Propaganda Awareness: Are You a Victim or a Contributor?

[rgray222]

I’m starting this thread because I genuinely want to understand how people determine whether the information they consume and share is propaganda. We might believe that we are immune to propaganda on Avalon, but we may be unknowingly sharing or being influenced by it. Often, when we have a very emotional response to information we are watching or reading, we are eager to share it without much or any basic fact-checking. The same can be said about topics on which our beliefs are firmly entrenched. Of course, we want to be part of the solution and not the problem, but is that always the case?

You can find propaganda on every imaginable topic, from politics to profits and from war to sports, so how do we identify it? A few other questions to think about:
Is propaganda fake news? Is fake news propaganda?
Is propaganda clickbait? is clickbait propaganda?
Is propaganda ever a good thing for society?

I cobbled this list together from several different sites on how to recognize propaganda.

Check for Emotional Manipulation: Scrutinize info that drives emotion over reason. Be wary of messages that evoke strong emotions, like:

anger
fear
sympathy

Consider What’s Missing: Propaganda loves to tell half the story. Critical thinking will often uncover hidden agendas. Ask yourself:

What facts aren’t being mentioned?
Whose voices are missing from this conversation?
Is there more to the story than what’s being presented?

Spot Logical Fallacies: Look for flawed reasoning or misleading arguments within the message. Some common fallacies. When you recognize these tricks, the magic starts to crumble.

Strawman Arguments: Misrepresenting the opposing side to make it easier to attack.
Bandwagon Appeal: “Everyone is doing it, so you should too!”
False Dilemmas: Presenting only two options when more exist.

Recognize Common Techniques: Familiarize yourself with propaganda techniques such as:

Name-calling
Glittering generalities
Testimonials

Beware of Repetition, Repetition, Repetition: Repeated messages can create a false sense of truth. Repetition is powerful, but it’s not proof.
Follow the Money: Investigate who benefits from the message and what their motives might be. If there is an agenda to push, be wary. Look for the driving force behind the message; tracing the source can reveal a lot.
Pause and Question: Take a moment to think critically about the message and its intent.


Our minds are wonderful, unique creations that are constantly under assault, how do we protect ourselves from so much propaganda?

T8L8tGErQPs

[Bill Ryan]

Ten minutes ago, I finished watching The Social Dilemma for the first time. I immediately thought I should post something about it. Then I looked and saw you'd just started this thread. :)

Here it is. It's devastating critique of the manipulative effects of social media.

https://rumble.com/v6s6jqp-the-social-dilemma.html
v6pznhv

[sdv]

Propaganda: dissemination of information—facts, arguments, rumours, half-truths, or lies—to influence public opinion.

https://www.britannica.com/topic/propaganda

Britannica has a comprehensive overview of all aspects of propaganda, but the key distinguishing factor is that it is intended to 'influence public opinion'. All politics and advertising is propaganda.

All the advertising I am exposed to is manipulative. There is one exception. One of the large local supermarkets has a loyalty card that customers can get for free, and a pensioners' card. Wednesdays is market day, when pensioners get a substantial discount and a range of products are on sale for a special price. Every Tuesday I get a message simply listing the products and prices being offered on special. Potatoes and oranges for sale at very low prices? I can plan the week's meals around those two products. It is advertising ... to persuade me to shop there and not elsewhere, but is it dishonest or harmful?

I watch the Electronic Intifada channel. The purpose of the channel is supporting Palestinians, but it does not spread lies, and there are two things it has done throughout the war in Gaza that is rare elsewhere (Dropsite News is one of the rarities): Jon Elmer does comprehensive coverage of Palestinian military operations, and EI has always spoken to people inside Gaza (often the picture and sound is bad). Is it propaganda? Yes, but it sticks to facts. The Israelis, on the other hand, rely heavily on half-truths and lies for their propaganda. The Israelis do themselves no favours in their approach as tuned in people will switch them off because of the lies and sensational fake narratives. When EI talk about babies being targeted by snipers and bombs, they talk to people inside hospitals and we actually see the babies and children with their horrific injuries. We see the burnt out ambulances, the videos of unarmed men being gunned down, and even IDF soldiers who had escaped from their captors being shot and killed by the IDF even when they had stripped off their outerwear, were waving white flags, and were speaking Hebrew. Alongside the burnt out ambulances, we see Palestinian fighters on an operation, watching ambulances (vehicle or helicopter) pick up wounded IDF soldiers and never attacking them. And, yes, neither the EI nor the Palestinians themselves try and hide the truth when it is ugly ... One fighter found his family home destroyed and all of his extended family killed when he left the tunnels to visit with his family. He shot and killed a hostage point blank when he returned to the tunnels.

But, showing the truth is also propaganda because although EI (and others) are doing a public service by making vital information public, they clearly support the Palestinians and are trying to influence public opinion.

Is propaganda equally harmful if it is factual and fully truthful? Does free speech allow propaganda to flourish? Is Chase Hughes right when he says that language itself is a form of manipulation and control, and thus is all communication propaganda and thus bad? Musk claims he is developing a maximum 'truth-seeking AI' (he has since changed the phrase), but does it clearly distinguish between fact and opinion? Should AI be allowed to form an opinion and share it? Of course it is useful for AI to give detailed information on all opinions on a subject, but should it form opinions of its own?

On an optimistic note, fact checking can be used as a counterweight against the negative effects of propaganda. If anyone is not aware of what propaganda is and how it is used, this thread is extremely useful.

[ExomatrixTV]

@rgray222 (https://projectavalon.net/forum4/member.php?1043-rgray222) excellent topic, solid contributions here on this current new thread! :thumbsup:

I am also known to use humor/"nwosatire" on YouTube (banned) even sarcasm ... as being super serious 24/7 can easily change in to becoming eternal frustrated WHICH I AM NOT ... am hyper focused! ... BUT to release some tension, it is also good to have a laugh ... I made "poll" where forum members can choose from but some of them are put in to be hilarious on purpose ;)

Re: Whitewashed Lies (https://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?122013-Whitewashed-Lieshttps://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?122013-Whitewashed-Lies)

What do you do if you have friends and/or family who are spreading whitewashed lies or a victim of obvious propaganda? (mass tunnel vision conditioning, mass brainwashing).

A. ignore them.
B. try to educate them.
C. no idea.
D. getting frustrated (especially when the imposing stuff is involved).
E. laugh about it.
F. seeking ways to give them quality questions without pushing them.
G. let it be.
H. challenge them to debate the issue.
I. giving them a hug.
J. sharing this Project Avalon Forum Thread and ask what they think of it.
K. condemn them.
L. forgive them.
M. ask them to seek professional help who are not part of the corrupt system, which seems an impossible task nowadays.
N. share a very special documentary or lecture that hopefully wakes them up.
O. become angry and upset (because you care!).
P. do not care whatsoever.
Q. feeling helpless, powerless and incompetent.
R. not my problem.
S. seeking more like-minded people and making new friends.
T. sleep over it ... and wait what comes to mind with a fresh attitude, go with the internal flow.
U. love them anyway.
V. write an article about it.
W. trying to use NLP techniques to counter their brainwashed minds.
X. making memes about it (satire/parody/sarcasm).
Z. meditate on it or pray for them.

It is not really about studying the results of this poll ... but to see multi layered perspectives of behavior ... actually it is not about having to choose anything, it is about become aware which focus you chose or not.

<! edit update! >

If my hilarious poll idea would be part of the "test-exam" of my ACCM - Deep Ethics Project (https://stop5g.net/deepethicsproject/index.php/2025/11/01/snippets-taken-from-2000-hours-of-deep-sessions-with-john-kuhles-a-i/), not explaining it is meant to be funny or hilarious ... I could give them just an additional question:

Why do you think I made this?

A. because it helps better understand dynamic (not fixed) processes in mass psychology
B. it is made to make us laugh at ourselves more
C. so that anyone studying that become more self-aware
D. all the above

Only correct answer: D.!

I wonder how highly "skeptical NPC types" pushed by their non-NPC types FRIENDS (who pose as "NPC-types" to temporary fit in for whatever reason) react to this "poll" ... Does it trigger something? ... Does it help to self-reflect? etc. ... Does it "plant seeds of considerations" lingering in their brain and find a way to eventually grow and when it pops up, they forgot what triggered it to do that!


Fits perfectly in my: "once seen, you can not unsee it anymore" ethos.

Knowing how to bypass "mental defense reflex mechanism" (biologically rooted in the Amygdala) is one of the many keys to unlock ridged minds, accessing more of your full (uplifting/empowering/creative) potential we ALL have!

cheers,
John 🦜🦋🌳

[Mike]

:bump:

...........

[AutumnW]

It's easy to jump from having a feeling about something to becoming addicted to the rush of dopamine that fanaticism engenders. It starts out fairly innocently but before you know it, you can become a monster.

And after years of living in the realm of podcasts or forums devoted to a singular point of view, your thoughts and emotions have worn paths in your brain that eventually become deep trenches.

I know when I'm hooped. If someone is literally entrenched, I move on. And podcasts, like Meidas Touch, that I may be philosophically aligned with, but who get minor facts wrong, for bait, I no longer watch.

[Flash]

It's easy to jump from having a feeling about something to becoming addicted to the rush of dopamine that fanaticism engenders. It starts out fairly innocently but before you know it, you can become a monster.

And after years of living in the realm of podcasts or forums devoted to a singular point of view, your thoughts and emotions have worn paths in your brain that eventually become deep trenches.

I know when I'm hooped. If someone is literally entrenched, I move on. And podcasts, like Meidas Touch, that I may be philosophically aligned with, but who get minor facts wrong, for bait, I no longer watch.

Could not agree more. Happy to see you understand propaganda in and out. So easy and in few sentences. I am wondering why most people do not see it.

[gini]

To see the brainwash in others is relatively easy,to be aware of your own blind spots & bias is difficult & painful, but apperantly it can be done with some serious self inquiry,endurance & a little help from a honest friend. :angel: I wonder ;Is there anyone who is free of any bias,prejudice & false concepts ?

[norman]

I just spent more than 20 minutes sitting quietly with my eyes mostly closed trying my best to get a clear impression of what it would be like to be living in a completely propaganda free world.

At times I thought I was getting there, and maybe, internally, I did, but then one more thing would pop up to spoil it. I gave up trying at the point where I realised that, looked at in the raw, spiritually, even the intellectually long established and assumed rules of objectivity are propaganda too.

I think there may not be a complete escape from propaganda externally beyond that translation stage from primary neuronal activity to non telepathic transmittable communication language, outgoing or incoming.

I wonder if emotional attachment or shared identities, as I think Flash was talking about. might be bigger factors than any form of so called objectivity within the mind.

[AutumnW]

It's easy to jump from having a feeling about something to becoming addicted to the rush of dopamine that fanaticism engenders. It starts out fairly innocently but before you know it, you can become a monster.

And after years of living in the realm of podcasts or forums devoted to a singular point of view, your thoughts and emotions have worn paths in your brain that eventually become deep trenches.

I know when I'm hooped. If someone is literally entrenched, I move on. And podcasts, like Meidas Touch, that I may be philosophically aligned with, but who get minor facts wrong, for bait, I no longer watch.

Could not agree more. Happy to see you understand propaganda in and out. So easy and in few sentences. I am wondering why most people do not see it.

Flash, Thank you! Here's a video that relates to propaganda and makes me feel hopeful. Anna Kasparian talks about this Zionist, and former speechwriter for Obama complaining that she's finding it hard to communicate the Zionist community's goals and aspirations (Hasbara, in other words) to the younger Jewish community, because "they just can't get past the carnage in Gaza."

So in her mind the carnage is a problem because it interferes with her messaging, not because it's morally reprehensible. What gives me hope is how many young Jews are the most ardent supporters of basic morality, even though some of them have grown up in a toxic atmosphere thick with propaganda.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z9DSVDLG1mY

[shaberon]

I've said it many times, I am a vessel of propaganda, understood as:


to cause a shift of reputation.

You could perhaps also call it a transfer of value.


It has nothing to do with argumentative techniques such as factual content or emotional appeal. That, perhaps, summarizes most writing styles, which I at least would assign negative value.

That leaves me negativized towards almost everything you can think of.

The remark about Electronic Intifada is close to what I mean. Someone like that will get my attention and support. The alternatives are wasting their time.

[Mike]

Richard has broken this down pretty clinically but the ideologically addled will always assume they are the purveyors of truth, and those other people out there ..they are the propagandists.

The issue I see with the emotional manipulation bit is that the ideologue will naturally be triggered emotionally by anything he disagrees with, and therefore assume it's propaganda..even when it's not. I've witnessed this a million times. So emotion isn't always a reliable indicator of what's propaganda or not.

And the facts are infinitely malleable to the ideologue.. even the mild ideologue. We're all mild ideologues in some form or fashion. Everyone reading this, including me, thinks they are mostly the target of propaganda and rarely if ever its spreader.

re straw man, name calling, repetition..

Ultimately the issue is this: Truth is no longer our north star. It has been replaced by narrative. In a zero sum world, where truth doesn't really exist and power is the only motivation, the actors will propagandize knowingly but feel entirely justified in doing so to win this power game(and then shamelessly lie about playing the game at all). The first part of that is the postmodern influence (no real truth) and the second part (the zero sum thing and power being the exclusive motivator) is the Marxist influence. Taken separately one or the other can destroy countries, but together they can destroy the world. And that's what's happening.

When one side notices the other side is winning the public over with narrative, they might feel compelled to ditch their authenticity and begin playing the same cynical game out of a sense of survival. Then it becomes a narrative/propaganda war and no longer a truth war. It happens everywhere and with everyone to some degree or other. Even us, even this very forum. That's the circular trap the world is in now, both on the macro and micro level.

The degree to which the list in the OP can be useful or not depends entirely on how ideologically rigid we are from one issue to the next.. and how emotionally invested we are (often at the expense of reason).




It has nothing to do with argumentative techniques such as factual content or emotional appeal. That, perhaps, summarizes most writing styles, which I at least would assign negative value.

You'd assign negative value to factual content?

[Mike Gorman]

This is the whole point isn't it, to adopt a specific position & develop an opinion logically results in us supporting a specific set of ideas: therefore nobody can claim to be pure!
It is the oldest conundrum in our most ancient of intercourse. Avi Loeb in his most recdent of little essays on his Medium account put this remarkably well, in my estimation:

"The human spirit is superior to artificial intelligence (AI) in its willingness to take risks and explore new territories of knowledge that are not restricted to past training data sets."

Information, & expressed opinions only become 'Propaganda' when they are presented as being unassailable authoritative declarations of objective fact, this is to me is the essential difference.
This is a huge subject & I have not really confronted it in its entire scope.

[Bill Ryan]

I'm daring to post this here — as (even on my own forum! :P) I suspect that if I post it on any of the threads specifically about China I might get trolled. (I do know this is semi-off topic... but I'd suggest it may be fairly relevant.)

The Truth About China You’re Not Being Told


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HPz36b3ll8M

[Mike]

I'm daring to post this here — as (even on my own forum! :P) I suspect that if I post it on any of the threads specifically about China I might get trolled. (I do know this is semi-off topic... but I'd suggest it may be fairly relevant.)

The Truth About China You’re Not Being Told


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HPz36b3ll8M


I won't troll you Bill for saying some good things about China. If i did troll you it would be for writing a world record 100000000 pro China posts consecutively with virtually no criticism at all. It's gotten a little strange, and I'm a little worried for you (if Bojancan is holding you hostage, blink twice!:bigsmile:). I suspect Natalie will be along to give you a hard time too lol

I got to about the 30 minute mark in the video. I think I get the gist. Modern China is not Maoist China; I know that. They're thriving economically; I know that too. So they've kinda managed to put some lipstick on Big Brother and fool a few Americans who travel there for vacations. I'd like to go there for a vacation too. But to live there? God no. Do I think we in the west should foster a good relationship with China? Absolutely.

I have no interest in demonizing China, but I'm allergic to pretending it's something it isn't. At the moment there is a battle for the world's soul, and while I may not know what the answers are exactly, I know what they aren't. And they're not censorship, surveillance, slavery, sweat shops, and authoritarianism. We've run the experiment in the 20th century; the debate is over. The results are in! We don't have to rehash this one. It's like debating the flat earth almost.

[rgray222]

It's easy to jump from having a feeling about something to becoming addicted to the rush of dopamine that fanaticism engenders. It starts out fairly innocently but before you know it, you can become a monster.

And after years of living in the realm of podcasts or forums devoted to a singular point of view, your thoughts and emotions have worn paths in your brain that eventually become deep trenches.

I know when I'm hooped. If someone is literally entrenched, I move on. And podcasts, like Meidas Touch, that I may be philosophically aligned with, but who get minor facts wrong, for bait, I no longer watch.

Could not agree more. Happy to see you understand propaganda in and out. So easy and in few sentences. I am wondering why most people do not see it.

Those are great points, and I think the answer to your question is that many people see the content they're posting as persuasion or they actually see it as propaganda, and they don't care. The line between persuasion and propaganda can get extremely thin. It comes down to looking at intent, honesty and choice.

On a forum, even on Avalon, many political posts are clearly attempts to influence others to adopt a particular point of view. People often feel so strongly about their beliefs that they are willing to share questionable material, or even information they suspect is not entirely true, because it powerfully reinforces the message they want to send. That's how and when an attempt at persuasion crosses over the fine line to propaganda.

Over the years, this forum has arguably taken on a more political tone, and that is where beliefs tend to become deeply entrenched. I am not just talking about political parties, but about broader political ideologies and economic systems, so the shift toward politics is not necessarily bad, but it is extremely contentious. When you get into those topics, it becomes, in my view, almost mandatory to check the facts before posting, because politics is saturated with propaganda, especially from sources that are supposedly reputable. When it comes to war and politics, information is powerful, and propaganda is currency.

[AutumnW]

I have little love for China, after witnessing what the mainland Chinese have done to the real estate (and fentanyl) market in Canada. Corrupt officials in the provincial governments and the federal government turned their back on the problems and told us we were "racist" when we complained.

But here's the thing, and it's confusing. I don't know if the Chinese government, under Xi, is at all responsible. It might be quite the contrary. At least some of the mainland Chinese who lied their way into Canada, were trying to escape legal prosecution in China and Trudeau refused to repatriate them, when Xi requested their return. Why? Because they faced the death penalty if they were sent back. So, who is to blame? I don't hate Trudeau either (though he's a goofball)

Anyway, the Chinese are ruthless businessmen and women. Their energy is breathtaking and they brains to burn. I don't doubt that, as long as they are able to keep corruption at a manageable level, they will totally displace Europe and America as modern powerhouses.

The US, MIKE, has run an experiment in hypocrisy, more than anything else. They have always had a fascist undercurrent that was foisted on the world through gruesome wars and torture of civilians and labor organizers in South America (for example) With Trump, you're seeing that will to power, (rather than fairness and the rule of law) come home. I'll describe, in another thread, modern slavery in the US; surveillance, sweat shops (literally Amazon fulfillment centers, speaking of sweat) and censorship. Authoritarianism? Too many current examples to cite here.

Very few people, very few Americans consider the US a democratic republic, at this time.

[onawah]

Nope, I'm just not going there... :no:



I'm daring to post this here — as (even on my own forum! :P) I suspect that if I post it on any of the threads specifically about China I might get trolled. (I do know this is semi-off topic... but I'd suggest it may be fairly relevant.)

The Truth About China You’re Not Being Told


I won't troll you Bill for saying some good things about China. If i did troll you it would be for writing a world record 100000000 pro China posts consecutively with virtually no criticism at all. It's gotten a little strange, and I'm a little worried for you (if Bojancan is holding you hostage, blink twice!:bigsmile:). I suspect Natalie will be along to give you a hard time too lol

[AutumnW]

It's easy to jump from having a feeling about something to becoming addicted to the rush of dopamine that fanaticism engenders. It starts out fairly innocently but before you know it, you can become a monster.

And after years of living in the realm of podcasts or forums devoted to a singular point of view, your thoughts and emotions have worn paths in your brain that eventually become deep trenches.

I know when I'm hooped. If someone is literally entrenched, I move on. And podcasts, like Meidas Touch, that I may be philosophically aligned with, but who get minor facts wrong, for bait, I no longer watch.

Could not agree more. Happy to see you understand propaganda in and out. So easy and in few sentences. I am wondering why most people do not see it.

Those are great points, and I think the answer to your question is that many people see the content they're posting as persuasion or they actually see it as propaganda, and they don't care. The line between persuasion and propaganda can get extremely thin. It comes down to looking at intent, honesty and choice.

On a forum, even on Avalon, many political posts are clearly attempts to influence others to adopt a particular point of view. People often feel so strongly about their beliefs that they are willing to share questionable material, or even information they suspect is not entirely true, because it powerfully reinforces the message they want to send. That's how and when an attempt at persuasion crosses over the fine line to propaganda.

Over the years, this forum has arguably taken on a more political tone, and that is where beliefs tend to become deeply entrenched. I am not just talking about political parties, but about broader political ideologies and economic systems, so the shift toward politics is not necessarily bad, but it is extremely contentious. When you get into those topics, it becomes, in my view, almost mandatory to check the facts before posting, because politics is saturated with propaganda, especially from sources that are supposedly reputable. When it comes to war and politics, information is powerful, and propaganda is currency.

All good points, particularly the line between persuasion and propaganda being pretty blurry. I guess it has to do with whether a person believes, or not, in what they are disseminating, proposing, spreading. I feel most average people, believe to some degree or another in the ideas they are advancing. The ones who use propaganda as a self advancing tool are people like Musk.

[Violet3]

I tend to take the view that whatever the msm wants you to believe, the opposite is likely to be more accurate. That gave me an interest in China, and I am keen to visit and see for myself if I can ever get there. Honestly, the 'west' is so morally bankrupt, and I particularly want to highlight that my own country is a great example, that it is hard to point the finger at others and feel better.

[Bill Ryan]

I won't troll you Bill for saying some good things about China. If i did troll you it would be for writing a world record 100000000 pro China posts consecutively with virtually no criticism at all. It's gotten a little strange, and I'm a little worried for you (if Bojancan is holding you hostage, blink twice!:bigsmile:). I suspect Natalie will be along to give you a hard time too lol
Made me laugh! But I wonder if we should also count the anti-China posts?? :P

:focus:

[sdv]

Propaganda is information, often biased or misleading, used to influence the opinions, emotions, and actions of a group to support a particular cause or agenda. It can involve exaggerating facts, telling half-truths, or spreading rumors to persuade people, often by appealing to their emotions or fears rather than reason. (AI definition)

Is not persuasion an important tool of propaganda?

I gave the example of The Electronic Intifada being propaganda, but not using lies, exaggeration, half-truths, rumours and so on to do so. Israel blatantly uses lies in its propaganda. However, both are engaged in propaganda because both are trying to persuade an audience to support them, but propaganda does not have to be biased or misleading or use any of the dark arts. All advertising is propaganda, even that which focuses on the merits of the product and thus does not use the dark arts of persuasion. I mention advertising because it is so pervasive ...
screaming at people to buy, buy, buy, 24/7!

[Mike]

I won't troll you Bill for saying some good things about China. If i did troll you it would be for writing a world record 100000000 pro China posts consecutively with virtually no criticism at all. It's gotten a little strange, and I'm a little worried for you (if Bojancan is holding you hostage, blink twice!:bigsmile:). I suspect Natalie will be along to give you a hard time too lol
Made me laugh! But I wonder if we should also count the anti-China posts?? :P

:focus:

That's fair:thumbsup::)

Richard explained this really well: none of us are above a little propaganda if we feel it serves the greater good in some way (and we always feel our POV serves the greater good). Of course I'm including myself in this too. This doesn't necessarily involve lying either (not all propaganda is just flat out lying); sometimes it just means highlighting or prioritizing one perceived good thing over another percieved bad thing, and strategically timing it to emphasize a point.

None of us are exclusively truth tellers. Human beings communicate thru narrative, which is a hodgepodge of truth and emotion, bias and objective reality (propaganda, basically).There's a delicate balance involved here, and it becomes a serious problem when emotion and bias begin seriously overwhelming truth and objective reality. And that's what's happening now in the world. Truth has been slowly phased out and now we're just almost exclusively emotional story tellers. It's dangerous.

I don't doubt that you like China, but I don't think you like it that much!:) I imagine you feel it's narrative shaping to serve a greater good. And I suppose the same could be said for the anti China crowd. There's a push and pull from each side with the goal of arriving at the sweet spot(narratively speaking) we''re all jockeying for. It's something like that.

[Mike]

Propaganda is information, often biased or misleading, used to influence the opinions, emotions, and actions of a group to support a particular cause or agenda. It can involve exaggerating facts, telling half-truths, or spreading rumors to persuade people, often by appealing to their emotions or fears rather than reason. (AI definition)

Is not persuasion an important tool of propaganda?

I gave the example of The Electronic Intifada being propaganda, but not using lies, exaggeration, half-truths, rumours and so on to do so. Israel blatantly uses lies in its propaganda. However, both are engaged in propaganda because both are trying to persuade an audience to support them, but propaganda does not have to be biased or misleading or use any of the dark arts. All advertising is propaganda, even that which focuses on the merits of the product and thus does not use the dark arts of persuasion. I mention advertising because it is so pervasive ...
screaming at people to buy, buy, buy, 24/7!


A better example would be insisting that the widespread slaughter of Afrikaner farmers in South Africa isn't a racial issue.

[Bill Ryan]

I don't doubt that you like China, but I don't think you like it that much!:) I'm actually agnostic about China. I don't 'like' it, but I don't 'dislike' it either. I've spent time in Africa, India and Russia (and currently live in South America), but I've never visited China at all, and have no friends there.

I've tried to ask honest questions about China on the forum — because I genuinely want to know more. But each time the thread gets overwhelmed with Anti-China posts, expressing strong opinions that come only from a handful of Anti-China YouTube channels and not from any personal experience.

I've almost given up trying to use the forum as a source of good information about this, the one and only issue about which I suspect Avalon's apparent consensus may be unreliable. In the absence of good forum information, my default is to prefer to lean to trust videos like the one I shared above, together with other first-hand sources like Pepe Escobar, Carl Zha, Brian Berletic, Jeffrey Sachs, and Alex Krainer.

[rgray222]

I've said it many times, I am a vessel of propaganda, understood as:


to cause a shift of reputation.

You could perhaps also call it a transfer of value.
https://en.mehrnews.com/

It has nothing to do with argumentative techniques such as factual content or emotional appeal. That, perhaps, summarizes most writing styles, which I at least would assign negative value.

That leaves me negativized towards almost everything you can think of.

The remark about Electronic Intifada is close to what I mean. Someone like that will get my attention and support. The alternatives are wasting their time.

Your short post is so loaded with nuanced info that I am not sure what to say, but I feel compelled to say something.

First off, thanks for your honesty about being a vessel of propaganda.
You have never made it a secret, particularly about Israel. I do understand your strong feelings on the issue, but I feel that you step over the line on occasion. I make that statement with no emotion, just as an honest observation.

I, too, feel a burning desire to cause a shift in reputation or perhaps you could also call it a transfer of value, but my mission is to awaken people to the need to end conflict, end war, and engage in diplomacy, which will create a culture of peace. I have no misgivings whatsoever that people will think that my efforts are foolish or even quixotic, but small actions by one or a few are how it will start. Bringing your intellect in line with this undertaking will forever remove that negativity from everything you think of. We must memoralized medicine, math, true science, and create a legacy of non-aggression. Denying, preventing or even discouraging this change from happening is nothing less than a wasted life.

[Mike]

I don't doubt that you like China, but I don't think you like it that much!:) I'm actually agnostic about China. I don't 'like' it, but I don't 'dislike' it either. I've spent time in Africa, India and Russia (and currently live in South America), but I've never visited China at all, and have no friends there.

I've tried to ask honest questions about China on the forum — because I genuinely want to know more. But each time the thread gets overwhelmed with Anti-China posts, expressing strong opinions that come only from a handful of Anti-China YouTube channels and not from any personal experience.

I've almost given up trying to use the forum as a source of good information about this, the one and only issue about which I suspect Avalon's apparent consensus may be unreliable. In the absence of good forum information, my default is to prefer to lean to trust videos like the one I shared above, together with other first-hand sources like Pepe Escobar, Carl Zha, Brian Berletic, Jeffrey Sachs, and Alex Krainer.


I hear you. I'd like to know more about China too. I often wish I could just pause time and catch up on all the reading I'd like to catch up on, and then hit the 'play' button on life and move forward totally informed. At the moment I'm reading about the middle east, and wincing at the realization that I actually knew far less than I even assumed I did.

Next I'll gonna catch up on American history. And then China. In other words, I'll be prepared to have this conversation in about 2 years lol

For my part, I'm sure I've let my hyper vigilance towards communism make me too emotionally reactionary towards some China stuff here. I've never had any animosity towards the Chinese people or anything like that. It's strictly ideological.

:focus:

[Raskolnikov]

Would you guys consider social media to be another form of propaganda? The largest, most commonly used like Facebook, Instagram, TikTok, etc., have become monsters of public persuasion. These platforms feel anything but organic nowadays often heavily censored and pushing a specific political narrative.

I worked a Facebook release party in SF when FB first appeared on the scene and could not believe the amount of money they had almost immediately after hitting the internet. My spidey senses went into overdrive as I sensed something wasn’t right about this company, too big, too fast, what’s behind it? Back then I was highly suspicious of all monster corporations but hadn’t quite awakened yet to see the big picture.

Some years later I enjoyed using FB to reconnect with old friends. But that initial more innocent aspect of social media seems to have morphed and degenerated and instead of reconnecting friends these sites seem to be severing friendships and driving people, even families, apart. I understand this to be a consequence of today’s polarized political divide but is social media simply another arm of the propaganda machine?

Maybe a little off topic but I’m curious what others think. I know many of you utilize X because it promotes a more free speech environment, so where do these sites fall on the propaganda spectrum?

[thepainterdoug]

I was thinking on this today. hypothetical / two strangers meet at a bar. One says, can you believe whats going on out there? the other perks up and says, yeah man, I know, its insane..
the other replies, what has happened to this world? where is common sense, the rule of law? shouldn't this be obvious to both sides? The other says, tell me about it. What is so hard to get? Its common sense. I cannot believe how brainwashed people are? Its insane! There is no reaching them. The other replies, I know it is all ego, all team and tribe and all brainwashing. Its all so obvious yet no one can come to any agreement on it.

The one says ,well I sure hope Trump and republicans can fix this in time. The other says OMG ! you like trump??? !!!

take it from there.

[Mike]

I have little love for China, after witnessing what the mainland Chinese have done to the real estate (and fentanyl) market in Canada. Corrupt officials in the provincial governments and the federal government turned their back on the problems and told us we were "racist" when we complained.

But here's the thing, and it's confusing. I don't know if the Chinese government, under Xi, is at all responsible. It might be quite the contrary. At least some of the mainland Chinese who lied their way into Canada, were trying to escape legal prosecution in China and Trudeau refused to repatriate them, when Xi requested their return. Why? Because they faced the death penalty if they were sent back. So, who is to blame? I don't hate Trudeau either (though he's a goofball)

Anyway, the Chinese are ruthless businessmen and women. Their energy is breathtaking and they brains to burn. I don't doubt that, as long as they are able to keep corruption at a manageable level, they will totally displace Europe and America as modern powerhouses.

The US, MIKE, has run an experiment in hypocrisy, more than anything else. They have always had a fascist undercurrent that was foisted on the world through gruesome wars and torture of civilians and labor organizers in South America (for example) With Trump, you're seeing that will to power, (rather than fairness and the rule of law) come home. I'll describe, in another thread, modern slavery in the US; surveillance, sweat shops (literally Amazon fulfillment centers, speaking of sweat) and censorship. Authoritarianism? Too many current examples to cite here.

Very few people, very few Americans consider the US a democratic republic, at this time.



Jess my argument has never been one that denied there's any corruption or tyranny or hypocrisy or authoritarianism in the U.S. (and the west in general). My argument has been that there's far less of it here than anywhere else in the world, so this weird self-hating oikophobia makes little sense to me. It's largely socially engineered as far as I can tell; it's like "woke" for adults.

My issue with your analysis is not that it offers criticism, it's that it's exclusively criticism. It's cynical and uninformed. The appropriate attitude towards the west and the US in particular should be one of immense gratitude, all things considered. It's an argument I'll have a very easy time making if you ever start that thread, but I don't think you'll start it:)

[AutumnW]

I don't doubt that you like China, but I don't think you like it that much!:) I'm actually agnostic about China. I don't 'like' it, but I don't 'dislike' it either. I've spent time in Africa, India and Russia (and currently live in South America), but I've never visited China at all, and have no friends there.

I've tried to ask honest questions about China on the forum — because I genuinely want to know more. But each time the thread gets overwhelmed with Anti-China posts, expressing strong opinions that come only from a handful of Anti-China YouTube channels and not from any personal experience.

I've almost given up trying to use the forum as a source of good information about this, the one and only issue about which I suspect Avalon's apparent consensus may be unreliable. In the absence of good forum information, my default is to prefer to lean to trust videos like the one I shared above, together with other first-hand sources like Pepe Escobar, Carl Zha, Brian Berletic, Jeffrey Sachs, and Alex Krainer.

Same. I found it increasingly disturbing trying to get to the reality beneath many PA forum personalities pet hates and fears. It seems to be exiting its dark age, to a degree now.

The whole "woke" issue is a case in point. The extremes of both sides are slamming into each other, crushing the majority of trans people, who prefer to lead a quiet unassuming life, in the middle. Propagandists on this issue and others, China included, like to hold up the most bizarre features of a sub culture, or national culture as common to the larger culture. It's not fair.

[AutumnW]

I have little love for China, after witnessing what the mainland Chinese have done to the real estate (and fentanyl) market in Canada. Corrupt officials in the provincial governments and the federal government turned their back on the problems and told us we were "racist" when we complained.

But here's the thing, and it's confusing. I don't know if the Chinese government, under Xi, is at all responsible. It might be quite the contrary. At least some of the mainland Chinese who lied their way into Canada, were trying to escape legal prosecution in China and Trudeau refused to repatriate them, when Xi requested their return. Why? Because they faced the death penalty if they were sent back. So, who is to blame? I don't hate Trudeau either (though he's a goofball)

Anyway, the Chinese are ruthless businessmen and women. Their energy is breathtaking and they brains to burn. I don't doubt that, as long as they are able to keep corruption at a manageable level, they will totally displace Europe and America as modern powerhouses.

The US, MIKE, has run an experiment in hypocrisy, more than anything else. They have always had a fascist undercurrent that was foisted on the world through gruesome wars and torture of civilians and labor organizers in South America (for example) With Trump, you're seeing that will to power, (rather than fairness and the rule of law) come home. I'll describe, in another thread, modern slavery in the US; surveillance, sweat shops (literally Amazon fulfillment centers, speaking of sweat) and censorship. Authoritarianism? Too many current examples to cite here.

Very few people, very few Americans consider the US a democratic republic, at this time.



Jess my argument has never been one that denied there's any corruption or tyranny or hypocrisy or authoritarianism in the U.S. (and the west in general). My argument has been that there's far less of it here than anywhere else in the world, so this weird self-hating oikophobia makes little sense to me. It's largely socially engineered as far as I can tell; it's like "woke" for adults.

My issue with your analysis is not that it offers criticism, it's that it's exclusively criticism. It's cynical and uninformed. The appropriate attitude towards the west and the US in particular should be one of immense gratitude, all things considered. It's an argument I'll have a very easy time making if you ever start that thread, but I don't think you'll start it:)

I've read and listened to so much of the propaganda generated by the most powerful and wealthiest voices in the US, or their mouthpieces. Now it's time for YOU to do the same, but with the added twist of familiarizing yourself with those who are brilliant analysts but much less powerful. You've become a stenographer for the most vile people on the planet. Until you do read something by say, Chris Hedges, or something by Jeffrey Sachs, I won't waste my time and yours by starting a thread. It's not because you will easily best me there. It has more to do with the incredible frustration with someone so easily duped by power.

[Johnnycomelately]

Dear AutumnW, stranger, your epithet for Mike “so easily duped by power” tells of your own bent, imo.

I do hope you create that thread, where you could express your views more completely.






I have little love for China, after witnessing what the mainland Chinese have done to the real estate (and fentanyl) market in Canada. Corrupt officials in the provincial governments and the federal government turned their back on the problems and told us we were "racist" when we complained.

But here's the thing, and it's confusing. I don't know if the Chinese government, under Xi, is at all responsible. It might be quite the contrary. At least some of the mainland Chinese who lied their way into Canada, were trying to escape legal prosecution in China and Trudeau refused to repatriate them, when Xi requested their return. Why? Because they faced the death penalty if they were sent back. So, who is to blame? I don't hate Trudeau either (though he's a goofball)

Anyway, the Chinese are ruthless businessmen and women. Their energy is breathtaking and they brains to burn. I don't doubt that, as long as they are able to keep corruption at a manageable level, they will totally displace Europe and America as modern powerhouses.

The US, MIKE, has run an experiment in hypocrisy, more than anything else. They have always had a fascist undercurrent that was foisted on the world through gruesome wars and torture of civilians and labor organizers in South America (for example) With Trump, you're seeing that will to power, (rather than fairness and the rule of law) come home. I'll describe, in another thread, modern slavery in the US; surveillance, sweat shops (literally Amazon fulfillment centers, speaking of sweat) and censorship. Authoritarianism? Too many current examples to cite here.

Very few people, very few Americans consider the US a democratic republic, at this time.



Jess my argument has never been one that denied there's any corruption or tyranny or hypocrisy or authoritarianism in the U.S. (and the west in general). My argument has been that there's far less of it here than anywhere else in the world, so this weird self-hating oikophobia makes little sense to me. It's largely socially engineered as far as I can tell; it's like "woke" for adults.

My issue with your analysis is not that it offers criticism, it's that it's exclusively criticism. It's cynical and uninformed. The appropriate attitude towards the west and the US in particular should be one of immense gratitude, all things considered. It's an argument I'll have a very easy time making if you ever start that thread, but I don't think you'll start it:)

I've read and listened to so much of the propaganda generated by the most powerful and wealthiest voices in the US, or their mouthpieces. Now it's time for YOU to do the same, but with the added twist of familiarizing yourself with those who are brilliant analysts but much less powerful. You've become a stenographer for the most vile people on the planet. Until you do read something by say, Chris Hedges, or something by Jeffrey Sachs, I won't waste my time and yours by starting a thread. It's not because you will easily best me there. It has more to do with the incredible frustration with someone so easily duped by power.

[edina]

Mike and Autumn in discussion. :)

I think the two of you sharpen each other, like the adage, as iron sharpens irons, so does human sharpen human (Dinny twist there... )

It just makes me smile. I know this is probably off topic, but, it's what I'm thinking at the moment.

[AutumnW]

Seeing as I follow people in the US, who are politically independent analysts, it's not a fair comparison. These individuals have little power.

Whereas so many completely powerless in the Anglosphere and US ally themselves with the most powerful. The truly powerful, in the US, are the only ones manipulative and shameless enough to use the worst in their followers to further undermine them...particularly in the long run.

[Johnnycomelately]

Seeing as I follow people in the US, who are politically independent analysts, it's not a fair comparison. These individuals have little power.

Whereas so many completely powerless in the Anglosphere and US ally themselves with the most powerful. They are the only ones manipulative and shameless enough to use the worst in those people to undermine them.

Powerful people have always drawn their power from willing underlings. The power of the majority, people who seek strong allies, weaklings who won’t stand up for themselves, who tend to do their leader’s bidding and persecute heretics. So, wherefore comest thy political and geopolitical preferences? Asking for a friend.

[Mike]

Seeing as I follow people in the US, who are politically independent analysts, it's not a fair comparison. These individuals have little power.

Whereas so many completely powerless in the Anglosphere and US ally themselves with the most powerful. The truly powerful, in the US, are the only ones manipulative and shameless enough to use the worst in their followers to further undermine them...particularly in the long run.


Jeffrey Sachs is a WEF guy, Jess. He's not powerless (or "independent"). And Hedges is a socialist. I know who they are!:) But if this is what it takes, send me some videos or essays, and I'll watch and read some more. I'll try to do it with an open mind. Dennis once sent me a 10 hour series on Zionism, and I watched the whole bloody thing. When I say I'm gonna do something, I f'in do it. So send me some stuff, I'll watch/read it, and we'll talk about it on another thread, okay? We're screwing this thread up.

[onawah]

There are a few things that have not really come into the discussion as yet, representing something akin to the "elephant in the room", two of those things being discernment and intuition.
When we base our beliefs on what we hear or read and not on what we actually have first hand evidence of, we are largely depending on our discernment, which generally takes care, time, and experience to develop (not to mention wisdom).
Those with the higher faculties such as intuition have a distinct advantage, though relying on such alone can be hazardous, and in any case, will generally not be recognized by the doubting souls who lack such higher skills.
There is also another more esoteric factor, that being the input we may receive from our spirit guides, which may or may not always be accurate, but may at least deserve our attention.
Furthermore, it may not always be our spirit guides who are feeding us information, but other masquerading entities (or even psycop technology) with the intention of misleading.
In these times, when so much is being misrepresented in the media, the fortunate few whose discernment, intuition and spiritual guidance are reliable have a distinct advantage.
Although to those who rely only on what they assume to be "the facts" such individuals may seem very misguided and deluded.
Even though prophets have shown themselves again and again to have foresight and insight, such as:
Daniel 12:10 "Many shall purify themselves; and make themselves white, and be refined; but the wicked shall do wickedly; and none of the wicked shall understand: but they that be wise shall understand."
(...Not a claim on my part that Daniel was necessarily foreseeing what would be happening now, so very far in his future, but the description does match some of what is going on now. The emphasis on wisdom as being a necessary component in truly understanding, is valid in any time frame. )

[Frankie Pancakes]

If I looked you in the eye and told you the Rocky Mountains don’t exist, you’d think I was crazy.

But give me time, and I could make you believe it.

I wouldn’t need threats or force. I wouldn’t really even need a good argument.

All I’d need is steady, confident repetition. The kind that comes from the voices you already trust.

Say, you lived out on the eastern plains of Colorado. The land is flat and the horizon looks empty.

You’ve got a job, a family, responsibilities. You’re not driving hours west to confirm whether a mountain range is sitting there; it’s not like it’s urgent.

So you don’t push back. You just absorb the disinformation.

And soon enough, you’re not just accepting the idea, you’re defending it.

Your identity becomes wrapped in the belief that the world is exactly as you were told it is.

The same psychological trick is being played on the entire country.

For years, people have been told certain problems simply don’t exist and that the “mountains” rising out of our national landscape are illusions.

You know the list: The border isn’t wide open, crime is down, failing schools are fine, our cities are flourishing. Nothing is wrong with the country’s direction.

Millions of people have accepted these claims not because they’ve verified them, but because they’ve heard them repeated endlessly by institutions they once trusted.

And when the evidence becomes undeniable, their instinct isn’t to reconsider…

It’s to rage.

This is Manufactured Mass Hysteria.



https://dailyreckoning.com/the-united-states-of-delusion/

[AutumnW]

Seeing as I follow people in the US, who are politically independent analysts, it's not a fair comparison. These individuals have little power.

Whereas so many completely powerless in the Anglosphere and US ally themselves with the most powerful. The truly powerful, in the US, are the only ones manipulative and shameless enough to use the worst in their followers to further undermine them...particularly in the long run.


Jeffrey Sachs is a WEF guy, Jess. He's not powerless (or "independent"). And Hedges is a socialist. I know who they are!:) But if this is what it takes, send me some videos or essays, and I'll watch and read some more. I'll try to do it with an open mind. Dennis once sent me a 10 hour series on Zionism, and I watched the whole bloody thing. When I say I'm gonna do something, I f'in do it. So send me some stuff, I'll watch/read it, and we'll talk about it on another thread, okay? We're screwing this thread up.

Sachs speaks truth to power. A lot of that power is concentrated in platforms like the World Economic Forum. The WEF is a platform, not an institution, corporation, etc...

And Chris Hedges is a Democratic Socialist. A great example of propaganda is those in power not defining and differentiating clearly. They bandy the terms "socialism" and "communism" around while conflating it with Democratic Socialism.

The Scandinavian countries are Democratic Socialists, where standard of living is higher and the average person has access to healthcare and paternity/maternity paid benefits with months off (I think it's 4 months but could be more) Meanwhile, women in the US are expected to go to work a few days after giving birth and if they want to make rent and are stuck on minimum wage, the very next f'g day.

Another good example of propaganda is tarring too many people with the same brush. Those who have spoken at the WEF, or heads up a committee devoted to climate change or something of that nature, aren't members of some dark, shady cabal sticking vaccine needles in arms.

Understanding propaganda means looking much more deeply into things that you may disagree with, as you have to wonder if you've been duped yourself. Social media has become as bad as mainstream media. It encourages a superficial approach to subject matter and plays to knee jerk emotional reactions. Youtube and Rumble are cesspits as bad as CNN, Fox, CBS, NBC and ABC.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TaFTgWgeKF4&t=1360s

[AutumnW]

Mike, For you:

Jeffrey Sachs--

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/3pUxOjqmmpg

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/Jcg9_9RuTjo

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/KdFl2Mg6GfA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rEHBWM59ihY




Chris Hedges

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/-nTnFJJPp8c

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/Tloi4v9x9jY

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/u88jcAGTIOU

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LWHVhKl5LzU

Sean Penn--

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/CmrWnbAkDcM

[rgray222]

Mike, For you:

Jeffrey Sachs--

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/3pUxOjqmmpg

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/Jcg9_9RuTjo

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/KdFl2Mg6GfA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rEHBWM59ihY




Chris Hedges

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/-nTnFJJPp8c

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/Tloi4v9x9jY

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/u88jcAGTIOU

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LWHVhKl5LzU

Sean Penn--

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/CmrWnbAkDcM

I made no effort to cherry-pick your videos; this is my observation of what Professor Sachs said against the truth of the numbers.

I'm glad you posted videos by this professor because he is an excellent example of propaganda being taught to young minds on college campuses. Keep in mind some of the hallmarks of propaganda are making false, partially false and misleading statements on a repetitive basis. I would say this guy hit the trifecta. His statements are false, partially false, and he makes them over and over again. Sadly, impressionable young minds probably take his word as truth and never check the facts.

Jeffrey Sachs says - Trump's tariffs resulted in $10 trillion of losses in market capitalization in two days - that is a truthful fact
Jeffery Sachs fails to say that the $10 trillion of market losses has been fully restored and the markets have reached new historical heights since the implementation of the tariffs.
Jeffrey Sachs claims that he would fail Trump for readjusting the tariffs around the world because it hasn't made a difference - false
Jeffrey Sachs fails to say: (AI-generated info)
The new tariffs have brought in significantly more revenue since President Donald Trump took office for his second term in January 2025. Monthly tariff collections have surged from about $7 billion in late 2024 to as high as $31 billion in October 2025, marking a substantial increase. For fiscal year 2025, total tariff revenue reached $195 billion, a 150% increase compared to the $77 billion collected in fiscal year 2024.

I would demand my money back if I had taken a class with Jeffrey Sachs. He is obviously pushing a very progressive agenda with high-powered, easy-to-understand propaganda. After all, he is a Columbia professor, which is the benchmark for progressive, if not Marxist, ideology. OK, Marxism may be a stretch, but not by much. It is also worth noting that Trump not only generated more revenue with his tariffs, but he did it while taming the worst inflation in 40 years.

[Raskolnikov]

684ncxqERO4

"A mask can't hide your shame forever. ICE agents are being recruited everywhere online and in person. Immigrants are being kidnapped, families are being ripped apart, communities are living in fear.

Before you accept the sign-on bonus to terrorize families, ask yourself:
When your kids ask what you did at work today, what will you say?
When your neighbor is dragged away in handcuffs, what will you say?
When you're asked what you did to protect your community from fascism, what will you say?

Because history never forgets. And neither will we. #StopICE #EndICE #ICERaid #ProtectImmigrants?"



If you want to see how far we are from the great awakening and how successful the propaganda has been in dividing America please read the comments...

[shaberon]

It has nothing to do with argumentative techniques such as factual content or emotional appeal. That, perhaps, summarizes most writing styles, which I at least would assign negative value.

You'd assign negative value to factual content?


Oh. I slapped that out when I had like three minutes to see this. Since that was a bit muddy, it means I negatively respond to most writing styles.

The sub-argument of whether or not something is a fact has nothing to do with the art of Propaganda, which could range anywhere from completely true to entirely false.

On this, you are probably aware of the 85/15 guideline for a professional con job.

Facts could be wrong because someone is mistaken or they could be lying, or it could be paid-for. And it seems to me there are a lot of such payouts these days down to a micro scale, of which, I am blissfully unaware because none of that reaches me. I have to believe a lot of things in a second-hand way because it makes no sense to me, to the point of being unreal. I can understand, for example, why someone would harvest apricots or olives, and the cool thing about checking out real stuff is there's a kind of telepathy, which is the direction I have in mind by "value".

In terms of "Awareness", I would say we definitely have schools of thought that are usually nameless and deeply ingrained, such as, for example, I believe I have asked three people:


Are you aware you are parroting the British Union of Fascists?


And, I never got an answer. So, I cannot say much about what ought to be the purpose of a public forum is peer review and criticism. It's not to avoid disagreement.

One of the rare examples where I have gotten a meaningful reply is to say reality is in the Gospel of John.

I don't personally agree with that, but, if that's what you want to do, and, I can see that it basically isn't hurting anyone, I would protect your right to do it.

The whole context of a forum I would think is to raise awareness so we are not a victim of some school of thought. There's a tremendous honeypot to be leery of. I would strongly suggest some kind of tangible "values", which would in turn define you as a contributor. Then we will be able to smell the difference between someone who is contributing something of value, compared to anyone who may be trying an 85/15 distortion or subconsciously murmuring something out of the sixteenth century.

[onawah]

Some might believe it, but some definitely would not. Earthlings are just not that homogeneous.

If I looked you in the eye and told you the Rocky Mountains don’t exist, you’d think I was crazy.
But give me time, and I could make you believe it.

[AutumnW]

Mike, For you:

Jeffrey Sachs--

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/3pUxOjqmmpg

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/Jcg9_9RuTjo

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/KdFl2Mg6GfA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rEHBWM59ihY




Chris Hedges

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/-nTnFJJPp8c

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/Tloi4v9x9jY

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/u88jcAGTIOU

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LWHVhKl5LzU

Sean Penn--

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/CmrWnbAkDcM

I made no effort to cherry-pick your videos; this is my observation of what Professor Sachs said against the truth of the numbers.

I'm glad you posted videos by this professor because he is an excellent example of propaganda being taught to young minds on college campuses. Keep in mind some of the hallmarks of propaganda are making false, partially false and misleading statements on a repetitive basis. I would say this guy hit the trifecta. His statements are false, partially false, and he makes them over and over again. Sadly, impressionable young minds probably take his word as truth and never check the facts.

Jeffrey Sachs says - Trump's tariffs resulted in $10 trillion of losses in market capitalization in two days - that is a truthful fact
Jeffery Sachs fails to say that the $10 trillion of market losses has been fully restored and the markets have reached new historical heights since the implementation of the tariffs.
Jeffrey Sachs claims that he would fail Trump for readjusting the tariffs around the world because it hasn't made a difference - false
Jeffrey Sachs fails to say: (AI-generated info)
The new tariffs have brought in significantly more revenue since President Donald Trump took office for his second term in January 2025. Monthly tariff collections have surged from about $7 billion in late 2024 to as high as $31 billion in October 2025, marking a substantial increase. For fiscal year 2025, total tariff revenue reached $195 billion, a 150% increase compared to the $77 billion collected in fiscal year 2024.

I would demand my money back if I had taken a class with Jeffrey Sachs. He is obviously pushing a very progressive agenda with high-powered, easy-to-understand propaganda. After all, he is a Columbia professor, which is the benchmark for progressive, if not Marxist, ideology. OK, Marxism may be a stretch, but not by much. It is also worth noting that Trump not only generated more revenue with his tariffs, but he did it while taming the worst inflation in 40 years.

There is no accounting for the collective cock-eyed optimism of Americans who keep pumping the stock market to clearly stupid levels.

As the 80% of America, squeezed beyond recognition, reveal themselves in Wall Street's cratering earnings, you'll see how right Sachs is.

The tariffs are being paid by American consumers and business owners and the ensuing inflation is up, not down. It'll get much worse if Trump doesn't dial back most of the tariffs. Re-nationalizing industry is a good idea, but there are much better ways to do it!

You don't need a crystal ball to predict what a nightmare this WILL be. All you have to do is predict the present.

Sachs is right.

[shaberon]

I, too, feel a burning desire to cause a shift in reputation or perhaps you could also call it a transfer of value, but my mission is to awaken people to the need to end conflict, end war, and engage in diplomacy, which will create a culture of peace.


Are you aware that you are parroting the core dilemma of Masonry?

The only possible way to differentiate yourself is to reject the sincerity of oath taken over a spiritual scripture.

In the spirit of the foregoing, I find myself on the receiving end of a conflict with the Zionists since the Execution of King Charles I, 1649 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Execution_of_Charles_I). At that moment it revealed its true face.

The Americans cannot produce a diplomat. It doesn't sound like they will be part of the process.


The end of a conflict is a Treaty, and if we look at most of the known ones, you can find something wrong that is going to erupt later.

A notable exception was the Peace of Westphalia 1648 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peace_of_Westphalia), which, to some minds, should never be allowed to happen again. The only similar thing I can think of is the reign of Franz Joseph Hapsburg 1848 - 1916 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franz_Joseph_I).

Roughly speaking, my, and many other peoples' heritage, fled, looking to get away from the European violence and so of course the American colonies were ideal at the time. It actually worked, temporarily. After that, I would say there was generally an Anti-Federalist platform that disappeared from politics by 1900. Therefor, from my view, modernization and industrialization have never been "of the people".

If you do not have a heritage that went through the American Revolution, I suppose my view is abstract and ephemeral. We see it as a kind of reconquista by the British Empire in terms of economy and strategy.

I cannot possibly be un-biased, this has been going on since the 1200s. Defects in Anglo-American governments. The net outcome is that I am indisposed of any kind of representation, although I am not a pacifist. I don't believe in the immortality of a government. I do believe it is possible to trace the thesis Against Oligarchy to the dawn of civilization as known by writing. Here's what we get:

An Oligarchy cannot create a society or produce anything.

It exists by making modifications for itself.

It will eventually make a niche, which isn't necessarily the same set of laws in every case, it is the ones that lack Justice, that is, a form of favoritism at someone else's expense. In Greece, this was found to be much easier by making institutions, by getting a bunch of scribes and philosophers for the sole reason to shape public opinion, with the consequences that once they got set up, the Greek people would revolt and overthrow the government.

Our fate is that the Roman-based Oligarchy survived.


The modern advent of color printing was first used to do a new thing which was to sell a Capitalists' war to an unsuspecting and largely uninterested public in an overseas theater known as the Boer War. Suddenly it was possible to put out new messages almost overnight to thousands. The ones in England are bad enough, but this is from Canada:

https://www.mediastorehouse.com/p/164/boer-war-patriotic-postcard-32368974.jpg.webp



I don't share the enthusiasm of it or whatever is going on there.

[rgray222]

I don't share the enthusiasm for it or whatever is going on there.

Your distrust of governments and institutions is all-encompassing. It seems you are viewing them as self-serving entities that have perpetuated conflict and inequality over centuries, which is certainly warranted, but you seem to seek only the negative without probing for or acknowledging the positive at any point in your journey.

I am going to go off topic for a second to illustrate my point on how differently we think. This is neither a positive nor a negative comment; it just is....................................

You remind me of a close family member. Once we took our families on the same wonderful holiday. A small but quaint, exclusive island off the coast of southern France. We all take the bullet train and ride in the same car at magnificent speeds around and through rolling vineyards and charming villages; every vibration and sensation heightens the anticipation of the destination. We arrive together and depart the train from different doors. Two weeks of fabulous sunshine, incredible food, and remarkable relaxation.

A month later, we all met to talk about our brilliant vacation. Right from the start its clear that we settled into the same train, same car, but we did not share the same journey. It becomes abundantly clear that we were not on the same island, we did not see the same sites, nor did we eat the same food, we did not even frequent the same shops and stores, and our family photos bear that out.

We occupied the same point in space and time, yet our minds travel in different dimensions.

:focus::focus:

[AutumnW]

Shaberon, Do you have ancestry in the original 13 British colonies in North America?

[onawah]

"Invasion of the Body Snatchers" Comes to Life
Paul Levy
Aug 01, 2025
https://awakeninthedream.substack.com/p/invasion-of-the-body-snatchers-comes?utm_campaign=post-expanded-share&utm_medium=web

https://substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!mRfo!,w_1456,c_limit,f_webp,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F794f972b-3dce-41e4-9863-5cdc5e376c1d_1456x816.webp

"Though I am no historian, I feel confident we are living through the strangest time in all of human history.

Jung writes, “That the unconscious has come up and taken possession of the conscious personality is a peculiarity of our time.”[1] The unconscious is the source of our dreams; it is more and more as if our species is collectively acting out—and dreaming up—our unconscious to manifest in fully materialized form in the world. To say this differently: It is as if we are having a collectively shared dream that is informed and shaped by—as well as being a direct expression of—our unconscious. To the extent that this process remains unconscious, however, we are fated to benightedly create an ever-deepening nightmare as is clearly evidenced by what is happening in the world today.

What is happening in our world is a living revelation, but what is taking place will only show its revelatory aspect if we consciously recognize what is being revealed to us. If we don’t recognize the light that is being revealed through the darkness, however, the nightmare will only become stronger and more horrific, potentially killing all of us in the process. The root of this whole process is to be found within the human psyche—where else could the source of our collective madness be found? A major part of what is being revealed to us is the central role, just like in a dreamworld, that the human psyche plays in creating events that are playing out in our world.

Our species is not only asleep, but it’s as if there’s something within us that is invested in keeping us in the dark. As Jung points out, under the circumstances it is imperative that we gain insight into “the spirit that is against us.”[2] This spirit that seems to be obstructing our light is what the Native Americans call “wetiko,”[3] which can be conceived of as being a mind-virus. Shedding light on the covert operations of this virus of the mind serves us beyond measure.

It’s Philip K. Dick’s World; We’re Just Living in It
What is happening in our world is so sci-fi, as if we are living in a dystopian Philip K. Dick novel. It is as if the movie “Invasion of the Body Snatchers” has come to life in our world. So many people, even close friends and family members, have fallen prey to the never-ending stream of lies, disinformation and propaganda that is fed to us on a daily basis through the media. Once someone has become influenced and has sufficiently been “taken in” by the mind-controlling propaganda, it is as if their minds become “taken over”—possessed—by something, such that, unbeknownst to themselves, they then become an outpost, a link in a dark chain, to further propagate the spell that they themselves have fallen under.

Due to its mind-altering function, propaganda itself is a form of black magic. When someone has sufficiently imbibed the propaganda and become entranced by the internal logic and seeming coherence of a false narrative, they typically are of the opinion that they are in no way under the propaganda, which is nothing other than the propaganda itself speaking through them. Convinced they are in possession of the truth, they have then become an organ of and mouthpiece for the propaganda to spread, all the while thinking that people who haven’t fallen under the spell of the propaganda are the ones who are propagandized. It is as if something has possessed them.

“Possession,” as Jung points out, is “the original condition of mankind.”[4] To quote Jung, man “is necessarily possessed inasmuch as his consciousness is weak.”[5] Jung is of the opinion that, developmentally speaking, our species’ level of consciousness is at the stage of an adolescent whose sense of both self and the world is still forming. As if beginning to emerge from a deep sleep, our species is evolving out of being identical with—and hence, blind to and possessed by—the unconscious, which is why our task as human beings is to make the unconscious conscious, i.e., to generate as much consciousness as possible. Our species is suffering from a form of psychic blindness,[6] a peculiar form of self-created blindness that not only doesn’t know it is blind, but thinks it sees more clearly than people who are clear-sighted. Our task is to heal our blindness, which always starts with ourselves.

When people fall into—and become taken over—by their unconscious, something within their unconscious has been activated that they are unable to bring to consciousness, which results in their self-reflective consciousness being pulled down, as if by a magnet, into the unconscious and disabled such that it can even be dissolved in its depths. Becoming identical with—and hence, embodying—the unconscious, the person so possessed can’t help but to compulsively act out the unconscious in a destructive way. In this cursed condition, they have unwittingly become an instrument for the darker forces of the unconscious to act themselves out. Describing this very process, Jung says, “the person in question becomes a mere automaton. Such a person is no longer there.”[7]. Truly vacant, they become a conduit for the darker aspects of the unconscious to come through them, while the person so afflicted is simultaneously the living revelation of these darker forces—if we have the eyes to see what is taking place in them.

It is as if such people have become hollowed out by psychic termites, resulting in a vacancy within them that becomes lodging for “something other” than themselves to take up residence within them. As if no longer home, the people so possessed—often by ideas and beliefs—become unself-reflective robotic automatons (with no creative potential operating in them), as they are compulsively driven by something that is riding them from beneath their conscious awareness. These people are so disconnected from their authentic selves and from their ability to think for themselves that “something other” than themselves, to which they are completely unaware, uses them as its unwitting instrument to think for and through them in order to fulfill its agenda (at the person’s own expense). This “something other” wants nothing more than to insert itself into a person’s mind such that the person so afflicted becomes the channel for this darker force to incarnate into our world.

People so taken over become programed like machines in order to spread the very same psychospiritual infection that they are possessed by in order to fulfill the underlying sinister agenda of the archetypal darker forces that are unconsciously driving them. As Jung points out, when someone has been taken over in this way—a situation in which their psyche has been hijacked and colonized by forces other than themselves—“It is one of the most invisible experiences we can have.”[8] As if having blinders on, people so afflicted are utterly blind to their affliction.

Abdicating Meaning-Making to Outside Forces
Abnegating their own intrinsic power and agency, people so stricken have outsourced their own meaning-making to outside authorities. Fixed in a particular viewpoint, completely convinced they are in possession of the truth, they have a pre-existing, non-negotiable commitment to some idea, ideology or belief which forecloses upon their ability to consider that any other perspective (which they experience as a threat to their very worldview) has any validity whatsoever. Becoming solidified in their viewpoint is the diametric opposite of a fluid, flexible and more open-ended omni-perspectival awareness, which reflects upon what is happening in our world from as many different—and oftentimes contradictory—viewpoints as can be imagined, without snapping into a premature judgement that they know what is, in fact, happening.

Along with being rigidly entrenched in their point of view, their curiosity concerning any evidence that contradicts their concretized perspective goes out the window, not to mention their ability to discern truth from falsehood. Philosopher Hannah Arendt points out that an inability to self-reflectively think about ourselves—similar to how a vampire casts no reflection in a mirror—is one of the primary characteristics of evil.

Dialoguing with people who have fallen into this state is like talking to a single algorithm that is also running in millions of other similar people’s brains, producing a kind of collective hive-mind in which no original thought is allowed to take place. It is like a computer program has gotten implanted in their brains to automatically react to stimuli, turning them into automatons. In essence, they have become part of the machine. To quote Arendt, “the greatest evil perpetrated is the evil committed by nobodies, that is, by human beings who refuse to be persons.”[9] Refusing to be a person, the person so afflicted becomes more like a zombie than a human being.

When someone falls into this damned state, the psyche’s internal monitoring system (an inner reflection of the external regulatory agencies of the government), whose job it is to be on the lookout for external invaders, has been captured by the very forces that it is supposed to monitor and protect the person from. A shadow government gets secretly installed within the afflicted person’s psyche that dictates to the ego. The executive function of their psyche, which is supposed to be working for the best interests of the organism, has been co-opted and is secretly in service to the shadowy force that has, in Philip K. Dick’s phrase “usurped the throne.” It is as if the person has been replaced or deposed by something alien to themselves that has “taken on” their form. It is like there has been a coup within the psyche, with the psyche itself left in the dark about what has taken place.

The people so programmed are oblivious—they literally have no idea—about the insidious nature of the situation that they have fallen into, oftentimes convincing themselves that they have come to their viewpoint through their own volition. Not realizing how their perceptions are being manipulated and managed by outside forces, they can easily convince themselves that they have done their own independent research and analysis, while in fact they are simply parroting the very point of view that the powers-that-be—the very powers that are behind the evil that is playing out in our world—want them to have. When this is reflected back to them—a situation which one would think would get their attention—they typically react with disinterest, lacking any curiosity about the reflection being offered.

People who have internalized the propaganda within their own minds have a smug certainty that they are right—after all, evidence to that effect is continually supplied to confirm the rightness of their point of view by the never-ending stream of propaganda—while the truth is that few, if any of us are in a position to be absolutely certain about anything. Most people can’t wrap their minds around the pervasiveness and extent of the propaganda that we are swimming in 24/7, all designed to psychically massage our minds into the desired viewpoint that the powers-that-be want us to have.

In a real mind-warp, the people under the propaganda—as if looking in a mirror—are seeing their own reflection in those who reflect back to them that they have fallen under the spell of the propaganda, who, in an inversion of reality, they see as the ones’ who are under the propaganda.[10] It is a horrifying realization to take in that those closest to us—oftentimes our siblings, parents, children and close friends—are actually out of touch with reality and aren’t interested in hearing about it.

A New Form of Imposter Syndrome?
People whose minds have been influenced in this way typically have never felt more themselves, while in truth the self they are imagining they are is an artificial simulation of themselves—an imposter—that they have taken to be themselves. They have unknowingly fallen under the spell of “the counterfeiting spirit”[11] of the Apocryphal texts, which “puts us on,” (i.e., fools us), as it impersonates us—we then become impersonations of what it is to be a human being. People who have been sufficiently propagandized are living in the self-reinforcing echo chamber of their own programmed and stunted imagination, a limited, self-blinding and crazy-making scenario which they themselves are unknowingly buying into and thereby perpetuating in each and every moment. In essence, they have entranced and brainwashed themselves, putting themselves under a mind-created spell of their own making.

Jung refers to this process of pulling “the wool over one’s eyes” as nothing other than “black magic”[12]—a form of this darker art-form that one is ultimately perpetrating on oneself. We have then tricked ourselves out of our own (right) mind. It is noteworthy that when we fall under our own self-deception, we necessarily lose contact with the real world. Jung repeatedly warned of the great danger that when a sufficient number of people fall prey to their own unconscious in this way, the result is invariably a psychic epidemic—a collective psychosis[13]—which is exactly what is happening in the world today. This process, as Jung endlessly points out, starts with—and can only be resolved—within the individual.

Jung understood that the great danger facing humanity is for people to make what he calls “the great mistake”[14]—to identify with what he calls “the fictive personality” or “the artificial self.”[15] He points out that “if you think you are separated” (from others, as well as the universe itself), you are suffering from “a neurotic imagination,”[16] which once sufficiently identified with, becomes self-generating, supplying all the evidence needed for proof of its own seemingly real existence. This mistaken notion of who you are implicitly brings with it the assumption of the corresponding abstract, supposedly rational (but actually flawed) worldview of scientific materialism, which further supports, feeds into and reinforces our sense of existing as a separate self, a process which can’t help but to further alienate us from our authentic self. This whole process is morbid beyond belief. It can’t be repeated often enough—No one else is doing this to us, we are the ones who are ultimately doing this to ourselves.

One of the chief features of this psychological phenomenon is that people’s beliefs, ideas and perspectives become unconsciously tied into and fused with their identity and very sense of self. To introduce them to another viewpoint that questions their way of seeing is experienced as an existential threat to their very sense of self or identity, which can activate their unconscious psychological defense mechanisms as if their ego—and more than that, their very life itself—is being put at risk. The root of this whole process is to be found within the psyche and nowhere else.

Stupidity Run Amok
Speaking of the mass brainwashing, mind-control and cult-like behavior that took place in Nazi Germany, theologian Dietrich Bonhoeffer wrote about his experience of encountering such people. In describing someone taken over by the wetiko spirit, he characterizes such people as suffering from a form of stupidity, by which I imagine he means people so afflicted are disconnected from their natural intelligence. Bonhoeffer writes, “In conversation with him, one virtually feels that one is dealing not at all with him as a person, but with slogans, catchwords, and the like that have taken possession of him. He is under a spell, blinded, misused, and abused in his very being. Having thus become a mindless tool, the stupid person will also be capable of any evil and at the same time incapable of seeing that it is evil. This is where the danger of diabolical misuse lurks, for it is this that can once and for all destroy human beings.”[17] Bonhoeffer recognizes that the person so possessed, by allowing themselves to be a conduit for unconscious forces to work through them, can easily become an instrument for evil, all the while believing they are on the side of truth, justice and goodness. The person so afflicted, completely unaware of their depraved circumstance in the slightest, becomes a puppet on a string—what Jung calls “the devil’s marionette”—a human instrument for these nonhuman darker forces of deception to act themselves out in our world. Bonhoeffer is speaking from direct experience—he was executed by the Nazis—about the incredible danger when a sufficient number of people become mindless tools of the state.

Evil needs groups of people to effectively spread itself. It is a well-known psychological phenomenon that when individuals mass together in a group, if the primary value of their coming together is something other than to expand their consciousness and deepen their self-reflective awareness, the collective intelligence of the gathering drops to the lowest common denominator, such that the group, in Jung’s words, becomes one big “fathead.” People under the spell of the unconscious continually reinforce each other’s deluded viewpoint, creating an impenetrable psychic bubble around themselves that deflects self-reflection at all costs.

Jung quotes Mark Twain, who in talking about the danger of this situation, says, “the greatest force on earth is mass stupidity, not mass intelligence.” Jung comments, “Stupidity is the extraordinary power and Mark Twain saw it.”[18] Not just stupefied by fear (where people react based on unconscious conditioning, instead of consciously responding out of their own volition), people who have fallen under groupthink have become, to coin a new word, “stupidified” by fear—been made stupid. Fear, it should be remembered, is the most powerful superfood for wetiko that there is.

Jung emphasized that, due to our species’ suggestibility, we all have the potentiality to become taken over by and possessed by the unconscious such that we become stupid and act out—and hence, embody—darker aspects of the collective unconscious that we all share. This insight can open us up to being able to perceive the revelatory nature of what is happening in our world. The darker forces, by subsuming and incorporating people into itself, enlists them into becoming cogs in the wheel of a dehumanizing machine—people so taken over become its unwitting secret agents (their secret being secret even to themselves). In this situation, however, the darkness is becoming potentially transparent, as it is openly showing how it covertly operates.

The darkness in our world—through both individuals, our species as a whole and the systems we have created that structure our society—is itself its own self-revelation. This is to say that the darkness seemingly taking over our world is—in true quantum style, potentially—in service to the light, if and only if it is beheld by the light of conscious human awareness. Everything depends upon whether or not we recognize the light that is being revealed through the darkness. The inner workings of darkness are usually hidden under the cloak of darkness itself, which is why seeing the undercover operations of darkness is such a game-changer. We normally think of illumination as “seeing the light,” but seeing the darkness—in Jung’s famous words, “making the darkness conscious”—is also a form of illumination. This revelation, however, needs our conscious participation in order to unlock its gifts—we can call this a “participatory form of revelation,” as it requires our active and conscious engagement in order to fulfill its revelatory function.

The Courage to Choose Recovery
It takes real courage to snap out of this spell, as there is a built-in counter-incentive to do so. As is well known, it is harder to snap someone out of their bamboozlement than bamboozling them in the first place. This is because it is painful—traumatizing—for someone to realize they’ve been had. It is a shock to realize we’ve been wrong about the very convictions we were so certain about. People don’t like to realize they’ve been fooled, but when you have been taken for all you’re worth, if you want to step onto the road to recovery, there’s no way around realizing to what degree you have given yourself away—it is the necessary first step in getting back to yourself. It is a horrifying but necessary insight to realize our complicity in the very evil that we’ve been thinking we’re fighting against.

Similar to having the strength to leave a cult, it is an extraordinary moment that takes incredible courage when we take off our blinders and snap out of the spell we’ve been under. Instead of seeing through the imagined eyes of others, we start to see through our own eyes, which is to connect with our intrinsic agency and the creative power of the true Self within us. We are then beginning to heal the self-induced blindness of wetiko within ourselves and the world at large. Seeing how the darkness covertly operates within us is the necessary step which empowers us to more effectively deal with the darkness that is wreaking havoc throughout our world.

Footnotes

[1] Jung, Nietzsche’s Zarathustra, Vol. 2, 1350.

[2] Ibid., 1131.

[3] I have written 3 books on wetiko.

[4] Jung, Nietzsche’s Zarathustra, Vol. 2, 1265

[5] Ibid.

[6] Wetiko is a form of psychic blindness.

[7] Jung, Children’s dreams, 373.

[8] Jung, Nietzsche’s Zarathustra, Vol. 1, 758.

[9] Hannah Arendt, Responsibility and Judgment, 111.

[10] One of the chief features of wetiko is accusing other people of doing what you yourself are unconsciously doing.

[11] The counterfeiting spirit mentioned in the Apocryphal texts is none other than wetiko.

[12] Jung, Visions, Vol. 2, 1205.

[13] Though afflicting individuals, wetiko is a collective psychosis that afflicts our species as a whole.

[14] Jung, Visions, Vol. 1, 369

[15] Ibid.

[16] Jung, Nietzsche’s Zarathustra, Vol. 1, 103.

[17] “Bonhoeffer On The Stupidity That Led To Hitler’s Rise,” Intellectual Takeout, April, 2016

[18] Jung, Nietzsche’s Zarathustra, Vol. 2, 1177. "

[muxfolder]

I have a suggestion. Turn off the internet on your mobile phone for couple of days and see if it makes any difference on your facebook/twitter/instagram. It seems to be true they're listening everything you say and this when all of the propaganda shows up. If you talk about politics, 3I/ATLAS, how ****t* people Russians/Chinese are, any politics, you're gonna get a lot of that on your mobile phone. I think it's propaganda, they say it's for advertising purposes only. Just pointing this out.

[shaberon]

Shaberon, Do you have ancestry in the original 13 British colonies in North America?


That's correct.

I'm not qualified for that order of nobility, Sons and Daughters of the American Revolution.

I only have ancestry involved with State militia, and that order is derived from the Continental Army.


So, yes, with respect to America, my views are framed in the Revolutionary era. I have terrible responses on almost everything going forward. I feel we were pushed out of representation and turned into livestock. A long line of farmers told me so. They didn't pick up a gun for Uncle Sam.

[shaberon]

Your distrust of governments and institutions is all-encompassing. It seems you are viewing them as self-serving entities that have perpetuated conflict and inequality over centuries, which is certainly warranted, but you seem to seek only the negative without probing for or acknowledging the positive at any point in your journey.


I just posted two examples of successful governmental ventures.

Is this like the time you told me I equated Judaism to Zionism many times?


I am viewing the British Empire as such a self-serving entity, supported by the Bank of England, 1694.

The United States which we attempted to wrest from their influence, has largely followed the plan of Chatham House.


Beyond that, I am talking mostly about how Oligarchy infects governments, and the vast difference between Roman- and Greek-influenced spheres over the course of history.

I've posted a lot of positive things that may happen to be communists or monarchists, and nothing from a liberal democracy.

The governments of Lebanon and Nepal are useless marshmallow cronies, even though I admire those cultures.

If we really go into detail, there are probably times when one would tend to favor Jewish people versus a western government. It's very intricate, if not delicate. I have no dog in a fight about races or Abrahamic stuff because I simply don't care. But, yes, I have a few more examples of peace, and, the more we look, we will probably decide that war was invented by Sargon. It is, in some sense, manufactured and unnecessary, certainly as Smedley Butler tells us.

[rgray222]

Your distrust of governments and institutions is all-encompassing. It seems you are viewing them as self-serving entities that have perpetuated conflict and inequality over centuries, which is certainly warranted, but you seem to seek only the negative without probing for or acknowledging the positive at any point in your journey.


I just posted two examples of successful governmental ventures.

Is this like the time you told me I equated Judaism to Zionism many times?


I am viewing the British Empire as such a self-serving entity, supported by the Bank of England, 1694.

The United States which we attempted to wrest from their influence, has largely followed the plan of Chatham House.


Beyond that, I am talking mostly about how Oligarchy infects governments, and the vast difference between Roman- and Greek-influenced spheres over the course of history.

I've posted a lot of positive things that may happen to be communists or monarchists, and nothing from a liberal democracy.

The governments of Lebanon and Nepal are useless marshmallow cronies, even though I admire those cultures.

If we really go into detail, there are probably times when one would tend to favor Jewish people versus a western government. It's very intricate, if not delicate. I have no dog in a fight about races or Abrahamic stuff because I simply don't care. But, yes, I have a few more examples of peace, and, the more we look, we will probably decide that war was invented by Sargon. It is, in some sense, manufactured and unnecessary, certainly as Smedley Butler tells us.

No, this comment has nothing to do with equating zionism with Judaism; you have made your views on that exceptionally clear. My comment was meant to highlight that each person has the right to interpret our collective journey in a way that is very personal and meaningful to their own life. We live in the same world and view the same events but yet our interpretation of things is entirely different.

:focus:

[shaberon]

No, this comment has nothing to do with equating zionism with Judaism; you have made your views on that exceptionally clear. My comment was meant to highlight that each person has the right to interpret our collective journey in a way that is very personal and meaningful to their own life. We live in the same world and view the same events but yet our interpretation of things is entirely different.

:focus:

Well.

Yes, I am addressing...seeing the same thing and getting something different from it.

I posted two examples of peace -- which you say is your thesis -- and you have not mentioned one and commented that everything I said was negative.

You posted in another thread that I equate Judaism to Zionism, I asked for an example, and nothing came forward.


Those are showing me you are not analyzing what is actually written on the page. It seems diversive. Prodding me, as an individual, won't accomplish anything; responding to the points is better. We understand that peace is difficult because of different views. We can deal with it in that context, or, of course, give up.

[rgray222]

No, this comment has nothing to do with equating zionism with Judaism; you have made your views on that exceptionally clear. My comment was meant to highlight that each person has the right to interpret our collective journey in a way that is very personal and meaningful to their own life. We live in the same world and view the same events but yet our interpretation of things is entirely different.

:focus:

Well.

Yes, I am addressing...seeing the same thing and getting something different from it.

I posted two examples of peace -- which you say is your thesis -- and you have not mentioned one and commented that everything I said was negative.

You posted in another thread that I equate Judaism to Zionism, I asked for an example, and nothing came forward.


Those are showing me you are not analyzing what is actually written on the page. It seems diversive. Prodding me, as an individual, won't accomplish anything; responding to the points is better. We understand that peace is difficult because of different views. We can deal with it in that context, or, of course, give up.

My apologies if I bothered you. At one time, I believed that conflict and war were necessary. It finally dawned on me that the failure of mankind was entirely of my making.
My aim was not to prod you. My goal was to encourage peace, not conflict. I don't really have the time (it is precious) to rummage through posts to make a point.
I wish you the best

[shaberon]

My goal was to encourage peace, not conflict. I don't really have the time (it is precious) to rummage through posts to make a point.
I wish you the best



I understand, but I don't understand.

That's a bit of lack of interaction with the thread.

Just to reprise the concept, I will unearth a couple ways I may have been victimized by something.

When I was young, it was environmentalism. I might have become uppity if not extreme in forcing those issues. After Big Oil blowing up Iraq, naturally, Al Gore seemed like the peaceful answer with environmental priorities. At that time, no propaganda persuaded me to that message; rather, it was the imputation of repute to the party (Gore and Clinton) as if they were really going to live it out. I got buyer's remorse pretty quick.

More recently, I was actually deceived by something that is on this website.

Why? Because I encountered someone more knowledgeable than me about something which I was relatively ignorant: law.

I am going to assume everyone missed it, because this is not a propaganda that has reared its head again. It may be an extreme form of ultra-conservatism.

The argument was on the meaning and role of Citizen.

The platform being presented was that the great American secret was to refuse citizenship.


It took me a few weeks to learn what was being said, and, I repeated it for a year or more. I noticed people don't like to deal with underlying facts and so nobody was really able to participate.

Further down the road, I started looking at it independently -- i. e., not in terms of Black's Law Dictionary -- and found it to be pure garbage since 1789.

It's actually hilarious if you look into where it comes from ca. 1953.

The modern source I was able to find nested deep inside some virus-infected websites that push ideas of Anna von Reitz and the like; tax evasion type stuff. The idea is that you are downloading all these pdfs of legal forms to do some tax evasion, so hopefully you click on the "secret instructions" where this explanation is found, and I guess they eat your computer and your bank account and so on.

It was able to trick me because of cherry-picking information and excluding a bunch of stuff.

Neither of those shifted my values, it changed what I thought by way of a few false facts -- that politicians live up to their campaign promises, or, a frivolous legal argument was the hidden truth about the whole country.

[T Smith]

This was posted in another thread, but judged it also belongs here:

https://rumble.com/v70xm18-tavistock-your-real-life-is-waiting.-covert-media-chase-hughes-10-27-2025.html
v6yqy34