Is Charles Material correct or incorrect? Could that affect credibility Avalon forum?

[qbeac]

Please, before voting in the poll, it is recommended to read this post (#1) which contains instructions and clarifications about the poll and its questions. Thanks!

Hi everyone,

This poll is to get a general view of the opinion of Avalon users about the Charles Material (CM) and how that opinion may evolve in time, because as more data comes to light, that opinion may or may not change in any direction.

This poll is placed in the “General Discussion” section of the Avalon forum because it transcends the Charles Material and could affect the Avalon forum in general.

The poll only has 10 options (5 questions with two parts each) because that’s the maximum number allowed by the forum system. It would have been good to include more questions, but I don’t know if it is technically possible to increase that number.

If it is not, in order to obtain more data (more questions about different subjects) it would be necessary to open other polls. Anybody is welcome to do so to gather the data of their own choosing and to ask the questions of their own choosing.

The poll has 5 questions divided in two parts (a and b) because the system does not allow to ask an individual question with a yes/no answer. So, you can choose “a” or “b” for each one of the 5 questions, since it is a multiple choice poll. That is, each person can answer the 5 questions (a or b) if they wish to do so, or only some of them. It’s up to you.

The questions are short (few words) because the system only allows a maximum number of characters per sentence (see below for clarifications of some questions).

There is no expiration date for the poll. It will run as long as this thread is opened or the subjects of the poll clarified.

You are welcome to post your comments in this thread.

The more people that vote in the poll, the more statistically significant its results will be.

Therefore, please, spread the word so that everybody in the Avalon forum knows about it and has the chance to vote.

Thanks.


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Additional clarifications about the questions of the poll

Question 1. For more details, see post:



Post #119, pag. 6. Will Charles honour his word of telling us the full details of his plan (option 3 of the poll)? If not, why did he include option 3 in the poll in the first place?
http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?13214-Is-the-Charles-33%C2%92s-POV-ok-or-a-Trojan-Horse-Who-do-you-agree-with-Bill-or-Kerry&p=142244&viewfull=1#post142244


Question 2. For more details, see post:



Post #84, pag. 5. Analogy of “donkey versus zebra”: Is the Charles Material true or false, correct or incorrect?
http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?13214-Is-the-Charles-33%C2%92s-POV-ok-or-a-Trojan-Horse-Who-do-you-agree-with-Bill-or-Kerry&p=137296&viewfull=1#post137296
In summary, what the “donkey versus zebra analogy” says is that, sometimes, if we only have a limited amount of key info about a specific subject, that subject could be true or false, but unless they provide additional and sufficient key info about it, it will be impossible to discern whether it is true or false. In these cases all we can say is “we don’t know if it is true or false”.


Knowledge is power, and the elite know it too well.

That’s why the elite have lied to us in just about every important thing we should already know. And that’s why they have hidden from us vast amounts of key info.

When somebody withholds information, there could be several different reasons for doing so, although quite frequently the reason is because releasing info means loosing power, and that’s what the elite didn’t want to do during the last 13 Millennia.

That’s why it is important trying to discern the real intentions and motivations of the party that withholds the info: is it due to “Service To Self” or “Service To Others” motivations (STS vs. STO)?

When there is an important lack of key info, an assessment of the risk of accepting that info at face value should be done: Is it worth it accepting this info knowing there is an important lack of key info about it? Could it cause any damage to me or to others if it turns out to be false? Which are the “pros and cons” (“opportunities” and “risks”) of trusting this info without having solid guarantees of its validity?


Minimum level of reliability of the info.

When can a specific info be considered reliable enough, or not reliable enough?

Sometimes it’s hard to know with 100% certainty if a specific info-witness-whistleblower is correct or incorrect, true or false.

Sometimes, reasonable doubts about its validity may arise in any stage of the process: from the time the info is first detected until further clarifications about it are provided by the witness-whistleblower.

For example, serious doubts about the reliability of Dan Burisch were raised when in the Amsterdam Conference (Awake & Aware, 2009) he said vaccinations where safe to take after many people in the audience had already learnt that Jane Burgermeister had denounced the fraud of the H1N1 flu vaccine. That was a serious blow to Dan Burisch’s credibility.

So, in case serious doubts about the validity of a certain info-witness come up, it would be good to reach a common agreement on the acceptable “level of reliability” of such info, and to set a “minimum level of reliability” under which a specific info cannot be considered reliable enough by the standards of quality of Project Avalon and Project Camelot.

The idea is that only info that comply the “minimum level of reliability” according to the Avalon and Camelot standards of quality can be considered worth it of becoming a part of its generally accepted body of info.

In some cases it may be impossible to discern if a specific info is correct or incorrect, o true or false, because there is insufficient data available about it.

In such cases, that info may have to be put “permanently on hold” or be “temporarily discarded” until new data comes to light that can unbalance its current state of uncertainty.


Question 3. For more details, see post:



Post #105, pag. 6. Does it matter if the Charles Material is true or false, correct or incorrect? What are the potential risks? Could the credibility of Bill-Avalon be deteriorated if serious incorrect data is not detected?
http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?13214-Is-the-Charles-33%C2%92s-POV-ok-or-a-Trojan-Horse-Who-do-you-agree-with-Bill-or-Kerry&p=139301&viewfull=1#post139301
Question 3 (3a and 3b) had to be shortened because the original sentence was two long, but it should have read like this:



3a- If the CM turns out to be incorrect and no action about it is taken by Bill, the credibility of Bill, Project Avalon and/or Project Camelot could be deteriorated.

3b- Even if the CM turns out to be incorrect and no action about it is taken by Bill, the credibility of Bill, Project Avalon and/or Project Camelot couldn’t be deteriorated.
The reason why the credibility of Bill-Avalon-Camelot could be negatively affected (or even deteriorated) is because some people may think:



“If the Charles Material turns out to be incorrect (or not reliable enough), how many other Avalon or Camelot material could also be incorrect?”
In other words, a single fly could spoil the whole honey bottle. That’s the risk.


Question 4. For more details, see posts:



Post #782, pag. 40. Important question for Bill about the Q&A sessions. Is Charles cherry picking the questions? Why? Potential risk of the manipulation of info
http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?13572-RULERS-Questions-for-Charles-volume-2&p=129060&viewfull=1#post129060

Post #94, pag. 5. Gedankenexperiment (thought experiment). Debunkers, Desinformation Campaigns, infiltration tactics and methods to control/manipulate information (Internet forums included)
http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?13214-Is-the-Charles-33%C2%92s-POV-ok-or-a-Trojan-Horse-Who-do-you-agree-with-Bill-or-Kerry&p=138320&viewfull=1#post138320

Post #98, pag. 5. Methods and tactics to infiltrate and manipulate society, including Internet forums. The “Cass Sunstein” case.
http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?13214-Is-the-Charles-33%C2%92s-POV-ok-or-a-Trojan-Horse-Who-do-you-agree-with-Bill-or-Kerry&p=138763&viewfull=1#post138763

Post #23454, pag. 59. Nine steps to infiltrate and manipulate an Internet forum
http://camelotforum.com/index.php?option=com_kunena&func=view&catid=37&id=20465&limit=10&limitstart=580&Itemid=147#23454


Question 5. For more details, see posts:



Post #1, pag. 1 (points 8 and 9). Is the Charles Material correct or incorrect? Some yellow and red flags. Is Bill willing to debate in public with other experts (knowledgeable and honourable people) the validity of the CM?
http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?13214-Is-the-Charles-33%C2%92s-POV-ok-or-a-Trojan-Horse-Who-do-you-agree-with-Bill-or-Kerry

Post #76, pag. 4. Daniel Goleman and the advantages of the team effort approach to discern correct from incorrect info
http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?10870-Bill-Ryans-50-minute-video-commentary-on-the-Charles-interview-9-1-11&p=93738&viewfull=1#post93738


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Why do many of us appreciate the info in Project Avalon and Project Camelot?

Many people are followers and supporters of Project Avalon and Project Camelot (me included) because of the following reasons:



a) They trust the integrity and honesty of Bill Ryan and Kerry Cassidy, and even though neither Bill nor Kerry are perfect (nobody is) and each has their own personal style, virtues and defects (who doesn’t?), they believe both Bill and Kerry are real truth seekers.

b) They trust the sincere willingness of Bill and Kerry to try to discern correct from incorrect info (witnesses and whistleblowers).

c) They think the overall quality of the info presented so far both by Bill and Kerry is high, and it provides a very deep, profound, and enhanced view of the Big Picture as compared to the tremendous limitations, censorship, and distortions of MSM (Mainstream Media).

d) Most people would expect that Bill and Kerry do their best to thoroughly vet the info, witnesses, and whistleblowers, and to submit them to the best possible due diligence process, seeking assistance from other experts when necessary.

e) Most people understand that nobody is perfect, and that some of the information of Project Avalon or Project Camelot could be incorrect, especially considering that the elite is probably be very much interested in planting false information and false witnesses and whistleblowers.

f) Point “e” is a real risk most people are aware of, and that’s why discernment, critical thinking, and positive criticism should be encouraged and should be welcome both by Bill and Kerry.

g) However, most people would also expect that in case some info turns out to be incorrect (or if it is or falls under the minimum level of reliability according to the Avalon and Camelot standards), a public correction would be made asap.

“An error doesn't become a mistake until you refuse to correct it.”
(John F. Kennedy)


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Some good quotes:

"A time comes when silence is betrayal."
(Martin Luther King)

“All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.”
(Edmund Burke)

“The world is a dangerous place, not because of those who do evil, but because of those who look on and do nothing.”
(Albert Einstein)

"He who passively accepts evil is as much involved in it as he who helps to perpetrate it. He who accepts evil without protesting against it is really cooperating with it."
(Martin Luther King)

“The smart way to keep people passive and obedient is to strictly limit the spectrum of acceptable opinion, but allow very lively debate within that spectrum - even encourage the more critical and dissident views. That gives people the sense that there's free thinking going on, while all the time the presuppositions of the system are being reinforced by the limits put on the range of the debate."
(Noam Chomsky)

“The truth without love is a lie”
(Fransciscan priest. St. Francis of Assisi Order)

“The truth shall set you free”
(Jesus Christ)
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Feb-21-2011

Important update and potential WARNING

In the Project Camelot forum, in pages 70 to 73, people are talking about “the possibility” of performing the following stuff in Internet forums. I do not know if these possibilities could be correct or incorrect in this case, but let’s try to discern it. As an example of the conversation going on at Camelot, I quote several sentences from different posts:

Project Camelot forum. Several quotes from pages 70 to 73
http://camelotforum.com/index.php?option=com_kunena&func=view&catid=37&id=20465&limit=10&limitstart=690&Itemid=147



… the creation of a 'coven' and the opening of a channel that can be utilized by the negative side for their purposes with or without those 'linked up' being aware of it.

… there might be something "satanic" going on over there [at the Avalon forum]…

… to inject some satanic-like references…

… "creating a coven" with government "Persona Management Software" ( creating fake online personalities)…

… "Charles" did mention Lucifer in connection to the 33, as an immensely powerful "parasitical" being…

… A coven is defined on wikipedia as "A coven or covan is a name used to describe a gathering of witches or in some cases vampires. Due to the word's association with witches, a gathering of Wiccans, followers of the witchcraft-based neopagan religion of Wicca, is also described as a coven." And therefore not necessarily satanic. However, as in all things... such as this, I wouldn't rule that out....

… You will note that Charles is choosing 18 people (…) You will note the number 18 comes from the name Adolf Hitler (A and H being the first and the eighth letters of the Latin alphabet...

… I would think the best antidote to these manipulating and dichotomising tactics would be acts and statements of Unity from Bill Ryan and Kerry Cassidy as it would only confound the miserable efforts of these disruptive forces…


Some important questions for everybody:



1) Is there any expert in these matters around here (at Avalon) that understands well enough this type of stuff and could explain it better?

(Note: I mean an expert from the light side, not the dark side)

2) Is there any possibility whatsoever that those types of things could be performed or attempted in an Internet forum (including Avalon)?

3) What are the real and true intentions of the “33” when they decided to give the green light to do the Charles Interview? Are those intentions from the light side or from the dark side? Does anybody (Bill included) know it with total certainty? What are the risks of not being totally sure about it?
In any case, all of this should be properly and fully clarified.

Thanks.


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Feb-22-2011

Update about software technology to infiltrate Internet forums

This update is about certain type of software technology designed by the US government (or the elite) to create false “personas” (or fake personalities, cyber presences) to infiltrate Internet forums and manipulate the info.

On top of that we also need to consider some of the things Charles and others (Ex: Benjamin Fulford) have explained about the incredible capacity of current state of the art Artificial Intelligence Machines (AI, Super Computers) at the disposal of the elite, AI which has almost science fiction characteristics and could even simulate to a certain extent the behaviour of a human being.

The questions are:



1) Is that type of software technology already working?

2) Could they have used that type of technology to infiltrate this forum or other ones?
This is a link with info about this type of technology:

More HBGary Federal Fallout: The Government Wants To Buy Software To Fake Online Grassroots Social Media Campaigns
http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20110218/02143213163/more-hbgary-federal-fallout-government-wants-to-buy-software-to-fake-online-grassroots-social-media-campaigns.shtml#comments



The latest in the long line of revelations from the HBGary Federal email leak, is that HBGary Federal wanted to create software that could make it easy for staffers to create and maintain a massive number of fake online social network personas, allowing them to control virtual armies of totally fake people, whose only mission is to spy on others and spew paid-for propaganda.

But, what's even more amazing is that not only did the emails reveal HBGary Federal employees talking about building a platform for letting people more easily manage an army of fake personas, but that the US government put out a request for exactly that kind of software last June, with its request for "Persona Management Software."



“Software will allow 10 personas per user, replete with background, history, supporting details, and cyber presences that are technically, culturally and geographically consistent. Individual applications will enable an operator to exercise a number of different online persons from the same workstation and without fear of being discovered by sophisticated adversaries.”

“Personas must be able to appear to originate in nearly any part of the world and can interact through conventional online services and social media platforms. The service includes a user friendly application environment to maximize the user's situational awareness by displaying real-time local information.”
The following are some comments about this topic posted in the Project Camelot forum with speculations about how many new members joined the Avalon forum at the beginning of January-2011 and right after the Charles Interview was announced by Bill Ryan, and whether or not some of those new members could be or not “software personas”:

Project Camelot forum
CHARLES AND THE ADVENT OF "V" ON THE PEOPLE
http://camelotforum.com/index.php?option=com_kunena&func=view&catid=37&id=20465&Itemid=147



… So somewhere in the neighbourhood of 800 -1000 new members [joined the Avalon forum right after January-1-11 due to the Charles Interview]?

… Just going by how many times Charles is "thanked" for his posts I'd say roughly around 60-70 followers. That sound about right? I wonder how many of those are actual live people... it could actually only be 6 or 7. I think that was pretty much alluded to on the Heather ect. thread.

….It's my understanding there is a group of IT techs who have sold their souls to TPTB and they are in the business of busting up alternative/truth/conspiracy websites and forums. It's what they do to keep the truth from getting out. Too bad...they're losing!


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March-9-2011

Update about two hypothesis

The two hypothesis can be read at link:

Post #28068, pag. 114. Two hypothesis about the risks of the infiltration of forums and manipulation of info and people
http://camelotforum.com/index.php?option=com_kunena&func=view&catid=37&id=20465&limit=10&limitstart=1130&Itemid=147#28068

Edit: The previous link changed, the current one is this one:

Post #28068, pag. 117. Two hypothesis about the risks of the infiltration of forums and manipulation of info and people
http://camelotforum.com/index.php?option=com_kunena&func=view&catid=37&id=20465&limit=10&limitstart=1160&Itemid=164#28068

[Shankari]

This is getting nuts
in my mind he can do whatever he wants

[anikohu]

Dear Qbeac! This is awsome!!:jaw:- what a great work you have down! Thank You!!:nod:

[Lee-B]

Qbeac, thanks for your tireless efforts in attempting to seek the truth. Or at least confirmation of it.

[Sentience]

Again a truly detailed and outstanding post, Why you are constantly ignored by Charles and Bill as well for that matter is a complete red flag to my eyes.

I do hope that this thread is a catalyst to gain a response for the pertinent questions you have been asking on the Poll thread in the "Charles" forum.

Somehow I don't think i will be holding my breath though :(

[ScubaMonkey]

Way I see it, it's up to Charles what he does and its no skin off my nose either way. So I voted for 1b.
Has to answer 'a' for the other questions though.

[jorr lundstrom]

Oh my God. A new way trying to construct a parachute in a matter where no parachutes works or are in any way

needed.:playball::target::target::target::noidea::sleep:

[trenairio]

[edit][edit][edit]

[Anchor]

Qualifier: I voted without reading the first post. I still have not read the first post and do not plan to :)

The poll was well set out and the options were easy enough to understand.

[Jean-Luc]

Thank you for your critical look.

Extraordinary claims need extraordinary proofs. Despite many signs of something genuine going on with this Charles material, there are still to date a number of strangest items that definitely require to be substantiated.

To me the most extraordinary ones are:


The claim about the Reptiles who would have left the place eons ago, whereas a small group of pure (pure from what?) bloodlines would have kept interbreeding and withholding knowledge (and power) for all that time. How “impure” is the rest of humanity?
The extremely bizarre longevity of Charles’ master (even though some currently documented things are also very bizarre http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ram_Bahadur_Bomjon). So I would say, lets’ leave that aside, be both highly skeptical and open minded. Wait and see.
The extremely bizarre split during this last month of a coalition that would have been going on for 17.000 years. Mostly improbable, plus what signs do we have of this happening? What external signs of something really weird going on on planet Earth as a consequence of this very unique event?
The very existence of this group of 33 as distinct from the known rich and wealthy. Difficult to hide to such an extent, isn’t it?

Added to that the strange 6 years span of time left to try and find some sort of creative solution. Why 6 years? Why not 2? Why not 20?

Well, clearly, we are left in the mist here with all this.

It’s a pity the second predicted interview seems to be postponed for another couple of weeks, as Bill will be in the US.

Could it be that neither Bill nor Charles really knows how to move from here and just sort of let things roll? What is the plan? Is there a plan?

This being said, I personally tend not to consider all this as some diabolic plan of the “elite” to divide and conquer. But it certainly leaves me with a taste of too little

Jean-Luc

PS. I’ve read your personal story with the priest. Interesting, but a quarter of an hour hoax can absolutely not compare with an 8 months relationship under the scrutiny of both Bill and a bunch of smart people here around.
http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?13214-Is-the-Charles-33%C2%92s-POV-ok-or-a-Trojan-Horse-Who-do-you-agree-with-Bill-or-Kerry&p=142950&viewfull=1#post142950

[Jean-Luc]

(Deleted message)

[New Dawn]

Not to offend anyone, but lets just move on to other topics until the man himself or Bill have something to say. The Charles material has totally changed the forums attitude, from my perspective as I look in - that isn't Charlie's fault, it's ours. Besides, one of the most important questions asked to Charles was never answered, or was asnwered with another question, and I've lost interest in having a carrot dangled in my face which results in little. If I want to see the Riddler, I'll watch Batman.

Again, no offense to anyone - but a lot of people have had a lot of weird experiences, none of them led to anything. Now was that Charles related? Again, I don't care anymore, but all I do know is we need to remember why we came here, and that reason is not only Charles. I could go on, but what's the point, you get what I'm saying.

Peace to everyone!

[Icecold]

Well, Charles has listened to the members for a considerable time and has decided to leave the forum. The debate to a large extent should be over. Those who wanted him to go are getting their voices heard. Those who didn't want him to go are able to visit another forum to further discuss the material.

I would think this suits both camps. Demands can't be made on members unless they have operated outside forum rules.

I agree with New Dawn. Time to resume normal programming. Avalon is on the air. Taking callers.

Yes, Qbeac has done an outstanding analytical job which covers a wide range of concerns.

The poll remains highly significant because of the 4a and 4b questions.

[Bollinger]

Qbeac,

Thank you for your detailed clarifications and the poll concerning the Charles material. Right from the very beginning the material left many unanswered questions, anomalies, logical inconsistencies and many other holes that remain unfilled

The problem is that Charles is actually not a very good con artist. There are those who are far better at it than he but then he only needed to persuade one person and knew that the rest would follow. So, after having convinced Bill, he proceeded to steal his reputation and ride on the back of it for as long as it was possible to stay on.

It was only a matter of time before faith in such things begins to wane and rational thought takes over. Some are so innocent and ready to believe that it takes them a little longer to realise how absurd and utterly futile it all is. Disillusionment is a terrible thing when it hits and with any luck it should make one a better person for it.

As for the reputation of Avalon, it is inevitable that some damage will be sustained not only within but without its immediate sphere of followers and watchers. I dare say, Bill is probably facing one of the greatest quandaries of his life in trying to work out which way to go with this and no doubt he will consider his own position as time goes on and nothing useful results from this material.

We have all been conned or tricked in our lives either to believe in some useless fad or idea. There are thousands of people in this world (some in very high places and holding important positions) who have no regard for other people and use every dirty little trick to manipulate, deceive and gain our confidence in the hope that we believe in what they say. That is why it is so important to ask for concrete evidence and proof before embarking on anything of this kind.

Does all of the above mean that the world is wonderful and that there is nothing wrong with it? No, of course it doesn’t because there is plenty of evidence to suggest otherwise. There are those who conduct painstaking research in order to uncover a tiny little truth that may lead to other truths and many in the alternative community (including Bill) have done a great job in bringing to us these revelations.

However, that does not mean that we should believe every Tom, Dick or Harry that comes up with a story that sounds like it could be true. Sometimes, one does have to make a leap of faith just to start the process of discovering truth and then seek to prove the assertion or theory by way of evidence. Since this has been and still is missing from the Charles material, we must grow ever more suspicious of it and if nothing is forthcoming in a short time, which it hasn’t, discard it entirey.

PS: I voted for 5a.

[ace]

Would rather go sit in the sun, on my hill and play with my dog.

Haven't you noticed

things have moved on.

Ace

[qbeac]

Hi everyone, today, Feb-21-2011, I have added an important update at the end of post #1

[Bollinger]

Would rather go sit in the sun, on my hill and play with my dog.

Haven't you noticed

things have moved on.

Ace

Well of course things have moved on. What other alternative is there BUT to move on? The kind of questions people should be asking themselves are:

Have I learned anything useful from it?
Has it made me a better soul?
Have I managed to drink a little from the cup of wisdom?
Did it bring clarity to my view and thinking?
Has it made me a better or worse person?
Does it have any consequence on how I would treat information of the same kind in the future?
How will I react to the next character that turns up with "information" and no proof?

Simply to say, time to move on, is tantamount to saying: oh well, never mind, it was good while it lasted, can we have some more please. Even if it is proven beyond all doubt that the Charles material was fake and completely without substance, you should still have learned something from it by enquiring of yourself the above questions, otherwise, it truly was a complete waste of time.

[aikya]

Thanks for the poll, qbeac, and for all the effort you make to get your questions answered.

Re Camelot, I've noticed a concerted effort on the part of one or two to try to stir up negativity towards Camelot. Bill has said repeatedly that he and Kerry are still good friends, that they are working on projects together, and all is good. So I can't help wondering whether the 'hate stirring' against Camelot is one more attempt to discredit them both?

[ponda]

Hi everyone, today, Feb-21-2011, I have added an important update at the end of post #1


Interesting update qbeac.

What concerned me the most with the charles saga was the secrecy involved which i thought was suspicious and what was behind the "thirty three".If it is indeed true that charles mentioned lucifer in connection with the thirty three then that would be enough of a warning for me.


qbeac said
"Charles" did mention Lucifer in connection to the 33, as an immensely powerful "parasitical" being…

[Icecold]

I have a question about your update Qbeac.

Could you include a few extra questions on your poll.

Q.6a. Do you have joint membership on the Avalon Forum and the Camelot Forum?

Q.6.b Do you have membership on the Avalon forum and not on the Camelot Forum?

Q.7a. Do you believe in Satanism?

Q. 7b. Do you think Satanism is a Christian notion which is a load of horse****?

I have a few other additions.

But these will do for starters.

[Jean-Luc]

Dear qbeac

You might like to read this post from Charles relating to the healing experience that took place a few days ago with 100+ Avalonians or so, with apparently quite a positive outcome for two people concerned.

http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?14685-Request-From-Charles&p=148711&viewfull=1#post148711

Skeptics might think this is yet another trick to fool people.
Everyone's choice but it's not mine.

I'd obviously be happy to get more questions answered.
Lets' just be patient a little bit.
This is all food for thought and things probably just need to mature.

[bashi]

Dear qbeac,
Congratulation for this well crafted opinion making piece.

But it seems that unfortunately an agenda is shining through it very clearly.
Let me just highlight this:



Will Charles honour his word of telling us the full details of his plan (option 3 of the poll)?


What kind of "word" or promise has he given in regards of the poll?

Please post that quote together with a valid link to it !
I could not find it, and do you know why? I think because there is no promise, but you know that, isn't it?

The real questions are:

Why are you trying to put the fake-blame of a broken promise on somebody?

Are you instigating a "poll" with loaded blame-questions? If so, why?

This is now the second thread regarding the same subject by the same member. Why?

Are you having a hidden agenda?
Please prove me wrong by posting the demanded link.

I hope these questions are not having any effect on the credibility of your motives.

Until then, i will follow your advice:



Therefore, please, spread the word so that everybody in the Avalon forum knows about it

[lightblue]

i think the poll is very detailed offering multiple options rightly so... in my opinion the only question missing is whether according to some the credibility of the forum is eroded beyond repair already..i happen to have friends who never wanted to become members and were nevertheless avid regular readers...i get questions like "what has gone on" from them and i do not know what to say really ...so that possibility i feel would need to be addressed...sorry qbeck, that bit i think is missing... other than that, this is a good result of your fine endeavour so we can get a more rounded picture among membership here..

i don't think you have an agenda..if you do, yours must be the same as mine and many people's here which is - wanting to get to the bottom of this all - THE TRUTH that is...

my best wishes to you... :victory: l

.

[Icecold]

4a- I think Internet forums (Avalon included) can be infiltrated or manipulated 4080.00%

4b- I think Internet forums (Avalon included) cannot be infiltrated or manipulated 00%

Infiltrated:

To pass (troops, for example) surreptitiously into enemy-held territory.

To penetrate with hostile intent

To enter or take up positions in gradually or surreptitiously, as for purposes of espionage or takeover

To gain entrance gradually or surreptitiously

Infiltration is a result of OUTSIDE INTERESTS gaining egress.

Outside interests are any interest external to Avalon......in this case.

Members need to realise that as members of this forum, they have an obligation and duty of care to this forum. Mixed loyalties may cause tension.

[bashi]

Sigh...
another Fear-porn post....

[Carmody]

The expression of Democratic ideals requires constant guard. Even when the contrary will is sublimated, the position of constant vigilance must not erode.

That is the hardest part of all, as it requires being in a constant state of awareness.

[ViralSpiral]

The expression of Democratic ideals requires constant guard. Even when the contrary will is sublimated, the position of constant vigilance must not erode.

That is the hardest part of all, as it requires being in a constant state of awareness.

100%. Vigilance is our most useful "weapon"

I equate this thread to an atheist/creationist debate. One requiring proof, the other "knowing".
Neither is right.......... nor wrong. Remember that beliefs are self-perpetuating and self-reinforcing, whichever side of the fence you are on.

I choose not to particpate in the poll.

[bashi]

I choose not to particpate in the poll.

Same for me.
I think it is fundametally flawed.

[chelmostef]

So far out of the poles I have seen conducted on/or for Avalon I can only draw the conculsion that the majority of Avalonians dont really like polls..... And I would be one of them (Sorry)

[aikya]

Mixed loyalties may cause tension.

And differences of opinion enhance creative dialogue.

[chelmostef]

I just did it I voted!!!! Damm! I voted 4B..... And that is becouse no else voted for that option..... I do think forums can be infultrated though...

[bashi]

I just did it I voted!!!! Damm! I voted 4B..... And that is becouse no else voted for that option..... I do think forums can be infultrated though...

You made me change my mind.
Now we are 2 !;)

[SKAWF]

ultimately it doesnt matter on a personal level. nobody is in any physical danger.
on a strange level, if it has been a con,
then its been a pleasure to have been done up like a kipper by a pro.
it exposed a few weaknesses i had, and sparked a bit of life into some other things.

as for the forums credibility
that depends on how people deal with things.
if after having invested so much time and energy in something,
it turns out that thing was folly,
its whether you can disengage from it, put it down,
and focus your attention and energy into something else

whatever doesnt kill you makes you stronger......... or

'life has a habit of dressing up its greatest gifts, in the form of your worst nightmare'

steve

[chelmostef]

I just did it I voted!!!! Damm! I voted 4B..... And that is becouse no else voted for that option..... I do think forums can be infultrated though...

You made me change my mind.
Now we are 2 !;)

Damm it! I thought no one eles in there right mind would vote for that and I could be the 1 voter.... I am the one and only!!!

Not any more though :)

[ace]

Would rather go sit in the sun, on my hill and play with my dog.

Haven't you noticed

things have moved on.

Ace

Well of course things have moved on. What other alternative is there BUT to move on? The kind of questions people should be asking themselves are:

Have I learned anything useful from it?
Has it made me a better soul?
Have I managed to drink a little from the cup of wisdom?
Did it bring clarity to my view and thinking?
Has it made me a better or worse person?
Does it have any consequence on how I would treat information of the same kind in the future?
How will I react to the next character that turns up with "information" and no proof?

Simply to say, time to move on, is tantamount to saying: oh well, never mind, it was good while it lasted, can we have some more please. Even if it is proven beyond all doubt that the Charles material was fake and completely without substance, you should still have learned something from it by enquiring of yourself the above questions, otherwise, it truly was a complete waste of time.

Please, do enlighten us, with your response to your seven questions.

Ace

[K626]

A serious poll at last.

Well done Qbacca.

cheers

K

[lightblue]

bashi
Sigh...
another Fear-porn post....

see what are you advocating this time around...

we saw you already in the roles of:

pseudo scientist, pseudo spiritualist, pseudo spiritual adviser, pseudo prophet, pseudo alchemist, devils advocate (from either side and from any point to view); you've been something of a bully lately chasing some of the members around issuing threats, posting horrifying images (you probably would argue this was not meant to intimidate/scare but to enlighten; i saved the pages with your original quotes so no need to go back and edit out..too late, it's all kept in the edits archive anyway)...then: recently not so successful healing medium (suffered not very pleasant side effects, i am sorry you did); also been banned for 7 days for breaching forum guidelines - got re-vamped in less than 36 hours though for an unknown reason...

and now i see you relentlessly advocating blind faith...you imply there's need no need for further info... no clarification according to you is necessary as, according to you - we already have a clear instruction on how to "save" a "deserving" fraction of humanity.. what you seem to be advocating these days is an outright obedience of, for the most part, unwilling membership...see how you go...

according to me though you need to lower your voice so to be heard in the first place... :yu: l

.

[kouby]

I'm sorry to say that I believe Avalon's credibility has already been quite injured by material like Charles, Hoagland, Icke and Maxwell. Icke does put out good points, but his attitude towards "non-believers" is just a dead give-away.
Insulting non-believers is just a way of blowing up the ego of the believers, and if you really want fear-porn Icke is the way to go.
Hoagland has been so discredited it's not even worth speaking about.
Maxwell's scaremongering is so blatant it's not worth going into.

Note that I'm not saying that all their information is junk, but that's how disinformation and scaremongering works: 80% valid info just to sell off the disinfo.

The fact that so much time has been awarded to the "Charles material" when all he is saying is rehashing already mainstream information for a couple of hours for me is an example of how Avalon has been damaged recently.

When first coming across the Avalon material I new that a certain amount would be junk, that's how the search for truth works, you can't help but cross the odd disinfo artist, conman and the likes.

But I really find it saddening how so much of Bill's time has been wasted on this stuff. There's LOTS going around in the world at the moment. The place to get info now is the middle east, with the recent changes in Egypt I would have thought Bill would have been all over the place. The whole of the middle east is moving, this is the time to get some people talking about what they know about ancient history, government-CIA connections, maybe get a little look into some museum back-rooms, get some names to investigate, some industry insiders to spill a few beans, etc etc.

Anyway sorry for the negative connotation of this post, but the amount of energy spent on this material is really getting to me ='(
I think it's time for me to go for a walk in the mountains.

[Rocky_Shorz]

who cares, you all got what you wanted...

tared and feathered and thrown unceremoniously out the door...

some of us knew from the beginning and are ashamed at how Charles was treated...

[bashi]

bashi
Sigh...
another Fear-porn post....

see what are you advocating this time around...

we saw you already in the roles of:

pseudo scientist, pseudo spiritualist, pseudo spiritual adviser, pseudo prophet, pseudo alchemist, devils advocate (from either side and from any point to view); you've been something of a bully lately chasing some of the members around issuing threats, posting horrifying images (you probably would argue this was not meant to intimidate/scare but to enlighten; i saved the pages with your original quotes so no need to go back and edit out..too late, it's all kept in the edits archive anyway)...then: recently not so successful healing medium (suffered not very pleasant side effects, i am sorry you did); also been banned for 7 days for breaching forum guidelines - got re-vamped in less than 36 hours though for an unknown reason...

and now i see you relentlessly advocating blind faith...you imply there's need no need for further info... no clarification according to you is necessary as, according to you - we already have a clear instruction on how to "save" a "deserving" fraction of humanity.. what you seem to be advocating these days is an outright obedience of, for the most part, unwilling membership...see how you go...

according to me though you need to lower your voice so to be heard in the first place... :yu: l

.

i would be happy to see my quotes again. POST THE QUOTES WITH LINKS!
No vague smearing as in the past!
Prove to be a lion and not a puppy!

¤=[Post Update]=¤




Damm it! I thought no one eles in there right mind would vote for that and I could be the 1 voter.... I am the one and only!!!

Not any more though :)

sorry can`t withdraw my vote from this "serious" poll ;)

[lightblue]

bashi
would be happy to see my quotes again. POST THE QUOTES WITH LINKS!
No vague smearing as in the past!
Prove to be a lion and not a puppy!

i do not need to prove anything, i don't stand accused - the illustration of your manner and history of postings is all over the forum..it's for everyone to see....


No vague smearing as in the past!

there was no vague smearing is the past unless you thought of yourself in relation to other people ..my challenging of your status and manner is found on your "avalon flag" thread and you use a wrong terminology to describe it..


Prove to be a lion and not a puppy

again, i do not need to prove anything to you...
plus my name here is not lion or puppy, it is lightblue.. :yu: l


.

[bashi]

bashi
would be happy to see my quotes again. POST THE QUOTES WITH LINKS!
No vague smearing as in the past!
Prove to be a lion and not a puppy!

i do not need to prove anything, i don't stand accused - the illustration of your manner and history of postings is all over the forum..it's for everyone to see....


No vague smearing as in the past!

there was no vague smearing is the past unless you thought of yourself in relation to other people ..my challenging of your status and manner is found on your "avalon flag" thread and you use a wrong terminology to describe it..


Prove to be a lion and not a puppy

again, i do not need to prove anything to you...
plus my name here is not lion or puppy, it is lightblue.. :yu: l


.

Well, this time i will have mercy, but be warned: NO MORE!

Nuff said

[Ouroboros]

Would like to be able to make two points.
I agree that public forums can be infiltrated
I'd also like Bill and others to debate the validity of the CM further.

[jorr lundstrom]

Sigh...
another Fear-porn post....

I cant really see the fear in this. Is it fear if I realize that I can die from cancer?

Or is is it just as usual in the eyes of the beholder?:nod:

[VajraYaya]

qbeac – Holy COW dude… Time to MOVE ON..

It’s hard enough to know where to being with all this. You are not going to be able to see all of what I write but here it is anyway. This’ll be a bunch of disjointed ideas.. I’m just going to dump a bunch of it out.

I swore I wasn’t going to give your stuff any energy but I have to just once.

The poll is an utter waste of time, horribly victim biased and horribly incomplete.

Who are the elite to you, someone who drives a faster car or has a nicer house? You see yourself as separate from them therefore you can never hope to understand them. Have you ever sat down and shared a glass of wine or a meal with someone you deem to be elite? Had a conversation about family, love, dogs, flowers? Try it you may be surprised at what you learn not only about them but about yourself and the world as a whole.

You are still pouting because Charles didn’t answer your question. Chares didn’t answer a lot of people’s questions, they moved on, continued their lives and continued reading what did come out. Simple.. peaceful..

When Charles didn’t answer your question, you seemed to take it as a personal attack, [victim consciousness], see him as being evasive or projected some other negative motive to this perceived slight, instead of understanding that maybe the guy has a busy life outside of Avalon, could only give so much energy to poring over the reams of questions that people were asking. Short answers made it easier to get through the huge amount of it. You seem blind to the many long hours he spent doing that when he could have been doing something else. You chose to see yourself as a victim and are therefore expecting something nefarious. It seems that this is only what you are able or willing to see. You are driven by VICTIM consciousness. You will be happier at Camelot where your perspectives are shared by many there. Please don’t bring it here.

Instant gratification: You are like a kid in July stamping his feet and yelling “I WANT IT TO BE CHRISTMAS NOW.. I WANT IT ..I WANT ALL THE ANSWERS NOW…” If I were Charles I would have ignored you too, thus pushing your victim button and watching you destroy your own credibility. Why are you so desperate to know EVERYTHING NOW? Your life will be much more peaceful and you will be able to function at a higher level if you stop struggling, be still with all that is unanswered in your heart, be present with what is and round yourself out and focus on other things until more info becomes available. Simple, peaceful… You can’t push the river. Which of the past “Whistleblowers” [I don’t like using that term for these people, there has to be a better one] has dumped everything they know in one whack? In a single interview? Pete Peterson sure didn’t do it and neither did many others. Besides Charles is coming from a world that is so alien to so many people, that world and that history is so huge, there is no way that he can come out with it all at once and a lot of it may take time for people to digest.

Your questions and statements indicate that you only are able to see things in black and white. [and your update re: Camelot questions not only proves this but proves this is true of so many over there.] I have to tell you that as you grow perceptually you can see that the Universe is composed of shades of lavender, chartreuse, umber, infrared…. We at Avalon can see that and operate from that perspective.

Your update indicated that you give credibility to more victim perceptions than those who can operate beyond that, from a more whole and healed perspective. Maybe you would be more at home at Camelot.

Yes I’m vague, disorganized in thought.. but that is absolutely all the time I’m going do give to this thread.. Life is too short and I can’t get that time back.

[jorr lundstrom]

Forty hours ago I got a PM from another Avalonian to which I replied. Eighteen hours ago I was word by word quoted in a thread from my answer to

the mentioned PM by onother member. Two hours later that post was erased.

So its not a question about if Avalon can be infiltrated, when the infiltrators even can get into the members stored PM:s.

I have said it before and will say it again, dont underestimate the other guys or gals.

Or their total lack of respect, ethics and have an ability to portray theme selves as innocent victims,

though you can observe how they are putting traps in the bushes.

When confronted they just show a scarface and try to make others treat them as martyrs.

And sad enough it looks like some here buy into that. LOL

[bashi]

When confronted they just show a scarface and try to make others treat them as martyrs.

And sad enough it looks like some here buy into that. LOL

I am still waiting to see the evidence of my alleged misconduct...and waiting...and waiting...and....

maybe you should ask lightblue where it is...
until then: :cool:
;)

[lightblue]

bashi:
I am still waiting to see the evidence of my alleged misconduct...and waiting...and waiting...and....

maybe you should ask lightblue where it is...
until then:


BASHI (addressed to me just earlier):
Well, this time i will have mercy, but be warned: NO MORE!

Nuff said


you know , this is just enough to illustrate the point i was making...i actually don't need to present other examples..it's here, this is the latest ... :yes4:

though your finest may have disappeared off the face of the earth - just like your ban last week ...:fie: l

.

.

[Ouroboros]

I'm a new member on Avalon but in my short time here the CM and all the subsequent polls in particular seem to be creating many divisions between forum members. In hindsight perhaps I should not have voted.:confused:

[jorr lundstrom]

When confronted they just show a scarface and try to make others treat them as martyrs.

And sad enough it looks like some here buy into that. LOL

I am still waiting to see the evidence of my alleged misconduct...and waiting...and waiting...and....

maybe you should ask lightblue where it is...
until then: :cool:
;)

Are you talking to me? Cos I dont speak about you here. LOL

I did talk to you when you spoke on Fear- porn thou. LOL

[jjl]

I'm a new member on Avalon but in my short time here the CM and all the subsequent polls in particular seem to be creating many divisions between forum members. In hindsight perhaps I should not have voted.:confused:

In the end, all you can rely on is your own gut feeling....

[ace]

Forty hours ago I got a PM from another Avalonian to which I replied. Eighteen hours ago I was word by word quoted in a thread from my answer to

the mentioned PM by onother member. Two hours later that post was erased.

So its not a question about if Avalon can be infiltrated, when the infiltrators even can get into the members stored PM:s.

I have said it before and will say it again, dont underestimate the other guys or gals.

Or their total lack of respect, ethics and have an ability to portray theme selves as innocent victims,

though you can observe how they are putting traps in the bushes.

When confronted they just show a scarface and try to make others treat them as martyrs.

And sad enough it looks like some here buy into that. LOL

Nothing is safe.

Ace

[bashi]

though your finest may have disappeared off the face of the earth
[/SIZE]


How can that be? You said everything is copied and you have it:



posting horrifying images (you probably would argue this was not meant to intimidate/scare but to enlighten; i saved the pages with your original quotes so no need to go back and edit out..too late, it's all kept in the edits archive anyway

You saved the pages of my misconduct? Good !

Let everybody see them!

I asked you to prove your point and you just keep on running your accusations which seem now to be proven as nothing else than fabricated LIES!

If you can't prove your point, then this is a case of attempted character assassination and a blunt violation of Avalon's spirit!
.

[lightblue]

bashi
I asked you to prove your point and you just keep on running your accusations which seem now to be proven as nothing else than fabricated LIES!

If you can't prove your point, then this is a case of attempted character assassination and a blunt violation of Avalons spirit!

i'll let the readership, bill and mods decide about that...:wink: l

.

[bashi]

bashi
I asked you to prove your point and you just keep on running your accusations which seem now to be proven as nothing else than fabricated LIES!

If you can't prove your point, then this is a case of attempted character assassination and a blunt violation of Avalons spirit!

i'll let the readership, bill and mods decide about that...:wink: l

.

much better; but be careful what you are asking for...

i am out of this type of discussion. bye bye :loco:

[Ahkenaten]

Forty hours ago I got a PM from another Avalonian to which I replied. Eighteen hours ago I was word by word quoted in a thread from my answer to

the mentioned PM by onother member. Two hours later that post was erased.

So its not a question about if Avalon can be infiltrated, when the infiltrators even can get into the members stored PM:s.

I have said it before and will say it again, dont underestimate the other guys or gals.

Or their total lack of respect, ethics and have an ability to portray theme selves as innocent victims,

though you can observe how they are putting traps in the bushes.

When confronted they just show a scarface and try to make others treat them as martyrs.

And sad enough it looks like some here buy into that. LOL

Jorr this is all thanks to the wonders of PROMIS software developed by that criminal genius Buzzy Krongrad

[jorr lundstrom]

bashi
would be happy to see my quotes again. POST THE QUOTES WITH LINKS!
No vague smearing as in the past!
Prove to be a lion and not a puppy!

i do not need to prove anything, i don't stand accused - the illustration of your manner and history of postings is all over the forum..it's for everyone to see....


No vague smearing as in the past!

there was no vague smearing is the past unless you thought of yourself in relation to other people ..my challenging of your status and manner is found on your "avalon flag" thread and you use a wrong terminology to describe it..


Prove to be a lion and not a puppy

again, i do not need to prove anything to you...
plus my name here is not lion or puppy, it is lightblue.. :yu: l


.

Well, this time i will have mercy, but be warned: NO MORE!

Nuff said

Dear bashi. Cool down. You are not in a position to warn anyone or making threats. So please be a little polite, will you?:cool:

[lightblue]

bashi
much better; but be careful what you are asking for...

i really don't require your judgment, neither judgment nor a warning...thanks . . l

.

[jorr lundstrom]

Forty hours ago I got a PM from another Avalonian to which I replied. Eighteen hours ago I was word by word quoted in a thread from my answer to

the mentioned PM by onother member. Two hours later that post was erased.

So its not a question about if Avalon can be infiltrated, when the infiltrators even can get into the members stored PM:s.

I have said it before and will say it again, dont underestimate the other guys or gals.

Or their total lack of respect, ethics and have an ability to portray theme selves as innocent victims,

though you can observe how they are putting traps in the bushes.

When confronted they just show a scarface and try to make others treat them as martyrs.

And sad enough it looks like some here buy into that. LOL

Jorr this is all thanks to the wonder of PROMIS software developed by that criminal genius Buzzy Krongrad


Yeah. As I see it I dont give damn about some Cray5 registering everything at a distance. Its worse that we have

a bunch of wildcards on Avalon with their own agenda, doing what they can to create a disaster.

And when some members try to do something about it, other step foreward and questions the endavours to keep Avalon

clean from those god knows wot to call them.;)

[modwiz]

I really don't like paperwork(questionnaire). lol

[jorr lundstrom]

I just love those falcons and wot they can do. And see no parachute on the falcon

We have a lot to learn from them. Watch and enjoy.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j3mTPEuFcWk

[Humble Janitor]

To me, it's a combination of 1a and 4a.

If Charles had laid everything on the table for people to see, I'd have more respect for him. However, I strongly feel that these forums have been manipulated.

[jorr lundstrom]

To me, it's a combination of 1a and 4a.

If Charles had laid everything on the table for people to see, I'd have more respect for him. However, I strongly feel that these forums have been manipulated.

I just dont agree with you. Im afraid we had no Avalon if Charles had put everything on the table.

My observation is that many here cant even handle that Charles refuse to walk in their leash.

So how should they handle the wot I presume explosive information that man is carrying?

Oh yes this forun is manipulated, both from without and within, so lets work together to

stop those manipulations. LOL

[qbeac]

i think the poll is very detailed offering multiple options rightly so [*1]... in my opinion the only question missing is [*2] whether according to some the credibility of the forum is eroded beyond repair [*3] already..i happen to have friends who never wanted to become members and were nevertheless avid regular readers...i get questions like "what has gone on" from them and i do not know what to say really ...so that possibility i feel would need to be addressed...sorry qbeck, that bit i think is missing [*4]... other than that, this is a good result of your fine endeavour so we can get a more rounded picture among membership here..

i don't think you have an agenda..if you do, yours must be the same as mine and many people's here which is - wanting to get to the bottom of this all - THE TRUTH that is...[*5]

my best wishes to you... :victory: l

.
Hi lightblue, thanks a lot for offering your opinion, and I agree with you.

With respect to the sentences I’ve underlined in your post:

*1. Thanks a lot.

*2 and *4. I wanted to include more options in the poll, but as I mentioned in post 1, the forum system only allows a maximum of 10 options. I don’t know if that number could be increased by the mods…??? The other possibility would be opening other polls with different options.

*3. I don’t think so because nobody is perfect, we all make errors, and also because of the sentence I included in Post#1: “An error doesn't become a mistake until you refuse to correct it.” (John F. Kennedy)

*5. lightblue, we agree 100% on that.

With regards to the people who might not like this poll (as some users have suggested), the good thing about polls is that they are not like a hair cut.

If we don’t like our hair cut we have to wait till our hair grows again and then get a new hair cut.

But with polls we don’t have to wait because anybody can open a new one anytime. So, if anybody doesn’t like this poll, no problem, easy solution: Exercise your Freedom of Speech and open the poll of your own choosing, with the questions and words of your own choosing, to gather the data of your own choosing.

A poll is just an instrument to gather different type of data (information) by asking, for instance, different types of questions:

Poll, survey
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_poll
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/poll



… An opinion poll is a survey of public opinion from a particular sample…

… A survey of the public … to acquire information…

… a survey consists of a number of questions that the respondent has to answer…

… very large samples are feasible, making the results statistically significant…


That last sentence also means, as I mentioned in post 1, that the more people that participate in the poll, the more statistically significant its results will be.

[Tangri]

I feel that the only way to get out of this mess is for Bill to really come out clean, with full disclosure and truth about entire event. I know that it is the most difficult thing to do, and now I believe I am seeing signs of trying to "close the whole thing" silently and without much fuss, trying to keep all major players "intact'- Charles is apparently leaving because "his information is not for minors" and nonsense like that.

However, trying to employ means of darkness (lies, deceit and manipulation) will never lead to light because betrayal never leads to love (IMO many truthful and valuable people were betrayed just to keep Charles's reputation intact), lie never gives birth to truth and deception never breeds knowledge.

We can all mess things up, but than again we should have courage and integrity to make them right again...

Of course, there is also possibility that Bill's hands are in some way tied or that he is under some kind of threat- considering with what kind of forces he entangled himself with, this is also possibility.

Above , a must be sleep on it case

[modwiz]

Certain information gets you dead. A lot of 9/11 witnesses have gone bye bye.

Handling this gun the wrong way will get you acute lead poisoning.

[Northern Boy]

1a- The first Poll said Charles must disclose full details, so I’d expect him to do so...........
Won`t happen if such a plan existed you would only divulge it to those you would be attacking


1b- The first Poll said Charles must disclose full details, but I don’t mind if he doesn’t
Sounds like what happened here dispite the result


2a- Unless further key info is provided by Charles, the CM isn’t reliable enough so far
2b- Based on the info provided by Charles so far, the CM is reliable enough already
People have already accepted or rejected it irrelevant question


3a- If the CM turns out incorrect, the credibility of Bill-Avalon could be deteriorated
3b- Even if CM turns out incorrect, credibility of Bill-Avalon couldn’t be deteriorated
Some on other forums believe that to be the case before this came out


4a- I think Internet forums (Avalon included) can be infiltrated or manipulated
4b- I think Internet forums (Avalon included) cannot be infiltrated or manipulated
Yes they can be infiltrated they have tried to do it here on a few occasions


5a- I’d like Bill and other experts to debate publicly the validity of the CM
5b- I don’t want Bill and other experts to debate publicly the validity of the CM

Why have others debate the issue when you can decide for yourself I see a constant need for some to have to get other people to validate things before they decide if its factual or not . Use your own mind if it feels right for you then go with it if not then disregard it . Bill is only one person he doesn`t have all the answers he is human and as such subject to the frailties that go with it. He can be wrong just like any one else .

[ponda]

Northern Boy said
Why have others debate the issue when you can decide for yourself I see a constant need for some to have to get other people to validate things before they decide if its factual or not . Use your own mind if it feels right for you then go with it if not then disregard it . Bill is only one person he doesn`t have all the answers he is human and as such subject to the frailties that go with it. He can be wrong just like any one else .



Well said and good advice.

[sunnyrap]

I have to disagree...the value of debate and of a forum for that matter, is in having the advantage of getting different points of view. Different people notice/focus on different details. I value highly keen observers who may pick up on bits that I miss due to lack of experience in an area. Relying ONLY on your own understanding is foolish. Its why megalomaniacs eventually fail.

[Ahkenaten]

Forty hours ago I got a PM from another Avalonian to which I replied. Eighteen hours ago I was word by word quoted in a thread from my answer to

the mentioned PM by onother member. Two hours later that post was erased.

So its not a question about if Avalon can be infiltrated, when the infiltrators even can get into the members stored PM:s.

I have said it before and will say it again, dont underestimate the other guys or gals.

Or their total lack of respect, ethics and have an ability to portray theme selves as innocent victims,

though you can observe how they are putting traps in the bushes.

When confronted they just show a scarface and try to make others treat them as martyrs.

And sad enough it looks like some here buy into that. LOL

Jorr this is all thanks to the wonder of PROMIS software developed by that criminal genius Buzzy Krongrad


Yeah. As I see it I dont give damn about some Cray5 registering everything at a distance. Its worse that we have

a bunch of wildcards on Avalon with their own agenda, doing what they can to create a disaster.

And when some members try to do something about it, other step foreward and questions the endavours to keep Avalon

clean from those god knows wot to call them.;)


Jor said "keep Avalon clean from those god knows wot to call them" - in reply I said:
Call them by their name - they are monsters of the worst kind, people who in exchange for food, clothing, water and shelter "just taking orders" or "just doing their jobs" enter into groups of people for the purpose of disrupting and sabotaging a social network out of pure malice.

[greybeard]

I have to disagree...the value of debate and of a forum for that matter, is in having the advantage of getting different points of view. Different people notice/focus on different details. I value highly keen observers who may pick up on bits that I miss due to lack of experience in an area. Relying ONLY on your own understanding is foolish. Its why megalomaniacs eventually fail.

The mind is conditioned to believe in a certain way.
It filters out irrelevant to you information before you are consciously aware and automatically asks subconsciously "Does this lead to pain or pleasure?"
what leads to pleasure for you can lead to pain for some one else hence the sometimes heated debate on Charles

An easy way is to look at any sports game involving teams. My team scored the goal, Oh yes did you kick the Ball?
Identification so strong with the team that most will not accept that the other side had good moves and if the other side wins then the fan is desolate,
This should not have happened, Yes some really can enjoy the game win or lose and give credit to th other side.
In Glasgow you can still get physically beaten up for going into the wrong pub wearing the wrong football colors.

It really helps to understand the mind if you read books like "Power vs Force Hidden determinants to human behavior" by Dr David Hawkins

chris

[ponda]

I have to disagree...the value of debate and of a forum for that matter, is in having the advantage of getting different points of view. Different people notice/focus on different details. I value highly keen observers who may pick up on bits that I miss due to lack of experience in an area. Relying ONLY on your own understanding is foolish. Its why megalomaniacs eventually fail.

Yes of course take in all the info but make your own decisions and use your own discernment.You can't always rely on others to do your thinking for you and other people do make mistakes and do rely on a different set of life experiences to come to their own conclusions.What is good and right for one person is not always good and right for another.

cheers

[sunnyrap]

I don't see how you can fail to make your own decisions or act on your own discernment--there's only you (most of the time) in your own head. But after having vigorous debate served up to you, you are certainly armed with much more information and understanding than before. Even less educated or experienced minds will find themselves better able to resonate with one view or the other. That might be mistaken as 'letting others make your decision for you", but in truth, your agreement with one view over another is always just your choice. IMHO, even the least sophisticated of souls has the ability to detect truth from dare...

[greybeard]

I don't see how you can fail to make your own decisions or act on your own discernment--there's only you (most of the time) in your own head. But after having vigorous debate served up to you, you are certainly armed with much more information and understanding than before. Even less educated or experienced minds will find themselves better able to resonate with one view or the other. That might be mistaken as 'letting others make your decision for you", but in truth, your agreement with one view over another is always just your choice. IMHO, even the least sophisticated of souls has the ability to detect truth from dare...

I see what you are saying but if logic was applied then there would be a strong possibility that we would all come to the same conclusions, such is not the case.

Logic would say dont follow some one like Hitler Millions did Millions died.

Any Psychiatrist would tell you that the human mind is incapable of telling truth from falsehood with out standing back and doing an audit on the verifiable facts.
People will often say, I believe this, it resonates with me. So how come someone with an opposite view will say exactly the same thing.

In other words Its like saying "If something resonates with me it is undeniably true" I will fight to the death to defend my belief, people do.

When you get into serious study of the mind it is an eye opener,
Eckhart toll says "Dont take your thoughts too seriously"
I would go along with that.

Chris

[Sentience]

Comment nullified as didn't click quote button correctly.

Must try harder.

[sunnyrap]

And I see what you are saying Chris, and it is certainly reasonable. However, I'd like to point at a distinction between logic and 'resonate'. 'Resonating' is a matter of listening to heart/gut vs. mind/logic, which is always dependent upon a bunch of facts--which are too often too scanty. I'll often resonate to a position even when the facts don't seem to support it. And my instincts seem to be supported over time much more often than my logic. Perhaps because the 'gut' has access to far more information than the mind.

To be honest, there is a serious limitation on a forum in which we are just seeing written words. It is the sounds made, postures held, cast of eyes, lips, etc. that give the most, and most accurate information. Words put boxes around thoughts that can't be escaped, sometimes.

[9eagle9]

There was no 'the point is moot' option. As I read the CM I saw where it can be used for a) greater good or of course b) greater 'not good.. ;)

Then there arrived a point as this progressed where this big blaring event happened.One that if it held water would make the grade being paved here. But if didn't hold water....well it wouldn't either way. A hand, as it were was overplayed. Which I thought would bring the whole matter to a grinding halt. As I reflected on that I had that feeling of 'this is the way it should be.' Sorta like the war is over but ...the battle will wage on I'm sure. As it must.

Now the hand played can be taken back or reshuffled but as it stands now...stalemate. May have been for very good reason. Balance which is neutral is a lot less subtle these days, and I trust it knows what its doing. IN the wonderful way of the universe what may first appear to be a dead end road, opens up into a wider avenue.

[aikya]

I see what you are saying but if logic was applied then there would be a strong possibility that we would all come to the same conclusions, such is not the case.

Logic would say dont follow some one like Hitler Millions did Millions died.

Chris

I agree with you to some extent, Chris. But what also comes to mind here is that any opposition to Hitler's ideals and actions was suppressed. A point was reached where [ublic debate wasn't allowed, and that suppression of public debate, and in fact any opposition, is usually the precursor to the worst kind of actions.

We are in a similar situation with the MSM in most of the world today. Truth and any meaningful opposition is avoided and suppressed, although not yet to the extent it was in Nazi Germany.

I'm not saying that even if the information was available everyone would recognise the truth, I agree with what you say, but the better informed people are, the more likely it is that more people will recognise the truth for themselves.

[jorr lundstrom]

I don't see how you can fail to make your own decisions or act on your own discernment--there's only you (most of the time) in your own head. But after having vigorous debate served up to you, you are certainly armed with much more information and understanding than before. Even less educated or experienced minds will find themselves better able to resonate with one view or the other. That might be mistaken as 'letting others make your decision for you", but in truth, your agreement with one view over another is always just your choice. IMHO, even the least sophisticated of souls has the ability to detect truth from dare...

I see what you are saying but if logic was applied then there would be a strong possibility that we would all come to the same conclusions, such is not the case.

Logic would say dont follow some one like Hitler Millions did Millions died.

Any Psychiatrist would tell you that the human mind is incapable of telling truth from falsehood with out standing back and doing an audit on the verifiable facts.
People will often say, I believe this, it resonates with me. So how come someone with an opposite view will say exactly the same thing.

In other words Its like saying "If something resonates with me it is undeniably true" I will fight to the death to defend my belief, people do.

When you get into serious study of the mind it is an eye opener,
Eckhart toll says "Dont take your thoughts too seriously"
I would go along with that.

Chris

Logic now says dont follow Hitler. In the context of Nazi Germany it was totally logic to follow him. LOL

[aikya]

To me, it's a combination of 1a and 4a.

If Charles had laid everything on the table for people to see, I'd have more respect for him. However, I strongly feel that these forums have been manipulated.

I just dont agree with you. Im afraid we had no Avalon if Charles had put everything on the table.

My observation is that many here cant even handle that Charles refuse to walk in their leash.

So how should they handle the wot I presume explosive information that man is carrying?

Oh yes this forun is manipulated, both from without and within, so lets work together to

stop those manipulations. LOL

I'm wondering what evidence from the forum makes you believe the 'explosive material' that you believe Charles is handling can't be handled by many?
For example, many of the members voted for that information to be shared.

[jorr lundstrom]

Sunnyrap, Im all for my gut. Mind is so easy to manipulate. I see desicions are based on gut and feeling,

then comes mind and tries to hijack the process and claims that its the deciding factor. So easy to fool

oneself if one isnt very alert. LOL

[jorr lundstrom]

To me, it's a combination of 1a and 4a.

If Charles had laid everything on the table for people to see, I'd have more respect for him. However, I strongly feel that these forums have been manipulated.

I just dont agree with you. Im afraid we had no Avalon if Charles had put everything on the table.

My observation is that many here cant even handle that Charles refuse to walk in their leash.

So how should they handle the wot I presume explosive information that man is carrying?

Oh yes this forun is manipulated, both from without and within, so lets work together to

stop those manipulations. LOL

I'm wondering what evidence from the forum makes you believe the 'explosive material' that you believe Charles is handling can't be handled by many?
For example, many of the members voted for that information to be shared.

Just voting for something doesnt mean that those who voted for it can handle it if they had get it.

Of course I cant prove it, its my feeling based on wot I have witnessed here on Avalon.

My life isnt based on proof are yours? LOL

[aikya]

[

Just voting for something doesnt mean that those who voted for it can handle it if they had get it.

Of course I cant prove it, its my feeling based on wot I have witnessed here on Avalon.

My life isnt based on proof are yours? LOL

I didn't ask you to provie it, I asked what you had seen on the forum that had led you to form this opinion.

I am assuming that people who voted for it to be disclosed had decided they could handle it....and I respect their decision.

You seem to be implying that they aren't capable of making the right decision for themselves, so I was wondering why.

I am guessing, perhaps wrongly, that you don't consider yourself to be among those who 'can't handle it'.

[Arc]

Thanks for the great poll questions. I like all of the options, which I believe give a more detailed segmentation of our Avalon population, regarding how we truly feel about all of the Charles material.

Through this whole drama, I have remained cautious, while keeping an open mind. Excited, yet critical. Giving Charles the benefit of the doubt while still noting some doubts. Feeling a bit unsure of Bill's discernment on the topic, while at the same time still holding Bill in a very high regard and with great respect for his integrity.

I will be curious to analyze the results of this poll and reconcile it with my intuition.

[ponda]

I don't see how you can fail to make your own decisions or act on your own discernment--there's only you (most of the time) in your own head. But after having vigorous debate served up to you, you are certainly armed with much more information and understanding than before. Even less educated or experienced minds will find themselves better able to resonate with one view or the other. That might be mistaken as 'letting others make your decision for you", but in truth, your agreement with one view over another is always just your choice. IMHO, even the least sophisticated of souls has the ability to detect truth from dare...


Well it's 'almost' impossible to not directly make your own decisions but what can be important is that by sometimes listening for too long to the wrong kind of information one can be 'influenced' indirectly to make the wrong decision unknowingly.Moderation in all things suitable.Influences on the human mind can be very subtle and the negative forces that are all around us know this only too well.Sure you can never be too well informed but IMHO it's always a good idea to be open minded about what is truth and what is dare...objectivity of perception is the key IMHO.

cheers

[Creative Lorraine]

Qbeac, I personally want to thank you for your work.
I have a strong intuition of your style of work and the person behind the words
I have a Genesis Son 25 He started at yahoo went to Digg now at Twitter..
My point is I have always been some what like u and my Son just not educated with words
I show my talent through my work of hands Art/Create material substance from ugly to the Wow factor
But it disturbs me a lot that i don't have the education to place words in a format to even write a book
I some times can be OCD and perfectionist ,but have learned to let go... cuz it can eat at u.
I am inspired of ur work and understand it ..So continue ur Journey cuz I know its ur Passion!!
Luv
lorraine

[jorr lundstrom]

[

Just voting for something doesnt mean that those who voted for it can handle it if they had get it.

Of course I cant prove it, its my feeling based on wot I have witnessed here on Avalon.

My life isnt based on proof are yours? LOL

I didn't ask you to provie it, I asked what you had seen on the forum that had led you to form this opinion.

I am assuming that people who voted for it to be disclosed had decided they could handle it....and I respect their decision.

You seem to be implying that they aren't capable of making the right decision for themselves, so I was wondering why.

I am guessing, perhaps wrongly, that you don't consider yourself to be among those who 'can't handle it'.


The first one: Its a collected impression of wot Ive seen here since I joined.

The second: Iam convinced that they had decided that they could handle it.

But Charles obviously was clever enough to see they couldnt.

The third: No, Im not at all sure that they could make the right decision.

Im not gonna tell you why, just an advice. Look around.

The fourth: Im not at all convinced that I could handle it. Thats why

I voted on nr 2.

And wot about my question to you? Do you base your life on proof?

[Northern Boy]

i didn`t vote . I hold Bill in no higher regard then what i hold myself. He may be privy to some things we members are unaware of but that makes him slightly more informed

[aikya]

[

Just voting for something doesnt mean that those who voted for it can handle it if they had get it.

Of course I cant prove it, its my feeling based on wot I have witnessed here on Avalon.

My life isnt based on proof are yours? LOL

I didn't ask you to provie it, I asked what you had seen on the forum that had led you to form this opinion.

I am assuming that people who voted for it to be disclosed had decided they could handle it....and I respect their decision.

You seem to be implying that they aren't capable of making the right decision for themselves, so I was wondering why.

I am guessing, perhaps wrongly, that you don't consider yourself to be among those who 'can't handle it'.


The first one: Its a collected impression of wot Ive seen here since I joined.

The second: Iam convinced that they had decided that they could handle it.

But Charles obviously was clever enough to see they couldnt.



I see. I hadn't understood that was your personal interpretation of Charles subsequent actions. Thanks for clarifying that.




The third: No, Im not at all sure that they could make the right decision.

Im not gonna tell you why, just an advice. Look around.

The fourth: Im not at all convinced that I could handle it. Thats why

I voted on nr 2.

And wot about my question to you? Do you base your life on proof?

Thanks again. I appreciate you clarifying that.


Since I hadn't asked for proof, I assumed the question was redundant.

But, since you insist, lol: No.

[qbeac]

Hi everyone, at the end of post #1 (pag. 1) I’ve included an important update (Feb-22-2011).

The update has to do with certain type of software technology designed by the US government (or the elite) to create false “personas” (or fake personalities, cyber presences) to infiltrate Internet forums and manipulate the info.

On top of that we need to consider some of the things Charles and others have explained about the increbible capacity of current state of the art Artificial Intelligence Machines (AI, Super Computers) at the disposal of the elite, AI which has almost science fiction characteristicsand could even simulate to a certain extent the behaviour of a human being.

The questions are:



1) Is that type of software technology already working?

2) Could they have used that type of technology to infiltrate this forum or other ones?
For more details see the update at the end of post 1 (Feb-22-2011).

[Ahkenaten]

And I see what you are saying Chris, and it is certainly reasonable. However, I'd like to point at a distinction between logic and 'resonate'. 'Resonating' is a matter of listening to heart/gut vs. mind/logic, which is always dependent upon a bunch of facts--which are too often too scanty. I'll often resonate to a position even when the facts don't seem to support it. And my instincts seem to be supported over time much more often than my logic. Perhaps because the 'gut' has access to far more information than the mind.

To be honest, there is a serious limitation on a forum in which we are just seeing written words. It is the sounds made, postures held, cast of eyes, lips, etc. that give the most, and most accurate information. Words put boxes around thoughts that can't be escaped, sometimes.

Sunnywrap - it is not an "Either/Or" situation, you are presenting a false dichotomy, perhaps unintentionally - there are an infinite number of possibilities, however basic common sense and the use of discernment and logic, which is unfortunately deliberately underemphasized in the so-called education people are getting today, is absolutely necessary to be a fully-functioning human animal.

[Ahkenaten]

I don't see how you can fail to make your own decisions or act on your own discernment--there's only you (most of the time) in your own head. But after having vigorous debate served up to you, you are certainly armed with much more information and understanding than before. Even less educated or experienced minds will find themselves better able to resonate with one view or the other. That might be mistaken as 'letting others make your decision for you", but in truth, your agreement with one view over another is always just your choice. IMHO, even the least sophisticated of souls has the ability to detect truth from dare...

I see what you are saying but if logic was applied then there would be a strong possibility that we would all come to the same conclusions, such is not the case.

Logic would say dont follow some one like Hitler Millions did Millions died.

Any Psychiatrist would tell you that the human mind is incapable of telling truth from falsehood with out standing back and doing an audit on the verifiable facts.
People will often say, I believe this, it resonates with me. So how come someone with an opposite view will say exactly the same thing.

In other words Its like saying "If something resonates with me it is undeniably true" I will fight to the death to defend my belief, people do.

When you get into serious study of the mind it is an eye opener,
Eckhart toll says "Dont take your thoughts too seriously"
I would go along with that.

Chris

Logic now says dont follow Hitler. In the context of Nazi Germany it was totally logic to follow him. LOL

And the scary thing, Jorr, is that - for some, whether they understand the implications of their thoughts and actions, that would still be the case. And today, those people make strange bedfellows indeed.

[bitworm]

Hi everyone, at the end of post #1 (pag. 1) I’ve included an important update (Feb-22-2011).

The update has to do with certain type of software technology designed by the US government (or the elite) to create false “personas” (or fake personalities, cyber presences) to infiltrate Internet forums and manipulate the info.

On top of that we need to consider some of the things Charles and others have explained about the increbible capacity of current state of the art Artificial Intelligence Machines (AI, Super Computers) at the disposal of the elite, AI which has almost science fiction characteristicsand could even simulate to a certain extent the behaviour of a human being.

The questions are:



1) Is that type of software technology already working?

2) Could they have used that type of technology to infiltrate this forum or other ones?
For more details see the update at the end of post 1 (Feb-22-2011).

The capacity to develop this type of software has been around at least 5 years. It is not as state-of-the-art as these reports are making it sound. The only difference here is that it was made known that government agencies are interested in it. If anything, they are playing catch-up.

The procedure to get membership here makes it a lot more difficult for automated profile creation. There would have to be humans involved for part of the process. However, since new members are manually screened, there are humans involved on both sides. With the abnormally high rate of new members coming in over the last several weeks, it's reasonable to conclude some may have slipped through. Not 1000, not 60-70, maybe 10. Much more than that would have required more time, or it would be obvious to the trained eye to spot the patterns.

[schnurfel]

Feb-22-2011

Update about software technology to infiltrate Internet forums

This update is about certain type of software technology designed by the US government (or the elite) to create false “personas” (or fake personalities, cyber presences) to infiltrate Internet forums and manipulate the info.

On top of that we also need to consider some of the things Charles and others (Ex: Benjamin Fulford) have explained about the incredible capacity of current state of the art Artificial Intelligence Machines (AI, Super Computers) at the disposal of the elite, AI which has almost science fiction characteristics and could even simulate to a certain extent the behaviour of a human being.

The questions are:



1) Is that type of software technology already working?

2) Could they have used that type of technology to infiltrate this forum or other ones?
This is a link with info about this type of technology:

More HBGary Federal Fallout: The Government Wants To Buy Software To Fake Online Grassroots Social Media Campaigns
http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20110218/02143213163/more-hbgary-federal-fallout-government-wants-to-buy-software-to-fake-online-grassroots-social-media-campaigns.shtml#comments



The latest in the long line of revelations from the HBGary Federal email leak, is that HBGary Federal wanted to create software that could make it easy for staffers to create and maintain a massive number of fake online social network personas, allowing them to control virtual armies of totally fake people, whose only mission is to spy on others and spew paid-for propaganda.

But, what's even more amazing is that not only did the emails reveal HBGary Federal employees talking about building a platform for letting people more easily manage an army of fake personas, but that the US government put out a request for exactly that kind of software last June, with its request for "Persona Management Software."



“Software will allow 10 personas per user, replete with background, history, supporting details, and cyber presences that are technically, culturally and geographically consistent. Individual applications will enable an operator to exercise a number of different online persons from the same workstation and without fear of being discovered by sophisticated adversaries.”

“Personas must be able to appear to originate in nearly any part of the world and can interact through conventional online services and social media platforms. The service includes a user friendly application environment to maximize the user's situational awareness by displaying real-time local information.”
The following are some comments about this topic posted in the Project Camelot forum with speculations about how many new members joined the Avalon forum at the beginning of January-2011 and right after the Charles Interview was announced by Bill Ryan, and whether or not some of those new members could be or not “software personas”:

Project Camelot forum
CHARLES AND THE ADVENT OF "V" ON THE PEOPLE
http://camelotforum.com/index.php?option=com_kunena&func=view&catid=37&id=20465&Itemid=147



… So somewhere in the neighbourhood of 800 -1000 new members [joined the Avalon forum right after January-1-11 due to the Charles Interview]?

… Just going by how many times Charles is "thanked" for his posts I'd say roughly around 60-70 followers. That sound about right? I wonder how many of those are actual live people... it could actually only be 6 or 7. I think that was pretty much alluded to on the Heather ect. thread.

….It's my understanding there is a group of IT techs who have sold their souls to TPTB and they are in the business of busting up alternative/truth/conspiracy websites and forums. It's what they do to keep the truth from getting out. Too bad...they're losing!

Thanks for this interesting update qbeac!

From my own experience in the field of computer science I happen to know this type of software to be operational since the early 2000s (roughly for 8 years now). Any computer scientist worth his/her degree will confirm that that type of software is in existence and is not SiFi at all. The performance and results were sometimes pretty stunning even back then. Nowadays it might take quite some efforts to possibly find out and prove that there is a machine on the other end operating on forums making comments, sending PMs and liking comments. Therefore I think it is possible that there is indeed a machine "at work" on the Avalon Forum - the only problem I would see is the automatic registration process, I don´t think it is possible at the time to have this done by a machine.

There is also another thing to consider: PTB all over the world employ giant PR-firms to steer comment sections, forums etc. on the web and they also have been doing so for years. Just look at the crazy talk that is sometimes produced... e.g.: "Enlightened". Properly programmed machines could (and of course would!) be made to avoid the production of such extreme B*LL*H*T that blows up right in the face.
We could well be having both the problems here on the forum.


Regards, schnurfel

[qbeac]

Hi everyone, have any of you thought about the fact that there seems to be quite a lot and distinctive differences between the Charles Material and most of the other Project Camelot-Avalon interviewees?

If you think about it, the differences between the two are quite notorious, don’t you think so?

For instance:



- How many of the other witnesses-whistleblowers have immediately come to the forum to participate in it like Charles has done (quite frequently)?

- And how many have started almost right away to conduct experiments and different types of initiatives (trying to do a fund raising using PayPal, or recruiting a team of Avalon users, etc.)?

- And how many have conducted a poll to ask us if we wanted to hear “the full story”?

- And how many, when asked to please tell us the full story, have said instead that they rather go somewhere else and start their own site?

- And how many have consistently declined to answer so many important questions?

- And in how many other cases has there been a huge avalanche of new users (around 900 at least?) registering in the forum?

- And in how many other cases has there been the rapid formation of two groups of Avalonians with big discrepancies of opinions between them: the followers and not followers of the interviewee?

- And how many of the other witnesses-whistleblowers do not want to be interviewed by anybody else other than by Bill?

…....... etc., etc.
Can you think of other types of differences?

Why do you think there are so many notorious differences? Or maybe you think otherwise?

What do you think those differences could be due to?

One more question for everybody:

Do you agree with the points from “a” to “g” (see Post #1 of this thread) about why so many of us support and are followers of Project Camelot-Avalon?

[Creative Lorraine]

I just left the forum Synchronicity, Numerology, Signs, Stars and Planets.
Read your last Thread
hmmm....I thanked u at 4:53 I noticed u edited today at 14:53
WOW

[DevilPigeon]

in my opinion this poll is fundamentally flawed - it allows mutually exclusive options to be voted on!

just to test my point, i voted for 4a (forums can be infiltrated) & 4b (forums cannot be infiltrated) without a problem.

the results cannot be relied upon, it's an exercise in futility.

[qbeac]

in my opinion this poll is fundamentally flawed - it allows mutually exclusive options to be voted on!

just to test my point, i voted for 4a (forums can be infiltrated) & 4b (forums cannot be infiltrated) without a problem.

the results cannot be relied upon, it's an exercise in futility.
Hi DevilPigeon, you say the poll is flawed, however, I don’t think that’s a correct statement because of the things about how the poll works that I had already explained in Post # 1 (pag. 1) of this thread.

My opinion is that the poll is working fine and its results are valid, valuable, and useful, but in order to interpret them correctly we need to understand how the poll works and what the technical limitations of this forum system (vbulletin) are in relation to making polls.

And as I say, I’ve explained that in Post #1 of this thread, and I’ll add a few more clarifications in the P.S.



So, please, DevilPigeon, have you read Post #1 (pag. 1) of this thread with the instructions and clarifications of how the poll works?

If you have read it, could you please tell me what exactly you didn’t understand about it?

Thanks.

--------------------------------

P.S.1. In post #1 (pag.1) I explain how the poll works, why I did it that way, and what the technical limitations of the poll system of this forum are: maximum number of characters per sentence, maximum number of options, etc.

But let me add a couple more clarifications:

The poll system of this forum does have certain limitations, but that doesn’t mean it’s flawed.

The poll is measuring a clear differential quantity between parts “a” and “b” of each question.

That could also be expressed in mathematical or scientific terms with the concepts of Delta (change of any type), inequality, or data differencing.

DevilPigeon, if you vote the two parts of the same question (“a” and “b”) is similar to not voting.

It’s kind of like if you have skipped that question number 4.

That’s what you have done with question 4, you have not voted (not exactly, but similar), but that’s fine, because many other people ARE voting either “a” or “b” of each question, and the poll is measuring a clear DIFFERENTIAL of opinion between “a” and “b” for each question.

In other words, the poll is not perfect (because of the system technical limitations), but it is valid.

For more details:

Differential
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/differential
Differential. 1. Of, relating to, or showing a difference. 2. Constituting or making a difference; distinctive.

Differential
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Differential_calculus
differential calculus (…) the study of the rates at which quantities change.

Delta (letter)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delta_%28letter%29#Math_and_science
Math and science
The upper-case letter Δ can be used to denote
• Change any type; (in science and engineering fields)

Inequality (mathematics)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Difference_%28mathematics%29
In mathematics, an inequality is a statement how the relative size or order of two objects, or about whether they are the same or not.
• The notation a < b means that a is less than b.
• The notation a > b means that a is greater than b.

Data differencing
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Data_differencing
data differencing or differential compression is producing a technical description of the difference between two sets of data

--------------------------------

P.S.2. Do you know what the poll is showing?

The poll is showing a clear contradiction (or clear distinction) between what many people are expressing in the threads of this forum in general (that they like the CM), and what many other people think about the CM (that they are very sceptical of the CM).

And that contradiction shows itself in the poll because people can vote in an anonymous way.

Therefore, so far the poll shows that many people are very sceptical of the CM, but they are not saying it out loud, and that’s a very significant finding of the poll so far. What is causing that contradiction, could it be fear of speaking out, or shyness, or something else? So, let’s see how the poll results evolve in time.

[DevilPigeon]

Hi DevilPigeon, you say the poll is flawed, however, I don’t think that’s a correct statement because of the things about how the poll works that I had already explained in Post # 1 (pag. 1) of this thread.
.
.
.
DevilPigeon, if you vote the two parts of the same question (“a” and “b”) is similar to not voting.

It’s kind of like if you have skipped that question number 4.

That’s what you have done with question 4, you have not voted (not exactly, but similar), but that’s fine, because many other people ARE voting either “a” or “b” of each question, and the poll is measuring a clear DIFFERENTIAL of opinion between “a” and “b” for each question.

In other words, the poll is not perfect (because of the system technical limitations), but it is valid.
.
.
.


hi

to be fair, i didn't read your covering post properly, and if you think you're getting useful results then power to you my friend...

concerning the a/b posts cancelling each other out, if you can drill down to the individual results then that's certainly possible i guess, but how would you extrapolate those from an aggregated data set....? take for example if you only had 2 votes cast - voter 1 voted for 4a & 4b.... voter 2 voted for 1a & 1b... so both of the individual votes are invalid. however, your aggregated results would show a valid scenario, and you could assume for example that voter 1 voted 1a & 4a with voter 2 voting 1b & 4b.... you see where i'm coming from....?

i personally think a lot of people are spending far too much attention on the whole 'charles material' - whether they're supporters or not. me, i'm on the fence. it's comfy here, and certainly far from crowded :)

[Bollinger]

Would rather go sit in the sun, on my hill and play with my dog.

Haven't you noticed

things have moved on.

Ace

Well of course things have moved on. What other alternative is there BUT to move on? The kind of questions people should be asking themselves are:

Have I learned anything useful from it?
Has it made me a better soul?
Have I managed to drink a little from the cup of wisdom?
Did it bring clarity to my view and thinking?
Has it made me a better or worse person?
Does it have any consequence on how I would treat information of the same kind in the future?
How will I react to the next character that turns up with "information" and no proof?

Simply to say, time to move on, is tantamount to saying: oh well, never mind, it was good while it lasted, can we have some more please. Even if it is proven beyond all doubt that the Charles material was fake and completely without substance, you should still have learned something from it by enquiring of yourself the above questions, otherwise, it truly was a complete waste of time.

Please, do enlighten us, with your response to your seven questions.

Ace



By implication, the questions were intended towards the faithful. If you have answers, I'd be delighted to hear them.

[Bollinger]

I don't see how you can fail to make your own decisions or act on your own discernment--there's only you (most of the time) in your own head. But after having vigorous debate served up to you, you are certainly armed with much more information and understanding than before. Even less educated or experienced minds will find themselves better able to resonate with one view or the other. That might be mistaken as 'letting others make your decision for you", but in truth, your agreement with one view over another is always just your choice. IMHO, even the least sophisticated of souls has the ability to detect truth from dare...

I see what you are saying but if logic was applied then there would be a strong possibility that we would all come to the same conclusions, such is not the case.

Logic would say dont follow some one like Hitler Millions did Millions died.

Any Psychiatrist would tell you that the human mind is incapable of telling truth from falsehood with out standing back and doing an audit on the verifiable facts.
People will often say, I believe this, it resonates with me. So how come someone with an opposite view will say exactly the same thing.

In other words Its like saying "If something resonates with me it is undeniably true" I will fight to the death to defend my belief, people do.

When you get into serious study of the mind it is an eye opener,
Eckhart toll says "Dont take your thoughts too seriously"
I would go along with that.

Chris

Logic now says dont follow Hitler. In the context of Nazi Germany it was totally logic to follow him. LOL

No, I’m afraid the definition of logic here is being distorted. Formal logic can be demonstrated, for example, by what is known as a syllogism which is a series of known propositions that lead to a previously unknown conclusion which must itself be true because it is founded on other truths. Here is an example with two known propositions which lead to a conclusion:

1. All men are mortal
2. Aristotle is a man
3. Aristotle is mortal.

Following or not following a particular leader, or party or political ideology is not something that can be associated with logic. For example you might say that you agree with what the speaker says therefore it is logical to follow and support that leader. However, agreeing with what someone says is not the same as saying they speak the truth. You might be agreeing with a skilfully delivered pack of lies.

When people say “something resonates with them”, it is no more than a verbose way of conveying that they agree with the speaker. That does not make true what is being spoken.

We are of course talking in particular about the Charles material here and it falls exactly into the same category as someone following a particular leader or a person with whom they happen to agree. The reasons for believing what is being uttered can only be based on emotion because there is simply nothing else. In other words, we have no known propositions upon which to base the conclusions. And to be frank, it really won't do to keep hiding behind the perfect veil of; "it is too dangerous to provide proof". You can use that excuse to say just about anything you like and people are obliged to believe you. I could make up a whole gamut of fantastic drivel, even better than the incoherent piece of fiction that Charles came up with and tell you that I am from the inside and because it's all so dangerous, I can't actually give you any evidence. I appeal to you: what is the point?

As an experiment, why don't we play that game? Someone could start a thread on simulating the Charles material with a single member acting as Charles and making up a nice insider story. We then wade in with our questions and let's see how easy it is to avoid answering them by simply saying; "you're not ready". Let’s see how easy it is to expound some meaningless parables and statements that sound really profound and mysterious; what a lot of fun that would be.

[Dennis Jonathan]

I am astonished at the amount of emotion this material has evoked.

Can we get real here for a moment please?

EVERYTHING, this site investigates is abnormal. Whether its free energy, UFO's, USO's, government cover ups, the existence of Reptilians, ET's (STS & STO), even controlling our own ego (the most alternative science of all imo).

Why the magnifying glass on Atticus? There are a lot more "out there" interviewees that Bill and Kerry have met with. The reason we don't grab our pitchforks and chase them is simple. They arent on the forums.

I really respect Wade Frazier for coming here, but even his threads lack substance. I know that he has taken the approach of community awareness, but I am talking actionable content.

Atticus has come here, engaged us, spent a great deal of time deveolping the information he hinted at during his interview, and the response is a little embarrassing.

I have an idea. Why dont we just stop all of the talking and crucify him already? Then we can all reflect how wrong we were afterwords.

Its that, or just sit tight and see how far the rabbit hole really goes.

Enough polls, accusations, paranoia, and fear mongering.

Lets just let the process happen. I promise you, no matter what happens, no one is going to trick you into becoming a satan worshipper.

[qbeac]

Hi everyone, the following new update by David Wilcock (Saturday, 15 January 2011) is a complete contradiction to the Charles Material in relation to positive ET intervention to neutralize the dark cabal (or elite).

Therefore, this is another good reason why the CM should be revised from its very foundation to discern if it is correct or incorrect.

Who is right or wrong, Charles or David?

Since they are saying mutually excluding things, both cannot be right at the same time.

This contradiction is also in alignment with the results of the poll so far, which clearly show that most people are very sceptical of the the CM and would like to see Bill and other experts debating publicly the validity of the CM.

David Wilcock update (Saturday, 15 January 2011)
Disclosure War at Critical Mass: Birds, Fish and Political Deaths
http://divinecosmos.com/index.php/start-here/davids-blog/909-disclosurecriticalmass



Brief excerpt:

… Brazil, Russia, India and China have all apparently been contacted by positive ETs who are finally intervening to stop these negative forces on Earth -- by physically destroying their classified, back-engineered military equipment.

My insiders have told me the damage to the classified military infrastructure has been vast and unrelenting. This arsenal would otherwise have been used to fake an alien invasion -- in the hopes of creating a worldwide dictatorship.

HAARP is being used to 'shield' the areas that are being zapped -- but in the process it is causing obvious, mass deaths of birds and fish worldwide. The war has now reached critical mass -- where it is starting to become obvious.

These same positive ETs have told the Indian government they intend to openly reveal themselves to humanity in December of next year. We are finally close enough to this event that 'Management' is now allowing the ETs to do some housecleaning… etc., etc.

[9eagle9]

The arrogance of quoting one's self. But my moot point, and big blaring event seemed to have unraveled itself into from hidden in plain sight to unhidden in plain sight the last two days.



There was no 'the point is moot' option. As I read the CM I saw where it can be used for a) greater good or of course b) greater 'not good.. ;)

Then there arrived a point as this progressed where this big blaring event happened.One that if it held water would make the grade being paved here. But if didn't hold water....well it wouldn't either way. A hand, as it were was overplayed. Which I thought would bring the whole matter to a grinding halt. As I reflected on that I had that feeling of 'this is the way it should be.' Sorta like the war is over but ...the battle will wage on I'm sure. As it must.

Now the hand played can be taken back or reshuffled but as it stands now...stalemate. May have been for very good reason. Balance which is neutral is a lot less subtle these days, and I trust it knows what its doing. IN the wonderful way of the universe what may first appear to be a dead end road, opens up into a wider avenue.

[Flash]

I am astonished at the amount of emotion this material has evoked.

Can we get real here for a moment please?

EVERYTHING, this site investigates is abnormal. Whether its free energy, UFO's, USO's, government cover ups, the existence of Reptilians, ET's (STS & STO), even controlling our own ego (the most alternative science of all imo).

Why the magnifying glass on Atticus? There are a lot more "out there" interviewees that Bill and Kerry have met with. The reason we don't grab our pitchforks and chase them is simple. They arent on the forums.

I really respect Wade Frazier for coming here, but even his threads lack substance. I know that he has taken the approach of community awareness, but I am talking actionable content.

Atticus has come here, engaged us, spent a great deal of time deveolping the information he hinted at during his interview, and the response is a little embarrassing.

I have an idea. Why dont we just stop all of the talking and crucify him already? Then we can all reflect how wrong we were afterwords.

Its that, or just sit tight and see how far the rabbit hole really goes.

Enough polls, accusations, paranoia, and fear mongering.

Lets just let the process happen. I promise you, no matter what happens, no one is going to trick you into becoming a satan worshipper.

I am sorry folks, but I cannot resist - which material? I have not seen any, barely. So yes, lets investigate elsewhere.

[qbeac]

Hi Bill and everyone else,

Please, anybody who can talk to Bill Ryan and Kerry Cassidy (by PM, e-mail, or personally), I’d appreciate if you would let them both know about the following information, because it is potentially important.

I have added an important update (March-9-2011) in Post #1 of this thread about the following matter:

The following are two different hypothesis that are running around from anonymous sources and that have to do with the situation in the Avalon forum roughly between January and February of 2011. I have not written them but have permission to post them. I don’t know if they could be true or false in this case (the Avalon forum). They are NOT “accusations” but simple “hypothesis” that could turn out to be true or false, but that some people have thought about using rational thinking and empirical observations.

In case these two hypothesis would turn out to be true, or even just a part of any of them would, it could have negative consequences for the Avalon forum, for instance: a credibility erosion, or the necessity to revise the CM from its foundations (Ex: is the CM info or disinfo?), etc.

In case they turn out to be false or incorrect, that would be great.

But in any case, it is good to beware about them and to prevent any negative repercussions they may pose before it happens.

The two hypothesis can be read at link:

Post #28068, pag. 114. Two hypothesis about the risks of the infiltration of forums and manipulation of info and people
http://camelotforum.com/index.php?option=com_kunena&func=view&catid=37&id=20465&limit=10&limitstart=1130&Itemid=147#28068

Edit: The previous link changed, the current one is this one:

Post #28068, pag. 117. Two hypothesis about the risks of the infiltration of forums and manipulation of info and people
http://camelotforum.com/index.php?option=com_kunena&func=view&catid=37&id=20465&limit=10&limitstart=1160&Itemid=164#28068

[RAKMEiSTER]

poll is sick. intent is devious/planned. outcome is not listed in poll.
and as for termology is it or isnt itcorrect or incorrect. is just picking 2 sides of the polarity in extreme and isnt really all is it.

seen this game/play before and ...

the end

[qbeac]

poll is sick. intent is devious/planned. outcome is not listed in poll.
and as for termology is it or isnt itcorrect or incorrect. is just picking 2 sides of the polarity in extreme and isnt really all is it.

seen this game/play before and ...

the end
RAKMEiSTER, by the things you say in your post #107 I have the impression you have not read Post #1 of the poll, where I explained the limitations of the poll software system of this forum, which is a vBulletin system (maximum number of questions, maximum number of characters per sentence, etc., etc.),

The vBulletin forum system is a good system but it is not perfect, it has many software limitations, especially when it comes to polls.

In Post #1 I also explained the reason why I designed the poll as it is.

So, please, tell us:



1) Have you read Post #1 with the instructions of the poll?

2) Have you read DevilPigeon's post #97 (pag. 5 of this thread), where he made a comment similar to yours about the poll? And also my reply to his comments in Post #98, here:

http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?14683-Is-Charles-Material-correct-or-incorrect-Could-that-affect-credibility-Avalon-forum&p=156735&viewfull=1#post156735

In any case, this poll is just gathering data. If you would like to gather different data with different questions, or if you think this poll could be improved, you (or anybody) can start your own poll and design it however you prefer.

[FearNot]

..............

[qbeac]

Qbeac

I have been meaning to let you now for weeks now how much I appreciate your ability to analyze and provide your brand of critical analysis to the Charles material. Thank you for your time and effort and your excellent discernment abilities.
Thanks a lot, FearNot, right now, with the information we have so far, if I had to choose between the CM and the following two videos about Benjamin Fulford’s POV, I would choose the two Benjamin’s videos.

I maybe wrong, I don’t know, but right now Benjamin’s POV makes more sense to me than the CM.

In these two videos Benjamin says that the earthquake-tsunami of Japan (11-3-11) was caused by several atomic bombs placed in the bottom of the ocean by the dark cabal.

Benjamin also says that right now there is an international coalition of very high level people (honest people) who are trying to neutralize the corrupt elite (or dark cabal), and they may be very close to do it.



Benjamín Fulford blog. 03/19/2011
Here are links to two new U-tube videos of mine:　昨日収録した映像です
http://benjaminfulford.typepad.com/benjaminfulford/

緊急特番・東日本関東大震災の真相は！？①
(en inglés)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=crP9PqlPnD0

緊急特番・東日本関東大震災の真相は！？②
(en inglés)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9FuJrQK6TJ4

A more detailed explanation is in this interview:

Benjamín Fulford interviewed by Kerry Cassidy. March 16, 2011
http://projectcamelotproductions.com/whistelblower-radio-hp.html
Dr. John Waterman & Benjamin Fulford: update on Japan and earth changes
http://www.americanfreedomradio.com/archive/Project-Camelot-32k-031611.mp3

And the reasons why some people think the earthquake attack on Japan was done, is because of the following reasons:

http://stevebeckow.com/accountability/weather-warfare/golden-wolf-japanese-quake-manmade/



(1) To deflect attention from American cabalistic financial manipulations.

(2) To punish Japan for not permitting the cabal’s attempts to take over the Japanese monetary system.

(3) To end growing Japanese support for 9/11 truth.

(4) To capsize Japanese inroads into water cars, magnetic generators, magnetic engines, etc.

[TimelessDimensions]

There is as much historical and scientific evidence for the Charles Material as there is for the Easter Bunny or The Bible.

[Flash]

This is getting nuts
in my mind he can do whatever he wants

I would just add, as long as he doen't bug down the whole forum - I was seeing him in every single thread! even if not related.


From Bollinger«;

Have I learned anything useful from it? No not even useless intellectual fun
Has it made me a better soul? no
Have I managed to drink a little from the cup of wisdom? No
Did it bring clarity to my view and thinking? no on the contrary it temporarily muddled it
Has it made me a better or worse person? neither
Does it have any consequence on how I would treat information of the same kind in the future? yes my push away button would be faster
How will I react to the next character that turns up with "information" and no proof? certainly not read the threads, not worth the time

[schnurfel]

I would personally recommend not to put so much belief in Benjamin’s Information – as he seems to be living in his very own reality in my view (please consider just for example the things he said about the USD now being backed by gold, which was total baloney – there´s just not enough gold even if you only take into account the non-US Dollars facilitated by foreign central banks). The world is going to hell in a hand basket and he is busy doing happy clapping about virtual unproveable developments that are supposed to help. He really gets a lot of things right about economy for sure – but I think he sometimes fails “epic” on the greater picture.

I think the Tsunami was caused by this indisputable “super moon” and other planet constellations, sun activity etc. and the resulting quake – whether “they” used HAARP or bombs to enforce or steer is not really important at this point: they knew well in advance and made preparations (storing ridiculously large amounts of spent mox fuel rods atop an outdated insecure reactor sitting on a fault line and ready to go any time + taking no effective actions whatsoever during the first weeks) It is all part of their way to trash the whole earth – they have had the means to deal with the mess decades ago, they are just waiting for us to die off so they may start over again in the aftermath.
The only thing that stands against them PTB at this point is the fact, that more and more of their actions are becoming public by the day, so only thing to rely on is taking personal action and exposing the global elite for what they are. If you start to hope for someone inside to assist – you are going to fail big-time. If there are black suits with white hats, it is of no importance either – I think these are just representing another promise we are supposed to chase until doomsday.

Charlesing around won´t help us either – regardless of how many “love and light fascists” are running mindlessly after him..

In my view it was a foreseen natural event that came in quite handy for “them”.


Best regards, Schnurfel


[I still wonder wether the Avalon Thought Police has dropped dead by the hammer with the exodus of Celine & Richard...]

[qbeac]

I would personally recommend not to put so much belief in Benjamin’s Information – as he seems to be living in his very own reality in my view (please consider just for example the things he said about the USD now being backed by gold, which was total baloney – there´s just not enough gold even if you only take into account the non-US Dollars facilitated by foreign central banks). ...
well, schnurfel, in the following 5 posts (89 to 93) I have included plenty of scientific information which, in my opinion, conclusively proves that the elite already has technology capable of provoking artificial earthquakes and tsunamis. Some of that technology dates back to WWII at least.

The point is that this type of technology definitely exists, it is real and it works, and if you take into consideration that right now it is in the hands of a very corrupt mafia group (the elite), I believe it is quite reasonable to think that they will want to use it, either now, in the past or in the future.

Posts 89, 90, 91, 92 y 93, pag. 6 y 7.
Según Benjamín Fulford, el terremoto-tsunami de Japón ha sido provocado artificialmente con bombas atómicas por la parte corrupta del gobierno en la sombra
http://www.burbuja.info/inmobiliaria/politica/152378-mision-anglosajona-que-planea-el-gobierno-en-la-sombra-para-el-2012-y-despues-6.html#post4087978

Note: The text of the previous link is in Spanish, but most of the links are in English.

[Sierra]

<SNIP>

Therefore, so far the poll shows that many people are very sceptical of the CM, but they are not saying it out loud, and that’s a very significant finding of the poll so far. What is causing that contradiction, could it be fear of speaking out, or shyness, or something else? So, let’s see how the poll results evolve in time.

Something else: Insufficient data. :ranger:

[Mad Hatter]

Formal logic can be demonstrated, for example, by what is known as a syllogism which is a series of known propositions that lead to a previously unknown conclusion which must itself be true because it is founded on other truths. Here is an example with two known propositions which lead to a conclusion:

1 x 0 = 0
5 x 0 = 0

1 = 5 QED


just sayin....:cool:

[Strat]

I'd like to address the two questions that title this thread if that's alright.

"Is Charles' information correct or incorrect?"

I don't know. I can only come up with probabilities based on weak arguments. That being said, I refrain from judging it correct or incorrect. He is a man, and his information is what it is. Simple as that. My opinion has been the same from day one.

"Could Charles' information affect the credibility of Avalon?"

I'm going to be frank; maybe, I don't care. We are not one mass unit. We are all individuals congregating together, though opinions aren't necessarily the same despite face value appearance (does that make sense). I have to experience a lot of BS in the real world, I couldn't care less what someone thinks of me because I subscribe to the Avalon forum. There are some really smart people here and I gravitate to them. There is also a lot of information besides the Charles info. I'm somewhat of a builder in my spare time, I never would have known about the Bedini motor if it wasn't for this forum. It's an incredible idea and I'm going to build one. Thanks Avalon!

The fact that I'm on this forum doesn't mean I believe in what the masses of Avalon believe. I am a man with my own opinions. If someone is to suggest my credibility is compromised because of my Avalon account, they are literally short sighted. That would reveal how quick they are to jump to conclusions, and in affect, reveal their credibility.

As Ice Cube would say, "You better check yo self before you wreck ya self."

[schnurfel]

well, schnurfel, in the following 5 posts (89 to 93) I have included plenty of scientific information which, in my opinion, conclusively proves that the elite already has technology capable of provoking artificial earthquakes and tsunamis. Some of that technology dates back to WWII at least.

The point is that this type of technology definitely exists, it is real and it works, and if you take into consideration that right now it is in the hands of a very corrupt mafia group (the elite), I believe it is quite reasonable to think that they will want to use it, either now, in the past or in the future.
...


I fully agree with you, they have the ability to artificially cause earthquakes - as far as I knew they have had it since the mid 80s (I´m right now reading the Posts you recommend). And of course they would use it, there is no doubt in my mind about that.
There has even been a documentary with Brooks Agnew on TV (I think it was done by National Geographic), where he used a functional scale model of HAARP to demonstrate the capabilities. In addition, one can easily do some "Pysics homework" to verify the basic theory behind this technology and find out, that the theoretical background has been there since the late 19th century (to get mathematical: one would have to look at Maxwells original equations, not at Heavisides altered version of them, where significant parts are set to zero which makes them sort of incomplete; I will post more on that later on) .

If someone could present recordings of the typical HAARP signature present in the area shortly before the quake, I would be totally convinced that it was an artificialy triggered quake. Since there are quite some natural circumstances as well, there might not have been the need to artificially create a quake. Hopefully we will find out someday.


[sorry for getting off topic, maybe we should discuss this elswhere]

[norman]

I think it's self evident that Charles doesn't know the whole story, or even a half of it.

It's my current guess that he's being filled in, right now, on stuff he didn't have a clue about.