumerians, others migrated into Elam-Afghanistan - Pakistan - Northern India and perhaps beyond, taking some of their language writing skills with them. Later they hook up with the Sumerians who shared that source for writing, and then they were displaced, disappeared, disposed of - much as the Sumerians were.

shaberon

8th December 2023, 11:56

I freaked out when I first read your post - it reminded me of AI in its inclusiveness. You must have far-reaching research areas.

You might call it un-revising numerous conclusions that have been reached by numerous authorities and institutions.

Spanning from the origins of literature, up to--noticing your occasional rips on Wikipedia--we can say that for most of its pages on the Vedas, it uses the German professor Witzel as a main source of commentary. For similar things, we have to use a different website, Dharmapedia Wiki (https://en.dharmapedia.net/wiki/Main_Page), for the articles derived from G. Talageri. This reflects a thirty-year argument between the two exegetes. We have something like this for almost every subject. Witzel denies Indus Script is letters/sounds/words.

The main example in Buddhism is probably Nagarjuna. Once a definite individual, later ghost written, attributed to, individuals re-named as, and conflated to, resulting in some disagreements.

And in fact our current views on history are shaped behind-the-scenes by such things.

The trouble with arguing against "European Rig Veda ideas" is the chance of going to the "Ultra Indian" view, which is producing results that are entirely too vast and unrealistic, such as e. g. India colonized Ireland in 11,000 B. C. E., whereas the more modest approach such as applied by Talageri gives a "happy medium" avoiding either extreme of "too young and stupid" or "too old and wise". We could reasonably say the country of India dropped research on Dwarka, not because it appears to be real, but, because it is not old enough to suit the prejudices of "astrological dating".

Anywhere else in the world, the presumed spoken Sanskrit when found in the same time and place as a series of writings, would automatically lead to the conclusion the two are identical.

We will avoid presuming that, since, Vedic Aryas must have arisen in the Ganges-Yamuna doab, and, subsequently, partially mixed with some number of IVC tribes or kingdoms. The IVC may or may not have spoken Sanskrit, but, most likely did not originally have the mythology or rites of the Vedas. Instead, probably in a pre-Vedic era, they reflexively absorbed the idea of writing from Elam and Akkadia. If that amounts to "a script", then, nominally, the Aryas would have ignored it.

It may be that western kings implored the Aryas for military assistance, and, in turn, received the Vedas. That is perhaps why the Ramayana loses track of some royal lineages who moved west and never came back. Although it is not a scripture, the events of Ramayana should probably be considered the next oldest to, and least deviant from, the Rg Veda.

It most likely took place during the period of "Vedic composition" and probably meets the tail end of IVC.

For the Seals, a characteristic problem is there are no long passages of writing. There are sometimes eight, to maybe twelve characters, and the largest discovery is about seventeen.

In that case, there are not really patterns of writing that can be ported around and compared to other references. They do not appear to represent repeated sounds, or common words like "and".

There are, however, certain patterns among them. Concerning the relative value of the seals, entire collections (https://www.harappa.com/indus5/79.html) were tossed in the trash:

https://www.harappa.com/sites/default/files/styles/gallery_wide_slide/public/slides/79_3.jpg

An additional six copies of these tablets, again all with the same inscriptions, were found elsewhere in the debris outside of perimeter wall [250] including two near the group of 16 and two in debris between the perimeter and curtain walls. Here all 22 tablets are displayed together with a unicorn intaglio seal from the Period 3B street inside the perimeter wall, which has two of the same signs as those found on the tablets. (See also 55, 56, 57, 58, 59, 60).Quoting from R.H. Meadow and J.M. Kenoyer's article in South Asian Archaeology 1997 (Rome, 2001): "It is tempting to think that the evident loss of utility and subsequent discard of the tablets is related to the “death” of the seal. Seals are almost always found in trash or street deposits (and never yet in a grave) indicating that they were either lost or intentionally discarded, the latter seeming the more likely in most instances. The end of the utility of a seal must relate to some life event of its owner, whether change of status, or death, or the passing of an amount of time during which the seal was considered current. A related consideration is that apparently neither seals nor tablets could be used by just anyone or for any length of time because otherwise they would not have fallen out of circulation. Thus the use of seals -- and of tablets -- was possible only if they were known to be current. Once they were no longer current, they were discarded. This would help explain why a group of 16 (or 18) tablets with the same inscriptions, kept together perhaps in a cloth or leather pouch, could have been deposited with other trash outside of the perimeter wall of Mound E."

So, a whole series might be relevant to one person, for a given reason.

Most of those are three-sided. That's not a trivial amount of "stuff" to throw in one bag. But they, themselves, are trivial, neither grave treasures nor important enough to be smashed with a hammer.

Most of them feature an animal, most of which are identifiable, except for a few like this scriptless chimera:

https://www.harappa.com/sites/default/files/styles/gallery_wide_slide/public/slides/animal-seal.jpg

It does include what is called "Unicorn" which is probably the *most common* find, shown here in a series with variable numbers of glyphs:

https://www.harappa.com/sites/default/files/styles/gallery_wide_slide/public/slides/80_2.jpg

https://www.harappa.com/sites/default/files/styles/gallery_wide_slide/public/slides/1_5.jpg

https://www.harappa.com/sites/default/files/styles/gallery_wide_slide/public/slides/unicorn-seal-harappa-2.jpg

https://www.harappa.com/sites/default/files/styles/gallery_wide_slide/public/slides/steatite-unicorn-seal.jpg

https://www.harappa.com/sites/default/files/styles/gallery_wide_slide/public/slides/56_2_0.jpg

Note this animal almost always appears with an unknown object (https://www.harappa.com/seal/12.html), which happens to resemble the Mandaean Lamp.

It is either an intentional profile, or, a one-horned animal, such as even having been found as a 3D figurine, leading to the opinion of Benedetti and Parpola (http://new-indology.blogspot.com/2014/03/which-animal-was-unicorn-of-indus-seals.html):

...the authors of the Indus seals intended to depict a mythical ṛśya with one long horn. And this mythical figure, associated (possibly identified) with Indra and Prajāpati, was transformed in the later tradition into a Ṛṣi bringer of rain and fertility, presented as a son (in the Vaṃśa Brāhmaṇa) or descendant of Kaśyapa, the Ṛṣi creator of living beings.

But as to the possible relation of IVC to Vedic rites. One thing that may not be commonly known about an Agni temple is that it builds a fire that reaches the temperature of the Sun. And one finds a decision process that led them to handle it with an earthen vessel. In turn, the vessel was handled by tongs made of a pair of S-shaped unicorn horns in the view of Vajracharya (http://www.ejvs.laurasianacademy.com/Unicorn-compressed.pdf):

More importantly, our findings indicate that Vedic Aryans were familiar with some ecological
aspects of the Indus Valley civilization, such as the animal habitats that existed around them. In
our earlier work, we demonstrated that the popularity of the pipal tree in the Indus seals as a
most important symbol of the civilization correlates with the significance of the tree mentioned
in Vedic texts as a harbinger of monsoon. Vedic word for the pipal tree is asvattha, which was
also the name of the early month of monsoon in the everyday language of ancient India, mainly
in the upper Indus Valley. Such correlation prods us to develop a research methodology based
on the ecologically linked cultural aspects of the Indus and Vedic civilizations.

Whether it was a real unicorn, or, a profile of an antelope that normally has two horns, I do not know. But here we would find the main connecting factor which is actually the Tree.

Ficus religiosa (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ficus_religiosa):

It is also known as the bodhi tree, pimple tree, peepul tree, peepal tree, pipala tree, ashvattha tree (in India and Nepal), or Asathu (ඇසතු) in Sinhala.

As soon as we hit the name "asvatta" it means "horses stand under it" and this indeed would be the very foundation of Vedic and Yogic belief and practice.

The "halter or blanket" on the Unicorn is considered a "pipal leaf shape", but, more tellingly, this is called a Pipal Tree with two Unicorn Heads:

https://www.harappa.com/sites/default/files/styles/galleryformatter_slide/public/529862_10151487862744846_105747672_n.jpg

As the "horned deity" is also found with one, it appears instead of "temples" that IVC had three tree deities (https://www.academia.edu/25651400/Tree_gods_of_Indus_valley_civilization). That begins with Bulls tethered to three different trees. The article remains speculative.

The Pipal is also on the Procession Seal (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Horned_deities_on_an_Indus_Valley_seal_with_detail.jpg) with a Zebu Bull and Seven Sisters--Pleiades (?). Or, it is a Human-faced Ram (https://www.harappa.com/blog/pleiades-seal), not a bull. The exalted figure probably has a horned crown (https://www.harappa.com/content/detailed-religious-scene-seal) similar to Hathor of Egypt, etc.

Fig is an inflorescence (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ficus_religiosa) that must be pollinated by a wasp, is virtually pan-Indic, and:

The earliest known record of Ficus religiosa in human culture is the use of peepal leaf motifs in the pottery of the Helmand culture, found at Mundigak site, in Kandahar, Afghanistan, dating back to third millennium (ca. 2,700) BCE.

F. religiosa has a lifespan ranging between 900 and 1,500 years. The Jaya Sri Maha Bodhi tree in the city of Anuradhapura in Sri Lanka is estimated to be more than 2,250 years old.

Helmand is not IVC and does have temples and palaces.

Arguably, a leaf design on pottery does not say as much as trees holding exalted people, heroes (?) or demi-gods (?) as is found in the seals.

In the "Procession", my reaction to girls with Plume Headdresses is they are Sabaris, i. e., tribals such as Bhils, Kols, "Dravidians", who were generally "outside" of the Aryas or Buddhists, but were sought and coveted, certainly by Buddhists anyway. They are "Shakti" in most respects.

They are phenomenally relevant to the semi-suppressed methods of Atharva Veda.

Not simply for "conversion" purposes, either, but more for their own raw power.

So I am not quite sure the seal tells me any astronomical details about the Pleiades, but, it certainly appears to combine Sabaris with the Asvattha Tree, which is a major underpinning of our whole tradition.

The ram or goat may be found around pdf p. 381 (https://ignca.gov.in/Asi_data/76884.pdf) of Parpola's 1987 Corpus. Not very common or prominent but recognizable (he even has a bunny rabbit in there which is actually cute).

UNESCO (https://en.unesco.org/silkroad/sites/default/files/knowledge-bank-article/vol_I%20silk%20road_the%20indus%20civilization%20BIS.pdf)says:

There are some extraneous elements, like the figures of Gilgamesh and Enkidu, also
appearing in Indus seals.

Really? So.

There was a somewhat complex mythology of the Bull in Sumeria and Egypt, which happens to be around the beginning of the Age of Taurus, or within it.

The mythology cannot physically or verbally exist without the presence of Lapis Lazuli, which was already provisioned.

As the Bull also has to do with rains or fertility, the period ends around the Droughts of the Meghalayan Age, which approximates the beginning of the Age of Aries the Ram.

The Ram is then known as the vehicle of Agni, who is central to the Vedas and the myths incorporated into the Asvattha Tree.

And so if I find a seal that appears to show a party of Sabaris, Fig Trees, and an unusual Ram, it looks almost exactly like I am looking at the beginning of the Age of Aries and the teachings that are drawn forth through the Vedas.

Originally, we cannot see why it would not be the same Bull El of Canaan, in fact the Mandaeans specifically record Tauriel as a name of Abatur, and, designate a second Bull, Qadiael, as an assistant of Adam. I think the Sumerian and Egyptian legends may be similar. There are similarly "higher and lower" deities, waters, suns, bulls, breaths, throughout most of these, until evidently Elijah and Yhwh attack it and attempt to confine the whole spectrum to the Demiurge.

Along with the Fig, the other trees primarily depicted in the seals are thought to be Sami (coniferous) and Bilvum (rose apple) or Neem.

Is this tremendously different from the Sacred Groves of the Druids, having Oak as the most powerful?

As a reader of symbolism, my instinct would be to trace the significance of Indus Seals by the Trees.

Bharatkalyan takes the approach that the animals are metals or alloys and their respective guilds.

Not knowing if this is really the case, we can find that prior to coinage, ingots and weights of various metals were used as stores of value.

However, Iron was not really available until the Age of Aries (except meteoric iron). The Hittites temporarily monopolized it, but then, by around 1,380 B. C. E., finding an Arya Dynasty in the same area, there is a strong chance this may have been due to the wealth from steel slugs, because India is the real source of Wootz Steel or Damascus Steel. At first, this probably was worth more than gold. The technology is observed in the later Vedas, which matches the timing.

This is what originally got my attention, because there is an intense fusion of esoterism, metaphysics, and history in the real Bharat Jana (http://bharatkalyan97.blogspot.com/2016/01/bogazkoy-indus-script-seal-bogazkoy.html):

This narrative explains the presene of Indus Script (Meluhha) seal in Bogazkoy, dated ca. 1400 BCE. A remarkable coincidence is that the Bogazkoy treaty is dated to the fourteenth century BCE. In a treaty between the Hittites and the Mitanni between Suppiluliuma and Shattiwaza, c. 1380 BC, the deities Mitra, Varuna, Indra, and Nasatya (Ashvins) are invoked.

which he explains merely historically:

Ayu migrated eastwards. His (people) are the Kuru-Pancalas and the Kasi-Videhas. This is the Ayava (migration). Amavasu migrated westwards. His (people) are the Ghandhari, Parsu and Aratta. This is the Amavasu (migration).

without mentioning he is commenting one of the most important parts of Rg Veda.

This is so, because "Ayu" is Life, or Life Wind, such as in Ayurveda. And so we are still dealing with a semi-Garden of Eden and a divine Primordial Man and the task of manifestation. However, in the objective sense, he is also referring to the important forthcoming dynasties of India, post-Vedic wars.

The treaty is compatible with Aryas and Mandaeans (http://www.heritageinstitute.com/zoroastrianism/ranghaya/suppiluliuma_shattiwaza_treaty.htm):

...the Storm-god, Lord of Heaven and Earth, the Moon-god and the Sun-god, the Moon-god of Harran, heaven and earth, the Storm-god, Lord of the kurinnu of Kahat, the Deity of Herds of Kurta, the Storm-god, Lord of Uhušuman, Ea-šarri, Lord of Wisdom, Anu, Antu, Enlil, Ninlil, the Mitra-gods, the Varuna-gods, Indra, the Nasatya-gods, Lord of Waššukanni, the Storm-god, Lord of the Temple Platform (?) of Irrite, Partahi of Šuta, Nabarbi, Šuruhi, Ištar, Evening Star, Šala, Belet-ekalli, Damkina, Išhara, the mountains and rivers, the deities of heaven and the deities of earth.

He reduced Akhenaten (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C5%A0uppiluliuma_I) in Syria and Canaan and turned around and died from Egyptian plague.

The above confirms that Vedic deities were at parity with understanding all the way to Harran.

Probably Egypt as well, but, we could understand why their gods are excluded by this treaty.

On pdf p.28 (https://safarmer.com/fsw2.pdf), Witzel, in claiming the Harappans were illiterate, credits them with unity, a lack of monuments, or large standing armies. Green (https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0278416520302051) thinks Sumerian seals were, and Indus seals were not, used to promote debt inequality.

If IVC was relatively unarmed, it makes sense they might call upon the Aryas for protection.

When looking at symbols moreso than writing, from Gandabherunda as the symbol of Karnataka (https://www.deccanherald.com/india/karnataka/gandaberunda-flights-of-the-two-headed-bird-772554.html):

Historically, such a bird is found on a mural that dates back to 3600 BC in Persepolis, of the Hakkan civilisation, now in Iran. Another is found in an inscription at Boğazköy, now in Turkey, dating back to 1500 BC.

Being also Hittite (https://www.uwlax.edu/globalassets/offices-services/urc/jur-online/pdf/2011/chariton.arc.pdf):

The double-headed eagle motif has been used as an emblem by countries, nations, and royal houses in Europe
since the early medieval period. Notable examples include the Byzantine House of Palaiologos, the Holy Roman
Empire, the House of Habsburg, and the Ruriks and Romanovs of Russia.

The Simorgh of Avestan, or, intending the Bogazkoy Seal, Homa bird Syena or Sena (http://bharatkalyan97.blogspot.com/2018/04/euphratic-and-meluhha-indus-script.html) "brings down" Soma.

Usually translated "hawk", then yes this is completely significant to the Rg Veda.

The basic formula involves using a fire hot as the Sun--intellectually learnable. The ultimate process is Soma Offering which is thoroughly mystical.

Most mythologies seem to access a similar basic pattern, but, I am not sure any of them can follow where the Vedic Soma Offering is going. That may just be because they are gone, since arguably it could resemble the "mystery religion".

Although, in India, this is largely in the story of Agni and the Pleiades, I would try not to "force" that on the Procession Seal. On the other hand, it is difficult to "prevent" it from coming across as a bunch of Sabaris and something sacred involving an Asvattha Tree.

That's very tantalizing.

I can take the seal, and explain it with 3,000 years of Sanskrit literature, and, significant portions of most other mythologies, or, figure it must be unrelated.

The Tree is what I find particularly compelling and convincing, especially because it has other appearances.

In one sense, the Asvattha is the alphabet, is language.

Jim_Duyer

8th December 2023, 16:12

UPDATE:
You may recall that I mentioned in a previous post that most of the truly ancient writings on antlers and bone can be translated using an alphabet that I devised (syllabic) along with the earliest spoken language - Aquitaine, which is today only preserved in the Basque language. In Basque we find that their word for "axe" is "stone axe", testifying to their early age. Add to that the fact that the Cro-Magnons arose nearby and that they have the highest RH negative blood, presents other pieces of the puzzle.

So imagine my surprise when looking yestday into Easter Island writing.

Their Oral histories recount how various people used divine power to command the statues (Moai) to walk. The earliest accounts say a king named Tuu Ku Ihu moved them with the help of the god Makemake, while later stories tell of a woman who lived alone on the mountain ordering them about at her will. The mythical king Tuu Ku Ihu moved the famous island statues to their present positions with divine help.

Tuu Ku is a Basque word (ttuku-ttuku) and it means "in small, halting steps." So apparently the king caused them to move, but slowly.

Ihu could be either the Basque word (b)ihu(n), which means "soft, gentle," or perhaps the Basque word (b)ihu(r), meaning "a fold in a rope, twisted, twisted rope," or perhaps (o)ihu, meaning "to shout."
bihur = a fold in a rope, twisted
oihu = shout

All of which could describe the soft, gentle movements in halting steps aided in surmounting some obstacles by folded or twisted ropes. Because even sky-gods need a hand from the king from time to time. And shouting when it was accomplished? Why not?

Makemake (also written as Make-make or MakeMake; pronounced ['make'make] in Rapa Nui, this word indicates their mythology of Easter Island concerning the creator of humanity, the god of fertility and the chief god of the bird-man cult (this cult succeeded the island's more famous Moai era).

Basque word "maker" = surly, disagreeable, rude

The Chief god chief god of the "Tangata manu" or bird-man cult is found in the Basque word "tanta or tanto", meaning "to drop". As in, bird-men that drop from the mountains or the sky.
And the Basque word manu means "order, command", and so the bird-men of their cult dropped from the sky by command of someone or something.

No, I do not believe it was the Basque themselves who made the trip to Easter Island, and No, I do not believe that early sailors, many of whom were Basque, taught the natives those words. I believe that the same way in which this ancient writing and alphabet spread from South Africa to the United States and from Russia to Scotland, was also spread to Easter Island. Or more properly, we should ask whether it originated in the Pacific and then spread to all the places I mentioned.

BTW - the same birds carved into the stone statues and into the rocks near the caves on Easter Island, and I mean the same ones, can be found in Gobekli Tepe as well as in Mohenjo Daro.

BTW - a few years ago they fully uncoverd one of the statues on Easter Island for the first time. Why the first time - wouldn't you think that archaeologists would wish to examine the entire artifact? That is, unless they already knew what they might find and did not wish to do so. But when they did, there were markings, in some ancient language, on the part that had been previously hidden under the earth. You will not find images of this, at least no clear ones. I suspect that it is very similar to the writings in Gobekli Tepe and the predecessor to the Sumerian and Harappan writings.

I will say this - the first time, several years ago, that my computer melted down due to a "virus", and I lost both my hard drive and my backup somehow, and my mother board was fried as well as my computer memory, I was attempting to learn more about what is carved and buried on Easter Island. That's why I mentioned that I am more interested in the markings in the caves there than their Indus-like script. Time will tell if I can obtain this somehow. But I am sure that my computer "accidents" were just that. Right.

The Gobekli Tepe area markings look more like the Harappan-Indus script than the early Sumerian, although both can be deciphered using the other. The Easter Island script on their paddles looks like Gobekli Tepe and Harappan-Indus and less like early Sumerian.

My gut tells me the source was the South Pacific, spread to Easter Island and very probably other islands in the Pacific (the ones that the entire world has not made radioactive via nuclear bomb testing) then it moved into Anatolia (Turkey) where the Sumerians adapted and modified it, and then on to Pakistan where they also modified it, but less than the Sumerians did.

There are Basque-English dictionaries online to check my findings above - Prof. Trask made the best one.

Jim_Duyer

8th December 2023, 17:09

shaberon - I'm using this separately so that it does not get added to my last post by some magic of the system.
I have a few comments on your excellent contribution:

[[Instead, probably in a pre-Vedic era, they reflexively absorbed the idea of writing from Elam and Akkadia. If that amounts to "a script", then, nominally, the Aryas would have ignored it.]] They assign or align it with Elamite. This is just another cheap magicians trick - look over here, while they pull your wallet out of your pocket. At the time that the tablet with Harappan writing was uncovered in Elam, it was a satellite of Sumeria - an outpost or governorship with appointed rulers by the Sumerians who had captured it. The Elamites had their own (entirely goofy) writings, and are not in any way the source of the Harappan. That's beyond dispute because they can not be translated with Elamite, only with Sumerian. Yes, most of the surrounding civilizations used Sumerian cuneiform - but always with their own language as the underlying language - and this has Sumerian as the underlying. The only group that did that, other than the Sumerians, was their neighbors in the old lands - the Hurrians. And it doesn't exhibit the Hurrian style, even though the Hurrians had outposts nearby the Elamites - the Sabians, for example, were a tribe of Hurrian affiliated peoples.
[[ In that case, there are not really patterns of writing that can be ported around and compared to other references. They do not appear to represent repeated sounds, or common words like "and".]] The Sumerians have a word for "and". I have never seen it employed, in several hundreds of tablets. Our scholars assure me that it has been used, but then they feebly point to some Akkadian or Old Babylonian tablet, and that will not match, time-wise. I nearly always preface this with "absent a time-machine" but I won't do so anymore - someone might think I was serious. Eeeks!
[[ Note this animal [Unicorn] almost always appears with an unknown object, which happens to resemble the Mandaean Lamp.]] Funny, I never saw it as a lamp. To my eyes it looks very clearly like a sailing vessel. And probably a sailing vessel would be implied in the importation of such a rare creature - known only to the Harappans and the Hebrews apparently obtained from some far land. Or it may have even existed at one time - I don't honestly know.

[[the authors of the Indus seals intended to depict a mythical ?sya with one long horn. And this mythical figure, associated (possibly identified) with Indra and Prajapati, was transformed in the later tradition into a ??i bringer of rain and fertility, presented as a son (in the Va?sa Brahma?a) or descendant of Kasyapa, the ??i creator of living beings.]] Well, your knowledge exceeds mine in this area.

[[Along with the Fig, the other trees primarily depicted in the seals are thought to be Sami (coniferous) and Bilvum (rose apple) or Neem.]] More importantly, in my opinion, have you seen any depictions of pomegranates? William Blake, that esoteric Englishman, was absolutely in command of very ancient knowledge that a great many have tried to keep from mankind. He posited that Lilith, who survives only in mythical form in the stories of the Rabbi that did not make the bibles, was the one offering, not an apple, but a pomegranate, to Eve in the Garden. And by the way, his Lilith had six toes on each feet, according to one version of his art that is not widely circulated but which I have on my desktop. Anyway, he posits that Lilith offered this fruit due to its known properties in abortion or birth control, later noted by the Romans and Greeks. As to why she might need that, he offers quite a bit of detail, including the supposed "father", but I will leave that up to those interested enough to read his works, which are excellent. Let's just say that he would have made, or was, a great Gnostic priest.

[[Quote ...the Storm-god, Lord of Heaven and Earth, the Moon-god and the Sun-god, the Moon-god of Harran, heaven and earth, the Storm-god, Lord of the kurinnu of Kahat, the Deity of Herds of Kurta, the Storm-god, Lord of Uhušuman, Ea-šarri, Lord of Wisdom, Anu, Antu, Enlil, Ninlil, the Mitra-gods, the Varuna-gods, Indra, the Nasatya-gods, Lord of Waššukanni, the Storm-god, Lord of the Temple Platform (?) of Irrite, Partahi of Šuta, Nabarbi, Šuruhi, Ištar, Evening Star, Šala, Belet-ekalli, Damkina, Išhara, the mountains and rivers, the deities of heaven and the deities of earth.]] Everything listed his is either Akkadian or Amorite-Elamite (the early tribes of the Sim'alite Hebrews, or what would later become half of the Hebrews) and wrote in the Babylonian period. None has its source in Sumerian literature.

[[Witzel, in claiming the Harappans were illiterate, credits them with unity, a lack of monuments, or large standing armies. Green thinks Sumerian seals were, and Indus seals were not, used to promote debt inequality.]] This Witzel sounds like a real tool. Was he a proclaimed Nazi or did he hide his affiliations? Green is not only another tool but an ignorant one. The Sumerians loaned money with either no or low interest, repayable in crops or yields, or trade goods. Women owned property, were scribes and priests, sometimes even ruled Sumeria, were goddesses in some cases, and infractions of the law were repaid with fines in most cases. The Babylonians, consisting of early Hebrew tribes combined with their Elamite neighbors and some Assyrians (whom they ruled) introduced loads repayable only in silver. And then they rushed to conquer and control all of the sources of silver. They introduced the eye for an eye, tooth for tooth type of civil and criminal laws, and changed the goddesses into gods. Women were property of their husbands, and you know the rest. This is not me speaking, all of these claims are backed by historical records. They also took the Sumerian tablets, that they felt they "owned" as conquerors, and rewrote, in much expanded versions, the epics for the benefit of themselves and to solidify their rule over the few, pathetic, remnants of the Sumerian people. Historical and cultural genocide by these "swarming" hordes of invaders.

Thanks for the clues on the Vedic connections. I'm working on some more examples of Indus Script today.

BTW - I found a website that claims there is a $10,000 reward to anyone who can successfully translate at least 50 characters of the Indus Script. I'm on 21 today.

Jim_Duyer

8th December 2023, 18:58

Yes, it did spread from Anatolia to India and not vice-versa. The next translation says: Our forefathers were overwhelmed by troops, whose descendants gave birth to the worship of the Earth Mother.

Jim_Duyer

8th December 2023, 19:42

Shaberon - I've found the connection that you mentioned with tree, or fig tree.

One of the fish symbols in the Indus script translates (3000 BC) to "(to be) thick; to thicken; (to be) wide; to swell, bloat; to give birth (to); (to be) pregnant; pregnancy; grandson; descendant; seedling; innards; to breathe; to gather"
But the same symbol is also used, just a bit later (2500 BC) to denote: a fig, a fig tree
In Sumerian I should mention.

And if we think about it, an idea of expanding, trees of generations, seedlings, etc. fits inside of the tree motif as well.

Jim_Duyer

9th December 2023, 01:22

For 30 years the UCLA team has been on site at Easter Island. Out of thousand or so statues, they have dug up only two, and they publish only one of those, and they only publish a portion of the writings on the back. Coincidence I'm sure.
The back says, in Sumerian from 3500 BC or prior, pretty clearly, THE WHOLE FOUNDATION IS THE SUN.
The vulture images there, including one who is rolling an egg, is identical to Gobekli Tepe and also found
in Mohenjo Daro.

lucine

9th December 2023, 05:04

Woah, there are over a thousand of those things over there! That's so incredible. The public image provided of those statues are usually just the 7-8 of them lined up in a row. I thought those were the only ones there. There being 1000 of them changes the entire image that one forms of those statues and their presence.

I bet that it's forbidden to dig the others out too. I wonder about all that could be discovered written on those statues.

I find it strange that the natives did not dig some of the statues out themselves (or maybe they did?). In many parts of the world, seeing partially buried statues would have triggered the curiosity of the people living there and there would be at least a few dug out.

I wonder what kind of myths and legends they have on those islands. It must be pretty magical living there.

shaberon

9th December 2023, 08:10

The Elamites had their own (entirely goofy) writings, and are not in any way the source of the Harappan. That's beyond dispute because they can not be translated with Elamite, only with Sumerian. Yes, most of the surrounding civilizations used Sumerian cuneiform - but always with their own language as the underlying language - and this has Sumerian as the underlying. The only group that did that, other than the Sumerians, was their neighbors in the old lands - the Hurrians.

The "borrowed cuneiform" is also the case for what I am about to argue is the fulcrum from older and more eastern, to newer and western, Luwian (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luwian_language):

Luwian was split into many dialects, which were written in two different writing systems. One of these was the Cuneiform Luwian which used the form of Old Babylonian cuneiform that had been adapted for the Hittite language. The other was Hieroglyphic Luwian, which was written in a unique native hieroglyphic script. The differences between the dialects are minor, but they affect vocabulary, style, and grammar. The different orthographies of the two writing systems may also hide some differences.

Because Latium was founded by refugees from the Trojan War:

...several scholars shared the view that Luwian was spoken—to varying degrees—across a large portion of western Anatolia, including Troy (Wilusa)...

And moreover, it is the language of Titaness Leto and Apollo Lycia (https://www.theoi.com/Titan/TitanisLeto.html) sometimes described only symbolicly:

All the world being afraid of receiving her on account of Hera, she wandered about till she came to the island of Delos, which was then a floating island, and bore the name Asteria (Callim. Hymn. in Dian. 35, 37, 191); but when Leto touched it, it suddenly stood still upon four pillars. (Pind. Fragm. 38; Strab. xi. p. 485.)

but also having a terrestrial continuation. They go to the Letoon (https://www.whitman.edu/theatre/theatretour/letoum/commentary/letoum.history.htm):

Letoon (also spelled Letoum, near modern Kumluova, Turkey)

Letoon was the sacred cult center of Lycia, its most important sanctuary, and was dedicated to the three national deities of Lycia - Leto and her twin children Apollo and Artemis. Leto was also worshiped as a family deity and as the guardian of the tomb.

Letoon was a sanctuary precinct and not actually a city, and seems to have had no major settlement associated with it at any period. It was administered by Xanthos and was the spiritual heart of Lycia, its federal sanctuary and the place of national festivals. Letoon was the center of pagan cults activity until perhaps the 5th century AD when Lycia was ravaged by Arab attacks and the area started to silt up with sand brought by the Xanthos River. It is believed to have been abandonded by the 7th century AD.

Archaeological finds date back to the late 6th century BC. During the Archaic and Classical periods (7th-5th century BC) the site was probably sacred to to the cult of an earlier mother goddess (Eni Mahanahi in Lycia), which was later superseded by the worship of Leto.

The Lycian cult of Leto was one of the many forms of the wide-spread mother-goddess religion which originated in ancient Anatolia and spread throughout the ancient world. It is noteworthy that a woman was allowed to preside over the national assembly that was held each autumn at Letoon - perhaps a reminder of the ancient matriarchal customs in Anatolia.

Here is another brief page where out of all the related sites, this one appears to be the most important (https://www.artichaeology.com/home-of-leto).

https://static.wixstatic.com/media/dde846_c1689220dd85440790b1c32df52f55d9~mv2.jpg/v1/fill/w_802,h_490,al_c,lg_1,q_85,enc_auto/Screenshot_5.jpg

The legend of Letoon is based on a legend told by the poet Ovidius. According to his epic, Goddess Leto, who got pregnant from Zeus known as ''The God of Gods'', gave birth to two other Greek mythological Gods, Artemis and Apollo in Delos. They are generally depicted as Greek mythological gods in Greek pantheon. But, in fact, these two Gods are completely unique to the Anatolian nations or tribes, and these peoples, like the Lycians, the Trojans, the Lydians, the Figians, had no similarity with the ancient Greek people. Only the mythologies and spiritual systems of both (Anatolian and Ionic Peoples) have been influenced and intertwined with each other because they live in contact with elbows in an area to be counted in the same geography for those days. In general, Artemis is the transferred name of the Anatolian Mother Goddess which is in the Hittites '' Kubaba '' in the Phrygians '' Cybele ''. These names than changed into ''Artemis'' with the influence of Greek mythology. In the epic inscription ''Iliad'' of Homer, Artemis and Apollo are portrayed while fighting against Greeks as allies of Anatolian people in Troja war.

The story is even sculpted at Versailles:

http://latone.chateauversailles.fr/elements/datas/editor/1362752856.jpg

Luwian comes back when we grill (https://web.sas.upenn.edu/discentes/2023/07/23/the-anatolian-connection-traditional-epithets-of-apollo-in-the-iliad/) the epithets:

Apollo, the most Hellenic of the gods to later Greeks, is envisioned as a divine mediator between the Greeks and Trojans.

Let us begin with the theonym “Apollo” itself, the precise origin of which remains unknown. Recent scholarship, however, has increasingly supported a connection between Ἀπόλλων and the god Āppaliunāš, who is mentioned in the 13th c. BC Hittite “Manapa-Tarhunta letter” as a god of the Troad polis Wilusa, identified as the Ilion of the Iliad.

Apollo in particular is invoked by name without Zeus or Athena only by the Trojans.

Most intriguing are Brown’s (2004, 248f.) etymology connecting the name to the Luwian appaliya–, “The One of Entrapping” or “The Hunter,” and Rutherford’s (2020, 111ff.) and Bachvarova’s (2022, 108) link to the Hittite god Appaluwa, mentioned in an Arzawan plague ritual. These etymologies, respectively, match Apollo’s association with the bow and arrow and with plagues in the Iliad. Regardless of his particular ancestry, it is likely that there was a widespread cult in the Bronze Age Eastern Mediterranean of a god known to the Greeks by the Luwian-derived epithet “Apollo.”

"Lycian" is a later, replacement language, whereas the site is almost certainly Luwian.

That means that Apollo was transmitted from here to Delphi and other oracular sites, and in cultic form all the way to Scotland.

Leto, Apollo, Artemis, Athenian, ca. 6th century B. C. E.:

https://www.theoi.com/image/T14.6Leto_sm.jpg

Up to ca. 308 (https://www.jesusneverexisted.com/invincible-mithras.html):

At this stage, the renegade Constantine, skulking in Trier, opted for his own version of the sun god – Apollo.

Also using Mithras/Mitra, a Vedic Aditya, it looks like the Solar Cult was springboarded from the Letoon throughout Europe, probably reaching its apex there in Trier.

To my eyes it looks very clearly like a sailing vessel. And probably a sailing vessel would be implied in the importation of such a rare creature - known only to the Harappans and the Hebrews apparently obtained from some far land. Or it may have even existed at one time - I don't honestly know.

Some have tried to call it a feeding trough--although this is standardized and common with the Buffalo:

https://www.harappa.com/sites/default/files/styles/gallery_wide_slide/public/slides/bison-seal_0.jpg

or with Rhinoceros and Tiger:

https://www.harappa.com/sites/default/files/styles/gallery_wide_slide/public/slides/mohenjo-daro-14.jpg

Mackay also guessed that it could have been a cage for birds or insects, or an incense burner. A fifth, more recent theory suggests that the object may have been the filter used to extract the intoxicating Soma drink described in the Rg Veda.

Agreed, yes, in the modern sense, it suggests a ship. That, however, would not work too well if it is an in-scale object associated with the animal.

More importantly, in my opinion, have you seen any depictions of pomegranates?

No--in fact this is particularly reversed (https://1000namesoflalitha.blogspot.com/2020/12/561-dadimi-kusuma-prabha.html):

Dadimi tree means Pomegranate tree. There are two types of Dadimi trees.

Fruit bearing - This has flowers. Fruits come out those flowers.

Flower bearing - This is popular for its flowers. It does not bear fruits.

The flowers of Pomegranate tree are in red color. Divine mother's radiance is in this color. So she is called Dadimi kusuma prabha - One who glows in the color of a Pomegranate flower.

It is not part of anyone's group of sacred trees, and, it is only occasionally used as a color--less frequently than hibiscus or bandhuka. This is the kind of thing I call "conspicuous by absence". You would expect to find it. The South Indian Wish Granting Tree is usually the Coconut.

On the treaty:

Everything listed his is either Akkadian or Amorite-Elamite (the early tribes of the Sim'alite Hebrews, or what would later become half of the Hebrews) and wrote in the Babylonian period. None has its source in Sumerian literature.

Probably, again this is at or very close to 1,380 B. C. E., and of course it is unusual because why would obvious Vedic Deities be stitched in to what would otherwise be a relatively standard litany for the region?

And, this is also the main reason to say the contents of the Rg Veda were canonized or codified by 1,500 B. C. E., and therefor most likely earlier. If we estimate with the presence of the Spoked Wheel and the absence of Iron, we would probably say its "new content" ceases by around 1,800 B. C. E. The presence of Iron, again curiously suggests a rationale for winding up around the Hittites.

This part is fairly close to how I think of things:

This Witzel sounds like a real tool. Was he a proclaimed Nazi or did he hide his affiliations? Green is not only another tool but an ignorant one. The Sumerians loaned money with either no or low interest, repayable in crops or yields, or trade goods. Women owned property, were scribes and priests, sometimes even ruled Sumeria, were goddesses in some cases, and infractions of the law were repaid with fines in most cases. The Babylonians, consisting of early Hebrew tribes combined with their Elamite neighbors and some Assyrians (whom they ruled) introduced loads repayable only in silver. And then they rushed to conquer and control all of the sources of silver. They introduced the eye for an eye, tooth for tooth type of civil and criminal laws, and changed the goddesses into gods. Women were property of their husbands, and you know the rest. This is not me speaking, all of these claims are backed by historical records. They also took the Sumerian tablets, that they felt they "owned" as conquerors, and rewrote, in much expanded versions, the epics for the benefit of themselves and to solidify their rule over the few, pathetic, remnants of the Sumerian people. Historical and cultural genocide by these "swarming" hordes of invaders.

This is all fairly new to me.

I fell into it accidentally because I did not realize how intertwined the things I am personally interested in are with Indian Nationalism.

I had to agree with a remark someone made to the effect that, well, as devotees of Yoga or Indian philosophy, etc., we are probably used to seeing stray quotes from the Rg Veda as if to illustrate our teachings. But we know nothing about it. Why is this line simply being taken and assimilated?

And the Nationalists do the same sort of thing, but it turned out to be fairly easy to refute and is not even a good case. It would work, however, if no one knew what to say.

Similarly, if the statement that thirty-five Elamite characters inspired Indus Script does not sound right to you, that is probably a Witzel-ism.

He seems like the kind of guy that for maybe five or ten years you thought he had a point, but, eventually, it seems more like an academic maneuver than correct knowledge.

And so on the second part, yes, a significant part that I know of about Mesopotamian relics is that the economy was geared for relief and was obliged to use the Debt Jubilee, which is something like the worldly aspect of also "covering up" the pagan hypostases of deities. We are told to think it was all exploitive, but actually the things themselves appear to be telling us otherwise.

However, if the Jubilee was the main definition of Good or Bad Kings, then, we should consider that there *were* predatory classes that were *known to* engineer oppression and exploitation, and there would be times of reprimands as well as probable failure of the kings to do anything.

On the whole, this was done in most places, except for Rome.

The findings for IVC are Grains, Garden Vegetables, with Cattle central to the economy (https://www.jstor.org/stable/24968852).

And, if even something like Mohenjo-daro appears not to have been occupied more than about two hundred years, could also be explainable by Cattle (https://www.penn.museum/sites/expedition/cattle-and-the-harappan-chiefdoms-of-the-indus-valley/):

One explanation for the wide distribution of short-term settlements may lie in the Harappan cattle herds. Cattle require good grazing land year round. If green pastures are not available, herds must be supplied with fodder. As grazers, cattle are in competition with wild species, in this case buffalo, elephant, and rhinoceros. (Note that the only other wild animal represented on the Harappan seal-tablets, the tiger, finds a major source of food in the wild and domestic grazers.)

The Harappans’ solution to this dilemma seems to have been quite simple: they adopted a pattern of migration, a movement away from areas where land limitation and the vagaries of the seasons made cohabitation impractical.

The Vedic wars have their origin in cattle rustling. It's not a religious crusade.

The "Pleiades" are sometimes also called "a wedding".

This is often considered to be the most "meaningful" of them all. Might not be another one like it. In some cases, the glyphs are one-offs never again seen.

Artist's interpretation of the Procession Seal:

https://www.penn.museum/sites/expedition/files/2022/02/cattle13.jpg

https://www.harappa.com/sites/default/files/styles/gallery_wide_slide/public/slides/deity-seal_0.jpg

A human head rests on a small stool.

The seal has a grooved and perforated boss and the edges are worn and rounded from repeated use.

The trained eye suggests this is:

a “cow-woman” attacking a horned or feathered tiger.

https://www.penn.museum/sites/expedition/files/2022/02/cattle05.jpg

Jim_Duyer

9th December 2023, 17:18

Shaberon - as usual you are causing me to think. Woe is me. Well, the Elamite at 35 symbols is a magic trick - that's less than 10% of the total.
Luwian was proposed for the Jerf al Arman inscriptions as well - until I pointed out to the peer-reviewed scholar from Yale who suggested it that the Luwians formed as a tribe and then a group in 1600s BC. Again, they did not influence the Jerf nor Gobekli Symbols from 9,000 BC absent the time machine.
They also trot him out when they try to explain the Gobekli Tepe writings. They have shills for nearly everything these days.
The last writing I did of Indus Script has, as the end of the line: the Mother Goddess gave birth to three things: Trees, Flowers, and Fruit. They have other attributes for her as well, but that's the last one I did.
Yesterday (and today) I have a cold. First one in six years. And I rushed to judgement on the Easter island translation from the back of the Moai. It could also say: Time is the whole - the essence of everything. Same characters are there for that as well, just read left to right instead of right to left. And doesn't that sound a bit more like what Atlanteans might say?

I'm going back to work on publishing. I finally figured out a way to make most everybody happy - without angering the Christians or others (probably just scholars but that can't be helped, and it's a given with me anyway), so if I can put together two words while ridden with a cold I will do so asap. Jim

shaberon

11th December 2023, 07:40

Luwian was proposed for the Jerf al Arman inscriptions as well - until I pointed out to the peer-reviewed scholar from Yale who suggested it that the Luwians formed as a tribe and then a group in 1600s BC. Again, they did not influence the Jerf nor Gobekli Symbols from 9,000 BC absent the time machine.

Indeed. The issue that I would look for would be a trail of cultural and intellectual continuity--such as we can see from Luwian moving forward in the guise of Apollo.

Before this, was it just independent, disconnected groups that happened to arise and make stone structures and inscriptions? How long did any Tepe last?

There must have been something, at least physically, since the trail of Wheat and human DNA is about the same. Anatolian influence spread pretty directly across Iran by about 2,000 B. C. E., at which time it as well as the Scythian influence trickled into India rather slowly.

The last writing I did of Indus Script has, as the end of the line: the Mother Goddess gave birth to three things: Trees, Flowers, and Fruit. They have other attributes for her as well, but that's the last one I did.

This may be reasonable, but, at least for me, I have to look at everything in meticulous detail. You put a few things in post 6 (https://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?122336-The-Indus-script-aka-the-Harappan-script-aka-the-WTH-Deciphered.&p=1589349&viewfull=1#post1589349), and there, for glyph 3, that may be what has been taken as "Sami tree".

There is a very compelling trait of Prosopis cineraria (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prosopis_cineraria):

It can survive extreme drought.

A large and well-known example of the species is the Tree of Life in Bahrain – approximately 400 years old and growing in a desert devoid of any obvious sources of water.

In 1730 AD, the village of Khejarli near Jodhpur in Rajasthan was the scene of a violent environmental confrontation. Amrita Devi and her three young daughters gave their lives in an attempt to protect some Khejri trees which Maharaja Abhay Singh had ordered cut to make way for his new palace. This led to widespread defiance in which 363 people were killed trying to save the trees.

It has a famous effect in gardening (https://www.quora.com/Why-is-Prosopis-cineraria-Khejri-Shami-considered-an-important-tree-in-so-many-civilizations-including-Afghanistan-Iran-India-Oman-Pakistan-Saudi-Arabia-Bahrain-the-United-Arab-Emirates-and-Yemen):

Prosopis cineraria is a leguminous tree with a long tap root, which is used by farmers as a shade structure around crops and has been shown to increase yield when grown near crops such as corn, soy and wheat.

For the Procession Seal from Krishna 2023 (https://www.researchgate.net/publication/370473019_Beyond_the_Surface_A_Comprehensive_Analysis_of_Indus_Valley_Seal_XCIV-430_and_its_Representation_of_Vedic_Rituals):

This study examines the iconographical significance of the IVC seal XCIV-430 found in Mohenjo-Daro and compares its meaning with the hymns of the Atharvaveda in order to understand its narrations of the art. It argues that the artist made all the necessary arrangements to understand the mythological ‘goat sacrifice’ event that has importance in Vedic ritual tradition, including the founding fathers, selected plant and animal species, and cosmic associations.

Sacred fires are kindled by two sticks (Agni Manthana), the Ashwattha being male and the Sami is female.

So, the Sami, quite significant especially in the dry regions, is still included as a sacred object.

In a book by E. Richter-Ushanas, Tablet 2719c (https://books.google.com/books?id=4DZYbWQbKAsC&lpg=PA65&ots=JnRYFlJ_pd&dq=sami%20tree%20indus%20script&pg=PA62#v=onepage&q=sami%20tree%20indus%20script&f=false) is supposed to be Soma Pressing and Sami is called Acacia. It is the source of "gum arabic" and the following are considered cognates:

Akkadian Samu, Egyptian Gum, Arabic kimiya (as in alchemy).

This book is practically reading Seals as independent RV verses, but, a few extractable clues say:

In RV X.89.5, Soma is called "simivat", meaning "like a simi or sami". The Sami is often the hostess for the "invasive" Asvattha.

The Mehi-sherd may be telling the story of Pururavas and Urvashi.

The Peacock is the symbol of the soul after death (Harappans believed in rebirth).

RV I.164.20 refers to the two ways (sun and moon) of the soul after death.

Sri's Bilva or wood-apple tree is for protection against evil.

Soma is Vanaspati, "lord of the forest" because it is in all the plants and vegetation.

The Tree of Life is like the Primordial Man, or Manu, and is called purusha same as the incarnating individual.

He says that Harappa was called "Hariyupiya" or "golden post" (yupa), with the meaning that the Soma is the gold. Many settlements were on the Ravi (sun) River, which would again be comparable to "golden". The "post" is like Axis Mundi in later iconography.

Vanni tree(Sami/Khejri)

Another one, Pilu (https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=3676702), an IVC toothbrush tree, derives from a Dravidian "elephant" word, like Hurrian piri/piru.

Well, when I see something like X.89.5 may be telling us something about the Sami tree, is this evident by the translations? Certainly not.

Wilson:

“Appeasing wrath, striking quickly, intimidating foes, doer of great deeds, armed with weapons, possessing the stale residue, Soma nourishes all the Atasa woods, they oppose no impediments against Indra.”

Griffiths:

Rousing with draughts, the Shaker, rushing onward, impetuous, very strong, armed as with arrows
Is Soma; forest trees and all the bushes deceive not Indra with their offered likeness.

They ignored:

1) Śimi (शिमि):—[from śim] f. = śamī, a legume, pod

which has at least eleven (https://www.wisdomlib.org/definition/shimi) examples in RV. Then it is hardly ever used again in any books.

The author is Renu (https://www.wisdomlib.org/definition/renu#hinduism):

1) Reṇu (रेणु).—A teacher-priest, who was the son of hermit Viśvāmitra and the author of a Sūkta in Ṛgveda. (Aitareya-Brāhmaṇa 7. 17. 7; Ṛgveda 9. 70).

2) Reṇu (रेणु).—King of the dynasty of Ikṣvāku. Reṇukā the wife of the hermit Jamadagni, and the mother of Paraśurāma was the daughter of this King. Reṇu had other names such as Prasenajit, Prasena and Suveṇu. (M. B. Anuśāsana Parva, Chapter 116; Verse 2).

Credit for IX.70 (https://www.wisdomlib.org/hinduism/book/rig-veda-english-translation/d/doc837986.html) is given to Renuvisvamitra.

So much is invested in those few lines, it would take three or four massive posts to even examine it.

Firstly, it would be correct that Parasurama is "scriptural" or Vedic, whereas Rama and Krishna are not.

Secondly, one of the most important Vedic lineages incorporates descent from a Mother Goddess (Ila), although like Ayu and Ayodhya, this is more likely symbolic and metaphorical than objective. This is something which is practically ignored by the Priest Caste.

Renuka is also Mother Goddess in the decapitated way (Cinnamasta), which is highly significant to this day in Rasoli and certain other areas in HP.

Should all of this flow from Glyph #3 as mentioned above?

The example posted shows it split into two parts, neither one of which matches the original.

It does not seem to be very common.

The brief article I found on Trees was not very in-depth and is a bit more on the conjectural side. However from some of the bits of it, with the Pipal, the previous Gandharan example just showed it as scrollwork. The following is Balochi (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nausharo) near Mehrgarh:

Pottery fragment from Nausharo, Pre –
Harappan period (2600-2550BC)

https://html.scribdassets.com/4dlzbhlv7k8uzivn/images/1-a5c8793520.jpg

That so far seems to be the most suggestive of a pantheon or systemic symbolism of some kind.

Here is another Nausharo pot. Is that the Indus "Branch" glyph to the side?

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/65/Nausharo_Matka.jpg/400px-Nausharo_Matka.jpg

Nausharo also produced a Toy Cart (https://www.harappa.com/category/slide-place/nausharo) with solid wheels.

Suggestions for the Sami glyphs are in the lower box of this thing:

https://html.scribdassets.com/4dlzbhlv7k8uzivn/images/3-87d158aaf9.jpg

Mahabharata narrates the incident of worship
ping the ‘’Samitree’’. Before going into ‘’Agyat-
vasa’ (one year life of incognito),
the Pandavas prayed the Sami tree. The Sami tree granted their wishes and protected their weapons during the one year of incognito living.

This one should be self-evident:

https://html.scribdassets.com/4dlzbhlv7k8uzivn/images/12-60dc36fc13.jpg

https://html.scribdassets.com/4dlzbhlv7k8uzivn/images/11-6d34fd4065.jpg

The one I notice is often a Six-spoked wheel, but, sometimes you find it with an oblate or fish-like shape:

https://www.harappa.com/sites/default/files/essays/parpola14.gif

In taking the "three-branch glyph" for "fig tree", Parpola (https://www.harappa.com/script/parpola11.html) says:

The Dravidian explanation of the Indian fig's name vata as 'rope-tree' makes it possible to find a Dravidian homophone eminently fitting the astral context assumed in the Indus texts where the 'fig tree' pictogram is followed by the 'fish' or 'two long vertical strokes' (Fig. 18).

In Dravidian, the word vata also means 'north', and in Old Tamil vata-meen is the name of the North star. This Dravidian homophony, linking vata 'Indian fig' and vata 'north', suggests an earlier Indian background also for the classification of trees found in Sanskrit texts which make the Indian fig the "tree of the northern direction".

Moreover, even as early as in the Rgveda (1,24,7), mention is made of an Indian fig whose roots are kept up in the middle of the sky by the god Varuna. Later cosmological descriptions seem to associate this often mentioned heavenly fig tree with the north star; for in reply to the question why do the stars remain in the sky and not fall down, the Puranas offer an explanation that reminds us of the Indian fig's aerial roots: it is maintained that the stars and planets are fixed to the north star with invisible ropes.

In the cited verse, Wilson misses it but adds:

baseless (firmament)

Griffiths:

Varuṇa, King, of hallowed might, sustaineth erect the Tree's stem in the baseless region.
Its rays, whose root is high above, stream downward. Deep may they sink within us, and be hidden.

Aurobindo:

The King Varuna having clear discernment holds in bottomlessness the high top of the Tree . {Its trunks} stand below; their root is above – let the intuitive perceptions be placed within us.

However, they do not seem to be responding to a "fig" because it is just a Tree:

vanasya

The Hymn is blatantly Gnostic (https://sri-aurobindo.co.in/workings/matherials/rigveda/01/01-024.htm), and invokes an individual:

To whom seized Shunahshepa invoked, that King Varuna freed us.

and it looks like it was composed on this person's behalf by Visvamitra:

śunaḥśepa ājīgartiḥ sa kṛtrimo vaiśvāmitro devarātaḥ

The verse does not explain it, you would have to take this Tree subjectively and go elsewhere to figure out the thing, and again yes that would be the Ashwattha of later doctrines.

IVC Seals perhaps had their "last phase" at Dilmun (https://www.cambridge.org/core/books/abs/seals-and-sealing-in-the-ancient-world/seals-and-sealing-technology-in-the-dilmun-culture-the-postharappan-life-of-the-indus-valley-sealing-tradition/A4CDBCB4BA20F1D5034A0BC052BA27BB).

So if we compress the foregoing information, the point is a type of ongoing handshake from around Balochistan. Already at the somewhat pre-historic beginning of the Age of Taurus ca. 4,000 B. C. E., it must have exported Lapis Lazuli as the Blue Heaven that permeates Egypt and Sumeria. Then again near the end of the age ca. 2,500 B. C. E., it paints a Bull motif, which is very nearly indistinguishable from everything in India ever since.

The IVC itself sounds exactly like a plan, like a blueprint, like wherever they went, they would simply repeat an existing design on a lesser or greater scale. It was mostly just bricklaying right? Although well-made with considerations for drainage and so on that are not apparent in most other settlements.

In terms of a Rice Culture, despite the name:

Japonica was domesticated in the Yangtze Valley 9–6,000 years ago

which somehow arrives in India into the Vindhya Ganga (https://www.wisdomlib.org/history/essay/settlement-in-early-historic-ganga-plain/d/doc370492.html):

Jhusi is found within a meander shows clear occupational deposit from Neolithic-Chalcolithic times.

Archeological site near the confluence of the Ganges and Yamuna rivers yielded a C14 dating of 7106 BCE to 7080 for its Neolithic levels.

A prominent lithic industry of weapons made of carnelian, chert, chalcedony and quartz came to notice. The weapons included variety of blades, scrapers, points, drill, lunate, trapeze and triangle and stone chips. Already in the Neolithic age they attained considerable sophistication and were good for their purposes. Presence of this industry meant presence of a professional class of stone carvers and these tools and weapons were used for hunting, defence and domestic use purpose. Cattle, sheep, goat, barasingha, boar were the animals domesticated by the Neolithic man and their flesh doubtlessly prime components of their diet. Aquatic creatures like fish and turtle and even birds satisfied their requirement of animal protein. The archaeo-botanical record found here is the most amazing feature of Jhusi. At different layers of the trench SF 7 and also at other trenches remains of an array of grains and crops were found, included rice, barley, wheat, dwarf wheat, millet, lentil, vetch, sesame, pea, grass pea, black gram, horse gram, grape, ber etc. The range of crops surely gives a picture of matured farming. At Jhusi a number of occupations already evolved. It implies a multifaceted growth of economy and a matured economic state, already achieved in the Neolithic phase.

Another very important aspect of the exploration at Jhusi it yielded a distinct Neolithic layer below the Chalcolithic one and thereby provides the missing link of Neolithic layer which was earlier thought to be absent here. Thus a continuous occupation from the Mesolithic times was proved.

For this reason Jhusi exemplifies the transformation from the earliest Mesolithic phase of a hunting, foraging, farming and rural life to the coming of an urban phenomenon in the area, typified by Vārāṇasī.

Known by a previous name (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jhusi):

Pratishthana was the most important locality of Prayag and it was founded by king Ila and was the capital of Pururavas and other kings...

Kamayani is written by Jai Shankar Prasad based on battle between Pururava and Ila and later they had fierce love, in the backdrop of Pratishthanpur.

That says it is the beginning of Rg Veda.

Listen to this about Varanasi (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Varanasi):

The Cakkavatti Sīhanāda Sutta text of Buddhism puts forth an idea stating that Varanasi will one day become the fabled kingdom of Ketumati in the time of Maitreya.

It most likely could be called a "new culture" of the Aryas:

Excavations in 2014 led to the discovery of artefacts dating back to 800 BCE. Further excavations at Aktha and Ramnagar, two sites in the vicinity of the city, unearthed artefacts dating back to 1800 BCE, supporting the view that the area was inhabited by this time.

What is Ramnagar, it is the seat of Kashi Naresh (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ramnagar,_Varanasi).

Later, the numerical majority of Riks was perhaps composed in Haryana.

Considering that a much older image of what may be the same mythology is in the Bulls picture, it may be the case that Arya culture means a specific practice within an existing folklore. What I seem to notice is that the Vedas do not "invent" anything, it sounds like they are speaking to an audience that would be familiar with most of it.

If something like Fire or the Sun is revered in many mythologies, here, I think they may ultimately getting at Soma Offering.

Bharatkalyan says the same thing about the Indus Seals, except it is through them being mostly metallurgical in nature.

So probably the main point of the Vedas is Soma Offering, which is present in Buddhism.

The unorthodox point of Atharva Veda is how to do this symbolicly, so it becomes "portable", which is the essence of Yoga and the Sramana or forest-dweller traditions. That would be a "threat" to a Priest Caste. However, there is nothing "anti-" about it, or attempt to suppress anyone's rights, except that would not tolerate birthright royal priveliges either. So it is against the "Caste" part for sure, but not against the priests or anything they are doing.

And I rushed to judgement on the Easter island translation from the back of the Moai. It could also say: Time is the whole - the essence of everything. Same characters are there for that as well, just read left to right instead of right to left. And doesn't that sound a bit more like what Atlanteans might say?

It may be.

Depending on whether intended as a nation that was lost, or, survivors of a time period in general. In one sense I think you could say "Atlantis" means everything up to the final adjustment that provided our modern coastlines after the Ice Age.

I would say that during the Ice Age, Central Asia was an inland paradise. This has to do with systems of scirocco winds and so forth which provided meltwater from the Himalayas. Since then it has been eaten away by the Gobi and Takla Makan deserts. This is what we are thinking is the origin of Kirats, Indians, and Ethiopians.

I think it may be Mandukya Upanishad that says "He who knows what Time dissolves in to, knows the Vedas".

It is one of the main points of Vedic Rudra, but, I am not sure about making a positive identification in the IVC Seals.

I was also a little sketchy about the "North Tree or Fish":

vaṭa (Ficus indica or banyan)

In associations of Trees (https://greenmesg.org/nature/benefits_of_trees/tradition.php):

Vata or Banyan: Known as the Tree of Immortality. The tree spreads itself through its pillar-like aerial roots which forms new trunks and makes the tree grow laterally.

Vata: Vata is associated with Meena (Pisces)

Long ago, the Pole Star was, of course, not Polaris, but we do find somewhat uniquely in Tamil:

North-vadakku-வடக்கு -Noun; Northern-vada-வட-Adjective.

In other words, vata or vada are about the same in multiple languages, none of which are "north", except for here.

As we see, the "North Fish" argument is combined with a "Vedic Fig", which is only a Tree. I am not sure I would take it conclusively. Whether or not this makes the "three-branch glyph" a fig or not, I have no idea.

Jim_Duyer

11th December 2023, 19:25

In Sumerian a legume is written as gu2 . gar4

However, individually, gu2 can mean "voice, cry, noise"
and gu4 can mean :to be early

An ancient voice? A cry from the days of old?

Do you know the meaning or rather I should ask, the significance of the bird symbols in Indus script?
The same birds are found as well in Gobekli Tepe and Easter Island. The "scientists" tell me it is a type of vulture. We find a lot of mentions of hyenas in Sumerian, Akkdaian, Babylonian and the Bible, as well as vultures and scorpions.
That one has me puzzled.

shaberon

12th December 2023, 07:50

Do you know the meaning or rather I should ask, the significance of the bird symbols in Indus script?

That is what got me into it in the first place.

There are not many examples:

http://www.bibleandscience.com/shop/images/IndusValleySealBirds.jpg

Tile:

https://store.barakatgallery.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/11/CB.2939b-400x400.jpg

This is what got me into trouble:

https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-NmcZ40MQdTA/WAxSZwcrN1I/AAAAAAAA8Kw/BZJQqoyotOcljLkA-WPU3VKJvkNquSmhACLcB/s1600/bogazh.jpg

Print of a seal: Two-headed eagle, a twisted cord below. From Bogazköy . 18th c.B.C. (Museum Ankara)

Bogazkoy seal (ca. 1800 BCE) showing a double-headed eagle is an extension of the Harappa tablet (ca. 2500 BCE) showing an eagle PLUS cobra hood PLUS yajña kuṇḍa. The theory of Gordon Whittaker for a Proto-IE substratum in Sumer is matched by the presence of Indus Script hypertexts in Harappa and in Bogazkoy. The decipherment of both seals point to association with wealth accounting of metalwork catalogues.

IVC:

https://sarasvati97.files.wordpress.com/2016/12/ahar12.jpg?w=450

Linguistic speculation on a Proto-Indo-European substratum in Ancient Near East (Sumeria) with reference to Gordon Whittaker's case for Euphratic
The Case for Euphratic

Gordon Whittaker
University of Göttingen, Germany (Bulletin of the Georgian National Academy of Sciencees, Vol. 2, No. 3, 2008)

ABSTRACT. It will be argued that the cuneiform writing system, the Sumerian and Akkadian lexicon, and the place names of Southern Mesopotamia preserve traces of an early Indo-European language, indeed the earliest by more than a millennium. Furthermore, this evidence is detailed and consistent enough to reconstruct a number of features of the proposed Indo-European language, Euphratic, and to sketch an outline of Euphratean cultural patterns.

So you see his thesis.

The blog site however just spams a bunch of Indian terminology with no real reasoning whatsoever.

So at first I am not understanding why the Bogazkoy seal reflects anything Indian. Why would it be an "extension" of the tablet?

Meluhha (https://www.meluhha.com/rv/) is a Rg Veda search tool.

Why, well, because of the idea of translation, any cuneiform devotee is supposed to be familiar with Meluhha (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meluhha):

Akkadian Empire cylinder seal with inscription: "Šu-ilišu, interpreter of the Meluhhan language":

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/0e/Akkadian_cylinder_seal_with_inscription_Shu-ilishu%2C_interpreter_of_the_Meluhhan_language%2C_Louvre_Museum_AO_22310.jpg/800px-Akkadian_cylinder_seal_with_inscription_Shu-ilishu%2C_interpreter_of_the_Meluhhan_language%2C_Louvre_Museum_AO_22310.jpg

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/8e/Meluhha-ki_on_a_cylinder_seal.jpg/393px-Meluhha-ki_on_a_cylinder_seal.jpg

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/21/Gudea_cylinder_A_%28IX_19%29_Magan_Meluha_with_transcription.jpg/757px-Gudea_cylinder_A_%28IX_19%29_Magan_Meluha_with_transcription.jpg

But that is supposed to be "unsolved"--where is it??

The concept being put forth is that in Sanskrit, it is called Mleccha (https://www.wisdomlib.org/definition/mleccha), which is exactly the word for "foreigner".

Implication is the IVC traders to Mesopotamia were not Vedic Aryas.

Of course, if it was me, would I cruise over to Sargon's court and say "Hi, I'm Foreigner"?

Or, would the Sanskrit word be derived off the proper name Meluhha?

Continuing from there, the thesis is metallurgical, specifically (http://bharatkalyan97.blogspot.com/2015/04/tracing-meluhha-in-rigveda-and.html):

Meluhha-Mleccha is traced as parole (vācas) of mleccha 'copper' workers.

Further along, I believe he takes Syena or Sena--Hawk as Iron, but this may be in a stand-or-fall position because it is part of an entire argument.

Here are a few extractions because the thing is gigantic and thorny:

The example of the usage of phrase ‘he ‘lavo is explained by Sayana as a pronunciation variant of: ‘he ‘rayo. i.e. ‘ho, the spiteful (enemies)!’ This grammatically correct phrase, the Asuras were unable to pronounce correctly, notes Sayana. The ŚB text and translation are cited in full because of the early evidence provided of the mleccha speech (exemplifying what is referred to Indian language studies as ‘ralayo rabhedhah’; the transformed use of ‘la’ where the syllable ‘ra’ was intended. This is the clearest evidence of a proto-Indian language which had dialectical variants in the usage by asuras and devas (i.e. those who do not perform yagna and those who perform yagna using vāk, speech.)

The meaning of Mleccha must have evolved from ‘self-designation’ > ‘name of foreigners’...Its introduction into Vedic must have begun in Meluh.h.a, in Baluchistan-Sindh, and have been transmitted for a long time in a non-literary level of IA as a nickname, before surfacing in E. North India in Middle/Late Vedic as Mleccha.

Parpola 1994: 174 has attempted a Dravidian explanation. He understands Meluh.h. a (var. Melah.h.a) as Drav. *Mēlakam [mēlaxam] `high country’ (= Baluchistan) (=Ta-milakam) and points to Neo-Assyr. Baluh.h.u `galbanum’, sinda `wood from Sindh’.

This seems to be his main point:

The evidence is remarkable that almost every single glyph or glyptic element of the Indus script can be read rebus using the repertoire of artisans (lapidaries working with precious shell, ivory, stones and terracotta, mine-workers, metal-smiths working with a variety of minerals, furnaces and other tools) who created the inscribed objects and used many of them to authenticate their trade transactions. Many of the inscribed objects are seen to be calling cards of the professional artisans, listing their professional skills and repertoire.

But his explanation jumps around all over the place:

Continued use of śankha (turbinella pyrum) bangles which tradition began 6500 BCE at Nausharo; Continued wearing of sindhur at the parting of the hair by married ladies as evidenced by two terracotta toys painted black on the hair, painted golden on the jewelry and painted red to show sindhur at the parting of the hair.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-7gMF1a3mGcY/T0XySPo1MtI/AAAAAAAARMQ/O_FdChtJpZk/s1600/sindhur.jpg

Nausharo: female figurines. Wearing sindhur at the parting of the hair. Hair painted black, ornaments golden and sindhur red. Period 1B, 2800 – 2600 BCE.

The Meluhhan being introduced carries a goat on his arm.

The Rigveda does not refer to the term mleccha. It uses the terms: asura, daasa. dasyu. Some people are referred to as uttering mrdra vac 'harsh tongue' or 'injurious speech' and not following the ācāra 'traditional practices'. Sayana explains the phrase as a reference to damaged speech organs. Jaimini's dhramasastra refers to mleccha as inhabitants of northern India.

Both asur and assur are metalworkers. Both are bhāratam janam mentioned in Rigveda (RV 3.53.1: viśvāmitrasya rakṣati brahmedam bhāratam janam). bharata = casting metals in moulds

I suggest that Mleccha/Meluhha are 'copper' workers, and are also referred to by the synonym phrase: bhāratam janam 'metalcaster folk' in the Rigveda. The word ayas 'metal alloy' mentioned in the Rigveda is also attested in Indus script corpora by the hieroglyph: ayo 'fish' Rebus: aya 'iron' (Gujarati); ayas 'alloy metal' (Rigveda).

On the banks of River Narmada are found speakers of Nahali, the so-called language isolate with words from Indo-Aryan, Dravidian and Munda – which together constitute the indic language substratum of a linguistic area, ca. 3300 BCE on the banks of Rivers Sarasvati and Sindhu – a region referred to as Meluhha in Mesopotamian cuneiform records; hence the language of the inscribed objects can rightly be called Meluhhan or Mleccha.

By Ur III Period, Meluhhan workers residing in Sumeria had Sumerian names, leading to a comment: ‘…three hundred years after the earliest textually documented contact between Meluhha and Mesopotamia, the references to a distinctly foreign commercial people have been replaced by an ethnic component of Ur III society’ This is an economic presence of Meluhhan traders maintaining their own village for a considerable span of time.

Mleccha were at no stage described in any text as people belonging to one ethnic, religious or linguistic group. This self-imposed restriction evidenced by all writers of the early Indian cultural tradition – Veda, Bauddha, Jaina alike – is of fundamental significance in understanding that mleccha constituted the core of the people on the banks of Rivers Sarasvati and Sindhu and were the principal architects, artisans, workers, and people, in general, of the Sarasvati-Sindhu Civilization throughout its stages of evolution through phases in modes of production – pastoral, agricultural, industrial – and interactions with neighbors, trading in surplus food products and artefacts generated and sharing cultural attributes/characteristics.

Gudea (ca. 2200 BCE) under the Lagash dynasty brought usu wood and gold dust and carnelian from Meluhha. Ibbi-Sin (2029-2006 BCE) under the third dynasty of Ur “imported from Meluhha copper, wood used for making chairs and dagger sheaths, mesu wood, and the multi-coloured birds of ivory.”

According to the inscription this statue was made by Gudea, ruler of Lagash (c. 2100 BCE) for the temple of the goddess Geshtinanna.

"The goddess Geshtinanna was known as “chief scribe” (Lambert 1990, 298– 299) and probably was a patron of scribes, as was Nidaba/Nisaba (Micha-lowski 2002). "

Hieroglyph of oveflowing pot in Ancient Near East connotes metal tools

Pipal and other leaves on this?

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-Ijp-k2OliSQ/Ub-0msBPCFI/AAAAAAAAalM/qmCmqyh_mp4/s320/m1656.jpg

The point he makes that is better than the "Hawk" is why RV lacks smelting (https://www.etribaltribune.com/index.php/volume-1/mv1i2/tribes-knew-iron-smelting):

The tribes like Asur, Agaria, Kol, Cheeroo and Kharia were some of the primitive iron smelters of central and eastern India. These tribal people live in the dense hill and plateau region close to the source of the raw materials. They smelted iron not only to fulfill their needs but also to meet the requirements of the neighbours.

Hard at work:

https://www.etribaltribune.com/images/V1I2/Smelting.jpg

It took the twentieth century to finally dissipate the viability of this way of making a living.

I was hoping to find a bunch of Birds that would say whatever I wanted them to. That has not happened yet.

shaberon

12th December 2023, 08:27

shaberon

12th December 2023, 11:25

I recommend Farmer's myth and magic study.

It puts together a few of the most common central elements, which turns out to be the Tree. Not necessarily a particular kind, but, at least, a tree. In the small seal posted above, it is "mirrored", the U-shape with two tufts sticking out.

The pdf linked above looks like it would be long but the font is gigantic so you can scroll through it.

Half of it is his own speculation, such as the Animals are Clans.

I don't think he noticed the pattern of the information he gave.

He said that most of the animal seals quit being used; some later seals have no picture. So the main theme faded away.

Then he mentions the Bird and how it shows up just in time for the tail end of the seals. And that it is Bactrian or Oxus.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/aa/BMAC.png

That makes it easy to see Bird Man and Priest King (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bactria%E2%80%93Margiana_Archaeological_Complex):

In this region, mud brick houses were first occupied during the Early Food-Producing Era, also known as Jeitun Neolithic, from c. 7200 to 4600 BC.

The civilization's urban phase or Integration Era, was dated in 2010 by Sandro Salvatori to c. 2400–1950 BC, but a different view is held by Nadezhda A. Duvoba and Bertille Lyonnet, c. 2250–1700 BC.

Then from twenty-seven individuals you definitely get a Genetic Drift ~2100-1500 BP (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8557446/):

...these individuals suggest diverse ancestries related to Iranian farmers, Anatolian farmers, and Steppe herders, with a small amount of West European Hunter Gatherer, East Asian, and South Asian Hunter Gatherer ancestry as well. Genetic affinity toward the Late Bronze Age Steppe herders and a higher Steppe-related ancestry than that found in BMAC populations suggest an increased mobility and interaction of individuals from the Northern Steppe in a Southward direction.

The genetics have their own brief page about not in India (https://www.indo-european-connection.com/science/bmac-bactria-margiana-archaeological-complex):

BMAC held extensive trade contacts with ancient Elam and the Indus Valley (Harappan) Civilisztion.

Very interesting seems the image of a hero with a head of an eagle, who holds two serpents in his hands or two animals (master of animals motif).

https://www.indo-european-connection.com/science/bmac-bactria-margiana-archaeological-complex-boar-two-headed-eagle.jpg

Parpola (https://poj.peeters-leuven.be/content.php?id=126&url=article) is right about this far:

The Dāsas, I argued, were the élite of the BMAC or ‘Bactria and Margiana Archaeological Complex’, who had come from the Eurasiatic steppes and taken over the rule...

and then he goes backwards.

The Aryas came from within India to combat these.

Relics show a flux if we contend that pre-IVC Nausharo symbolism is what is being used, and then, some sites are of what would appear to be enemy forces. And this would appear to malign the standing:

The relationship between Altyn-Depe and the Indus Valley seems to have been particularly strong. Among the finds there were two Harappan seals and ivory objects. The Harappan settlement of Shortugai in Northern Afghanistan on the banks of the Amu Darya probably served as a trading station.

Of course, there are no records about conquests.

Not independently. Most likely the Rig Veda derives from it.

Farmer suggests the "Bird glyph" is a late-period elite insignia.

So, no, the powerful one does not appear to be part of the main program, perhaps even replaced it. This *would* be approximately cotemporaneous with the Bogazkoy seal. It is possible the Aryas were again invited to scrap with similar forces in that direction.

Jim_Duyer

12th December 2023, 17:07

The images in the first post on birds are cranes or storks or similar. If you want to see more of that, and in the same time span, look east, to the Altair people. The Greeks first reported on this about 900 BC, that there was a group in that region that had communication with the northern arctic group that knew a cure for the plague. It's very common in esoteric writings from Altair region and central Russia as well.

This, is simply wrong:
Linguistic speculation on a Proto-Indo-European substratum in Ancient Near East (Sumeria) with reference to Gordon Whittaker's case for Euphratic
The Case for Euphratic

Gordon Whittaker
University of Göttingen, Germany (Bulletin of the Georgian National Academy of Sciencees, Vol. 2, No. 3, 2008)

ABSTRACT. It will be argued that the cuneiform writing system, the Sumerian and Akkadian lexicon, and the place names of Southern Mesopotamia preserve traces of an early Indo-European language, indeed the earliest by more than a millennium. Furthermore, this evidence is detailed and consistent enough to reconstruct a number of features of the proposed Indo-European language, Euphratic, and to sketch an outline of Euphratean cultural patterns.

Sumerian is a language isolate. And again, he is attempting to place Sumerian next to Akkadian and Babylonian, which peoples only inherited a great number of tablets and proceeded to rewrite them for political and religious purposes. That's when goddesses first became gods, and interest on loans became repayable only in silver.

His second error is that he does not know the origin or original homelands of the Sumerians. It was in Anatolia, nearby the Harri, the Hittites and the Hurrians, all neighbors of theirs.

I usually respect the Germanic scholars as being quite specific and intelligent to a degree, much more so than most of the European scholars I am sorry to say. But when they go off the range, they go running. And he seems to be an example. They want, no they NEED to have Aryan mixed in somehow. They don't care so much for the Indo part, they just can't stand to see what they consider Arabic and then associate with Islamic peoples being smarter than Europeans in that early date of history. What they don't consider is that the Sumerians have no relation to either Arabic peoples nor Islam - they were originally form the area between the Baltic and the Caucasus - and so they have a closer connection to European stock than most would know. I'm going to publish the evidence of the follow, just as fast as I can:
1) the homelands of the Sumerians.
2) that they wrote in a proto form as early as 11,000 BC. Not that they invented it, but they wrote in it. I can't prove the invention part, other than the fact that they surely invented the classical cuneiform that we are most familiar wtih.
3) the location of Eden, and a map proving that it was drawn pre-flood, with backup by teams of geologists.
4) the connections between these various groups and the true origins of what would become the Hebrew people.

And more, of course, but that alone will kill his Aryan ideas. Which I consider racist, by the way. If you can not embrace and salute the accomplishments of the brown, black and other colors of the historical period, you should not be sitting in a Professors chair nor a scholars desk. We really need to get past all that nonsense.

The birds seem to be vultures. I know the significance of the scorpions - it's actually a description of a falling comet or meteorite based on the many clear descriptions of speed with striking. And the hyenas, besides representing politicians, are those paid by the powers that ruled to do their dirty work - cleaning up the awakened ones and stamping out the spread of knowledge. It's the vultures that I need to look at further.

Jim_Duyer

12th December 2023, 17:12

Just a bit more continuing from previous, here is a note from a notary (https://abclegaldocs.com/blog-Colorado-Notary/indus-valley-civilization-writing-seals/):

One Indus seal depicts a trade ship using land-seeking birds. If the ship got lost at sea and became disoriented, with no land in sight, the birds were released and they would fly toward land. The ship would follow the birds.

https://abclegaldocs.com/blog-Colorado-Notary/wp-content/uploads/Indus-seal-boat-with-land-seeking-birds.jpg

Here are a couple more studies I have not raked through yet. They may have a few good examples. One is for a "kika" or "chicken" glyph for Kikata (https://www.academia.edu/34563005/THE_BIRD_SYMBOLS_OF_THE_HARAPPAN_SEALS_KIKATA_GAUTAMA_BUDDHA_AND_PRAMAGANDA).

Steve Farmer believes the IVC Seals are Mythological (https://safarmer.com/indus/Harvard2004.pdf), that their subject is mainly Agricultural Magic, finds the Eagle as a late addition before the end of their use, and also notices the Tree giving it a specific glyph. The "Eagle" as pictured previously is very nearly Iranian/Bactrian.

He strongly believes the glyphs are not a "script" of syllables or phonemes, but probably *are* ideas and compound ideas.

#####################################
The lines are to keep my reply to this post separate from my other replies. A button that says "Please do not add this to my last reply would be helpful. hint hint.

One Indus seal depicts a trade ship using land-seeking birds. If the ship got lost at sea and became disoriented, with no land in sight, the birds were released and they would fly toward land. The ship would follow the birds.

https://abclegaldocs.com/blog-Colora...king-birds.jpg

And my answer is - I'll let you know today - because, by coincidence this image is the same one that I chose to work on for today.

UPDATE - This cold has got me working Goofy. I already did that one on Monday.
It's the one that translates as:
The personage known as the Mother Goddess, the foundation and the whole of everything, the Mother Goddess who gives birth to the three: trees, flowers and fruits.
And I replied to one of your earlier quotes with the mention of the three, but I forgot to mention that this is very similar to the engravings on the back of the statues on Easter Island, which also refer to the Mother Goddess, and to her being the whole of the entirety. Along with the idea that time is the foundation of everything. So it's a different one today. Sorry for the confusion.

#####################################

Jim_Duyer

12th December 2023, 17:28

I'm going to take three days off starting now - I want to publish a short book to win my bet, and I wrote most of it yesterday and I need to put it into ebook order. It's about the true meaning of the 666 Mark, the Beast from Revelation. I discovered it when I found that the early Catholics (some of them, not all certainly) had planted fake results and got it into their version of an early Old Testament. But the implications for today are something that just needs to get out right away - in a few days in fact. And boy, are you all going to be surprised. Then back to the main ones. Jim

Jim_Duyer

12th December 2023, 22:43

While putting together my short book for next week, I ran across these bits of research that tie in to what I am working to get out and our story of the Hindu-Sumerian-Easter Island Mother of Earth, and their written language similarities.

The Tao Te Ching is a Chinese classic text and foundational work of Taoism written around 600 BC and traditionally credited to the sage Laozi.

Victor H. Mair thought that Taoists in the early history of the faith had positive "cultural relations" with Hindu groups and that the Tao Te Ching was written in reaction to Indian philosophy and that the author(s) viewed Brahman as being the same as Tao.

“…the great Chinese Philosopher Lao Tzu talked frequently of “Ancient Masters” and their profound wisdom. Lao Tzu was born more than two and a half thousand years ago in 604 B.C. He wrote the famous book, the Tao Te Ching, probably still the most popular book ever written in Chinese. When he finally left China, near the close of his very long life, he journeyed to the west, to the legendary land of Hsi Wang Mu. According to the ancient Chinese, this was the headquarters of the “Ancient Ones.” This word Hsi Wang Mu, or Xiwangmu, is translated as the Queen of the West.

“…Lao Tzu wasn’t the only Chinese to go off in search of the Abode of the Immortals. The Chou dynasty emperor “Mu” (strange coincidence, eh?) journeyed to the land of the Kun Lun mountains… the “Mount Olympus” of the Central Asia and ancient China, in order to contact the “mysterious, profound and wise Ancient Masters.”

So here we have a connection between the Queen Mother of the West, in Chinese fashion, the Taoists, the Hindu, and of course the Sumerians and the Easter Islanders. The Hindu, Sumerians and Easter Islanders called her the Mother of Earth.

Notice that the Chou emperor was named MU, as in Lemuria, and that he went looking for the Abode of the Immortals in the Kun Lun mountains? Because the Kun Lun mouintain area is where the Dropa disks were uncovered, from an ancient UFO that crashed some 10,000 years ago.

shaberon

13th December 2023, 11:40

I usually respect the Germanic scholars as being quite specific and intelligent to a degree, much more so than most of the European scholars I am sorry to say. But when they go off the range, they go running. And he seems to be an example. They want, no they NEED to have Aryan mixed in somehow. They don't care so much for the Indo part, they just can't stand to see what they consider Arabic and then associate with Islamic peoples being smarter than Europeans in that early date of history.

Good, ok, just say no to Euphratic.

That is exactly what I want to do is hold up specific examples and show them to be wrong.

This is the whole backstory with Witzel, Parpola, and so on...they provide correct information, in terms of references, and then somehow it all winds up working for that bias.

The next intellectual thing to quell is if you look at RV 6.27 where it has "Hariyupiya" there is absolutely no reason to take that as Harappa. Even an AI (https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-etymology-of-the-Indus-Valley-town-of-Harappa) can tell us the name "Harappa" has no particular origin because it is the modern Pakistani term for the area.

This is a type of counter-claim:

Agappa in Tamil means a fortified city with moat. Harappa is the derived form of Agappa.

It's just a statement. When you give me an Akkadian seal which can be read as "Meluhha" being some neighbor, then, it may be plausible this becomes "Mleccha" in Sanskrit.

For all we know, Harappa called itself "Meluhha".

And guess what...that point you just made permeates this whole thing.

So, if I am going to refute some arbitrary decision about "Hariyupiya", I am not going to leave it standing defenseless, why, because it is a unique term, and, secondly, when they give us the source, then we can say it is in the First Book. The Books or Mandalas of Rg Veda are not in chronological order, although Mandala X is actually last. It begins with Six, then Seven.

The hymn is mentioned among points about science (https://omscience.wordpress.com/2017/01/03/science-in-hinduism-part-i/):

Rig Veda (6.27.4) is absolutely knowledgeable, it talks about Sound Waves which lord Indra used against a Demon.

Purport- In modern science usually Galileo is given the credit of dealing with sound waves first where else Vedas has revealed it long before.

and it is even on behalf of an Emperor (https://historum.com/t/urban-elements-in-rig-veda.78214/):

Why Aryans could not be nomades is because there has been a defined system of making and grading of Kings ruling in a geographical area unlike the nomades.

There were various grades of kings for instance - Chayamana ( Rigveda 6.27.8) was the "Samrat" or the "Emperor" whereas Chitra was a Rajan, the bigger than others in a region, Nomadic elements are overruled.

It is part of the overall order of Battle (https://www.sanskritimagazine.com/dasarajna-battle-ten-kings-rig-veda/):

AbhyAvartin CAyamAna is an Anu king, and he clearly appears as a hero in VI.27. However, it is equally clear that this is only because he is an ally of the Bharata king SRnjaya: his descendant Kavi CAyamAna who appears (though not in Griffith’s translation) in VII.18.9 as an enemy of the Bharata king SudAs, is referred to in hostile terms. In RV VII.18.8, he was killed while fleeing from battle. He was an enemy of Sudas and son of Cayamana. He was probably brother of Abhyavartin Cayamana who is mentioned as the conqueror of the Vrcicantas under the leadership of Varasikha (RV VII.27.5,8).

Sudas was well known for having two sage advisors, Vasishtha and Visvamitra. He was an author of Hymn 133 of the 10th book of the Rg Veda in addition to being a great warrior and king. He gave much to his priest, Vashistha (200 cows, 2 chariots, 4 horses with gold trappings,…).

Here is a difference of opinion about the nearby River Yavyavati (https://www.jatland.com/home/Yavyavati):

Witzel (1995) identifies it with the Zhob River in northern Baluchistan,

Talageri (2000) suggests that it is identical to the Drsadvati.

Oh.

Well then, here is an argument with an opponent involving the verse from Talageri (https://talageri.blogspot.com/2022/03/a-review-of-rivers-of-rgveda-by-jijith.html):

"Bharadvāja mentions Iḷaspada in the hymn 6.1 and subsequently the two rivers Hariyūpīyā and Yavyāvatī in the hymn 6.27. The mention of Hariyūpīyā and Yavyāvatī comes before the mention of even Gaṅgā to the further east in the hymn 6.45" (p.124).

Using the peculiar kind of logic that he uses elsewhere in the book, Jijith seems to treat the hymn numbers within Book 6 as pointers to the chronological order of the hymns, and therefore (although there is no historical context involved) he finds that rivers/places named in hymn 1 were known earlier to the Bharadvājas (or the Vedic people themselves) than rivers/places named in hymn 27, and rivers/places named in hymn 27 were known earlier than rivers/places named in hymn 45! So even the Ganga, he seems to imply, was probably unknown to the composers of hymns VI.1 and VI.27!

[And no, this is not the kind of geographical logic used by me in the OIT case].

See also his interpretation of III.58.6, next, which mentions the Jahnāvī (the Ganga), which he again interprets as a west-to-east movement towards the Ganga:

"Talageri (2000) uses the second interpretation to conclude that the ancient home of Aśvins is at Jahnāvī (Gaṅgā) . I have a different identification for the ancient home of Aśvin based on the first interpretation. Based on our assumption that Aśvins are coming along a land trade route from the west to the eastern Terminus at Gaṅgā, their ancient home can be in the west" (p.130).

He hastens to add: "But when we say west, we need not immediately think about Afghanistan or beyond"!

In my books, I have pointed out that the oldest book of the Rigveda already treats the Ganga (representing the east to them from the area of the Sarasvati) as the ancient home of the Gods. Even taken from a nature-myth point of view, the Aśvins are supposed to ascend into the sky from the east with the Goddess of the Dawn, Uṣas. But to Jijith, the east, by any interpretation, should come chronologically after the Sarasvati!

So...he is also arguing with Indians who believe in the foreign stuff. His position is called OIT (out of India theory) meaning the Aryas simply already were there, they are not foreigners.

The Hymn itself is amazing. It begins:

WHAT deed hath Indra done in the wild transport, in quaffing or in friendship with, the Soma?
What joys have men of ancient times or recent obtained within the chamber of libation?

Relative to the epoch of the battle, men of ancient times already succeeded in drinking Soma with Indra. That is what it says. Nothing has an "origin", it only has "transmission lines" which the Anu and some other tribes joined.

Next we find that an individual v or u is:

oṃ

A Vedic benediction of Indra:

Maghavan

His Sound or "power of thunder" in Verse Four:

vájrasya

For his deeds, it does not sound like he is fighting Hariyupians, rather, it sounds like a territory that has been invaded:

In aid of Abhyavartin Cayamana, Indra destroyed the seed of Varasikha.
At Hariyupiya he smote the vanguard of the Vrcivans, and the rear fled frighted.

concluding with a couple of important esoteric statements:

He, whose two red Steers, seeking goodly pasture, plying their tongues move on' twixt earth and heaven,

and:

This guerdon of Prthu's seed is hard to win from others.

because in the original line:

pārthavānām

will be "translated" by someone as "Parthian".

At that instant, you exit the Veda.

Prthu is another example like "Ayu" that are said to be the ancestors of the known, mortal, kings, except they seem to be personifications of forces of nature, like Indra and Agni.

Fortunately the main Harappa (https://www.harappa.com/har/aryan-invasion.html) site denies any connection of the name and has never seen evidence of any battle near the Harappa site itself.

Because the correct Vedic name is "Hariyupiya" no matter what place it was in, Tamil is the same on Yupa (https://www.speakingtree.in/blog/rig-vedic-hariyupia-and-indus-valley-harappa-rig-veda-mystery-7):

2000 year old Sangam literature mentioned Yupa with the same Sanskrit word “YUPA” in at least 4 places.

Being the Post as shown on the reverse of a Gupta coin:

https://tamilandvedas.files.wordpress.com/2014/10/samudra-4787v-280-50.jpg?w=600

That is a Chowri girl, or Chauri, i. e. Fly-Whisk.

The context for "Hari":

A horse of the sun (properly, his rays), Chr. 287, 8 = [Rigveda.] i. 50, 8. 3.

Harit (हरित्):—[from hari] mfn. fawn-coloured, pale yellow, yellowish, pale red, fallow, bay, tawny, greenish, [Ṛg-veda]

a horse of the Sun (harito harīṃś ca, acc [plural] ‘the horses of the Sun and of Indra’), [Śakuntalā]

a female horse of a reddish colour, a bay mare (applied to the horses of Soma, Indra, and Tvaṣṭṛ, and [especially] to sapta-haritaḥ, ‘the 7 horses of the Sun’, thought to symbolize the days of the week), [Ṛg-veda; Taittirīya-saṃhitā; Mahābhārata; Rāmāyaṇa; Bhāgavata-purāṇa]

The pantheon unfolds for the Mystery of Soma (https://hinduism.stackexchange.com/questions/48715/proof-of-vedic-or-indic-origin-of-vaishnavism-monotheistic-supremacy-of-vishnu).

Rigveda 6.17.11:

In the very same translation quoted, the verse talks about a certain ‘he’ who has cooked buffaloes. That same ‘he’ together with Pushan and Vishnu poured 3 vessels of Soma for Indra. Thus this ‘he’ cannot be Vishnu who cooks. If one sees the previous verses, it’s amply clear that this ‘he’ is Tvashta (explained by Sayanacharya as devatas architect). Although little confusing, Sayana too says, ‘may he cook’ in singular form (पचेत्) and hence can’t refer to all 3 but only Tvashta. There’s no cooking of beef by Vishnu. Vishnu pusha Tvashta only pour the soma. Though little out of order, he says these 3 fill 3 vessels of Soma.

Why would the Hari or Rays be Indra's Horses, well, solar rays stir wind, clouds, and rain. He doesn't have to be the source of them.

See also 3.44.1 (https://www.wisdomlib.org/hinduism/book/rig-veda-english-translation/d/doc832010.html).

The linked article is expressing a dual Vishnu, transcendental and manifesting, as being an explanation traceable through the Hymns.

The rescued country in Vedic Sanskrit appears to be Solar Rays Post.

That could have various meanings, and I don't know where it is, but nothing says "Harappa" was even the period-appropriate name of that place.

Birds are also not substantial in the Rg Veda. Talageri's summary becomes Dharmapedia's Flora and Fauna (https://en.dharmapedia.net/wiki/Flora_and_Fauna_of_the_Rig_Veda) which also informs us:

At this time (c. 2150-2000 BC) ivory from Meluḥḥa is mentioned only in connection with ivory bird figurines (Oppenheim 1954:11, 15n, 24)

The main bird is Peacock and:

...there is not a single cultural element of Central Asian, Eastern European or Caucasian origin in the archaeological culture of the Mittanian area [….] The veneration of the peacock could not have been brought by the Mittanians from Central Asia or South-Eastern Europe; they must have taken it from the East, as peacocks are the type-bird of India" (BRENTJES 1981:146).

And no less than in Hungarian Folk Music:

Some Indian song was the likely common origin of both folksong 95 and folksong D because of the Hindu mythological elements found in the latter two. In particular, a possible origin may be the Vedic hymn of the Vena bird (Rig Veda book 10, hymn 123).

The same Flora and Fauna is published in book form by Lal 2005 (https://www.vedicbooks.net/homeland-aryans-evidence-rigvedic-flora-fauna-archaeology-p-13816.html) with the considerations:

For well over seven decades two theories have been blinding our vision of India's past, viz. that:

There was an 'Aryan Invasion' of India
The invaders destroyed the Harappan civilization which became extinct.

When it comes to the Vulture, this is easy for me as a Buddhist because we say When the Blessed One was dwelling at Rajgriha on Vulture Peak Mountain:

Gridhrakuta

and, it turns out the word, Grdhra, at least, is Vedic, although in a few cases the translation is problematic as in IX.9.57 (https://www.wisdomlib.org/hinduism/book/rig-veda-english-translation/d/doc838306.html) should be present with Buffalo.

It is obvious in VII.104.22 (https://www.wisdomlib.org/hinduism/book/rig-veda-english-translation/d/doc835461.html) in a list of guises such as owl.

It, perhaps, has a "signature line" or a particular Hymn where it is observed in I.118.4 (https://www.wisdomlib.org/hinduism/book/rig-veda-english-translation/d/doc830308.html) by Kaksivan:

ā vāṃ śyenāso aśvinā vahantu rathe yuktāsa āśavaḥ pataṃgāḥ | ye apturo divyāso na gṛdhrā abhi prayo nāsatyā vahanti ||

“May your quick-moving, prancing steeds, rapid as hawks, yoked to your car, bear you, Aśvins, (hither), who, quick as (falling) water, like vultures flying through the air, convey you, Nāsatyas, to the sacrifice.”

Kakṣīvān (कक्षीवान्).—This was a Ṛṣi well praised in the Ṛgveda. Birth. King Kaliṅga did not have children for a long time. The King, therefore requested the sage Dīrghatamas (Gautama) to get a son for him by his queen. The sage consented. But the queen did not like to sleep with the old sage. She therefore requested her servant maid, Uśī, to lie with the sage. Kakṣīvān was the son born to Dīrghatamas of Uśī. (Sūkta 125, Anuvāka 18, Maṇḍala 1, Ṛgveda).

To test the strength of Kakṣīvān he was once given a hundred pitchers of liquor by the Aśvins. (Sūkta 116, Anuvāka 17, Maṇḍala 1, Ṛgveda).

Kakṣīvān who was returning home from the āśrama of the preceptor after completiṇg his education spent one night at a place on the way. In the morning when he awoke he saw Svanaya son of King Bhāvayavya before him. The beautiful boy had strayed to that place by accident while playing with his friends nearby. Kakṣīvān was attracted by the enchanting features of the boy and decided to make him the husband of his daughter. Svanaya on knowing the details regarding Kakṣīvān took him to his father’s palace and the King received the sage with respect and gave him many presents. (Sūkta 125, Anuvāka 18, Maṇḍala 1, Ṛgveda).

Yes, my son is...my friend's kid with the maid, and, he's pretty good at making regal alliances too...

I mean, I'd give that a 99-to-1 over an "Aryan Invasion" any day...

From that view, the Horses of the Aswins are like Vultures.

To us the name is simple (https://dhammawiki.com/index.php?title=Vulture_Peak):

According to the commentaries this place got its name because vultures used to perch on some of the peak’s rocks.

Although Buddhist history is rather unusual:

According to the Pali commentaries during the time of Kassapa Buddha a boar rooting around under the rock made a small cavity which was later enlarged when monsoon rains washed more earth away. Later, an ascetic discovered the cave and, deciding it would be a good place to live in, built a wall around it, furnished it with a couch, and ‘made it as clean as a golden bowl polished with sand.’

Climbing further, the pilgrim can see the ruins of stupas and the foundations of a small temple built on the summit in ancient times.

Here the Buddha delivered the Surangama Sutra.

Otherwise a Vulture is insignificant to iconography that I am aware of.

Not because it is unknown.

I noticed you used the phrase "the three", which is exactly what Farmer does. He can't find most numbers. They appear to be perhaps time-related groups, "the three", "the seven", and "the twelve" mainly.

My intuition is yes, it is a "science of time cycles", but not Zodiacal Ages or Puranic Yugas.

Indian mythology is very palpable. So the "fast" unit like the second hand on a clock is the Moon, changing on a daily basis. In common experience, the largest unit of time most people can sense is about a decade, or, twelve years, which is the transit of Jupiter, like the slow or hour hand.

Then if you take a "minute" to be Venus, which has a transit of five years, then 5 x 12 = the Samvatsara, or cycle of sixty years, approximately a lifespan. *This* is what I would suggest is what is equivalent to the Mid-Eastern Debt Jubilee, which was set at 2x 2 x 2 x 2 x 2 x 2 = 64 years. If those cycles are devoid of justice, then, the big clock should reset it automatically. Otherwise there will be a revolution.

In India, to have his *own* Samvatsara, the king would have to offer it voluntarily.

The essence of the Vedas is Agni is the Year. The Vedic Yuga is an interesting cycle of only Five Years, being Agni, Sun, Moon, Wind, and Rudra.

What appears to be a very bizarre manipulation of "grdhra = vulture" is in I.190.7 (https://www.wisdomlib.org/hinduism/book/rig-veda-english-translation/d/doc831043.html) where Brhaspati = Jupiter:

saṃ yaṃ stubho 'vanayo na yanti samudraṃ na sravato rodhacakrāḥ | sa vidvām̐ ubhayaṃ caṣṭe antar bṛhaspatis tara āpaś ca gṛdhraḥ ||

“To whom praises (necessarily) proceed, as men (assemble round a master); as rivers, rolling between their banks, flow to the ocean; that wise Bṛhaspati greedy (after rain), and stationary in the midst, contemplates both (the ferry and the water).”

Commentary by Sāyaṇa: Ṛgveda-bhāṣya

That wise Bṛhaspati: ubhayam caṣṭe antam. bṛhaspatistara āpaśca gṛdhraḥ: gṛdhraḥ = vṛṣṭim ākāṅkṣamāṇa, desirous of rain;

Taras = taraṇam jalābhivṛddhim, crossing, or a ferry or increase of water;

Apaḥ =water; ubhayam antar madhye sthitvā, having stood in the middle; caṣṭe paśyate,he sees; or karoti, he does; identifying Bṛhaspati with Indra, ubhayam, both, may denote heaven and earth, between which in the antarikṣa or firmament, the region of the rain, is his proper station

Ṛṣi (sage/seer): agastyo maitrāvaruṇiḥ [agastya maitrāvaruṇi];
Devatā (deity/subject-matter): bṛhaspatiḥ ;

In the other verse, Vultures were almost identified as Rain. And so the metaphor he is making is possible. The word did not end on the long a as it did previously, which can shift the grammar into something like "vulturine", which has its own meaning.

What he has not mentioned is that Goddess Tara is the Wife of Jupiter.

The name of the composer is Mitra Varuna, which in itself was a "middle ground" when it could be said that camps of either name separated.

These people are not thinking about Astrology for a compound that would normally be interpreted "Brihaspati and Tara" and can only define itself circularly:

tṝ Quick, energetic.

E. tṝ to go, to go quick

Taras (तरस्).—i. e. tṛ10 + as, 1. Speed (ved.).

a ferry, [Ṛg-veda i, 190, 7]

A float, raft; बृहस्पतिस्तर आपश्च गृध्रः (bṛhaspatistara āpaśca gṛdhraḥ)

The compound is so obscure, the original publisher says the passage is very obscure (https://books.google.com/books?id=Dc4oAAAAYAAJ&lpg=PA201&ots=hCz3WKtjGw&dq=brihaspatistara&pg=PA201#v=onepage&q&f=false) followed by a singular Poison Hymn.

In the same etymology, "horse" does not mean "horse" when using As Va "go quickly".

Tara as "the ferry" "goes quickly" as suggested by the passage.

Secondarily, or later, then yes the Vulture is prominent in Ramayana (https://www.wisdomlib.org/hinduism/essay/animal-kingdom-tiryak-in-epics/d/doc825694.html):

In the Ramayana, the Grdhra is said to be the son of Shyeni.

Sampati says,

Vultures can always see to a distance of more than one hundred yojanas.

Once Sampāti and his younger brother Jaṭāyu flew to the Sun. To protect his younger brother Jaṭāyu who had neared the Sun, Sampāti opened his wings which were burnt and he fell on the shore of the salt sea. At this time an army of the monkeys, with Hanūmān at their head came there, in search of Sītā. Sampāti gave them directions of the path they were to follow.

There is such a thing as a Sanskrit Vulture, that is what I know of it, and I am not sure it is in IVC Seals.

Farmer suggests "the Three" are often found with seeds, plants, plowed fields.

His remark is that the glyphs do not really evolve, it is the same, rather limited, set that does not really change for about seven hundred years across a fairly wide distance.

Twenty glyphs comprise 50% of the thousands of findings.

And so the example near the top of the study has what I believe is seventeen unique characters, you are looking at something like forty per cent of the entire corpus.

As a technical remark he shows what I thought was a Goat (wavy horns) with a Branch tail and a Sabari with a Branch Crown.

For the Six-spoked Wheel, there is a cluster of them over a Unicorn, the inner gate of Dholavira, and a big one with the hero between two tigers.

There is a "ritual hut" with a "Tree" and two Disks.

However, there is a similar wheel but using a four-armed cross with a "Goat" which I thought was an Antelope (curved horns).

The more common one with six arms seems to have an affinity for the Tiger. Then when you get to the Cross-legged Man coming out of the Tree over the Tiger, it is nearly freakish.

Tiger is one of the few if not only carnivores depicted.

I cannot say if that is the only such pattern retrievable from the images, but it looks like the users of them were very articulate.

In the practices that I am aware of, girl with a Peacock Plume would be meaningful and if so the one with a Branch would have a piece of a medicinal tree. Along with a Yupa.

He even suggests the Unicorn's "object" might be a Tree because sometimes it has Fruit.

Jim_Duyer

13th December 2023, 15:36

lucine

14th December 2023, 23:45

shaberon

15th December 2023, 09:23

I had the strong impression that the Norse Aesir are the ones often referred to as the demons and the bad guys in the Vedas. I don't know all the details anymore, also lost a file where I made some summaries but that was my conclusion given, to be fair, limited research.
When reading the Vedas between the lines, it seemed like the priests and gods of the hindus were up to bad things, the "demons" were trying to stop them from doing them or succeeding in them. The "demons" were other god-like beings within a similar, slightly lower maybe, level and types of abilities.

The Vedic "demon" in the sense of a magical adversary is Drought (Vrtra).

I would think the Norse myths are to a fair extent telling the same thing as Indo-Greek. For the first thing the Days of the Week are the same across all of these cultures, and, that is not a modern implementation, it is the ancient design, "the Seven".

None of them have the same "calendar", i. e., solar, lunar, lunisolar, and almost everything is recorded in terms of King's Years. No method of arranging months and dates is the same, but the days of the week are the same everywhere.

In the actual sense of the word, yes, Vedic and later history is tales of Good and Bad Kings, moreover the same is true of the Sage Clans or Priests, and eventually you get that hybrid of Priest Caste.

In terms of memory, the worse the Bad King the more important they are.

The Rg Veda is not like most scriptures, it does not really have an eschatological good vs. evil.

I am not sure how it could concern the Aesir.

Among one of the more primal "Indo-European" languages, we can find continuity from Indian Aswins to Lithuanian Asvieniai (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A%C5%A1vieniai):

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/64/Nida_ThomasMann_cottage.jpg/800px-Nida_ThomasMann_cottage.jpg

That is probably the closest thing to an "external link" I know of.

From what appears to be a starting point, IVC appears to have used symbolism from Nausharo (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nausharo):

Nausharo, 6 km from Mehrgarh

It was occupied between 3000 and 2550 BC and again between 2550 and 1900 BC.

Somewhere between 2600 BC and 2000 BC (Mehrgarh Period VII), Mehrgarh seems to have been largely abandoned in favor of Nausharo, which became fortified and quite large. Historian Michael Wood suggests this abandonment took place around 2500 BCE.

The script is the same as this ca. 3,000 B. C. E. Mehrgarh Wheel (https://www.harappa.com/blog/mehrgarh-wheel-amulet-analysis-yields-many-secrets):

https://www.harappa.com/sites/default/files/styles/galleryformatter_slide/public/amulet.jpg

This study by Ipanema, the European center for the study of ancient materials, believes that this is the oldest known example of the "lost wax" casting technique, one of the most important innovations in the history of metallurgy.

More tellingly, we found at Nausharo a distinctive Indian woman's vermillion mark of Sindoor (https://www.sanskritimagazine.com/sindoor-history-significance/):

Female figurines excavated at Mehrgarh, Baluchistan, show that sindoor was applied to the partition of women’s hair even in early Harappan times.

This, I would suggest, lines up with the "western gate" of IVC. What that means is the trade route goes south to the Makran coast. There was no archaic overland route through Iran. A substantial flow of commerce went out this "edge" in Pakistan by 3,000 B. C. E. if not before, as per the boat shown with the scouting birds.

Most of the Balochi--Makran route is very desolate. Not much reason you would do it for fun.

Twenty some-odd miles inland from the coastline is the shrine of Hingula Mata, who sheltered Warriors during the time of Parasu Rama, and Lord Rama himself. That qualifies her as at least existing during the Rg Vedic era, and we may note that to this day the site is considered holy by Hindus and Muslims alike.

Moreover, she has everything to do with the transport of whatever may have been the fading civilizations into Gujarat, India, and was the source for the fire of the Mahaprasad or Cooking feast in Orissa around the year 500, which is continuous.

Her lair is remote and difficult to access and is located near a Mud Volcano (https://www.chamundaswamiji.com/hinglaj-mata-balochistan/).

Moreover, she will segue' to another response because:

Hiṅgūla (हिङ्गूल, “cinnabar”)

Cinnabar, or cinnabarite, is the bright scarlet to brick-red form of mercury(II) sulfide. It is the most common source ore for refining elemental mercury and is the historic source for the brilliant red or scarlet pigment termed vermilion...

And so this has a huge amount to do with all sorts of international commerce as well. Eventually, it is long-life elixirs which had side effects, but yes, vermillion and mercury sourcing and use are indeterminately old.

The symbolism of the weapon, Indra's Bow, is a Rainbow. Indra wields the spectrum of light in that sense.

One suggested reason that the Vedas appear to be male focused is because it is sensitive to the issue of what might be called "easily-damaged male DNA". It is thought the original "lineage" rules were not "castes", but, rather, a minimum six or seven degrees of separation to prevent "inbreeding". Secondly, the Plasma study suggests that DNA probably is a resonator, it will be affected by whatever fields are around it. And so the Vedic mantras have the effect to strengthen and preserve it.

Remember, the mantras were not "authored", only transmitted.

I have no knowledge of anything like this being weaponizable at all.

Everything, rather, should be taken as akin to healing and harmony.

The medieval manuals which may feature things like hexes and material gain are full of blinds, in other words, if you do not have pure intent then you are, in a sense, led astray by things the others of us would mostly ignore.

The two individuals who are perhaps "non-Vedic" yet allocated to the time of Parasu Rama are Hingula Mata and Dattatreya, the Lord of Yoga. Again, this must be the "same time" as at least part of IVC, and we just cannot concretely say to what extent it may have been the same people. However it is not distinguishable from Nausharo.

Jim_Duyer

15th December 2023, 19:48

Your knowledge is, as usual, comprehensive if not astounding. But this part is a gem hidden inside the whole:
Rig Veda (6.27.4) is absolutely knowledgeable, it talks about Sound Waves which lord Indra used against a Demon.

But recall, please, that frequencies of sound are brothers of frequencies of light. And light is one of the tools used by ancient man to annoy, if not outright damage, the "visitors" that controlled mankind from Anatolia to India.

Is it possible that you are reading too much into this particular part? Sound and light can have completely different effects, even more so while going by as broad strokes as "sound" and "light".
The connection you make sounds like a total reach. And I say that respectfully, I really appreciate your overall work and can't wait for the books.

One more thing, I looked a bit into the Vedas and how they connect to Norse Mythology. I had the strong impression that the Norse Aesir are the ones often referred to as the demons and the bad guys in the Vedas. I don't know all the details anymore, also lost a file where I made some summaries but that was my conclusion given, to be fair, limited research.
When reading the Vedas between the lines, it seemed like the priests and gods of the hindus were up to bad things, the "demons" were trying to stop them from doing them or succeeding in them. The "demons" were other god-like beings within a similar, slightly lower maybe, level and types of abilities.

Yes it is possibly a stretch to link the Vedic sounds with other cultures colors. As I mentioned, I know so little about the Vedic texts. The problem arises from association. We find some early cultures reporting strange lights, brilliant rays, and odd phenomena when certain materials are combusted. Others only spoke of sounds, and the odd sounds associated with certain events. I imagine that shock can do that to a person - some remember the screetch of the brakes, while others recall the fire that ensued - when a car crashes. Certain cultures probably focus on different emanations of events - depending on their environment.

shaberon

16th December 2023, 13:17

Colors from Rg Veda are arrayed a little differently than we are used to.

Green and blue (https://www.jstor.org/stable/42930459) are indistinguishable; the spectrum is mainly divided into light and dark.

From Words for Color (https://archive.org/stream/jstor-287599/287599_djvu.txt), terms for "dazzling, brilliant" are prevalent, such as arc- and bha-.

There is an indeterminate "bear color" (vrksa varna)--the bear being considered the most dangerous animal.

The "devas" cannot possibly be "gods" because they are "lights".

Many of the terms cannot denote a particular hue, as they are applied to various targets that do not match.

The important part is perhaps:

Six colors, we are told (X 20, 9), accompany Agni the fire god :
krsnah gveto 'ruso yamo asya (agneh) bradhnah rjra uta gona
yagasvan.

The text contains numerous scan errors but seems to be accurate.

I am positive the Six are paramount for the 3,000 years of exegesis that I personally follow; as to whether they reflect IVC, I do not know.

Something probably does along with vermillion.

Talageri in quoting a bunch of "pre-Arya" stuff agrees with:

a. The tilak marks (of whatever material) on the forehead.

b. The sacred saffron colour, and, by implication, also the saffron flag.

And if you go back to the Letoon post at the top of the page and the idea of Mother Goddess, one will find Saffron Crocus permeated throughout the Graeco-European backstory--saffron again being a bit on the rare side and extremely valuable.

I believe it can be found as far back as the Minoans.

And this national color is almost certainly non-Indic (https://www.frontiersin.org/news/2022/03/09/frontiers-plant-science-domestication-origin-saffron-crocus-bronze-age-greece/) in origin:

In a review in Frontiers in Plant Science, researchers conclude that lines of evidence from ancient art and genetics converge on the same region.

“Both ancient artworks and genetics point to Bronze Age Greece, in approximately 1700 BCE or earlier, as the origin of saffron’s domestication,” said Ludwig Mann, one of the leading authors and a PhD student at Technische Universität Dresden, Germany.

https://images.ctfassets.net/mrbo2ykgx5lt/42248/56f8f29c190b0106ec3103840e0b0bcb/frontiers-plant-science-domestication-origin-saffron-crocus-bronze-age-greece.jpg?&w=824&fm=webp

Sanskrit for the specific plant is "kesar", and, I do not think it is in the Rg Veda.

The *color* may be admired, and close relatives such as safflower, but the real saffron appears to be imported.

Jim_Duyer

16th December 2023, 15:58

Thank you - the color information will certainly come in handy - I'm assembling data on items connected with sky gods of our past - and especially those linked with bothering them or driving them off. I was correct - the variations on the human stick figure shape match the various 20 or so proto Sumerian words for different types of men or women. With some time I can produce the entire translated corpus of symbols in Indus Script, and then we will have some more of the truth. I say some more because it's like a carpet that you pick up to sweep dirt under - never seems to be a shortage of portions to pick up, and you never see all of the dirt.

I'm going to get a short book out in the next week - my cold is finally better, and then I will assemble the Indus Script decipherments - which really form only a portion of the total - I have the Gobekli Tepe, the Easter Island and the Tartaria tablets done to add. I'm thinking of "The Alphabet of Adam", if that's not too cheezy a title. In reality there is no connection directly with Adam - the hidden biblical text says that Enosh, his grandson, was the first to write in the ancient language, and of course the daughter of Cain was one of the best, but many people recognize and have been searching for some type of "Ademic" alphabet. What interests me is that mankind was, at one point, so closely related and even friendly towards one another.

shaberon

17th December 2023, 10:46

Thank you - the color information will certainly come in handy - I'm assembling data on items connected with sky gods of our past - and especially those linked with bothering them or driving them off.

As a student of the arcane, I am out of touch with what might be more normative traditions such as the Bible or "Hinduism".

Therefor learning about Elijah was particularly disturbing.

The Judean king of the time had simply requested a "get well card" from the oracle of Baal Hadad at Ekron, which means it must have had a reputation for beneficience. And over this one simple request, we get a Yhwh crusade, which consists of attacking the sky/rain god with Drought. This--obviously I hope--consists of an anti-Veda.

On a refined scale, the Rg Veda has practically *nothing* in common with Abrahamic texts. Nothing.

No religious concepts apply to it, because Dharma is the reverse of religion.

Most Abrahamic establishments are based on a "perfect way to worship god", whereas Dharma ignores this and is human centered, that is, to employ the divine to eliminate suffering.

Therefor, the theses about how much "Hinduism" has in common with Christianity are just like the "Aryan Invasion", an extraneous projection back onto it.

On an informational basis. yes, recorded memories of the Great Drought might be kept. Has anyone ever challenged the Babylonian or Sumerian myths to see if perhaps they are not about a "terrestrial flood" of rising oceans? But simply refer to cosmic formation out of primeval Water? There cannot be a recorded memory about a terrestrial flood if it never happened.

I was correct - the variations on the human stick figure shape match the various 20 or so proto Sumerian words for different types of men or women.

I noticed that about IVC as well.

Won't say I have any idea what it may be elaborating, but I could say that in English we still distinguish child/adult. If later Indian traditions resemble IVC, then there are different terms for age groups or even individual years, and of course age applies to all people, rather than copper worker vs. hunter and so on.

What interests me is that mankind was, at one point, so closely related and even friendly towards one another.

Same.

The Egyptian value on Lapis Lazuli seems to be identical to the Indian--"it came from far away".

That is not to say that ancient societies were without wars, but, I do not think they were ideological.

Moreover, the Lapis trade shows a large working unit from pre-history, or the Age of Taurus, which persisted for thousands of years. And we can find the sudden death of it all around the 600s, combined with a total loss of memory. Roman stuff in Tamil Nadu from the 600s was "discovered" as if it were brand new all over again in the 1700s, and still not understood by most.

The Rosetta Stone for me, though not as old as IVC, is the Ashokan Pillars. In fact, it only takes one word--Indian Dharma is Greek Eusebia. This would have been super important to all Platonists, and we find that the New Testament crushes it and you are left with the indistinct term "godliness", which proves that the ancient system of understanding has been discarded and replaced by a shill. That means that an entire lifetime of struggle has been trivialized into a "style tag" which people simply presume they have, by following the "perfect worship" system.

The Pillars also include Aramaic, meaning the message must have fit in the Mid-eastern areas as well.

Mandaeanism is particularly reverential towards Anosh/Enosh/Enoch, son of Seth, although I do not know they have anything to say about the history of writing. In terms of tradition, yes, but we have to be in the realm of conjectural justification, since they do not bear any particularly ancient manuscripts. I, of course, oppose the suggestion they invented themselves dependent on Judaism or Islam due to the lack of texts--it is just very curious that they *do* use an Israelite mythos rather than Ugaritic, suggesting they are a type of Judean who never recognized the strange new ideas coming from Elijah and others.

When the Indian national symbols include Saffron, which is not native, and the Wheel and Lion Capital of Ashoka who was Buddhist, they must have lost their mind. The problem was they could not even think of a "real" national symbol, and these were eleventh-hour assignments for the sake of doing so.

They might hesitate to use the Wheel of Mehrgarh, since it would now be from a "foreign country", and--we do not know what it is, although the Six Colors from Rg Veda most definitely are the sub-stratum of Yoga, and that would be the symbol of it.

It would be an unfalsifiable argument. So I can't say that is what it "is". But there is no evidence for anything else.

Yes, I think that is the main point, that the past *was* a time of international friendliness, combined with similar aspects about how one treats the animals, environmental stewardship, and the like.

The purpose of civilization or industrialization is definitely for some amount of "protection from the elements", not to lose touch with them and attempt to substitute nature with something artificial. Worst of all capitalists' wars.

Everything I have studied appears to be portrayed in living definition by the events in Israel and Ukraine these days.

Very frustrating.

The IVC and Vedic jockeying for supremacy is also malignant within India itself, such as even Tamils deciding they are the "Aryan invaders" and therefor establishing their supremacy, while carrying out some of the harshest forms of caste oppression.

That is why I would say I am not intellectually sifting a pile of information, but, there is an underlying thesis which is unifying, and I am looking for parts where it has been changed from "more true" to "manipulated".

shaberon

19th December 2023, 08:09

Ruminating through this some more.

So we don't have a specific "starting point"; neither Indus, nor Harappa, nor Mohenjo Daro can be shown to have an archaic, definite reference to the culture under scrutiny. There is nothing to call it because we will deny the language was Sanskrit until something forcefully proves that.

If one were to use an arbitrary name, it may be appropriate to select a Haryana site: Bhirrana (oldest), Rakhigarhi (largest). These may still be relatively recent colloquial names for the areas, and so it would be unlikely to be the "real" name, but they are less misleading than the previous.

Because the script is so limited, others have already said it is probably "ideas" rather than "words", and so if I understand what Jim is saying, it is also to read "meanings" without necessarily knowing any letters or exact words.

This is not unfamiliar to us at all, since something like "6" can be "read" as a considerable variety of words, which have the same meaning.

So far, the seals look derived from the Mehrgarh Wheel and Nausharo Bulls.

They follow this pattern until near the end of use, it switches to Bactrian Eagle. Meluhha is credited with sending out almost exclusively Ivory Bird figurines around the "height" of IVC, ca. 2,200-2,100 B. C. E. That suggests to me that Meluhha may be Bactria or the region between the Caspian Sea and the Pamirs. Most scholars take "Magan" from cuneiform to be Makran. Considering the saga we are attempting to tell that east and west interfaced primarily through Makran for millennia, one should take a look at it now. It is a massively developed hub for the BRI or Chinese transportation system. Already resurrected.

Ur III clearly refers to DARmusen Me-luh-ha (https://www.jstor.org/stable/41223254) or multi-colored ivory birds from Meluhha. One idea is Persian and Hurrian Pirus (https://www.nature.com/articles/s41599-021-00868-w) (ivory) are drawn from Dravidian "pilu".

This, and heaps of Indus seals are found there, but almost nothing from Mesopotamia has been found in India.

This was the apparent magnitude of commerce (https://oxfordre.com/asianhistory/display/10.1093/acrefore/9780190277727.001.0001/acrefore-9780190277727-e-595?rskey=TrWZqC&result=3):

...entrepreneurs from the Indus Valley regularly ventured into these regions to transact with the local socioeconomic and political entities.

On the contrary, only a handful of exotic trade tools and commodities have been found at sites in the Greater Indus Valley.

Specific products were proactively designed and manufactured in the Indus Valley to fulfill the particular needs of foreign markets, and Indus craftspeople moved beyond their native cultural sphere adapting their distinctive productions to the taste of foreign elites or reworking indigenous models. The adoption of specific seals and iconographies to regulate external trade activities suggests a conscious attempt at implementing a coordinated supraregional marketing strategy adopting shared rules and procedures, with observable globalizing impacts in various contexts of Central and Western Asia.

The adoption of specific seals and iconographies to regulate external trade activities suggests a conscious attempt at implementing a coordinated supraregional marketing strategy adopting shared rules and procedures, with observable globalizing impacts in various contexts of Central and Western Asia.

This possibly conveyed itself to Musri (http://bharatkalyan97.blogspot.com/2019/06/meluhha-settlers-of-musri-kurdistan.html) with a likely idea:

Based on a detailed survey done by BB Lal, from a number of megalithic sites of Ancient India, it appears that the 'signs' of the Indus Script can be traced to the 'symbols' detected on pottery artifacts of these sites. The pictographs,hieroglyphs,hypertexts of Indus Script are traceable to these 'markis or symbols' on pottery artifacts of ancient India.

Farmer's thesis is that the seals are mostly Agricultural Magic. Kalyanaraman believes them to be mostly metallurgical. He also thinks the Rg Veda pre-dates IVC. And he is a horribly spammy writer. I am not sure it makes sense to say this about Assyria:

The monograph posits a hypothesis that Meluhha settlers of Musri (Kurdistan) used Indus Script to document their wealth-accounting ledgers and offer them as tributes of metalwork,metal armour and lapidary artofacts of gems and jewels to Shalamaneser III.

Based on the Rosetta Stone for Indus Script which is the Shalamaneser III Black Obelisk which displays Indus Script hypertexts on row 3 of the obelisk, it is clear that the settlers of Musri who paid tributed to Shalamaneser III were Meluhha artisans and merchants and Meluhha speakers.

Black Obelisk of Nimrud 825 BCE

It is in the Assyrian Room at the British Museum, which I, personally, have seen, I may have even photographed it. Unfortunately it is not obvious from the article what signs he is talking about and I can't tell from the picture, and if this were even possible, it is centuries after the script was discontinued.

From an article on Meluhha speech (https://www.academia.edu/12175533/PIE_and_Vedic_studies_Multi_layered_cipher_of_Meluhha_speech_and_attested_presence_of_Meluhha_speake rs_in_Ancient_Near_East):

That there were direct relations between the elites of Mesopotamia and the Indus Valley is attested by the gift of a stone statuette of a Meluhha dog to King Ibbi-Sin of Ur(2028-2004 BCE).

It is hypothesized that the settlers of Altyn-Depe spoke mleccha (Meluhhan).

Also says there is Altyn Depe Indus Script (https://www.academia.edu/28688689/Gonur_Depe_Namzaga_Altyn_Depe_clay_figurines_with_Indus_Script_hieroglyphs_signify_Meluhha_migration s_dha_va%E1%B8%8D_iron_smelters_ka%E1%B9%87%E1%B8%8De_ear_of_millet_maize_rebus_kh%C4%81%E1%B9%87%E1 %B8%8D%C4%81_tools_pots_and_pans_metal_ware_).

He has been doing this at least twenty-five years and simply has too much unorganized stuff to get a good picture of it.

On the important symbols, we would find his interpretation contradicts "Tree". Perhaps both may be valid.

https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-fnDtf3Adf1c/XL7wNA_NzfI/AAAAAAABecE/bT7B5T-OoV4JDC71cViBFPgGp5ORmHe6ACLcBGAs/s1600/sign176.JPG

1. baraḍo 'spine' Rebus: भरत bharata 'alloy of pewter, copper, tin'.

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-Lck3gmcCw6g/XL7wSJcVWcI/AAAAAAABecI/WjPyJLE-HKEthtN1tzHZXMWDRQD70tj6ACLcBGAs/s1600/sign342.JPG

2. karṇīka, kanka 'rim of jar' rebus: kaṇḍa kanka 'smelting furnace account (scribe), karṇī, supercargo--a representative of the ship's owner on board a merchant ship, responsible for overseeing the cargo and its sale.'.

That is like dynamite, in the sense of combining one of the most common glyphs with "Bharata" which is the word for India generally.

While what he is saying is not untrue, it is a Marathi influence or later context. It is a standard in Rig Veda. In that context:

[from bhara] m. ‘to be or being maintained’, Name of Agni (kept alive by the care of men), [Ṛg-veda; Brāhmaṇa; Kauśika-sūtra]

the fire in which the rice for Brāhmans is boiled

descended from Bharata or the Bharatas (applied to Agni either ‘sprung from the priests called Bh°s’ or ‘bearer of the oblation’), [Ṛg-veda]

Name of Rudra (the Maruts are called his sons), [Ṛg-veda ii, 36, 8]

also:

a weaver

a barbarian, mountaineer (= śabara)

(with aśva-medha), Name of the author of [Ṛg-veda v, 27]

(with deva-vāta and deva-śravas), Name of the authors of [Ṛg-veda iii, 23]

Again, that is like a guided selection, since it will run up on twenty or more meanings. Doing the same will also give the "Sanskritization of Meluhha":

Mleccha (म्लेच्छ, “barbarian”) refers to one of the two types of human beings according to the 2nd-century Tattvārthasūtra 3.36.—Those human beings who have no control over their speech i.e. behave and speak shamelessly without regard to anyone are called barbarians.

-ccham 1 Copper.

2) Vermilion.

n. copper

vermilion

a person who lives by agriculture or by making weapons

In that sense it almost literally means what we might call Bronze Age, which is another thing about the Mehrgarh Wheel is that it is Pure Copper.

Secondarily, vermillion = Hingula.

If we bypass most of his details, we can get a moderate form of organization on material from Rakhigarhi (http://bharatkalyan97.blogspot.com/2016/05/rakhigarhi-banawali-seals-with_23.html):

Citadel

Within the citadel of Rakhigarhi (RGR-2), mud-brick podiums like those at Kalibangan have been found. Here the podium has in-built oblong pit chambers, used possibly for ritualistic purpose. These chambers have deposits of charcoal bits.and cattle bones.

In another fire altar of Rakhigarhi (RGR-2) the floor and niches were coated with mud plaster. Significantly, a terracotta bull figurine has been found.on the floor near the western niche. Most likely, the structure was a place of worship, and the bull a sacred, revered animal. Next to this structure, a T-shaped fire altar with carved ends has been found.

Fire altars (Rakhigarhi)

To the north, in the same alignment, a brick-lined redctangular pit containing animal bones predominantly of the bovine family has been found. Almost from the same level three circular fire altars positioned in a semi-circular fashion reminiscent of those at Banawali have been excavated. Fine brushing over the surface of these altars has revealed white patches of possibly burnt hard shell of fruits offered at the fire altar. Nearest to Rakhigarhi, gold panning or washing has been known in the upper reaches of Sutlej and Beas.

Oh. Again, we are thinking of an historical epoch which consists of an expansion from Haryana --> highlands of the Beas, which, I think is the Hellenized spelling of Vyasa. As soon as you attempt to say Vyasa compiled the Vedas in their current standard while inhabiting that area, we can probably say this really happened, ca. 1,200-1,000 B. C. E..

The calamities with Rakhigarhi turned out to be first the dig director embezzled most of the money. Then it turned out that whenever it rains, kids come out and pick up anything washed out of the mud and sell it. Anyway, these are some recent finds, a small site-specific set.

Chimera and Tree:

https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-c6NMvzFARjc/V0r7LfH3bMI/AAAAAAAA1bg/gxxwIljEIow9CHb2YSks3DjRjdjjCqq5gCKgB/s1600/rg13.JPG

Goat:

https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-lIT1mg90gKM/V0r7MYRTrxI/AAAAAAAA1b0/tvnM9KhLASYZ-Mqm7la_AaIrvGoH-Ox5ACLcB/s1600/rg17.JPG

Unicorn:

https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-pcHellIIrB0/V0r7L33dLqI/AAAAAAAA1bs/J5Uz4NPJEuMKasHHc8zswmEx4LVkBQ_CgCLcB/s1600/rg15.JPG

Tiger:

https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-gGSzlCRT2fU/V0r7MIcPOMI/AAAAAAAA1bw/T40NFbew0rwJc0DmA8IlL22jw-GTR6iggCLcB/s1600/rg16.JPG

Rakhigarhi seal replicates
Banawari. Seal 17. Text 9201 Found in a gold-silversmith's residence.. Hornd tiger PLUS lathe + portable furnace. Banawali 17, Text 9201 Find spot: “The plan of ‘palatial building’ rectangular in shape (52 X 46 m) with eleven units of rooms…The discovery of a tiger seal from the sitting room and a few others from the house and its vicinity, weights of chert, and lapis lazuli beads and deluxe Harappan pottery indicate that the house belonged to a prominent merchant.” (loc.cit. VK Agnihotri, 2005, Indian History, Delhi, Allied Publishers, p. A-60)

Weird:

https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-td3zJX2EuvM/V0r7Le2GbnI/AAAAAAAA1bc/-vy-edFJFTMWJf9ykWJYvCaA-yHRtG2CwCKgB/s1600/rg12.JPG

https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-68LnaH8sLOo/UfX3sfcar3I/AAAAAAAAbpY/cCIDvIA5hHc/s1600/ScreenShot460.jpg

I'm going to contrast that with the unfortunate spectacle of Indian Nationalism.

In a double way because this one is a Tamil nationalist.

As we found with genetics there is not really a difference between north and south Indians. The "natives" would be Australic and Mongolian, and others such as the Todas, Kols, Bhils, etc., who are credited with the gift of agriculture as well as iron. The apparent difference between Tamils and Rajputs, for example, took place within the Indian sub-continent.

And so this next guy is correct in a lot of what he says, until we get to the parts where I would say he does his own thing.

For some reason, 1993 appears to be the year that Talageri and at least one other writer started publishing against Hindutva. This is in that same vein, questioning the spontaneous decision by Hindutva about Saffron, Mishra 1993 in Marxists Internet Archive (https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/mishra/1993/04/x01.htm):

The rationality of projecting Ram, a religious figure, as a national hero, and held that this status can only be attributed to the people's hero Bhagat Singh.

Consider the irony. The Ramayana is the oldest Epic. Plenty of time for them to decide if Lord Rama was "the peoples' avenger". Suddenly, in the 1920s, they are simply told that he is. Of course it is highly emotionally charged:

The virulent anti-Muslim propaganda and the call to "Hinduize politics and militarize Hinduism" resorted to by Savarkar and his Mahasabha effectively meant full wartime collaboration with the British.

Hedgewar asked RSS shakhas to celebrate independence day -- 26 January 1930 as decided by the Congress -- through worship of the bhagwa jhanda (saffron flag).

Golwalkar took over as Sarsanghchalak after Hedgewar in 1940 and further perfected the anti-Muslim, pro-British thrust of Hinduism. Says Golwalkar, "The theories of territorial nationalism and of common danger, which formed the basis for our concept of nation, had deprived us of the positive and inspiring content of our real Hindu nationhood and made many of the freedom movements virtually anti-British movements. Being anti-British was equated with patriotism and nationalism. This reactionary view has had disastrous effects upon the entire course of the independence struggle, its leaders and the common people". (Golwalkar, 1966, pp. 142-43)

This, perhaps, is the most revealing exposition of the RSS' definition of patriotism and nationalism. Strange as it may appear, this ideologue of Hinduism decries anti-British nationalism right amidst the rising tide of freedom movement to overthrow the colonial yoke. All the 'nationalist, patriotic' outcries and fervor of RSS were essentially directed against past memories of Muslim domination. For it, history had ceased to exist after Shivaji's forays against the last great Moghul emperor, Aurangzeb. The British interlude only helped demolish the last remnants of Mughal rule and hence was an ally. Shivaji's battle was to be continued till it culminated in Hindu Rashtra. The RSS emerged from Maharashtra with unmistakable Maratha overtones and it willingly played into the hands of British colonialists who always tried to sabotage the freedom movement by encouraging the Hindu-Muslim divide.

RSS-BJP propagandists day in and day out accuse communists of borrowing a foreign ideology from a German named Marx while they themselves claim to be purely indigenous. However, it was none but a German (albeit of Austrian origin) again who deeply influenced Golwalkar in fashioning his ideology and organisation. The name of this German is Adolf Hitler.

Writes Golwalkar in his We or Our Nationhood Defined: "German national pride has now become the topic of the day. To keep up the purity of the nation and its culture, Germany shocked the world by her purging the country of the semitic races -- the Jews. National pride at its highest has been manifested here. Germany has also shown how well-nigh impossible it is for races and cultures, having differences going to the root, to be assimilated into one united whole, a good lesson for us in Hindustan to learn and profit by."

Translation of this Nazism in India means that non-Hindu people must renounce every bit of their identity -- be it language, culture, religion everything. In case they refuse to do so, Golwalkar may still allow them to stay in the country subject to the condition that they "wholly subordinate to the Hindu nation, claiming nothing, deserving no privileges, far less any preferential treatment, not even citizen's rights".

The whole RSS philosophy of Hindu Rashtra, therefore, is nothing but a borrowed version of the German Nazi state.

Savarkar, the founding father of the ideology of Hindutva, in his desperate search for a symbol of Hindu India, wrote, "Some of us worship Ram as an incarnation, some admire him as a hero and a warrior, all love him as the most illustrious representative monarch of our race." Since then, advocates of Hindutva have been harping on the theme of this 'most illustrious representative monarch of our race'. Vijaya Dashami was chosen as the day for launching of RSS in 1927. The saffron flag, supposed to be the flag of Ram, was chosen as the flag of RSS.

They have named a color for a Greek import and made a mascot out of someone after nearly four thousand years.

Here is his unlikely geography:

The original inhabitants of India were people of the Mohenjodaro and Harappan civilisation in the Indus valley -- a civilisation higher than that of the Aryans. India 's pre-Aryan population was most probably Dravidian. The Aryan tribes were semi-nomadic pastoral tribes with a developed patriarchal clan system and military democracy. In other words, they were at a transitional stage from a pre-class to class society. From the Indus basin and Northwest, they gradually spread out to the Gangetic basin and Northeast. This advance, however, involved innumerable battles with the local population. This whole transitional phase is reflected in the Rig Veda and other Vedas.

Almost anything they say is obsolete, since there is just more archaeology and genetics now that simply overturn these proclamations.

In a more sociological sense, derivable from increasing numbers of writings and historical evidence, the following is roughly correct:

As Aryan tribes evolved into settled agricultural communities, a number of despotic, early slave-owning kingdoms emerged in the beginning of the first millennium B.C. At this stage, Vedic religion gave way to what is known as Brahmanism.

The Varna structure acquired a social rigidity and there emerged a separate social group of Brahmans -- specialists in the Vedas -- with a good deal of authority. The laws of Manu, in 5th century B.C., gave divine sanction to the varna and caste system and the Brahman caste was virtually deified. Vedic gods were relegated to secondary positions and new deities came to the forefront, Brahma being the foremost among them. As the local population gradually merged with the Aryan conquerors, their deities too entered the Brahmanic pantheon. With the development of a rigid caste system, gods too became caste gods.

Brahmanism was collapsing under its own weight and the broad masses of people in the form of unconscious protest against oppressive caste system started rallying behind the rival religious trends of Buddhism and to an extent Jainism by 6th and 5th century B.C.

Both these trends rejected the caste system as well as the organised priesthood. Buddhism, in the main, replaced Brahmanism and between 3rd century B.C. and 1st and 2nd century A.D. it even became the state religion under Maurya and Kushan dynasties. With its complex rituals, alienated from the masses, the Brahminic aristocracy was no match for the Buddhists' populism.

This is not quite right:

In the course of its struggle with Buddhism, Brahmanism drastically reshaped itself under the leadership of Adi Shankaracharya. Thus began the phase of what is known as Hinduism.

But, yes, post-Mauryas, India reverted to petty kingdoms and:

Hinduism essentially came to mean the preservation of the old caste system supplemented by new methods of influencing and controlling the masses. With the growth of social stratification, caste, ethnic and racial diversification and complexities of class relations, Hindus went on splintering into various sects, marked by unending mutual schisms.

While futile attempts for sarva panth sambhav -- later translated as sarva dharma sambhav and proclaimed as the basis of Indian secularism -- were made by some, in later periods there emerged religious reform movements, first under the impact of Islam, and then Christianity. Kabir, Nanak, Chaitanya and a host of other reformers -- making up what is known as the Bhakti Andolan in the Middle Ages -- attacked the caste system and the complicated rituals of Hinduism. Kabir stands out as the most outstanding among all these reformers, who, on behalf of the common masses launched scathing attacks against the superstition and hypocrisy of the Brahmans.

In the British period, Raja Rammohan Roy, Dayanand Saraswati and Vivekanand were the major advocates of reform. They all championed the pantheistic philosophy of the Vedanta school and tried to get rid of the rigid caste system. However, each one of these trends ended up only adding another sect to Hinduism and nothing more. Hinduism, with its rigid caste system, supposedly with divine sanction, closed its doors forever and remained essentially a national religion. Buddhism, Christianity and then Islam grew into world religions. Vishwa Hindu Parishad therefore is a misnomer, a pretence, to project Hinduism as a world religion.

More than upholding a false Hindu pride, all progressive reform movements in Hinduism have tried to give Hinduism a liberal, modern outlook with particular emphasis on doing away with the rigidity of its caste structure. Hindu orthodoxy has all along resisted it more or less successfully on the strength of traditions and traditional institutions. Now for the first time, there has emerged a counter-movement under the auspices of the Sangh Parivar, which aims at annulling whatever effect the reforms have had. Those who are expecting a social reform in Hinduism out of the current upsurge of Hindutva are living in a fool's paradise. This movement has so far offered us only wilful distortion of history, consolidation of the social and political clout of the sadhus and mahants, renewed aggressiveness of upper caste Hindus and of course a lumpen army of Bajrang Dal and Shiv Sainiks.

That is why the state of study is so bogged down, because most Indians are sectarian if not extremist.

Jim_Duyer

19th December 2023, 16:06

[[Because the script is so limited, others have already said it is probably "ideas" rather than "words", and so if I understand what Jim is saying, it is also to read "meanings" without necessarily knowing any letters or exact words.

This is not unfamiliar to us at all, since something like "6" can be "read" as a considerable variety of words, which have the same meaning.]]

Thanks for your information. I believe that each symbol does in fact have a word or word part assigned, and my reason for that is the use of these symbols by surrounding civilizations - Hurrian, Hittite, Elamite, Sumerian, Amorite-Babylonian, and paleo Hebrew, Canaanite, Ugaritic, Syriac, etc. - all use a symbol for a word part. In the case of the Semitic families - Amorite, Hebrew, Akkadian, Canaanite, Phoenician, etc, often these were consonants only, and vowels were not included.
The Akkadians used vowel parts, but not as often as the others, and actually most of what they used they borrowed from others.
The Easter Island and Indus scripts are brothers (or cousins if you will), and my opinion is that we will be able to decipher most of both of these with work. What underlying language or languages they use I do not know. Frankly, that's also not my field - I leave that to the scholars to argue over. I like to think that my position or part in this story of language and communication, is to identify the symbols and assign ideas to them. Whether they be symbols from the Americas, the Pacific, the Middle East or Asia - man thinks. Man writes. Man expresses his joys and most often his sorrows. It's the historical yearning for understanding that we should appreciate by translating it into signs that ring true with us.
There was once one language, writing that is, planet-wide. My opinion, based on what the Sumerian and Hurrian tablets tell me, is that the sky-gods taught it to them. Who those sky-gods were, and whether they were some lost race of the North, of Atlantis, of the South Poles, or from further out in the depths of space will be identified with time.

Each kernal of new language that we can decipher, among those that are considered "untranslatable" by our paid scholars, is another piece of humanity regained. Some day, and I hope to help bring this about to some small extent, someday we will be a united mankind, one that no longer fears for its future because it has a true understanding of its origins and past. I truly believe the Sumerians when they tell us that we were brought here from other planets. And the planets that they speak of are, not coincidentally, also the ones that our scientists tell us have the best chance of being earth-like. When we begin to embrace the idea that most of the universe looks like us to a good degree, and not small green things or grey things, then we will be one step closer to where we belong. [Yes, there probably are greys, and others, but most of these, from their actions, appear to be AI or constructs. ]

shaberon

20th December 2023, 07:25

I don't quite have an idea, and remain skeptical.

Otherwise it would be really easy to simply seize upon one of the most important glyphs and tie it to one of the more important undercurrents in Indian Yoga such as seen in an unusual Tamil Visvakarman, Rama, and Buddha (https://ecommons.cornell.edu/server/api/core/bitstreams/c0c3f79f-3b9a-4c69-b28d-9c7c76fdd89b/content) invocation:

Hail! Sri Haribhadra, vanquisher of desire, mighty one who has attained
nirvana, source of illumination, who emanates rays of six colors, lord of three
worlds, possessor of the three-fold power, we venerate you.

The corresponding symbol should not really be a "wheel", since it had not been invented yet. The Toy Carts from ca. 2,300 B. C. E. have solid wheels. IVC should not be able to talk about a spoked wheel, or iron.

That is the same view on the Rg Veda timeline; Talageri does not deal with IVC, but he does promote Out of India Theory against Witzel et al.

This one for IVC is actually another argument.

I personally liked Farmer's streamlined presentation of the basics, but the rest of it is his own conjecture. And, it turns out, this is the camp of "Indus is illiterate", which is Farmer + Witzel.

On the other side, Bharatkalyan claims to have essentially translated IVC to Sanskrit, except I really don't see any of his reasoning. To his credit, it is a more likely explanation of why IVC seals are in Akkadia and Elam. Trading purposes.

Without necessarily agreeing with either one, they are among the few sources of information.

On the most common glyph, Farmer has "Tree" where here we find rim-of-jar (http://bharatkalyan97.blogspot.com/2019/11/indus-script-is-linguistic-hieroglyphic.html).

This is the result of analysis on Mesopotamian copper:

During the earliest period the isotopic signature of ores from Central and North Anatolia is dominant; during the next millennium this region loses its importance and is hardly present any more at all.

As source of such copper we suggest Gujarat/Southern Rajasthan which, on general grounds, has been proposed before to have been the most important supplier of copper in Ancient India. We propose this Indian copper to have been arsenic-poor and to be the urudu-luh-ha variety which is one of the two sorts of purified copper mentioned in contemporaneous written texts from Mesopotamia to have been in circulation there concurrently.

And to make Bronze:

That the source of tin for the Tin-Bronze revolution came through India is clearly seen in the decipherment of three pure tin ingots with Indus Script insciptions discovered in a shipwreck in Haifa, Israel.

Tin ore was made into tin ingots by artisans of India and traded the ingots specifying the cargo on Indus Script inscriptions written on the tin ingots.

https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-HcjFRF7srY4/XdCV2gNHRPI/AAAAAAABnQ4/GEv8hGgY0LwfZrDzmvypdAgImiIa9BMywCLcBGAsYHQ/s200/tinb1.jpg

https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-crprJoJibzM/XdCV2jDAY6I/AAAAAAABnQ8/iHVhm2Hj7KU7OiTZw9JW1KG6a7vbP8DpACLcBGAsYHQ/s200/tinb2.jpg

Does that qualify? I am not sure.

I figured out what he means about the Black Obelisk--it is the animals that are Indus Script. Such as one of them being Monkey dressed as a Woman, and another is the Indian Rhinoceros which even the museum said it looked like the artist had never seen a real one.

And so for example the Unicorn:

The field symbol of young bull with spiny horn and standard device signifies wealth produced by goldsmith, lapidary guild.

This is what I called Sabari with a Branch Crown:

https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-oRI5eJkzeno/Xc6qz2mvoFI/AAAAAAABnE0/e1x3jcUeAOk1zHwH5nNv1e2U3pUYEelHACLcBGAsYHQ/s320/archxx1.JPG

https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-bVLLChDdDIo/Xamp02cxMEI/AAAAAAABmAY/z-k4jwtWPpM2eke-yzjSEAy8gLYiAuCPwCLcBGAsYHQ/s200/4307%2Bh179B.jpg

Person wearing a diadem or tall W head-dress standing within an ornamented arch; there are two stars on either side, at the bottom of the arch.

Old bird:

https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-0vEPFlXCeCs/WQvUSN5ughI/AAAAAAABDx4/nGJCAqq373oFBRNNYJlNgVLyw_rb2xnIACLcB/s1600/mem2.jpg

Unicorn with Swan?

https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-GdCxi9IDZC0/Xc9D7qD5zAI/AAAAAAABnLo/i-bdXRjHjQweXuHxjij3W2zXL3UIZ-GGQCLcBGAsYHQ/s1600/lost%2Bseal.JPG

Weird:

https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-RfY8TdurhGo/Xc9Fmb0i-aI/AAAAAAABnLw/k0LqMvH-cdkZZzY7GxA26MmdkadgXvNqQCLcBGAsYHQ/s1600/dotted%2Bcircle%2Banimal.JPG

As examples of the possible anachronism he is creating:

I submit that Sign51 reads bichā 'scorpion' PLUS 'ears'; thus bichā kāra 'iron worker' or 'ironsmith'.

For the "Goat":

Banawali 9 Field symbolHieroglyph:9204 miṇḍāl 'markhor' (Tōrwālī) meḍho a ram, a sheep (Gujarati)(CDIAL 10120) Rebus: mẽṛhẽt, meḍ 'iron' (Munda.Ho.) PLUS koD 'sprout' rebus: koD 'workshop'.Thus, iron workshop.

For example, the picture of an elephant or trunk part of the elephantant is signified by the cipher text (picture) Meluhha words karibha, ibha , 'elephant'.

Similar-sounding words constitute the plain text of Meluhha words -- karba, ib which mean 'iron, ferrite ore'.

Rhombus or bun ingot oval shape signifies muh 'ingot' mūhā mẽṛhẽt = iron smelted by the Kolhes and formeḍinto an equilateral lump a little pointed at each end

Well, it is probably correct about Mundas and Kols. But at that age? I believe meteoric iron had been used in Anatolia, but even if it was known in India, I do not think you could have made a guild out of it.

However he manages to scrape up a term used for instance in RV VI.3.5 (https://www.meluhha.com/rv/verse.pl?v=06.003.05b&acc=no&q=ayas&lang=ved):

Archer-like, fain to shoot, he sets his arrow, and whets his splendour like the edge of iron:
The messenger of night with brilliant pathway, like a tree-roosting bird of rapid pinion.

What? We just said there was no such thing. But for Ayas (https://www.wisdomlib.org/definition/ayas):

1) Ayas (अयस्):—n. iron, metal, [Ṛg-veda] etc.

2) an iron weapon (as an axe, etc.), [Ṛg-veda vi, 3,5 and 47, 10]

We might have to argue that is an interpretation, because:

3) Gold.

4) A metal in general.

The dictionary can only reflect someone has suggested it was iron in RV. Line 1 seems to admit it may be generic.

If we cannot find worked iron at the age of the older IVC seals, I cannot understand how they could possibly be involved.

For me to get the hang of them, the "Tree" and the "Wheel" seem like the essentials.

Jim_Duyer

20th December 2023, 15:32

OK I understand your reluctance, no problem.
[[On the other side, Bharatkalyan claims to have essentially translated IVC to Sanskrit, except I really don't see any of his reasoning. To his credit, it is a more likely explanation of why IVC seals are in Akkadia and Elam. Trading purposes.]]
IF the IVC seals translate to Sanskrit, then Bharatkalyan should be able to use the same symbols with Sanskrit as the underlying language to translate the Easter Island symbols, right? But he can't. Not evidence perhaps, just my common sense.

And he's off with the copper as well. The earliest copper sources were in Anatolia. And the Sumerian word for copper is, wait for it, a borrowed word from the Hurrian, who originated as neighbors of the Sumerians when they both lived in Anatolia. BTW - my evidence of an Anatolian origin has not been published yet and will not meet with scholarly accord at first. But I have tons of it, and all substantiate the fact of their origin in northern central Anatolia and on into the areas of the southern Caucasus range.

IF, and I say, IF the Sumerians had journeyed to Easter Island, from the Middle East to the Pacific in general I should say, then we would see more of their proto shapes there, and we do not. That means that either the Indus Valley people did journey to the Pacific, bringing their symbols, or another group from somewhere not in those areas introduced it to both of them.

I'm leaning towards the second option because I don't believe that the Sumerians created their proto symbols either - they share quite a bit in common with the very earliest European symbols. So there was a wash-backwash situation - some knowledge went from (I believe the North Pole) the European area to the Middle East and some went from Anatolia to Eastern Europe - since the Tartara tablets are written in Sumerian, and I have translated them fairly easily.

And none of the above explains why there was a city, with pillars and columns and great buildings, hidden inside of a very small valley enclosed by high mountains, in the north of Brazil area. And it contained writings which we have a record of, and they resemble none of the above. They do, however, resemble some of the other writings from South America - the ones that our scholars brush under the rug. This is the same lost city of the jungle that the English explorer (Fawcett?) died searching for. In fact, he used the same archival copies from the governmental library in northern Brazil that I have copies of. So yes, there are not one, not two, but several mysterious writing groups and areas, and all of them appear to have been linked at one time. All of them by humans, although perhaps some advanced group. I have never studied the Atlantean lore deeply, but that would be the closest analogy that most would be aware of. Personally I use the DNA and admixture that we have proven, scientifically, forms a part of every European - one part locals, one part from the Russian steppes area and one part form this Northern group. It's easy for me to contemplate a kingdom that sank beneath the waves for two reasons - one they have lots and lots of volcanic activity in the polar region, and two we have the reports from the Anglo-Saxons, Old Norse and Old Welsh writings, which I discovered when I translated (again, and properly) Taliesin the Welsh Druid poet extraordinary.
So in 530 King Arthur took a journey there to obtain a cure for the plague which was killing his people. He died of the plague and the ones he searched for had gone - only ruins remained, and he describes them in detail.
Why did he journey to the North polar region? Because he was educated. And the Greek classics from 700s BC are full of stories of groups from that Polar North region visiting Greece, and that they had a cure for the plague. The Greeks wrote this well before the big outbreak of the plague, and some 1000 years before Arthur.

So the world is not always at it seems, with many connections not laid on the table yet.

shaberon

21st December 2023, 08:21

IF the IVC seals translate to Sanskrit, then Bharatkalyan should be able to use the same symbols with Sanskrit as the underlying language to translate the Easter Island symbols, right? But he can't.

My first inclination is to say there is likely to be a strong difference in northern and southern hemispheres because of the visible stars.

I would like to see comparative images of the basics and trends of the writings from various areas.

I tend to use the general terminology "Lemuria" for a time when the lands masses may have been much different and the Pacific region may have been more traversable.

"Atlantis" was pretty similar to now except for some islands and the Ice Age.

The possibly real "racial memory" that I can think of is not quite a Great Flood, however, Buddhists say that Manjushri came to Nepal from Wu Tai Shan, and split open Chobhar Gorge. This drained the inland sea out of Kathmandu Valley, making it inhabitable. The Japanese have done a geological analysis on the gorge and determined it was an actual event that took place about 38,000 years ago.

It is not impossible there was a migration of Mongolians to an "India" that was sparsely inhabited by Australics.

They may have already known about "Indonesians" and so on.

The Buddhist belief is shared by the native or Limbuwan shamans.

In the Ice Age, "Turanian" is a fair enough term for "Central Asian", which is the origin of Indians and Ethiopians. I don't know how large we could say it really was, but, north from the Himalayas for quite some distance is believed to have been a paradise. Nevertheless, MA-1 or Malta Buret boy must somehow be related to Europeans who show variations at a much greater age. Theoretically, before the Ice Age there may have been some accessible worldly commerce and migration. If we consider the Denisovans of some ca. 45,000 years ago in Russia, the strongest carriers of their genetics are in New Guinea.

We know the following is a Meluhhan Goat--the question is, is it an IVC Goat and if so--is it a Vedic Goat:

Glyptique de l'époque d'Akkad, 2340 - 2200 avant J.-C., Louvre Museum.

Shu-ilishu's Cylinder seal. Courtesy Department des Antiquities Orientales, Musee du Louvre, Paris. The cuneiform text reads: Shu-Ilishu EME.BAL.ME.LUH.HA.KI (interpreter of Meluhha language)

https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-J8wMnpNzr8M/XXNv0LGlucI/AAAAAAABjWo/Wvj5UsnKl68lrWs3369hzqg7lVdsRjRqACLcBGAs/s1600/shu-ilishu1.jpg

The Meluhha traders carry hieroglyphs which signify their identities: mlekh 'goat' rebus: milakkhu 'copper'.(Meluhha merchant); ranku 'liquid measure' rebus: ranku 'tin'

Top register of the cylinder seal shows a crucible and two storage pots.

That the Meluhhan traders (shown carrying a goat and a liquid measure) are transacting for trade in tin and copper is archaeologically attested by the surprising find that most of the copper of Ancient Near East came from Gujarat and Rajasthan.

Copper from Gujarat used in Mesopotmia, 3rd millennium BCE, evidenced by lead isotope analyses of tin-bronze objects; report by Begemann F. et al.

Is this an IVC Fish:

Formation and evolution of Indus Script writing system is related to metalwork trade as seen from the archaeologically attested Susa pot containing metalwork equipment, weapons,metalware and tools.

https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-1674_I4UXHA/TrY2nNJuSaI/AAAAAAAAP54/JLo0uCmU91w/s400/ScreenShot185.bmp

Context for use of ‘fish’ glyph. This photograph of a fish and the ‘fish’ glyph on Susa pot are comparable to the ‘fish’ glyph on Indus inscriptions. Fish hieroglyph: aya 'fish' rebus: ayas 'alloy metal'.

When it comes to the Black Obelisk something weird is going on. The writings tell all the campaigns of Shalmaneser III, but only a few of them were selected as pictoral scenes. Most of the kings are offering tribute such as precious metal, weapons, chariots, but the King of Musri offers animals. At IVC there is a realistic Rhinoceros and so the case in point is already famous with Unicorn Hunters (https://www.britam.org/unicorn.html#6c):

http://www.britam.org/Sakea.jpg

http://www.britam.org/Gundestrop.jpg

Unicorn and "Tree" with Fruit:

http://www.britam.org/assyria.jpg

# Camels whose backs are doubled [i.e. Bactrian Camels as distinct from Arabian camels that have only one hump], a river ox [hippopotamus], a sakea, a susu [antelope], elephants, baz'u [and] uqupu [monkeys], I received from him.#
The sakea is interpreted as a rhinoceros but it does not look like one and almost certainly is not one...

There is no "Hippopotamus" such as in Musri = Egypt if the more likely candidate is Buffalo.

It is not an IVC Antelope, has branched horns.

If Musri = Iraqi Kurdistan, I am not sure why they might use the meanings of a system that perished a thousand years previous. The scene is not about traders, it is said to be actual gifts from this person.

The tone of this thing is much more serious (https://tyndalehouse.com/explore/articles/the-black-obelisk/) about the king who followed Elijah:

Jehu is famous in the Bible for bringing the dynasty of Ahab to an end. 2 Kings 9 tells how Jehu, one of the commanders of the Israelite army, was anointed by a servant of the prophet Elisha as king of Israel. Jehu proceeded to assassinate both Joram, king of Israel, and Ahaziah, king of Judah — a son and a grandson of Ahab, respectively — and then to wipe out most of the remaining family of Ahab.

Jehu went on to initiate his own dynasty, and four generations of kings of Israel were descended from him. It was under these auspices that Jehu, in 841 BC, took a tribute to the Assyrian king, Shalmaneser III (who reigned from 858 to 824 BC). Shalmaneser had been campaigning to the north of Israel against King Hazael of Aram-Damascus, and Jehu was undoubtedly attempting to keep Shalmaneser from attacking Israel. This event is not mentioned in the Bible, but its relevance for Shalmaneser’s royal ideology is evident in the fact that he not only mentioned it in his inscriptions, but he portrayed it on a monument called the Black Obelisk.

And it is the first known mention in his thirty conquests (https://www.kchanson.com/ANCDOCS/meso/obelisk.html):

I descended upon Parsua. I received the tribute of the kings of Parsua. I captured the rest of Parsua, who were not loyal to Assur; I captured their cities; I carried off their spoil and property to Assyria.

The whole thing is completely violent.

As to why the IVC Unicorn may resemble the others, I have no idea.

The significance of the Jar is that it seems to be used for everything. So I can understand why he might guess the most common glyph has this meaning.

Here it is as a single stamp from Daimabad:

https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-p3Yf-bgV7dQ/XdCR6Bffz-I/AAAAAAABnQY/42KPqbHtG4ojQBx20akMf-ZfviVyP_d8ACLcBGAsYHQ/s1600/daimabadseal.jpg

https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-Uic-LjEV-XU/Xc9ZReL57KI/AAAAAAABnOA/ADa0c0EunXkL5avpIaB6hVO1jltnO6oTwCEwYBhgL/s1600/sign342.JPG

This Sign 342 on Indus Script inscriptions (over 8000 inscriptions have been found so far, dated from ca. 3300 BCE) signifies authentication of cargo maritime trade transaction by the writer, scribe.

Here is a chart of human figures:

https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-IFZXBM-V24s/Xc9a25PmdTI/AAAAAAABnOk/gmXkOOMdfPw8gkGGSkyKl-YHWa3VacckQCLcBGAsYHQ/s1600/sign1seta%2B%25281%2529.JPG

He offers this suggestion:

Gadd seal 1, Ur. Water-carrier pictorial motif which evolves as Sign 12 of Indus Script.

https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-AuGJQZsFQSE/XdCRw8v9wfI/AAAAAAABnQM/Y934EfpRxMc9UCQUplu0nePd5eEVg9z-gCLcBGAsYHQ/s1600/sign15%2B1.jpg

and they make this combination:

https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-XbaE7dwt9JU/XdCRw4hlHII/AAAAAAABnQQ/eJVle5BVYEUtbJixF3Tg6yjsigL-lt93wCLcBGAsYHQ/s1600/sign15a.JPG

It seems to me indisputable that the primary meaning must come from the Goat.

That is, if Meluhha is equivalent to IVC or at least a portion of it, approximately Balochistan.

shaberon

22nd December 2023, 06:55

Continuing to dredge the theses that have been applied to the IVC Seals, here is the idea that the ubiquitous "Tree" or "Jar" is actually a:

Bull (https://www.academia.edu/34563005/THE_BIRD_SYMBOLS_OF_THE_HARAPPAN_SEALS_KIKATA_GAUTAMA_BUDDHA_AND_PRAMAGANDA)

for which the term is "Uksha".

That is from Ranajit Pal, who refutes several of Witzel's points, and lands in the zone that the main battle in Rg Veda was around 1,800 B. C. E.. So far, to me at least, this seems reasonable or most likely, or it cannot be shifted very far in either direction. Of course, this means it is mixed with the ending of IVC--whatever that actually is.

He is trying to adapt to Rakhigarhi primacy:

This paper suggests that Magadha included Patna but its early center was the Rakhigarhi area. Kikata appears to be related to a bird-type Harappan symbol that seems to designate the chicken and may be read as „Kika‟. In the Rigveda, Pramaganda of Kikata is placed near Kurukshetra. He appears to be the same as king Gandhara of the Puranas.

Rakhigarhi was older, and probably also larger than Mohenjo Daro, and seems to have been culturally distinct. There was cultural continuity from early Harappan period to mature Harappan, though not up to the late Harappan phase. As G.Possehl writes, the early use of baked bricks at Rakhigarhi is distinctive and graffiti signs found here may be the harbingers of the Harappan writing system.

So you have a Vedic Kikata, which was almost certainly in the northwest, and then a later use of the name for the area around Patna, Bihar. A few of his points:

The glyph resembling "X" was taken as Mitra/Mithra in Persia, which may be related to the Indian meaning.

One aspect of the so-called ‘facelessness’ is that the ancient name of the Rakhigarhi area (and of other Harappan regions) is unknown.

The boundary of Magadha kept shifting over the centuries; the Rigveda mentions Kikata, not Magadha, which appears to be an adjacent territory.

In the Atharvaveda, fever is wished away to the lands of the Gandharis, Mujavants, Angas and Magadhas. As the first two people were North westerners it is unlikely that Magadha of this Veda was Bihar.

The discrepancy is still contained in definitions of Kikata (https://www.wisdomlib.org/definition/kikata):

1c) —(c)—the land in which the Buddha was born; its people became purified by their devotion to Hari; noted for the sacred Gayā and the garden park rājagṛha, also for the āśrama of Cyavana. Other sacred spots fit for śrāddha offerings were Vaikuṇṭha, Lohadaṇḍa, Gṛdhrakūṭā and Śoṇaka.

Kīkaṭa (कीकट).—The name of this people occurs only in one passage of the Rigveda, where they appear as hostile to the singer and as under the leadership of Pramaganda.

and it is found in Yoga Vasistha in the section for Speech of Crow and Cuckoo (https://www.wisdomlib.org/hinduism/book/yoga-vasistha-english/d/doc228813.html):

It is well when the cunning consort with the cunning, as the crow and the crab meeting at a pool; or the rook and the owl joining in an arbour; for the two rogues though seemingly familiar, will not fail to foil one another by their natural enmity (ka ko lu kika).

The cuckoo associating with the crow, and resembling him in figure and colour; is distinguished by his sweet notes from the other; as the learned man makes himself known by his speech in the society of the ignorant.

Pal suggests a combined or multiplex use of the IVC glyphs:

While some of the seals were of commercial nature, many others had an archival role. The seals appear to be logographic although there may have been a phonetic tendency later.

https://html.scribdassets.com/3k8xunnk8w61wd1d/images/3-f893e8ef13.png

...has been read as the votive formula ‘Mahakal Dvaŝa Uksha’ which is linked to the great Mahakal temple of Mohenjo Daro (the great Bath). Mahakal (Mekal) was a highly respected world deity .

https://html.scribdassets.com/3k8xunnk8w61wd1d/images/4-355670680d.jpg

...appears in seal no 2396 00 and may be read as Maha Sapta Dvara. Saptadvara may be linked to names such as Bodhisatta, Mahasatta etc. The term Mahasattva may not be limited to Buddism.

In the Aitareya Aranyaka, people of Vanga and Magadha (Vagadha) are likened to birds and chided for having no proper religion. This leads one to suspect that Kikata-Magadha, may have been associated with the bird symbol. Kikata echoes the Sanskrit term ‘Kukkuta’ for chicken which is believed to have been first domesticated in the Indus-Saraswati Valley and is a unique contribution of India-Pakistan to world culture.

It must have had a special significance and it is natural to expect its symbol in the seal archive. The root of the word chicken may be ‘Kika’ which corresponds to German ‘Kϋken’, English ‘cock’ and ‘Kukkutah’.

Note that the ziggurat of Elam is *prior* to the ziggurat of Ur. Conjecturally, it is similar to the Indian Stupa.

https://html.scribdassets.com/3k8xunnk8w61wd1d/images/4-355670680d.jpg

...occurs in several seals and seems to be an important name of the Indus-Saraswati era. If the bird symbol is read as
‘Kika’ the symbol pair becomes Kika-Ketu or Kukkutah. The second symbol (from the right) is a depiction of a flag ‘ketu’, which has an administrative and geographical significance. Ketumala was a country-name and the site-name Katelai echoes the Tamil Kotiayi. J. E. Mitchiner rightly asserts that the seals ‘contain the names of towns and regions, both within and beyond the
Indus Valley’.

In later linguistics:

Panini (5th century BC?) mentioned the Damanavadi Sangha about which almost nothing is known. The present writer has suggested that the ubiquitous Sudda Yauda Damana of the authentic Persepolis Fortification tablets, (also known as Sudda Yauda Saramana) was Suddhodana, the father of Gautama Buddha.

Sedda Saramana of the tablets appears to have been Siddhartha Gautama.

Of greater importance may be the Persepolis tablet No PF 79 which belonged to Sedda Saramana. Garrison and Root note that PFS 79 always occurs alone in the tablets that it seals which shows that it belonged to a very important functionary. The five-pointed dentate crown of the hero of PFS 79 may remind one of the Panchalas. It was worn by Darius-I himself and only three other vassal kings.

https://html.scribdassets.com/3k8xunnk8w61wd1d/images/6-4849238e8d.jpg

The bird-headed winged lion creatures
that the hero holds may be significant.

Similar to the Hero and Tigers in IVC.

Is Darius "taking" a Bactrian bird, or "defeating" it?

Are those the Simorgh or Griffon?

In a general overview:

There was considerable socio-cultural diversity in the Harappan era; the rulers were
not all ‘Deva’s or ‘Sura’s. A striking feature of Rakhigarhi was that here the roads did not follow the square grid pattern typical of many cities but radiated from a central zone. This may illustrate one cultural difference between the Devas and the Danavas. A mature Harappan era cemetery has been found at Rakhigarhi having eight interments. The grave pits were often brick-lined, with one wooden coffin as in H-37 Cemetery at Harappa. This cemetery is of great importance in DNA studies as few human remains from the mature Harappan period have been found. B. B. Lal writes about the ethnic diversity;

The Indus population, particularly of the cities, was a cosmopolitan one. It included Mediterraneans, Proto-Australoids, Alpines, and Mongoloids. In keeping with such a mixed population, there was a wide variety of religious practices.

Many sites of the Indus-Saŝaswati era had ‘Daro’ name-endings. In Akkadian language ‘Duru’ means ‘fortified city’. This suggests that the root of the term Druhyu may be Duru. The Druhyus are mentioned in many passages of the Rigveda; they are often mentioned together with the Yadus, Turvasas, Anus and Purus suggesting that these are the famous five peoples of the Rigveda. The Druhyu king and his allies were defeated by king Sudas in the famous ‘Ten kings battle’.

King Mandhatr is said to have driven the Druhyu king Angara out of the Punjab. Pargiter wrote that the next Druhyu king, Gandhara went to the Northwest and settled there. They have been criticized in many texts but a proper study reveals that they played a crucial role in the 2nd millennium BC. M. Witzel wrongly considers the Druhyus to be akin to the aboriginal Dasas and Dasyus and overlooks that they correspond to the Derusiaeans of Herodotus who, in the 6th century BC were the subjects of king Kurash (Cyrus).

Why exactly Visvamitra,once the chief priest of Sudas, became his great enemy is not clear. Sudas and Visvamitra had previously conquered two minor native kingdoms and then Sudas started planning to subjugate the entire land west of the Parusni (Ravi). At this stage he sacked Visvamitra and appointed Vasishtha as the chief priest. Visvamitra led the alliance of ten kings against Sudas and lost. One of the losers, not mentioned in the main hymns was Pramaganda of Kikata. He was a wealthy ruler. RV 3.53.14 runs as follows:

Among the Kikatas what do thy cattle? They pour no milky draught, they heat no caldron. Bring thou to us the wealth of Pramaganda; give up to us, O Maghavan, the low−born.

The name Pramaganda is usually split as Pra-Maganda and Maganda is likened to Magadha
but as the Sanskrit teŝm ‘Pramatha’ means ‘smiter’ an alternative approach may be to split it
as Prama-Ganda. This does not lead to any inconsistency as Ganda resembles Gandhara, the name of the famous Druhyu King. Sudas had defeated the Druhyus.

Thus king Gandhara of the Puranas may be the same as the Rigvedic Pramaganda of Kikata/Magadha. Witzel blindly accepts the Jonesean notion of Kikata to be a region of Bihar and mocks at Talagheri’s reference to Pramaganda of Magadha as the hymn in question, RV 3.53.14, speaks of Kurukshetra and surroundings.

Rakhigarhi was ‘the easternmost capital of the Harappan civilization’ where Pramaganda was active although he may have been a great king whose area of operation was much wider and included Gandhara. The Druhyus are said to have perished in the waters which may be a metaphorical way of saying that they left India in boats. Pramaganda is given the mysterious epithet ‘naichasakha’ which may have the sense of ‘low-born’. It is interesting that Sargon the great, Nabo-Na’id and the Nanda kings
are also said to be ‘low born’.

A couple of his other articles:

Narayana and Lakshmi in the Dholavira Signboard (https://www.academia.edu/41454801/N%C4%80R%C4%80YA%C5%85A_AND_LAK%C5%9EM%C4%AA_IN_THE_DHOLAVIRA_SIGNBOARD_AND_PROTO_LAK%C5%9EM%C4%AA_A ND_NARASIMHA_IN_THE_BRONZE_AGE)

Bharata War (https://www.academia.edu/75883593/The_Date_of_the_Bharata_War_from_Kalibangan_Seals_and_the_Role_of_the_Aryans_in_This_War)

And his case for the hump-backed Zebu (https://www.academia.edu/42836533/THE_ZEBU_LEITMOTIF_OF_THE_INDUS_SARASWATI_CULTURE):

Magadha which is a synonym of the Sanskrit term Maha Uksha. This is the parent word of Melukkha which designated the Harappan cities.

https://html.scribdassets.com/8twgbfqpa87t1sb6/images/1-d34f606ea2.png

The inscription can be read straightaway as Tri-Śiva which echoes Teshub of the Hittites.

The name Teshub links Sanskrit to the deepest layers of pre-history.

The term Magadha (Mah-Gud in Sumerian) stands for the ‘great bull’ and its Sanskrit counterpart, ‘Maha Uksha’ is the parent word for Melukkha - a name of the Indus-Saraswati cities. Thus at some stage, Magadha may have had a similar connotation.

From another paper on X, Phoenicians as Vedic Panis (https://www.academia.edu/42794765/MITRA_VI%C5%9AV%C4%80MITRA_HARI%C5%9ACHANDRA_AND_TRI%C5%9AA%C5%83KU_IN_THE_SEALS), and for the Kassites:

They worshiped the Vedic gods Indash, Suryash and Maruttash.
Their first king Gandash seems to be Pramaganda of the Rigveda
(iii. 53, 14).

https://html.scribdassets.com/8cxqjw8mdc8htlq4/images/17-20ebcc99e8.jpg

The ornate leaf symbol has the frequency of 42 and the triple strokes and horn at its top(as in the Vŗş symbol) reminds one of
Soma who was concieved as a white bull.

He thinks the underlying language was something like "Sumerian Akkadian Dravidian Sanskrit". Numerous examples of his Sanskrit interpretations.

Unfortunately, this leads him to the conclusion that what we know of Buddhism is a Nepalese Forgery (https://www.academia.edu/695254/The_Dawn_of_Religions_in_Afghanistan_Seistan_Gandhara_and_the_Personal_Seals_of_Gotama_Buddha_and_Zo roaster):

The primacy of the North-west is shown by that the great Asoka was Diodotus-I of Bactria.

I don't think we attempted to say that Nepal was an ancient, teeming metropolis, of course it is not going to rival IVC with seals and commercial artifacts. We can say that its Kiratic kings appear to be fallout from the Rg Veda, and Buddhism derives from a commentary by a single person, it is not a comprehensive review of multiple semi-related cultures. If anything, Ashoka was a recipient, an absorber, who promoted it to the national and international level. He did not get it from Nepal; I think it may have been Orissa. Every time someone turns to this "northwest primacy", they have overlooked Orissa, which obliterates pre-Ashokan Buddhism which had already made the Amaravati Stupa.

Buddhism and Jainism both originated in Bihar because the founders realized it was a suitable area for rice-begging; it had surplus. Therefor, the Sramana or wandering mendicant lifestyle was both possible and not a burden to the inhabitants. And again, you cannot really use ca. 500 B. C. E. as a root explanation for something two thousand years older.

Just because he may enter a few blind alleys, "Bull" is still a reasonable contender for the glyph. In parallel, the OIT from Punjeet Gupta is Astrological (https://www.academia.edu/53378053/_Out_of_ancient_Harappan_India_East_to_West_2_Harappan_society_Part_1_ancient_Astronomy_Sumer_Harapp an_seal_of_Adi_Yogi_Avadhoot_Datt_and_Mata_Lalitha_of_ancient_Tantra_tradition_DGHC_Part_6).

He says the "Shiva Pasupati" is Dattatreya (https://www.academia.edu/53378053/_Out_of_ancient_Harappan_India_East_to_West_2_Harappan_society_Part_1_ancient_Astronomy_Sumer_Harapp an_seal_of_Adi_Yogi_Avadhoot_Datt_and_Mata_Lalitha_of_ancient_Tantra_tradition_DGHC_Part_6) and:

Goddess with two tigers and two sugarcane plants Adi Mata Tripura Sundari or Ma Lalitha is strongly associated with Adi Avadhoot sect and tradition is still alive in Nepal and all over North and South India.

Avadhut = Dattatreya, and, the archaic names for Lalita may be Hingula or Renuka. These all push the Rg Veda envelope, by not being actually mentioned in it, but, fairly reliably being jammed back in time and space that they probably were non-Aryan local divinities of some kind.

This guy references an IVC specimen found in Mesopotamia as a star chart or astrological legend:

https://html.scribdassets.com/9kgt7d92v49drhn9/images/8-c990696f9d.png

Mrig-Sheera Nakshatra; Tiger as Mula Nakshatra; Buffalo the vehicle for deity of Deathlike poisonous snake as Vasuki of Rudra; Garud represent the Vishnu and Rhinoceros as the immortal domain.

God is nothing but a spiritually enlightened form of human being.

These Vedic celestial track depicting various deities related to 1) trinity of mortal world (three males; Brahma, Rudr, Mahesh; & related female counterparts of Sharda, Sati, and Vaishnavi respectively) as well as 2) one male and one female representative of
Divine immortal world.

Yogi is shown in the seal; sitting on a swing with traditional sitting platorm (chauki); hanging with help of two strands (symbolic of space travel during Samadhi). The Yogi is adorned with blended headgear of Adi Dev (primordial God) having power to manifest all six deities (compact power, Advait, Bindu, owner of all, master power of everything in cosmos) of Indian pantheon
(Brahma, Rudr,Vishnu; Saraswati, Sati and Vaishnavi). This conglomerated form is called AdiNarayan/ Adi Purush and Adi Narayani/ Adi Ma/ Amma in Vedic and related later Indian sects.

Another thing we may observe is cattle used as food in IVC and the Vedas; at some later point, it was established that you may not kill them at all. There is nothing particularly vegetarian about the older societies. Later Dharmic development may very well suggest "limiting" the use of meat, but I am not sure it is "strictly prohibited" by anything from scripture.

This Astrological study has not really uplifted "Bull" in any remarkable way, such as we might find by rolling back to the Age of Taurus.

What catches our attention there is, for instance, the ancient temple of Aswan, Egypt, is aligned with Spica (Alpha Virginis, or the wheat or rice stalk held in her hand). This is observational, and, of course, it would take centuries for anyone to realize something was amiss. In the west, this results in the "magic equinox" being "fixed in time" so that the physical stars rotate around it. In India, it is simply that Spica is "fixed" and determines the new year inversely:

The starting point for the nakshatras according to Vedas is "Krittika" (it has been argued because the Pleiades may have started the year at the time the Vedas were compiled, presumably at the vernal equinox), but, in more recent compilations, the start of the nakshatras list is the point on the ecliptic directly opposite to the star Spica called Chitrā in Sanskrit, which would be Ashwinī, a part of the modern constellation Aries, and these compilations therefore may have been compiled during the centuries when the sun was passing through the area of the constellation Aries at the time of the vernal equinox.

So, yes, when the Krttika-Pleiades no longer marked the equinox, then a concrete definition was imposed, which disregards equinoxes. You just watch the stars in their actual courses. If the timing of the seasons becomes inconvenient, you make a correction by adding extra days to the year.

Reasonably, the Age of Aries means marking the year by the region opposite Spica (one of the more powerful stars).

Comparatively, the Persian Royal Stars (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_stars) would have already been obsolete by the time of their first mention--Aldebaran in Taurus had not marked the vernal equinox for over a thousand years.

Since they are recorded after 1,000 B. C. E., there is a decent case for them matching the Creatures of Ezekiel (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Living_creatures_(Bible)):

William D. Mounce noted a belief that the living creatures may have been associated with the four principal (or fixed) signs of the zodiac (Taurus, Leo, Scorpio, and Aquarius), but other scholars have doubted this interpretation.

"Michael is the 'lion-headed', Raphael the "human-headed", Uriel the "bull-headed", and Gabriel the "eagle-headed".

"Eagle" = Aquila = Aquarius, while the Scorpion and Man are interchangeable.

Uriel, Tauriel, Bull El, appears to be the main Canaanite deity.

I have long been of the opinion that it is this group which shows the old understanding between east and west.

Originally, the Bull would have shown its primacy, and then in the Age of Aries you would have been shocked and flabbergasted and forced to figure out what was happening.

I have no reason to suspect that anyone previously said the equinox had been marked by Gemini or any other star.

Whereas the very beginning of any of these ancient writing systems features a Bull, and, Aswan is among the first of any temples of this kind.

This makes the traditional Krishna's Death Chart very cool, but, I am going to disallow it because it is the arbitrary declaration of a 500s astronomy text. Yes--it is a good text in that its methods are accurate within about a 24-48 hours of what we can get from a computer today, but that does not mean that using this calculation for a historical event is correct.

If we think of major historical bounds then there was an Ice Age, which mostly went out something like 8,000 B. C. E., and then even if it was not quite planet-wide, there was an era of Great Drought ca. 2,200-1,900 B. C. E., which is believed to have played a significant role in eradicating the IVC as well as the original civilizations in China, Mesopotamia, and Egypt.

At this same point we discovered the arising of an Eagle from an Iranian and/or mixed northwestern source, which seems to totally change the production of IVC Seals, and then there are the battles of the Rg Veda which seem to be fairly specifically against this. There is some intrigue about its own Sages switching sides, but then if we consider that area then we find Avestan and Zoroaster must have this as background.

By using the term "scripture" for Sanskrit, this has a very precise meaning. It is simply uncanny that the same Rg Veda is identical everywhere in India. As the IVC glyphs appear mostly unchanged for 700 years, the Veda as a spoken transmission did the same until was eventually compiled by Veda Vyasa. However the older commentaries inform us there were *two* Atharva Vedas. The one kept in India is Angiras Atharva Veda, or Atharvangiras.

The other one that has no attested copies is Bhrgu Atharva Veda. And so from the Vedic view, we have reason to believe that Sages of the Bhrgu line having the dominant view of deity Varuna went northwest and mixed with the Eagle, so to speak. Although Zoroaster is a Fire Philosophy, one of the differences I have found is that its flame is supposed to be "clean", whereas the Indian version is about "offerings", meaning you throw stuff in it.

I don't like the translation "sacrifice" because that sounds like you are going to stick a knife in something, or else, destroy something of considerable actual value.

My personal interest has an attached value judgment, which could perhaps broadly be classed as "Yogacara" which allows for pre-Buddhist origin, such as for example the very beginning of Yajnawalkya's Brhadaranyaka Upanishad is about Symbolic Sacrifice. Buddhism is like a fine-tuning of this as summarized in the expression "You do not understand Samadhi", as would at least be depicted in the Astrological thesis of IVC.

"Yoga" might be a way of saying something like "realizing the Vedas", because they haven't got a subject, they aren't about anything. There is no "story". Sometimes there are "scenes", such as the performance of a battle, which is why putting together the whole package of everything that happened takes a bit of work.

One exception is Pururavas and Urvashi, which is the oldest love story in Sanskrit, maybe in the world.

Well, as soon as you understand the material to be cumulative, then what is strange is that this story is found in the last or newest book (i. e., has nearly Paninian format), but the event must have taken place prior to the first/oldest book.

There is a similarity to "Rudra" (noisy, crying) if Pururavas is a combination meaning:

Man of Many Cries

or

Mind of Many Cries

Pururavas is semi-Adamic, except, again, we do not think he is quite incarnate because Urvashi is a Nymph.

"This" or "he" is ancestral to one of the Vedic kings, and so it must be completely subjective, because there is no way it even suggests a "first man" like a progenitor. It can only be "accepted" as a paramount figure in a spiritual lineage.

The implication, to me at least, is that the story must have existed in prose form until it was eulogized.

So the Veda, itself, isn't quite "about" anything, but I would argue that the commentarial explanation as well as yoga are indicated by the expression "Atharvan". It's not a job you can be assigned, like you might be given a job to memorize Riks or Samas and that would be what you did and why the recording is good. "Atharvan" is the chief source of inspiration because it is also the realization. During a period of time, it was possible to become a Sage, which we say means trance possession by Agni. In that state you are able to utter divine hymns. You do not make them, it flows from the deity. That is what the Vedas are "about" or what one is trying to "do".

Then, if we say the period of Sages "ended", we are no longer at a point where we might need to add to the 1,000+ Hymns of Rg Veda. And so Yoga continues as something like the "manner of Atharva Veda", which is the personal, portable version. The "rites" were intended for a Householder or Priest. Yoga is inherently unorthodox while simultaneously utilizing "Atharvangiras".

The non-scriptural Hingula Mata is unusually pivotal in the turn of events, because, firstly, she requires the Warriors to become Weavers, and sends them to Gujarat, which appears to be what IVC as a whole did when the early sites collapsed.

I thought she must be an important Cinnabar Mine, but, no, she is the Tika Mark of Sati herself.

What that means is that concerning any of the Indian Sati Pitha systems, she is the first one, the top of the head, the Head Chakra of India so to speak.

The view of Bull and Astrology is perhaps summarized as:

https://html.scribdassets.com/9kgt7d92v49drhn9/images/10-4d92448e71.jpg

for the side-by-side "Pasupatis":

1) Mohenjo-Daro seal m-1181 of Avadhoot mantra 2) Mehrgarh seal(Avadhoot audience by Avatar Parashurama)

The Avadhoot and celestial pathway of spiritual liberaton (moksha) is depicted by individual animals like that in Mohenjo-Daro seal of Avadhoot with different animals (whereas a composite animal is a mix-up of many animals) that make celestial Vedic Nakshatras of Mrig-shira ( deer); Adra (human face); Mula (tigerpaws); Purv-ashadha (elephant) and Indian trinity; Vishnu (Garud); Yama (Buffalo); Rudra (snake Vasuki); Narayan Dham the domain of immortality(Rhinoceros).This celestial knowledge (ancient humankind's astronomy) was then made available for use and modification to Sumerians, Greeks, and Romans. Thus, the sacred celestial path (Samadhi Moksh Marg of Kriya Yog) knowledge was sent out of ancient Harrapan India to the humankind and laid the foundation of future astronomy, astrology, space travel, sea travel and maritime activity using astronomy.

That's deep, it says the IVC is showing a non-Vedic character speaking to Parasurama, which closely physically matches what we just said about Hingula Mata.

He says of the Goolar or Audumbara (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ficus_racemosa) Tree:

Related with Adi Yogi Avadhoot tradition in general and not with a single individual;

If this is at all correct, it would suggest the Yoga or Dattatreya explanation--which relies on at least some of the Vedic mythos--is older than some of the events or presumed compositions in the Vedas. That is not impossible, if the hymns are similarly speaking to an audience that was already familiar with the content.

Are those the main characters of the seals? Avadhoot and Shakti?

Being conservative, I can't say that they *are* what is in there. If one is to say "the seal is the mantra" this should be clarified.

shaberon

23rd December 2023, 10:05

So far, the interesting exterior evidence is, I think, the Meluhha Merchants on the Akkadian seal. IVC hasn't got pictures of Merchants. And so the scene is basically Akkadian style except it looks like a stylistic choice to copy an IVC Goat.

In that case it would be an Animal Hieroglyph.

I can understand Shalmaneser III perhaps liking the Unicorn with no idea where it came from, but it looks to me like the Akkadian was using the Hieroglyph.

Although a Bull is another obvious IVC picture, it may also have a glyph.

Suggestions for the most common glyph and its suggested usage have been:

Tree -- Agricultural Magic

Rim-of-Jar: scribal receipt on mercantilism

Bull -- Astrological Yoga

In the last cluster of pictures posted, we find a pair of Bulls surrounding a ring or sphere. Above is a character with branched horns unknown from the art, holding two snakes. Author takes this to be Rudra and Vasuki.

The next line I thought was very telling because it shows some kind of main character in one case with the common glyph. Here, he also has two attendants. Author claims one to be Parasurama and the character to be Dattatreya. Character is most famous for the cluster of individual animals which may be a star chart around Orion, or they may represent guilds, or are mythological symbols.

Parasurama is not really an avatar due to the avatar idea not being present in the Vedas.

I am trying to neither assume nor deny the seals are Sanskrit.

It cannot quite be avoided to examine the Indian lore that was most likely in place by ca. 1,500 B. C. E. when the use of IVC seals expired. This may only be the Rg Veda, Atharva Veda, and, debatably, parts of Ramayana, but that is already a lot of stuff. Most of the basis can be retro-fitted to around 2,000 B. C. E., and then we cannot be sure how much older the language may be. There is nothing in the Rg Veda before its own beginning, it has no ancient kingdoms, prior prophets, or anything like this. It goes about as far as perhaps referring to the grandparents of its active characters. So, we are nearly forced to conclude that a recognizable portion of the language and lore must have been in use at the same time as the height of the use of seals.

This will be more about what that is, rather than posting seals.

Seeing the common glyph combines with what appears to be someone's head, then, Man with Bull Head is a little more familiar than Tree Head or Jar Head. However I would not be surprised if these things did not have at least a dual meaning. There is a way to say "best one". Like if I say "Best Mare" it immediately means Samjna, unless I am prepared to argue why one is better than her. So the glyph might mean "best" and when the category is animals, means a bull, when plants, a or some kind of tree; it might be flexible. Especially if there are not that many glyphs.

I bumped in to a vocabulary builder from the "Astrological thesis".

Reconsidering old translations, from the previous page there was Wilson for VI.27.7:

bright prancing horses

where instead I quoted Griffiths on Meluhha (https://www.meluhha.com/rv/verse.pl?v=%3Cb%3E06.027.07a%3C/b%3E&acc=no&q=6.27&lang=ved):

two red Steers

for the original:

gā́vāv aruṣā́

Which is aruna, "rosy color of dawn" and a plural of "gau".

It is so obviously not "horses", that is dejectionable.

The term I expect for "Bull" is "Vrsabha"--and so it was informative to see "Uksha", which in the oldest books is correct for VI.64.5 (https://www.wisdomlib.org/hinduism/book/rig-veda-english-translation/d/doc834416.html) and VII.79.1 (https://www.wisdomlib.org/hinduism/book/rig-veda-english-translation/d/doc835243.html) as the "oxen" of Ushas (Dawn).

These have the senses:

oxen (wealth to your worshippers)

she has shed light with her lustrous oxen

It is also found in VII.83.11 (https://www.wisdomlib.org/hinduism/book/rig-veda-english-translation/d/doc836386.html), Agni "eater of oxen" or rather "having oxen as food".

One may almost suspect the etymologies:

go --> cow

uksha --> ox

And finally here we find it in a very syncretic sense in the late book X.31.8 (https://www.wisdomlib.org/hinduism/book/rig-veda-english-translation/d/doc838856.html):

naitāvad enā paro anyad asty ukṣā sa dyāvāpṛthivī bibharti | tvacam pavitraṃ kṛṇuta svadhāvān yad īṃ sūryaṃ na harito vahanti ||

“Not such (is their power); there is another greater than they; the creator, he sustains heaven and earth; possessed of might, he makes a pure skin, before his horses bear it to the sun.”

Sayana says:

...the creator: ukṣa = liṭ, the bull, the sprinkler of seed, i.e., the creator of people, hiraṇyagarbha; extremely subtle, in the form of wind, consisting of the liṅga (i.e., the subtle body that accompanies the soul in its migration, not being destroyed at death, when the outer gross body is destroyed) entering the waters supports heaven and earth; before his horses bear it to the sun: i.e., before creation; the creator took upon himself a bodily form, before creating other forms.

E. ukṣ to wet

So it also has the meaning "to sprinkle", subsequently, "to consecrate".

Sayana has just said Uksha the Bull is Hiranyagarbha, the Mundane Egg.

Yes, it is a late Puranic-type comment being applied to the much older Veda--is it more explanatory, or a mistake or sectarian split?

Let's see. The hymn appears to have an antiquated author:

Ṛṣi (sage/seer): kavaṣa ailūṣaḥ [kavaṣa ailūṣa];
Devatā (deity/subject-matter): viśvedevā

Name of a Ṛiṣi (kavaṣa ailūṣa); Ṛgveda 7.18.12.

Name of a Ṛṣi (son of Ilūṣa by a slave girl, and author of several hymns in the tenth Maṇḍala of the Ṛg-veda; when the Ṛṣis were performing a sacrifice on the banks of the Sarasvatī he was expelled as an impostor and as unworthy to drink of the water, being the son of a slave; it was only when the gods had shown him special favour that he was readmitted to their society), [Ṛg-veda vii, 18, 12; Aitareya-brāhmaṇa ii, 19]

In other words, it looks like the same Kavasa in Books Seven and Ten, which is not unworkable.

Many of the hymns are "split", or change subject or addressee. Shortly before the appearance of "uksha", there is:

Aryaman (https://www.wisdomlib.org/definition/aryaman), giver of cattle in Verse Four.

Five:

“May this (our praise) be accessible like the earth at dawn, when the glorious (gods) assemble in their might; may the Vājas, the dispensers of happiness, come to us, soliciting the laudation of this (their) adorer.”

The "dispensers" (?):

Vāja (वाज).—A son of Sudhanvā, whose father was Aṅgiras. It is mentioned in Ṛgveda, Maṇḍala 1, Aṣṭaka, 1, Sūkta 111, that Sudhanvā had three sons named Ṛbhu, Vibhvan and Vāja.

Vāja (वाज) refers to a “domestic cock” and is a synonym (another name) for the Kukkuṭa

all birds are Vāja (winged)

Vedic vāja strength

Vaja (https://www.wisdomlib.org/definition/vaja#hinduism) includes food, a feather, a horse, and so on, multiple uses already in the Rg Veda.

This will become significant in a moment--"Earth at dawn":

uṣasām iva kṣā

This also has "asuras" as lords or deities.

In this translation it is Bull 1--gauh, and Bull 2--uksha starting from Verse Six:

This Bull's most gracious far-extended favour existed first of all in full abundance.
By his support they are maintained in common who in the Asura's mansion dwell together.

What was the tree, what wood, in sooth, produced it, from which they fashioned forth the Earth and Heaven?
These Twain stand fast and wax not old for ever: these have sung praise to many a day and morning.

Not only here is this: more is beyond us. He is the Bull, the Heaven's and Earth's supporter.
With power divine he makes his skin a filter, when the Bay Coursers bear him on as Surya.

He passes o' er the broad earth like a Stega: he penetrates the world as Wind the mist-cloud.
He, balmed with oil, near Varuna and Mitra, like Agni in the wood, hath shot forth splendour.

When suddenly called the cow that erst was barren, she, self-protected, ended all her troubles.
Earth, when the first son sprang from sire and mother, cast up the gami, that which men were seeking.

"Vaji" is "the courser" of the last line:

To Nrsad's son they gave the name of Kainva, and he the brown-hued courser won the treasure.
For him dark-coloured streamed the shining udder: none made it swell for him. Thus Order willed it.

"The Bull", if anything, grammatically may refer to the "lord" of Verse Four:

Svapati (स्वपति):—[=sva-pati] [from sva] m. (sva-). o°’s own lord, [Ṛg-veda]

An unspecified deity; any of them.

Such seems to be the administrator of "dravina" or "wealth" which is the intent here--regulated by Rta, meditation, spirituality, and generosity.

These have been given as equivalent translations using "Uksha":

the creator, he sustains heaven and earth

the Bull, the Heaven's and Earth's supporter

Uksha dadhar prithwim utadyam is an inscrutable verse used by DS to say uksha = sun, whereas its more generic meaning is more like tirtha and water. Or (https://tulsidas-ram-books.weebly.com/uploads/2/1/7/4/21746472/the_revelation_of_creation.pdf):

The Uksha or Rishabh is a medicinal herb found in the Himalayan range of
mountains in the north of India. It is said to so powerful that it makes a man as potent as a
bull; it is said to improve fertility and manliness, virility and masculinity. It is also known
as the legendary Som plant in ancient texts.

The Samhita (https://www.rarebooksocietyofindia.org/book_archive/196174216674_10155804644996675.pdf) likens the Maruts to Uksha in I.87.2, I.64.2, I.85.2, V.52.3, as it is in further places, for "libations" etc. as resembling rain. We see that it has one dedicated section of text, only, and in other areas is just an accessory, using a generic meaning.

The Uksha in its section is involved with:

dyavaprithvi bibharti

which is a dual deity, SkyEarth. Another example would be Mitravaruna.

The phrase however is rare; "bibharti" is in Atharva Veda Prithvi Suktam (https://avadhutashram.com/prabhuji-food-distribution-program/). In a study of it, the term is translated as Nurturing (https://businesseconomics.in/atharvaveda-theverses-environmental-sustenance). So the Bull is "supporting" or "sustaining" by "nourishing", rather than "creating".

It also comes up in IX.83 (https://www.meluhha.com/rv/find.pl?q=9.83&lang=ved&acc=no) (a Soma hymn) which has a massive occult commentary (https://lakshminarayanlenasia.com/articles/Gods_of_the_Veda.pdf) on an un-copiable page. That one is worth spending some time on.

It is important, being the only place that suggests "Bull". The translations are:

“The chief sun of the dawn (the Soma) shines forth; sprinkler (of water), he nourishes the worlds, wishing (to have them) food; by his intelligence the intelligent build, the pitṛs, the beholders of men, support the germ (of vegetation).”

and:

The foremost spotted Steer hath made the Mornings shine, and yearning after strength sustains all things that be.
By his high wisdom have the mighty Sages wrought: the Fathers who behold mankind laid down the germ,

for the original:

árūrucad uṣásaḥ pṛ́šnir agriyá ukṣā́ bibharti bhúvanāni vājayúḥ
māyāvíno mamire asya māyáyā nṛcákṣasaḥ pitáro gárbham ā́ dadhuḥ

The relevant expression is "Prsni", "dappled", meaning "many-hued".

Prsni (https://www.wisdomlib.org/definition/prishni), Mother of the Maruts.

In Atharva Veda (https://www.wisdomlib.org/hinduism/essay/women-in-the-atharva-veda-samhita/d/doc1146266.html):

The enlightenment of the undisclosed universe is attributed to this Pṛśni or Āditya. Pṛśni is also spoken of as causing rain. From these references, Pṛśni seems to be a male deity. But, in certain references, femininity is also observed in connection with Pṛśni. Maruts are called pṛśnimātṛn, i.e. those whose mother is Pṛśni. Here, Sāyaṇācārya interprets Pṛśni as mādhyamikā vāk. Thus, Pṛśni seems to be a female one too.

From the above you can make the rough equivalent that sprinkler-of-water = Best Spotted Steer.

It would also be meaningful in Buddhism. The "germ" scales up, i. e. seed in nature, embryo in the womb, Bodhisattva or Buddhist Disciple. Garbha. Womb if they were honest. One might even question if the Pitrs "behold" men, or, if humans, nara, are simply visualized by them, projected as an image.

Here are some more references:

The Mahabharata relates how the Vasus, led by "Prithu" (presumably here a male form of Prithvi), were enjoying themselves in the forest, when the wife of Prabhasa (also referred as Dyu) spotted an excellent cow and persuaded her husband Prabhasa to steal it, which Prabhasa did with the agreement and aid of Prithu and his other brothers. Unfortunately for the Vasus, the cow was owned by the sage Vashishta who learned through his ascetic powers that the Vasus had stolen it and immediately cursed them to be born on earth as mortals. Vashishta responded to pleading by the Vasus by promising that seven of them would be free of earthly life within a year of being born and that only Prabhasa would pay the full penalty.

The Five Cows or Gomata are also the Senses, with the "excellent" Prsni or Kamadenhu being Cintamani or "Wish-granting".

From a post on Ila and Apri Hymn (https://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?115660-Nirakara-and-Shentong-Buddhism-Tara-Sadhanas-Sanskrit-culture&p=1444945&viewfull=1#post1444945):

Vayu is the calf of Ila.

Ila is the rain and the milk above Bharati and Sarasvati, who flow on her stream, the last being visible and five-fold; when the milk becomes luminous and multicolored, that cow is Prsni.

This is taken from Gavesanam, or, on the Track of the Cow (https://books.google.com/books/about/Gave%E1%B9%A3a%E1%B9%87am_Or_On_the_Track_of_the_Cow.html?id=-z9W4HXtLH0C), which has several viewable pages. This concerns two Lakshmis, Sri and Bhu, or Ila and Bharati, having to do with cultivated nature and raw nature.

A tract called Suparna (http://ignca.nic.in/Asi_data/36515.pdf) says the Veda discusses Srshti Vidya at two levels, macrocosm and microcosm of creation. This, of course, underlies the entire scheme, such as two kinds of suns (visible and mental), two kinds of Earth Mother (natural and tended), and so on. There is always the knowledge that manifestation is the outcome of an ethereal process, and, viewed on its own, is illusory and full of suffering.

It has Gau, Uksha, Prsni, which may be a ranking scheme.

Entangled here is a rare class of beings who are "fusions".

All three main male deities fused into Dattatreya, who may be in the IVC seals with "his mantra", but what is that? There are in fact numerous Dattatreya Mantras (https://www.prophet666.com/2010/07/dattatreya-mantras.html).

His father Atri seems to be one of the middle Vedic Rishis:

The hymn 5.44 of the Rigveda in Atri Mandala is considered by scholars such as Geldner to be the most difficult riddle hymn in all of the Rigveda.

While the fifth mandala is attributed to Atri and his associates, sage Atri is mentioned or credited with numerous other verses of the Rigveda in other Mandalas, such as 10.137.4.

and is also in the Ramayana. This Epic could perhaps be in the "Late Vedic Period" rather than after the end of compilation. At any point of time, someone could have referred to "three Vedas", meaning "three knowledges", of hymns, songs, and rituals. All that means is stuff separated by categories--not necessarily "complete" or "final", let alone written.

As far as I know, Dattatreya is not really in the scriptures.

When you ask Indians if he is in the Vedas, they typically answer from Ramayana and the Upanishads. Generally for the recension (https://komilla.com/fest-guru-purnima.html):

Ved Vyasa is regarded as the Guru of all Gurus and the Guru Purnima is dedicated to him. Vyasa edited the four Vedas, wrote the 18 Puranas, the Mahabharata, and the Srimad Bhagavata. He also taught Dattatreya, who spread Vyasa’s knowledge to the other gurus.

who is conflated with:

Krishna Dwaipaayana, the son of the illustrious sage Parasara, who is considered the father of Vedic astrology, for it is held widely that it was he who composed the famous astrological text ‘Brihat Parasara Hora Sastra’. Parasara was the grandson of Vasishta, the greatest among sages.

This second one truly "wrote" Mahabharata and at least influenced Srimad Bhagavata Purana. The original Vyasa transmitted "the" Purana or Purana Samhita, splitting it among three disciples, which eventually grew to eighteen major ones that mostly contradict each other, so, no, that is not the status of "scripture", but, rather, attempts to explain and provide context for it.

If Dattatreya is "guru of gurus" at an age that would include him within scriptural events, then Veda Vyasa cannot be "guru of gurus" since he is much later and essentially makes a library.

His mother Anasuya is the sister of Kapila, the founder of Samkhya or "enumeration".

It is perplexing, because Atri is mind-born and they stride across the Manvantaras:

Anasūyā was his wife in both lives. In the first, she bore him three sons, Datta, Durvāsas and Soma; in the second, she had two additional children, a son by name Aryaman and a daughter called Amalā.

Attr, "one who eats".

According to devotees (https://www.sreedattavaibhavam.org/datta-in-upanishads-puranas/):

Dattatreya tatwa is AVYAKTHA, NIRGUNA, NIRAAKAARA, NIRANJANA, NISHKRIYA, PARABRAHMA, SAGUNA SWAROOPA and it is SHREEMANNARAAYANA, PARAMESHA TATWA. The Upanishads are clearly telling that, “DATTA VEEJASTHAM JAGATH SARVAM” …means total Universe is Datta swaroopa.

Nepal has an ancient Dattatreya temple on anasuya parvata.

The Tripura-rahasya refers to the disciple Parasurama finding Dattatreya meditating on Gandhamadana mountain, Near Rameswaram, Tamil Nadu.

He has little to do with the Vedas, but with the Honey Doctrine laced throughout them.

That bears superficial resemblance to "Atharvan", or, that an explanatory power was prior to the specific hymns produced by it.

Shandilya Upanishad (https://www.wisdomlib.org/hinduism/book/thirty-minor-upanishads/d/doc217054.html) and Dattatreya Upanishad are part of Atharva Veda. To Shandilya, he is Mahesvara (as well as Brahman and Atman), and there are Three Vedas.

For centuries, most Indians were illiterate, had little to do with the Vedas, and were raised on spoken Puranic stories. With these, we are lucky if it makes any sense. One of the worst fallacies applied by scholars to kings and gurus alike is "assume an average term of twenty years". A king might be there for one or seventy. There may be gaps. Some of the "generations" may have been cotemporaneous people. This mess was compared to the information on Dattatreya in a large article by Shirvaikar 2009 (http://www.vvshirvaikar.de/Dattatreya/PART%20I%20-%20DATING%20DATTATREYA%20BIRTH.htm):

Puranas are silent on chronology however the above analytical studies especially the corrected lists of the Solar and Lunar dynasty kings enabled construction of a Chronological frame which when used with various other information from the above sources leads to approximately 2450 BC as the most plausible birth time of Dattatreya and conclusively proves the Puranic birth legend to be a myth composed by the wise probably to cement the traditional conflicts between Vaishnavaites and Shaivaites.

In fact it has been shown that the entire story of Dattatreya’s birth to Atri and Anasuya is a myth. Atri is a gotra or lineage to which different persons belonged in different times and ages but the Puranas call all of them by the generic name “Atri Rishi” with wife’s name as Anasuya.

Hindu readers are conditioned to consider ancient texts to be holy and their contents sacrosanct. Very few are bold enough to express doubts about even obviously absurd or conflicting parts of the texts for the fear they may be committing a sin or sometimes because these texts explicitly contain threats of dire consequences of different kinds of hell if any doubt is expressed about them. However, a careful reading of these texts, especially the epics and the Puranas will show glaring absurdities and contradictions within the texts, with other works and with reality.

It will be seen from the forthcoming discussions that except for Rigveda, the other sources have been subject to many spurious changes and additions at different stages in time.

These analyses have established that only Rigveda Samhita has remained largely uncorrupted while in the case of both epics redactors have made alterations in the original texts and added a very large volume of new text. Unfortunately not many people know or bother about these redactions and take the texts at face value with great piousness. Regarding Puranas, all the 18 Puranas of today have evolved from an original single Purana Samhita by Maharshi Vyasa each with its own variations from the original.

In Atharvaveda V (XI 7, 24) also it is mentioned that there did exist a Purana. Maharshi Vyasa must have composed the original Purana Samhita based on this Vedic Purana.

According to Vayu and Matsya Puranas this Purana Samhita was the basis of the 18 Puranas of today. These new Puranas are of sectarian nature but they have a common feature that all give the list of kings of the Aryan ruling dynasties. The first three Puranas: Brahma (also known as Adi Purana or the First Purana), Vayu and Matsya were written by Vyasa’s disciples based on this original Purana Samhita during the reign of king Adhiseemakrishna.

Re-appearance of the river that Talageri suggests for "Yavyavati" of Rg Veda:

Vayu Purana was narrated to a group of rishis performing a twelve year sacrifice in Naimishya forest on the bank of the sacred river Drishadvati by Suta Lomaharshna or his son Ugrashravas and must have been narrated elsewhere also.

In de-Kiratizing Valmiki:

Responsibility of these aberrations lies mainly with Skandapurana, Adhyatma-Ramayana and one of the redactors of Mahabharata with the intention of somehow explaining the Rishi’s name “Valmiki” by relating it to Valmika meaning an anthill. In reality Valmiki belonged to the lineage of Bhrigu and Chyavana. According to Vishnu Purana his personal name was Riksha.

The dynasty lists cannot be relied upon without careful vetting. In order to arrive at the dates of personalities in the Dattatreya legends the author himself once tabulated the Solar and Lunar dynasty lists from Bhagwata Purana starting from Vaivaswat Manu. It was a shock to find that this list showed a ridiculous scenario in which Yudhishtira lived earlier to Krishna by nearly two centuries and Rama one and half centuries later than Krishna. Even though this was glaringly apparent it is surprising that no historian seems to have investigated this incongruity.

Maharshi Vyasa is related to Vasishtha, the royal priest of Dasharatha through the following lineage: Vasishtha > Shakti > Parashara > Vyasa.

The name Atri in early days, according to Talageri (See Bibliography) was used to mean the Sun. It is used for Rishi Atri only later. Many references to Atri in the older Mandalas (VI, VII, II) of Rigveda, also refer to the Sun and not to the Rishi; e.g. verse VII.68.05 praises Ashwins the gods of twilight as follows: “Wonderful, verily, is the wealth that is yours; you have liberated from the cave Atri, who is dear to you, and enjoys your protection.”, which implies the sun being rescued from darkness of the night at dawn. Elsewhere (II.8.5) the word Atri is also used as an epithet for Agni (who is literally the earthly representative of the Sun). There are attempts in some hymns in the Mandala V (e.g. hymn 40) where Atri the Sun is deliberately transformed into Atri the Rishi (V.40). In later Mandalas (I, X) the Rishi Atri is fully identified with the mythical Atri.

The only Atri who had a wife named Anasuya is mentioned in Ramayana. This Atri is a historical person and was Rama’s contemporary.

This story is part of the original Valmiki Ramayana (YR: Ch I) and hence this Atri and Anasuya are historical persons and not mythical as the Kardama’s daughter married to Atri of the saptarshis.

When we examine the birth legend in this context it is obvious that the story of the goddesses getting jealous or the Trinity visiting Anasuya to test her claim of being a pativrata can only be a myth.

Ramayana does not mention any children born to this Atri.

Also:

There are no hymns attributed to Soma the person in Rigveda.

That Soma was a real person and not the name of the planet Chandra personified is proved by the two Rigvedic hymns by his son Budha. In one hymn (RV X.101) Budha refers to himself as Budha Saumya or Budha son of Soma. In this hymn Budha calls upon people to prepare for ploughing using horses, tending to cattle etc. and prayers to Indra the son of Aditi who would then give then food. Another hymn (RV: V.1) by Budha is co-authored with Gavishtira Atreya. However there are no hymns ascribed to Atri’s son Soma though an entire Mandala [IX] is devoted to Soma the plant or its juice.

Parashurama mentions in Tripura Rahasya of his meeting Dasharathi Rama who defeated him sending him into depression, one of the reasons why he was seeking Dattatreya. This shows that the story of Parashurama’s meeting Dattatreya is a story composed after Suta added to Ramayana, for it has been shown by Yardi that this story is false.

The trouble is, he used Bhagavata Purana--the most popular, and perhaps most misleading one.

The oldest/most basic is perhaps Brahma Purana.

The most useful I have found to be Vayu Purana and its later edition, the Brahmanda. Secondly, Devi Bhagavata Purana.

All of their lists and chronologies must be viewed with extreme caution. It has little effect when thinking of Dattatreya as a principle. Therefor we lack an equivalent of a cast-in-stone Egyptian Dynasty, which provides a fairly accurate framework. We are left with he is "said to be" a fusion, according to certain sources, and just is not scriptural even remotely.

A female fusion is:

Atharvana Bhadrakali (Pratyangira)

She is the text goddess of Atharva Veda (https://www.exoticindiaart.com/product/sculptures/15-atharvana-bhadrakali-presiding-deity-of-atharvaveda-goddess-pratyangira-zen980/), Lion Face Lakshmi.

She is not a primordial emanation, but a discovery. For Pratyangira Devi (https://chinnikurumaddali.wordpress.com/2022/05/08/pratyangira-devi/):

Two rishis in the ancient times, Pratyangira and Angiras, in their deep meditation, discovered this goddess through her mula mantra in the ethereal waves of the sound current. And though this Mother is nameless, she honored these Rishis by giving the blessings to be named after them. She has hence been known as Sri Maha Pratyangira Devi.

In Shaktism, Pratyangira is Siddhilakshmi, a form of Guhya Kali.
In Vaishnavism, Pratyangira is Narasimhi, the power of Narasimha avatar.

The goddess is associated with Lord Bhairava and hence is called Bhairava Patni.

Adi Parashakthi at an earlier time during the war between Her and Bhandasura gave two boons to Pratyangira that the protection offered by Pratyangira is invincible and no god can overcome it.

https://www.astroved.com/us/wp-content/uploads/2021/03/PRATYANGIRA-DEVI-lft-2-img.jpg

Lion as her riding animal; having three eyes and a trident: praised by Paraśurāma;5

5) Brahmāṇḍa-purāṇa III. 39. 33, 44 to 53.

Bhadrakālī (भद्रकाली) was mentally created by Śrīdevī in order to destroy Dakṣa’s sacrifice, as mentioned in chapter 3 of the 10th century Saurapurāṇa: one of the various Upapurāṇas depicting Śaivism.—Accordingly, [...] Śrīdevī informed Lord Śaṅkara about the sacrifice of Dakṣa in which the later is not invited. She could not tolerate the insult of Siva and requested the latter to destroy the sacrifice. Immediately Śiva created Vīrabhadra of fierce appearance. The dreadful Bhadrakālī was born from the wrath of Śrīdevī. Lord Śiva then ordered Vīrabhadra with Bhadrakālī to destroy the sacrifice of Dakṣa. Vīrabhadra reached there and destroyed the sacrifice in no time. Seeing this Dakṣa was panic-striken and immediately sought refuge in Vīrabhadra. Then Vīrabhadra advised Dakṣa to go to Vārāṇasī and worship Śaṅkara by whose grace all his vices would be destroyed.

A possibly sectarian point I make is that Mahalakshmi (https://www.quora.com/Why-are-Mahakali-and-Bhadakali-the-names-of-the-goddess-Lakshmi-in-Lakshmi-Sharshanam) is Annapurna, Mahakali and Bhadrakali:

In Lakshmi Ashtakam, why is the goddess Lakshmi called Maheshwari and Parameshi, which are the names of the goddess Parvati?

Mother Lakshmi has been called Maheshwari and Parameshi because she is the complete Adi Shakti. Mahalakshmi is the Supreme Goddess that's why she is known as Maheshwari and Parameshi. Parvati and Saraswati are also part of Shri Lakshmi.

( Mahalakshmi Ashtakam )

Adyanta Rahite Devi Adi Shakti Maheshwari Yogaje Yoga Sambhute Maha Lakshmi Namoostute

The Devi who is infinite and represents the primordial energy, Maheshwari, One who is born out of yoga and is in the minds of all yogis, I bow to you Goddess Mahalakshmi.

Mahalakshmi is the source of all powers, that's why she is Narayani. She is Vaishnavi, the Supreme Power of Lord Vishnu and Yogmaya or Mahamaya, the Supreme Maya of Lord Vishnu.

( Shri Suktam of Rig Veda Khila Bhaga )

Siddha Lakshmi Moksha Lakshmi Jaya Lakshmi Saraswati Sri Lakshmi, Vara Lakshmischa prasanna mama sarvada

As the Lakshmi who bestows all the siddhis (super natural powers), as the giver of Salvation, as the one who gives Victory and even as Goddess Saraswati (Goddess of Knowledge and speech) As the Lakshmi who brings auspiciousness and as fulfiller of wishes, be pleased on me forever.

Vedas have declared Maa Lakshmi as the Supreme Goddess. Shri Mahalakshmi is Moolaprakriti and Pradhana Prakriti. She is Madhavi the wife of Lord Vishnu and she is Kshir-Sindhu-Vilasini.

Lalitopakhyāna, Brahmānḍa Purāṇa:

The Śaktis beginning with Tripurā are her own incarnations. She herself was Mahālakṣmī.

Māhāvīdyā Bhuvaneshwarī is Māhālakṣmī Devī.

To that Maṇi Dvīpa the auspicious Devī Māhālakṣmī departed after She had been praised by the Gods, to that place where sports always the eternal Bhagavatī Bhuvaneśvarī, the incarnate of Para Brahmā.

~Devī Bhāgvatam, Canto 5, Chapter 20 (Departure of Mahishāmardinī Māhālakṣmī to her abode Maṇidvīpa)

In other words, if you read the whole Purana (not just the battle scene), Mahalakshmi is "behind all these shaktis".

Look almost anywhere and "Mahishmardini is Durga"--except in the actual sources, she is Viraja and Mahalakshmi. Something got flipped mostly backwards because there is a vast difference between Atharvaveda and Bhagavat Purana.

"Parvati" for instance is not a Vedic goddess, like "Durga" or "Shiva" are not present. Lakshmi is:

bhadraiṣāṁ lakṣmīrnihitādhi vāci

—Rig Veda, x.71.2

In Atharva Veda, transcribed about 1000 BCE, Lakshmi evolves into a complex concept with plural manifestations. Book 7, Chapter 115 of Atharva Veda describes the plurality, asserting that a hundred Lakshmis are born with the body of a mortal at birth, some good, Punya ('virtuous') and auspicious, while others bad, paapi ('evil') and unfortunate. The good are welcomed, while the bad urged to leave. The concept and spirit of Lakshmi and her association with fortune and the good is significant enough that Atharva Veda mentions it in multiple books: for example, in Book 12, Chapter 5 as Punya Lakshmi. In some chapters of Atharva Veda, Lakshmi connotes the good, an auspicious sign, good luck, good fortune, prosperity, success, and happiness.

Narada Purana describes the powerful forms of Lakshmi as Durga, Mahakali, Bhadrakali, Chandi, Maheshwari, Mahalakshmi, Vaishnavi and Andreye.

Bhudevi is the representation and totality of the material world or energy, called the Apara Prakriti, or Mother Earth; Sridevi is the spiritual world or energy called the Prakriti.

(cf. Skambha Sukta)

Sri Suktam (https://greenmesg.org/stotras/lakshmi/sri_suktam.php):

O Mother, You (indicated by Dhanam) are the Power behind Agni (the God of Fire), You are the Power behind Vayu (the God of Wind), You are the Power behind Surya (the God of Sun), You are the Power behind the Vasus (celestial beings).

20.2: You are the Power behind Indra, Vrhaspati and Varuna (the God of Water); You are the All-Pervading Essence behind Everything.

This is from Padma Purana (https://www.wisdomlib.org/hinduism/book/the-padma-purana/d/doc364124.html), where Varuni goes to the "demons". It is also the source for Mahalakshmi Astakam (https://greenmesg.org/stotras/lakshmi/mahalakshmi_ashtakam.php) of Kolhapur.

So you get heaps of Puranic confusion over an Atharva Veda goddess, usually saying Uma, Durga, or Parvati emanates Kali, Lakshmi, etc., the more popular version.

In Nepal, Annapurna is Mahalakshmi, and Adbhuta Ramayana has her emanate Mahakali.

Lakshmi Tantra obviously places her in the commanding role.

Moreover, she is a totally different Pitha set--Sati Pithas represent her body parts falling on the ground, Lakshmi Pithas are where she took birth/emanated/resided, and so that gives us another chronological sequence.

Narasimhi's Gayatri (https://hindumantras.in/2023/06/maha-prathyangira-devi-gayatri-mantra-meaning.html):

|| Om Aparijithayai Vidmahe
Chatru Nishoodinyai Dhimahi
Tanno Prathyangira Prachodayat ||

But her most basic mantra is Ham Ksham.

"Ksha" is of course the "x" syllable, but, it is also the Earth syllable, from the Rg Veda to Bodhisattva Ksitigarbha.

That is in line with the "Post", the "Lump", the Boar and Lion incarnations, lifting or separating the Earth from Water.

Once this is done, I suppose you could say the Earth and Sky rub and produce a child, as in turn the two sticks produce terrestrial fire, as in turn that is how mantra is performed.

It is possible she has a mul mantra, Ksham, which may be apparent in Rg Veda, employed by the Sages--we just quoted it above. This is how you "start" something, compared to Ushas who is of inscrutable age prior to the hymns. Angiras can do this and store it in the Angiras Atharva Veda. Although she may have Puranic and traditional variations, she is scriptural.

Buddhism is also a continuation of these:

Atharvangiras

Atharvana Bhadrakali

This text may have been finished last, however, it begins with language as old or even older than Rg Veda Old Books. This gives it the appearance of a running process over a millennium whereas the other books are momentary bouts.

There is the dangerous offspring of Agni called Aurva (https://www.wisdomlib.org/definition/aurva), who is the sub-oceanic Mare's Mouth Fire, or the gastric fire. He is a combination of multiple flames.

Agni's levels are explained with a very rare statue of him having Two Heads (http://www.heritageuniversityofkerala.com/JournalPDF/Volume7/63.pdf):

Though he consumes everything, but
this destruction is requisite prelude to renewed creation. Agni being the originator of
sacrificial rites; he is considered to be the oldest of all priests. A myth about his birth
hints towards that tradition which made him the presiding deity of Earth. It is that he
is thrice‐born (Ions 1967): that is, he was born and constantly reborn in heaven as the
flame of Sun. Second time he was born in the tempest clouds and descends to earth in
the form of lightning and in the third time on earth, when he was lit up not only by the
priests but also by the hands of every man whom he warms and protects in the form of
health fire.

The end should probably read "hearth fire".

Sun, Lightning, and Terrestrial or Household Fire.

Those are external, but of course symbolic for the subjective and internal.

Most Indian iconography uses multiple faces--not usual to see heads on different necks.

Aurva is in RV VIII.102.4 (https://www.wisdomlib.org/hinduism/book/rig-veda-english-translation/d/doc837251.html).

Sound like Valmiki?

...in later mythology he is called Aurva Bhārgava as son of Cyavana and grandson of Bhṛgu...

Mahabharata version:

Cyavana Maharṣi married Āruṣī, daughter of Manu. Aurva was her child who was the grandfather of Jamadagni and the great grandfather of Paraśurāma.

The Preceptors of the Bhṛgu dynasty were the hereditary gurus of the Kings of Hehaya.

Kṛtavīrya died and his sons did not very much like the Bhārgavas (Bhṛgus) becoming rich by the wealth of their ancestors. Knowing this the Bhṛgus started burying their wealth under the earth.

Aurva bore a deep grudge against the Kṣatriyas who had massacred his forefathers. Aurva started doing rigorous penance and by the force of his austerities the world started to burn. At that stage the Pitṛs appeared before him and persuaded him to withdraw from his penance. Aurva then told them thus: "Pitṛs, while I was lying in the thigh-womb of my mother I heard hideous groans from outside and they were of our mothers when they saw the heads of our fathers being cut off by the swords of the Kṣatriyas. Even from the womb itself I nurtured a fierce hatred towards the Kṣatriyas. No helping hand was raised before the pitiable wails of our mothers".

The Pitṛs were astounded at the firmness of the vow of Aurva and horrified at the thought of what would happen if the penance was continued. They pleaded again to cease his austerities and then submitting to their request Aurva withdrew the fire of his penance and forced it down into the sea. It is now believed that this fire taking the shape of a horse-head is still living underneath the sea vomiting heat at all times. This fire is called Baḍavāgni.

Brahmanda Purana:

Ayodhyā was once ruled by a celebrated King of Ikṣvāku dynasty named Subāhu. He had as his wife Yādavī a good natured and well behaved woman who was a gem among queens. One day Tālajaṃgha a King of the Hehaya line of rulers who was then the King of Māhiṣmatī defeated Subāhu in a battle. Yādavī was then pregnant. Jealous co-wives poisoned her; Yādavī did not die but the poison affected the child in the womb.

After the defeat, Subāhu and Yādavī went and stayed with Aurva in his āśrama. For seven years they lived there and then Subāhu died. Grief-stricken Yādavī was about to jump into the funeral pyre and end her life when Aurva stopped her from the act pointing out that she was soon to deliver a child. After a few months she delivered a son and Aurva called him 'Sagara' meaning one with 'gara' (poison) in him.

also:

When Garuḍa made Aurva acquainted with the pitiable tale of his sister Aurva decreed that Sumati should marry a Kṣatriya instead of a brahmin and thus tide over the curse. He then asked Sagara to marry Sumati and blessed them saying that Sagara would one day become an emperor and perform an Aśvamedha yāga. Aurva then sent Sagara along with the people to Ayodhyā where Sagara after defeating all his enemies became the emperor of Bhāratavarṣa.

and:

All the Bhārgava ṛṣis together once stayed in the āśrama of Aurva. Paraśurāma visited the āśrama one day during that time and paid respects to Bhṛgu, Khyāti, wife of Bhṛgu, Cyavana, son of Bhṛgu and Aurva, son of Cyavana.

If Parasurama is in Rg Veda, could he have done anything as told in Ramayana and Puranas?

Could he be on a Mehgarh seal with Dattatreya?

As shown in 2017 (http://bharatkalyan97.blogspot.com/2019/06/decipherment-of-mehrgarh-pasupati-seal.html):

https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-N-AfmmvUFcQ/XQhMfyMIoMI/AAAAAAABgsM/59RbLxdCrMURiw-nCeP8FuFVSHBmMwUaQCLcBGAs/s200/pasupatixx.JPG

https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-N-AfmmvUFcQ/XQhMfyMIoMI/AAAAAAABgsM/59RbLxdCrMURiw-nCeP8FuFVSHBmMwUaQCLcBGAs/s640/pasupatixx.JPG

Large Procession:

https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-V5wxXhH0JnU/T4txNyDbG-I/AAAAAAAARo0/h2Wb6pk0j0g/s640/m1186A.jpg

http://p9.storage.canalblog.com/98/78/119589/115779254.jpg

https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-dwslBnSQrbI/UbLYi-CUBrI/AAAAAAAAaOc/cz431IH72tE/s320/uprootingtrees.jpg

Seems to be a story before the Cross-legged Man comes out of the Tree as in Farmer's examples.

The Six-spoked Mehrgarh Wheel is found unlikely to represent a real object, but does match the symbolism of RV I.164.12 (http://new-indology.blogspot.com/2016/12/the-wheel-from-mehrgarh-to-vedas-and.html) according to New Indology:

The word ṣaḷ-ara means 'having six spokes' and it is the Rigvedic equivalent of ṣaḍ-ara, found in a repetition of st.12 placed in AV (Śaunaka recension) 9.9.12

The same stanza 12 is cited in the Atharvavedic Praśna Upaniṣad, commented by Śaṃkara, who recognized the symbolism of the year and seasons. About ṣaḍara, he glossed with the compound ṣaḍ-ṛtu-mat- 'having six seasons'.

AV IX.9 (https://sacred-texts.com/hin/av/av09009.htm) uses it in the sense of a physical chariot, whereas in RV there are just wheels, there is no "ratha" although the translator thinks it is implied.

Jim_Duyer

23rd December 2023, 22:37

Here's an off the wall idea that might just have some merit, and surprises as well:
Are you sure that the underlying language for the Indus script is not related to the Amorite and Elamite mixed cousins of the Hebrews, the Ism'alites that once occupied areas of modern Saudi Arabia, and then became known as the Hyksos, when they ruled Egypt about 1750s BC? They were called in the Bible the Kenites, as in, the sons of Cain, and they married into the Hebrews via Moses, and in fact introduced Yahweh to Moses, according to the texts. They are known to have traded with India later on - about the 1800s BC, but they would have been in the area about 3200 BC. That would make Sumerian (proto) more likely, and is easily explained by the fact that they were translators and scribes (as was Abraham) for the Sumerians. Their Elamite heritage is also noted among the Indus or Harrapan peoples.

The term Dasht-e Yahudi literally translates to "Jewish Desert" in Urdu and "Jewish Wasteland" in Pashto. It is an archaic term that first appears in Persian and Mughal texts.
The term "Yahudi" was a reference to the alleged Jewish origin of the Pashtun people.
The Pashtun tribes are a large ethnic group who speak the Pashto language and follow Pashtunwali, the social code of conduct for Pashtuns. They are found primarily in Afghanistan and Pakistan and form the world's largest tribal society, comprising over 60 million people and between 350 and 400 tribes and clans. They are traditionally divided into four tribal confederacies: the Sarbani , the Bettani , the Ghurghusht the Karlani and a few allied tribes of those that are Ismailkhel, Khel, Ludin, Sakzai, and Zai.
In Persian and Mughal historical texts and rarely in Afghan texts, the term Yahudi is always found with another closely related term: Qil Yahudiya or Qila Yahudi. The word "Qil Yahudiya" literally translates to the "Jewish citadel/fort".

shaberon

25th December 2023, 07:08

Not sure yet.

Reading it this way as a hypothesis:

...the underlying language for the Indus script is...related to the Amorite and Elamite mixed cousins of the Hebrews, the Ism'alites that once occupied areas of modern Saudi Arabia, and then became known as the Hyksos, when they ruled Egypt about 1750s BC? They were called in the Bible the Kenites, as in, the sons of Cain, and they married into the Hebrews via Moses, and in fact introduced Yahweh to Moses, according to the texts.

Firstly yes I would think the "Hyksos" like the "Sea People" came to Egypt from somewhere and left it for somewhere.

I am only semi-fluent with this region's string of events, so, from the view of Egypt (https://www.quora.com/Who-were-the-Hyksos-Who-were-the-Amalekites):

Some Hyksos names were Semitic, others were Hurrian (the Hurrians were a horse-taming people from Eastern Armenia and Mitanni), and this also suggests an Israelite identity for them, because the ancient Israelites used to take Hurrian wives. The Hyksos kings of Egypt were Sakir-Har, Khyan (1620 BC), Apophis (1595-1555 BC) and the last was Khamudi (1555-1545 BC), who was expelled by a coalition that included the Egyptian Ahmose.

A technologically sophisticated people the Hyksos were known for their crop and animal breeding, bronze work/pottery and musical instruments. They introduced the horse and chariot to Egypt and made use of composite bows and battle axes when fighting. The fortification techniques that they employed were also advanced.

On a cultural level the Hyksos practiced horse burial and worshipped a storm god not to different to that of the Egyptian deity, Seth.

it appears that the establishment of Hyksos rule was mostly peaceful and did not involve an invasion of an entirely foreign population. Archaeology shows a continuous Asiatic presence at Avaris for over 150 years before the beginning of Hyksos rule, with gradual Canaanite settlement beginning there c. 1800 BC during the Twelfth Dynasty. Archaeological chemistry of the inhabitants of Middle Kingdom and Second Intermediate Period Avaris support a gradual Canaanite settlement. Further, this study found more women being born outside the northeast Nile Delta and migrating to Avaris, suggesting economic and political ties rather than militaristic invasion.

They likely absorbed Set from the nome priests, and used Ra in their personal names.

They seem to be indistinguishable from "Canaanites" and appear to have been banished back there ca. 1545 B. C. E.

This Egyptian name just means "foreigners", like Sanskrit "mleccha", and they are low on personal identifiers other than the military tech.

They brought horses, and, here again I would argue the Arabian was developed at about the same time as the Yamnaya, ca. 2,200-2,000 B. C. E., and the Arabian was probably the first sent to India.

There seems to be another idea with the Shasu (https://historum.com/t/the-shasu.195506/):

There is an 'old' idea called the Kenite Hypothesis. It is so old , a lot of young historians might think they are reinventing the wheel....but, a lot of old timers thought Moses 'borrowed' YHWH iao Ya Io from the local Midianite tribes who already worshiped him. When Moses is talking to God , God tells him "I was known to Isaac , Abe and Jake as El Elyon and El Shaddai, but my real name is (tetragrammaton). Moses had just been living with his Father in Law the 'priest of Yhwh (Shasu?).... Nomadic Herders in the Eastern Sinai and Northern Arabian peninsula

Those Shasu chronologically and Geographically line up better with the Midianites then the Hebrews (apiru, Habiru) who are already pretty entrenched in the Hill country by the time of the Amarna Letters (Amenhotep III and Akhnaten)

I am not good with chapter and verse BUT YHWH in the psalms and a few other poetry pieces is linked with Mt Seir and Edom. Later Idumeans (like Herod the Great) were sort of proto-Jews since they worshiped the same God...all of that is in the direction of the midianites. And unlike other natrions God tells them to destroy, Edom and Kenites are always given a pass...worshiping the same God has it's advantages!

or:

Shasu-Sutu or Seti sons of Seth. Shasas or Rak-shasas were Hindu Assuras descent from Varuna from India , migrate from India to Cannan around 2500-2300BC. Shasu were Kentites/Gypsies indeed.

...one in Moab /Edom ,second in Salem they were Yahweh worshipers Roma Gypsies descent from them ,also Jethro father of law of Moses, the third clan of Kenites were in Arabic penisula known as Nabatheans. Shasu-Sutu from Moab they became Hyksos latter Hitties -Hurrian empire

which does not sound quite right since that Indian root would be "raksa", and the suffix as split would depend on the accent:

1) Śaśa (शश, ‘hare’) is found once in the Rigveda, where it is said to have swallowed a razor. The animal is occasionally mentioned later also.

2) Śāsa (शास) denotes in the Brāhmaṇas a ‘sword’ or ‘knife’.

3) Sasa (सस) in the Rigveda denotes ‘herb’ or ‘grass’. The word is also applied to the Soma plant and the sacrificial straw.

I am not yet persuaded the Shasu are Rakshasas, but in the view there was no Exodus because the Jews were "already there", this hypothesis lines up according to its own origin and revival (https://isthatinthebible.wordpress.com/2016/02/05/the-origins-of-yahweh-and-the-revived-kenite-hypothesis/):

Yahweh was originally the God of the Kenite tribe prior to the Israelite settlement of Canaan.

This view of Yahweh’s introduction to Israel became known as the Kenite or Midianite hypothesis.

Archaeological evidence for the name Yahweh is comparatively sparse. The earliest epigraphic evidence (inscription) from Palestine that refers to Yahweh is the Mesha Stele from about 840 BCE. In it, king Mesha of Moab boasts of a campaign in which he devoted the “vessels of Yahweh” to Chemosh after conquering the city of Nebo from Israel.

Two Egyptian texts, however, mention “Yhw in the land of the Shasu (nomads)” in lists of toponyms around Edom. These date to the reigns of Amenophis III (14th century) and Ramses II (13th century). It is generally thought that Yahweh must have originally been associated with a mountain of the same name in or near Edom.

The ruins of Kuntillet ‘Ajrud in the Sinai peninsula, which may have been a shrine in the late 9th and early 8th centuries BCE, have inscriptions that make reference to “Yahweh of Teman” and “Yahweh of Samaria” along with El, Baal, and Asherah. This is further evidence that Yahweh was worshipped in Edom (Teman) and in Israel (Samaria) from an early date.

The early extra-biblical evidence is thus consistent with the possibility that Yahweh was first venerated by nomadic Bronze Age tribes in Edom, and later adopted in Samaria to the north.

And then the author of Genesis changed everything: he turned Cain from a warrior to a murderer and reused the names from Cain’s genealogy to create a new genealogy for Seth’s superior lineage. Some scholars even think that in an earlier version of the story, it was Cain who was “the first to invoke the name Yahweh”, an honour now afforded to the obscure Enosh (Wyatt 86).

But that’s another story for another article. The point is, the Kenites’ own origin story saw themselves as devotees to Yahweh from the first, even if that fact is obscured by the present text of Genesis.

From these and other references to Edomite and proto-Arabian tribes in Judah, many scholars have concluded that Judah was settled early on by a loose federation of semi-nomadic clans — Kenites, Kenizzites, Calebites, Othnielites, Simeonites, Reubenites, and so on — and that their settlement traditions were later attributed to Judah (Weinfeld 395). In fact, according to renowned Orientalist Edward Lipinski, there was never a tribe called Judah; the name comes from ’eres yehūdã, meaning “land of ravines” (Lipinski 367). In early biblical stories about the tribes (e.g. the Song of Deborah), Judah is conspicuously absent. Later in the biblical texts, Judah rises in prominence, while the tribes of Simeon and Reuben disappear — even though the fiction of “twelve tribes” is maintained

The archaeological evidence is consistent with this view of Judah’s late emergence. There is no evidence for a Judahite state based in Jerusalem until the 8th century; Judah’s first appearance in the historical record is a mention in an Assyrian clay tablet dated to 733 BCE.

Qos, Yahweh, and the Canaanite Baal are now thought to have been local manifestations of the ancient Syrian storm-god Hadad (Kelly 260).

It must be concluded that either Yahweh and Qos co-existed in Edomite religion, or they were two names for same god (Kelley 266; Blenkinsopp 150-151). It is notable that the Bible distinguishes Yahweh from the gods of other neighbours — the Philistine Dagon, the Ammonite Milcom, the Moabite Chemosh, and so on — but never mentions Qos in all Israel’s dealings with Edom. Edom’s religion is never denounced or rejected.

Asia was primarily responsible for the Rise of Egypt in this view of the Hyksos (https://www.imninalu.net/Hyksos.htm):

During this period it is evident that Asiatic traders had already threaded their way past the indigenous Egyptians of Upper Egypt by boat and donkey to trade with the Nubians. The donkey was alien to Egypt. The Egyptians, in fact, had no pack animals during the entire pre-dynastic period. The earliest remains of donkeys were found in various communities of Asiatic origins in the Delta. Donkeys were conspicuously present in Ma'adi, a village of Asiatic people which was established south of present-day Cairo. Significant evidence of trade both with Asia and Nubia was found among the artefacts recovered from its ruins.

The Ma'adians were not only expert in husbandry but were accomplished metallurgists and craftsmen. A copper axe-head spoiled in casting and masses of copper ore indicate that copper was being processed at Ma'adi. Ma'adi is the oldest site in Northern Egypt in which copper artefacts have been found.

The people of Ma'adi were among the many communities of Asiatic peoples who had been active in Northern Egypt for centuries at the time it was invaded and destroyed by the kings of the First Dynasty.

These terms are commonly transformed into "Hyksos", a word which is not confined to the chieftains but is mistakenly applied to the Semitic people (termed the Aamu by the Egyptians) from which they stemmed. Although the hegemony of these "Asiatic" included all Egypt, Canaan and extended into a major portion of Mesopotamia, they established no dynasties. They were elected by the village chieftains (the Hyk-Khase) of the Aamu villages, and therefore can be properly designated as the chief-of-chiefs.

The Hyk-Khase worshipped a single God and made no statues of Him. Many archaeologists, disappointed by the lack of gigantic monuments, self-glorifying statuary and self-serving temples such as those which so often drained Egypt, dismally stated that during this period art declined. Museums petulantly concur, for lack of imposing mausoleums, mummies and exotic statuary of beastly idols to display. The lack of such artefacts cause museums to pass by the vibrant, prosperous and progressive two centuries of Egyptian history with scarcely a mention.

During the rule of the Semitic chieftains Egypt leaped forward into a new era, advancing enormously in every field of knowledge and endeavour. Wise men came and taught astronomy, and medicine, and mathematics. The great mathematical Rhind papyrus, now in the British Museum, was produced during this period. Thus, although the chieftains sculpted no great statues of themselves, nor fashioned idols of fabulous gods, the arts they infused into Egyptian culture were of a rather subtle nature, more durable than the stone of which the statues were carved, and benefited all Egyptians.

The Egyptians had been sailing the Nile in feluccas, simple boats which were handled adeptly on the river. These boats, however, could not be managed easily on the high seas, for they had no keel. The Aamu (Hyksos) had long incorporated a keel, which stabilized their ships and made them easier to manoeuvre, safer and seaworthy. They probably learnt from Canaanites, better known in history as Phoenicians. Consequently, trade with the islands of the Mediterranean blossomed, and Egypt became a more essential factor in the region's economy. A most important impact upon Egyptian economy and life was the engineering by the Semites of an effective control of water resources.

Wheels and wheeled vehicles, and the horses and oxen to draw them, were unknown in Egypt until the time of the rule of the Semitic chieftains. Wheeled chariots, hitched to teams of Asiatic horses, were introduced for hunting and for war, and the potters of Egypt began to throw their ware upon swiftly whirling wheels with newly won ease.

The Semites cultivated new fruits in Egypt – pomegranates, figs, olives, new grains and vegetables. Even the cornflower, a common Canaanite flower, became the favourite of Egyptian noblemen, and their tomb painters employed them lavishly.
Tools were refined and perfected. The Semites taught the people of Egypt how to set the helve, or handle, into a socket instead of tying the head crudely onto it. The simple bows the Egyptians used were no more than bent branch. They were replaced by the superior bows of the Aamus, cunningly constructed of bone and wood laminated into a composite curve. The shape and composition of swords and daggers were modified to make them more effective and durable.

More important than weapons was the introduction of abiding inventions of peaceful use: new spinning devices and the upright loom; new fibres and new fast dyes made fabrics more durable and colourful; and added another dimension to the quality of life. The introduction of gently arts likewise contributed to a richer Egyptian culture. A variety of new musical instruments, the harp, the lute, the lyre, the oboe and the tambourine, long played in the Mesopotamian milieu, now appear in Egypt. With the new music came new forms of dance, and its graceful images became forever inscribed into the graffiti of the nobles, princes and pharaohs of Egypt since that time.

Semitic peoples, called the Aamu or "Asiatic" by the Egyptians, established a colony on Yeb and on the Eastern Nile bank at Syene (now Aswan) to trade with the Nubians in the same period. Artefacts excavated on the island by members of the German and Swiss Archaeological Institutes include uniquely Canaanite earthenware, which, together with other characteristic materials, clearly establish the ethnicity of the settlers. The pottery from Yeb proved to be a virtual replica of those recovered from the ancient Canaanite city of Ugarit and elsewhere in Canaan.

Where did Yitzhak and Yakov get their wives from? Haran (the land of Hurrians).

All this, similar to the events of Rg Veda, does not shake the idea that Yhwh was a local Edomite deity, not "invented" by Elijah, but, rather, elevated by him to a royal status by overthrowing the House of Omri.

For this, yes, I think most likely a route from Gaza to Kerala was functioning:

They are known to have traded with India later on - about the 1800s BC, but they would have been in the area about 3200 BC. That would make Sumerian (proto) more likely, and is easily explained by the fact that they were translators and scribes (as was Abraham) for the Sumerians. Their Elamite heritage is also noted among the Indus or Harrapan peoples.

"They" meaning Ismailites or Nabatheans?

I think you could practically link Nabatheans to Kerala by King Solomon's time, ca. 1,000 B. C. E., and probably Sri Lanka by then.

You could probably add Cochin Jews not much later at a point where it probably was not the full blown Judaism as we know it.

I am not sure how that would make Sumerian or Semitic the underlying language of IVC Seals.

So far the visuals seem to be developed in Mehrgarh--Nausharo ca. 3,000-2,500 B. C. E.; is there a Sumerian word for "tiger", "unicorn", etc., that would fit?

They seem to be uniform and stable ca. 2,500-1,800 B. C. E.

Then their form briefly changes and they cease being used.

As far as I know, there is no further evidence of writing from India until some Brahmi characters maybe ca. 500 B. C. E.

Those are some notable artistic finds in Balochistan, however, again on a human scale, that which is called IVC is shown to have originated in Haryana--and even this site is layered over an older village of pit dwellers.

The older IVC is said to have phases of Black and Red Wares, and then it goes to grafitti decorations and seals. I still have no reason to suspect that the use of seals is a native Indian concept.

So far, all I can think is that it was a "design scheme", which was physically bounded on the west by the mountains and deserts of Balochistan, which made the Makran port very important. It reproduced a village on numerous sites that were only a few acres. They may not have been intended as permanent habitations. It may have been planned for some number of generations and then you move on.

It is hard to be certain it represented a single language, culture, or government. It might be something like we would call an "architectural style" like Gothic or Corinthian, except there was basically one of them.

Except for Rakhigarhi being radial.

My inclination would also be OIT for Sanskrit, i. e., probably is of Gangetic in origin kindred to Tamil.

I am pretty sure we see a hybrid in Nirmand in HP. It probably was founded in IVC styles by Aryas. In other words it looks like an alliance between a local king and a king of Haryana.

If the question is raised about a spoked wheel of Mehrgarh compared to the Rg Veda, it comes in one of the New Books in such a way that short circuits logic.

Tis is from a page that collects a few numerical patterns (http://thehinduforum.com/index.php?threads/mathematics-vedas-and-arya-bhatt.1146/), and several of them happen to be from the same hymn. A lot of it is presumably time-related based on the year.

And in the beginning of it we do find "ratha" which could be a "chariot":

1:164:2

SAPTA yunjanti rathamekachakrameko ashva vahati SAPTANAMA |
TRInabhi chakramajarmanarva yatrema vishvaa bhubanadhi tasthuh ||

These SEVEN are fixed with the chariot, that has ONE wheel, A horse with SEVEN names drives the wheel. This wheel has three centers. This time wheel is ever moving and devoid of any halt. In this wheel exists the whole world.

"Chariot", of course, has a military sense and later artwork, but a better choice is simply "car" because it could be any kind of wheeled vehicle yoked to anything. The "horse" is perhaps simply "energy".

Then when we come to the verse that has "six spoked wheel", it does not really have a "ratha" or "chariot":

1:164:12

PANCHA padam pitaram DVADASHA akritam diva aahuh pare ardhe puriisanam |
Atheme anya upare vichakshyanam saptachakre salara aahurarpitam ||

According to some, the Sun resides in half of the sky, and has twelve images and five feet. Others say, it is in a chariot which has six spokes and seven wheels.

Curiously:

1:164:41

Gaurirmimaya salilani takshyatyekapadi dvipadi saa chatuspadi |
Astapadi navapadi babhuvusi sahasrakshyara parame vyoman ||

The cows create a wave on water by their sound. This sound is divided in different chhandas based on ONE, TWO, FOUR, EIGHT or NINE vowels. With combination of THOUSANDS of such vowels, they spread into the sky.

It is tricky, because it is not a scene of a king in his war chariot, in fact no kind of actual car has one wheel with three centers, so it barely makes sense.

Even if IVC originated in Haryana, that does not mean it had to be an Indian language. I tread lightly with it, I am not sure how to take the common glyph and the Wheel, and why does it look like the Akkadian scribe was trying to stylisticly copy an IVC Goat.

Jim_Duyer

25th December 2023, 17:29

1800 BC during the Twelfth Dynasty. Archaeological chemistry of the inhabitants of Middle Kingdom and Second Intermediate Period Avaris support a gradual Canaanite settlement. Further, this study found more women being born outside the northeast Nile Delta and migrating to Avaris, suggesting economic and political ties rather than militaristic invasion.
---End Quote---\

First - Merry Christmas or Happy Holidays - Seasons Greetings to one and all.

No they did not take it by force - that's not their style. They are swarmers. They swarmed around the wall built to contain them and took Sumeria - putting an end to that civilization once and for all, and then assimilating the local populace. That the Amorites (of Abraham's Father). They were not Hurrians. It has been proven that this old idea has no merit. They were the Cainite, Kenite, Sim'alites, same thing, branch of what was later called the Hebrews. It's very clear.

They have always swarmed, and they did the same thing when they introduced Communism in Russia - no direct confrontation, but suddenly all of these people gather together and they are the new ones in charge. Not all of them, of course, were Jews - just the leaders.

In Sumerian: There are words that mean lion, and the translators indicate it could mean tigers as well. Why do they do this? IDK.
No unicorns in Sumerian - they knew better. Even the Serpent or Great Dragons of their epic tales were written in by later conquerors such as the Akkadians, Elamites, Amorite (Hebrews), etc., and did not exist in the earliest tales. Now, extraterrestrials did, and they knew about and write about their crafts of light that traveled to the home planets. No rockets (that's Sitchin's folly), but some were described as boomerang shaped - which is what we saw in California prior to Roswell.

Mark Smith is the smartest scholar that I know in regards to the history of that region and especially the Hebrews. He tells us that Yahwey was first introduced to the Hebrews by the family of Moses, the Kenites. He fully supports the Kenite Hypothesis, but with evidence. One desparate scholar pointed to a text in Ugaritic that mentioned "Ya" but then he was shown other examples that explained that this was another name for the Sea god, Yam, and not Yahweh. Nothing, and I mean nothing, written or manufactured, prior to about 1200 BC, mentions Yahweh, and those are some of the Amarna texts from Egypt. But, oddly they are not shown to us. Why? Because they speak of the Hebrews being thieves in their tradings with Egypt and this is dated to 1380s, which is supposedly too late for the Bible narrative, but in addition they state that the Hebrews were finally convinced to leave, peacefully. So, not slaves, no Exodus. Big Problem. The only time, and they were indeed in Egypt for a long time, as rulers and not as slaves, the only time that they were actually forced to leave was when, as Hyksos, they were driven out by the southern rulers of Egypt.

After the Kenites introduced Yahweh, they joined (some of them) the tribes and went with Moses. They became, later, the scribes of the temple. So when Jesus said "Your Father is not My Father, your Father was a Murderer from the beginning", he is speaking of these Kenites, now Hebrews, whose ancestry is from the "murderer from the beginning" or Cain, the first murderer. Jesus's ancestry is from Seth, not Cain, so indeed, his Father (El) was not their Father (Yahweh). None of His parables are that hard to understand - what we face is a group of scholars and religious leaders who do not want to unravel them, and do not want us to either. They protect the story and the Jews at all costs, thinking that their whole platform will collapse if they do not. The truth is, that we don't need the OT, nor their platform, unless we seek to expand upon what is written by going off on some tangent. These tangents cause new versions of denominations to arise, further splitting Christianity, and performing the task that Satan desires, while at the same time making the new leaders rich in the process. Sad, but true.

Now, some don't know this but the Kenites were ancestors of Abraham. And Moses was brought up/taught in On, aka Heliopolis, in the mystery schools of Ra. And Joseph married the daughter of the head Egyptian priest of Ra at On as well. So they were, in that time period, somewhat off of EL and somewhat prior to Yahweh, and basically worshiped the Egyptian gods, under one name or another.

BTW, when we see the admiration placed on Egypt by the Masons (the higher ups only), it is due to their knowledge that the sons of Cain, Sim'alites, were connected very, very deeply with the worship of Ra and the governance of Egypt. Through the Hyksos, down to Moses, but also in the earliest period when the Edomites (another name for the Kenite group of Sim'alites) wrote those tablets that they claimed were Canaanite and I proved in another post were written in Sumerian, and by Sim'alites who lived on the northern borders of Sumeria in Elamite territory. So they have been in Egypt since 3200 BC, almost at the modern dynamic beginnings. Who do you think inspired the magical tablets and the writings on contacting spirits for advice? Yes, the same Cain group who later were called Hebrews and occupied the kingdom of Judah. We see the same love for spirit contact, magic, numerology etc., all the way up to the Middle Ages. Kabalists or Cabalists they were called.

Some spawn of Satan has laid the rumor that Jesus was also a student at On, the religious capitol of Ra in northern Egypt, but that's a lie that has never been supported with any scraps of evidence. He and his family did escape to that region in the Nile Delta, and perhaps near On, but he was about 3 years old - hardly a student yet.

shaberon

26th December 2023, 10:35

This is some nuts and bolts on the Mitanni.

Thinking of Hyksos <--> IVC goes right to the circular whirlwind with Vedic Sanskrit.

Again, Hyksos is not even a good name either, since it is a later Hellenization of the Egyptian, so we might use the original to push it aside.

It sounds to me that "Hyksos Invasion", like "Aryan Invasion", never happened. Northeastern Egypt housed Canaanites or Semitics since ca. 1,800 B. C. E., and they were routed ca. 1,545 B. C. E.. The Egyptians called them Amu or Aamu, and they are said to be part Hurrian or Mittani, particularly with respect to horses. This is supposed to be visibly distinguishable from Semitic; and so it looks like Egypt is hosting two foreign cultures, who eventually elected leaders.

Sanskrit is found in the Hittite--Mittani treaty of ca. 1,380 B. C. E.; the Witzel-ism is to use this to say the horse, Sanskrit language, etc., then somehow invaded India and installed itself in a way that did not happen here.

The treaty is found at Bogazkoy, the site of the older double-headed Eagle seal which was said to have Indus Script, but I have not seen information about the two basic glyphs used.

In this treaty the Sanskrit users appear to be the submitted ones; however the treaty appears to be a continuation of previous cultural saturation.

It is generally believed that an Indo-Aryan-speaking people settled in upper Mesopotamia and northern Syria, and established the kingdom of Mitanni following a period of political vacuum, while also adopting the Hurrian language.

Witzel's information for the presence of Sanskrit in Mitanni (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-Aryan_superstrate_in_Mitanni):

In a treaty between the Hittites and Mitanni (between Suppiluliuma I and Shattiwaza, c. 1380 BC), the deities Mitra, Varuna, Indra, and Nasatya (Ashvins) are invoked. Kikkuli's horse training text (circa 1400 BC) includes technical terms such as aika (Vedic Sanskrit eka, one), tera (tri, three), panza (pañca, five), satta (sapta, seven), na (nava, nine), vartana (vartana, round).

Another text has babru(-nnu) (babhru, brown), parita(-nnu) (palita, grey), and pinkara(-nnu) (pingala, red) for horse colours.

The Mitanni warriors were called marya (Hurrian: maria-nnu), the term for '(young) warrior' in Sanskrit as well, formed by adding the Hurrian suffix -nnu.

Sanskritic interpretations of Mitanni names render Artashumara (artaššumara) as Arta-smara "who thinks of Arta/Ṛta", Biridashva (biridašṷa, biriiašṷa) as Prītāśva "whose horse is dear", Priyamazda (priiamazda) as Priyamedha "whose wisdom is dear", Citrarata as Citraratha "whose chariot is shining", Indaruda/Endaruta as Indrota "helped by Indra", Shativaza (šattiṷaza) as Sātivāja "winning the race prize", Šubandu as Subandhu "having good relatives" (a name in Palestine), Tushratta (tṷišeratta, tušratta, etc.) as *tṷaišaratha, Vedic Tveṣaratha "whose chariot is vehement".

The context suggests that the "Sanskritization" which perhaps is "Mitanni" was all about some horses, not a Vedic Crusade that replaced the local deities. Also suggesting numerous Tamil sources for the vocabulary, this is a look at the actual Mitanni system from Jayasree (https://jayasreesaranathan.wordpress.com/2018/01/06/vedic-gods-in-mitanni-part-2/):

Teshub before whom the tablet of the Shubbiluliuma- Mattiuaza treaty was placed. The following image is that of Teshub of Mitanni.

https://jayasreesaranathan.files.wordpress.com/2018/01/pic.png

Teshub is holding an axe in one hand and a triple thunderbolt in the other. The bull is sacred to him.

This description is exactly that of God Shiva. Axe and trident (Trishul) are the weapons of Shiva. What researchers call as triple thunderbolt in this image is actually a trident. The bull is the associated with Shiva. The myth of Kumarbi biting and swallowing his genitals also conveys a parallel with Shiva. Shiva is depicted as a phallus and Kumar was his son in the Indic traditions. Why don’t Witzel and his ilk show this as a proof of pre-Aryan presence in Mitanni? The fact is that it is more logical to interpret the concept of this image as having gone from India to Mitanni than the other way round.

Well, of course he is slightly off because there is no Shiva identifiable at this age.

Some think shiva was a title applied to various rebels or warrior kings in the post-Vedic age, i. e. after this Teshub, but if you want to say this is Indian, you have to find it as Rudra or in the IVC Seals.

Returning to his mythological comparison:

The list of Gods found in the Shubbiluliuma- Mattiuaza treaty (Appendix-1) shows a complete collection of all gods that they have heard but not necessarily worshiped. The treaty being concluded by the king of Hatti and the king of Mitanni, one can expect their Gods taking centre stage – something we see in the treaty. Shamash was the God of Hittites and Teshub was the God of Hurrians (Mitanni). Copies of the treaty were placed in front of these deities only in Hatti and Mitanni respectively but not in front of or by invoking the Vedic Gods or any other Gods.

The 130 names of Gods found in this treaty include Gods of regions outside Hatti and Mitanni. Names such as Sin are Ashur came from outside their regions. The list includes the Gods of enemies too, such as Irrites. There is a long list of Teshub Gods of Mitanni but none of them are associated with the Vedic Gods. There is also no way to establish which of the Gods found in the treaty were from Hatti or Mitanni. If association of Teshub indicates Mitannian origin of the Gods, there is no such association with the Vedic Gods that appear in the list.

Anu et al were Sumerian Gods, but among them Anu underwent change in Hittite myths. Anu’s son Kumarbi bit off Anu’s genitals and banished him to underworld along with old Gods. This gives an impression that the Sumerian pantheon was replaced by a new set of Gods by Hittites. But the myth goes on further.

The swallowed genitals gave rise to the birth of Teshub (Mitanni God) by Kumarbi who in turn was banished by Teshub. This explains why Kumarbi is not found in the list. But Teshub turns out to be a later creation after Anu. Teshub remains as a God of a variety of things such as trade, camp, relief and mounds (applicable to transiting merchants) and also some names of unknown entities. But there is no explanation for why the same group of Anu et al appears again in the same treaty.

Where we expect only Teshub of many entities, we are seeing Samash (Hittite) Sin, Anu, Antum, Enlil, Ninlil and the Vedic Gods (Mitra, Varuna, Indra and Nasatya). As the first six are accepted as gods of their respective lands, what prevents Witzel and others from accepting the Vedic Gods as having originated in India? The answer is simple – they need a proof for AIT!

That was the same impression I got. It is not quite a theology, it is more like calling on one or more deities from numerous countries perhaps as witnesses to the signatories, Shamash and Teshub.

What is doubly curious that the Hittites as well as India begin to have Iron and the horse-drawn chariot at about this same time.

It is not because of a great overland route across the Iranian Plateau.

The necessary ports are laden with IVC Seals.

From an article by Cotticelli with a considerable digest of personal names (https://brill.com/display/book/9789004548633/BP000013.xml?language=en):

The acknowledgment of the presence of Indo-Iranian people in the ancient Near East in the second millennium BCE predates the discovery and interpretation of Hittite texts. The letters sent by Tušratta of Mittani to Amenhotep III and Amenhotep IV, found at Tell el Amarna beginning in 1887, contain names of the kings and nobles that had already been recognized as Indo-Iranian when Winckler (1907) pointed out the presence of Vedic god names in the cuneiform tablets found at Boğazköy that preserved the treaty between Šuppiluliuma I and Šattiwaza of Mittani

...a Hittite ritual text (CTH 395) in which the name of the Indic god Agni was found. These discoveries provided further support for the previous identification of the Kassite Sun god name Šuriya with the Vedic sū́riya-. Moreover, an Indo-Iranian etymology seemed to be available for relevant words and place-names in texts concerning Mittani from different areas (Alalah, Egypt, etc.)—for example, mariyanni and Waššukanni—and some terms referring to horse colors with a likely Indo-Aryan etymology were later identified in texts from Nuzi.

An ambiguous group of Indians were part of the Mittani, at apparently the same time at the Mittani were part of the ambiguous Amu of Egypt.

It is not a question about whether Mittani royals were involved with marital alliances to the Pharaohs.

On the setting of the treaty from Arya Akasha (https://aryaakasha.com/2019/09/16/here-be-indo-aryans-on-the-vedic-gods-of-the-mitanni/):

https://aryaakasha.files.wordpress.com/2019/09/70383053_10162268033965574_3121450345172041728_n-1.jpg

This is one of the world’s oldest surviving international peace-treaties. Dating from the mid-14th century B.C., it seeks to solemnize an end to the conflict between two then-prominent Near Eastern regional powers – the waxing Hittite Empire under Suppiluliuma, and the seriously waning Mitanni by this stage under Shattiwaza.

The treaty in question is written in an *Indo-Aryan* language, rather than an Anatolian I.E. one; and makes direct reference to several strongly important Vedic Gods and concepts.

Now, in order to ‘set the scene’, we should probably briefly introduce the respective agonists of the agreement. And by this, I do not mean the rulers whose names are baked into the terms of the tablet; but rather, the polities, the peoples for whom they stood. Because that’s where things start to get interesting.

The Hittites should already be relatively familiar. They turn up just about everywhere dealing with the period – rampaging down to Babylon, fighting Ramses II at Kadesh (in what is probably one of history’s first recorded instances of deliberately promulgated “Fake News”, as applies Ramses’ presentation of the outcome of the battle as a crushing Egyptian victory), likely making war on the Greeks quite to the west, and potentially even turning up in the Bible – which is probably where most of us know the name from. In the mid-1300s, they’re a real regional Great Power, pretty much at the apex of their suzerainty.

Despite the fact that they’re *unquestionably* the *severely* dominant party to this peace-treaty (it’s really more of an imposition than an equal-footing act of diplomacy, in realpolitik terms; the Mitanni’s position after this is effectively that of a client-state of the Hittites, sealed with the marriage of Suppiluliuma’s daughter to the Mitanni’s new ruler Shattiwaza … who’d effectively been placed upon the throne *by* Suppiluliuma following a period of considerable instability amidst the Mitanni characterized by a string of assassinations and overthrows), the Hittites are not supposed to be the stars of *this* show.

Instead, that honour goes to the Mitanni – or, more specifically, to their courtly language and religious customs. Which, as I noted somewhere towards the intro, aren’t exactly what you’d expect in Northern Mesopotamia/South-Eastern Anatolia.

...the Mitanni are coming at a similar starting situation from the opposite angle. Literally. As in, from the *East*, as far as we can tell.

And instead of conquering and assimilating the Hurrians into an Indo-European dominant culture, the Mitanni’s Indo-European ruling elite find themselves increasingly Hurrian-ized, to the point that by the time this treaty is signed, it seems that they themselves are likely speaking Hurrian on a day-to-day basis, with their own original language having become increasingly reserved only for ‘special occasions’ – the incredibly serious and indelibly closely related fields of formalized politics/matters of state and religion.

I do not consider it to be coincidental that it is in the religious realms, the courtly realms, and the horse-training realms that the Indo-Aryan language features, indeed names and nouns, are seemingly most strongly preserved. All are, after their own way, effectively sacred, sacral actions; and the reign-names of their rulers – which often directly included elements around divinity and/or horses and chariots – are effectively at the apex of all three.

There is therefore, in the treaty in question, little surprise that we have *exactly* the right – indeed, the *rite* – Indo-Iranian/(Pre-)Vedic deities invoked, with highly recognizable names to scholars or speakers of Sanskrit (admittedly, in at least one case with the addition of a Hurrian grammatical suffix), rather than the situation prevailing in many other texts from, say, the Hittites, wherein theonyms (or even entire deities) from the cultures they were in contact with are straight-imported and placed alongside or otherwise overlain over the top of the Hittites’ own Indo-European theology.

Why does this matter? Because somewhere smack in the middle between where the Mitanni were, and where the core of Vedic society had set up amidst the Seven Rivers, there are the early Iranians – the Persians, and other such peoples. Who speak a different branch of Indo-Iranian languages, and who at some point come under the thumb of the religious inverter Zoroaster – one of whose ‘reforms’ specifically demonizes Lord Indra.

It’s *possible*, to be sure, that some of this *could* be explained by impressively long-distance trade and cultural contacts with the Vedic Aryans far to the east, which somehow bypass the (Old) Iranians somewhere in the middle; however while this *may* account for the technical terminology around horse-training etc, I suspect that this would be a pretty unsatisfying explanation for the presence of (Proto-)Hindu conceptry in reign-names and the apparent pantheon of the Mitanni’s ruling elite.

The *better* explanation – at least, to my mind; as well as being the more immediately ‘useful’ one – is that this all suggests that the Zoroastrian heresy was considerably *later* and more marginal in its earlier phases than some have otherwise sought to suggest.

There’s this incredible duality between the Deities mentioned in this text – assumedly, the deities the Mifanni held dear – and the Mitanni themselves. Hell, even the Hittites in whose imperial mouth(piece) They (the Gods) are Invoked.

See, of the Mitanni, we know if not “next to nothing”, then hardly too much more than that. We have a few fragments of Imperial correspondence, a horse-training manual (that is surprisingly – and I mean *surprisingly* – almost ultra-modern in its techniques), some scattered inscriptions here and there, and pretty much what can be untangled from the accounts of the people by those who lived in their immediate vicinity and warred against and/or intermarried with them (usually in that direct order). Even when it comes to the actual, physically baked hard-text in front of us, so much of what we present as fact about them is, ultimately, simply well-informed (albeit quite likely via inference) conjecture.

We can, in short, barely even tell you who or what they were as a people. It’s gotten to the point wherein we’re not even entirely sure if they’re *a* people, or just what precise role these Indo-Aryans among their midst *actually* played within the kingdom itself – warrior elite binding together a confederacy? royal family and upper aristocracy at the heart of an empire by then in decline? expatriate professionals within the relevant fields of war and equestrianism (and perhaps *especially* both at once) from further East who may have seen an opportunity for some “vertical integration” and taken it? We just simply don’t know.

...why these *specific* Indo-European deities are strongly resonant with the concept of (inter)National treaty-making and diplomacy, alliances, in the first place … and, for that matter, whether Suppiluliuma *really* meant to suggest that necromancy was one of the Cassus Belli for this *particular* war-effort against his neighbouring rivals...

They vassalized the Amorites. There is a fairly clear track of details on the Mitanni (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitanni) up to the 1,200s:

Hurrians made up the main population of Mitanni, that was firstly known as Ḫabigalbat, at Babylonia, in two texts of the late Old Babylonian period, during the reign of Ammi-Saduqa, (c. 1638–1618 BC), in low middle chronology.

Hurrians are mentioned in the private Nuzi texts, in Ugarit, and the Hittite archives in Hattusa (Boğazköy).

Those are the populace, whereas its state name is most likely Sanskrit, from mitha/maitha, and so it is "united kingdom". Do these resemble anything?

Shaushtatar, defeated Assyria ca. 1465 B. C. E.:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/c7/Royal_seal_of_%C5%A0au%C5%A1tatar_of_Mitanni.svg/640px-Royal_seal_of_%C5%A0au%C5%A1tatar_of_Mitanni.svg.png

The cuneiform legend reads "DUMU Par-sa-ta-tar" and "LUGAL Ma-i-ta-ni"

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/72/Cylinder_seal%2C_ca._1500%E2%80%931350_BC_Mitanni.jpg

nude male, griffins, monkey, lion, goat, c. 15th/14th century BC, Mitanni:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/14/Cylinder_seal_and_modern_impression_Nude_male%2C_griffins%2C_monkey%2C_lion%2C_goat%2C_ca_15th_14th_ century_BC_Mitanni.jpg

The riddle of Iron creeps in with the suggestion that Tutankhamun's dagger was Mitanni (https://www.archaeology.wiki/blog/2022/02/23/tutankhamuns-meteoric-iron-dagger-a-royalgift-from-mitanni/):

Tutankhamun’s iron dagger, known as crafted of iron ore taken from a meteorite, reached Egypt as an import from the ancient Empire of Mitanni, according to researchers from Japan’s Chiba Institute of Technology (CIT), who published an article in the journal Meteoritics & Planetary Science.

Unlike Egypt, the populations of Anatolia are known to forge iron daggers from octahedral meteorites already from at least around 2300 BC, with the oldest such dagger excavated at Alacahöyük, Turkey.

However, this is not really unique and the material probably came from Egypt's Kharga Oasis (http://artisticlicenseorwhyitrustnoone.blogspot.com/2022/02/the-mitanni-origin-of-meteoric-iron.html):

...there were at least 18 other meteoric iron objects in the assemblage, consisting of a model headrest, a wedjat eye and 16 model chisels, these are pretty standard objects for an Egyptian burial, they are just made of meteoric iron instead of copper or bronze.

The Egyptians had been sophisticated goldsmiths for centuries already and this only became more elaborate with the New Kingdom and trade with Hatti and Mitanni. It is therefore almost impossible to trace workshop source based on a metallurgy technique or a raw material in the 14th c. BCE, also because the kings were gleefully melting down each other’s gifts and reworking them in their own workshops.

When Tutankhamen was buried, ca 1323, Hatti (the Hittites) had already removed Mitanni and its allies from the map of the Near East in rather aggressive battles across Syria, and was bang up against Egypt's borders (ca 1350 BCE).

The dagger with iron blade named in Tushratta of Mitanni’s letter to Tutankhamen’s likely grandfather Amenhotep III (EA 22.III.7-8) is not proof of workshop origin, nor that the iron of that dagger was the same type of iron, particularly when the letter from Tushratta names ḫabalkinnu (an iron alloy) and not parzillu (AN.BAR / 'metal from heaven’ – the normal Akkadian term for iron).

This letter is evidence for royal gift exchange involving precious materials, it is not evidence for the source of materials in the Near East, for example the lapis lazuli mentioned here was imported from northern Afghanistan, yet in the Egyptian daggers the 'stone' inlays are glass (lapis of the kiln).

It negates the presence of industry, such as an Iron Age, which implies that IVC Seals should not discuss iron if that would have been unintelligible to traders.

Indian iron appears to have been first worked by "tribes", so it is of uncertain origin compared to any writings, although in turn, writing would pretty clearly mark "Iron Age".

The Mittani may be Bhrgus who vanish from India.

This is not a "port colony" as is familiar from many places, a concerted effort has been made to cross into northern Syria. Why Indians might be more important for horses than the nearer Nabatheans who had bred them is doubly strange. The timing of it with the "Hyksos" or Amu even more so.

Hurrians, Ugarit, and the Kassites all dissipate around the 1,100s, something like a big reversal to perhaps a collaborative mythological understanding.

https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-6719bdba3186fd48dbedb985a930d598-pjlq

Writing about the Indian Ocean, Sanjeev Sanyal says that Indians acquired iron about five hundred years previously, and managed to share the knowledge with the two northern countries, the Hittites and Mitanni, who then fought over the choice locations for ore extraction (https://books.google.com/books?id=REaqDQAAQBAJ&lpg=PT56&ots=LJp-7otrO1&dq=mitanni%20iron&pg=PT56#v=onepage&q=mitanni%20iron&f=false).

Another work attributing the first mention to Hittite King Anittas suggests it probably started over Kizawadana (https://www.jstor.org/stable/3596367) in the mountains of Armenia.

In parallel, towards the south, from the Midian-Kenite hypothesis, something similar happened with regard to copper at Timna and Wadi Arabah (https://esploro.libs.uga.edu/esploro/outputs/graduate/A-land-whose-stones-are-iron-and-from-whose-hills-you-may-mine-copper-metallurgy-pottery-and-the-Midianite-Qenite-Hypothesis/9949334551602959).

In terms of their ancestry it is loosely said (https://www.reddit.com/r/SouthAsianAncestry/comments/12m4k2o/do_we_have_any_mitanni_gedmatch_results_what_were/):

Genetic testing at Shahid Beheshti University in Iran has shown that the Mitanis are close to the Kurds!

And while there is not any "confirmed Mitanni DNA", there is this possibility (https://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2020/05/an-early-mitanni.html):

Note that one of the Bronze Age females from Alalakh, labeled ALA019, appears to have ancestry from Turan and the Eurasian steppe. She may well have been a Mitanni of Indo-Aryan origin.

Target: Levant_Alalakh_MLBA_o:ALA019
Distance: 2.4057% / 0.02405669
47.6 IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA1
32.0 UZB_Bustan_BA
15.8 KAZ_Zevakinskiy_MLBA
4.0 PAK_Loebanr_IA_o
0.6 RUS_Sintashta_MLBA
0.0 IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA2
0.0 Irula
0.0 KAZ_Dali_MLBA
0.0 PAK_Butkara_IA
0.0 PAK_Gogdara_IA
0.0 PAK_Katelai_IA
0.0 PAK_Katelai_LBA
0.0 PAK_Loebanr_IA

Yup, she looks related to the mitanni migration all right. Also related to the folks who got elephants, water buffaloes, zebus into the near east in mid 2nd mill bce.

But sadly, she has very little andronovo related ancestry as compared to bmac and east iranian. That too is closer to LBA steppe (more east asian mixed) than pure sintashta type.

There is a Hasanlu (https://a-genetics.blogspot.com/2022/11/hasanlu-model-critique.html) specimen ca. 1350 B. C. E. also called "Mitanni" that is almost all BMAC and no Sintashta.

On the Hasanlu Bowl (https://nezihseven.substack.com/p/genetic-imprint-of-early-indo-aryans), swords and post-Harappan seals in India being BMAC and that the Alalakh lady was violently killed and thrown in a well.

The above suggests Mitannis were BMAC people, physically, who spoke Vedic Sanskrit, which is not impossible if they were Bhrgus and influential to west India at the same time. Or, it may have been a "court language" to them.

It is closer to the New Books, since the enemies in the Old Books had no rites.

Because it makes a new style of IVC seals, one might not think it had to do with their *original* language. But maybe it is just a new story in the old language.

The genetics of India (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5364613/) show a lot of expansion from its own south after the Ice Age, and:

There is also evidence of movements from the Arabian Peninsula/Near East; the branch R0a2 + 11152 (~7.1 ka) is the most striking example. One case, H2b, might trace its source to Eastern Europe and may have entered South Asia through Central Asia a little later, as we discuss below.

Most likely (https://www.ancient-origins.net/ancient-places-europe/mitanni-empire-0017337):

The Hittites also recorded that the Mitanni people were great innovators when it came to designing the light war chariot. They were supposedly the first ones to use spoked wheels rather than wheels made of solid wood, making their chariots lighter and faster.

Linguisticly, many of their names and accoutrements (https://www.reddit.com/r/IndoEuropean/comments/132snot/evidence_of_vedicindic_roots_of_the_mitanni/) from the OIT view:

Except for the redacted hymns, not even a single hymn in the old Books has a name with these prefixes or suffixes but only in the later parts of the Rigveda (as per Witzel, Oldenberg and Proferes) strongly suggesting the Mitannis came after the later parts of the Rigveda since they have elements from it.

Asian elephant skeletal remains have been found in West Asia from 1800 BCE onwards (around the same time as the arrival of Mitannis) and not before that. If Mitannis brought these Elephants then they could've only brought them from India since India is the only Indo-European land that has Elephants.

Moreover, the textual/inscriptional evidence of Elephants in West Asia about the presence of these 'Syrian Elephants' is also found and attested only from the time of Mitannis and onwards...

All the references to Syrian elephants in the Egyptian records contain direct or indirect references to the Mitanni: "the wall painting in western Thebes of the Vizier Rekhmire, who served under Thutmose III and his successor and regent Amenhotep II. In this tomb, men from the Levant and Syria bring various precious objects as tribute such as [….] and a Syrian elephant (Davies 1944:pls.21-23)" (HIKADE 2012:843).

Same with peacocks (which are also found only in India among all Indo-European lands)...

"This fits in perfectly with the fact that peacocks and the peacock motif also appear prominently in West Asia along with the Mitanni. This was brilliantly presented in a paper by Burchard Brentjes as far back as 1981, but the paper has, for obvious reasons, been soundly neglected by most academic scholars discussing related issues. As Brentjes points out: "there is not a single cultural element of Central Asian, Eastern European or Caucasian origin in the archaeological culture of the Mittanian area [….] But there is one element novel to Iraq in Mittanian culture and art, which is later on observed in Iranian culture until the Islamisation of Iran: the peacock, one of the two elements of the 'Senmurv', the lion-peacock of the Sassanian art. The first clear pictures showing peacocks in religious context in Mesopotamia are the Nuzi cylinder seals of Mittanian time [7. Nos 92, 662, 676, 856, 857 a.o.].

There are two types of peacocks: the griffin with a peacock head and the peacock dancer, masked and standing beside the holy tree of life. The veneration of the peacock could not have been brought by the Mittanians from Central Asia or South-Eastern Europe; they must have taken it from the East, as peacocks are the type-bird of India and peacock dancers are still to be seen all over India. The earliest examples are known from the Harappan culture, from Mohenjo-daro and Harappa: two birds sitting on either side of the first tree of life are painted on ceramics.

A Peacock is certainly distinguishable from an Eagle.

The time of the apparent "migration" is almost the same as the "Hyksos expansion".
-
https://www.jstor.org/stable/3596367
Ca. 1,900 B. C. E. leader or Hyksos of the Aamu with what is called a Nubian ibex:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/cf/Painting_of_foreign_delegation_in_the_tomb_of_Khnumhotep_II_circa_1900_BCE_%28Detail_mentioning_%22A bisha_the_Hyksos%22_in_hieroglyphs%29.jpg/539px-Painting_of_foreign_delegation_in_the_tomb_of_Khnumhotep_II_circa_1900_BCE_%28Detail_mentioning_%22A bisha_the_Hyksos%22_in_hieroglyphs%29.jpg

From the Aamu procession:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/29/Drawing_of_the_procession_of_the_Aamu_group_tomb_of_Khnumhotep_II_at_Beni_Hassan.jpg/797px-Drawing_of_the_procession_of_the_Aamu_group_tomb_of_Khnumhotep_II_at_Beni_Hassan.jpg

I am not sure there would be enough reason for Indic influence at this point to say, well, they have an IVC Antelope and Unicorn, although it does not look hugely different.

If they did inhabit southern Palestine, then, yes, approximately through this era, there must have been some kind of Indian landing that rolled up to Syria. Either through here or Elam.

Kassite Centaur with a Scorpion Tail similar to a Biblical Locust:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/66/Centaur_hunting_animals_Kassite_period_Louvre_Museum_AO_22355.jpg/800px-Centaur_hunting_animals_Kassite_period_Louvre_Museum_AO_22355.jpg

It may be that BMAC Eagle x Indian Bhrgus = Mitanni, whereas their more commonly known descent is Zoroaster and the Kurds.

For an additional reference, here is perhaps a useful edition of the Vedic Samhita (https://www.rarebooksocietyofindia.org/book_archive/196174216674_10155804644996675.pdf).

Jim_Duyer

26th December 2023, 16:07

Witzel's information for the presence of Sanskrit in Mitanni:

Again, like the scholar who tries without hope to translate the Gobekli Tepe writings with a language that was not even formed, nor were it's people assembled into tribes, until nearly 8,000 years after GT was buried under the sand, what the Mitanni did, and their connection to Sanskrit, even if interesting, does not have a bearing on the origin of the underlying language for Indus Script, sorry.
It took me years, literally, to form an understanding of the players, their inter-connected natures, and the timelines of the various groups in the Middle East and Levant. It becomes even more complicated by two groups: archaeologists aligned to Christianity, and here we find examples from the Univ.of Penn, Yale, and Oxford, among others, and archaeologists aligned to the governments, who wish their version of history to not contain anything that lends hope to the poor losers who hope to get some of their lands back. Both are biased, and in my opinion, both are evil characters who violate their implied trust towards humanity to tell us the truth. They are bought and sold like candy, but cheaper.

The Kassites rose as a people, and in 1595 BC they threw out the Amorite-Abraham-Babylonians who had ruled Sumeria for some four hundred years. But only for a time and then they too were thrown out by Syrians comprised partly of Hebrew generals and leaders. The Kassite origins are said to be unknown. They spoke a PIE type language, and could not write in any form that the others could understand, if they could write, and so they used local scribes. It is possible, no, very possible, that this is the connection you seek for that time period - they may well have come from Afgan stock or perhaps even Sythian or Hindu. But again, that's 1595 on the upper scale, so no help in Mohenjodaro.

We will find something from one of the poles. And just today I noticed that they have found some type of constructions or perhaps a civilization under the ice at Antarctica. I would love to hear more about that. Hopefully, and I have all fingers crossed, they will exhibit their style of writing, so I can connect further dots.

My most important project, that I need to get out before the language ones, is coming along well. It's expanded a bit because I wish to include info from two other book research projects so I do not have to write them later as well. I'm trimming down and going for the big finale. Due to a certain stalker on here I will not release any further details about the books, titles, release dates, etc. I will only post what I do not intend to later publish, but that group is growing daily as I am weary of all the research into the Levant - it's extremely depressing for me when I expose all of the lies we have been told, and I understand that there is actually nothing that I can do to change this. It would not be widely spread if I tried. So I will do the parts that I can, quickly, and I will be checking in from time to time. Excuse my absences please. Jim

shaberon

27th December 2023, 09:37

No they did not take it by force - that's not their style. They are swarmers. They swarmed around the wall built to contain them and took Sumeria - putting an end to that civilization once and for all, and then assimilating the local populace. That the Amorites (of Abraham's Father). They were not Hurrians. It has been proven that this old idea has no merit. They were the Cainite, Kenite, Sim'alites, same thing, branch of what was later called the Hebrews. It's very clear.

Ok.

It looks like the Egyptian term, Amu, pertains to two types of foreigners. Hurrians and Canaanites were distinguishable; however they settled in the same area. If I recall correctly, "hapiru" is considered to be Egyptian for the people that eventually spoke "Hebrew", it may be a type of caste that the language developed within, rather than the other way around.

The tone I am getting is that Sumeria was like a Mark I with no true offspring.

That, of course, is similar to the Rg Veda--whatever it represented was replaced by Vedic commentaries such as the Manu laws and then the Puranas, and the true form was forgotten until the twentieth century. And it is strangely like this:

In Sumerian: There are words that mean lion, and the translators indicate it could mean tigers as well. Why do they do this? IDK.
No unicorns in Sumerian - they knew better. Even the Serpent or Great Dragons of their epic tales were written in by later conquerors such as the Akkadians, Elamites, Amorite (Hebrews), etc., and did not exist in the earliest tales.

Vedic Sanskrit is the same way--Simha or Sardula *now* means a lion, but may have also been "tiger" then.

Because it is unclear, I hesitate to say the tiger-centric saga of the IVC Seals is continued in any significant way in the Vedas.

The specific term for tiger, "vyaghra", appears just once in the New books, as a Sage's name; the term has no etymology or related phrases anywhere.

We do not think the modern horse was bred in India; it was in the Pontic Steppe and northern Arabia about the same time, ca. 2,200-2,000 B. C. E.

The Mitanni added the spoked-wheeled chariot, but it seems all their advances were eventually engulfed by the Hittites.

We don't know how they got there, unless, perhaps, we consider the Vedic Flora and Fauna article on the cow:

They had also heard that genetics had provided the proof. As Michel Danino has shown, the extant genetic studies, while by no means final, rather support an Indian homeland. I particularly like that paper on cow genetics showing that the Ukrainian cows have a fair percentage of Indian cows among their ancestry. Migrant Aryan cowherds will have taken along their livestock, so this findings supports the reverse movement from what the AIT teaches.

They conspicuously fail to pinpoint any migration corresponding to the putative Aryan entry in India, but occasionally do show evidence of emigrations from India arguably related to the IE expansion. Thus, genetic evidence for Indian cows’ genes in Ukrainian cows shows an Indian presence on the steppes: “However, in some areas of the Eurasian continent, phenotypically humpless cattle are known to have been influenced by historical admixture from zebu cattle (...) In this study, the Ukrainian Whitehead and the Central Asian Ala-Tau breed displayed zebu-specific mtDNA haplotypes. (...) This study suggests that the Ukrainian and the Central Asian regions belong to hybrid zones where taurine-zebu crossbreds have existed.” (Kantanen 2009)

So, in the company of human emigrants from India, Indian cattle migrated all the way to Ukraine. A Russian geneticist commenting on an excavation of cattle in Kaunchip, Uzbekistan, adds: “This find permits us to assume that the true zebu appeared in Central Asia during 3000 to 2500 years B.C” (Verdiev 2007),-- just when the Indo-Europeans were dispersing towards their respective historical habitats. Indologist Giacomo Benedetti (2012) comments: “Then, the presence of zebu genes and representations in Asia and Europe seem to be a promising ground of research, and certainly a confirmation that there was an important movement from South Asia to the West. It is difficult to think that this movement was only of cattle without herders, particularly where we find strong archaeological and historical signs of a common culture. (…) Actually, scholars have always thought of Indo-Europeans as the people of the horse and searched for horses in order to find Indo-Europeans. But they were also, and I would say more, the people of the cow”.

Significantly, the "Near Eastern migratory term" taurus borrowed from Semitic referred to by Gamkrelidze is missing in the three eastern branches (Indo-Aryan, Iranian and Tocharian) but found in all the other western branches, indicating that it was a non-IE word borrowed by the west-emigrating branches as they passed through the Semitic areas].

There were two major areas of domestication: one in the area that is now Turkey, giving rise to the taurine line, and a second in the area that is now Pakistan, resulting in the indicine line.

The evidence of the Harappan cattle goes even farther in establishing the validity of the OIT: while the taurine cattle of the west appear in India only in colonial and modern times, the emigration of the indicine cattle (obviously along with Indo-European speakers migrating out of India) is being established by more and more scholarly studies: recent scientific genetic studies of cattle have confirmed that the Indian humped zebu cattle, domesticated in the Harappan area since thousands of years, suddenly started appearing in West Asia as well as Central Asia around 2200 BCE, and by 2000 BCE there was largescale mixing of the Indian zebu cattle, bos indicus, with the genetically distinct western species of cattle, bos taurus, in West Asia.

In short, the concentration of high lactase persistence in the northwestern parts of India, in spite of the fact that the whole of India is a milk-consuming society, gives strong testimony to the comparative stability of the population all over India from Harappan times, to the presence of Dravidian speakers in the South since at least those same Harappan times, and to the identity between the Harappan and Rigvedic civilizations.

The last line is a little obtuse depending on what is meant by "identity" and "civilizations".

"Taurus" is a definitively western breed that has no Sanskrit roots like "cow" probably does, but, it does have some Zebu DNA.

That is like most Neanderthals have some modern human DNA.

Let's see...the cow was wealth, and, it is in all these myths.

It is not necessary for an Indian person to have traveled to Ukraine.

I have a difficult point of view on the Pentateuch/Torah as it seems to me that major parts of it, such as Exodus, were penned during the Babylonian Captivity. Same with Kabala.

Moses could have been invented, or pulled from some story that was going around in the background.

Yhwh probably was a local Moabite or Edomite entity, and, the overthrowers of the House of Omri entered a blatant alliance with this. Some describe it as the Order of Melchizidek being usurped by Levites. Something changed drastically and then this new king pledges vassalage to Assyria.

So, for example, what would King Solomon have known.

Well, the Mandaeans consider themselves the same people, who reject and deny Moses.

It's completely non- or anti-Jewish and it says some different things based on some of the same characters. But not completely; it is Aramaic. Of course, they have no stone carvings or archaic manuscripts, and so most of their current writings are alleged to be Islamic derivatives. I don't quite think that accounts for all of the background.

Around the destruction of the Second Temple around year 70, there were various repercussions, such as the Qumran manuscripts apparently deposited with the Essenes, although they are not Essene documents; and, the Mandaeans abandoned the area.

They were there because of John the Baptist. It turns out what they say is that he was the "southern branch", i. e., John really was on the fringe, and the "they" again is relative, since the "Mandaeans" are the whole society of followers of the priests called "Nasoreans".

So at one point in time this made sense:

Aryas : Rishis

Mandaeans : Nasoreans

Canaanites: Melchites

Considering the lore to perhaps be a translated version similar to that of the Arabic Nabatheans, or the Yemeni Sabeans, except they are telling us of a different priestly lineage that increases farther north of the Jordan.

This turns out to be very meaningful because you follow it to what the Greeks probably called Hecate:

The earliest records of Harran come from the Ebla tablets, c. 2300 BC. Harran's name is said to be from Akkadian ḫarrānum (fem.), "road"; ḫarrānātum (pl.).

Harran was founded at some point between the 25th and 20th centuries BC, possibly as a merchant colony by Sumerian traders from Ur.

The Harranian moon cult of Sin proved to be enduring and lasted long into the Middle Ages, known to have existed as late as the 11th century AD.

Harran is situated at an important geographical crossroad, both between the Euphrates and Tigris rivers and at the border between the ancient Mesopotamian and Anatolian cultures. The earliest known settlements in the region surrounding Harran date to 10000–8000 BC and settlements in its close vicinity are known to have existed by 6000 BC. The region initially shifted between the control of the Sumerians and Hittites before being occupied by ancient Semitic-speaking people around 2750 BC. The earliest written records concerning Harran suggest that the city itself was founded c. 2500–2000 BC as a merchant outpost by traders from the Sumerian city of Ur.

Harran was from early on associated with the Mesopotamian moon-god Nanna (later known as Sin) and soon became regarded as a sacred city of the moon. The Ekhulkhul ("Temple of Rejoicing"), Harran's great moon temple, was already present in the city by c. 2000 BC. Sin was a major deity in Ur, which also housed his main temple.

Another prominent deity in the city was Sin's son Nusku, the god of light.

The religious authorities of Harran, speaking on behalf of Sin, were considered suitable guarantors and signatories in political treaties. Already c. 2000 BC, a peace treaty was sealed in the Ekhulkhul between Mari and the Banu Yamina, an Amorite tribe. Further treaties signed that invoke Sin of Harran include a 14th-century BC treaty between Šuppiluliuma I of the Hittites and Shattiwaza of Mitanni, and an 8th-century BC treaty between the Assyrian king Ashur-nirari V and Mati'ilu of Arpad.

So that has 3,000+ years of continuity for "Moon God" who doesn't seem to mind being translated. "Mandaeism" amounts to an Aramaic account of it. Yes, Aramaic would be mostly north from Jordan:

https://www.biblecartoons.co.uk/images/1059.jpg

Yes, you can also find Eilat and Gaza which ought to be part of the functional unit.

I don't remember a tablet implied by this:

...Sumerian, and by Sim'alites who lived on the northern borders of Sumeria in Elamite territory. So they have been in Egypt since 3200 BC

I think you said the cuneiform script was discontinued after that time.

Initially (https://www.ccel.org/s/schaff/encyc05/htm/iii.vii.cxv.htm):

The oldest reports of North Mesopotamia are in the Amarna Tablets (q.v.), and show the region as being at the time under the control of the Mitanni. The rule of the mitanni was overthrown by Assyria 200 years later, when Shalmaneser I. assumed the title king of Kisshati.

The city would not be firmly incorporated into Middle Assyrian Empire until the 1100s BC, before which it was often occupied by Arameans.

Is it these you are trying to say are ancient Sumerian, that were found at a site developed by Akhenaten (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amarna_letters)?

Early in his reign, Akhenaten, the pharaoh of Egypt, had conflicts with Tushratta, the king of Mitanni, who had courted favor with his father, Amenhotep III, against the Hittites. Tushratta complains in numerous letters that Akhenaten had sent him gold-plated statues rather than statues made of solid gold; the statues formed part of the bride-price that Tushratta received for letting his daughter Tadukhepa marry Amenhotep III and then later marry Akhenaten.

We go to something they are possibly discussing.

This is the unique Beehive City (https://azureskyfollows.com/harran-turkey/):

https://i0.wp.com/azureskyfollows.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/05/Writer-Tania-Banerjee-in-the-beehive-houses-of-Harran-Turkey.jpeg?resize=1024%2C682&ssl=1

From a hoard of details, a few samples (https://aratta.wordpress.com/2019/08/14/the-city-of-harran/):

The Semitic moon god Su’en/Sin is in origin a separate deity from Sumerian Nanna, but from the Akkadian Empire period the two undergo syncretization and are identified.

Sin had a beard made of lapis lazuli and rode on a winged bull. On cylinder seals, he is represented as an old man with a flowing beard and the crescent symbol.

The bull was one of his symbols, through his father, Enlil, “Bull of Heaven”, along with the crescent and the tripod (which may be a lamp-stand).

During the period in which Ur exercised supremacy over the Euphrates valley (between 2600 and 2400 BC), Sīn was considered the supreme god. It was then that he was designated as “father of the gods”, “head of the gods” or “creator of all things”.

Ningal was daughter of Enki and Ningikurga. She is chiefly recognised at Ur, and was probably first worshipped by cow-herders in the marsh lands of southern Mesopotamia.

The two chief seats of Nanna’s/Sīn’s worship were Ur in the south of Mesopotamia and Harran in the north.

It was at Ur that the role of the En-Priestess developed. This was an extremely powerful role held by a princess, most notably Enheduanna, daughter of King Sargon of Akkad, and was the primary cult role associated with the cult of Nanna/Sin.

A sanctuary for Sin with Syriac inscriptions invoking his name dating to the 2nd and 3rd centuries CE was found at Sumatar Harabesi in the Tektek Mountains, not far from Harran and Edessa.

Sin was also the name of the pre-Islamic god of the moon and riches worshipped in Hadhramaut in South Arabia. The name is of ancient origin, and is retained in the name of the Hadhramaut Governorate of Yemen.

She is daughter of Khirkhibi, the Summer’s King, and is married to the moon god Yarikh, who gave her necklaces of lapis-lazuli. Their marriage is lyrically described in the Ugaritic text “Nikkal and the Kathirat”.

The oldest incomplete annotated piece of ancient music is a Hurrian song, a hymn in Ugaritic cuneiform syllabic writing which was dedicated to Nikkal.

Adad and Iškur are usually written with the logogram 𒀭𒅎 dIM – the same symbol used for the Hurrian god Teshub. Hadad was also called Pidar, Rapiu, Baal-Zephon.

The bull was portrayed as Adad/Iškur’s sacred animal starting in the Old Babylonian period (the first half of the 2nd millennium BCE). He is identified with the Anatolian storm-god Teshub, whom the Mitannians designated with the same Sumerogram dIM. Occasionally Adad/Iškur is identified with the god Amurru, the god of the Amorites.

Harran was a centre of Assyrian Christianity from early on, and was the first place where purpose-built churches were constructed openly. However, many people of Harran retained their ancient pagan faith during the Christian period, and ancient Mesopotamian/Assyrian gods such as Sin and Ashur were still worshipped for a time.

The Cave of Treasures adds an ancient legend that not long thereafter, Tammuz was pursued to Harran by his wife’s lover, B’elshemin, and that he (Tammuz) met his fate there when the city was then burnt.

The pagan residents of Harran also maintained the tradition well into the 10th century AD of being the site of Tammuz’ death, and would conduct elaborate mourning rituals for him each year, in the month bearing his name.

After the Suppiluliuma I–Shattiwaza treaty (14th century BCE) between the Hittite Empire and Mitanni, Harran was burned by a Hittite army under Piyashshili in the course of the conquest of Mitanni.

In its prime Harran was a major Assyrian city which controlled the point where the road from Damascus joins the highway between Nineveh and Carchemish.

Harran was called Hellenopolis (meaning “Greek city”) in the Early Christian period.

The Mandaeans are Semites and speak a dialect of Eastern Aramaic known as Mandaic.

In Islam, the “Sabians” (Arabic: al-Ṣābiʾūn) are described several times in the Quran as People of the Book, alongside Jews and Christians.

During the late 8th and 9th centuries Harran was a centre for translating works of astronomy, philosophy, natural sciences, and medicine from Greek to Syriac by Assyrians, and thence to Arabic, bringing the knowledge of the classical world to the emerging Arabic-speaking civilization in the south.

Baghdad came to this work later than Harran. Many important scholars of natural science, astronomy, and medicine originate from Harran.

In 1032 or 1033 the temple of the Sabians was destroyed and the urban community extinguished by an uprising of the rural ‘Alid-Shiite population and impoverished Muslim militias.

"Sabian" in actuality is the term that had originated from Yemen, but, had become a sort of umbrella for a number of variants, including the Mandaeans and Harranians.

Within this realm, we find the Adad or Hadad that is first attacked by Yhwh via Elijah, which among other things is the first if not only "this god is false" claim I can think of. Comparatively, I would not question that Teshub is said to be spawned in a particular way, and yet is just another participant in a milieu with Sin and the rest, even Indra. These are generally "real" enough that even "enemy gods" are summoned as witnesses.

There is an early church, an early and important mosque, and paganism is tolerated through most of the Byzantine Empire.

Because it, the crossroads, was getting started at the time when India was somehow shipping cows to Ukraine, and, as part of the odd culture they gave horsemanship to, these sorts of things should probably be at least suggested here.

Cows must have been all over the place, and, eventually, iron might start coming from one place.

As usual, when I bump into some arcane Armenian legend, I ask The Mysterious Zet (https://ia600200.us.archive.org/19/items/mysteriouszt01petr/mysteriouszt01petr.pdf):

GarSTANG, J.—The Sun-God[dess] of Arenna (VI, 109-118. This is a discussion of the well-known description of the official seals of the Hittites, as
stated in the Egyptian treaty. A difficulty in understanding it has been in the sun deity being stated to be feminine. This has, however, been found also on
a tablet from Boghaz-Keui ; as parallels there may be mentioned the Semitic
Shemash and the teutonic Sonne, both feminine. It might be an important clue
to some ethnography to classify all people by the sex attributed to sun and moon,
as it is a very primitive idea. The broad result is that the queen was heiress of
Arenna, and high-priestess of the Sun-goddess there ; while similarly the Hittite
king was high-priest of the Sun-god at Boghaz-Keui. In each case a minor
fellow-deity was associated ; the male Teshub with the Ishtar of Arenna, and
Ishtar-Kybele with the Teshub-Hadad of the Hittites. The position of Arenna,
as capital of Kizawaden, is next considered. The indications are that Kizawaden
is Kataonia, as stated in Student's History, III, 68.

That this may be the right track is found in the history of Weaponry (https://epdf.pub/soldiers-lives-through-history-the-ancient-world-soldiers-lives-through-history.html):

The Iron Age marked the ﬁrst true revolution in metal weapon technology. The discovery of iron manufacture is often attributed to the Hittites sometime around 1300 b.c.e., when

Weapons the Hittite king Huttusilis III sent an iron dagger as a gift to the king of Assyria. The actual invention of the process of producing iron blooms to obtain raw iron which could then be hammered into shape is attributed to a tribe living in Kizawadana in the Armenian mountains, who may have passed the secret to the Mitanni. There is, however, substantial evidence that iron making may have occurred in central India in the fourteen century b.c.e. Of greater importance is that the Indians seem to have made iron weapons in the form of double-edged daggers, socketed axe heads, ﬂat axes, spearheads, and arrowheads at this early date. Whenever iron was ﬁrst manufactured in the Near East, it was not widely used for weapons until around 900 b.c.e., bronze remaining the preferred metal for weapons because it was much easier to melt and cast. It was not until the time of Sargon II of Assyria (721–705 b.c.e.) that we encounter an army that was mostly equipped with iron rather than with bronze weapons.

possibly this suggestion:

Kazawatana or Kizawadana (cf. called. Carchemish)

Around 1,300, the Hittites had suppressed the Mitanni and had an iron supply that they declined to share with Assyria.

Past this point I am not sure you can find anything Indian being established here.

For instance Vedic origins of Judaism (https://jasontheargonaut.medium.com/the-vedic-origins-of-judaism-95972b85ef5e) is another Aryan Invasion shill:

The Vedic gods that the Mitanni worshiped would later form the Hindu pantheon, which lends credence to Aristotle’s assertion that,

“Jews are derived from the Indian philosophers; they are named by the Indians Calami, and by the Syrians Judaei, and took their name from the country they inhabit, which is called Judea.”

No, Mitanni honored all the foreign gods, and probably had reason to include Indian ones since the domestication of cattle into the iron age. The Indians could have known where to prospect for iron and introduced it on-site. Then there is no more sign of them sticking around.

That makes two characteristic loops coming out of Makran:

By 4,000 B. C. E. if not even earlier, there appears to be sea trade along the coast which results in Lapis Lazuli being the foundation stone of divinity whether in Mesopotamia, or Egypt, or as we just saw in Harran, etc., which is true in the writings and in the artifacts. I am not sure if anyone has asked if it would be meaningful in IVC Seals.

By 2,000 B. C. E. and perhaps earlier, Indian Cattle--Go, or Uksha--are bred into Ukrainian stock.

One does not find any of the traditionally invasive markers into India until a later period, and then only minorly until the famous examples Alexander the Great, etc.

While quietly peering around the fact...those may be IVC houses...Harran has had Bedouins, Kurds, Manicheans, just about any kind of name that might be possible was there.

What's this (https://www.quora.com/Jews-and-Kurds-are-genetically-closely-related-would-you-consider-Abrahams-birth-place-possibly-in-Kurdistan-an-ancient-Kurdish-origin-of-the-Jews)?

“Jews mostly manifest genetic affinity with the Kurds, and to some extent, with the Armenians... the Jews and Kurds had common ancestors who resided in the borderline areas of the modern Iraq and Turkey... " Nebel et al. (2001)

According to Ariella Oppenheim "The genetic connection was strongest between Jews and Kurds ... This suggested that the ancient Israelites may have originated in the Kurdistan region."

So the answer is yes, Abraham was born in either Urkeš (Ur Kasdim) or Harran, both sites are located in Kurdistan. And in early Bronze Age they were part of the ancient kingdom of Kurda.

https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-3663e411c68004f8d4f0511f0cfa9e94-lq

Not sure what to make of him.

Or what concretely places him or Moses in any certain thing.

I can see that Edomite factions punched a theological hole in something that appears to have been multi-lingual at Harran, and a temporary competition where the Sun God slipped out of Letoon as Apollo until the final Mithraic temples ca. 500s, and then we have a one book culture in the west.

Almost any of the tenets or beliefs associated with Abrahamism are not present in India.

It does import some amount of mathematics and astronomy, such as the Tetraktys.

I believe that is a modernizing development beyond IVC or even the Vedas. I think you can determine things like "sound waves" without having a precise knowledge of their amplitude and velocity. You could probably have done coastal navigation based on observational astronomy. You can compile tables and get good working estimates without being 100% accurate. We, in fact, do this, with NASA's help. In astrology, the historical positions of objects are recorded in an Ephemeris. If I want to know where Venus was in 1,380 B. C. E., I can find out with trigonometry, but, there are so many iterations, it still takes a computer a long time to run it. Instead, there are simply recordings of it, so I can use a program to ask the computer a question and it is just going to read a database. I can't quite recall but the Ephemeris is compiled to something like 4,000 B. C. E.

It is only at this later period that India seems to gain a Flood Myth similar to Noah.

Again it seems to me that the mythologies just have Cosmic Water and the lifting up of Earth, and then they talk about rain and rivers, and there is no "event".

This is a strange kind of circle; physically since the Chalcolithic at Ulug Depe (https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fgene.2022.884612/full):

Genetic data obtained from several archaeological sites show a strong genetic continuity between the Neolithic and the beginning of BMAC, with only a limited genetic contribution of other groups. BMAC displays the first structured proto-urban cities of the area gathering thousands of individuals, and a deep social structuring.

For still unknown reasons, the Late Bronze Age (ca. 1800–1500 BC) corresponds to a major cultural, economic, and ideological shift in southern Central Asia, leading to the disappearance of the Oxus Civilisation and is characterized by deterioration in the quality of the craft industry and the disappearance of long-distance exchanges within the Middle Asia Interaction Sphere. However, contacts with neighboring steppe Andronovo cultural community increased during the Late and Final Bronze Age period (Rouse and Cerasetti, 2014).

The people are the same, until a sudden mixing, and eventually the culture disintegrates.

According to Iran (https://ensani.ir/file/download/article/1667035415-10624-2022-1-4.pdf):

The date 2300 B.C. is suggested for the beginning of BMAC in southern Bactria

It seems correct that this culture continued to exist in southern Bactria
until about 1400/1300 B.C.

In the sense there is a "new culture" arising in "old people", Parpola (https://academic.oup.com/book/27664/chapter-abstract/197781872?redirectedFrom=fulltext)'s information without the extra AIT agenda:

The Bactria and Margiana Archaeological Complex (BMAC) or Oxus civilization rose in southern Central Asia under Elamite influence. Gonur and other fortified sites of its urban phase (c. 2500–1700 BCE) have palaces, temples, and cemeteries with ornamented scepters, wine cups of silver and gold, figurines, and uninscribed seals with “Trans-Elamite” iconography. Decapitated horses, a BMAC chariot grave.

A chariot seal and BMAC signal trumpets from Tepe Hissar in north Iran, and Syrian motifs on BMAC seals, trace the trail of Indo-Aryan chariot-warriors to Mitanni, ruled c. 1500–1300 BCE by kings bearing Indo-Aryan names, swearing oaths by Indo-Aryan gods, and spreading chariotry all over West Asia and Egypt.

Again, this could very easily be summarized as the Bhrgus.

If they have art from Elam, they might have Sanskrit from India. They were closest neighbors of Shortugai IVC.

It is as possible the Mitanni were Bactrian Bhrgus as any other way of making that work.

Many of these authors are consistently trying to say the Mitanni and/or Bactrians took over all India. It seems more like they simply vanished. BMAC went out like many of the others, possibly resulting from drought. Whatever was in Syria is simply never heard from again. These Bhrgus are not known to exist.

That is only a suggestion, while there are plenty of reasons to disregard the Mitanni or Bactrians to have subsequently devoured India.

Jim_Duyer

27th December 2023, 15:27

Well, the Mandaeans consider themselves the same people, who reject and deny Moses.

I have researched the Mandaeans, and read most of their writings. Now they live in the area of Syria and Iraq, but at the time of Jesus and before they lived near Jerusalem. Their ancestors mentioned Jesus, and they knew him and John the Baptist, as a living person. Funny that this part never seems to be published much when people say that Jesus never lived. Anyway, they, as well as Jesus, understood that Yahweh was not EL, the Creator. So they are much like the Gnostics in that respect, but without all the Archon imagery. They also understood that the ones that were behind the Crucifixion were the scribal workers in the Temple who were the ancestors of the Kenites, or the Cain group.
Again, your Father is not My Father - your father is Satan, from the NT.

shaberon

28th December 2023, 20:21

Their ancestors mentioned Jesus, and they knew him and John the Baptist, as a living person. Funny that this part never seems to be published much when people say that Jesus never lived.

Jesus is not necessary for John to have been a known individual.

The Mandaeans mainly complain about the "followers of Jesus", as if the references to Jesus are second-hand reports.

Anyway, they, as well as Jesus, understood that Yahweh was not EL, the Creator. So they are much like the Gnostics in that respect, but without all the Archon imagery. They also understood that the ones that were behind the Crucifixion were the scribal workers in the Temple who were the ancestors of the Kenites, or the Cain group.

The Gnostics are like the Mandaeans because "manda" means "gnosis", so it is the other way around.

"Gnosticism" is most likely a development from *within* Judaism, indistinguishable until the point they may seem to bother or contradict authors.

That seems to be the scholarly consensus, which is not different from saying the Mandaeans are non-Jewish Semites from the same scene.

The main "internal Gnostic" problem is Manicheanism, the extreme duality that re-ifies the lower powers/forces of darkness and exalts them as a type of cosmic conspiracy of evil.

Generally, Yahweh, Archons, or lower ranks are the Creator(s).

But Mandaeanism is again similar, it is a dual layer, meaning these lower workers are supposed to be compelled into the subservience of the higher god(s).

This, I think, is the crude birthing of modern religions.

The new ones are creator-centric.

Yahweh is normally held to be the Archon of Saturn. The exact reversal may be found in Virgil's Ecologues. The original Saturn was a refugee from the Trojan War (i. e., Luwian or from near Letoon), who settled Latium ca. 1,200 B. C. E., beginning a Golden Age marked by peaceful relations with the Etruscans.

City of Rome ended that.

Virgil's wish for a new Golden Age of Saturn has been taken as a prophecy of Jesus.

The main trick is that "creator", who gave the "breath of life", in the lower sense just means the physical body and it becoming animate. This focus in turn erases whatever was being said or practiced about the higher realms.

The main clue is that the Seven are basically identical from India to Germany, and, the fuller understanding is simply them having higher and lower natures, beneficial and malefic aspects.

Since I, at least, am not that familiar with the nuances of the mid-east, I was curious about the older-to-younger track of it.

In questioning the time frame, whether Elam influenced IVC seals--almost certainly not the glyphs, but, maybe, animal hieroglyphs--or, influenced BMAC--we can get the entire corpus from Roach 2009 (https://ses.library.usyd.edu.au/handle/2123/5352):

Elamite cylinder seals have not previously been studied in detailed reference to one another, nor has there been an established paradigm of stylistic development articulated. This study addresses this lacuna by compiling all the published cylinder seals from Elam (as defined here, thus incorporating the historical provinces of Khuzistan, Luristan and Fars), from their earliest appearance (c.3500 BC), throughout the era of their typological dominance (over stamp seals, thus this study departs c.1000 BC)

It's five pdfs.

The Walters has a match for a Mehrgarh Six-spoked Wheel (https://art.thewalters.org/detail/27918/cylinder-seal-with-a-lion-hunt/) used on a chariot--neo Elamite, ca. 7th-8th century B. C. E., and:

A seal’s owner rolled impressions in wet clay to secure property such as baskets, letters, jars, and even rooms and buildings. This clay sealing prevented tampering because it had to be broken in order to access a safeguarded item.

A general art survey starting from 4,500 B. C. E. also says they are Jar Tags (https://www.routledgehandbooks.com/doi/10.4324/9781003018254-4):

Proto-Elamite tablets were found together with clay stoppers and with clay tags; two of the tablets were sealed indicating the storage of goods under some form of administration.

The seals have almost no presence of human figures; instead, some are simply geometrical, and thought to have looked like this:

https://www.routledgehandbooks.com/assets/9781003018254/graphics/fig3_pla_031.jpg

They perhaps accidentally give the Unicorn and Zebu Bull (https://www.routledgehandbooks.com/doi/10.4324/9781003018254-4):

In contrast to the slimmer, non-humped bulls in the previous seal, this bull has a stocky body, frontally depicted horns, hairy chest, tufts of leg hair, and angular tail with long triangular tip.

https://www.routledgehandbooks.com/assets/9781003018254/graphics/fig3_pla_027.jpg

and mention a Hybrid Eagle:

...a griffin with the head, wings, and clawed feet of a bird of prey and the body and rear legs of a lion.

and discover what I would take to be a pantheon:

...a triangular “lion mastering bulls” and a pentagonal “bull mastering lions”. Each frieze contains three complete triangles (bull-mastering-lions) and two pentagons (lion-mastering-bulls).

Ca. 3,000 B. C. E.:

https://www.routledgehandbooks.com/assets/9781003018254/graphics/fig3_pla_028.jpg

Animals in boats

https://www.routledgehandbooks.com/assets/9781003018254/graphics/fig3_pla_029.jpg

In one view, the curved-horn Ibex is Rain (https://oldeuropeanculture.blogspot.com/2020/06/maltese-cross-seal-from-elam.html).This also points out the regular appearance of the "Maltese cross".

Is a Pipal Leaf being used as the "tail tip" above? Are those IVC boats that have unrealistic animal hybrids?

Elam defeated Ur ca. 2,600 B. C. E., and then you find a slightly different art and language around 2,300 B. C. E. where there is distinctly an Eagle as Etana (http://jaanet.info/journals/jaa/Vol_2_No_1_June_2014/8.pdf).

That is considerably more prominent than it was in the older series which is mostly bull and lion (perhaps Innana--Ishtar).

Later there is the eight-rayed star of Ishtar and crescent of Sin.

So yes I think there might be something in the Elamite "meanings" rather than the words/script, which is at least partially similar to the lore of neighboring regions.

shaberon

29th December 2023, 20:14

Instead of a helpless subcontinent suddenly mastered by horse-riding supremacists, it appears that India was trading cattle as wealth by the beginning of any civilizations.

I had never thought of the mythological Bull in terms of what *kind* of Bull.

The oldest Elamite seals show a Zebu around 3,000 B. C. E., and it was bred with Ukrainian cattle by 2,000 B. C. E..

It is a domestication of the wild Aurochs, a feat not done by Native Americans. It was abundant. The Aurochs roamed every temperate zone from Morocco to Korea.

As to what is a Zebu (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zebu):

Zebu cattle were found to derive from the Indian form of aurochs and have first been domesticated between 7,000 and 6,000 YBP at Mehrgarh, present-day Pakistan, by people linked to or coming from Mesopotamia.

Why do they feel the need to say this? What people went there from Mesopotamia?? That is not supported.

Its wild ancestor, the Indian aurochs, became extinct during the Indus Valley civilisation likely due to habitat loss, caused by expanding pastoralism and interbreeding with domestic zebu. Its latest remains ever found were dated to 3,800 YBP, making it the first of the three aurochs subspecies to die out. The Indian aurochs has been found to be ancestral to both the Sanga (Bos taurus africanus) and the zebu (Bos taurus indicus) subspecies of domestic cattle. The last common ancestor of Indian aurochs and Eurasian aurochs (B. p. primigenius) is estimated to have lived about 150±50 ka BP,

The Indian aurochs was most likely domesticated in the Indus River valley, now the Baluchistan region of Pakistan around 9,000 YBP, with subsequent breeding efforts eventually leading to zebu or indicine cattle. The domestication process seems to have been prompted by the arrival of new crop species from the Near East around 9,000 YBP. Human pastoralism, enabled by domestic cattle, spread throughout the subcontinent around 5,500–4,000 YBP.

Zebu breeding is virtually identical to IVC.

Are they found to expand?

Archaeological evidence including depictions on pottery and rocks suggests that humped cattle likely imported from the Near East was present in Egypt around 4,000 YBP.

Domestic zebu are recorded from the Indus region since 6,000 BC and from south India, the middle Ganges region, and present-day Gujarat since 3,500–2,000 BC. Discounting gayal and banteng, domestic cattle seem to have been absent in southern China and southeast Asia until 2,000–1,000 BC, when indicine cattle first appeared there.

Again, that seems to fit the mix. Ca. 3,500-2,000 B. C. E. is what we are calling the Gangetic origin of the Aryas. However it depended on Rice from China and Cattle from IVC.

Egypt received these cattle...about the same time as Ukraine and China.

So far it seems Indian cattle flowed on the same route as Lapis Lazuli. However, IVC Seals are not the oldest form of writing. The older Elamite ones have hardly any glyphs or script, if it exists there, and it may have something in common with something Indian that also lacks lettering of any kind.

India has a non-IVC site, which was inhabited from the dawn of time until about 100 B. C. E., and is remembered as a Buddhist site. Very difficultly, there is an image at Bhimbetka (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bhimbetka_rock_shelters) depicting a humpless bovine.

The site contains the world's oldest stone walls and floors.

Ca. 8,000-3,000 B. C. E.:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/94/Bhimbetka.JPG

Its art is divided roughly into two periods; the "historical period" has people on horses with weapons having battles. The "pre-historical" is mostly animals, hunting and/or mythological styles; in one example, a group runs from a rhinoceros.

Tigers are either not present or scarcely noticeable.

Of the numerous shelters, the Auditorium cave is one of the significant features of this site. Surrounded by quartzite towers which are visible from several kilometres' distance, the Auditorium rock is the largest shelter at Bhimbetka. Robert G. Bednarik describes the prehistoric Auditorium cave as one with a "cathedral-like" atmosphere, with "its Gothic arches and soaring spaces". Its plan resembles a "right-angled cross" with four of its branches aligned to the four cardinal directions. The main entrance points to the east. At the end of this eastern passage, at the cave's entrance, is a boulder with a near-vertical panel that is distinctive, one visible from distance and all directions. In archaeology literature, this boulder has been dubbed as "Chief's Rock" or "King's Rock", though there is no evidence of any rituals or its role as such.

Towers:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/1a/Entrance_of_bhimbetka.jpg/800px-Entrance_of_bhimbetka.jpg

Auditorium:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/6e/Entry_to_%22Auditorium_Cave%22.jpg/800px-Entry_to_%22Auditorium_Cave%22.jpg

At least some of the shelters were inhabited more than 100,000 years ago.

The Bhimbetka site has the oldest-known rock art in India, as well as is one of the largest prehistoric complexes...seven hills and over 750 rock shelters distributed over 10 km (6.2 mi).

The site consists of seven hills: Vinayaka, Bhonrawali, Bhimbetka, Lakha Juar (east and west), Jhondra and Muni Babaki Pahari.

The art is agreeably dated to 10,000 B. C. E., although there is conjecture some of it may go to 40,000.

Then we are given this oddity:

(Early historic): The figures of this group have a schematic and decorative style and are painted mainly in red, white and yellow. The association is of riders, depiction of religious symbols, tunic-like dresses and the existence of scripts of different periods. The religious beliefs are represented by figures of yakshas, tree gods and magical sky chariots.

Okay.

Like everything else, we would want to break down a sea of material into its first parts, and the sequence of design and is anything remarkable.

From a brief description of these Paintings (https://smarthistory.org/bhimbetka-cave-paintings-2/):

Sometimes, instead of being colored, the body of an animal is filled-in with another animal, suggesting a more conceptual style. For instance, some paintings depict an elephant painted within the outline of a deer, which could suggest a fantastical and possibly humorous approach to depicting subjects.

Boar Rock

Also known as Bhimbetka Shelter III F-19 and Bull Rock, this rock shelter derives its name from its depiction of a large, boar-like creature and is prominent among the hundreds of structures that comprise the Bhimbetka cave paintings. The animal depicted in the painting has a large head, horns and what appears to be fur on its back. It appears to be charging leftwards, towards two figures—a human and a crab. The painting is rendered in deep red, which is believed to have been obtained from hematite, and is known for its magnitude, which is over 1.2 meters tall and .87 meters wide.

Unlike the other hunting scenes depicted in the Bhimbetka rock shelters, the scene illustrated at Boar rock depicts a human figure being attacked by, and fleeing, a wild animal. While paintings of boars appear in several other instances in the region, scholars believe that the animal at Boar Rock is mythical and seems to be a combination of a boar, an ox, and an elephant.

https://smarthistory.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/08/Rock_Shelter_15_Bhimbetka_02-870x580.jpg

The figures must be sorted by age because in a certain sense, this is irrelevant:

In some, there are clear depictions of gods such as Ganesha and Shiva, representations of the Mother Goddess and symbols such as the trishul and swastika.

Discovered in 1957, the works are compared to those of Australia, Botswana, and France. A tiger (https://artsandculture.google.com/story/bhimbetka-a-rocky-canvas-thirty-thousands-years-old-incredibleindia/SAVRwtSgp-yFJQ?hl=en) is at the Auditorium.

There is a very modest arrangement by Pathak 2014 (https://www.rockartscandinavia.com/images/articles/a14pathak.pdf):

Dr Vishnu
Shridhar Wakankar, their discoverer, used
to say that, when travelling along the hills
on a train, he noticed the spectacular sandstone rock formations along the ridge. He
got fascinated by them and by their surrounding landscape. He got down from
the train to explore and he thus discovered
Bhimbetka! From that momentous time, he
started studying the numerous painted shelters and he never stopped until his death in
1988.

It has an enhanced boar picture.

The bulk of the gallery is:

2330 humans, mostly males

1377 animals

The rare mentions are:

only 1 cheetah,
1 rhinoceros, 1 black buck
(Antelope carvicapra), 1 sloth bear, 1 hyena, 1 wolf, 1
monkey (Macaca mulatta) (with a red face)

Distinctively:

561 images of horses have been found and
all belong to historic times.

Characteristically:

5 images of mythical boar (three
of them with horns)

We know 20 hunting scenes and 285 figures
of hunters. We may stress the fact that nine
of them show women as hunters.

Some inscriptions, in Ashoka
Brahmi (300-100 BC), have been deciphered
by Wakankar: “Sihakasa Lene” means the
cave of Sihakasa. In the Gupta and PostGupta script (300-900 AD), Pisach is the
name of a person.

Concerning wild boars and the regional tribes, Korku worship them, Gond sacrifice them.

Shelters:

https://smarthistory.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/08/9971146394_69f955a52f_4k-870x490.jpg

During the absence of writing, this may be a bridge through the Copper Hoard (https://historum.com/t/little-man-with-huge-potential.69989/) ca. 1,500 B. C. E.:

Kheri Gujar, in the state of Haryana

The figure has a cast relief on its chest of a unicorn-like animal, similar to motifs found on seals of the Harappa culture, which thrived until around 1900BC.

(image is encoded, view at link)

Boar Rock (https://www.seekersthoughts.com/2023/05/bhimbetka-paintaings.html) was perhaps ca. 2,000 B. C. E.

The Boar is not prominent in IVC seals. Comparatively (http://civiliq.blogspot.com/2014/07/harappan-indus-civilization-main-crops.html), IVC raised:

Evidence of cultivation of rice in Lothal and Rangpur ( Gujarat) only .

Sheep, goat, humped and humpless bull , buffalo, boar...

Lion was not known to Indus people .

Indus people were the first to produce cotton in the world.

And there is debatably "Rudra and his dog" vs. wild boar (https://www.indiafacts.org.in/vratyas-indus-seals-ii/):

https://www.indiafacts.org.in/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/Vratyas-in-Indus-Seals-Fig4.jpg

Is that the person who was chased towards the Crab turned around?

If you live in the foothills, you probably know the crab is at the beach.

We might say Elam had its own "hybrid", the griffin, while lions and eagles were not big in IVC. India had a boar, which has no major role there either.

Around the Vindhyas where this site lies, the occupants themselves are migrants from the undiscernable past.

Gonds are Dravidian or Telugu, para-Hinduized and associated with Bhima and Kali (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gondi_people).

Korku (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korku_people) are Mundas.

Isolated from Munda speakers:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a9/Munda-Sprachen.png/490px-Munda-Sprachen.png

Korku are a bit like Dravidian Brahui, some type of expansion that got sliced off the connecting part.

Mundas can be said to be present 30,000+ years ago, while Dravidians only from the Ice Age.

Both may have been at the site by 10,000 B. C. E.. Australics are thought to have mainly settled coastal areas, and slowly made their way up the rivers, not an "invasion" that rapidly covered the whole land.

It ceased being a "township" around 100 B. C. E., but was used by hermits and monks thereafter.

Locals call them vampire's teeth (https://www.asianage.com/india/all-india/180317/scary-myth-inspiring-cave-arts-offer-peek-into-prehistoric-life.html) and avoid them:

Some animal species, particularly two-horned rhinos, shown in the rock paintings indicate that the region was once home to these animals, which have since disappeared from the area.

So, they have things apparently not even known to IVC, diminishing post-Ice Age species that ceased to be.

They do have a few things perhaps more cathartic.

Rock art Honey Collection (https://ignca.gov.in/PDF_data/Glorious-Bhimbetka-compressed-1.pdf) is glyphic "water bearer".

This relatively northern area is a little different (https://www.semanticscholar.org/paper/Prehistoric-rock-paintings-of-Bhimbetka%2C-Central-Mathpal/5450b9fe3694ca947fd5a7b7c628eb148ea9c919):

Such battle scenes were not prevalent in Deccan plateau or in southern peninsular India. In southern India, majority of rock art sites are related to megalithic burials. Recent explorations have traced visual materials on ethnic conflict in Nilgiri Hills, Tamil Nadu. In Jharkhand, rock art is intimately associated to the folklore and myth of ‘Kohbar’ or marriage booth of a legendary royal bridal couple.

Mathpal 1994 (https://www.exoticindiaart.com/book/details/prehistoric-rock-paintings-of-bhimbetka-old-and-rare-book-idk021/) is about the only catalogue of these and he says fifteen tigers.

Multiple pdfs (https://shodhganga.inflibnet.ac.in/handle/10603/161170) are available for it.

List of illustrations (https://shodhganga.inflibnet.ac.in/bitstream/10603/161170/4/03_list%20of%20illustrations.pdf) shows what came to his attention.

From the categories (http://wakankar.org/rock-paintings-at-bhimbetka/):

Another painting shows a man extracting honey from a honey comb.

Bulls whose feet are trapped in a basket.

Admired by beekeepers (https://eurekamag.com/research/001/416/001416421.php):

Descriptions and illustrations are given of 4 rock paintngs discovered in the Bhimbetka region in 1983; all depict scenes of honey collection from Apis dorsata nests in the branches of trees. Two other paintings in the Panchmarhi area depict honey being collected from nests under a rock, or hanging from rocks. Illustrations are given also of honey collection scenes in paintings previously discovered at Ganeshghati near Bhopal.

Along with a good entrance picture (https://ncert.nic.in/ncerts/l/kefa101.pdf):

Women
are painted both in the nude and clothed

Finding a honey scene along with a handprint (https://ignca.gov.in/rockart_2012/Global_Earlyman_Bhimbetka_BL_Malla.pdf), a deified boar shoots semen, and Mother Goddess has a spider shape. A boar chases a crab over a woman. Gonds eat the pork which is taboo to the Korku.

This shelter complex is called Bhima's Repose, he was said to be here in exile.

Is Bhima a Rg Veda character? No.

He is said by some to be implied by the Manyu Suktam:

83 and 84 in the 10th mandala

which is a Madhva interpretation (http://madhwabrahmanas.blogspot.com/2009/11/sri-manyu-sukta.html) not accepted by Vaisnavas (https://narayanastra.blogspot.com/p/blog-page_12.html).

It deals with three avatars of Vayu as in Vayu Purana (https://www.quora.com/On-what-basis-do-some-Vaishnavas-believe-that-Madhvacharya-was-an-incarnation-of-God-Vayu).

The idea of "Madhva" as the third of these is in Balittha Suktam:

Rig Veda 1.141

which is at least dealing with the three births of Agni.

Well, Vayu must be very similar. It is three levels, cosmic, planetary, and human or physical if so.

If we were not thinking it was supposed to be a person, here is the generic translation from the hymn's Meluhha (https://www.meluhha.com/rv/find.pl?q=1.141&lang=ved&acc=no) version:

What time from out the deep, from the Steer's wondrous form, the Chiefs who had the power produced him with their strength;
When Matarisvan rubbed forth him who lay concealed, for mixture of the sweet drink, in the days of old.

nír yád īm budhnā́n mahiṣásya várpasa
īšānā́saḥ šávasā kránta sūráyaḥ

yád īm ánu pradívo mádhva ādhavé
gúhā sántam mātaríšvā mathāyáti

The implied avatar sequence is Bhima --> Madhva.

My first response is that it is just like Atharvangiras --> Soma.

The second ones not really being a person, but, some kind of stuff a person might be known for gathering; "soma" is not considered a "being" in Rg Veda--is "madhva", sweetness or honey? Probably not. It is also unlikely to be a prophecy of someone born 2,000 years later.

Bhima's on-paper thesis is as from Sugarcane Bow (https://enfolding.org/wikis-4/tantra-wikiwikis-4tantra-wiki/tantra_essays/the-sugarcane-bow/):

Bhima (a powerful warrior, and son of the god Vayu) proposed that Kama is the primary life-aim. His argument is that:

“One without kama does not strive for artha, one without kama does not wish for dharma; one without kama is not striving for anything; therefore kama is pre-eminent.”

Bhima’s argument in favour of kama also reflects a key theme in Indian religious & philosophical texts – that what might be otherwise be seen as an impediment to spiritual progress can, paradoxically, lead to progress. There is also the recognition that desire is inescapable.

Are these scenes part of the Aryas?

India's oldest sacred book, the Rig-Veda, contains many mentions to bees and honey. This book was probably compiled between 2000 and 3000 BCE, and was written in Sanskrit. The Sanskrit word for honey is madhu, which is etymologically identical to the Greek methu and the Anglo-Saxon medu, or mead.

Kama, the god of love, who carries a bow with a string made of bees. And that is not the only bee-related weapon: the twin horsemen, the Asvins, lords of light, have a whip dripping with honey known as Madhukasa. These horsemen ride in a chariot known as Madhuvahana, or "honey-bearing". By sprinkling honey from their whip, the Asvins were said to prolong the peoples' lives. There is even a hymn written specifically about the honey whip in the Atharva-Veda!

"When the honey-lash comes bestowing gifts, there life's breath, and there immortality has settled down.

As the bees carry honey upon honey, thus in my person, O Asvins, luster shall be sustained.

O Asvins, lords of Brightness, anoint me with the honey of the bee, that I may speak forceful speech among men."

"Soma" was said to be hidden "in all the plants", or, pantheistically, throughout nature.

"Madhu" alludes to itself similarly. After a strand of wilderness locations, in I.90.8 (https://www.wisdomlib.org/hinduism/book/rig-veda-english-translation/d/doc829940.html):

May Vanaspati be possessed of sweetness towards us; may the sun be imbued with sweetness; may the cattle be sweet to us.

Such is why Vanaspati or lord of the wilderness is able to be involved with Soma.

Bhima's relative Balarama likes "wine made from honey", or Brandy, Sura, or Varuni.

Lakshmi and Varuni (https://vivechan.learngeeta.com/vivechan-page/3059/) are sisters from Churning the Ocean of Milk.

Bhima, who used to eat a lot and could not remain without food because of Vrik Agni - Hunger Fire in his stomach

or (https://iskcondwarka.org/blogs/pandav-nirjala-ekadashi/):

Jitagni, also called Vrikagni, is present in our stomach.

as to his character (https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/shrimad-bhagwad-geeta-shlok-15-chapter-1-rudrakshahub):

Bheem, the person who was also a fierce battle fighter, but he specialized in warfare without equipment, on-field. He was the one Pandava who had single-handedly destroyed many devils like Hidimbasur, Bakasur, Jatasur, Keechak, Jarasandh, and the like. This was why he was nicknamed Bheemkarma or the Bheem that gives the result of Karma.

Bheem was not just an excellent fighter, he was an avid eater as well. He was so foodie that normal people have a Jatharagni (small fire in the digestive system that digests food), but Bheem had Vrikagni (excessive fire in the digestive food capable of digesting a huge amount of food). This was why Bheem was also referred to as Vrikodar or the person with Vrikagni.

This bulky-bodied Bheem was the owner of the conch shell named Paundrik, which meant as fierce the owner as the voice. It was also referred to as Mahashankh, or the master conch shell, which was the loudest and a very very fearful voice showing the exact characteristic of Bheem as well.

Using IVC glyphs for honey bee & comb, in astrology, these are postulated as Ashwins and Aries (https://sanipanhwar.com/New%20Interpretations%20on%20Indus%20Valley%20Civilization.pdf):

A series of soft-stone artefacts associated with middle Asian Interactive
sphere was carved with a number of stylistically coherent motifs. These include
combat snake motif, humped bulls motifs and other figures, - lion headed bird, hut
motifs, date palms and rosettes along with simpler portrayals such as mats, squares
and whirls. Since these motifs are wide spread within the Middle Asian Interactive
sphere and across a number of cultural regions, it is called the ―Inter Cultural‖
style. The south Asian Zebu is the best example of these motifs. In a broad level,
the inter cultural style is a shared set of symbols, brought together in stylistically
coherent set of motifs, carved on stone that is very much the same wherever it is
found.(L.Possehl, 2003).

It is what was called a "flag" previously--slanted line (branch) with a ridged triangle (hive) hanging from it. Which seems more likely?

As a hypostasis:

Later
Zodiacs were modified to keep the hero figure in the centre fighting the animal,
two lions or two bulls, which is a common motif in Middle Eastern seals. Many of
the Middle Eastern seals show worship of the naked goddess. Hemtun concludes
that this naked goddess (Inanna) is representing asterism Auriga, because in one
seal, she stands on the ‗oxen‘ in ‗Indian style‘. Note the similarity between this
Sumerian seal and the Indus seal depicting ―deity of tree‖ in the ―goat seal‖. This
seal illustrated here is from Syria (circa 1800 BC) and the naked goddess was the
symbol of rain and fertility in Levant

The "important" oxen or bulls in the mid-east are Zebu, smaller ones being similar to the unicorn, which in IVC more strongly resembles a bull than a goat.

And for something that may secretly be "honey gatherer" in India:

This
amulet was found in Sumer and it is influenced by the Indus
Symbolism as per observation of Hemtun. This image of
water carrier represents a deity but generally these kinds of depictions are not there
in the Sumerian style. Because of that reason, Benght Hemtun concludes that this
design of this amulet has been influenced by Indus culture.

Does Sumer have "water carriers" of its own? Is that what they really are??

In a slightly more detailed look, unicorn's filter is Varuni (https://telibrary.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/08/IVC_religion_by_Naga_Ganesan_2007.pdf). This study believes the Gharial--Makara (crocodile) couples with the Tiger Goddess. Certainly in one seal:

Gharial watches from the sky while the woman spears a Buffalo.

This study thinks Mesopotamian lions are consciously replaced by tigers.

Considering the Contest:

This drama is depicted on at least two other seals from the ancient Indus metropolis. In other scenes from Harappa, this is a female deity standing on an elephant with a spoked wheel sign above her head

Asko Parpola writes: "The 'contest' motif is one of the most convincing and widely accepted parallels between Harappan and Near Eastern glyptic art. A considerable number of Harappan seals depict a manly hero, each hand grasping a tiger by the throat. In Mesopotamian art, the fight with lions and / or bulls is the most popular motif. The Harappan substitution of tigers for lions merely reconciles the scene with the fauna of the Indus Valley ... The six dots around the head of the Harappan hero are a significant detail, since they may correspond to the six locks of hair characteristic of the Mesopotamian hero, from Jemdet Nasr to Akkadian times,"

https://www.harappa.com/sites/default/files/styles/galleryformatter_slide/public/indus-tablet.jpg

Throughout south India, until relatively recently, village goddesses have been worshipped through water-buffalo sacrifices. The goddesses have been associated with a male deity call the "buffalo king," represented by a wooden post or a pillar made of stone, or by the pipal tree (Biardeau 2000).

In the form of worship at Kannapuram, a south India village in Tamil Nadu studied by Brenda Beck (1981), the tree-truck (known as kampam in Tamil, from Sanskrit skambha ("pillar") in front of which the sacrificial buffaloes are decapitated, is said to be the husband of the goddess. At the end of the annual marriage rite, after the last victim has been slaughtered, this trunk is uprooted and the goddess divested of her ornaments like a widow. The pillar and its uprooting correspond to Siva's phallus and its castration. The sacrificial post used to be burned after the divine marriage festival."

Later Parpola continues: "If the buffalo sacrifice is common in south Indian village religion, it is absent from north Indian village religion. The reason is probably the conscious efforts of Vedic Brahmans to eradicate it. Extravagant buffalo sacrifices were at first adopted by the Rigvedic Aryans in the Indus Valley (RV 5,29,7-8 etc.), but thereafter this mode of worship is not heard of. In the later Vedic literature (to Varuna) is mentioned in only a single context, in a list of hundreds of different animals offered as subsidiary victims in the horse sacrifice. It appears that generally speaking , the Brahmins have been fighting against bloody sacrifices from Rigvedic times onwards. In the Rigveda, the cow is called aghnya, "not to be slain," and while the Grhyasutra rules (apparently reflecting the behavioral code of the Atharavavedic India-Aryans) include the slaughter of a cow when a guest of honor is received, a later rule leaves it to the guest to decide whether this is done or the cow is set free. The Brahamana and Srautasutra texts record, even mentioning the names of the Brahmins concerned, how in the Vedic sacrifices human, horse, and other animal victims were successively discontinued, and a final rule says the proscribed victims should be made out of rice and barley paste."

So, yes, of course there is a Sacrificial Post to which a victim is tied--except this is neither the original nor correct idea. Both some tribals and some Aryas have taken it literally, and, that group that can afford to dispose of livestock rather uselessly is probably more powerful and dominant than those who don't. So we think they speak a little louder.

Above the head of the hunter is a gharial, a small species of crocodile with a narrow snout that was once common in the Ravi and Indus rivers, but is now almost extinct.

https://www.harappa.com/sites/default/files/styles/galleryformatter_slide/public/molded-tablet.jpg

This probably is even part of a set with Cross-legged man coming out of a tree over a tiger (https://www.harappa.com/indus5/80.html):

https://www.harappa.com/sites/default/files/styles/gallery_wide_slide/public/slides/80_3.jpg

Subsequently, this is informative to the oldest iconography and historical records of Shaktism. At Jaipur, Orissa, Dharma (http://www.maabiraja.com/history.html) performs a sacrifice, and Mother Earth arises as an altar, who is Viraja, Stambhesvari, or Vindhya Vasini, most likely related to Atharva Veda.

She is on the edge of extreme conflation:

The Brahmayamala Tantra has a hymn, "Aadya Stotra", dedicated to Shakti. In the hymn, Vimala is the goddess of Puri and Viraja (Girija) is the goddess worshipped in the Utkala Kingdom, which became Odisha.

According to the Tantra Chudamani, Sati's navel fell in the Utkala Kingdom, also known as "Viraja kshetra".

(an Oddiyana is an ornament worn by a woman around her navel).

This form has only two arms, and a spear, not trident:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/10/VIRAJAA.jpg/576px-VIRAJAA.jpg

In other words, the most basic pantheon of Orissa derives from Viraja, while in most places, Durga or Candi, etc., is considered an aspect of Vimala, and Viraja disappears from view.

Except for her headgear, which is probably a later addition, Viraja is the closest continuity to an archaic, two armed, spear-using Buffalo slayer or Mahishmardini, the role essentially lifted by Durga. Viraja also makes tons of sense read in the Vedic light. Therefor, we see a fused compatibility of Arya rites and tribal or Sabari shaktism, which seems to be a goal of it all. In other words, rather than suppress/eradicate "native beliefs", they are harnessed/employed, because they are not false. Quite different to what happened to El in Canaan.

shaberon

1st January 2024, 20:14

More animals and wars...

I find this fascinating, almost refusing to draw conclusions, because the same information is used by two diverse schools of thought:

The Aryan Invasion Theory (AIT) is *still* prevalent in most western research, they think everything proves a Caucasian force projection that took over India.

Many Indians believe the opposite, based on astrological data and rumor, they think for example India took over Ireland in 11,000 B. C. E..

I like the Great Year of the Zodiac, but even this is no more accurate than most of our information. In archaic times we are speculating in a way that probably is within about 1-400 years of the real answer, which is about the accuracy of those Ages. So for example if the Meghalayan Age means a series of droughts from around 2,200-1,900 B. C. E., it is not quite an exact moment, just like the beginning of the Age of Aries. Or is it the end of the Age of Taurus. Even a computer cannot really define it due to unknown perturbations that accelerate the process by unknown amounts.

Rummaging through the finds that fairly easily give "epochs", I ran into an idea that gives something a little more precise--a date.

This page uses something similar, a series that we are going to upgrade; Bhimbetka begins Rock Art about 10,000 B. C. E., and shows signs of continuous habitation and corresponding images. It is not terribly far from Sanchi, and these are near the center of India. It is possible the cupules (http://www.visual-arts-cork.com/prehistoric/bhimbetka-petroglyphs.htm) and some carvings are a quarter million years old. Nevertheless, the paintings begin prior to almost anything considered to be known.

Bhirrana begins about 7,000 B. C. E. and also has signs of each continuous "layer". It is near the center of IVC.

Rolling along, the article emphasizes Lothal (https://medium.com/@jyotiprakashmalla769/a-brief-on-the-ancient-civilization-of-india-its-kingdoms-empires-stories-and-history-fcfbc8412aa):

If we examine the archeological evidence in the Sarasvati- Sindhu phase of Indian history, we find that the entire civilization was completely peaceful. There is zero evidence of war. The entire geographical area was peaceful and extremely prosperous. It was very well planned and was an Urban civilization. There were no palaces, there is no monumental. The most prominent buildings were the assembly halls, public baths, and civic buildings. So the buildings serve the people of that area.

There are clusters of cities underwater in the gulf of Cambay region. The submerged cities are exact copy layouts of the other sites.

It had multistoried buildings, it had roads, and streets laid out in a grid format. It was an extremely high-tech civilization or the most high-tech civilization anywhere in the world at that time. It had standardization of weights and measures across the whole region. There is evidence of dentistry in this phase of time. Precisely in Lothal. It had long-term grain storage and massive silos of grains for tackling problems. This is how they prevent famines.

It had very sophisticated hydroengineering, massive harbors, and ports.

It has evidence of silk cultivation that dated back to 5200 BCE ( similar dates to Chinese silk cultivation) which proves that silk cultivation was Independently in India and not came from china.

It has evidence of cheese making and trading from other civilizations of the world at that time. Trade with Mesopotamia, trade with Elam.

https://miro.medium.com/v2/0*oYl6gYK2lIm09uua.jpg

And so this was thrown in there briefly and unclearly. But when we follow through on the date given, it leads to one of the most important crises of all time, Enheduanna (https://www.ancient-origins.net/history-famous-people/rimush-akkad-0019129):

Oddly enough, it seems that Rimush was not all that loved in his empire. Not just by his subjects - for whom it would be normal to hate him - but by his nobles and his own people too. History does not remember the exact reasons for this animosity towards Rimush. One interesting inscription from the era shows us that Rimush was even disliked by his own family. This inscription is related to the daughter of Sargon of Akkad, Rimush’s sister - Enheduanna (2285 to 2250 BC). This noble lady was a poet and a high priestess of Goddess Inanna. What is more, she is known as the first known female poet in history.

Except, perhaps, for Rg Veda Sages, but she is the one with a date.

We usually say that Sargon of Akkadia begins a fairly continuous flow of writing, and, beginning the Empire or war of conquest which only occasionally pauses since then.

Sargon's daughter is the mistress of moon magic:

Enheduanna was devoted to her job of a high priestess, and dedicated her entire life to serving Goddess Inanna, the lady of love and fertility. But when Sargon of Akkad died, Rimush was quick to remove her from this position and replace her with a different woman. A surviving poem of Enheduanna shows her plea to the Goddess for the return to her previous position:

“Me who once sat triumphant, he has
Driven out of the sanctuary.
Like a swallow he made me fly from the
window,

My life is consumed.
He stripped me of the crown appropriate
for the high priesthood….
It was in your service that I first entered

The holy temple,
I, Enheduanna, the high priestess.
I carried the ritual basket,
I chanted your praise.
Now I have been cast out to the place of
lepers.
Day comes and brightness is hidden
around me.
Shadows cover the light, drape it in
sandstorms.
My beautiful mouth knows only confusion…”

Why was she cast from her position we do not know. But it is likely that Rimush wanted only his people around him, and perhaps had doubts towards his sister. Either way, we know that he earned widespread animosity, but we simply do not know why.

That angle gets confused, whereas we can definitely say something was done for the first time by Rimush (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rimush):

Rimush introduced mass slaughter and large scale destruction of the Sumerian city-states, and maintained meticulous records of his destructions. Most of the major Sumerian cities were destroyed, and Sumerian human losses were enormous: It appears that the city of Shuruppak was spared.

Tradition gives that he was assassinated, as the Bārûtu, “art of the diviner”, a first millennium BC compendium of extispicy, records “If the heart is like a testicle - an omen of king Rimuš, whom his courtiers killed with their cylinder seals”.

It turns out to invoke India when we begin looking at his foes. Thought to be in Makran, Marhasi (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marhasi), in earlier sources Waraḫše, ca. 2,270 B. C. E.:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/f9/Moyen_Orient_3mil_aC.svg/800px-Moyen_Orient_3mil_aC.svg.png

"Rimuš, the king of the world, in battle over Abalgamash, king of Parahshum (Marhashi), was victorious. And Zahara and Elam and Gupin and Meluḫḫa within Paraḫšum assembled for battle, but he (Rimush) was victorious and struck down 16,212 men and took 4,216 captives. Further, he captured Emahsini, King of Elam, and all the nobles of Elam. Further he captured Sidaga'u the general of Paraḫšum and Sargapi, general of Zahara, in between the cities of Awan and Susa, by the "Middle River". Further a burial mound at the site of the town he heaped up over them. Furthermore, the foundations of Paraḫšum from the country of Elam he tore out, and so Rimuš, king of the world, rules Elam, (as) the god Enlil had shown..."

It is also documented that once he returned from his campaign in Elam, Rimush showed his piety by thanking the God Enlil. He made a lavish offering in the form of “30 mana of gold, 3,600 mana of copper, and 360 slaves.”

So, although Meluhha is already famous for being pictured trading with--I think it is a Sargon seal?--here, they are allied to Elam, in one of the first military things of this type. If Sargon was difficult, this is atrocious.

There is this battle, and around this time we find what is supposed to be Elamite influence raising an Eagle motif in Bactria, there are the Ivory Birds, and then it seems to replace the original library of IVC Seals.

There are some abrupt endings with the onset of Meghalayan Droughts.

Moving through that, there is also a particular time frame comparing technologies, because Indians still believe there was Mahabharata before IVC (https://www.quora.com/Why-is-there-no-reference-of-the-Indus-Valley-civilization-in-the-Mahabharata-IVC-was-from-3500-BC-to-1300BC-where-as-the-said-timelines-of-Mahabharat-was-around-3000BC-and-we-have-mention-of-Kandhar-which-is-beyond):

Now the recent excavations at Sinaulli revealed three chariots dating between 1900–2100 BCE. They are beautiful chariots, very advanced from their time, very decorative as well. Below picture is a depiction of the Sinaulli Chariot as prepared by archeologists and shown on the Discovery Channel documentary as well.

https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-3e6c87b80a6b0ce8a8008a38fd7b3f4d-lq

If you see this is a small chariot, NOT spoked wheel and can only be pulled by two horses. Although the chariot in itself is the most advanced chariot of its time in the whole world.

Comparison

If you compare the Sinaulli chariot with the chariot as described in Mahabharata. It is easy to conclude that the Sinaulli chariot predates Mahabharata chariot. This is a good archeological evidence to conclude that the Mahabharata occurred after 2000BC.

Absence of swords in India before 2000 BC

We don’t find swords in Indian subcontinent prior to 2000BC. But the sword is well known in the Mahabharata. This points out to the fact that Mahabharata happened after 2000BC. Now if you look at the Rigveda and Atharvaveda, the do not know the swords at all but only knives. What does that imply? It implies that the Rigveda and Atharvaveda could not have been composed after 2000BC. This is also one of the strong evidence against the so called Aryan invasion/migration theory.

Rigveda Late books and Mitanni archeological record

Now, Srikant Talageri has done a very rigorous analysis of the Rigveda. It turns out that the Mitanni kingdom rulers were the descendents of the original Sanskrit speakers who likely left Indus region around 2200–2000BC. The remnants of Sanskrit are found in the archeological data of Mitanni kingdom and also of Kassite (Mitanni like people who rules Sryia-Iraq area from 1750 BCE)

There are cultural elements common between the Late Rigveda books (5,1,8,9,10) and Mitanni archeological data such as King names, god names, language etc This indicates a common cultural development of proto-Mitanni, proot-kassite and Late Rigveda books in the later half of 2nd millennium BCE.

Around the same time, the mention of Elephants starts to come into the records of lower Mesopotamian area as documented by Chakirlar & Ikram in detail.

The Mitanni are about Spoked Wheels and Iron.

It is either an Indian exploration towards the highlands of the rivers, or, ambition in finding such an opportunity already in progress. They will eventually lose to the Hittites, and seem to vanish.

This information is also arranged somewhat dryly an an Ancient India (https://fliphtml5.com/vzoec/ohrt/Ancient_India/) flipbook. It is kind of like a lot of bullet points. We're looking for the shape of a story.

It begins in Rock Art, and then the next closest thing to a clock is Bhirrana (http://bharatkalyan97.blogspot.com/2013/07/bhirrana-8th-millennium-bce-on-river.html).

http://friendsofasi.files.wordpress.com/2013/01/picture1.jpg

...on the basis of radio-metric dates from Bhirrana the cultural remains of pre-Early Harappan horizon go back to the time bracket of 7380 BC to 6201 BC representing the Hakra Ware Culture.

It has been found by Mani that the clay ‘Mother Godess’ figurines from the levels dating back to c.6000 BC from both Mehrgarh and Bhirrana have marked similarity.

The advantage is, this is fairly physically definable.

The study conducted now suggests that while the earliest levels at Mehrgarh were of Neolithic age and separate from the subsequent levels, the earliest levels at Bhirrana yielded ceramics having some of the types continuing in the later periods and thus suggesting a continuity in culture, right from the middle of the 8th millennium BC onwards which continued at the site till about 1800 BC. This is well attested by radiocarbon dates.

Period I (Pre-Harappan) c.7500-6000 BCE
Period IIA (Early Harappan) c.6000-4500 BCE
Period IIB (Late Early Harappan) c.4500-3000 BCE
Period III (Mature Harappan) c.3000-1800 BCE

This makes Chalcolithic Bhirrana in Haryana, on the Saraswati River,
contemporary or even earlier than Neolithic Mehrgarh. The difference between the
two sites is that Bhirrana has clearer cultural continuity than Mehrgarh from
the lowest levels to the Mature Harappan phase.

Surely, "Harappan" would be the least useful name you could give it. Now, if we think this is going to be an incrementally detailed parallel of the Bhimbetka Shelter Dwellers, Period I is Pit Dwellers:

This culture is characterised by structures in the form of subterranean dwelling pits, cut into the natural soil. The walls and floor of these pits were plastered with the yellowish alluvium of the Saraswati valley. The artefacts of this period comprised a copper bangle, a copper arrowhead, bangles of terracotta, beads of carnelian, lapis lazuli and steatite, bone point, stone saddle and quern.

IIA:

The settlement was an open air one with no fortification. The houses were built of mud bricks of buff colour in the ratio of 3:2:1.

and some newer products:

...pendents, bull figurines, rattles, wheels, gamesmen

IIB:

The entire settlement was encompassed within a fortification wall. The twin units of the town planning; Citadel and Lower Town came into vogue. The mud brick structures were aligned with a slight deviation from the true north.

III:

The important artifacts of the period consisted of Seals of steatite, terracotta spoked wheels...

Some of that seems copied from the official Bhirrana site which has agreeably called Period I Hakra Wares (https://excnagasi.in/excavation_bhirrana.html#:~:text=The%20artifacts%20of%20this%20period,of%20terracotta%20and%20faienc e%2C%20bone).

The stuff is very plain, it is not an artistic upgrade from Rock Art, just the use of pottery among other crafts.

From 10,000 B. C. E., you could say there are ages of Shelter Dwellers, Pit Dwellers, Brick House Dwellers, Castle Dwellers, and then users of Seals.

That is similar to what "Ages" seem to be in Purana Samhita.

If Bhirrana stops, Nirmand starts, and probably does have something to do with conquest of the highlands of the Beas River, where for example Vyasa is said to have compiled Four Vedas.

It was territory gained by the adventures described, or some of them.

Or, one might say the two oldest sites moved a few miles, Mehrgarh --> Nausharo, and Bhirrana --> Rakhigarhi.

Something bad seems to have happened, which is perhaps why almost nothing Mesopotamian is found in India.

Rimush defeated Meluhha.

Then a series of droughts begin.

Meluhha conveys Eagle iconography from Elam, which seems to take hold in Bactria and IVC.

This would have been nothing new (https://www.e-tiquities.com/gallery/ancient-bactrian-steatite-seal-with-eagle-and-winged-lion) by the time of that battle:

Bactrian Steatite seal with Eagle and Winged Lion

Bactrian, 3500 - 2500 B.C.

If it is derived from Elam, we found those placed around 3,000 B. C. E., and it seems IVC was less interested in them, and no reason why Bactria could not have followed suit more directly. That is, voluntarily, but perhaps later than suggested above.

As to the mythology, they say:

One of the latter is often represented, similar to our seal, looking like a winged griffin which is sometimes identified as an incarnation of the evil powers.

It is probable that the production place of these objects was in Central Asia as it is indicated by a big concentration of seals found there. The fact that they are found in the vast area proves the existence of neighboring relationship in the region.

The Altyn Tepe (Golden Mount) site in Turkmenistan provides with the indication of the use of such objects. A big number of seals found in the male tombs were placed at the pelvis level of the buried person thus indicating that initially these stones were suspended from the belt. According to the archaeologists the ‘seals’ which usually bear engravings on both sides had symbolic or apotropaic (magic) function. They probably expressed the belonging to a social group or to a site. On the other hand, the imprints of the engraved seals were found on the bases of ceramic vessels as potter’s marks.

https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/5db89e0237949d0717de6ddc/1574366794334-828MIIITN8I88H387X1O/SC663.JPG?format=500w

https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/5db89e0237949d0717de6ddc/1574366794327-E36XKME2Z1B0BUMBNE4I/SC663-2.JPG?format=500w

There is a late Eagle Lamp (https://www.artemisgallery.com/product/impressive-bactrian-schist-oil-lamp-eagle-form-lot-210-auction-12-14-2023/).

The Eagle is kept on much later Graeco-Bactrian coins with Athena (https://www.vcoins.com/en/stores/n_b_j_the_art_of_numismatics/267/product/bactria_eagle_series_sophytes_ar_drachm_c_3rd_century_bce_333gm_14mm_rr/1617003/Default.aspx).

By around 1,700 B. C. E. (https://www.jstor.org/stable/24048763), the Eagle seal is Syrian, Hittite, and found on Cyprus and Crete.

Happens to be the same time and space as domesticated Saffron.

The two-headed Eagle masterpiece is at The Met and is really an Axe (https://www.metmuseum.org/art/collection/search/329076):

...a bird-headed hero grappling with a wild boar and a winged dragon. This creature is distinguished by folded and staggered wings, a feline body, and the talons of a bird of prey in the place of his front paws. Its single horn has been broken off and lost.

Usually a "dragon" is a reptile, this is obviously a griffin.

https://collectionapi.metmuseum.org/api/collection/v1/iiif/329076/711623/main-image

This is not given any accurate date or provenance, but thought not to be younger than 1,000 B. C. E.

One cannot automatically say the boar represents ancient India and the griffin Elam, but we know there is more about them in those respective places.

Ancient Bactria and Margiana were areas along the Oxus and Murghab rivers in modern Uzbekistan, Tajikistan, and Afghanistan. While these areas were sparsely inhabited during much of the third millennium B.C., by about 2200 B.C. permanent settlements with distinctive forms of architecture, burial practices, and material culture had been established, supported in part by active trade with parts of Iran, Mesopotamia, and the Indus Valley.

This, and, it almost immediately picks up Yamnaya DNA, it truly is a crossroads like an eastern Harran.

The Mitanni appear to have Arya culture as well as Bactrian ancestry.

Neither the Rock Art nor the tribes show anything that is definitively Vedic; rather, around p. 61, Bhagheshwar Deo and Panjurli (https://fliphtml5.com/efqgv/vowr/basic/51-75) remain significant in these cultures.

Kerala's Irulars worship the tiger, Gonds and Korku worship Baghdeo

This is fairly common in Karnataka (https://theantiquestory.com/products/panjurli):

Panjurli is the divine spirit of a male wild boar worshipped as a part of Bhuta Kola. Panjurli in Tulu means a wild boar offspring. In Tululand many wild boars used to destroy cultivated crops of farmers and hence farmers started worshipping the spirits of wild boars.

Obviously, boars would have been attracted to farmland for all times. Without some metal fencing, you have a problem. A tiger doesn't care about your crops. They are called "The Guest" and considered to be an omen of good harvest in a study comparing Rock Art to Saora, Gond, Korku, Warli (https://ignca.gov.in/PDF_data/Ethnographical_Approach_Studying_RockArt.pdf), from drum circles and dancing, to painting being a ritual and rituals done based on paintings.

Some people have tried to say the pictograms are "pre-verbal communication", however, they are intended to be acted out. At least these tribes continue these traditions. I think the painting started first, it makes a lot of sense, because these are not children's scribbles or graffiti spammed on any available surface; the designs are ordered and limited compared to what could have been done.

In terms of what they know and believe in picto-oral tradition, as words, yes, we would say it must be amalgamated, because for example they have taken in non-Vedic Shiva (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buta_Kola):

The history of Bhuta Kola is unknown but some scholars suppose that this tradition was probably originated during 700 BCE by the migration of early tulu tribes introducing the worship of Bermer (Brahma), Panjurli (the boar spirit) and other spirits although Bhuta Kola is a modified form of prehistoric religious rituals.

That sounds like syncretism.

Note the year given and they are not talking about Vedic Indra or any of the like. These are mainly southern tribes nowadays. So they only partially reflect the original Bhimbetka, which is one of the few if not only places that appears to show a Vedic battle. Meluhha certainly became aware of a new kind of warfare by 2,270 B. C. E.; we do not know if horses were involved. And this point in time is probably the early settlement of Kashi, and around the origin of Vedic lineages that we can only say are material that supports a particular rite, Soma Offering. Otherwise we cannot say they invented Sanskrit, or the mythology of Indra and other deities. My personal guess would be the events are in the aftermath of Rimush. The psychology of Rg Veda is such that the enemy were cattle thieves, however, upon dominating them, Sudas and the Aryas were partially sympathetic in understanding the western chiefs were just coping with drought and other devastation. Again, perhaps the best way of near-dating them is to accept the Kiratic kings of Nepal--which requires the interpretation of the dynasty being kicked out of power in 158 by Manadeva. No, it did not lead to another stable dynasty, but, from the Kirat view, they were finished.

This again is the suggestion that Kirats were ejected particularly around Nirmand and Manali, they retreated and became military overlords of those who were genetically close cousins.

The Sinauli chariots which are probably from shortly after that date suggest something similar.

Bhimbetka however is more reminiscent of south Indians.

"Australic" is a terrible name for a language, it has nothing to do with Australia, nor what I am given to call "Australic genetics" of south Asia and Indonesia, Oceana, etc.; the genetic group being much older; the "language" consists of only about three groups:

Munda (Kol or Kolarian), Mon-Khmer, and Khasi–Khmuic

Differentiated from their neighbors:

Manipuri belongs to the Kuki-Chan group of Tibeto-Burman language family.

so the Korku are an isolate of this:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/8e/Austroasiatic-en.svg/526px-Austroasiatic-en.svg.png

which means they are closely related to the matriarchal Khasi (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khasi_people):

This nature-loving tribe calls the wettest place on Earth their home. The village of Mawsynram in Meghalaya receives 467 inches of rain per year.

Historians suggested that the Kamakhya temple of Assam's Nilachal Hills was an ancient sacrificial site for an Austroasiatic tribal goddess, locally called or known as “Ka Mei Kha” (literally: old-cousin-mother), of the Khasi tribe supported by the folk lores of these very peoples.

According to the myth, a heavenly ladder resting on the sacred Lum Sohpetbneng Peak (located in the present-day Ri-Bhoi district) enabled people to go freely and frequently to heaven whenever they pleased until one day they were tricked into cutting a divine tree which was situated at Lum Diengiei Peak (also in present-day East Khasi Hills district), a grave error which prevented them access to the heavens forever.

So they are in the area that physically determines "drought" at the beginning of "Meghalayan Age". And, again, I have found this significant to the early outreach of Buddhism to Assam (ca. 600), combined with the message of "bloodless ritual" and cotton/weaving.

Moreover, the Ladder to Heaven is that as used by Buddha.

In prior times from these Khasi, there is no explanation about a western branch arm of the language, or, why there would be enough of a mass migration that the settlement is still there today.

If they were not quite "natives", they most likely had shown up by around the beginning of IVC or 8,000 B. C. E., and for some reason they are hanging out near the Rock Art site with towers and auditorium as Korku.

It is impossible to live somewhere more naturally, the shelters are great, the land is fertile, and there is plenty of easy game and good water sources.

Bhuts--over three hundred kinds--are about trance possession, and, the Sages use trance possession by Agni.

That is a curious similarity.

Who knows what this is.

https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-ccd46b14ea1ad3e18d753f1cf29b8d46

The standard name for the tiger deity is Waghoba (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waghoba). This mentions the Garo of Meghalaya.

The Garo people are a Tibeto-Burmese ethnic group who live mostly in the Northeast Indian state of Meghalaya...They are the second-largest tribe in Meghalaya after the Khasi and comprise about a third of the local population.

The Khasi however are Were-tigers (https://www.jstor.org/stable/23005708).

As in (https://eastindiastory.com/the-unexplored-khasi-tale-of-were-tigers/):

My aunt was closely associated with these two were-tigers in her younger days. One was a Khlaphuli and the other was a Nangkhruk(female were-tiger).

No-one seems to be asking if the IVC Tiger may have anything to do with an Indian one, which perhaps is already revealed. There are not many of them painted; could they be significant, possibly (https://depositsmag.com/2020/07/11/the-bhimbetka-rock-shelters-and-paintings-of-india/):

One of the caves is known as the Auditorium due to its long shape and is 39m long and 70m high at the western end. The painting displays bulls, buffaloes, deer, antelope, peacock, tiger and a left hand print of a child. The Auditorium also has some cupules that have been made in the rock. These are considered by some scholars as man’s earliest manifestation of abstract creativity (because the art here is depicted in the form of the shape of cup rather than pictorial paintings), probably associated with Lower Palaeolithic Period.

One of the few is said to be at an entrance (https://ramaarya.blog/2018/03/26/bhimbetka-prehistoric-rock-art/)

https://ramaarya.files.wordpress.com/2018/03/bhimbetka1.jpg?w=1200&h=&crop=1

And a slightly better arrangement than most blogs is given by Bradshaw Foundation (https://www.bradshawfoundation.com/india/central_india/index.php):

https://www.bradshawfoundation.com/india/central_india/chaturbhujnath_nala/46a.jpg

Two-tone:

https://www.bradshawfoundation.com/india/central_india/characteristics/71b.jpg

Zebu at entrance:

https://www.bradshawfoundation.com/india/central_india/chaturbhujnath_nala/47a.jpg

After the Mughals, the site was abandoned (https://www.wondermondo.com/bhimbetka-cave-shelters/):

These caves contain the oldest known petroglyphs in the world, some of the most impressive galleries of ancient paintings and even the remnants of Buddhist temples and paintings from the 11th – 14th century AD.

Back then these hills were deserted and inhabited by a few Gonds – tribal people. Gonds considered that caves in hills were created by the witches.

First inhabitants or Adivasi (https://www.iwgia.org/en/news/4613-the-pathalgari-movement-for-adivasi-autonomy-a-revolution-of-india%E2%80%99s-indigenous-peoples.html) continued to mostly live right off the land, until being given a bad deal by the British Raj, and, evidently, a worse one by the independent government.

Korku have a weird tale with the Crab in a myth of Creation and Death (http://lisindia.ciil.org/Korku/korku_cult.html).

In a more detailed astronomical survey, this detail is omitted (https://www.narit.or.th/files/JAHH/2016JAHHvol19/2016JAHH...19..216V.pdf). From interviews conducted around nine villages, variations can easily be found on the stars or constellations or their stories.

I would think if anyone made astronomical observations and noted cataclysms, they would record the Supernova (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supernova).

Due to two luminaries on a stone, it has been speculated one is recorded at Burzahama (https://web.archive.org/web/20190510190932/http://www.tifr.res.in/~archaeo/papers/Prehistoric%20astronomy/Oldest%20Supernova%20record%20in%20Kashmir.pdf), Kashmir:

SN HB9 Near α Auriga

It happened around 4,500 B. C. E., and was about as bright as the Moon.

As we found when the remnant was studied, 1991 Large Radio Galaxy (https://ui.adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/1991AJ....102.2047S/abstract) behind it.

2014 (https://academic.oup.com/mnras/article/444/1/860/2908851):

A 5.5-yr Fermi LAT gamma-ray observation shows significant extended emission at the position of the supernova remnant HB9 (G160.9+2.6).

2021 (https://arxiv.org/abs/2112.08748):

HB9 (G160.9+2.6) is a mixed-morphology Galactic supernova remnant (SNR) at a distance of ∼0.6 kpc. Previous analyses revealed recombining plasma emission in X-rays and an expanding shell structure in HI and CO emission, which were correlating with the spatial extent of HB9.

The region happened to be mentioned in the astronomical survey:

Korku have an interesting
visualisation of the Orion-Taurus-Auriga-Gemini
region. They identify Auriga as a well [Kunva], which is
unusual, as is their identification of Castor and
Pollux as two women taking water from the well.

[da Hinda, Raike and Chaike]

Yet these elements surely reflect the importance
of water for successful agricultural production.
The identification of mashed cow meat in the
Pleiades by the Korku also is interesting. The
Korku also recognise the existence of Venus but
note that the distance between it and another
object, which we identify as Mars, varies.

This may be an agricultural change from the arboreal villages:

They know Auriga as a bird’s nest, with
Capella as the bird and the southern
stars as eggs.

Auriga (https://www.constellation-guide.com/constellation-list/auriga-constellation/) contains the story of the invention of the four-horse chariot. Alpha Aurigae or Capella marks the Charioteer’s left shoulder or the goat he is carrying. It represents Amalthea, the goat that suckled Zeus; it is near the Hyades. Delta Aurigae is called Prajapati, which means “the Lord of Creation” in Sanskrit.

or (https://balconysunrise.wordpress.com/2017/04/06/starlit-sky-8-auriga/):

Auriga is called Ratha saarathi mandalam in Sanskrit.

We imagine a man carrying a goat (Capella being the goat) as Auriga.

or (https://rupabhaty.home.blog/2020/04/16/tasminneva-agrahaya%E1%B9%87i-some-traces-of-lost-constellations/):

Agrahaayani – Year beginning, once year beginning was happening in Mrigashirsha( Vernal in Mrigashirsha was happening during 4400 BCE).

Greek got influenced by the word Agrahaayaani and named Indian Invakā as Aurigae with the swap of R and G they got Auriga from agra. They not only swapped R and G but also the meaning of haya to “agere” from which Auriga comes.

Auriga the charioteer carries a goat-kid with it. This is the mnemonic of head of Daksha cut by Rudra-Shiva which was replaced with goat’s head in Mṛgaśīrṣa nakshatra.

I identify Capella as Kapila. The Rigveda X.27.16 mentions Kapila (daśānām ekam kapilam), Sayana considered him to be a sage but Chakravarti in 1951 and Larson in 1987 consider it unreliable. Chakravarti suggested that the word refers to one of the Maruts. Indeed, I would also go with them for Kapila to be a Marut as Bhojdeva has recorded in his commentary– “Maruto devataa invakaa nakShatram iti shrute”–Has heard that Marut is the deity of Invakaa. This evidence also separates Invakā from Mṛgaśīrṣa.

or (https://www.raritanval.edu/sites/default/files/aa_PDF%20Files/6.x%20Community%20Resources/6.4.5_SD.13.HinduMythology.pdf):

Within Taurus is the star Rohit or Suravi, (a.k.a. Aldebaran, a bright orange star which represents a red deer) and the v-shaped asterism, the Hyades (making up the bull’s mouth) which is supposed to contain the red deer Rohini, daughter of
Kalaparusha or Prajapati.

Brahma Rasi or Pushan (Auriga)

The best of the charioteers. He drives his chariot (which holds the sun and is pulled
by goats) across the heavens around Polaris. Capella or Brahma Hridaya is the main
star in Auriga, the constellation of the goat-headed fire god.

This also reflects the weird name of the Pleiades--Krittika or "cutters"--which is partial towards the Korku thinking of them as mincemeat.

Possibly:

Parsu-Rama (Perseus)

So in this star/constellation, you have one of the biggest supernovas ever, a legend appropriate for poastorals, then irrigation (a well), finally a chariot. This is at the west end of the Vindhyas, however, other Viundhya vasinis are thuopght to have encouraged stable agriculture to the Gangetics--at first Indian wild rice, then domesticated Chinese rice ca. 3,000-2,000 B. C. E. which has not much possibility other than coming through Assam.

There is even reason to say India once had the two-horned Rhinoceros (http://ijarch.org/Admin/Articles/1-18thIssueIJA.pdf):

Fossil remains in the Shiwalik Hills show that the Sumatran rhinos existed in India
during Pliocene.

But that was over two million years ago.

The original inhabitants of Bhimbetka have not been determined, however, the Stone Age explanation would be that the Sumatran was present in Assam (https://www.academia.edu/50961109/Riddle_of_the_Rhino_Tracing_Early_Human_Migration_in_India_Through_the_Cave_Paintings_of_Bhimbetka), therefor Bhimbetka should represent a westward move of peoples such as the Korku.

The current one-horned rhino is found in Assam, Bengal, and Nepal.