Tension in the air, good and not good.

[linz2d]

Well some may find this strange but when I look a the Worm tongue thread in the General Discussion area I think it is good that the mods are getting things off their chests but I also see the negative side of it, as it a very one sided point of view.

I do not know, if there was more openness in our differences and our arguments where brought forward and if we called a spade a spade then perhaps it would not have blown up to this state.

From the spiritual side of things it is a good lesson for learning. For we in this community are no different than any country which has a hidden side to it. For the ones involved in the arguments it is an opportunity to learn. From the observers point of view it is an opportunity to learn. In this Avalon community if we cannot change it for the better then how do we expect to change the world for the better?


:tsk:

[buckminster fuller]

Well some may find this strange but when I look a the Worm tongue thread in the General Discussion area I think it is good that the mods are getting things off their chests but I also see the negative side of it, as it a very one sided point of view.

I do not know, if there was more openness in our differences and our arguments where brought forward and if we called a spade a spade then perhaps it would not have blown up to this state.

From the spiritual side of things it is a good lesson for learning. For we in this community are no different than any country which has a hidden side to it. For the ones involved in the arguments it is an opportunity to learn. From the observers point of view it is an opportunity to learn. In this Avalon community if we cannot change it for the better then how do we expect to change the world for the better?


:tsk:

agreed, yet why start another thread on such a trivial matter..?

[king anthony]

Limits should not govern potential of direction; as the 'lesson' of learning can lead to great things.

[linz2d]

No, it was not my intention to start another worm tongue but rather one on tension and anger, I believe this is also what the spirituality section is here for so that we may discuss such things. To overcome ones anger and anger towards others is very important.

[firstlook]

For me its about embracing peoples dark side. There is a reason for every choice. If you take the time and patience to work out why people take certain actions, there is no need to condemn it. Cause and effect can be played out two ways IMO.

You understand the cause and proceed to treat it without it actually being the subject of reflection. Or. You let that cause put fear in you, and you try to reject its energy.

I'm coming to the realization that you cannot reject ANY energy, whether positive or negative. You can only make it into something of your understanding. This then balances out the confusion and uncomfortable concerns. Thus eliminating the confrontation.

Although it takes focus. Its hard to remember this when you are putting out alot of energy yourself.

:)

[buckminster fuller]

For me its about embracing peoples dark side. There is a reason for every choice. If you take the time and patience to work out why people take certain actions, there is no need to condemn it. Cause and effect can be played out two ways IMO.

You understand the cause and proceed to treat it without it actually being the subject of reflection. Or. You let that cause put fear in you, and you try to reject its energy.

I'm coming to the realization that you cannot reject ANY energy, whether positive or negative. You can only make it into something of your understanding. This then balances out the confusion and uncomfortable concerns. Thus eliminating the confrontation.

Although it takes focus. Its hard to remember this when you are putting out alot of energy yourself.

:)

Do not judge people. (detachment)
Assess intents. (care)

[firstlook]

Do not judge people. (detachment)
Assess intents. (care)

Indeed.

I would even take it a step further and turn intent into reasoning. Intent implies future outlook of the individual. Its hard enough for that person to work out his own intent within the moment, that I feel its even more sidetracking for an outside party to assume that ever changing intent.

I find that most people dont know there true intent while debating. The act of debating is more akin to understanding ourselves through another's reflections. Even when we think we are 100% about something, we always can add infinite context and possibilities to that philosophy.

It makes the idea of intent only a temporary understanding at that particular moment. Perhaps that is where confrontation stems from. One party claiming Truth that is infallible and the other becoming frustrated a that debate.

Maybe, dont quote me on it. :)

[buckminster fuller]

Ok, no quote..:)

You're right about the subjectivity of our perception of other people's intents. It is an ever flowing process, yet, patterns emerge, colors, the rethoric used, body language. Truly there is no actual way to 'assess' it. Wrote it too fast. Thanks for pointing.

Peace

[firstlook]

Ok, no quote..:)

You're right about the subjectivity of our perception of other people's intents. It is an ever flowing process, yet, patterns emerge, colors, the rethoric used, body language. Truly there is no actual way to 'assess' it. Wrote it too fast. Thanks for pointing.

Peace

Your are right though. Assessing patterns is totally natural. I guess maybe I should try and word it differently.

All in all it seems that even the act of understanding is never complete. We need to take brakes when we get tired and have to reboot all of our information.

The art of communication is such an over looked discipline. I think we assume sometimes it should come naturally all the time. That we should be able to interact at every moment.

Perhaps this is not the case.

[buckminster fuller]

We have to transcend our inability to fully comprehend things. We are just not fitted to this task. Truth is.. truth is always a personal view of things, and when it comes to try to grasp other's views, it can only be done averaging the incoming data. In a world where consciousness would matter, rethoric and semantics would be part of everyone's education.

[linz2d]

Perhaps we should not judge but try to understand each other and this understanding will change over time but could there be the problem that through understanding we begin to judge? And the point should be raised that we are always comparing our point of views with others, and when we see that they are not compatible do we not judge?

[firstlook]

Good questions linz2d.

The issue of compatibleness I think ties back into assessing another's intent. Since that intent is always subject to change, I think that relieves some of the concern.

Buckminster brought up the important topic of semantics too. The word itself, Judge, can come with many attachments from its user that differ from outside perceptions.

Atleast its refreshing to know that we sometimes are not compatible with a person one day, but the next we find a pattern to share.

Going with this flow helps ease the strain. :)

[buckminster fuller]

Perhaps we should not judge but try to understand each other and this understanding will change over time but could there be the problem that through understanding we begin to judge? And the point should be raised that we are always comparing our point of views with others, and when we see that they are not compatible do we not judge?

I think it's important to make the distinction between judgement (that is applied to individuals) and personal analysis of things (that relates to everything else). Boris Vian, a french author, poet, singer of the post 2d world war period, pointed out that it is impossible to judge people, based on the fact that in order to do so, one should be aware of every detail that goes into the history of the person one wants to judge. What his life has been, what he ate in the morning, how well he slept, what temperature is in the room... Unless one knows all of it, there is no way to "fairly" judge someone. (not talking about court judgements, where facts are looked at)

[linz2d]

So perhaps using a word like "differences" would be more appropriate. It is our differences that set us apart. And understanding those difference may bring us closer together.... Do I want to get closer though? :boink:

[buckminster fuller]

So perhaps using a word like "differences" would be more appropriate. It is our differences that set us apart. And understanding those difference may bring us closer together.... Do I want to get closer though? :boink:

Guess you wouldn't be here otherwise... Maybe we don't need to understand the differences, simply to accept them.

[firstlook]

The act of comparing a persons life to yours, alone shows the intense process. One could get lost in all the disagreements about how to do this and how to do that.

Finding a certain focal point to focus on is what I love about the topic of philosophy. I think spiritual discipline mirrors the same process. Perhaps spirituality has been the issue of intense debate in the world because more then any other practice/structure, it totally focuses the subconscious and the subjective as the core of being. This creates the common understanding throughout most spiritual teachings that responsibilities of understanding ALWAYS comes from yourself. That Good and Evil look the same.

I have never found spirituality easy. Thats what makes it so intriguing. It never implies any promise of an answer.

:)

[BrianEn]

That thread as started so an individual could heal. It is a person's right to heal. We should be allowed to do as such if we are going to make any difference in each others' lives. The more healed we become the stronger we get so that the ties that bind us become stronger than that which would tear us apart.

[firstlook]

That thread as started so an individual could heal. It is a person's right to heal. We should be allowed to do as such if we are going to make any difference in each others' lives. The more healed we become the stronger we get so that the ties that bind us become stronger than that which would tear us apart.

I think the concern is how that healing effects others.

Indeed everyone has the sovereign right to replenish their own energy. Does this healing require validation though? Its an interesting question to ponder.

:)

[write4change]

firstlook,

I come to look forward to encountering you and the perceptive and incisive way you think that gets my reflections deeper.

Thank you.

[linz2d]

So perhaps using a word like "differences" would be more appropriate. It is our differences that set us apart. And understanding those difference may bring us closer together.... Do I want to get closer though? :boink:

Guess you wouldn't be here otherwise... Maybe we don't need to understand the differences, simply to accept them.

Accept the differences, the individual or both? Because it is the difference in opinion, beliefs and ideas that separates, this can cause tension between two people. Maybe that is all we have to do, is accept that they are different than we are. I do not have to agree with a person but I can accept their views. Should we not also accept the possibility that we may be wrong? Perhaps we are to defensive in our own beliefs.

firstlook I do not think spirituality is meant to be easy. :nod:

BrianEn I do not know if it heals, as it is good to get things of your chest but as firstlook does point out that is does effect others, it has already changed people views in some way or another. Is it for the good or the bad... who really knows, as it is what the individual takes from the experience that matters,

[BrianEn]

In order for me to heal I had to upset my whole family. That wasn't an easy choice on my part. At the time I was left with few choices. Not that I was Mr. Good Guy in the deal, but I had to make a choice. I made the ones that I needed to make.

[sygh]

For me its about embracing peoples dark side. There is a reason for every choice. If you take the time and patience to work out why people take certain actions, there is no need to condemn it. Cause and effect can be played out two ways IMO.

You understand the cause and proceed to treat it without it actually being the subject of reflection. Or. You let that cause put fear in you, and you try to reject its energy.

I'm coming to the realization that you cannot reject ANY energy, whether positive or negative. You can only make it into something of your understanding. This then balances out the confusion and uncomfortable concerns. Thus eliminating the confrontation.

Although it takes focus. Its hard to remember this when you are putting out alot of energy yourself.

:)

Do not judge people. (detachment)
Assess intents. (care)

Intent; yes. We all make mistakes, we all get a piano dropped on our heads. I dropped on on myself lastnight. No, wait, I dropped one on someone else but it's me who should take the blow. I misread totally.

As tense as it is, getting the small amount of information we have gotten so far, some confirming, some new, not only from Charles but also looking back at Bob Dean and others, and then comparing the information needs time to assimilate. Just thinking today about the flora & fauna... all living creatures on the earth. Did everythng on earth spring up from the orgone? Was it sprinkled on this planet like salt? Is orgone synonomous with the spirit? Is everything here, on earth, that lives a beautiful accident? And when all is said and done, isn't it all about life being lived in the materal world, the spirit in the flesh? Are we the creators in the flesh? The spirit entering into the material? This experiment, was it ever supposed to happen, or was this forbidden too?

[firstlook]

In order for me to heal I had to upset my whole family. That wasn't an easy choice on my part. At the time I was left with few choices. Not that I was Mr. Good Guy in the deal, but I had to make a choice. I made the ones that I needed to make.

Indeed.

How much of a energy wave is being created in the other thread should also be noted. Are the parties making the choices that need to be made? I hope so, because thats when the tensions die.

:)

[firstlook]

firstlook I do not think spirituality is meant to be easy. :nod:


I'll be honest, sometimes i get intertwined between spirituality and just being. I used to look for answers so hard through "spirituality". Then I started facing the fact that spirituality merely stems from "being".

I still slip into misunderstanding often. But This forum helps alot to remind me, along with all the thoughtful posters.

:)

[linz2d]

In order for me to heal I had to upset my whole family. That wasn't an easy choice on my part. At the time I was left with few choices. Not that I was Mr. Good Guy in the deal, but I had to make a choice. I made the ones that I needed to make.

From that experience though I'm sure everyone in your family took something from it. Personally I think true healing takes time and maybe the worm tongue thread is a good place to vent some anger, and when its released then the healing can begin.

[BrianEn]

In order for me to heal I had to upset my whole family. That wasn't an easy choice on my part. At the time I was left with few choices. Not that I was Mr. Good Guy in the deal, but I had to make a choice. I made the ones that I needed to make.

From that experience though I'm sure everyone in your family took something from it. Personally I think true healing takes time and maybe the worm tongue thread is a good place to vent some anger, and when its released then the healing can begin.

I hope so too.

My family refused to take any part in my healing. They for the most part threw it back in my face, and again made everything my fault again. My family has little interest in growing.

[InCiDeR]

Opps...wrong thread...sorry!

[Kindling]

In order for me to heal I had to upset my whole family. That wasn't an easy choice on my part. At the time I was left with few choices. Not that I was Mr. Good Guy in the deal, but I had to make a choice. I made the ones that I needed to make.

Great analogy Brian to what is happening here!! Sometimes a problem can't be solved until it is brought into the light. All in the *family* have suffered through the negative energy and tension. We should naturally be included in the healing. Being honest and transparent is always best. IMHO :-) I applaud you, Brian, for having the courage to do that in your personal situation. It takes courage! You are Mr. Good Guy!! Hugs :-)

Update: Didn't see your last post before posting this. So sorry your family wasn't supportive :(.

[Belle]

Once you allow yourself to become angry, the anger grows the longer it is held inside...and hopefully it can be released in a controlled way, rather than holding it until it explodes.

The choice is always ours as to how we respond to someone or something said that triggers an emotion within us. Do we choose to respond at all?

I can accept a person in my life, or not. I can accept someone else's perspective, or not. I can choose to hold on to things people say or do that I don't agree with or I can let them go. I can choose to take things personally, or I can take whatever value I find within it and discard the rest. The choice is always mine.

Once I ask myself "how important is this one thing, this one person, this one moment going to appear when looking back over my lifetime?", the choice is usually made. I choose peace both inside and out.

[BrianEn]

Update: Didn't see your last post before posting this. So sorry your family wasn't supportive :(.

That's alright. They made their choices.

[Feren]

My opinion on the ideas discussed here, specially anger and the understanding of "choice":

I believe that anger is always a mistake. I don't mean it exactly in a moral sense. I mean that we are wrong about something every time we get angry. Usually, we get angry at people (sometimes we get angry at animals, but waht i'll say might also be true in those cases). WE get angry at them because they disappoint us doing something that was not supposed to be done. The mistake is believing that there is such a thing that "is not supposed to be". It IS supposed to be since it came out of certain causes. It is just a matter of understanding.
We claim taht someone is "responsible" or "guilty", which means that they did evil being able to CHOOSE good. But such responsibility vanishes once you understand that there are millions of reasons why people do what they do, not only because of "choices". And I'm talking about psychological, environmental, genetic, and many other circumpstances that help build our choice.
Ego makes choices, but the rest of the universe is still there.

I agree with firstlook that when we understand others we find no reason to judge or condemn. But I'd like to remark that I strongly believe NO ONE IS RESPONSIBLE FOR THEIR ACTIONS because no one can choose about the great web of circumpstances that they are in. I understand "evil" as "ill" and "wrong" as "unaware". And we are all unaware of many things going on in this precise moment all around the universe(s). All these events taking place right now are all correlated with this event that involves me and all of you avalonians, but I can't say, neither can you, that I am the author of this instant. There are so many things that we don't even imagine (specially within ourselves)..., so on what basis can we judge others for acting according a nature that they don't fully know?

I don't want to be misinterpreted here. I believe in responsibility, but it is not something that I have in myself that makes me responsible, it is just the willing to take whatever comes as a consecuence of my deeds in order to love it and take it as a part of what I actually am. Saying yes to life...

[Ineffable Hitchhiker]

Once I ask myself "how important is this one thing, this one person, this one moment going to appear when looking back over my lifetime?", the choice is usually made. I choose peace both inside and out.


This resonates with me to the core of my being. Thank you for that.

I remember not so long ago, someone said something similar to me :-
" If you ever feel angry and frustrated, before answering take a deep breath, step outside, and wait. Wait a while until your head clears. If necessary, wait a whole week, even a whole lifetime. The true lesson will be to see whether you can rise above all the "personal stuff". "

What wonderful advice. I guess this is one of lifes biggest "struggles", because often one overlooks the big picture and tries to validate ones existence by making a point, by shouting out loud to be heard, by trying to pound ones own "truth" in.

This doesn´t mean avoiding all debates, it just means acknowledging, accepting and honouring each persons journey. If what is being said does not mirror your own reflections, simply move on. Or...

"If you must speak ill of another, do not speak it, write it in the sand near the water´s edge". Napolean Hill :wink:

[linz2d]

Personally I do not see anything wrong with anger and I believe every emotion has its purpose. I think most anger is derived from the feeling of being wronged and if we don't somehow release this emotion it will grow as Belle and Ineffable Hitchhiker have said.

Anger is much like any type of emotional pain and I believe that this is a very good way to think of it, because pain tells us that there is something wrong.

There are other types of emotional pain like fear and heartache. If a loved one dies I experience emotional pain, and to relieve this pain I weep but I cannot feel relieved until I have wept. We have to find some outlet for the anger as soon as possible, If we do not it could end up crippling us like an open wound on the body which does not heal.

[Belle]

Sometimes what makes us angry with another is the reflection of a part of our own character that we don't like very much.

[firstlook]

I have been thinking about how social interaction plays out when it comes to communities like Avalon. Ive always been observant of hierarchal structures being raised in the united states.

Ive noticed that the issue of personal status can play a role even in those well meaning environments. Personal status, meaning that people tend to define themselves by who they support. I know this seems like a irrational criticism, but I want to address what this system of confidence implies when it comes to people you dont want to support.

Thats my issue on "support". While the act in itself is noble and very fulfilling, I think its got a side that people tend to shy away from, as seen in Mainstream politics and society. Why is it that those we tend not to support (give our energy to), we usually try to get them to see our point of view? Our pain? Our concern? I think Because its healthy for us to address our fears. But we use the wrong social interaction to workout those concerns.

I'm really thinking that communities like Avalon are maybe not about social happiness first. But instead about social pain. Isn't this how the laws of cause and effect in our universe work?

I dont want to seem like i am telling people to be one way or another, but it seems more productive to start revealing our pains first before addressing what or who we support. We have to keep pain just as close as happiness IMO. This of course varies on different levels and topics, but all in all, in generates the openness that prevents storing up those pains that turn into bitterness. Anger is something IMO that seems is more self directed, while bitterness involves outside parties.

In Society talking about your pain related to each topic you bring up is seen as a neurosis or depression, but thats only from another's view. I really do think that each topics we bring up, we should discuss the deepest concerns we have about how challenges effect us. Not the fear of what is happening to us, but instead the inner challenge we feel we are not ready for. Isn't that what fear of the NWO is in the first place? The concern that we cannot rise to the occasion?

Just some thoughts questions.

:)

[Tao O]

Hi PA Family, I feel prompted to say that I wish there was more of a paradigm of debat/discussion like this thread, as a cause of celebration on PA,' esp. in re: to the Charles Material', instead of polarization. This thread is GREAT! I hope everyone reads at least 50% of the posts here!

I wish to reference the Hebrews, both culturally and scholastically, grow and are nourished by debate of every kind and to every depth. It is the life blood of their community and way of being. In this brilliant collective which allows and encourages every particle of every issue to be opened completely to debate, with love and respect, leraning and sharing.... and does not get caught up in value judgements of good/bad.. right/wrong, as separative and divisive. It thus includes growth for all.

The whole Universe is run on BOTH poles ....both positive and negative (positive not being right & neg. not being wrong or bad))...as complementary and necessary for ALL life to move through time/space..(from subatomic particles to us humans.

Let us see and adopt this example/model of Jewish Spiritual Enlightenment as a wholistic, healthy and welcoming way of being instead of the endless negation and lack of respect.

What is there to be afraid of? Both sides create BALANCE and these outcomes will produce greater wholeness in ourselves and the issues/challenges we face together. Otherwise we leave out half the beings and their consciousness and evolution and wind up facing each other in 'stand offs', instead of facing the future and unknown together as a team, a whole.

We can instead be Celebrating all the Magic that Existence can bring.
Can we GROW UP and not feel threatened by another's viewpoint/experience? Can we, not have to BE RIGHT!

I think we have to be better than the old paradigm, where we get beyond ' Us and Them', ( which begets all wars), by our understanding and attitudes of who and what we are.....together. I really hope this happens... Stay awake out there, Quantum-ly w/love

Keep this thread going!!!

[linz2d]

firstlook you always have me pondering. :confused: On fear, the way I view fear is that it is an emotional pain(kind of) or rather the anticipation of pain being inflicted both on a physical and or mental level. We can apply this analogy to individuals who fear others or those who fear they may lose their jobs, or those who fear the NWO. So is fear the emotional pain of an individual when they predict an outcome which will result in emotional pain. :suspicious: ...well I just make this stuff up as I go along,

Hi Tao O when you refer to an "example/model of Jewish Spiritual Enlightenment" are you perhaps referring to the Kabbalah. I find it very interesting but I personally tend not have a specific belief system. I like to think of my spirituality as liquid and one could look at a belief system or religion as a container to drink that liquid from, so perhaps the Kabbalah can be viewed as a cup that is shaped a different way to the cup of Taosim and each religion has their own shaped cup. I tend not to restrict my spirituality by placing it in a specific cup but rather to try and drink from the source. So one could say, the only belief system I have is my own and this will change as my understanding changes.

Yes I must agree though honest openness is important even if it means we have to upset some people.

[Feren]

Anger is much like any type of emotional pain and I believe that this is a very good way to think of it, because pain tells us that there is something wrong

Emotional pain, as well as physical pain, is a matter of perception. It depends of certain perspective, certain mode of comprehension. People who grasp reality in a different way might experience emotions in adifferent way. Those "emotions" and "pains", likes and dislikes, are the core of our perception. Healing is changing perceptions, changing feelings.
Forgiveness is an example of this: it means that one's feelings are no longer against another one (or ourselves).

Yours might be a good way to think it. The hard thing to do is finding a way to feel it differently. "If you don't let your pain out it will grow". What if you could feel something different than pain? Waht if you could rise upon your old emotions the same way to rise against your old beliefs and replace them? For me, that would be a superior morality.

By the way, anger is not "wrong" --it is not a sin. But it is the result of certain "wrongness", certain misconception, certain "barbarism" of aprehension, which is sometimes called "low vibrational level", "low level of consciousness" or "lack of awareness".

[linz2d]

Anger is much like any type of emotional pain and I believe that this is a very good way to think of it, because pain tells us that there is something wrong

Emotional pain, as well as physical pain, is a matter of perception. It depends of certain perspective, certain mode of comprehension. People who grasp reality in a different way might experience emotions in adifferent way. Those "emotions" and "pains", likes and dislikes, are the core of our perception. Healing is changing perceptions, changing feelings.
Forgiveness is an example of this: it means that one's feelings are no longer against another one (or ourselves).

Yours might be a good way to think it. The hard thing to do is finding a way to feel it differently. "If you don't let your pain out it will grow". What if you could feel something different than pain? Waht if you could rise upon your old emotions the same way to rise against your old beliefs and replace them? For me, that would be a superior morality.

Well you are correct, it is all about ones individual perspective on the matter. Just to note though I have never asked anyone to believe in what I have written, in fact I hope you do question my beliefs and point of views if it means confirming your own. No doubt in some ways I have gotten it wrong but I myself am still learning. :nod:

[Feren]

Well you are correct, it is all about ones individual perspective on the matter. Just to note though I have never asked anyone to believe in what I have written, in fact I hope you do question my beliefs and point of views if it means confirming your own. No doubt in some ways I have gotten it wrong but I myself am still learning. :nod:

So am I. Sharing points of view makes us more sensitive and understanding (i'd rather say STRONGER). What I write or claim is what I believe after years of thinking and living, and it is always in construction. We never fully understand anything, that's why the more we share point of view, the stronger and more accurate our perspectives. Maybe the strongest point of view is that which contains every other point of view. That would be absolute comprehension (though it might actually be impossible).

[Belle]

Anger is much like any type of emotional pain and I believe that this is a very good way to think of it, because pain tells us that there is something wrong

Emotional pain, as well as physical pain, is a matter of perception. It depends of certain perspective, certain mode of comprehension. People who grasp reality in a different way might experience emotions in adifferent way. Those "emotions" and "pains", likes and dislikes, are the core of our perception. Healing is changing perceptions, changing feelings.
Forgiveness is an example of this: it means that one's feelings are no longer against another one (or ourselves).

Yours might be a good way to think it. The hard thing to do is finding a way to feel it differently. "If you don't let your pain out it will grow". What if you could feel something different than pain? Waht if you could rise upon your old emotions the same way to rise against your old beliefs and replace them? For me, that would be a superior morality.

Well you are correct, it is all about ones individual perspective on the matter. Just to note though I have never asked anyone to believe in what I have written, in fact I hope you do question my beliefs and point of views if it means confirming your own. No doubt in some ways I have gotten it wrong but I myself am still learning. :nod:

We are all still learning, linz2d. Taking in others beliefs and point of views and rolling them around in our thoughts to see what fits is a worthy exercise, whether it confirms our own views or not. At least it makes us think and learn and grow, and especially understand others better.

"No doubt in some ways I have gotten it wrong..." I don't necessarily believe in right or wrong, good or bad as the terms are generally used. A belief that is right for some, may be wrong for others depending on where a person is in their growth. I consider it "different". As I taught my children when they were young, different doesn't mean better or worse....different is just different and that's okay.

[linz2d]

"No doubt in some ways I have gotten it wrong..." I don't necessarily believe in right or wrong, good or bad as the terms are generally used. A belief that is right for some, may be wrong for others depending on where a person is in their growth. I consider it "different". As I taught my children when they were young, different doesn't mean better or worse....different is just different and that's okay.

Well I do believe that there are certain truths in this world that cannot be wrong irrespective of ones views but I agree right or wrong, good or bad can all be viewed depending on the persons perspective with relation to their understanding which they have acquired.

Maybe the biggest problem we have is not our views but how our views are interpreted or should I say misinterpreting when we have written them down, as a line can be read in one way, whilst another person may read it in another. So a person might think they are being insulted whilst there was no insult intended. And this can lead to anger and tension.

[Inanna]

In my experience, anger is really an emotion that has every right to be. But it's how you handle it that is important, indeed.
The problem is not the emotion, but the reaction to the emotion. Most of the time we judge the emotion and project it towards the reason we THINK we're angry about: this can be the situation the anger was triggered from, this can be a person who triggered the anger, etc... But that kind of reaction is almost always a resistance (sometimes even denial) towards the emotion. We judge negatively. Anger makes us uncomfortable, so we react in such a way that hopefully the confrontation with the emotion is evaded (by projecting it towards something or someone else who we believe is the source of our anger).

In mindfulness we're thaught to first really allow the anger to be. That takes time. You have to step back for a minute and just 'feel' what's there to feel. No judgement.
That gives you the opportunity to go beyond the surface of this emotion. You go really right THROUGH it. And if you're through (it hurts like hell!) you often discover the real source of that specific emotion. In my experience, anger is often an emotion that covers my own sadness: sadness for the fact that I feel unworthy, that I feel abandoned, that I feel lost in some kind of way. And that is not anyone's responsibility. It is entirely MINE and MINE only.

I feel that sadness. I feel the emotion of being lost, feeling unworthy, etcetera... Really feeling it softens my own judgement. I really feel compassionate about myself at that point. It's really opening my perspective and in the end it gives me even the strength to feel compassion towards the so called (at least, I THOUGHT they were) 'source' of my anger (you see how that is an illusion? It's just your coloured judgement, but it's not the truth. The truth lies within!).
This 'mindfulness' way of non-reaction gives me the tools to find that deep inner love. It's the core of my heart, the REAL definition of who I really am.

And if you get to that place you won't feel the need to react in such a way that you're hurting other people (if you do that, you always end up hurting yourself and the sadness grows bigger, and the anger explodes even more!). If you then react, it will be out of love, not anger.

The difficult part is that it takes an enormous amount of courage to do so. And it takes time (time you THINK you don't have when you're angry and feel the need to react from that anger).
I don't always have the courage to take that step back. Sometimes, the trigger is too big, and I'm reacting before I even know it. And then the harm is done. It feeds your ego. Your ego takes over and it feels being attacked, so it will do anything to protect itself. It's really exhaustive that way. And it triggers a lot of people, because everyone has that sadness inside of them, and not everybody knows how to handle that.

I find it very fascinating. It's really a big opportunity to learn. And also to fail, because nobody is perfect. Everyone has moments where it's too difficult to take a step back. Where we're not able to find that courage. We should be compassionate about that, because no one is thát perfect.

Edit: in that place, deep within myself, I also feel the connection with EVERYTHING. I know everything and everyone is connected on a deep level. It's really worthwhile to find that place, because it has changed my whole life and I'm sure it can change yours!

[Lord Sidious]

Anger isn't good or bad, it is how it is used.
Remember, it is a defense mechanism.

[ulli]

Anger isn't good or bad, it is how it is used.
Remember, it is a defense mechanism.

Defense mechanism? That would mean something needs defending.
What would that be?

About recent events here:

there is anger all around because there are so many lines of defense:

some want to defend Bill Ryan personally, some want to defend Project Avelon,
some want to defend the community itself, to the last weak member, including the trouble makers,
and some want to defend their right to express
their whims, impulses, repressed anger even the kind that should have been directed at a collegue at work...
Whose anger counts the most?
Bill's of course.
He has the finger on the red button.
If he decides to leave I can predict what will happen to the PA forum in a matter of a couple of weeks.
Spam messages galore.

[Lord Sidious]

Anger isn't good or bad, it is how it is used.
Remember, it is a defense mechanism.

Defense mechanism? That would mean something needs defending.
What would that be?

About recent events here:

there is anger all around because there are so many lines of defense:

some want to defend Bill Ryan personally, some want to defend Project Avelon,
some want to defend the community itself, to the last weak member, including the trouble makers,
and some want to defend their right to express
their whims, impulses, repressed anger even the kind that should have been directed at a collegue at work...
Whose anger counts the most?
Bill's of course.
He has the finger on the red button.
If he decides to leave I can predict what will happen to the PA forum in a matter of a couple of weeks.
Spam messages galore.

People felt threatened by what was going on and their response was anger.

[Belle]

Anger isn't good or bad, it is how it is used.
Remember, it is a defense mechanism.

I agree, Lord Sidious. I posted my experience with anger on another thread a while ago, so it's buried deep in the list of old threads.

It takes a lot to get me mad. I have a few triggers, but at this point in my life they don't quite work as they once did, much like the rest of me... Anyway, when I was young, I would reach a point I could feel the anger build to where I would "red out". I don't know how else to describe it. I would actually see like a sheet of red in front of me and as it cleared, I would be verbally attacking the person that made me angry. And not just verbally attacking...I could find their weakest spots, their vunerabilities and use words much like a sword to cut them to shreds. Most people viewed me as being "such a sweet kid"...but definitely not the ones who had experienced my anger.

The last time I got that angry was at my Dad when I was eighteen years old. He took everything I had, all the poison that came out of my mouth, and when it was done he said to my Mom, who was crying at this point, "She had to get that out. I'll never let her know how much she hurt me." And he never did. I couldn't take it back...not the words, not the hurt, none of it could be taken back.

My life changed that day. Whenever I would feel anger begin inside me, all I could think about was how deeply I hurt my Dad...and never could bear to cause that kind of hurt to anyone ever again. Today, I really dislike conflict and don't deal with it very well. I just don't see a need to create harm in another to make ones self feel better. And as far as all that energy goes, I now choose to use it to heal and unify.

That was my lesson, learned the hard way but leaving a lasting impression.

ps I've learned to take the anger like my Dad, and turn it into a force for good. So if you're angry at someone, you can turn that anger on me. It's okay, I can transform that energy into something positive and no one else will get hurt.

[Tao O]

'Hello' all Avalonians, this is to clarify, for Linz2d, and everyone, when speaking of a 'model' collective whose opinions can be very diverse, strong and intense. And of course anger is a natural part of all that communication. I did not mean the SUBJECT MATTER( their beliefs) at all

But rather the 'Spirit' in which all of their expressions are allowed to 'BE' and thus they process with each other, even though it may get very heated. I used the Jewish example, because many Mediterranean peoples also express in great volume, but from my own experience, when they polarize they usually wind up angry and not speaking to each other for decades, even forgetting what the riff was about initially.

So that a group can achieve a level of acceptance of each other and embrace each other and grow as a 'whole'..and acknowledging it to be a root characteristic of their Spiritual/intellectual growth is worthy of note.

I feel we can achieve even more evolved ways of being, by using respectful and appropriate language in that tenor of 'acceptance' And thus it will evolve as a basis of our interaction on every level.

A forum is more than just posting 'your' opinion and reading others'. There is response-ability that rises up quickly...one that includes dynamics of the whole spectrum of who people are and where they are and what the purpose and the potential we create together is. We want to see everyone flower, not just the ones that agree with us.

Maybe that is why in the 'world' paradigm of getting along and being heard at the same time requires diplomacy and Public Relations, essential in any dialogue with different agendas, and ways of being, etc. I think we respect Bill for his mastery in this area. And PA could never get off the ground if Bill was only about his ego expressing all the time.

An example that triggers polarization for me is: when a person, like a fundamentalist, says that I SHOULD love Jesus... and that I am Satan and going to Hell for having a Guru. I respond, that I love the fact they love Jesus, but I need for them to respect me as a person and not insist I love Jesus too. That they respect my Being and my beliefs though they may be very different from theirs. And I think Jesus said to love everyone..not just Christians. And then I hope they hear my heart and mind and see the boundary they crossed.

When our beliefs incite hatred and separateness, judgment and superiority, at the expense of putting others down...the boundary of respect has been crossed. We can find a way to say what we feel, know etc. without imposing those thoughts and feelings on others. AND...learning to help those that do cross the boundary of respect in respectful ways. I see so many Avalonians that really keep respect towards others..and I feel so good inside from that!

I trust, we can represent our beliefs & ideas mentally and emotionally regardless of the volume/intensity if we keep respect as a 'must' boundary. IMHO I would love for us to embrace a bigger Reality, that includes, all that we are aware of, WITH LOVE AND RESPECT. 'Apologies' are a part of the boundary keeping...cause we are not perfect. Maybe just saying, what you said makes me feel angry, or sad, or whatever..without calling others names of a degrading kind.

I look forward to my learning all of this myself..as I am a new member and see the opportunities that will present themselves. I am sure I am preaching to the choir for most of you. Thanks for your patience...hugs to all.

[ulli]

Belle, I also learnt early not to express anger.
And I did hurt my dad too, on the last occasions that I did.
The lesson to turn anger into positive took me a lot longer to learn.
If this was an astrology site I would tell people I have Pluto square Moon,
and they would immediately understand what that implies.
Anger is repressed, out of an excessive desire for peace and harmony.
But repressed anger can fester, and make one sick.
So it is a matter of learning how to manage energy.
Because anger is stored up energy, in need of redirection.

[Belle]

I've spent my life seeking to eliminate the pain in it. Rather than running away from it, I tried to identify it and asked the "universe" (or Holy Spirit, or God or higher self or whatever you choose to call it) for help. For example, I am a professional musician, classically trained, who only saw the lack in my ability to create my own music, preferring to interpret others music. Before playing, I would have terrible panic attacks...waves of nausea, lightheadedness, a feeling I was beginning to pass out. Among the many reasons for this I could identify was fear...well, absolute terror, to tell the truth. So I asked what is fear, why is it in my life, and how do I eliminate it...which started a 2-1/2 year journey understanding fear and how I place it in my life for my own reasons, and the process of eliminating unnecessary fear...the kind that stops you from accomplishing your purpose. My latest journey is through non-judgement, by far the most difficult yet rewarding journey so far.

I guess what I'm trying to say, and unfortunately doing a very poor job of it, is there is no reason to repress anger. You cannot deny or repress what you feel without hurting yourself. If it exists in you, acknowledge it, feel it, question it's existence in your life...bring it to light from the darkness. You will be amazed by what you learn and how the answers will come to you. If you are sincere and open, your life will change in ways you cannot imagine.

[ulli]

I've spent my life seeking to eliminate the pain in it. Rather than running away from it, I tried to identify it and asked the "universe" (or Holy Spirit, or God or higher self or whatever you choose to call it) for help. For example, I am a professional musician, classically trained, who only saw the lack in my ability to create my own music, preferring to interpret others music. Before playing, I would have terrible panic attacks...waves of nausea, lightheadedness, a feeling I was beginning to pass out. Among the many reasons for this I could identify was fear...well, absolute terror, to tell the truth. So I asked what is fear, why is it in my life, and how do I eliminate it...which started a 2-1/2 year journey understanding fear and how I place it in my life for my own reasons, and the process of eliminating unnecessary fear...the kind that stops you from accomplishing your purpose. My latest journey is through non-judgement, by far the most difficult yet rewarding journey so far.

I guess what I'm trying to say, and unfortunately doing a very poor job of it, is there is no reason to repress anger. You cannot deny or repress what you feel without hurting yourself. If it exists in you, acknowledge it, feel it, question it's existence in your life...bring it to light from the darkness. You will be amazed by what you learn and how the answers will come to you. If you are sincere and open, your life will change in ways you cannot imagine.



Poor job? What poor job??

I had panic attacks like that, too, the first few times I stood in front of 150 people with a microphone in my hand.
I felt like I was passing out.
Then the inflow of perception stops, and the outflow of self expression begins.
It's like a little death.
Then a rebirth.

Arthur Rubinstein said once:
"Stage fright was the price I paid for the wonderful life I led."