Why People Won't Admit When They're Wrong

[Mike]

I was moved to start this thread after reading this Dostoevsky quote in another thread posted by mountainjim.

"Above all, don't lie to yourself. The man who lies to himself and listens to his own lie comes to a point that he cannot distinguish the truth within him, or around him, and so loses all respect for himself and for others. And having no respect he ceases to love."

When considering the question posed - Why people won't admit when they're wrong - some pretty simple reasons emerge: pride, embarrassment, social ostracization are a few.

But there are gradations to these things, and whether one can accept that they've been wrong about something or not often depends on how long they've been wrong and just how invested they are in their wrongness.

An example: A parent who has affirmed their child's "gender transition" and put them on harmful drugs and/or consented to top/bottom surgery. Once a parent is that committed, there's no going back, because to go back would be to accept that they were complicit in the destruction of their child's life once it all goes to sh!t...so in order to avoid that mental and emotional trauma they will continually double down on the lie. They have to; they've come too far and are too invested now. When the child begins falling apart, they'll remain willfully blind to the true reasons and blame "transphobia" or some such thing.

Another example: Rob Reiner, American actor and director, was the example given by mountainjim. Reiner is apparently leaving the country now in protest of Trump's election. I think he's really leaving the country to preserve his delusions and what he believes is his sanity. He's been telling the same lies about Trump as everyone else for years and years; he's too invested now to walk it all back. He has to double down. Leaving the country might be the only way he can continue living this lie.

In both examples given, the ideological delusions aren't separated from the individual's identity. To forfeit the faulty ideas would be to forfeit their entire identity. That's an existential crisis very few are able to grapple with.

And also, their families and social circles are largely built on similarly minded people. To admit ideological errors and to aim to correct them would likely not only result in an identity crisis, but it would also likely mean losing friends and family.

Hard decisions need to be made in these situations. To keep doubling down on the delusions means to keep running from your conscience, which means journeying even further into madness in order to elude it. To accept one is wrong, on the other hand, means to potentially lose everything in terms of friends, family, identity etc. Either choice can result in madness, but only one keeps the possibility of sanity alive.

There's one other reason people won't admit they're wrong, particularly if they've been wrong a long time. Like anything else anyone is invested in over time, people expect a return on it..whether it's a financial investment or a romantic relationship. We've all known people who have stayed in relationships far longer than they should have because they've invested so much time in them that they simply can't bear the thought of it not working out somehow. I've done that too. It's no different with ideology.

People often respond to embarrassment and wounded pride with anger. I've seen this in traffic on a small scale many times, i.e. when someone cuts you off and nearly causes an accident..and then they give you the finger as they drive by LOL. The mind just glitches out when confronted with this type of embarrassment and the default reaction is anger. And I think this explains a lot of the meltdowns we're seeing now.

I make fun of these woke people alot, but I'll admit here to understanding them so well because I've been similarly ideologically stubborn myself..and suffered the same triggers and displayed the same embarrassment/anger as they're displaying now. This post is way too long, so I'll offer some examples in my next one...

[SilentFeathers]

What we've witness over the last several years is a delusional ideology that has been taught on a large scale to many people. Many (myself included) have refused to accept or participate in this backwards indoctrination program.

This "western form of radical ideologies" being indoctrinated in to so many is really not much different than a person who was taught that it's a good thing to willfully and happily put on an explosive vest and blowing themselves up in a cafe full of strangers (non-believers).

It's very cult like; these "believers" in this grand delusional religion can be easily coaxed to "double down" by their God, the media.

All these people losing their minds on tic toc etc., are just parroting the same talking points the MSM has been spewing for a decade now.

We're lucking the MSM hasn't been telling these folks that they need to put the vest on and head to large gatherings, many are so far gone they would happily do it......

[Vangelo]

I was moved to start this thread after reading this Dostoevsky quote in another thread posted by mountainjim.

[I]"Above all, don't lie to yourself. The man who lies to himself and listens to his own lie comes to a point that he cannot distinguish the truth within him, or around him, and so loses all respect for himself and for others. And having no respect he ceases to love."
...

In both examples given, the ideological delusions aren't separated from the individual's identity. To forfeit the faulty ideas would be to forfeit their entire identity. That's an existential crisis very few are able to grapple with.

And also, their families and social circles are largely built on similarly minded people. To admit ideological errors and to aim to correct them would likely not only result in an identity crisis, but it would also likely mean losing friends and family.

Hard decisions need to be made in these situations. To keep doubling down on the delusions means to keep running from your conscience, which means journeying even further into madness in order to elude it. To accept one is wrong, on the other hand, means to potentially lose everything in terms of friends, family, identity etc. Either choice can result in madness, but only one keeps the possibility of sanity alive.
...
Thank you Mike for framing this question for us to ponder. I don't want to sidetrack your thread but I can't help but see this in terms of Shadow work as defined by Carl Jung. Given my experiences integrating my shadows, I would argue that you are describing the core activity of shadow work i.e. (quoting you) shadow work requires you "to forfeit (your) their entire identity." And I wholeheartedly agree it is "an existential crisis very few are able to grapple with."

Those of us who have done shadow work know that you must first define/describe your true identity; not what you believe or want your identity to be, but the real identity that incorporates your failings (i.e. recognize that you are indeed the type of person who would do that wrong thing). Then you must learn to love that part of you that believes/does the wrong things. Healing, peace and sanity can only occur when you are able to honestly love that portion of yourself that caused you to believe/do that failing (I use the phrase 'integrate your shadow' to describe this).

This process is unbelievably painful and destabilizing and few people are able and willing to do it. However, if my experiences are representative, I will state unequivocally that it is the most empowering and freeing thing I have ever done (and continue to do). It has allowed me to live a more peaceful, purposeful, and mindful life.

[thepainterdoug]

Hi Mike

I recently started a thread on Ego Tribe and team etc. I appreciate you adding to this examination. it is amazing, but being right, being correct seems more important than being integral honorable or Happy. Werner Erhardt would ask in his EST seminars, do you want to be right or do you want to be happy?

I remember my Mom clinging to rehearsed talking point about the Catholic Church. I understand her sadness and delusion when the pedo stuff got exposed.

you are giving up a great deal when you say or see you are wrong because it invalidates all the previous 20 years of lectures and accusations you gave others and that you so dearly invested in. You built your identity in all this. This has now become you!

I HAVE NOT RUBBED THE TRUMP WIN IN ANYONES FACE. I always tell people I was all my adult life a Democrat when the party stood for peace, love, anti war, live and let live . We were inclusive, even making friends with and embracing the cops etc But all this has changed, the thieves and corrupt criminals found a place to con us all.

Come on folks, its not the party that matters, its the reality of what is represents and stands for. Look at all the so called Democrats, including D J Trump, that have read the play and jumped ship! They Dems went toooooo far. Too fringe and very anti American

THIS IDENTY WITH YOUR PARTY STUFF HAS GOT TO END. Its BS. , ITS EGO, TRIBE, TEAM.

As it stands now, I hope they are destroyed for the next 20 years. And I hope these phonies like Rob (gated community) Reiner make good on their promises and get out of dodge, or better yet self ignite, just do it on pay purview so we can make some money on it for the poor victims of Lahaina , N Carolina and all the rest of our good US citizens who got screwed by this "inclusive" CON ARTIST party of criminals.

[rgray222]

We have all dealt with people who never want to accept the truth even when they are confronted with a mountain of evidence that refutes their beliefs. This behavior is now so widespread because it has moved into the political arena in a huge way. There are several reasons for this.

Colleges and universities have indoctrinated young minds and professors have trained their fragile students that debate and discussion are not an option. They have a take-no-prisoners mentality.
Once these fragile students graduate with their fragile egos they will happily stick their heads in the sand and joyfully live in denial. People with fragile egos appear more afraid of the truth.
Any belief formed without discussion or debate can easily become an ideology. Ideology will trump (pun intended) truth every time. What I mean by this is that people will almost always believe the ideology they have bought into before they will believe the truth. (see video)
The mainstream media no longer reports news. Everything and I mean everything (weather, style, fashion, food, design, education etc) all has a political slant. Over time people have invested too much in their self-indoctrination programming to accept anything that even resembles the truth. Fortunately, this is changing as legacy media companies are forced to radically change or die.
Millions of people are so heavily invested in the mainstream media propaganda that these so-called publishers are peddling that they will never accept the truth.


Here is a short video that shows the CEO of NPR talking about the "truth", she says what the other media companies have been thinking for years. You only need to watch the first two or three minutes to get the picture.


AtRX0c1qy3U

[SilentFeathers]

As it stands now, I hope they are destroyed for the next 20 years. And I hope these phonies like Rob (gated community) Reiner make good on their promises and get out of dodge, or better yet self ignite, just do it on pay purview so we can make some money on it for the poor victims of Lahaina , N Carolina and all the rest of our good US citizens who got screwed by this "inclusive" CON ARTIST party of criminals.

I agree, they can all rot in hell as far as I'm concerned.

I have no sympathy nor am I able to forgive those that have done so much damage and have no remorse and are right at this moment devising new methods of pain and suffering that they can inflict on others that don't think the way they do. Personally, I do NOT hate these people, I just simply do not want them anywhere near me or my loved ones. They are a danger and an enemy to everything I value in life.

Sadly this isn't over with yet. Look at the interference they pulled on Trumps last time in office, they are going to do that all over again, and likely much worse.

This was not some minor glitch in the matrix that caused a few people a little pain and discomfort. This was massive and caused millions to suffer, many in extreme ways, and in my opinion, caused many to be murdered. (Covid atrocities is a good example). Not to mention all the children and young adults who have been indoctrinated into a life of wickedness, hatred, loneliness, sexual mutilation, sterilization, etc. This has been truly a destructive campaign of hate, pain, suffering, and even death. I could go on and on and on and on!!!!!

Not being limited to just the United States, this diabolical agenda and these evil ideologies have infected the whole of western civilization. So much damage has been done, nations are continuing to be destroyed because of this. It is not over.

As I've said for many weeks now, prepare for hard times....

[thepainterdoug]

Silent Feathers/ well said. The extensive damage done , still going on now and for years to come world wide cannot be quantified

with these godless people, kindness and forgiveness is seen as the mark of a loser, and to be defeated

[shaberon]

This is more insight on what, to me, are Imaginary people.

The main difference between me and them, is, a long time ago, when I was maybe seven or eight, I realized I was wrong about something. And that seemed to keep happening. The majority of things I have looked into and tried to adopt, turned out to be wrong, so I simmered and churned for many years. That's why I have no grip on this "identity" stuff, and have the feeling that people like to charm themselves with groundless words.

I've been forced to oppose it, or, on the receiving end of things I dislike, may times, and it seems like in most cases, those people refuse to ask the questions in the first place.

In other words, if there is no plausible argument that justifies foreign-induced Palestinian misery, then, the question of its existence or whether that is wrong, is not allowed.

In those cases where I have publicly exposed the vapidity of a person, all I remember is they go silent and fade away. They just stop.

The only category of exceptions I can come up with, are a handful of Orthodox converts.

That's why I see this as a flock of sheep, afraid to go through what I did as a kid, which, yes, sometimes I felt awkward or embarrassed and there have been things that I said that I actually apologized for. Those were "painful growing lessons" that I thought were a trait of maturity. Comparatively, the others seem very little developed from the time they learned to talk.

[SilentFeathers]

kindness and forgiveness is seen as the mark of a loser, and to be defeated

This is why they won't admit they are wrong, those that know that they are wrong that is, they are banking on this weakness called "kindness and forgiveness". All the rest that won't admit they are wrong actually believe they are right even though they can't explain or understand why. In my opinion they exist in an absolute state of fear, hate and anger is a symptom of their fear and to admit they could even slightly be wrong would cause them to betray themselves and the other members of their cult.

We're likely to see a huge increase in suicides if these delusional people are somehow naturally forced to admit their wrong....broken brains will become shattered minds. All that hate and anger being projected on to others will be turned inward in a most severe way.

What a lot of people don't understand is that this is the type of enemy that can not be reasoned with. Those at the highest levels of power are absolute with their evil intentions. There's only a very few in the midst of the masses that are capable of "rehabilitation" so to speak.

Social engineering on a demonic level. It will take a generation to heal this if it isn't to far gone already.....

[dim]

"No one ever thinks is the evil one"

Part of the operating system mechanism directives of the human body/mind apparatus that considers this possibility as too debilitating for its survival. And too hard wired inside the dna for the neo-cortex to do anything about it. As with most of the basic survival instincts, we are helpless before them.

Blind Spot Bias (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bias_blind_spot)
illusory superiority (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illusory_superiority)

[Casey Claar]

Regarding the title of this thread specifically, the conversation is of its greatest benefit only when applied to ourself. More principally to the admission of being wrong, is the admission that "I do not know." I almost began a thread weeks back, I was going to title it : "The truest thing anyone can say — I do not know". <-- THIS is the real difficulty we face, almost no-one is able to make this central admission, to confront this realization. I will say this, however, in its regard- it is with certainty the truest thing each and every one of us can say, and the truth really does have the capacity to set us free. I experience this is rare, precious moments.

[Mike]

Regarding the title of this thread specifically, the conversation is of its greatest benefit only when applied to ourself

Agree entirely. So I'll offer up some personal examples, as promised..

There are many to choose from, but one that took place on this very forum stands out.

This was in 2016, during the election season. At this time I was very green politically. I knew almost nothing. I had no dog in the fight, and wasn't terribly invested in the election either way...or so I thought.

But I'll admit to favoring Hillary Clinton a little. I knew, sort of vaguely, all the horrific things she'd been accused of on the forum and various other alt-media spaces, but to me she represented predictability and security. Trump was a total wildcard, and that put some fear in me, I'll admit.

Back then, every time one turned on the news he was being accused - like clockwork - of being xenophobic, racist, and bigoted. I was imbibing all this, willingly, because it justified my fear of him being elected. I knew nothing about his proposed policies - nothing - but I had a pretty strong emotion of fear, and now very conveniently some reasons to account for it should I find myself in any kind of debate/dialogue. I didn't even know what the word "xenophobic" meant, but I found myself mindlessly repeating it whenever any kind of discussion on the election emerged. I'd sit back smugly and wait for someone to commit the sin of supporting Trump, and then I'd hit them with my punchline: "Are you kidding? The man is a racist, bigoted xenophobe!" Then I'd kick back and revel in my wisdom, as if I'd just offered some kind of groundbreaking observation.

Well, one day I pulled my usual stunt here on Avalon, in response to Calz (bless him) who was supporting Trump at the time. I hit him with the 3 punch combo (racist, xenophobe, bigot), fully expecting him and everyone to wave the white flag and retreat in the face of my monumental take, but of course it didn't happen that way. I was easily dissected and proven to be the f#cking imbecile I was.

So did I reflect and update my thinking immediately? No! I doubled down. Why? I was embarrassed, for starters. And my pride was wounded. Not just because of what I'd written on the forum but because of how wrong I'd been with my friends and family leading up to the election. I couldn't accept that I'd been such an idiot right away (that took time), so meanwhile I twisted my brain into pretzels in an effort to make myself believe what I was saying all along.

I was emotionally dysregulated by it all, and the coping mechanism involved more pride and foolishness.

My embarrassment also involved another factor, and that was this: while I'd been imbibing and bleating out all the mainstream claptrap I'd been hearing and imagining I was clever doing it, everyone else was thinking for themselves. Did that initially inspire me to think for myself as well? No, not initially. Initially I found their incessant questioning of MSM narratives deeply annoying, and I resented them as a result. My attitude was sort of, stop trying to be so clever. When one is trapped in the hive mind, the intellectual autonomy of others is like a Chinese water torture device. You know, deep down, you should perhaps be thinking similarly, and their very existence is like a mirror, forcing you to see all your intellectual inadequacies. Thinking for yourself requires responsibility too, and these folks were forcing me to acknowledge that...and that annoyed me even more!

So, all that is to say this: I understand the mentality, because I allowed myself to become fertile ground for this type of thing as well. I eventually course corrected, but I needed some time and some very wise people to assist me in that endeavor. The course correction wasn't to become a political partisan (tho I do support Trump), it was to become an autonomous thinker mostly.

[SilentFeathers]

So, all that is to say this: I understand the mentality, because I allowed myself to become fertile ground for this type of thing as well. I eventually course corrected, but I needed some time and some very wise people to assist me in that endeavor. The course correction wasn't to become a political partisan (tho I do support Trump), it was to become an autonomous thinker mostly.

Thankfully you had the strength, wisdom, and courage to open your mind and critically "troubleshoot" your thinking so to speak. I enjoy your posts and it would of been a shame for you to become another Bojocan!

I think a lot of the people that have been trapped by the brainwashing, gaslighting, propaganda etc., are the ones that are the least informed about the reality in which they exist in, the truth that surrounds them. Many just get to comfortable in the hivemind and are to fearful to take charge of their own "troubleshooting" when it comes to thinking things through.

I'm not the sharpest knife in the drawer but I spent my whole life researching, analyzing, and studying, about everything I could feed my mind with. Seems like since I was a little kid I never believed anything and always wanted to look things up for myself or hear different versions or perspectives from others. My computer back in the day was my Dad's Encyclopedias and his library of reference and non fiction books. Till this day I still read everything I can get my hands on, sadly even things being written now a days is becoming cloudy and corrupted.

When Trump first came down that elevator I immediately knew all the attacks and lies about him were not normal and not based on many facts at all. I never liked the guy personally and still don't but I instantly knew something was terribly wrong about the way so many were reacting towards him. People were acting like Trump was worse than Satan himself and it didn't make sense to me, I knew right away something more sinister was at play.

The education system Pre-K thru 12th, Colleges, and the main stream media is absolutely the enemy of the people. People are taught for the most part to not think for themselves, it's no wonder most can't ever admit they are wrong.

It's like we are witnessing the birth of a new fanatical religion, a new intolerant God.....

[T Smith]

kindness and forgiveness is seen as the mark of a loser, and to be defeated

This is why they won't admit they are wrong, those that know that they are wrong that is, they are banking on this weakness called "kindness and forgiveness". .....

I would be open to forgiveness, but only coupled with accountability. It's much harder to cling to one's delusions when society officially admonishes the disfunction it causes with tangible retribution. The other side of this coin, kindness and forgiveness, only encourages the likes of Rob Reiner to wallow in their their illnesses. So agreed, this "forgive and forget" thing is an anathema on society---and what the most egregious offenders who have caused actual harm to society are banking on. Until there is full accountability, there can be no forgiveness, nor any forgetting. IMO, it's the only way to right the ship and encourage those so blatantly in the wrong to take responsibility for their belief systems and the harm their actions have inflicted on society.

[thepainterdoug]

I have no problem admitting when I was wrong. I was a progressive and voted for Obama, and then only later did I see the con. I am, and always was an anti war person.Mainly because I learned there are very few real need to go to war scenarios. War is a racket as Major Smedly Butler said.
Thats why it was a no choice decision for me today for DJT among a mountain for more reasoning.

So after the corrupt Bush Cheney Rummy Rice dance that fabricated the Iraq war, and the 9/11 incident which at the time had me like a frantic hornet defending our USA, I went for what I felt was the only choice, Obama. What was I to do? oops conned again.
But this is how they play it and I was a sucker for it . So no problem here calling myself out on such issues
And if DJTrump becomes a different person than he has been presenting , Ill call that out as well.
Remember, its politics. You need to make friends with enemies at times for a greater good. Im happy where we are at now all things considered, and so its a wait and see time .I am very optimistic

[Bill Ryan]

Werner Erhard would ask in his EST seminars, do you want to be right or do you want to be happy?
Made me smile. :) Yes, I did the est training back in 1984 — and assisted in many of the subsequent training programs as logistics supervisor in the seminar room, which meant that I got to re-experience the whole thing for free many times over. (A tremendous experience, by the way, in which I learned huge amounts that I retain to this day.)

As Doug said, one of the cornerstones of est was that humans so very frequently sabotage themselves with the compulsion to 'be right', whatever the personal consequences. Dissolving this in those willing to look in the mirror (however painful it was!) was one of the centerpieces of the two-weekend training event.

[thepainterdoug]

Great Bill I did the course as well and then the" Be Here Now" course, then I had enough I got the idea. Werner was brilliant taking many traditional unknown to the west disciplines and making a "best of " course , christianity, buddhism, Hindi , sufi etc
I also loved that he said that if it wasn't expensive, or if your parents bought it for you, you wouldn't get anything out of it . True in my sisters case.
I also remember everyone back then trashed it as a cult.
Well Bill, here we are 50 years later doing well and in the new " cult" lol, P A

[lake]

Strange thread .... I have NEVER been wrong, so I have no idea what you mean?

It is simple .... EVERYONE else is silly and stupid .... thus they are always "wrong" .... if .... they don't agree with ME

https://i.postimg.cc/J0YPpc7v/reading.gif

:heart:

https://i.postimg.cc/HLt0S4Bz/justsayin.jpg

[onawah]

I think a lot of people who are programmed from an early age into some system of religious belief are taught to suspend rational thinking, and do so willingly because they are frightened into believing that being a disbeliever makes them an "undesirable" and condemns them to some hideous, hellish fate.
Then they will search for and often be rewarded (by parents, teachers, churches, etc.) with data that helps support the religious belief, to assuage the rational aspects of their developing thinking process.
So by the time they are adults, that kind of persuasion can easily be applied to their beliefs about more mundane subjects, such as politics.
That may also be why people become so fanatical when it comes to politics and nationalism, the kind of fanaticism that is normally unmatched, save when it comes to religion.

[norman]

Personally, I think it's naïve to think the wrongness (of this topic) is so narrowly simple to point at.

Mike, have a listen this. I'm sure it belongs in this thread even though it's generally much broader than the commentaries here so far.

It's a butt-joined group of chunks I chopped out of a very much longer conversation ( I'm a habitual soundbite hunter ).

G & E - Teace Snyder - Making Sense of the Global Death Cult_All the Chunks in one (https://app.box.com/s/sr041upnqzm8cnqr4hpmiuredc6jgzf7)