The TWO, non negotiable positions

[thepainterdoug]

FOR TRUMP? /  ANTI TRUMP ?
 
It's all about Trump.  It's amazing to me it's that cut and dry.  For me, the interpretation is for globalization or against it, however most average people don't understand that.
The continuation of American sovereignty ,the rule of law, and the principles this country were founded on, or against them.

The globalists will stop at nothing to end America. And this seems to excuse the left needing any policies of their own. Just be against Trump, is their policy.
K Harris speaks volumes and I have no idea what her position is? and they were the ones to let 20 million illegals in.

 I am amazed by the rants of left politicians( anti Trump) screaming and railing on the news media saying, Ice is just rounding up immigrants and throwing them in vehicles not to be seen again. This is not America!

UMM What is the word that is left out?  What is the word not ever mentioned ?  And once that word is added, it all kinda makes sense ?

Is Ice or the police rounding up licensed Auto drivers? NO . If caught driving illegally, you are arrested

Are the Nat Guard rounding up law abiding people eating dinner enjoying conversation at an outdoor restaurant for no reason?  Are you being stopped from talking or going your way?

For Me, If only one person in a political conversation would concede to the reality of this keyword being omitted, we could begin a conversation.  We could start , agreement or not.

 Then we could banter, possibly weigh options, find a need to protest and lobby to change laws in this country.  
But until this keyword is entered and admitted to, It cannot begin. 

My former girlfriend,( married to an academic) and living in Europe, absolutely hates Trump and his border policy.  Yet she told me they may move to Canada.  She told me Canada has an offer to people who can work, have skills and a few other criteria, that they can come and apply for citizenship. !! REALLY ?

omg omg, what is the disconnect here bringing this quote from the bible to my mind.
"Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye, but do not notice the plank in your own eye?"

This is why today, for me, there is no discussing politics and no ground can be made until terminology, logic and common sense return .

I blame the bought and paid for brainwashing, dishonest , corrupt , agenda driven  MS MEDIA  and the traitorous benefactors who have admitted they will bring America
down.
Something has to give.
cheers all

[seekingtruth]

It's even worse in the UK. If I say anything to my friends about the state of our country, and the effects of mass immigration, I am called a right wing extremist and racist.

If I lament the erosion of our culture and mention the prior greatness of our country, I am a "flag-shagger." Should someone complain about my words, I will be arrested.

People have been gaslit so hard, they are more concerned with being called racist than protecting our women and children.

And of course, they believe that being welcoming to the immigrants is compassionate and needs to be done.

I would say I can have an informed discussion with maybe 10-20%, the rest are just completely brainwashed by the (very effective) social engineering.

It's absolutely unreal how effective mockingbird and co have become. Nightmare.

What's really sad is how we have moved from the days our parents used to say "don't believe everything you hear on the news" to "you filthy conspiracy theorist" if you question anything, even something minor.

People these days cannot comprehend the scale of the conspiracy, even when you lay it out. It's much easier for them to simply insult me. They are happy to moan about things, but go crazy if you should dare suggest it is because of globalist motives.

What was that line in the matrix, something about people being so used to things the way they are, they will fight tooth and nail to keep them the same? Insanity, yet here we are.

[JackMcThorn]

The globalists will stop at nothing to end America... Something has to give...

America did it to itself by immersing itself into the global situation and trying to control it. With this insight, any vacuum that develops will enhance the multi-polar situation.

Something is going to give. Only it will probably not be what is best for a controlling america. An american vision born of poor leadership and greed. Not from the average citizen.

A conversation that can erupt into the divisiveness of politics and religion [and I add territory or possessions to this list] is best to be avoided with anyone close. This has always been true, not just recently. Like polarized topics that instigate emotion have been heated for centuries.

I will say it again that I think it is a choice Not to choose a side every time there is some sort of dilemma in decision-making. I have been told this is impartial and maybe so. But it certainly is more peaceful.

[thepainterdoug]

Seeking Truth, 100 % sorry to hear that reality, its so maddening.

Jack Mc, Yes America did it to itself, by way of bought and compliant Administrations signing on to the globalists. This is why" freedom is so difficult to earn and even more to keep.

Trump for all his shortfalls, is strong willed decisive , pro active for America

The other choice ?? Harris, can anyone imagine? This is the stupidest most empty vessel in the pond



iIt was Krushev in the 60ies I believe that said, "we will bury you."

[rgray222]

It's even worse in the UK. If I say anything to my friends about the state of our country and the effects of mass immigration, I am called a right-wing extremist and racist.

If I lament the erosion of our culture and mention the prior greatness of our country, I am a "flag-shagger." Should someone complain about my words, I will be arrested.

People have been gaslit so hard that they are more concerned with being called racist than protecting our women and children.

And of course, they believe that being welcoming to the immigrants is compassionate and needs to be done.

I would say I can have an informed discussion with maybe 10-20%, the rest are just completely brainwashed by the (very effective) social engineering.

It's absolutely unreal how effective Mockingbird and co have become. Nightmare.

What's really sad is how we have moved from the days our parents used to say, "don't believe everything you hear on the news", to "you filthy conspiracy theorist" if you question anything, even something minor.

People these days cannot comprehend the scale of the conspiracy, even when it is laid out. It's much easier for them to insult me simply. They are happy to moan about things, but go crazy if you dare suggest it is because of globalist motives.

What was that line in the Matrix, something about people being so used to things the way they are, they will fight tooth and nail to keep them the same? Insanity, yet here we are.

Don't mean to get off track, but I am curious, would Nigel Farage be a person who could start to turn back some of the craziness and begin to right the ship? I have seen him interviewed, but don't really know much about him.

When I looked at recent polling data for the UK, this was the response I got.
A recent YouGov MRP poll conducted in September 2025 suggests that Nigel Farage could become Prime Minister if a general election were held immediately, with Reform UK projected to win 311 seats—just 15 short of an overall majority.
The poll, based on a survey of 13,000 people, indicates that Reform UK would be the largest party in a hung parliament, making Farage the most likely candidate to form a government.
Labour would be reduced to 144 seats and the Conservatives to 45, pushing Reform from a minor party to a dominant political force in just over a year.
While this projection shows Farage on track to enter Downing Street, it remains a hypothetical scenario based on current polling trends and not an actual election result.

[seekingtruth]

Don't mean to get off track, but I am curious, would Nigel Farage be a person who could start to turn back some of the craziness and begin to right the ship?


I'm far from the authority on him, I've been so disgusted by our politicians for so long I simply regard them all with extreme disdain. Farage imho is all bark and no bite. He talks a good game on occasion, but is nowhere to be seen when decisive action needs to be taken. I can't think of one action he's spearheaded that has been good for our country. I could be doing him a disservice, he cofounded Brexit/Reform for example, but he is nowhere near enough for what we need.

One thing I hate to see for example is when he comes out with a big speech about how Kier Starmer needs to go, and then you see them laughing and joking together a few minutes later.

He's the sort of guy who will talk about what is needed, but as soon as he gets a visit to give him "the talk" he will do whatever he is told. Not strong enough for this fight in other words.

I live in hope that I am wrong, but I am not holding my breath..

[Baby Steps]

Just had a catch up with a great old friend . We are divergent on a number of key issues and have slightly angry debates about them .
We are talking about two intelligent open minded educated people who are very fact and reality driven .

Something is happening where on these issues we both feel that the other is hardening their positions - like becoming radicalised or fascist about them . That’s how I feel and it’s probably mutual .

Conflicting lived truths can exist but healthy people should be able to bridge that divide . I think it’s the echo chambers that we mutually accuse each other of occupying . It’s reached the point where there is no possibility of agreement .

Friends don’t have to agree but the hardening of positions is interesting to note

[thepainterdoug]

Baby Steps, yes one would think sane fair minded healthy people would be able to sort this stuff out.

Im not even asking for agreement. Im just asking if we can we agree on the term " illegal." Can we just agree that there are people in this country "illegally"? THATS IT ! Then the rest of the who's whys and so on can be debated.

But when people cannot even make that simple agreement, then it's all pointless.

[shaberon]

It would seem that neither implied position is real or worth any attempt to negotiate with.

Suggest a new framework that is neither. You'll sooner rope the wind than acquire me in this two-sided problem of its own making.

[Myristyl]

What's really sad is how we have moved from the days our parents used to say "don't believe everything you hear on the news" to "you filthy conspiracy theorist" if you question anything, even something minor.


I have discussed that exact thing with a couple of friends. Glad it's not just me that thought that.

[rgray222]

Baby Steps, yes one would think sane fair minded healthy people would be able to sort this stuff out.

Im not even asking for agreement. Im just asking if we can we agree on the term " illegal." Can we just agree that there are people in this country "illegally"? THATS IT ! Then the rest of the who's whys and so on can be debated.

But when people cannot even make that simple agreement, then it's all pointless.

Doug, it has become increasingly difficult to engage in meaningful conversations with people who deliberately change the language to avoid discussion. For instance, they have changed the correct and more accurate "illegal" to "undocumented." I’ve also found that some individuals outright deny that the left condones medical intervention (hormonal or surgical) for gender transition purposes. These people are so emotionally invested in their own beliefs that it makes rational conversations nearly impossible. While I’m not a psychologist, I can’t help but think that outright denial probably indicates some form of mental health issue (no humor intended).

[Rizotto]

It would seem that neither implied position is real or worth any attempt to negotiate with.

Suggest a new framework that is neither. You'll sooner rope the wind than acquire me in this two-sided problem of its own making.

Completely agree with Shaberon on this. Why limit our world view to these particular 2 parties, when both of them are in fact tools of the globalist cabal to keep us misinformed and confused. What's with the "non-negotiable" in the title of this thread??? Our survival depends on getting out of the narrow mindset imposed on us of 'left' vs 'right'.
In reality it's more like 'the oligarchs' vs 'the people'.

Remember, the amount of surveillance and censorship by both branches of the uniparty:

Sept 25, 2025
X Legitimate Targets
"BREAKING: FBI Director Kash Patel agrees to team up with Democrat Rep. Jared Moskowitz to push CENSORSHIP of Americans on social media who share “conspiracy theories about ISRAEL."
https://x.com/theashrb/status/1971245648302493886

[Bill Ryan]

Several other Avalon threads that might be relevant, helpful and/or interesting: :flower:


Friends Lost? Will it Ever be Mended? (https://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?122408-Friends-Lost-Will-it-Ever-be-Mended)
Reconnecting with alienated friends and family (https://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?48412-Reconnecting-with-alienated-friends-and-family)
Why you can't convince your friends of the truth - and what to do about it (https://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?115352-Why-you-can-t-convince-your-friends-of-the-truth-and-what-to-do-about-it)

...and (in my opinion), this thread may be specially significant, still WAY under-recognized for the truth of its title:

The "Right-Left" dichotomy: false, simplistic, & manipulative. (https://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?111305-The-Right-Left-dichotomy-false-simplistic-manipulative.)