My two cents

[Hawkwind]

Hi all- This is likely to be a rather lengthy post, but I think at least some of you will find it a worthwhile read. This probably isn't the best place to post it. Having only just formally joined this forum, however, this is the only place I'm at present permitted to post. I've been following Project Camelot and Project Avalon for quite some time, but hadn't previously felt the potential risks of becoming a member were outweighed by the potential benefits. That is no longer the case.

I'm sure I'm not alone in wondering if there really are a small group of elites secretly controlling the course of events on the planet, how on Earth could Bill and Kerry get away with exposing so much of their goings on? Pretty obviously, the only way that could have continued is if it had been allowed- which then begs the question-why? My first thought, and one I'm sure many of the members of this community shared, is that Billy and Kerry are actually agents of the elites acting as a sort of controlled opposition. I'm still not entirely convinced that this isn't the case, but so what? If the material Charles has presented is legit, humanity is being offered a way over and through control by the elites. I don't much care if it's a break-away faction of the elites making the offer or if the whole scenario from the get go was set up to prepare us for this. If we're being given a chance to live as sovereign individuals and clean up the existing mess, I'll take it. I feel, as I'm sure many of you do, that this is the reason I chose to incarnate on this planet at this time. One stage of human development is ending and another is beginning. A birthing is taking place, and we are the collective mid-wives of that process.

There is absolutely no way to know with certainty if the info being presented by Charles is real or an elaborate hoax. I do, however, know with certainty that if I reject it and later discover that I missed the opportunity of a lifetime by being overly cautious or cynical I will deeply and sorely regret it. As I said yesterday on chat, I'm taking a Dr. House approach to this issue. If we act on our best guess and the patient (in this case the planet) gets better, then we were right to trust. If we don't act the patient will probably die (or rid itself of our presence in any case). If we act and the patient dies anyway, we were wrong- but taking the chance was still our best option.

So, what to do? Charles has said that we have about six years in which to win this fight without weapons. Someone asked how and the answer was financially. So, my guess is this: the way to fight people who control 98% of the money on the planet is to realize that the money they control doesn't really exist. It's zeroes and ones scattered across various computer networks, which only have whatever value we collectively choose to give them. What say we set up our own currency? I have no idea how much of this is technically legal, and quite frankly don't much care. Governments and the legal systems they employ only have a right to exist if they serve the good of the people governed. The existing legal system has broken that contract and has thereby nullified whatever right it had to prescribe and enforce laws. That isn't, of course, going to help you when the police come knocking at your door. It does, however, establish moral grounds on which to proceed.

So, let's say, hypothetically we each donate $30 as starting capital in a new venture called "The banks of Avalon". The $30 is credited to your account and you may now trade goods and services with other members of the network. Person A buys a bicycle from person B, one account is credited and the other is debited by that amount. If person C wants to buy a house from person D and doesn't have sufficient funds, the members of the bank could collectively decide whether or not to assume the risk and loan the funds to person C. Essentially, it would function the same as the existing system. The only difference being that it's a community owned system rather than privately held. Rather than 98% of the wealth being controlled by 2% of the people, distribution is 100% dependent upon contribution to the community.

Now (this is where things get interesting) let's say one of the initial products being traded within this network is membership in the network itself. By that I mean set up a multi-level marketing schedule for bringing new members into the network. My idea was to pay commissions at seven levels (L1=$7, L2=$6, etc.) If followed that schedule has the following results- if each member brings in 2 new members each and the process continues for seven levels the initial member would earn $494 in commissions. If a new member brings in seven members and that continues through seven levels, he or she would earn $1,120,238 in commissions. This is, of course, initially not much more than a pyramid scheme, but as the network expands it could become a whole new economy, political system and way of living.

If the idea takes off, more and more of the existing economic system would be absorbed into and replaced by the new system. Whatever degree of success we have in economic reform would also carry with it a similar degree of political reform. As it stands, the banksters own the media, the media controls the public, and the public elects the politicians. The overall effect is that the banksters own the politicians. Remove the economic underpinnings of that cycle and it falls apart. Add to that an informed, intelligent core group (ie-Avalon) at the base of a new economy and you quickly get to an informed and active citizenry. This, in turn, quickly leads to responsive, responsible governance.

Okay, I'm going to pretty much leave off there for now. I'm very eager to see what kind of reaction this gets from everyone. I realize that the ideas aren't fully developed here and need to be before anything can be implemented, even on an experimental basis. Any thoughts or comments would be most appreciated. The most glaring flaw that I'm aware of is that the elites would most likely do anything within their power to prevent an idea such as this from being successfully implemented. The fact that Charles claims to currently be in possession of something which gives him leverage over them may, however, give something like this at least a fair chance to succeed.

[ThePythonicCow]

Our current money (Dollars) is not just ones and zeros. It is debt based. When the bank lends you money, they get in return a legally enforceable claim on some of the fruits of your future labor or on some of your property. There are natural limits on how much such currency can be issued (though I will have to admit that we've been pushing those limits to the edge this last decade.)

There is also a natural counter-balance to our Dollar monetary system. The Government collects taxes in Dollars. They accept nothing else, and they will get their due. This makes Dollars more valuable, as everyone and their uncle needs them to pay taxes.

Dollars further benefit from the network affect (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Network_effect) of their widespread convertibility to goods and services. Whenever you hold alternative currencies, say the S&H Green Stamps my mother collected for buying groceries from the A&P (http://www.aptea.com/company.asp), you "get rid of them" as soon as possible, because they are only good for a few things from one providers book of reward items. Never would you prefer to be paid in such stamps over Dollars. Would you like to receive your paycheck in U.S. Postage Stamps or Frequent Flier Miles?

The suitability of Dollars to satisfy tax claims is really just one, albeit important, example of this network affect.

The tax system provides an essential element of any monetary system, that being the counter-balance, the brake, that can prevent runaway inflation. The brake in precious metal (gold, silver, ...) based systems is the natural limitation of the availability of such metals on our planet. The primary brake in our Dollar system is taxation; extra Dollars can be (the government so willing) soaked up by taxing back out of circulation.

On another matter, the multi-level marketing method you propose of increasing membership is unsustainable. Such methods are Ponzi-like. Membership cannot continue to increase exponentially forever.

It is not clear to me, however, that this is the best website to be discussing alternative monetary systems. I've only been here a short time myself, and have hardly begun to explore all that is here or that might be here given sufficient inspiration of the members. But from what I've seen so far, economics, monetary systems and financial matters are not a "core competency" of Project Avalon. I found more such discussions over at iTulip.com, where I spent much of my last two years.

[Hawkwind]

Well, thanks for the reply. For starts, any monetary system is based on the faith people using it have in their ability to exchange the given currency (Federal Reserve notes, Green stamps, Sea shells, whatever) for goods and services. Second, what is "legally enforceable" these days is pretty much whatever the powers that be say is legally enforceable. Both the banking system and the legal system have become totally divorced from serving the welfare of the general public. My suggestion was to establish a local economy within our community and then expand the community.

In our current monetary system, the issuance or buy back of government T-Bills is the principal means of controlling the money supply.

If a new monetary system could be established, the currency would not be as readily convertible as dollars because of the limited number of people using it. As the network expands, however, the value would increase. Thus, the first people who begin using the system would initially have less liquidity of their funds but this would be compensated by the Ponzi-like commission system. As the network grows, the number of goods and services would increase, making the currency more liquid, but this would be offset by the reduced opportunity to earn commissions. Would you rather receive a paycheck based on a monetary system which is 98% controlled by a small group of power-elites or one in which you are an equal stake-holder?

Inflation is a natural consequence of increases in the money supply. It is also a siphon through which the people who own and control the system have enriched themselves at the expense of everyone else. What I'm suggesting is a possible means to remedy that. I would say, however, that this doesn't appear to be the best forum on which to discuss such matters. People appear to have either not understood what I was suggesting and/or were more interested in discussing the supposed significance of green eye-color. Oh well, I tried.

[ketikoti]

Dear Hawkind,

I think the title of this new thread is very uninformative. May be you can change that a bit?

For a further insight in the current monetary system and to understand the requirements and workings of a good monetary system, I read once a fantastic booklet:
What has government done to our money? (http://mises.org/books/whathasgovernmentdone.pdf) by prof. Rothbard.
It is a real page-turner and just 100 pages or so.

It is no secret of course that our fiat currency system is the biggest pyramid scheme the world has ever seen, and especially not amongst those who have a lot of wealth to worry about. In general they invest in hard assets instead of having their money on a bank account (which is nothing just a loan to the bank issued by you). How else could they retain their wealth for generations and generations? They won't be hurt too much by alternative monetary systems I guess.

Like any other commodity, money is too important to be handled by politicians, bureaucrats or privately-owned-but-operating-with-government-monopoly-crooks-of-the-Federal-Reserve and their international buddies.

[Hawkwind]

Well, thanks for your reading recommendation and title change suggestion. As the post stands, I think the title is appropriate. If any of the points I brought up would have garnered more of a response, I likely would have started a separate thread to discuss that point. As it is, I think I'll leave it as is. Unfortunately, I think PhythonicCow was right. This just isn't the place for this kind of discussion.

[bodixa]

No, stick with it, Hawkwind. Ketikoti's just trying to help.

I'm reading and absorbing still as this is something my eyes have been opened to a bit this year and I want to understand it better. Everyone's a bit eye tired with all the other stuff - but this is really interesting as a general topic. If you're going to have a theoretical discussion about something it's good to have an example of how that might be applied in a real life situation, whether that's a real possibility or it isn't.

I'll come back to this later - be encouraged.. I want to read the document recommended too.

:)

You could go for "My Two Cents - What is Money?"

[Pamela]

...Now (this is where things get interesting) let's say one of the initial products being traded within this network is membership in the network itself. By that I mean set up a multi-level marketing schedule for bringing new members into the network. My idea was to pay commissions at seven levels (L1=$7, L2=$6, etc.) If followed that schedule has the following results- if each member brings in 2 new members each and the process continues for seven levels the initial member would earn $494 in commissions. If a new member brings in seven members and that continues through seven levels, he or she would earn $1,120,238 in commissions. This is, of course, initially not much more than a pyramid scheme, but as the network expands it could become a whole new economy, political system and way of living.

I think you may be missing the reason people are members here. It is not for money or power.

I am not trying to be rude but I think that most of the members were led here by spirit, not by human intervention.

[Hawkwind]

Hi Pam- as was I, but having a transition system in place will make dismantling the current system a whole lot easier and less traumatic. I'm all for doing away with personal property altogether, once the general level of consciousness evolves to a point that makes that possible. I just felt this might be something constructive we could do in the meantime.

¤=[Post Update]=¤

bodixa- I've been working on this idea for over twenty years. I'm not likely to give up on it completely any time soon. But as the master in Jonathan Livingston Seagull says- if the time is right, nothing can prevent it. If the time is wrong, nothing can make it so. (Or something along those lines, not sure of the exact quote).

[bodixa]

[/COLOR]bodixa- I've been working on this idea for over twenty years. I'm not likely to give up on it completely any time soon. But as the master in Jonathan Livingston Seagull says- if the time is right, nothing can prevent it. If the time is wrong, nothing can make it so. (Or something along those lines, not sure of the exact quote).

No offence meant - I mean just don't give up on the thread... this is something I want to understand better. Thanks for starting it.

[InCiDeR]

Well, thanks for your reading recommendation and title change suggestion. As the post stands, I think the title is appropriate. If any of the points I brought up would have garnered more of a response, I likely would have started a separate thread to discuss that point. As it is, I think I'll leave it as is. Unfortunately, I think PhythonicCow was right. This just isn't the place for this kind of discussion.

Thanks for starting this thread. I think these discussions are very much important. I will give it some more thought myself and come back into this thread. Please don't withdraw, we are all here right beside you.

[Hawkwind]

Thanks for starting this thread. I think these discussions are very much important. I will give it some more thought myself and come back into this thread. Please don't withdraw, we are all here right beside you.

I think I'll go ahead and re-start this thread with a more focused and complete explanation of my idea. After twenty years of mulling this over, I still believe it would work and the end results could be the beginnings of a global transformation into a far more fair/loving/enlightened social system. I just need to find a way to communicate the ideas to others. I'll work on that. Thanks.

[Mr54]

Hi Hawkwind,


It's an interesting idea that has been tried with varying degrees of success before. I think the problems that always will arise with these systems is the lack of backing i.e a definitive quantifiable commodity (usually gold) tucked away someplace safe. Money is a strange and completely abstract concept that we probably accept as being normal because we are conditioned to it. Based completely on the confidence of a society, when this confidence is removed there is generally a run on the bank. The most popular example of this being the famous scene from Mary Poppins where the child demands his shilling back causing a run. The American author Neil Stephenson has written several books which deal with this matter in a very alternative manner these being Cryptonomicon and the Baroque Cycle, definitely worth a read if you're serious. Also there are some articles on existing alternative currency's in wikipedia here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alternative_currency

The very nature of this type of endeavor makes governments and bankers very nervous as I suppose it would have to. If we could some how circumvent their system of money and replace it with a fairer more human system, not based on greed it would have to be a good thing right? Another thing to look into would probably be the Islamic banking system I remember reading somewhere about an Islamic Mortgage where as it's considered unethical to charge interest on a loan they instead look at the price a property is likely to be worth at the termination of the payments and calculate your repayments on this figure. Hope this helps and gives you something to think about.

Peace!

[Hawkwind]

Hope this helps and gives you something to think about.


Many thanks. I'll look into the references you listed. Bottom line though, the existing system (or at least the predominant player within the exiting system, the FED) started with little or more likely no tangible reserves. It started from book entries and continues to run on them. I see no reason that we collectively couldn't do the same thing. The only fundamental flaw that I see in the existing system is the fact that it is privately held.

[4th Sky]

I appreciate this thread as it is an attempt to solve the real practical problem of how to go from "here" to "there".

That said, there is one main reason that I believe it won't work.

As the network grows the people at the top of the pyramid ponzi structure get more money. You made reference to the community being capable of lending to one person for them to buy a house. Lending implies that they will be paid back. I can only assume that the house would be collateral because I can tell you that people will not part with their money if they don't have a reasonably good chance to get it back.

As the pyramid grows eventually the people at the top have enough money to lend enough to buy a house by themselves. Inevitably someone will be unable to pay it back and that person will seize the collateral assets. Maybe you wouldn't do that, maybe I wouldn't. But someone will. And you will have a lot of different types of people involved because the pyramid has to be big to work.

Also the rich getting richer and the people at the bottom being relatively poor creates the same class structure we currently are stuck with. Hypothetically if the system worked out and lasted 100 years we would eventually be looking at the exact same thing we have now with corrupt rich and powerful people at the top and poor people being manipulated at the bottom.

The pyramid aspect of the structure is what will cause it to fail in my opinion.

[Hawkwind]

The pyramid aspect of the structure is what will cause it to fail in my opinion.

Thank you for your thoughtful comments. As I mentioned in my last post, I feel there is enough interest in this idea to warrant a fuller explanation and I plan to post such here shortly. I've been developing this idea for over twenty years, so it's difficult to reduce all the dynamics to 25 words or less. Please bear in mind that what I'm proposing is meant as a transitory system. The eventual goal would be something on the order of a resource based economy as presented in the film "Zeitgeist Moving Forward". The main trouble I see with the system presented in the film is that of implementation. How to get from "here" to there" as you say. That masses of people would suddenly withdraw their money from the bank, crash the existing system and live happily ever after seems to me naive in the extreme. The other problem I see is that no real mention of how decisions would be made. Any new economy, if it is to be and remain fair and functional, would also require a reworking of the systems of government. If not, the systems of corruption and control which currently exist would merely rear their ugly heads anew.

[modwiz]

Hello Hawkwind,
This subject is something I have been following for awhile. As you know this Fed is the third iteration since the founding of the country. I believe my info comes from the Oz documentary.

The second start up went something like this: Fed weasels it way into getting the second bank started. 8 of these insects are going to partner with us, the government. We agree with them that we will start this bank with 12 billion dollars and we the people will put up 2 billion and the vipers put in the rest.

We give them our 2 billion they take it and immediately do the fractional magic on it with the 1:12 ratio that they make up. They now have 24 billion in assets. So they "lend" each other the remaining 10 billion of seed money required to satisfy their end of the bargain and their off to the races.

They never take a dime out of their pocket. They just throw their magic zeros at each other.

These guys are scum and we are suckers. That is why they laugh at us and consider us as dumb as livestock. They do it every time and always will.

Any workable solution will be any one that excludes them.