str8thinker
7th March 2011, 13:51
Thanks Circe. I liked this interview so much I created a slightly abridged transcript.
Viper's actual interview doesn't begin until 23:50 into this 108-minute audio, so I omitted the preliminaries. Questions by the interviewers are sometimes omitted or appear within brackets at the beginning (and sometimes within) each paragraph. A paragraph may contain multiple related questions, to save space.
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[Viper] I joined the air force to be an air traffic controller, but due to my background I ended up in the heating and air conditioning field. I ended up at Nellis Air Force Base. ...
One day I got a letter to report to the squadron headquarters and he says "Here, you're going over to Base Ops, you're going to be the squadron NBC NCO/IC (Non-Commissioned Officer In Charge)... I had no idea so I showed up at this class to find out it was a Nuclear Biological and Chemical warfare-type class and what they did was they taught you how to get in this NBC suit (like an MA1 suit)... The next thing I know, I was shipped off to Groom Lake Airfield, which at that time was called the C Annexe. And then from there I was shipped to which was called the D annexe, which was Papoose Lake ...
I was 18 when this happened. I joined the Air Force when I was 17. I'm 'over 50' now. Papoose Lake is nothing but a big apron, like a parking lot. It's got a road coming to a parking lot. You go into the side of a mountain (like NORAD, only there's no gate entry. You don't see a doorway, it's all camouflaged.)
Once you get inside there (at the time I was working there) there was nine hangars, twenty officers and two laboratories. Now, from what I've heard, there's twelve hangars, forty-something officers and four labs there. The hangars were for aircraft that NBC people like me (Air Force, Army, together) recovered. We were to recover these objects that were aircraft that weren't built in the U.S., or anywhere else on this earth as far as I'm concerned... but, they weren't U.S. aircraft.
There was five that were intact and four that were in pieces. When you go out on a site, you'd pick up what you could pick up visually, and guys would walk around with a metal detector and pick up what else they could pick up. It just depended on the site. None of the eight sites I was on were the same.
If (the intact craft recovered) held human occupants you'd have to be a dwarf, four feet tall, certainly under five feet tall. (No huge mother ships, but) the biggest one we recovered was right at forty foot. Most were between twelve and thirty-two foot.
(The surface materials) were not the same in every case...the metals were not the same in every case, I should say. (On touching) the surface did not feel like regular metal. They felt like a polished stainless steal or a polished aluminum, only when you look at the thickness of 'em, it was like picking up aluminum foil or Saran wrap. It's so hard to explain because...you see this piece, this hunk of metal out there and you "know" (i.e., you think) it's going to take ten guys to pick up this chunk of metal. And one guy picks it up, puts it on his shoulder and hauls it over to the truck. And it's like, you're just flabbergasted.
(Would you say the intact craft and all the pieces are from the same kind of creators?) Yes.
(Where did you go to retrieve them?) There were three in Texas, two in New Mexico. One was right in White Sands missile range, and another one was north of the missile range, edge of a mountain range with an Indian name to it (Anasazee? range). That particular one was on an Indian reservation. (In Texas) one was between San Angelo and Odessa, Texas. All three of the Texas ones were in 1978. The first one I went on I have no idea because they didn't tell us. We were in blackout. And that's the one where I picked up the huge pieces it left, the huge crater that was twenty foot deep and forty to sixty foot across, and they dug down thirty-eight feet to get to the pods. If I was to guess I would say central Texas, in the hill country...but in the flat land, between Austin and San Antone, east of I35. The other one would have been out by El Paso, just off Fort Bliss.
(Were these sites already covered by civilians or were you the first ones there, i.e., were these picked-over sites when you got there?) No. The very first on I was on, there were two Texas highway patrolmen sitting at the front gate, and as we drove in it was all Air Force personnel in there. The first one I was on there was no Army personnel at all. Now, the second (and) third one I was on, the Army was the first ones there. At no time did I ever see any civilians on any of them.
(Returning to digging the craft out of the ground) If you take the core of it, like you call the engine compartment or whatever, it hit the ground so hard it buried itself thirty-eight feet deep. (Was it still smoking when you got to it?) It wasn't smoking until the backhoe dug it out and the crane latched onto the pieces and pulled it up. The pieces were still hot. And some of the pieces that we picked up, you could feel the heat through your clothes. How hot, I couldn't tell you.
(What did you mean by 'pod things'?) What you would consider like an engine, like an airplane engine, these craft got like cylindrical pods. They almost look like ceramic conductors or something. (Three or?) four foot high, about eighteen inches in diameter, all the ones I remember seeing had four of them, like little engine pods. Some were radioactive, but they weren't above what you would call normal levels. You've got normal radioactivity, then radioactivity that's above normal, and then radioactivity that's harmful.
At none of those sites was it harmful but it was...like the SR-71s that used to fly over Russia...when they (the Russians) would set off a nuclear weapon, our SR-71s would fly through it and then they'd come into Groom Lake and land and you'd have to run out in these NBC suits and wash them down with this special solvent stuff, and the soap all went into a special tank. You had to save everything and clean the plane up and "de-radioactive" it.
(Were any parts of these crashes handled differently, i.e., did the pods go to one kind of group and the metal fragments go to another?) No, everything went to Papoose Lake. The only thing I remember going to a different place was outside of St. George, in the Virgin Mountains, when we had a red flag mission. There was one (where) an F-4 was coming up one side of the mountain and the UFO was on the other, and the F4 hit it in the back, and it crashed into the other side of the mountain. When we got there...by the time my squadron got there, there was two body bags that were layin' (lying) there. (For humans or for non-humans?) I don't know what was in the body bags. All I can tell you is that they were two very small body bags, like a child's body bag.
(What does this red flag mission mean?) (The) Air Force has like these war games, they invite different squadrons either from the U.S. or from all over the world, and you go out to the Nevada test range or bomb range and you sit there and play these war games (he describes them). If you ever hear of an A-10 crash it usually means he's crashed because he's running through the Virgin Mountains at 300 knots and he can't pull out or something...
If you're up at Groom Lake they've got what they call Red Hats, we've got MiG-21s, 25s, 27s out there, S-22s, They've got all these Russian craft. Back in the 60s and 70s they used to have, like this, "You get a million dollars U.S. (reward) if you defect with your plane from China, North Korea, wherever" And they'd bring this plane to Nellis Air Force Base, then literally strip it down and put it back together. When I was there they still couldn't believe that Russian planes (compared with American planes) were all hand-made, and how much heavier they were than the American aircraft but how much better their engines were than our engines.
(Describes again how a F-4 (Phantom) jet collides with a UFO as it emerges from the other side of a mountain, and how the UFO turns down into the valley and hits the mountain on the other side.) The F-4 crashed as well and killed the pilot. (What was the pilot's family told?) That he died on a training mission.
(Do the UFOs ordinarily ever mix in with a war game?) I wouldn't know, but that was the first time that we ever experienced (that).
We were dispatched to retrieve the F-4, and we ended up at the UFO crash. There was nothing left of the F-4, so somewhere en route we got diverted to this, 'cause that particular UFO, with the exception of the big dent in it where it hit the mountain, was 80-90% intact.
(What shape was the UFO?) This one looked like that new Psion car. The dome part was kinda boxy. It wasn't a round dome; it's more like a box dome. But it was round. The bottom just looked like a coffee saucer with four light spots in the bottom where the pods were.
(Were the pods the engines?) Yes. When I was at Papoose Lake I was always (hearing) the engineers say the pods were some type of "antigravitational" engine, and each one of these pods had to create an enormous amount of energy.
(Did they ever figure out what drove the pods?) When I was there, no. They were still trying to figure out how to make them work. And they did. I've since talked to a guy at...You know when I was there they had 'em working to where they'd get them off the ground just hovering four feet. And he says, "No, now they go up like...now they just run the engines ... remember the barrels??? Well they run them up a hundred, seventy five feet, a hundred feet up in the air." So they figured out what they were, then. But me personally, no, I've long been (gone) from Papoose Lake, so I can only go with (what) my friends who are still at Nellis, or in the service, or in the civilian part of it, will talk about.
(Recounts the collision between the F-4 and the UFO) You could see the green and brown paint from the F-4 where it hit on the backside of it, that was sticking out from the mountain 'cause the crane had come out. They actually took a backhoe and scraped the rock away and then the crane picked it up and put it on a big flatbed truck and he drove it out. And a big Skycrane (helicopter) picked it up.
(And the two body bags were from the UFO?) That's what I was told. (Asked about the body bags) It wasn't a normal body bag. I been to many aircraft sites. A normal body bag takes four guys to pick it up. And this one, just two guys picked it up. We loaded it on a doose? (deux?) and a half and we drove it to a C-130 (large transport aircraft) and we got on the C-130 and flew to New York State and they ended up at some place named Brookhaven (National Laboratories, Long Island).
(So you're a living witness to a retrieval?) Yes, but I cannot tell you what was in them (body bags). (How close were you to the body bags?) I was sitting in a jump seat and they're sitting in a stainless steel box in the center of the C-130 on a pallet, so...five feet (away), I suppose.
(Were you afraid that they might still be alive in there?) No. I never seen the things, so I wouldn't know. I mean when you're in the Air Force and you're an airman or a sergeant and this colonel comes up screamin' and yellin' at you, you're, like, scared to death. You do what you're told, you keep your mouth shut...When that happened, I don't think (the film) Alien had come out yet.
(What year was this?) This would have been seventy-nine (1979).
(Do you remember any smells at the crash site?) If you've ever been at a foundry after they've freshly poured iron or steel or aluminum, that was the burnt (with?) part of it. But they weren't like normal air crash sites. You go to a normal air crash site, you can smell the burning bodies, that knocks you out first. Then you can smell the burnt aluminum and you can smell the burnt copper wiring from the insulation on the wiring. And you can smell the burnt foam from seats. None of those smells you smell (from a UFO). The only thing it was, it was like a heat smell, just like out of Kilauea (Hawaiian volcano). When you smell the hot lava, without the sulphur smell. I can't say there was a sulphur smell, no.
(Was there an ozone smell?) Mmm...yeah, I could say that, though, but it... Yeah, I remember... That would be an hour after I (had) been at the site. 'Cause the first hour I was there, I was in an NBC suit. So, after everything was cleared and okayed and I was allowed to take my respirator off, then, I have to say, the two (sites) in New Mexico, they really, yeah, now that I think about it, really had that strong (ozone) smell. The others, I'd have to say, no.
(So what year did you stop going to the crashes?) Eighty-three, eighty-four (1983-4). I got out in April '84.
(Are things like this still going on?) Yeah, I know they are. I got a buddy that works in (BAYSOCS?) now. He's a civilian now. We were at the (docks?) in (Loughland?), Nevada. ??? went to State Park. May 8, 2008? I can't remember. This thing comes whistling over the top of our head(s). I thought it was a meteor. So that afternoon I called my buddy up at Nellis...He says "No, that was one of our military satellites that overshot, you know, like two hundred and fifty miles...the parachutes didn't deploy. And it was supposed to land in Nellis test range." I guess it's one of the spy satellites, you know, one that Bell or Hughes make. I thought that's kinda interesting. (After being prompted) It crashed in the Eagles, California.
(Do you think that some of the things you retrieved were our military (the eight other items)?) No way, no way. We didn't make them, the Russians didn't. Every plane we make has got wiring in it, has got cable in it, has got hydraulic lines in it. These didn't have none of that. When you seen one open or in pieces, at no time do you see a hydraulic line an electrical line, an electrical cable, a steel cable, you know, to move the ailerons, actuator arms, anything like that.
(Are there any windows in this craft?) What *you* would call windows? No, because...I'll take (crash site) number four, for example. That one was open. And when its doors was open, it had, like, two levels. You could see what I would call an engine room, and you could see up on the upper deck. Of course, you've got to remember that at that time I was, like, six, six-six,seven (six and a half feet tall) and I could look straight in. And when you look at the dome from the outside, it's solid silver, looks like polished stainless steel. But when you look inside it, you could look at the walls all way round the hangar. So you could actually look out. But it looked like stainless steel. (Agrees it's like a two-way mirror [should have been a one-way mirror!].) But windows, no, None of the ones I recovered, yet.
(So at six foot seven (inches tall), you're too big to get into one of these things?) Oh yeah. I could get my head in it (laughs). We had a bunch of small guys that were like like, five-one, in our squad. We'd crawl all over inside and we'd ask "What do you see inside? What do you see?" And they'd tell you everything.
(What did they tell you they saw?) Like, for example, there were no seats. There were no bathrooms. No place to eat. There was like no food in there, no bathroom, no water, like you'd find on a normal plane.
(What did the space contain?) Space. There was nothing there. What I could see was just like ... I mean from where I was standing, I couldn't (could) see two-seventy-degree nothin' but control panel type (control panel extending 270 degrees, i.e., three-quarters of the way, around the cabin) - what I would call control panel.
(What did the control panel look like?) It was on a slant, maybe twenty-two degree angle, maybe eighteen inches width, kinda like in (the film?) Compass, the area of the ship and it looked like petroglyphs, I guess you'd say, or Egyptian hieroglyphs, nothing you would say would be like letters or sentences. There was just pictures and weird stuff.
(Were they carved in or were they something you could run your hands over?) It was like a flat screen monitor, set at an angle.
(Was the inside lit in any way?) Number four was, yeah. Number four was an operational craft. They actually took it out on the apron and got it to go up, you know, sit there and hover like (at) four feet.
(How was number four captured?) That's the one we would have picked up there at White Sands, New Mexico. (How did that crash?) I think it crashed in a lightning storm because right before, that's when we picked up...right after that we picked up number five. (It must have been a lightning storm) because number five had a hole in it. That one we stuck in Bay 9. We stood it up on end so if you looked at it, it looked like a missile. Pilot report said it got hit by lightning.
(Do you think that lightning brings most of them down?) With the exception of the one that got hit by the F-4, yeah. I think that's the only thing that can bring them down.
(You don't think HAARP has anything to do with it?) Oh, I think HAARP could bring 'em down, yeah.
(How did the officers characterize these UFOs to you? Technology that was millions of years ahead, or technology we could understand given a little time?) Beyond our conception.
(Do you agree with that?) No. (How come?) Just because it seems like all of a sudden, instead of big old fat electrical switches that are made out of ???, (we now have) tiny diodes made out of silicon.
(Do you think that there must be tons (of UFOs) that haven't come down (crashed), meaning that there are a lot in our skies?) What would you consider a lot (humorously)? (More than one!) In all my seven years I seen eight. But they 'come down' in clusters now. Like when they energized HAARP, out there in White Sands, (that) was back way back when, it was within a day or two that we found the one, and then right after that we found another one with the hole in it, and like the ones in Texas, got one in January, February and April, I think. That was, like, three right in a row. And then the two right in White Sands. And it was another year later, January or February of '79, we had the one that crashed in Virgin Mountains, and then we had one that crashed in Arizona, that was later in the year - that one was up by Flagstaff, if I remember right. Somewhere up between Flagstaff and Wins-... Windsor or Winslow, Arizona?). And then we had the other one that crashed in Nevada.
(Do you feel that the government's ready for all this to come out? Do you feel that you're in danger by talking about this?) Am I in danger? Yeah. Well, if they knew who I was, yeah I'd probably lose all my VA benefits and my pension and stuff. Are they trying a way to take it away from me? I don't think the government wants it (to come out), no, no. Because if the government comes out and says... Two reasons (why the government doesn't want it to come out): Number one, they can't protect our skies. And there's nothing that they can do about it, period. Number two, it blows every concept of religion off the face of the Earth, if you stop and think about it. I mean, you've got these things coming out of the sky and where does everyone's religion go to? Next thing you know, we don't have the Ten Commandments. We don't have the Seven Deadly Sins. Next thing you know you got mass chaos because, you know, a lot of people won't commit a crime because they say it's a sin. It's like me. I'm not going to go to the grocery store and steal a banana because to me it's a sin. (When) I was brought up it was a sin. I would feel guilty about it. Now, if you didn't have the Ten Commandments, you wouldn't feel guilty about stealing something or killing somebody, or whatever. And I think that's what the government's afraid of.
(Did the crews you were part of have counselling after you retrieved these crashes?) Everyone (was) debriefed. I learned after the first one, you kept your mouth shut. (If you had emotional problems, would they take you off of it, try to help you?) Yeah, you get Section 8, after you were court-martialled and given an Article 15. But I don't remember that happening that often. Most of the people, beside the Psych evals [evaluations] that you did, you were too scared of your superiors. You were more scared of the Tech Sergeant or Master Sergeant bug(ging) you or the Colonel or Lieutenant-Colonel or Captain would bug you than what you found. You could explain, oh, okay, "I found a Chinese aircraft", or a Russian aircraft. You could explain it off, that way. Even though you knew it wasn't, you could explain it off that way.
(Did any of these stories reach the news? Were there any 'flaps' (sensation) around them, cover stories, etc.?) The only cover story I remember was the red flag mission - just said the pilot crashed into the ground. But that was like a total falsehood. It hit another ship in the air. It was an air-to-air incident. It wasn't what they said it was. If you want to call that a cover-up, that was a cover-up.
(In the New Mexico crash you mentioned, if no wiring, cables, hydraulic lines, metal struts, what was there in its place? What did you see?) Oh, that one wasn't in pieces, Bill. There was one in New Mexico that had the hole straight through it. Then there was another one that could have come down in a lightning storm or HAARP could have brought it down, either one, I don't know. But, like, the one with the hole through it, you take a missile and run it through the middle of a plane, you're going to see the insides of the plane. You're going to see the cables, the wires, the seats, everything else. You don't see that in this one. And the other ones when we picked up pieces, I've never been on wreck sites where you go pick up, you know, (the) cockpit...It's just, you know, nothing but thousands and thousands and thousands of wires, and cables, and everything else. Even the tail section's full of cables and hoses, and the wings are full of hoses and cables and stuff. Nowhere on any of the pieces that you picked up (from a UFO) was there anything like a wire, or a cable, or a hose, or nothin'. And that's what made 'em so unusual. I don't believe they were built or made in Germany, or Russia, China or Japan, or anywhere else.
(How do you think the controls were connected?) Like a fibre-optic cable, but only flat.
(Were there any liquids? Anything sticky, etc.?) No liquids, no gas, no water, no fluids draining out like hydraulic fluid.
(Has there ever been any response from the people who make these, for their fallen comrades? Have they ever come back to look for whoever took their bodies, who took their pieces?) I'd ask the Air Force that (humorously). That's a very good question (laughs).
(How was Papoose Lake organized?) You had a civilian section, and you had a military section. You had a military command, and then you had us flunkies that maintained the building, changed lights, did the heating and air conditioning. They had other civilians that mopped the floors, like those guys in Tonopah or whatever, in one of the surrounding communities. Then you had civilians from, say, Hughes, Martin 'Marinetta' [Marietta], Lockheed, Grumman, Northrop. All these guys were booked had their own little offices and their own wall-specific fingerwork gone(?). It was like everybody had a certain piece. Nobody wrote... The only place you really communicated was in the chow hall, you know, the mess hall, barrack room, whatever you want to call it. The guys from Hughes would talk with the guys from Grumman. Like any officers they were separated; they weren't allowed to talk to one another. There was a military office in between them.
(Who was in charge there, the civilians or the military?) The military.
(Would you be dispatched to the office of the C.O. for something or other?) First sergeant, mostly. I might have talked to my commander three times in seven years. I mean actually went into his office, stand to attention, salute him and all that other stuff.
(You didn't volunteer for this?) No. Nobody volunteers for it. Not if you're military.
(What kind of background check did they have to do for you to be lucky enough to get this kind of gig?) They do what they call an EBI. You've got NCIs, then you've got background investigations, then you've got top secret security clearance investigations, then you've got EBIs (Extensive Background Investigation). They send people back to talk to your first grade teacher, try to find out if you've ever done drugs, you've got to give them five childhood friends' names and five adult friends' names and five relatives' names. And when they go talk to your friend, they ask for him to give you five names. And when they go talk to your family member, they go 'OK, give me five more family members to talk to'. And of course they do your criminal background, see if you had a DUI (Driving Under the Influence [of alcohol]), had an assault or shot anybody or stole anything, whatever.
(Could you get out of this assignment if you wanted?) No. I tried every month to get out. (How come?) 'Cause I wanted to be an air traffic controller. That plus, in my shop we had nine civilians and eight military. And our shop supervisor was a civilian, and he was, like, an old grouchy fart. He had a ninth grade education and was a dropout. (Describes him further in unflattering detail.)
(What was the supervisor's job?) He was Mechanical Superintendent. He took care of electrical, heating, air conditioning, plumbing, all that stuff.
(What was your daily life like, when there wasn't a crash?) You'd walk in the office and get the list of work orders to go check - okay, temperature's too hot in room A12, or, room's too hot in B13a. And you'd go in there with your little hose meter (vacuum meter) and you'd pop your thermostat off (describes further). When we'd get a call, everybody would get eight tickets. It was supposed to take you an hour to check out what was wrong with the problem. Whether it took you thirty seconds to fix it, you were supposed to work on it for an hour. If you weren't working on it for an hour, you weren't doing your job, you weren't checking enough off. So you'd fix the problem - it might take you ten seconds to a minute, maybe ten minutes - and so you'd sit in the office and you'd talk with the guys. Find out where they were from, how many kids they got, what they were doing, what kind of college education they got. They'd ask me, 'You going to college?', and I'd go 'Yeah, community college of the Air Force right now. Taking electronic engineering. And business management. And so you'd just sit there and talk. And then you'd go onto your next call. And you'd get it fixed, and you'd sit and shoot the ball with whoever was working in that lab or that office...
(Does crash retrieval come up all of a sudden? Is it like an emergency?) Yep. You never knew if you was leaving work, or they'd call you at four A.M., or wake your butt out of bed, and tell you to get to the base in thirty minutes.
(Where did you live?) I lived off-base in Las Vegas, because I was married. (Asked to describe his commute between Las Vegas and base) If it was local, you'd go by blackened-out bus. I was on three different bases in my lifetime. (Describes long bus trips with blacked-out windows, also 737 flights, nicknamed "Janet Air".)
(How many personnel would go out to retrieve a UFO crash?) Between fifty and a hundred, I don't know if the Army was involved.
(And did you ever get a special medal or any kind of jump in pay for doing this?) Oh you'd get Hazardous Duty pay, a hundred and seventy-five dollars a month. One month you'd get it, next month you wouldn't get it. We got four Presidential unit citations, does that count (humour)?
(Seems like you are just asking people to walk into the unknown here!) Yes, but you're in the military...Okay, I asked my Vice Base Commander "Why aren't we getting the Airman's Cross for this?" and he says "Not in your job description (to get a medal for anything you do)". You're on an NBC crew. You're not entitled to get any medals. There's nothing you can do on an NBC crew that's above and beyond the call of duty. Nothing.
(You're asking human beings to do very scary stuff. You could end up in hand-to-hand combat with an alien! When they notify you, you don't know what's on the other side of that crash!) Well, that's true, but when you put on an NBC suit, for example, and you go out an decontaminate a plane, a truck or whatever it is (continues to describe his task, very hot particularly in Nevada!)
(Questioned about when at 4AM he saw a "Janet Air" airliner on approach to Boise City after the "meteor" (spy satellite) crashed.)
(Do you feel that these (alien) entities are hostile?) I think that they're just watching, observing. If they were a threat, they could take you out. If they wanted this planet, they'd take it. They'd already have it. What have you got that's going to stop them? Yeah, lightning or HAARP's the only thing that's going to bring them down. They gotta come from somewhere. Ain't got no bathrooms, no food, no water. There's gotta be a mother ship around, real close.
(Asked about Bull Head City motel manager denying knowledge of "Janet" Airline) I would say that maybe he wasn't there at the time the plane landed. But it landed because Mike (his son) and I both seen it land.
(In the minutes after Riverboat Bob and Frank Costigan saw that glowing blue object land along the side of the Colorado River in Needles, they saw a huge Skycrane helicopter and military units retrieve the object (the spy satellite) and haul it away. Did they know it was coming?) Yep. Well that's what my - I'll call him Bill - he said that they watched it come in and they notified the National Guard and Kangan? and they notified Yuma and the Vegas guys were already up in the air and had it solved because they knew the trajectory. They knew where it was going to hit before it hit. So that's why they were there so fast. They knew when it was coming out of the sky. And when the parachutes didn't open, they knew they had a problem and they activated everybody immediately. And that's why they seen the black ones (personnel) from the Air Force and the ones from Yuma - they're so fast - and the big Skycranes from Kangan come in so quickly.
(Did that satellite have a nuclear reactor on board?) More than likely. All military satellites have some kind of nuclear reactor on board.
(In the hours after that satellite came down, there were units - black SUVs, heavily armed, guys in black camouflage outfits, heavily armed, in Needles, talking to people, making their presence known. Do you know who those might have been?) Would have been - like our 'sister'. I would have been on a crew that would have covered that aircraft, if I would have been in the Air Force. And we used to have a 'sister' group made of LEs, SPs and OSIs that would go out and tell these people 'keep your mouth shut, and if you don't keep your mouth shut, we'll destroy your life.'
LE stands for Law Enforcement (Air Force). You go from SP (Security Police, like guys who go out and guard the planes) to LE (like your local town cops) and then they jump up from there to OSI (Office of Special Investigations, like criminal investigation units).
(And they would come into civilian areas with armed units?) Oh yeah. I'm sure they did. (And would they be carrying badges?) No. Not allowed to carry ID. We had to take all our patches off when we went on an NBC mission. The only thing you carried was your rank, on your hat.
(How far back do the NBC units go? Why do you think they were started?) Fifties (1950s). (So that in 1965, in Kecksburg, Pennsylvania, when a very similar object came down, would an NBC unit be (have been) dispatched to retrieve that?) Yeah, would have been an army NBC though. They're closest. Whoever's closest gets there first. (More detail.)
(Are wealthy people like Bob Bigelow who are working on propulsion systems in the loop on this technology? Where do you think information about how these things run is going?) (Viper lists major aerospace companies previously mentioned, then asks about whether Bob Lazar works for any of them.)
(Apart from the religion and chaos issues, why do you think all this knowledge is hidden from the American science community and the public, whose taxes pay for it?) They're (the top scientists) working at Groom Lake, they're working at Papoose Lake, they're working at Edwards AFB...
(I'm fearful that this information only goes to the highest bidder, and find it astounding that you seem to have lived such an interesting life and the world goes to sleep every night not knowing that this goes on.) Well, I don't know what percentage of the academic community believe it, and I don't know what percentage would believe it if you showed it to them. I don't know. If I took a hundred people into Papoose Lake and showed them the nine hangars, how many would believe what was in them hangars? And when you left, how many would say "I now believe in UFOs"? Eighty percent? And the other twenty percent say "Oh, no, that's something that Lockheed built, that's their aerocar." That's like Kevin on your guys' show. I love his scepticism, but to me, had he joined the military and used his mechanical engineering degree and got zipped to Papoose Lake or Groom Lake or Edwards where he got introduced to these things, then maybe he wouldn't be so sceptical.
(Do you know anything about what happens to the (ET) bodies?) All I know is that they go to New York (State?). That's all.
(Can you describe the atmosphere? Were people afraid? Was it 'business as usual' at Papoose Lake among the enlisted personnel and civilians?) It was exciting. Everyone was hyped up. What new are we going to find out? How can we make this work? It's like when you're a little kid and you get a Tinker Toy or you get Lego's (toy bricks). How can we build this? How can we tear this apart and put it back together? It was an electrifying atmosphere. Everybody loved their job. Everybody wanted to get their hands and feet in, one hundred percent.
(Has anybody ever taken any bits and pieces from these pieces and put them in their pockets?) You can try, like I did, but when you get caught you lose a stripe (laughs). Oh, I'm sure there's a lot of souvenirs out there.
(Do you think that if someone studied the souvenirs, they could tell it's not made here?) Okay, who's going to be the person that tells you it wasn't made here? You can send it to ten different labs, get ten results; all ten of them look the same, but who's going to to say it wasn't made here? To me, I don't know. They look like aluminum, feel like aluminum, but they're too light weight to be aluminum. But they look like polished stainless steel. And if you've ever seen polished stainless steel, it's very, very heavy. Even a thick piece of aluminum's heavy.
(Since you've left the service, have you ever seen anything in the outside world that you say to yourself "Jeez, that looks real familiar. I think I might have picked that up twenty years ago."?) (Laughs) It just seems like being at Groom Lake, the technology there...we're getting now. For example, look at the carbon fibre. When I first got there, the big secrecy was the 117 (Lockheed F-117 Nighthawk stealth fighter). Then a couple years later it was the B-2 (military bomber). Now they're into the pulse engine aircraft. You look at the technology from the 117. Now look at the Navy. Navy's building their ships out of the same thing that the Air Force flies their planes with. All high performance race cars use carbon fibre.
(I was thinking about Apple technology where titanium or something like that...) To me it's awfully funny that you get a government group like NASA that hands somebody like Intel "Here, we want you to build this little transistor, or this little diode, this microchip, and this is how we want you to build it, and this is the parameters you get to build it." They give them the plans to build it, and all of a sudden Intel goes from a nowhere company to this mega-billion corporation overnight, for building a chip. And then you get another company that's super-rich, for building a diode. And another company super-rich for building these tiny transistors. How come all these companies suddenly exploded from NASA's saying "Hey, we don't need these big heavy electric switches in here, we want something that's a quarter-inch long." Where'd they get the idea that Uncle Sam's or NASA's ships them the paperwork, ships them the designs and everything else, and now NASA says "You guys design it, build it, keep the patents for it and ship it back to us. How's that supposed to be? Is that fair to everybody in the world?
(Tell me about Bob Lazar. You brought up his name. What do you know about him?) All the guys that worked on (the crashed UFOs) - the electrical engineers, the mechanical engineers, the metallurgists - the guys in the shop - we used to call them "the freaks", you know, because freaks and geeks go together. Instead of geeks working on computers, they were working on the freaky stuff. We always used to call, you know, like the F-117 was a "Wobbly Goblin" [due to its alleged instability at low speeds] and the B-2 was "The Bat", this stuff we picked up was freaky stuff. We didn't know where it come from, we didn't care where it come from - it was just "freaky". So, the people that worked on it were called "the freaks". And he (Bob Lazar) was one of the freaks that worked there.
(Did you see him (Bob Lazar) there?) I seen somebody who looked like him, but I personally did not know Bob. From photos I've seen of him, he's kind of like Tom. He put out a picture of what the inside of Papoose might look like, which was actually a pretty good rendering, and he showed how each bay had an aircraft or whatever, but he said no, this one is the one where a missile went through, but it wasn't a missile; that one got hit by lightning. And now is one of the ones that we picked up. Now one was in Bay 9; that was the one we picked up in New Mexico.
(Bob Lazar talked about a certain element called element 115 and he described this incredible scene where he was looking through a room and someone tells him 'Watch a candle flickering in the room'. And the candle stopped flickering and you wonder what froze the candle. And the implication was that whatever it was that made the candle stop moving, slowed down or stopped time. Did you ever hear of an element 115?) No, but I heard of stopping time. Didn't know it was called 115. (I heard about it) from one of the officers. There was this heavy-set guy. He couldn't be in his office unless it was, like sixty-two degrees. He worked for Lockheed. He had told me about it. We ended up being very good friends until he passed away. He just says "We know how to stop time." That was all. It wasn't a project he was working on. He was actually working on what he called the "mad magnetic engines". He said they were like big magnets inside, but they were like antigravity engines. When you energized them, whatever created an gravity or magnetic effect, these engines opposed it and would push away the other way. And that's why these craft would go from zero to nine thousand (miles an hour?) in 3.1 seconds or faster.
(Did anyone ever explain how these things managed to overcome things like friction, air resistance, things like that?) No.
(That would be an incredible G force!) You look at F-16 pilots now. They got that positive oxygen ventilation system they wear, they can do low-level 12-gee turns now. (Goes into more detail.) It's not like these 200-300 gee these spacecraft do. I don't know. There I'd have to say...if you're inside one, you don't have that gravitational force pulling on you.
(So you say that it's in kind of an envelope or bubble?) Yep. That's the best way I could have explained it.
(You're retired and medically retired, right?) Yep. (What kind of hobbies have you got? What do you do these days for fun?) Fish and woodwork, play with my grandkids. (Are you planning on telling them what you told us, if they ask?) If they should ask? (Do you feel that this is information that they should know? I'm still concerned about your safety and health in telling us this stuff.) I've already been warned once by 'em. I was in a hospital in Sioux Falls and I had some guys come to me and tell me I was going to lose my VA benefits if I talked about it in the hospital any more, so...I mean, this is the first time in fifteen years I publicly talked about it, so.. People around me know I believe in UFOs, only because, you know, I've seen 'em. You can believe in them or not believe in them; that's up to you.
(You said something very intriguing. You dropped a little hint when you said you actually tried to keep a piece when you were retrieving. And you lost a stripe. How did you try to keep the piece, and how did they find out?) I was just out there picking up pieces and there was a small piece about an inch and a half long and about an inch wide and it had these weird markings on it. I thought, (it) looked like a structural wing to me, kinda like an I-beam type thing. I just picked it up and put it in my pocket, and someone seen me put it in my pocket, and when I went to get on the bus, the captain was holding his hand out. "Can I have that piece of metal you picked up?" And I handed it to him and I was a staff sergeant no more, I was a sergeant. never got my stripe back - got out as an E4.
(We are going to send this to Tom Carey, Air Force officer, Kevin Randall, and I'm also going to send it to George Knapp, and what I'm hoping is...) So I was right about Tom Carey (chuckles) (...and what I'm hoping is they would love to have a Q & A with you. You could come back on the air and obviously no one's going to know your real identity, who you are. And what I know is that they're going to have more specific Air Force-related questions than I can ask, simply because I wasn't in the Air Force. So what I'm hoping is that you come back and do a story with us on UFO Magazine or something like that. But that's in the future.) Just give me a couple of weeks. I can come here.
(You don't sound like you're easily shaken but I think you must be the bravest man in the world, so I do appreciate what you're saying and doing.) Trust me, back then I was scared to death. Back then, you were in the unknown. Plus, being in the service, (if) you want to hold onto your stripes and feed your family, you're done as you're told. You don't question what you're told. People won't ask you "Why would you do something crazy like that?" Because you were told to do it. You were ordered to do it, and you did what you were ordered to do. It's not because I was brave or I was nuts or whatever, it's just something that you did because you were told to do it, and you was in the service, and it's part of being in the service. Just following orders.
(What are your ailments right now? Are they military, i.e., are they work-related?) Well, they have me as a service-connected disability due to a skin condition (describes it). (Have you told the doctors about the NBC unit that you were part of?) They requested my records and were told, "Just treat him and don't worry what he did in the Air Force." I sat in my doctor's office while he argued with them and said "Look, I gotta know what he was exposed to. How am I supposed to treat him if I don't know what he was exposed to?" It's like the civilians back in the nineties that were dying left and right. They all filed lawsuits, and ??? [the military] claims "Oh-oh, Groom Lake's top secret. We can't let information out." A lot of chemicals they had there, that were 'weird'. They burned a lot of stuff there that was 'weird'.
(Have you kept in touch wih any of the guys you went out on these crash retrievals with?) Yes, that's the ones that still live in Las Vegas. (And are any of them sick as well?) Yes. We all have the same ailments. Charlie's worse than me. He's had about three or four cancer, like, chemo treatment things. He gets his nasty - they call it Agent Orange - syndrome. It's like the guys who come from Vietnam, you know, it's pretty much the same symptoms - big sores, the rashes, he can't sleep at night, night sweats...
(Were you unhealthy when you went into the Air Force?) No, I was like a rock, I played football, baseball, basketball. I could run twenty miles.
(Have you been to VA centres to try to get help for your skin rashes, etc.?) Yes, they sent me all over the country (lists centres and mentions specialists).
(Did you ever suffer from radiation poisoning?) My (radiation) badge never changed color. I was never called into the office for my badge being too radioactive. But I look at the radiation symptoms and stuff. (Of) course, back then they used to give us iodine. That might have kept the radiation sickness away, or down, or whatever...The Air Force likes to medicate you whether you want it or not.
(Well thank you very much. We've had an amazing response in the chat room. I think everybody's questions have been answered. It's just gripping and I think you're an American hero. And we're going to get you back (explains).) I'm not one of those that believe they (ETs) are hostile. (No, I'm worried about the American government coming and knowing this information). I'd be more worried about them shutting down your show than shutting me down. (It's too late now! It's after the fact. Viper, thanks for being here.)
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Showing 2 comments (from the web page). [My comment: I believe Viper is genuine, so don't agree with the comments below.]
Guest [Moderator] 1 week ago
Very leery of this guy's story, he really pauses each time he is asked a specific question such as about the appearance of a particular craft. Then he speaks in generalities and even changes the subject at times. Also he seems very reluctant to admit he knows nothing of a particular subject, such as when asked about Bob Lazar and stopping time. On that matter he says basically yeah, someone mentioned it to me. When pressed for details about what they told him he says "that they could stop time." I'm sorry but if someone told you or me that we would have all kinds of questions for them and would be able to give a better description of such a conversation. When led even a little with suggestions about how the crafts might have crashed he seemed to agree with those theories too quickly and even when his opinion differed he still did not sound sure. And lastly when asked about if he had ever seen Bob Lazar there instead of just saying "no" which is completely believable, he says he may have seen someone who looked like him. Again another example of his reluctance to appear as if he does not know something which to me is a classic indication of someone who is making things up. Do I think he may have worked at Nellis? Sure. Do I think he participated in the retrievals he spoke of? No.
Shinboep [Moderator] 1 week ago
I do not buy it. He speaks as if he is making it up as he goes along. He does not sound as if he is going by recall. No recounting of detail as though from memory. Too bad I was looking forward to hearing an insider interview.
str8thinker
12th March 2011, 05:25
Transcript of Tom Carey Examines The Viper
(Tom begins talking at about 30 minutes into the show.)
[Tom] I was convinced beyond reasonable doubt that he was a fabricator. If you interview enough people on one subject (this being the Roswell incident that I'm most familiar with) your antennae go up when someone like this comes along...[who was] in position in locations where this story took place so they know the background lay-of-the-land, so to speak, and what they do is simply plug themselves into the story, knowing that they will be able to answer questions about the locations and people, etc. but not actually having participated themselves.
With Viper I'm at a disadvantage because I don't see him, I don't know what he looks like, I don't know his mannerisms, so I can't compare his physical appearance with the way he conducts himself. But in listening to Viper it reminded me of another Roswell witness who ... turned out to be a phony.
I have no doubts in my mind that he was employed at Nellis [Air Force Base]. I'm not sure that he was in the Air Force, for several reasons. He was either employed in the military but [there is] also the equal possibility that he was a civilian out there.
Right away I thought he was too casual in his discussions, just way too casual for me. That's not my experience with someone who actually has information to tell. They're not that casual.
One of the other things was that in interviewing hundreds and hundreds of people and talking to, literally, thousands about the Roswell incident, the ones that are legit are rarely people that come forward and seek us out...
([I]Do you think that people who are "the real thing" ever come forward with their stories?) If they haven't by now, no, they will never come forward. And usually what I get is, when I find them, usually the first thing they ask is, "How did you find me?"...My experience is that the ones that do come forward, like Viper, of their own volition, usually turn out to be bogus.
(Nancy: Viper originally wrote to me a few different times...basically to correct us as we were talking about, say, Area 51...And he simply wanted to say, "You guys kinda sound foolish when you say 'Area 51'. That's almost Hollywood. It really isn't called that." So he wrote a few times. And I evaluate people based on their writing, because I'm an editor and I know writing very very well...That's how I was introduced personally to Viper. I'd never met him. Not on the phone, but through his writing, and his writing had a 'ring of reality' to it. He wasn't really trying to get attention. He simply - almost in a frustrated way - said "You people are trying to do some good." He didn't say that, but that was the undertone...And then he said, in about the third or fourth email, when I hadn't written back [I was too busy], "If you ever want to talk about some stuff, I was there." And he gave his number. That's how we got in touch with him...) It sounds to me still like he was coming forward. He initiated the contact. (That's correct.)
He initiated the contact and that's exactly how Gerald Anderson, a known Roswell hoaxer, said he was at the crash site as a five year old [discusses this].
(Nancy: The way I see it...it didn't strike me as a call for notoriety but more or less, maybe someone has just, after a long life, just gotten tired of the misinformation that gets out there and just basically wanted to correct the Area 51 thing. That's how it all started. [Bill:] Remember, his big attitude was that Kevin Cook [not Kevin Randall] was being too skeptical in his reference to Area 51 but in fact, he [Viper] said there is no Area 51 officially, it's Groom Lake and Papoose Lake. He said "I was there at Papoose Lake inside the mountain", and that's what piqued my attention. 'Cause he really made references to that and comparing that to Dulce. [Viper said] "Inside the mountain and I can tell you what went on", and what went on was so similar to Bob Lazar's story that I was really curious. Tom, what aspects of his story bothered you as well?)
[Tom] I don't know if it was a Freudian slip, or what, but you had asked him what was the setup inside the facility there? And he said "Well...there's the military side, and there's the civilian side." And he refers to them as "us civilians...us civilian flunkies."
You had asked him, did he try to steal a piece of the wreckage from one of his retrievals and he said yes, he put a little piece in his pocket...and as he was leaving, one of the officers said "Okay, let's have it." And he took the piece out of his pocket, gave it to the officer and [admitting to repercussions] said "Yes, I lost a stripe." And he had said that he was a staff sergeant. And a staff sergeant has four stripes. Having been in the Air Force myself, one thing you are aware of is pay rates. Rank and pay rates, that's what you're interested in! So he said "I lost a stripe" and you said "Well, that means you're not a staff sergeant any more. What were you?" And he said, "Just a sergeant." Well, that's absolutely false, because a three-striper, which is what I was...I was an airman first class, I think they call them senior airmen now. There's no such thing as just a sergeant in the Air Force. My ears perked up at that because there's no way a person who's in the Air Force - if I did my calculations correctly, he was in [for] seven years, 1977-84 from what I figured out.
(I should mention here that Viper is actually on the chat [chat room forum to answer questions] so he has said here that he was an E5 [and] dropped to an E4. Does that ring any bells?) I think E4 is staff sergeant and that E5 should be tech sergeant - five stripes.
(Bill: Okay, so there's an issue between whether he was a staff sergeant losing a stripe to go to three stripes, or a tech sergeant losing a stripe to go to staff sergeant...E stands for enlisted. The great thing about this is we're trying to deal in facts, and that's the fun part. Let Tom make his points, save up Viper's questions, then hit those at 7.30. So, Tom, why don't you continue?)
[Tom] Okay, so those were the things that after the [my] first hearing of the show I jotted down, that struck me. I can't address the crash sites because my forte is among the Roswell case. I don't know the others. I think someone like Kevin Randall could address those better than I.
(Bill: The forum raised serious doubts as to whether an F-4 Phantom jet, even doing manoevers on Red Flag operations, could crash into the tail end of a flying saucer. What is your reaction to that?) I found that hard to believe. I don't know the technology. It would seem to me there would be some sort of avoidance mechanism, at least on the UFO part, to avoid something like that. But that's just speculation. What I would have done if I was investigating it is to find out if there was an F-4 crash somewhere where he said it was, and if it was publicized in the newspaper, and if it took place.
(Viper was saying that the aircraft came from the 67th Recon (Reconaissance) Wing.) I'm sure he was at Groom Lake, at Papoose Lake, and does know the terrain, the territory, who was where, you know what I mean. I'm sure he does know that. The question I have is whether he was actually part of a HAZMAT [HAZardous MATerials] team that goes to air crashes and cleans up any potentially hazardous waste. That's what it sounds like to me.
(The other famous person who talked about that was of course Clifford Stone, who said he was in an Army NBC team, and he went into great detail about how the NBC...And although Cliff Stone was a friend, and although we interviewed him...nice guy, sweet guy...he's the guy who talked about what working on an NBC team was like on a regular basis.) I know Cliff, I don't know him well, but when we go to Roswell we run into him often. I know he's done a lot of work on the documents, as far as the early UFO situation...We questioned, talking among ourselves [Kevin, Don Schmitt and myself] whether Cliff actually took part in these retrievals...
(He [Cliff] also raised the issue of UFOs in Vietnam, which I know that Don Acker was specifically pretty skeptical about.) Yes. Let me ask you, Bill and Nancy, is there any documentation that can be followed regarding Viper that can place him where he says he was?
(Bill: Question one has been logged. Next question?) When did he leave the service, and why, and what has he been doing since? Those are the two main questions I have. I would love to see his DD214. Without that I don't have much to go on other than his story. He tells it very well. Listening to it the second time he sounded very cogent, to be honest with you...And he still has friends there [at Nellis]. Is there anyone that can corroborate his story?
(Bill: I found so many correspondences between things he said about things Earl Fulford had said that he [Viper] reminded me of, and the other thing was not just Earl Fulford but Walter Haupt [The PIO(public information officer)of the Roswell base in 1947,the man who composed the first news release, stating that the Air Force had the debris of a flying saucer, that had crashed on Mac Brazel's ranch]. Walter Haupt never even saw the actual bodies - Walter Haupt said that he saw the bodies in the body bags, that was in his affidavit - and that it was Blanchard [Colonel William "Butch" Blanchard, a key player in the recovery of the Roswell disk and developing the cover-up conspiracy] who held up his hand to say how high [height of ETs] they were, and those were the bodies that left Roswell. That's in the new book "Witness to Roswell". And the other issue was that, [Viper] pocketing a piece of the "memory metal"...Remember we were at the site that Fulford took us to (this was on UFOHunters) and we specifically asked Fulford, "Did anybody on that grid search policing the area take any of the memory metal?" And Earl said - there were MPs all over the place keeping an eye on everyone picking up the memory metal - that you would be in a whole world of trouble (that was 1947) if you were caught pocketing any of that memory metal, 'cause they were there with the gunny sacks, holding them by the trucks. I have to say that was a very similar story.)
[Tom] Yes, yes. I've heard different stories, that they had wheelbarrows or drop points where they would empty the gunny sacks. They're very similar [stories] and I guess they would be. [Returning to Viper's account] The question is, did he actually take part in these retrievals? It's the most difficult type of witness to verify without further corroboration from others that you can ask questions to [of], or documentation that will place him in the right place. My experience is that whenever I get a witness whose story I can't verify - every avenue seems to be closed - then we're talking about the sort of thing that probably didn't happen.
(Nancy: You've done twenty years of research into this [Roswell], do you think it's possible that it's so commonplace that there's more than one person like Viper, that there are many, many crashes? Is Roswell just one of many crashes?) To believe all these crashes, it must be raining UFOs, and I just don't buy that. The Roswell crash made national headlines...Viper says he was at eight crashes. That's a lot of crashes in a short period of time (seven years). I don't recall any of them making the newspaper or the television. You would think that the law of averages would have crashed in an area where a number of civilians saw it.
(Bill: Well, let's take one specific case. The reason the Roswell crash made headlines was that Walter Haupt released the statement to the press.) The reason they released the story was that they knew civilians had been there...and were aware. The story went around Roswell in twenty minutes.
(Bill now describes the 1993 crash of an alleged UFO at South Haven Park near Brookhaven National Labs: Here's a classic case where there was a crash, where people were turned away from it, the government denied it, the people who were supposed to be there denied it, and it has faded into history. So I can see how that could happen if there were crashes that were scattered.) The difference between [that and] Roswell was that the Government admit the military were unprepared for something like that. It [the govt] had no plans in place for containing the story. The modern UFO age only began two weeks previously. So it made the national headlines because people wanted to know. Was this Russian or German technology? There was a curiosity already out there. Today, the Government and the Air Force position is [that] there are no such things as [UFOs]...there are such things as UFOs but they do not come from another planet. So you have stories like Phoenix [Phoenix Lights, 1997], which is a good case, the one in Texas [Stephenville, Texas, 2008] a few years ago. They just fade away because nothing ever comes of them that is concrete, that you can put your fingers on. The case you just mentioned [Brookhaven], this is the first time I'm hearing about it. It never made news down this way...It seems that even eight UFO crashes, for me, is pushing the limit. But eight in seven years, especially in the south-west, I would have expected someone of a civilian nature to stumble across it [one of the crashes] before the military got there.
(Nancy: What if these crashes are consistently over military bases, test sites, places where...Let's say Roswell happened because of our nuclear capability, it wasn't just a big accident, it was [because] they were checking our capability or they were stuck into [investigating] our radar, some version thereof?) We get that question all the time. If you're coming from Zeta Reticuli or wherever and you're heading for Earth, where would you want to go to check up on things, and our answer is always New Mexico, if it's 1947, and Bill knows the answer, it's because that's where the rocketry is tested, it's where the first atomic bomb was detonated, it's where the nuclear labs are, that's where I would go.
(Bill: Sure. In 1945, supposedly, there were UFOs spotted over Hanford [on the Columbia River in Washington State], where uranium was being enriched for atomic weapons tests and bombs that we dropped on Japan. Nancy: Moving into the seventies.. let's say by now we are doing a lot of stuff with material we retrieved from Roswell, we've begun the modern age of reverse engineering, we're moving farther along, our radar's becoming more sophisticated...Let's say that it's like a honey trap, it's where the UFOs are, so in seven, eight years maybe that's where all the stuff is happening and it's all very private. It's not private industry but it is private. That whole area is very vast and isolated for a reason.) When you have enough data to work with, then you can start to make correlations, conclusions. UFO crashes, at least in my mind, are so infrequent, or have been, that it's tough to make any conclusion as to (a) why it crashed, and (b) why it crashed where it did. That's really difficult, but if there are a lot of alleged crashes... I guess Kevin Randall has at least two books out on that. He rates them as 'most likely' and 'least likely'. I would have to defer to him because I haven't studied all of them like he has, and I think his 'most likely' list comes down to just a very few.
(Bill: Multiplicity of witnesses, witnesses corroborating one another's stories..) The Phoenix Lights had so many witnesses, and the same with Stephenville, but yet I am surprised they have faded , they did not move the phenomenon forward. I thought there would be a bigger reaction than there was because there were so many witnesses that saw something that was truly anomalous in the sky, and it's almost as if, people now... unless you have the [UFO] hardware to show, it's just - 'so what?'
([I]Nancy: When something big like that happens, I think the government's response is in direct proportion to the fear that goes across the country like a wave. If there's a big fear, the government's very quick to say 'No, it was a weather balloon, it was an [temperature] inversion, it was a...') 'A flight of plovers.' (Yeah. And people want to buy it, they want to say 'Thank God'. And I think the government do that on purpose. I think it's to keep people calm and happy. Because the flip side is...) They also do not want to admit that they're not in control of their own skies. The military mission is to protect us, and if you can't control the area given to you in your mission, then you're not going to get promoted [laughs], and stuff like that. So there are a lot of things going on as far as why they've taken the approach they have. But I always say, they are playing with fire, because who's to say that one will not land on the White House lawn tomorrow? Or land at Yankee Stadium? Something like that? 'Cause they are taking a big chance [that] something like that will not happen.
(Nancy: If you talk to 'deeply weird' people, people who are so deeply into the rabbit hole in this thing that they're not saying [how far in they are], they will tell you that in fact the aliens have made pacts with the government that they've agreed they won't land on the White House lawn if they can abduct people with impunity. Now whether that's a true story or not...) I stay away from that, Nancy, that is definitely not my area. I'm a strict 'nuts and bolts' type investigator.
(What do you do, Tom, when you meet people who are absolutely sincere, and you might know them for years..?) I have met people like that. I met a fellow when I used to run the MUFON meetings in South Eastern Pennsylvania ten [to] fifteen years ago. He was from Oklahoma and was a first hand witness to Bigfoot in Oklahoma [http://www.oklahomabigfoot.org/] and he told me a story that he ran into Bigfoot in an abandoned railroad spur [dead end branch line] in Oklahoma [describes the encounter]. I'm looking at him in the eye when he's telling this and I'm saying 'This fellow is telling me the truth'. At least that's how it looked to me. He never tried to make any big deal out of it, he just said "Well, that's what happened."
(Nancy: We have people they we consider friends and they believe they've been abducted by aliens, in many cases [throughout] their whole lives.) I have just not done enough research on that. Bill knows that the UFO phenomenon is so wide that you have to pick what interests you the most, and for me it's the Roswell case. (Bill: In any episodic event (e.g., serial killings) it's usually the earliest occurrences of that event that usually yield the most evidence closest to the surface, because whoever wants to cover up that event can't go back in time to cover it up. In the Roswell case the government hadn't yet figured out what it wanted to do.) They didn't have their act together, but they do today. They had procedures in place for an atomic accident down in Roswell, 'cause that's where they had the atomic bomb stored...so they implemented what they already knew about how to contain stories, not about UFOs but about an accident - they applied that to the Roswell case. It worked for thirty years, but it's been leaking ever since, and they had to employ thuggish behavior to enforce the silence of the civilians and even some of the military. But it wasn't totally successful in that it leaked for a long time before it even broke with [Major] Jesse Marcel [the head intelligence officer, at Roswell Army Air Field in 1947] thirty years later. This is why we believe Disclosure - which was going to take place when Obama reaches office - IS NOT GOING TO HAPPEN.
(Bill: The one procedure the Army and Air Force had for the Japanese balloon bombs that were coming over [1944-45], according to the folks in the CIA now revealing this, some of these bombs contained biological weapons (WMDs) and the legitimate purpose of the Department of War for keeping these secret was, why would you announce where a Japanese balloon bomb's landing, to tell the Japanese how successful they were and...) To keep sending them over!
(Bill: And there were people in Indiana who were getting diseases based on the biological agents inside these balloon bombs. They [Japanese] were successful in some of their attacks...we didn't know where the Japanese stood on nuclear weapons (they'd been sharing secrets with the Germans)...and the scary thing is, because we allowed newspapers to reveal the locations, they just sent these over in droves and they began to inflict serious civilian casualties. [more discussion]) Don't let them know they've [Japanese] been successful with one because that will encourage them to send more and more.
(Bill: And that story you [Tom] told [about children in Oregon killed by Japanese balloon bombs] was used in training CIA agents about the necessity of cover-ups when not revealing information to the enemy.) You know the old saying: if you want to keep something secret from your enemies, you also have to keep it secret from your friends. (Bill: Exactly. And that's the only procedure the government had in dealing with the Roswell crash.) Yes. They knew the story was out there, and so they had to put out that phony press release about a crash up there near Corona, to take away the focus from the more important part of the crash, which was just north of town. That was never mentioned in the press release, what we call the impact site, where the rest of the ship finally landed. And that was orchestrated from Washington - we suspected it, but Walter Haupt confirmed it. We're still investigating Roswell. [describes further evidence]
(Bill and Nancy discuss Tom's forthcoming book "Beneath the Radar: UFO secrets at Wright-Patterson".)
(Bill: Now, the sixty-four thousand dollar question again, is, if there was material at Wright-Patterson ([previously] Wright Field) all the way back from 1947 forward, where is it now?) That's a good question. We know that the bodies were loaned around. Viper's suggestion was that they were taken to Brookhaven. I've never heard of that as a repository for bodies of that sort, but that's just my opinion. (Bill: I did ask the man who wrote the J. D. Salinger story in a prior issue - whose name is John Augustine - he did say that he was a non-official cover agent in the CIA and that Brookhaven was in fact a repository for UFO material.) [Tom] Well! (Bill: I was stunned when he [Viper?] said "You're on the right trail, but you're gonna get shut down.")
(Bill: What about Eglin Air Force Base, cryogenic chambers there?) There are three Air Force Bases in Florida - Eglin, McGill and Homestead. (Bill: Homestead is where Jackie Gleason said Richard Nixon took him to see the body of the alien.) Yes. We also have witness testimony that some of the wreckage from Roswell was flown to a base in Florida. So if anybody is saying something and it's going on in one of those bases in Florida, I'm not offended by it.
(Bill: ...Jackie Gleason was dead serious about it, there was not one iota of humor on his face, and his wife [Barbara] said that it affected Jackie so seriously it changed his life.) I've located his wife and I've yet to interview her...Jackie was really into UFOs and he had a home in Florida that was shaped like a flying saucer, as I understand it, and he was good friends with Nixon and there are pictures of Nixon and Jackie golfing down there.)
[Tom then describes an incident involving Gordon MacRae, actor [1921-1986], whose wife Sheila claimed on a talk show after he died that he was one of the guards at Wright-Patterson guarding alien bodies on a wooden pallet. Further discussion regarding this and other matters until the show ends.]
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