Should Christians support Israeli military action?

[Bill Ryan]

I received a well-written and most intelligent message yesterday from a good friend, whom I very much respect, explaining that they felt obliged to support Israel in their current military campaign, come what may, because they were a Christian.

I won't offer my own personal views on this yet, but I did feel it was a very legitimate topic of discussion.

Besides all the Avalon members here who maintain a truly spiritual worldview, as best as they can every day, I'm aware that we have many members who count themselves as good Christians. Do please share what you may feel about this, whatever your spiritual outlook may be.

:flower:

[Bruce G Charlton]

"Should Christians support Israeli military action?"

Obviously not! At a basic religious level, there is not the slightest reason why Christians should support either side; and I do not support either side overall.

I judge by motivations, primarily, and my understanding is that both sides motivation is not religious; but is apparently political, also racial; and it is to annihilate the entirely of the other side.

Since I am against empires, I do not think English Christians should intervene.

Of course there is a lesser-of-evils argument as well, but that can never be a duty - since a lesser evil is still evil.

[Lysis]

On the religious level there is no way. From core belief to conflict goals they are at odds with eachother. Everyone is going to view this differently but I personally believe each person's opinion on this is valid.

I personally don't think Christians should be supporting Israel in any way. They have openly bragged about owning the usa and that the usa will do anything Israel demands. Then to blame the holocaust on Arabs and sympathize with Hitler... they should fight their own fight.

If god made all equal why would he elevate one group of people over another. If it is commanded that thou shall not kill then mowing the grass is Satanism. I also find them hard to take serious when their faith is documented on stone at gobekli tepe just like Christian legends and sumerian legends. With Christianity that can at least be traced before its current form.

Before Jesus it was serapis worship and before serapis it was horus and before horus it was ningishzida. Yet if you look at the Hebrew God table you can simply count... 6th from cornerstone is Abram. 6 from Abram is the star of David. 6th seat at the god table is the throne of their messiah.

I know people will argue that but follow the narrative, why is terah a separate branch if he was the father of Abraham whom Abraham burned alive in his home for being an idol maker. Why would terah come after Abraham if terah was the father.

The history between the Jewish people and Christians is also some of the most barbaric history in human history. Christians have been supporting Israel since the 1940s and what has that gained Christians? They are being over run all over the world and where is the jews to say hey stop messing with our friends?

It's about time Christians realize what faith in God really means. To take demands and orders from fascists and marxists is anti god, to push back against fascism and communism is godly.

[pabranno]

Bill,
thank you for raising this issue. It’s been heavy on my heart. My conscience is repelled on so many levels.
I understand the situation as Tolstoy stated in War and Peace: there are bigger hands and bigger stakes behind what we experience as a temporal, historical event. Napoleon was a puppet through his eyes. It’s maddening, and tragic. I believe with all my heart the real truth behind Israel/Gaza is on a spiritual level. I don’t like it, I will never understand it, it breaks my heart. I believe it has been ordained. Who can fathom why, and what does that imply about the nature of God? The nature of humans? Who can really say. I understand most here on Avalon will find this perspective repugnant and ignorant, and a cowardly cop out.

We all have our truths and perspectives. It was important to me to have the courage to share mine.

As I listen to all the voices here on Avalon, over many years, I find myself reshaping on many levels. I look forward to carefully considering all offered perspectives on this issue that affects us all so deeply.

Pamela
(Whew )

[Ewan]

In my experience most, if not the majority, of Christians - or followers of any relegious denomination really - are good at 'paying lip service' to their chosen belief system. Very few can 'walk the walk' though.

Personally I cannot begin to comprehend the mental gymnastics required to conclude one had to support any side in a 'Hell in microcosm' conflagration because they are a Christian (or any other). In fact it seems to me that would go against the prime teachings of Jesus, they're not exactly throwing the moneylenders out of the temple here - it is more like the fire and brimstone of a yahweh jealous god. Perhaps it comes down to that, do you as a Christian subscribe to New Testament thinking or Old Testament thinking. I don't think you can pick and choose depending on circumstance.

[Brigantia]

I do follow a blog that as well as having a topic that interests me, has a Catholic emphasis. The blog is urging prayers for both sides to reach peace with no emphasis for either side to 'win' and that seems to me to be the Christian way forward.

[Bill Ryan]

In my experience most, if not the majority, of Christians - or followers of any relegious denomination really - are good at 'paying lip service' to their chosen belief system. Very few can 'walk the walk' though.

Personally I cannot begin to comprehend the mental gymnastics required to conclude one had to support any side in a 'Hell in microcosm' conflagration because they are a Christian (or any other). In fact it seems to me that would go against the prime teachings of Jesus, they're not exactly throwing the moneylenders out of the temple here - it is more like the fire and brimstone of a yahweh jealous god. Perhaps it comes down to that, do you as a Christian subscribe to New Testament thinking or Old Testament thinking. I don't think you can pick and choose depending on circumstance.

Marcion (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marcion_of_Sinope) (85—160 AD) was the first scholar to point out that the angry, vengeful, ruthless, punishing God of the Old Testament (Jehovah) and the loving God of the New Testament seemed to be two entirely different beings — with entirely different teachings and value systems.

For this inconvenient truth (which I'm personally persuaded is very valid), despite having been a wealthy financial donor to the early Roman Church, he was immediately excommunicated.

It appears that Netanyahu's militant political convictions are entirely Old Testament based. Many have argued, following from where Marcion left off, that the Old Testament Jehovah is not only a different being than the New Testament God (who Jesus is claimed by many to have represented), but is actually what Gnostics call the Demiurge.

The Demiurge (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demiurge) is a fundamentally materialistic, self-serving and evil being. Many might suspect that Netanyahu is woven from similar cloth.

:flower:

[Mark (Star Mariner)]

The stance of "supporting military action" is paradoxical to a true Christian, or should be, if they understood a single thing that Jesus taught.

[Lysis]

I like what Bill points out about new vs old testament. The god of both bibles is very different. People can point out left and right the influence of enki and enlil on the bible. But it can also be pointed out the influence of egyptian gods/deities.

There is so much confusion not discussed about egypts first RA which is what the god of the bible is. We get the stories of thoth/ningishzida and marduk. But the first RA was Shai. This was the name of ningishzida.

That history was mostly erased after the rule of marduk then the war between marduk and ningishzida. Marduk demanded that only he be worshipped above all and so he was the god of the old testament. But with the new testament you can trace ningishzida as John the Baptist, archangel michael, enoch, lucifer and Jesus.

Because of so much change of word definitions and poor translations we get stories of a burning bush when actually the story is of a mountain on fire. Wine rituals replaced manga which was a drink of cannabis, ephedra and DMT. So even with what people believe about Jesus it's very understandable why jews reject Jesus.

One being the history of crucifixion not aligning with the timeline of jesus by approximately 100 years. Or the merger of Zeus and agathos daimon to make serapis which was the Christian faith for nearly 3000 years before the rise of jesus worship.

It's a case of everybody is right and everybody is wrong. Nobody wants to be on the wrong side of history yet nobody is willing to admit they are wrong when they have mountains of truth in antarctica in the victorialands region.

The average person of any faith is live and let live for the most part. The extremists and fanatics keep pushing conflict instead of understanding. I really want to see these people explain how a 50 to 65 foot tall humanoid that reproduces by egg can knock up a 5 foot human. In stone the anunnaki are portrayed holding a pinecone... an egg makes more sense with the legends of demi gods.

Even end times prophecy is not correct. You have the book of revelations which talks of the end of days and war and Jesus leading an army against evil. But when you look into the other end times prophecies such as told by Enoch or Thoth they tell a very different story.

They speak that in the end times nobody would know the messiah for nobody believes the claims for the world would have been mislead to follow false prophets and messiahs. Good people would be prisoned and the insane zero accountability and elevated above others. Truth would no longer exist for the world has been educated on lies. That in the end times the messiah would expose the corruption of the church and restore faith in God.

Even the original Bible was called "Thoth". Which stands for "the holiest of the holys". So for anyone who does the studies and research this entire conflict with Israel is bad news as its all religious theatrics following a script. During the Cuba missile crisis the usa was going to project a hologram of jesus from a submarine to demoralize Cuba and became recognized as part of blue beam.

[East Sun]

Does either side make a concerted effort to reach a peaceful agreement?

I try to disregard religious implications and by nature am in favor of the underdog, so I would
not support Israel.

[thepainterdoug]

no one should

[Hamish]

Hello,

No.

[BMJ]

NO.

Why?

Israeli created this false flag and Hamas took the bait. They knew the consequences death of Israeli's to justify retaliation and thereafter deaths of Palestinians.

Neither had genuine concerns for their people, this military action by both sides is motivated by politics.

They real victims are Israeli people and Palestinians whom were " murdered by these leaders ".

If both Israeli government and Hamas had real concern for their people they would ensure peace between Israel and the Arab world, from which the entire middle east could prosper.

So regardless of what the bible has to say on this topic Christians should not support this military action as it was deliberate and based on politics.

[Matthew]

Haha great question.

Oof. Good Christian? By its own dogma the unworthy are empowered with a down-payment of Holy Spirit. 'Should' they support Israel.. Ack, 'should' is such an ugly word; it smells of rules, when we are invited to act on the conviction, blessings and gifts of the Holy Spirit. We are ultimately abuse victims in this realm, but Jesus never paints it that way. Instead we are invited to follow his voice out of the abuse which is a straight and narrow path. But its really hard to do this by looking for a straight and narrow paths because there are lots of them. The down-payment of the Holy Spirit empowers us before we are worthy, so if you don't feel worthy it's because we're not. But we didn't chose this. Jesus did. So yes, of course you might not feel worthy but it was chosen FOR you. Don't let the enemy trick you out of this.

A Christian would believe Israel will win as long as they worship God. Therefore if we petition mercy for anyone it must start with her enemies but also of course include Israel. We are encouraged to be unconditional, and look at everyone as a child of God. Israel are the front line leading Gods movement and will be the last to join us with the Messiah. We don't get out of this trap by focusing on injustices or improving... we're well past that, it's only going to get worse that way. Our only way out is by the blood and mercy of Jesus, following his voice. The story goes there are bad times ahead then they think they find the Messiah, but it isn't Him. Then worse times for a bit, then they discover Jesus is the Messiah.

[Pam]

I like what Bill points out about new vs old testament. The god of both bibles is very different. People can point out left and right the influence of enki and enlil on the bible. But it can also be pointed out the influence if egyptian gods/deities. There is so much confusion not discussed about egypts first RA which is what the god of the bible is. We get the stories of thoth/ningishzida and marduk. But the first RA was Shai. This was the name of ningishzida. That history was mostly erased after the rule of marduk then the war between marduk and ningishzida. Marduk demanded that only he be worshipped above all and so he was the god of the old testament. But with the new testament you can trace ningishzida as John the Baptist, archangel michael, enoch, lucifer and Jesus. Because of so much change of word definitions and poor translations we get stories of a burning bush when actually the story is of a mountain on fire. Wine rituals replaced manga which was a drink of cannabis, ephedra and DMT. So even with what people believe about Jesus it's very understandable why jews reject Jesus. One being the history of crucifixion not aligning with the timeline of jesus by approximately 100 years. Or the merger of Zeus and agathos daimon to make serapis which was the Christian faith for nearly 3000 years before the rise of jesus worship. It's a case of everybody is right and everybody is wrong. Nobody wants to be on the wrong side of history yet nobody is willing to admit they are wrong when they have mountains of truth in antarctica in the victorialands region. The average person of any faith is live and let live for the most part. The extremists and fanatics keep pushing conflict instead of understanding. I really want to see these people explain how a 50 to 65 foot tall humanoid that reproduces by egg can knock up a 5 foot human. In stone the anunnaki are portrayed holding a pinecone... an egg makes more sense with the legends of demi gods. Even end times prophecy is not correct. You have the book of revelations which talks of the end of days and war and Jesus leading an army against evil. But when you look into the other end times prophecies such as told by Enoch or Thoth they tell a very different story. They speak that in the end times nobody would know the messiah for nobody believes the claims for the world would have been mislead to follow false prophets and messiahs. Good people would be prisoned and the insane zero accountability and elevated above others. Truth would no longer exist for the world has been educated on lies. That in the end times the messiah would expose the corruption of the church and restore faith in God. Even the original Bible was called "Thoth". Which stands for "the holiest of the holys". So for anyone who does the studies and research this entire conflict with Israel is bad news as its all religious theatrics following a script. During the Cuba missile crisis the usa was going to project a hologram of jesus from a submarine to demoralize Cuba and became recognized as part of blue beam.

Welcome to forum, Lysis!!!! You pose some very valid questions. I always wondered how the Nephilim, human breeding and birth worked if one takes the story literally. I look forward to hearing more from you.

[eagle0027]

Supporting Isreals clear intent to slaughter and take the land of others by anyone regardless of faith is condoning their actions.
The gods that are being worshiped and followed are pretty evil are they not????
These followers now have enough nasty war toys to lay waste to the planet unless they start treating others as they wish to be treated.

[Gwin Ru]

...

... the pieces of the puzzle:

The Corruption Of The Abrahamic Religions Part 1 (https://odysee.com/@RoystonPotter:b/The-Corruption-Of-The-Abrahamic-Religions-Part-1:e) 37:19

December 19, 2023

https://thumbnails.odycdn.com/optimize/s:64:0/quality:95/plain/https://thumbnails.lbry.com/UCEo9S5mMQ7z4n7ZiuUoBFRw roypotterqa (https://odysee.com/@RoystonPotter:b) @RoystonPotter
(https://odysee.com/@RoystonPotter:b)

@RoystonPotter:b/The-Corruption-Of-The-Abrahamic-Religions-Part-1:e

[grapevine]

I was going to say that wars should have nothing to do with religion, as wanton killing is against the ethos of all of them, but of course many wars have been caused solely because of it. And it may be surprising to some - it certainly was to me - that on googling "when was the last time that the world was free of wars", the answer is:

"Historians might quibble over the exact details, but by most accounts there are no periods in history that have been free from war".

What does that tell you about humanity? :silent:

[Pam]

I remember as a young child adhering to the belief system that the human race was evolving on a moral level as well as an intellectual level. This would lead to a world that was better at every level. Greater equality of wealth and fairer distribution of resources. The world would become kinder and we would solve issues of pollution and our cruelty to the animals and all beings that we share this reality with. It seems only logical that we learn from our mistakes. I still believe this would be the logical course of things. The reality has created quite a different outcome.

It appears to me that in my life time we have been on a continuous trajectory of de-evolution, the exact opposite of my naive childhood vision of the future. This supports the concept of a reality construct being one of experiencing an inversion of all things that would prove to the betterment of mankind and all the life forms that co-inhabit this reality. There is the narrative(s) that we are programmed with and through the bewitching power of cognitive dissonance, the uncanny ability to hold two contradictory belief systems at the same time, most of the time not even being aware of it. There is the reality that is actually occurring that we can somehow rationize through varying degrees of cognitive dissonance and through an assortment of belief systems and our willingness to accept them, often without much examination.

I used to believe that I must be particularly dense when it came to wars because I had such a hard time understanding the causes of each of the events. It took a long time to realize that the issue was not my inability to comprehend, it had much more to do with the absurdity, lies, and manipulation of belief systems to hijack human support for any of this. Varying belief systems and monetary status and control of resources seem to be effective ways of manipulating humans into participation. Creating "righteous indignation" is also a great manipulation tool. (I speak from experience here).....

Of course, it is never the ones that create the storyline that lead us to participate.

What kind of God would wish participation of this evil on anything or anyone?

My conclusion is that mankind is currently devolving and will have to make a decisive decision to end participation in any of this madness. It may be the whole point of our experience here. Sovereign self vs hive mind.. Just a consideration.

We need to ask ourselves if we want to participate or take any sides with any of this?

The final one is the biggie. What thinking process allows us to even consider taking a side in any if this? How can we make any of this ok.... Remember, Netanyahu's kid was in Miami on vacation for at least part of this...Does God approve of that? Does the creator of life forms create a reality where we have to kill other life forms to live? The whole predator/prey dynamic that acts out at in fractal form throughout this reality construct.

There is something really off about the whole thing. I know my response will most likely not be very well liked. I do not in any way wish to demean anyone who does not see things from my perspective. I respect whatever anyone believes and am grateful that they care enough to have a perspective and have given consideration to the issue.

What I love about this forum is that we can share different perspectives. This is getting rarer by the day. So I celebrate the right and now the privilege of agreeing to disagree.

Love, Pam

[Tam]

I believe the Jewish people, like any people, deserve to have a homeland and a country in which they can feel safe.

I do not believe Israelis, like any people, have the right to invade or occupy another people, or inflict genocide upon them.

As a non-practicing Jew myself, I thought we all learned long ago just how horrific genocide can be.

I won't pretend to be educated enough about the longstanding sociopolitical history of Israel and Palestine to have a proper opinion on what's currently going on.

So I'll let the above statements stand for themselves.

One last thing I will say, though, is I've seen a terrifying rise of casual antisemitism ever since the immediate aftermath of October 7th, and this terrifies me. I'm not a Zionist, and I cannot stand when any kind of accusation of ___-ism is hurled around casually to weaponize innocent people into silence, but this is not the kind of thing I'm talking about.

Just something to be mindful of as this mess gets worse.

[Ravenlocke]

I’ve been asking the question myself, why Christians not Catholics support Israel. It’s been going on long before the current conflict. I’ve noticed tv Christian commercials for the poor Jews, church banners, etc., prayers, etc Apparently evangelical christians support Israel because of the end times prophecy among other reasons. The following article sheds some light on this logic.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/oct/30/us-evangelical-christians-israel-hamas-war

‘This war is prophetically significant’: why US evangelical Christians support Israel
One strand of evangelical theology holds that the return of Jews to the region starts the clock ticking on a seven-year armageddon, after which Jesus Christ will return

‘What will come soon [is] the anti-Christ and his seven year empire that will be destroyed in the battle of armageddon. Then Jesus Christ will set up his throne in the city of Jerusalem. He will establish a kingdom that will never end.’

It didn’t take long for many evangelical Christian groups in America to show their support for Israel.

Hours after Hamas attacked the country on 7 October, killing more than 1,400 people, Christians United for Israel, an evangelical lobbying group which claims to have more than 10 million members, posted a message to on X, formerly known as Twitter.

“To the terrorists who have chosen this fight, hear this, what you do to Israel, god will do to you. Despite today’s weeping, joy will come because he [god] who watches over Israel neither slumbers nor sleeps,” CUFI, whose founder believes the presence of Jews in Israel is a precursor to Jesus Christ returning to Earth, wrote.

Soon an “Evangelical statement in support of Israel” was issued by the ethics and religion liberty commission – an arm of the Southern Baptist Convention, a denomination which has 45,000 churches in the US.

In the statement, 2,000 evangelical leaders – not all were named – said they “fully support Israel’s right and duty to defend itself against further attack”. Little credence was given to the Palestinians who would soon find themselves under attack: more than 8,000 people in Gaza have now been killed by Israeli bombardments, according to Gaza’s health ministry .

“While our theological perspectives on Israel and the Church may vary, we are unified in calling attacks against Jewish people especially troubling as they have been often targeted by their neighbors since God called them as His people in the days of Abraham (Gen. 12:1-3),” the evangelical statement said.

“In keeping with Christian Just War tradition, we also affirm the legitimacy of Israel’s right to respond against those who have initiated these attacks as Romans 13 grants governments the power to bear the sword against those who commit such evil acts against innocent life.”

The more than 90 named signatories – four were women, the rest men – included the current president, and eight former presidents, of the Southern Baptist Convention, among other influential evangelicals.

For people not immersed in evangelicalism – a conservative strand of Christianity which emphasises adherence to the Bible – the overt biblical references may have seemed unusual to hear in a geopolitical context.

Romans 13 – the 13th chapter of the Epistle to the Romans in the New Testament – is essentially a lengthy treatise on the importance of submitting to bureaucracy, which states:

“Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and you will be commended. For the one in authority is God’s servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for rulers do not bear the sword for no reason.”

For those more familiar with the evangelical world, the vehemence of the support has not been a surprise, given the importance to evangelicals of an Israel inhabited by Jewish people. One main strand of evangelical theology holds that the return of Jews to the region starts the clock ticking on a seven-year armageddon, after which Jesus Christ will return.

To that end, the issue of Israel and Palestine has dominated sermons at evangelical churches over the past two Sundays, said Daniel Hummel, a historian of American religion, and the author of Covenant Brothers: Evangelicals, Jews, and US-Israeli Relations.

“The overwhelming theme has been: this war is prophetically significant, but no one is willing to really claim exactly how,” Hummel said.

“And that’s been a long tradition of sort of hedging your bets and getting whatever you can in terms of sort of interest and eyeballs, by declaring that there’s something significant here, but once you start saying specific things and you’re sort of on the hook, it doesn’t turn out that way.”

The rush to respond, and the statements in support of Israel, were not surprising to those aware of the deep feeling evangelicals have for Israel.

Broadly speaking, some evangelicals believe that Jewish people returning to Israel following the 1917 ​​Balfour Declaration, a British statement which called for “the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people”, was key to end times, when God will purge sinners and Jesus Christ will return.

John Hagee, an evangelical pastor and influential founder of Christians United for Israel, explained the prophecy to TBN Networks in December 2022.

“God is getting ready to defend Israel in such a supernatural way it’s going to take the breath out of the lungs of the dictators on planet Earth but we are living on the cusp of the greatest most supernatural series of events the world has ever seen ready or not.”

Hagee said when Jewish people are present in Israel “the clock starts ticking” on the rapture.

“What will come soon [is] the antichrist and his seven year empire that will be destroyed in the battle of armageddon. Then Jesus Christ will set up his throne in the city of Jerusalem. He will establish a kingdom that will never end,” Hagee said.

Hagee, despite having a long history of antisemitism – he has suggested Jews brought persecution upon themselves by upsetting God and called Hitler a “half-breed Jew” – founded Christians United for Israel in 2006.

Among other things, the group lobbied for the US embassy in Israel to be moved from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem, which Donald Trump did in 2018, and is “committed to Israel’s strength, security and sovereignty”.

The support of evangelical Christians – in 2015 the Pew Research Center estimated there were about 62 million in the US – for Israel can be split into different groups, Hummel said.

While there are plenty of evangelicals who, like Hagee, adhere to the Israel-is-key-to-Jesus’-return theology, there are also those who believe in “blessings theology”, a less outlandish, more transactional approach to support for Israel.

The blessings theology is based on a literal reading of the book of Genesis, where God told Abraham – who Hummel described as “the patriarch of the Jewish people” – that he would “bless those who bless you” and “curse those who curse you”.

“For the last couple of centuries this has been interpreted on individual terms. So you can accrue personal blessings by being good to the Jewish people, or by giving money, or touring Israel or things like that,” Hummel said.

That also works on a national level, he said.

“And so the crude way of doing this is a pastor will say something like: ‘Look at the Roman Empire and how they persecuted the Jews and Rome fell. Look at the British Empire and how the British didn’t treat the Jews well, and how they fell. Look at the Nazis and how they persecuted the Jews, and they fell.

“And we, the Americans, don’t want to be the next Empire or the next great power to fall because we didn’t sufficiently bless the Jewish people.’”

There are also those whose support is “more broadly American”, Hummel said: “There’s a deep cultural affinity that’s been built over decades and decades between the US and Israel all across the board.”

Evangelicals make up an influential part of the Republican party base, and have a strong number in Congress. More than 100 members of the current Congress can be broadly identified as evangelical, and that was on display in recent days.

Lee Fang, a journalist, recently asked congressmen and women whether their religion was important to their support for Israel, for the documentary “Praying for Armageddon”.

“This entire matter is based upon the faith of our maker, our creator, but it’s also faith of a chosen people,” Pete Sessions, a Republican congressman from Texas and a Methodist, said.

Fang asked Tim Burchett, a Republican congressman from Tennessee, about evangelical support.

“They’re following the scripture, and what the scripture says about Israel: ‘Those who bless Israel will be blessed,’ they take it literal, and I’m one of those people,” Burchett said.

In terms of the influence evangelicals might wield as the Israel-Hamas conflict continues, Hummel said there had been a “mixed record” on evangelicals’ political sway.

Still, Trump has specifically said he moved the US embassy to Jerusalem “for the evangelicals”, while Hagee served as an adviser to the twice-impeached president.

In the 2020 election, evangelical or born-again Christians made up 28% of the overall electorate, CNN reported, and three-quarters voted for Trump. Given that support for the Republican party, under GOP leadership evangelicals would have plenty of influence.

“When there’s a Republican president they have a seat at the table it doesn’t mean the president’s going to do exactly what they want, but they’re the ones that the president’s listening to more than other interested parties on Israel,” Hummel said.

With a presidential election looming, and with few signs that the Israeli conflict will ebb away any time soon, evangelicals could find themselves in a position of significant power in the near future.

The above article ends here.



As someone else pointed out to me, consider also that Jesus was a Jew, the disciples were Jews, and as God told Abraham in Genesis 12, “He who blesses you, I will bless and he who curses you I will curse.” This is now understood by many Evangelicals to apply to Jews in general and Israel as nation. So many Christians believe that they should treat all Jews well or face God’s curse.

According to the following the International Christian embassy lists ten reasons to support Israel.

https://www.icej.org/understand-israel/biblical-teachings/ten-reasons-to-support-israel/

It seems to me the logic is more on the line if you embrace their ideological beliefs, you can get to heaven one day when you die.

To me death and killing is not the answer but it’s the religion of evil, corrupt governments.

[arwen]

Oooooh, I was going to stay away from this one......but I can't.

Since October this year (2023), my question has been similar - "WHY do Christians, without question, support Israel?"

It led me down a very deep rabbit hole.

In summary without references (in a hurry) - I found out the Old Testament references to Israel were to a people, not a country. Israel did not exist as a country. It was named Israel by those who carved it into Palestine/Judea in 1948.

So why do so many Christians not know this? I know many Christians, otherwise good and decent people, and it seems their blind loyalty to Israel is because of the references to Israel in the Old Testament, and the reference to them as "Gods chosen people".

Apologies, this is quite a sloppy post, should be better referenced.

One of the factors influencing this I found, was the Scofield Bible in America: The Scofield Bible—The Book That Made Zionists of America’s Evangelical Christians (https://www.wrmea.org/2015-october/the-scofield-bible-the-book-that-made-zionists-of-americas-evangelical-christians.html)

There is a ton of information on all this. And yes, a RADICAL difference between the "God" of the Old Testament who is vengeful, jealous, spiteful, bloodthirsty and really really does not fit the concept of a creator of Love. Whereas Jesus in the New Testament taught Love, forgiveness, compassion.

My thought was - if "God" really was such a horrible entity, and he/it created us, then where does Love come from? Because Love is definitely NOT part of that angry "God". And Love exists everywhere, so it must have come from somewhere else other than that "God".

I do not consider myself a Christian, but I have strong resonance with the early Gnostics and the Cathars (NOT the Knights Templar). So I do not feel qualified to answer Bill's question but I can say that if I was a Christian, I would not be able to support Israel's military action because it is the polar opposite of what Jesus represented.

Before Jesus, there was no Christianity. There was that Old Testament/Torah/Talmud time. Christianity was allegedly founded AFTER Jesus. So if one is a Christian, one would defer to the gospel of Jesus, rather than what is in the Old Testament. As I see it. And thus could not support this bloodshed, massacre, genocide.

And the other data source that helped me understand better the eschatology of all this, as I am very obviously NOT a bible scholar, was this video: (1 hour)

v3n5s5m

[Sue (Ayt)]

A way to view these things may be simple - Righteous anger seeks restoration, but unrighteous anger seeks destruction.

It is only natural to feel anger at your tormentors, but large-scale projections seem to inevitably lead to massive destruction.

I do believe that more folks are availing their personal discernment and distinguishing the difference now, but that trend must terrify the propagandist/infiltrators/manipulators who actively seek power through destruction, so they have upped their antics. But the realization that most all of our organizations have been infiltrated is slowly dawning on people. (including religious organizations.)

[Eric J (Viking)]

Absolutely not….

I was raised a Roman catholic (whatever that’s means) and have supported the Christ faith. I have learned more about religious beliefs within the Phoenix Journels than anywhere. I cannot find sufficient words that would describe my feelings towards the establishment running the Israel show. Religions create devide amongst us humans. It’s at this junction I am ashamed to be part of the human race. They must bow their heads with complete disgust with what has been going on here. (Israel)

Eric J

[Ernie Nemeth]

I don't bother with semantics. Now I see why there has been this divide amongst the members. The horror of the atrocities has inflamed the entire world. We are no different.

I believe we are in great danger right now of loosing our way of life. Christianity guided the rise of the west. Yet now we see pro-Hamas and pro-Palestinian protests in our streets.

If we allow and condone these protests on our streets it will not be long before the militants resort to the same tactics that Hamas uses. "Convert or we burn down your cities while hiding behind your own brainwashed mobs of misguided but concerned citizens". Hamas and the Islamic world now know, if they didn't already, that the west can be played. They can be bluffed into capitulation by dirty tactics that have no honor.

All wars have atrocities attached to them. The Hamas aggression is no different. In fact, if it is different it is because they have trained almost the entire nation as terrorists.

History holds no precedent and cannot be used to argue for anything at all. The land is owned by those that are there today. This is true around the world. No city, state, or nation can claim their hands free of the blood of innocents. History is written by the victor. Just as destructive acts destroy, constructive acts also destroy, all the while the opposite is equally true. The destructive/constructive divide can only be subjective.

If there is to be peace, there must be agreement. Otherwise the peace is just a pause in hostilities.

I don't support or condone Israeli military action.
I do support the notion that a country has the right to defend itself from aggression, especially if to remain neutral might result in annihilation. That last can be applied to either side.

What options are there? War or Peace. Death or Life.

That's why I advocate for World Peace. I have even created a thread with that exact title.

I don't believe in death.
I do believe we live larger lives than we currently understand; I don't think I understand this life at all...

[Isserley]

I received a well-written and most intelligent message..

I can only say that at first glance this thread title doesn't seem intelligent at all. So I can only imagine what this guy wrote to support this logic.

Should Quakers, Hinduists, Protestants, atheists, ... support it?

[Bill Ryan]

I received a well-written and most intelligent message..

I can only say that at first glance this thread title doesn't seem intelligent at all. So I can only imagine what this guy wrote to support this logic.Something can be well-written, and intelligently presented, and still lack moral or ethical awareness. We see this from state media and politicians all the time.

Intelligent people can justify any view or belief that they have. (And the more intelligent they are, the harder it often is for them to challenge their own worldviews. We have an Avalon thread (https://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?114787-Why-humans-are-unintelligent-it-s-all-about-belief) all about this.)

~~~

What I wrote above is tough, and I apologize should that be necessary. But I've just been listening to Max Blumenthal telling Judge Napolitano (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QarUuZ_YKY4) about some of the events in Gaza which are well-documented now but almost completely unreported in the western media. Some were unknown to me.

At one point I had to stop the video. I just stared out of the window for a while before I could continue.

What the Israelis are doing is evil. Period. No moral person can support it.

I read a comment (https://www.moonofalabama.org/2023/12/palestine-open-thread-2023-312.html?cid=6a00d8341c640e53ef02c8d3a6922c200d#comment-6a00d8341c640e53ef02c8d3a6922c200d) on The Moon of Alabama observing that in the Biblical Old Testament, YWVH (Jehovah) was responsible for several genocides.

Meanwhile, Satan was responsible for none. Go think about it.

:focus:

[pabranno]

How extraordinary is this community when such things can be discussed and shared intelligently and so heartfelt!
I appreciate all those who research, reason and search hearts to find method in the madness.
I’m grateful for the incredible posts here, and feel a kinship with you all in our shared pain and anger for this world we find ourselves.

I posted earlier an awkward post in which I expressed myself poorly.

For the record, and to be much clearer, I do not view these events through a geopolitical lens. Neither Israel or Hamas. I in no way support war for either.

I view this heartbreaking tragedy as a spatial, temporal expression of something higher going on. I use the word spiritual but can just as easily use higher dimension. Or any other term. Hence, my earlier use of the word ordained. Unavoidable. By who or what or why I do not understand. But Ive seen a slow train coming.

Also for the record, I am a Christian. I am a thinking, reasoning Christian with a probing mind and heart. We all must use care when painting people of certain beliefs with a wide brush.

I’ve had intense struggles with much of what many posted here. I’m no idiot. I do study. I do angst.
I am particularly accomplished at angst😉

Thank you all for this place where I can share at such a level, and more importantly for the reasonings you present which sharpen me ‘as iron sharpens iron’

Sincerely,
Pamela

[shaberon]

Marcion (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marcion_of_Sinope) (85—160 AD) was the first scholar to point out that the angry, vengeful, ruthless, punishing God of the Old Testament (Jehovah) and the loving God of the New Testament seemed to be two entirely different beings — with entirely different teachings and value systems.



That was Paul.

Paul never actually heard of Jesus.


After Marcion, yes, there was some kind of shuffle, including a faction that had to bring in a Torah-dependent version.


A century or so later, it is hard to blame anyone for not knowing the real history. They were given a bunch of stories and ideas and came up with something.


This is Christianity:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d3/Cross_of_the_Russian_Orthodox_Church_01.svg/135px-Cross_of_the_Russian_Orthodox_Church_01.svg.png


which I am not sure anyone knows anything about it.


The Byzantine Empire was a sort of non-denominational Heaven on Earth. They didn't take it so literally as "I am the Messiah" but more like "I am doing the best job I can". No forced conversions and no refusal of aid towards Jews, pagans, or whoever.

Christianity would therefor follow Catherine the Great's plan to restore Constantinople to Greece. But that got deleted.

It cannot support Israel at all, since the country is founded on crime.

Yes, the Yhwh is the Demiurge, is a new aberration flung in the face of El, by Elijah particularly, followed by the assassination of the Israeli king and new subservient dynasty. Note the new king shown as giving tribute to Shalmaneser III on the Black Obelisk of Assyria. It appears he surrendered without a fight. Shalmaneser III led about thirty conquests and destroyed all resistance. Shortly thereafter, Assyria destroyed Israel as well. Most of the Torah was created long after this.


Both "Testaments" are hatchet jobs.

[shaberon]

I’ve been asking the question myself, why Christians not Catholics support Israel.


Roman Catholicism and Orthodoxy are both Nicene, which means they share the view that Jews are basically damned for rejecting the Savior.

Zionism comes from the ca. 1580s and propagates through the English Bible. This means any English Bible, to which the Scofield Concordance is like a finishing touch. Actually, it is the very conflicts in Ukraine and Israel that have compelled me to add piles of details to this basic truth.

What is being called a "Christian religion" was invented by a few people in the 1600s using hardcore Jewish apologetics.

Nothing about Zionism is Jewish in origin.

It's English and is part and parcel of Germany and Russia being the enemies "Gog and Magog", which is not actually even a pair of names. There may have been a Gog "of/from" Magog, and, if so, it referred to the near future and the area immediately north of Galilee.

Does anyone honestly believe that before electricity, people would sit around with a white knuckle grip over a theology that was supposed to occur in thousands of years to people they had never heard of???

You might be interested in a "Messiah" in your personal future, or, perhaps for your children, but I can't imagine anyone naive enough to be suckered by something much more distant.

For clarity, one could say the general in Niger is a Tyrant (came to power by illegitimate means) and a Messiah (got rid of the French).

I will always protect the small and weak from some larger aggressive force. That's not usually "taking sides", but to say that the residents of Gaza, Donbass, etc., should not be getting obliterated by some US-backed military. I can only say these things, since I am not in a position to shoot IOF. Can't get a ride. I'm sure "we" would bail out Gaza in a matter of hours if "we" could get there.

The opposite of the thread's proposition is more enticing:


Why should Jews oppose Zion?


Plenty of them believe that g-d is love and that people like Netanyahu are wrong. Except this must be a very small number of people, outvoiced by what I am sure must be 30-50 million ardent Zionists who are not that far from me.

[Bruce G Charlton]

I rather jumped in to answer this question "no" - which I think is correct; but without some context it isn't terribly informative.

For "no" to have much meaning, we would need to know what kind of situation there might be where it could be said that a Christian should positively-support a particular side in a conflict.

I would say that this situation (i.e. where a Christian ought to support one side) arises when we judge that one of the sides is primarily motivated by Christian ideals.

Motivations are not something that can be read-off from "objective facts" (as if such things existed independently of the the fundamental assumptions that enable their interpretation) - but motivations must be inferred. This sounds rather mushy and subjective; yet everything hinges upon them - and being a Christian has (I would suggest) the inbuilt assumption that there really are motivations, and we really can infer them (with help and guidance from the Holy Ghost) in those situation where doing so is spiritually significant to us personally.

Luckily for this explanation, there is a clear example of a situation in which I believe a Christian should support one of the sides; and that is the ongoing war between Russia and NATO that is being-fought mostly in Ukraine. Here we have one side that I believe (i.e. I infer) is primarily fighting for and from Christian motivations; and (to make this choice easier!) the other side is primarily motivated by anti-Christian ideals.

It can be seen that this matter is not susceptible of anything resembling "proof" - but for anyone who really give the matter spiritual attention (and who is not, for instance, self-blinded by sins such as fear or resentment) I would say that the "Ukr" War is as clear as example as is ever likely of a war where Christians ought to take one of the sides; and the only valid* reason why this may not happen is that the information and events are (for most Christians) geographically remote, and only indirectly known.

*I'm assuming, here, that the fact Christians find themselves living on the wrong side of the war, is not a valid reason for failing to support the right side - even though, in practice, such support will not be practical but in the heart! After all; in the heart is what matters, ultimately - since we can be coerced and compelled physically; but not in the depth of our divine selves.

[Bill Ryan]

I rather jumped in to answer this question "no" - which I think is correct; but without some context it isn't terribly informative.

For "no" to have much meaning, we would need to know what kind of situation there might be where it could be said that a Christian should positively-support a particular side in a conflict.

I would say that this situation (i.e. where a Christian ought to support one side) arises when we judge that one of the sides is primarily motivated by Christian ideals.

Motivations are not something that can be read-off from "objective facts" (as if such things existed independently of the the fundamental assumptions that enable their interpretation) - but motivations must be inferred. This sounds rather mushy and subjective; yet everything hinges upon them - and being a Christian has (I would suggest) the inbuilt assumption that there really are motivations, and we really can infer them (with help and guidance from the Holy Ghost) in those situation where doing so is spiritually significant to us personally.

Luckily for this explanation, there is a clear example of a situation in which I believe a Christian should support one of the sides; and that is the ongoing war between Russia and NATO that is being-fought mostly in Ukraine. Here we have one side that I believe (i.e. I infer) is primarily fighting for and from Christian motivations; and (to make this choice easier!) the other side is primarily motivated by anti-Christian ideals.

It can be seen that this matter is not susceptible of anything resembling "proof" - but for anyone who really give the matter spiritual attention (and who is not, for instance, self-blinded by sins such as fear or resentment) I would say that the "Ukr" War is as clear as example as is ever likely of a war where Christians ought to take one of the sides; and the only valid reason why this may not happen is that the information and events are (for most Christians) geographically remote, and only indirectly known.Bruce, that's perfectly put. :highfive: I entirely agree.

What you didn't say was whether Israel's campaign was also motivated by Christian values. It seems to me self-evident that it's not — but I'm certain this is your view as well.

[Rizotto]

Yes, I've tried to discuss this issue with some christians who are totally set on supporting Isreal no matter what. They're absolutely convinced that the Bible is the word of God, not to be questioned. They get quite upset at the mention that biblical scholars themselves have on-going debates about translations, interpretations and which chapters should or should not be included in the 'bible', in other words the authenticity of much of the bible is in question. I've seen what these christians do in their bible study groups, or on their own bible studies. Reading these verses sends them into a state of hypnosis and they loose their sense of critical thinking.

Many of these christians have a deep islamophobia. Of course that doesn't come from the bible. From what I can gather, this deep-seated islamophobia is a rather recent phenomenon, less than a hundred year old, and my guess is that it has been instigated by the same old geopolitical bullies that use the 'divide and conquer' tactics to gain control over the world biggest oil reserves, which happen to be in muslim countries for the most part.

There is one aspect of the current Israeli genocide of Palestinians that I don't hear discussed by these christians. And that is the fact that many Palestinians are christians, some are practicing judaism, and their churches and synagogues have been bombed by Isrealis, as much as the mosques. And that many Palestinians are likely descendants of the Jews that remained on the land after the diaspora of the Jews ruling elite in the year 70.

None of this makes sense. I'm bewildered, horrified, and deeply saddened that anyone would try to justify this slaughter.

[Bruce G Charlton]

Thanks Bill.

"What you didn't say was whether Israel's campaign was also motivated by Christian values. It seems to me self-evident that it's not — but I'm certain this is your view as well."

Yes, it did seem self-evident! more exactly, my understanding is that Israel's motivations are some combination of mainstream Western secular globalist totalitarianism (Israel has so far always been explicitly a secular state, especially in its early decades: i.e. based on a race not a religion); with the not-Christian ideals of Judaism (especially the ultra-Orthodox); plus that type of secular-left race-based nationalism called Zionism. Whatever the combination that is most dominant at present - these are none of them core Christian values; and many are explicitly anti-Christian.

But that does not mean that Christians (qua Christians) ought to support the geopolitical aims of the Palestinians either!

In a sense this dispute is also about the transition from the US-unipolar world order to the multipolar world order. But the Christian preference for multipolarity is - I think - mainly because it includes Russia as a sovereign Christian state, and that a multipolar world is more likely to have at least some space and tolerance for the practice of Christianity; whereas the globalist totalitarian mind-control project has demonstrated clearly that it actively intends to eradicate all possibility of Christian thinking, as well as practice.

[Sérénité]

I come from Roman Catholic, C of E, Protestant and Jewish heritage. Yet align with none of them. The concept of religion is lost on me for the very reason that it divides and segregates people from every “faith” and makes us forgot the most important thing in the world…we are all one and should love each other unconditionally.

I have heard numerous accounts of how religion has torn my own family apart going back, not only recently but back to the War of the Roses and the troubles it has caused. None of it makes any sense to me. Other than these systems where out into place to do exactly as they are still today, in Isreal and Palestine.

Anyone supporting any military action, more so based on their allegiance to a different ‘god’ hurts my brain as much as my heart. Until the world stops allowing dogmatic controls and power hungry megalomaniacs to pit us against each other, we will never know true peace and love.

[ExomatrixTV]

Should True Followers of Jesus and all what He really stands for support any form of Genocide? ... "No Matter What?"

(being sarcastic and rhetorical here).

cheers,
John 🦜🦋🌳

[Kryztian]

For me, the most important passage in the Bible that explains what it means to be a Christian is this:


A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another. By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another. —John 13:33–35

These words were spoken by Jesus at the Last Supper, the evening before he was crucified. This New Commandment is more important and central to Christian faith than the ten commandments given to Moses.

To put these words into action, I think you can translate this phrase into even more concise language and ask "What would Jesus do". In the case of Israel military action, I would ask "Would Jesus arrive in another land and attempt to take the land from the peoples who lived there for thousands of years? Would Jesus have imported guns and weapons and used them on these people and murdered some of them them and terrorized all of them so that they motivated to leave? Would Jesus have created a legal system that would deprive these people of their rights, but give these rights to other people?" and so on.

I think if you read the Gospels and understand who Jesus is, you know the answers to these questions.

When I hear of "Christians" who support the cruel and violent military actions against the Palestinians, I have to question how they understand the Bible. They are interpreting some obscure passages in the Bible and applying some very convoluted logic to them to come up with some very strange ideas that are motivating some of the most horrific and cruel violence in the world.

Christianity isn't that complex, it really boils down to some very simple sentences like "Do good" and "Be kind" and "Love one another".

[Ernie Nemeth]

These bodies die. All bodies die.

Since death is an illusion, bodies are an illusion.

The argument at this level is an argument about the color and style of the non-existent Emperor's cloths.

[mojo]

Hi all, I would say that most people would agree to the right to defend themselves and the Israeli's would be no different. Remember they were the ones that were attacked by terrorists & the Hamas in Gaza, but having said that, wars are never good. The OP question asks if Christians should support Israeli military action but I think what is currently happening is different than going out and starting a war. The Israeli military took that action in defense of an attack. Would you not defend your home from an intruder? The Christian Bible in the Book of Psalms talks about praying for the peace of Jerusalem. That is what is important as a Christian. The Bible mentions and History supports that there will always be wars & rumors of wars as a result of the corrupt World systems, and not one Country is free from corruption.

[Bill Ryan]

Hi all, I would say that most people would agree to the right to defend themselves and the Israeli's would be no different. Remember they were the ones that were attacked by terrorists & the Hamas in Gaza, but having said that, wars are never good. The OP question asks if Christians should support Israeli military action but I think what is currently happening is different than going out and starting a war. The Israeli military took that action in defense of an attack. Would you not defend your home from an intruder? The Christian Bible in the Book of Psalms talks about praying for the peace of Jerusalem. That is what is important as a Christian. The Bible mentions and History supports that there will always be wars & rumors of wars as a result of the corrupt World systems, and not one Country is free from corruption.Dear mojo, many thanks indeed, but you may find it useful to spend a little time catching up on the Israel vs Hamas thread, (https://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?122055-Israel-vs-Hamas-a-New-Middle-East-War) which you've not visited since 14 October.

There's a lot there, extremely well documented now, almost all of which directly counters your view.

:flower:

[shaberon]

Yes, I've tried to discuss this issue with some christians who are totally set on supporting Isreal no matter what. They're absolutely convinced that the Bible is the word of God, not to be questioned. They get quite upset at the mention that biblical scholars themselves have on-going debates about translations, interpretations and which chapters should or should not be included in the 'bible', in other words the authenticity of much of the bible is in question. I've seen what these christians do in their bible study groups, or on their own bible studies. Reading these verses sends them into a state of hypnosis and they loose their sense of critical thinking.



Suggest replacing "christians" with "people".

By definition, those are *not* possibly Christians.

They are followers of some 1600s English ideology.

I've personally grown up knee-deep with these, thick as thieves, which they basically are. They have ripped off some names, copied a few phrases, and have no clue other than this really perverse spell they are casting. I might call it "black magic" or "brain death", but it definitely is not the Church of Jerusalem.

If one cannot come up with a better thesis than "Be kind, love one another", they already have that in Judaism. In fact, they have it almost everywhere.

Christianity requires belief in reports that came in over a hundred years late about a dead man walking.

I, personally, cannot accept that, so, I am disqualified.


I can, to an extent, sympathize with Protestantism for temporarily being the only means to talk around the Pope, who is not Christian either. After the brief intro of cracking open free speech, they should have become more honest. Again, nothing like that could even happen in an Orthodox country, because there isn't any suppression.

We are debating false ideas that have commanded what we know of history--and this has never taken place anywhere else because these ideas are irrelevant.

It should be impossible to even have this discussion.

The easiest thing to do is to take away the toy, Israel, so there is nothing left to provide a whiff of the ideas.

These "people" would probably then sit around for another three thousand years expecting it to happen again.

Dissolving the mentality as quoted above would be what it means to "de-Nazify the United States".

They believe that "freedom" was fought for exactly so they could cook up this sinister stew. Not really...the colonies were settled by many who wanted to flee "Wars of the Roses" type conflicts that had plagued England and...as soon as you leave, it is gone. No point to it. The point was about tax authority. That is what guns are for.

When I say this stuff here, it may slowly trickle in to others' awareness, but I can't actually say it to my neighbor. Not because I have any personal inhibitions about doing so, but you are facing options of being ignored/rejected, or else starting a feud that will never settle. It does seem literally impossible to carry out any normal intellectual process with those bricks.


The comparison I would raise for their or anyone else's possible osmosis is Greek Independence.

In the 1820s, there was a wealthy Greek diaspora in America, most European countries, and some other places.

Europeans and Americans looked and saw what they thought were White Christians subjugated by Turkish Muslims.

Everything was publicized, heaps of money came pouring in, it was a sentimental, romantic wave that essentially swept over the globe for many years.

Does that sound like Zionism?

No, not even slightly.

It was mostly an aspect of racial supremacy, without realizing the Greeks really are Christians and Constantinople was part of it, and in the end, they recovered 80% of their country and were given a Bavarian Government. Now it sounds a bit Zionist because we are no longer talking about the public--that was the work of the "Powers", which were in turn implored to promote Zion in just the same way, as if Palestine belonged to the Zionists in the same way that Greece belonged to Greeks.

This whole process of modern map-making started off by failing Christianity.

Or, if we look at the Ottoman Empire as being undesirable, then whether the "Powers" have "re-birthed" its former territories in an adequate way, could be called an "ongoing failure".

You can "give" Palestine to the Jews, but not Constantinople to the Christians. Incidentally slicing "Kurdistan" into at least three countries, and, getting some of them as Zionist sidekicks in their own way.

Then, the Power, Austria, one of the strongest Catholic centers for centuries, is pulverized, and now, at least in an ideological way, one of the biggest Zionists there is. Those were the guys that stopped the Ottomans from swarming the rest of Catholic or whatever kind of Europe. Consider the gratitude and favor returned.

[s7e6e]

Why would anyone support war criminals? What is it with this obsession over teams? Sure, I'm inclined to root for the Palestinians on this one, until I hear them chanting "rape their daughters".

Regardless, what does Christianity have to do with Israel?!?

[Bill Ryan]

Sure, I'm inclined to root for the Palestinians on this one, until I hear them chanting "rape their daughters".
An important small correction. :flower: That wasn't the Palestinians themselves. It was an extract from a pro-Palestinian rally in London, over 2 years ago (https://apnews.com/article/fact-check-israel-gaza-hamas-london-antisemitic-197969180065), long before the current escalated conflict.

(https://apnews.com/article/fact-check-israel-gaza-hamas-london-antisemitic-197969180065):focus:

[Bill Ryan]

Houman (https://projectavalon.net/forum4/member.php?322-Houman) has just posted this (https://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?40941-Horus-Ra-as-the-Archontic-Alien-Parasite-A-follow-up-interview-with-Maarit&p=1592389&viewfull=1#post1592389) on his own thread, and I immediately felt that it also had its place here. The specially important part, in an important quote, I've emphasized in red.

:flower:



In "mourning and honor" of Palestinians killed in Gaza, the city of Bethlehem in the occupied West Bank, the birthplace of Jesus Christ, has announced the cancellation of traditional Christmas festivities. In Bethlehem, we're joined by the president of Dar al-Kalima University, Reverend Mitri Raheb. Reverend Raheb relates the story of Jesus, a refugee whose mother had no place to safely give birth, to the plight of displaced Gazans facing a dearth of medical care. "The Christmas story actually is a Palestinian story, par excellence," he tells us, yet "we don't hear the Christian community actually doing much about the atrocity happening in Gaza today." As the world turns its back on the ongoing genocide, Rehab says he fears this could be "the end of the Christian presence in Gaza."
NkRlMV2JVVs

[xeon]

Real Christians (and this is a small breed) who are awake at the same time, would recognize we are most definitely in the End Times. And the Ukraine war and this Israel-Hamas war is also closely related.

In the End Times, it is written the Antichrist will come. The AC will be a "Man of Peace" and deceive the whole world with his peaceful solutions. Why will the AC deceive many? Because what the AC will say, is impossible to argue against. What is wrong about "Peace" anyway? :highfive:

I'm guessing rather like the AI religion that the Illuminati plan on unveiling very shortly, which will "correct what's wrong with all the other religions" (as per Yuval Noah Harari, WEF advisor).

Note that Xi Jinping, Putin and Iran (maybe other countries) have been specifically calling for a New World Order, and Xi and Putin in particular, have called for AI Governance over Mankind. So Communist China is VERY heavily vested in AI development, "green technologies" like EVs (in fact they are the main ones pushing for EVs globally), and biotechnology....and they are the epicenter of the Covid19 Plandemic outbreak..... They just developed an inhalable Covid vaccine. Cool. :p

Anyone having their red flags up?

Guess what? The whole world is now HATING on the USA, and Israel, and Ukraine.....(haters include many of their own citizens) :worried:

Before anyone thinks that I am a pro Zionist supporter, I would add that Jesus cursed the religious leaders/authorities of the Jews and called them children of Satan. But note that Jesus always emphasized that he came to fulfill their Jewish scriptures and was the son of their God. Feeling conflicted? :chuckle:

And today we know of the Ashkenazi Jews (who call themselves Jews but are not), and let's say we all agree people from this group make up what we call the Illuminati or the Freemasons....

Does anyone suspect this group is behind the Israel-Hamas war and directing the outcomes of the Global Group Think?

What have we been seeing in recent times? Millions of people marching against the entire nation of Israel (not against those who are behind it) and supporting the Palestinians (who are mostly Muslim).

Even the Liberals and LGBT groups, and Feminists, and....China and Russia also backing them up? Why would this small conflict trigger millions (billions) of people? Why doesn't anyone march in such numbers against the Globalists and the Vaccine bioweapons? Even as people ARE suddenly dropping dead everywhere and all around us?

Doesn't anyone find all this extremely suspicious? :silent:

[mojo]

Xeon the post above was well thought out & informative. There does seem to be a trend towards the so called Tribulation IMO, with all the anger/accusations directed towards the countries you mentioned above and for the so called man of peace, "The Antichrist," to come on the stage there needs to be unrest/conflict in Israel for the Jews to accept his peace accord for Israel. After reading some of the posts in the Hamas thread, I agree with many of the POVs that members bring up. War is terrible with innocent lives lost on both sides. My initial view of the OP question is still answering what the Bible says Christians should be focused on, which in Psalms says, "Pray for the peace of Jerusalem."

[Bill Ryan]

My initial view of the OP question is still answering what the Bible says Christians should be focused on, which in Psalms says, "Pray for the peace of Jerusalem."It seems impossible to disagree with that sentiment. :flower:

However, many in the west are unaware that East Jerusalem is considered by Palestine to be their capital. But of course, Israel is determined (I nearly wrote 'hell-bent') to seize that entirely for themselves.

[s7e6e]

Sure, I'm inclined to root for the Palestinians on this one, until I hear them chanting "rape their daughters".
An important small correction. :flower: That wasn't the Palestinians themselves. It was an extract from a pro-Palestinian rally in London, over 2 years ago (https://apnews.com/article/fact-check-israel-gaza-hamas-london-antisemitic-197969180065), long before the current escalated conflict.
(https://apnews.com/article/fact-check-israel-gaza-hamas-london-antisemitic-197969180065):focus:

This was shouted 2 weeks ago in Australia, during a "peaceful" rally Bill. But I tend to agree with xeon. We are being shown the distraction hand during the magic trick.

[arwen]

Doesn't anyone find all this extremely suspicious? :silent:

Yes. Not going to derail this thread but I too am VERY cautious about falling into the one side=all good - other side=all bad trap. I too sense a much bigger picture behind all this, which does not lessen the horror of what is taking place - but what will this wholesale genocide be used for, to justify, in the future?

[mojo]

Wanted to share a different perspective from Amir Tsarfati a Jewish believer in Jesus as he unpacks the spiritual side of October 7 events and the anti-Christ spirit behind it all.

sxxyfnSskaE

[Frankie Pancakes]

My short answer is nope.

[Bill Ryan]

Wanted to share a different perspective from Amir Tsarfati a Jewish believer in Jesus as he unpacks the spiritual side of October 7 events and the anti-Christ spirit behind it all.

sxxyfnSskaEMany thanks for this. :flower:

He starts talking about October 7 after 6:50, when he's being interviewed on stage in front of an audience just a short while ago.

The following I transcribed myself. I didn't miss or change a word.

I'll start with the opening question. Amir is asked:
... what Israel is up against, and why they are absolutely, completely, committed now to the destruction of Hamas. Why is it so important that Hamas be stopped?
Amir answers:
So, as you know, Israel is back in the land since the late 1800s, and the State of Israel was born as Isaiah 66 predicted. Within a matter of hours, we had to decide whether to declare statehood or not, when the Brits told us that they're leaving. "Can a nation be born at once?" Isaiah asked. And of course, it was.

But from the very beginning. we knew that we have an issue with the enemy — the enemy that hates God, and cannot fight God, and therefore it comes against the People of God.~~~

At that point I stopped listening. This man is symptomatic of the entire problem.

[Bill Ryan]

I'm copying this new post (https://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?114491-WW3-Ukraine-US-vs.-Donbass-Russia&p=1592458&viewfull=1#post1592458) from the Ukraine vs Russia thread. It actually brought a tear to my eye. :flower:

This is what a true Christian might do. Or maybe, a believer in any God that was not vengeful. Amir Tsarfati could learn something from this.

In the very short video below (which I do wish was longer), a Russian soldier starts to sing a line from a Russian song called Katyusha.

From the Wiki page (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katyusha_(song)) about the song:
The song is about a Russian woman called Katyusha. Standing on a steep riverbank, she sings a song to her beloved, a soldier serving far away. The theme of the song is that the soldier will protect the Motherland and its people while his grateful girl will keep and protect their love.
Then, the Ukrainian "enemy", 100 meters away, sings back, like an echo.

All these people are human. And these two particular groups of soldiers, instructed to kill one another by their commanders, are very probably good people too. We must never forget.

:heart:

https://x.com/SgforgoodStella/status/1738605595521843638

1738605595521843638

[Hym]

It is good that the normal celebration of Jesus's birth is finally being recognized by the born again Christian community as having been in June, not around the winter soulstice, with the Star of Bethlehem, the planet Jupiter and another planet being brightly in alignment 6 months later guiding the astrologically and astronomically astute Wise Men to celebrate the new baby toddler's birth. Either way it is the reason for the season, that so few actually live, especially now that in the land of his birth, where one of many worldwide genocides is being committed, open for all to see how so many christians are not christian at all, so many 'christians' backing the evil doings of a long lived, historically godless people of arrogance who deem their worship of self-importance the supreme law of force in the world.

The true sign, the undeniable marker of a heartless, self-serving group or religion is their practice of revenge. The evil, financed by the victims own government, that was laid upon the lives of those killed on Oct.7, can only be answered by facing that evil and proving that the 75 years of occupation, in the words of the oppressors themselves, were the works of the darkness itself.....an introspection not available to the godless governments who claim innocence, and also unavailable to many "born agains" because of the insecurities of those christians who have paid so dearly for admiring the financial and coercive skills of the assassin's mafioso, those called mossad, shin bet, see-eye-aye, my5/my6 and all.

The new nazis are the same old ones, easily recognizable by their actions. They are entirely unlike my awesome and beautiful Jewish friends, those who Love and are Loved by Me and many others. Those NWY-nazis with yamakas, and the bobby pins they use to hold the cover over their crown chakras from receiving any unexpected or unwanted consciousness from above, are living in the same world, the same space of other perpetrators from times past, creating the darkness from their very own secular and mundane voodong. It is good to see Ross Porter and Mike Adams stand up in the midst of that truly secular and spiritual hypocrisy, exposing the treasonous lie that the preplanned sacrifice of their own people justifies an eye for a thousand eyes.

The most stark reality now is that the whole of christianity is faced with the truth of their blind support of an ancient dark, pseudo-pagan, golden idolatry that was not dealt with, using the severity it needed to remove it some 2,000 years ago. Jesus tried with turning over the money-changers tables, then a second time by whipping them for their love of money and control, selling out to the romans, the same romans who now occupy the vatican, the financiers and the intra-governmental killers still alive in this world. Now it is not Herod's hencemen who hunt down the Heart Centered ones, the real Christians. It is a worldwide governance taking on one guise, then another, to create division and the endless, inhumane activities that create pain, and poverty amongst a species that is by all definitions borne of one kind and entirely capable to serve all the billions alive in this world, with ease....without malice, with love.

What would one expect in such a world where so many forget that the power of Love and the best of their understanding of a supreme 'God' lives within their own responsible actions, wholly taking account for their duties to serve others. That makes just as much sense as a belief that a man cannot sire a beautiful, serviceful, self-sacrificing soul by pretending that a woman was impregnated by a supreme soul, a God, and not her husband, her own dedicated spouse.

If that is the case then why didn't they just admit that Mary was impregnated by an alien, a nephalim, an "other". That fantasy, birthed on the ignorance and control of a very primitive society, also makes it impossible for a woman to birth her own amazing child, a child eventually able to serve others selflessly without question or complaint, without having a "god" choosing her to share her birth canal with his magical, godly insemination. Who, but every woman of conscience, could compare to Mary. I wonder why so few accept the stupidity and ignorance of those fairytales and then call them religion? I also do not at all know that this was the life, or the understanding, or the attitude of Mary and her family, so I do not lay any responsibility on the controlling tales of the institutions that followed their lives.

How it ends is predictable. Players playing with power that is not theirs to touch, nor theirs to claim. Destroy the perpetrators of the Oct.7 attack, which includes many of those in both governing bodies and their supporters in other countries. Yes. Yet going any further is genocide, and the only cleansing being done is cleaning the palate of the beast that devours all that is human. When will they live in the days of Peace, it is yet to be known but by the effort of those who know that self-sacrifice is Love Itself.

[Lunesoleil]

Call yourself a Christian and accept the massacre of Palestinians - a crime against humanity. What kind of Christian can accept that?
Politicians who accept this are all corrupt, the laws of nature are for all without exception.
Religion is guilty, is the excuse negotiable? :Avalon:

[Bill Ryan]

It's possible that some readers don't know about this:


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christmas_truce

On Christmas Day, 1914 (the first Christmas of the First World War), a one-day truce was agreed. The British and German officers and men all met personally to exchange sincere pleasantries and (astonishingly, but this is really happened) even enjoyed a football (soccer) game with one another.

Here's a most wonderfully and beautifully detailed high-resolution hand-drawn image:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/4/42/Illustrated_London_News_-_Christmas_Truce_1914.jpg

And here's a real photograph. :flower:

https://assets.zerohedge.com/s3fs-public/styles/inline_image_mobile/public/inline-images/thumbnail-4.jpg?itok=Zbuk8id8

But back then, 100 years ago — military officers were gentleman. And the tradition of honor and respect, even to one's enemy, was very deeply ingrained.

[Bill Ryan]

It's possible that some readers don't know about this:


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christmas_truce

On Christmas Day, 1914 (the first Christmas of the First World War), a one-day truce was agreed. The British and German officers and men all met personally to exchange sincere pleasantries and (astonishingly, but this is really happened) even enjoyed a football (soccer) game with one another.The French made a film all about this in 2005, called Joyeux Noël.

An extract from the Wiki page (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joyeux_No%C3%ABl) about the movie:
Joyeux Noël is a 2005 war drama film based on the Christmas truce of December 1914, depicted through the eyes of French, British, and German soldiers.

The film was nominated for Best Foreign Language Film at the 78th Academy Awards. It is a fictionalised account of an actual event that took place in December 1914, when Wilhelm, German Crown Prince, sent the lead singer of the Berlin Imperial Opera company on a solo visit to the front line. Singing by the tenor, Walter Kirchhoff, to the 120th and 124th Württemberg regiments led French soldiers in their trenches to stand up and applaud.
Here it is: :heart:


https://we.tl/t-gMbQx5NvI7
840 Mb mp4, with an English subtitle file
(downloadable for 7 days)

[Rawhide68]

I just happened to stumble over this clip, before reading this post, it's worth watching!

5I4X5ph-S8A

[Michael Moewes]

Dear Bill. I'm a Buddhist for almost 30 Years. no matter if you're christian or what kind of beleive system you prefer, no one should support any kind of war or "military action". As the US have the bad habit to play world police, americans think they shoud.
I know as a fact from a highranking Mossad officer back in the days, that Israel and especially the mossad have created Hamas to fight the PLO.
As it is their own homemade Problen they have to solve it totally by them self.
May all seinten beeings be enlightend and may peace take over.

[Ratszinger]

I support awareness.

I do not support any war or any killing of people.

I do not support being manipulated by that "Hidden Hand" all are keenly aware of here and that hand is in all of this.

Hamas was created by Israeli elite and now it is a tool they use.

The Catholic or more precisely, the Roman Catholic church is also branched off of Judiaism and was taken over by organized crime families like the Borgias early on in it's history.

Most of the wealth of the church was acquired via looting and plundering masses of people all over the world.

Every single weapon of mass destruction created here on Earth was created and made a reality by the Jewish people. Every one of them. Look at the famous names behind it for all the proof you need.

The media like the church and the war machine is a tool. They use it to control us and lie to us daily and we just do our own investigating to rise above that influence of the lock step verbatim scripts of the talking heads spouting their propaganda.

We must see all sides and above all else we should try to remain uninfluenced by the psyche damage that the TV between our ears can cause both to us and our young ones. It is the youths that are the real victims here.

The only way to defeat an overwhelming force is to be aware of it and simply deny it battle. It's the only way. Deny them the influence they want over you. Awareness of all sides is a must. We just have to realize it's all the hidden hand's script and the wars and the harm being done is due to the masses not denying them battle but letting them have their way with us and then manipulating us and our responses. We have to educate the asleep masses to this hidden hand influence so they too have some hope of rising above this evil at the top but first they must accept that it is there as a reality and influences us all daily, via their tools, like the religions, the TV and media and the mass of asleep at the wheel trying to influence us to be like them after it overtook them. Deny their influence and deny their battle at all cost. That doesn't mean stop paying attention.

I do not believe Yahweh was the same entity as the other names mentioned in holy writings. Yahweh was no god because the God I stood naked before in my shower that took away my inability to walk and my pain and apparently the stage 4 cancer I was diagnosed with was a God of love this was no God of war. There is no god of war! That is evil plain and simple.

Anyone believing for one second that God is about war is wrong from the get go. I simply believe in awareness and seeing all sides as clearly as possible. Keep your friends close, your enemies closer so to speak.

[ExomatrixTV]

There are maybe many Christians who are visiting our P.A. forum (https://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?122427-Should-Christians-support-Israeli-military-action) from all over the world who are not forum-members nor "in to conspiracies" nor in to "controversial thinking" and are surrounded by loved ones believing the status quo talking points narratives not questioning nor challenging (https://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?122055-Israel-vs-Hamas-a-New-Middle-East-War) it by default.


I wonder if they're starting to feel the need to challenge these mass hypnoses (https://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?119992-The-Psychology-of-Totalitarianism) tactics after reading our efforts here (https://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?122055-Israel-vs-Hamas-a-New-Middle-East-War) or not ... In my view, True Christians do not fear "what others might think" to do the right thing! ... and I personally met many of them in the last 33 years of me being very proactive in the alternative media scene, organizing big conferences, giving 80+ lectures, being co-founder of 2 magazines.
When I meet these True Christians personally face to face, I really genuinely appreciate their efforts to stand out to be brave and walk the talk ... The same goes for any other religious people! ... Even if I see myself being beyond religion & religious dogma ... The same goes for Atheists belief-systems with their priests and hierarchical thinking.
No matter who you are, if you have the courage to stand out and questioning the mass hypnoses, (https://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?119992-The-Psychology-of-Totalitarianism) we all can find a mutual goal: ... "A New Kind of Unity Against Top-down Tyranny (https://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?118748-Top-10-Creepiest-Most-Dystopian-Things-Pushed-By-The-World-Economic-Forum)!" (aka against their Transhumanist Dystopian Authoritarian Technocracy (https://technocracy.news) demanding blind obedience from the masses conditioned 24/7 to be willful slaves serving the unchallenged* WEF (https://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?118748-Top-10-Creepiest-Most-Dystopian-Things-Pushed-By-The-World-Economic-Forum) Agenda2030 (https://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?111148-The-Great-Reset) & NetZero2050 (https://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?115447-Climate-Lockdowns-are-Coming--Agenda2030--Predicted-by-Conspiracy-Researchers-) unelected "Global Governance (https://intelligence.weforum.org/topics/a1Gb0000000LHN2EAO)").

* unchallenged by most people working for mainstream media (who are because of that fact complicit in organized crime against humanity!).

cheers,
John Kuhles (https://substack.com/@johnkuhles) 🦜🦋🌳

[Kryztian]

I received a well-written and most intelligent message yesterday from a good friend, whom I very much respect, explaining that they felt obliged to support Israel in their current military campaign, come what may, because they were a Christian.


Bill:

Do you think you could persuade your friend to give us a longer explanation about why Christians (and Kryztians:bigsmile:) should support Israeli military action? I think it would benefit many to understand this line of thought better.

[Ernie Nemeth]

I don't mind stating it is me Bill is referring to in the quote above.

You can see my arguments in the posts on this thread.


For more clarity I can add that I don't hold this position in a vacuum. I deal with all types from every nation on earth as a tradesman in Canada. I always find the ones open to friendly conversation. I have a good sense of the 'on-the-ground' sentiment from various places around the globe. For instance I knew about the Niger genocide years ago from a coworker who liked me and warned me of what was to come.

From the Israelis I have learnt of their struggles, not the leadership, but those who suffer their betters' precepts.
From Ukrainians and Russians I learnt of the meaninglessness of that war, as all are Slavs. They all know this is the work of the US and the EU.

Muslims are a harder nut to crack, much harder. Recently I found an inroad and I am learning about their beliefs and customs from an unlikely source - a displaced Punjabi who grew up as a Muslim in Pakistan. This one is true believer, not a radical. What I have so far learned is that it is the rabble who adopt the laws of Islam without thoughtful consideration that can become radicalized. Unlike Christians with their dogmatic belief structure, the Koran advocates no one as the ultimate authority but instead warns to keep authority within oneself. If the third eye is cultivated it will allow the true believer to recognize when the truth is spoken.


The radicals, like the Palestinians and Hamas and many others believe that Islam is the 'final religion'. Meaning that the followers of Islam will conquer the world and rid it of all unbelievers.
This radical group sees the opportunity in today's world to make allegiances with the Globalists and the Marxists to further their plans towards a one world Islamic state.

All the signs are there. The Palestinian sympathizers are rallying in our streets, disrupting our Christian ceremonies at this most holy time of the year - on purpose. Churches are being burned to the ground at a prodigious rate. Catholics are persecuted in their home towns. Bethlehem cancelled its Nativity Scene. Christians in Nigeria are being slaughtered. All in the name of the radical Islamic Jihad - Intifada.


I see all this leading to calls to prayers six times a day in a city or town near you. I can see it resulting in the imposition of Sharia Law. I can foresee violence against Christians in the Christian countries of the west.
Secularism is a threat to the existential nature of the human experience. After the dust settles, and many Christians and Muslims lay dead in the streets, the globalists will impose their one world religion - and it will not be Islamic or Christian at all.
Both sides played against the middle, again.

That is what I fear.

[Rizotto]

While Isreal is trying to grab lands in Palestine, Syria, and Lebannon, I would be a lot more worried about the "Greater Isreal" plan than about any notion of 'Islam taking the world over'. Even in Palestine, where Christians have conducted multiple crusades against Muslims over the centuries, it's a fact that now many Palestinians are Christians, and have lived in peace with their fellow Muslim Palestinians, and even Orthodox Jewish Palestinians. They've supported each other as Palestinians.

Here's just one example of this:

Palestinian Christian Pastor Slams Western Silence on Genocide in Gaza

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F96OmajymIQ

[Rizotto]

I've highlighted portions in the article below that seem to really hit the nail.

https://www.vtforeignpolicy.com/2023/12/christian-zionisms-alliance-with-satanism/

Christian Zionism’s Alliance with Satanism
Once a system metaphysically and categorically rejects logic and reason and historical documentation, that system will eventually embrace Satanism, in one way or another.

By Jonas E. Alexis, VT Senior Editor

Former CIA officer Philip Giraldi made an interesting observation in 2014 that bears repeating. He wrote then,

“The connection between America’s wars in the Middle East—and its wars more generally—with the more fundamentalist forms of Christianity in the United States is striking. Opinion polls suggest that the more religiously conservative one is, the more one will support overseas wars or even what many might describe as war crimes.

“Fully 60 percent of self-described evangelicals supported torturing suspected terrorists in 2009, for example. That is somewhat puzzling, as Christianity is, if anything, a religion of peace that only reluctantly embraced a ‘just war’ concept that was deliberately and cautiously evolved to permit Christians—under very limited circumstances of imminent threat—to fight to defend themselves.

“To be sure, some Christian conservatives who might be described as Armageddonists regard America’s Asian wars as part and parcel of the precursor events that will lead to the Second Coming of Christ, which they eagerly look forward to.

“Also, a non-interventionist friend of mine who comes from a religiously conservative background explained to me how the contradiction partly derives from the fact that many evangelical Christians hardly relate to the New Testament at all.

“While they can recite scripture and verse coming from the Old Testament, they are frequently only marginally conversant with the numerous episodes in the New Testament that attest to Jesus’s extolling the virtues of peacemaking and loving one’s neighbor.

“If true, that means that many evangelicals are much more imbued with the values of an eye-for-an-eye or smiting Philistines than they are with the Sermon on the Mount.”

Giraldi should have read Will Durant’s account of Judaizing movements, in which he declared that whenever a party began judaizing, “the Old Testament overshadowed the New.” Giraldi also should have read Heinrich Graetz’s assessment on Judaizing movements. Graetz, the father of modern Jewish historiography, noted that

“Whenever a party in Christendom opposes itself to the ruling church, it assumes a tinge of the Old Testament, not to say Jewish spirit.” Later, Protestant scholars themselves implicitly admitted that this was the case. For example, Protestant historian Donald M. Lewis points out that

The evangelicals’ sense of Britishness was being redefined with Philo-Semitism and Christian Zionism being added as the new layers of British identity. Britain as ‘Protestant Israel’ was to protect and defend ‘Israel according to the flesh’ from its ancient persecuting enemy, Roman Catholicism.

“This novel emphasis upon evangelical connectedness to ‘God’s ancient people’ was thus an idea whose time had come in that it vindicated evangelical claims to be authentic ‘apostolic Christianity….both Philo-Semitism and Christian Zionism became key aspects of the identity construction of British evangelicalism by the 1830s.”[3]

We have argued in the past that Christian Zionism is another subversive movement that has nothing to do with the tenets of Christianity but has everything to do with Jewish revolutionary ideology. It was inevitable that Britain and America began to protect Israel, no matter what the moral and political cost. As Lewis would later recount,

“Britain as ‘Protestant Israel’ was to protect and defend ‘Israel according to the flesh’ from the ancient persecuting enemy, Roman Catholicism.”

[Bill Ryan]

To all Christians reading this: listen to what this Rabbi has to say about Jesus Christ.

(Or cover your ears, and flinch at reading the English subtitles.)

https://t.me/myLordBebo/17862

myLordBebo/17862

[Isserley]

Re above, one Swallow Does Not Make a Summer (or Spring).. that's one abnormal person, not worth of pointing out because it creates more division and hatred.

check out this chanel :bigsmile:

https://youtube.com/@jewsforjesus?si=ANYQ4Lkl-PVniWjk

[Bill Ryan]

Re above, one Swallow Does Not Make a Summer (or Spring).. that's one abnormal person, not worth of pointing out because it creates more division and hatred.

check out this channel :bigsmile:

https://youtube.com/@jewsforjesus?si=ANYQ4Lkl-PVniWjkMany thanks, I took a good look, and this short video below was interesting. The title of the video is: More Jews are for Jesus than ever.

"19% of American Jews believe in Jesus." (0:20) But only 19%??

I confess there's much here that I don't understand, and I may have much to learn about Judaism. I'd always thought that Jesus had been persecuted because he was "King of the Jews". But it seems that 80% of Jews ignore him, and and a few even revile him.

The Koran honors Jesus more than that.

As best as my understanding does permit: Judaism is primarily an Old Testament belief system, and they ignore the New Testament to a very large extent. See my earlier post #7 (https://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?122427-Should-Christians-support-Israeli-military-action&p=1592102#post1592102), much earlier on this thread, about how Marcion (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marcion_of_Sinope) was the first to point out that the Old Testament God and the New Testament God are really entirely different beings.

Here's a very interesting Wkipedia page:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_views_on_Jesus

Extracted: (these are exact quotes)


Jews believe Jesus did not fulfill messianic prophecies that establish the criteria for the coming of the messiah.
Judaism does not accept Jesus as a divine being, an intermediary between humans and God, a messiah, or holy.
Belief in the Trinity is also held to be incompatible with Judaism.
Historically, some Jewish writers and scholars have considered Jesus as the most damaging "false prophet".

A question for Ernie: Why do you feel that as a Christian you're obliged to support Israel? From what I understand, their faith is fundamentally opposed to and in denial of yours.

Your dislike and distrust of Islam and Islamic people, which you've expressed clearly, doesn't seem to me to explain your taking a pro-Israeli position — unless you feel that the Palestinians, so to speak, are "the greater of the two evils".

(But again, even Islamic Palestinians honor Jesus as a great prophet.)

:flower:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VBG2bfCTs9c

[Matthew]

To all Christians reading this: listen to what this Rabbi has to say about Jesus Christ.

(Or cover your ears, and flinch at reading the English subtitles.)

https://t.me/myLordBebo/17862

myLordBebo/17862

It's easy to see how the Bible prophesy will play out. Some are so hungry for a false Messiah right? They'll get the wrong one before seeking Yeshua by its own words. This is a testimony of God's love and patient for us; if He is this faithful and forgiving here then he will also be that faithful to you and forgiving of your sin. The true loving character of God is seriously misrepresented. God gave us freedom and asks for us to love and let hate go. It comes to us as a conviction of the heart, which drives our actions. As a Christian I'm thankful I'm not on the front line for God's movement the Jewish people are. But as we've been taught: rules and traditions, or a proud historical identity are not going to get anyone out of the traps and snares laid for us. To all Christians reading this: the only way out of the trap is to surrender to His worthiness and follow His voice.

[avid]

https://rss.com/podcasts/libertytactics/1255753/
Horrendous sacrificial global harvesting. Absolutely truthfully shocking. An absolutely truth read. Celebrities entrapped. Beyond vile!!!
All interlinked.
OMG, Hide and Seek hunting parties, little children. Beyond the pale, Top echelons, celebrities involved globally.

[avid]

Adrenochrome - a very precious thing atm, the vile folk will do anything to get it. https://rss.com/podcasts/libertytactics/1255753/

[Ernie Nemeth]

I don't see Jews rioting in the streets. I don't see Jews blocking traffic on highways, harassing Christmas shoppers, setting up Satanic displays as Nativity Scenes. I don't see Jews brainwashing our youth into wearing scarfs the enemy wears. I don't see an entire group of Jews so fixated on the next life that they commit suicide with bombs strapped to their chests.

I am okay with Jews. For the most part they fit in society and are part of our culture.

How do you even do a comparison? Muslims stay separate. They do not conform to our way of life. They have their own schools, mosques, food, stores, and businesses. They believe that theirs is the final religion that will conquer all the rest. Does that sound like a group that wants to fit in?

A group of Muslims at work refuse to ever pass on the niceties we are all familiar with. The polite thing to do is to say good morning when you see a fellow worker. This group never does - looking right through us as if we weren't even there. A few times I have called them on it and they quickly acknowledge me - as though they might be found out to be racist. If you speak their language, even if you are not Muslim, they will recognize you. But never in English, never to Canadians.
It is rude and racist. By the way, this group is a plumbing business strictly for Muslims - which is against Canadian rights and privileges. It is against the law to hire based on race or religion or foreign language but they get away with it I don't know how.

Canada is changing rapidly because of the horrible immigration policies of the Canadian Liberal Party and the infamous globalist, Pierre Elliot Trudeau, er Justine Pierre James Trudeau.

[xeon]

I think regardless of where you stand, we mustn't lose sight of the ultimate enemy of Humanity, which has already launched a full scale War against humanity in 2020 (although it has always been raging on long before that), and from all the looks of it, appears to be Communism married with Technology (so called 4th Industrial Revolution). I'm pretty sure if this world comes about, humans will be depopulated in a nightmarish world of plandemics and vaccines (The WHO has said enough - Decade of Pandemics).

And from all the looks of it, those minions of this evil are using China to be the hammer that brings down this control system right under your nose. Things like Digital ID, CBDC, Social Credit, 15 minute city prisons, and 24/7 surveillance (including controlling your mind). While the world is preoccupied with the imperialist war mongers USA, Israel, and the West, and evil Hillary, Obama, Bush, Gates, etc.

The Globalists are ALL in collusion with the CCP; for example, YouTube will delete all videos that raise serious questions against China. There is an anti China channel (China Uncensored) where the guy Chris Chappel has said in a matter of fact way that YouTube will demonetize any channel that I guess "crosses the line". But of course they have to allow some leeway, lest it arouses too much suspicion....

That's why all the videos showing people dropping dead during the initial Covid outbreak were all removed from YouTube when the plandemic went international (by design), having served it's initial purpose of fearmongering. If YouTube kept the videos on, people would start questioning why people in their countries were not dropping dead like in China. This was one of the strangest anomalies that I noticed back in 2020.....shortly after the virus spread out of China, the China videos were all taken down ;)

There is a surprisingly honest interview with a high ranked CCP guy in YouTube that is probably the last copy left (which is really damning to China's image), but I don't think it's safe to share it here as YouTube will detect and then take down the video. It is probably overlooked due to very few views, but I have saved a copy of it. I fear if the video gets views/attention, YouTube will delete the video - so that's how bad it is.....[He basically extolls the virtues of their Social Credit System and "hopes" it gets used by Capitalist countries, not just in China].

I don't quite understand why millions would get so worked up over the Palestine issue to go on marches and protests, while oblivious to the HUGE elephant in the room - the implementation of global Communism, with the WEF taking care of the West, while China takes care of the East. Definitely some "mind control" going on whichever way you slice it.

Both WEF and China/Russia have stated Transhumanism is coming, the NWO is coming, robots are coming, and we will be governed by AI, with NO MORE FREE WILL and I suppose the AI also has a religion in the works that "actually works" (according to Yuval Noah Harari).

https://www.therobotreport.com/china-plans-to-mass-produce-humanoids-by-2025/

Here is a clip where he explicitly states that the era of human free will is over. It's surprising that the most truthful videos get so few views.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NV0CtZga7qM

This seems to be the ultimate goal of the Satanic Globalists. Eliminating the human soul, and the whole concept of Free Will. Very Satanic in its motivation.

Regarding the CCP's attitude towards Muslims, Christians, and basically all religions, let's just say it hates them all, particularly Christianity. But Muslims are not spared either. They have destroyed mosques and churches and committed a very grave sin in the Bible - rewriting it.

Wait a minute, if I was a "hateful Jew" like the one shared in the video above by Bill, aren't Muslims and Christians my enemies? I would be rejoicing wouldn't I. Well thank god, the Communist Chinese hates them too. :ROFL:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7824541/China-rewrite-Bible-Quran-reflect-socialist-values.html

In recent times, they have stepped up their persecution of Christians.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UcZrKTiXqsk

There are many "rumors" of China doing mind control experimentation on Uyghurs, and all kinds of atrocities on them, but this is largely ignored by the world. Why is that so? ;)

Even Muslims themselves ignore this genocide against their own brethen. I've asked ordinary Muslims about this and they don't really have an answer for me, but they get worked up over Palestine. You can ask many Chinese themselves about Falun Gong or Tibet and they will likewise give you the same kind of response (or non response more like it). If they are Pro China, they will condemn the Falun Gong as a CIA created cult..... :ROFL:

And yet, the Muslim world is firmly allied with China. Think about that..... ;)

When Elon Musk and 1000 other scientists submitted an "open letter" to halt the development of AI for 6 months, I couldn't help but notice that NOBODY mentioned let alone thought of China. And I don't think any of those 1000 signatures were Chinese scientists. Remember, China is busy developing AI and Robotics. So what exactly were people hoping for if the Chinese do not participate in this temporary "moratorium"? Of course it wouldn't work!

Just what kind of a world is rapidly taking shape right in front of us today? :fire:

[Ravenlocke]

I don't see Jews rioting in the streets. I don't see Jews blocking traffic on highways, harassing Christmas shoppers, setting up Satanic displays as Nativity Scenes. I don't see Jews brainwashing our youth into wearing scarfs the enemy wears. I don't see an entire group of Jews so fixated on the next life that they commit suicide with bombs strapped to their chests.

I am okay with Jews. For the most part they fit in society and are part of our culture.

How do you even do a comparison? Muslims stay separate. They do not conform to our way of life. They have their own schools, mosques, food, stores, and businesses. They believe that theirs is the final religion that will conquer all the rest. Does that sound like a group that wants to fit in?

A group of Muslims at work refuse to ever pass on the niceties we are all familiar with. The polite thing to do is to say good morning when you see a fellow worker. This group never does - looking right through us as if we weren't even there. A few times I have called them on it and they quickly acknowledge me - as though they might be found out to be racist. If you speak their language, even if you are not Muslim, they will recognize you. But never in English, never to Canadians.
It is rude and racist. By the way, this group is a plumbing business strictly for Muslims - which is against Canadian rights and privileges. It is against the law to hire based on race or religion or foreign language but they get away with it I don't know how.

Canada is changing rapidly because of the horrible immigration policies of the Canadian Liberal Party and the infamous globalist, Pierre Elliot Trudeau, er Justine Pierre James Trudeau.


There’s a difference between Muslims and Palestinians. Muslims encompass all those that adhere to the Islamic religion and can be found all around the world. Palestinians are mostly found in the West Bank and Gaza Strip and though most follow the religion of Islam there are also those that follow the Christian and or Catholic religion.

In Canada according to Wikipedia (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_in_Canada)

“National and ethnic origins
edit
According to the 2011 National Household Survey, there were 424,925 Muslims living in the Greater Toronto Area equalling 7.7% of the total metropolitan population, of which the Muslim community consists of persons of Pakistani, Bangladeshi, Indian, Iranian, African, Egyptian/Arab, Caucasian, Southeast Asian, and Latin descent.[27] Greater Montreal's Muslim community was 221,040[28] in 2011 or nearly 6% of the total metropolitan population which includes a highly diverse Muslim population from Western/Southern Europe, Caribbean, North Africa, the Middle East, and the Indian subcontinent. Canada's national capital Ottawa hosts many Lebanese, South Asian and Somali Muslims, where the Muslim community numbered approximately 65,880 or 5.5% in 2011.[29] In addition to Toronto, Ottawa and Montreal, nearly every major Canadian metropolitan area has a Muslim community, including Vancouver (73,215), where more than a third are of Iranian descent, Calgary (58,310), Edmonton (46,125), Windsor (15,575), Winnipeg (11,265), and Halifax (7,540). In recent years, there has been rapid population growth in Calgary and Edmonton because of the booming economy.[30]”


And according to Wikipedia (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canada%E2%80%93Palestine_relations ) there are about approximately 30,000 Palestinians living in Canada.

The distinction between Muslims and Palestinians especially referring to Canada is important here since the topic here is concerning Palestinians and mostly the Palestinians refugees living in Gaza and West Bank.

You are lumping all Muslims as Palestinians and referring to all Muslims in Canada as being Palestinian when that is not the case.

Also Muslims worship in Mosques and Jews worship in Synagogues, Christians and Catholics in Christian and Catholic Churches.

Your above description of your experience with Muslims is not about Palestinians behaving “anti social” but about Canadian foreigners that have immigrated from different parts of the world and happen to be Muslim.

Muslims having their own markets as you put it, has to do with international food that cannot be found in regular supermarkets and also because some foods particularly meats have to be “halal” just like Jews prefer “kosher” meats, etc.
International grocery stores can be found everywhere and of many different nationalities.
In Canada and the states depending whereabouts you live you can find international grocery stores that carry foods pertaining to the immigrants living in those areas such as Korean, Chinese, Mexican, Italian,Indian etc.

As to Muslims not Palestinians attending their own schools, this article sheds some light on this point,

https://csrs.nd.edu/evaluations/canadian-islamic-schools-unraveling-the-politics-of-faith-gender-knowledge-and-identity/

As to the “riots” you mention above, you didn’t really describe who is exactly rioting or if these so called “riots” were people demonstrating in support of the Palestinians being genocided in Gaza now.


As to your comment about Muslims staying separate and do not conform to “our way of life”, again you are lumping all Muslims, who aren’t even Palestinians, the Muslims living in Canada are immigrants from different parts of the world including, Lebanese, Bosnians, Albanians, Pakistanis, Yemeni, Somali, etc, most of these came to Canada to get away from the civil wars in their countries in search of a better life.

Also the phrase “our way of life” sounds discriminatory, biased, judgmental, sounds like what colonialism tried to do to the native Americans? Immigrants from around the world have their own cultures and traditions, are they to give those up because they no longer live in their own country if those traditions don’t break any law?

And your complaint of the Muslims you say you interact with at work that you say are unfriendly and speak their language not English, that isn’t just Muslims that do that, foreign immigrants that can’t speak English fluently, prefer to speak in their own language among themselves. When I lived in Toronto, Italians spoke Italian, Poles spoke Polish, Hungarians, Portuguese, Asians, etc they all had their neighborhoods and spoke in their language at work, or on the bus etc and only spoke a little English when spoken to in English. Also speaking among themselves in their language gave them privacy so outsiders were not able to understand what they spoke about.

In conclusion your explanation of why you do not support Palestinians is really not about Palestinians but Muslims in general.


And by the way,
“I am okay with Jews. For the most part they fit in society and are part of our culture.”,

In Toronto they the Jews owned most of the sweat shops years ago and treated the workers atrociously as well as underpaying them. I know this from relatives that had to work in these factories to supplement the family income to make ends meet. Suffice to say even the dirty bathroom stalls had no doors for privacy and workers were watched like hawks and had to get permission to use the bathroom and then followed and timed. In sewing factories and jewelry factories they were only paid by piece work and treated real shabby.

[Rizotto]

I would just like to add that the source of conflicts world wide is the globalist cabal. They'll use anything to divide us all, as that fits their ultimate depopulation goal. Religious division is their most useful tool, as this can be used to hype up controversies on 'faith issues' that cannot ever be related to facts. For those with evil intents to manipulate whole populations, it's easy to make up 'faith' issues. In reality, all of the Abrahamic religions (Judaism, Christianity and Islam) have at times practised widespread conquests of lands and genocide. This has to stop. That is one reason I will never identify with a specific religion.

How about we just look at all of these religions with greater perspective, and choose only the parts that will uplift and unite us, and help us all to weather the great storm that's being brewed against us by some of the worst anti-human entities that are currently wielding much power on the earth.

As for Canada specifically, we have a huge problem with mass immigration that has caused severe housing crisis all over the country. We have homeless people here dying of cold in the snow. And overwhelmed health care system. That's one more thing DELIBERATELY planned by the globalist cabal, and implemented by their puppet Turdeau.

For example, Bibi Netanyahu has already decided that he'll shipped Palestinians en masse to Canada (those that survive his indiscriminate bombing). Bibi is just another tool of the globalists.

Anyway, the Palestinians would really prefer to stay on their own land, obviously. People of good will should support them for this.

[Rizotto]

Isreali military deliberately killing civilians in Christian churches in Gaza, carpet bombing christian quarters, etc.

I'm only pointing out that the Isreali genocide has targeted Christian arabs in Palestine just as much as Muslims. But I do not do this to divide between any religion or ethnicity. Let's keep in mind that it is far too easy to drive people against each other, even to one's own detriment. Let's call on higher awareness to prevail.

"They're targeting Christianity's holiest sites on purpose" | Redacted News

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j8hv3LVwzTk

[grapevine]

@ Ernie Nemeth

I too have Jewish friends, Ernie, all of whom are warm. kind-hearted people and would give you the shirts off their backs.  I also have the most fantastic Muslim neighbours and, hand on heart, you couldn't meet a more loving family; I consider myself very fortunate.  Having said that, I wouldn't like restrictive Sharia law in the UK..  Does that make me a hypocrite?  I hope not, but feel that generalising on race and religion en masse is irrelevant.

What is going on in Gaza and West Bank right now is atrocious, there's no denying it surely?  Regardless of Israel having the right to defend itself, which of course it does, does not give it the right to murder defenceless, innocent civilians, most of them women and children.   

War changes people, Ernie; it ruins everybody's lives and they're never the same afterwards.  Many veterans in WW2 never spoke of the unspeakable horrors they witnessed; some were shell-shocked and never recovered:  Some deserted and were shot.  They never had social media and civilians never saw what went on.  The same happened in Vietnam; terrible things happened (like Mei Lai) and many Vietnam vets suffer from mental health disorders today still.  And remember how US and UK soldiers reportedly behaved to their prisoners in Iraq.  As of May 2023 (according to Wiki) there were still 30 prisoners in Guantanamo Bay. 
 
What makes this war different is that we're all now witnessing these atrocities in real time, and it's very distressing to see the horror - from both sides, but especially the burned, maimed and lifeless little bodies being pulled from the rubble by distraught parents.  Many of us here on the forum are suffering from PTSD, albeit minor in comparison with the victims.  And the people orchestrating it - on both sides - are well back from the fighting as usual.

As a species we haven't moved on at all, and it's terrifying.

[Rizotto]

Well said Miller, I agree with most of what you say. (removed) In reality, the Isrealis did 1,000 times worse than Hamas ever did before October 7, and 10,000 worse than Hamas since October 7.

We often hear the claim that 'Isreal has the right to defend itself', but what about Palestinians, do they not have the right to defend themselves when settlers steal their land and kill them, and when they get blockaded on a narrow strip of land with no way out?

Looks like Hamas has been the strongest defender of Palestinians. On October 7 it appears that Hamas' main goal was to capture as many Isreali hostages as possible to exchange for the thousands of Palestinians kidnapped by Isreali military and imprisoned without charges FOR YEARS, including women and children, often abused and tortured while in prison. What else could Palestinians do to free their people? Until October 7, the world simply ignored them.

I'll say this again, I have Jewish friends and know many Jewish people speaking out against the crimes committed by Isreal. But now we're seeing what gruesome atrocities Isrealis are capable of. It has reached the point of widespread madness, quite frankly. When a society like Isreal has lived the supremacist lie for decades, it weakens them, and there comes a time when the cracks are so deep and interconnected that it will soon shatter. Sadly, I hope that happens before many more Palestinians get slaughtered.

[grapevine]

Well said Miller, I agree with most of what you say. Except for the part that "both sides" are equally guilty.

I didn't say that, Rizotto.

[Rizotto]

Well said Miller, I agree with most of what you say. Except for the part that "both sides" are equally guilty.

I didn't say that, Rizotto.

My apologies Miller, you are correct. I just removed that incorrect sentence from my post.

I still feel strongly there's a need to discuss what options were available to Palestinians to defend themselves, given the fact that for decades Isreal has ignored countless UN resolutions trying to solve this conflict, and that Isreal has blockaded for decades, stealing more Palestiniand lands and killing them if they resist. That is the big question. What can Palestinian do to put an end to the hell they've been through since 1948. Seems like the October 7 Hamas operation is the only thing that moved the issue into international spolight. (This thread is probably not the best place to discuss this.)

[grapevine]

Well said Miller, I agree with most of what you say. Except for the part that "both sides" are equally guilty.

I didn't say that, Rizotto.

My apologies Miller, you are correct. I just removed that incorrect sentence from my post.

I still feel strongly there's a need to discuss what options were available to Palestinians to defend themselves, given the fact that for decades Isreal has ignored countless UN resolutions trying to solve this conflict, and that Isreal has blockaded for decades, stealing more Palestiniand lands and killing them if they resist. That is the big question. What can Palestinian do to put an end to the hell they've been through since 1948. Seems like the October 7 Hamas operation is the only thing that moved the issue into international spolight. (This thread is probably not the best place to discuss this.)

Thanks Rizotto . . .

Firstly, this thread is "Should Christians support Israel?" and I think the answer must be no.  Although I'm not an expert on the Bible, I feel I'm making a safe assumption that Christ himself never went to war and opted instead for turning the other cheek. Ditto his Disciples, who didn't put up any resistance when he was taken by the Romans.  And so theoretically Christians should follow his example, no?

Israel's right to defend itself isn't just restricted to Israel.  All countries have that right and so do individuals.  Where the law gets hazy is the extent to which that defence is justified, and it's patently obvious, or should be, that Israel are disregarding innocent civilians - even their own (ie hostages) in their efforts to wipe out Hamas. 

But let's go back a bit to October 7th.   Hamas knew that Israel would react in this way, if only because of their terrible treatment of the Palestinians leading up to that day, yet they made no provision at all for their people who were already captive in Gaza and the West Bank.   This also took most of the attention away from what was going on in Ukraine.  I'd really like to know why Hamas chose this date and who else was behind it. ie Russia maybe, to dilute USA's presence and financial/weaponry backing in Ukraine?   You're right that Israel's unacceptable behaviour towards the Palestinians has been ongoing for decades, and has been completely ignored by USA/UK.  This is another reason I think Russia may have been influential because it was a similar situation to what was happening in Ukraine before Russia's "special military operation".  

In the meantime, whether Israel are supported by anyone doesn't seem to matter a jot to them, but for how long and how far this will be allowed to continue remains to be seen.

[Ernie Nemeth]

When you use history to excuse the behavior of a group of terrorists without pointing out the history of those other countries that did not resort to terrorism but had the same historic precedent, you are not being fair.

There have been many such claims over territory. For instance, Hungary. Hungary lost much of its historic lands, including its coastal areas long ago. Yugoslavia is another, even better example. Not only did they lose territory, they were split along race lines - proving that diversity does not work in reality, only in the minds of the globalists. And because of that diversity there was a bloody civil war, also along race lines that Hungary did not have to contend with.

Abomination is abomination, regardless of the excuses.

[Rizotto]

Isreal can only pursue that genocide operation as long as they get the okay and military aid from the USA. In other words, Isreal is NOTHING without the USA backing. And that backing has only been set up by Isreal's wheeling and dealing. They've literally bought the compliance fro USA congress with funding diverted from the USA taxpayers themselves. Isreal apartheid goal is based on notions of being the chosen people and god gave them the land. Nobody else in the world believes that nonsense. Such bizarre ideology is simply not sustainable. Especially when it involves the most brutal genocide.

Prior to October 7, Isreali militants did 1,000 times than Hamas ever did. Since October 7, Isreal has done 10,000 times worse than Hamas ever did.

Committing genocide has squarely placed Isreal into terrorist status. Let's be clear: Israel is a terrorist state. It has been conducting unprovoked attacks on neighbouring countries, and conducted assassinations of important political figures, and set up false flags to get USA into wars on their (Isreal) behalf.

https://www.haaretz.com/2008-04-16/ty-article/report-netanyahu-says-9-11-terror-attacks-good-for-israel/0000017f-db7e-db22-a17f-ffff07ea0000
Report: Netanyahu Says 9/11 Terror Attacks Good for Israel
According to Ma'ariv, Netanyahu said Israel is 'benefiting from attack' as it 'swung American public opinion.'

[Rizotto]

"It's a huge honour to speak to Reverend Munther Isaac, Senior Pastor at the Evangelical Lutheran Christmas Church of Bethlehem, who delivered a hugely powerful Christmas message about Israel's onslaught on Gaza. We speak about Western complicity - including those who remain silent - and the refusal to describe Israel's actions for what they are."

Palestinian Christian Leader: "History Will Hold You Accountable" Over Gaza Genocide

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I7tAxR5mzUk

[shaberon]

More Jews are for Jesus than ever.



Messianic Judaism is a recognized minority in Israel. It is a near-offshoot of Sabbatean Frankists or "Christian Jews".





Marcion (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marcion_of_Sinope) was the first to point out that the Old Testament God and the New Testament God are really entirely different beings.



Marcion didn't really say anything about a New Testament, rather, the effort was to prevent it from happening.

The original would-be Christian fragments contain no Jesus or Christ. There is no proof that they were anything but later redactions to overturn Marcion, along with Simon, Serapis, and Apollonius.

The oldest known New Testament, Codex Siniaiticus, clearly shows "Christ" as an erasure/replacement of what was already written.


Of course, the only way I know to stay sane is to hold these things at arm's length, and review them as social engineering. They both pretty much threw validity out the window as soon as they started.

Again, if there needs to be much debate about what a Savior or Messiah is, that would be a self-announcement from Zoroaster. These are all regurgitations of what he said about himself. It has no other precursor. The Jewish temporal messiah acquired this theological mode during the Babylonian Captivity, and the idea was re-constructed by followers of Jesus.

The Greek Soter was not an individual, but a class--similar role, but, a job for everybody, if you choose to accept the mission.

Sorry that none of these ideas have proved useful for the progress of peace. The fruits of their actions should prove them to be false. The one thing we have never found in pagan literature is killing someone else for what they think, or who they biologically are. There was war for power, no tricks. As of now, we can barely manage a coherent conversation thanks to the Tower of Babel designed by these odd beliefs.

None of them are the only choices, they can barely be called legitimate choices.

Anyone want to explain why we should pay attention to a strange rumor about a corpse walking around?

Never mind.

It might turn into an excuse to steal land for those genetically affiliated to the losers of millennia ago.

[Ratszinger]

I often wonder if the the Jewish people ever feel guilty at all for how they have changed the face of war on this planet.
History says it all. Just look at the names of those involved in directly making mass destruction boms or carrying on the research at other times or to have advised or contributed somehow to what the USA did to Japan!
Hans Bethe,
Robert Oppenheimer,
Enrico Fermi,
Klaus Fuchs,
Glen Seaborg,
Ernest :Lawrence,
Eugene Gardner,
Richard Feynman,
Robert Bacher,
James Chadwick,
Pief Panofsky,
Victor Weisskopf,
Edward Teller,
Herman Von Helmholtz,
Otto Frisch
Albert Einstein.

And it isn't just the New Testament it's the Old Testament too that is just as much pagan.
The original ten commandments were surprising to me when Mauro Biglino showed me what the stone tablets really had written on them.
Write down these words, because with these words I contract an alliance with you and Israel.

Do not contract alliance with inhabitants of the country

Do not take woman of the country for Israel's children

Do not make divinities on fused metal

Observe the feasts

Reserve all your male first borns to me.

Respect Saturday

Every male will have to present himself to me three times a year

Do not offer the victims blood on bread.

Donate the firstlings of the land to me.

Do not cook the kid in the mothers blood

Don't murder

Don't wish

These are the fundamental laws of Yahweh, these are what is in your Bible but not in your bible.

You don't see those commandments in any Christian bible I've read. Mauro says the bible tells us that Elohim died also, and that further it states that "They" all die like us. Anyway, its hard to wrap your head around all the corruption in the religion but it's organized crime so no surprise here really.

[shaberon]

And it isn't just the New Testament it's the Old Testament too that is just as much pagan.


What, exactly, would this mean?


paganus = "country dweller"






The original ten commandments were surprising to me when Mauro Biglino showed me what the stone tablets really had written on them.


Has the Ark of the Covenant been found? Perhaps in the Yukon this time??

Granted, some form of Mosaic Law must have been the original stamp that separated Yhwh followers from the universe, but I am not aware of anything other than late editions of it. Actually, I'd be willing to start with any mention of Moses prior to the Babylonian Captivity, if there is any possibility of showing he was not invented 500 years after the events are supposed to have happened.

[Ratszinger]

And it isn't just the New Testament it's the Old Testament too that is just as much pagan.


What, exactly, would this mean?


paganus = "country dweller"






The original ten commandments were surprising to me when Mauro Biglino showed me what the stone tablets really had written on them.


Has the Ark of the Covenant been found? Perhaps in the Yukon this time??

Granted, some form of Mosaic Law must have been the original stamp that separated Yhwh followers from the universe, but I am not aware of anything other than late editions of it. Actually, I'd be willing to start with any mention of Moses prior to the Babylonian Captivity, if there is any possibility of showing he was not invented 500 years after the events are supposed to have happened.

What does it mean? Seriously? You can't look up "Pagan" on your own? I don't get the question. Pagan=making sacrifices of victims to their god(s) usually the surrounding country folk they were told to avoid or take women from for their children and Moses certainly knew that was no God when he made his deal on the top of that mountain! Biglino backs that up, and he's a biblcial scholar that translated no less than 17 of the Vatican pubications still used today as well as many other Christian texts. Alexander the Great was a pagan conqueror btw.

Before all this tho, Vegetation cults are believed to have started religion according to Mauro and, it seems, are older than stellar or solar cults but were later blended with them and later with Christian belief when Rome began it's "Approved State Religion"
Anyway, In the primitive vegetation-god sacrifice, the victim was, it is believed, originally the king, or head chief, or head man of the tribe who in some cases gave himself up voluntarily for the people. It was at one time believed by ancient man that the prosperity of the tribe depended on the well-being of the ruler. So, if the King became old and feeble or ill it was believed, well, it was a forgone conclusion really, at least to the people, that the tribe would certainly suffer and probably in a similar decline as their leader unless they did something to prevent it. So in early vegetation cults the king would be sacrificed.
Then the king would be replaced with a more youthful and healthy replacement usually of his own family. It is believed at times that someone wanting the King dead caused his sickness in the first place for the throne.
Later in time the king eventually figured out how to make the sacrifice one of his sons. This led to the, "Son of God" belief's in Mauro's speech because of course most considered the king to be god in human form. The son of the king being substituted in the ritual, and being of divinity himself would properly be thought of as the son of god. At a still later periods criminals would be selected, often from country tribes defeated in battle for whatever reason. These were most often condemned prisoners. The culprit was usually given royal treatment for a time and then put to death! These victims were most often secured to a sacred tree and their arms outstretched in the form of a cross which later led to hangings on the cross. Still later 'Scape Goat" rituals where a goat or pack animal was selected and laden down with the guilty pleasures of the village would be released and taken out of the village so as to remove their sins or guilt to make attonement of them to the gods.

Later by the time of Charlamagne of course Rome wanted a singular religion in the empire due to all the infighting between belief system leaders in the empire, burning each others temples and places of worship, killing the leaders and so on. Roman government didn't care really what people believed they just wanted people to produce and pay their taxes and stop all the religious violence hence the need for a new one religion shutting down all others. Of course it just led to more violence but that isn't the point really. The end result was nothing like Jesus taught or what was presented as his teachings. And today the Roman Catholic Church is just that, a "Roman" creation run by organized crime families.

[DeDukshyn]

Responding to the OP ... (sorry for the interruption ;))

I heard that in a think-tank video the other day on the topic of the Isreali / Palestinian conflict, where a woman claimed that, as a Christian, she was obliged to support whatever actions Isreal wants to take no matter how horrific, because the bible said the Israelis are God's "chosen ones" ...

And I thought to myself .. "That's the biggest load of horse **** I've ever heard in my life!"

Don't get me wrong, Hamas IS a terrorist organization, and the Palestinians deserve better leadership, but if you want to ignore what Israel has put the general population of Palestinians through, and ignore the international war crimes, chemical weapons attacks, mass bombings, and over-retaliation, scheming and strategizing of the Isreali government to inflict as much continuous pain on the Palestinian people as possible, in the name of "god" - I really wonder what god it is that you worship?

I don't support either side - both sides have virtues and atrociousness. Where I used to live there is a high Lebanese / Palestinian population and some of those people are just so full of hate, its disturbing ... but, I can understand some of it. They need to get their sh!t together and learn that in Canada we generally don't appreciate that level of hate, and, many get themselves into a lot of trouble because of it. I did have a good Lebanese friend that I worked with and he had PTSD from surviving the BS over in the middle east - he had some good stories, but he was an example of a great loving person, that just wished for nothing more than to have peace over there.

In my view, any good Christian, that actually followed the teachings of Jesus should have no tolerance for violence of any kind. You don't need to support anyone, you don't need to condemn anyone. You need to learn to love as Jesus did - once you've achieved that, come back and see if you want to tell me who's violence you choose to support -- pretty sure it would be no one's ...

[Bruce G Charlton]

I am not sure how many of the commenters on this thread explicitly regard themselves as A Christian (as I do); but it makes a difference whether or not one sees the world from the perspective of desiring Salvation above all - which is, minimally stated; to follow Jesus Christ to resurrected eternal Heavenly life, after death.

I notice a recurrent theme on this thread that asserts that Christians cannot, or should not, support war or violence. Well, it of course depends on what is meant by Christian - but this kind of pacifism was not seen in Christianity until the late 1700s (at first among Quakers - but even Quakers did not start out as pacifists) - therefore late in the history of the faith. And I would regard pacifism as an early sign of the corruption of Christianity towards a this-worldly-focused "progressive" and political basis, that has now all-but displaced the spiritual from all the major Christian churches.

To have pacifism (rejection of violence, including war) as a fundamental principle is Not therefore a Christian doctrine - although some real Christians have had this conviction - indeed pacifism (in a broad sense) is probably much more an Eastern, e.g. Buddhist or Hindu (some sects like Jainism) religious ideal.

Christianity is ultimately "not of this world", and the Christian Heaven is on the other side of death. The worst thing, for a Christian, is (or should be) spiritual not material; it is to reject or exclude Love.

Attitudes to physical violence and war should not, therefore, be made fundamental to Christianity. Whether violence/ war are justified or necessary will depend on circumstances and (especially) motivations, and on the alternatives.

The specific issue of whether Christians "ought to support" Israel is therefore a different question from whether all Christians "ought to be" pacifists, and the two questions should be kept separate if we are not to become confused.

[ExomatrixTV]

Maybe Related?

878780260561465

video source (https://www.facebook.com/100022693453405/videos/878780260561465)

[AutumnW]

In my experience most, if not the majority, of Christians - or followers of any relegious denomination really - are good at 'paying lip service' to their chosen belief system. Very few can 'walk the walk' though.

Personally I cannot begin to comprehend the mental gymnastics required to conclude one had to support any side in a 'Hell in microcosm' conflagration because they are a Christian (or any other). In fact it seems to me that would go against the prime teachings of Jesus, they're not exactly throwing the moneylenders out of the temple here - it is more like the fire and brimstone of a yahweh jealous god. Perhaps it comes down to that, do you as a Christian subscribe to New Testament thinking or Old Testament thinking. I don't think you can pick and choose depending on circumstance.

Marcion (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marcion_of_Sinope) (85—160 AD) was the first scholar to point out that the angry, vengeful, ruthless, punishing God of the Old Testament (Jehovah) and the loving God of the New Testament seemed to be two entirely different beings — with entirely different teachings and value systems.

For this inconvenient truth (which I'm personally persuaded is very valid), despite having been a wealthy financial donor to the early Roman Church, he was immediately excommunicated.

It appears that Netanyahu's militant political convictions are entirely Old Testament based. Many have argued, following from where Marcion left off, that the Old Testament Jehovah is not only a different being than the New Testament God (who Jesus is claimed by many to have represented), but is actually what Gnostics call the Demiurge.

The Demiurge (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demiurge) is a fundamentally materialistic, self-serving and evil being. Many might suspect that Netanyahu is woven from similar cloth.

:flower:

The old testament is about and for those who worship a small g God, imo. You can't possibly appreciate a universal God or creator, while paying homage to a small g god who has a chosen people, and that aint you, if you're Christian. Or for that matter, if you are anything else.

In the time of the old testament, many tribal people had their own tribal god. Yahweh just happened to be the god of one tribe. I can't think of a more repulsive religion than hard core Judaism.

[shaberon]

What does it mean? Seriously? You can't look up "Pagan" on your own? I don't get the question. Pagan=making sacrifices of victims to their god(s) usually the surrounding country folk they were told to avoid or take women from for their children and Moses certainly knew that was no God when he made his deal on the top of that mountain!


Yeah, seriously.

I am a pagan and was curious to know what was being thrown around this time.

Was the Ark of the Covenant found?

Is there any empirical evidence for Moses whatsoever?

That's what I was getting at.

Alexander the Great was a devotee of Aristotle who said:


Non-Greeks are animals, kill them all.

Aristotle is the foundation of Christianity and western philosophy, which is a cause for concern.

[Ratszinger]

What does it mean? Seriously? You can't look up "Pagan" on your own? I don't get the question. Pagan=making sacrifices of victims to their god(s) usually the surrounding country folk they were told to avoid or take women from for their children and Moses certainly knew that was no God when he made his deal on the top of that mountain!


Yeah, seriously.

I am a pagan and was curious to know what was being thrown around this time.

Was the Ark of the Covenant found?

Is there any empirical evidence for Moses whatsoever?

That's what I was getting at.

Alexander the Great was a devotee of Aristotle who said:


Non-Greeks are animals, kill them all.

Aristotle is the foundation of Christianity and western philosophy, which is a cause for concern.

Alexander is known as a GRECO ROMAN PAGAN, King of Macedon, the CONQUEROR of Achaemenid Persia, with his death marking the start of the Hellenistic period according to the history I've had, one of many other. Niall of the Nine Hostages, my direct ancestor was another Pagan leader, a Celt also. I didn't write the history I was taught that in classes.

[Blastolabs]

We now know that Israel was aware of the attack including all specific details including date, location, and number of hostages that would be taken.

Yet they allowed it to happen. Therefore they wanted it to happen which means there is no argument that justifies any Israeli response.

Re: what Bill mentioned about the two books of the Bible having different "Gods". The original Hebrew version of the old testament does not ever use the word "god" Instead variations of the "Elohim" are used throughout. Elohim and plural and is often described as "not having a translation" but can also be seen to means "powerful ones from the sky". The old testament seems to be a warning about non friendly aliens. Perhaps the group behind the war in Gaza still worships/ works for these same entities.

[Rizotto]

I haven't yet watched the documentary named "Praying for Armageddon". (See trailer below.) Have any of you seen it yet? Your thoughts?
It's about 'christian zionists' in America contributing to Israel's conflicts.

Quite frankly, I'm concerned (if not scared!) about these 'christian zionists' locally. Their lust for Israel's revenge is beyond the pale. They're obsessed with 'end times' prophesies.
I have to deal with these folks in everyday life, so I wonder if there's a way to defuse this situation...

Praying for Armageddon - Trailer (Norske undertekster)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FNZLz8HlwVk

[Flash]

What distinguishes Christian religions from other monotheistic ones is the addition of love / love for all, nature, humans, active love. This does not go with fear and anything related to fear. War is the embodiement of fear. Voting for it is being anti-christian. Full period here. My ‘wise’ opinion.

And my actual bf is Jewish, hence strong discussions here. I am convinced that not only the actual war is terribly harmful for civil palestinians and not justified -because there are always other paths - but also that the war is terribly harmful to the Jews in the long run, I am afraid for them. And for the whole planet.

[shaberon]

I have to deal with these folks in everyday life...]


How do you do it?

I live under a law, that is, I cannot communicate with the neighbor.

No one else has any protection, and, sooner or later this is going to come out. And, I am through with the art of gentle persuasion. I can't imagine what it is like to deal with them at all, let alone on a daily basis. I don't plan on doing a particularly tidy job of it.

[Kryztian]

I haven't yet watched the documentary named "Praying for Armageddon". (See trailer below.) Have any of you seen it yet? Your thoughts?
It's about 'christian zionists' in America contributing to Israel's conflicts.

Quite frankly, I'm concerned (if not scared!) about these 'christian zionists' locally. Their lust for Israel's revenge is beyond the pale. They're obsessed with 'end times' prophesies.
I have to deal with these folks in everyday life, so I wonder if there's a way to defuse this situation...

Praying for Armageddon - Trailer (Norske undertekster)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FNZLz8HlwVk

You can watch the first 47 minutes of this movie right here:
https://www.aljazeera.com/program/witness/2024/3/20/praying-for-armageddon-evangelicals-the-us-and-the-middle-east

I wonder how many of these "Christians" realize that many of the Palestinians whose genocide they are supporting are in fact Christian. They talk about "Judeo-Christian" values, yet they are zealously supporting the bombing of historic churches, the taking of land from Christian farmers, the violence and brutalization of Christians who are just trying to live their lives on the same land their ancestors lived on. They drive around on their Harleys, "praying" at mega churches, promenading in from of the Capitol building, claiming the symbols and legacy of Jesus Christ, while doing the work of Hitler (or if you prefer, Satan) and working diligently working towards the torture and extermination of peoples who are secular or Moslem and often, their fellow Christians.

[Ernie Nemeth]

Considering that all the Abrahamic religions are the propaganda of a group of little gods, the idea that a good death will lead to a Nirvana is preposterous. Even if true, the you that is You cannot exist in reality since You have learned how to reject reality while living in this body. The pretext that suddenly your small heart and tiny brain will expand and all errors will be corrected without altering your gestalt is laughable. You will not be you in heaven, if such a thing were real.

If so, then all wars, lands, history that uses these religions as excuses for atrocities is unsupportable.

[Flash]

I haven't yet watched the documentary named "Praying for Armageddon". (See trailer below.) Have any of you seen it yet? Your thoughts?
It's about 'christian zionists' in America contributing to Israel's conflicts.

Quite frankly, I'm concerned (if not scared!) about these 'christian zionists' locally. Their lust for Israel's revenge is beyond the pale. They're obsessed with 'end times' prophesies.
I have to deal with these folks in everyday life, so I wonder if there's a way to defuse this situation...

Praying for Armageddon - Trailer (Norske undertekster)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FNZLz8HlwVk


Oh my God, this video is absolutely terrible. And they call themselves Christians while only talking/thinking about violence!!!
Not any better than fundamentalist warlike Muslims or some very orthodox Jewish sects. Creating fear, violence, as far as I am concerned, retard human beings, literally, not able to think by themselves let alone opening their heart.

I am so happy that I am living up north !!!

[Kryztian]

Oh my God, this video is absolutely terrible. And they call themselves Christians while only talking/thinking about violence!!!
Not any better than fundamentalist warlike Muslims or some very orthodox Jewish sects. Creating fear, violence, as far as I am concerned, retard human beings, literally, not able to think by themselves let alone opening their heart.

I am so happy that I am living up north !!!

I bet you have them in Canada too. Maybe not in the same numbers, but there is always crazy spilling over through your border from the south! :sun:

[Rizotto]

Regrettably, we do have many of these 'christian zionists' in Canada, and they're a sizeable cult. Even in northern Canada where I live. Apparently, their origin is from the USA evanlegical movement, and they've pushed hard to spread their ideology. Somehow, Trump is part of it, as you can see from the above trailer. Yes, even in Canada this cult has already 'voted' for Trump.

By the way, I've tried telling them that many Palestinians are christians. Their response? "They're just check-point christians." (Referring to Israel's check-points where all Palestinians have to be 'inspected'). In other words, they completely dismissed these Palestinians christians as fakes, an obvious attempt to absolve themselves of their complicity in Israel's crimes.

They even gloat on social media about Lebanese deaths and injuries from the criminal booby-trap pagers that Isreal indiscriminately planted in Lebanon. They will try and censor all and any mention of Israel's misdeeds, by using accusations of 'anti-semitism', as well as the weirdest interpretations of biblical prophecies, including made-up stuff.
It never ends.

This level of irrational zeal for Israel, no matter what abomination they commit, is incredibly creepy, especially since it predominantly shapes USA's middle east policy. War criminal Mike Pompeo is one of them. I recall seeing a video of Mike Pompeo in 2018 where he addressed an assembly of this cult, enthusiastically saying that 'Damascus is about to fall as we're all looking forward to'. (Referring to the CIA-led terror attacks on Syria by IS, and some end times prophesy from Revelations.) Obviously deeply brainwashed by zionist-implanted ideology.

It's surprising that the hold of 'christian zionists' have on world geopolitics isn't getting more discussed. It should be getting much more exposure by independent media, if we ever want to stop the enslavement of the west.

[Rizotto]

One more thing, these 'christian zionists' absolutely insist that Isreal has all land rights over Gaza and the West Bank, as per God's decree who gave them that land. The Palestinians are the usurpers, as they came from Jordan, Syria and elsewhere. Not my words, that's just what they're saying. To think they have Trump's support for all this...

[shaberon]

If so, then all wars, lands, history that uses these religions as excuses for atrocities is unsupportable.


Here you referred to the category "Abrahamic".

On this view, I think we might agree on something. I would probably extend it to *any* doctrine, religion, philosophy, of supremacism, that demonizes "other", and encourages atrocity.

A more important example of that is probably Aristotle, This happens to be the backbone of most European religion, and secular philosophy, even though he didn't pay attention to Abraham.

But then yes, of course, "Abrahamic" contains Evangelism as well as Rabbinical commentary. They claim some sort of relationship. Both are inventions, not apostolic disseminations.


The American Evangelist is a particularly obnoxious pest. First of all, it is quite easy to show they have nothing to do with the religion of Jerusalem. I don't understand why people who are not members believe they can freely apply the term "Christian" to themselves. They're something else. We can show them the English Bible was invented from the late 1500s, along with the delirium about Europeans being the Lost Tribes. The English Bible must contain some inaccuracies, because even Catholicism cannot agree with Zionism. The actual Christian view is that the Jews are committing the worst sin possible, rejecting the Savior.

If they are showing up in Canada, do they look like the Nice Car Club?

Any type of direct charity being done?

I really have no idea how to get anyone like that to actually listen. There's this impassable chasm that starts with the person across the street. It's got to be forceably restrained, because we will not be able to soften the attitude any time soon. Certainly this thread did not result in much of a "yes" response that was interested in promoting itself. The noise only happens in pre-approved areas.

[Rizotto]

Quoting Shaberon above: "I really have no idea how to get anyone like that to actually listen."

I was just thinking that this 'christian zionists' situation is very much like the covidian cult, where it was totally pointless to try to have a fact based discussion with covidians, who were clinging to their face masks and covid jabs schedule with a death grip. Most of us just gave up trying, and kept our distances. The problem in both cases is that these masses of compliant hypnotized people is making it much easier for the cabal to implement its agenda.

[I am B]

I do not consider myself a Christian. I am not one. I accept (and even occasionally support it indirectly) as the religion common to my country (Spain) but don't practice it myself.

I believe there are two ways of looking at this "issue".

On the moral side, both Israel's genocidal practices, and Palestinians (&Co.) immoral ways and customs, makes me wish the Mediterranean had made its way east a few thousand kilometers.

But, on the geopolitical side, and seeing the problems we already have with Islamic immigration in Europe, makes me think that if it wasn't because of the "buffer" Israel creates in the border between the arab (mostly Islamic) world and the west, we would have the same, or at least a similar, situation somewhere else. Greece, Turkey, Italy or even Spain.

[Bruce G Charlton]

I would say that being a Christian (as I am), or not, has No direct relationship to geopolitical questions such as war; partly because people define these wars in such different ways. Of course some Christian Churches (or other groupings) have an official view of these wars, and those who regard being-a-Christian as obeying whatever their church tells them, will support whatever side they are told to support. But I am assuming that being a Christian is in spiritual-reality more than obedience to a particular church.

For instance, I think that many of those who have unconditional support of Ukraine and/or Israel do so because they frame the issue as starting on a particular date, with a particular event - which they believe they understand.

e.g. With Ukr they believe it began on 24 February 2022 with Russia invading Ukraine in order to begin European (world?) conquest. Nothing before that date has any moral relevance to such people; and they believe they know that Rus is an aggressive nation led by an evil totalitarian dictator.

e.g. With Isr they believe it began on 7 October 2023 with Hamas unilaterally (i.e. without any Isr collusion at all) invading Israel in order to kill as many as possible innocent people, and take hostages. These are the only relevant facts.

I happen to believe these Ukr and Isr framings both contain false assumptions, including incorrect framing of motivations; but if somebody does have these assumptions as to what happened and why - then they will frame what happened afterwards such that this seems to be consistent with their initial assumptions. New facts or other information, never disproves assumptions because the meanings or truth of "facts" are interpreted to fit the assumptions.

But being a Christian is (in essence, IMO) mainly about desiring eternal resurrected life in Heaven after biological-death, by following Jesus Christ. This perspective frames all of this mortal life, but not entailed at a level of detail that leads to a single moral view about any particular issues that transcends the assumptions which frame that issue.

What seems more important are the kind of assumptions listed above. I don't know how these can be changed by any factual or logical procedure, because so much depends on inferences about eth motivations of people or groups. We cannot know this directly by any publicly verifiable procedure, because we don't have direct and public access to the minds of others.

[Rizotto]

I would say that being a Christian (as I am), or not, has No direct relationship to geopolitical questions such as war; partly because people define these wars in such different ways. Of course some Christian Churches (or other groupings) have an official view of these wars, and those who regard being-a-Christian as obeying whatever their church tells them, will support whatever side they are told to support. But I am assuming that being a Christian is in spiritual-reality more than obedience to a particular church.

For instance, I think that many of those who have unconditional support of Ukraine and/or Israel do so because they frame the issue as starting on a particular date, with a particular event - which they believe they understand.

e.g. With Ukr they believe it began on 24 February 2022 with Russia invading Ukraine in order to begin European (world?) conquest. Nothing before that date has any moral relevance to such people; and they believe they know that Rus is an aggressive nation led by an evil totalitarian dictator.

e.g. With Isr they believe it began on 7 October 2023 with Hamas unilaterally (i.e. without any Isr collusion at all) invading Israel in order to kill as many as possible innocent people, and take hostages. These are the only relevant facts.

I happen to believe these Ukr and Isr framings both contain false assumptions, including incorrect framing of motivations; but if somebody does have these assumptions as to what happened and why - then they will frame what happened afterwards such that this seems to be consistent with their initial assumptions. New facts or other information, never disproves assumptions because the meanings or truth of "facts" are interpreted to fit the assumptions.

But being a Christian is (in essence, IMO) mainly about desiring eternal resurrected life in Heaven after biological-death, by following Jesus Christ. This perspective frames all of this mortal life, but not entailed at a level of detail that leads to a single moral view about any particular issues that transcends the assumptions which frame that issue.

What seems more important are the kind of assumptions listed above. I don't know how these can be changed by any factual or logical procedure, because so much depends on inferences about eth motivations of people or groups. We cannot know this directly by any publicly verifiable procedure, because we don't have direct and public access to the minds of others.

Well said! Personally, my take about the essence of the christian message is, 'treat others as you would like to be treated'. That sounds simple, but in real life it's complicated, i.e. the balance between taking care of one's needs and what is beneficial to the collective. Not necessarily contradictory, it's a matter of balance, and it takes work to figure it out.
Edited to add: By 'work' I mean it takes a lot of honest soul-searching.

[Rizotto]

In response to post #107 above: And what exactly caused muslims to flee their countries?

The reality is that zionist Israel itself instigated conflicts since 1948 in Palestine and surrounding countries, leading to mass displacement of Arabs, most of them of Muslim faith, but also many Christian Arabs.

For example, the Islamic State terror group was a creation of the CIA and Mossad, (in 2012 ?) to which they provided support, to destabilize Syria. Just another one of the CIA’s regime change operations. Russia is the one who rescued Syria after Bashar Al Assad asked for their help at the 11th hour.

But even that hasn’t stopped Israel from attacking Syria and Lebanon on many occasions for the past several years, i.e. since 2018, and even Iran. All part of zionist Israel’s plan for Greater Israel’, by using USA’s war machine. In fact, Israel depends completely on USA’s war machine. Which is why they instigate false flag operations like the 1967 attack on the USS Liberty, and 9/11.

Hence, the manipulation of American ‘christian zionists’ to support Israel, not matter how criminal their operations. This is so evil, there's no other word for it. These ‘christian zionists’ aren’t following the Christian faith. Their ambition is really about winning a quick ticket to heaven, aka 'the rapture’, and they believe that in order to achieve this they must support whatever Israel does. They told me so themselves.

General Wesley Clark - "We're Going to Take Out 7 Countries in 5 Years"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jWxKn-1S8ts

[rgray222]

I received a well-written and most intelligent message yesterday from a good friend, whom I very much respect, explaining that they felt obliged to support Israel in their current military campaign, come what may, because they were a Christian.

I won't offer my own personal views on this yet, but I did feel it was a very legitimate topic of discussion.

Besides all the Avalon members here who maintain a truly spiritual worldview, as best as they can every day, I'm aware that we have many members who count themselves as good Christians. Do please share what you may feel about this, whatever your spiritual outlook may be.

:flower:

I think most people would think I am completely off base when I say that Islam and Judaism have nothing to do with the current conflict in the Middle East. Most of the world believes religion is the main factor in the conflict. The ominous history of both religions dictates never-ending hate with the constant peril of war all waged under the counterfeit claim of religion. Both sides shove their religious banners in the sand tack their political emblems on their chests and set about killing each other. This is not religion, hate is not religion, killing each other is not religious. It is a fictional narrative (religion) that somehow makes those who engage in senseless killing (both sides) and those observing from a distance feel a bit better about the insanity and lunacy of war.

Mankind better start getting its act together or it will surely be in peril in another world war. Pretending that religion is at the heart of bloodshed when in fact it is hate is the driving force of this apocalyptic behavior. Religion went out the window ions ago and hate has firmly entrenched itself as the main motivator for killing each other.

No truly religious or thinking human should support this (or any other) never-ending war.

[Kryztian]

I think most people would think I am completely off base when I say that Islam and Judaism have nothing to do with the current conflict in the Middle East.

I would say you are 100% on target.

The way Zionist politicians and the CIA influenced media and others tell it: There is a war between Israelis and Arabs. That may that automatically translated into the minds of most Americans as: There is a war between Jews and Moslems. The way it should really be framed is: There is a war between Zionists and Palestinians.

The war started in the 1930s, before there were "Israelis", that is, citizens of nation that did not yet exist. Israel was created in 1948. Meanwhile "Palestine" had existed for centuries, even though it had been occupied by Ottoman Turks and then the British. It was clearly "Zionists" and not "Israelis" who were fighting the war for the first decade and a half.


Not all Israelis are fighting this war. There are many Christians and Moslems who are citizens of Israel, and yet they are not fighting. There are many Israeli Hasidim (a Jewish sect) who are against Zionism and also will not fight. And there are other Israeli Jews who for reasons of conscience do not support the war.


A large sector of the Israeli population are Arabs, so this dichotomy of "Arabs vs. Israelis" simply does not work. The majority of these Arabs are Moslem, but about a quarter of them are Christian and a few are even Jews.


The idea here is to pretend that there never were a Palestinian people, which is an outright lie.


The term Zionists refers not just to people who live in Israel and are claiming it as there land, but individuals people in other parts of the world who are waging the battle by funding the arms and corrupting other countries. For example, Joe Biden has called himself a Zionist and his administration has worked hard to finance Israel's genocide of Palestinians. Back in the 1930's, Meyer Lansky and other members of the "Super-Mob" worked to finance Zionist settlers with weapons, so they could terrorize and murder Palestinians and drive them off the land they were working to steal.



Another way to think about the conflict is that this is a war between the people who have been living in the area now defined as Israel and/or Palestine for many generations and those people who have come into the area in less than a century and are trying to evict the centuries old occupants. If you go back 3 generations or 10 or 20 generations and look at the ancestors of the people you have now fighting, those fighting for the Zionist state had their ancestors living far away from this land and mostly on other continents, and the people fighting for Palestine had most of their ancestors living in that area.

[shaberon]

But being a Christian is (in essence, IMO) mainly about desiring eternal resurrected life in Heaven after biological-death, by following Jesus Christ.


Would you say this has a corresponding state while living?


I will also respond in a way that I've done before. That is, I will attempt to present the view of Orthodoxy, which, in the Byzantine Empire, would have been influential on Palestine until the Fourth Crusade. This is when--differences between "churches" notwithstanding--Catholic Europe attacks the Orthodox Byzantines. This is why the Lebanese Maronites are actually Catholics who speak Arabic. A fairly serious hammering happened, and this is where most Russians will trace their "problems" with the west.

The mission of Orthodoxy is to create Heaven on Earth. It doesn't really come with instructions. It is not "a" government--such as the Byzantine Empire--and it is not "a form" of government--such as that kind of empire. So it would be doctrinally impotent to tell modern Turkey, hey, that's where we once ruled, and, you know, you've got to go back to wherever. It can't do anything like that, or forcibly convert a ruler, or suppress non-followers. It can only act on its own feet with the same equal rights and freedoms as anyone else.

It can do its best to be the most outstanding guide.

It lacks a self-definition of perfection or any kind of guarantee that because they are alive, that Heaven on Earth is really happening. Obviously it takes constant day-to-day evaluation. It is non-denominational, in that whatever benefits the Orthodox have, must be true for their fellow citizens.

I am not a member, but I consider them brothers and sisters because I have personally experienced their fellowship and their rite. It's considerably more serious than anything I have seen elsewhere. It validates a "good people" ticket for them as a demographic, in almost the same way we object to "labeling", this label actually works. That is why I represent and encourage it. As we can see, it doesn't make you a pacifist. It certainly can't support Israel, to say the least.

[shaberon]

But, on the geopolitical side, and seeing the problems we already have with Islamic immigration in Europe, makes me think that if it wasn't because of the "buffer" Israel creates in the border between the arab (mostly Islamic) world and the west, we would have the same, or at least a similar, situation somewhere else. Greece, Turkey, Italy or even Spain.


This has several various ways of happening. One has been called "Harvest of Empire", such as why there are many Algerians in France. Former colony = the connection and pathway for the colonized to emigrate.

A smaller way is some obscure political favor, such as why Norwegian fish canneries are staffed by Tunisians.

Waves of refugees being a third way.


This one can be drastic, such as the Ukrainians and the PM of Denmark (https://sputnikglobe.com/20240924/west-shooting-selves-in-foot-with-militarism-economic-policy-driving-mass-migration-1120265827.html):


“She is shooting herself in the foot,” Lazare said of Frederiksen’s support for the Ukraine proxy war. “She is supporting a war which generates refugees who, when they finally make their way to Denmark, are angering growing numbers of citizens who are afraid of what the influx means and fueling the rise of the ultra-right. This is amazingly foolish on her part, but yet she is doing it. She's like an automaton who's marching off the edge of a cliff.”


As of now, there is a great chance of receiving waves of Israeli refugees. I am not sure whose way they may have impeded previously. Does this mean we will see fights between Israelis and Tunisians in Norway? It sounds easy.

Hungary seems to be applying an answer--no, you can't come in. We will accept only a tiny, controlled amount of immigration. Apparently this is controversial.

[Bruce G Charlton]

@Shaberon - I know a bit about Eastern Orthodoxy, and some years ago started the process of joining the church. But I nowadays regard all mainstream/ major Western Christian churches as on the wrong side of the spiritual war - as was revealed in 2020, when they willingly/ eagerly closed themselves and ceased all sacraments (including funerals).

The only principled way to be a Christian now is from one's own inner discernment and the guidance of the Holy Ghost - churches are secondary.

I speak as a Westerner , but this may not, probably does not, apply to Russia and some other Orthodox nations - their peoples may have a different destiny from us in the West - one based on a resurgent Orthodoxy.

As for Heaven on earth - I agree we can experience this partly or in the short term, and this knowing Heaven (and wanting it) enables us to make the eternal choice of Heaven, after death.

[161803398]

I have watched what is going on in Palestine almost every day for an entire year. There is no human being who could support that unless they are uninformed or delusional. I understand the Zionists are attempting to claim Jews are a nationality rather than a religion (because they often aren't religious). I think to understand Judaism, you might start here with this man:
QKRSiqBWqNM

Website is: https://www.committinghighreason.com/

[shaberon]

The only principled way to be a Christian now is from one's own inner discernment and the guidance of the Holy Ghost - churches are secondary.

I speak as a Westerner , but this may not, probably does not, apply to Russia and some other Orthodox nations - their peoples may have a different destiny from us in the West - one based on a resurgent Orthodoxy.



That enters my workspace.

The main issues in the early congregations were not Christology, it was Pneumatology.

This is really the fundamental split:

Orthodoxy and i. e. prior Christianity says that the Spirit proceeds from the Father.

Rome revised this and says that the Spirit proceeds from the Father and from the Son. This is Papal decree, not any kind of discussion with the greater congregation.

Well, the thing is, that Orthodox training, Hesychasm, is already entirely devoted to Spirit, It is an experience they attempt to have while living.

The religious and spiritual centre of the Eastern Orthodox Church for nearly one thousand years:

Hagia Sophia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hagia_Sophia)

...the feminine personification of divine wisdom as Holy Wisdom (Ἁγία Σοφία; Hagía Sophía)...


raises the issue of Jesus having wisdom, as one meaning, and that the Holy Spirit is female, possibly Theotokos, is somewhat of a Russian mystical trend, rather than "doctrine", also picked up by the English Philadelphians. Sophia is not a "Greek goddess" and is equivalently present in Gnosticism in a similar way. Or, Sofia, Bulgaria, 2009:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/02/Statue_of_Sveta_Sofia.jpg/480px-Statue_of_Sveta_Sofia.jpg




Roughly put, at the apex of Hesychasm:


The uncreated light that the hesychast experiences is identified with the Holy Spirit. Experiences of the uncreated light are allied to the 'acquisition of the Holy Spirit'...


When they do this, officially, on paper, Holy Spirit is "He"; my personal response is that she is Sophia. Because I am not quite in agreement with some of the Orthodox theology, I can't pretend to join. However, if they have learned to practice the above, I would respect that.

In further response, I would say, well, it can only be the same Spirit that is possibly achieved in other ways. The point is they have this teaching that leads to a profound transformation of experience. And it is not known in the west.

It's just a little bit different from the way I do it. I can understand this as a spiritual effort, which is supposed to be in league with a harmonious social order. It is not inconceivable that, if I had been born in an Orthodox country, I might simply be doing that. My system is technically incompatible, while remaining socially harmonious. On a broad, superficial level, I can't tell any difference. I think all we are looking for is equal rights to do slightly technically different ways to attain the Spirit.

Because Hesychasm is talking about a very passive meditation, that is how I understand it, not "spirit" slapped onto any charismatic endeavor of one's choosing. Nor belief in the efficacy of prayer based just on some words.

[Mike Gorman]

Really the central teaching of Jesus Christ is to embrace love, to treat one another as we would like to be treated, the reward in Heaven is of course an incentive but we should not be misled by this: the true emphasis is about manifesting the nature of God in human life, not seeking a free pass into the pearly gates. Israel is entitled to defend its people. but this does not give them the automatic right to kill civilians en masse in the process: surely this is a direct contradiction of their own moral justification? I think it is correct that religion is obscuring the crucial issues in play here: we are witnessing mass slaughter and a huge displacement of an entire community in the name of a state that was installed after the WWII disaster, there are obviously too many other elements at work, to offer a concise account It is clear that chaos, and violence is escalating throughout this region, it is escalating internationally. If we are speaking about Christianity, specifically, then we should be supporting the cause of Peace above all other concerns - call me naive if you like.

[161803398]

Israelism Screening and Discussion with Gabor Maté, Naomi Klein, and Simone Zimmerman at Simon Fraser University TphWlTQFkWE

[161803398]

Naomi Klein on false idols starts at 3.20 U75KcMUjMyI

[shaberon]

Really the central teaching of Jesus Christ is to embrace love, to treat one another as we would like to be treated...


On this aspect, is it thought he said anything specifically about Jews? Or the kingdom of Judea?

The only difference that I am aware of is relatively minor. The way you just put that is already taught in the Torah. I have heard that the minor addendum from Jesus is to extend it to include "your enemies".

I have not analyzed it; given the subject, does anyone know his specific context for "Jew" or "enemy"?

[Faylin]

honestly, im a firm beliver in self defense. i think it's part of the grand design. i also belive for there to be war one must be good and one must be bad, to be more specific, one is right and one is wrong.

I don't think ocupation of space is worthy of one being punished by persciution and death. I think if we are going to advance to have relations with aliens and time travelers were going to have to deal with people showing up where they aren't wanted without being put to death or hated. That applys to linear occupation of space as well, by inhabitants of the same spehere. To suggest otherwise is tyranical.

I hope this clears things up for you all and puts things into perspective for those of you warhungry.... no shame, i get there sometimes too :P

[Rizotto]

Sorry Faylin, but I'm not clear at all about what you are trying to say. In reality, there's at least 100,000 civilians in Palestine and Lebanon whose lands are being stolen, who have been killed, injured, imprisoned and tortured by zionist Israelis, who refuse a ceasefire. These Palestinian and Lebanese civilians have ancestry on those lands dating back thousands of years. Zionists are newcomers. Are you saying that Palestinians and Lebanese should just allow Israelis to steal their lands and kill them?

[Richter]

I keep on wondering how it is possible that Israel can blow up Hezbollah leaders in Tehran and plant thousands of exploding pagers, but did not see the attack of October 7 , 2023 coming.

We’re talking about at least 150-200 Hamas ‘soldiers’ that must have had contact with each other about tactics, etc. before they crossed the border.

And we are to believe that they kept this whole operation100% secret and not a single piece of relevant information has ever reached Mossad.

Not even a hint.

Curious, to say the least.

Of course it would turn the whole story upside down and put Israel's retaliation war in Gaza in a totally different and rather macabre perspective.

The oppressed have become the oppressor.

[161803398]

The oppressed have become the oppressor.

In light of what has happened since 1948, I think you don't have the whole picture. But if October 7 is decisive for you, in spite of the entire picture since 1948, and everything that has happened in Palestine over the last year here you go: Li164lMRR48

As if it wasn't pretty clear from the start.

[Richter]

The oppressed have become the oppressor.

In light of what has happened since 1948, I think you don't have the whole picture.

I think I have a pretty good picture for as far that's actually even possible because this is such a complicated problem that it's easy to lose oversight.

I also have friends in Israel who keep me posted every now and then.

(And) 'Grasshopper, you should not think for others.'

:cheers:

[161803398]

Hannibal directive: https://x.com/i/status/1810675316261838968

https://x.com/i/status/1810675316261838968

[161803398]

(And) 'Grasshopper, you should not think for others.' Wasn't trying to think for you. I was not sure what you were saying about the "whole story" being turned upside down. The whole story isn't Oct 7. I have friends in Palestine and Israeli friends and evangelical Christian friends in Canada....which doesn't matter because people, being people, have different points of view wherever they live. I believe I understand the problem in some depth, if not in all details.

[161803398]

Deleted because somehow duplicated (see post below).

[161803398]

I have not analyzed it; given the subject, does anyone know his specific context for "Jew" or "enemy"?

Having quit Sunday school when I was 8 because I learned that they were always talking about some place that was "thousands of miles away" and things that happened "thousands of years ago" I concluded that they have nothing to say to me. So I am not an expert on the Bible. However, I did read the new testatment later on because I was interested in what Jesus actually said and my understanding is that Jesus had tried to change the religion which is where we got Christianity. Of course, some of the Christians thereafter went about acting like ISIS but that is another story. Anyway I got this from Quora:

"Originally Answered: Did God say “love your enemies”?
here are just a few:

Matthew 5:44

But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,

Matthew 5:43-48

“You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven. For he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? And if you greet only your brothers, what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same? ...

Romans 12:14

Bless those who persecute you; bless and do not curse them.

Romans 12:20

To the contrary, “if your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink; for by so doing you will heap burning coals on his head.”

Luke 23:34

And Jesus said, “Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do.” And they cast lots to divide his garments.

Luke 6:27-28

“But I say to you who hear, Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who abuse you.

Luke 6:35

But love your enemies, and do good, and lend, expecting nothing in return, and your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High, for he is kind to the ungrateful and the evil.

1 Peter 3:9

Do not repay evil for evil or reviling for reviling, but on the contrary, bless, for to this you were called, that you may obtain a blessing.

1 Corinthians 13:4-8

Love is patient and kind; love does not envy or boast; it is not arrogant or rude. It does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful; it does not rejoice at wrongdoing, but rejoices with the truth. Love bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. Love never ends. As for prophecies, they will pass away; as for tongues, they will cease; as for knowledge, it will pass away.

Acts 7:60

And falling to his knees he cried out with a loud voice, “Lord, do not hold this sin against them.” And when he had said this, he fell asleep.

Luke 6:27-36

“But I say to you who hear, Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who abuse you. To one who strikes you on the cheek, offer the other also, and from one who takes away your cloak do not withhold your tunic either. Give to everyone who begs from you, and from one who takes away your goods do not demand them back. And as you wish that others would do to you, do so to them. ...

Proverbs 25:21-22

If your enemy is hungry, give him bread to eat, and if he is thirsty, give him water to drink, for you will heap burning coals on his head, and the Lord will reward you.

1 John 4:7

Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from God, and whoever loves has been born of God and knows God.

Romans 12:14-21

Bless those who persecute you; bless and do not curse them. Rejoice with those who rejoice, weep with those who weep. Live in harmony with one another. Do not be haughty, but associate with the lowly. Never be wise in your own sight. Repay no one evil for evil, but give thought to do what is honorable in the sight of all. If possible, so far as it depends on you, live peaceably with all. ...

So why does God torture His for all eternity in brimstone and fire ?

He does not

God is sovereign and creator of all things. He could make anything they way He wants. He is creating man to be overcomers of evil,sin and death.

Man must experience evil to overcome it. Man is made sin and death .Man overcomes sin through Christ living in him."

My thoughts are this is good advice because hatred and all the emotions that come with it will kill you (eventually) as well as other people. Genocide is suicide.

[shaberon]

I keep on wondering how it is possible that Israel can blow up Hezbollah leaders in Tehran and plant thousands of exploding pagers, but did not see the attack of October 7 , 2023 coming.


As a clue, I'm willing to go with the resignation of Yossi Sariel, 8200 chief, saying they failed to react to intelligence due to prevailing notions.


My guess is that was the assumption they would blow through Hamas in two weeks.



Now, if it is pretty easy to find "love your enemy" references in the New Testament, this is where we find diverging ways of applying it, which is where we ask...what is Christianity...and as it arises in the Roman sphere, this is in the same context as the rise of Roman Oligarchy. I would suggest Jesus is more like Caesar, not oligarchy.

At least temporarily, the other dioceses probably didn't know much about the independent ways of Rome or who its benefactors were. Nominally, Rome and the Orthodox are both Nicene. As I have personally learned it from Orthodoxy, there is this feeling, because you have this belief that a Jew is committing the worst possible sin which is to reject the savior. Like he's making a voluntary choice to go to hell. The conundrum is that it is not a problem for God to love him the same way as he loves you--can you be like this?

And so, ideally, in Heaven on Earth, you aren't allowed to make any laws that segregate or oppress him. In all likelihood, there were usually attempts to charge them higher tax, but that's about as far as it went. And they seemed to do fine around North Africa and Asia Minor.

In Roman areas, we *do* find standard legal implementations to form ghettoes and restrict their professions. This becomes typical. They are materially oppressed to a noticeable degree, but these same lawmakers are the ones who allow them to charge usury. It sounds like a process of "making enemies" where there might otherwise be none.

It is not until later times that those places who "protest" the church of Rome by newly translating the Bible, do so in a way with interpreters who open the door for Zionism.

The Pope contradicts the Nicene Council by installing his personal view of the Spirit. The Protestants contradict the Nicene Council by granting favoritism to the Jews. At that point, we have a contrived social conflict that is not present elsewhere. If they have *another* conflict with Islam, I have no idea how Christianity could possibly take sides on that, although it should compel you to an honest view on genocidal war crimes. As far as I can tell, it cannot support Zionism to begin with, but should accuse it.

[161803398]

I am tired of the OOPS excuse. The more they get away with it the more they do it.
But can you tell me about this?:
It is not until later times that those places who "protest" the church of Rome by newly translating the Bible, do so in a way with interpreters who open the door for Zionism.

[arjunaloka_official]

Should Christians support Israeli military action?

I first suggest abstracting it to remove at least some of the emotions. So we get:


Should Christians support military action?

The answer to this question is quite simple: No.

The reason for this is:
- You shall honor life (Ten Commandments)
- You shall love your neighbor as yourself (Golden Rule)
- If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn the other one to him as well (Sermon on the Mount)

Turning the other cheek is ultimately a karmic consideration. Unfortunately, when you see violence, it is deserved - because if it were not deserved, it could not happen. This is very hard for many people to swallow. This does not mean that you should not resist violence. However, it does mean that you should not try to fight fire with fire (or violence with violence). Your resistance to violence should be peaceful. Because if you add violence, everything will get worse. At worst, it means that you must accept violence against yourself - like Jesus did. Jesus did not fight against the Roman Empire by using violence, because by killing the murderers, you become the murderer yourself and thus the thing you were trying to avoid. I am fully aware that this sets the bar very high - on Jesus' level. So I understand anyone who chooses self-defense in the face of violence. However, Jesus would not, I believe, choose violence.

How did Jesus get into such a difficult situation? Most of us enter this reality due to karmic debt. But Jesus entered our reality through a virgin birth – that is, without karma, only through his free will to teach us.

As Jesus said:
"I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."

[shaberon]

I am tired of the OOPS excuse. The more they get away with it the more they do it.
But can you tell me about this?:
It is not until later times that those places who "protest" the church of Rome by newly translating the Bible, do so in a way with interpreters who open the door for Zionism.




Naturally.

There were a few "English Bibles" by Tyndale and Wycliffe that were not very big or in circulation, i. e. pre-printing press.


In the 1500s you get the Protestant Reformation by Calvin and Luther primarily. So the major, printed effort is in the time of their successors.


This is self-encrypted on a page called Christian Zionism (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Zionism):


Puritans and Presbyterians spent some time in Geneva in the 1560s under Calvin's successor Theodore Beza and developed a translation of the Bible called the Geneva Bible, which contained footnotes in reference to the Book of Romans, specifically claiming that the Jews would be converted to Christianity in the end times and reorientating attention to Palestine as a central theatre. This view came to be taken up strongly by English Puritans, Lowland Scots Presbyterians, and even some Continental Protestants.


On Beza's page, nothing is really expressed about this. He does however write a book which is defining religion as the exact opposite of Dharma:


Concerning the Rights of Rulers Over Their Subjects and the Duty Of Subjects Towards Their Rulers


Now, you see what happened. It was the same Latin Bible, until this printed translation for the Protestants, which slips radicalism into a footnote.

This only multiplies as you go through the King James Bible, and then around the 1890s there is the "Scofield Concordance" which makes all these zionist remarks easy to find.

The problem was that King James did not like the insinuation of Israel as more powerful than Britain. In terms of the King James Bible (https://founders.org/articles/the-geneva-bible-and-its-influence-on-the-king-james-bible/):


It pioneered several innovations in content and translation. For example, it used the word “church” when rendering the Greek ekklesia instead of Tyndale’s and Coverdale’s “congregation.”


It moved "Acts" from the end to the middle, and has a few stock ideas such as:


Antichrist as the Pope



as for it becoming standard in England:


Puritans with such hopes were seriously disappointed when King James I rejected the GB altogether. In his estimate, the GB was the worst on the market, as he made clear at the Hampton Court Conference in 1604 (“I think that of all, that of Geneva is the worst.”). Of course, his comments were not directed towards the translation as they were towards the marginal annotations. According to King James I, he saw these notes as “very partial, untrue, seditious, and savoring too much of dangerous and traitorous conceits.”


And between 1642 and 1715 five or more editions of the KJV used the Geneva annotations!


King James's objection was along the lines of the two possible authorities:


Bishops <--> republicanism


Geneva was a republic; the suspicion is obvious.

The annotations challenged the “divine right of kings,” a doctrine advocated by King James.


But on a popular level:


“England was a Protestant nation, and the Geneva Bible was its sacred book.”


Then, as we see, the Stuarts were deposed by Oliver Cromwell. He is the first known head of state to plan on using the Jewish diaspora for hegemony, and all British governments have carried this policy ever since.

The Geneva Bible’s notes on Romans 11:25 and 11:28 jump out as being light years ahead of their time with regard to the future prophesied for the Jewish people.

And it turns out this is mostly promulgated by the followers of John Knox.


What am I supposed to say about Beza and the Puritans? They're not Apostles??

There are a million thousand and two other details after that, but, it is recognizable if someone just sticks something in a Bible and a king reacts vehemently, this does not happen in Orthodoxy. Instead, Protestantism has to fight the Catholics. Since then, we have countries that are almost exclusively existentially defined by this argument, and in the rest of the world, there is simply no such thing.

[161803398]

I avoided learning about most of this finding it disgusting. I do know about the printing press and Luther. I was born a natural animist, my mother being the descendant of Vikings from Jamtland, formerly a Viking Republic. My father was Northern Irish/Scots from a sometimes Church of ireland and sometimes Methodist family but a natural Republican who had no interest in religion although a spiritual person. My Scottish aunt by marriage suggested a Prebysterian Sunday school as I was a spiritual person and I was excited about it because I thought I would learn about God. But all they talked about was war.....to children, my age. This prompted my question: Where is this place we are always talking about? Answer: "Oh, it's thousands of miles away." When? "thousands of years ago" I thought these people were out of their minds.

[shaberon]

But all they talked about was war.....to children, my age. This prompted my question: Where is this place we are always talking about?


When I first heard of Sunday School, I had a meltdown. That's all they had to say was that such a school existed, and I ran and hid in a corner. It startled my natural animism.

Now, it seems to me, I get the rebound from millions of adults who were nursed on "Israel and war". Apparently these brains have been re-wired since infancy? Is it possible to ever see clearly after this trauma??


Well, transfer that same way of thinking to the next big one. You will again find around the 1700s, it is these British theologians who invent the phrase "Gog and Magog", and decide it must apply to the modern countries, Germany and Russia. Whatever Ezekiel was talking about--probably Baal Zaphon--was simply to his near north. Similarly why would you think John of Patmos was talking about anything other than his neighboring region and its near future??

The same obsession tracks through "Israelism", the belief that Europeans or especially the English are the remnants of the Lost Tribes.

So you get this bloodline devotion mixed with a type of drifting genocide.

Well, if I can agree with Luther at least to the extent that something was probably wrong with what the Catholics were doing, my question would be why you do not return to the religion of Jerusalem? Why would we take someone's interpretive footnotes and invent such a self-centered scheme??

Overall, I do not think there is any reason that ancient people remember an event from thousands of years ago, whether a meteor, prophet, etc., and their vision of the future is not thousands of years and thousands of miles away. That sounds like a complete contradiction to any "normal" way of life. The natural average implies you would learn from your grandfather, and teach to your grandson. I'm not sure human beings can successfully apply energy outside of that scope. That changes when you can print random ideas, instead of your mouth and brain tracking day-to-day existence and its priorities. If this was a lot harder with primitive technology, then, it seems to me you would be *less* interested in the grandiose.


All of those tweaks can be revealed, starting from the Romans footnote, and I can only imagine the children's version must be highly conducive to complicity.

[Kryztian]

But all they talked about was war.....to children, my age. This prompted my question: Where is this place we are always talking about?


When I first heard of Sunday School, I had a meltdown. That's all they had to say was that such a school existed, and I ran and hid in a corner. It startled my natural animism.

Now, it seems to me, I get the rebound from millions of adults who were nursed on "Israel and war". Apparently these brains have been re-wired since infancy? Is it possible to ever see clearly after this trauma??


Well, transfer that same way of thinking to the next big one. You will again find around the 1700s, it is these British theologians who invent the phrase "Gog and Magog", and decide it must apply to the modern countries, Germany and Russia. Whatever Ezekiel was talking about--probably Baal Zaphon--was simply to his near north. Similarly why would you think John of Patmos was talking about anything other than his neighboring region and its near future??



Kim Iversen reviews the "Gog and Magog" prophesies for Ezekiel and how they are influencing our politicians. She also looks back at the original prophesy text and does some logical analysis of the parties involved in the prophecy and asks who they could be and concludes that the evil nations of Gog and Magog that God will come to destroy are probably the U.S.A and Israel! That is, if you believe in prophesy and I don't think Kim really does.

SVB4rwHIbBo