The Damage of Betrayal

[thepainterdoug]

As usual, I will write a post prompted by a spirit nudge just now.
This is one of them

I had a betrayal happen to me in the last 6 months. A very close, as I thought, person who became a close friend over a 5 year period.

He was a sound tech guy and helped me greatly in creating my Musical Hypnotta from the tech side. Computer, and all tech needs associated.

We became close friends, and I began to have him stay after sessions, taking him out to dinners, drinks, long talks and so on, while paying for it all in my appreciation of him beyond the hourly rate I paid him upon his request. I always paid in full each session.

Then something changed. He seemed in the hole, a computer breakdown etc, as he was supposed to produce two new songs I had recently done.

We put a 500$ value on each song and I was willing to try it. So I fronted him $1000. toward the yet to be produced songs. To my shock he dragged his feet as if I was the last on his priority list
After fronting him money, It all changed.
He knew all the lingo, all the buttering up, OMG this song is awesome, OMG I cant wait to hear it and so on. and Doug, just remember, Im there for you! Anytime anything you need etc. Im there!

The end result. 3 Months later, He partially produced one song, disappeared, ghosted me, refused to answer any email, text messages and stole the money without any remorse. And even gaslighted me, saying to my son, hey whats up with your Dad? He tried to reframe it as if it was me!

He stole my belief in once again, a human being who sold himself on being of like minds , class, honor, integrity, honesty and trust in true friendship. Wearing his quartz Crystal around his neck with all the new age trimmings.

This has been damaging to me.

All I wanted was an explanation. Communication. Just say, Doug I screwed up, I cannot pay you back. Anything! And I would have been fine

Well its not about money. Its friendship and trust, and this is what I had to come to realize.
It was all an act. All birdseed to bring me in , sniff around to see what trap he could set that would benefit him.

Well, without communication, how could I know? It could be drug use and so on. But without simple communication, I am left guessing feeling played and betrayed

this is the first time I have shared this with anyone and I thank you all for reading

comments and similarities welcome

its brings to mind this humorous saying, "A friend is just an enemy you haven't made yet"
pd

[Johan (Keyholder)]

Thanks so much for sharing your story of betrayal Doug.
I am quite sure it is just one more in a long line of similar ones, when seen across time.

It is definitely about trust.
I think that we can look at trust in two ways, meaning our approach to it.

Either we can start to trust someone when s/he has proved to be trustworthy.
OR
we can trust someone till they haven proven to be not trustworthy, "giving credit" so to speak.

Needless to say, in these days, when one is the latter, it is way more likely that we will get disppointed, as you described.
Sadly this has become more a standard practice than say 40-50 years ago. We are in the same agegroup, I am sure you can relate to that.

There is a thread about little known words, where I was thinking of mentioning a new word I learned recently.
But that word fits in well, in this new thread of yours too.

The word: ISOLOPHILIA

Which I think can become a reaction to an untold number of experiences, akin to the one you just shared.

Isolophilia: Isolophilia is a concept that encompasses the deep appreciation of solitude and an intrinsic desire for alone time. Unlike social isolation, which implies a lack of social contact and can have negative connotations, isolophilia is about choosing to be alone and finding profound contentment in one's own company.


I have had numerous experiences like yours (over the years), in so many different environments and situations that it is hard to believe.
Very often, but not always, money was involved.

But just to give one noteworthy example here...

In the late nineties I met a stranger in Cornwall. It became a strong spiritual encounter and it appeared that I could help him out, with information that I had, because I had been in a similar predicament as he was, actually, in.

Later on he said that he wanted to emigrate from the UK to Ireland or Belgium.
Being Belgian, I helped him in many different ways, helping him getting the Belgian nationality, which he wanted.
It's a bit difficult to calculate, but I "lost" in the process, over the years, some 12.000 UK£. And a LOT of time.
The endresult was something alike to what you described.

What I wonder about, is that I have noticed more and more that we - people like us - are "being played".
I have come to see it as a way of "being a TI". Not the usual kind though, more a hidden form of that.
When you see it happening more and more, it becomes a pattern; and it is an automatic one.
Which shows where it is coming from.

Finding the best way(s) to cope with this is something we may be able to learn, from one another.

[Ernie Nemeth]

This has also happened to me recently.

All I wanted was an admission and an 'I'm sorry'. All would have been forgiven, after a long tongue lashing of course, well-deserved. But to claim innocence, and feign insult was just too much after all these years...

I miss him but the impasse is insurmountable.

(Totally out of character behavior that left me confused, threatened and flabbergasted. Much like the covid hysteria.)

[thepainterdoug]

Johan

This is a very thoughtful response and I thank you. Yes, I may be wrong but this was quite rare occurrence 50 years ago. My Dad did everything on a handshake.

Men were men, not in the big balls way, in the integrity way. Your word was everything, it was who you were. Today we have a lot of places for people to hide behind in the electronic media world and they really dont mind hiding in them. For me, I would know myself what a scoundrel and chicken I was. I actually blame parenting.

my apologies but what is " TI" ? I was also getting ready to write a post on the insanity of acronyms . you cannot get thru a UFO video or talk with knowing the glut of acronyms. lol

one again, many thanks and thank you for your share and sorry you were played as I was.

btw my Dad would always say, why lie when the truth would be just as good?
so true

[thepainterdoug]

Earnie. EXACTLY! 100% Very damaging, left me disoriented and so on. SO freakin simple to say, sorry man I need to be absent, my bad,Im sorry. i would have been so understanding. Instead he has left far more lasting damage than ever necessary

[Johan (Keyholder)]

Hi Doug,

Thanks for the response.
A TI is a "'Targeted Individual". There are lots of threads about this on the forum.
I will always remember Omni as one of the main individuals who had to deal with this, but I believe there are many more on this forum.
The "targeting" can come in so many different ways that it becomes very confusing.

There are obvious ways, more of the physical kind. Then there are the emotional (rooted) ones. And furthermore, spiritual-based ones.
Yet (almost?) always the purpose is to get "narcissistic supply", in one form or the other, from the TI.
The more one can become aware of this "machination", the better one can get prepared for future attacks.

I agree with you that this was rather uncommon 40-50 years ago. I do think it has multiplied with a factor 20 or even more.
The handshake deals... yes, I do remember those as well.

We both (and so many others) have been played.
Yet, the more this happens, the more we become aware.

[Ernie Nemeth]

My seeming willingness "to be played" is something my buddy never could understand about me, no matter how I tried to explain it to him.

When a child throws a tantrum and I have to "play along" to get back to normalcy, or I am forced to use psychological tactics, have I been "played" or did I "outplay" the "player"?

My good deed does not get undone just because the outcome is not how I had expected. But if I fume over the unfair treatment I received for my good deed then what was the actual purpose of the deed?
Remember:
No good deed goes unpunished.

[thepainterdoug]

JOHAN/ Ahh, I should have gotten that, and I actually, short of total paranoia believe I am one of those T I people. I will explain in another post soon.

And your description of Isolophilia: is me to a tee. Im actually very social, very at ease in conversation, meeting people, gals and all. But at the end of it all it seems a waste of my time And i chose to be alone. My productivity in the arts, music, my musical and all I do ,wether anyone ever hears or appreciates any of it or not , is what I care about.
that and my close family and perhaps 2 friends lol.

[Jaak]

I hanged out with one guy for 10 years. We lived in same squats , went skateboarding together almost daily , we worked in same place , got drunk together etc .
But then he started to do amphetamine , slowly more and more . And with that came all kinds of lies and stories to scam anybody and everybody he knows to get some money out of them .
In the end i stopped giving him second or fifth chances to not screw me over and kicked him out of the squat and out from the work where he had been stealing money for years as i later found out.
Kicked him out of my life.
Also found out after that he had lied to me and others for many years before speed messed with his mind and his lies an bullsh*t just became too obvious.
So yeah i basicly got scammed and lied to for 10 years but it was usually in such small level it was hard to notice . Still ,wtf .
I did randomly run into him after 6 years of not seeing him after i moved back to Estonia last august. Since he was together with some other guys i know for long time we had some beers together and talked a bit.
He sent me facebook request, wants to be buddies again but after all that nonsense ? Although we did hang out for 10 years and we had tons of good times together and 10 years is quite big part of our lives that is hard to ignore and what i dont want to forget.
Should i forgive and risk getting lied to again ? Well i probably dont trust anything he says and i dont think this will ever change. At the same time part of me would not mind hanging out with him.
At least im now more aware that these kind of human parasites exist and they might play a very long game to steal your energy, time and money .
I didnt give up on humanity . I still occasionally give random people i meet chances to rip me off and then im happily surprised when they dont . Got to test peoples character somehow i guess , who you can trust and not .
Over the years i have lived together with hundreds of different people from all over the world ,usually short periods of time (we had every week some people come and stay in our squat for a week or two, some friend of a friend of a friend etc) and never crap like that happened.
Damage of betrayal keeps on haunting a bit and not sure what to do with it . To learn from it for sure but to forgive which in a way would be the right thing to do , im not sure if im ready for that or if by doing that i just expose myself to be used again .

[Michel Leclerc]

I do not want to tell my story because that would disturb my isolophilia.

But just this. The person had a form of multiple personality disorder. Maybe even a not diagnosable one. Anyhow (s)he did not recognise it, and I did not either. I did not because also in my childhood and pre-childhood a few things got broken and I drew from the recognition of this a life-long quest for making myself whole. Out of need and out of desire. I knew that beauty, goodness, truth were plenty when whole – and lacked when broken. So – like you,Doug, artistry as a healing path, a tool, a goal – and in my case, intense dialogue with depth psychology. But not so for the other person. Life decided by a form of immediate social practicality, and hence strong, and successful, manipulativeness. Only when (s)he passed the ghastly extent of that appeared – to all.

I think, Doug, that an increasing number of people are shredded the way I described – and that they are dominated by an intense fear of that wholeness. They even do not recognise that aspiration in the person they betray. They only seek them out because they think the persons they manipulate lack something – and they do: they lack precisely that fragmentation – and they do not wish for themselves the wholeness in whose sign their victims want to live – so they do not miss anything.

When truth breaks through, their victims are very sad, and they themselves tiptoe to another victim.

I know there have been posts about "narcissistic" personalities. Most of the time, I find the advice superficial and naive. Also "narcissist" has become so fashionable that I tell myself "beware" whenever somebody in my surroundings calls a person "narcissistic".

Maybe the people who want genuine happiness are unable to recognise the ones who seem to want the same (because after all; why would one not want to be genuinely happy), but who do not understand what that quest involves.

We will have to continue our quest – beyond the sadness brought by betrayal.

[JackMcThorn]

I have been sort of lucky and haven't been burnt in a long time. Had some nice close friends over the years and nice experiences to remember. I keep in touch with a couple people and a few family members regularly.

But for the most part, I am alone. It is my choice to embrace a quiet and thoughtful solitude. None of my problems affect someone else; nor do their problems affect me. I choose to keep my distance and with it; some advantages.

But this is not an easy lifestyle. Some people absolutely need people. I find that a very small circle suits me just fine. I don't have to explain things like 'manic-depression' and other things I deal with.

I have a great old friend of 25 something years that wishes I get back into motorcycling. We have some stories fraught with adventure and good times. I struggle with this thought. This year I will turn 5o and frankly I feel as if I've worn out my lucky welcome with all the years of motorcycling and the things that happen that are at some point pretty dangerous. I had one single solitary accident all those years in 1994. I was rear-ended at a red light that turned green and the car in front of me didn't move. A Jeep rammed right into me and tossed me on the sidewalk. The bike was totaled and I walked away with some back pain. But all the years riding since then, nary an incident worth noting. My old friend thinks I was more extroverted back then. Maybe that is true. But now, with all the things that have happened I am certainly more introverted.

I would rather not get burned so I don't fly too close to the sun. I'm not implying that this is the answer, it's just my answer for myself. If you have been burned; I hope you recover swiftly. Humanity is a big number compared to one person.

[rgray222]

I don't think this guy woke up one day and said what can I do to really irritate Doug. I don't think this has anything to do with betrayal. It is about life, your guy is experiencing pain, certainly financial pain and I would bet you another $1000 emotional pain. There is probably a good chance he is also experiencing the agony and shame of addiction, he feels that he is a failure, and he can't bring himself to tell you. Keep in mind that for those last few years, you had a good relationship and viewed him as a competent computer technician. He feels that telling you about his problems would make you believe he is a fraud, a failure and that he is so incompetent he can't even manage his own life. He has yet to learn that life is about these failures; life is handing him an opportunity to correct the wrongs, so he can move on. For most of us it is a simple lesson but very difficult to understand. I am not saying you have to like this or even accept it, but I think you should be aware of it.

[thepainterdoug]

rgray222/ I do accept it because I believe you are correct. As distasteful as it is. I believe this is true. Thanks everyone else, Ill be back to respond to all

[thepainterdoug]

Jaak/ thanks for your story . 10 years is a long time. what makes people play these dishonest games? To me, my word is gold. Without my word, im not much of anything. this has to be formed from my parents and upbringing. To me, this is what is dysfunctional today

[thepainterdoug]

Michel/ thanks. Some very insightful writing as I have come to expect from you. I think the intense push to be a superstar, to be noticed, successful, and make a mark is becoming harder for people to achieve in a self respecting manner. Anyone can cull likes and thumbs up from strangers on the net if one puts the time into it. But what is the actual offering? It all Empty .
I think this person who damaged me was far more damaged than he could ever make me as rgrey222 said. this being said, i can forgive, but I will not forget.

[thepainterdoug]

Jack McThorn/ I too need very few people. But yes, it can be a hard life. I do care about love, acceptance and acknowledgement for my offerings here, but I do not seek fame or any kind of praise.I just would like to know I made a mark, and sometimes I don't even know why I need that. God, my creator sees everything and I am beyond blessed.

thanks , and thanks everyone for being friends

[onawah]

Narcissim is on the rise largely, it would seem, as a result of the various traumas people have been experiencing in this "modern" world.
Learning to recognize the characteristics of the various types of narcissism has been the focus of an ongoing education the cosmos has been providing for me over the last 5 years or so.
It's quite riveting and also interesting in a weird sort of way, but of course, very sobering.
Some cases are much more obvious than others but the variety of types is astounding, and the severity of some cases is so remarkable it makes one wonder how some people even manage to survive...:nerd:
It's also helpful in learning how to recognize one's own leaning toward narcissistic behavior.
(Also how we naively leave ourselves open to becoming a narcissist's source of "supply". )
I recommend checking out this thread:
https://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?97293-20-Basic-Tactics-Used-By-Narcissists-Sociopaths-And-Psychopaths-To-manipulate-And-Silence-A-Prey&highlight=narcissism
The posts there may not all be deeply insightful or wise, but it's a place to start, and for those who are new to betrayal, that can be useful.
And there are some good online psychologists whose videos are featured there who have had a lot of experience in diagnosing and explaining narcissistic behavior.
I don't think that the use of the term "narcissist" has become fashionable so much as that it has become commonplace because it is becoming increasingly common.



I know there have been posts about "narcissistic" personalities. Most of the time, I find the advice superficial and naive. Also "narcissist" has become so fashionable that I tell myself "beware" whenever somebody in my surroundings calls a person "narcissistic".

[Johan (Keyholder)]

Onawah, I agree with what you describe above.

Personally I started studying (pathological) narcissism in the second half of the 1970's. In those days the term had not yet been introduced in the DSM.
But the behavior did exist of course; it was more in the hiding at that time.

There is a (good) book written by Jean Twenge in 2010: "The narcissism epidemic". She describes the evolution of this mind-virus.

In 2005 I had the idea to start a self-help group for victims/survivors of pathological narcissism. I followed a course on how to begin a self-help group. The result was that I found out that very few would come forward and admit they had been (or still were) victims of narcissistic abuse. There was a lot of shame and guilt involved (with the emotional abuse victims). The only way that it could have worked was by following a sort of AA-approach. Meetings where people could come to and remain anonymous. I considered it an almost impossible task to start from scratch and all by myself, so I did not pursue that venture.

@Michel ("I know there have been posts about "narcissistic" personalities. Most of the time, I find the advice superficial and naive. Also "narcissist" has become so fashionable that I tell myself "beware" whenever somebody in my surroundings calls a person "narcissistic".)

The posts here on the forum (about narcissism) are most of the time but not always, basic information. How useful it can be depends on the reader and his/her experiences. Nowadays there is SO much information that can be found on the subject that this alone becomes suspicious.

It is "fashionable". Yes, it is! But why? One (major) reason is that whenever a subject like this comes forward, it gets "hijacked" by people who are "in it", for the money alone. In recent years hundreds of books, articles, YT-video's, movies, etc... have been "produced" with the main aim to supply the makers with an income.
Or even worse: to get them them "the energy" they are looking for as emotional vampires.

This is not exclusive to narcissism. As you are Belgian, maybe you remember the case of Marcel Vervloesem? His case dates back more than 25 years ago. He was a self-declared "pedophile-hunter". But it became clear hae was one himself! When such people (and narcissists as well) look for "preys", it is the easiest way for them to look up places where such victims will gather, or can be found.

I know of a group that "claimed" the subject, and went to a Polish author (not well known), to get his book. It is about one particular form of narcissism. This "group" sort of "confiscated" the info and now makes money (and victims) based on it. This is just one example, there are more.

Once in a while there is someone who is open on the subject. Sam Vaknin is a self-declared pathological narcissist, but is also recognized as an "authority" on the subject (and with good reason I think). He is doing more "good" than "evil" this way in my opinion, just by giving out so much detailed information, which is certainly not naive or superficial (his book "Malignant Self Love" is a good informative book).

The best info and unbiased information can often been found in those people who have "lived" in a situation with narcissists. A few worth mentioning here:

Kathy Krajco "What makes narcissists tick" An experiential specialist on the subject, but she got killed eventually (some sources deny that though) by the narcissist. (I have a pdf which would fit well in the Avalon library)

A particular blog of a woman who has lived with a pathological narcissist and tells her story. Starting in 2009 and till 2017. Link to the first post:
https://survivingnarcissism.com/page/52/

Paul Levy and his books and articles on "wetiko". Website: https://www.awakeninthedream.com/

In general one can say that the "best" information comes from those who do not earn one penny/cent from it. The main problem is psychotherapists (and the like) jumping on the bandwagon and proclaiming they can "help" victims. Indeed, pathological narcissism is "fashionable" and can get them a good income! Often (not always) they "prey" on their clients, get money ànd narcissistic supply out of them. Discerning who is who is not a simple task.

So, I think it is a subject that demands a very careful approach.

[thepainterdoug]

Onawah/ you are so correct. I checked out that link and the first thing that jumped out on me was Gaslighting, which I never really understood. I heard it in the news but thought whatever? just another new age slang word.

But this person I wrote about did this!! My son was aware of him and met him once, and yet when this entire thing happened, my son heard how distraught I was over it, that he called him and this guy said, hey man whats the matter with your dad? is he ok?

he tried to turn it, cast me as the one with the problem and him, the victim ! its beyond laughable and no where plausible. yet he did it, he went for it, and I suppose he even convinced himself he is in the right

and all I continually kept asking (while actually being stupid enough to forgive him )was to ask? what happened? tell me? communicate! let me know? are you ok? are you in trouble? and no answer ever while he was happy to take 1000 dollars of unearned money and run for the hills.

We have built a world in which people can hide, people dont even use their real photos, their real name or identity. they can doge and hide behind electronics as complete spineless chickens and con men.
And this seems good enough for them just so the can " get over" on ya.
pathetic time we are in

[Michel Leclerc]

Doug, thank you.
When I read what rgray222 wrote I immediately thought: he may be right. But I wanted to wait for how you would read rgray’s words.

I thought you might be right rgray222 (thank you for your words) because they did pluck a string in me. The person had made revealing hints – about the addiction part – but the multiple personality charade was so effective that it did not occur to me that they were hints about the self. Nor did they for the person’s self because so effective was the charade for the person’s self. When the person died everything became clear, and then it was too late. A pain to live with alone it proved to be because everybody else went in denial. They all "knew X too well" for the facts to be true. This is our present. Truth seems to be an "entrance into the law", as Kafka’s short story says, "made just for us” – and at the end the gatekeeper says “now I leave and close it”.

[Michel Leclerc]

Onawah, I agree with what you describe above.

Personally I started studying (pathological) narcissism in the second half of the 1970's. In those days the term had not yet been introduced in the DSM.
But the behavior did exist of course; it was more in the hiding at that time.

There is a (good) book written by Jean Twenge in 2010: "The narcissism epidemic". She describes the evolution of this mind-virus.

In 2005 I had the idea to start a self-help group for victims/survivors of pathological narcissism. I followed a course on how to begin a self-help group. The result was that I found out that very few would come forward and admit they had been (or still were) victims of narcissistic abuse. There was a lot of shame and guilt involved (with the emotional abuse victims). The only way that it could have worked was by following a sort of AA-approach. Meetings where people could come to and remain anonymous. I considered it an almost impossible task to start from scratch and all by myself, so I did not pursue that venture.

@Michel ("I know there have been posts about "narcissistic" personalities. Most of the time, I find the advice superficial and naive. Also "narcissist" has become so fashionable that I tell myself "beware" whenever somebody in my surroundings calls a person "narcissistic".)

The posts here on the forum (about narcissism) are most of the time but not always, basic information. How useful it can be depends on the reader and his/her experiences. Nowadays there is SO much information that can be found on the subject that this alone becomes suspicious.

It is "fashionable". Yes, it is! But why? One (major) reason is that whenever a subject like this comes forward, it gets "hijacked" by people who are "in it", for the money alone. In recent years hundreds of books, articles, YT-video's, movies, etc... have been "produced" with the main aim to supply the makers with an income.
Or even worse: to get them them "the energy" they are looking for as emotional vampires.

This is not exclusive to narcissism. As you are Belgian, maybe you remember the case of Marcel Vervloesem? His case dates back more than 25 years ago. He was a self-declared "pedophile-hunter". But it became clear hae was one himself! When such people (and narcissists as well) look for "preys", it is the easiest way for them to look up places where such victims will gather, or can be found.

I know of a group that "claimed" the subject, and went to a Polish author (not well known), to get his book. It is about one particular form of narcissism. This "group" sort of "confiscated" the info and now makes money (and victims) based on it. This is just one example, there are more.

Once in a while there is someone who is open on the subject. Sam Vaknin is a self-declared pathological narcissist, but is also recognized as an "authority" on the subject (and with good reason I think). He is doing more "good" than "evil" this way in my opinion, just by giving out so much detailed information, which is certainly not naive or superficial (his book "Malignant Self Love" is a good informative book).

The best info and unbiased information can often been found in those people who have "lived" in a situation with narcissists. A few worth mentioning here:

Kathy Krajco "What makes narcissists tick" An experiential specialist on the subject, but she got killed eventually (some sources deny that though) by the narcissist. (I have a pdf which would fit well in the Avalon library)

A particular blog of a woman who has lived with a pathological narcissist and tells her story. Starting in 2009 and till 2017. Link to the first post:
https://survivingnarcissism.com/page/52/

Paul Levy and his books and articles on "wetiko". Website: https://www.awakeninthedream.com/

In general one can say that the "best" information comes from those who do not earn one penny/cent from it. The main problem is psychotherapists (and the like) jumping on the bandwagon and proclaiming they can "help" victims. Indeed, pathological narcissism is "fashionable" and can get them a good income! Often (not always) they "prey" on their clients, get money ànd narcissistic supply out of them. Discerning who is who is not a simple task.

So, I think it is a subject that demands a very careful approach.

Johan thank you for the ideas you bring up as well as the things Belgian.

I will make just three points on the subject and may then rest my case.

(1) as you appear to have professional experience in the field of psychology I would like to point out this: you will definitely know the “Oedipus complex” and the role it used to play in Freudian psychoanalysis – well, considering its status now which borders on that of a Freudian fraud if I may offer a too obvious pun – I think that the concept of Narcissism (as was the Oedipus complex) is in great need of being deconstructed and is probably already being so: it reeks too much of the kind of “synthetically easy” theoretical construct that was fashionable just before the explosion of WWI; to me it works as a rallying "meme" of the last fifty years just like Oedipus was fashionable among the intelligentia in roughly the twenties up to seventies: considering that, it hurts more than it helps;

(2) Vervloesem; may I just point out that the deep rottenness of certain areas of the Belgian police, juridical system and state security warrants extreme caution with assessing cases like this: the possibility of the incriminating evidence having been planted is real; that especially in the context of the sexual depravity and sex-tinged murder cases of the 90s and early XXIrst century, in which Belgians for an instant realised that they were living pampered in a kindergarten before re-plunging themselves into blissful ignorance;

(3) “a careful approach”: yes, of the humans who suffer, and especially if they suffer at the hands of psychotherapists who plaster their wounds shut; not at all of the people who entertain the "conceptual prison" professionally: there only the scalpel to the ulcer helps; as for those who suffer, I cannot count on my two hands the botched psychotherapies amongst friends, whereas genuine psychoanalyses (that have a chance of success) cost the price of a top-Tesla: most people think that their sanity is not worth a car.

[Strat]

Sorry this happened to you doug. Hopefully this isn't too off topic I just think the timing is interesting because I've been writing about this the past few days, the importance of choosing friends carefully. I've got lots of drinking buddies or people to 'shoot the ****' with but not a lot of true friends. This is by choice and my vetting process towards regarding someone as my friend is strict for lack of a better word.

Hopefully this doesn't effect your faith in humanity too much. :beer:

[thepainterdoug]

I will add my last comment on this from my perspective. I felt that this was done to me. Unfairly. But maybe not. What if in an earlier part of my life as a child, or even a life prior, I did this same betrayal to someone else? And now Im feeling exactly what I did to another?
The universe coming round, the balancing, the karma coming full circle.
just sayin

[Delight]

I will add my last comment on this from my perspective. I felt that this was done to me. Unfairly. But maybe not. What if in an earlier part of my life as a child, or even a life prior, I did this same betrayal to someone else? And now Im feeling exactly what I did to another?
The universe coming round, the balancing, the karma coming full circle.
just sayin

IMO betrayal is about the worst emotional blow in life, IMO worse than a loss by death.
I have always said "What goes around comes around". IMO, we may have to face the "karma"? However, IMO we can change by way of learning the "results" and never repeat the mistake of OUR ACTIONS. Betrayals can seem small (like breaking promises) but have large reverberation.

Not able to completely avoid those who can PRETEND to be honest, sincere and kindly means we need to be ware. It is important to be self sufficient so we don't choose predators as we are desperate FOR their lures.

Predators don't feel the pain IMO. If you felt/understood how this felt NOW, you would not pass it on. There are people who have an uncanny shield so we cannot sense their true natures and IMO we will miss the signals that say "get out of their way". I had an experience where I sincerely did not know that a couple in my life were thieves. I trusted them. I actually FELT honesty as a vibe from them.

One of my neighbors borrowed a largish sum of money from other neighbors. This man also RADIATED a good will vibe of sincerity. Of course he never repaid the money. it turned out his crimes were WAY greater including selling his wife's parents house out from under them, identity theft of employees, mortgaging his mother's property and MORE. It is still hard to reconcile his persona and his behavior. He has no remorese apparently. Psychopaths have the ability to fool lie detectors and us.

"Wise as serpents and gentle as doves" is a mature position.

The bottom line IMo is also whatever is "taken" from us is easily restored when we are already full of substance by way of OUR relationship with the GOOD.

[SilentFeathers]

I will add my last comment on this from my perspective. I felt that this was done to me. Unfairly. But maybe not. What if in an earlier part of my life as a child, or even a life prior, I did this same betrayal to someone else? And now Im feeling exactly what I did to another?
The universe coming round, the balancing, the karma coming full circle.
just sayin

I would lean towards the "maybe not".

You may have "opened the door" by fronting this person money, but their actions of not fulfilling the agreed upon contract so to speak is 100% on them, regardless of their excuse.

By the sounds of it you seemed to be very flexible and would of been willing to renegotiate terms or reach some type of understanding with this person if they would of just been up front and communicated with you more.

Don't beat yourself up over it, like I said, at the end of the day it's on them (even though you lost money). Things have a weird way of working themselves out.

I've been through this a few times; Several years ago I loaned a guy several hundred dollars (for a set period of time) and he never paid me back. He was in a really bad place at the time and I never really hounded him about it much, but I did ask him about it a few times over a period of several months. I ended up finally just writing it off as a loss and moved on. Several years later he contacted me and said he had the money and wanted to pay me back. I thanked him for not forgetting about me and made another deal with him. I told him I would forgive the debt if he found someone that was in the same situation he was in when I loaned him the money and just give the money to them as a gift, pay it forward so to speak. A few weeks later he contacted me and told me what he did with the money and told me all about the person he gave it too, and then thanked me. I wasn't sure if he'd actually follow thru with this but the sound in his voice assured me that he did.

Something told me him owing me this money weighed heavy on his mind, probably for years, and I never forgot about it either. I think where this money ended up was a good thing for the both of us and the person that ended up with it got some very needed help at the time and never has to worry about paying it back.

[Bill Ryan]

I will add my last comment on this from my perspective. I felt that this was done to me. Unfairly. But maybe not. What if in an earlier part of my life as a child, or even a life prior, I did this same betrayal to someone else? And now Im feeling exactly what I did to another?
The universe coming round, the balancing, the karma coming full circle.
just sayin

I would lean towards the "maybe not". Me too — absolutely. It could equally well be revenge on his part for something ethical that you (Doug) did to him in a previous life encounter, such as (e.g.) making sure he was locked up for a crime.

[Satori]

What if you are over thinking this…? Roll with the punches. Be strong. Bend, but don’t break. It is what it is…. Live and learn.

[Arcturian108]

Doug,
I recently had a shocking interaction with a malignant narcissist, so I have a few things to share about this. In my case, my husband and I had rented a second house on our property to a woman who presented herself as competent, running an international business, having raised four grown children, and was just looking to move from a noisy beachside community to the quiet of the mountains. She said she loved our property and everything she heard about us, my angelic work, my hobbies. When she moved in, she had requested that we make room for her furniture to replace much of what we had in the house. She only did this a little bit at a time. After a month of good feelings and meeting several of her close relatives, including her mother, brother and grandchildren; one day she stopped the pretense, and just showed us her true colors, told us to get our "junk" out of the garage so she could park her $194,000 Range Rover under cover. From that point, we became her enemies, and every bill to be paid was a fight, and anytime we came close to that house, she called the police. I had to hire a lawyer since I assumed that she intended to squat on our property, and we now have two criminal court cases against her involving simple assaults. Thankfully, we only had given her a six-month lease, and when I started to fight back, her lawyer must have told her to vacate on time, as she left the day the lease expired.
The reason I know that this experience was destined is that three weeks after she left, a driver I hired to take me to the airport, wanted to hear all about the experience, and when I told her that this woman lived at 384 Valley Street in nearby Georgia, the driver told me that she lived right next door to 'miss toxic', an almost impossible coincidence in an area that has about 50,000 homeowners.
Now, with all my psychic abilities, how did I not see this evil in advance? I even had another spiritual teacher check her out before she moved in and he didn't see any issues either. I now believe my guides and angels were making me and my husband aware of a threat we never perceived before. And also the dark side always looks for chinks in one's armor. It doesn't have to be karmic to be an important life lesson. If you are doing a lot of good in the world, which Doug you likely are, then the dark side wants you to stop.

[Johan (Keyholder)]

@Michel. Thanks for your wellthought reply above.

And no, I do not have a professional background in psychology. But I do have 50 years of practical experiences in that field (I can understand how you compare it with the fraud-ian Oedipus complex (I do think Freud caused a lot of harm though, CG Jung and Viktor Frankl for instance did do a lot of "good" in my opinion, but that is just my peronal idea)).

On Vervloesem - your answer in point 2) - I fully agree with you. I have lost years because of it (the "system") and I know more about the "deep rottenness" you mentioned than I care to explain.

Good psychotherapists are very few and very far in between. Yet I would never advise anyone any type of "psychoanalysis". No doubt you know a few you believe in, no matter what they cost. I don't.

[thepainterdoug]

Acturian/ thats certainly chilling. Im glad you rid yourself of that parasite. although my event had about a 5-7 years lifespan, his true colors didnt rise until i fronted him money late last year. so in the end I wasnt hurt property or financially a great deal. but my disbelief in the matter has shaken me. I just didnt see it, and truly dont understand the upside for him.
your scenario would have driven me crazy and thank god it ended for you.

SATORI/ in the end thats where its at for me. Live and learn, or should i say LIVE AND EXPERIENCE, cause im not really sure I learned anything

[Denise/Dizi]

I have had this happen to me multiple times... And you would think I would have learned... But the final straw was when a gal did it to the family business, and for a menial amount of money.... We took apart a piece of jewelry for her, made another ring, and added her stones. She came back in, paid a small amount, and said she would be back later to pay the rest.

This younger gal worked in a real estate office, in a very small town, and worked merely a few doors down from our shop. She asked if she cou,d wear the ring while she made payents, and you guess it, she never paid any more. After months of never seeing her again, we would call. No answer, but of course the business line would show on her phone. So I called from my cell phone, and she answered suggesting things have been crazy and she would be up soon to take care of it.. She never did, nor did she reply to any further calls..

I never went into her place of business, assuming she most likely didn't work there anymore... And unlike her crude behavior I didn't want to take drama into a business who wasn't responsible for her personal behavior.

But then another situation happened. A couple was to wed and ordered two custom rings... we made them, and they didn't marry. The deal was they were each to pay for the others ring... I called him, I called her... She never replied, but surprisingly he did! He explained he worked out of town, and their failed relationship shouldn't become our expense.. He stated he would come into the shop the next time he was in town, and pay for his ring.. And he explained he worked out of town for months at a time...

One day while minding my own business, this very nice looking young man walked up to the counter, and told me his name and that he was here to fulfill his promise... He bought his own ring.. He claimed as he handed over the money, "I will wear it as the nicest pinky ring in town"... Said it wasn't our fault their relationship failed, smiled and walked out... I was astonished... And happy to meet this young man who knew what integrity and honoring his word meant... If my granddaughter were a little bit older, I would have prompted her to meet this young man. He was a very descent man.

As far as his other half? We just put her ring on the shelf, as it was never worn and we made it.. But I felt that their relationship had to have failed as a result of her, no promise was kept to us, nor to the young gentlemen who did honor his obligation. I was happy he escaped her.

The third and last time someone tried to "Stiff" the shop, I was able to prove this woman was doing it, and she had to pay... She bought a necklace in person, went home and cancelled the charges. Fortunately for us, our store policy requires a return of the merchandise, and she never made any attempt to do so... She wanted the jewelry without paying for it... When she denied the claim, the credit card company wanted proof she tried to mail it back and we "refused it upon receipt", which she could not prove, as she never tried to give us back the jewelry, she just lied hoping they would believe her and let her have it for free...

The Credit card company reversed the charges again, and paid us for her attempted theft.

So there are times when the good intentions win over, the dishonest are caught, and the one that "Gets Away" really doesn't get away with much, besides a soiled reputation... and in a very small town.

On a more personal note, I have had people take advantage of my kindness, so my new way of managing myself is to make sure to never extend anything I am not willing to lose... Unless it is due and payable.. Ever. Those with integrity expect it, and those who would have liked to have taken advantage of me, say nothing, as it would reveal their intentions... It works for me and I don't have to then go through the hurt of betrayal...

I am sorry you trusted someone who let you down... Honorable individuals seems to be a dying trait in the world, and parasitic behaviors tend to be on the rise sadly. Even those that make youtube videos that do nothing but profit off of them bashing the character of another seem parasitic to me... Sure one video to make everyone aware but when the meat of their content is continuous bashing of one individual, well that to me is no better than the behaviors they are bashing..

Humanity is spiraling into a sad state if you ask me. Fortunately there are still many left with integrity..

I miss those who meant something when they made a deal... They're few and far in between these days.

[Mike]

I will add my last comment on this from my perspective. I felt that this was done to me. Unfairly. But maybe not. What if in an earlier part of my life as a child, or even a life prior, I did this same betrayal to someone else? And now Im feeling exactly what I did to another?
The universe coming round, the balancing, the karma coming full circle.
just sayin

I would lean towards the "maybe not". Me too — absolutely. It could equally well be revenge on his part for something ethical that you (Doug) did to him in a previous life encounter, such as (e.g.) making sure he was locked up for a crime.


That's a very interesting idea. I hadn't ever thought of it quite that way.

Doug, if many of these NDE testimonies are to be believed, we actually agree ahead of time to play the heroes and the villains in each other's lives before we arrive here on earth. Looked upon this way, perhaps your friend was actually acting compassionately.

That's likely an unsatisfactory excuse for you, and I can't blame you for that. I always have mixed feelings when I hear someone say this type of thing. It suggests we have no agency and therefore no personal responsibility. That's unacceptable to me, so I've made peace with the idea by assuming we do have agency most of the time but occasionally volunteer to perform in predetermined acts of fate.

Anyway, coming back down to earth now...
We have no way of knowing if an act is karmic in nature or predetermined in some way, so I think the appropriate way to deal with it is to assume betrayal and act accordingly by processing the disappointment (like you are now) and moving forward not with a cynical approach but with a slightly more cautious one. Fronting money is always a dicey affair.

[jaybee]

I will add my last comment on this from my perspective. I felt that this was done to me. Unfairly. But maybe not. What if in an earlier part of my life as a child, or even a life prior, I did this same betrayal to someone else? And now Im feeling exactly what I did to another?
The universe coming round, the balancing, the karma coming full circle.
just sayin

I would lean towards the "maybe not". Me too — absolutely. It could equally well be revenge on his part for something ethical that you (Doug) did to him in a previous life encounter, such as (e.g.) making sure he was locked up for a crime.


I've recently seen somewhere, but can't remember where - that with reincarnation it doesn't always mean that someone has done the same thing to someone else and got the same karma..... but a person could volunteer to take a neutral role to assist the 'betrayer' (or whatever) with a testing situation - to help them and give them a chance to do something differently....

???

[Michel Leclerc]

I would like to thank you all for your contributions to the insight I have in myself. I would like to make one point – essential to me – and to its consequences.

I am, in this life, responsible for my sins – and only for my sins in this life.

***

Sins: the entire Mount Everest of de-responsibilisation statements mainly coming from what the “West” calls ‘the East” (karma; advaita; yin, but yang, and yang, but yin; “there is no good nor bad’;…; “compassion”) is intellectually interesting –- maybe (!) interesting; frequently I feel just boredom when encountering their latest instance and instalment –- but does not explain (away) my grief at the wrongs I commit. Grief meaning bitter tears. Wrongs meaning even the smallest wrong to a non-human earth denizen.

Calling a sin a mistake is the greatest cheating of it all. It robs me of my tears. It is psychotic in its core. (Locking the “safe” then throwing the key in the canal.)

The late nineteenth century started that. They did not want to read Kierkegaard. They misunderstood Nietzsche. So they transformed humans’ task (naming Eden’s animals and gardening it) into Technology; AI now; Artificial Souls quite soon. Of course, they cannot and they do not; but they have plotted nonetheless.

May I never stop being able to drink from the wellspring of my tears.

I drink and I go to the being (human; animal; plant) that I have wronged. That is my only responsibility. To un-sin my sins. (Look up the source of the word sin..).

Jesus was somehow entitled to ask his “Father” to forgive what they were doing to him – because he was himself without sin. (Or if we do not like the Christian reading of what happened: he was with lesser sins than his contemporaries.) But we are not – even we bear more sins than many of our contemporary beings.

Forgiving ourselves is not what is required of us (that is God’s, Allah’s, job). Higher beings can forgive us, because they are tasked with that. We can only ask for forgiveness. (And accept it when we are not forgiven.) And we can forgive those who ask us to forgive them.

When they ask us for forgiveness they know that they have wronged us. Maybe we are even surprised because we did not know that they wronged us. So we can thank them that they trust, or hope, us to forgive them. Forgiveness brings more tears to drink.

When we do not know we have wronged a being, we cannot ask for forgiveness. We are not responsible for the sins we do not know we have committed in this life. But we are responsible for asking ourselves whether we have sinned.

Thus we are responsible for asking other beings whether we have wronged them – and then asking them to forgive us.

***

Both may ask whether; ask for; forgive. Both may drink from the wellspring of their tears. Both forgive each other. Discovering – that both wellsprings belong to the same source.

***

We can seek, in this world, companions who feel like us, with whom we have no “outstanding sins” to each other to be asked to forgive or to forgive, who drink tears from the same source. Who are our brothers and sisters, sharing our responsibility.

[grapevine]

It's always upsetting to feel mugged over by anybody, let alone a close friend, so that's a double whammy. Families fall out over similar scenarios, friends who share rent and help themselves to another's food, all very similar situations and born out of taking someone or something for granted.

So on a purely practical level Doug (and once bitten twice shy), any time money's involved, just set out an agreement of terms covering expectations, ie delivery time, the fee and anything else. This is helpful and fair for. both sides. Things can still go wrong of course but it keeps things tighter and is more of an informal business arrangement, which needn't and shouldn't affect the relationship at all.

It sounds as though the relationship's gone sour but will you (try and) get your money back?

[thepainterdoug]

Mike so true, and I am coming back down. Airing this out to this great group has helped me. I took the EST seminars in the 70ies. Werner always said, you need to speak something to make it real. I spoke this to the group and much has sprang ( or sprung if you choose) forward.

Michel, thanks again, its a mind blowing Idea that any of this, any of asking for forgiveness ?, from who? that a who ?,even exists, and that a who even needs to set this thing up as it is or as we believe it is. Yet I cannot think of another way to frame the game?? Not by the earthly language we have created to explain it. Of what use would it be to to not have opposites, good and evil, love and hate. Both need each other

Perfect bliss all the time? yuk. this reminds me of an experience/ will be brief/

I was on an Island off Belize, what we would all call "paradise" from our general worlds. And every morning I would see this Island guy, sitting at a table on the beach watching the sun rise with his head down , in agony of being stuck on this island, cant get off, no money, no whatever. Stuck in what others came to and paid for.. Stuck in paradise.

I have always been nervous about paradise, I have always shunned opulence, large mansions , all of life's trimmings etc. I need a carrot and stick out in front of me at all times. Thats why I am an artist, a song writer and so on. i am never satisfied

blessing all, keep doing gods work. yeah you know what that is.

Oh, Grapevine. no he can keep it, like Judas keeping the silver coins.