The Numbers 37 and 137: Signatures of the Creator

[Irminsül]

Hello everyone!
About eight years ago, I started to develop a fixation with the number 37. This "came out of nowhere" — I hadn’t read anything about this number, nor had I seen any documentaries or videos on the subject.
Later on, through research, I discovered that it’s a special number for all human beings. This is true both in terms of the hard sciences and in metaphysical aspects.
Let me explain why:


The Singular Nature of the Number 37 in Human Biology, Science, and Esotericism

1. In Human Biology

Average Body Temperature: The average human body temperature is 37°C, a central reference point in medicine and physiology. This temperature is essential for maintaining enzyme activity, protein folding, and metabolic processes. A deviation from this value often indicates illness or systemic dysfunction.
Mitochondrial Significance: Mitochondria, the "powerhouses" of the cell, carry their own DNA, which includes 37 genes in the human mitochondrial genome: 13 protein-coding genes, 22 tRNA genes, and 2 rRNA genes. This number is constant across nearly all humans and is essential for oxidative phosphorylation — the process by which ATP (the energy currency of the cell) is produced. Thus, 37 is intimately linked to cellular respiration, energy production, and ultimately, life itself.


2. In Science and Mathematics

Prime Number: 37 is a prime number, indivisible except by 1 and itself. Primes are foundational in mathematics, especially in cryptography, chaos theory, and digital security.
Mathematical Patterns:
Numbers like 111, 222, 333... up to 999 are all divisible by 37, revealing a symmetrical base-10 pattern.
37 also appears in palindromic sequences and digital root studies, sparking interest among mathematicians and number theorists.
It is part of certain magic squares and modular arithmetic systems, often connected with aesthetic or symbolic numerology.
Statistical Attractiveness: In studies where people are asked to choose a number between 1 and 100 at random, 37 is one of the most commonly chosen numbers. This has been observed across different cultures and languages. Psychologists speculate that this is due to its balance between being not too low, not too high, and not obviously patterned. It sits in a “sweet spot” of perceived randomness and uniqueness, which may hint at unconscious biases in human cognition.


3. In Esotericism and Mystical Traditions

Numerological Meaning:
In numerology, 3 + 7 = 10, and 1 + 0 = 1, representing initiation, leadership, creation, and divine unity.
The digits 3 and 7 are also significant individually:
3 = expression, manifestation, creativity
7 = inner wisdom, spiritual depth, mystery
Their union in 37 symbolizes spirit made manifest, or the alignment of heavenly and earthly forces.

Sacred Geometry and Kabbalah:

In certain interpretations of Kabbalistic gematria, 37 is linked with the Hebrew word for "heart" ("לב", lev, value 32) plus the 5 levels of the soul — suggesting an esoteric connection between consciousness and vitality.
Some mystics see 37 as a “doorway” number, bridging the lower material world with the higher spiritual domains.
Symbolic Interpretations:
The number 37 is sometimes described as the "number of the eternal flame", symbolizing a spark of divine energy that sustains life — reflecting its biological importance through mitochondria.
It is also found in ancient numerological codes, including some interpretations of Biblical and Vedic texts, where it represents completion through simplicity and the hidden order of nature.


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And if the number 37 is already incredibly intriguing and fascinating, there’s even more. About five years ago, I also began to feel a spontaneous attraction to the number 137. Once again, this happened without any external trigger — it was intuition, as it came from deep within my inner being.
Imagine my surprise when I began to research this number and discovered that it, too, is extremely special! In this case, it has to do with the very foundation of the Universe we inhabit! It seems that God, His angels, my spiritual guides, my beloved Pleiadians or Venusians — or whoever among them — have been whispering to me mysteries of creation!
And I say this not because I think I’m someone special or because I want to elevate myself. I’m simply sharing something that brings me great joy and fills me with gratitude. Once again, I’m reminded that we are all accompanied and guided.
I will now go on to discuss the unique properties of the number 137:

Quantum Physics Perspective

The fine-structure constant, written α, is defined as the square of the elementary charge divided by four π, the vacuum permittivity, Planck’s constant and the speed of light. Because those dimensional factors cancel, α is pure number. Its best low-energy value hovers near one divided by 137.035 999 206. That seemingly casual figure dictates the splitting of atomic spectral lines, the ground-state velocity of the electron in hydrogen and even the transparency of solid matter to visible light.
A century of ingenuity has chiselled ever-sharper digits into α. The Lamb-shift measurement of 1947 first exposed quantum-electrodynamic corrections; Penning-trap experiments welded the constant to the electron’s magnetic moment; and modern atom interferometers constrain it to parts per trillion. Yet all this precision merely sharpens a puzzle: the Standard Model, so deft at predicting quantum phenomena, offers no logical derivation of α’s magnitude. Why should nature choose this value and not another?
The constant itself is not constant at every energy. As scattering energies climb, virtual particle loops thicken the electromagnetic coupling, so that near the mass of the Z boson α grows to roughly one over 128. That “running” links tabletop chemistry to the hope of grand unification at energies a trillion times higher than any spark on Earth.
Physicists have long hunted for a deeper rationale. Arthur Eddington tried to deduce the number from combinatorial arguments about cosmic populations; Paul Dirac folded it into his large-number hypothesis; string theoreticians embed it in the geometry of extra dimensions; loop-quantum-gravity devotees look for it in spin-network amplitudes. None has yet delivered the coveted first-principles calculation. Wolfgang Pauli, half in jest, once vowed that his opening question for the Creator would be, simply, “Why 137?”

Astrophysics and Cosmology

The constancy of α is more than a curiosity of the lab; it is a prerequisite for carbon-friendly stars. A shift of only a few percent would derail the triple-alpha fusion path that forges the carbon on which chemistry—and therefore biology—depends. Observational astronomers test the stability of the constant by reading the spectra of distant quasars. Clouds of intervening gas leave fingerprint doublets whose separation depends subtly on α. Spectrographs such as ESPRESSO on the Very Large Telescope have compared those fingerprints across eight billion years of look-back time and found no drift larger than one part per million.
Space-based telescopes press the constraint still earlier. The James Webb Space Telescope peers at galaxies less than half a billion years after the Big Bang and finds that the fine-structure constant already matched today’s value. Such stubborn consistency simultaneously frustrates any quest for variability and nourishes anthropic reflection: in a hypothetical multiverse sampling many versions of the constant, intelligent observers could appear only where α sits in the narrow life-friendly band—and we, unsurprisingly, find ourselves in that band.
Historically, Eddington attempted to bind α to the putative number of protons in the universe, while Dirac invoked it in relationships that tied atomic and cosmological scales. Modern surveys—from quasar light to the cosmic microwave background—now limit any drift across the thirteen-plus-billion-year sweep of cosmic history to at most a few parts per million, well below the threshold that would jeopardise carbon chemistry.

Mathematical and Geometrical Echoes

Numbers throw long aesthetic shadows. The golden angle—which governs the phyllotactic spirals of sunflower seeds—measures about 137.5 degrees, tantalisingly close to one over α. In pure mathematics, 137 is the thirty-third prime, a Gaussian prime and a member of the first prime quadruplet. No rigorous bridge connects these curiosities to physics, yet their very presence persuades many that the number stands at a strange confluence of order and enigma.

Esoteric and Kabbalistic Significance

In Hebrew gematria each letter carries a numerical value; add those in קבלה (Kabbalah) and one arrives at 137. Scripture layers further resonance. Ishmael, Levi and Amram each die at that age, and Midrash places Abraham at 137 during the binding of Isaac. For many commentators such patterns turn it into a threshold number, an age or measure at which one domain yields to another.
Modern teachers transpose the vessel-and-light metaphor onto quantum electrodynamics: the photon as the influx of light, the electron as the receptive vessel and α as the handshake that lets one dress the other. The physicist Pauli and psychologist Jung carried that symbolism into the twentieth-century psyche; Pauli’s dreams repeatedly featured the number, which Jung interpreted as a synchronistic bridge between mind and matter. Whether taken literally or as poetic metaphor, the association keeps alive a tradition in which empirical constants serve as gateways to hidden architecture.

Cultural and Interdisciplinary Impact

Richard Feynman famously urged students to write “137” on the blackboard and stare at it until they understood it—an assignment that still awaits completion. Popular-science authors invoke the number as evidence of an unfinished grand quest, and contemporary artists braid it into installations that celebrate the marriage of chaos and order. In this way the integer migrates beyond academia, gaining a quiet celebrity in the wider culture.

Ongoing Research Directions

Experimental frontiers. Ultracold-atom recoil measurements now aim to shave the uncertainty on α below a hundredth of a part per billion, a precision that may clarify the long-standing anomaly in the muon’s magnetic moment. Next-generation thirty-metre-class telescopes promise quasar spectra sensitive enough to test spatial or temporal variations at the half-part-per-million level, while future electron–positron colliders will tighten our grasp of the coupling’s high-energy running.
Theoretical laboratories. String-theory landscapes, emergent-gravity scenarios and digital-physics analogues all explore whether 137 could surface as the numerical residue of deep informational circuitry—perhaps the count of bits on a Planck-scale screen, perhaps the stable fixed point of a renormalisation flow we do not yet fathom


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Let me share one more synchronicity with you. Just before I started putting this report together, I decided to change my computer’s wallpaper — it’s an image of Mount Ararat. While searching for other pictures of this same mountain online, I saw that its height is exactly 5,137 meters!

To conclude, I’d like to share some links to videos and websites where these very special numbers are discussed:


https://www.biblegematria.com/the-mysterious-137.html

https://www.rev310.net/post/137-the-number-of-god-in-scripture-and-science

d6iQrh2TK98

RCSSgxV9qNw


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[leavesoftrees]

Sacred Geometry and Kabbalah:

In certain interpretations of Kabbalistic gematria, 37 is linked with the Hebrew word for "heart" ("לב", lev, value 32) plus the 5 levels of the soul — suggesting an esoteric connection between consciousness and vitality.
Some mystics see 37 as a “doorway” number, bridging the lower material world with the higher spiritual domains.
Symbolic Interpretations:
The number 37 is sometimes described as the "number of the eternal flame", symbolizing a spark of divine energy that sustains life — reflecting its biological importance through mitochondria.
It is also found in ancient numerological codes, including some interpretations of Biblical and Vedic texts, where it represents completion through simplicity and the hidden order of nature.

37 is one of the angles of a Pythagorean triangle - the other 2 being 90 degrees and 53 degrees. So it is associated with the relationship between Isis, Osiris and Horus

37 is the value of Yekhidah the I AM the Supreme Self seated in Kether on the Tree of life

37 is the value of HBl. (Abel killed by his brother Cain)

Multiples of 37 are also interesting to explore

[Irminsül]

Hello, leavesoftrees! Thank you so much for the information you’re sharing. I had no idea about any of that. The relationship between Hebrew terms and mathematics is truly fascinating. I feel like if the Avalonian Jim Duyer sees this thread, he’ll probably have some interesting insight to contribute. I’ve been studying Kabbalah for a little over a year now, and I find it incredible to discover all the knowledge contained within that mystical discipline. One of the books I’m currently reading is “The Hebraic Tongue Restored” by Antoine Fabre d'Olivet.

Since you mentioned Abel, I’m sharing two very beautiful and tragic paintings of him. The first is by the painter Elihu Vedder, and the second is by Léon Bonnat.


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[leavesoftrees]

thanks Irminsul. For the paintings of Abel. I had never seen them before
I forgot to mention that the gematria of Qabalah QBLH is 137

If you like gematria look at this. It will keep you going for a few decades. Also try the Magical language by the same author and on Internet archive

https://archive.org/details/the-gematria-notebooks-of-paul-foster-case

[Dorjezigzag]

Wolfgang Ernst Pauli’s fascination with 137 blended into his collaboration with Carl Jung. Jung and Pauli explored synchronicity, the idea that certain coincidences are meaningful connections between psyche and matter.

“The fine-structure constant 1/137 appears to me as a symbol of the mystery of the interconnection of the physical constants and thus of the whole of physics. [...] One could call it a ‘God’s number’ or ‘archetypal number.’”
(Atom and Archetype, p. 195)

In their extensive correspondence, Jung recorded how Pauli’s dreams often had symbols of unity, splitting, or ‘in-between’ states. He interpreted 137 as an archetype of incompleteness or the unfinished bridge between quantum physics and deeper wholeness. In other words, Pauli’s unconscious repeatedly threw up symbols that Pauli (and Jung) linked back to 137 as a symbol of an unresolved puzzle.

Pauli was also fascinated by the fact that some Kabbalistic traditions link Hebrew gematria to numbers. He found it curious that the Hebrew word Kabbalah has the numerical value 137. (Actually, there’s scholarly debate about this, but it’s something Pauli noted in discussions with Jung and others.)

When Pauli died in 1958, he was hospitalised in Zurich. Reportedly, he was disturbed when he learned his hospital room number was 137. He told a visitor (Heisenberg, in some versions) that he knew it was a bad sign, and indeed, he died not long after.
This is documented in various biographies and Jungian accounts.

Recommended reading:

137: Jung, Pauli, and the Pursuit of a Scientific Obsession

Arthur I. Miller

https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/S/compressed.photo.goodreads.com/books/1394323385i/6656895.jpg

[Irminsül]

thanks Irminsul. For the paintings of Abel. I had never seen them before
I forgot to mention that the gematria of Qabalah QBLH is 137

If you like gematria look at this. It will keep you going for a few decades. Also try the Magical language by the same author and on Internet archive

https://archive.org/details/the-gematria-notebooks-of-paul-foster-case

Thank you so much as well for sharing this book! It looks incredibly interesting. I often reflect on how crazy it is that in this life there are so many branches of knowledge, and within each of those branches, one can go deeper and deeper to incredibly exhaustive levels.

There are disciplines that can take an entire lifetime of work, and even then, one might still need another 20 or 40 years to get to the bottom of it. And even more, in some disciplines, philosophies, or whatever it may be — even all that still isn't enough.

Examples of that might be yoga, whose ultimate goal is *samadhi* — a state that only a handful of humans reach each century.

[Irminsül]

Hi Dorjezigzag! Thanks for your contribution! Honestly, I didn’t know who Pauli was. From what I’ve seen, he was one of the founders of quantum mechanics and a Nobel Prize winner in physics, no less haha. It clearly means something that someone of his stature became obsessed with the number 137. What caught my attention was that he took the number in his hospital room as a bad omen. Maybe it was because of the context he was in. I’m going to look into Jung and his relationship with 137, and if anything comes up, I’ll come back and share more thoughts on it.

[Merkaba360]

137 - yes the process of creation. 137 is a prime number, which are like irreducible atoms, the bedrock that other numbers are built from.

1 = Source - think of it as the singularity or the heart charka. Then Source seemingly splits itself into a yin yang duality - the third eye (male) and the sacral chakra (female). now the 1 became 3.

The chakras are a prism as well as fractal. The third eye and sacral chakra then split again like a fractal. Now there is 3 chakras above and 3 below the heart chakra, totaling 7. 1-3-7

Also, those digits are all prime as well. Well, 1 isnt a prime number according to their definition, but it isn't composite either. Its the identity number (self). That origin point is essentially prime in my mind as we could loosen the definition. Optimus prime, being the ORIGIN of the transformers. lol Maybe we could say 1 is the only Super prime number.

137 contains the singularity like Source, can't be broken down any further. And it also represents the progression or emergence of creation from source 1 --> 3 --> 7. The 3 steps of the mitosis of creation.

And then on the 7th day god rested, because the cycle of 7 was complete and reality could sustain itself with a rendering loop/cycle. cycles of 7 or 8, the octave.
Perhaps we could think of it as 3 states of existence. 1 = Singularity/Unity/Wholeness/Source, 3 = Trinity, or the duality + unity, 7 = infinity(cycle/loop), 2 trinities + unity.
All things (infinity) can be created from the 7 sounds, 7 light rays, etc. the 7 vibrations.

In terms of colors , there is White (unity or all colors in balance), RGB (trinity) or is it Red/Yellow/Blue primary colors?, and the Rainbow (infinity).

I suppose reaching the 33rd level of freemasonry (33rd prime number) would be the 33rd step of evolution = 137. That seems like a completion of totality (all 3 states).

[Valle]

"YHWH".. "let there be light" ;)
(π*7)/( π^7) = 1/137

Psalm 137: How Shall We Sing the Lord's Song?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kBFR9w9Rsvg

[Michel Leclerc]

Tack så mycket, Valle.

The presence of 1, 3 and 4 in 7.. How striking is that equation!

***

In the Zohar there is a comment on that psalm stating that the harpists of the Temple cut off their thumbs so as not to be able to play the sacred songs in front of the Babylonian King (and the hanging the harps on the willows would be a euphemistic formulation of what happened). I think that this automutilation was in itself a “heroic” embellishment of something more brutal and mundane: the new masters forced them to worship Babylon’s divinities by preventing them to play their own songs of worship. Whoever sang the wrong song got a limb cut off.

[Michel Leclerc]

Thank you Irminsül for the thread and the personal remarks.

Twice in the course of the writing of a rather longish epic poem (once at the end of the 90s, then again a year ago) I was strangely compelled and/or reminded to add to a whole of 36 strophes a 37th strophe. Remarkable however was that, each strophe of the poem consisting of 18 verses (six units of three), the 36-strophe unit counted 648, and the 37-strophe unit 666 verses. Pondering this "mystery” and writing the 37th strophes, it somehow was conveyed to me that 666 was not the Adversary’s number but the Saviour’s – or, in other words, the number qualifying the Saviour as being (also) the Saviour of the Adversary (cf. Yezidism).

[Michel Leclerc]

Fabre d’Olivet.

His role extends to being an “occult” influence on the historical linguists who as from the beginning of the 19th century started to understand the relationship between the Semitic and Indo-European languages. There were not many of them – because there was such a thing as anti-Semitism (meaning rejection of the Semitic cultures: the Arabic one, the Aramaean one, the Hebraic one), and that played also against progress in understanding the relationship between Egyptian and Semitic (in recognising which “Biblical religious scholarship” was not exactly helpful). I have written about this elsewhere on PA, more specifically about one of the first serious breakthroughs realised by the Danish linguist Hermann Möller. The main point to be raised here is that this has led to the Nostratic hypothesis realising that there exists a profound kinship among Indo-European, Semitic-Hamitic-Chadic, Altaic (Turkic, Mongolian, Korean, Japanese), Uralic (Finnish, Hungarian,...), Dravidian (Tamil, Telugu, Kannada, Malayalam..) and quite a few languages from the Caucasus – etc.

This as introductory note to a cautionary remark on the practice of Kabbalah. It is of importance to realise that the Indian civilisation (in its Indo-European and Dravidian wings) boasts an "esoterical” language philosophy analogous to what we know as the Kabbalah (cf. Fabre d'Olivet), with as striking correspondences the Tree of Life/Purusha, sets of sacred letters/syllables, sets of sacred numbers. These very conspicuous traditions are not the only ones. (Remnants of) such systems exist elsewhere: in full swing in the Arabic "esoterical linguistic" tradition of course, but also in the rune alphabet, and, indeed, probably in the esoterical sense of the Greek gematria, and certainly in the Egyptian one.

Why am I emphasising this? Because the very nature of the Nostratic linguistic kinship and the wide-spread nature of “esoterical linguistics” within the Nostratic ”realm” (but not only there — let us think of the Sinitic traditions (China, Tibet,...), the Amerindian ones and the Sub-Saharan African ones... — compels us to consider the significance of all this at the Nostratic level – and beyond.

It is when we profoundly understand that the (many) words for "water" for instance almost universally chime with each other, or for "milk", or for "father" etc., or in other words that Fabre d‘Olivet is right but (at least) at the Nostratic level, – that we get closer to the meaning of the divine nature of language; and hence humanity, itself. Thereby reaching levels at which numerological and “automatic” associations of letters with numbers appear as too recent, and even utilitarian almost.

Our very names are sacred – or at least more so than the sums of the number values of their letters.

[Irminsül]

137 - yes the process of creation. 137 is a prime number, which are like irreducible atoms, the bedrock that other numbers are built from.

1 = Source - think of it as the singularity or the heart charka. Then Source seemingly splits itself into a yin yang duality - the third eye (male) and the sacral chakra (female). now the 1 became 3.

The chakras are a prism as well as fractal. The third eye and sacral chakra then split again like a fractal. Now there is 3 chakras above and 3 below the heart chakra, totaling 7. 1-3-7

Also, those digits are all prime as well. Well, 1 isnt a prime number according to their definition, but it isn't composite either. Its the identity number (self). That origin point is essentially prime in my mind as we could loosen the definition. Optimus prime, being the ORIGIN of the transformers. lol Maybe we could say 1 is the only Super prime number.

137 contains the singularity like Source, can't be broken down any further. And it also represents the progression or emergence of creation from source 1 --> 3 --> 7. The 3 steps of the mitosis of creation.

And then on the 7th day god rested, because the cycle of 7 was complete and reality could sustain itself with a rendering loop/cycle. cycles of 7 or 8, the octave.
Perhaps we could think of it as 3 states of existence. 1 = Singularity/Unity/Wholeness/Source, 3 = Trinity, or the duality + unity, 7 = infinity(cycle/loop), 2 trinities + unity.
All things (infinity) can be created from the 7 sounds, 7 light rays, etc. the 7 vibrations.

In terms of colors , there is White (unity or all colors in balance), RGB (trinity) or is it Red/Yellow/Blue primary colors?, and the Rainbow (infinity).

I suppose reaching the 33rd level of freemasonry (33rd prime number) would be the 33rd step of evolution = 137. That seems like a completion of totality (all 3 states).


Hello, Merkaba360! I thought your approach to 137 and the chakras was excellent — it never would’ve occurred to me! And I believe what you said is totally valid. Placing the Anahata chakra (the heart chakra) as the main center of importance is a very accurate insight. You reminded me of a study conducted years ago by some doctors. Their project is called "Science of the Heart." I’m attaching the video about it here, the official one. It has 1,37 seconds!


pp-r_f8-qz8

Regarding what you said about mitosis, here’s what I found:

NUMBER 1
Clear appearances:

A mother cell gives rise to two daughter cells at the end of mitosis. Here, the “1” represents the original unity.

In many cycles, there is a single copy of DNA (haploid) before duplication.

The cell cycle is one singular process with consecutive phases (G1, S, G2, M).

One bipolar mitotic spindle forms per cell.

In metaphase, each chromosome aligns in a single equatorial line.

Interpretation:
The “1” represents unity, beginning, originality, and symmetry in cellular biology.

NUMBER 3
Notable appearances:

The main phases of interphase (before mitosis) are: G1, S, and G2 → 3 phases.

Each microtubule triplet forms a centriole → two centrioles in one centrosome = 2x3 = 6 triplets.

In the mitotic spindle, there are 3 types of microtubules:

Astral

Interpolar

Kinetochore

In cell signaling and cycle control, regulatory triads frequently appear (e.g., CDK-cyclin-inhibitor).

Interpretation:
The “3” appears as an organizational structure, indicating division into three subcomponents or functional trinities.

NUMBER 7
This number is harder to directly associate with mitotic events in a literal way, but let’s explore more deeply.

Exploration:

Duration and phases of the cycle:
In some species, certain cell cycles (in animal tissues) last approximately 7 hours, though this isn’t universal.

Structural complexity:
Reports describe 7 key proteins in complexes like cohesin or condensin, essential for chromosomal structure during mitosis.

Cohesin can consist of at least 4–5 subunits, and with cofactors it may reach 7 functional components.

In some organisms:

In Saccharomyces cerevisiae (yeast), there are 7 major checkpoints throughout the cell cycle (G1/S, G2/M, DNA damage, spindle assembly, etc.).

Genetic regulation:

Some key regulatory genes (like CDK1) are associated with cyclin families that can be grouped into around 7 functional classes depending on the cellular context.

No doubt that God (the CREATOR — whether called Ishvara, Ein Sof, ABBA, Elohei Kedem, etc.) resting on the seventh day is highly significant and symbolic. I am a devoted student of the Abrahamic religions and I believe there’s a massive wealth of knowledge there. I’ve delved into the study of the Torah, the Christian Gnostic gospels, and I still plan to go deeper into the mystical side of Islam — Sufism. In Christianity, Islam, and Judaism, the numbers 3 and 7 hold very prominent and sacred roles. I’ll go deeper into that later. Thanks for your comment — it gave me the opening to share all of this.

Clearly, the fact that the rainbow has 7 colors is no accident either — it's causal. I’m sure there’s more to investigate about the phenomenon of light and these sequences (37 or 137). If I find something else on this, I’ll share it later.

And lastly, the topic of secret societies and numbers is truly intriguing. If there are awakened and “illuminated” people in this world, we definitely have to refer to the secret societies. On that note, I’ll tell you I spent 3 years in a Templar group called Argentum, but I left because there were several things I didn’t agree with. My fellow Templars at the time were great people — kind and fun. But I felt it wasn’t the right place for me, and I haven’t belonged to that group for about 3 years now.

Since you gave me the opening (haha) to talk about it, I’ll share some information on these numbers and the lodges or brotherhoods:

The numbers 1, 3, and 7 hold strong symbolic meaning and relevance in various esoteric and mystical traditions, including Freemasonry, Rosicrucianism, and — to a lesser extent — the historical Templars (although many modern ideas about the Templars stem from later esoteric reinterpretations, not their original practices).

Let’s break it down:

1. Number 1 – Unity, Divine Principle

Freemasonry: Represents unity, the supreme principle, the Great Architect of the Universe. The number 1 is tied to the idea of origin — from which all things emanate.

Rosicrucians: The 1 represents the One — the source of all that is manifested. It is connected with the divine monad, the original spiritual principle.

Templars: Though not directly associated with the number 1 in medieval sources, in later esoteric reinterpretations it’s linked with God as the center and origin of the Templar mission.

2. Number 3 – Trinity, Balance and Harmony

Freemasonry: Highly significant. The 3 is the number of the apprentice, the master, and many ritual elements:

Three main degrees: Apprentice, Fellow Craft, Master.

Three great lights: the compass, the square, and the sacred book.

Three pillars: Wisdom, Strength, and Beauty.

Symbolizes the triangle, a sacred geometric form.

Rosicrucians: Represents the spiritual trinity (father-son-spirit), and is also associated with the balance of body-mind-spirit.

Templars: The number 3 is not central in historical Templar tradition, but in modern esoteric contexts, it relates to the Christian Trinity or the vows of poverty, chastity, and obedience.

3. Number 7 – Perfection, Spiritual Wisdom

Freemasonry: A sacred number par excellence. Linked with:

The 7 degrees in many Masonic branches.

The 7 steps of the stairway of wisdom in some rites.

The 7 classical planets, the 7 days of creation.

Rosicrucians: Extremely important:

7 chakras, 7 levels of the soul, 7 planets.

In many Rosicrucian texts, the soul ascends in 7 stages.

Templars: In later esoteric history (especially in 19th- and 20th-century occult writings), 7 is mentioned as a number of initiation or spiritual perfection. But there’s no direct evidence of its use in the original order.

Why are these numbers so symbolic?
Many of these numbers come from Pythagorean, Hermetic, Biblical, and Kabbalistic traditions — all of which deeply influence Western esoteric thought:

1 → the All, the Source.

3 → trinity, balance, perfect triangle.

7 → number of divine perfection; appears in many cultures and religions (7 Islamic heavens, 7 biblical days, 7 lower sefirot in Kabbalah, etc.).


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[leavesoftrees]

Fabre d’Olivet.

This as introductory note to a cautionary remark on the practice of Kabbalah. It is of importance to realise that the Indian civilisation (in its Indo-European and Dravidian wings) boasts an "esoterical” language philosophy analogous to what we know as the Kabbalah (cf. Fabre d'Olivet), with as striking correspondences the Tree of Life/Purusha, sets of sacred letters/syllables, sets of sacred numbers. These very conspicuous traditions are not the only ones. (Remnants of) such systems exist elsewhere: in full swing in the Arabic "esoterical linguistic" tradition of course, but also in the rune alphabet, and, indeed, probably in the esoterical sense of the Greek gematria, and certainly in the Egyptian one.

Why am I emphasising this? Because the very nature of the Nostratic linguistic kinship and the wide-spread nature of “esoterical linguistics” within the Nostratic ”realm” (but not only there — let us think of the Sinitic traditions (China, Tibet,...), the Amerindian ones and the Sub-Saharan African ones... — compels us to consider the significance of all this at the Nostratic level – and beyond.

It is when we profoundly understand that the (many) words for "water" for instance almost universally chime with each other, or for "milk", or for "father" etc., or in other words that Fabre d‘Olivet is right but (at least) at the Nostratic level, – that we get closer to the meaning of the divine nature of language; and hence humanity, itself. Thereby reaching levels at which numerological and “automatic” associations of letters with numbers appear as too recent, and even utilitarian almost.

Our very names are sacred – or at least more so than the sums of the number values of their letters.

Hi Michael do you have more information about these traditions that parallel Kabalah?

[Irminsül]

Thank you Irminsül for the thread and the personal remarks.

Twice in the course of the writing of a rather longish epic poem (once at the end of the 90s, then again a year ago) I was strangely compelled and/or reminded to add to a whole of 36 strophes a 37th strophe. Remarkable however was that, each strophe of the poem consisting of 18 verses (six units of three), the 36-strophe unit counted 648, and the 37-strophe unit 666 verses. Pondering this "mystery” and writing the 37th strophes, it somehow was conveyed to me that 666 was not the Adversary’s number but the Saviour’s – or, in other words, the number qualifying the Saviour as being (also) the Saviour of the Adversary (cf. Yezidism).


Hello Michel! Thank you for your valuable contributions and for sharing your personal experience!

I actually mentioned earlier in this thread that I was a Templar for three years. Among the many things we were taught was that the number of the “enemy” (Shaytan) is not 666.
It’s great that you bring that up, because it really seems to be the case.

On another note, what you're saying about understanding languages is fascinating. I also find language to be something incredible. For example, these days I’ve been diving deeper into Sumerian, since for years I’ve been studying Hebrew.
It’s worth mentioning here that initiates in secret lodges or brotherhoods often use Hebrew for their magical rituals. Apparently, Hebrew holds a great deal of power within itself.
I once saw on the YouTube channel of an alleged contactee that this Universe was created by God through the Hebrew alphabet. I also saw on Instagram that the 22 letters of Hebrew are like celestial flames that, when combined, can create or destroy. That’s why Western esoteric writings always reference the Kabbalah.

And a wonderful synchronicity: these days I’ve been reading the book “The Hebraic Tongue Restored” by Fabre d’Olivet.
It’s clear that he was a great man and an initiate into the mysteries of humanity. His analyses are very revealing and inspire one to keep growing in knowledge.




55400

[Irminsül]

Fabre d’Olivet.

His role extends to being an “occult” influence on the historical linguists who as from the beginning of the 19th century started to understand the relationship between the Semitic and Indo-European languages. There were not many of them – because there was such a thing as anti-Semitism (meaning rejection of the Semitic cultures: the Arabic one, the Aramaean one, the Hebraic one), and that played also against progress in understanding the relationship between Egyptian and Semitic (in recognising which “Biblical religious scholarship” was not exactly helpful). I have written about this elsewhere on PA, more specifically about one of the first serious breakthroughs realised by the Danish linguist Hermann Möller. The main point to be raised here is that this has led to the Nostratic hypothesis realising that there exists a profound kinship among Indo-European, Semitic-Hamitic-Chadic, Altaic (Turkic, Mongolian, Korean, Japanese), Uralic (Finnish, Hungarian,...), Dravidian (Tamil, Telugu, Kannada, Malayalam..) and quite a few languages from the Caucasus – etc.

This as introductory note to a cautionary remark on the practice of Kabbalah. It is of importance to realise that the Indian civilisation (in its Indo-European and Dravidian wings) boasts an "esoterical” language philosophy analogous to what we know as the Kabbalah (cf. Fabre d'Olivet), with as striking correspondences the Tree of Life/Purusha, sets of sacred letters/syllables, sets of sacred numbers. These very conspicuous traditions are not the only ones. (Remnants of) such systems exist elsewhere: in full swing in the Arabic "esoterical linguistic" tradition of course, but also in the rune alphabet, and, indeed, probably in the esoterical sense of the Greek gematria, and certainly in the Egyptian one.

Why am I emphasising this? Because the very nature of the Nostratic linguistic kinship and the wide-spread nature of “esoterical linguistics” within the Nostratic ”realm” (but not only there — let us think of the Sinitic traditions (China, Tibet,...), the Amerindian ones and the Sub-Saharan African ones... — compels us to consider the significance of all this at the Nostratic level – and beyond.

It is when we profoundly understand that the (many) words for "water" for instance almost universally chime with each other, or for "milk", or for "father" etc., or in other words that Fabre d‘Olivet is right but (at least) at the Nostratic level, – that we get closer to the meaning of the divine nature of language; and hence humanity, itself. Thereby reaching levels at which numerological and “automatic” associations of letters with numbers appear as too recent, and even utilitarian almost.

Our very names are sacred – or at least more so than the sums of the number values of their letters.


From what I understand, the Nostratic theory has very low acceptance in the academic world. What you contributed is a very good point, and it’s great that people visiting a thread feel encouraged to share their opinions or ideas about it.
Apparently, the Proto-Indo-European linguistic hypothesis makes more sense. In fact, I’ve also studied a bit about it, although not in great depth. In any case, philologists, etymologists, and linguists still have many gaps in their fields of research. There are indeed several languages that, to this day, remain a mystery in terms of how they were spoken, what their alphabets meant, or even where they originated from. Such is the case of Sumerian. Let me give you some examples of what I mean regarding Sumerian—words for which we have absolutely no idea what they mean:


1. rimxu (𒇽𒈥𒌑)
Context: Found in glosses of lexical lists (like to‑kun), without an Akkadian translation.

Status: Completely unknown meaning.

2. namsumun (𒉆𒌀)
Context: A verb found in literary texts—possibly meaning “to be old/decrepit,” though its exact semantic origin remains debated.

3. en-na (𒂗𒈾)
Context: Appears as a preposition in syntactic constructions and lexical glossaries (e.g. meaning “until” or “toward”), but its etymological origin is unknown.

4. mu (𒈬)
Context: Common gloss in lexical texts, often meaning “name” or “by,” but its deeper semantic roots are unclear.

5. nam- (𒉆‑)
Context: A prefix used to form abstract nouns (e.g., “nam-lugal” = kingship), found in administrative and lexical texts, with an unclear original meaning.

6. igi-n-gál (𒄑𒄄‑𒃻𒃵)
Context: Used in Babylonian mathematical texts to denote a reciprocal (e.g., “1/2”), but the literal meaning of the phrase in Sumerian is still not fully explained.

7. igi-te-en (𒄑𒄄‑𒋼𒂅)
Context: Another mathematical term meaning “ratio” or “proportion,” found in metrological documents, but with uncertain semantic origin.

8. abūšin (𒀊𒁍𒁕𒅖𒅋)
Context: Found in bilingual Sumerian-Akkadian word lists. Akkadian glosses it as abūbu (“flood”), indicating that even ancient scribes may have lost its Sumerian meaning.

9. gir (𒄀𒊒)
Context: Seen in the Sumerian autonym eme-gir (“the native language”), used in phonetic glosses and lexical lists, but the base meaning of gir is still speculative.

10. hursag (𒄩𒌑𒊒)
Context: Appears in early inscriptions from Nippur and in exorcistic or divine hymns; sometimes interpreted as “mountain” or “mountaintop,” though the precise sense remains unclear.

Summary

The first five (e.g. rimxu, en-na, mu, nam-, namsumun) mainly occur in lexical lists and glosses, with no Akkadian equivalents and no clear meanings.

igi-n-gál and igi-te-en are seen in mathematical contexts, well-documented in Babylonian scribal culture, but semantically opaque in Sumerian.

abūšin is an archaic word whose meaning had already faded by the time of bilingual lists.

gir and hursag have partial interpretations, but are still not well understood semantically.

It's interesting that you say names, in some aspects, contain something higher than numbers. But you have to remember that this universe we inhabit was encoded and structured with numbers, sacred sequences, golden patterns, and so on. Without a doubt, language plays a key role in unraveling the quintessence of the reality we live in. I believe these are complementary fields.


I want to clarify that I use the swastika many times because it is a sacred symbol. This symbol even predates its use in India. I mention this because in my images you will see that I use swastikas more than once, and that is simply the reason why



55402

[Merkaba360]

Irminsul - Thanks for your kind words and glad you got something from it. I'm quite busy now so not going to respond to what you shared. But i'll quick give you some more to keep you busy lol.

55403

You can find this on the website: in2infinity
Great website.

I have to re read their site for their explanation of it. But the pic seems to show that those 3 (musical) frequencies/ratios might correspond to the RGB colors and the superposition of those form the 7 rainbow colors. Although that could be totally wrong, i need time to figure it out.

The 7 points where the wave intersects the axis shows the spacing of the 7 rainbow colors on the spectrum. If i understood them correctly, the website said this is why not all 7 colors have the same range or bandwidth. Orange and yellow are closer together and supposedly have a smaller range of frequencies on the visible light spectrum.

I dont understand music theory but want to study it some day, so i can better understand the connection here between music harmonics , musical scale and this color spectrum/scale. I assume they must be the same thing mathematically, just light scale vs sound scale. As above (light) , so below (sound).

Can we think of the balance point, the black line as the point of perception? Like perception takes place when the wave crosses the center line. hmm

I dont understand how RGB is used in electronics to create all colors. I was trying to figure out if that is what they are trying to show in the diagram as well. 3 frequencies, which combine to create 7. That must be right, but I dont get how say orange would be made at that point. No blue + some green + much red = Orange? lol Not sure what the word "Tone" means with the arrow in the image as well.

I gotta run this through AI , and have it explain the RGB thing too.

Not sure why its Cyan and Blue. I thought it would be ROYGBIV. Indigo? The positions seem to be about right for the chakra positions, just dont know if there is a minor cyan chakra? The indigo third eye chakra would be between blue and violet.

Anyway , gotta run. Maybe you'll see things i didn't. I liked your response and will think over what u said and response another time. Keep up the great work to you and others on this thread.

PS . that website can keep you busy for a long time lol. Beware !! Its full of gems, although I cant understand everything as its not all explained clearly.

[Michel Leclerc]

Fabre d’Olivet.

This as introductory note to a cautionary remark on the practice of Kabbalah. It is of importance to realise that the Indian civilisation (in its Indo-European and Dravidian wings) boasts an "esoterical” language philosophy analogous to what we know as the Kabbalah (cf. Fabre d'Olivet), with as striking correspondences the Tree of Life/Purusha, sets of sacred letters/syllables, sets of sacred numbers. These very conspicuous traditions are not the only ones. (Remnants of) such systems exist elsewhere: in full swing in the Arabic "esoterical linguistic" tradition of course, but also in the rune alphabet, and, indeed, probably in the esoterical sense of the Greek gematria, and certainly in the Egyptian one.

(...)

.

Hi Michael do you have more information about these traditions that parallel Kabalah?

Forgive me Irminsül, but I do not have "information". I do have some knowledge, however.
If you want to reach a level at which understanding comes fluidly (I do think this is the case, reading your other contributions), then I would advise you to "suspend judgment” (the Husserlian epochè) and first study more. If you think that given the duration of my familiarity with these topics, I might be of help, please consider the following. I studied Indo-European (both many daughter languages and what is now called Proto-Indo-European) in the early 70s, then learned Persian and "Northern Indian” (Hindi/Urdu and Punjabi) out of interest (wanting to learn and identify with the linguistic cultures of my friends), went back to University and studied those languages as well as Sanskrit. More or less at the same time (mid 70s) I visited Palestine (my girlfriend being Jewish) and was confronted with two Semitic languages and scripts (and with what I now call “Zionist antisemitism”): Arabic and Hebrew. Life taught me, there and then, to love Arabic language and culture and to be wary of (Israeli) Hebrew. As a hobby I learnt Arabo-Persian-Urdu-Ottoman calligraphy. Obviously I also learnt to read and write the Sanskrit (and Hindi) Devanagari script. My development as a poet which had started in the mid-60s had earned me the acquaintance and in a way the “guru mastership” of an avant-garde poet and painter who was a ‘"Golden Rosicrucian” (A.M.O.R.C.) so that we spoke about the late 19th-century French occult tradition and by that road about Fabre d’Olivet (whom I studied in the 90s). Through him I was initiated into a Sufi congregation (being baptised Roman Catholic but by then a free-thinker) at 20. The end of the 70s brought a lasting interest in the Persian and Indian traditions – and I started reading a major "Orientalist” of the Western tradition, Alain Daniélou (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alain_Daniélou), the first great specialist of Indian music (he brought Ravi Shankar to the West), translator of Dravidian literature into French, Shivaite. I understood Shivaism at its core (so that, for many reasons, I would call myself Christian, Muslim ánd Shivaite). Another great Frenchman, Henri Corbin (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_Corbin), was the specialist on Shiism and Persian philosophy. Forgive me for being so plethoric — the are more things to be said, not about me, but about what these activities (this work, you know what I mean) allowed me to understand: that the Indian tradition of "esoterical psychology" and metaphysics is (at least) quite comparable with the Kabbalah. Their comparability and "equidistance" if I may say, can be understood also from the point if view of other cultures. Christian mysticism – which is not derivative but quite the original source itself – and our familiarity with it – think of Juan de la Cruz yourself, and the “Northern mystics” in Europe – Hadewych in Dutch culture, Meister Eckhart in German culture etc. ———— come together into the fundamental insight that there is not one originator tradition among present-day civilisations – or, in other words, that they are all equally original and/or derivative. That is the reason why I called my remark cautionary: the temptation is great, especially through French occultism but more so through "Old Testament oriented Christianity”, to reserve the real spiritual messages for the “Hebrew line”; I am convinced, at least as far as I am concerned, that this should be balanced by other channels, and the Indian is then the most challenging, because of the richness of its forms and because of its occult embodiment of Golden Mean symbolism. The cautionary remark is also there because I honestly think that we should not be eclectic. Eclecticism arises hen we just collate “information” and, at best, stay in the realm of wonder and fascination. You yourself feel you are in contact with “familiars” who give experiential weight to your statements without which you would not even dare to make them. The proof in the pudding is in the eating – and we should only eat pudding. A living tradition is the people who live in it, are permeated by it. It is this familiarity "in the flesh" so to speak which we should bring to the spiritual subjects that call us to them. That means, “practically”, never-ending work. Learning the languages, parsing and reading the texts, meditate them etc. But of course you know that – and maybe we never leave the “stage of wonder” — but there comes warmth with the familiarity and the seventh chakra (the Holy Heart) opens and smiles.
A final note: I do not know whether you know (a little bit) Alexandre Grothendieck (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_Grothendieck), the French-German mathematician who is considered the most influential mathematician of the XXth century. He died not too long ago, living as a hermit in Cathare country, not only having revolutionised mathematics but also having written what is thought of as more than 100,000 (!) pages of meditative, philosophical manuscript. I only have a very faint idea of his development of the concept of topos, which somehow seems to amount to a gigantic enlargement of the basic assumptions of topology – but he knocks at my door with his quite startling ideas that behind all science, and hence behind all formalisation of knowledge i.e. behind mathematics (even specifically number theory etc.) there is... language. Mathematics, he says, arise from “naming”. The human is because he finds names for beings: from ants to ghosts, from rainbows to “mathematical beings” (as he calls concepts) – what God asked Adam to do, or what is behind Vāc in Indian metaphysics. But: not as an imposing our names on them, but as a humble perceiving these names because the beings-to-be-named whisper their names into our ears when we listen because we are silent.

p.s.: forgive me for the following little criticism: do not repeat the fashionable academic consensus about Nostratic. Would you not agree to be critical about any mainstream academic consensus? Well, if you are, then be as well about Nostratic (or the beyond-Nostratic that I call Vostratic). Most academic linguists are experts of a small domain. They lack the overview. The following reference works should be studied by who wants to delve into the matter.

The work of the Dolgopolsky team. (https://www.repository.cam.ac.uk/items/af09c345-2382-497e-a958-25f9283cd8a2)

The work of Allan Bomhard. (https://brill.com/display/title/17810?srsltid=AfmBOopvASVb0SV5GcuCbHkiIxMp-DorrNSvtLqRDDwuNeWWfBEon2UW)

And the work of the first brave explorer, Hermann Möller (https://archive.org/details/VergleichendesIndogermanischSemitischesWorterbuch/page/n47/mode/2up).

Be well on your quest.

[Irminsül]

Fabre d’Olivet.

This as introductory note to a cautionary remark on the practice of Kabbalah. It is of importance to realise that the Indian civilisation (in its Indo-European and Dravidian wings) boasts an "esoterical” language philosophy analogous to what we know as the Kabbalah (cf. Fabre d'Olivet), with as striking correspondences the Tree of Life/Purusha, sets of sacred letters/syllables, sets of sacred numbers. These very conspicuous traditions are not the only ones. (Remnants of) such systems exist elsewhere: in full swing in the Arabic "esoterical linguistic" tradition of course, but also in the rune alphabet, and, indeed, probably in the esoterical sense of the Greek gematria, and certainly in the Egyptian one.

(...)

.

Hi Michael do you have more information about these traditions that parallel Kabalah?

Forgive me Irminsül, but I do not have "information". I do have some knowledge, however.
If you want to reach a level at which understanding comes fluidly (I do think this is the case, reading your other contributions), then I would advise you to "suspend judgment” (the Husserlian epochè) and first study more. If you think that given the duration of my familiarity with these topics, I might be of help, please consider the following. I studied Indo-European (both many daughter languages and what is now called Proto-Indo-European) in the early 70s, then learned Persian and "Northern Indian” (Hindi/Urdu and Punjabi) out of interest (wanting to learn and identify with the linguistic cultures of y friends), went back to University and studied those languages as well as Sanskrit. More or less at the same time (mid 70s) I visited Palestine (my girlfriend being Jewish) and was confronted with two Semitic languages and scripts (and with what I now call “Zionist antisemitism): Arabic and Hebrew. Life taught me, there and then, to love Arabic language and culture and to be wary of (Israeli) Hebrew. As a hobby I learnt Arabo-Persian-Urdu-Ottoman calligraphy. Obviously I also learnt to read and write the Sanskrit (and Hindi) Devanagari script. My development as a poet which had started in the mid-60s had earned me the acquaintance and in a way the “guru mastership” of an avant-garde poet and painter who was a ‘"Golden Rosicrucian” (A.M.O.R.C.) so that we spoke about the late 19th-century French occult tradition and by that road about Fabre d’Olivet (whom I studied in the 90s). Through him I was initiated into a Sufi congregation (being baptised Roman Catholic but by then a free-thinker) at 20. The end of the 70s brought a lasting interest in the Persian and Indian traditions – and I started reading a major "Orientalist” of the Western tradition, Alain Daniélou, the first great specialist of Indian music (he brought Ravi Shankar to the West), translator of Dravidian literature into French, Shivaite. I understood Shivaism at its core (sp that, for many reasons, I would call myself Christian, Muslim and Shivaite). Another great Frenchman, Henri Corbin, was the specialist on Shiism and Persian philosophy. Forgive me for being so plethoric — the are more things to be said, not about me, but about what these activities (this work, you know what I mean) allowed me to understand: that the Indian tradition of "esoterical psychology" and metaphysics is (at least) quite comparable with the Kabbalah. Their comparability and "equidistance" if I may say, can be understood also from the point if view of other cultures. Christian mysticism – which is not derivative but quite the original source itself – and our familiarity with it – think of Juan de la Cruz yourself, and the “Northern mystics” in Europe – Hadewych in Dutch culture, Meister Eckhart in German culture etc. ———— come together into the fundamental insight that there is not one originator tradition among present-day civilisations – or, in other words, that they are all equally original and/or derivative. That is the reason why I called my remark cautionary: the temptation is great, especially through French occultism but more so through "Old Testament oriented Christianity”, to reserve the real spiritual messages for the “Hebrew line”; I am convinced, at least as far as I am concerned, that this should be balanced by other channels, and the Indian is then the most challenging, because of the richness of its forms and because of its occult embodiment of Golden Mean symbolism. The cautionary remark is also there because I honestly think that we should not be eclectic. Eclecticism arises hen we just collate “information” and, at best, stay in the realm of wonder and fascination. You yourself feel you are in contact with “familiars” who give experiential weight to your statements without which you would not even dare to make them. The proof in the pudding is in the eating – and we should only eat pudding. A living tradition is the people who live in it, are permeated by it. It is this familiarity "in the flesh" so to speak which we should bring to the spiritual subjects that lead us to them. That means, “practically”, never-ending work. Learning the languages, parsing and reading the texts, meditate them etc. But of course you know that – and maybe we never leave the "stage of wonder” — but there comes warmth with the familiarity and the seventh chakra (the Holy Heart) opens and smiles.
A final note: I do not know whether you know (a little bit) Alexandre Grothendieck, the French-German mathematician who is considered the most influential mathematician of the XXth century. He died not too long ago, living as a hermit in Cathare country, not only having revolutionised mathematics but also having written what is thought of as more than 100,000 (!) pages of meditative, philosophical manuscript. I only have a very faint idea of his development of the concept of topos, which somehow seems to amount to a gigantic enlargement of the basic assumptions of topology – but he knocks at my door with his quite startling ideas that behind all science, and hence behind all formalisation of knowledge i.e. behind mathematics (even specifically number theory etc.) there is... language. Mathematics, he says, arise from “naming”. The human is because he finds names for beings: from ants to ghosts, from rainbows to “mathematical beings” (as he calls concepts) – what God asked Adam to do, or what is behind Vāc in Indian metaphysics. But: not as an imposing our names on them, but as a humble perceiving these names because the beings-to-be-named whisper their names into our ears when we listen because we are silent.

p.s.: forgive me for the following little criticism: do not repeat the fashionable academic consensus about Nostratic. Would you not agree to be critical about any mainstream academic consensus? Well, if you are, then be as well about Nostratic (or the beyond-Nostratic that I call Vostratic). Most academic linguists are experts of a small domain. They lack the overview. The following reference works should be studied by who wants to delve into the matter.

The work of the Dolgopolsky team. (https://www.repository.cam.ac.uk/items/af09c345-2382-497e-a958-25f9283cd8a2)

The work of Allan Bomhard. (https://brill.com/display/title/17810?srsltid=AfmBOopvASVb0SV5GcuCbHkiIxMp-DorrNSvtLqRDDwuNeWWfBEon2UW)

And the work of the first brave explorer, Hermann Möller (https://archive.org/details/VergleichendesIndogermanischSemitischesWorterbuch/page/n47/mode/2up).

Be well on your quest.


Well, Michel… what can I say… It’s not common for me to express what I’m about to tell you, but I’ve been left speechless by the vastness of your experiences, knowledge, and wisdom. You truly are an initiate. I’ve always felt a certain affinity with Rosicrucianism. And it turns out that the first person in my life to openly communicate with me as one (at my 37 years of age, not by chance) is you. It’s clear that I still have a long path to walk on this journey of inner and outer knowledge. I thank you from the heart for everything you’ve shared with me. I will meditate on it and delve deeper into the information you provided. I really liked your phrase: “but there comes warmth with the familiarity and the seventh chakra (the Holy Heart) opens and smiles.” I send you a heartfelt embrace, and you’re more than welcome to share and participate in whatever way you wish!



55405

[Michel Leclerc]

Hug, kiss.

Love you are 37 – and then write about 37.

[Michel Leclerc]

To add somebody, pretty well-known internationally – who was quite deeply convinced of the “omnipresence” of the “Tradition” (his term): René Guénon (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/René_Guénon), maybe you are quite well-read in him. The author of short essays, monographies: extraordinary clarity and capacity of synthesis. Familiar with Kabbala, India, China, “the West” – then in the 1930s, went to live in Cairo, became a Muslim, more or less founded a modern-day tariqah, married a young woman, fathered many children, was considered by the Cairenes as a sheikh.

[Dorjezigzag]

What caught my attention was that he took the number in his hospital room as a bad omen. Maybe it was because of the context he was in. I’m going to look into Jung and his relationship with 137, and if anything comes up, I’ll come back and share more thoughts on it.

Humans are fascinating because they are threshold beings, poised between the material and the spiritual.
Pauli and Jung liked the idea that 137 sits at the threshold between order and chaos, an archetype of the liminal, which is a deep occult theme: thresholds, veils, crossings.
Pauli didn’t fear the number itself or see it as bad or cursed. But in the context of finding it as his hospital room number, while gravely ill, made it feel like a doorway to another realm, a crossing over, true to its archetype of the in-between.

[Irminsül]

What caught my attention was that he took the number in his hospital room as a bad omen. Maybe it was because of the context he was in. I’m going to look into Jung and his relationship with 137, and if anything comes up, I’ll come back and share more thoughts on it.

Humans are fascinating because they are threshold beings, poised between the material and the spiritual.
Pauli and Jung liked the idea that 137 sits at the threshold between order and chaos, an archetype of the liminal, which is a deep occult theme: thresholds, veils, crossings.
Pauli didn’t fear the number itself or see it as bad or cursed. But in the context of finding it as his hospital room number, while gravely ill, made it feel like a doorway to another realm, a crossing over, true to its archetype of the in-between.



Sure, now I understand how he might have interpreted that sign in relation to the number. That's right: we are liminal beings. This reminded me of the topic of the Dweller on the Threshold. Here's a brief explanation for those unfamiliar with it:

What is the Dweller on the Threshold?

The Dweller on the Threshold is a symbolic or archetypal entity representing the sum of the unredeemed aspects of the human soul: selfish desires, unhealed traumas, fears, accumulated karma, and even psychic entities created by the individual throughout their lifetimes.
It is the final great obstacle that the spiritual disciple must face before gaining access to higher planes of consciousness or enlightenment. In modern terms, it is the shadow of the soul.
It appears when someone has advanced spiritually to the point where they are about to cross the threshold between the lower human and the higher divine. There, they come face to face with this Dweller, which acts as a final test: are you ready to leave behind your past, your ego, your fears?

Origin and Main Authors

Edward Bulwer-Lytton was the first to use the term "Dweller on the Threshold" in his esoteric novel Zanoni (1842). In it, the protagonist confronts a terrifying entity that symbolizes fear and inner spiritual obstacles.
Helena Petrovna Blavatsky, founder of the Theosophical Society, revisited and expanded upon the concept, giving it a more technical occult meaning. In her writings and in Theosophical teachings, the Dweller is an accumulated thought-form that must be dissolved through spiritual work.
Alice A. Bailey, a disciple of Theosophy, also mentions it in her writings, particularly in Initiation, Human and Solar, where she describes it as an energetic projection of the disciple’s unresolved karma.
Rudolf Steiner, in his system of Spiritual Science (Anthroposophy), also refers to the Guardian of the Threshold as an entity the soul encounters on the path to higher self-awareness.

Equivalents and Analogies

In Jungian terms, the Dweller on the Threshold could be equated with the “dark side of the unconscious,” that is, the Shadow.
In shamanic or initiatory traditions, it is the “guardian of the threshold,” which appears when the initiate is about to enter other realms.
In transpersonal psychology, it is seen as a critical phase of inner transformation.



55408

[Irminsül]

Irminsul - Thanks for your kind words and glad you got something from it. I'm quite busy now so not going to respond to what you shared. But i'll quick give you some more to keep you busy lol.

55403

You can find this on the website: in2infinity
Great website.

I have to re read their site for their explanation of it. But the pic seems to show that those 3 (musical) frequencies/ratios might correspond to the RGB colors and the superposition of those form the 7 rainbow colors. Although that could be totally wrong, i need time to figure it out.

The 7 points where the wave intersects the axis shows the spacing of the 7 rainbow colors on the spectrum. If i understood them correctly, the website said this is why not all 7 colors have the same range or bandwidth. Orange and yellow are closer together and supposedly have a smaller range of frequencies on the visible light spectrum.

I dont understand music theory but want to study it some day, so i can better understand the connection here between music harmonics , musical scale and this color spectrum/scale. I assume they must be the same thing mathematically, just light scale vs sound scale. As above (light) , so below (sound).

Can we think of the balance point, the black line as the point of perception? Like perception takes place when the wave crosses the center line. hmm

I dont understand how RGB is used in electronics to create all colors. I was trying to figure out if that is what they are trying to show in the diagram as well. 3 frequencies, which combine to create 7. That must be right, but I dont get how say orange would be made at that point. No blue + some green + much red = Orange? lol Not sure what the word "Tone" means with the arrow in the image as well.

I gotta run this through AI , and have it explain the RGB thing too.

Not sure why its Cyan and Blue. I thought it would be ROYGBIV. Indigo? The positions seem to be about right for the chakra positions, just dont know if there is a minor cyan chakra? The indigo third eye chakra would be between blue and violet.

Anyway , gotta run. Maybe you'll see things i didn't. I liked your response and will think over what u said and response another time. Keep up the great work to you and others on this thread.

PS . that website can keep you busy for a long time lol. Beware !! Its full of gems, although I cant understand everything as its not all explained clearly.

I had an AI analyze the chart you sent. From what I can see, you actually understood the concept well—even though it didn’t seem like it to you, haha. It’s true that if we (I mean you and I—someone on the forum probably does know about musical notes and light particle waves) knew the theories and laws behind musical notes and also had knowledge of physics (like how subatomic particles behave, or something along those lines), we could probably draw more conclusions than what we intuitively pick up just by looking at the chart you shared.

Still, it’s already something to be able to recognize that aspects of sound and light can be related. Once again, we see that throughout all of nature (and all of Creation, obviously), there are patterns or sequences everywhere that show there’s an Intelligence behind everything we call life.

Here’s the AI’s explanation:

🔴 Left Side – Light and Frequency (Electromagnetic Waves)
▪ "3 Speed of light / 2 Wavelength / 1 Frequency"
Frequency: the number of cycles (complete waves) per second.

Wavelength: the distance between two consecutive peaks (or troughs).

Speed of light: a universal constant that relates frequency and wavelength:
speed = frequency × wavelength

The image shows that:

If we double the wavelength, to maintain the same speed, the frequency is halved.

▪ "Combined Light Wave"
Here, waves of different colors (wavelengths) are combined, corresponding to different frequencies of visible light:

Red, Orange, Yellow, Green, Cyan, Blue, Violet — each color represents a different frequency of visible light.

The overlapping of waves creates a composite wave. This is the basis of how we perceive color mixtures, like white light.

"Tone" here refers to a base frequency or “note” of light, as an analogy with music.

🎵 Right Side – Analogy with Musical Intervals
The right side of the diagram applies harmonic musical relationships to waves.

▪ Octave
A wave that has twice the frequency of another (the same pattern but faster).

In music, this is an octave: it sounds like the same note, but higher.

In light, one can think of it as a color with twice the frequency, although perception differs from sound.

▪ Musical 5th
Two waves where one has a frequency 1.5 times the other (a 3:2 ratio).

In music, this creates a stable and pleasant harmony.

In light, combining frequencies in this ratio can generate complementary colors.

▪ Musical 4th
A 4:3 ratio between frequencies.

Also creates a harmonic sensation, though distinct from the fifth.

In light, this is more metaphorical, but can be used to think about color harmony.

🧠 Conclusion
This diagram suggests that light and sound, while physically different, share harmonic principles when it comes to frequencies and waves. Thus:

Colors = Notes (in a vibrational sense)
Color combinations = Chords
Double frequencies = Octaves


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[Michel Leclerc]

A few little comments on what is stated about Sumerian above.

One: there are serious reasons for the hypothesis that Sumerian is a Nostratic language. Bomhard “statutorily” considers it as such, and cites many quite striking examples. His approach is typically “open-minded”, listing cognates from languages still awaiting acceptance by a majority of Nostraticists. In the same vein he allows Eskimo-Aleutian in for instance. Dolgopolsky, however, has a “conservative” point of view: he allows only Indo-European, Uralic, Altaic, Afroasiatic, Dravidian and Kartvelian languages into his concept of Nostratic, i.e. the six language families that are generally considered by Nostraticists as belonging to the “mega family”.

Two: in order to put this in perspective, I would like to raise a point of importance for non-(professional)-linguists. We should understand what it means when we say that English is a Germanic language, or that Greek is an Indo-European language.

English is considered Germanic because the Beowulf (from whose language modern English can be shown to “descend”, through “Middle English” (Chaucer’s English) and “New English” (Shakespeare’s English), is written in Old English, a form of Germanic, as are Old German, Old Norse, Old Frisian and Old Dutch. Additionally, this “Germanic-ness” is more specifically borne out by its grammar, which has features that are typical of Germanic languages. New, (“Shakespeare’s”), English also contains words from other Germanic languages like Old Norse (thanks to the Vikings), – but also non-Germanic “loan”-words, like Celtic (Irish, Welsh, Scotch) words, as well as masses of Romance, to be precise: French words. As English is largely Germanic (Indo-European) and Romance (Indo-European) in its vocabulary, and Germanic (Indo-European) in its grammar, it is called an Indo-European language.

Spanish is a Romance language, which means that is is basically an evolved form of Latin, of which roughly said 90 p.c. of its vocabulary consists, as well as its grammar. However, a sizable part of its vocabulary is evolved Arabic, which not only is not a Romance language, but neither an Indo-European one: Arabic is a Semitic language belonging to the Afro-Asiatic (or as Bomhard would say: Afrasian) language family – a fellow member of the Nostratic group. This means that Spanish has a 90% Indo-European and a 10% non-Indo-European vocabulary . But it does not end there: an admittedly smaller portion of Spanish vocabulary is Basque, and Basque is not “even” a Nostratic language (in other words, as I would say, it is a Vostratic language). As Spanish is largely Romance (Indo-European) in vocabulary and grammar – and although it also contains Afro-Asiatic (Arabic) and “Vostratic” (Basque) – it is called an Indo-European language.

Greek, however, is an interesting counter-example. Who would doubt the European-ness” of Greek? Well, the grammar of Greek is undoubtedly Indo-European, it has very strong similarities with the grammar of Sanskrit, Avestan, old Armenian, Latin, Old Germanic, Church Slavonic (all Indo-European languages)… but its vocabulary is only 50 p.c. Indo-European. (May that sink in.) Where does the other 50 p.c. come from? From Semitic, for instance (Greek not only absorbing the Semitic alphabet but also quite a number of words: wine (Greek oinos), for instance – or Egyptian (both being Afro-Asiatic languages) – or from various non-Nostratic (! cf. the Basque in Spanish) extinct languages maybe.., or even extinct Indo-European languages, maybe.. (maybe: we are already fully advancing “hypothetic hypotheses ”) – Yet we still call Greek Indo-European because of its very strongly “common Indo-European” grammar.

Going back to Sumerian, it appears that quite a number of its words are probable cognates of words in languages belonging to other Nostratic language families (Indo-European, Afro-Asiatic or Afrasian, etc..) (justifying, at least in part, Bomhard’s choice to list it among the Nostratic languages). That its grammar is very unlike Indo-European (i.e. like Greek, Latin, Germanic, Avestan, Sanskrit) may induce us at first to conclude that Sumerian is unrelated to “our” languages —— but that is because we spontaneously reason from the point of view of the inflectional grammatical type of “our”, widespread, languages who happen to be Indo-European and Afro-Asiatic. There is a different grammatical type present among the Nostratic languages, however, which is called the agglutinative type: it is characteristic of the Uralic family (Finnish, Hungarian), the Altaic family (Turkish, Mongolian, Korean, Japanese), the Dravidian family (Telugu, Tamil, Malayalam, Kannada…)
So, Alan Bomhard would say: what we know about Sumerian grammar does not exclude Sumerian’s “Nostraticness” (as it displays one of its grammatical types) – and a sizable part of its vocabulary it shares with Nostratic languages.. Considering that, is it not time to shift our scientific hypotheses from the “Is Sumerian related to Nostratic languages?” question to the “How is Sumerian related to other Nostratic languages?” question?

[Irminsül]

A few little comments on what is stated about Sumerian above.

One: there are serious reasons for the hypothesis that Sumerian is a Nostratic language. Bomhard “statutorily” considers it as such, and cites many quite striking examples. His approach is typically “open-minded”, listing cognates from languages still awaiting acceptance by a majority of Nostraticists. In the same vein he allows Eskimo-Aleutian in for instance. Dolgopolsky, however, has a “conservative” point of view: he allows only Indo-European, Uralic, Altaic, Afroasiatic, Dravidian and Kartvelian languages into his concept of Nostratic, i.e. the six language families that are generally considered by Nostraticists as belonging to the “mega family”.

Two: in order to put this in perspective, I would like to raise a point of importance for non-(professional)-linguists. We should understand what it means when we say that English is a Germanic language, or that Greek is an Indo-European language.

English is considered Germanic because the Beowulf (from whose language modern English can be shown to “descend”, through “Middle English” (Chaucer’s English) and “New English” (Shakespeare’s English), is written in Old English, a form of Germanic, as are Old German, Old Norse, Old Frisian and Old Dutch. Additionally, this “Germanic-ness” is more specifically borne out by its grammar, which has features that are typical of Germanic languages. New, (“Shakespeare’s”), English also contains words from other Germanic languages like Old Norse (thanks to the Vikings), – but also non-Germanic “loan”-words, like Celtic (Irish, Welsh, Scotch) words, as well as masses of Romance, to be precise: French words. As English is largely Germanic (Indo-European) and Romance (Indo-European) in its vocabulary, and Germanic (Indo-European) in its grammar, it is called an Indo-European language.

Spanish is a Romance language, which means that is is basically an evolved form of Latin, of which roughly said 90 p.c. of its vocabulary consists, as well as its grammar. However, a sizable part of its vocabulary is evolved Arabic, which not only is not a Romance language, but neither an Indo-European one: Arabic is a Semitic language belonging to the Afro-Asiatic (or as Bomhard would say: Afrasian) language family – a fellow member of the Nostratic group. This means that Spanish has a 90% Indo-European and a 10% non-Indo-European vocabulary . But it does not end there: an admittedly smaller portion of Spanish vocabulary is Basque, and Basque is not “even” a Nostratic language (in other words, as I would say, it is a Vostratic language). As Spanish is largely Romance (Indo-European) in vocabulary and grammar – and although it also contains Afro-Asiatic (Arabic) and “Vostratic” (Basque) – it is called an Indo-European language.

Greek, however, is an interesting counter-example. Who would doubt the European-ness” of Greek? Well, the grammar of Greek is undoubtedly Indo-European, it has very strong similarities with the grammar of Sanskrit, Avestan, old Armenian, Latin, Old Germanic, Church Slavonic (all Indo-European languages)… but its vocabulary is only 50 p.c. Indo-European. (May that sink in.) Where does the other 50 p.c. come from? From Semitic, for instance (Greek not only absorbing the Semitic alphabet but also quite a number of words: wine (Greek oinos), for instance – or Egyptian (both being Afro-Asiatic languages) – or from various non-Nostratic (! cf. the Basque in Spanish) extinct languages maybe.., or even extinct Indo-European languages, maybe.. (maybe: we are already fully advancing “hypothetic hypotheses ”) – Yet we still call Greek Indo-European because of its very strongly “common Indo-European” grammar.

Going back to Sumerian, it appears that quite a number of its words are probable cognates of words in languages belonging to other Nostratic language families (Indo-European, Afro-Asiatic or Afrasian, etc..) (justifying, at least in part, Bomhard’s choice to list it among the Nostratic languages). That its grammar is very unlike Indo-European (i.e. like Greek, Latin, Germanic, Avestan, Sanskrit) may induce us at first to conclude that Sumerian is unrelated to “our” languages —— but that is because we spontaneously reason from the point of view of the inflectional grammatical type of “our”, widespread, languages who happen to be Indo-European and Afro-Asiatic. There is a different grammatical type present among the Nostratic languages, however, which is called the agglutinative type: it is characteristic of the Uralic family (Finnish, Hungarian), the Altaic family (Turkish, Mongolian, Korean, Japanese), the Dravidian family (Tamul, …)
So, Alan Bomhard would say: what we know about Sumerian grammar does not exclude Sumerian’s “Nostraticness” (as it displays one of its grammatical types) – and a sizable part of its vocabulary it shares with Nostratic languages.. Considering that, is it not time to shift our scientific hypotheses from the “Is Sumerian related to Nostratic languages?” question to the “How is Sumerian related to other Nostratic languages?” question?


All of this you're sharing is extremely interesting and captivating. Even though we're drifting a bit off-topic from the thread, haha. But I think that as long as no moderator comes to scold us, we can keep going with these topics.
I study linguistics in a very amateur way, and I had no idea about anything you're presenting. When I read that Nostratic proposes a common origin from which all other languages derived, I can’t help but think of the biblical story of the Tower of Babel. It feels like there’s some truth to that.
Just as there is undoubtedly some truth in the story of Noah’s Ark, since that myth appears in the traditions of several peoples who had no connection with each other (for example: the Maya and the Hindus).

By the way, I’m sharing some images of the site in question. And the response of an IA about these numbers:

There are some interesting connections between the Sumerians, their mathematical systems, and the numbers 37 and 137, although they are not immediately obvious and are often found more in the realm of esotericism, symbolic numerology, and modern reinterpretations than in explicit Sumerian texts.

1. The Sumerian Sexagesimal System and the Number 37
The Sumerians used a sexagesimal system (base 60), which was one of their major contributions to humanity. In this context:

The number 37 is not particularly significant in the sexagesimal system, but...

60 is divisible by 3, 4, 5, 6, 10, 12, 15, 20, 30 — but not by 37. However, 60 × 37 = 2220, and this number has been considered symbolically interesting by some numerologists (even though this doesn’t come directly from Sumerian sources).

The Sumerian mathematical structure was highly sophisticated, allowing for complex fractions and astronomical calculations, which has led some modern researchers to look for patterns in their tables that might match mathematical or cosmic constants.

2. The Number 137 and Its Modern Symbolism
The number 137 is famous today in physics and esotericism for representing the fine-structure constant, a fundamental constant that governs electromagnetic interaction. Although the Sumerians had no such concept, some hypotheses claim:

Some ancient cultures (such as Egyptian and Mesopotamian) may have had numerical and cosmological intuitions that are reflected today in numbers like 137.

Zecharia Sitchin and other speculative authors have suggested that the Anunnaki (extraterrestrial beings in his hypothesis) possessed advanced knowledge of astronomy and physics, and that certain key numbers might have been symbolically encoded.

In this framework, some associate 137 with forbidden or secret knowledge, and with the transmission of celestial wisdom to humans in antiquity.

3. Numerology, Symbolism, and Retroactive Kabbalistic Associations
In Hebrew, the number 137 is the gematria of קַבָּלָה (Kabbalah), which gives it a mystical aura.

Some see correspondences between Sumerian mythological structures (such as the 7 gates of the underworld or the 7 sages/apkallu) and numerological cycles centered on 137 — although this is more modern esoteric speculation than strict archaeology.

4. The Number 37 and Harmonic Patterns
The number 37 is a prime number that appears in interesting harmonic patterns:

3 × 37 = 111

6 × 37 = 222

9 × 37 = 333

etc.

These patterns are symbolically striking and have been used in mystical contexts. Although there’s no evidence that the Sumerians specifically used the number 37 as such, their fascination with repetitive numerical patterns was indeed present in their culture — for example, in ritual texts and astronomical tablets.



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[Michel Leclerc]

Hello Irminsül, thank you for your reading harvest.

Apart from reacting to your statement

When I read that Nostratic proposes a common origin from which all other languages derived, I can’t help but think of the biblical story of the Tower of Babel.

with two remarks:

(1) that no, Nostratic does not propose a common origin from which all other languages derived, but only for a limited set of language families: among which the Indo-European, the Afro-Asiatic aka Afrasian, the Uralic, the Dravidian, the Altaic and the Kartvelian; however, for instance the Sinitic languages (Chinese, Burmese, Tibetan), the Amerindian languages (of your American Indian neighbours), the Niger-Congo languages (among which the Bantu languages) and a vast number of other language families are not Nostratic. That is: when we remain within the realm of science (linguistics) – as we should do, at first at least. But we may speculate further, and not without pointing out strange “global” cognates, and then the idea of a common origin for (almost) all may pop up;

(2) that yes, the wording itself of the Bible passage suggests that association; and more: the consecutive Flood very much seems to be identical with the world-wide tsunamis created by the Groenland mereorite(s) about which Graham Hancock and others write. Glottochronology (a statistical tool of historical linguistics, allowing to date the fragmentation of languages in derived languages) suggests that the split-up of Nostratic into the constituent language families was more or less completed by the time of the Groenland catastrophe, which could have been preceded by a swarm of smaller (?) catastrophes and correlative language family fragmentations stretched out over a few millennia;
(2 bis) the French post-Freud and post-Lacan psychoanalyst Marie Balmary (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marie_Balmary) who is also a Bible scholar in a way, points out that the one language the Babel builders spoke was the result of their decision, or in other words, the Babel builder-unilingualists’ epoch was preceded by a period of language diversity (which, just like human reproduction and hence diversity, was the Creator’s plan) and His intervention in Noah’s time was meant to reinstate this diversity; writing this in the 80s Balmary prophesied our period, in which the world's civilisations are right now fighting their way out of a Neo-Babel Empire, imposing one type of society – and one language, English;

I agree with your nudge to go back to topic – and, for instance, to the remarkable multiples of 37.

[Irminsül]

I’m adding this to the thread. Those who love numbers, physics, and sacred geometry will surely enjoy it.



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