The dangers of censorship

[Second Son]

So… I see from another post here, that censorship is alive and well at Avalon. Seems someone found some images shocking.

I am not sure what images you are referring to, but I do know that censorship in any form is a very dangerous thing to undertake. If a forum dedicated to the pursuit of truth in its many manifestations bans images which SOME folks deem to be offensive, what about the rest of us? Whose opinions count for more? Does not a potential viewer have the prerogative to NOT look? To put it another way: Whereas someone who deems an image offensive can choose NOT to look, what about the rights of those who take no offense? When something is officially banned, then EVERYONE else who does not take offense has lost the right to view it. You can bet which scenario I advocate.

How far off are those who would engage in censorship from the governmental authorities responsible for locking up holocaust revisionists for thought crimes? It is funny really, how every forum, platform, government, no matter how well-meaning at its outset, is still led down the same rabbit holes that we as a society inevitable descend.

The “Lord of the Flies” mentality is still alive and well in the “truth” movement.

The number 1 complaint I hear from people who travel or live abroad is that we here in the USA are so insulated from the real, profane, yet galvanizing images of wars. Wars which we by our silence condone and finance. It takes a foreign news service like Al Jazeera to air the real images of the carnage which seems to be our only financially viable export.

Shame on anyone who would deign to tell me what I can or can not look at. I remember a very controversial piece of art which garnered world-wide attention some time ago. It was a crucifix in a large jar full of piss. Shocking to some, revolting, profane, incite-full, BUT thought provoking, daring, and pertinent. Just the kind of image to foster dialog, to make people question their beliefs… even if only their beliefs about censorship.

It will be interesting to see how quickly the PTB... in this case the Mods, delete this post.

Peace out. ;)

[Beth]

Second son, they were pictures of people's heads blown off. I really didn't like them either. I asked to have them removed, but said they could place a link with a disclaimer. That's hardly censorship.

[Ahkenaten]

Censorship is one thing, a community with its own standards is another altogether. High standards speak to the integrity of all the people involved as the information shared reveals the highest parts of the self one wishes to share with another for the purpose of elevating others. If someone wishes to look at certain images, albeit it pornography or war - there are plenty of places on the web one can go to do that. PA was not established for that purpose, rather for the purpose of enlightening and lifting each other up. Are you saying that if a spiritual community does not permit certain things in its midst it is engaging in censorship? Or if another group decides for whatever reason, it does not wish to put its energy into certain things, it is not "open." Often, sadly, the discussion about openness and freedom of speech has been turned on its head and perversely twisted and used to degrade the people's mind. That is why what passes for public discourse today is nothing more than an open cesspool peppered with profanity.

[ThePythonicCow]

Censorship is one thing, a community with its own standards is another altogether.

Thank-you, Ahkenaten. I was composing such a response in my mind myself. But you have said it better than I could have.

[Second Son]

Sounds like a lot of bluster, Ahkenaten.

I would rather live in an open cesspool, than a private elitist spa.

The spiritual path I am on has few tenets, but one is that no one... NO ONE is left out.

The truth can be ugly, but if it is blocked at a "truth" site what next.

Am I from another planet here? Am I the only one who sees what this could "evolve" into?

Anyway, thanks for proving my "Lord of the Flies" analogy to be spot on.

Whenever we choose whos message is the offially sanctioned one, we are right on the heels of a government agency.

Any "bending" or altering of the messages which would otherwise flow freely, and show an objective perspective of "truth" is nothing more than propaganda. Period.

[Beth]

Ok, well I'm glad you got your answer then.

[Ahkenaten]

OK then Second Son you are free to pursue your broad interests on the world wide web which provides many avenues for exploration in detail of the subjects of interest to you. If you are truly as open as you say then why not plug your brain directly into the web...............that should provide a torrent of unedited, completely open information for you to run directly through your brain. Then after your finish processing and sorting all that, let's see how enthusiastic you are about the kind of radical unfiltered openness you seem to be promoting.

[Second Son]

Every time people gather, it is a microcosm of the larger picture. Of government, the PTB, etc. That's what I am saying. We are all susceptible to feeling that our truths are the only ones worth listening to. Eventually a power structure manifests, and that old addage about absolute power soon becomes true.

Thanks for your quick responce Beth. I have to run, but I will be a curmudgeon when I get back... promise.

[Second Son]

I do just that Ahk. It's precisely that fact that has led me to where I am now. I have a position that NOTHING is anathema. We are taught to self-censor so as to be more politically correct. But the truth knows no politic.

[Fredkc]

Sorry.

I would love to rise to the bait, and formulate a proper response to such high minded thinking. It was really tempting, so I won't.

After several complainsts about disturbing pictures, from the membership, we removed them. I would not presume to tell you anything... in fact, you've done a pretty good job of telling the membership (a key word) what you believe we, the mods are about. To this I will rise.

We do have a chosen membership. We also do attempt to serve a purpose here; most of which is not served by posting pictures of bullet-ridden, burnt, and beaten bodies. If they are germain to a discussion, it'd be preferable if such things we kept to links, rather than the graphics, themselves.

Yes! We do absolutely censor here. In fact we have 15 censors here. They in turn answer to peer discussion about those decisions. I can also report that the decision to remove those images went thru said process without a single dissention. If you are unhappy with our decisions, I would suggest you send a private message to either Richard, (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/member.php?3-Richard) our senior Admin, or Bill Ryan, (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/member.php?6) the owner. We all serve here at their leisure.

Membership:
This is a private forum. It was stated to be such when you joined. As such, we reserve the right to guide, edit, and delete content that is felt to be off our patch, or presented in a way we feel is not in keeping with the site's best interest.

I don't think any of the mods would apologize for this, as it's part of what we are told to do. If we ourselves thought it was out of hand, we'd remove the mod causing the problem, or simply quit ourselves.

We don't have to be here, we want to. Same as you, I hope.
Fred
PS: Why would we delete this?

[Ahkenaten]

It is not true that wherever people gather they are a "microcosm of the larger picture" etc. That is nonsense..............especially in these times where the common people often manifest more common sense, decency, moral strength and fortitude, and more intelligence than their leaders. Opening one's mind to anything and everything is folly unless you have the power of intellect and discernment and the moral integrity to sort it all out - and given the torrent of information available today, that would be a formidable intellect and moral stature indeed! In fact the kind of radical openness you seem to propose is a prescription for insanity. You are talking nonsense Second Son, in short - you are in over your head. You can be as much as a curmudgeon as you like - but character always inevitably manifests itself: know them by their words and deeds.

[Darla Ken Pearce]

Sweetie, no one will delete your comments and views. If a lady is offended and asks for something offensive to be removed, please understand that it must be removed! The whole reason behind all the wars and bloodshed is that the masculine ways took over and completely subvert the feminine. In my opinion, it might be time to have things go the other way, but thankfully, higher beings are in charge of our Earth and the ways. Earth is ascending into the Fifth Dimension and a perfect balance, she is gaining. There are to be no favorites this time around and thank goodness ~ duality is at an end. Please show, always, a certain respect for those who have given birth to you even a small symbolic gesture would be greatly appreciated.

It's a small request and if a woman asks (unless it's Hillary Clinton, of course) her wishes should be respected and given for the betterment of us all. It's not the same thing as censorship but I could be wrong as I am very, very, very prejudiced for the gentler, kinder ways of life and sensitivities ; ) xoxox

[arctourist]

i stand against censorship as well...i understand the moderators need to justify it-and they will every time...
they'll say,oh,it's not censorship,some poor person was offended! oh dear!
as usual there's too many moderators with not enough to do....they take their jobs awfully seriously!

[Beth]

i stand against censorship as well...i understand the moderators need to justify it-and they will every time...
they'll say,oh,it's not censorship,some poor person was offended! oh dear!
as usual there's too many moderators with not enough to do....they take their jobs awfully seriously!

And with that statement, you'd be totally INCORRECT.

[jjl]

Thank you for your attention and uderstanding Beth. You are overworked and still got right on it.

[3optic]

i stand against censorship as well...i understand the moderators need to justify it-and they will every time...
they'll say,oh,it's not censorship,some poor person was offended! oh dear!
as usual there's too many moderators with not enough to do....they take their jobs awfully seriously!

And with that statement, you'd be totally INCORRECT.

Yeah.. what forum are you talking about?

[jorr lundstrom]

i stand against censorship as well...i understand the moderators need to justify it-and they will every time...
they'll say,oh,it's not censorship,some poor person was offended! oh dear!
as usual there's too many moderators with not enough to do....they take their jobs awfully seriously!

Hallo arctourist, are you out playing tonight again. I think the moderators do an xlnt job, but maybye they should be a little harder sometimes.

Wot do you think. You never play alone, always bring a playmate. LOL

[arctourist]

hey it's possible i'm wrong-it happens occasionally
but i guess it all depends,again,on your definitions...
what do you take the word 'moderate' to mean? ' to moderate'-that means you're doing what?
sorry if some of you are offended - i was just responding to this thread... but how many moderators does it take to....delete a picture...close a thread...or do whatever else they do....you tell me,when y'get a minute....haha

[jorr lundstrom]

i stand against censorship as well...i understand the moderators need to justify it-and they will every time...
they'll say,oh,it's not censorship,some poor person was offended! oh dear!
as usual there's too many moderators with not enough to do....they take their jobs awfully seriously!

And with that statement, you'd be totally INCORRECT.

Yeah.. what forum are you talking about?

I s pp se ve iz toking baut tis frum. donnt jo?

[Beth]

We average 1500 posts a day, registrations, emails, PMs, and technical issues to deal with daily. That's what we do. Just last month I was averaging about 40+ hours "moderating" a week here.

[jorr lundstrom]

hey it's possible i'm wrong-it happens occasionally
but i guess it all depends,again,on your definitions...
what do you take the word 'moderate' to mean? ' to moderate'-that means you're doing what?
sorry if some of you are offended - i was just responding to this thread... but how many moderators does it take to....delete a picture...close a thread...or do whatever else they do....you tell me,when y'get a minute....haha

Itt tax wan modd tooo bannn onnne wott soo evrr.

[aikya]

So… I see from another post here, that censorship is alive and well at Avalon. Seems someone found some images shocking.

I am not sure what images you are referring to, but I do know that censorship in any form is a very dangerous thing to undertake. If a forum dedicated to the pursuit of truth in its many manifestations bans images which SOME folks deem to be offensive, what about the rest of us? Whose opinions count for more? Does not a potential viewer have the prerogative to NOT look? To put it another way: Whereas someone who deems an image offensive can choose NOT to look, what about the rights of those who take no offense? When something is officially banned, then EVERYONE else who does not take offense has lost the right to view it. You can bet which scenario I advocate.

How far off are those who would engage in censorship from the governmental authorities responsible for locking up holocaust revisionists for thought crimes? It is funny really, how every forum, platform, government, no matter how well-meaning at its outset, is still led down the same rabbit holes that we as a society inevitable descend.

The “Lord of the Flies” mentality is still alive and well in the “truth” movement.

The number 1 complaint I hear from people who travel or live abroad is that we here in the USA are so insulated from the real, profane, yet galvanizing images of wars. Wars which we by our silence condone and finance. It takes a foreign news service like Al Jazeera to air the real images of the carnage which seems to be our only financially viable export.

Shame on anyone who would deign to tell me what I can or can not look at. I remember a very controversial piece of art which garnered world-wide attention some time ago. It was a crucifix in a large jar full of piss. Shocking to some, revolting, profane, incite-full, BUT thought provoking, daring, and pertinent. Just the kind of image to foster dialog, to make people question their beliefs… even if only their beliefs about censorship.

It will be interesting to see how quickly the PTB... in this case the Mods, delete this post.

Peace out. ;)
I hate war, I hate violence. I'm converted. I have been in situations where I have had to witness images which made me feel truly ill, which impacted on my mind and my emotions for weeks and weeks afterwards. I had had to steel myself before looking at them. I don't need to see any more images to convince me of these horrors.....I am already totally, completely convinced. I find many of the images of war horrors deeply upsetting, and I hope that remains the case. I don't wish to become desensitised to such horrors.

Because I am alrealdy totally convinced, I avoid looking such upsetting images unless there is a reason why I need to do so. In many contexts there is a warning along the lines of 'graphic images' , before viewing. This is for a reason...so people can choose whether or not they want to expose themselves to upsetting and horrific images in that moment, whether or not they want to see something which might impact strongly on their psyche.

I was not one of those who complained about the images in question, but I did see some comments about them, and chose to avoid that thread totally. Had I visited the thread without knowing the content, it might have been a shock to suddenly be confronted with such horror, and it just may have been a moment when it was not good for me to experience that, again.

For these reasons I agree with the removal of the images from the thread and I think the solution of adding a link and a warning is appropriate. This allows choice and taking responsibility for oneself. I choose to retain a choice about when and whether I subject myself to horrific imagery which impacts strongly on my psyche, because it just hurts me too much to see it.

[arctourist]

well! see,maybe i was wrong-maybe you do more than i thought...so you monitor 'personal' messages-i bet that's fun huh?

[Beth]

well! see,maybe i was wrong-maybe you do more than i thought...so you monitor 'personal' messages-i bet that's fun huh?

I meant the PMs that members send to me asking for assistance. There are plenty of them.

[jorr lundstrom]

well! see,maybe i was wrong-maybe you do more than i thought...so you monitor 'personal' messages-i bet that's fun huh?

Ho masch d jo bet?

[Icecold]

Arctourist :horn: Beth

Oh the joys of communication.

[Carmody]

I'll just toss in that I was fired from my first actual job for being young and not quite understanding of the ways of the world... that make it work. I was in a position where I could have gotten someone killed. It was a construction job on a highway. I was directing the integration of road traffic with large construction vehicles.

Thankfully ....they fired me on my first day.

It took me years to figure that out.

The thing that still embarrasses me ....is the length of time it took to sink in, to truly get by my emotions on the subject. :)

[arctourist]

sorry...if you didn't love the job,then that'd be a drag,,,,no offense intended-but just so you realise it does offend some of us to see people get banned,and threads get closed sometimes-i know it's nothing 'personal'-i'm just sayin'...rarely is anyone offended from a deliberate cause..
some people seem to be nothing but fault-finders...sometimes it's hard to achieve a balance of the negative-and-positive.....well please excuse me,it's astrologically one of 'those' days-and i'm really glad for the 'privelege' of being here,i have to believe there's other people just like me,and i would ask you all to give them a little slack,maybe they feel hurt and the slightest kindness might make a huge difference to them....as for me,you couldn't offend me if you tried
war is stupid...pictures of war are stupid...but denial is really not helping the cause

[Second Son]

Ahk... you should work for the government (if you don't already). "RADICAL OPENESS". Are you serious???

Darla, I appreciate your kindly worded post, but do not however, appreciate it's contents. If a woman objects to certain graphics, she has the right NOT to look at them. THAT WAY her "rights" don't impinge on mine.

Speaking of rights... EVERYONE has the god-given, inalienable right to be OFFENDED. I ONLY read/watch/listen to things which push the boundaries of convention... that's precicely HOW I FOUND THIS FORUM.

I think we all should remember that not long ago the David Ikes, Jordan Maxwells, and Micael Tsarions of the world would have been censored too. back then it would have been an iron maiden or a burning at the stake.

All the justification in the world WILL NOT make anyone who choses what is "appropriate" and what is not, right.

Good to hear your input, Fred. I hope "your path" broadens as it continues onward, rather than narrows.

[ThePythonicCow]

this thread needs a time-out - I am closing it for one hour

[ThePythonicCow]

We've decided to leave this thread closed permanently. It was not a healthy thread.