Are sociopaths human?

[Chicodoodoo]

Are sociopaths to be considered “human”?

For me, at this stage in my personal development, this is the core question. We all know something is wrong with the world. Nature tends towards sustainable equilibrium, but humanity apparently does not. We seem to be on the path of destroying not only ourselves, but an entire world. Who is responsible? The short answer is we all are, but some are more responsible than others. Some say it's the Republicans, while others say it's the Democrats. Still others say liberals, conservatives, corporations, bankers, Zionists, Masons, Bilderbergers, and on and on, all the way up to the mysterious group of 33.

The common foundation among all these “more responsible” parties appears to be sociopathy. This was convincingly presented in the recent book "Political Ponerology” by Lobaczewski . Sociopaths in general are deficient in empathy. As a result, they are destructive of equal human rights – the principle of the Golden Rule is lost on them. They literally take every advantage they can with no regard to morality. They have no shame and feel no responsibility for their actions. Yet despite their selfish nature, they band together and cooperate with great efficiency.

Sociopaths can be considered “deviant” humans. They make up only a small percentage of humanity, maybe 1%, but their domination of the positions of control and power in our civilization is without question. They are steering the bus, and they have quite effectively locked out the vast majority that don't like where the bus is going.

Typically, the non-sociopathic majority view sociopaths as criminal. In general, society “removes” criminals. This is not possible when criminals “rule”, writing the laws and controlling the enforcement of those laws. Criminal sociopaths rule over the majority by secrecy and deception (using money as a tool to buy our cooperation), where truth AND lies are used as necessary to maintain control. It is no coincidence that in times like these, the controlled majority become obsessed with separating fact from fiction, while the sociopaths are equally committed to maximum obfuscation.

An argument can be made that there is no “good” or “evil” with respect to sociopaths. They may simply be part of the balance of nature, and humanity is simply suffering from a temporary imbalance of excessive sociopathic control. I would argue that this situation appears to be an inherent flaw, that it keeps happening, and that the final results are typically catastrophic and far-reaching.

Currently, we have an interesting situation where a former “enforcer” of the sociopathic side (“Charles”) has apparently switched sides and is interacting with the non-sociopathic community of Project Avalon. There is much debate as to whether such a thing is plausible, or if it is just another cunning sociopathic ploy of obfuscation. Given this situation, I think my question is pertinent.

What do we do about the problem of sociopaths, or is it not a problem? If it is a problem, is it the root problem?

[giovonni]

Thank you for this post. Yes i have ponder this question often myself over the years...a conditional factor is usually (by western medicine) diagnosed as an individual with neurological abnormalities that cause an inability to maintain a "normal' social intercourse with others. A second factor believed to be partially responsible for the sociopath disorder, is probably due to the primary socialization of individuals within dysfunctional environments, such as abusive, poorly educated, or poverty stricken homes. This condition usually only affects males (3%); the condition is uncommon in women, but (due to the very stressful and harsh conditions that western society has propelled upon them) this appears to be quickly changing. Saying that...and knowing what i learned and have come to believe, it all relates to the very core of what this forum is about. We have (as human-beings) been duped into giving up and allowing ourselves to be controlled and manipulated by a very sinister power source. It is quite possible that those labeled with psychiatric disorders whether born or developed (are/were) quite normal and are only revolting (within their minds) against the so-called (insane) accepted conditions and norms of this current world society? Note, there is so much more here to discuss... but i will yield to fellow members to expand upon this subject matter...while i ponder some more. :tinfoil3:

[lightblue]

.
wonder if mad (dysfunctional) people are mad because they are evil, or are they evil because they are mad.. l

.

[grannyfranny100]

Are sociopaths human?

I don't know if they have souls. They are usually bright and can pick up on the behaviors they should exhibit to project the artifice of morals, compassion, empathy, etc. that they do not feel. They can be quite charming to con others and so they are often hard to spot. But nowadays, they do seem to rise to positions of elite power. And some of the rituals attributed to the PTB seem to create more and more of these pathological types.

Tread carefully if you suspect you know any. They are dangerous and definitely not trustworthy. Idealistic attempts to love them do not work to accomplish change nor does psychotherapy even if the therapist is sharp enough to come to the right diagnosis.

Granny Franny

[witchy1]

A question I too have pondered..... I dont have the answer. I simply cannot beleive that they are born that way.

Is this the nature / nuture debate again - perhaps.

Do we then make them through their upbringing? I have read that many have had head injuries.

Sadly I think that yes - they are human. They walk to a different tune.

Redeemable - I dont think so.


Currently, we have an interesting situation where a former “enforcer” of the sociopathic side (“Charles”) has apparently switched sides and is interacting with the non-sociopathic community of Project Avalon

I did not read the original post enough. Is this another bag Charles thread, this time veiled with what appears a reasonable question? If so, I am not best pleased.

Nothing has been proven or disproven. Your point above is personal opinion only and pure conjecture unless you have irrefutable proof and verifiable evidence. Please provide it, many here would like to read it.

[shijo]

Thank you for this post. Yes i have ponder this question often myself over the years...a conditional factor is usually (by western medicine) diagnosed as an individual with neurological abnormalities that cause an inability to maintain a "normal' social intercourse with others. A second factor believed to be partially responsible for the sociopath disorder, is probably due to the primary socialization of individuals within dysfunctional environments, such as abusive, poorly educated, or poverty stricken homes. This condition usually only affects males (3%); the condition is uncommon in women, but (due to the very stressful and harsh conditions that western society has propelled upon them) this appears to be quickly changing. Saying that...and knowing what i learned and have come to believe, it all relates to the very core of what this forum is about. We have (as human-beings) been duped into giving up and allowing ourselves to be controlled and manipulated by a very sinister power source. It is quite possible that those labeled with psychiatric disorders whether born or developed (are/were) quite normal and are only revolting (within their minds) against the so-called (insane) accepted conditions and norms of this current world society? Note, there is so much more here to discuss... but i will yield to fellow members to expand upon this subject matter...while i ponder some more. :tinfoil3:

Thanks for the post,R.D. Laing echoed your last paragraph way back,im gonna ponder some more too.

[shijo]

Are sociopaths to be considered “human”?

For me, at this stage in my personal development, this is the core question. We all know something is wrong with the world. Nature tends towards sustainable equilibrium, but humanity apparently does not. We seem to be on the path of destroying not only ourselves, but an entire world. Who is responsible? The short answer is we all are, but some are more responsible than others. Some say it's the Republicans, while others say it's the Democrats. Still others say liberals, conservatives, corporations, bankers, Zionists, Masons, Bilderbergers, and on and on, all the way up to the mysterious group of 33.

The common foundation among all these “more responsible” parties appears to be sociopathy. This was convincingly presented in the recent book "Political Ponerology” by Lobaczewski . Sociopaths in general are deficient in empathy. As a result, they are destructive of equal human rights – the principle of the Golden Rule is lost on them. They literally take every advantage they can with no regard to morality. They have no shame and feel no responsibility for their actions. Yet despite their selfish nature, they band together and cooperate with great efficiency.

Sociopaths can be considered “deviant” humans. They make up only a small percentage of humanity, maybe 1%, but their domination of the positions of control and power in our civilization is without question. They are steering the bus, and they have quite effectively locked out the vast majority that don't like where the bus is going.

Typically, the non-sociopathic majority view sociopaths as criminal. In general, society “removes” criminals. This is not possible when criminals “rule”, writing the laws and controlling the enforcement of those laws. Criminal sociopaths rule over the majority by secrecy and deception (using money as a tool to buy our cooperation), where truth AND lies are used as necessary to maintain control. It is no coincidence that in times like these, the controlled majority become obsessed with separating fact from fiction, while the sociopaths are equally committed to maximum obfuscation.

An argument can be made that there is no “good” or “evil” with respect to sociopaths. They may simply be part of the balance of nature, and humanity is simply suffering from a temporary imbalance of excessive sociopathic control. I would argue that this situation appears to be an inherent flaw, that it keeps happening, and that the final results are typically catastrophic and far-reaching.

Currently, we have an interesting situation where a former “enforcer” of the sociopathic side (“Charles”) has apparently switched sides and is interacting with the non-sociopathic community of Project Avalon. There is much debate as to whether such a thing is plausible, or if it is just another cunning sociopathic ploy of obfuscation. Given this situation, I think my question is pertinent.

What do we do about the problem of sociopaths, or is it not a problem? If it is a problem, is it the root problem?

thankyou for this,Jung in a remarkable little book called the Undiscovered Self thought that there were up to ten per cent of the population manifesting sociopathic tendencies,i suppose the horrors of the second world war were still uppermost in his mind,so hopefully the figure has reduced.He said basically they have great charisma because somehow they know the gameplan and how to operate within it,pretty good foresight that.As for your other points have to think on them.

[SteveX]

"Sociopath" isn't a one word fits all. Not to say they haven't existed and held dictatorial rolls. In our western so called democracies it's harder for one man to excerpt over all control. To have their way totally. Some of it rests on the machine mankind has created. By machine I’m referring to systems like government, banking, stocks and shares, oil, grain and so on. There is a drive to perform. Humans with their propensity to yield to their self-indulgencies set up systems, which are self-perpetuating. Once these systems, these machines are up and running god help us when a sociopath gets overall control.

I need to scream money grabbing NEO CONS for some reason.

For me it looks like this ...mans desire = self-indulgencies=the machine=mans desire fulfilled. When you ad the sociopath there's the blind eye syndrome because our desires are meeting maximum fruition....i.e screw the third world woman making those shoes because you just earned a mega Yield off so and so shares.

Excuse my poor explanation but one word does not fit all. However, every child is a sociopath until the values of right and wrong are INGRAINED.

[Isostool]

mmmmm. I consider myself to be an empathic sociopath of sorts. I have spent years integrating the two mind sets into a functional form.... damn I have to run to work now. I want to stay home and read the forum all day. I will try to compose some kind of post on it for later. :)

edit: It can be achieved through darklight reunification at the core so it is all expressed at once in real time - the energetic bodies are NOT seperate.

[str8thinker]

Two possible causes for people being sociopaths without invoking reptilian bloodlines:

1) Nature: Some genetic deficiency in brain development that makes it difficult for them to feel emotions?
2) Nurture: Lack of social integration enabling them to respect others.

Sociopathy may be due to a combination of the two acting together, one reinforcing the effects of the other. Naturally this is a very difficult area to investigate.

The only thing that sociopaths are interested in is their own survival, whereas the rest of us are conditioned to live by the golden rule "do unto others...". It is interesting to speculate which behaviour offers the greatest chance of survival, since this will determine the future psychological makeup of the human race.

[SteveX]

Two possible causes for people being sociopaths without invoking reptilian bloodlines:

1) Nature: Some genetic deficiency in brain development that makes it difficult for them to feel emotions?
2) Nurture: Lack of social integration enabling them to respect others.

Sociopathy may be due to a combination of the two acting together, one reinforcing the effects of the other. Naturally this is a very difficult area to investigate.

The only thing that sociopaths are interested in is their own survival, whereas the rest of us are conditioned to live by the golden rule "do unto others...". It is interesting to speculate which behaviour offers the greatest chance of survival, since this will determine the future psychological makeup of the human race.

Two good points but I think the majority fall into point 2. As for survival every type will. Its not an us and them or a they and others. Its the whole in the drag net that some of each type will get through.

[Whitehaze]

Yes sociopaths are human. They are a specific type of human being with specific qualities. They are no less human than anyone else, they just live by a different set of rules. There are many causes that can bring this condition about. It can be genetic passed down through generations. It can be envirornment, history of family abuse etc. In some cases it can be physical, possible neurological abnormalities in the frontal lobe of the brain. The latter is something I do know about as I do have abnormalities in the left temporal lobe. And many of the traits of a exhibited in a sociopath are many I displayed when I was younger. I knew I was different, I knew I did things that were wrong as it were. I knew people were hurt by my actions, but it did not matter. What mattered was me and what I was trying to accomplish. Many many years this was the way my life was until a single event altered my view. I thought I was untouchable in a sense, nothing could hurt me, nobody could do anything to dent my personal armor. Then when the event occurred, it was probably the most painful thing physically, emotionally and spiritually that any human could endure. It was at that moment that I saw myself for who and what I was. That was my moment of change and awakening to myself. Did everything just go away? No it did not. Its been well over 20 years since the event and I still recognize certain traits within myself that I constantly correct.

So regarding if it is possible for Charles to have a change of heart and reverse his thinking, absolutely it is. It is a choice that comes from within as it is with anything. You can live on this side of the line or you can live on the other side. When I first saw the interview with Charles, i was almost immediately angry. At first I thought it was because of the content and attitude displayed. After a few days it became clear to me that I was angry at myself, all those traits and qualities were right there in front of me. That is who I was, or similar in attitude and thinking. This is a huge step for someone like Charles, bigger than anyone can imagine. His struggle might be greater than your struggle whether to believe he can have a change of heart or not. Nobody can know the heart of another or what is in it. My personal intuition says to listen to Charles and what he has to say and understand he has personal struggles.

[Flash]

Here are 2 good articles on sociopaths. Following the description, I sometimes think that the 33 were behaving as sociopath, wanting to destroy a good part of the population and emotions or suffering being unimportant, it seems, at first glance. I had suggested in one post to chemspray them with oxytocin, the "love and attachment hormone" just to realise now that it would not be efficient anyhow (see below).

And yes, to me, sociopath have been on the podium in this capitalist profit driven society and they do not understand the harm being inflicted, in fact they do not care. Anytime I think I am around a sociopath, off and away I go! As long as I can! However, I find this topic exceedingly interesting because I am convince that they are more prevalent (in view of their little number) on the top of the social-financial hierarchy as well as in higher management. An go tell someone he is lacking something in his brain or biology - they don't know, they can't feel it.

However, to follow on Chicodoodoo post, as follows
Currently, we have an interesting situation where a former “enforcer” of the sociopathic side (“Charles”) has apparently switched sides and is interacting with the non-sociopathic community of Project Avalon. There is much debate as to whether such a thing is plausible, or if it is just another cunning sociopathic ploy of obfuscation. Given this situation, I think my question is pertinent.

I think that although some previous behaviors of Charles may have been sociopathics, it does not fit the entire profile. Why, he cares for his 2 African brothers, he cares for his master, he wanted to be good. But you, and all of us, will be the judge with time.

Here are part of the content of the articles.

"WHEN YOU SAY THE WORD "sociopath" most people think of serial killers. But although many serial killers are sociopaths, there are far more sociopaths leading ordinary lives. Chances are you know a sociopath. I say "ordinary lives," but what they do is far from ordinary. Sociopaths are people without a conscience. They don't have the normal empathy the rest of us take for granted. They don't feel affection. They don't care about others. But most of them are good observers, and they have learned how to mimic feelings of affection and empathy remarkably well."

"Most people with a conscience find it very difficult to even imagine what it would be like to be without one. Combine this with a sociopath's efforts to blend in, and the result is that most sociopaths go undetected."

But researchers have found that the brains of sociopaths function differently than normal people. And their brains function in a way that makes their emotional life unredeemably shallow. And yet they are capable of mimicking emotions like professional actors. .........

HOW COMMON ARE THEY?

Some researchers say only about one percent of the general population are sociopaths. Others put the figure at three or four percent.

But clearly sociopaths are fairly common and not easy to detect. ..

I like Martha Stout's way of detecting sociopaths: "If ... you find yourself often pitying someone who consistently hurts you or other people, and who actively campaigns for your sympathy, the chances are close to one hundred percent that you are dealing with a sociopath."

WHAT DO THEY WANT?

The answer is chilling: They want to win. Take away love and relationships and all you have left is winning the game, whatever the game is. ... And he (or she) is willing to do anything at all to win.

.....And here I might mention that the research shows sociopaths don't feel emotions the same way normal people do. For example, they don't experience fear as unpleasant.

HOW TO DEAL WITH A SOCIOPATH

There is no known cure or therapy for sociopathy. In fact, some evidence suggests that therapy makes them worse because they use it to learn more about human vulnerabilities they can then exploit. They learn how to manipulate better and they learn better excuses that others will believe. They don't usually seek therapy, unless there is something to gain from it.

Given all that, there is only one solution for dealing with a sociopath: Get him or her completely out of your life for good.

1. They make you feel sorry for them. 2. They make you feel worried or afraid. 3. They give you the impression you owe them. 4. They make you feel used. 5. Sometimes you suspect they don't care about you. 6. They lie to you and deceive you. 7. They take a lot from you and give back very little. 8. They make you feel guilty (and use that to manipulate you). 9. They take advantage of your kindness.
10. They are easily bored and need constant stimulation. 11. They don't take responsibility, but place blame elsewhere.

Update:

I've been reading and writing about oxytocin lately (see the article, Peace, Love, and Oxytocin) and came across an interesting experiment. Paul Zak, one of the primary researchers in the field, found that when you give someone a dose of oxytocin, they tend to become more generous.

"Interestingly," wrote Joyce Gramza, "Zak found that oxytocin had no effect on two percent of the participants and that these students fit the personality profile of sociopaths."

Oxytocin is a naturally-produced hormone that creates feelings of closeness, comfort, relaxation, empathy for others, and trust.

http://www.youmeworks.com/sociopaths.html



and this http://www.findlaci2003.us/sociopath.html

"One of the primary causes of sociopathic behavior is believed to be neurological abnormalities mainly in the frontal lobe of the brain.

This area of the brain is responsible for "self-control, planning, judgment, the balance of individual versus social needs, and many other essential functions underlying effective social intercourse".

This area is also related to fear conditioning. The abnormal anatomy or chemical activity within this area of the brain may be caused by abnormal growth (possibly genetic), brain disease, or injury. This theory has been supported by much research using positron emission tomography (PET) which visually shows the metabolic activity of neurons within the brain.

A second factor believed to be partially responsible for the sociopathic disorder in some cases is the primary socialization of individuals within dysfunctional environments, such as abusive, poorly educated, or poverty stricken homes"

[Sol Va]

Are sociopaths to be considered “human”?
- Depends what you mean by human.


Who is responsible? The short answer is we all are, but some are more responsible than others.
- Some are WAY more at cause of the damage in the world. They are the sociopaths.
The ones who have little or no consciences.

Sociopaths in general are deficient in empathy.
-Yes they are. So are narcissists.
-But the sociopath has NO CONSCIENCE.

the principle of the Golden Rule is lost on them.
- Right. Since they do not feel empathy, then no one else is really REAL to them.
- So there is no one in their world to consider... to consider others
needs or rights. No one to act golden towards, or not.

They have no shame and feel no responsibility for their actions.
Yet despite their selfish nature, they band together and cooperate with great efficiency.
- Some sociopaths cooperate because their sickness feeds each others sense of entitlement, superiority and hatred.
Others do not cooperate because they are total control freaks and can't relinquish any power.

They make up only a small percentage of humanity, maybe 1%,
- This is debatable. Their numbers might be higher.

Their domination of the positions of control and power in our civilization is without question.
-Absolutely.

Typically, the non-sociopathic majority view sociopaths as criminal. In general, society “removes” criminals. This is not possible when criminals “rule”, writing the laws and controlling the enforcement of those laws.
- Many or even perhaps MOST sociopaths never get caught at their crimes, betrayals and the damage they do. They are excellent at hiding. Putting on the nice act.

An argument can be made that there is no “good” or “evil” with respect to sociopaths.
- I don't think it matters whether they are just chemically or brain deficient, or whether
they have choice and are evil. What matters is that their actions are destroying the planet
and if they can be stopped. This would be to our benefit.

They may simply be part of the balance of nature.
- I personally don't think so.

and humanity is simply suffering from a temporary imbalance of excessive sociopathic control.
- the written history that we have access to points to sociopaths having a lot of control for ages.
Now, they have techonogical tools to hide behind so they are arguably more destructive.

I would argue that this situation appears to be an inherent flaw, that it keeps happening, and that the final results are typically catastrophic and far-reaching.
- It could be that there will always be human beings born without consciences. It would behoove all of us to learn to
identify them as children and either help HEAL or Recondition them, or separate them and prevent them from getting
power.

Currently, we have an interesting situation where a former “enforcer” of the sociopathic side (“Charles”) has apparently switched sides and is interacting with the non-sociopathic community of Project Avalon.
- Sociopaths don't change, at least I have never known one to change. They are exceptionally hard to treat in therapy.
I would bet that Charles is either:
Not a sociopath himself but got some satisfaction out of exercising his talents, and now with his days numbered is
considering acting in a more ethical fashion.
or
A sociopath who is using us to get back at the other 33 who maybe didn't treat him all so well. Or some other reason.
(not necessarily to do us harm, sociopaths dont harm everyone in their lives, there are usually specific targets for them)

What do we do about the problem of sociopaths, or is it not a problem? If it is a problem, is it the root problem?
This is the million dollar question. Our lives and the planet depends on the answer.

My answer. Take away their power. Immediately. Protect their victims.

[norman]

Are they human?..... ( is that the 'ruling madmen', you mean?)

Yes they are at least partly human.

BUT,

They are already extinct in the wild, and only survive in sheltered captivity. So, it won't be long before we won't even have to bother ourselves with such a question.

[deSelbyst]

Interesting take.

I have personal experience of sociopathy behaviour and am well aware of the destructive nature of this beast. A world where truth has no value, a world where control has to be assumed but responsibility is to shunned, a world where morals are seen as something to be taken advantage of, a world where others are only a means to an end, a world of utter disconnect.

With out detail a little background might prove interesting. One of these individuals was a product of their upbringing, they were the master of their house from the moment they were born, little empathey show toward and no need for empathey in order to aquire what they wanted. Their behaviour seemed to be more a product of their enviroment and circumstance. The other is alone in their behaviour amoungst their family, none of the siblings or parents seemingly the same. It seems more like an afliction in their case than the conditioned behaviour of above. Nuture/nature, baffeling enough on it's own, now with added alien dimension thrown in for good mesure.............pop. (My brain exploding!)


I'm not drawing any conclusion on how this does or doesn't tie in with sociopath/alien question because I quite frankly don't have a clue. I just thought my experiences might add a little to the discussion.

[Steven]

Are sociopaths to be considered “human”?

First, awesome thread! Thanks Chicodoodoo :)

Second, how about a gene?

The hypothesis: Compassion is genetic, lack of it could make sociopath.

Have a read: http://greatergood.berkeley.edu/article/item/the_compassionate_instinct/

Namaste, Steven

[Sol Va]

However, every child is a sociopath until the values of right and wrong are INGRAINED.

If one points out the effect of a child's actions, and say, that action is to blow someone's toes off, (take firecrackers as an example), then I wager that most children would not enjoy doing this, (even if they were never told it was wrong).

A sociopathic child would.

I tend to not believe in the lie of original sin, which I think is what the elites have tried to instill in the rest of us, so
that we will never trust ourselves. They want us to doubts human beings in general, and ourselves, so that their hatred and
destructiveness will seem "normal" and they can hide among us easier.

[Sol Va]

Dear Whitehaze,
Thankyou so much for sharing your personal transformation regarding your conscience. I would very much like to know what was the event or realization that spurred you to transform.... at what age did it occur? If you could give all the people in this world without consciences your experience or something strong enough similar, and they all transformed, it would be the MOST important occurence in human society EVER. So please try to figure out exactly what it was that enlighted you, or birthed your new caring self. I applaud you with all my heart.


Yes sociopaths are human. They are a specific type of human being with specific qualities. They are no less human than anyone else, they just live by a different set of rules. There are many causes that can bring this condition about. It can be genetic passed down through generations. It can be envirornment, history of family abuse etc. In some cases it can be physical, possible neurological abnormalities in the frontal lobe of the brain. The latter is something I do know about as I do have abnormalities in the left temporal lobe. And many of the traits of a exhibited in a sociopath are many I displayed when I was younger. I knew I was different, I knew I did things that were wrong as it were. I knew people were hurt by my actions, but it did not matter. What mattered was me and what I was trying to accomplish. Many many years this was the way my life was until a single event altered my view. I thought I was untouchable in a sense, nothing could hurt me, nobody could do anything to dent my personal armor. Then when the event occurred, it was probably the most painful thing physically, emotionally and spiritually that any human could endure. It was at that moment that I saw myself for who and what I was. That was my moment of change and awakening to myself. Did everything just go away? No it did not. Its been well over 20 years since the event and I still recognize certain traits within myself that I constantly correct.

So regarding if it is possible for Charles to have a change of heart and reverse his thinking, absolutely it is. It is a choice that comes from within as it is with anything. You can live on this side of the line or you can live on the other side. When I first saw the interview with Charles, i was almost immediately angry. At first I thought it was because of the content and attitude displayed. After a few days it became clear to me that I was angry at myself, all those traits and qualities were right there in front of me. That is who I was, or similar in attitude and thinking. This is a huge step for someone like Charles, bigger than anyone can imagine. His struggle might be greater than your struggle whether to believe he can have a change of heart or not. Nobody can know the heart of another or what is in it. My personal intuition says to listen to Charles and what he has to say and understand he has personal struggles.

[Carmody]

If one points out the effect of a child's actions, and say, that action is to blow someone's toes off, (take firecrackers as an example), then I wager that most children would not enjoy doing this, (even if they were never told it was wrong).

A sociopathic child would.

I tend to not believe in the lie of original sin, which I think is what the elites have tried to instill in the rest of us, so
that we will never trust ourselves. They want us to doubts human beings in general, and ourselves, so that their hatred and
destructiveness will seem "normal" and they can hide among us easier.

One thing is interesting, is that when some kids are growing up, they experiment with their new found emotional largess (permissions to be their own person). And they commit small acts, themselves or in their social circle, as they explore the limits of what is acceptable in them (to themselves) and that which surrounds them.

This is quite the critical time in a child's life. preteen to early teen range is pretty common for this behavioral exploration.

[SteveX]

If one points out the effect of a child's actions, and say, that action is to blow someone's toes off, (take firecrackers as an example), then I wager that most children would not enjoy doing this, (even if they were never told it was wrong).

A sociopathic child would.

This statement takes my quote out of context. The average child wouldn't think of blowing toes off with fireworks. The average child would fight hard for a toy, for certain food, for the affections of the mother over their brother, sisters or friends. All of which could be expressed in the phrase "I want" How many time have you heard that?...a form of self indulgance in line with the rest of my post.

[Sol Va]

The average child/adult feels, "I want"
The narcissist child/adult feels, "I want it all in every moment of every day"
The sociopath child feels, "My thrill is in power and hurting others."

I hope this is more clear. I didnt intend to quote you out of context. (sorry)


This statement takes my quote out of context. The average child wouldn't think of blowing toes off with fireworks. The average child would fight hard for a toy, for certain food, for the affections of the mother over their brother, sisters or friends. All of which could be expressed in the phrase "I want" How many time have you heard that?...a form of self indulgance in line with the rest of my post.

[Flash]

One thing is interesting, is that when some kids are growing up, they experiment with their new found emotional largess (permissions to be their own person). And they commit small acts, themselves or in their social circle, as they explore the limits of what is acceptable in them (to themselves) and that which surrounds them.

This is quite the critical time in a child's life. preteen to early teen range is pretty common for this behavioral exploration.


I am sorry Carmody, but the difference between experimenting with new found emotional largess, hurting people or animals to see how one would feel (the other as well as oneself), or to see how far one can go wiwthout getting caught, and actually feeling nothing from injuring others, or may be even feeling thrill, the difference is actually huge.

The first one will learn about emotions and potentially empathy, the latter won't. Empathy develops very early in life and is usually acquired by 5. When working with children, it is easier to spot those who do not have empathy and they are very few.

I think there is something wrong with these people, as much as there is with other neulological disorders. The difference is that sociopathy is not easily detected and is often, when not criminally caught, rewarded in this society (great perceived gains). Therefore, a cure is never looked for as it could be for other disorders. And they are truly destructive for ordinary folks.

However, I also think that some managers or CEO behave sociopathically but are not inherently sociopath, they are just surrounded by some of them and/or respond to the way society is organised. IMHO.

[ponda]

Chicodoodoo said
What do we do about the problem of sociopaths, or is it not a problem?

I suspect that nature will sort things out.It might just be a temporary problem.


Chicodoodoo said
If it is a problem, is it the root problem?



Yes i believe it is and has been a problem.

What caused it?

Possible et dna/bloodline manipulation for control purposes.

[InTheBackground]

For years I had an in joke that I made with fellow co-workers, that some sociopaths are known by society because they cross that line from acceptable, normal behavior and reveal themselves to be what they are and always have been.

The rest? They go into business management and politics.

(ba dump bump)

Sadly, I realized later that I had been right all along...

Are they human? They are in a human body, but the soul...? Once I got a better handle on my abilities, I realized what had bothered me all along.... I don't feel much "humanity" in them. I don't know whether that means they are soulless, or if it means they have some sort of ET bloodline, or a walk-in, or an attachment, or if there is another esoteric cause altogether. I just know what I feel and what I don't see in their eyes and in their behavior.

[Whitehaze]

Dear Whitehaze,
Thankyou so much for sharing your personal transformation regarding your conscience. I would very much like to know what was the event or realization that spurred you to transform.... at what age did it occur? If you could give all the people in this world without consciences your experience or something strong enough similar, and they all transformed, it would be the MOST important occurence in human society EVER. So please try to figure out exactly what it was that enlighted you, or birthed your new caring self. I applaud you with all my heart.

It is difficult to talk about, but I will attempt to put it into words. I was 27 years old and at the peak of living on the edge, a razor sharp edge. I made an error in judgement with someone close to me, and it nearly cost me my life. The person in question was someone I trusted with everything. The act of betrayal was none like I had ever seen or experienceed before. I literally looked death in the eyes and chose to be different in that moment. It wasnt that I was afraid of death, because I am not. I just saw something when I was in that state, I saw my self very closely is the best way to describe it. And I didnt like what I saw. Nothing really magical about it and I dont think it would help the rest of the sociopath population. But when it comes right down to it, its all about choice and having the strength to stand behind a choice. How strong a persons will is going to play a big part in if they can change. They have to want to. All I can really add to it for me is, I was no longer willing to destroy.

[Sol Va]

ThankYou so much Whitehaze, Your explanation is very helpful. I understand that moment of choice for I have seen it happen in some sociopaths.. the moment when they decided to act to destroy. I have never seen that decision reversed.
I am so thankful you are sharing this.

¤=[Post Update]=¤


. But when it comes right down to it, its all about choice and having the strength to stand behind a choice. How strong a persons will is going to play a big part in if they can change. They have to want to. All I can really add to it for me is, I was no longer willing to destroy.

This almost sounds like the decision to give up an addiction. Addicts use those same words."you have to want it".

[Carmody]

I am sorry Carmody, but the difference between experimenting with new found emotional largess, hurting people or animals to see how one would feel (the other as well as oneself), or to see how far one can go wiwthout getting caught, and actually feeling nothing from injuring others, or may be even feeling thrill, the difference is actually huge.

The first one will learn about emotions and potentially empathy, the latter won't. Empathy develops very early in life and is usually acquired by 5. When working with children, it is easier to spot those who do not have empathy and they are very few.

I think there is something wrong with these people, as much as there is with other neulological disorders. The difference is that sociopathy is not easily detected and is often, when not criminally caught, rewarded in this society (great perceived gains). Therefore, a cure is never looked for as it could be for other disorders. And they are truly destructive for ordinary folks.

However, I also think that some managers or CEO behave sociopathically but are not inherently sociopath, they are just surrounded by some of them and/or respond to the way society is organised. IMHO.


Pardon me. My statement/contribution is incomplete. We all work with our given life experiences.

As a child, this is one of the first points that I came across that allowed me to understand how to separate the wheat from the chaff, so to speak.

You could see the sociopath outed via the furthering and continuance, and the explorative child back off from their own dipping into excesses.

Before the child, in the social sense, in some ways..separates themselves from the parent, this aspect can be harder to spot. The larger social integration can show their weakness in social empathy issues -as being poorly navigated as they are entire unknowns so they cannot yet hide it.. They are learning the ropes of their soon to come 'greater social facade'.

[Whitehaze]

In a sense it was surrounded by addiction. the nature of being that way wasnt addictive. That was just natural, it was the thought process.


I would also like to add that 20 years later I am a likeable guy, friendly and out going....enjoys long walks on the beach rofl. History........looking back on ones own is uncomfortable at times.

[giovonni]

i like to thank Charles ~ for making this discussion possible, this is good very good, indeed!

Note, if a human was born with this genetic disorder or (even) later suffered a head injury, causing this disorder, another aspect that brings out the worst of this behavior is fear and in specific > fear conditioning. This might explain why some can usually go so long unnoticed (living in a nurturing environment), while others living in a hellish existence tend to explode (upon) within society.

[BrianEn]

Sociopaths are human but they lack certain traits that make them humane. They often seek positions that give them power over people where can unleash their traits and seem like they are just doing their jobs. I've had a couple of people in my life where I deemed them to be sociopaths. They are always looking for that edge over you. They have to win at all costs.

1. Do you often feel used by the person?

2. Have you often felt that he (or she) doesn’t care about you?

3. Does he lie and deceive you?

4. Does he tend to make contradictory statements?

5. Does he tend to take from you and not give back much?

6. Does he often appeal to pity? Does he seem to try to make you feel sorry for him?

7. Does he try to make you feel guilty?

8. Do you sometimes feel he is taking advantage of your good nature?

9. Does he seem easily bored and need constant stimulation?

10. Does he use a lot of flattery? Does he interact with you in a way that makes you feel flattered even if he says nothing overtly complimentary?

11. Does he make you feel worried? Does he do it obviously or more cleverly and sneakily?

12. Does he give you the impression you owe him?

13. Does he chronically fail to take responsibility for harming others? Does he blame everyone and everything but himself?

Questions copied and pasted from:

http://www.intent.com/johnmarshallroberts/blog/your-boss-sociopath-13-questions

These questions are good for anyone in your life.

[Flash]

ba dump bump[/I])

Very funny, allow me to use your quote with some colleagues. TKs

[andywight]

If it is the root problem then how would it possible to identify these sociopaths? I have the misfortune to know one personally and believe me their harder to spot than you think.

[Sol Va]

The difference between a Narcissist and a Sociopath.
(I recall finding this very humorous the first time I read it...
it really did clarify for me who was who LOL)

taken from the web...

Narcissist wolf says to everyone:
"I'm a sheep, I'm a sheep, I'm in the sheep club. The sheep are the best. Those wolves are terrible. You have to be a special sheep to be in the high-wool club like me. If you don't believe I'm a sheep then you are calling me a liar. I was only eating meat because my boss made me do it. I was howling at the moon because you made me angry. I have always been a sheep. You are paranoid, I don't have canine teeth. You are imagining it. I'm a sheep. I won best sheep of the year award. We have to be on the look out for SueTarget. She's a wolf in sheeps' clothing. I am the one that did all the work. SueTarget messed it all up. SueTargets's fur looks fake. I'm the biggest sheep so I should be the boss. I have every right to punish SueTarget and eat her. It will be good for her, and teach her a lesson. I'm not doing it for me, I'm doing it for the team. I have to be the enforcer here and eat bad sheeps to help keep society clean. I used to be a vegetarian but because all these lazy sheep won't do anything, I am forced into keeping order and forced into being the bad guy and have to do all the eating of sheep."

Sociopath wolf says:
"Become the sheep. Believe you are the sheep. Keep the wolf hidden. Don't act like a narcissist and don't try to "talk your way". Become the sheep. Do sheep things. Behave like sheep. No one will see the wolf. Baa baa baa. Eat grass for a while. Give up meat for a while. Tell the sheep things that will make them feel good about themselves. Gain their trust. Be humble. Make them the center of attention. Get them to lower their defenses. Tell them you lost your teeth in a car accident and your parents could only afford wolf-teeth replacements. Keep past a secret so they don't research. Let them do all the talking. Then when the time is right, devour! It is worth the sacrifice and the wait. Then on a polygraph when they ask if I am a sheep, I will have all the sheep memories because I became a sheep. I have memories of eating grass and living like a sheep. I'm telling the truth."

[sygh]

Sociopathic tendencies in politicians has been a study in psycology for a while now. It has been hypothisized that one has to be a sociopath, or at least have some sociopathic tendencies, in order to rise to that level of control. I don't know, we've taken science at face value for so many years. It's amazing what gets passed off as art these days too.

[Flash]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iZ1P7NjY4hA&feature=fvsr

You could see the sociopath outed via the furthering and continuance, and the explorative child back off from their own dipping into excesses.

Before the child, in the social sense, in some ways..separates themselves from the parent, this aspect can be harder to spot. The larger social integration can show their weakness in social empathy issues -as being poorly navigated as they are entire unknowns so they cannot yet hide it.. They are learning the ropes of their soon to come 'greater social facade'.

Thank you for your completion Carmody. Allow me to show you a video about mirror neurons (discovered in the early years of this century) in French. I do think you can understant it (your Toronto cartoon on another post make me believe this).

For the non French, here are the cues for observation:

minute 2.31: The author start talking about neuron mirrors, observe the monkey who's brain lit up when given a peanut, and who's brain lit up when looking at a researcher taking a peanut, same neurons lighting up = mirror neurons discovered. I do same as I see being done : my brain mirror neurons lit up.

minute 3.12 - 4.27 Empathy: the subject observe emotions in others and her face muscle slightly contract as is she were reenacting the same movements related to the emotion (check the face electrodes). The limbic system where emotions are located is stimulated. Not only the muscle move but later you will see that the region in the brain corresponding to the said emotion is lighting up as well. There is also imitation amongst children.

minute 4.55 ABSOLUTELY CUTE - MUST SEE: a child bite a lemon and the other children are making grimaces, living the impact of lemon in their own mouth. Empathy is being played out, mirror neuron activated.

minute 5.35: linking mirror neurons with pathologies: the researcher says that deficiency in mirror neurons may be related to some forms of autism.

My guess, sociopath are lacking in mirror neurons for most of them (Whitehaze you are an exception, you already had them cause they would not have grown overnight unless God...) coupled with a problem in another brain area in the frontal lobes that is responsible to shut down the reptilian (where are we?? Avalon?? David Icke's forum???) brain (yes one part of our brain carry this name!!). The reptilian brain is responsible for automatic reaction of fear, flight, attack, etc. Few cell in the frontal lobe are a switch off for the reptilian brain if his reactions are not convenient for the situation. People lacking that switch off because of car accident for example or brain tumor are extremely dangerous. Sociopath while being able to control may be somewhat affected in that region as well.

Well, enjoy, observe and mostly look at the children at 4.55 minute.
Thanks
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iZ1P7NjY4hA&feature=fvsr

[sygh]

In my experience, sociopaths are liars; very good liars. They lie to hide what they have done. This brings up a point: If they are hiding it, they know it's wrong in some way relevant to the situation. Sociopaths have an agenda.

Sociopaths are like crackheads. Crackheads will lock themselves in the bathroom, and as long as you can't prove it, they aren't doing anything. It never happened. Very compartmentalized.

[sjkted]

It is my understanding that sociopathy is a lifelong condition, that no real-life reform is possible, and that it affects people born into wealthy families without abuse as well as poor families with abuse and everything in between.

Sociopaths may be people, but human has a conotation of being more than an animal and more than just a thinker -- it implies emotions as well as empathy, of which a sociopath has none. Consider the phrase: where is your humanity? Sociopaths have none, and thus IMO they ought to be considered other than human.

I say that anyone who is applying for a position of power ought to have a background check performed similar to those individuals who hold a security clearance. Sociopaths have a long history of cruelty to animals as well as other people and an extensive list of Schadenfreude (happiness at another's expense) -- it's their ticket to fame and fortune.

--sjkted

[rgray222]

I am afraid the anwer is yes they are human. Wish we could put the blame on a malviolent aliens.

How do you fit the profile?

A test to figure this question out! If you are a sociopath you probably won't get it unless you ice in your viens (and many do), if you are not you will know the answers! All anwers are yes or no!

Are You A Sociopath?

1. Are you not considered charming by many others?
2. Do you use this charm to manipulate or con others?
3. Do you have a big ego?
4. Are you a pathological liar?
5. Do you feel no remorse when you hurt someone?
6. Do you often break promises?
7. Are you incapable of loving someone?
8. Do you get bored easily?
9. Do you not care much about the feelings of others?
10. Do you have bad control over your impulses?
11. When you were younger were you prone to behavioral problems?
12. Are you unreliable and irresponsible?
13. Are you not loyal to your significant other?
14. Are your plans for the future unrealistic? (be honest now)
15. Do you cling onto others for self gain?
16. Would you break the law?
17. Would you have committed criminal acts as a child?
18. Are you a paranoid person?
19. Do you tend to have many short-term relationships but never any meaningful long-term ones?
20. Are you secretive?
21. Do you know the difference between right and wrong?
22. Do you learn from your past mistakes?
23. Do you just want to "be trusted"?
24. Do you betray people's trust?

[anikohu]

I read it somwhere about to be a president-
" Some have to be sociopaths to think that you can or want to rule a whole country"
I think the number 1% is a little low. Im sure we all met at list one sociopaths in our lifetime- maybe more/
if you go around enough. They don't have to be a murder, but they 're all looking for people whom they can hurt it any way. Ther' goal is overpower, victimization and simply just cost pain to others.
I know that they are very much aware of people with strong and confrontational personalities.
i don't know if they are human? Maybe they are walk-ins??:confused:
It's for sure this topic is under a right forum:spy:

[Chicodoodoo]

Is this another bag Charles thread, this time veiled with what appears a reasonable question? If so, I am not best pleased.

No, not at all. The enforcers working for sociopaths can be sociopaths, but often are not, having simply fallen for a deception. I'm reserving judgment on Charles and see him as a positive so far. Because little is known of the 33, it's difficult to evaluate them.

[Chicodoodoo]

"Sociopath" isn't a one word fits all.

The clinical definition of sociopath is fairly precise, but it's hard to pin down a sociopath in practice because of their characteristics of deception and secrecy.

I think sociopaths are very skilled at infiltrating systems and turning them to their purpose. Indeed, the blind eye syndrome works to their advantage in a successful infiltration. Money-grabbing neocons may be an example.

I don't believe every child is a sociopath until the values of right and wrong are ingrained. There is a development process, to be sure, that can be very influential. However, there is good evidence that some sociopaths are born sociopaths and cannot be changed.

¤=[Post Update]=¤


mmmmm. I consider myself to be an empathic sociopath of sorts.

Sounds like an oxymoron to me. I look forward to your elaboration.

¤=[Post Update]=¤


I consider myself to be an empathic sociopath of sorts.

Wait, I misread that. I thought you said empathetic instead of empathic. Now I really am looking forward to your elaboration!

[Chicodoodoo]

The only thing that sociopaths are interested in is their own survival, whereas the rest of us are conditioned to live by the golden rule "do unto others...". It is interesting to speculate which behaviour offers the greatest chance of survival, since this will determine the future psychological makeup of the human race.

I'm very much aligned with everything you've said here. I've even wondered if reptilians might be like humans with the percentages reversed, as in 99% non-empathetic and 1% empathetic.

[Chicodoodoo]

So regarding if it is possible for Charles to have a change of heart and reverse his thinking, absolutely it is.

Thank you for that. I know there is a lot of variation in humans, both sociopathic and non-sociopathic. This is an example, and a fascinating one at that.

[Chicodoodoo]

"Interestingly," wrote Joyce Gramza, "Zak found that oxytocin had no effect on two percent of the participants and that these students fit the personality profile of sociopaths."

Thus the reason for my original question. I know sociopaths are human, but they are a very different type of human that could qualify them as "non-human". Having true sociopaths in leadership positions is insane, from the perspective of the majority non-sociopaths, if only they knew! Note there is no screening for mental/emotional deviancy in any of our leaders, and as your article points out, non-sociopaths are easily unaware of the situation in front of them.

[Chicodoodoo]

It would behoove all of us to learn to identify them as children and either help HEAL or Recondition them, or separate them and prevent them from getting power.

Yes!!!! I thought I was the only one that saw this problem and this solution. I think this is the key to solving most of our difficulties. Thank you for your detailed comments! Please note dissenting comments are also welcome, as if I'm off-base, I'd like to know.

[Chicodoodoo]

They are already extinct in the wild, and only survive in sheltered captivity.

Interesting point. I see sociopaths as parasites feeding on society. So in the wild, with little societal organization, it would indeed be hard for them to exist.

[12gaugeangel]

Are sociopaths to be considered “human”?


Due to the professional path that I took, I ask myself this question regularly. I am absolutely surrounded by them, and they very often seem "alien" to me.



For me, at this stage in my personal development, this is the core question. We all know something is wrong with the world. Nature tends towards sustainable equilibrium, but humanity apparently does not. We seem to be on the path of destroying not only ourselves, but an entire world. Who is responsible? The short answer is we all are, but some are more responsible than others. Some say it's the Republicans, while others say it's the Democrats. Still others say liberals, conservatives, corporations, bankers, Zionists, Masons, Bilderbergers, and on and on, all the way up to the mysterious group of 33.

The common foundation among all these “more responsible” parties appears to be sociopathy. This was convincingly presented in the recent book "Political Ponerology” by Lobaczewski . Sociopaths in general are deficient in empathy. As a result, they are destructive of equal human rights – the principle of the Golden Rule is lost on them. They literally take every advantage they can with no regard to morality. They have no shame and feel no responsibility for their actions. Yet despite their selfish nature, they band together and cooperate with great efficiency.

This type of behavior is absolutely ubiquitous in corporate america. Of course, certifiable sociopath is much more than just the deficiency in empathy. It's unfortunate that there isn't a more specific term for these folks, because most of them can justify their behavior by comparing themselves to your standard criminals. Many of them think of themselves as ambitious type A personalities with some dirty secret tactics. Manipulation of people is a requirement to move up the ladder quickly. Western society is based on it, especially in business - which is mostly political.



Sociopaths can be considered “deviant” humans. They make up only a small percentage of humanity, maybe 1%, but their domination of the positions of control and power in our civilization is without question. They are steering the bus, and they have quite effectively locked out the vast majority that don't like where the bus is going.

Actual diagnosed sociopaths are probably 1%. The percentages I see are more toward the 50% zone. Again, type A manipulators is more accurate.



Typically, the non-sociopathic majority view sociopaths as criminal. In general, society “removes” criminals. This is not possible when criminals “rule”, writing the laws and controlling the enforcement of those laws. Criminal sociopaths rule over the majority by secrecy and deception (using money as a tool to buy our cooperation), where truth AND lies are used as necessary to maintain control. It is no coincidence that in times like these, the controlled majority become obsessed with separating fact from fiction, while the sociopaths are equally committed to maximum obfuscation.

Great points. I agree with your big picture view, but I think it's worse than you may imagine. Layers and layers of them are duking it out from the middle rungs up. There are microcosms within microcosms. Making their own rules and selling each other out. If a big guy goes down there are literally thousands of underlings ready to step up.



An argument can be made that there is no “good” or “evil” with respect to sociopaths. They may simply be part of the balance of nature, and humanity is simply suffering from a temporary imbalance of excessive sociopathic control. I would argue that this situation appears to be an inherent flaw, that it keeps happening, and that the final results are typically catastrophic and far-reaching.

This may have started with an imbalance. Type As long ago realized that sociopathy(i know thats not a word:)) is a major advantage in business. The curriculum was altered and it's required reading on the path toward the fortune500. It is a full blown culture now, and I don't see it reversing without MAJOR change on a very large scale.



What do we do about the problem of sociopaths, or is it not a problem? If it is a problem, is it the root problem?

I think it's a serious problem within western society and it spills over all of humanity. Unfortunately, I also think we can't do much. Its more than just the top rung, we are literally infested with it. If you push against these people in a way that is noticed, they turn the manipulation up a notch. They will hurt you without a second thought, bet they sleep like babies too. This leads to promotion, more power, and therefore justification of their actions. Rinse, repeat.

It's not about feeling fulfilled while earning an honest living that drives these people. Most of the real crazies certainly don't need the money anymore. There is no hope in trying to reason with them.

Collectively rising up and competing with them at their own game is the only way to correct the imbalance at this point. That seems unlikely because there simply aren't enough good people that don't get smeared before they learn the lesson. Point being that a fight is what they want.

Great post Chico. Sorry my perspective/interpretation is not so positive. It could just be the view from inside the beast, so here's a little positivity: We don't need them. IMO our best hope is to ignore the imbalance, and surround ourselves with spirit and good people. Their system cannot exist forever built on selfish principles. The wheels will come off eventually - I think it's already starting - and they will surely eat themselves.

I fully intend on leaving the race soon, swearing off consumerism, etc. Getting back to natural ways. It confuses the hell out of them btw :D

- 12ga

[Chicodoodoo]

Nuture/nature, baffeling enough on it's own, now with added alien dimension thrown in for good mesure.............pop. (My brain exploding!)

Made me laugh - thanks! Nice comment, too.

[Chicodoodoo]

The hypothesis: Compassion is genetic, lack of it could make sociopath.
Have a read: http://greatergood.berkeley.edu/article/item/the_compassionate_instinct/
Namaste, Steven

Richard Dawkins had a great chapter in “The Selfish Gene” (third edition and later only) about the evolutionary advantages of altruism and cooperation (components of empathy), and how they both arise naturally from dog-eat-dog selfishness! Fascinating, life-altering stuff! Your comment reminded me of the AHA moment I got digesting that chapter. I have an immediate urge to read it again (but it was a library book).

¤=[Post Update]=¤


I tend to not believe in the lie of original sin, which I think is what the elites have tried to instill in the rest of us, so
that we will never trust ourselves. They want us to doubts human beings in general, and ourselves, so that their hatred and
destructiveness will seem "normal" and they can hide among us easier.

I agree very much that it makes their job of disguising themselves all the easier. Great point!

[ponda]

12gaugeangel said
It's not about feeling fulfilled while earning an honest living that drives these people. Most of the real crazies certainly don't need the money anymore. There is no hope in trying to reason with them.


Nice observation.

That's what i ask myself when i see these 70 and 80 year old corporation heads still running from meeting to meeting every day.Why keep doing it at that age ? What could be possibly be driving these individuals ??

[Chicodoodoo]

The difference is that sociopathy is not easily detected and is often, when not criminally caught, rewarded in this society (great perceived gains). Therefore, a cure is never looked for as it could be for other disorders. And they are truly destructive for ordinary folks.

However, I also think that some managers or CEO behave sociopathically but are not inherently sociopath, they are just surrounded by some of them and/or respond to the way society is organised. IMHO.

I have come to the same conclusion on both points. I can't tell you how delightful it is to see what other thoughtful people think about sociopaths, when most people don't even know what they are or know about their domination in controlling positions of power.

[Chicodoodoo]

They go into business management and politics.

Don't forget lawyers, another field that sociopaths are highly attracted to. Where do most politicians come from? The legal field and big business. So they've infiltrated and corrupted the law, corporations, and government. It sure rings true to me.

[ponda]

sociopath (as in "neurotic") n. : someone with a sociopathic personality; a person with an antisocial personality disorder (`psychopath' was once widely used but has now been superseded by `sociopath')

Here's some links that some might find of interest regarding sociopaths/psychopaths

http://www.sott.net/articles/show/210473-Ponerology-101-The-Political-Psychopath
http://www.sott.net/articles/show/148141-The-Trick-of-the-Psychopath-s-Trade-Make-Us-Believe-that-Evil-Comes-from-Others

[Chicodoodoo]

They are learning the ropes of their soon to come 'greater social facade'.

I love this sentence - this is exactly why sociopaths have been so successful and why they remain mostly invisible to those that should be correcting this travesty (meaning us).

[Chicodoodoo]

another aspect that brings out the worst of this behavior is fear and in specific > fear conditioning.

Yes, fear surely plays a central role. For the sociopath, there is also the fear of being unmasked or recognized by non-sociopaths. It's a survival issue for them, and given their domination of power, it apparently becomes a survival issue for us as well.

[Chicodoodoo]

If it is the root problem then how would it possible to identify these sociopaths? I have the misfortune to know one personally and believe me their harder to spot than you think.

I agree, and I see that as a tough, but absolutely critical, nut to crack.

[Sol Va]

That's what i ask myself when i see these 70 and 80 year old corporation heads still running from meeting to meeting every day.Why keep doing it at that age ? What could be possibly be driving these individuals ??

I can make a stab at why because of some that I have known.

They have no sense of themselves when they are still because without an immediate sense of power, action, doing, they become anxious because they can not feel their BEING. This means they do not enjoy quiet moments, do not reminisce about happy times.

Control and Power makes them feel alive and it might be the only thing that does.

I suspect that even sex brings them no sense of happiness.
I have seen them eat so quicky that they seem not to taste anything.

I have seen sociopaths with a lot of physical energy and I wonder if it is because they have no internal conflicts to deal with so everything can just be physical. 80 years olds with the
energy of a 40 year old.

I also suspect that most of them would be considered extroverts, or become extroverts to get what they want.

Remember winning is everything to them, and there is always something else to win. It is never actualy accomplished for good, for them.

No sense of accomplishment because it's on to the next capture and kill.

[ponda]

I can make a stab at why because of some that I have known.

They have no sense of themselves when they are still because without an immediate sense of power, action, doing, they become anxious because they can not feel their BEING. This means they do not enjoy quiet moments, do not reminisce about happy times.

Control and Power makes them feel alive and it might be the only thing that does.

I suspect that even sex brings them no sense of happiness.
I have seen them eat so quicky that they seem not to taste anything.

I have seen sociopaths with a lot of physical energy and I wonder if it is because they have no internal conflicts to deal with so everything can just be physical. 80 years olds with the
energy of a 40 year old.

I also suspect that most of them would be considered extroverts, or become extroverts to get what they want.

Remember winning is everything to them, and there is always something else to win. It is never actualy accomplished for good, for them.

No sense of accomplishment because it's on to the next capture and kill.

Well said and i agree.

Smelling the roses for these guys is taking over another company

[Chicodoodoo]

My guess, sociopath are lacking in mirror neurons for most of them (Whitehaze you are an exception, you already had them

Fantastique! Heureusement, je parle francais. I wish everyone else could, too, just to experience this great video. Basically “mirroring neurons” allow other people to “feel” what others are feeling just from observing their reactions. These mirroring neurons may be a vital component in the human empathy system, which sociopaths lack.

¤=[Post Update]=¤


In my experience, sociopaths are liars; very good liars. They lie to hide what they have done. This brings up a point: If they are hiding it, they know it's wrong in some way relevant to the situation. Sociopaths have an agenda.

Yes. You have just described most of our top politicians and world leaders. That's why I am so concerned about this phenomenon.

[Chicodoodoo]

I say that anyone who is applying for a position of power ought to have a background check performed similar to those individuals who hold a security clearance.

I second that motion. It is so obvious, one has to ask why it hasn't already been done. The answer, I think, is that the sociopaths are firmly in control, and they are not about to allow that to change.

[Flash]

Yes, fear surely plays a central role. For the sociopath, there is also the fear of being unmasked or recognized by non-sociopaths. It's a survival issue for them, and given their domination of power, it apparently becomes a survival issue for us as well.

I must slightly, oh, so slightly, disagree with this statement.

I would sincerely not think that sociopath have fear. Fear is an unknown to them. I think they want to maintain the façade at any price in order to keep reaping benefits and mostly to keep their power.
However, naricissits have fear. This is what mainly distinguish them from sociopath.

[Flash]

I say that anyone who is applying for a position of power ought to have a background check performed similar to those individuals who hold a security clearance. --sjkted

I totally agree with that post, but guess what: most middle level to high level manager have been at one point tested (psychometric tests) to see if they were apt to occupy their position (politicians are not tested though). But the test are biaised based on the job requirements. If it requires someone without a heart, or a "beau parleur", it will probably show on the personnality test and they will be given the position - most of the many hours psychometric tests are quite good and can hardly be worked on by the futur manager - it is the paradigm of power that has to change.

Of course, other higher positions are given to the good old boys club only. No test required.

[Chicodoodoo]

I fully intend on leaving the race soon, swearing off consumerism, etc. Getting back to natural ways. It confuses the hell out of them btw :D- 12ga

Thanks so much for your detailed comment. I have personally sworn off consumerism. I buy as little as possible. In fact, I work hard to limit my income so that I won't pay taxes to support the criminal sociopaths that I see controlling "our" government (what a joke, "our" government). I know it makes little difference, as they just print more money and spread the pain (inflation) around to all the struggling working joes. Still, it is an ethical issue, and given that there is little a single individual can do, I feel obliged to do something. This thread is perhaps another way for me to have an impact. Maybe it will snowball, and we will give them a change they will never recover from (a gentle and compassionate change, like forbidding them to hold any office, public or private).

[Chicodoodoo]

Dang, I'm tired, but I thank everyone for their comments. I hope I can be forgiven for posting so many replies, but I am excited to see some interest in this subject matter. The general public I normally interact with doesn't seem to have any interest in sociopaths, so I feel like a parched man in the desert that just found an oasis. Thank you all for sharing! Please don't stop.

[ponda]

It is interesting to watch how some of the political leaders try to cling on to power at any cost.

We had the recent Ivory Coast leader who refused to step down after losing an election.

The president of Egypt Mubarak clings precariously to power as we speak but refuses to go willingly.

The Italian billionaire leader Berlusconi lurches from one scandal to the next and has so far still survived but won't go of his own accord.

If these so called leaders truly had their publics best interests at heart then why don't they willingly step down when the public wants them replaced.

[andywight]

Dang, I'm tired, but I thank everyone for their comments. I hope I can be forgiven for posting so many replies, but I am excited to see some interest in this subject matter. The general public I normally interact with doesn't seem to have any interest in sociopaths, so I feel like a parched man in the desert that just found an oasis. Thank you all for sharing! Please don't stop.


I too am excited to see interest and concern about this dark and chilling behavior of, if you take the low estimate, just under 7,000,000 people worldwide and presently 10 viewing this forum.

[InTheBackground]

Originally Posted by InTheBackground;120186 that some sociopaths are known by society because they cross that line from acceptable, normal behavior.

The rest? They go into business management and politics.

( ba dump bump)

Very funny, allow me to use your quote with some colleagues. TKs


But of course. ;>

[giovonni]

I must slightly, oh, so slightly, disagree with this statement.

I would sincerely not think that sociopath have fear. Fear is an unknown to them. I think they want to maintain the façade at any price in order to keep reaping benefits and mostly to keep their power.
However, naricissits have fear. This is what mainly distinguish them from sociopath.

i tenderly ~ oh so tenderly disagree ~ i believe all humans (including sociopaths) share a degree of fear -rejection, abandonment, being alone - even death possible? i believe what distinguishes sociopaths from the "mainstream," is their need for more higher mental stimulation ~ more than other humans. They commonly share a higher threshold for fear than normal, thereby displaying a tendency toward risky behaviors.

[Whitehaze]

Human beings are born with two natural fears, falling and loud noises. All other fears that follow are learned. Fear causes the body to produce adrenaline, which is extremely addictive. The more risky or dangerous something is, the more adrenaline is produced. Everyone has fear, whether you are a sociopath or not. I have to agree with Giovonni that the threshold is higher in person with sociopathic traits, but they do indeed have fear and it is not unknown to them. Perhaps its fair to say they deal with it differently, possibly embracing it? What doesnt kill us, makes us stronger?

[joedjemal]

We recently had a problem with one here at the farm http://brickhurstblog.blogspot.com/ The story is there, he still hasn't gone but he's behaving himself although none of us trust him. What to do about people like this is a huge question. I had a choice in the end of giving up my work or standing up to him (And he's done some scarily violent stuff in the past).

So I published the whole thing on my blog about the farm and the threats stopped. We still haven't had the meeting to decide the outcome people are avoiding it.

My father was one. There's always been one around me most of my life and I've been on the receiving end of a great deal of misery from these people. The worst of it is, you can't blame them. They're wired that way but they sow a living hell around themselves. Any new culture MUST exclude them from decision making processes or they'll just end up creating the same mess again. The state of the world reflects their minds.

[Chicodoodoo]

I had another interesting thought upon waking this morning, one related to “Charles”. I see the escalating problems of the world being the result of extremely bad (deceptive) leadership. The “best” sociopaths (meaning the worst sociopaths, the most cunning and deceiving) seem to congregate and flourish in our leadership positions. To have any power at all, given that sociopaths are such a small minority of the human population, they have to enlist the aid of a virtual army of non-sociopaths. They do this primarily with money by buying our cooperation, but also by controlling information (a form of mind control) so that we willingly accept being bought.

To facilitate buying this cooperation, the ruling sociopaths withhold a good deal of information from this army of non-sociopaths so that the public is unaware of the true bigger picture. Maybe as much as half of the information is not made public. Of the remaining half that is released, it is divided into two unequal portions. The smaller portion, maybe a 20% slice of the entire information pie, is true. That 20% is easily verifiable, and anyone that checks it out finds that it is always true, which develops trust in the public mind that they are receiving accurate information from their leaders and the media. The other 30% portion is lies, but anyone that tries to verify this false information finds that they cannot prove or disprove it, which also instills trust in the public mind that they must be hearing the truth. The reason the 30% cannot be disproved is that the information needed to do so is contained in the 50% that is withheld!

So, an army of non-sociopaths ends up being willing dupes of the uncaring, selfish, conniving sociopaths. But, a few of these non-sociopaths will eventually figure out that they have been deceived, and they will be fighting mad. They will want to turn the tables, expose the deception, and get even by kicking their manipulators in the nuts! We call these people whistle-blowers. Often, their stories can hardly be believed, but that is to be expected if we, the public, are operating on only 20% truth.

Whistle-blowers! Like “Charles”?

[Whitehaze]

The different types of Sociopaths:

The Common Sociopath
1.Common sociopaths make up the majority of sociopathic personality disorders. The rarely use their conscious when making decisions that can affect other people. They seem in a constant state of traveling either as a runaway or living in shelters. Many are prideful about their anti-authoritative nature. Generally, these people are satisfied with their lives and shirking any responsibility for their actions.

Alienated Type
2.Alienated sociopaths have problems empathizing with other individuals. They are unable to feel emotional intimacy or connections to others in the world. Some causes may be inheritance through genetics or an unloving environment during youth. Many cannot contain violent urges and conduct in criminal behavior. Numerous individuals show more feelings towards a pet or object than to a human. Common symptoms of this type are manipulation, irresponsibility, refusal to conform to societal norms and exaggerated sexuality. This group is further broken down into Disaffiliated Type, Hostile Type, Disempathetic Type and Cheated Type.

Disaffiliated Type
3.Inability to connect to others affect the person in every aspect of life. All of the relationships in this person's life are wrought with complete lack of intimacy. David Thoreson Lykken, author of "The Antisocial Personality," contends that this type of sociopath lacked nurturing from a caregiver, which contributed to the sociopath's underdevelopment of love and attachment.

Hostile Type
4.The hostile type of sociopath is consistently angry, violent and aggressive. They feel completely rejected by society. These types prevent themselves from feeling sad and depressed by heavily relying on their anger as a sort of survival mechanism.

Disempathetic Type
5.The disempathetic type is able to feel an emotional connection to a restricted group of people. This group may include friends, pets or family members. The sociopath regards people outside of the group as objects. Typically, people have a wide circle of empathy for others; however, many people may feel no compassion for certain people like murderers or criminals. The sociopath differs from normal people by have a tiny group of people whom they seemingly care about.

The Cheated and Aggressive Sociopaths
6.The cheated sociopath feels disadvantaged by an uncontrollable circumstance in life. They may feel cheated by a physical disability or what they consider an unattractive physical appearance. These types refuse to follow rules set by society because they feel like they have been cheated out of having a good life.

Aggressive sociopaths use violence, intimidation and dominating behavior to get their way. Having control over their victims and experiencing the rush of power through their violence seems to be the only gratification that they get from life.

The Dysocial Sociopath
7.The dysocial sociopath is psychologically normal, yet aligns himself with a group that regularly breaks social norms and is violent. Militia groups, organized crime and guerrilla solders are parts of this group. These people have a circle of friends or co-conspirators for whom they feel genuine affection; however, they disregard the feelings of people outside this group.

[Chicodoodoo]

Any new culture MUST exclude them from decision making processes or they'll just end up creating the same mess again. The state of the world reflects their minds.

Wow. What a story. I agree completely with your conclusion. Good luck dealing with Danny. He needs to be excluded, also known as shunned. Exclusion only works when everyone has knowledge of the situation details. Otherwise, Danny just searches for and finds another victim to manipulate, as you have seen. That's why your blog is so important, so that the knowledge is shared and widely available. That is why sociopaths work hard to hide knowledge that would expose them. "Classified for reasons of national security." The liars!

[Dale]

Putting on my professional hat, for a moment.

Following an endorsement by esoteric researcher Laura Knight Jadczyk, the book "Political Ponerology," by Andrzej Lobaczewski, began to steadily influence the way alternative communities view the mental health of world leaders. Ponerology, for clarification sake, is a title given to the study of evil. Mr. Lobaczewski's book deals with "sociopaths," and their drive for power. Though Ms. Knight often misinterprets the book, and has a slightly convoluted sense of what sociopathy is, I do respect the work of Lobaczewski. Not so much the general response of the alternative community with regard to the topic of sociopathy.

Sociopathy is the shorthand term for antisocial personality disorder, which is characterized by traits such as a lack of an empathetic connection, aggression toward others, and egocentrism. Yes, many individuals across all nations have at least one or two of these traits, from time to time, but a strong prevalence in one's character for many years (must be an adult) would denote a diagnosis of ASPD.

Here's where it got a bit messy. Some groups in the alternative movement have began to state that individuals with ASPD, often referring to them simply as sociopaths, have no soul. They also sometimes make the illogical argument that individuals of differing, or "odd," paradigms are sociopaths - especially if the paradigm held is in direct opposition as that of the accusers'. Does this not sound reminiscent of the the "witch burning" trials spawned from the Protestant and Catholic quarrels of the 16th Century?

The bottom line is quite simple. ASPD, like all other mental disorders, does not bar one from being a human. I'm quite sure they have "souls," just as someone with Schizophrenia, Asperger Syndrome, dissociative identity disorder, or psychosis does. Yes, it's quite a terrible disorder - I'd strongly despise having to live with a patient of it - but I do view it from a logical vantage point.

[Chicodoodoo]

I too am excited to see interest and concern about this dark and chilling behavior of, if you take the low estimate, just under 7,000,000 people worldwide and presently 10 viewing this forum.

Shouldn't that be 70 million (1% of 7 billion)?

I estimate that out of those 70 million sociopaths, maybe only 1 out of 100 has what it takes to really excel at the game of politics. That means worldwide, there are some 700,000 very dangerous and destructive people that end up in powerful leadership positions. I would estimate a thousand of them are part of our government right now. No wonder our government makes decisions that normal people consider insane. I could even name names, and they would be names nearly everyone recognizes.

[joedjemal]

Putting on my professional hat, for a moment.

Following an endorsement by esoteric researcher Laura Knight Jadczyk, the book "Political Ponerology," by Andrzej Lobaczewski, began to steadily influence the way alternative communities view the mental health of world leaders. Ponerology, for clarification sake, is a title given to the study of evil. Mr. Lobaczewski's book deals with "sociopaths," and their drive for power. Though Ms. Knight often misinterprets the book, and has a slightly convoluted sense of what sociopathy is, I do respect the work of Lobaczewski. Not so much the general response of the alternative community with regard to the topic of sociopathy.

Sociopathy is the shorthand term for antisocial personality disorder, which is characterized by traits such as a lack of an empathetic connection, aggression toward others, and egocentrism. Yes, many individuals across all nations have at least one or two of these traits, from time to time, but a strong prevalence in one's character for many years (must be an adult) would denote a diagnosis of ASPD.

Here's where it got a bit messy. Some groups in the alternative movement have began to state that individuals with ASPD, often referring to them simply as sociopaths, have no soul. They also sometimes make the illogical argument that individuals of differing, or "odd," paradigms are sociopaths - especially if the paradigm held is in direct opposition as that of the accusers'. Does this not sound reminiscent of the the "witch burning" trials spawned from the Protestant and Catholic quarrels of the 16th Century?

The bottom line is quite simple. ASPD, like all other mental disorders, does not bar one from being a human. I'm quite sure they have "souls," just as someone with Schizophrenia, Asperger Syndrome, dissociative identity disorder, or psychosis does. Yes, it's quite a terrible disorder - I'd strongly despise having to live with a patient of it - but I do view it from a logical vantage point.

I'm quite sure they have souls, just different filters. I'm aspie I should know.

Doesn't stop them being a nightmare problem though.

[Chicodoodoo]

The bottom line is quite simple. ASPD, like all other mental disorders, does not bar one from being a human.

Yes, logically, there is no question that sociopaths are humans. But functionally, they are essentially different from human, as they are “abnormal” humans. The real issue is this: is it logical that sociopaths should be leading the rest of us? The answer, I think, is obvious. What is not so obvious to the general public is that sociopaths are, in fact, leading us. That desperately needs to be corrected.

I'm very glad you pointed out the dangers here of a witch-hunt. You are correct. I asked, “Are sociopaths human?” knowing full well that the answer to this question was “Yes, and no.” I salute you for this comment.

[Dale]

Yes, logically, there is no question that sociopaths are humans. But functionally, they are essentially different from human, as they are “abnormal” humans. The real issue is this: is it logical that sociopaths should be leading the rest of us? The answer, I think, is obvious. What is not so obvious to the general public is that sociopaths are, in fact, leading us. That desperately needs to be corrected.

I'm very glad you pointed out the dangers here of a witch-hunt. You are correct. I asked, “Are sociopaths human?” knowing full well that the answer to this question was “Yes, and no.” I salute you for this comment.

A well-said comment.

Sociopaths do tend to rise to the top of any given hypothetical pyramid structure - politics being one of them. It's a difficult imbalance to correct. At our present level, the vast majority of individuals have no knowledge even of sociopathy, so not much can be done. The best thing we can work toward is adding to the building awareness, in hopes people begin to "catch on" to the telltale signs of ASPD in those they encounter.

[sjkted]

Human beings are born with two natural fears, falling and loud noises. All other fears that follow are learned. Fear causes the body to produce adrenaline, which is extremely addictive. The more risky or dangerous something is, the more adrenaline is produced. Everyone has fear, whether you are a sociopath or not. I have to agree with Giovonni that the threshold is higher in person with sociopathic traits, but they do indeed have fear and it is not unknown to them. Perhaps its fair to say they deal with it differently, possibly embracing it? What doesnt kill us, makes us stronger?

One interesting research test I read about with sociopaths was that they were shown a number of gruesome images of people being tortured, in despicable conditions, dead, being mutilated, etc. while they were hooked up to an EEG machine. When human beings were shown these images, their brainwaves started going crazy up and down -- in other words, they registered a pretty extreme response to the images. With sociopaths, their brainwaves did not change at all from seeing normal people images to the tortured people images. This is what we are dealing with...

--sjkted

[lightblue]

dale:
Quote Originally Posted by Dale View Post
The bottom line is quite simple. ASPD, like all other mental disorders, does not bar one from being a human.


seems a human shell is encompassing all sorts..

some humans maintain there is no soul - i no longer think they need reassuring...:yu:l

.


.

[sjkted]

Another interesting question to add to the mix: most animals have natural predators or some type of action that keeps them in line to keep a sustainable population and ecosystem. As humans, we have no natural predators aside from evil ETs, the boogeyman, and God himself. Back to the real world, could sociopaths be our natural predators to keep the human beings in line, should they deviate too far from nature?

--sjkted

[lightblue]

Another interesting question to add to the mix: most animals have natural predators or some type of action that keeps them in line to keep a sustainable population and ecosystem. As humans, we have no natural predators aside from evil ETs, the boogeyman, and God himself. Back to the real world, could sociopaths be our natural predators to keep the human beings in line, should they deviate too far from nature?

--sjkted

won't that assume that they are superior in some way...i think not :no:...it's just that a regular human would not be able to begin to think of so many different ways of deception...:yu: l

.

[Chicodoodoo]

could sociopaths be our natural predators to keep the human beings in line, should they deviate too far from nature? --sjkted

That's what I was wondering in my opening post when I asked if sociopaths "may simply be part of the balance of nature". My gut says no, that either sociopathic humans or non-sociopathic humans are an evolutionary dead-end (maybe both?), with the evidence pointing to sociopaths, despite their "staying power" (which relies on deception). It also appears to me that most ET/human interactions that overcome the fear stage (especially those reported by children) are empathetic and caring in nature. But perhaps not all of those interactions are, so evolution may not yet be decided with respect to the value of empathy. Evolution is probably thinking, "It depends."

[sjkted]

The problem I see with the hypothesis it has been the sociopaths (people on the top) who have been pushing us over the cliff and subverting us. All of the human beings are either passive (unaware) or trying to stop them. This is in stark contrast to the idea of natural predators. But, OTOH if we were all in line with nature, there would be no place for sociopaths to rule over us.

--sjkted

[ceetee9]

Ok I’ll take a stab at this one to, hopefully, provide some food for thought. First, I must admit I really dislike subjective labels. In general, I think subjective labels are applied to elicit a desired response or effect and/or to absolve one’s self of the responsibility of having to think and dig deeper in order to understand the true nature of a person (place or thing) or the context in which a situation or event occurred.

Anyway, let’s look at a few definitions of sociopath. LearnersDictionary.com defines it as “someone who behaves in a dangerous or violent way towards other people and does not feel guilty about such behavior.” The online Merriam-Webster dictionary defines it (via psychopath) as “a mentally ill or unstable person; especially : a person affected with antisocial personality disorder” and Dictionary.com defines it as “a person, as a psychopathic personality, whose behavior is antisocial and who lacks a sense of moral responsibility or social conscience.”

Given these definitions let’s examine some real world examples. Would you consider a soldier who kills an enemy a sociopath? Clearly, he is someone who behaves in a dangerous and violent way towards other people. And I’m sure many of us have known some who joined the service just so they could “legally” kill “our” enemies and with little or no guilt in doing so.

Suppose a person was committed to a mental institution because they heard voices and saw people who weren’t there. The more they tried to convince family and friends that what they were seeing and hearing was real, the more they were told they were crazy and, thus, the more “unstable” they were perceived to be. Consequently, they became more antisocial and avoided family and friends and any other social interactions as a means of self preservation. But what if that person actually had an ability the rest of us didn’t that enabled them to see into other dimensions, alternate “realities,” or the “spirit world” where the voices heard and people seen were every bit as real as you and I? Is the person truly mentally ill or a sociopath? They fit the definition.

And consider the situation where a terminally ill man requests of his wife to take his life and end the constant excruciating pain and suffering caused by his illness. They’ve both been told by multiple doctors that there is no hope for recovery. Certainly there are many who believe she has a “moral” and “social” responsibility to ignore her husband’s request. While others would argue: what is “socially” right or “moral” about watching someone you love suffer and beg to be put out of their misery when there is no hope? It is so easy for people to make judgments of others when they are not the one who has to agonize over whether to do what is “morally” right in their heart or what is “legally” right or “perceived” to be right by their religious beliefs. So, if the wife complies with her husband’s request is she a sociopath?

There are countless situations where the line between being a sociopath and just plain being human are not so easily and clearly defined—as is the case with so many labels we are so quick to attach to others.

Until we stop looking outside, and start looking inside, ourselves for answers, I don’t believe we will ever learn how to live in peace and harmony with one another or with nature. The Creator gave us a mind and free will. It is up to us to use the gift for the betterment of ALL and this planet.

[Arrowwind]

I wonder if a "reformed sociopath" who wants to get back at their oppressor is really reformed?

When healing occurs you just walk away. The pathology of revenge is still sociopathic.
Healing will always involve letting go and recreating your life in a new way.

I do consider sociopaths as human but they are not very high up on the evolutionay enlightenment ladder.

They are like infants.. wrapped up in an infantile behavior pattern that revolves around self gratification with little to no
thought for those that provide for them.

A normal infant quickly evolves out of this behavior as they develop skills in communication
and in giving and receiving love, much of which manefests merely through the
development of physical capability to interact with the world.
There capacity for love and giving and taking was always there.. it only
requried the physical attributes of being able to do what they already know.
A sociopath does not manefest these beneficial social skills because they are truely not there
and are yet to be learned and integrated.

To me it is a matter of soul evolution. They are not evolved souls and non evolved souls will
attract to themselves that which they are.
Even if they should possess sidha powers, that is a base evolvement
if there is no evolution of heart to go with it.
Evolution of higher centers without heart is very dangerous
and the great teachers have warned about focusing on developement
of power without balance.

My teacher has told me that these people are not fully human.
they are more like animals in the human form as they are not evolved
yet the potential resides within then and as such it makes us recognize them as human
as we are able to see the potential in all people when we have already traveled the
evolutionay path.
To be fully human means an awakening of all the centers in balance.
The goal of life is to learn how to become fully human.

[sjkted]

won't that assume that they are superior in some way...i think not :no:...it's just that a regular human would not be able to begin to think of so many different ways of deception...:yu: l

.

I hate to say it, but in some ways they are superior. For example, in a combat situation, a human being would have to consider fear and also overcome the natural urge not to kill other people. The army and military does a lot to "condition" this out of people, but it doesn't always work. A sociopath just goes in and does the job without any of the emotional hangup.

That said, as far as creating a world where other people would want to live, sociopaths fail miserably -- that is, unless we are talking about professional lying, deception, trickery, drama, etc. -- in other words, politicians.

--sjkted

[sjkted]

Ok I’ll take a stab at this one to, hopefully, provide some food for thought. First, I must admit I really dislike subjective labels. In general, I think subjective labels are applied to elicit a desired response or effect and/or to absolve one’s self of the responsibility of having to think and dig deeper in order to understand the true nature of a person (place or thing) or the context in which a situation or event occurred.

Anyway, let’s look at a few definitions of sociopath. LearnersDictionary.com defines it as “someone who behaves in a dangerous or violent way towards other people and does not feel guilty about such behavior.” The online Merriam-Webster dictionary defines it (via psychopath) as “a mentally ill or unstable person; especially : a person affected with antisocial personality disorder” and Dictionary.com defines it as “a person, as a psychopathic personality, whose behavior is antisocial and who lacks a sense of moral responsibility or social conscience.”

Given these definitions let’s examine some real world examples. Would you consider a soldier who kills an enemy a sociopath? Clearly, he is someone who behaves in a dangerous and violent way towards other people. And I’m sure many of us have known some who joined the service just so they could “legally” kill “our” enemies and with little or no guilt in doing so.

Suppose a person was committed to a mental institution because they heard voices and saw people who weren’t there. The more they tried to convince family and friends that what they were seeing and hearing was real, the more they were told they were crazy and, thus, the more “unstable” they were perceived to be. Consequently, they became more antisocial and avoided family and friends and any other social interactions as a means of self preservation. But what if that person actually had an ability the rest of us didn’t that enabled them to see into other dimensions, alternate “realities,” or the “spirit world” where the voices heard and people seen were every bit as real as you and I? Is the person truly mentally ill or a sociopath? They fit the definition.

And consider the situation where a terminally ill man requests of his wife to take his life and end the constant excruciating pain and suffering caused by his illness. They’ve both been told by multiple doctors that there is no hope for recovery. Certainly there are many who believe she has a “moral” and “social” responsibility to ignore her husband’s request. While others would argue: what is “socially” right or “moral” about watching someone you love suffer and beg to be put out of their misery when there is no hope? It is so easy for people to make judgments of others when they are not the one who has to agonize over whether to do what is “morally” right in their heart or what is “legally” right or “perceived” to be right by their religious beliefs. So, if the wife complies with her husband’s request is she a sociopath?

There are countless situations where the line between being a sociopath and just plain being human are not so easily and clearly defined—as is the case with so many labels we are so quick to attach to others.

Until we stop looking outside, and start looking inside, ourselves for answers, I don’t believe we will ever learn how to live in peace and harmony with one another or with nature. The Creator gave us a mind and free will. It is up to us to use the gift for the betterment of ALL and this planet.

The problem with these definitions is that they have been crafted by sociopaths (no joking). I'll give a definition: a person who is utterly incapable of expressing human emotion. They are able to think and feel physical pain, but have no capacity for emotion, sympathy, or empathy.

We have sort of a chicken-and-the-egg situation here. You're right that we need to look within and that a more evolved society would not be putting these types into positions of power, but on the other hand the sociopaths in power are actively subverting us, the people and preventing us from doing so. So, at this point, it is really a power struggle.

--sjkted

[Ethereal Blue Being]

Are there any studies linking the sociopath themself or to a parent (especially the birth mother with alcohol abuse, drug abuse, or industrial poisioning ) also an absent mother while growing up and raised by non-attentive babysitters ? I believe they are human but perhaps the world of duality requires the sociopaths are here to balance the loving empaths... A village used to raise a child and would help keep them in line so to speak but now so much goes on behind closed doors in childhood and with the advent of television and motion pictures humanity may be in for a larger percentage of such individuals.I think we are in uncharted territory...

[ceetee9]

The problem with these definitions is that they have been crafted by sociopaths (no joking). I'll give a definition: a person who is utterly incapable of expressing human emotion. They are able to think and feel physical pain, but have no capacity for emotion, sympathy, or empathy.

We have sort of a chicken-and-the-egg situation here. You're right that we need to look within and that a more evolved society would not be putting these types into positions of power, but on the other hand the sociopaths in power are actively subverting us, the people and preventing us from doing so. So, at this point, it is really a power struggle.

--sjkted

You have just provided another example of why people shouldn't get so caught up on labels. Because there is no definitive definition for most of these labels we use, the labels mean different things to different people. How can we ever hope to understand one another and come to any sensible solutions to problems if we can't even agree on the definition of what it is we're trying to discuss?

I agree with you that the people in power are actively subverting us. And they're doing an outstanding job at keeping us distracted and arguing amongst ourselves, I might add. But it is us who are preventing us from rectifying the problem. As long as we continue to play their game and lose focus (like the endless moronic Republicans vs. Democrats are the evil-doers nonsense), they win. At some point, we have to grow up, stop the name calling (i.e., labeling) and start working together and taking real action to oust these thugs from control. Will it be easy? No. Is it possible? Anything is possible. Can we do it? Only if we decide to take responsibility for what we have let happen and start taking action. Are we up to the challenge? Time will tell.

[joedjemal]

The problem with these definitions is that they have been crafted by sociopaths (no joking). I'll give a definition: a person who is utterly incapable of expressing human emotion. They are able to think and feel physical pain, but have no capacity for emotion, sympathy, or empathy.

We have sort of a chicken-and-the-egg situation here. You're right that we need to look within and that a more evolved society would not be putting these types into positions of power, but on the other hand the sociopaths in power are actively subverting us, the people and preventing us from doing so. So, at this point, it is really a power struggle.

--sjkted

And they can fake emotions, love and concern incredibly convincingly. Quite often you don't spot them until the betrayal. And then they don't need to pretend any more and become very different.

[andywight]

Shouldn't that be 70 million (1% of 7 billion)?

I estimate that out of those 70 million sociopaths, maybe only 1 out of 100 has what it takes to really excel at the game of politics. That means worldwide, there are some 700,000 very dangerous and destructive people that end up in powerful leadership positions. I would estimate a thousand of them are part of our government right now. No wonder our government makes decisions that normal people consider insane. I could even name names, and they would be names nearly everyone recognizes.

Oops, was only out by one point. Thanks for the correction.

[sjkted]

That sounds about right: 700,000 "leaders" BS artists propped up by a significant number of midlevel people who are willing to look the other way when necessary for rewards.

--sjkted

[ponda]

That sounds about right: 700,000 "leaders" BS artists propped up by a significant number of midlevel people who are willing to look the other way when necessary for rewards.

--sjkted

Yes especially when you add on all the dumbing down and conditioning of the population through propaganda,chemicals,tv,education,laws etc it is then easy to see how we can be ruled by a very small minority

[deSelbyst]

[QUOTE=lightblue;121451]won't that assume that they are superior in some way...i think not :no:...it's just that a regular human would not be able to begin to think of so many different ways of deception...:yu: l

.

I hate to say it, but in some ways they are superior.



Mabey over developed in the world of material but underdeveloped in the world beyond might be another way of putting it. Those with disconnect certainly have an advantage in the acquisition game but they ultimately lack creation, they are really only a means to destruction. This, in the overall game, Imho, leaves them at a distinct disadvantage.

[Chicodoodoo]

Anyway, let’s look at a few definitions of sociopath. LearnersDictionary.com defines it as

I don't like labels either, but if they are assigned accurately, they can be extremely useful. The problem here is that the dictionary definitions of "sociopath" are entirely too broad, all in the interest of brevity. To accurately define a sociopath takes many, many pages. And psychology is not an exact science yet due to the complexity of the human organism, which we hardly understand. There have been some long comments and some good links posted in this thread that would be a better starting place to find a definition of what constitutes a sociopath. Or Google it (that's how I learned about it). But dictionaries can't do it justice.

[Chicodoodoo]

I'll give a definition: a person who is utterly incapable of expressing human emotion. They are able to think and feel physical pain, but have no capacity for emotion, sympathy, or empathy.

Even this definition is way too broad. Sociopaths can express many human emotions, but they are deficient with respect to certain emotions, with empathy being the one most often cited. Shame is another related emotion that they often lack, and there are others. Also the deficit could be a significantly reduced level of feeling the particular emotion, rather than it being totally absent. Some sociopaths are indeed more generally deficient in emotional response than others, to the point that it could appear to a normal person that they are incapable of expressing human emotion. My understanding is that a test to accurately identify sociopaths is a tough nut to crack, since sociopathic behavior itself covers a spectrum of deviancy.

[sjkted]

For anyone who is really interested in the topic, take a look at the book The Mask of Sanity by Hervey Cleckley. It's a free download at www.cassiopaea.org/cass/sanity_1.PdF One of the topics he brings up is that there cannot be an accurate definition of psychopaths (his term as the founding father of the research) because there are so many different authority figures who ignore the research, cloud the terms and change the details around. It's a very interesting subject.

After reading this book, I would say it's absolutely possible to define sociopath in a clear, unambiguous definition and they are not difficult to spot and understand so long as you don't take anything they say at face value alone.

--sjkted

[pintorider]

i like to thank Charles ~ for making this discussion possible, this is good very good, indeed!

Note, if a human was born with this genetic disorder or (even) later suffered a head injury, causing this disorder, another aspect that brings out the worst of this behavior is fear and in specific > fear conditioning. This might explain why some can usually go so long unnoticed (living in a nurturing environment), while others living in a hellish existence tend to explode (upon) within society.

Excellent points, Giovonni. Makes a lot of sense that sociopaths in hellish conditions become the criminal sociopaths while the rest fly under the radar.

[Flash]

? One interesting research test I read about with sociopaths was that they were shown a number of gruesome images of people being tortured, in despicable conditions, dead, being mutilated, etc. while they were hooked up to an EEG machine. When human beings were shown these images, their brainwaves started going crazy up and down -- in other words, they registered a pretty extreme response to the images. With sociopaths, their brainwaves did not change at all from seeing normal people images to the tortured people images. This is what we are dealing with... --sjkted

Would you have a link to this research, I would really like to read it? Thanks so much

As far as I am concern, sociopath probably have a soul, inactive in this dimension, or their raison d'être is an unknown to us, the other humans. I certainly think they are sick as with other neurological disease, but they will never seek help because being sociopath pays in this world, while being autistic or victim of an ACV doesnt. Research won't go much into it either because they don't demand it. Sociopath may also be psychopath, and we are in dire trouble then.

I have been presenting these kind of people on a regular basis to different corporate groups, I found out that all of them had to deal with some sociopaths, all suffered under them.

When we describe the sociopath behaviors naming the types of manipulations, most people will recognise it, even if their good heart has problems to admit some people could be so devious. I think it is just a question of naming the bad deeds and behaviors for regular folks to understand what they had to confront. Next time around, they are not so naive around sociopath. Furthermore, I find generation Y and C much more attune to reality about sociopath and much more readily accepting that it does exist and they are faster into taking action against them when encountering them. IMO of course.:evil:

[sjkted]

I believe it is in the book I posted on my last post.

--sjkted

[andywight]

We recently had a problem with one here at the farm http://brickhurstblog.blogspot.com/ The story is there, he still hasn't gone but he's behaving himself although none of us trust him. What to do about people like this is a huge question. I had a choice in the end of giving up my work or standing up to him (And he's done some scarily violent stuff in the past).

So I published the whole thing on my blog about the farm and the threats stopped. We still haven't had the meeting to decide the outcome people are avoiding it.

My father was one. There's always been one around me most of my life and I've been on the receiving end of a great deal of misery from these people. The worst of it is, you can't blame them. They're wired that way but they sow a living hell around themselves. Any new culture MUST exclude them from decision making processes or they'll just end up creating the same mess again. The state of the world reflects their minds.

I would be interested to know how many other people here have had direct contact with a sociopath and I think it would be benefit to us all if they would post their experiences.

[pintorider]

Ok I’ll take a stab at this one to, hopefully, provide some food for thought. First, I must admit I really dislike subjective labels. In general, I think subjective labels are applied to elicit a desired response or effect and/or to absolve one’s self of the responsibility of having to think and dig deeper in order to understand the true nature of a person (place or thing) or the context in which a situation or event occurred.

Anyway, let’s look at a few definitions of sociopath. LearnersDictionary.com defines it as “someone who behaves in a dangerous or violent way towards other people and does not feel guilty about such behavior.” The online Merriam-Webster dictionary defines it (via psychopath) as “a mentally ill or unstable person; especially : a person affected with antisocial personality disorder” and Dictionary.com defines it as “a person, as a psychopathic personality, whose behavior is antisocial and who lacks a sense of moral responsibility or social conscience.”

Given these definitions let’s examine some real world examples. Would you consider a soldier who kills an enemy a sociopath? Clearly, he is someone who behaves in a dangerous and violent way towards other people. And I’m sure many of us have known some who joined the service just so they could “legally” kill “our” enemies and with little or no guilt in doing so.

Suppose a person was committed to a mental institution because they heard voices and saw people who weren’t there. The more they tried to convince family and friends that what they were seeing and hearing was real, the more they were told they were crazy and, thus, the more “unstable” they were perceived to be. Consequently, they became more antisocial and avoided family and friends and any other social interactions as a means of self preservation. But what if that person actually had an ability the rest of us didn’t that enabled them to see into other dimensions, alternate “realities,” or the “spirit world” where the voices heard and people seen were every bit as real as you and I? Is the person truly mentally ill or a sociopath? They fit the definition.

And consider the situation where a terminally ill man requests of his wife to take his life and end the constant excruciating pain and suffering caused by his illness. They’ve both been told by multiple doctors that there is no hope for recovery. Certainly there are many who believe she has a “moral” and “social” responsibility to ignore her husband’s request. While others would argue: what is “socially” right or “moral” about watching someone you love suffer and beg to be put out of their misery when there is no hope? It is so easy for people to make judgments of others when they are not the one who has to agonize over whether to do what is “morally” right in their heart or what is “legally” right or “perceived” to be right by their religious beliefs. So, if the wife complies with her husband’s request is she a sociopath?

There are countless situations where the line between being a sociopath and just plain being human are not so easily and clearly defined—as is the case with so many labels we are so quick to attach to others.

Until we stop looking outside, and start looking inside, ourselves for answers, I don’t believe we will ever learn how to live in peace and harmony with one another or with nature. The Creator gave us a mind and free will. It is up to us to use the gift for the betterment of ALL and this planet.

What's the inherent problem with labels? It's how we communicate. Sort of a short hand. They only become a problem when abused.

Your examples, the warrior or the mercy killer, don't describe the actions or attitudes of sociopaths. If you were ever strongly affected by one of these monsters you'd know the difference. I think the line is very clear. Granted, the public has little knowledge of this subject and that is reflected by the rather simplistic definitions in the dictionaries you cited. We can look inside ourselves all we want, but that won't stop the sociopaths from running roughshod over the rest of us.

[sjkted]

I would be interested to know how many other people here have had direct contact with a sociopath and I think it would be benefit to us all if they would post their experiences.


I would be willing to pretty much guarantee everyone has, although not everyone can identify them as such.

My most recent one is I took over a consulting business from a husband and wife couple who were moving out of town. We had a deal that they would pay me a percentage for a while and take a percentage for themselves. Both of them seemed very upstanding. They were both Christians and made a big deal out of their church involvement and what they were doing in the community, etc. Just after they left town, they started to pay late and too little and the communication broke down. Numerous calls with the wife were not returned and when I did get her I get excuse after excuse followed by pleas of the golden rule -- that they were truly disadvantaged by circumstances, etc. Bottom line is I sued them and after confronting them in court, found out the wife had decided she could "take me" for my earnings and was playing a game, betting I wouldn't be able to collect on them. Prior to appearing in front of the judge, I was asked to meet with them to see if we could reconcile anything. I got the same thing -- it's difficult to explain in words, but I was able to look into her eyes and see there was absolutely no feeling present and this was all a big game.

--sjkted

[Whitehaze]

[QUOTE]
I would be willing to pretty much guarantee everyone has, although not everyone can identify them as such.




This is quite true unless a sociopath is blatent about how they present themselves. Some have a chameleon quality about them and can blend into almost situation or crowd to achieve their goal and you would never know they were there.

[ponda]

I suspect that they are much more prevalent in society than most expect and that they are not just limited to positions of influence and power but can be anywhere and everywhere in society.

[Chicodoodoo]

I suspect that they are much more prevalent in society than most expect and that they are not just limited to positions of influence and power but can be anywhere and everywhere in society.

Sociopaths are definitely not limited to positions of influence and power. Most cannot make the entire climb up the power ladder. It's just that when you look at people in positions of great power, you don't find that 1% are sociopaths, like in the general population. You find that maybe 90% are sociopaths. The exact number isn't known, so I'm guessing here just based on rough observation, but it is a high percentage.

[ceetee9]

Precisely, you just answered your own question. Labels become a problem when abused and that includes when people have different ideas about what the label means. When that happens, I contend, you are not communicating--and by communication I mean when all parties have the same understanding of what it is being discussed. Don't misunderstand me. I don't have a problem with objective labels (e.g., apple, automobile, house, etc.). They're fine and arguably necessary for effective communication. But when we start assigning subjective labels to people when we don't even have a clear understanding ourself of what the label means or how it may be perceived by another, then we're getting into dangerous territory. Case in point: do you believe the "witches" burned at the stake in Salem, MA in the late 1600s were, indeed, witches and/or deserved to be burned at the stake? Do you think applying that label to those people was fair and just and "very clearly" communicated truth? I'd be willing to bet most of those who laughed and applauded while watching the burning thought so. And I'll bet most people today would disagree. And do you think if everybody in the mob looked within themselves and seriously thought about what they were doing for a few moments the outcome might have been very different?

My point in all of this is just that things can quickly and easily degrade into something we may have no intention of wanting when we check our reasoning and intellect at the door for expedience or, worse, just to be part of the groupthink. We all know there are people who will do anything to get what they want, and believe they deserve it, who will have no guilt, shame or remorse no matter what they do to get it--be they "sociopaths" or something else. We just need to be very careful about the labels we use and how ready we are to apply them.

[pintorider]

I think you have touched on an important point inherent in all psychiatric diagnosis. Because that's really what this is, a diagnosis which is then given a label. I'm sorry but I don't think your witch analogy bears much weight in this discussion. Apples and Oranges. This is not the 1600s and there are plenty of advocates, lawyers, etc., around to make sure there is no "witch hunt." So I wouldn't worry about it. What concerns me are the rights of victims, not the perpetrators as such, although everyone deserves justice. Good point, though. Thanks.

[trenairio]

[edit][edit][edit]

[pintorider]

I think you mean "psychopaths" instead of "psychotics." "Psychopath" and "sociopath" are the same thing. A psychotic is a person with a real mental illness and is rarely related to psychopathy although it can be. I agree, they are lost in the sense we have no cure yet. Interestingly, psychopaths have exhibited definite brain differences compared to non-psychopaths, when brain imaging equipment is used to investigate these people. So perhaps this is an organic problem with a cure. That would be wonderful, but so far, there is no cure and the best we can do is to learn about their behavior and recognize them when they attempt to enter our lives.

[Chicodoodoo]

We just need to be very careful about the labels we use and how ready we are to apply them.

I'm sure we can all agree on that. If sociopaths are indeed leading us, I think we can also all agree that we have a critical problem. It may be the root problem behind nearly everything that ails us as a society. So I'm curious how others familiar with sociopathy see our leaders. If we examine the behavior of well-known and powerful people in leadership positions, do we find sociopathic behavior? Do we find actual sociopaths, or are we abusing the label? To me, people like Obama, Bush (father and son), Cheney, Kissinger, Brzezinski, Clinton, Johnson, Tony Blair (it's not just America with this problem), Saddam Hussein, and a host of others in high positions are indeed sociopaths. They have nearly all the classic signposts that are used to identify sociopaths. Research and study continue to provide me with a preponderance of evidence to support labeling them as sociopaths. Are they? Are we in a heap of trouble? Can this problem be fixed? How?

[enfoldedblue]

When you have complete detachment WITHOUT LOVE you get sociopaths... When you have complete detachment WITH LOVE you get Saints.

[Sol Va]

I would venture a guess that they are SO lost, it must be like living as a ghost
among real flesh and blood humans.

My therapist says they feel/are completely and utterly alone.


I have researched a couple of years ago and concluded on the nature of psychopathy. Though it is not a totally final conclusion. These psychotics and sociopaths are inherently broken consciousness, not really human at all. It looks as if their being is similar to a rendition of the so claimed 'Reptilian nature'. This type of human are so very lost.

[Sol Va]

Given that there are also a very high percentage of politicians and power seekers who are also Narcissists, as in, Narcissistic personality disorder, and not all the narcissists are sociopaths, (some of the narcissists have no empathy but do have a conscience) then the question of which leaders are your garden variety narcissist and which are the more destructive sociopath is a very interesting line of inquiry.

I have noticed that the narcissist LOVES applause, they react like a two or three year old who Loves all the attention. It fills them up with a joyful sense of importance. And the narcissist is often quite satisfied with this. Providing they get their applause on a continual basis. I think many musicians are narcissists, for example. The applause
to them is everything.

The Sociopath does not get a high off of applause. They have to much contempt/hatred for people in general to care what anyone thinks of them. They keep up a facade to hide their true motives, NOT like the narcissist, who is in LOVE with their facade.

I am only guessing here, but Obama to me looks like a narcissist, so happy to inflate and prance around. Same with Clinton.
Cheney, on the other hand has that hateful smirk, like he knows anyone he talks with is just a worthless peon that he would like to squash.
Anyone who gets off on hurting others is exhibiting sociopathology.



We just need to be very careful about the labels we use and how ready we are to apply them.

I'm sure we can all agree on that. If sociopaths are indeed leading us, I think we can also all agree that we have a critical problem. It may be the root problem behind nearly everything that ails us as a society. So I'm curious how others familiar with sociopathy see our leaders. If we examine the behavior of well-known and powerful people in leadership positions, do we find sociopathic behavior? Do we find actual sociopaths, or are we abusing the label? To me, people like Obama, Bush (father and son), Cheney, Kissinger, Brzezinski, Clinton, Johnson, Tony Blair (it's not just America with this problem), Saddam Hussein, and a host of others in high positions are indeed sociopaths. They have nearly all the classic signposts that are used to identify sociopaths. Research and study continue to provide me with a preponderance of evidence to support labeling them as sociopaths. Are they? Are we in a heap of trouble? Can this problem be fixed? How?

[Sol Va]

Narcissism is a more complex phenomenon, I think, because healthy people have what is called, healthy narcissism.. that is a healthy amount of self-importance, love of expressing that self, a sense of self-celebration. Within limits this is truly positive, uplifting and charming. But without the ability to value another person, which is where narcissism comes in, the self-infatuation is merely infantilism. The narcissist lives only to gain everything for themselves because other people are only a reflection of themselves.

Sociopathy is not something that healthy people have any part of. Living and acting without a conscience and with the malevolent desires to hurt others is truly sick. I would even go so far as to say they might have done away with or at the least not developed their soul. (Depending on whether you think everyone is born with a soul, or whether we are here to have a chance to develop a soul). Sure we all at times have wished revenge or failure on certain
people usually who have hurt us, but to ACT on this by plotting to do them is, that is sociopathy.

If there was ever an examination to weed out from the people in power who are most destructive, I think it would be important to distinguish between
the narcissists and sociopaths. The narcissists have a place (I hate to say this) in being celebrities, in entertaining the rest of us. It is my belief that the true sociopaths should all be locked up. (Unless there is a permanent cure found.)

[trenairio]

[edit][edit][edit]

[andywight]

We just need to be very careful about the labels we use and how ready we are to apply them.

I'm sure we can all agree on that. If sociopaths are indeed leading us, I think we can also all agree that we have a critical problem. It may be the root problem behind nearly everything that ails us as a society. So I'm curious how others familiar with sociopathy see our leaders. If we examine the behavior of well-known and powerful people in leadership positions, do we find sociopathic behavior? Do we find actual sociopaths, or are we abusing the label? To me, people like Obama, Bush (father and son), Cheney, Kissinger, Brzezinski, Clinton, Johnson, Tony Blair (it's not just America with this problem), Saddam Hussein, and a host of others in high positions are indeed sociopaths. They have nearly all the classic signposts that are used to identify sociopaths. Research and study continue to provide me with a preponderance of evidence to support labeling them as sociopaths. Are they? Are we in a heap of trouble? Can this problem be fixed? How?

Yes they are, a normal person wouldn't make it in today's dog eat dog political world.
Yes we are in a heap of trouble.
Yes this problem can be fixed.
Inform the general public of the problem, make political candidates take psychological tests and don't vote for them.
OK in the real world that might be easier said than done, but its like war, if the common man doesn't show up to fight what could they do?

It's time for ordinary people to stand up and say "stop, we've had enough of your bulls##t".

[Chicodoodoo]

When you have complete detachment WITHOUT LOVE you get sociopaths... When you have complete detachment WITH LOVE you get Saints.

This does not make sense to me, since love encourages attachment, not detachment. "Complete detachment with love" feels like an oxymoron to me. Did I miss something here?

[andywight]

Sol Va sorry but I have to disagree with you about sociopaths having to much contempt/hatred for people in general to care about what anyone thinks of them.
From my experience I believe that they are as equally devoid of contempt/hatred as they are of empathy/compassion.

[ceetee9]

I think you have touched on an important point inherent in all psychiatric diagnosis. Because that's really what this is, a diagnosis which is then given a label. I'm sorry but I don't think your witch analogy bears much weight in this discussion. Apples and Oranges. This is not the 1600s and there are plenty of advocates, lawyers, etc., around to make sure there is no "witch hunt." So I wouldn't worry about it. What concerns me are the rights of victims, not the perpetrators as such, although everyone deserves justice. Good point, though. Thanks.

Surely you jest? You totally missed my point. You can't seriously believe that there aren't thousands, if not millions, of people who aren't ready to label someone a "sociopath" or any other negative label you can think of in order to have a target to hate and/or to crucify. Nowhere in my discussion was I talking about who's rights are being infringed upon. I'm totally concerned with the rights of victims, but I'm equally concerned with the rights of people who are wrongly accused/labeled.

I think we can all agree that people who care only of themselves and who will stop at nothing to get what they desire no matter the cost are not good people and surely should not be controlling us.

[Sol Va]

Then why do they get such a thrill from destroying other people?


Sol Va sorry but I have to disagree with you about sociopaths having to much contempt/hatred for people in general to care about what anyone thinks of them.
From my experience I believe that they are as equally devoid of contempt/hatred as they are of empathy/compassion.

[Chicodoodoo]

I am only guessing here, but Obama to me looks like a narcissist, so happy to inflate and prance around. Same with Clinton..

The true Powers-That-Be are almost guaranteed to all be sociopaths, in my opinion. The insane state of the world is strong evidence for it. I have no doubt that these sociopaths are cunning enough to use narcissists for their "window puppets" that are tasked with delivering the newest deception to the masses. If the public doesn't buy it, the puppets get blamed and take the fall, leaving the shadowy PTB to try again. This strategy is surely standard operating procedure for the PTB, which would explain their long and "successful" reign.

[andywight]

Then why do they get such a thrill from destroying other people?


Sol Va sorry but I have to disagree with you about sociopaths having to much contempt/hatred for people in general to care about what anyone thinks of them.
From my experience I believe that they are as equally devoid of contempt/hatred as they are of empathy/compassion.

Sol Va I am in the unfortunate position of knowing a sociopath personally. I'm not a trained psychiatrist and can can only draw from my own experiences and from that experience I would have to say I really don't think they feel anything that you or I could relate to as emotions. Destroy you or not destroy you, its not important to them, for them its all about control.
All you need to do is take away their power, without power they just become a harmless curiosity's.

Would love to know what Dale thinks, he posted earlier on this tread.

[enfoldedblue]

When you have complete detachment WITHOUT LOVE you get sociopaths... When you have complete detachment WITH LOVE you get Saints.

This does not make sense to me, since love encourages attachment, not detachment. "Complete detachment with love" feels like an oxymoron to me. Did I miss something here?

I think you're right most love does involve attachment of some kind, but the highest form of love....unconditional love....is without any attachment. Just pure love that is not dependent on anything else. That's why I said saints (but it could be any fully realized being). To me this state is the opposite of the sociopath who is completely devoid of love and compassion. Probably most of us fall somewhere between these two states of being.

Any way I hope that helps clarify my point.

[Flash]

We just need to be very careful about the labels we use and how ready we are to apply them.

I'm sure we can all agree on that. If sociopaths are indeed leading us, I think we can also all agree that we have a critical problem. It may be the root problem behind nearly everything that ails us as a society. So I'm curious how others familiar with sociopathy see our leaders. If we examine the behavior of well-known and powerful people in leadership positions, do we find sociopathic behavior? Do we find actual sociopaths, or are we abusing the label? To me, people like Obama, Bush (father and son), Cheney, Kissinger, Brzezinski, Clinton, Johnson, Tony Blair (it's not just America with this problem), Saddam Hussein, and a host of others in high positions are indeed sociopaths. They have nearly all the classic signposts that are used to identify sociopaths. Research and study continue to provide me with a preponderance of evidence to support labeling them as sociopaths. Are they? Are we in a heap of trouble? Can this problem be fixed? How?

I read a profile analysis of Sarkozy president of France, quite well done in a psy magazine and the conclusion was that he "probably" had many sociopathic traits (they were writing about their president, they were careful). Our prime minister in Canada surely shows some traits as well, although on the clumsy side sometimes IMHO.

So yes, it is not just US politician although there is an outstanding collection there.

[Sol Va]

Yes so if you dont want these selfish ones to have control, how would YOU get rid of them?



I think you have touched on an important point inherent in all psychiatric diagnosis. Because that's really what this is, a diagnosis which is then given a label. I'm sorry but I don't think your witch analogy bears much weight in this discussion. Apples and Oranges. This is not the 1600s and there are plenty of advocates, lawyers, etc., around to make sure there is no "witch hunt." So I wouldn't worry about it. What concerns me are the rights of victims, not the perpetrators as such, although everyone deserves justice. Good point, though. Thanks.

Surely you jest? You totally missed my point. You can't seriously believe that there aren't thousands, if not millions, of people who aren't ready to label someone a "sociopath" or any other negative label you can think of in order to have a target to hate and/or to crucify. Nowhere in my discussion was I talking about who's rights are being infringed upon. I'm totally concerned with the rights of victims, but I'm equally concerned with the rights of people who are wrongly accused/labeled.

I think we can all agree that people who care only of themselves and who will stop at nothing to get what they desire no matter the cost are not good people and surely should not be controlling us.

[Sol Va]

So you are saying that power is what they are after. Then how come they are not satisfied with having power and doing GOOD?
There must be an emotion or aspect there that causes them to do evil acts.
What is it?
Is there inherantly more power in destruction that construction? I dont think so.

The sociopath that you know may not have felt hatred,
but the ones I have known do feel hatred.




Then why do they get such a thrill from destroying other people?


Sol Va sorry but I have to disagree with you about sociopaths having to much contempt/hatred for people in general to care about what anyone thinks of them.
From my experience I believe that they are as equally devoid of contempt/hatred as they are of empathy/compassion.

Sol Va I am in the unfortunate position of knowing a sociopath personally. I'm not a trained psychiatrist and can can only draw from my own experiences and from that experience I would have to say I really don't think they feel anything that you or I could relate to as emotions. Destroy you or not destroy you, its not important to them, for them its all about control.
All you need to do is take away their power, without power they just become a harmless curiosity's.

Would love to know what Dale thinks, he posted earlier on this tread.

[Dale]

What can I help clarify/contribute to with regard to sociopathy?

[Sol Va]

I absolutely agree with you Chicodoodoo,
for certain the controllers are sociopaths.
And they use the narcissists for their own ends.

I had a narcissist admit to me that they really admire sociopaths
and wish they could have been one, because they could have gotten
much more out of life if they had no conscience.
The N's are easy to bait and use by the sociopaths.

I bet the Sociopaths LOVE to dethrone the puppet narcissists since all
they care about is being admired, adored.

Poor Narcissists... haha I dont think I have ever felt that before LOLOL

[Sol Va]

Well just to beg the point, I believe that the highest love is when one IS attached to the outcome because it means so
much, has so much value. Sacrifice, for example. When one person gives their life to save another. That's the highest love.

Detachment is overrated. I celebrate and love attachment and the passion of life. I'm pretty sure some "saints" are
passionate people.




When you have complete detachment WITHOUT LOVE you get sociopaths... When you have complete detachment WITH LOVE you get Saints.

This does not make sense to me, since love encourages attachment, not detachment. "Complete detachment with love" feels like an oxymoron to me. Did I miss something here?

I think you're right most love does involve attachment of some kind, but the highest form of love....unconditional love....is without any attachment. Just pure love that is not dependent on anything else. That's why I said saints (but it could be any fully realized being). To me this state is the opposite of the sociopath who is completely devoid of love and compassion. Probably most of us fall somewhere between these two states of being.

Any way I hope that helps clarify my point.

[andywight]

What can I help clarify/contribute to with regard to sociopathy?

Hi Dale,
do you think a sociopath can feel hatred?

[andywight]

[QUOTE=Sol Va;123416]So you are saying that power is what they are after. Then how come they are not satisfied with having power and doing GOOD?
There must be an emotion or aspect there that causes them to do evil acts.
What is it?
Is there inherantly more power in destruction that construction? I dont think so.

The sociopath that you know may not have felt hatred,
but the ones I have known do feel hatred.

Good point, maybe theirs a whole bunch of sociopaths out there doing good, we just don't notice them.

[Dale]

Yes, a "sociopath" would very likely feel hatred. By "hatred," I do assume you mean a strong disliking toward an object, idea, or person. "Sociopaths" are humans, though they lack an empathetic connection and tend to show narcissistic traits - not to be confused with a narcissist, however.

[enfoldedblue]

Well just to beg the point, I believe that the highest love is when one IS attached to the outcome because it means so
much, has so much value. Sacrifice, for example. When one person gives their life to save another. That's the highest love.

Detachment is overrated. I celebrate and love attachment and the passion of life. I'm pretty sure some "saints" are
passionate people.




When you have complete detachment WITHOUT LOVE you get sociopaths... When you have complete detachment WITH LOVE you get Saints.

This does not make sense to me, since love encourages attachment, not detachment. "Complete detachment with love" feels like an oxymoron to me. Did I miss something here?

I think you're right most love does involve attachment of some kind, but the highest form of love....unconditional love....is without any attachment. Just pure love that is not dependent on anything else. That's why I said saints (but it could be any fully realized being). To me this state is the opposite of the sociopath who is completely devoid of love and compassion. Probably most of us fall somewhere between these two states of being.

Any way I hope that helps clarify my point.

I like your perspective, but for me when I find myself in a state where I sit so firmly in love that I don't need anything from anyone, and I can love everyone for exaclty who they are, this is when I experience true joy and freedom. It doesn't mean I don't have passion, or want to connect with people, or relish life, it just means that I do all that because I want to...not cause I need to.
I hope to experience this state more!

[andywight]

Are we confusing a Sociopaths strong dislike toward an object, idea, or person with maybe just their feelings of a treat to their ability to wield power over something/somebody?

[Sol Va]

Actually the sociopaths I know do charity work and other professional works that are "good" to keep up their outer facade. Like narcissists they can be quite outwardly functional... and not everyone is their target. But it is not because they enjoy contributing. Not from what they have TOLD me.


[QUOTE=Sol Va;123416]So you are saying that power is what they are after. Then how come they are not satisfied with having power and doing GOOD?
There must be an emotion or aspect there that causes them to do evil acts.
What is it?
Is there inherantly more power in destruction that construction? I dont think so.

The sociopath that you know may not have felt hatred,
but the ones I have known do feel hatred.

Good point, maybe theirs a whole bunch of sociopaths out there doing good, we just don't notice them.

[andywight]

Beware Sol Va, when talking with a sociopaths, if their lips moving when speaking to you the chances are their not telling you the truth. No disrespect intended.

[Sol Va]

Thank you Andywight.
I know how to protect myself from them. ;)


Beware Sol Va, when talking with a sociopaths, if their lips moving when speaking to you the chances are their not telling you the truth. No disrespect intended.

[andywight]

Going back to the original question, yes people with ASPD look human, whether they possess all the qualities that are supposed to make you human I think not.

[Chicodoodoo]

It's clear that sociopaths come in many subtle flavors, and that is surely one reason it is hard to identify them, or label them, with perfect accuracy. Despite this difficulty, it's a safe bet to say that those with sociopathic tendencies should not be in any leadership position that is connected with improving the common good. That would mean sociopaths should be banned from controlling positions in government, law, and business. Yet, because of their pathology, this is precisely where they “succeed” so brilliantly. But their success is at our expense, and the cost that we, the vast majority, incur is always rising on an exponential path. The common good is being utterly destroyed.

This problem can be fixed. Yes, there is a danger of it turning into a witch-hunt, and that should be borne in mind. However, the damage being addressed here is of such magnitude that it warrants almost any attempt at corrective action.

The real problem will not be identifying the sociopaths, as useful tests can surely be developed and improved with use. Once identified, there may very well be niches in our society where sociopaths can actually contribute to the common good while exercising their “talents”.

The real problem will be removing the well-entrenched sociopathic power structure that has dominated our world for centuries and around which society has been evolving, effectively bolstering that entrenchment. Already, in order to head off any such rumblings from the masses, sociopaths proactively resist through the political facade (the illusion of self-government), the media propaganda machine, the entertainment distractions, and all the other dumbing-down and mind control strategies. And should all that fail and a confrontation actually materialize, given the power they wield, organized sociopaths make a true Goliath despite their tiny numbers.

So, what does our David look like?

[Calz]

Are sociopaths to be considered “human”?


This was convincingly presented in the recent book "Political Ponerology” by Lobaczewski .



Fantastic book. Most people have no way to relate. This gives insight into the working of the mind of this type of person.

[Star Gazer]

Are humans sociopaths?

[Chicodoodoo]

Are humans sociopaths?

When they follow directions given by sociopathic leaders, yes.

[andywight]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ui9C6xVpVf0

[jorr lundstrom]

It's clear that sociopaths come in many subtle flavors, and that is surely one reason it is hard to identify them, or label them, with perfect accuracy. Despite this difficulty, it's a safe bet to say that those with sociopathic tendencies should not be in any leadership position that is connected with improving the common good. That would mean sociopaths should be banned from controlling positions in government, law, and business. Yet, because of their pathology, this is precisely where they “succeed” so brilliantly. But their success is at our expense, and the cost that we, the vast majority, incur is always rising on an exponential path. The common good is being utterly destroyed.

This problem can be fixed. Yes, there is a danger of it turning into a witch-hunt, and that should be borne in mind. However, the damage being addressed here is of such magnitude that it warrants almost any attempt at corrective action.

The real problem will not be identifying the sociopaths, as useful tests can surely be developed and improved with use. Once identified, there may very well be niches in our society where sociopaths can actually contribute to the common good while exercising their “talents”.

The real problem will be removing the well-entrenched sociopathic power structure that has dominated our world for centuries and around which society has been evolving, effectively bolstering that entrenchment. Already, in order to head off any such rumblings from the masses, sociopaths proactively resist through the political facade (the illusion of self-government), the media propaganda machine, the entertainment distractions, and all the other dumbing-down and mind control strategies. And should all that fail and a confrontation actually materialize, given the power they wield, organized sociopaths make a true Goliath despite their tiny numbers.

So, what does our David look like?

I have worked with sociopaths, both as patients ( nurse in psychiatry) and as workmates, ( scaffolding). I say in every situation involving sociopaths, watch your back. It has basic survival value. It is said that power corrupts. I see it the other way around. Only corrupted people
goes for power in such a ruthless way as sociopaths do. And only to get an opportunity to put their corruption into play. Yes they are human,
but of a kind you never should place in a powerful position. And they are over all those positions today. LOL
I was thinking the other day about a situation of game over, and the sociopaths as losers. Do you really think they just leave their
destructive play things and walk away? Dont you think they would activate them a last time, just to show that they can? LOL

[ceetee9]

Yes so if you dont want these selfish ones to have control, how would YOU get rid of them?



I think you have touched on an important point inherent in all psychiatric diagnosis. Because that's really what this is, a diagnosis which is then given a label. I'm sorry but I don't think your witch analogy bears much weight in this discussion. Apples and Oranges. This is not the 1600s and there are plenty of advocates, lawyers, etc., around to make sure there is no "witch hunt." So I wouldn't worry about it. What concerns me are the rights of victims, not the perpetrators as such, although everyone deserves justice. Good point, though. Thanks.

Surely you jest? You totally missed my point. You can't seriously believe that there aren't thousands, if not millions, of people who aren't ready to label someone a "sociopath" or any other negative label you can think of in order to have a target to hate and/or to crucify. Nowhere in my discussion was I talking about who's rights are being infringed upon. I'm totally concerned with the rights of victims, but I'm equally concerned with the rights of people who are wrongly accused/labeled.

I think we can all agree that people who care only of themselves and who will stop at nothing to get what they desire no matter the cost are not good people and surely should not be controlling us.

If I knew the answer to that question, I would be doing much more than just blogging.

However, there is one thing we might consider. As many have pointed out, these people are all about power and control and one of the primary things that enable them to maintain power and control is great wealth (or control of great wealth). Perhaps if we eliminated the need for money by moving to something like a contributionist society their house of cards would collapse. I realize that that is a simplistic statement and there would be many things that would have to be worked out to make such a society work, but it is doable. Think of the ETs. While I don't know for a fact, I'd be willing to bet they don't have a monetary system that drives their societies.

[pintorider]

It's clear that sociopaths come in many subtle flavors, and that is surely one reason it is hard to identify them, or label them, with perfect accuracy. Despite this difficulty, it's a safe bet to say that those with sociopathic tendencies should not be in any leadership position that is connected with improving the common good. That would mean sociopaths should be banned from controlling positions in government, law, and business. Yet, because of their pathology, this is precisely where they “succeed” so brilliantly. But their success is at our expense, and the cost that we, the vast majority, incur is always rising on an exponential path. The common good is being utterly destroyed.

This problem can be fixed. Yes, there is a danger of it turning into a witch-hunt, and that should be borne in mind. However, the damage being addressed here is of such magnitude that it warrants almost any attempt at corrective action.

The real problem will not be identifying the sociopaths, as useful tests can surely be developed and improved with use. Once identified, there may very well be niches in our society where sociopaths can actually contribute to the common good while exercising their “talents”.

The real problem will be removing the well-entrenched sociopathic power structure that has dominated our world for centuries and around which society has been evolving, effectively bolstering that entrenchment. Already, in order to head off any such rumblings from the masses, sociopaths proactively resist through the political facade (the illusion of self-government), the media propaganda machine, the entertainment distractions, and all the other dumbing-down and mind control strategies. And should all that fail and a confrontation actually materialize, given the power they wield, organized sociopaths make a true Goliath despite their tiny numbers.

So, what does our David look like?


Man, Chic, that was a good post. You kinda said it all there. NOw where do we go from here? It sure would *nice* if we could solve this problem for "da kids."

[Chicodoodoo]

.Perhaps if we eliminated the need for money by moving to something like a contributionist society their house of cards would collapse.

I often think of Alex Collier's comments about the ET society he interacted with, about how they have no money and find the whole concept ludicrous. Their society, as described by Alex, appears very much to be of the contributionist type.

I agree that money is the critical tool that sociopaths use to buy our complicity, and a contributionist society would completely eliminate sociopaths as a problem (I think...). Unless they can eventually convince enough of us that money is a valuable contribution to society, and then convince us that allowing them to control the creation of money is valuable to society, and then ..... Hey, wait a minute! Didn't they already do that?!!!!

So maybe their deceptive and controlling behavior is the problem. They fool us to control us and enrich themselves at our expense. Or maybe we have the problem because we are too easily fooled. As in fool me once, shame on you -- fool me twice, shame on me. Non-sociopaths definitely camp in the first part of that saying, while sociopaths permanently reside in the second part. By that I mean non-sociopaths feel that fooling anyone is shameful, and so they avoid that behavior. Sociopaths feel no shame and find they are rewarded by fooling people, so they pursue that behavior.

What sociopaths have is a behavior problem, caused by an emotional deficit (the lack of empathy). Taking their tools away does not change their behavior.

[Chicodoodoo]

Video = Corporation: Clinical diagnosis

Fantastic post! That video basically lays out the case that corporations are sociopathic. I think it is clear that corporations definitely lack empathy, shame, and remorse. They also lie whenever necessary, and they deny responsibility whenever caught doing damage to others. So it's no surprise they behave just like sociopaths.

And government has become nothing but a giant corporation, one that is gigantically sociopathic.

[andywight]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jYP9JShyXAc&feature=related

[Chicodoodoo]

This was an active and thriving thread until someone moved it out of the "Rulers of the World - the Charles material" forum and into the “News and Updates” forum. When the move occurred, all activity stopped. I was baffled myself, as I couldn't find my own thread anymore! I have asked two moderators (Richard and Bill Ryan) that it be moved back to its original location, but I have had no reply from either.

I would think a thread discussing sociopaths very much belongs in a “Rulers of the World” forum, and not in a “News and Updates” forum. “Charles” and the group of 33 were among the subjects being discussed. If you would like to see this thread come alive again, please join me in asking that it be returned to its original location.

[sjkted]

Perhaps it's a little too close to the Charles material for the mod's comfort and ends up creating a little too much dissonance...

--sjkted

[giovonni]

i agree, why the move? The General Discussion column would of been the most logical alternative column, but still why the move?

[Sol Va]

News? Sociopaths have been around for centuries or more. General? Not unless the sociopath wants you to salute them. Rulers of the world. Yes. This is their greatest desire and by the results of how the world works, how many of the main deciders do you think have empathy or a conscience?

If the word sociopathic does not apply to the 33. I would like to know.

[sjkted]

One thing I find very interesting about sociopaths as I have researched them in contrast with the world as I see it today is that most sociopaths do not seem to have big plans -- they tend to be spontaneous, follow "inclinations" and do not have any real "goals" for their future or a concept of what they want to do or who they want to be at a later date.

The group that is running the show on this planet is very definitely sociopaths which brings one to the question: how is it that they are so organized, have such a detailed plan that is followed to the utmost detail when our real-life examples do not tend to follow the same path?

I've given some additional thought to the idea that humanity needs to "grow up" spiritually and I have to say I just don't buy it. 3000 years ago before we were "civilized", people lived in harmony with the planet in large family groups (tribes). Those people would not have created the world of pain and suffering we live in today and had they been allowed to follow a path and develop technology it would have been sustainable tech -- free energy and "medicine" that benefited the people, rather than making them sick. One could ask what happened to these people. The only answer I have is genocide. And the perpetrators are of course who else: the sociopaths in control.

--sjkted

[Sol Va]

Tonight I have created a new group here at Avalon, a support and informational group for people who have been hurt, dissapointed or betrayed by Narcissists and/or Sociopaths. The offensive or neglectful perpetrator can be a parent, child, boss, sibling, husband, wife, lover or friend.
This is a private group of healing, support, humor and recovery.
Send me a private message if you would like to be included.
Love and healing,
Sol

[Chicodoodoo]

how is it that they are so organized, have such a detailed plan

Sociopaths have the uncanny ability to recognize other sociopaths almost at a glance. They quietly group together and organize for mutual protection, and those sociopaths with good planning skills and exceptional cunning become the “elite” at the top of their hierarchical pyramid.

Sociopaths do what they do to survive in a world populated by caring people that would not tolerate them if the sociopaths were readily identifiable. Now that sociopaths rule the world, the tables are turned. Non-sociopaths are in danger and need to take steps to survive in a world run by sociopaths intent on reducing the population of non-sociopaths. The good news is that the sociopaths are much easier to identify now – they are our leaders.

This really is a matter of survival, and always has been. Sociopaths have always known it and planned accordingly, which is why they are dominant. Non-sociopaths just didn't have a clue and pretty much still don't, which is why they are dominated.

[pintorider]

I read that the way to identify the sociopaths in any organization is to "look at the top." Pretty good rule of thumb if carefully applied. And thanks for starting this thread. BTW, I keep up with it and can find it easily because I'm set up to receive email notices of new responses in the thread.

[Flash]

Yes, in fact they are very flexible, follow the trend if needed, then recoup for their own interest. However, they will never let their interrest out of sight. It may look as not having long term plans, but I see it more as flexibility (contrarily to narcissists who are not that flexible). Obviously this is only my humble opinion.


One thing I find very interesting about sociopaths as I have researched them in contrast with the world as I see it today is that most sociopaths do not seem to have big plans -- they tend to be spontaneous, follow "inclinations" and do not have any real "goals" for their future or a concept of what they want to do or who they want to be at a later date.

The group that is running the show on this planet is very definitely sociopaths which brings one to the question: how is it that they are so organized, have such a detailed plan that is followed to the utmost detail when our real-life examples do not tend to follow the same path?

I've given some additional thought to the idea that humanity needs to "grow up" spiritually and I have to say I just don't buy it. 3000 years ago before we were "civilized", people lived in harmony with the planet in large family groups (tribes). Those people would not have created the world of pain and suffering we live in today and had they been allowed to follow a path and develop technology it would have been sustainable tech -- free energy and "medicine" that benefited the people, rather than making them sick. One could ask what happened to these people. The only answer I have is genocide. And the perpetrators are of course who else: the sociopaths in control.

--sjkted

[Flash]

I had lost the thread too. May be the title should be: Is Charles a sociopath, is the machine a sociopath, is....." The thread would probably get overwhelmed with comments of all kind.

I think as well that some of the posters in the sociopath thread were having this question in mind, they wanted to have tools to be able to decipher, at the leat, whom they were dealing with.

They also wanted to understand the standing of some of the 33.

As some posters said to Atticus in one of Charles' thread, give us more information so that we can decided with an "englightened" mind. lol. They were right. And part of being enlightened towards proper decision making is having the tools necessary to take those decisions.

Some of the tools have to do with behaviors and personality traits in this case, as well as history and other factual information.

This thread in my opinion should go with the other Charles threads.

Chicodoodoo, how do we get the moderators attention, first time I contact them for anything. Tks:eyebrows:


This was an active and thriving thread until someone moved it out of the "Rulers of the World - the Charles material" forum and into the “News and Updates” forum. When the move occurred, all activity stopped. I was baffled myself, as I couldn't find my own thread anymore! I have asked two moderators (Richard and Bill Ryan) that it be moved back to its original location, but I have had no reply from either.

I would think a thread discussing sociopaths very much belongs in a “Rulers of the World” forum, and not in a “News and Updates” forum. “Charles” and the group of 33 were among the subjects being discussed. If you would like to see this thread come alive again, please join me in asking that it be returned to its original location.

[giovonni]

:yo:
Much thanks to the Avalon Administrators ~ for moving this thread to its new ( most appropriate) General Discussion home!

[sjkted]

Thank you to the mods. And now back to the sociopaths ... :-)

--sjkted

[andywight]

What do you call a sociopath with rich parents? Mr President :madgrin:

[Chicodoodoo]

I still think the most appropriate place for this thread is the "Rulers of the World" forum (since sociopaths are the effective rulers of the world). I wonder if the amount of traffic there is causing server problems, so they are "thinning the ranks" so to speak. It's too bad, because the activity in that forum created a lot of interest in sociopaths. It is such an important subject, being the root of our problems in my mind and in the minds of many others that are familiar with sociopaths. The solution to most of our problems begins with educating people about how to recognize a sociopath and why we don't want them leading us. That's what I would like to see this thread do. I'm convinced that if sociopaths were identified and banned from leadership positions, this world would be a completely different place (and oh so much better).

[Chicodoodoo]

What do you call a sociopath with rich parents? Mr President :madgrin:

Or "Hillary Clinton". And if sociopaths have their way (they pretty much always do, judging from the last ten decades), maybe "Ms. President" in 2012. Please, kill me now, before I live to see it....

[noxon medem]

It is a saying, that says
- you can not kill evil,
it has to change.

I guess exceptions excist
to that rule ...

nm

[giovonni]

thinking about him tonight ~ (RIP) George Carlin ~

speaking to the Washington Press Corp...about...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SKftRlzh2RM&feature=related

and about

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hYIC0eZYEtI&feature=related

[Sol Va]

I agree with you that the world would be a much better place if our leaders ALL had consciences and empathy.
How to make this happen?

It's such a big and important question.
I think it deserves a whole section!


I still think the most appropriate place for this thread is the "Rulers of the World" forum (since sociopaths are the effective rulers of the world). I wonder if the amount of traffic there is causing server problems, so they are "thinning the ranks" so to speak. It's too bad, because the activity in that forum created a lot of interest in sociopaths. It is such an important subject, being the root of our problems in my mind and in the minds of many others that are familiar with sociopaths. The solution to most of our problems begins with educating people about how to recognize a sociopath and why we don't want them leading us. That's what I would like to see this thread do. I'm convinced that if sociopaths were identified and banned from leadership positions, this world would be a completely different place (and oh so much better).

[sjkted]

I think this could use a massive education campaign with people handing out flyers and infomercial-type brief clips. We have these for basic consumer protections like hiring an authorized/licensed (***fill in the blank***) or how to be safe with (***fill in the blank****). I think that we could do a great service just by educating people that sociopaths exist, what it means, and the tremendous impact they have on individuals as well as society.

I think the big realization is that this is not a small problem like people who suffer from mental disorders like schizophrenia or the like -- this is something really big that has had a big impact on everyone whether it be family member, neighbor, boss, etc. or if they have just been affected by lawmakers.

--sjkted

[Chicodoodoo]

I think this could use a massive education campaign

I expressed similar thoughts in a conversation with a friend in my profile.


As for the current predicament. I thought about one of your last posts regarding the public changing things when they understand the truth: The sad thing is, they don't want to know.


I think what is actually happening is that they don't know that they want to know! We are being kept ignorant and distracted for a reason, and I believe that is the fundamental reason. Everyone wants to know if they are being taken in a con-game, but in the heat of the moment, when the game has your complete attention, anyone trying to tell you anything is sent packing with "Don't bother me now, I'm busy."

What can be done? We have to insist on interrupting the con-game. We have to expose the con. We have to show how the game is run. We have to show how the game will end, and what the victim will lose. We have to educate.

[pintorider]

I like this. This is something real and practical. We have at our disposal the amazing internet. Also all the old schools methods previously mentioned, flyers, posters, etcetera.

[andywight]

I think most members that have posted to this thread so far are of the same general opinion, sociopaths in society are a problem, but sociopaths in positions of real power are the greatest threat to the future of this planet.
There has to be a cure for this!
Everything I've read so far says "no".
So is their anyone out there that might know of one?
This forum would certainly be a great place to discuss a cure for this condition, also of course being a place where one could air your ideas without any risk of damaging your career, if you were in that Field of expertise.

:attention:

[sjkted]

andywright:

I don't think we need to provide "the solution". I think we need to educate people that this is a serious condition and that sociopaths are often megalomaniacs who seek power and are good at manipulating others, thus very often end up in positions of power and since they lack morality or empathy will always abuse their power to the greatest extent they can profit from it.

Once enough people understand this and can start to see what is happening, the solutions will come from every direction.

We also need to do everything we can to make sure this doesn't turn into a witch hunt.

--sjkted

[sjkted]

It is a saying, that says
- you can not kill evil,
it has to change.

I guess exceptions excist
to that rule ...

nm

I think part of it is that sociopaths attempt to leverage their power to take what they can from unsuspecting people. The power they have is only as strong as what others give to them. If the general populace becomes informed and is able to spot what they are doing, everyone will withdraw their consent and the amount of power the sociopaths have will shrink to irrelevant.

--sjkted

[giovonni]

I agree with you that the world would be a much better place if our leaders ALL had consciences and empathy.
How to make this happen?

It's such a big and important question.
I think it deserves a whole section!


I still think the most appropriate place for this thread is the "Rulers of the World" forum (since sociopaths are the effective rulers of the world). I wonder if the amount of traffic there is causing server problems, so they are "thinning the ranks" so to speak. It's too bad, because the activity in that forum created a lot of interest in sociopaths. It is such an important subject, being the root of our problems in my mind and in the minds of many others that are familiar with sociopaths. The solution to most of our problems begins with educating people about how to recognize a sociopath and why we don't want them leading us. That's what I would like to see this thread do. I'm convinced that if sociopaths were identified and banned from leadership positions, this world would be a completely different place (and oh so much better).

Whereas, i agree (and sense) that Chicodoodoo original selection of placing this thread in the Charles material column, was most appropriate and very insightful to its subject matter. We all must remember this is a private forum, and we are guest here. In many ways, the moving of this thread from its original intended place speaks volumes to the ongoing fears of human kind in regards to these types of individuals. i sense Charles like all of us here, deserves a chance to awaken and remove himself from this most dark and deepen slumber upon this plane. That we are allowed to continue this discussion (on this forum), speaks positive of the lifting of that veil from over the darkness and out into the Light.

[andywight]

andywright:

I don't think we need to provide "the solution". I think we need to educate people that this is a serious condition and that sociopaths are often megalomaniacs who seek power and are good at manipulating others, thus very often end up in positions of power and since they lack morality or empathy will always abuse their power to the greatest extent they can profit from it.

Once enough people understand this and can start to see what is happening, the solutions will come from every direction.

We also need to do everything we can to make sure this doesn't turn into a witch hunt.

--sjkted

Hi sjkted,
I hope referring to me as "andywright" was in reference to me being right all the time.

:humble:

Maybe a good old fashion witch hunt is just what this planet needs? 70,000,000 or so sociopaths burnt at the stake seems pretty reasonable to me compared to the option of them reducing ours down to 500,000,000.
Just a thought!

[trenairio]

[edit][edit][edit]

[Chicodoodoo]

andywright: I don't think we need to provide "the solution". I think we need to educate people that this is a serious condition and that sociopaths are often megalomaniacs who seek power and are good at manipulating others, thus very often end up in positions of power and since they lack morality or empathy will always abuse their power to the greatest extent they can profit from it.

Educating people is the first part of the solution, and a very critical part. The people would not need to be educated if the authorities could be trusted to address the problem, but in this case, the authorities are the problem. The solution must be imposed by the people, which requires that they be educated on the subject.


Once enough people understand this and can start to see what is happening, the solutions will come from every direction.

Indeed they will.


We also need to do everything we can to make sure this doesn't turn into a witch hunt.

If the second part of the the solution is to simply prohibit those identified with sociopathic tendencies from occupying positions of leadership or control, it is a very innocuous solution. No one is really hurt. Even if we over-react, it would only mean that some non-sociopaths would be excluded from leadership/control positions. Given that non-sociopaths tend to avoid those positions anyway, again no harm is done. With sociopaths making up less than 5% of the population, one could easily set a maximum limit on the percentage of the population that can be prohibited from positions of power, say 5% or 10%. That would act as a limiting safeguard.

[Chicodoodoo]

That psychopaths/sociopaths - call them what you will, are not humans as we understand human beings to be. They are something very different altogether. They are not “us”.

(Note: This above is not a quote from trenario, but from an article trenario is posting as reference.)

While it is true that the "us" versus "them" division has been over-employed throughout history, much to our mutual detriment as humans, this may be one instance where it is not only appropriate, but necessary. If we fail to make this particular distinction of sociopath versus non-sociopath, we do so not only to our mutual detriment, but also at the risk of our very survival. Indeed, the survival of the entire planet could hang in the balance.

[sjkted]

I wonder if we could get some PhDs or MDs behind this to give it a bit of academic credibility...

--sjkted

[Flash]

For fun:

From Dilbert: How do you call a psychopath in a cubicle? A Co-Worker.

Sociopath in Chief: I’m the Destructor.. oops, I mean Decider
October 23, 2007
tags: Nick Anderson, nwmuse @ TPZooby nwmuse

.Conscience? What conscience? I don’t need no stinking conscience!
Empathy? What’s that? ‘I’m the Destructor’…oops, I mean ‘Decider’! And I get to decide.
I’m still relevant! Its all about me! Me and my money. Heh, heh.
So Congress, just shut up and give me my money so I can fight my war and blow stuff up. Heh, heh.
Sadistic? You bet. Torture? Only if I can watch AND tell you how to do it!
Help sick children? Why would I do that?

Taken from:
http://tpzoo.wordpress.com/2007/10/23/sociopath-in-chief-im-the-destructor-oops-i-mean-decider/
In seriousness:

Very interesting video explaining the complexity of psychopathy, the brain modifications and potential interventions.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zA9-RB3runE&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zA9-RB3runE&feature=related


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mML7VKrRhk8&feature=related

In this third video, minute 2.50 the researchers are starting to talk about suit psychopaths, quite interesting - giving a VP hard times amongst other things.
This is the most interesting part for the regular folks, working in offices.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n7_z41HMnKQ&feature=related

[Flash]

The rest of the videos on the documentary on psychopaths

The nurture of nature dilemna in psychopathy in this video: minute 3.48 wow, a stargate look at it


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZIX19pbQAs0&feature=related

Last video: the nature very strong component of psychopathy and the moral difficulty associated with microchipping their brain to help prevent recidive.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DYYqyRtv7lw&feature=related

[Humble Janitor]

Who are we as fellow human beings, to judge others simply because they are not like us?

Are sociopaths human? I don't know.

Are YOU human?

[Chicodoodoo]

Who are we as fellow human beings, to judge others simply because they are not like us?

We are human beings, and one of our characteristics, which can be seen as both a gift and a curse, is the ability to judge. We can judge foolishly, or we can judge wisely. In the case of sociopaths, we do not judge them simply because they are not like us. We judge them because they are harmful to us. The reason they are harmful to us is because they are not like us. Among other things, they lack empathy, a vital emotion to behaving morally. We tend to behave morally, in a way that does not harm others, whereas they do not. And that is why we have no choice but to judge them. It is the reason things have gotten so out-of-hand, because we have been kept distracted and ignorant of our responsibility to judge those that harm us, and we have been kept that way by those that harm us, because they know what our judgment would be.

[Chicodoodoo]

Very interesting video explaining the complexity of psychopathy, the brain modifications and potential interventions.

Very helpful video -- thanks for posting it. Note that from the perspective of the general public, psychopaths and sociopaths are practically the same thing. I tend to use the word sociopath instead of psychopath because of the name's implication that what the sociopath does is bad for society. People like Bush (father and son), Kissinger, Brzezinski, Hillary and Bill Clinton, Cheney and other power mongers are psychopaths that are very harmful to society, and so I call them sociopaths. These are the psychological deviants that are causing the most damage to our society by a wide margin.

[andywight]

Good to see this thread on the first page again, this is an important topic, thanks everyone.

[Flash]

Have you notice in post 184, first video, minute 3.48, there is what seems an ancient broken stargate. I stumbled on this by chance, listening to the video. Is this only some kind of monument, a trick with the camera and another object or an old stargate? tell me please what you think. TKs
¤=[Post Update]=¤



Very interesting video explaining the complexity of psychopathy, the brain modifications and potential interventions.

Very helpful video -- thanks for posting it. Note that from the perspective of the general public, psychopaths and sociopaths are practically the same thing. I tend to use the word sociopath instead of psychopath because of the name's implication that what the sociopath does is bad for society. People like Bush (father and son), Kissinger, Brzezinski, Hillary and Bill Clinton, Cheney and other power mongers are psychopaths that are very harmful to society, and so I call them sociopaths. These are the psychological deviants that are causing the most damage to our society by a wide margin.

I agree that the general public think more of sociopath for the Dark suit fellonies. May be we should keep the title for the puspose of this thread.

[Chicodoodoo]

Have you notice in post 184, first video, minute 3.48, there is what seems an ancient broken stargate. I stumbled on this by chance, listening to the video. Is this only some kind of monument, a trick with the camera and another object or an old stargate? tell me please what you think.

It's just a nice effect, a change of perspective, from the person filming. He set the video camera on the ground behind a piece of broken glass or pipe to frame the shot and make it more interesting. So it's just a trick with the camera.

[Feren]

Thank you for your invitation. This is a very interesting topic. I believe that sociopaths are something like the remain of a previous stage in human development. They remind us what we used to be as an species. We are afraid of them because it is terrifying for us to see ourselves in the situation of lacking empathy or the situation of being hurt by someone who doesn't feel empathy. Sociopaths are not guilty of being so, neither are they responsible for waht they do since they did not choose to lack empathy. To punish them is useless and injustified.
Now, do we need to protect ourselves from sociopaths? Certainly we do, though I don't believe anyone has the right to exterminate them. Do they control the world? Probably they do. So what can we do against them? I strongly believe they should be neutralized by neutralizing their mechanisms of control: lie, scarcity, fear, ideology. It is about our truth agains their lies. Unveiling the truth about their existence and their strategies is the most reliable way out of slavery. It is at least a good first step.

[Feren]

We judge them because they are harmful to us. The reason they are harmful to us is because they are not like us. Among other things, they lack empathy, a vital emotion to behaving morally. We tend to behave morally, in a way that does not harm others, whereas they do not. And that is why we have no choice but to judge them.

I believe you do not fullly understand the fact of their lacking emapthy. WE can't blame the wolf for eating a lamb: it is part of what they are, it is about the wolf's lack of "empathy" if you like. We are not justified when we say "bad wolf, you ate a lamb". We are only justified to be afraid of the wolf and protect ourselves from him. We can't judge him morally since he is a being incapable of acting morally, at least in the sense you are understanding morality on the basis of empathy.
However it should be remarked that empathy is not the only way to understand morality.

[Chicodoodoo]

I wonder if we could get some PhDs or MDs behind this to give it a bit of academic credibility...

This is another very human characteristic -- our need to have "authority" confirm our perception of truth, as if we are incapable of determining truth ourselves. Of course, "authority" can use this human characteristic to its advantage, especially when that authority is sociopathic. You see, it takes two to tango. One party can give up its autonomy, and the other party can claim it. That is not the type of dance we want, the dance of parasite and host, but that's what we've got. We need a new partner, one that contributes with respect, instead of devouring with disdain. And we need to become a new partner ourselves, one that is still generous in love, but confident in truth and knowledge.

[sjkted]

This is another very human characteristic -- our need to have "authority" confirm our perception of truth, as if we are incapable of determining truth ourselves. Of course, "authority" can use this human characteristic to its advantage, especially when that authority is sociopathic. You see, it takes two to tango. One party can give up its autonomy, and the other party can claim it. That is not the type of dance we want, the dance of parasite and host, but that's what we've got. We need a new partner, one that contributes with respect, instead of devouring with disdain. And we need to become a new partner ourselves, one that is still generous in love, but confident in truth and knowledge.


Agreed, but in today's world if we wanted to start an info campaign, we won't have much credibility unless we have someone who has devoted most of their professional work towards studying such subjects. I'm not saying to put one's undivided trust in such "professionals", but merely use them to enhance the credibility of the campaign.

--sjkted

[GoldenYears]

Maybe sociopaths are just soul-less humanoids.

[Chicodoodoo]

I believe you do not fully understand the fact of their lacking empathy. WE can't blame the wolf for eating a lamb

The lamb and wolf analogy has its merits, but a more accurate analogy is that of host and parasite. The parasite contributes nothing and is indeed outright harmful to the host. The parasite does what it does because of what it is. The host has only two choices:

1. Do nothing and allow the parasite to control the host's destiny, or
2. Eliminate the parasite, thereby restoring the host to full health.

Obviously, the sociopaths are the parasites, and the non-sociopaths are the hosts. In this case, the parasites do not have to be eliminated to restore the host to full health. The parasites need only be identified and prevented from feeding on the host. They do not need to feed on the host to survive. So the solution does no harm to the parasites but enormous good to the host.

[sjkted]

That really is the big question: whether they don't have a soul or whether they have just lost their connection to it.

--sjkted

[Chicodoodoo]

Agreed, but in today's world if we wanted to start an info campaign, we won't have much credibility unless we have someone who has devoted most of their professional work towards studying such subjects. I'm not saying to put one's undivided trust in such "professionals", but merely use them to enhance the credibility of the campaign.

I certainly agree with you that this must be done, but the sociopaths will counter by hiring their own experts that present their preferred version of the "truth". The same thing happens in our justice system, which is why there is so little justice left in the system -- because the money rules. And who controls the money? That's right, the sociopaths.

[Ahkenaten]

I am not sure a psychiatrist or psychologist would introduce the subject of the soul into the discussion. The DSMR classifies human psychiatric/personality disorders into many categories mostly to benefit the professions who "treat" these individuals. Yes, all these individuals are by definition, "human." It appears in so-called psychopaths a screw is loose, a connection mis-wired or missing that interferes with the amygdala processing/integrating information or data from the emotional centres of the brain to the higher centers. These people have a "loose screw" however they are not insane according to the current understanding. One of the chief characteristics of these types is their LACK OF EMPATHY. More balanced humans exhibit empathy from infancy onwards though that may become dulled over time. This should tell us something very important about ourselves.

[sjkted]

Obviously, the sociopaths are the parasites, and the non-sociopaths are the hosts. In this case, the parasites do not have to be eliminated to restore the host to full health. The parasites need only be identified and prevented from feeding on the host. They do not need to feed on the host to survive. So the solution does no harm to the parasites but enormous good to the host.


To take this a bit further, parasites are in nature what they are because they were built to do it. They can't do anything else. Sociopaths are parasites of human beings because they can profit from it and get away with it easily. Unlike parasites in nature, they can change their role in society if we compel them to do so.

--sjkted

[Chicodoodoo]

That really is the big question: whether they don't have a soul or whether they have just lost their connection to it.

My preference is that we explore this question after we have regained control of the bus by removing the sociopaths from the driver's seat. Of course, the sociopaths will argue that without a driver, the bus will crash, and they will be correct. We just have to recognize that we can drive the bus far better than they can, and then do it.

[sjkted]

I certainly agree with you that this must be done, but the sociopaths will counter by hiring their own experts that present their preferred version of the "truth". The same thing happens in our justice system, which is why there is so little justice left in the system -- because the money rules. And who controls the money? That's right, the sociopaths.


Ultimately, this is always what it comes down to: whether you want to see what is really there or believe a manufactured truth campaign. I get excited about this because if this gets out in small amounts and very small percentages of human beings start to identify sociopaths in work in real life, it will be one genie that cannot be put back into the bottle.

--sjkted

[Ahkenaten]

I certainly agree with you that this must be done, but the sociopaths will counter by hiring their own experts that present their preferred version of the "truth". The same thing happens in our justice system, which is why there is so little justice left in the system -- because the money rules. And who controls the money? That's right, the sociopaths.


Ultimately, this is always what it comes down to: whether you want to see what is really there or believe a manufactured truth campaign. I get excited about this because if this gets out in small amounts and very small percentages of human beings start to identify sociopaths in work in real life, it will be one genie that cannot be put back into the bottle.

--sjkted

But there is a danger of a witch-burning campaign. Those we call psychopaths are, simply damaged goods, people with messed up wiring and screws loose. It just so happens that when their ability to empathize is short-circuited, the NORMAL inhibitions that would prevent them from predation are turned off. THIS is how they manage to dominate and control, because they LACK normal empathy they can engage in continual crime without remorse. The way to neutralize them and their activities is to recognize them (know them by their words and deeds) and ignore them. In short, refuse to play in the sandbox with them, period. Without us playing with them, there are no victims, no prey. The game is over and done. They are isolated and alone without their sources of energy.

[Chicodoodoo]

Ultimately, this is always what it comes down to: whether you want to see what is really there or believe a manufactured truth campaign. I get excited about this because if this gets out in small amounts and very small percentages of human beings start to identify sociopaths in work in real life, it will be one genie that cannot be put back into the bottle.

Well put! That is my hope, and I too find it an exciting prospect. I salute you for these words of wisdom.

[Chicodoodoo]

The way to neutralize them and their activities is to recognize them (know them by their words and deeds) and ignore them. In short, refuse to play in the sandbox with them, period. Without us playing with them, there are no victims, no prey. The game is over and done. They are isolated and alone without their sources of energy.

Somewhere, and I can't find it now, I posted an argument about why ignoring sociopaths will not work. Yes, they must be identified, and that is indeed step one of the solution. But ignoring them as step two is not sufficient. Ignoring criminals does not stop their crimes. Criminals would like nothing better than to be ignored. Sociopaths are much the same. We are essentially ignoring them now, not actively, but passively, for we are basically ignorant that they exist and dominate the highest levels of power of our civilization. And that's the way the sociopaths want it. No, ignoring them plays right into their hands. Sociopaths must be actively prohibited from assuming positions of control and power, and that prohibition must be vigilantly enforced, or sociopaths will simply rise again.

[Chicodoodoo]

This just in, by private message, talking about the ruling sociopaths (posted with Beren's permission):



I think it's in their best interest to be stopped now. Their higher self is probably suffering very much because of their current emotionless actions.

Excellent point, Beren! I have been thinking this too, that the ruling sociopaths must be realizing that something is wrong with their domination and overwhelming success, and that things are horribly out of balance. Their success is killing everything, including themselves, and they can see it even without empathy for others. That may be exactly the basis for the whole "Charles" drama -- some of the sociopaths are putting out feelers to engage the most empathetic of humanity, trying to understand why the overwhelming success of sociopaths is failing miserably.

I knew this thread should have remained in the "Rulers of the World - the Charles material" forum!

[sjkted]

My preference is that we explore this question after we have regained control of the bus by removing the sociopaths from the driver's seat. Of course, the sociopaths will argue that without a driver, the bus will crash, and they will be correct. We just have to recognize that we can drive the bus far better than they can, and then do it.


I agree, it has way too much potential to go O/T, although it is an important existential question nonetheless.

--sjkted

[sjkted]

But there is a danger of a witch-burning campaign. Those we call psychopaths are, simply damaged goods, people with messed up wiring and screws loose. It just so happens that when their ability to empathize is short-circuited, the NORMAL inhibitions that would prevent them from predation are turned off. THIS is how they manage to dominate and control, because they LACK normal empathy they can engage in continual crime without remorse. The way to neutralize them and their activities is to recognize them (know them by their words and deeds) and ignore them. In short, refuse to play in the sandbox with them, period. Without us playing with them, there are no victims, no prey. The game is over and done. They are isolated and alone without their sources of energy.


My viewpoint:

1. There should be public education campaigns. We can already do this and don't need anyone's permission for it.
2. People in top leadership positions (i.e. chief doctor, CEO, mayor, president, etc.) should be screened and being a sociopath ought to disqualify them for the job. If you found out the person who is applying for the financial controller job is guilty of embezzlement, would you hire him? Likewise, if you are known to exploit other people's weakness for your own personal gain, who would vote for such a person?

I wouldn't endorse anything beyond these two points.

--sjkted

[Cottage Rose]

I certainly agree with you that this must be done, but the sociopaths will counter by hiring their own experts that present their preferred version of the "truth". The same thing happens in our justice system, which is why there is so little justice left in the system -- because the money rules. And who controls the money? That's right, the sociopaths.


Ultimately, this is always what it comes down to: whether you want to see what is really there or believe a manufactured truth campaign. I get excited about this because if this gets out in small amounts and very small percentages of human beings start to identify sociopaths in work in real life, it will be one genie that cannot be put back into the bottle.

--sjkted
Greetings sjkted: :tea: Your statement make me think of Rupert Sheldrake's Morphic Field experiments. Basically, when a pigeon in London develops a new trick, the trick becomes available in the pigeon morphic field. Before too long an evolved pigeon in California suddenly does the same trick. Eventually it is just something pigeons do. There are some good Youtube videos. Sheldrake was good friends with Terrance McKenna. They did some entertaining conferences together before McKenna's death.

[Cottage Rose]

This is another very human characteristic -- our need to have "authority" confirm our perception of truth, as if we are incapable of determining truth ourselves. Of course, "authority" can use this human characteristic to its advantage, especially when that authority is sociopathic. You see, it takes two to tango. One party can give up its autonomy, and the other party can claim it. That is not the type of dance we want, the dance of parasite and host, but that's what we've got. We need a new partner, one that contributes with respect, instead of devouring with disdain. And we need to become a new partner ourselves, one that is still generous in love, but confident in truth and knowledge.

:clap2: :clap2: :clap2: :clap2: :clap2: :clap2: :clap2: Bravo!

[Flash]

/QUOTE]
Greetings sjkted: :tea: Your statement make me think of Rupert Sheldrake's Morphic Field experiments. Basically, when a pigeon in London develops a new trick, the trick becomes available in the pigeon morphic field. Before too long an evolved pigeon in California suddenly does the same trick. Eventually it is just something pigeons do. There are some good Youtube videos. Sheldrake was good friends with Terrance McKenna. They did some entertaining conferences together before McKenna's death.


I cannot resist but commenting on your comment: The morphic field has already begun! There is a psychiatrist in France that has been doing wonderful work, not on psychopaths or sociopaths as such but on what she calls incredible "harassers" which in fact are psychopaths, but she named them "harassers", this being more acceptable as being a kind or every day folk, doing bad things. Therefore she received widespread attention. It could have been named as well "extreme bulliers" . She made research on how damaging the harassers were, how destructive they were and mostly how costly they are to corporations.

It got so much attention that France has now some laws agains harassment (sexual, they had long time ago, but now non sexual harassment as well) and Quebec has laws as well. In Quebec, the laws are not quite efficient yet, but the awareness in workers is getting there. If proven guilty of harassment, you can lose your job, be sued, etc. Guilt is hard to prove though, because the main characteristic of harassers is that they have only one target and destroy it. Others don't see much usually. The harasser wil often chose someone bubbly, liking life and her/his job, not making too much problems, etc. Then their harassment work begins.

The name of the psychiatrist is Marie-France Hirigoyen, she wrote a few books on the topic.

http://www.mariefrance-hirigoyen.com/

What I really like about it is that consciousness about the destructiveness of sociopath has begun. Relying on morphic fields would make it still more worthwile.

[sjkted]

Interesting. Her webpage just uses body text filler (no information). Do you have any other of her resources (preferably in English)?

--sjkted

[Ahkenaten]

But there is a danger of a witch-burning campaign. Those we call psychopaths are, simply damaged goods, people with messed up wiring and screws loose. It just so happens that when their ability to empathize is short-circuited, the NORMAL inhibitions that would prevent them from predation are turned off. THIS is how they manage to dominate and control, because they LACK normal empathy they can engage in continual crime without remorse. The way to neutralize them and their activities is to recognize them (know them by their words and deeds) and ignore them. In short, refuse to play in the sandbox with them, period. Without us playing with them, there are no victims, no prey. The game is over and done. They are isolated and alone without their sources of energy.


My viewpoint:

1. There should be public education campaigns. We can already do this and don't need anyone's permission for it.
2. People in top leadership positions (i.e. chief doctor, CEO, mayor, president, etc.) should be screened and being a sociopath ought to disqualify them for the job. If you found out the person who is applying for the financial controller job is guilty of embezzlement, would you hire him? Likewise, if you are known to exploit other people's weakness for your own personal gain, who would vote for such a person?

I wouldn't endorse anything beyond these two points.

--sjkted

But the problem as I see it now Sjkted is that those in control are the ones writing the screen to be used to separate the psychopaths from the normal ones and obviously it is in their interests to keep themselves in control. That is why IMHO, this method will not work. The professions are packed with educated and credentialed lackies working for TPTB. I don't know, as a practical matter how one would go about screening out the psychopaths! That is why I brought up the witch hunt scenario, which is a frightening one! What if, by mistake, we screened someone "Positive" for psychopathy and they were one of the good guys! That is as bad, if not worse than a jury mistakenly finding someone guilty of a capital crime!!

Ah, if only fiction were true - what we need are glasses like the ones in THEY LIVE to enable us to see them all clearly!!!

[Ahkenaten]

/QUOTE]
Greetings sjkted: :tea: Your statement make me think of Rupert Sheldrake's Morphic Field experiments. Basically, when a pigeon in London develops a new trick, the trick becomes available in the pigeon morphic field. Before too long an evolved pigeon in California suddenly does the same trick. Eventually it is just something pigeons do. There are some good Youtube videos. Sheldrake was good friends with Terrance McKenna. They did some entertaining conferences together before McKenna's death.


I cannot resist but commenting on your comment: The morphic field has already begun! There is a psychiatrist in France that has been doing wonderful work, not on psychopaths or sociopaths as such but on what she calls incredible "harassers" which in fact are psychopaths, but she named them "harassers", this being more acceptable as being a kind or every day folk, doing bad things. Therefore she received widespread attention. It could have been named as well "extreme bulliers" . She made research on how damaging the harassers were, how destructive they were and mostly how costly they are to corporations.

It got so much attention that France has now some laws agains harassment (sexual, they had long time ago, but now non sexual harassment as well) and Quebec has laws as well. In Quebec, the laws are not quite efficient yet, but the awareness in workers is getting there. If proven guilty of harassment, you can lose your job, be sued, etc. Guilt is hard to prove though, because the main characteristic of harassers is that they have only one target and destroy it. Others don't see much usually. The harasser wil often chose someone bubbly, liking life and her/his job, not making too much problems, etc. Then their harassment work begins.

The name of the psychiatrist is Marie-France Hirigoyen, she wrote a few books on the topic.

http://www.mariefrance-hirigoyen.com/

What I really like about it is that consciousness about the destructiveness of sociopath has begun. Relying on morphic fields would make it still more worthwile.

Hi there this is interesting..........but I feel taking the wrong tack. Presently the legal system is already clogged to the point that cases are stacked up waiting for adjudication and practically everything has been criminalized to justify the police state and being watched every minute. I am surprised that the local constable is not required to escort us personally to the bathroom "for our own safety"!! I think there has to be another way than adding to the criminal and civil statutes .... another way that is more organic and effective.

[Ahkenaten]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BA8drfZwnXQ

[Flash]

Interesting. Her webpage just uses body text filler (no information). Do you have any other of her resources (preferably in English)?

--sjkted

The adress I have given works fine with my browser. Check yours or filters. I don't know. I also have a wikipedia adress as follows:
http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marie-France_Hirigoyen

Looking for English (I know she has not been translated yet)

Error: just found an English translation of one of her books, and the presentation here:
http://www.webheights.net/GrowingbeyondEmotionalAbuse/hirigoyen/sts.htm

[Feren]

I agree that the parasite/host analogy is a better one. I'd like to emphasize that virus are almost imposible to exterminate. They are part of echosystems just as we are, just as every cell of every living creature is part of its own micro-echosystem which is called "organism". I agree that the question for the sociopath, wether he is a human being or not, should NOT be considered in a moral sense: it is a biological question. That's why tha idea of "soul" -so christian, so primitive and already overcome by science and spiritually higher vibration- is useless. What does it mean that a man has no soul?-- For me, it means a he's a dead body. If i tried to understand what "soul" is, i would say that it is "impulse of living". This impulse inhabits every living creature.

[Flash]

/QUOTE]
Greetings sjkted: :tea: Your statement make me think of Rupert Sheldrake's Morphic Field experiments. Basically, when a pigeon in London develops a new trick, the trick becomes available in the pigeon morphic field. Before too long an evolved pigeon in California suddenly does the same trick. Eventually it is just something pigeons do. There are some good Youtube videos. Sheldrake was good friends with Terrance McKenna. They did some entertaining conferences together before McKenna's death.


I cannot resist but commenting on your comment: The morphic field has already begun! There is a psychiatrist in France that has been doing wonderful work, not on psychopaths or sociopaths as such but on what she calls incredible "harassers" which in fact are psychopaths, but she named them "harassers", this being more acceptable as being a kind or every day folk, doing bad things. Therefore she received widespread attention. It could have been named as well "extreme bulliers" . She made research on how damaging the harassers were, how destructive they were and mostly how costly they are to corporations.

It got so much attention that France has now some laws agains harassment (sexual, they had long time ago, but now non sexual harassment as well) and Quebec has laws as well. In Quebec, the laws are not quite efficient yet, but the awareness in workers is getting there. If proven guilty of harassment, you can lose your job, be sued, etc. Guilt is hard to prove though, because the main characteristic of harassers is that they have only one target and destroy it. Others don't see much usually. The harasser wil often chose someone bubbly, liking life and her/his job, not making too much problems, etc. Then their harassment work begins.

The name of the psychiatrist is Marie-France Hirigoyen, she wrote a few books on the topic.

http://www.mariefrance-hirigoyen.com/

What I really like about it is that consciousness about the destructiveness of sociopath has begun. Relying on morphic fields would make it still more worthwile.

Hi there this is interesting..........but I feel taking the wrong tack. Presently the legal system is already clogged to the point that cases are stacked up waiting for adjudication and practically everything has been criminalized to justify the police state and being watched every minute. I am surprised that the local constable is not required to escort us personally to the bathroom "for our own safety"!! I think there has to be another way than adding to the criminal and civil statutes .... another way that is more organic and effective.

Hi Akenaten,
At first I tought you must be American to talk about suing like this, but the word "constable" seems to have shown otherwise.
In fact, In Quebec, the agreement is mainly with Workers Union, they are the one to bring it up first and try to solve situations with the management of corporations. For companies not having workers unions, it goes to a special government agency which will inquire and decide is there is matter to pursue. If so, it goes into mediation. Only after all that could it end up in court. Athough our court system is somewhat overwhelmed at times, it is very far from what it seen in US. There is much much less courts cases here and if a case is seen as abuse, it is not pursued and you could be fine (nobody accuses you of damaging their car for example just to get money from you, as it happened to me in Florida).

[Ahkenaten]

thanks Flash - I meant the civil and criminal systems are so all-encompassing in the Western World that I am surprised we are permitted to be unsupervised when we get out of bed in the AM!! I think a extra-legal solution to the problem of psychopaths dominating our civilization would be better but cannot think of one that would work!! That's why I pasted the You Tube Video of THEY LIVE above, we all need some special glasses NOW!!

[Flash]

Thank you for your clarification Ahkenaten (good spelling this time around no?)

About the glasses, I really enjoyed your video, and the part 2 as well.

What I did like about Hirigoyen helping the awareness to rise, and laws being put in place is the following: now when people are starting to feel discomfort or litterally mental problems around some boss or some colleague, they now ask "could I be a subject of harassment, Is it me or the other one, are any of my colleagues submitted to the same... etc etc. Then they ask about manipulation and little by little it trickles down into society. Next ttime they start doubting some of their politician and starts seeing the mass manipulations.

They start reading, tell you about what they have read, seen, heard, and talked amongst colleagues. When that starts happening, the power of sociopath is greatly diminished. And if one brings out the topic, he is not readily dismissed, but an subtle ear is given to him.

[Ahkenaten]

Thank you for your clarification Ahkenaten (good spelling this time around no?)

About the glasses, I really enjoyed your video, and the part 2 as well.

What I did like about Hirigoyen helping the awareness to rise, and laws being put in place is the following: now when people are starting to feel discomfort or litterally mental problems around some boss or some colleague, they now ask "could I be a subject of harassment, Is it me or the other one, are any of my colleagues submitted to the same... etc etc. Then they ask about manipulation and little by little it trickles down into society. Next ttime they start doubting some of their politician and starts seeing the mass manipulations.

They start reading, tell you about what they have read, seen, heard, and talked amongst colleagues. When that starts happening, the power of sociopath is greatly diminished. And if one brings out the topic, he is not readily dismissed, but an subtle ear is given to him.

Thanks Flash -You are right - the entire subject of workplace harassment (very common unfortunately) can be a door to rising awareness of other issues as well...............we must not leave ANY DOOR CLOSED!!

[Cottage Rose]

They Live Clip....
Thanks Ahkenaten: :cool: Great clip. I love that movie. The fight scene was taken to the Steven Kingth degree.....I had to turn away. That's about what it would take to get most people to look, though.

[Ahkenaten]

They Live Clip....
Thanks Ahkenaten: :cool: Great clip. I love that movie. The fight scene was taken to the Steven Kingth degree.....I had to turn away. That's about what it would take to get most people to look though.

hahahaha! The fight scene seems very old-fashioned now doesn't it...............no fast cuts or fancy camera work from one view to another, just the guys slogging away at each other. Almost quaint................and very prolonged. hahaha

[Chicodoodoo]

But the problem as I see it now Sjkted is that those in control are the ones writing the screen to be used to separate the psychopaths from the normal ones and obviously it is in their interests to keep themselves in control. That is why IMHO, this method will not work.

We already have good tools for identifying sociopaths that would do the job. While it is true that sociopaths would try to corrupt any system designed to identify them, this becomes less and less likely as the tools are used and the sociopaths are identified. Once we are on to them, their ability to infiltrate and corrupt a system through deception diminishes dramatically. This is where being outnumbered 200 to 1 works against the sociopath.

As for the dangers of a witch-hunt, I addressed this in my post #180. We aren't burning identified sociopaths at the stake. We would simply be barring them from positions of societal control or power. If I am identified by mistake as a sociopath, and I am told I can't be governor of my state or mayor of my town, yet I am allowed to live a normal life in almost all other respects, I would probably say "thank you" and feel somewhat relieved, knowing that I don't have to serve, and that those that do are not sociopaths. No harm done.

[Come As You Are]

Just wanted to say what a great thread this is.
It's a super fascinating and complex dilemma we face with socio's and psycho's in positions of "power" everywhere. They all have dirt on the other "underling" versions of themselves, they promote within their own ranks, and they do all have different talents.
I have had dealings with at least six arch socio's in different jobs, and that's just the ones who attempted to harass or otherwise negatively influence my life.
The defining characteristic is very hard to pin down. Calling them on it doesn't seem to work. Going to higher management tends to backfire (internal promotion!)
Awareness of their typical modus operandi can alert you to potential dangers, but in the long term, I think that they will bring themselves undone. On a macro and micro level.
Until then, there is always poetic justice! And morphic resonance!!
;)


/QUOTE]
Greetings sjkted: :tea: Your statement make me think of Rupert Sheldrake's Morphic Field experiments. Basically, when a pigeon in London develops a new trick, the trick becomes available in the pigeon morphic field. Before too long an evolved pigeon in California suddenly does the same trick. Eventually it is just something pigeons do. There are some good Youtube videos. Sheldrake was good friends with Terrance McKenna. They did some entertaining conferences together before McKenna's death.


I cannot resist but commenting on your comment: The morphic field has already begun! There is a psychiatrist in France that has been doing wonderful work, not on psychopaths or sociopaths as such but on what she calls incredible "harassers" which in fact are psychopaths, but she named them "harassers", this being more acceptable as being a kind or every day folk, doing bad things. Therefore she received widespread attention. It could have been named as well "extreme bulliers" . She made research on how damaging the harassers were, how destructive they were and mostly how costly they are to corporations.

It got so much attention that France has now some laws agains harassment (sexual, they had long time ago, but now non sexual harassment as well) and Quebec has laws as well. In Quebec, the laws are not quite efficient yet, but the awareness in workers is getting there. If proven guilty of harassment, you can lose your job, be sued, etc. Guilt is hard to prove though, because the main characteristic of harassers is that they have only one target and destroy it. Others don't see much usually. The harasser wil often chose someone bubbly, liking life and her/his job, not making too much problems, etc. Then their harassment work begins.

The name of the psychiatrist is Marie-France Hirigoyen, she wrote a few books on the topic.

http://www.mariefrance-hirigoyen.com/

What I really like about it is that consciousness about the destructiveness of sociopath has begun. Relying on morphic fields would make it still more worthwile.

[Budaheart]

Interesting thread I am reading through it...thanks members for all the great insights into the question...
Perhaps the difficulties in finding an answer to this question lies in the difficulty of defining what a human is. We come across different perceptions here and depending on where we are looking from things seem one way or another.

When we look from the perspective of a Soul-Spirit or Being embodying human form, then the perspective broadens as we are not only looking at the present conditioning of a vessel (human body) being damaged on purpose or by genetic accident or other environmental accidents but we also look at Life force being present in and out of this body and having access to the pure potentiality of Being so as to speak.


Through my life I have been in difficult situations, with guns and knifes pointed at my neck, my mouth...3 guys in a car with a big knife wanting to rape me in the Sinai desert...no way out of the situation as my door was locked and had films in the back of the car that I needed to develop for a story...anyhow...in all of the situations, "I" managed to come out of it without danger or harm. In all of the occasions, I found that I could FIND the core essence of that person, even if for a split second, so that this person could make a choice and chose for the well being of all concerned. Other times. I´ve been in touch with ciber bullies for instance, who threatened to knife me and challenged me to meet them which I did. Again, a window opened and this person managed to recover something within him that made him choose otherwise....

In all cases, it seems as if depravation of love was at the core of the problem and it was through love that a window opened for change to occur.
I am not saying that all cases are the same, just sharing my personal experience with it.

As for the fear aspect, a sociopath does indeed feel fear as he is mainly a strategist and has many things to loose. We can call him a bully. Humanity is being currently bullied and all the tricks a bully use with his victims are mirrored by the way the whole world is under the threat of bullies. We need to know how they function because awareness of their strategies brings us the solutions to it.

One of the main strategies a bully and "sociopath on a mission" uses is what I call a mental projection. They are great hypnotizers and draw people into their field, playground, chess board, forcing people by this hypnosis and the strength of their magnetic energy to only look at what is presented by them: the mental projection. Many people fall into the trap of this structure and embody the roles assigned silently by the bully. We are then trapped in roles who have specific limitations and powers assigned to them.

In the end, the solution is to recognize the trap, the structure and simply step out of it, re-positioning yourself out of the chessboard.

Not sure if this adds to all that has been said or if anyone finds it beneficial
Blessings
Barbara

[Eric]

Interesting thread

all I have to add is that whenever I encountered a sociopath they seemed to home in on me regardless of whether I
did or did not do anything to provoke them.........

Thats all I have

Cheers

Eric

[Flash]

Interesting thread

all I have to add is that whenever I encountered a sociopath they seemed to home in on me regardless of whether I
did or did not do anything to provoke them.........

Thats all I have

Cheers


Eric

You must look like a worthwile target. Are you by any chance bubbly? Do you love life? Are you somewhat strong and worth the challenge? Or are you easily convinced of acting on others ideas (theirs of course)? Are you rich? Are you sexy? Anything that may attract them for a power game would do it.

To help getting rid of them and find ideas , may be you could reread the threat entirely, I will also post tomorrow something else that may help in turnig them off. I am too tired now.

Chiao

[Chicodoodoo]

In the end, the solution is to recognize the trap, the structure and simply step out of it, re-positioning yourself out of the chessboard.

There is a problem which indicates to me that this is not the end solution. Most people (based on historical observation) are not perceptive enough to recognize the traps, mainly because the traps are so well camouflaged. Plus, there is an "arms race" going on here. As more people recognize the traps, sociopaths learn to build better traps that are harder to recognize.

Better than recognizing the trap is to recognize the trapper. So identification of sociopaths is the first part of the solution. The second part of the solution is to keep sociopaths away from the tools they use to build traps. That means prohibiting sociopaths from positions of control and power. We could do both steps at the same time simply by requiring regular psychological testing on all people occupying positions of power or control within our society.

That being said, I am thankful that you have such good talents for defusing dangerous situations. I'm sure you are too.

[Budaheart]

I see your point Chicodoodoo, and your ideas seem totally valid
But if someone is able to see the trap and not to fall into it and has a positive impact in his or her life resolving the situation, he then offers to the rest of the society a possibility by example of stepping out of those traps, those chessboards. The more its seen by one, the more it will be seen by the many and gradually, by revelation of the strategies and loosing fear of it, the many can free themselves from it. Not saying its something that can be done in one day, but for sure it forms part of the possibilities and the maturing of a society.

cheers,
Barbara

[Ahkenaten]

Interesting thread I am reading through it...thanks members for all the great insights into the question...
Perhaps the difficulties in finding an answer to this question lies in the difficulty of defining what a human is. We come across different perceptions here and depending on where we are looking from things seem one way or another.

When we look from the perspective of a Soul-Spirit or Being embodying human form, then the perspective broadens as we are not only looking at the present conditioning of a vessel (human body) being damaged on purpose or by genetic accident or other environmental accidents but we also look at Life force being present in and out of this body and having access to the pure potentiality of Being so as to speak.


Through my life I have been in difficult situations, with guns and knifes pointed at my neck, my mouth...3 guys in a car with a big knife wanting to rape me in the Sinai desert...no way out of the situation as my door was locked and had films in the back of the car that I needed to develop for a story...anyhow...in all of the situations, "I" managed to come out of it without danger or harm. In all of the occasions, I found that I could FIND the core essence of that person, even if for a split second, so that this person could make a choice and chose for the well being of all concerned. Other times. I´ve been in touch with ciber bullies for instance, who threatened to knife me and challenged me to meet them which I did. Again, a window opened and this person managed to recover something within him that made him choose otherwise....

In all cases, it seems as if depravation of love was at the core of the problem and it was through love that a window opened for change to occur.
I am not saying that all cases are the same, just sharing my personal experience with it.

As for the fear aspect, a sociopath does indeed feel fear as he is mainly a strategist and has many things to loose. We can call him a bully. Humanity is being currently bullied and all the tricks a bully use with his victims are mirrored by the way the whole world is under the threat of bullies. We need to know how they function because awareness of their strategies brings us the solutions to it.

One of the main strategies a bully and "sociopath on a mission" uses is what I call a mental projection. They are great hypnotizers and draw people into their field, playground, chess board, forcing people by this hypnosis and the strength of their magnetic energy to only look at what is presented by them: the mental projection. Many people fall into the trap of this structure and embody the roles assigned silently by the bully. We are then trapped in roles who have specific limitations and powers assigned to them.

In the end, the solution is to recognize the trap, the structure and simply step out of it, re-positioning yourself out of the chessboard.

Not sure if this adds to all that has been said or if anyone finds it beneficial
Blessings
Barbara

Yes this is excellent I think and is what I was getting at in my thread about removing consent from the control paradigm. This cuts to the heart of the matter, simple, subtle and complex all at once. Excellent.

p.s. and although this is only my personal belief I believe we must develop a method that raises us all up....it seems that this particular method may achieve that important objective as well by not putting any negativity on the psychopaths and sociopaths but instead stepping outside and away from them thereby neutralizing their activities and energies but perhaps I am being too idealistic

[Budaheart]

p.s. and although this is only my personal belief I believe we must develop a method that raises us all up....it seems that this particular method may achieve that important objective as well by not putting any negativity on the psychopaths and sociopaths but instead stepping outside and away from them thereby neutralizing their activities and energies but perhaps I am being too idealistic

I think we can do it and its part of the task that we are somehow doing already but maybe in the near future it will take a much more clear shape and form so as to say that indeed we´ve managed to cut through it. As you so well said, its not about opposing as this will create again the structure, one of opposing, still a trap...Seeing it for what it is, not buying into it, not reacting to it, remaining present without going to split mode, in away, isn´t it that which the Buda did under the Bodhi tree when an army of Mara´s fellows came over him?

cheers
Barbara

[Ahkenaten]

exactly - stepping outside the old action/reaction game....now taking that a bit further and I do believe that the sociopaths and psychopaths amongst us ARE human beings albeit mis-wired somehow or missing a screw or two - I am wondering what will happen to them? I do not think it is realistic to think they will change, what would change if we did this is US and our perceptions.....BECAUSE our perceptions changed radically in this case, their fertile field of activity would also be radically altered. NO OXYGEN. Maybe they they would have less opportunity to do bad things. They might not have changed but their actions would change because our perceptions did! In that way, it would be helpful to their development because they would not be accumulating so much of a burden of bad behavior.

OR - and this just occurred to me, even more radically, if our perceptions were changed by stepping off the gameboard, perhaps even if they did do something bad, we would no longer even see it in that way.

i.e. "forgive them Father, they know not what they do."

[dan i el]

In the end, the solution is to recognize the trap, the structure and simply step out of it, re-positioning yourself out of the chessboard.

There is a problem which indicates to me that this is not the end solution. Most people (based on historical observation) are not perceptive enough to recognize the traps, mainly because the traps are so well camouflaged. Plus, there is an "arms race" going on here. As more people recognize the traps, sociopaths learn to build better traps that are harder to recognize.

Better than recognizing the trap is to recognize the trapper. So identification of sociopaths is the first part of the solution. The second part of the solution is to keep sociopaths away from the tools they use to build traps. That means prohibiting sociopaths from positions of control and power. We could do both steps at the same time simply by requiring regular psychological testing on all people occupying positions of power or control within our society.


Thanks! Yes, very precise and clearly put imo, I also think this is the necessary idea that needs implementation, vetting any figure of power and/or authority in society for psychopathy. It would transform our very world, undoubtedly.

[Ahkenaten]

Well I sure can think of a pretty long list of public officials who would have been obvious candidates for exclusion, psychopathy is so rampant amongst our "leaders" that those who are NOT are the exception to the rule! It is tempting on that basis alone!!

[crownme]

Dumdidum :) throwing my thouughts in on this subject.

nice thread btw, gives ppl the chance to learn and read up.

sociopaths...

I've herd this in many variaties on this planet. but it seems to me its a way to "cage" individuals in a system. to fear it and fear yourself. most humans ive encountered have in some form opened up to me that they are afraid that they are sociopaths becouse they do not feel morale or care about a situation for example.

In my experience with myself.. i feel sorrow but i have control over that emotion. i have felt fear but no longer becouse i know what it is. ive felt the grip of death and now i see it for what it is, and it does not affect me anymore.. does this make me a sociopath? i can turn off my duality system and sit behind the "emotion controlls". does that make me a bad "soul" beacouse i choose not to "feel" at a moment where all humans are crying ? does that make me a bad person when i see an opportunety that no one else sees, and i take it? are you a human when you can walk past by that homeless human without shedding a tear?
are you evil if you see a flaw in another humans life and you take advantage of that flaw? you know the flaw then that human should know that flaw too.

this field goes deep and in so many directions. but still the main issue not being adressed in my opinion is the "fear". when you fear and hate this word, you will not be able to learn and grow from it and se it for what it is becouse uhm you fear it. you want to stay away and all humans you think are like this too you want to keep away.

from the humans i've encountered it seems like the ones that are being put into this "cage" indeed do have more soul than others. not all but from what i experience its the majority.

Waking up.. when i've been succsessful into waking a human up. it many times seems like these souls are imidiatly feared and left alone, that is to say this is not a bad thing :) but one of the "cages" ive seen constructed, this is one of them. many that wakes up just get "emotionless" they dont cry, they dont get mad as easily as before. they dont hate. many that are alone without a "lover" just seems cold. this is not to be mistaken for a sociopath in my view.
they just know now that this life isnt the end. it isnt "bad" or "good". its life. you live and learn. you have upps and downs, but its just a ride.

but are they humans? all the ones you seem to judge everyday? is a dog a dog? if that dog could bark the natinal anthem and would be a superdog probbally, but would it still be a dog?
is the grablegak of philstry47 still a grabegak after the 4'th moon turns him yellow?

mesa is not saying there arent bad seeds around. but its individual. not something you can put into a group. and sociopaths are indeed humans for now, atleast a soul :) or mby both hehe ;) IS-BE...

thinks thats it for now mesa thinks :)

namaste

[Budaheart]

Daniel, Akhenaten, Crownme thanks for your insights food for thought!

I guess we are just brainstorming as a result of chicodoodoo's invitation...

We started asking if sociopaths are humans, I guess we´ve all answered yes to that question...perhaps a question that would bring more debate would be: is being a sociopath a behavior that is natural to a natural human being? that is, a being who is free and hasn´t been manipulated by any external force or historic conditioning?...if such a being does exist?...then perhaps we could have a debate about the general goodness of a human being or is he intrinsically prone to disfunctionalities due to his very nature?

As for the solutions to sociopathy, which is where the conversation seems to be leading, there are at least two avenues of work: 1. how the "victims" of a sociopath can overcome this agressive behavior, and 2. what happens with the aggressor sociopath once there is no longer a victim for him ...

My personal way of dealing with is is to focus on myself, take personal responsability for what I can take responsability and if I am to be placed in the position of a victim, what can I do in my hands to step out of that role. taking things to the extreme I get the image of the christians being thrown at the lions on a roman circus...it was going to happen but is there anything one could do to step out of that role in such a critical life threatening situation? how do you live your last days withou being a victim?, this is an internal re-positioning, no matter what occurs on the outside. You need to know where you are, for where you place yourself determines the rest of the situation.

Then there is the sociopath...if a society is no longer supporting sociopaths because their members have woken up to their games and aren´t supporting anymore the game, then, there is no game, no one to play anymore. My personal inclination is to think that it would be "game over" scenario...it has been in my personal experience, but hey, its just a personal experience...

hugs
Barbara

[crownme]

hi and thnks :)

"We started asking if sociopaths are humans, I guess we´ve all answered yes to that question...perhaps a question that would bring more debate would be: is being a sociopath a behavior that is natural to a natural human being? that is, a being who is free and hasn´t been manipulated by any external force or historic conditioning?...if such a being does exist?...then perhaps we could have a debate about the general goodness of a human being or is he intrinsically prone to disfunctionalities due to his very nature?"

exelent written :) to me atlest :) isnt that an evolution of being ? mesa functions on this planet without a past nor future, and i dont nor have ever been inflicted with what goes on this planet. never wanted to even celebrate my birthday. and never x-mas. the social culture is also a thing ive taken as a curiosity not as a thing to aply in my life. i use this for what this is.

[sjkted]

I've herd this in many variaties on this planet. but it seems to me its a way to "cage" individuals in a system. to fear it and fear yourself. most humans ive encountered have in some form opened up to me that they are afraid that they are sociopaths becouse they do not feel morale or care about a situation for example.


If they feel fear, then they are not sociopaths.

--sjkted

[Chicodoodoo]

And if you havent watched this video with James Horak. This is a new opportunity.

Everyone should hear this interview! This is a fascinating analysis of the Charles interview. It is also the first time I have ever heard anyone come to the same conclusion as me (outside of this thread) regarding the ruling sociopaths (at about 69 minutes into the interview). James Horak says we must expose them and take away their tools. I said exactly the same thing yesterday in post #229. More and more people are waking up to the root problem and the solution. This understanding needs to go viral so that empathetic humans can regain control of their destiny!



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gNnZSx6JWss

[Ahkenaten]

I was thinking about the whole subject of psychopathology last night and it hit me that probably the reason our current leadership seems to be dominated by these types (politics, business, etc. etc.) is that it is a manifestation of the collective values at this time..............the race is projecting out and manifesting what we call "psychopathology"...... it is a wave-form, or energetic manifestation that originates in the COLLECTIVE WE. Therefor in that sense it is not a phenomenon that is separate from us, rather it is an extreme exaggerated aspect of ourselves and our own natures individually and collectively. If we look at it in this way, perhaps that would be helpful............just an idea.

[Budaheart]

Solution 229 (as post 229) is good, but to do what you suggest, you need to be already in power to remove from power those who are already there. Seeing that you are not going to use force to impose yourself in power (or will you?) you need to waken up people and use numbers to tumble the current situation.

My approach is to transform yourself and the rest who aren´t willing to be dominated by sociopaths and then the ruling under those conditions (sociopaths dominating rest of population) wont be possible, a question of numbers...more peaceful people just turning away from chess boards and starting to live their lives under their principles and less ruling type sociopaths. In the end, it scrambles.

The idea of not recognizing the traps is the challenge for those willing to awaken and the reason for the work to be done, actually.

Sociopath/non-sociopath forms a duality, if you can´t change one, you can change the other and the game ends or transforms. Which one is easier to transform?

hugs
Barbara

[Chicodoodoo]

probably the reason our current leadership seems to be dominated by these types (politics, business, etc. etc.) is that it is a manifestation of the collective values at this time.

I could buy that if it was limited to our current leadership, but I think this power/control domination by sociopaths has been a part of our global history for as far back as we can go. It is an artifact of the nature of the beast (humans) that this duality exists. The fact is that a very small percentage of humans are born with a condition that is very different from the vast majority. How that plays out in our society and our evolution is a fascinating study. It doesn't surprise me that this would attract intelligences from all over the universe. We could be the most interesting slide under the microscope.

[Ahkenaten]

excellent point about our known history...........and it does seem to be a consistent and persistent set ...... I would imagine that might make for a fascinating study if only WE could be so objective. Seems like you are saying the surgical knife, so to speak, is the only "solution"...... I see your point but it is troubling nonetheless

[Chicodoodoo]

Solution 229 (as post 229) is good, but to do what you suggest, you need to be already in power to remove from power those who are already there.

Good point. That is why it is such a dilemma.


Seeing that you are not going to use force to impose yourself in power (or will you?) you need to waken up people and use numbers to tumble the current situation.

With respect to force, it's like disciplining a child. For example, you remove the matches from the child, and then explain why this action is necessary. Some "force" is involved, but it is done with love and understanding. In this case, because the sociopaths have a great deal of force at their disposal (the unawakened that do their bidding), the child is stronger than the adult. So we do indeed have to use the numbers to turn the tables.

Your method also uses the numbers to turn the tables, and in both methods, knowledge of the truth is the key, but the sociopaths actively oppose our obtaining the knowledge. It may be that either method will work, if only we can implement one or the other (or both). It may also be that neither method is correct.


Sociopath/non-sociopath forms a duality, if you can´t change one, you can change the other and the game ends or transforms. Which one is easier to transform?

As non-sociopaths, we do not have the knowledge to change sociopaths into caring human beings, at least not yet. Even if we had it, could it be done? Should it be done? What worries me is that sociopaths may gain that knowledge first and try to use it. The danger is in thinking themselves gods, and attempting to change humanity as a god would, to create man in their image, so to speak. It could be their "holy grail", their solution to the same imbalance we see. Non-sociopaths may be tempted to do the same thing!

I'm beginning to think that we may actually be enriched by having this duality, if only we can channel it properly. So far, throughout our history, the sociopaths have ruled, and they have not channeled it properly at all. It may be that both sociopaths and non-sociopaths have their proper places that can benefit all of humanity, and we have not yet found that balance. I wonder if some of the sociopaths have also reached this same conclusion, which might explain why Charles has been sent to Avalon.

[crownme]

hi :)

well thats why i said that some human fear that they are, not that they are.
and by that logic i should be a sociopath becouse i does not feel fear? o.O

and how can you state that a sociopath does not feel fear? does you know the inner working of a "sociopath"? have you felt what one feels? i just wonder couse this is a hard statement to take. if you have a indepth explanation that would be helpful.

[Chicodoodoo]

how can you state that a sociopath does not feel fear?

Yes, this needed to be re-examined.

I don't think it is correct to say sociopaths do not feel fear, or that they have no conscience, or that they have no feelings. It is helpful to remember that variations among humans are on a continuum. Although we may describe someone as "having no fear", what we really mean is that person has much less fear than "normal". We are always comparing against some baseline, which in humans is often the median point on some bell-shaped curve. When we say sociopaths have no empathy, we are really saying that their capacity for empathy is much lower than is typical for the average human.

[Budaheart]

Hello Chico, Akhenaten, Cottage Rose, Crownme, members...

Chicodoodoo you raise new points...indeed, we can learn from a sociopath things they do that can be transformed into beneficial tools and non-sociopaths may be lacking those skills...for instance...the degree of one pointedness, of extreme focus and raw motivation of a sociopath is a great skill when channeled appropriately for the highest good of all. When they embark on an action, they tend to be fully engaged in that action, with no inner division, no doubt no questioning, therefore they tend to be very precise and very much achieve their results because of this complete non division. Their psyche might be split but when they act, their action is no split. Many lovely empathetic persons lack this precision in the accuracy of their actions as they are internally divided in doubt as to the whether the outcome of their actions is beneficial or not. A thieve doesn´t have these internal issues and he acts fully. That´s something we can learn from sociopaths (not that we cannot learn it from other sources).

Your description of a sociopath having access to knowledge & power seems to be something we can relate to when contemplating governments and other groups, drug cartels, mafias etc...
trying to create a society that mirrors their own sociopathy would be a natural result of their level of consciousness..indeed...

Again, I think we agree on the need to gain awareness of their modus operandi and where do we personally fall into their game and take it from there on and build ways to gradually encourage a shift in the focus of the general direction society is taking...again we need to increase the level of awareness individually and collectivelly before we can engage in other processes... perhaps you´d like to look at what can be done to increase that awareness and/or what can be done to bring about this change?

Hugs
Barbara

[Budaheart]

Hi members,

I´d like to share with you this material which I find adds a new dimension to the understanding of sociopathy in general. This time it comes from the other side, the apparent "Normal" citizens who under certain conditions can suddenly behave like authentic sociopaths displaying ruthless behaviors lacking empathy and care. This documentary is in french with Spanish subtitles, it is a documentary done by a french team of researchers trying to see 30 something years later if the Milgram Experiment (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment) is still in place and if people under certain circumstances would override their natural care and concern for another human being and display other behaviors when forced to inflict pain over another human being.

Documentary Le Jeu de la Mort (2010)
http://www.megavideo.com/?v=X1LVC41J

The documentary is amazing as it shows human behavior when exposed to a so-called authority such as a tv spokesperson and how when in an environment foreign to us, we may override our personal values and accept the pressure and the influences of another being assuming power over us.
Throughout the experiment we get to see the opinion of the different participants and I´d like to highline one participant´s reaction, that of an African lady who felt really bad when she ended the experiment. She was actually one of the few to refuse taking the game to a step further, thus harming another participant with electro-shocks, and when she finally stepped out of the contest and the experiment, she confessed that during the tv contest, due to the pressure excerced by the so called powers to be (the tv, the media) she felt a split between her DOING AND HER BEING.

I find this is at the core of the problem. Manipulation forces us into creating this split in our hearts and minds. All forms of manipulation and the conscious creation of a sociopath is also based in this core division between heart and mind and ultimately creating multiple splits in the mind. People are trained to do horrendous actions and by doing so, a part of their being dissociates between the core of their being and the split in the psyche that is actually doing those actions...We create compartimentalized beings who are unable to connect the dots...to put two and two together, to bring themselves from insanity back to sanity because there is a split and no bridge reuniting the psyche.
This documentary shows this in a minor detail, but its really worth watching...much food for thought...

Hugs
Barbara

[Flash]

how can you state that a sociopath does not feel fear?

Yes, this needed to be re-examined.

I don't think it is correct to say sociopaths do not feel fear, or that they have no conscience, or that they have no feelings. It is helpful to remember that variations among humans are on a continuum. Although we may describe someone as "having no fear", what we really mean is that person has much less fear than "normal". We are always comparing against some baseline, which in humans is often the median point on some bell-shaped curve. When we say sociopaths have no empathy, we are really saying that their capacity for empathy is much lower than is typical for the average human.

They may fear falling, getting physically hurt, or losing control. They probably do not fear about emotional consequences, cause they cannot reach that emotional state. IMHO