The simple facts and fictions about Israel and Zionism: How to debunk blatantly false Zionist propaganda

[Kryztian]

In nations that have long been seen as allies to the state of Israel and the cause of Zionism (such as the USA, Great Britain, Australia and Germany), there is rapidly decreasing support among the people while sympathy for Palestine is dramatically increasing. The rest of the world, especially the neighbors of Israel, are far more advanced in their understanding of what is really going on than in these heavily propagandized nations with big military budgets.

Here on Project Avalon, Israel does not have very much support, although there are a few advocates left. I think all of us know at least a few people who still favor Israel and feel what they are doing in Gaza is righteous or necessary or justified, and if we are armed with the right information, we might be able to persuade them otherwise.

As I see if, if you think Israel is justified in it's war on Gaza, it's treatment of Palestinians, it's constant bombings and military actions in Syria, Lebanon and Iran, then you are misinformed about this history and about the current situation of Israel, about Zionism, about Palestine.

So here, to help you distinguish propagandistic fictions from historical facts, are some things you just might need to know ...



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Fiction: There is no such thing as Palestine

Fact: The word "Palestine" is derived from the Egyptian word "Peleset". The word can be traced back to 1150 BCE to inscription in ancient Egyptian temples and stelae. This would be associated with the Philistines, a group that settled in the area we now know as "The Gaza Strip" in the late Bronze Age. The Assyrian words would be "Palastu", "Pilišti", or "Pilistu."


https://i.imgur.com/Wv6zfSb.jpeg

Another word used to describe this area is "Canaan" and it's people would be "Canaanites". The map above is from a British dictionary and is an attempt to delineate the border of Canaan, which today would be comparable to what has been more recently "Palestine", "Israel", "Lebanon" and some parts of "Syria". Note in the map above at the bottom right "Philistim" which does correspond to where the Philistines lived before their last King was overthrown by the Babylonians in or around 603 BC.

The Bible mentions Canaan 88 times. The first instance is in Genesis 10, where "Canaan" is a grandson of Noah, the guy with the ark. But after that starting in Genesis 11, "Canaan" is a place, not a person:


Terah took his son Abram, his grandson Lot son of Haran, and his daughter-in-law Sarai, the wife of his son Abram, and together they set out from Ur of the Chaldeans to go to Canaan. ---Genesis 11:31

and succeeding references in the Bible are also to the land and the people that inhabit it. Also note that the land of Canaan exists before Abram immigrated there. Abram/Abraham is often considered the progenitor of the Jews as an ethnic race. Abram is an immigrant from Ur of the Chaldeans, which most scholars agree is now in modern day southern Iraq, near Basra. He is originally a Chaldean, which today would be an Iraqi, and an immigrant to the land of Canaan.

After many mentions in the Book of Genesis, the land Canaan is referred to several times in other Old Testament books: Chronicles, Deuteronomy, Exodus, Ezekiel, Joshua, Judges, Leviticus, Numbers, Psalms and Zephaniah. It is mentioned once in the New Testament Gospel of Matthew (15:12) written in the first century A.D. Canaan is also mentioned in many Egyptian texts including in a letter going back to the Pharoah Akhenaten in 1350 BC. It is clear that "Canaan" was the term used for at least 14 centuries.


https://i.imgur.com/hgQsiD1.png

The Romans made the area of Canaan a client state around 63 BC and eventually put it under control of Herod, and then later divided it amongst his sons. They referred to it generally as Filasṭīn, even though much of that land included much land that was North and West of where the Philistine kings were rulers. Thus, this much larger tract of land, "Canaan", became "Filastin" in Latin and then "Palestine" in other languages. We often call the Germans "Deutsch" and the Spanish "Castilians", but they are basically the two different names for the same area or the same people who inhabit that area. It is the same for Canaan and Palestine, just as "Canaanites" is simply another name for "Palestinians".

In an interview in 1969, Prime Minster Golda Meir famously stated:

"There was no such thing as Palestinians."

There is overwhelming evidence of a historical Palestine and of a Palestinian people, but the case becomes even more clear and the roots of these people can be traced back even further if you consider that the Palestinians are the same thing as the Canaanites. The state of Israel has been renaming villages, towns, streams, river, springs, hills, mountains and lakes in its 77 year existence, often giving them Biblical and Hebrew names. But they never use the word "Canaan" to name anything even though this is one of the most popular place names used in the Bible. Are they trying to bring back history by renaming things, or are they trying to erase it, in the same way Golda Meir is?

Many of the nations and peoples we know today are the results of centuries of people living a similar lifestyle, speaking a similar language or group of languages. They have all been evolving, their official borders changing somewhat if they are not defined by geographical features like coastlines, their language changing slightly, their religions sometimes changing dramatically, or not, their lands sometimes undergoing invasion and new forms of government being introduced, and yet, their concept of being a people or a nation somehow survives those changes. Palestine/Canaan is no different, except it goes back well over three millennia, much longer than any European or American nation. The people who lived there before Zionism started, the people who still live there today as "Palestinians", are the same as the Canaanites who were there in the Bronze Age, years ago before Abram arrived from the land of Ur. They have essentially the same DNA, taking into account that there has some immigration and cross pollination of people and cultures which you will find in any other nation/culture. They are essentially the same people farming the farms and building the cities.

They have survived quite a long time, endured many invasions, but their greatest challenge has come in the last century, with Zionism, which has been showing up at doorsteps with guns, forcing people to leave the country and bar them from returning, turning off their electricity, restricting their access to water, forcing them to give up their homes for people who come from places as far away as Brooklyn, bombing their dwellings, their churches, their schools, their mosques, their hospitals and finally obliterating their cities and locking them in a confined area without shelter for their forced starvation.


956845679908475

[Kryztian]

Fiction: The land known as Palestine and/or Israel, is historically a land of Jewish rule, of the Jewish race and of the Jewish religion.

Fact: Over the centuries, Canaan/Palestine has been invaded and occupied by many, many foreign empires and powers: (note to mods, list was complied using assistance of A.I.)

Egyptian Empire (c. 15th–13th centuries BC)
Canaanite City-States (indigenous Bronze Age peoples).
Kingdoms of Israel (c. 1000–720 BC)
Assyrian Empire (722 BC)
Babylonian Empire (586 BC)
Persian (Achaemenid) Empire (539–332 BC)
Macedonian Empire (Alexander the Great) (332 BC)
Ptolemaic Kingdom (Egyptian Greek dynasty) (301–200 BC)
Seleucid Empire (Syrian Greek dynasty) (200–164 BC)
Hasmonean Kingdom (164–63 BCE)
Roman Republic/Empire (63 BC–313 AD) .
Byzantine Empire (313–636 AD)
Rashidun Caliphate (636–661 AD)
Umayyad Caliphate (661–750 AD)
Abbasid Caliphate (750–969 AD)
Fatimid Caliphate (969–1099 AD)
Crusader Kingdom of Jerusalem (1099–1187 AD, with later fragments)
Ayyubid Dynasty (1187–1250 AD)
Mamluk Sultanate (1250–1517 AD)
Ottoman Empire (1517–1917 AD)
British Empire (1917–1948 AD)

Some of the above empires were associated with religions, some not, but if I am doing the math correctly, this area was under Jewish rule for a total of roughly 380 years (not including the time of Zionist Israel starting in 1947), 375 years by Christians (taking into account the Byzantine Empire became officially Christian in 380 AD) and 1190 years by Islamic rulers.

However, the people of Canaan were much more diverse than their religious leaders: they weren't just Jewish, Christian and Islamic, but also the religions of the original Canaanites (with gods such as El, Baal, Asherah, Astarte, Molech), Philistine religion, Egyptian, Mesopotamian, Greek and Roman religions, Mystery cults (Mithraism, Isis Cult, Orphic and Dionysian Mysteries), Zoroastrianism, Manichaeism, Gnosticism, Arabic Paganism. Today one still finds many adherents of the Druze Faith, Samaritanism and the Baháʼí Faith.

There is also a great diversity of ethnic groups here besides just "Canaanites"and "Jews". We have:
Amorites, Philistines, Ammonites, Moabites, Edomites, Midianites, Idumeans, Nabateans, Samaritans, Arabs. Coming from further away we have Bedouins, Circassians, Armenians, Druze, Chechens, Bozniaks.
The invading empires left colonists, soldiers, administrators behind who were Assyrians, Babylonians (Chaldeans), Persians (Achaemenids), Greeks (Macedonians & Hellenistic settlers), Romans, Byzantines, Crusaders (Franks, Normans, other Europeans), Kurds, Seljuk Turks, Mamluk Turks who all left colonists, soldiers, administrators behind. All of these people have blended in together to form one peaceful culture, that was thriving peacefully before Zionism came to the shores of Palestine.

And then there are the Jews, the Palestinian Jews. There have always been Jews in Palestinian, but unlike the Zionists Jews, they spoke Arabic and they were happy to live in a society with a multitude of religions, but their was one language that unified them: Arabic. Most Palestinian Jews felt much more of a kinship with their Moslem and Christian neighbors who spoke Arabic, than the Zionist Jews who immigrated, who didn't want to speak their language or learn their ways, but who wanted to run everything and start a whole way of life that had no regard for the people who had been living there for the last few millennia.

As you can see, Palestine has a rich and complex culture and while Jews and Judaism are an important component, it is only one ingredient in soup that has lots and lots of ingredients.

[Gemma13]

There's a gaping hole in the idea that this war is purely territorial and we should abandon all corresponding logic to focus on an imagined group of Utopian farmers thousands of years ago that may, or may not, have called themselves Palestinians.

Can you speak to the religious part? To what's happening today. Taking into account that Israel has been a legitimate country for well over half a century now and the very idea, or ultimate goal of Islam's Hamas et al to dismantle it by killing everyone in it, is retarded.

When Muhammad wrote up his copycat to Jesus script positioning himself as God's last prophet - cleverly absorbing Jesus and Abrahamic script I might add - his Caliphates marched across lands forcing conversion by the sword. Fast forward to today and we have Gazans bending the knee to avoid losing their heads, or willingly subscribing to Muhammad's mandate to conquer the world in his name with blood lust.

How can this modern day fact be sidelined in favour of arguments over who lived where and by what name thousands of years ago?

Another question. Israel operates in accordance with Western political values. Hamas and Co do not. They live and die by their death cult.

Who would the Gazan farmers be better off with today, and over time? Hamas, who refuse to use a fraction of their billion dollar wealth to keep power running 24/7? Or Israel, a country that has willingly offered sovereignty to the Palestine region if those damn farmers could just muscle up and overthrow the blood thirsty psycopaths governing them?

I respect your passionate anti-Zionist argument but you're activism is 77 years too late.

[Kryztian]

Hi Gemma - glad you found this thread.


There's a gaping hole in the idea that this war is purely territorial
Please note, I am only trying to debunk the claim listed at the top of post. My intention in the above was not to say if this war is territorial. Here I was trying to define what the territory of "Palestine" and "Canaan" referred to historically and population was. And that Golda Meir is a genocidal liar for trying to think there is no such thing as Palestine or Palestinians. The other point I was trying to make here is that complete illogic in placing the control of this parcel of land into the hands of one religious group and allowing them to contruct a system of genocide and apartheid against the rest of the inhabitants there.

Nevertheless, I think this war is very, very, very territorial. Israel has never been very clear about the limits of their "territory", and as you can see, the territory of where Palestinians can built a civilization and it is quickly getting smaller and smaller and smaller.

https://i.imgur.com/4jIEUvU.jpeg

And then there is the topic of Greater Israel, that some Israeli believe that Israel is destined to expand from the Nile to the Euphrates. It seems Netanyahu has publicly signaled his support for such an idea. (I haven't researched this idea, but you will find this on other threads. I am not ready to say more about this one.)


https://i.imgur.com/BLiFmkY.jpeg


imagined group of Utopian farmers thousands of years ago that may, or may not, have called themselves Palestinians.

No, I never said this was a Utopia - you can see by all the invasions and conquests, Palestine has had a pretty tumultuos history. But there has never been anything like the bloody Thirty Year's Wa (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thirty_Years%27_War)r where religious in Palestine battled it out, at least not until Zionist Jews (mostly Ashkenazi) announced that they were taking over control of everything and didn't give a hoot about what the people who had been living there for thousands of years said. There are arguments about the demographics, but as far as I know, Palestinians around 1900 were 70% Moslem, 25% Christian, 5% Jewish around the year 1900, and there were also some Druze and Bahais in there too. They didn't have the luxury of religious intolerance because they were fighting off their invaders: the Ottomans and then the British.

If you really want to understand some of the religious dynamics, at least the Jewish ones, including those of secular, Orthodox and others, I recommend listening to Alon Mizrahi, a Palestinian Jew. I posted two of his videos here (https://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?130162-The-end-of-the-state-of-Israel--1947-202--). His native language is Arabic, but because he is Jewish, he has been accepted into Israeli society and can speak quite a bit about the different layers of it, about the thinking of different segments of society and about the chaos that it is leading to.


Can you speak to the religious part?
I have a list of topics I would like to discuss in the thread, in the same format: the propaganda idea to us in the West, and then a debunking of it. One idea that this is a war between Judaism and Islam, or between a modern secular Judiasm and a fundamentalist Islamic state. That is utter rubbish but will take some work to explain.

Another religious topic I would like to discuss is how Israelis have treated Christians, and have been genociding them for 77 years. How Israeli terrorist groups showed up in Christian towns like Iqrit (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iqrit) and forced at gun point all the inhabitants to flee to Lebanon. In 1951 the Israeli government ruled that these people could return, but before they did, the IDF leveled every building in Irqit except the church.

There is only one completely Christian town left in all Israel/Palestine and that is Taybeh. It has Roman Catholics, Greek Orthodox and Melkite Christians churches. Israeli settlers are a very special class of Zionists. They really do believe they are god's chosen people and Israel is theirs and like the ancient Israeli killed the various peoples to get their lands, they just have to do the same to the non Jews in the West Bank. They go out at night and cut down olive trees so Christian farmers can't make a living. The set fire to fields and buildings to destroy farms. The show up in Taybeh at churches and fire guns in them. As of yet, they haven't killed anyone in these churches. Just outside of Taybeh, settlers have erected a billboard that says in Arabic "There is no future for you in Palestine".


https://i.imgur.com/1eLO8C8.jpeg

The people of Taybeh call the police, which there, is controlled by Israeli. The Israeli police are about as passionate about investigating and prosecuting crimes against Palestinians as the German Police were interested in protect Jews after Kristalnacht in 1938. Meanwhile, in Gaza, it is more like Auschwitz or Buchenwald in 1943.

There are Christians elsewhere in the West Bank, sharing their towns with Moslems. They are Eastern Orthodox, Catholic, Syriaic, Armenian and Maronite Christians . All of them have very long, deep roots in in this part of the world but they are just as much victims of genocide as the Muslims.


that Israel has been a legitimate country for well over half a century now

Not sure I would call Israel "legit" and it is definitely not going to be a country for much longer. If you look on the Israel vs Palestine thread there are many intelligent forecasts that Israel is about to end. Scott Ritter says it frequently. Andrew Napolitano and Prof. John Mearsheimer has said it and there are many more. The country has much worse debt than Argentina or Greece had when they were forced into austerity plans, about 15% of the population has left the country since October 2023 and isn't coming back, and many of those left have dual citizenships and are just biding their time. Tech companies can't find people to work there and are looking to relocate. Meanwhile, the Israeli press is reporting how wonderful the economy is doing :facepalm:. People in the IDF are utterly exhausted and many are avoid serving, either because they are afraid or because they are morally repulsed about what they are supposed to do. And those are just some of the factors in Israel's pending doom. For more, check out the post from Alon Mizrahi. (https://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?130162-The-end-of-the-state-of-Israel--1947-202--&p=1680094&viewfull=1#post1680094) Bill Ryan predicts the collapse sometime in 2027, but I think it could be sooner. I just hope the violence is minimal.


or ultimate goal of Islam's Hamas et al to dismantle it by killing everyone in it,

Since this thread is about propaganda, I think you might have zeroed in on the piece de resistance : Hamas. Just saying "Hamas" repeatedly evokes images of women in burkas, genital mutilation squads, beheadings for apostates, gays, and blasphemers. That is a big topic and I don't know how to attack that one yet, but I will say:



(1) The PLO (Palestinian Liberation Organization) was once the paramilitary organization of choice for Gazans, It was a secular organization and included lots of Christians and didn't have any religious goal except equality for all. I am not an expert on this story yet, but the idea is that Netanyahu, through organizations like the Mossad, managed to allow Hamas but not the PLO in Gaza to get funds through, to split the opposition in to two groups, and because the image of Hamas makes a good bogeyman.

(2) People are joining Hamas in Gaza not for religious reasons, but because they are tired of seeing their children being murdered. Perhaps journalist could confirm that, but since the IDF is shooting journalists in Gaza, I have to use reason and logic.

(3) When Israel falls, Hamas is not going to be taking over the new state. It's going to be a secular state based on the idea of equality, just as Palestine was before Zionists arrived.

[thirtythree]

There's a gaping hole in the idea that this war is purely territorial and we should abandon all corresponding logic to focus on an imagined group of Utopian farmers thousands of years ago that may, or may not, have called themselves Palestinians.

Can you speak to the religious part? To what's happening today. Taking into account that Israel has been a legitimate country for well over half a century now and the very idea, or ultimate goal of Islam's Hamas et al to dismantle it by killing everyone in it, is retarded.

When Muhammad wrote up his copycat to Jesus script positioning himself as God's last prophet - cleverly absorbing Jesus and Abrahamic script I might add - his Caliphates marched across lands forcing conversion by the sword. Fast forward to today and we have Gazans bending the knee to avoid losing their heads, or willingly subscribing to Muhammad's mandate to conquer the world in his name with blood lust.

How can this modern day fact be sidelined in favour of arguments over who lived where and by what name thousands of years ago?

Another question. Israel operates in accordance with Western political values. Hamas and Co do not. They live and die by their death cult.

Who would the Gazan farmers be better off with today, and over time? Hamas, who refuse to use a fraction of their billion dollar wealth to keep power running 24/7? Or Israel, a country that has willingly offered sovereignty to the Palestine region if those damn farmers could just muscle up and overthrow the blood thirsty psycopaths governing them?

I respect your passionate anti-Zionist argument but you're activism is 77 years too late.

Let's for argument's sake say that it all started on Oct 7, Have you actually been reading the news these last 2 years or do you think disproportionate mass murdering by the zionist state is all Hamas propoganda? Is Israel operating according to western political values? Sure if those values are to oppress, invade, genocide, cry foul and gaslight the entire world.


Your comment reeks of ignorance and Islamophobia with no regard for historical events that shaped the region into what it's become.

[Kryztian]

Fiction: The Jewish people of Israel just want peace
Fact: Probably most of the people do want peace, but the majority people who have had the highest positions of power in Israel in the last 77 years, do not. These are people whose many actions demonstrate that they want war for the sake of ethnic cleansing. One could write many, many posts making this point, but I will discuss just one glaring example here.


https://i.imgur.com/jbngjAw.jpeg
Folke Bernadotte (1895 – 1948)

Folke Bernadotte (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Folke_Bernadotte) was a Swedish diplomat and also a Count. In 1943 and 1944 he negotiated prisoner exchanges with Germany, and managed to get 11,000 prisoners released. 450 of them were Danish Jews from the Theresienstadt concentration camp. If he had not done so, those 450 would have undoutably been transferred to Auschwitz, and most of them would have been gassed and burned. Bernadotte also attempted to negotiate a peace deal between Himmler (without Hitler know about it) and Roosevelt and Churchill. He advised Himmler that the Allies would probably not accept the offer and he was eventually proved correct.

When the newly formed United Nations passed a resolution for the creation of an Israeli state, there was much fighting between Israelis and Palestine. Bernadotte was appointed the "United Nations Mediator in Palestine" and in June of 1948 successfully negotiated a ceasefire between Israeli and Palestinians, however, it only lasted until July. On 17 September 1948 he arrive in Jerusalem to negotiate a more lasting peace deal between the parties, accompanied by the French Colonel André Serot. Their car was stopped by four members of Lehi, a Zionist terrorist organization, dressed in IDF uniforms. The Lehi members inspected who was in the car, and with their guns shot both Bernadotte and Serot dead.

This terrorist action was approved by the three leaders of the Lehi terrorist group (or, in Wikipedia's sanitized language "paramilitary organization") one of whom was Yitzhak Shamir. Shamir was also involved in the Deir Yassin massacre. Numerous Lehi operatives showed up in the Arab village of Deir Yassin with guns and other weapons. By many reports, many of the town occupants were willing to peacefully leave the town and their ancestral home with their lives and move to another country, but Lehi decided to open fire on them. At least 107 people died that day.

In 1986, Shamir became the Prime Minster of Israel, and remained in that position in until 1992. :facepalm:

Is there any democratic nation on Earth that would let anyone who had done such despicably dark and evil deeds as Shamir any where near an office of political power, let alone, be the top leader of the country? There have been many more like Shamir is Israel's leadership positions in the last 77 years, but I don't know if their murderous and genocidal deeds are as well documented as Shamir's are. One thinks of Mao, Stalin, Pol Pot who led their armies to murder innocent victims, but not of them claimed that the had "The most moral army in the world (https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2023/10/16/the-myth-of-israels-most-moral)" to conduct such evil.

The Israeli Knesset offers an honorific title "Righteous Among the Nations" to non-Jews who helped Jews during the Holocaust. Probably the most famous of them is Oskar Schindler, whose story is told in the movie "Schindler's List". There have been over 28 thousand titles awarded, but Bernadotte is one of them. It would be just too glaring a reminder that Israel is a terrorist state, dedicated to unending crimes for the sake of land acquisition, and all the continuous violence, war, apartheid and genocide it has continued to perpetuate for 77 years.

[shaberon]

Taking into account that Israel has been a legitimate country for well over half a century now and the very idea, or ultimate goal of Islam's Hamas et al to dismantle it by killing everyone in it, is retarded.


This "legitimate country" notion is highly contrived and artificial. That's equivalent to saying whatever pours out of a government is right.

Resistance is a reaction to the Nakba committed by Israel in the 1940s, as continuous to the Greater Israel occupation we face now. The "goal" of it was to get them to leave without the necessity of war. It didn't work. Almost everyone in the area welcomed and assisted immigrants until it turned into an armed invasion.

It appears you are continuously trying to shift the blame while honoring a knight in shining armor.

We take it you are immune to the debunking premised by this thread. Should you choose to counter it, you'll have to come up with something better.

This is a military occupation bilking the gullible for tax funds and complicity.

[thirtythree]

Precisly. And we can defeat the spectre of Islamic terroism by stop funding and arming fundamentalists. Hamas was put together to counteract PLO (Palestinian Liberation Organization).

Al-Qaeda was CIA's creation.

ISIS too, to tackle the Assad regime in Syria.

More recently in 2023, over 10 billion dollars were made available to Iran by Biden in the guise of a hostage deal. Who wouldve thought those funds will make their way to Hamas to plan and execute Oct 7.

if this isn't a pattern....

[Mike]

Chris you can continue to cheerlead for Palestine and still be reasonable about the Muslim invasion going on in the rest of the world. Those 2 things aren't mutually exclusive you know?:)

That's how this thread started, right? You were upset about Raskolnikov's meme (which had nothing to do with Jews) and my subsequent thread (which was only marginally about Jews) and instead of honestly grappling with the information I offered you went right back into the wizard's circle (and then went and hid behind Bill's legs).

I think my position on Gaza might surprise you actually. I disagree with much of what's been written on the forum but I don't think Israel is entirely innocent either. No one is innocent in war.

My mile-high position is one of deep confusion. I can only offer it in the form of a question: why is nearly everyone on the planet so weirdly fixated on a piece of land the size of my palm in the middle east while the rest of the world (the west in particular) is being conquered by the "soft invasion" of Muslims?

It's the classic misdirection move. A "psy-op" as we call it here in the alt community.

There's a few people pointing at the raging inferno on the one side in an attempt to alert everyone, while nearly everyone else is on the other side obsessing over a camp fire. Gaza is a terrible tragedy, but what's in store for the rest of the world if everyone doesn't wake up quick will be infinitely worse.

You're an American Chris, right? The barbarians are knocking on the door and instead of getting clue'd in you're picking thru endless links to determine if the Caananites were really Palestinians and offering windy copy and pastes about Folke Bernadotte(?) and worrying about who farted in whose living room first back in 1150BC. It's all irrelevant.

Everyone thought I was nuts when I was screaming about the woke Marxist stuff 5 years ago. Well, looked how that turned out. This is the same thing with different costumes (sort of). But carry on. What do I know? I eagerly await your next wall of text.

[JackMcThorn]

I spent over 5 years in Europe and lived with a variety of people from the middle east, africa, and others. This is first hand experience I would not have had in the u.s.. I would not have the opportunity to commingle at the degree I did in the old country.

I was going to write about my experiences but I think the forum would require better than my opinion is capable of offering. All I need to share is that if you haven't lived with men from these regions, you don't really know about them. The good is few and far between and can be attributed to the stricture of culture, education, emotional control, and logic.

One of the good ones was Kurdish from Iraq. He rejected his muslim upbringing in light of the pursuit of knowledge with less restriction by way of closed belief systems. I helped him improve his english at every opportunity. He was a good friend and we keep in touch from time to time. The Kurds are a nation without their own country. But few discuss this in light of the broadcasting of other peoples and their fates. He cannot even communicate with his family as it will put them in danger.

With more regard to the topic; any propaganda is generally overbearing and disgusting and should not be the lone metric in order to 'pick a side' given the extent of partial truths or outright lies. Propaganda is designed to divide. My experience tells me that first-hand knowledge is more valuable than the second rate dissemination of information from official and alt interests. Some people don't know what they don't know and notwithstanding their own 'belief systems'.

[Gemma13]

Hey Chris, I've been wanting a long and reasonable conversation about this topic for some time. Conversation being the operative word here. Glad you've stepped up to the plate.

Here's the thing. We can both huddle over books in a library tossing out data points and conflicting academic and/or opinionated analyses of those data points until our teeth and pubes fall out and we still won't scratch the surface of humanity's long and complex evolution that's saturated with goodies vs baddies and baddies vs baddies and the misery of the defenceless caught inbetween.

We've got a long enough history together on Avalon to know our hearts are on the same page, so I'd like to try and find some common ground by looking at significant realities, today, that are glaringly obvious. This might bring our opposing views a little closer, and in doing so, maybe we’ll bring greater clarity to each other on our passionate positions.

Let’s take a look at the two globalists currently threatening all nations. One is headquartered in the East, the other in the West. Both suck, and both are competing against each other, but one has cleverly hitched its wagon to the other for a free ride. That be the East.

The West’s Hydra is the Great Reset, New World Order, or whatever brand they're running with. No borders, socialist-communist equality for the classes determined and handed down by global elites, and economies controlled by super entities like the United Nations and multinational corporations.

The East's Hydra also has a name: Exporting the Iranian Revolution—and they're not shy about sharing this mandate. They've just taken a little longer than the West to develop sophistication, but they got there. Khomeini says "The exporting of this revolution means the export of revolutionary values and the revelation of the tyrants and oppressors of the world, it is our divine duty. If we do not do this, we did negligence." "We say we want to export Islam, it does not mean that we get on a plane and conquest other countries. Neither we can do nor we said such a thing. But what we can do is that, with the devices we have, with the radio and television, with the press, with the groups that go abroad, with these introduce Islam as it is, as God Almighty has said, as it is in our narrations and in the Qur'an, present Islam to the people and present it to the world, and that in itself can be more effective than thousands of cannons and tanks."

Regardless of lesser conflicts of land ownership - no country is guiltless – it is wealth and strategic global politics in this hot topic that is largely ignored by those championing Hamas, aka the Muslim Brotherhood, Iran, and co. And in doing so, they are falling for their propaganda conquest playbook.

There isn't any valid argument to claim Hamas did not deliberately and provocatively incite Israel to go to war with them on Oct 7, knowing full well they were armed and ready, not to win the bloody war on the ground using their own citizens as cannon fodder, but to win the war of Eastern propaganda and global infiltration. To say otherwise, that Israel brought this on themselves, is an insult to the well organised and heavily funded Muslim Brotherhood that many are now so very fond of.

In a critique of the mess the West’s globalists are responsible for, Michael T. Flynn LTG USA (RET) has this to say: Part of this global imbalance stems from ignoring Islam’s role and influence in shaping societies, leaving nations unprepared to address both internal and external challenges.

Having dropped the ball somewhat, I imagine the World Economic Forum might be a little anxious at this point. Schwab et al have put their stake in the ground and, wait, is that a little underhanded threat?

“We strongly condemn Hamas' terrorist attacks against Israel and emphasize the need to release hostages, and stress the importance of protecting the civilian population in Gaza and taking care of the most vulnerable.
All of these developments are horrifying and could have far-reaching consequences for the Middle East in the years to come. It is our collective responsibility to focus on preventing a wider regional war, ensuring that civilians receive the support they need to survive, and ultimately achieving an agreement that brings security and peace in the region, allowing everyone to live with dignity.”

Whether we like it or not, many of our countries are directly caught up in this battle of the giants and are suffering chaos and violence as weak governments buckle under their pressure. So, do we side with the East, or the West? Should we even be choosing a side now that these tyrants are riding neck-a-neck, waving socialist flags—one seriously, one faux? Or is there another option?

Every click on social media that supports Hamas is equally empowering both the East’s political and religious global agenda and the West’s utopian global agenda. Is it therefore not only reasonable to support Israel and the USA—both fighting desperately for their Nationalism as they stand back-to-back, slashing at two hydra heads—but an urgent and critical vote in the public square?

I'd appreciate your thoughts Chris. And I'll come back later to respond to your posts about a tragic conflict that has far greater repercussions than who gets to provide fairer living conditions for residents on the soil in Gaza.

[Gemma13]

.

Let's for argument's sake say that it all started on Oct 7, Have you actually been reading the news these last 2 years or do you think disproportionate mass murdering by the zionist state is all Hamas propoganda? Is Israel operating according to western political values? Sure if those values are to oppress, invade, genocide, cry foul and gaslight the entire world.


Your comment reeks of ignorance and Islamophobia with no regard for historical events that shaped the region into what it's become.

Deep breaths chihuahua. Long road ahead.

[Kryztian]

Fiction: "The Israeli Army is the most moral army in the world. It goes to great lengths to prevent civilian deaths."
Fact:

I will let Glenn Greenwald take over on this one.


FK8wc5E_AOg

[Bill Ryan]

Another question. Israel operates in accordance with Western political values.

... but (a serious question here :flower:) — is that in some way a good thing??

[Kryztian]

Hey Chris, I've been wanting a long and reasonable conversation about this topic for some time. Conversation being the operative word here. Glad you've stepped up to the plate.


Gemma, I would like that reasonable conversation too, and would love to have it with you. There is a lot to take in here in your post and I haven't even read it that well. However, (1) it might take me some time to get to this and (2) this thread is rapidly going off topic - this is about propaganda - about very specific claims and debunking them. The question is - what is the issue we are talking about: is it about "Israel vs. Palestine" or is it "Islam vs. something else". (I would probably be a lot more interested in the Israel topic and debates about the general character of Islam is just not a use of time I am interested in.) We need a clearly defined topic, and we need to find the appropriate place to have the conversation, either an existing thread (not the big long Israel/Palestine/Syria/Iran one) or start a new one.

I would also like to ask everyone else to keep the thread on topic. I absolutely do not want to control the conversation here, but it is pretty much a forum convention that we stick to the topic. I realize now that one thing that could be in the thread and my title doesn't reflect it is that people might want to try and debunk the anti-Israel or pro-Palestine propaganda they see in the main stream media. If someone wants to do that please contact me and we can see about tweaking the title of the thread slightly.

[rgray222]

This thread is rapidly going off topic - this is about propaganda - about very specific claims and debunking them. The question is - what is the issue we are talking about: is it about "Israel vs. Palestine" or is it "Islam vs. something else". (I would probably be a lot more interested in the Israel topic, and debates about the general character of Islam is just not a use of time I am interested in.) We need a clearly defined topic, and we need to find the appropriate place to have the conversation, either an existing thread (not the big long Israel/Palestine/Syria/Iran one) or start a new one.

I would also like to ask everyone else to keep the thread on topic. I absolutely do not want to control the conversation here, but it is pretty much a forum convention that we stick to the topic. I realize now that one thing that could be in the thread and my title doesn't reflect it is that people might want to try and debunk the anti-Israel or pro-Palestine propaganda they see in the mainstream media. If someone wants to do that please contact me and we can see about tweaking the title of the thread slightly.

Removing Islam from any dialogue about Israel and Palestinians would immediately render the discussion meaningless. If you think this is about a two-state solution or who owned what land back in 1150 BCE or how the borders have shifted around since 1948, then you're kidding yourself. Pure and simple, the discussion is about Islam's unequivocal demand for the dissolution or the annihilation of Israel. This is exactly why chasing peace has been an impossible, never-ending quest.

[Gemma13]

Another question. Israel operates in accordance with Western political values.

... but (a serious question here :flower:) — is that in some way a good thing??

Preferable over Communism and Religious/Bloodline/Tyrant Dictatorships, yeah.

I'm shocked that over the past few years you appear to have abandoned the West Bill... favouring Russia, Iran, China?

Admittedly, I haven't had the opportunity to invest a lot of time here in recent years and I've yet to listen to a few of the pro-Russia podcasts you've linked, that I'd bookmarked a while back.

But damn, I'd love to hear your reasoning in a little summary to help me get my head around this. Bullet points even.

[Gemma13]

Hey Chris, I've been wanting a long and reasonable conversation about this topic for some time. Conversation being the operative word here. Glad you've stepped up to the plate.


Gemma, I would like that reasonable conversation too, and would love to have it with you. There is a lot to take in here in your post and I haven't even read it that well. However, (1) it might take me some time to get to this and (2) this thread is rapidly going off topic - this is about propaganda - about very specific claims and debunking them. The question is - what is the issue we are talking about: is it about "Israel vs. Palestine" or is it "Islam vs. something else". (I would probably be a lot more interested in the Israel topic and debates about the general character of Islam is just not a use of time I am interested in.) We need a clearly defined topic, and we need to find the appropriate place to have the conversation, either an existing thread (not the big long Israel/Palestine/Syria/Iran one) or start a new one.

I would also like to ask everyone else to keep the thread on topic. I absolutely do not want to control the conversation here, but it is pretty much a forum convention that we stick to the topic. I realize now that one thing that could be in the thread and my title doesn't reflect it is that people might want to try and debunk the anti-Israel or pro-Palestine propaganda they see in the main stream media. If someone wants to do that please contact me and we can see about tweaking the title of the thread slightly.

I agree with what rrgray said, Chris. To not pay attention to Islam when it is the fastest moving religious political ideology sweeping the world, is suicide.

Understanding the Palestine debacle by clinging to one small piece of the puzzle - the lens of Zionism - is the equivalent of spinning wheels when bogged.

I very much appreciate that you'll look over my post, and I too will come back later to nut out with you how we can move forward organically with appropriate thread titles.

[norman]

There are triangulation points on the historical map that probably should be plotted as a basis for filling the map up with ruled lines later.

The actual origin [and probable purpose] of Mohammedism was a fuzzy grey area for me, and I'm very sure for most people, until a couple of years ago when I heard someone go through the full(ish) story of when and how Mohammed came on to the world stage.

I appreciate that the teller of this story has his own angle and he's a bit loose and sloppy with some of his distinctions but the illumination it switched on for me was a turning point in my 'big-picture' development. It merged 3 of my ongoing deeper threads of enquiry into one shockingly coherent but complex rat's nest of deception and artificiality.

The plight of innocent Palestinian born children seems so unrelated, and it is, but the background stage scenery in our disgusted minds influences our processing and grappling's for solution and ending. Flipped artificiality abounds in all directions, including within what we ourselves assume is reasoned and moral, intellectually.

This is just under half an hour of less than perfect audio but listenable. It's as I downloaded it with no idea how to get my hands on the original quality audio without the man in the foreground occasionally coughing as it's being reproduced through a speaker.

29 mins
The founding and possible purpose of Mohammedism.mp3 (https://app.box.com/s/8z3gn2lil76u3f5e0iwef6q9en1fci8l)

I'll conclude this post by saying I now believe that Islam, post Roman 'Christianity' and Judaism are all fake and essentially 'Satanic'. Zionism seems to be making less effort to pass itself off as Godly than the rest, a bridge away from full on fake monotheism as a catalyst for change towards an intellectually homogenised polytheistic oneness. Check out Carl Teichrib interviews or book for some good insight into that trend.

[shaberon]

Removing Islam from any dialogue about Israel and Palestinians would immediately render the discussion meaningless. If you think this is about a two-state solution or who owned what land back in 1150 BCE or how the borders have shifted around since 1948, then you're kidding yourself. Pure and simple, the discussion is about Islam's unequivocal demand for the dissolution or the annihilation of Israel.


It was about Zionist propaganda.

Dissolving Israel would be my idea.

Is the discussion not about Israel's unequivocal plan of Eretz Yisrael?

Islam v. the west is a different story. Can anyone identify the west and give a reason anyone would care.

That America would become populated by Mexican Muslims is mathematically predictable.

The Battle of Khaybar 628 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Khaybar) is described as a "pre-emptive" strike about a Jewish coalition forming to exterminate Islam. Evidently there is some kind of dispute here.

The original Kingdom of Israel, on the other hand, existed to destroy anything different and still does. Says so in the Bible.

[Mike]

Removing Islam from any dialogue about Israel and Palestinians would immediately render the discussion meaningless. If you think this is about a two-state solution or who owned what land back in 1150 BCE or how the borders have shifted around since 1948, then you're kidding yourself. Pure and simple, the discussion is about Islam's unequivocal demand for the dissolution or the annihilation of Israel.


It was about Zionist propaganda.

Dissolving Israel would be my idea.

Is the discussion not about Israel's unequivocal plan of Eretz Yisrael?

Islam v. the west is a different story. Can anyone identify the west and give a reason anyone would care.

That America would become populated by Mexican Muslims is mathematically predictable.

The Battle of Khaybar 628 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Khaybar) is described as a "pre-emptive" strike about a Jewish coalition forming to exterminate Islam. Evidently there is some kind of dispute here.

The original Kingdom of Israel, on the other hand, existed to destroy anything different and still does. Says so in the Bible.


I'll explain what the west is in 3 sentences or less if you explain what Zionism is in 3 sentences or less. If you honor the deal I'll even explain to you why you should care, because I'm in such a good mood. Meanwhile don't go dissolving anyone on us Hitler! You'll get in trouble for that. It's mathematically predictable.

[rgray222]

This "legitimate country" notion is highly contrived and artificial. That's equivalent to saying whatever pours out of a government is right.

I can't see how you can call Israel a contrived or artificial country when there are 165 out of the 193 United Nations member states that recognize Israel as a sovereign nation. No amount of 3rd party wishful thinking will set Israel on a path to dissolution or annihilation.




Dissolving Israel would be my idea.

From where I sit, I can't see the demise of Israel. Any serious attempt to destroy Israel (I believe) would trigger a world war. If this is truly how you feel, then the early history of the region and shifting borders since 1948 are meaningless. My apologies, I thought we were looking for a discussion that might contribute to people thinking about peaceful solutions in the region.

There has been some discussion about being off topic on this thread so I will leave it here.

[Gemma13]

The actual origin [and probable purpose] of Mohammedism was a fuzzy grey area for me, and I'm very sure for most people, until a couple of years ago when I heard someone go through the full(ish) story of when and how Mohammed came on to the world stage.
I .

Thanks for this Norman. Coupled to Chris's last post, and posts from other members, here and elsewhere on the forum, it's very helpful.

I've made the fatal mistake of assuming that most members are reasonably familiar with the inception of Muhammad's Islamic faith and the defining mandate for global domination that adherents persist with to this day, because they're indoctrinated from birth to Martyr themselves and their people, no matter the bloodshed in their long game conquest, to achieve it.

I might add here that a critical point of analysis in all this is global domination that aims for forced and often brutal religious conversion vs global domination inclusive of spiritual, social, and economic freedoms. But we'll get to all that.

Focussing solely on one of the many sub parts without a clear understanding of Islam's goal, is reductionism. A dangerous limitation that sets our sights on a fraction of the elephant in the room.

If I was going to take to the streets in protest, fuelled by the click bait activism after Oct 7th, I wanted to be well informed. No different really to wanting to look at both sides of the Black Lives Matter protests that swept through our streets.

As a result, I've spent the past year deep diving into this from multiple angles, and it ain't pretty, to say the least. There's always a bigger picture - a covert, or in this case, not so covert agenda - driving chaos that the commoner is incapable of recognising when they only have space in their lives for manufactured headlines. They with the biggest propaganda machines win. At least until eyes are opened wide because of the repercussions, and it's not too late to turn back the tide.

I'll come back later with a brief 101 on Islam in the Middle East and the West, and how it relates to the current conflict with Israel, to advance our conversations and debates... level the playing field a little.

I have to add here also that I'm concerned Avalon has shifted slightly away from healthy analysis and reasonable debate with trends toward trolling uninformed, sensationalist click-bait content. A trap difficult to avoid now that this trend has become the order of the day.

I too want to be on the right side of history in these troubling times which is why I research and absorb data from multiple sources on opposing sides. They have equally guided me toward the bigger picture - the elephant in the room.

[Tintin]

An historical piece from the author Martin Amis and am unsure on the date or publication shown here, but it does sum up part of the problem: luxury beliefs occupying the minds of, often, middle-class white and often academic types who become activated without really thinking through what they promote. While we can and should rightly criticise where Western foreign policy errs and hold it to account, some greater literacy and awareness of who our enemies may really be both within and outwith is desperately needed. It is nearly always ideological in nature with religious extensions: the further from the Divine we walk we invite many a malign force into that spiritless vacuum, and we get played like old citoles:


"“People of liberal sympathies, stupefied by relativism, have become the apologists for a creedal wave that is racist, misogynist, homophobic, imperialist and genocidal. To put it another way, they are up the arse of those that want them dead.”

The full extract courtesy (https://x.com/DurhamWASP/status/1959762079029637207) here:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GzJ5OSrX0AAdJ93?format=jpg&name=medium

[Bill Ryan]

Much of this new video interview of Alastair Crooke is about the rapidly growing Israeli blood-lust — his own term for what is currently gripping many of the Israeli people and which he predicts is destined to escalate much further.

He breaks it all down in Jungian terms. It's a chilling thesis which he explains in great detail and which is one that I would submit deserves a great deal of attention. I can't recommend this too highly.

I do think it belongs on this thread. And as I've been continually striving to do for quite a long time now, I'll sit as firmly on my hands as possible to refrain from fully expressing my own very strong views on the matter.

:flower:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OqeCsHrBmFY

[Mike]

Much of this new video interview of Alastair Crooke is about the rapidly growing Israeli blood-lust — his own term for what is currently gripping many of the Israeli people and which he predicts is destined to escalate much further.

He breaks it all down in Jungian terms. It's a chilling thesis which he explains in great detail and which is one that I would submit deserves a great deal of attention. I can't recommend this too highly.

I do think it belongs on this thread. And as I've been continually striving to do for quite a long time now, I'll sit as firmly on my hands as possible to refrain from fully expressing my own very strong views on the matter.

:flower:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OqeCsHrBmFY


I'll definitely watch the video Bill. Will you watch one of mine? Serious question.

But I'd much rather hear you explain yourself in your own words. I understand the impulse to sit on your hands but it's hardly necessary at this point because you've already outlined your position for the most part.

But the gaps you're leaving by not elaborating cause more confusion than clarity. I know you're largely anti-west and anti-Israel, but what exactly are you for? If you're pro-Sharia law, I'll just assume you died and that same group of people that replaced Paul McCartney replaced you too:) If you're pro communism, then I'll just have to accept that all my anti woke rantings were a failure and I'll quit the forum in shame, and head deep into the Alaskan wilderness..never to be seen or heard from again.

I know you like Putin. I kinda like him too. But are you pro dictatorship in general or are you just comfortable with Putin in that position? Are you comfortable with a world run by someone like Xi Jinping?

Do you think the world would be a better place without personal liberties? Free speech? Free thought? Freedom to worship? To assemble? Etc

Not asking you these questions so I can pounce or attack your positions. I'm not personally offended by any of it..just genuinely curious why you're taking some of these positions. Plus I know you're dying to do it anyway lol, and I've just set the table for you perfectly (you're welcome). So let's hear it.

[shaberon]

I'll explain what the west is in 3 sentences or less if you explain what Zionism is in 3 sentences or less. If you honor the deal I'll even explain to you why you should care, because I'm in such a good mood. Meanwhile don't go dissolving anyone on us Hitler! You'll get in trouble for that. It's mathematically predictable.


No three-sentence deals.

Facing prison and death is bread and butter. That doesn't faze me.

I am the same as anyone else in being able to say how a country will be reacted to. As to its future intactness, that is, of course, beyond my control.


If multiple posters in a debunking Zionism thread would like to freelance for Hasbara, can they come up with anything that will get anyone's attention?

[Mike]

I'll explain what the west is in 3 sentences or less if you explain what Zionism is in 3 sentences or less. If you honor the deal I'll even explain to you why you should care, because I'm in such a good mood. Meanwhile don't go dissolving anyone on us Hitler! You'll get in trouble for that. It's mathematically predictable.


No three-sentence deals.

Facing prison and death is bread and butter. That doesn't faze me.

I am the same as anyone else in being able to say how a country will be reacted to. As to its future intactness, that is, of course, beyond my control.


If multiple posters in a debunking Zionism thread would like to freelance for Hasbara, can they come up with anything that will get anyone's attention?


Did you get that prison and death line from Rambo or Commando? Of course the dissolving thing was a joke. I'll have Picard update your software.

I'll freelance for anyone that pays more than Substack! But what I'd really like to know is where Chris went? Hopefully not Palestine.. not after that pro LGBTQ post of his the other day.

[Ewan]

>--snip--<

But the gaps you're leaving by not elaborating cause more confusion than clarity. I know you're largely anti-west and anti-Israel, but what exactly are you for? If you're pro-Sharia law, I'll just assume you died and that same group of people that replaced Paul McCartney replaced you too:) If you're pro communism, then I'll just have to accept that all my anti woke rantings were a failure and I'll quit the forum in shame, and head deep into the Alaskan wilderness..never to be seen or heard from again.

I know you like Putin. I kinda like him too. But are you pro dictatorship in general or are you just comfortable with Putin in that position? Are you comfortable with a world run by someone like Xi Jinping?

Do you think the world would be a better place without personal liberties? Free speech? Free thought? Freedom to worship? To assemble? Etc

Not asking you these questions so I can pounce or attack your positions. I'm not personally offended by any of it..just genuinely curious why you're taking some of these positions. Plus I know you're dying to do it anyway lol, and I've just set the table for you perfectly (you're welcome). So let's hear it.

Shame that hadn't been an open question to all and I'm not answering for anyone here - least of all Bill.

Why does one have to be FOR something, or PRO anything?

Somebody once said to me 'You must believe in something', my instant response of "Why?" seemed to exasperate/confuse them further.

I see you view Putin as a dictator (I don't), what is Trump but a spokesperson for a bunch of dictators. Correct?

Apologies for intruding.

[Tintin]

>--snip--<

But the gaps you're leaving by not elaborating cause more confusion than clarity. I know you're largely anti-west and anti-Israel, but what exactly are you for? If you're pro-Sharia law, I'll just assume you died and that same group of people that replaced Paul McCartney replaced you too:) If you're pro communism, then I'll just have to accept that all my anti woke rantings were a failure and I'll quit the forum in shame, and head deep into the Alaskan wilderness..never to be seen or heard from again.

I know you like Putin. I kinda like him too. But are you pro dictatorship in general or are you just comfortable with Putin in that position? Are you comfortable with a world run by someone like Xi Jinping?

Do you think the world would be a better place without personal liberties? Free speech? Free thought? Freedom to worship? To assemble? Etc

Not asking you these questions so I can pounce or attack your positions. I'm not personally offended by any of it..just genuinely curious why you're taking some of these positions. Plus I know you're dying to do it anyway lol, and I've just set the table for you perfectly (you're welcome). So let's hear it.

Shame that hadn't been an open question to all and I'm not answering for anyone here - least of all Bill.

Why does one have to be FOR something, or PRO anything?

Somebody once said to me 'You must believe in something', my instant response of "Why?" seemed to exasperate/confuse them further.

I see you view Putin as a dictator (I don't), what is Trump but a spokesperson for a bunch of dictators. Correct?

Apologies for intruding.

No apologies for intruding Ewan. And, yes, Putin isn't a dictator. That's a silly piece of nonsense that I've taken people to task for face-to-face when they spout that kind of narrative framed 'intelligence' agency scripted drivel at me. It's mildly irritating, at best.

We'll wait to see if Bill takes Mike's bait :)

[Gemma13]

l
If multiple posters in a debunking Zionism thread would like to freelance for Hasbara, can they come up with anything that will get anyone's attention?

Before I return with a few hard facts to bring to the table, try this on for size. I didn't write it, though I wish I had because it echoes my position on THE BIGGER PICTURE at play here.

Free Palestine? Or Free Pass for Terror?
by Lucy Tabrizi

People often ask, sometimes with curiosity, sometimes with suspicion: “Why do you talk about Israel so much?”

Fair question.

Recently, Sydney hosted a rally so huge you’d think it was a national holiday. Officially it was for the Palestinian people. In reality, it looked more like a parade for theocrats.

This is Australia. A vibrant, multicultural democracy I’ve always called home. Police estimated 90,000 people marched across the Harbour Bridge under banners of “humanity,” mostly with Palestinian flags, but among them were Taliban and Hezbollah-style flags, and portraits of Iran’s Revolutionary Guard Corps.

From the front row, a portrait of Ayatollah Khamenei could be seen. The leader of a regime that beats women for showing their hair, hangs dissidents from cranes, and guns down teenage girls for chanting “Woman, Life, Freedom.”

Islamist groups like Hizb ut-Tahrir were there too. They’re banned in Germany, the UK, and much of the Arab world, but apparently welcome in Sydney. The only Australian flag I saw was the one they set on fire.

Prime Minister Anthony Albanese called it a “peaceful” march for Gaza. Odd. The one I saw looked more like cheering on the same jihadist forces that dragged Gaza into war, hide behind civilians, steal aid, and refuse to end the fighting.

After 20 months of the largest protests in decades “for the Palestinian people,” not once have they called on Hamas to surrender, even as many Gazans plead for it. Their aim doesn’t seem to be ending what they call “genocide,” but keeping the accusation alive. When footage or casualty claims collapse, they are not relieved; they are disappointed, because worse stories mean better weapons against Israel.

I used to think Australia was a few years behind the moral rot engulfing Western Europe and North America. But I’ve since realised “Free Palestine” is a smokescreen, a way to smuggle in a war on Western civilisation under the banner of compassion. The world’s oldest hatred, dressed up as resistance to Israel, is just the entry point.

Let me rewind.

For years, most of my posts were about animal rights or the occasional rant about how the Left, my side, was drifting into authoritarianism. I was sympathetic to the Palestinian people, but I wasn’t confused about their jihadist leaders or Israel’s right to exist. I had a decent grasp of the history, yet Israel wasn’t on my radar. Then everything changed, or rather, global attention did.

On October 7th, the world witnessed one of the most barbaric terrorist attacks in modern history, filmed proudly by the attackers themselves. Civilians butchered in their beds. Children burned alive in front of their parents. Elderly Holocaust survivors dragged from their homes. Women raped, mutilated, and paraded through the streets while jeering crowds spat on their bodies. Babies and toddlers among the hundreds taken hostage. Peace activists who’d spent years building bridges with Palestinians hunted down and executed. It was the deadliest day for Jews since the Holocaust.

Where was the outrage? The solidarity? The celebrity hashtags? When Boko Haram kidnapped hundreds of schoolgirls, the world lit up with #BringBackOurGirls. When #MeToo took off, the abuse of women dominated headlines for years. When George Floyd was murdered, Black Lives Matter became a global rallying cry — yet it stayed silent when Hamas terrorists gunned down Black African farm workers on camera, with some chapters even expressing solidarity with the attackers.

No wall-to-wall coverage. No Instagram squares. No rainbow flags for the only country in the region where you can be openly gay without being flogged or hanged.

Almost overnight, Israel became the internet’s moral battleground. But the crowds in Western cities weren’t condemning the terrorists; they were defending them. Some openly celebrated. Others went for a polished version of moral inversion: “Israel had it coming.” I saw humanitarians describe the massacre as Gaza “breaking out of prison,” as if the slaughter of civilians were an act of liberation.

Imagine if, after 9/11, protesters in London, Paris, and Sydney marched with Al-Qaeda flags and Osama bin Laden’s face under banners of “humanity.” The October 7th massacre was Israel’s 9/11, many times worse in proportion to its population, yet on the very same day it was met with global justification and applause.

What stunned me more than the celebrations was how quickly NGOs, universities, media outlets and governments rushed to legitimise them. They didn’t wait for months of fighting or rising civilian casualties before turning on Israel. It happened on October 7th, before Israel had fired a single shot in return.

For anyone who thought civil society could not turn on Jews in broad daylight, this was the wake-up call. I heard it loud and clear. Those around me didn’t, and I still don’t understand how. The West had done this before, turning away Jewish refugees before the Holocaust. The majority can be catastrophically wrong. Antisemitism, long thought banished to the fringes, had come roaring back into fashion dressed as political virtue.

None of this is about claiming Israel is beyond criticism. No democracy is. But the obsessive condemnation, the grotesque double standards, and the free pass given to far worse regimes are hallmarks of antisemitism. The world’s oldest hatred, refitted for today’s politics by projecting ancient tropes and libels onto the Jewish state. And the pushback was far too weak.

It quickly became clear this was not just another regional dispute, but a civilisational fault line — between flawed but free liberal democracies and authoritarian movements like Islamism and hard-Left revolutionaries, united in their hatred of those freedoms. Iran says it openly: Israel first, the West next.

Equating a democracy with a jihadist terror group is not a serious argument. It is moral confusion. Yes, Israel has been accused of war crimes, as has every nation that has fought a war. But for Hamas, war crimes are the strategy, using civilians as shields and targeting civilians as policy. They are funded and armed by Iran, part of a broader civilisational axis that exploits Western freedoms to destroy them. Their information war has been so effective they have recruited university students and well-meaning Left-leaning activists in democracies to do their bidding.

Most people do not realise how central propaganda has been to the conflict. Since the 1960s, and even more so since the 1990s, Israel’s enemies, unable to win on the battlefield, switched tactics. They set out to delegitimise Israel in the court of public opinion until its destruction feels like justice. It has worked brilliantly, especially on well-meaning people who think they are standing for what is right.

This is not some distant issue I can ignore. It is right here in my backyard. Another march for Gaza is being pushed for across my city’s most iconic bridge.

Whenever I see those crowds, I think of the student protests in Iran before the Islamic Revolution: young, idealistic, certain they were fighting for freedom. They never intended to hand their country to religious hardliners, but that is exactly what happened. Even then, anti-Israel sentiment was a unifying rallying cry, laced with Nazi imagery and portraying the Shah, the United States, and Israel as a single axis of evil.

I don’t want that for Australia. I don’t want my children growing up under an ideology that crushes freedom, erases women’s rights, and punishes dissent with brutality. When I look at them, I care far more about the world they will inherit than about strangers on the internet calling me a “genocide supporter.” Their future matters more than my reputation with people who have lost their moral compass.

At those rallies, two kinds of people march side by side. One walks in ignorance, convinced they’re standing up for human rights. The other knows exactly what they’re marching for, and it has nothing to do with peace.

Many of my friends fell into that first camp of compassionate ignorance: well-meaning but hopelessly misinformed. When I replied to a few early on, most said they knew very little and “just wanted to help.”

Following the October 7th atrocities, many embraced a neat yet false narrative: in 1948, Israel appeared out of nowhere, ethnically cleansed the Palestinians, and has run a genocidal, apartheid regime ever since. Hamas? Iran? Jihad? Never heard of them. Just a side issue. Or, more often, “a justified response to Israeli oppression.”

Every so often, someone I know posts about “Palestine” for the first time, and I get that sinking feeling: not you, too. Then it snowballs into daily updates. Moral righteousness is a hell of a drug. And if this many people in my small circle are this easily duped, what does that say about the wider population? Is this how revolutions happen — not with a sudden bang, but with a slow drip of moral certainty that no one stops to question? Because that is exactly what Palestinian leaders have relied on for decades.

It is why they have never accepted statehood. Statelessness is their greatest weapon, winning them global sympathy to wield as a bludgeon against Israel. Most wars create refugees, and in every other context refugees are resettled and rebuild. The Palestinians were kept in place — not by Israel, but by the Arab world with help from UNRWA (the UN agency for Palestinians), the only UN agency devoted to a single group. Not to solve the problem, but to freeze it and pass it down as political leverage. In almost any other conflict, there would be no distinct Palestinian people today. Here, the grievance was preserved, nurtured, and marketed.

That grievance has found natural allies far beyond the Middle East. In Australia, “Abolish Australia” activists have linked arms with “Free Palestine” supporters. On the surface it looks like solidarity between Indigenous Australians and Palestinians. In reality, it is a convergence of activist factions, united by an ideology that frames liberal democracies as illegitimate colonial projects to be dismantled.

If they truly cared about decolonisation and Indigenous self-determination, they would support Israel’s right to exist. For the historically challenged: Jews are from Judea — the ancient name for the southern part of today’s Israel. Zionism is one of history’s most successful decolonisation movements.

Seeing Palestinians, an Arab ethno-national group, rebranded as the “First Nations” of the Middle East as they marched across the Harbour Bridge was one of the most audacious marketing coups of our time; a showcase in how completely we have inverted reality by erasing the far deeper Jewish connection to the land.

And so here we are. Another march in another city, on another bridge. Another crowd convinced they are on the side of freedom, standing shoulder to shoulder with those who would be the first to destroy it.

This is why I talk about Israel. Because history is full of moments where people cheered for movements that ended in tyranny. We are watching it happen again. And if we can’t even name it when it’s aimed at the Jewish state, we will be powerless to stop it when it comes for the rest of us.

The question that runs through my head daily is: Why are so many talking about Israel, yet so few getting it right?

https://open.substack.com/pub/futureofjewish/p/free-palestine-or-free-pass-for-terror?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android&r=19b0u2

[Jad]

I hesitated to post in this thread because I can already feel how polarized people are around this topic. But what strikes me as ironic is that many of the loudest opinions are coming from people who’ve never even set foot in the Middle East. Their views are often secondhand—shaped by the same governments and institutions that are actively importing some of the worst representatives of Middle Eastern societies into Western communities.

Think about it this way: imagine someone took the most troubled, crime-ridden, low-IQ individuals from Detroit and shipped them off to Sweden. What do you think would happen? Chaos. And yet, that’s essentially what’s happening on a global scale. In every nation—no matter the religion, culture, or ethnicity—there are people at the bottom who lack education, vision, or basic empathy. They are the ones most likely to commit horrible acts. These are the exact groups your politicians choose to move across borders, and it’s not by accident.

The effect? Societies become destabilized, people grow polarized, and communities that could have lived side by side in peace instead grow suspicious and divided. And while everyday citizens fight amongst themselves, distracted by fear and resentment, those same politicians and global interests quietly strip away freedoms, concentrate power, and prepare the ground for future conflicts.

I’ve traveled widely—Asia, the Middle East, Europe, South America—and I’ve spoken with people from every background: Christians, Muslims, Jews, Buddhists, Hindus, atheists. Everywhere I’ve gone, ordinary people want the same simple things: to make a living, raise their families, educate their kids, and live in peace. Hardly anyone cares about “dominating” another religion or spreading their belief system. That’s a myth perpetuated to keep us divided.

Yes, in every faith and every culture there are small minority groups clinging to archaic religious dogmas and trying to impose them on modern society. But the truth is, most people don’t have time for that nonsense. They’re too busy working, surviving, and trying to give their children a better life.
And yet, global powers know exactly how to exploit these fringe groups. They uproot them, move them into new countries, and use them as cultural tripwires to spark division. Once hate and suspicion are seeded, it doesn’t take much to escalate into social conflict—or even war. And when war comes, the people are already preconditioned to accept it, because the hostility was manufactured long before the first shot was fired.

[Rizotto]

Quite telling that this thread which was started as an examination of zionism has turned into an anti-islam discussion by the same individuals who also praise Trump...

Let's come back to the original questions raised by this thread, "How to debunk blatantly false Zionist propaganda". The sure sign for detecting 'false zionist propaganda' is their trick of demonizing & dehumanizing those whom they wish to eliminate. Hence their resort to anti-islam propaganda, while at the same time the Israeli genocide of Palestinians is really about killing arabs, whether muslims, christians, or even jewish arabs. The IDF bombed christian churches and synagogues in Gaza as much as they bombed mosques. It is truly about the elimination of the native arab population. But the zionists can't just say 'we need to eliminate arabs', that wouldn't do. So the next best pretext is to blackball a religion.

By the way, I'm not attached to any particular religion myself. History tells us that Judaism, Christianity, and Islam have all had their dark episodes of straying from their original inspiration. Greed is often the main driver in political or religious conflicts, as the video below concludes. Very interesting analysis of zionist values.

Think Israel Is Bad? Wait Until You See Its Society!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e1h5kshVfAM

[Bill Ryan]

Not asking you these questions so I can pounce or attack your positions. I'm not personally offended by any of it..just genuinely curious why you're taking some of these positions. Plus I know you're dying to do it anyway lol, and I've just set the table for you perfectly (you're welcome). So let's hear it.



We'll wait to see if Bill takes Mike's bait :)https://avalonlibrary.net/Bill/Your_Jedi_mind_tricks_ won't_work_on_me.jpg

:P

[Mike]

>--snip--<

But the gaps you're leaving by not elaborating cause more confusion than clarity. I know you're largely anti-west and anti-Israel, but what exactly are you for? If you're pro-Sharia law, I'll just assume you died and that same group of people that replaced Paul McCartney replaced you too:) If you're pro communism, then I'll just have to accept that all my anti woke rantings were a failure and I'll quit the forum in shame, and head deep into the Alaskan wilderness..never to be seen or heard from again.

I know you like Putin. I kinda like him too. But are you pro dictatorship in general or are you just comfortable with Putin in that position? Are you comfortable with a world run by someone like Xi Jinping?

Do you think the world would be a better place without personal liberties? Free speech? Free thought? Freedom to worship? To assemble? Etc

Not asking you these questions so I can pounce or attack your positions. I'm not personally offended by any of it..just genuinely curious why you're taking some of these positions. Plus I know you're dying to do it anyway lol, and I've just set the table for you perfectly (you're welcome). So let's hear it.

Shame that hadn't been an open question to all and I'm not answering for anyone here - least of all Bill.

Why does one have to be FOR something, or PRO anything?

Somebody once said to me 'You must believe in something', my instant response of "Why?" seemed to exasperate/confuse them further.

I see you view Putin as a dictator (I don't), what is Trump but a spokesperson for a bunch of dictators. Correct?

Apologies for intruding.



Because at the top of any given hierarchy, if one set of values degrades another will arrive to take its place. If you don't participate in the collective ethos, your indifference will be taken up by tyrants and used against you at some point.

No such thing as a vacuum at the top of a hierarchy. Individually and societally we require a specific set of values to organize our psyches, usually in the form of religion. When those values degrade you get the collective madness of 'woke' and things like that. Or you begin to tolerate intolerance, much like the west is doing now by importing Islam.

I would have given the same answer you just gave not too long ago, btw. But now I see the value in certain institutions I didn't see before. They're load bearing walls. "Pro" can be reductive at times, but it's more useful than reductive in larger contexts.

re Putin: he's not Stalin, and I don't think he's evil (or any other of the western tropes that get regurgitated in the MSM). But he's much more dictator'ish than anything else one might imagine him to be. I admire him, but I wouldn't trust anyone without a functioning set of checks and balances. I'm a Trump guy, but I wouldn't trust him either in that situation.

[Mike]

Not asking you these questions so I can pounce or attack your positions. I'm not personally offended by any of it..just genuinely curious why you're taking some of these positions. Plus I know you're dying to do it anyway lol, and I've just set the table for you perfectly (you're welcome). So let's hear it.



We'll wait to see if Bill takes Mike's bait :)https://avalonlibrary.net/Bill/Your_Jedi_mind_tricks_ won't_work_on_me.jpg

:P

Ha! Touche.

I did watch the video you posted. Lindsay Graham is a demented weasel, and I don't like him either. Even in conservative circles, he's pretty polarizing. He is representative of a certain type of warmongering type, but I've seen very few US politicians express his brand of zealotry. So I'm with you on that one.

As far as the mythical stuff, Apolloian vs Dionysian:
I think it's largely a superficial metaphor. But there is some truth to it, only not in the way I think the man suggests.

I don't know if I'd prefer Trump as a peacetime president in a sane world. But in a largely insane world, full of all kinds of unexpected mountains to climb and walls to bash down, it requires a certain kind of grandiose individual. In that way he's perfectly suited to the task at hand. His actions often seem radical but radical action is often required when attempting to undo previous radicalism. Of course his actions are cast as unhinged and unpredictable, while his predecessor was considered measured and grounded.

But..yes he has something of an Appolonian streak, but I would argue it's the only reason he's effective in these times. He would have never gotten elected were he not unpredictable and Apollonian. Shutting down the border, eradicating woke in government and universities, defunding woke public radio .. no one alive has the kind of energy and balls to do what he did and is doing. He saved the U.S., and by extension the west. And by further extension, the world I would argue.

[Mike]

Quite telling that this thread which was started as an examination of zionism has turned into an anti-islam discussion by the same individuals who also praise Trump...

Let's come back to the original questions raised by this thread, "How to debunk blatantly false Zionist propaganda". The sure sign for detecting 'false zionist propaganda' is their trick of demonizing & dehumanizing those whom they wish to eliminate. Hence their resort to anti-islam propaganda, while at the same time the Israeli genocide of Palestinians is really about killing arabs, whether muslims, christians, or even jewish arabs. The IDF bombed christian churches and synagogues in Gaza as much as they bombed mosques. It is truly about the elimination of the native arab population. But the zionists can't just say 'we need to eliminate arabs', that wouldn't do. So the next best pretext is to blackball a religion.

By the way, I'm not attached to any particular religion myself. History tells us that Judaism, Christianity, and Islam have all had their dark episodes of straying from their original inspiration. Greed is often the main driver in political or religious conflicts, as the video below concludes. Very interesting analysis of zionist values.

Think Israel Is Bad? Wait Until You See Its Society!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e1h5kshVfAM


You don't think we've done enough Zionism examining here lately?:) ( a term btw no one can seem to define in any meaningful way).

Why don't we have the big picture conversation instead? That's all I'm suggesting. This thread is gaining steam so I'd like to do it here. But if Chris is strongly opposed, I can start my own thread. If only someone knew where he went...

[Raskolnikov]

Really Mike, Commando or Rambo? Almost spit my coffee on the screen. A balanced perspective is important in all things, especially where Islam and Israel come into play, both sides of that coin are blood red btw, so if I come across cold, heartless, or indifferent, it's because I AM trying to remain indifferent and share both sides of the story without becoming emotionally involved. If I sometimes take the liberty of peddling in what some might call
trolling uninformed, sensationalist click-bait well, 1) I understand that was probably not directly directed at me, at least I hope it wasn't, 2) it's not uninformed, and 3) there's also something to be said for a new artform that can get to the heart of the matter in single image and a few carefully crafted words, cue Bill's response to Mike. We are trying to wake the masses afterall, can you picture the CNN crowd reading and comprehending anything you wrote Gemma? I doubt it. Thanks all for the continuing insights and knowledge, it's appreciated. That said, I'm just going to drop this here. While I don't condone praising "the Party" by any means, it seems there's patriots on both sides, this time in Russia. If she were an American, Mike, I could see you two walkin' the aisle. Let me know when you want the bachelor party.

With your permission Russian Bear.




PATRIOT

I want to tell you about our beloved system,
It seems to me that each of you will agree with me,
Everyone says that everything is very good in the West,
Whoever tells me this, I will wipe it into dust!

Everything that is Soviet is cool, cars and pants,
Let everything be expensive, but everything is ours, guys,
Don't sneer at me so fiercely and don't sneer,
I know that the best currency in the world is our Tambov ruble.

We sing the glory of the beloved and native party,
For ruling our country so wonderfully,
For bread, for water, for freedom, for happy work,
Soviet missiles will wipe all the bourgeois into dust!

Well, what good do they have, only shame and disgrace:
Tape recorders, VCRs, why do we need them,
We will sing to the accordion about our beloved land,
Where for an honest worker, not life, but simply paradise.

Stop listening to your bourgeois rock, join the CPSU!

And develop a patriotic spirit in yourself,
We all live very happily in the Soviet country.
Oh, how sad for the workers who rot abroad!

We sing the glory of the beloved and native party,
For ruling our country so beautifully,
For bread, for water, for freedom, for happy work,
Soviet missiles will grind all the bourgeois into dust!

My native country is wide and there is a lot in it,
And who said that there is nothing in the stores
Open your eyes and look - on the shelves there is soft, fresh bread,
And mineral water, are you completely blind?!

Thanks to our party, we bow to it to the ground,
For its honor we will all stand together as a dense wall,
With a callus at the factory we will earn rubles,
And we will give it to the peace fund and to the fund of our native party!

We sing the glory of the beloved and native party,
For the fact that it rules our country so beautifully,
For bread, for water, for freedom, for happy work,
Soviet missiles will wipe all the bourgeois into dust!

[rgray222]

But if Chris is strongly opposed, I can start my own thread. If only someone knew where he went...

This appears to be a thread that is picking up steam, and it certainly has some worthwhile discussion, but.................the title of this thread is not what the discussion is about. It is confusing to me, and it must be even more so with non-members who don't frequent the forum. I would imagine it is not getting the traffic that it could or should because of the title. The expansion of Islam around the world is a hot topic and will probably remain so for quite a while. I don't want to be the one to start a new thread because the discussion here has merit. I think a new title, something along the lines of
Islam's Expansion and the Future of Israel might be more appropriate.
Any thoughts

[Vicus]

Simple Fact:

Israel as state should NEVER came to be/ existed...the REAL Jude's say so...

In that case: why All the native Americans could not keep THEIR territory's? ...

The Fictions:

All the suppose religious text altered trough centuries ... from every Hegemon at any given time...

Enter the mind parasite: Zionism... :sherlock:

[bojancan]

I am adding this interesting video in this thread... I think suits here... it's about Israel's expansion to Cyprus... Cyprael promised land? Zionist project... for sure... and where else????



Aug, 26
Reason2Resist with Dimitri Lascaris
96.9K subscribers
The Zionists Takeover Of Cyprus
BZfCpd0VsPw

Several weeks ago, Stefanos Stefanou, the leader of the Cypriot AKEL party, generated controversy when he warned of the Israeli influx into the island and the threat of Zionist expansionism.

AKEL is the second-largest political party in Cyprus. The governing Cypriot party, the Democratic Rally, is strongly pro-Israel.

Predictably, Stefanou’s warning about Israeli expansionism ignited charges of racism. Israel’s ambassador to Cyprus, Oren Anolik, accused Stefanou of “plain and simple” antisemitism.

Stefanou did not back down, however. He vigorously denied the charge of antisemitism and stated that “Israel tolerates no criticism and wants to control everything”.

Are Zionists seeking to take control of Cyprus? Dimitri Lascaris explores this question with Elina Xenophontos. Elina is geopolitical analyst and international law and globalization specialist. She is based in Cyprus

[Gemma13]

BREAKING NEWS
This, on the front page of The West Australian Newspaper today. About bloody time our government grabbed its balls and acted.

I’ve typed the text below for easier reading. (Most text is in the second photo but I couldn't get it to upload and I don't have time to fiddle with it atm.)

TERROR STRIKES HOME – IRAN’S ACT OF WAR

These were dangerous acts of aggression orchestrated by a foreign nation on Australian Soil. – Prime Minister Anthony Albanese

ASIO now assesses the Iranian Government directed at least two and likely more attacks. – ASIO Director Mike Burgess

Iran has orchestrated two terror attacks—and likely more—on Australian soil that were disguised as criminal anti-Semitic bombings. It has been confirmed the nation was behind an arson attack at a kosher caterer in Bondi last October and a firebombing at a Melbourne synagogue two months later. The shocking revelations yesterday prompted the Prime Minister to expel the Iranian ambassador, recall Australian diplomats and send an urgent plea for any travellers to return home.

Iran Evil Shows What The World is Up Against

For more than 40 years, Iran’s chief foreign policy instrument has been state-sponsored terrorism abroad. The specific targets shift, but the methods and the goals stay the same. They employ a network of terrorist proxies and criminal surrogates around the world. They seek out wannabe lone wolves to manipulate and coerce.

And they provide them with the resources and inspiration to stoke fear, sow discord and pursue their hateful, depraved jihad far beyond their own borders. They kill, kidnap, and harass.

This is not a new phenomenon. But as war rages in the Middle East, provoked by the mass slaughter of 1200 Israelis by the Iran-backed terrorist militia Hamas on October 7, 2023, the threat has escalated.

In Europe, Swedish criminal syndicate Foxtrot Network has expanded from drug trafficking into terror on behalf of Iran, spreading the rogue nation’s maniacal message through contract killings and assaults as well as attacks on Israeli embassies in Sweden and Denmark.

Last year, the head of UK’s MI5 said British authorities had responded to 20 Iran-backed plots since 2022.

Now we know the threat has reached our shores.

Authorities say Iran was pulling the strings of those responsible for at least two anti-Semitic attacks on Australian soil. Likely, that number is greater.

The first attack was on Lewis’ Continental Kitchen in Bondi in NSW. The deli was set ablaze in October 2024, causing $1 million in damage. Then in December, the nation was shocked when Melbourne’s Adass Israel Synagogue was firebombed.

It was an act of anti-Semitism so egregious, so appalling, that it was difficult to countenance such a crime could take place in Australia.

We now know the truth. This was an act of terror conceived across the world, by a nation with an all-consuming obsession with the obliteration of Israel and the destruction of liberal democracy.

It is a mercy that no one was killed in either attack. But they were successful in perpetuating anti-Semitism and striking fear into the hearts of Jewish Australians.

Rightly, Australia has reacted by ordering Iranian Ambassador Ahmad Sadeghi and three other Iranian officials to leave the country within seven days. Australian diplomats in Iran have been evacuated. It’s the first time since World War II that Australia has expelled an Ambassador.

These revelations are a powerful reminder of what the world—not just Israel—is up against.

We are fighting against unhinged, fanatical despots who want to destroy our way of life, tear at our social cohesion and spread their hateful ideology. We cannot continue to pretend that this is solely a foreign conflict in which we have no stake.

This is what those who rail against Israel and shout the slogans of its enemies are cheering for. Terror and destruction. Not only against Israel but in every corner of the world, including our own.



55719

[Rizotto]

To Gemma13: Judging by the hysterical tone of the article, this is a false flag. Why in the world would Iran blow up a jewish restaurant and a synagogue in Australia, of all places. Iran has much bigger issues to deal with in their corner of the world: Iran was the subject of unprovoked attacks from Israel and USA in June, surprise attacks that killed hundreds of Iranian civilians. And many experienced geopolitical analysts are currently warning that Israel is planning another attack on Iran, imminently.

Looks like the z10nist mafia is now making up post-dated allegations against Iran to try to justify, or divert attention from their own horrific genocide of Palestinians and crimes against Iran and other countries in the middle east.

Fact is, Iran has a Jewish community living there peacefully.

But, hey, I think your post is perfectly fitting in this "false zionist propaganda" thread.

[Gemma13]

To Gemma13: Judging by the hysterical tone of the article, this is a false flag.
You ever going to open up another brain cell to shift your logic out of stupid?

[Rizotto]

https://www.rt.com/news/623557-australia-expels-iranian-envoy/

August 26, 2025

Australia expels Iranian ambassador over alleged ‘anti-Semitic’ attacks
Tehran has rejected Canberra’s claim it was behind arson incidents in Sydney and Melbourne targeting the Jewish community

Australia is expelling Iranian Ambassador Ahmad Sadeghi and three other diplomats over alleged ‘anti-Semitic’ attacks in the country that were supposedly orchestrated by Tehran, Prime Minister Anthony Albanese has announced. The Islamic Republic has denied the allegations.

Speaking at a press conference on Tuesday, Albanese said that the Australian Federal Police and the Australian Security Intelligence Organisation (ASIO) had gathered “credible intelligence” linking at least two arson attacks last year to the Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps (IRGC) – an elite wing of the Iranian military. The perpetrators allegedly set fire to a Jewish-owned restaurant in Sydney and the Adass Israel Synagogue in Melbourne.

The prime minister added that a potential Iranian connection was being investigated in relation to several other attacks as well.

According to Albanese, Canberra has also suspended operations at its embassy in Tehran and relocated its diplomatic staff to a third country.

Canberra’s Foreign Minister Penny Wong has urged all Australians currently in Iran to leave.

In a post on X on Tuesday, Iranian Foreign Minister Seyed Abbas Araghchi denied the allegations, noting that his country is home to a sizeable Jewish community and dozens of synagogues.

“I am not in the habit of joining causes with wanted war criminals, but [Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin] Netanyahu is right about one thing: Australia’s PM is indeed a ‘weak politician’,” Araghchi wrote.

He was apparently referring to a post by Netanyahu last Tuesday, in which the Israeli prime minister accused Albanese of betraying “Israel and abandoning Australia’s Jews” after Canberra announced that it would recognize a Palestinian state at the United Nations General Assembly in September.

“History will remember Albanese for what he is: a weak politician,” Netanyahu wrote at the time.

Israel’s heavy-handed military campaign in Gaza has drawn widespread condemnation worldwide, prompting renewed calls in countries that have traditionally backed Israel to recognize Palestinian statehood.

[Gemma13]

https://www.rt.com/news/623557-australia-expels-iranian-envoy/

August 26, 2025

Tehran has rejected Canberra’s claim it was behind arson incidents in Sydney and Melbourne targeting the Jewish community[/B]
.
Well knock me over with a feather... who woulda thought...

[Rizotto]

Apparently, Netanyahu himself takes credit for getting Australia to make accusations against Iran and expel Iranian ambassador...

But what's even worse, is that the accusations against Iran are now used by the Israeli embassy to whip up notions of Iran being dangerous to the west. (See highlighted paragraph below) All of which is so typical of the false flags that Israel has used time and again over many decades to get western nations to wage wars in the middle east for Israel's benefit.

The accusations against Iran are absurd. Why would Iran conduct arson attacks on a jewish restaurant and a synagogue, in Australia of all places, and during pro-Palestinian protests, which at the time raised suspicions against the protesters being the culprits. But now they claim Iran did it, after some pressure from Netanyahu? He really wants a war against Iran, does he.

____________________________________________________________

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2025/8/27/australia-denies-iran-action-due-to-intervention-by-israels-netanyahu

August 27, 2025

Australia denies Iran action due to ‘intervention’ by Israel’s Netanyahu
Israel made the claim after Australia’s PM said Iran directed two attacks on a Jewish community, which Tehran denies.

Australia has dismissed a claim that Israeli interventions prompted the government of Prime Minister Anthony Albanese to expel Iran’s ambassador to Canberra, after the premier blamed Tehran for directing anti-Semitic attacks in Sydney and Melbourne.

“Complete nonsense,” Australian Minister for Home Affairs Tony Burke told ABC Radio on Wednesday, when asked about Israel claiming credit for Australia’s decision to order Tehran’s ambassador, Ahmad Sadeghi, to leave the country.

Albanese said on Tuesday that Australia had reached “the deeply disturbing conclusion” through “credible intelligence” that found Iran’s government had “directed” at least two attacks against Australia’s Jewish community.

Responding to a question from the ABC about Australia’s allegations against Iran, Israeli government spokesperson David Mencer had commended Australia for taking “threats seriously” against the Jewish community, which he said had come after a “forthright intervention” from Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu.

Mencer said Netanyahu had “made very forthright comments about the [Australian] prime minister himself”, which spurred Albanese to action.
“He made those comments because he did not believe that the actions of the Australian government had gone anywhere near far enough to address the issues of anti-Semitism,” Mencer added.

The ABC included Mencer’s comments in an article titled: “Israeli government claims credit for pushing Albanese to expel Iranian diplomats.”

Netanyahu last week accused Albanese of being “a weak politician who betrayed Israel and abandoned Australia’s Jews”, days after Albanese announced Australia would move to formally recognise a Palestinian state in September.

Iran said it “absolutely rejected” Australia’s accusations regarding the attacks and noted that the claims had come after Australia had directed “limited criticism” at Israel.
“It seems that this action is taken in order to compensate for the limited criticism the Australian side has directed at the Zionist regime [Israel],” Iranian Ministry of Foreign Affairs spokesman Esmaeil Baghaei said.
“Any inappropriate and unjustified action on a diplomatic level will have a reciprocal reaction,” Baghaei said.

Ilana Lenk, the spokesperson and head of public diplomacy at Israel’s embassy in Canberra, shared Australian newspaper front pages with headlines including, ‘Iran attacks us’ and ‘Iran targets Bondi deli’, in a post on social media.
“We warned Iran wouldn’t stop with Israel or the Jewish people. The West is next isn’t just a slogan, and today Australia sees it,” she wrote.

In a statement, the Jewish Council of Australia said it was “shocked to learn of the Iranian government involvement in coordinating antisemitic attacks”.

“The fact that a foreign government appears to be responsible shows how irresponsible it was for the attacks to be used to demonise the Palestine solidarity protest movement ,” the council said in a statement.

“We call on politicians and the media to exercise caution and to avoid politicisation of these attacks in a way that could further harm the Jewish community,” the statement added.

[Ewan]

To Gemma13: Judging by the hysterical tone of the article, this is a false flag.
You ever going to open up another brain cell to shift your logic out of stupid?

.....'Before you can remove the splinter from your brothers eye you must first remove the timber from your own'.

Said in a gentle placatory tone. :handshake:

[Gemma13]

To Gemma13: Judging by the hysterical tone of the article, this is a false flag.
You ever going to open up another brain cell to shift your logic out of stupid?

.....'Before you can remove the splinter from your brothers eye you must first remove the timber from your own'.

Said in a gentle placatory tone. :handshake:

😆 In future, I'll know who to call on for pearls of wisdom.

[Gemma13]

https://open.substack.com/pub/tzlilberko/p/we-will-not-stop-until-it-islam-enters?utm_campaign=post&utm_medium=web

Oof. Quite a show. I don't know how to copy and insert the video clip, but I dare you to click on the link above and watch all 129 seconds of it.

And if that, and the crowd cheering doesn't make you sit up and pick a few crunchy bits outta sleepy eyes so that a few more brain cells can fire up to do a little more research... I don't know what will.

Might I suggest research that's, you know, a few yards to the left or right of Russia's State backed RT feed and Al Jazeera, which incidentally, was banned by the Palestinian Authority because "...the channel broadcast material that was deceiving and stirring strife". So, there's that.

Oi Raskolnikov Howz that clip for an artwork that can get to the heart of the matter in a single image? 😋

"We Will Not Stop Until It (Islam) Enters Every Home" He Declared in the Heart of New York City

Tzlil Berko, 27 Aug 2025

Dear Western world,

You need to understand, this bearded radical Islamist that is in the attached video is shouting that Islam is the ONLY true religion. He is standing in the heart of Manhattan declaring, “we will not stop until it enters every home”, and the audience is… cheering.

Make no mistake: That includes your home.

Question: By what means do he and his “brothers and sisters” (as he calls them) plan to insert Islam into “every home”? Have you ever stopped to think about that?

There is no way to misinterpret his intent. I do not see the entire Christian majority of America converting to Islam voluntarily, so let me challenge you with the obvious question: HOW is he planning to “enter every home” and transform humanity into Islam, as he preaches in this video? HOW? 🤔

He declares, “all of humanity needs to be upon Islam.” And he does not say this in the Islamic Republic of Iran or in Gaza but in the heart of the Big Apple. Under the banner of free speech… which in Islamist vocabulary means “a free pass granted by suicidal democracies to call for your death and destruction”… he openly preaches Islamic takeover through coercion; The meaning is clear: forced submission to Islam or slaughter like sheep.

All of this while American law enforcement stands idly by.

A thought: How about each and every one of us chooses our own faith, our own religion, without force or gradual cultural colonialism?

It is a beautiful idea… I know… and one that aligns perfectly with our ideals and moral values in the West. But these radical Islamist jihadists, like this savage shouting in New York City, do not share our values, nor do they even pretend to.

I would have liked to wake you up West, and warn you that you are next… But it seems we have already passed the point of “next.” It is already at your front door, and believe us Israelis, it does not knock.

This all stems from the same deadly and dangerous radical Jihadist movement that is currently threatening the entire free world: the Muslim Brotherhood.

The Muslim Brotherhood publicly and actively pursues the conquest of the entire world and the establishment of one state, one global Umma under Sharia law. In Islamic doctrine, the Umma refers to the worldwide community of Muslims, which in the Brotherhood’s apocalyptic ideology must be united as a single body through the reestablishment of the khilāfah (Caliphate); Islamists view the Caliphate as the religious and political embodiment of the Umma and the ultimate restoration of Islamic rule over all of humanity.

And what does Sharia law mean in short? A fanatical religious law that stones women based on rumors of infidelity to their abusive husband or for revealing a single strand of hair. Truly lovely, isn’t it? Not medieval cruelty and barbarism at all…

Let me repeat that in case you missed it the first time. This dangerous Islamist Jihadist ideology is a source of satanic evil and threatens the entire free world. You and I are both “infidels” in their eyes… and what do they do to infidels? They September 11 them.

The savage in the attached video, along with millions of others like him, are planning to unleash an October 7th-style genocide on you as well: raping you, beheading your children before your very eyes, torturing your loved ones, kidnapping your babies, and burning you alive - exactly as they did to us Israelis less than two years ago, filming the atrocities as a “letter of intent” for what they plan for you too.

Do not be deceived. They do not reserve their devilish brutality for Israel alone. Please, do not be naive, for they weaponize your naivety in order to destroy you.

Make no mistake. The Islamist Jihadists’ god is not a deity of compassion or morality… They use “Allah” to justify their inhuman brutality and barbarism against anyone who is not them, including fellow Arabs, shouting Allahu Akbar while shoving babies into ovens and abusing God’s name to murder unarmed civilians with impunity; all in pursuit of dragging humanity back to the 7th century. And what happened then? The violent Islamic conquests. Read about it. It is extremely eye opening.

Don’t look away. It will catch you off guard. The “theatre of terror” is playing on Broadway too and no one gets to leave the theatre once the show has begun…

Wake up or this guy in the video and his “brothers and sisters” will accomplish their stated goal.

P.S.
What exactly is he complaining about at the start of the video? As if life in America is some form of torture…

If New York is really that unbearable for him, why not just move to Gaza?
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[I]Tzlil Berko is a seasoned professional in private security with experience in tactical gear and simulation technologies. Her thesis research focuses on terrorism in the Metaverse.

She is a fellow at the Investigative Project on Terrorism (IPT), where she publishes on counter-terrorism and emerging threats. Tzlil is also a creative writer, represented alongside her parents by The Blair Partnership Literary and Entertainment Agency, and is the co-creator of a television project inspired by the published books of her mother, Dr. Anat Berko, and their extraordinary family story.

[Raskolnikov]

To Gemma13: Judging by the hysterical tone of the article, this is a false flag.
You ever going to open up another brain cell to shift your logic out of stupid?

.....'Before you can remove the splinter from your brothers eye you must first remove the timber from your own'.

Said in a gentle placatory tone. :handshake:

I’ve got a question. How can a headline like "TERROR STRIKES HOME - IRAN'S ACT OF WAR", in all caps, NOT be propaganda? Was the media completely overhauled and I didn’t hear about it? Now the Blackrock corporate headlines are a legitimate source of news? If you need further proof, recall the words of Wesley Clark revealing the plan in a classified memo, “This is a memo that describes how we’re going to take out seven countries in five years, starting with Iraq, and then Syria, Lebanon, Libya, Somalia, Sudan and, finishing off, Iran.” I said, “Is it classified?” He said, “Yes, sir.” I said, “Well, don’t show it to me.” Business as usual. Think it might be safer to say that it’s closer to the truth to put your faith in what they’re not showing us, let alone blasting in our faces. It comes across eerily similar to what you were accusing others of promoting on this forum.

I’m no scholar of either side of this mess but all I’m seeing is people being pulled into two camps. They’re dividing us even here, are we not now in the middle east ourselves? Yes, they brought it here to the western world, let’s pray the suicide bombings don’t start. For me the whole conversation/argument feels analogous to the current allopathic medical system that treats and focuses solely on the symptoms without first considering the cause and the reason for such disease. Rgray222, you asked to alter the name of the thread. I, personally, for reasons most know, would never presume to be so disrespectful, considering who started the thread (and just so there's no misunderstanding that horribly put together sentence - yep, English major - that was in no way implying you're being disrespectful Rgray), but maybe it should be focused a bit more on the big picture, keep the propaganda, but it’s definitely expanded beyond a simple examination of Israel and Zionism.

[thirtythree]

Removing Islam from any dialogue about Israel and Palestinians would immediately render the discussion meaningless. If you think this is about a two-state solution or who owned what land back in 1150 BCE or how the borders have shifted around since 1948, then you're kidding yourself. Pure and simple, the discussion is about Islam's unequivocal demand for the dissolution or the annihilation of Israel.


It was about Zionist propaganda.

Dissolving Israel would be my idea.

Is the discussion not about Israel's unequivocal plan of Eretz Yisrael?

Islam v. the west is a different story. Can anyone identify the west and give a reason anyone would care.

That America would become populated by Mexican Muslims is mathematically predictable.

The Battle of Khaybar 628 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Khaybar) is described as a "pre-emptive" strike about a Jewish coalition forming to exterminate Islam. Evidently there is some kind of dispute here.

The original Kingdom of Israel, on the other hand, existed to destroy anything different and still does. Says so in the Bible.


I'll explain what the west is in 3 sentences or less if you explain what Zionism is in 3 sentences or less. If you honor the deal I'll even explain to you why you should care, because I'm in such a good mood. Meanwhile don't go dissolving anyone on us Hitler! You'll get in trouble for that. It's mathematically predictable.


I'll take a crack at it Mike.

As it currently stands:

Ethno-supremicism, masquerading as ethno-religious nationalism.

[Mike]

Removing Islam from any dialogue about Israel and Palestinians would immediately render the discussion meaningless. If you think this is about a two-state solution or who owned what land back in 1150 BCE or how the borders have shifted around since 1948, then you're kidding yourself. Pure and simple, the discussion is about Islam's unequivocal demand for the dissolution or the annihilation of Israel.


It was about Zionist propaganda.

Dissolving Israel would be my idea.

Is the discussion not about Israel's unequivocal plan of Eretz Yisrael?

Islam v. the west is a different story. Can anyone identify the west and give a reason anyone would care.

That America would become populated by Mexican Muslims is mathematically predictable.

The Battle of Khaybar 628 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Khaybar) is described as a "pre-emptive" strike about a Jewish coalition forming to exterminate Islam. Evidently there is some kind of dispute here.

The original Kingdom of Israel, on the other hand, existed to destroy anything different and still does. Says so in the Bible.


I'll explain what the west is in 3 sentences or less if you explain what Zionism is in 3 sentences or less. If you honor the deal I'll even explain to you why you should care, because I'm in such a good mood. Meanwhile don't go dissolving anyone on us Hitler! You'll get in trouble for that. It's mathematically predictable.


I'll take a crack at it Mike.

As it currently stands:

Ethno-supremicism, masquerading as ethno-religious nationalism.



Thanks! I appreciate that.

I always thought of Zionists as the sort of Israeli deep state, but never gave it much thought beyond that. I assumed Zionists weren't truly interested in the well-being of Jews at all, but were just co-opting Jewishness as a means of gaining a larger foothold in the middle east.

I've been asking lately not to be a pest, but because I wanted to demonstrate that if you asked, say, 20 people what Zionsim is you were likely to get 20 different answers. And I've been wondering: is everybody up in arms over the same thing or 20 different things?

[thirtythree]

Removing Islam from any dialogue about Israel and Palestinians would immediately render the discussion meaningless. If you think this is about a two-state solution or who owned what land back in 1150 BCE or how the borders have shifted around since 1948, then you're kidding yourself. Pure and simple, the discussion is about Islam's unequivocal demand for the dissolution or the annihilation of Israel.


It was about Zionist propaganda.

Dissolving Israel would be my idea.

Is the discussion not about Israel's unequivocal plan of Eretz Yisrael?

Islam v. the west is a different story. Can anyone identify the west and give a reason anyone would care.

That America would become populated by Mexican Muslims is mathematically predictable.

The Battle of Khaybar 628 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Khaybar) is described as a "pre-emptive" strike about a Jewish coalition forming to exterminate Islam. Evidently there is some kind of dispute here.

The original Kingdom of Israel, on the other hand, existed to destroy anything different and still does. Says so in the Bible.


I'll explain what the west is in 3 sentences or less if you explain what Zionism is in 3 sentences or less. If you honor the deal I'll even explain to you why you should care, because I'm in such a good mood. Meanwhile don't go dissolving anyone on us Hitler! You'll get in trouble for that. It's mathematically predictable.


I'll take a crack at it Mike.

As it currently stands:

Ethno-supremicism, masquerading as ethno-religious nationalism.



Thanks! I appreciate that.

I always thought of Zionists as the sort of Israeli deep state, but never gave it much thought beyond that. I assumed Zionists weren't truly interested in the well-being of Jews at all, but were just co-opting Jewishness as a means of gaining a larger foothold in the middle east.

I've been asking lately not to be a pest, but because I wanted to demonstrate that if you asked, say, 20 people what Zionsim is you were likely to get 20 different answers. And I've been wondering: is everybody up in arms over the same thing or 20 different things?


Anytime.

We could also argue that India and Iran fit that definition. Bottom line is, it's not sustainable. Unfortunately, zealots everywhere somehow make their way to the corridors of power and identity is too powerful a tool to not deploy.

[Tintin]

Removing Islam from any dialogue about Israel and Palestinians would immediately render the discussion meaningless. If you think this is about a two-state solution or who owned what land back in 1150 BCE or how the borders have shifted around since 1948, then you're kidding yourself. Pure and simple, the discussion is about Islam's unequivocal demand for the dissolution or the annihilation of Israel.


It was about Zionist propaganda.

Dissolving Israel would be my idea.

Is the discussion not about Israel's unequivocal plan of Eretz Yisrael?

Islam v. the west is a different story. Can anyone identify the west and give a reason anyone would care.

That America would become populated by Mexican Muslims is mathematically predictable.

The Battle of Khaybar 628 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Khaybar) is described as a "pre-emptive" strike about a Jewish coalition forming to exterminate Islam. Evidently there is some kind of dispute here.

The original Kingdom of Israel, on the other hand, existed to destroy anything different and still does. Says so in the Bible.


I'll explain what the west is in 3 sentences or less if you explain what Zionism is in 3 sentences or less. If you honor the deal I'll even explain to you why you should care, because I'm in such a good mood. Meanwhile don't go dissolving anyone on us Hitler! You'll get in trouble for that. It's mathematically predictable.


I'll take a crack at it Mike.

As it currently stands:

Ethno-supremicism, masquerading as ethno-religious nationalism.

That's great! Pretty close to what I've managed - finally - to concoct, but yours is very neat. I'll use this as a template and modify it only very slightly:

Racist ethno-supremicism, masquerading as virtuous ethno-religious nationalism.

And, Mike, you've pretty much nailed it in your post acknowledging thirty three's contribution here :highfive:

My take is somewhat harsher: Zionism is also, in my view, the destroyer of religions and brought about as a precursor to a Luciferian one-world religion, Satanic in its very nature.

Zionists have been described by orthodox Jewish communities as 'identity thieves', and that they most certainly are. They've caused catastrophic damage in how Judaism is perceived; it's anti-Semitic. Oh, the irony.

These types are also behind the Ukraine vanity project, which is a classic sunk-cost fallacy. Zionism and Judaism in a nutshell are mutually incompatible. I think we're getting there with a kind of definition.

[betoobig]

Fiction: Jews are humans and the rest of humans are cattle.
Fact: Jews are so programmed as to not believe their own eyes.

Fiction: Jews are God´s chosen people.
Fact: is Satan who choose them.

Fiction: Jews can override the will of Source.
Fact: arrogance is prime characteristic of Jews.

Fiction: Jews will reign with everyone as their slaves.
Fact: Jews can kiss my sovereign ass.

Fiction: Jews pray to God.
Fact: they worship the devil.

i could go on forever but it is a fact a 4 to 6 perccent will be lost forever in the awakening and it is a fact this devils go first...

Fact: so much love

[Raskolnikov]

Fiction: Jews are humans and the rest of humans are cattle.
Fact: Jews are so programmed as to not believe their own eyes.

Fiction: Jews are God´s chosen people.
Fact: is Satan who choose them.

Fiction: Jews can override the will of Source.
Fact: arrogance is prime characteristic of Jews.

Fiction: Jews will reign with everyone as their slaves.
Fact: Jews can kiss my sovereign ass.

Fiction: Jews pray to God.
Fact: they worship the devil.

i could go on forever but it is a fact a 4 to 6 perccent will be lost forever in the awakening and it is a fact this devils go first...

Fact: so much love

I agree with most of that betoobig, but shouldn't we narrow it down to Zionists? Or maybe the Ashkenazi's? I have difficulty believing that all Jews are satanic child killers because many Jews are strongly opposed to Zionism. No, I don't have a definition for Zionism, but they're getting damn close above.

[shaberon]

Did you get that prison and death line from Rambo or Commando? Of course the dissolving thing was a joke. I'll have Picard update your software.


From where? I don't know what that means.

Now if we are "debunking propaganda" then, yes, it would be appropriate to post reasons to counter it, or why you think the examination is false.

The argument I don't understand is:


Presuming I am part of "the west" and therefor protecting something important.


I've tried to figure it out in the "white people" topic, and I haven't gotten very far. I'm trying to find anything I may be missing about this.

I understand positions such as:


Islam is an existential threat.

Israel might be powerful enough to survive anyway.


But I would say those are less germane to pro-or-con issues of Zionism, the political movement from Oliver Cromwell. Those are not missing facts that can be newly revealed to sway opinion.

If I was going to "get a line" from anyone, the responses from Ewan and Jad just about speak for me. I'm generally uninvolved except Zionism is a parasite in my own system that is supposed to run clean.

[shaberon]

https://www.rt.com/news/623557-australia-expels-iranian-envoy/

August 26, 2025

Tehran has rejected Canberra’s claim it was behind arson incidents in Sydney and Melbourne targeting the Jewish community[/B]
.
Well knock me over with a feather... who woulda thought...


Most anyone who doesn't go at these things with a framed narrative like 9/11.

A form of rinse and repeat (https://www.presstv.ir/Detail/2025/08/28/753925/Dancing-to-Zionist-tune--Australia-s-diplomatic-fallout-with-Iran-on-bogus-anti-Semitic-claims):



Albanese, however, stopped short of presenting any evidence to support the accusations. He insisted that his country’s security agency believed Iran was likely behind more such planned attacks.

Foreign Ministry spokesman Esmaeil Baghaei dismissed the existence of any anti-Semitic inclinations across Iran’s time-honored cultural, historical, and religious background, saying, “This phenomenon is [rather] a Western and European one.”

“If you look at history, persecution of Jews because of their religion is a matter rooted in Europe; and it is they who must be held accountable for their historical past, which has continued to this day.”

The ministry also released a statement, highlighting the fact that anti-Semitism is primarily a Western-European phenomenon that has been manifested in various forms at different times, which “suggests that the recent misuse of this concept is aimed at suppressing protests against the Israeli occupation, apartheid, and genocide against the Palestinians.”

Foreign Minister Abbas Araghchi also condemned Australia’s decision, describing it as an act of appeasement toward the Israeli regime.

“Iran is home to the world’s oldest Jewish communities, including dozens of synagogues. Accusing Iran of attacking such sites in Australia while we do our utmost to protect them in our own country makes zero sense,” he noted.

Tim Anderson, Director of the Centre for Counter Hegemonic Studies, wrote that just the decision came after Israeli spy agency Mossad fooled the Australian prime minister that Iran was behind a string of “anti-Semitic” attacks in Australian cities.

Just days after a diplomatic row over Australia’s symbolic recognition of Palestine, Mossad, the spy branch of the genocidal Israeli regime, has fooled the Albanese government into claiming that Iran was behind a string of “antisemitic” attacks in Australian cities.

“The packaged story comes from Australian spy agency ASIO, which receives most of its intel on [West Asia] from US and Israeli sources, and in particular from the CIA and Mossad,” he said.

Reacting to Albanese’s statement, journalist Caitlin Johnstone said sarcastically that it was “nice of Iran to stage ‘anti-Semitic attacks’ in Australia which solely advance the interests of Israel and benefit Iran in no way whatsoever.”

“Very kind of Iran to help Israel like that,” she wrote in a post on X. “Quick question: what foreign intelligence agencies assisted ASIO in this assessment?”

This is not the first time that Iran has been, without a shred of evidence, accused of anti-Semitic conspiracies, but part of a decades-long US-Israeli practice that has already been seen in various countries around the world.


Consequently, a fairly long article (https://en.mehrnews.com/news/235827/Australia-and-its-record-of-gross-violations-of-Human-Rights) has been pitched to the Iranian public under this topic:



Australia’s human rights record is marred by systemic discrimination, refugee mistreatment, neglect of vulnerable groups, and rising violence against women—contradicting its global image as a rights champion.


which, in turn, resembles a great number of forum posts about the Australian government. The first article is an attempt to debunk the Zionist propaganda, whereas the second is the obvious next step, to slag Australia.

Let's see. Last time I checked, hundreds of thousands are demonstrating against Australian policy. Is is therefor supposed to be difficult to find someone to commit arson? No, I think this would be really easy without fabricating an international plot about it.

[Mike]

Did you get that prison and death line from Rambo or Commando? Of course the dissolving thing was a joke. I'll have Picard update your software.


From where? I don't know what that means.

Now if we are "debunking propaganda" then, yes, it would be appropriate to post reasons to counter it, or why you think the examination is false.

The argument I don't understand is:


Presuming I am part of "the west" and therefor protecting something important.


I've tried to figure it out in the "white people" topic, and I haven't gotten very far. I'm trying to find anything I may be missing about this.

I understand positions such as:


Islam is an existential threat.

Israel might be powerful enough to survive anyway.


But I would say those are less germane to pro-or-con issues of Zionism, the political movement from Oliver Cromwell. Those are not missing facts that can be newly revealed to sway opinion.

If I was going to "get a line" from anyone, the responses from Ewan and Jad just about speak for me. I'm generally uninvolved except Zionism is a parasite in my own system that is supposed to run clean.


I honestly don't know if you're pretending not to know what the west is and why it's important or if you really don't know. Either way I don't think I can be of any use to you at this point. This place has gotten very weird all of a sudden. I can't even get Bill to condemn Sharia Law. It's like I've hit my head and wound up in another dimension.

I was going to start my own thread on all this. I had it all written in my head, but then I remembered that I've written all of it in some form or fashion already, likely hundreds of times. In the last 5 years pretty much all I've done is talk about the importance of the west, why it should be preserved, and so on. I don't think hammering home the point one last time will matter much. And besides, it's all self-evident.

I think I'll just stick with the meme thread for now. If I start seeing signs of sanity in these threads, maybe I'll try again. Or if I see an opportunity for an 'I told you so' moment, because that would just be too hard to pass up. Meanwhile I'll continue to hold out hope that this is one big prank.

[Bill Ryan]

Just one or two comments.


Do see this thread: Social media discussion rarely changes anyone's minds.

(https://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?120133-Social-media-discussion-rarely-changes-anyone-s-minds.)
All of Planet Earth urgently needs a giant reset, but there's a lot of evidence that this will happen naturally quite soon. The 'west' has done a very great deal to destroy so much of value on the planet. And the 'west's decline and fall is likely to happen all on its own.
.
This thread's topic (what's true and false about Israel and Zionism) has been derailed. Kryztian (https://projectavalon.net/forum4/member.php?13648-Kryztian), who started the thread with a professional and well-thought-out presentation, last visited the thread 5 days ago. That should tell us all something.
.
Of course, I have issues with Sharia Law. But that doesn't justify Israeli's hateful, psychopathic, and anti-human barbarism. There are ways that life on Earth could be very different indeed for every one of us, but they seem to be almost completely out of reach. And arguments about which shallow-minded and self-interested politicians are right and which are wrong on forum threads like this don't help any of us one tiny bit.

[shaberon]

I honestly don't know if you're pretending not to know what the west is and why it's important or if you really don't know.

In the last 5 years pretty much all I've done is talk about the importance of the west, why it should be preserved, and so on


I know what it is. It's the Roman system that failed at the Olympics, wiped out the Druids, distorted Christianity, and caused all of the historical problems about Judaism.

What I'm missing is the value of that.


I'd take a three-sentence intro if it had some validity. I'm a little leery since Zionism poses itself as the vanguard. Or three famous exponents, if they are other than Oliver Cromwell, Woodrow Wilson, or Harry Truman. If you really have been posting something like this for years, it hasn't got any traction. Others who seem to share the view have been ineffective at expressing anything compelling about it. This is unlike anything else, where a few books, figureheads, and general conversation will give us a basic picture in a matter of minutes, which is what a Nation is.

If we can't sit here in the same language and rapidly identify where we are, it's not a nation, it's a statist collective of humans in a geographical area.

Comparatively, Orthodoxy and Islam are forces that I don't really agree with, but they actually can pass the bar of dialogue by asserting their principles and forming a cohesive unit. I expect westerners to close their eyes, calling them theories and opinions. But is there a reply of equal stature?

[shaberon]

This thread's topic (what's true and false about Israel and Zionism) has been derailed.


Not entirely. Surely the Australian episode is a prime example.

A country filled with hundreds of thousands of protesters "recognized" Palestine, a few days after which, violence is blamed on Iran without any investigation.

It could have been done by any Australian, or, there are plenty of other Jihadi organizations that might be glad to do it. The Iranian state just doesn't seem to have the equivalent of global Mossad plants to trigger reactions at will. Most Israeli actions are a "symbolic strike" shortly after any "challenge question".

I recall around 1910, a Maori trying to indoctrinate himself into the new English system, walking away saying "You don't worship divinity. You worship the police, courts, and magistrates".

Seems to be happening now.

There are enough non-inquiries based on having some pat answer within a matter of days, as long as it can frame the "enemy" somehow, whereas any real quest for evidence like with Nordstream just dissipates and achieves nothing.

Iran shot Trump on the campaign trail, it burned Australian Jews, it has a military stockpile in Yemen...none of these foregone conclusions are realistic.

I would say it is true that the press release on this matter carried the most base level of sensationalism, and it is a pre-prepared alibi, where the facts of the matter will go the way of most of these other case, that is, buried. Some points being raised deserve a different thread, but good timing on this one because it appears to be a model of the topic.

[Ravenlocke]

Pointless.

[betoobig]

Fiction: Jews are humans and the rest of humans are cattle.
Fact: Jews are so programmed as to not believe their own eyes.

Fiction: Jews are God´s chosen people.
Fact: is Satan who choose them.

Fiction: Jews can override the will of Source.
Fact: arrogance is prime characteristic of Jews.

Fiction: Jews will reign with everyone as their slaves.
Fact: Jews can kiss my sovereign ass.

Fiction: Jews pray to God.
Fact: they worship the devil.

i could go on forever but it is a fact a 4 to 6 perccent will be lost forever in the awakening and it is a fact this devils go first...

Fact: so much love

I agree with most of that betoobig, but shouldn't we narrow it down to Zionists? Or maybe the Ashkenazi's? I have difficulty believing that all Jews are satanic child killers because many Jews are strongly opposed to Zionism. No, I don't have a definition for Zionism, but they're getting damn close above.

I fully agree with you... Akhenazis or even Cananites or filisteos... we could also say the reptilian´s minions....
Much love

[Mike]

I honestly don't know if you're pretending not to know what the west is and why it's important or if you really don't know.

In the last 5 years pretty much all I've done is talk about the importance of the west, why it should be preserved, and so on


If you really have been posting something like this for years, it hasn't gotten any traction.

Apparently!:bigsmile: If only I had your charm, maybe I might have reached a few people.

Bill, Gemma was willing to engage in good faith with Chris. Chris quickly realized he was out over his skis and he left. The thread being "off topic" gave him the out he needed. That doesn't make him the adult in the room.

But he can have his thread. I'll officially exit. When I feel moved to do it, I'll start my own.

[shaberon]

If only I had your charm, maybe I might have reached a few people.


It doesn't really take charm, just a rally point, like MK Gandhi:


What do you think of western civilization?

Gandhi: I think it would be a good idea.

Concerning the nature of the thread, a couple of weeks ago, didn't the same person start "The end of Israel..."? It hasn't exactly been rapid-fire updated or replied.

I am a little surprised that there are blanket assumptions that the whole forum is pro-western or anti-Islam. If you have a "message" about this, it may be best to treat everyone as if they are brand new, since we don't live up to those assumptions.

I would maintain the Australian arson is too reminiscent of a "planned narrative", however this also has no traction or has no attention in other places, because it is not particularly important if an Iranian ambassador leaves there. Nothing has happened, effectively.

[Kryztian]

This thread is rapidly going off topic - this is about propaganda - about very specific claims and debunking them. The question is - what is the issue we are talking about: is it about "Israel vs. Palestine" or is it "Islam vs. something else". (I would probably be a lot more interested in the Israel topic, and debates about the general character of Islam is just not a use of time I am interested in.)

Removing Islam from any dialogue about Israel and Palestinians would immediately render the discussion meaningless. If you think this is about a two-state solution or who owned what land back in 1150 BCE or how the borders have shifted around since 1948, then you're kidding yourself. Pure and simple, the discussion is about Islam's unequivocal demand for the dissolution or the annihilation of Israel. This is exactly why chasing peace has been an impossible, never-ending quest.

Where the heck did I say anything like I was trying to remove Islam from the dialogue?????? My posts above made references to the Moslems in Palestine and it's Islamic history with and the keywords in my parenthetical sentence above you are quoting are "general character".


(I would probably be a lot more interested in [debating] the Israel topic, and [B]debates about the general character of Islam.)

The "general character" many are insisting here is a gross simplification of a religion that has 1400 years of history spanning from Morocco to Indonesia. To just define a religion or a group of merely by it's very worst acts by a minority of it's members. Would you have an accurate picture of the Christian world if you just defined it by the Spanish Inquisition, the forced conversions of indigenous peoples and the destruction of their culture, witch burnings, clergy sexual abuse, church backed slavery and apartheid, electro-shock based gay conversion therapy, etc? Focusing on any of these issues and the "general character" of any religion just doesn't give you the picture of what is really happening. In the same way, focus on a stereotypical negative "general character" of Judiasm (stoning, subjugation of women) doesn't really tell you much about the Jews of today, or about Israel and its 77-year history of racism and violence.

The only way to have an honest, fact-based, discussion here is to focus on the details of reality, which would certainly reference the very dominant presence of Islam in Palestine and which would also reference some overwhelmingly clear realities:

the mostly peaceful co-existence of various religious peoples (Islamic, Christian, Jewish, Druze, Bahai, etc.) under the Ottoman Empire (Islamic) and British Empire (Christian)


the extremely intolerant and violent and unjust Zionist government which was formed out of Zionist terrorist groups (Hagannah, Lehi, Irgun) that imported weapons and turned them on non-Jewish residents and forced a million and a half people to leave the country or die . The leveling of towns once occupied by Palestinians to prevent them from returning. The continual theft of land and destruction of Arabic communities by the Israeli courts and bureaucracy.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nakba


Pure and simple, the discussion is about Islam's unequivocal demand for the dissolution or the annihilation of Israel.

What a ridiculously grandiose and absurd statement. Islam is a religion, and there is nothing in the tenets of the religion that say anything about Israel. There are plenty of Moslems who have Israeli citizenship who have defended Zionism, so there is nothing "unequivocal" here.

As for the dissolution of Israel, most of the world's decent people are for that, regardless of religion, in the same way decent people wanted to see the end of Nazi Germany, the Khmer Rogue, the Rwanda Genocide, South African Apartheid, Suharto's Indonesia, Chile under Pinochet, etc, etc, etc. Of course Muslims and Christians in Jordan, Egypt, Syria and Lebanon have had a front seat ticket to watch the atrocities that Israel has been committing for since it's creation 1948 and even before. Just as the end of the 3rd Reich didn't mean the end of Germany, ending "Israel" does not mean that the Jews who have moved there in the last century have to leave - it just means the end of apartheid and genocide, it means the people who peacefully lived there and were forced to leave get to return, and their descendants too. And as Germany went through a period of de-Nazification after World War II, it means a peacefully society can only be created if something is done about all the Zionists who still think it is acceptable to use violence to create a purely Jewish controlled state.

[rgray222]

Where the heck did I say anything like I was trying to remove Islam from the dialogue?


debates about the general character of Islam is just not a use of time I am interested in.


The general character of Islam is at the of the very center of Oct 7th massacre of Jews and the Israeli destruction of GAZA.

My apologies if the current Israeli/Palestinain situation was not on topic.

[Kryztian]

Sorry for the delay in answering this. A lot to think about here ...



Let’s take a look at the two globalists currently threatening all nations. One is headquartered in the East, the other in the West. Both suck, and both are competing against each other, but one has cleverly hitched its wagon to the other for a free ride. That be the East.

The West’s Hydra is the Great Reset, New World Order, or whatever brand they're running with. No borders, socialist-communist equality for the classes determined and handed down by global elites, and economies controlled by super entities like the United Nations and multinational corporations.

The East's Hydra also has a name: Exporting the Iranian Revolution—and they're not shy about sharing this mandate. They've just taken a little longer than the West to develop sophistication, but they got there. Khomeini says "The exporting of this revolution means the export of revolutionary values and the revelation of the tyrants and oppressors of the world, it is our divine duty. If we do not do this, we did negligence." "We say we want to export Islam, it does not mean that we get on a plane and conquest other countries. Neither we can do nor we said such a thing. But what we can do is that, with the devices we have, with the radio and television, with the press, with the groups that go abroad, with these introduce Islam as it is, as God Almighty has said, as it is in our narrations and in the Qur'an, present Islam to the people and present it to the world, and that in itself can be more effective than thousands of cannons and tanks."


Some interesting thoughts here, and it is good you are thinking at this level, although I don't know if I see the world in the same dichotomies. I would divide the world more into the Global North (including Australia and New Zealand) and Global South (including Russia and the other BRICS countries.) We both live in "the North" and I think we would both like to see our countries do well economically. I think supporting Israel is now a loosing situation for the North, at least the USA, Great Britain, Germany, and even Australia. (It was probably always a lose/lose situation for us, expending so much political clout and money on Zionism) I think Israel is going to implode and fall apart - the train wreck of it's political apparatus is inevitably going to have to attack Iran, and when Iran counter attacks, the country will start coming apart at the seams. For the sake of all the people living there now, I hope a peace can be negotiated sooner, rather than later, but that peace is going to have to contain some major, major, major concessions for Israel, if it is to continue to exist at all. If a peace could be negotiated today, it would be much better for Israel, but the crazies in charge right now are not going to be persuaded and instead are going to incite war with Iran. This is not wishful thinking on my part, this is Realpolitik. (See this thread: The end of the state of Israel (1947 - 202?)
https://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?130162-The-end-of-the-state-of-Israel--1947-202--) My wishful thinking is that the starvation in Gaza would now end - but I really don't know when that is going to happen. The more people that die, the more disgusted the world will be with Israel, which will make it worse for them when their day of reckoning finally happens (Bill's prediction 2027, which seems about right to me too.)



Regardless of lesser conflicts of land ownership - no country is guiltless – it is wealth and strategic global politics in this hot topic that is largely ignored by those championing Hamas, aka the Muslim Brotherhood


I am sorry to disappoint you Gemma, but when Israel falls, it isn't the Hamas boogeyman that is coming to town, it is Fatah. Fatah is the only party in the West Bank and it was once the only party in Gaza, but Netanyahu sabotaged them while allowing money to flow into Hamas, because Hamas looked more like the boogeyman the Likud wanted to portray. If you are in Gaza now and join Hamas, it is because the IDF is murdering your family, and not because you are some Moslem fundamentalist. When the war ends and Gazans come out of their foxholes, they are going to say "Thank you Hamas for your war efforts" but look to Fatah for political leadership. Fatah will also be the choice for almost everyone in the West Bank, but more importantly, it is already the choice for the 147 countries that recognize Palestine as a state, and Mahmoud Abbas (now 89 years young) will be the leader.



There isn't any valid argument to claim Hamas did not deliberately and provocatively incite Israel to go to war with them on Oct 7


:facepalm:
Gemma, I am sorry, but you are completely clueless. Israeli history is one big human rights atrocity after another. In the two decades before October 7th, Israel has been carving up the West Bank into smaller and smaller pieces, building walls everywhere and have made it virtually impossible for Palestinians to travel around and visit their relatives. They have been forcing Palestinians out of their homes that have owned for centuries and turning the properties to people from Brooklyn. The have been building illegal settlements and moving crazy fundamentalist Jews on to the property and telling encouraging them to be violent toward the Palestinians. The settlers burn down buildings, cut down olive trees, show up at churches with guns, and the police never do anything about it. But if an eleven year old Palestinian throws a rock at an IDF tank, they will go to prison and not see a lawyer or their parents for a year and will probably get raped in prison. International organizations that have presented credible evidence of children being raped in prison have had their offices raided and closed and their officers imprisoned.

Before October 7th Gaza was an open air prison. Gazans have tried to develop their area and build a port and Israel has used every effort to prevent them from doing so. Israel constantly turns off electricity and restrict water usage in both Gaza and the West Bank. Israel has made every effort to keep the area in poverty and have restricted aid from coming into the region.

I could go on and on and on, but there are plenty of places you can learn about what a disgusting shïtshow Israel has created for Palestinians. Your idea that both sides are equally guilty is utterly absurd. October 7th was an inevitability that was caused by Israel.



In a critique of the mess the West’s globalists are responsible for, Michael T. Flynn LTG USA (RET) has this to say: Part of this global imbalance stems from ignoring Islam’s role and influence in shaping societies, leaving nations unprepared to address both internal and external challenges.


I think Mr. Flynn has gotten it backwards, it is UK and US government policies that have shaped nations, peoples and religions. Up until the 1940s, the Islamic world was inching towards modernity at the same rate of Latin Americans in conservative Catholic countries. Then in 1948 they witnessed the Nakba - the disgusting expulsion of 1.5 million Arabs Israel. They saw the CIA overthrow the Mosaddegh
government in Iran and see the UK turn control over most of the Arabian peninsula to the repressive Wahhabist House of Saud instead of the Hashemites. Most Arabs were right to feel that they were being abused by the West, and the less intelligent ones started to turn to more fundamentalist versions of Islam.

If you really want to understand the connection between politics and fundamentalism (mostly Islamic fundamentalism, but also Christian fundamentalist in the West) there are two fantastic Adams Curtis documentaries about the: The Power of Nightmares and Bitter Lake. Both are excellent, complex, and quite insightful. I can't say they have any simple easy conclusions but are both very thought provoking.




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Whether we like it or not, many of our countries are directly caught up in this battle of the giants and are suffering chaos and violence as weak governments buckle under their pressure. So, do we side with the East, or the West? Should we even be choosing a side now that these tyrants are riding neck-a-neck, waving socialist flags—one seriously, one faux? Or is there another option?


I think this runs even deeper than simple East/West or Global North/South dichotomies. Here is some speculation at the next level. I believe Israel is a plan long in coming, and it included not just it's creation but also it's demise. And more than just Israel is tied to it's demise. This plan is way above the pay grade of Schwab, Soros, the Bilderbergers, etc. although I imagine it informs the plans distributed to the Anglo Saxon Mission people.

Israel was never meant to be a safe homeland for Jewish people. Since the end of the Iron Curtain, it has been the major source of world conflict. It is (well, allegedly) the reason for 9/11 and all the Middle Eastern conflicts the U.S. and others have been involved with, in the lands of the most precious and necessary commodity, oil.

The fall of Israel will usher in a new age (along with A.I., possibly UFO disclosure, and other disclosure (Epstein, 9/11, JFK and other Assassinations)). All of this will very much shock human consciousness, destroy our faith in government and other institutions, and all of this will prepare us for the next phase. I have absolutely no idea what is in that next phase, but it should be reason for grave concern.

All I can say is, the more sanely, calmly and rationally humanity can get through all of this, the better the outcome is going to be.

[shaberon]

I think this runs even deeper than simple East/West or Global North/South dichotomies. Here is some speculation at the next level. I believe Israel is a plan long in coming, and it included not just it's creation but also it's demise. And more than just Israel is tied to it's demise. This plan is way above the pay grade of Schwab, Soros, the Bilderbergers, etc. although I imagine it informs the plans distributed to the Anglo Saxon Mission people.

Israel was never meant to be a safe homeland for Jewish people. Since the end of the Iron Curtain, it has been the major source of world conflict. It is (well, allegedly) the reason for 9/11 and all the Middle Eastern conflicts the U.S. and others have been involved with, in the lands of the most precious and necessary commodity, oil.

The fall of Israel will usher in a new age...


Good replies and I, at least, can see more value in someone posting here maybe only once a week, especially since the art of forum ought to elicit more thoughtful replies than the fracas of chat room.


On this last subject, it's very simple:


Jesuitry


That is how you can find Ukraine in the 1600s as an extension of the Fourth Crusade -- to crush Orthodoxy -- plus the relatively new phenomenon of millions of displaced Jews who had been ousted from west Europe and Italy.

Rather than the "take over the world" mentality of the Conquistadors, this is more of a strategical shift to be the last man standing after a soul-wrenching era of violence.

A telltale sign is that there are Jesuits remaining in the murky One World Currency plan, whereas BRICS alternatives preserve sovereign currency. Note the similarity to the 1600s Peace of Westphalia, which was sort of a mental model about preserving nationality in the face of mono-polarity, and which also did not last long. Thus, the main tool of resistance is nationalism, not the fake kind like we have in America because this isn't a nation -- but the natural indigenous kind you might find in tiny European pockets such as Wales.

This one is easy, because nobody is going to turn to a Big Rome for salvation after whatever happens, but chances are they will still have their "hands on the equipment".


We won't get much use out of "general character" or three-sentence summaries. They are misleading and inaccurate for a complex, massive web of conflicts and oppression. Many of those topics would be a different thread subject. I have never, for instance, seen any attention spent on the actual historical and social situation of Jews in various regimes. It's really intricate. I am sure that in many of those situations, I would sympathize with the Jewish community versus their oppressors. But not all. And so it is not useful to go on about "the Jews" or "general character of Judaism" because it's not all the same.

Zionism is all the same, just a matter of degree. I did not get the news in 2004 that the United States had purged Israeli terrorists off the list; I got it this year. This legally empowered extremists to take office and now here we are. Greater Israel has been a backburner military doctrine for quite some time, and now it is running openly.

[Kryztian]

This thread's topic (what's true and false about Israel and Zionism) has been derailed. Kryztian (https://projectavalon.net/forum4/member.php?13648-Kryztian), who started the thread with a professional and well-thought-out presentation, last visited the thread 5 days ago. That should tell us all something.


Bill, you are not the first one to ask why I disappeared from the thread, but the real reason was that some of the points need a lengthy answer and I did not have the time to address them properly.

And for the record, I really did enjoy reading Gemma's post (#11 on this thread) and writing a rebuttal. I don't know if she and I are going to agree on anything here, but we are both got each other to think and are a bit smarter for what we wrote here.

And yet, the thread has gone way off topic. I hope this can be divided into two threads.

Chris

[Gemma13]

[

Bill, you are not the first one to ask why I disappeared from the thread, but the real reason was that some of the points need a lengthy answer and I did not have the time to address them properly.

And for the record, I really did enjoy reading Gemma's post (#11 on this thread) and writing a rebuttal. I don't know if she and I are going to agree on anything here, but we are both got each other to think and are a bit smarter for what we wrote here.

And yet, the thread has gone way off topic. I hope this can be divided into two threads.

Chris

👍

Cue in Arnie... "I'll be back..."
Time constraints n all.

[Rizotto]

In a way, this thread has not been derailed. It was diverted exactly to where the Zionist propagandists want it to go.
In fact, it’s become illustrative of how Zionist propaganda works.

It should be obvious by now that Zionist propaganda revolves around portraying Muslims (especially Arab & Iranian Muslims) as dangerous fanatics whose main purpose in life is to destroy Israel & Jews, just because their religious beliefs tells them to.

For example, in post # 69 above by Rgray, the claim is made that:
“The general character of Islam is at the … very center of Oct 7th massacre of Jews and the Israeli destruction of GAZA.”

In fact, Hamas’ two requests for their October 7 operation had nothing to do with ‘Islam’. Hamas’ requests were: 1) that Israel releases Palestinian hostages held in Israeli prisons, many of them for years on end, and 2) that Israel ceases its illegal occupation and gets out of Palestinian lands.

For decades now, Israel has used the excuse of the ‘dangerous & violent Muslims’ as cover for its “Greater Israel” land grab agenda and control of the middle east. Israel endlessly portrays Muslims as terrorists, to justify systematically terrorizing & killing Muslims. This Israeli propaganda has been especially aimed at convincing the west, and Israel has used the October 7 event as a catalyst to whip up fear and revulsion of Muslims among westerners.

I can tell you that this vilification of Muslims is rife on many social media groups here in Canada. And these same groups also censor all posts on Israel’s horrific genocide of Palestinians.

Israel has whole teams of specialized trolls infiltrating social media and various forums around the world (maybe the PA forum too?...). They typically derail conversations critical of Israel/Zionism with insults, groundless accusations and irrelevant trash. The internet calls them “the Hasbara trolls”:
https://aninjusticemag.com/israels-on-line-army-9031bdbc6aff
“Israel’s On-line Army”

But here what’s really ironic. Israel itself has orchestrated several false flags, specifically to cast the perpetrators as Muslims. I’m listing below only those that I know of. There probably are many more.
- 1967 Unmarked Israeli fighter jets attack the USS Liberty in the Mediterranean, killing and injuring dozens of USA servicemen. They tried to blame Egypt for the attack, so that USA would start a war against Egypt.
- 1968 Assassination of Robert Kennedy. Blamed on “a Palestinian motivated by the hatred of Israel”. However, that Palestinian (Sirhan Sirhan) never was able to remember what happened during that event, and exhibited symptoms of MKULTRA conditioning. Evidence pointed to more than one shooter.
- See “Israel & The Assassinations of the Kennedy Brothers: A Documentary By Laurent Guyénot”
- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a37FM542MXE
- The 9/11 attack was almost immediately blamed on Muslims by government & media. However, many subsequent citizens’ investigations disproved the official story, and pointed to Israel as the main orchestrator of the attack. (For example, “Solving 9/11” by Christopher Bollyn)
- There are official reports of numerous Israeli spies operating in the US just prior to the 9/11 attacks.
- The ‘dancing Israelis’ who were observed celebrating the 9/11 attack on the WTC: during their subsequent arrest by USA authorities, one of these Israelis (who later turned out to be Mossad agents) famously exclaimed: “We are Israeli; we are not your problem. Your problems are our problems, The Palestinians are the problem.”
- https://thewashingtonstandard.com/the-dancing-israelis-the-forgotten-documented-element-of-9-11/
- The use, if not the creation itself, of ISIS for Israel’s agenda of weakening & controlling Syria. It’s well documented by now that Israel materially supported ISIS. And remember, ISIS never attacked Israel, only Syrians, Iraqis and Iranians.
- The October 7 attack by Hamas was deliberately allowed to happen by Israeli command. During the attack the IDF was ordered to stand down for hours on end, and many Israeli civilians were in fact killed by the IDF. Most horrific accusations of rapes & baby killing were made against Hamas, which turned out to be baseless. All of which to inflate sentiments against Palestinians, which Israel used to justify its long-planned takeover of Gaza and the West Bank.
- The June 13, 2025 Israel surprise attack against Iran, on the false pretext that Iran has nuclear weapons. Meanwhile, Israel itself has had rogue nukes for decades.

And then there’s the Jeffrey Epstein child trafficking operation, which was most certainly an Israeli blackmail operation to control powerful men into doing Israel’s bidding. Most likely the main reason those files are still covered up. My hunch is that the Epstein operation has a lot to do with Israel getting away with 9/11 and other false flags.

[Bill Ryan]

...And yet, the thread has gone way off topic. I hope this can be divided into two threads.

ChrisNoted and discussed by the mods, and we'll do it. :thumbsup: (Give us a day or two to try to get it right! :))

[norman]

FICTION: The Jewish people are the Hebrews (of the Bible)
FACT: They are a completely different people who have quite recently shoe-horned themselves into the story and the role (and Satanic).

I wasn't expecting much from this podcast but it well over delivered. It leaves me still confused about who the Jews really are but very clear about who they are not. It also leaves me confused about who set up Mohammed to create Islam although it still leaves my previous understanding of why it was created intact.

UK Column, Jerm - William Finck - The biblical history of the Jews (https://podbay.fm/p/uk-column-podcasts/e/1757012400?t=37)
1 hour 16 minutes - Sep 4, 2025

Show notes
Jerm and William Finck examine the history of Hebrews and Judaism, the role of Edomites, Khazars, and Ashkenazis, and the claims of modern Judaism to the promises made to Abraham.

@ukcolumn:9/William-Finck-The-biblical-history-of-the-Jews:5


Bonus Factoid: Jesus wasn't a Jew.

[Irminsül]

I agree with everything you stated about how Israel has for years been committing abuses, human rights violations, and abominable acts against the Palestinian people. But beyond the fact that a group of oppressed and systematically murdered people has every right to defend itself (as is supposed to be what happened on October 7, 2023); even that situation, many believe, was a false flag operation by Israel to give them the excuse to carry out the genocide they are perpetrating to this day. I am not saying this is an absolute truth, since in these cases it is often difficult to know the reality, but it would not surprise me at all if Israeli intelligence had planned that entire attack. We know that this kind of act has happened before. And numerous geopolitical analysts have pointed out that what happened on October 7 is yet another case of this.

[grapevine]

FICTION: The Jewish people are the Hebrews (of the Bible)
Bonus Factoid: Jesus wasn't a Jew.

I think Jesus was a Jew and all his followers were Jews as well. Early Christianity started within Judasim after all, and only later was considered to be separate. But you could make an argument that "considered" or "broad agreement" is a form of democracy and that not everybody will agree, except perhaps for the indisputable fact that we worship the same God.

[norman]

FICTION: The Jewish people are the Hebrews (of the Bible)
Bonus Factoid: Jesus wasn't a Jew.

I think Jesus was a Jew and all his followers were Jews as well. Early Christianity started within Judasim after all, and only later was considered to be separate. But you could make an argument that "considered" or "broad agreement" is a form of democracy and that not everybody will agree, except perhaps for the indisputable fact that we worship the same God.

Did you listen to anything William Fink said before you wrote that?

[grapevine]

No. That statement put me off listening.

[shaberon]

But beyond the fact that a group of oppressed and systematically murdered people has every right to defend itself (as is supposed to be what happened on October 7, 2023); even that situation, many believe, was a false flag operation by Israel to give them the excuse to carry out the genocide they are perpetrating to this day. I am not saying this is an absolute truth, since in these cases it is often difficult to know the reality, but it would not surprise me at all if Israeli intelligence had planned that entire attack.



I would suggest leaning towards the view allowed to happen.

Effectively a stand-down order; no response.

There are a whole heap of situations that are not really a false flag, which is a disguised attack.



1.3 million man French army just "stopped" against the Nazis

Bashar Assad's Syrian army just "stopped" against HTS

Most heavily protected airspace in the world just "stopped" on 9/11


In some cases, like the recent attacks on the White House, we learn that those forwarding intelligence ceased to do so, because they thought they might be demoted or fired.

Israel had plenty of opportunity to get prior warning and "respond", which did not happen, which does not mean "they did it".

Hamas gave the reason for the timing as the normalization of Israel with Saudi Arabia. I don't think this importance can be over-estimated. That would have handed them the Middle East on a silver platter. At least now, it's not so easy.

[Rizotto]

The zionist 'hasbara trolls' are especially busy on Canadian social media these past few days. So many posts demonizing muslims in general, although Canada does not have a 'muslim problem'. It's no coincidence that these posts are showing up as we near the 9/11 anniversary.

Also many posts demonizing Iran, although we don't have an 'Iran problem' in Canada. But Israel sure wants to annihilate Iran.

[161803398]

Perhaps people should be reading the Universal Declaration of Human Rights and the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide. Then they can go to the ICJ website and review the decisions so far.

[Kryztian]

Rich Forer talks about what is like to grow up in a typical American Jewish family, how he was exposed to Zionist propaganda, and how he learned to see the world outside of that box.
(22 minutes)

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[Kryztian]

Fiction: Israel has been the victim of unprovoked Islamic terrorism.

Fact: Terrorism in the Middle East begins with three Zionist terrorist groups that performed countless acts of racially motivated despicable violence: Hagan-nah, Irgun and Lehi.[/I]

OCGtHMxNrXY

[sdv]

The Devil Next Door is an interesting documentary series about a Ukrainian in Cleveland being accused of being 'Ivan the Terrible' ... a sadistic Nazi collaborator working in the death camps in Ukraine.

In this serues, one can clearly see some of the roots of the Israeli propaganda being used today. The basic message is 'we are the victims of the worst crime ever and so you must believe everything we say, even if contradicted by facts, and we must have revenge'. There is a lot more that is fascinating about the documentary ... like how the USA knowingly accepted and shielded Nazis after the war, and how the Jewish survivors of the genocide were viewed in Israel with suspicion by the Zionist settlers.

What I see in general in the series is crowd hysteria (a well-known phenomena), which is understandable considering the extreme trauma. But the same hysteria and reaction and baying for extreme revenge followed the October 2023 attack, and the same unconditional support no matter what they say or do was given to Israel, especially from the West.

I don't want to try and derail the thread, but it just struck me that underlying the warped philosophy of Zionism is a very dangerous unconditional support. This hysteria that gripped the world (understandable as the Holocaust was evil run rampant) was fuel for the Zionist movement and lets Israel get away with genocide today. What everyone has forgotten was that nearly half of the people killed in the death camps were not Jews. The gypsy population of Europe was almost completely, of not completely, wiped out as a group.

This thread is important, but I think Israelis and their supporters are too far gone to be able to undo the brainwashing. Am I being too pessimistic?

[ExomatrixTV]

Whitney Webb ~ They already had a plan for Gaza long before Oct 7th (https://rumble.com/v6ymx6u-whitney-webb-they-already-had-a-plan-for-gaza-long-before-oct-7th.html)

Friendly reminder: Most of the Oct 7th Bodycam vids were pre-recorded and FRAUDS!!! "The Oct 7th Story" has enough holes in it to sink the titanic........ Watch 57min vid below which exposes the Oct 7th Bodycams FRAUD (https://rumble.com/v6y6cji-57min-vid-proof-the-oct-7th-bodycams-with-clouds-were-pre-recorded-and-frau.html) reminder: Most of the Oct 7th Bodycam vids were pre-recorded and FRAUDS!!! "The Oct 7th Story" has enough holes in it to sink the titanic........ Watch 57 min Video (https://rumble.com/v6y6cji-57min-vid-proof-the-oct-7th-bodycams-with-clouds-were-pre-recorded-and-frau.html) which exposes the Oct 7th Bodycams FRAUD.

[Rizotto]

...

I don't want to try and derail the thread, but it just struck me that underlying the warped philosophy of Zionism is a very dangerous unconditional support. This hysteria that gripped the world (understandable as the Holocaust was evil run rampant) was fuel for the Zionist movement and lets Israel get away with genocide today. What everyone has forgotten was that nearly half of the people killed in the death camps were not Jews. The gypsy population of Europe was almost completely, of not completely, wiped out as a group.

This thread is important, but I think Israelis and their supporters are too far gone to be able to undo the brainwashing. Am I being too pessimistic?

Good points. Personally, I didn't know until 20 years ago that so many other ethnic groups were wiped out by the nazis during WW2. All I ever heard in my young adult life was that the nazis killed 6 millions jews in concentration camps. Obviously there's been a major and unrelenting campaign to portray jews as the main, if not the only, victims of nazis.

However the tide is turning. Israel's brutal genocide of Palestinians has ironically been a wake up call to the rest of the world that something else is going on. Now most of the world knows that the real agenda is 'greater Israel'. But not only that. As Israel has completed its infiltration and control of their USA cash cow, it's also becoming clearer that the 'greater Israel' agenda is also extending into the goal of global domination. Their Palentir and AI total surveillance apparatus will most likely be operating world-wide, not only within the USA. Of course, there's the concern of the huge USA debt incurred by fighting endless wars for the benefit of Israel's expansion, but it appears that they plan to take care of that by means of invading or annexing resource-rich countries, like Canada, Greenland, Venezuela, Gaza, etc.

Trump is their man to pursue these goals with bluster and illogical disregard of international law. And he has at his disposal the still mighty USA military. Trump made it clear in his inauguration speech that he won't tolerate the dropping of the US dollar as world currency. And that USA is to remain the one and only hegemon. Indeed, Trump is acting like he's world emperor. Except that he gets very nervous about the proposed Epstein file disclosure...

On the surface, it appears that the USA-Israel axis is getting its way. But there are major shifts happening in the rest of the world. The BRICS and the SCO are rising, but also full awareness is gaining momentum for the majority of people that USA-Israel are lawless bullies. Most people by now are keenly aware of Israel's false flags and their multitude of lies and crimes.

As for Israelis, we hear about polls stating that 80% of them are in full on agreement with wiping out Palestinians. Did the Talmud and the Torah create this mindset, along with the decades of support from the USA, and the total impunity for all the false flags they committed? Books will be written in the next decades to analyse this.

But there's also the unconditional support from the zionist christians in the USA (also in Canada). How could a significant number of christians (some say up to 50 millions in the USA) believe that they must NEVER criticize Israel, in order to win that express ticket to heaven (aka 'the rapture'). Many in the USA congress profess such beliefs. I hear from my local zionist that all of Netanyahu's statements are totally above question. It's got all the hallmarks of a psyop on american christians. When did this get staged?

Watch the following 2022 sermon by John Hagee, which begins with Hagee stating that "I was in Israel visiting the heads of state and experiencing one of the most gratifying weeks of my life." At 9:15 Hagee claims "The day America stops defending Israel will be the day god stops defending the United States of America." (Of course, there's nothing like this in the bible.) At 19:03, Hagee claims that he started the zionist christian movement in 1981 by creating “Christians United for Israel”, which gained huge momentum.
Pastor John Hagee - "Jerusalem and WWIII", https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iCsoPkGd61I

The other question is why is the USA military still carrying out orders that they know are breaching international law. For example, their June 2025 unprovoked attack on Iran's nuclear facilities. Surely, their military training involves the instruction that they have a duty to NOT carry out unlawful orders?

At any rate, the zionist propaganda has stopped working for the majority of the people around the word, including a majority of USA population according to polls. By now, most people know that the USA-Israel axis is hell-bent on destructive and illegal operations to try and maintain global control, and most are waiting it out, hoping that USA-Israel wear themselves out before they launch nuclear WW3.

There has to be a more proactive approach to stop the Israel genocide of Palestinians.

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Rabbi Shapiro (I assume you have heard of him)
https://www.facebook.com/reel/585486811273081

[shaberon]

All I ever heard in my young adult life was that the nazis killed 6 millions jews in concentration camps.


Right. We have a link for this somewhere, but again this is a case where there was a letter to a newspaper in the 1920s that claimed six million Jews had just been slaughtered.

I have seen exercises, where it was attempted to compute where you could find that many Jews in all of Europe.

This is like a first or root-level psychological suggestion.

There are a ton of issues in German unification, although it remains true that the British intent to never let it prosper by keeping it cut from Russia has been its fate since 1871.

I would suggest the German Federation is not a done deal, if you look towards the end of the Constitution of Germany, it says you are a subject of the European Central Bank. Might want to re-think this.

Things that go on in Ukraine enforce the phrase called "price stability".