Census 2011 - UK

[jasontorque]

Today, I received the above through my letterbox. Failure to respond suggests a fine of up to £1000. I find the whole thing an intrusion, especially as I have read the data is being collected by US Defense Contractor Lockheed-Martin to process.

Whilst I suspect not, does anyone have any advice in terms of mechanisms to avoid this legally.

This is just the sort of thing which raises my dander!

[Jayke]

I know what you mean Jason, the lawful rebellion (http://www.lawfulrebellion.org/2011/02/22/2011-census-rebellion/) website are advising people to just attach a no contract - return to sender on the envelope and pop it back in the post, although i'm not sure how the government will respond to this yet. One option i'm tempted to do is just throw it away and if anyone comes knocking just say it never showed up, or fill it in with made up information if you want to avoid any hassle...I'm still weighing up my options and i'll decide what to do when it arrives.
Apparantly last time it was done over 1 million people never returned it and only 36 or something received a fine for failing to do so.

[grapevine]

I have no advice for you Jasontorque, except that we're all in the same boat in the UK and the entire population will have to fill in the form or risk the fine.

It is interesting to note that my mother, who is interested in genealogy - studied the previous census that was available online a few years ago, which gave information about people being born at the turn of last century. Not to put too fine a line on it, it seems that quite a lot of our ancestors lied, so it was difficult to find out anything. We think, although we don't know for sure because they've all gone now, it is because more people were ashamed of more things in those days. ie. unmarried mothers, for instance, were often sent away to the country to give birth, or put in homes indefinitely. But also my great grandfather, who we all thought to be a carpenter, had listed his occupation as plumber .....

But you're right, these forms are intrusive and so are the others like the one from the Council asking who's living in the house, ostensibly for voting purposes. That also carries a fine for non-compliance.

[aikya]

I believe this is a contract, and can be declined as such. A contract can't be imposed. I'm going to look into it.

[Fina]

Jason- I read someone making the comment that they were planning to either spend the night in a tent, or in their car, so technically there would be nobody staying overnight in the house, so no requirement to fill in the form...

[777]

Taken from the Census 2011 FAQ:

27. What will happen to my information?

"Your answers will be turned into statistics about the community and groups within it. Personal census information is kept confidential for 100 years and is not shared with government departments."

The reality:

27. What will happen to my information?

"Your answers will be filed onto mobile data storage devices and haphazardly scattered across public transport and the community. Personal census information is sold non-confidentially to the highest bidder over the next 100 years but isn't shared with other government departments as it will almost definately have been lost"

[jasontorque]

Thank you all for your comments. In searching the forum I noticed that there were a couple of threads appearing about this previously, which a Moderator might wish to combine as I feel it is very relevant information to all, especially if you reside in the UK.

http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?14710-The-UK-2011-Census-is-here.-Run-by-Lockheed-Martin%21&highlight=census

http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?15458-Boycott-the-2011-UK-census&highlight=census

My apologies for any duplication.

[linz2d]

Its not the actual census that bothers me as I have nothing to hide although it will be hard to specify what kind of belief system I belong to. The thing that gets me interested is that so much money is being put into this, for example up here in Scotland, councils are a paying very well to deliver these form. Each of these distributors has to go through an interview, they are then given their own mobile/cell which they carry around on delivery and before they begin delivery they have to phone their team leader. Also the extremely high fine for not filling in the form is basically a threat telling us that there are no ifs and buts, we all have to fill this in. I have worked as a postman before and find it very strange that the government is going to such lengths and spending such an amount of money to make sure that the census gets delivered, because the Royal Mail does handled council forms and important documents daily. And even stranger I here that America is going through a similar census.

[jasontorque]

It will be very interesting to see how vigorous these private distributors / enforcement officers will be. I once had a debate with one of these gentlemen at my front door, pursuing me rather insistently regarding the usual Council Tax forms. I explained that I had already sent in the form, which he said that they had not received, that I would not be completing it again, reminded him that he was on private property and it was rather inappropriate for strangers to arrive unannounced and that he could continue the conversation with my dogs if he was not satisfied with the answers which I had already provided.

[the trojan]

I saw this link on another forum.The link at the bottom will take you to a page with various human rights cases of which the wording below belongs.
This appears just after halfway down the page.


Regina -v- Dyment (1988) 45 CCC (3d) 244
1988
CCC
La Forest J
Human Rights
Casemap
1 Citers
The court referred to "informational privacy" - "This notion of privacy derives from the assumption that all information about a person is in a fundamental way his own, for him to communicate or retain for himself as he sees fit."

http://www.swarb.co.uk/lisc/HumRi19851989.php

[jasontorque]

Thank you Trojan. I wonder if the validity or basis for this legal argument has been tested in the UK in recent years. It would be very empowering to hear from any lawyers in our midst. I really do think it important to get your facts in place if you are going to make a stand.

[DevilPigeon]

Mine came today too, but I haven't opened it....

There's only me living here, I have no idea who 'THE OCCUPIER' is! Must be the previous tennant... :p

[ScubaMonkey]

Unfortunately there is not a way of getting out of it legally. It all comes down to how rigorous they are enforcing it. I've been thinking about it and I'm going to fill it in due to the amount of hassle it can cause otherwise. My thinking?

1) Using an article 8 of the Convention on Human Rights defence would be a very long, complicated and costly battle with poor prospects of success.
2) If I loose I get a Magistrates' Court Fine.
3)If I don't pay the fine I get a visit from a bailiff who slaps hundreds in fees on & can force entry to my home to take my stuff
4)If I do get past the bailiff problem and still don't pay... Prison.

It's called them having you by the short and curlys
:ballchain:

[jasontorque]

Thank you ScubaMonkey. It really does put a great deal of the material which Jordan Maxwell cites into perspective. We are not free by any stretch of the imagination and unless significant numbers of people take a stand and refuse to comply, more of our liberties will be dissolved.

[mondaze]

i plan to fill mine in in latin. maybe add a few mandarin pictograms in for light relief. Failing that i shall ask for an urdu interpretor. i believe in compliance at all times!

[Adrift]

There's a great link - found via the David Icke forum - to a letter at the TPUC website that might be of interest jasontorque:

http://www.tpuc.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=60&t=29456

[MariaDine]

Hello Friends !

Here in Portugal, the Census is also in motion. It happens every ten years. We also have a fine betwenn 250 e 3.740 euros .

http://www.jornaldenegocios.pt/home.php?template=SHOWNEWS_V2&id=471843

Namasté

[Lord Sidious]

Unfortunately there is not a way of getting out of it legally. It all comes down to how rigorous they are enforcing it. I've been thinking about it and I'm going to fill it in due to the amount of hassle it can cause otherwise. My thinking?

1) Using an article 8 of the Convention on Human Rights defence would be a very long, complicated and costly battle with poor prospects of success.
2) If I loose I get a Magistrates' Court Fine.
3)If I don't pay the fine I get a visit from a bailiff who slaps hundreds in fees on & can force entry to my home to take my stuff
4)If I do get past the bailiff problem and still don't pay... Prison.

It's called them having you by the short and curlys
:ballchain:

And you know this how?
You have tried?
Please, if you don't know, say so, don't make statements as if you do know.
I don't do census, pay tax, vote or any of the other things that are ''compulsory'' as I am not a legal entity.
If they can make my artificial legal entity complete the forms, all the more power to them.


There's a great link - found via the David Icke forum - to a letter at the TPUC website that might be of interest jasontorque:

http://www.tpuc.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=60&t=29456

From what I can see, this is an excellent conditional exceptance.
I would suggest that you know what you are doing before you send it in.
This is only the beginning of the process.

[Setras]

Mine came today too, but I haven't opened it....

There's only me living here, I have no idea who 'THE OCCUPIER' is! Must be the previous tennant... :p


Yeah I am not the occupier I am the "OWNER" or "RECIPIENT" perhaps we should post all the forms that say "OCCUPIER" to the MOD for their role in the Afghan debarkle....

[ScubaMonkey]

And you know this how?
You have tried?
Please, if you don't know, say so, don't make statements as if you do know.


Have I tried what?

I'm confused as to what part you don't get... It really is about how rigorous they'll enforce it, i.e. will they really take me to Court.
An Article 8 defence would be long, complicated and costly and if that's all I'm relying on the prospects are not good.
If I attempted to defend and lost my case I would get a Magistrates' Court Fine. We know this, this is the only reason we're thinking about completing it.
If I don't pay the fine the Court can enforce the fine against me using a number of methods such as an attachment of my earnings but most often Bailiffs.
Bailiffs collecting magistrates' court fines have the powers to force entry into your home. They'll often not do so unless they know you're in and deliberately avoiding them.
If I do manage to avoid the bailiff the matter goes back to court for them to take further action.
They'd summons me to appear at Court to answer as to why the fine has not been paid.
If I do not show a warrant of arrest will be issued to bring me to Court where I can be detained in custody for a day while they wait to see me.
If the magistrate deems that I have not paid the fine due to 'wilful refusal or culpable neglect' I can be sentenced to prison... and boy I'm to pretty for prison!

In all likelihood the matter would be stopped at the bailiff stage once they got hold of my car, tv, sofa, coffee machine, microwave, dishwasher, laptop and other electricals... yup, reckon that little lot would cover it once sold at auction!

If there's anything you want me to go over in more detail Sidious, just let me know. I'll prob not respond until tomorrow though. Need to start trying to get sleepy or I'll be knackered in the morning.

[aikya]

OK. I've checked out the Office for National Statistics on

http://www.manta.com/world/?search=Office+for+National+Statistics

(This is the best site I've found for checking private companies)

It is listed as a private company.

Office For National Statistics
Office For National Statistics
Newport, NP10 8XG, United Kingdom
Phone: (08456) 013034 Website: Information not found Ads by Google

Office For National Statistics is a private company categorized under Trading Stamp Promotion and Redemption and located in Newport, United Kingdom. Register for free to see additional information such as annual revenue and employment figures.

Location Type Branch
Annual Sales (Estimated) Information not found
Employees (Estimated) Information not found
SIC Code View Details
NAICS Code 561990, All Other Support Services
Products, Services
and Brands Information not found
State of Incorporation Information not found
Years in Business Information not found

Office For National Statistics
Office For National Statistics
Newport, NP10 8XG, United Kingdom
Phone: (08456) 013034 Website: Information not found

Lockheed Martin is also a private company. So this supports the notion that it's a contract which can be refused.

I'm still digging on this but atm I can't see how it can be anything other than a contract.

[aikya]

There's a great link - found via the David Icke forum - to a letter at the TPUC website that might be of interest jasontorque:

http://www.tpuc.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=60&t=29456

Thanks for that, Adrift. This seems like an excellent letter, so I'm posting it in full here.

Dave: of the Murphy Family
c/o STREET,
TOWN,
COUNTY
[POSTCODE]

Office for National Statistics
Government Buildings
Cardiff Road
Newport
South Wales
NP10 8XG

Notice of Conditional Acceptance and Request for Clarification

Dear Ms. Matheson,

I write in response to the Census form received on --/03/2011.

I must admit to being a little confused, it was my understanding that the census was instigated as a simple numerical count of the population; however, the information required in this census form far exceeds this mandate.

I am happy to complete this census form subject to receipt of clarification of the following points.


1. What law requires me to complete the census?
2. From where does the Office for National Statistics derive the lawful authority to demand private information?
3. Is there a limit to invasion of privacy?
4. Is the Office for National Statistics lawfully authorised to demand Private property?
5. How can we be penalised for failure to provide information
6. Are there any circumstances whereby security agencies may access census information?
7. Since census data be requested by law enforcement, can I not answer so as to not to incriminate myself?
8. Since every government database has been hacked, leaked, lost or compromised in some fashion, how can the Office for National Statistics claim data security with any confidence?
9. Is the Office for National Statistics responsible for mishandled data?
10. What evidence do you have that I am a United Kingdom Resident?
11. Can you confirm or deny that the census data will be handled by an American Arms Manufacturer Lockheed Martin?
12. Can you confirm or deny that all U.S. companies are subject to the Patriot Act which allows the U.S. Government full access to any data in that company’s possession?
13. Can you confirm or deny that the Statistics and Registration Service Act 2007 section 39 subsection 4 would allow disclosure of personal information to any and/or all o the following:

• The 56 geographical and 8 non-geographical UK Police Forces.
• The three UK Intelligence Agencies (MI5, MI6 and GCHQ).
• The Department for Work and Pensions.
• Private investigators working for the Department for Work and Pensions to hunt down “benefits cheats”.
• Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs tax investigators.
• “Approved” Insurance Industry “anti-fraud” investigators / private investigators.
• The Home Office Borders and Immigration Agency.
• The Serious Organised Crime Agency (either for domestic investigations into Serious Crimes, or for these and also for minor investigations if requested by a Foreign Law Enforcement agency under Mutual Legal Assistance treaties.
• Lawyers in civil Court Cases e.g. for Divorce or Libel or Copyright Infringement etc.
• Local Authority Trading Standards departments.
• Local Authority Environmental Health departments.


Please provide your response in the form of a Statement of Truth, sworn under penalty of perjury and upon your full commercial liability within seven (7) days of receipt of this notice, I respectfully return your census form until such time as these conditions are met.

If I do not receive such a response conforming to the above criteria within, it will be deemed a tacit agreement by your acquiescence that this census is unlawful and that I have no obligation to participate.

Sincerely without malice, ill will, vexation or frivolity


By: Dave: of the Murphy family
All Rights Reserved - Without Prejudice - Without Recourse - Non-Assumpsit
Errors & Omissions Excepted

Enc: Original paperwork as received



We have options....

[jasontorque]

Dear Adrift. Thank you for posting this link and information - just the sort of thing I have been looking for. I will follow this closely and if it stacks up then I salute the people who are brave enough to take this on. I believe it is our duty to do so.

[Lord Sidious]

And you know this how?
You have tried?
Please, if you don't know, say so, don't make statements as if you do know.


Have I tried what?

I'm confused as to what part you don't get... It really is about how rigorous they'll enforce it, i.e. will they really take me to Court.
An Article 8 defence would be long, complicated and costly and if that's all I'm relying on the prospects are not good.
If I attempted to defend and lost my case I would get a Magistrates' Court Fine. We know this, this is the only reason we're thinking about completing it.
If I don't pay the fine the Court can enforce the fine against me using a number of methods such as an attachment of my earnings but most often Bailiffs.
Bailiffs collecting magistrates' court fines have the powers to force entry into your home. They'll often not do so unless they know you're in and deliberately avoiding them.
If I do manage to avoid the bailiff the matter goes back to court for them to take further action.
They'd summons me to appear at Court to answer as to why the fine has not been paid.
If I do not show a warrant of arrest will be issued to bring me to Court where I can be detained in custody for a day while they wait to see me.
If the magistrate deems that I have not paid the fine due to 'wilful refusal or culpable neglect' I can be sentenced to prison... and boy I'm to pretty for prison!

In all likelihood the matter would be stopped at the bailiff stage once they got hold of my car, tv, sofa, coffee machine, microwave, dishwasher, laptop and other electricals... yup, reckon that little lot would cover it once sold at auction!

If there's anything you want me to go over in more detail Sidious, just let me know. I'll prob not respond until tomorrow though. Need to start trying to get sleepy or I'll be knackered in the morning.

Let me point out two things about your two posts, one they are saying THEY WILL. How do you know what they will or won't do?
How do you know they will have the resources to chase everyone that doesn't comply?
Secondly, you seem to be caught in the paradigm of fear, if I don't do this, they will do that.
Stop it.
Now.
They are YOUR servants, stop taking crap from them. Show them that you know who and what you are.
I would suggest you go here http://www.tpuc.org/forum/index.php and see if there is any group in your area and go learn.
I never comply with the system, regardless of what they ask me to do.
The see me as such a threat they give orders for me to be locked out of courthouses.


OK. I've checked out the Office for National Statistics on

http://www.manta.com/world/?search=Office+for+National+Statistics

(This is the best site I've found for checking private companies)

It is listed as a private company.

Office For National Statistics
Office For National Statistics
Newport, NP10 8XG, United Kingdom
Phone: (08456) 013034 Website: Information not found Ads by Google

Office For National Statistics is a private company categorized under Trading Stamp Promotion and Redemption and located in Newport, United Kingdom. Register for free to see additional information such as annual revenue and employment figures.

Location Type Branch
Annual Sales (Estimated) Information not found
Employees (Estimated) Information not found
SIC Code View Details
NAICS Code 561990, All Other Support Services
Products, Services
and Brands Information not found
State of Incorporation Information not found
Years in Business Information not found

Office For National Statistics
Office For National Statistics
Newport, NP10 8XG, United Kingdom
Phone: (08456) 013034 Website: Information not found

Lockheed Martin is also a private company. So this supports the notion that it's a contract which can be refused.

I'm still digging on this but atm I can't see how it can be anything other than a contract.

You are correct.
Bearing that in mind, is it not the case that one part of the nexus of the contract is that there is mutual consideration?
What is in it for you?


There's a great link - found via the David Icke forum - to a letter at the TPUC website that might be of interest jasontorque:

http://www.tpuc.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=60&t=29456

Thanks for that, Adrift. This seems like an excellent letter, so I'm posting it in full here.

Dave: of the Murphy Family
c/o STREET,
TOWN,
COUNTY
[POSTCODE]

Office for National Statistics
Government Buildings
Cardiff Road
Newport
South Wales
NP10 8XG

Notice of Conditional Acceptance and Request for Clarification

Dear Ms. Matheson,

I write in response to the Census form received on --/03/2011.

I must admit to being a little confused, it was my understanding that the census was instigated as a simple numerical count of the population; however, the information required in this census form far exceeds this mandate.

I am happy to complete this census form subject to receipt of clarification of the following points.


1. What law requires me to complete the census?
2. From where does the Office for National Statistics derive the lawful authority to demand private information?
3. Is there a limit to invasion of privacy?
4. Is the Office for National Statistics lawfully authorised to demand Private property?
5. How can we be penalised for failure to provide information
6. Are there any circumstances whereby security agencies may access census information?
7. Since census data be requested by law enforcement, can I not answer so as to not to incriminate myself?
8. Since every government database has been hacked, leaked, lost or compromised in some fashion, how can the Office for National Statistics claim data security with any confidence?
9. Is the Office for National Statistics responsible for mishandled data?
10. What evidence do you have that I am a United Kingdom Resident?
11. Can you confirm or deny that the census data will be handled by an American Arms Manufacturer Lockheed Martin?
12. Can you confirm or deny that all U.S. companies are subject to the Patriot Act which allows the U.S. Government full access to any data in that company’s possession?
13. Can you confirm or deny that the Statistics and Registration Service Act 2007 section 39 subsection 4 would allow disclosure of personal information to any and/or all o the following:

• The 56 geographical and 8 non-geographical UK Police Forces.
• The three UK Intelligence Agencies (MI5, MI6 and GCHQ).
• The Department for Work and Pensions.
• Private investigators working for the Department for Work and Pensions to hunt down “benefits cheats”.
• Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs tax investigators.
• “Approved” Insurance Industry “anti-fraud” investigators / private investigators.
• The Home Office Borders and Immigration Agency.
• The Serious Organised Crime Agency (either for domestic investigations into Serious Crimes, or for these and also for minor investigations if requested by a Foreign Law Enforcement agency under Mutual Legal Assistance treaties.
• Lawyers in civil Court Cases e.g. for Divorce or Libel or Copyright Infringement etc.
• Local Authority Trading Standards departments.
• Local Authority Environmental Health departments.


Please provide your response in the form of a Statement of Truth, sworn under penalty of perjury and upon your full commercial liability within seven (7) days of receipt of this notice, I respectfully return your census form until such time as these conditions are met.

If I do not receive such a response conforming to the above criteria within, it will be deemed a tacit agreement by your acquiescence that this census is unlawful and that I have no obligation to participate.

Sincerely without malice, ill will, vexation or frivolity


By: Dave: of the Murphy family
All Rights Reserved - Without Prejudice - Without Recourse - Non-Assumpsit
Errors & Omissions Excepted

Enc: Original paperwork as received



We have options....

That isn't a letter, it is a notice.
I had a lot of trouble trying to get a group of people here to listen to me as they thought they knew better.
I told them once, when they were complaining that politicians ignored them, use a notice, they won't ignore that.
So, one of them wrote a letter to the governor general, no reply.
About a month later, he listened and tried a notice.
He got a reply inside a week.

[aikya]

You are correct.
Bearing that in mind, is it not the case that one part of the nexus of the contract is that there is mutual consideration?
What is in it for you?



Yes, there has to be mutual consideration.
There also has to be full disclosure.
And a contract can only be made with a specific person and signed by them.

So strictly speaking even as a contract, it's not valid.



That isn't a letter, it is a notice.


Perhaps you're right. It could also be seen as an offer to contract.....providing the stated conditions are met.
I think I'd also include a charge in there, lol.

[Lord Sidious]

You are correct.
Bearing that in mind, is it not the case that one part of the nexus of the contract is that there is mutual consideration?
What is in it for you?



Yes, there has to be mutual consideration.
There also has to be full disclosure.
And a contract can only be made with a specific person and signed by them.

So strictly speaking even as a contract, it's not valid.



That isn't a letter, it is a notice.


Perhaps you'right. It could also be seen as an offer to contract.....providing the stated conditions are met.
I think I'd also include a charge in there, lol.

Technically speaking, that notice is a form of Notice of Demand and isn't an offer to contract in as much as an out of court tactic to set up a default judgement.

[ScubaMonkey]

How do you know what they will or won't do?
Extensive professional experience.

How do you know they will have the resources to chase everyone that doesn't comply?
Exactly why I said it's all down to how rigorously they enforce it. Will they actually get round to taking me to Court?! Then you have to consider that you could lose if they did.

Secondly, you seem to be caught in the paradigm of fear, if I don't do this, they will do that.

Not fear, just understanding of the process, risks and associated difficulties... and the amount of time it will all take.


The see me as such a threat they give orders for me to be locked out of courthouses.

Erm...

:shocked:

[aikya]

Technically speaking, that notice is a form of Notice of Demand and isn't an offer to contract in as much as an out of court tactic to set up a default judgement.

This sentence:




I am happy to complete this census form subject to receipt of clarification of the following points



is, or could reasonably be argued to be, an acceptance of the contract provided certain conditions are met.

It prevents them from taking you to court because there is no default on your part, no refusal. There is an offer to contract based on 'mutuality', ie. the demand for further information about the content of the contract.

Since 'full disclosure' is legally required, they are in a difficult position to refuse.

They can attempt to harrass and frighten people into signing, but unless they meet all the requested requirements, there is no default, therefore no case against you.

'''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''

I'm no legal expert, that's just my personal understanding.

[Lord Sidious]

Technically speaking, that notice is a form of Notice of Demand and isn't an offer to contract in as much as an out of court tactic to set up a default judgement.

This sentence:




I am happy to complete this census form subject to receipt of clarification of the following points



is, or could reasonably be argued to be, an acceptance of the contract provided certain conditions are met.

It prevents them from taking you to court because there is no default on your part, no refusal. There is an offer to contract based on 'mutuality', ie. the demand for further information about the content of the contract.

Since 'full disclosure' is legally required, they are in a difficult position to refuse.

They can attempt to harrass and frighten people into signing, but unless they meet all the requested requirements, there is no default, therefore no case against you.

All very true.
The thing is, people say that all law is contract, but few know much of contract law.
Notices are usually contract devices to settle disputes outside of court.
Like the demands people get for unpaid debts.

[jasontorque]

This is a good discussion, with balanced views from different perspectives. It will help others to consider their position as many will be more cautious, and needing a little help and courage with the details (including myself).

Adrift's posting made by the Murphy Family (c/o David Icke's Forum) is extremely detailed, I would like to ask whether Lord Sidious and Aikya might be adopting this approach?

I can't help but feeling this Census is a test of our compliance. What's next - the withdrawal of cash from the monetary system, compulsory DNA records, compulsory immunisations, even more intrusive security measures? I understand that the power to enter our homes and photograph everything is on Statute, although unenforced.

[777]

Technically speaking, that notice is a form of Notice of Demand and isn't an offer to contract in as much as an out of court tactic to set up a default judgement.

This sentence:




I am happy to complete this census form subject to receipt of clarification of the following points



is, or could reasonably be argued to be, an acceptance of the contract provided certain conditions are met.

It prevents them from taking you to court because there is no default on your part, no refusal. There is an offer to contract based on 'mutuality', ie. the demand for further information about the content of the contract.

Since 'full disclosure' is legally required, they are in a difficult position to refuse.

They can attempt to harrass and frighten people into signing, but unless they meet all the requested requirements, there is no default, therefore no case against you.

All very true.
The thing is, people say that all law is contract, but few know much of contract law.
Notices are usually contract devices to settle disputes outside of court.
Like the demands people get for unpaid debts.

Applauding the two of you here, good work. Only thing is we're being lost in (very necessary) semantics here (which pretty much sums up the legal system IMHO). The reality is, they could respond to all of the conditions within the notice with the usual cloak and dagger bull****. And you've just agreed (arguably legally) to fill out the very thing you didn't want to, albeit in a more palatable fashion.

And this sidesteps the crucial first step of denying reciept. I highly doubt they will start sending them recorded delivery and even if so signature denial is something I'm not opposed to! :p

[morgs59]

I always thought the census was to count the population lol.Obviously not.Anyway I shall just lie it goes against the grain with me to do this but there is no way am I giving my info out to this lot of toe rags. Bad enough when taking your money out of the bank and they want to know what you are going to spend it on. The last time I was asked this I said I was sending a large donation to David Icke.;)
So follow the leaders folks and just lie.

[Ammit]

Trouble is:
they tell us of it being compulsory and in not taking part we could face a fine for non participation or giving false information.
The one recieved by my household yesterday has a deadline of the 27th March. Seems to be quite an urgent demand for information.

Ammit

[chelmostef]

Might be worth browsing though this thread it is the same topic-

http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?14710-The-UK-2011-Census-is-here.-Run-by-Lockheed-Martin!&p=163569

[Lord Sidious]

This is a good discussion, with balanced views from different perspectives. It will help others to consider their position as many will be more cautious, and needing a little help and courage with the details (including myself).

Adrift's posting made by the Murphy Family (c/o David Icke's Forum) is extremely detailed, I would like to ask whether Lord Sidious and Aikya might be adopting this approach?

I can't help but feeling this Census is a test of our compliance. What's next - the withdrawal of cash from the monetary system, compulsory DNA records, compulsory immunisations, even more intrusive security measures? I understand that the power to enter our homes and photograph everything is on Statute, although unenforced.

I would use that approach, but as I said before, they leave me alone now.
We have crossed swords enough times for them to know I don't bluff and yes, I am a master of the blade.
If you give ground on one thing, you will give ground on many.
Learn to use your pen and don't give ground.
I have a suspicion it will get easier from here on in as there will be more of us dissenting and less of them to chase us due to budget cuts.
Make no mistake, I am out to gut the beast, I know how to do it and I have been doing my bit for years.
I can and will show others how to take their pocket knife to the beast as well.
But only if you are serious, no unemployed comedians need apply.







Technically speaking, that notice is a form of Notice of Demand and isn't an offer to contract in as much as an out of court tactic to set up a default judgement.

This sentence:




I am happy to complete this census form subject to receipt of clarification of the following points



is, or could reasonably be argued to be, an acceptance of the contract provided certain conditions are met.

It prevents them from taking you to court because there is no default on your part, no refusal. There is an offer to contract based on 'mutuality', ie. the demand for further information about the content of the contract.

Since 'full disclosure' is legally required, they are in a difficult position to refuse.

They can attempt to harrass and frighten people into signing, but unless they meet all the requested requirements, there is no default, therefore no case against you.

All very true.
The thing is, people say that all law is contract, but few know much of contract law.
Notices are usually contract devices to settle disputes outside of court.
Like the demands people get for unpaid debts.

Applauding the two of you here, good work. Only thing is we're being lost in (very necessary) semantics here (which pretty much sums up the legal system IMHO). The reality is, they could respond to all of the conditions within the notice with the usual cloak and dagger bull****. And you've just agreed (arguably legally) to fill out the very thing you didn't want to, albeit in a more palatable fashion.

And this sidesteps the crucial first step of denying reciept. I highly doubt they will start sending them recorded delivery and even if so signature denial is something I'm not opposed to! :p

Let them be in dishonour, do not lie.
Why should you?
And they will not reply in honour to the conditional acceptance.
I have never seen a reply in honour yet.


Trouble is:
they tell us of it being compulsory and in not taking part we could face a fine for non participation or giving false information.
The one recieved by my household yesterday has a deadline of the 27th March. Seems to be quite an urgent demand for information.

Ammit

The easy out is to go and camp out at the time of the census, if you want an easy out.
I would caution you, this is a relatively easy exercise to practise on.
If you can't or won't do the easy ones, what happens when they deliver a hard one to you?

[mondaze]

this validates my decision to join avalon.... even though i'm not naturally a joiner.

[777]

Lord Sidius wrote:

"Let them be in dishonour, do not lie.
Why should you?
And they will not reply in honour to the conditional acceptance.
I have never seen a reply in honour yet"

Surely the point here is mass organised boycott? That being the case, mass reciept denial is simple, easy to do by everyone (especially those with no knowledge of law), and carries no penalty. You may see this as running, I see it as cunning.

If a 100 people put guns down out of non-compliance, or a handful put theirs down because they know how to.......which is preferable? I'm aware I shouldn't have to but it achieves the goal quicker and in greater numbers!

(Again, honest debate to further our collective knowledge base, no facetious words intended)

[Sarlic]

I always ignore anything that comes though my door thats asking for personal details no matter who they are from.
That includes Census's and the electoral roll.
The only person in the UK that can ask for your name and you have to legally tell them is a police officer.
You can safely ignore all those idiots with the clipboard.

And as for people worrying about getting that nasty summons coming though the door
You cant send a summons to the "occupier" summons's have to have a name on them ;)

[Lord Sidious]

Lord Sidius wrote:

"Let them be in dishonour, do not lie.
Why should you?
And they will not reply in honour to the conditional acceptance.
I have never seen a reply in honour yet"

Surely the point here is mass organised boycott? That being the case, mass reciept denial is simple, easy to do by everyone (especially those with no knowledge of law), and carries no penalty. You may see this as running, I see it as cunning.

If a 100 people put guns down out of non-compliance, or a handful put theirs down because they know how to.......which is preferable? I'm aware I shouldn't have to but it achieves the goal quicker and in greater numbers!

(Again, honest debate to further our collective knowledge base, no facetious words intended)

Ok, lets get one thing straight here, law is an esoteric practise.
When dealing with esoterica, you do NOT put out negativity and expect to get back anything different.
Lying and other forms of dishonour are not the way to go.
Confront and defeat them, do not cower, lie and cheat, let them do that.


I always ignore anything that comes though my door thats asking for personal details no matter who they are from.
That includes Census's and the electoral roll.
The only person in the UK that can ask for your name and you have to legally tell them is a police officer.
You can safely ignore all those idiots with the clipboard.

And as for people worrying about getting that nasty summons coming though the door
You cant send a summons to the "occupier" summons's have to have a name on them ;)

Silence/ignorance is another form of dishonour, don't do it.
Oh, and you don't always have to tell the police a thing.
And no, you can't summons the occupier, that would be abuse of process.

[777]

Lord Sidius wrote:

"Let them be in dishonour, do not lie.
Why should you?
And they will not reply in honour to the conditional acceptance.
I have never seen a reply in honour yet"

Surely the point here is mass organised boycott? That being the case, mass reciept denial is simple, easy to do by everyone (especially those with no knowledge of law), and carries no penalty. You may see this as running, I see it as cunning.

If a 100 people put guns down out of non-compliance, or a handful put theirs down because they know how to.......which is preferable? I'm aware I shouldn't have to but it achieves the goal quicker and in greater numbers!

(Again, honest debate to further our collective knowledge base, no facetious words intended)

Ok, lets get one thing straight here, law is an esoteric practise.
When dealing with esoterica, you do NOT put out negativity and expect to get back anything different.
Lying and other forms of dishonour are not the way to go.
Confront and defeat them, do not cower, lie and cheat, let them do that.



Thanks for that LS.......

*Fixes beret, chin up, back straight, rifle layed down, pen in hand*

I needed that e-slap bro nice one.

:tea:

[Lord Sidious]

Lord Sidius wrote:

"Let them be in dishonour, do not lie.
Why should you?
And they will not reply in honour to the conditional acceptance.
I have never seen a reply in honour yet"

Surely the point here is mass organised boycott? That being the case, mass reciept denial is simple, easy to do by everyone (especially those with no knowledge of law), and carries no penalty. You may see this as running, I see it as cunning.

If a 100 people put guns down out of non-compliance, or a handful put theirs down because they know how to.......which is preferable? I'm aware I shouldn't have to but it achieves the goal quicker and in greater numbers!

(Again, honest debate to further our collective knowledge base, no facetious words intended)

Ok, lets get one thing straight here, law is an esoteric practise.
When dealing with esoterica, you do NOT put out negativity and expect to get back anything different.
Lying and other forms of dishonour are not the way to go.
Confront and defeat them, do not cower, lie and cheat, let them do that.



Thanks for that LS.......

*Fixes beret, chin up, back straight, rifle layed down, pen in hand*

I needed that e-slap bro nice one.

:tea:

Yeah, and get a hair cut too.
Oh, and some polish on those toe caps.

[dan i el]

The forms are coded for each address, no return = visit. ergo. Fill out the form with spurious but believable data, You don't need to fill out the form for everyone in your household only those you can be bothered about, got anyone staying over...don't put them on it. Give full potential to your creative journalistic talents but make it believable. Then everyone will be happy. The ONS will have a lot of useless information they will sell to others as being the real legit article and be very happy with the result, as will you for screwing it all up. If you really want to add to the burden of the compilers, just rub white candle wax thinly over the barcode and references on each page. This cannot be optically read and will therefore end up by having to be manually input to the database, then you will also have the satisfaction of wasting as much of their time, as you wasted by filling it in, in the first place

trelawney126

Posts: 8
Joined: Tue Jan 11, 2011 10:27 pm



http://www.fmotl.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=36&t=5832&hilit=census&start=20#p57242

nice idea

[Sarlic]

Lord Sidious

I hear what your saying mate but i would'nt call ignoring the clipboard brigade dishonorable
more like being smart and beating them as they dont get your info they so crave.

And i agree about not having to tell a copper anything but what i was saying was "legally"
you have to tell them your name if they ask or you can be arrested and held untill they get your details
which in my op is not very smart as they win.

To be honest i like your way much better then mine but i have to be a bit more smart due to the fact
i have a family who would not want summons and constant knocks on the door because i choose not play their silly games.

[aikya]

I received mine today. Interestingly, I haven't yet been able to find anything in the form or the enclosed leaflet which states there's a fine of £1000 for not complying. It must be one of those things hidden in plain site somewhere..please can someone tell me where it is written? thanks.

[Jayke]

do we really need to reply to these things anyway, mines addressed to 'the occupier'...if it's not got a name on it, do we even need to open it?

[Circe]

I received mine today, it says the information is used to help plan and fund services for your community.
Such questions as:
What is your ethnic group?
What passports do you hold?
last week were you?
how well can you speak English?
what religion are you?
Were you looking actively for any kind of paid work during the last 4 weeks?
On 27 March 2011, what is your legal marital or same sex civil partnership status?
The answers to the above questions helps them to make such decisions do they? :confused:

[mesta0ptik]

Short and simple - non-compliance from me.

The form will remain in its unsealed state as the letterbox received it (un-received by a human being) in some suitable place around the house, just in case they demand their property back.

I have looked into the contract and legalise side of these matters before, thanks mainly to John Harris and the FMOTL site, very complicated area to tread, but does seem like a very probable answer to the problem. However, it does require an in depth look into contractual law and researching law definitions before trying to have a fairly successful chance of winning. The info is out there for those up to the task.

I doubt I will be alone in not filling out and returning this form.

[DevilPigeon]

.
.
And i agree about not having to tell a copper anything but what i was saying was "legally"
you have to tell them your name if they ask or you can be arrested and held untill they get your details
which in my op is not very smart as they win.
.
.


As long as you haven't broken a law/committed an offense, you're not obliged to give any details at all.

From what I've seen on the likes of TPUC, and John Harris' excellent videos, confirming your name is the equivalent of you entering into a verbal contract.

[ScubaMonkey]

If anyone wants to have a look through the primary legislation that allows them to do this it's here. I'm hoping to get a chance to go though it in detail at the weekend.

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/Geo5/10-11/41/contents

I'm interested in what allows them to request so much info, as surely this would not have been the intent of the original legislation in 1920. There was an amendment to the Act in 2000, so maybe it's in there.

From what I gather they are planning to enforce it against those that do not comply at all (i.e. do not return their forms), but not against people who only partly comply (i.e. put their name address and date of birth and nothing else, for example). This makes me wonder why. Why not just go after everyone? Are they only allowed to ask for specific info under the law and therefore if you don't fill out the rest there's jack all they can do about it?!

Personally, I've yet to find a method of non-compliance on this one that I'm comfortable with, when considering the whole picture.

It would be good for people who do not comply to keep us up to date on what happens and at the same time I'd recommend that these people ensure they understand what they are potentially letting themselves in for if their case goes to court.

[Setras]

There was an amendment to the Act in 2000, so maybe it's in there.


Yes it was Schedule paragraph 6

6.
Any other matters with respect to which it is desirable to obtain statistical information with a view to ascertaining the social or civil condition of the population.

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/Geo5/10-11/41/schedule

[ScubaMonkey]

Crafty buggers!

[Lord Sidious]

The forms are coded for each address, no return = visit. ergo. Fill out the form with spurious but believable data, You don't need to fill out the form for everyone in your household only those you can be bothered about, got anyone staying over...don't put them on it. Give full potential to your creative journalistic talents but make it believable. Then everyone will be happy. The ONS will have a lot of useless information they will sell to others as being the real legit article and be very happy with the result, as will you for screwing it all up. If you really want to add to the burden of the compilers, just rub white candle wax thinly over the barcode and references on each page. This cannot be optically read and will therefore end up by having to be manually input to the database, then you will also have the satisfaction of wasting as much of their time, as you wasted by filling it in, in the first place

trelawney126

Posts: 8
Joined: Tue Jan 11, 2011 10:27 pm



http://www.fmotl.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=36&t=5832&hilit=census&start=20#p57242

nice idea

The first part is bad advice, if you complete the form, you are now accepting their jurisdiction and their law says putting fake info on the form is bad.
The candlewax part, that is just pure cunning.
I like it.


Lord Sidious

I hear what your saying mate but i would'nt call ignoring the clipboard brigade dishonorable
more like being smart and beating them as they dont get your info they so crave.

And i agree about not having to tell a copper anything but what i was saying was "legally"
you have to tell them your name if they ask or you can be arrested and held untill they get your details
which in my op is not very smart as they win.

To be honest i like your way much better then mine but i have to be a bit more smart due to the fact
i have a family who would not want summons and constant knocks on the door because i choose not play their silly games.

Ok, let me put this to you then;
Lesson one in responding to offers.
There are four types of responses to all offers, two are honourable and two are not.
1 Acceptance. This is where you are agreeing totally with the offer.
2 Conditional Acceptance. This is where you have an issue or more than one, that once fixed, will be an acceptance.
3 Silence. No explanation needed, you don't respond. Dishonourable.
and
4 Argument. The worst type of dishonour.

So yes, what you are proposing is dishonourable, highly.
And no, you don't always have to give the police your name.
The acts usually say something like ''a person must do x or they commit an offense'' are you a person?

I fully comprehend what you say about the family, but here is the rub, if you don't start out small, you will never master this and be able to deal with it.






do we really need to reply to these things anyway, mines addressed to 'the occupier'...if it's not got a name on it, do we even need to open it?

You could handle that in a lot of different ways.
You could send it back, with ''Not known at this address'' on it, you could forward it to the British army headquarters in Germany and tell them this appears to be theirs as they are the occupiers, there are tons of funny things you could do.
If you send it back, I would say that a letter to the distributors removing any implied lisence to enter your property would be a good idea and give them a trespass fee.
If they can't enter your property, they can't bring the form.
If they do enter, you have them, they owe you.
They are not the crown, they can't enter your property without your permission.


Short and simple - non-compliance from me.

The form will remain in its unsealed state as the letterbox received it (un-received by a human being) in some suitable place around the house, just in case they demand their property back.

I have looked into the contract and legalise side of these matters before, thanks mainly to John Harrison and the FMOTL site, very complicated area to tread, but does seem like a very probable answer to the problem. However, it does require an in depth look into contractual law and researching law definitions before trying to have a fairly successful chance of winning. The info is out there for those up to the task.

I doubt I will be alone in not filling out and returning this form.

Last time I had one, about 5 years ago, I simply told them no one was home that night, here is your form, sling your hook.
They told me all sorts of things about fines, I told them to leave now, or I would remove them by force, then arrest them for trespass.
They left.
The end.
It is only difficult if you believe it is.



8
Penalties.


(1)
If any person—



(a)
refuses or neglects to comply with or acts in contravention of any of the provisions of this Act or any Order in Council or regulations made under this Act; or



(b)
being a person required under this Act to make a statutory declaration with respect to the performance of his duties, makes a false declaration; or



(c)
being a person required by any Order in Council or regulations made under this Act to make, sign, or deliver any document, makes, signs, or delivers, or causes to be made, signed, or delivered a false document; or



(d)
being a person required in pursuance of any such Order in Council or regulations to answer any question, refuses to answer or gives a false answer to that question;



he shall for each offence be liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding [F1level 3 on the standard scale].

Hands up all persons reading this?

[DevilPigeon]

How about this:

I put my Birth Certificate & National Insurance card into an envelope addressed to me, which is then put into an envelope addressed to a friend/family member along with a covering note asking them to post my first envelope at such-and-such a date....?

Theory being, within the window of the cencus being open, the legal fictions representing my sovereign-self have done an Elvis - left the building!

[Lord Sidious]

How about this:

I put my Birth Certificate & National Insurance card into an envelope addressed to me, which is then put into an envelope addressed to a friend/family member along with a covering note asking them to post my first envelope at such-and-such a date....?

Theory being, within the window of the cencus being open, the legal fictions representing my sovereign-self have done an Elvis - left the building!

I would say that the legal fiction, we can call it a strawman from now on, exists for you to use in commerce.
Why would you want to get rid of it?
If that is what you meant?

[DevilPigeon]

How about this:

I put my Birth Certificate & National Insurance card into an envelope addressed to me, which is then put into an envelope addressed to a friend/family member along with a covering note asking them to post my first envelope at such-and-such a date....?

Theory being, within the window of the cencus being open, the legal fictions representing my sovereign-self have done an Elvis - left the building!

I would say that the legal fiction, we can call it a strawman from now on, exists for you to use in commerce.
Why would you want to get rid of it?
If that is what you meant?

No. I agree with your point about commerce, and heck I'd be a hypocrite if I said I wasn't a user of credit myself! :)

I was merely thinking maybe my strawman deserves a short holiday in the not too distant future....!

[Lord Sidious]

How about this:

I put my Birth Certificate & National Insurance card into an envelope addressed to me, which is then put into an envelope addressed to a friend/family member along with a covering note asking them to post my first envelope at such-and-such a date....?

Theory being, within the window of the cencus being open, the legal fictions representing my sovereign-self have done an Elvis - left the building!

I would say that the legal fiction, we can call it a strawman from now on, exists for you to use in commerce.
Why would you want to get rid of it?
If that is what you meant?

No. I agree with your point about commerce, and heck I'd be a hypocrite if I said I wasn't a user of credit myself! :)

I was merely thinking maybe my strawman deserves a short holiday in the not too distant future....!

Next thing you will tell me is that you have put a moratorium on crapping over tourists!
What a nice pigeon you are.

[DevilPigeon]

Next thing you will tell me is that you have put a moratorium on crapping over tourists!
What a nice pigeon you are.

Why thank you...!

I draw the line at Wolves supporters, Stoke supporters & politicians though, they get the full motherload! :crazy_pilot: :caked:

[shijo]

It will be very interesting to see how vigorous these private distributors / enforcement officers will be. I once had a debate with one of these gentlemen at my front door, pursuing me rather insistently regarding the usual Council Tax forms. I explained that I had already sent in the form, which he said that they had not received, that I would not be completing it again, reminded him that he was on private property and it was rather inappropriate for strangers to arrive unannounced and that he could continue the conversation with my dogs if he was not satisfied with the answers which I had already provided.

well that told the bugger then... well done.

[chelmostef]

A report from the love police- Emergency Broadcast - Revolution Imminent - Europe


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pO9JHgttoUo&feature=player_embedded#at=312

[Mr54]

Hey Lord Sid, what about if you filled in the form in full but in fountain pen, then were to accidentally drop the form into a muddy muddy puddle?

[sunnydaze]

there are some great ideas here and I dont think it is dishonourable to fill it in with false info, which ever way people decide to avoid it is valid.

I like the candle wax idea!

[777]

Hey Lord Sid, what about if you filled in the form in full but in fountain pen, then were to accidentally drop the form into a muddy muddy puddle?

He he. I do like naughtiness. Love fuelled mischief is always desirable.

[TimelessDimensions]

Census 2011 = the slave masters taking stock of their cattle

[aikya]

Census 2011 = the slave masters taking stock of their cattle

And our signature confirms acceptance of our slave status.

[Champion the Wonderhorse]

A report from the love police- Emergency Broadcast - Revolution Imminent - Europe


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pO9JHgttoUo&feature=player_embedded#at=312

Absolutely bloody fantastic what's happening here.
Many thanks to L S and others for great posts and information.
Amazing what happened at Birkenhead. Two or three years ago I would have never believed it!
A British revolution is taking place, and its happening worldwide. Too long now have we been quiet, its time to wake up.
This will call for outstanding bravery from each and every one of us. Not taking to the streets and rioting, thats a mistake. No assaults, no vandalism. But a calm confidence in knowing that we are all supporting each other. If one person is summoned to court, then we all attend to give support.
Educating ourselves is a must. The information at TPUC is priceless.
You can expect repercussions. The Zionists won't take this lightly. But they can't win with a revolution in mass numbers.

Peace Out.

[aikya]

This could become a very significant protest and, more importantly, a significant step towards reclaiming sovreignty.

Edit to add: In sufficient numbers....especially if the courts are challenged too.

[777]

I'm just compiling an email to David Cameron and have a few questions so far. Please feel free to add any you can think of. I want this to leave no stone un-turned:

Dear Mr Cameron,

I have some important questions concerning the census 2011 that I would like answered on behalf on the citizens of Great Britain. Please respond as soon as possible so that we may fill in these forms for you as swiftly as we can. Thanks in advance for your time:

Why are our private details being sold to Lockheed-Martin, a US defence contractor?

Why are you going to fine me if I choose (of my own free will) not to respond to questioning?

Under what clause and statute of law will you attempt to punish me?

At what stage do you consider me as a party in a contract that I have never agreed to?

Our details will be kept confidential (providing they are not lost by a government body, which provably happens) for 100 years. Can we expect the same assurance from Lockheed-Martin?

Also, I've just been trawling through the Human Rights Act 1998, which has a fair few clauses that could be employed in a defence. Whilst I was reading I came across this:

Article 16
Restrictions on political activity of aliens

Nothing in Articles 10, 11 and 14 shall be regarded as preventing the High Contracting Parties from imposing restrictions on the political activity of aliens.

Does this mean what I think it means?

[TimelessDimensions]

This could become a very significant protest and, more importantly, a significant step towards reclaiming sovreignty.

I believe each individual must reclaim his own sovereignty and stand up and say "I don't need anyone to govern me, I am the master of myself",
country borders are illogical.

[Lord Sidious]

This could become a very significant protest and, more importantly, a significant step towards reclaiming sovreignty.

I believe each individual must reclaim his own sovereignty and stand up and say "I don't need anyone to govern me, I am the master of myself",
country borders are illogical.

Not necessarily.
Tribes all have their own cultures and traditions.
Borders can give them protection from the tyranny of the masses.

[aikya]

deleted - misquote. sorry.

[ulli]

This could become a very significant protest and, more importantly, a significant step towards reclaiming sovreignty.

I believe each individual must reclaim his own sovereignty and stand up and say "I don't need anyone to govern me, I am the master of myself",
country borders are illogical.

That's perfectly true, but only in part.

Some country borders are made up of coast lines and others of mountain ranges; in other words, they are nature-all.

Then there are the invisible borders--- because of cultural differences people in one part eat meat and in another are vegetarian.
When you take away those borders you'll see knife fights in restaurant kitchens.
So what's to be done?
It's all just a matter of time. Allow the process. What's important is vision and direction.

Set a high stand-ART upfront where all who are behind can see it.

[Open your eyes]

Does each individual get one? Or is it just per household?


Alex

[jasontorque]

I really had no idea that this post would encourage so much contribution, but I am delighted to see so many people taking part, offering their time, energy and input. I just wanted to say thank you again. I am reading everything very closely and hoping that something significant might just happen.

In response to Open Your Eyes, I am led to believe that it is one Census per household.

[Jayke]

Does each individual get one? Or is it just per household?


Alex

Yep, only one census delivered per household, regardless how many people live in that house...even less reason to need to fill them in

[peter67]

Be the FREEMAN you want to be ... screw em ... lol

[aikya]

I really had no idea that this post would encourage so much contribution, but I am delighted to see so many people taking part, offering their time, energy and input. I just wanted to say thank you again. I am reading everything very closely and hoping that something significant might just happen.

In response to Open Your Eyes, I am led to believe that it is one Census per household.

Yes, each one is addressed to 'The Occupier'....so it's one per household.


Edit.
Apologie....the question had already been answered.

[MiguelQ]

Hello Friends !

Here in Portugal, the Census is also in motion. It happens every ten years. We also have a fine betwenn 250 e 3.740 euros .

http://www.jornaldenegocios.pt/home.php?template=SHOWNEWS_V2&id=471843

Namasté


Well im in portugal and mine arrived day 6 or 7 of march..
But i see no troubles filling it? its just questions like, do you have high school? how many people live in your house, what are the relationship between them.. etc..

no offensive? whats the problem with you guys?

[Lord Sidious]

Hello Friends !

Here in Portugal, the Census is also in motion. It happens every ten years. We also have a fine betwenn 250 e 3.740 euros .

http://www.jornaldenegocios.pt/home.php?template=SHOWNEWS_V2&id=471843

Namasté


Well im in portugal and mine arrived day 6 or 7 of march..
But i see no troubles filling it? its just questions like, do you have high school? how many people live in your house, what are the relationship between them.. etc..

no offensive? whats the problem with you guys?

Some people, like me, don't like being told by the so called government to do something or else, they don't like the intrusion into their privacy, they don't like having to do this for free and that is just for starters.

[Mister_m]

I'm still undecided what to do with mine. One part of me wants to just fill in name, address, dob and possibly occupation and send the rest back blank. Another half of me wants to throw it in the bin.

[chelmostef]

How about re-writing the census to read how you want, then send it back... Write stuff - like I do not agree to be ruled by Kleptocrats... Lockheed-Martin are complicit in murdering fellow human beings, anything really like that or cross out the bits you don't agree with.... Give them the census they deserve.

From a legal stand point is to just not sign it or is it better to change what ever you are not happy with then sign it?

[Champion the Wonderhorse]

I'm still undecided what to do with mine. One part of me wants to just fill in name, address, dob and possibly occupation and send the rest back blank. Another half of me wants to throw it in the bin.

Correct me if I'm wrong but you'd still be liable to a fine as you had not given all the information they want.
I threw mine in the bin. I did'nt even read it. I treated it as junk mail and I don't want to take part, my choice, simple as.
If I've committed an 'offence' just for choosing not to take part then bring it on. When they directly address to me (it was to the 'occupier') then I will send them my notice as per TPUC format.
Remember the words of David Icke "They only have power through our aquiesence"!

[Mister_m]

Correct me if I'm wrong but you'd still be liable to a fine as you had not given all the information they want.
I threw mine in the bin. I did'nt even read it. I treated it as junk mail and I don't want to take part, my choice, simple as.
If I've committed an 'offence' just for choosing not to take part then bring it on. When they directly address to me (it was to the 'occupier') then I will send them my notice as per TPUC format.
Remember the words of David Icke "They only have power through our aquiesence"!

Indeed, but i still value the need for future generations to look up the information. So therefore i don't mind giving them my name and address, so a future researcher can look this up in 100 years.

[Champion the Wonderhorse]

Correct me if I'm wrong but you'd still be liable to a fine as you had not given all the information they want.
I threw mine in the bin. I did'nt even read it. I treated it as junk mail and I don't want to take part, my choice, simple as.
If I've committed an 'offence' just for choosing not to take part then bring it on. When they directly address to me (it was to the 'occupier') then I will send them my notice as per TPUC format.
Remember the words of David Icke "They only have power through our aquiesence"!

Indeed, but i still value the need for future generations to look up the information. So therefore i don't mind giving them my name and address, so a future researcher can look this up in 100 years.

If only that would be the true reason Mister_m. But I fear ..............it is not.

[Mister_m]

Hence why only giving information that would be of use to a future genealogist.

[Setras]

I am booking into a camping site and spending the night in a tent with the purer half in this relationship and the dog......

[morgs59]

According to a video on the john harris presentation you don't have to legally tell a police officer your name, especially if you are not doing anything wrong. Also in that presentation he explains the difference between a police 'officer' and a police man/woman. In fact it is quite an informative presentation as he explains that when you register your car it then belongs to the state..not you. Believe it or not same with your children,when you register their birth you hand them over to the state. That is why social services can take them away. He goes on to explain that Great Britain is a company and registered at companies house,as is the police force,the Courts and a whole lot more. Makes you wonder if we have been asleep for 100 years doesn't it?

[morgs59]

Sorry if my post above causes confusion it is in reply to sarlic on page 2

[Lord Sidious]

Here is an example of when it is not illegal to refuse to ''help'' the police.

This is from the TPUC forum, not my own investigation.
Whether this has been overturned or not, I don't know, but it is a good read, just to see how the law works and the judges make their decisions.


RICE v. CONNOLLY.

QUEEN'S BENCH DIVISION

[1966] 2 QB 414, [1966] 2 All ER 649, [1966] 3 WLR 17, 130 JP 322

HEARING-DATES: 3 May 1966

3 May 1966

CATCHWORDS:
Criminal Law -- Obstructing constable when in the execution of his duty -- Refusal to answer questions -- Whether wilful obstruction -- Police
Act 1964 (c. 48), s. 51 (3).

HEADNOTE:
The appellant was seen by police officers in the early hours of the morning behaving suspiciously in an area where on the same night breaking
offences had taken place. On being questioned he refused to say where he was going or where he had come from. He refused to give his full
name and address, though he did give a name and the name of a road, which were not untrue. He refused to accompany the police to a police
box for identification purposes, saying, "If you want me, you will have to arrest me". He was arrested and charged with wilfully obstructing the
police contrary to s. 51 (3) * of the Act of 1964. On appeal it was conceded that "wilfully" imported something done without lawful excuse.

* Section 51 (3), so far as material, provides: "Any person who... wilfully obstructs a constable in the execution of his duty... shall be guilty of
an offence..."

Held: although every citizen had a moral or social duty to assist the police, there was no relevant legal duty to that effect in the circumstances
of the present case, and the appellant had been entitled to decline to answer the questions put to him and (prior to his arrest) to accompany
the police officer on request to the police box to establish identity; accordingly, in the circumstances, "wilful obstruction" by the appellant was
not established, although he had been obstructive, because no obstruction without lawful excuse had been established (see p. 652, letters D
and I, post).

Meaning of "obstruction" stated in Hinchcliffe v. Sheldon ([1955] 3 All E.R. at p. 408, letter F) applied.

Per JAMES, J.: I would not go so far as to say that there may not be circumstances in which the manner of a person together with his silence
could amount to an obstruction of the police within s. 51 (3) of the Police Act 1964 (see p. 652, letter I, to p. 653, letter A, post).

Appeal allowed.

NOTES:
There is real distinction between a case where there is merely a refusal to answer questions and a case where false information in given (see p.
652, letters B and C, post).

As to obstructing the police in the execution of their duty, see 10 HALSBURY'S LAWS (3rd Edn.) 634, para. 1207; and for cases on the subject,
see 15 DIGEST (Repl.) 853, 854, 8213-8219.

As to a constable's right to assistance from private persons, see 30 HALSBURY'S LAWS (3rd Edn.) 142, 143, para. 231.

For the Police Act 1964, s. 51, see 44 HALSBURY'S STATUTES (2nd Edn.) 924.

CASES-REF-TO:

Hinchcliffe v. Sheldon, [1955] 3 All E.R. 406; [1955] 1 W.L.R. 1017; 120 J.P. 13; 15 Digest (Repl.) 854, 8217.

INTRODUCTION:
Case Stated. This was a Case Stated by W. A. SIME, ESQ., Q.C., in respect of his adjudication as Recorder of Grimsby Brough Quarter Sessions
sitting at Grimsby on May 20, 1965. On that day the appellant, Leonard Rice, appeared before the recorder on appeal against a certain
conviction at the Grimsby Borough Magistrates' Court on an information laid by the respondent, Thomas Connolly, an inspector of police, for
having on Mar. 8, 1965, in Victor Street in the county borough of Grimsby wilfully obstructed Oliver Baillie a constable of the Grimsby Borough
Police Force in the due execution of his duty, contrary to s. 51 (3) of the Police Act 1964. The conduct alleged to amount to obstruction
included refusing to accompany the constable to a police box for identification. The recorder dismissed the appeal and the appellant being
dissatisfied with the said determination of his appeal as being erroneous in point of law requested the recorder to state a Case for the opinion of
the High Court. The facts are summarised in the judgment of LORD PARKER, C.J.

The contentions before the recorder were as follows. For the appellant it was contended that although a police officer acting in the execution
of his duty was entitled to ask a citizen questions, including questions as to his name and address, there was no legal duty on the citizen, in
the absence of some obligation imposed by statute (and there was no such statute applicable in the present case) to answer such questions,
nor in the absence of some statutory duty (and there was none in the present case) was there any duty on a citizen to accompany a police
officer anywhere in order that his identity might be investigated; the citizen had a right to refuse to answer the questions put to him by the
constable and to refuse to accompany him to the police box; it followed, so it was contended, that the constable could not lawfully require
answers to his questions and could not lawfully require the appellant to accompany him to the police box and that the appellant's conduct had
not amounted to an obstruction of the constable in the execution of his duty. For the respondent it was contended that at common law the
citizen had a duty to assist the police in the investigation of crime and that there was therefore a legal duty on the appellant to answer the
constable's questions and to accompany him to the police box for the purpose stated, that the appellant had not discharged that legal duty and
that he had, therefore, obstructed the constable in the execution of his duty.

The recorder's opinion is set out at p. 651, letter D, post. The question of law for the opinion of the High Court was whether the recorder was
right in finding that the conduct of the appellant amounted to a wilful obstruction of the constable in the due execution of his duty.

COUNSEL:
Geoffrey Lane, Q.C., and E. F. Jowitt for the appellant.H. A. Skinner, Q.C., and David Barker for the respondent.

PANEL: Lord Parker, C.J., Marshall and James, JJ.

JUDGMENTBY-1: LORD PARKER, C.J.

JUDGMENT-1:
LORD PARKER, C.J.: In the early hours of the morning n(1) of Mar. 8, 1965, Police Constable Baillie was out on patrol duty on his pedal cycle in
and around Oxford Street, Grimsby. A number of breaking offences had been committed that night, and the officer was looking out to see if he
could see anyone behaving suspiciously. One indeed of these breakings had been committed quite close to where he was, within the previous
forty-five minutes. He saw a man who turned out to be the appellant behaving suspiciously, looking into shop windows, looking round, seeing
the constable and moving up a side street, coming back later from the side street and going along looking at further shops, and keeping a wary
eye on the constable. A time came when Police Constable Baillie, who had by then been joined by another police constable, went up and
stopped the appellant. Police Constable Baillie asked where he was going, and the appellant ignored the inquiry, though he heard it. The police
constable again asked him where he was going and where he had come from and for his name and address, whereupon the appellant replied:
"Give me a good reason why I should". In due course the appellant was allowed to walk away, and when he had got a little distance away he
stopped to light his pipe; the police officers then saw that he had got a cut on his finger. They went up to him again, and again Police
Constable Baillie asked for his name and address. After again being asked a second time, he merely replied: "Rice, Convamore Road". That
incidentally was true as far as it went. The police constable said that he wanted his full name and address, and the appellant refused to give it.
Finally the police constable asked the appellant to accompany him to a police box to confirm his identity, whereupon the appellant replied:
"Look, son, I am not moving from this spot. If you want me you will have to arrest me"; thereupon the police constable arrested him and gave
as the ground for arrest that he had obstructed him in the execution of his duty in that he refused to say where he was going, where he had
come from and had refused to give his full name and address, and had refused to accompany him to the police box. Those were the facts as
found by the recorder, with these additions, that throughout the appellant's manner had been sarcastic and awkward, that when, long after the
arrest, he was seen by an inspector, the appellant said:

n(1) The time was about 12.45 a.m.

"I have been arrested. You cannot de-arrest me. It might be worth a bob or two to me. I've done nothing wrong. I am arrested, what are you
going to do?"
Lastly it is found that in fact the appellant never was charged with any of the breaking offences in the neighbourhood, nor were there ever any
grounds for suspecting that he was guilty of any of them. It was in those circumstances that the recorder expressed his decision in these
terms:

"I was of the opinion that on the facts as stated above and having regard to those set out in para. [5] (vii) [i.e., the remarks made after arrest
to the inspector] the appellant had deliberately intended to distract Police Constable Baillie from his duties and had thereby wilfully obstructed
Police Constable Baillie in the due execution of his duty and was guilty of the offence charged. I therefore dismiss the appeal."
The question left for the opinion of the court is whether the recorder was right in finding that the conduct of the appellant on the facts stated
amounted to a wilful obstruction of the police constable in the due execution of his duty.

The statute creating the alleged offence in this case is s. 51 (3) of the Police Act 1964, which increases the penalties for assaults on police
constables and obstruction of them in the execution of their duty, but otherwise preserves largely as offences those which appeared in earlier
legislation n(2). What the prosecution have to prove is that there was an obstructing of a constable, that the constable was at the time acting
in the execution of his duty, and that the person obstructing did so wilfully. To carry the matter a little further, it is in my view clear that to
"obstruct" in s. 51 (3) is to do any act which makes it more difficult for the police to carry out their duty. That description of obstructing I take
from the case of Hinchcliffe v. Sheldon n(3). It is also in my judgment clear that it is part of the obligations and duties of a police constable to
take all steps which appear to him necessary for keeping the peace, for preventing crime or for protecting property from criminal injury. There is
no exhaustive definition of the powers and obligations of the police, but they are at least those, and they would further include the duty to
detect crime and to bring an offender to justice.

n(2) See s. 12 of the Prevention of Crime Act, 1871, as amended by s. 2 of the Prevention of Crimes Amendment Act, 1885; 5 HALSBURY'S
STATUTES (2nd Edn.) 873, 915. Both s. 12 and the Act of 1885 are repealed by s. 64 (3) of, and Sch. 10 to, the Police Act 1964. Assaults on
constables are rendered offences by s. 51 of the Act of 1964. The extension of the offence of assult, enacted in s. 12 of the Act of 1871, to
wilfully obstructing a constable in the execution of his duty (which extension was enacted by s. 2 of the Act of 1885) is re-enacted in s. 51 (3)
of the Act of 1964.

n(3) [1955] 3 All E.R. 406 at p. 408, letter F, per LORD GODDARD, C.J.

It is quite clear that the appellant was making it more difficult for the police to carry out their duties, and that the police at the time and
throughout were acting in accordance with their duties. The only remaining element of the alleged offence, and the one on which in my
judgment this case depends, is whether the obstructing of which the appellant was guilty was a wilful obstruction. "Wilful" in this context in my
judgment means not only "intentional" but also connotes something which is done without lawful excuse, and that indeed is conceded by
counsel who appears for the prosecution in this case. Accordingly, the sole question here is whether the appellant had a lawful excuse for
refusing to answer the questions put to him. In my judgment he had. It seems to me quite clear that though every citizen has a moral duty or,
if you like, a social duty to assist the police, there is no legal duty to that effect, and indeed the whole basis of the common law is that right of
the individual to refuse to answer questions put to him by persons in authority, and a refusal to accompany those in authority to any particular
place, short, of course, of arrest. Counsel for the respondent has pointed out that it is undoubtedly an obstruction, and has been so held, for a
person questioned by the police to tell a "cock-and-bull" story, to put the police off by giving them false information, and I think he would say:
well, what is the real distinction, it is very little away from giving false information to giving no information at all; if that does in fact make it
more difficult for the police to carry out their duties then there is a wilful obstruction. In my judgment there is all the difference in the world
between deliberately telling a false story, something which on no view a citizen has a right to do, and preserving silence or refusing to answer,
something which he has every right to do. Accordingly, in my judgment, looked on in that perfectly general way, it was not shown that the
refusal of the appellant to answer the questions or to accompany the police officer in the first instance to the police box was an obstruction
without lawful excuse.

I would add this, that for my part I have very grave doubt whether the recorder was approaching the case on that basis. I think that the
recorder had in mind that though the appellant had a perfect right to refuse to answer questions, his whole conduct in this instance and the
answers he did give were such as to be a deliberate obstruction to the police. I say that for this reason, that he went out of his way to find
that the appellant's manner throughout was sarcastic and awkward. He went on to recite that extraordinary attitude taken up by the appellant
after arrest, in the conversation with the police inspector, and finally he said in his opinion that the appellant had deliberately intended to
distract Police Constable Baillie from his duties. I cannot help feeling that the recorder here was giving full effect to the law as I understand it
to be, but also was saying that the appellant's whole attitude and behaviour amounted to a distracting of the police constable from his duties.
However, there are certain difficulties in this in that neither counsel before us today has suggested that that is the true view of the recorder's
decision in this case, and indeed counsel for the respondent has invited us to deal with the matter on the more general basis. Finally, I do see
myself difficulties in upholding the recorder's decision on that ground, if that be the true ground of his decision. In the first place it would require
conduct going further than what happened in this case to establish an obstruction, and secondly one of the matters, and apparently an
important matter in the recorder's view, was the appellant's behaviour after his arrest, in front of the inspector; this was something long after
the event, which could not be evidence of the awkward behaviour, if it was awkward, of the appellant at the time of the incident itself. In
these circumstances I have come to the conclusion that this appeal succeeds.

JUDGMENTBY-2: MARSHALL, J.

JUDGMENT-2:
MARSHALL, J.: I agree. In order to uphold this conviction it appears to me that one has to assent to the proposition that where a citizen is
acting merely within his legal rights, he is thereby committing a criminal offence. I cannot see that the manner in which he does it can make any
difference whatsoever, and for the reasons given by LORD PARKER, C.J., I agree that this appeal should be allowed.

JUDGMENTBY-3: JAMES, J.

JUDGMENT-3:
JAMES, J.: For the reasons given by LORD PARKER, C.J., I also agree that this appeal should be allowed. For my own part I would only add this,
that I would not go so far as to say that there may not be circumstances in which the manner of a person together with his silence could
amount to an obstruction within the section; whether they do remains to be decided in any case that happens hereafter, not in this case, in
which it has not been argued.

DISPOSITION:
Appeal allowed. Conviction quashed.

SOLICITORS:
Middleton, Lewis & Co., agents for H. K. & H. S. Bloomer & Co., Great Grimsby (for the appellant); Sharpe, Pritchard & Co., agents for Town
Clerk, Great Grimsby (for the respondent).

[aikya]

Correct me if I'm wrong but you'd still be liable to a fine as you had not given all the information they want.
I threw mine in the bin. I did'nt even read it. I treated it as junk mail and I don't want to take part, my choice, simple as.
If I've committed an 'offence' just for choosing not to take part then bring it on. When they directly address to me (it was to the 'occupier') then I will send them my notice as per TPUC format.
Remember the words of David Icke "They only have power through our aquiesence"!

Indeed, but i still value the need for future generations to look up the information. So therefore i don't mind giving them my name and address, so a future researcher can look this up in 100 years.

IMHO the information will be there for future generations.....birth records, electoral roll, so many other records of information now exist compared to the past.

Personally, while I appreciate the need to have historical data, I'm not going to consent to being a slave in order to do that.

[ulli]

Don't know if this is off-topic, and I don't mean it as a joke.

But is it true that in order for the census to recognize a religion a minimum of 15,000 people have to fill it out in the
census form?

A few years back more than 15,000 declared themselves as Jedis in the UK, making it a recognized religion.

[fopa]

I filled mine out and ensured that every tick, letter extended out of the box. Therefore they wont be able to electronically read it and someone will have to manually key it in, thus maintaining a job for someone/

[Lord Sidious]

According to a video on the john harris presentation you don't have to legally tell a police officer your name, especially if you are not doing anything wrong. Also in that presentation he explains the difference between a police 'officer' and a police man/woman. In fact it is quite an informative presentation as he explains that when you register your car it then belongs to the state..not you. Believe it or not same with your children,when you register their birth you hand them over to the state. That is why social services can take them away. He goes on to explain that Great Britain is a company and registered at companies house,as is the police force,the Courts and a whole lot more. Makes you wonder if we have been asleep for 100 years doesn't it?

Here are some pics from John Harris's site, TPUC.org.


http://www.tpuc.org/files/image/TB1.gif

http://www.tpuc.org/files/image/mojcdmc.JPG

http://www.tpuc.org/files/image/mojlargefull.JPG

http://www.tpuc.org/files/image/MOD_BIS.gif

http://www.tpuc.org/files/image/GOOGLE_BIS.gif

http://www.tpuc.org/files/image/mop123.JPG

http://www.tpuc.org/files/image/mop123.JPG

Make up your own minds, but do some due diligence before you do.

[Bob_2011]

You will notice that there is a bar code on the form that you send back, i accidently put in two extra bar,s in the line, dont know what affect it will have but felt it needed it ,:tape:

[Möbius]

What happens if you can't read or write. Do you still get £1000 fine for not filling it in? I don't think so.

You could argue the case that the Census discriminates against people who can read and write!

Mobius

[ktlight]

Today, I received the above through my letterbox. Failure to respond suggests a fine of up to £1000. I find the whole thing an intrusion, especially as I have read the data is being collected by US Defense Contractor Lockheed-Martin to process.

Whilst I suspect not, does anyone have any advice in terms of mechanisms to avoid this legally.

This is just the sort of thing which raises my dander!

Isn't the imparting of data illegal (Data Protection Act)?

[DoctorWho]

You can always put under "Beliefs" Jedi, Time Lord, or Top Gear. Oh and w1ndmill, I think you stole my TARDIS. :D
Bill "the Doctor"

[jasontorque]

Believe it or not same with your children,when you register their birth you hand them over to the state. That is why social services can take them away. He goes on to explain that Great Britain is a company and registered at companies house,as is the police force,the Courts and a whole lot more. Makes you wonder if we have been asleep for 100 years doesn't it?

Thank you for this fascinating information. Do you know if you are able to deregister yourself (or children) and what the implications are in terms of travel, healthcare, etc, thereafter? Dr. Carol Rosin (http://www.peaceinspace.com/founder.htm) was interviewed by Mel Fabregas on his Veritas Show (http://www.veritasshow.com/) last week where she mentioned the information from Garry Davis and his World Citizenship (http://www.worldservice.org/update.html?s=4) and Passport (http://www.worldgovernment.org/docpass.html?s=1). There is a lot of information to take in, but I wondered if anyone has looked into this..

[Lord Sidious]

Believe it or not same with your children,when you register their birth you hand them over to the state. That is why social services can take them away. He goes on to explain that Great Britain is a company and registered at companies house,as is the police force,the Courts and a whole lot more. Makes you wonder if we have been asleep for 100 years doesn't it?

Thank you for this fascinating information. Do you know if you are able to deregister yourself (or children) and what the implications are in terms of travel, healthcare, etc, thereafter? Dr. Carol Rosin (http://www.peaceinspace.com/founder.htm) was interviewed by Mel Fabregas on his Veritas Show (http://www.veritasshow.com/) last week where she mentioned the information from Garry Davis and his World Citizenship (http://www.worldservice.org/update.html?s=4) and Passport (http://www.worldgovernment.org/docpass.html?s=1). There is a lot of information to take in, but I wondered if anyone has looked into this..

Some people claim to have done that, but I wouldn't deregister the children.
The fact that you have a legal entity is part of your remedy for there being no money.
Deregister and you lose the remedy.
In fact, the remedy would escheat to the state.

[ktlight]

Have you read 'How I clobbered Every Bureaucratic Cash-confiscatory Agency Known to Man' by Mary Elizabeth: Croft. There is quite a large amount of information on the Internet on every aspect, but there does not seem to be a 'to do' list to get there. It involves understanding Sovereign Law, the Magna Carta, presenting affidavits and other legal documents in the right order and timescale, being prepared to to defend yourself in court because, it seems they will definitely take you there, understanding how to defend yourself in the courts. And, you will have to use Blacks Law Dictionary to understand the meanings of legality. LEGAL is not LAWFUL.

All courts are hired; some Councils and organisations unlawfully hire them for the day. So there is quite a bit to learn about how to handle yourself in them.

The reason for getting into Sovereign Law is because all of the Corporations/Countries/Governments provide statues under which they operate Maritime Law (hence birth(berth) certificates and the reason why everything registered is in UPPER CASE.

I understand that the amount that is raised on the Stock Exchange per person (ie. every Man, Woman and Child), would provide each of us with £400,000 pa in interest alone (it may be even more). If a way to access this should every occur to me, I would surely tell everyone because I feel out of this £400,000, each person would support the right thing and therefore there would be an end to war. I trust people to organise themselves responsibly.

Unfortunately or maybe even fortunately, as already stated, there are no steps to follow.

I hope this helps.

[Lord Sidious]

Have you read 'How I clobbered Every Bureaucratic Cash-confiscatory Agency Known to Man' by Mary Elizabeth: Croft. There is quite a large amount of information on the Internet on every aspect, but there does not seem to be a 'to do' list to get there. It involves understanding Sovereign Law, the Magna Carta, presenting affidavits and other legal documents in the right order and timescale, being prepared to to defend yourself in court because, it seems they will definitely take you there, understanding how to defend yourself in the courts. And, you will have to use Blacks Law Dictionary to understand the meanings of legality. LEGAL is not LAWFUL.

All courts are hired; some Councils and organisations unlawfully hire them for the day. So there is quite a bit to learn about how to handle yourself in them.

The reason for getting into Sovereign Law is because all of the Corporations/Countries/Governments provide statues under which they operate Maritime Law (hence birth(berth) certificates and the reason why everything registered is in UPPER CASE.

I understand that the amount that is raised on the Stock Exchange per person (ie. every Man, Woman and Child), would provide each of us with £400,000 pa in interest alone (it may be even more). If a way to access this should every occur to me, I would surely tell everyone because I feel out of this £400,000, each person would support the right thing and therefore there would be an end to war. I trust people to organise themselves responsibly.

Unfortunately or maybe even fortunately, as already stated, there are no steps to follow.

I hope this helps.

Anyone that says they know how much we are all worth is a nugget, don't listen to them.
How would they know how much was converted to securities and hypothecated?
How would they know what interest rate is on those securities?
And so on.

[ktlight]

Hi Lord Sidious
Well I read or saw it in a vid on one of the knowledgeable sites, either Mary Elizabeth: Croft or TPUC, or maybe even UK Column, or even somewhere entirely different, maybe in Canada. I have no reason to doubt it. Given the numbers in existence in UK, just imagine the figure per person, ie man, woman and child, that would be raised on each birth (berth) certificate in order to pay for our overheads in governmental terms. I don't think income tax would cover health, us and the wars, etc. etc.

Also, to those who question the genealogist access, databases on each of us already exist.

So, I do not understand the need for a census, except that TPTB are cross-referencing their accounts.

[Lord Sidious]

Hi Lord Sidious
Well I read or saw it in a vid on one of the knowledgeable sites, either Mary Elizabeth: Croft or TPUC, or maybe even UK Column, or even somewhere entirely different, maybe in Canada. I have no reason to doubt it. Given the numbers in existence in UK, just imagine the figure per person, ie man, woman and child, that would be raised on each birth (berth) certificate in order to pay for our overheads in governmental terms. I don't think income tax would cover health, us and the wars, etc. etc.

Also, to those who question the genealogist access, databases on each of us already exist.

So, I do not understand the need for a census, except that TPTB are cross-referencing their accounts.

View the census as a stock take.

[ktlight]

Hi Lord Sidious
Well I read or saw it in a vid on one of the knowledgeable sites, either Mary Elizabeth: Croft or TPUC, or maybe even UK Column, or even somewhere entirely different, maybe in Canada. I have no reason to doubt it. Given the numbers in existence in UK, just imagine the figure per person, ie man, woman and child, that would be raised on each birth (berth) certificate in order to pay for our overheads in governmental terms. I don't think income tax would cover health, us and the wars, etc. etc.

Also, to those who question the genealogist access, databases on each of us already exist.

So, I do not understand the need for a census, except that TPTB are cross-referencing their accounts.

View the census as a stock take.

Hello again Lord Sidious
I couldn't possibly. We are not cattle, nor are we really sheep, but maybe that's your humour.
Are TPTB perhaps desiring to take stock in order to reduce numbers?

I hope the link below works. It demonstrates what I feel.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ca0kcfkn8jc&feature=watch_response

[Fred259]

Hi Lord Sidious
Well I read or saw it in a vid on one of the knowledgeable sites, either Mary Elizabeth: Croft or TPUC, or maybe even UK Column, or even somewhere entirely different, maybe in Canada. I have no reason to doubt it. Given the numbers in existence in UK, just imagine the figure per person, ie man, woman and child, that would be raised on each birth (berth) certificate in order to pay for our overheads in governmental terms. I don't think income tax would cover health, us and the wars, etc. etc.

Also, to those who question the genealogist access, databases on each of us already exist.

So, I do not understand the need for a census, except that TPTB are cross-referencing their accounts.

View the census as a stock take.

Lord S

Have you heard anything about this being the last census, ie they are not planning to hold another in 10 years time. Why would this be?

The council already have all this information on householders. Doctors, midwives and the NHS know the number births. Doctors must sign a death certificate, so a daily tally should be available at all times.

Catherine Austin Fits speaks of the sheer scale of Lockheed - Martin. They are a bit more than a defence contractor, they just about run the US government. Yes it’s a private corporation, yes it’s Military industrial complex. Do they really care about you?

Austin-Fits has grave reservations about the US census; she says this is what the Nazis did. Those were her words, quite unusual for a woman first and foremost, but a former US politician as well. It’s not the language of a Lady or a politician, but I sure respect her for saying it.

I’m going to go out on a limb here, laugh if you want… Does anyone think the census could be part of RFID. The NHS and doctors surgeries are pushing big time implanted contraceptives for younger girls, 16+ and sometimes younger. This generation think it's cool, and so chipping then becomes the norm. Could the census from be just the first step along this path. Why is the government so determined to get our details. Why is this census so important, something is behind this?

Now we have retinal scanning at Manchester Airport. I was at Manchester Airport when all that nonsense with taking fluids on aircraft started. A young mother had expressed some milk into a bottle for the flight, and security made her drink her own milk. (I think you call it wet feeding in the US) It’s incredible what the government get away with.

It might be better to dodge the census, and accept the fine. If they ever actually fine you just say you will pay £2.00 per week.

[Lord Sidious]

Hi Lord Sidious
Well I read or saw it in a vid on one of the knowledgeable sites, either Mary Elizabeth: Croft or TPUC, or maybe even UK Column, or even somewhere entirely different, maybe in Canada. I have no reason to doubt it. Given the numbers in existence in UK, just imagine the figure per person, ie man, woman and child, that would be raised on each birth (berth) certificate in order to pay for our overheads in governmental terms. I don't think income tax would cover health, us and the wars, etc. etc.

Also, to those who question the genealogist access, databases on each of us already exist.

So, I do not understand the need for a census, except that TPTB are cross-referencing their accounts.

View the census as a stock take.

Hello again Lord Sidious
I couldn't possibly. We are not cattle, nor are we really sheep, but maybe that's your humour.
Are TPTB perhaps desiring to take stock in order to reduce numbers?

I hope the link below works. It demonstrates what I feel.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ca0kcfkn8jc&feature=watch_response

You can view this two ways, either yes, you are viewed as cattle by the powers that are soon not to be, or stock as in any stock, not livestock.




Hi Lord Sidious
Well I read or saw it in a vid on one of the knowledgeable sites, either Mary Elizabeth: Croft or TPUC, or maybe even UK Column, or even somewhere entirely different, maybe in Canada. I have no reason to doubt it. Given the numbers in existence in UK, just imagine the figure per person, ie man, woman and child, that would be raised on each birth (berth) certificate in order to pay for our overheads in governmental terms. I don't think income tax would cover health, us and the wars, etc. etc.

Also, to those who question the genealogist access, databases on each of us already exist.

So, I do not understand the need for a census, except that TPTB are cross-referencing their accounts.

View the census as a stock take.

Lord S

Have you heard anything about this being the last census, ie they are not planning to hold another in 10 years time. Why would this be?

The council already have all this information on householders. Doctors, midwives and the NHS know the number births. Doctors must sign a death certificate, so a daily tally should be available at all times.

Catherine Austin Fits speaks of the sheer scale of Lockheed - Martin. They are a bit more than a defence contractor, they just about run the US government. Yes it’s a private corporation, yes it’s Military industrial complex. Do they really care about you?

Austin-Fits has grave reservations about the US census; she says this is what the Nazis did. Those were her words, quite unusual for a woman first and foremost, but a former US politician as well. It’s not the language of a Lady or a politician, but I sure respect her for saying it.

I’m going to go out on a limb here, laugh if you want… Does anyone think the census could be part of RFID. The NHS and doctors surgeries are pushing big time implanted contraceptives for younger girls, 16+ and sometimes younger. This generation think it's cool, and so chipping then becomes the norm. Could the census from be just the first step along this path. Why is the government so determined to get our details. Why is this census so important, something is behind this?

Now we have retinal scanning at Manchester Airport. I was at Manchester Airport when all that nonsense with taking fluids on aircraft started. A young mother had expressed some milk into a bottle for the flight, and security made her drink her own milk. (I think you call it wet feeding in the US) It’s incredible what the government get away with.

It might be better to dodge the census, and accept the fine. If they ever actually fine you just say you will pay £2.00 per week.

I have not heard that about the census.
What Austin Fitts says is of no interest to me, that sounds like the usual crap.
And even if they did run a census, they only had 6 years of peace.
One of the things they do need the census for, is adjustments to payments.
Remember they hypothecate all the strawmans documents? The birth certificate and so on?
They need to keep the accounts up to date due to them having to keep records and make payments.
They need to know for example, are you still worth what you were last time?

[Circe]

Enjoy!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8LWi8ueBHZ8&feature=player_detailpage

[ktlight]

Hi Lord Sidious
Well I read or saw it in a vid on one of the knowledgeable sites, either Mary Elizabeth: Croft or TPUC, or maybe even UK Column, or even somewhere entirely different, maybe in Canada. I have no reason to doubt it. Given the numbers in existence in UK, just imagine the figure per person, ie man, woman and child, that would be raised on each birth (berth) certificate in order to pay for our overheads in governmental terms. I don't think income tax would cover health, us and the wars, etc. etc.

Also, to those who question the genealogist access, databases on each of us already exist.

So, I do not understand the need for a census, except that TPTB are cross-referencing their accounts.

View the census as a stock take.

Hello again Lord Sidious
I couldn't possibly. We are not cattle, nor are we really sheep, but maybe that's your humour.
Are TPTB perhaps desiring to take stock in order to reduce numbers?

I hope the link below works. It demonstrates what I feel.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ca0kcfkn8jc&feature=watch_response

You can view this two ways, either yes, you are viewed as cattle by the powers that are soon not to be, or stock as in any stock, not livestock.




Hi Lord Sidious
Well I read or saw it in a vid on one of the knowledgeable sites, either Mary Elizabeth: Croft or TPUC, or maybe even UK Column, or even somewhere entirely different, maybe in Canada. I have no reason to doubt it. Given the numbers in existence in UK, just imagine the figure per person, ie man, woman and child, that would be raised on each birth (berth) certificate in order to pay for our overheads in governmental terms. I don't think income tax would cover health, us and the wars, etc. etc.

Also, to those who question the genealogist access, databases on each of us already exist.

So, I do not understand the need for a census, except that TPTB are cross-referencing their accounts.

View the census as a stock take.

Lord S

Have you heard anything about this being the last census, ie they are not planning to hold another in 10 years time. Why would this be?

The council already have all this information on householders. Doctors, midwives and the NHS know the number births. Doctors must sign a death certificate, so a daily tally should be available at all times.

Catherine Austin Fits speaks of the sheer scale of Lockheed - Martin. They are a bit more than a defence contractor, they just about run the US government. Yes it’s a private corporation, yes it’s Military industrial complex. Do they really care about you?

Austin-Fits has grave reservations about the US census; she says this is what the Nazis did. Those were her words, quite unusual for a woman first and foremost, but a former US politician as well. It’s not the language of a Lady or a politician, but I sure respect her for saying it.

I’m going to go out on a limb here, laugh if you want… Does anyone think the census could be part of RFID. The NHS and doctors surgeries are pushing big time implanted contraceptives for younger girls, 16+ and sometimes younger. This generation think it's cool, and so chipping then becomes the norm. Could the census from be just the first step along this path. Why is the government so determined to get our details. Why is this census so important, something is behind this?

Now we have retinal scanning at Manchester Airport. I was at Manchester Airport when all that nonsense with taking fluids on aircraft started. A young mother had expressed some milk into a bottle for the flight, and security made her drink her own milk. (I think you call it wet feeding in the US) It’s incredible what the government get away with.

It might be better to dodge the census, and accept the fine. If they ever actually fine you just say you will pay £2.00 per week.

I have not heard that about the census.
What Austin Fitts says is of no interest to me, that sounds like the usual crap.
And even if they did run a census, they only had 6 years of peace.
One of the things they do need the census for, is adjustments to payments.
Remember they hypothecate all the strawmans documents? The birth certificate and so on?
They need to keep the accounts up to date due to them having to keep records and make payments.
They need to know for example, are you still worth what you were last time?

There was a short news item in July 2010, when it was stated that the 2011 census could be the last, because it is too costly - at least, I think that was the speculative reason.
Perhaps they want to rehypothocate all the strawman documents, in order to increase the debt and therefore payments to itself. Maybe that's the reason for the census.
I am not sure what you mean regarding keeping accounts up to date (in terms of a census), since the record itself exists and should not change, only the figures.

[Lord Sidious]

Hi Lord Sidious
Well I read or saw it in a vid on one of the knowledgeable sites, either Mary Elizabeth: Croft or TPUC, or maybe even UK Column, or even somewhere entirely different, maybe in Canada. I have no reason to doubt it. Given the numbers in existence in UK, just imagine the figure per person, ie man, woman and child, that would be raised on each birth (berth) certificate in order to pay for our overheads in governmental terms. I don't think income tax would cover health, us and the wars, etc. etc.

Also, to those who question the genealogist access, databases on each of us already exist.

So, I do not understand the need for a census, except that TPTB are cross-referencing their accounts.

View the census as a stock take.

Hello again Lord Sidious
I couldn't possibly. We are not cattle, nor are we really sheep, but maybe that's your humour.
Are TPTB perhaps desiring to take stock in order to reduce numbers?

I hope the link below works. It demonstrates what I feel.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ca0kcfkn8jc&feature=watch_response

You can view this two ways, either yes, you are viewed as cattle by the powers that are soon not to be, or stock as in any stock, not livestock.




Hi Lord Sidious
Well I read or saw it in a vid on one of the knowledgeable sites, either Mary Elizabeth: Croft or TPUC, or maybe even UK Column, or even somewhere entirely different, maybe in Canada. I have no reason to doubt it. Given the numbers in existence in UK, just imagine the figure per person, ie man, woman and child, that would be raised on each birth (berth) certificate in order to pay for our overheads in governmental terms. I don't think income tax would cover health, us and the wars, etc. etc.

Also, to those who question the genealogist access, databases on each of us already exist.

So, I do not understand the need for a census, except that TPTB are cross-referencing their accounts.

View the census as a stock take.

Lord S

Have you heard anything about this being the last census, ie they are not planning to hold another in 10 years time. Why would this be?

The council already have all this information on householders. Doctors, midwives and the NHS know the number births. Doctors must sign a death certificate, so a daily tally should be available at all times.

Catherine Austin Fits speaks of the sheer scale of Lockheed - Martin. They are a bit more than a defence contractor, they just about run the US government. Yes it’s a private corporation, yes it’s Military industrial complex. Do they really care about you?

Austin-Fits has grave reservations about the US census; she says this is what the Nazis did. Those were her words, quite unusual for a woman first and foremost, but a former US politician as well. It’s not the language of a Lady or a politician, but I sure respect her for saying it.

I’m going to go out on a limb here, laugh if you want… Does anyone think the census could be part of RFID. The NHS and doctors surgeries are pushing big time implanted contraceptives for younger girls, 16+ and sometimes younger. This generation think it's cool, and so chipping then becomes the norm. Could the census from be just the first step along this path. Why is the government so determined to get our details. Why is this census so important, something is behind this?

Now we have retinal scanning at Manchester Airport. I was at Manchester Airport when all that nonsense with taking fluids on aircraft started. A young mother had expressed some milk into a bottle for the flight, and security made her drink her own milk. (I think you call it wet feeding in the US) It’s incredible what the government get away with.

It might be better to dodge the census, and accept the fine. If they ever actually fine you just say you will pay £2.00 per week.

I have not heard that about the census.
What Austin Fitts says is of no interest to me, that sounds like the usual crap.
And even if they did run a census, they only had 6 years of peace.
One of the things they do need the census for, is adjustments to payments.
Remember they hypothecate all the strawmans documents? The birth certificate and so on?
They need to keep the accounts up to date due to them having to keep records and make payments.
They need to know for example, are you still worth what you were last time?

There was a short news item in July 2010, when it was stated that the 2011 census could be the last, because it is too costly - at least, I think that was the speculative reason.
Perhaps they want to rehypothocate all the strawman documents, in order to increase the debt and therefore payments to itself. Maybe that's the reason for the census.
I am not sure what you mean regarding keeping accounts up to date (in terms of a census), since the record itself exists and should not change, only the figures.

Take for one example taxation.
When you are born and they have your birth registered, the statisticians approximate your lifetime worth by looking at your parents.
They know the % chance that you will fall in the same categories as them and so they can then calculate what the value of your strawmans securities should be.
Taxation is not how they run the nation, that is interest payments on the debts of the corporation masquerading as government.
Taxation is a yearly adjustment to your strawmans account, but the census is a much larger adjustment in that they accumulate enough overall info to predict sickness, death, accumulation of more education and so on.
Do you see what I mean now?

[ktlight]

Hi Lord Sidious
I trust you won't mind me precis-ing the ongoing discussion down to your latest response.
"Take for one example taxation.
When you are born and they have your birth registered, the statisticians approximate your lifetime worth by looking at your parents. They must get very messed up statistics indeed, in light of all the wars (male deaths in particular) and, anyway these details are in a database, are they not, otherwise how do they do their accounting? I found out quite early on that statistics is only 2% certain, from an ex-boyfriend who was studying the subject.
They know the % chance that you will fall in the same categories as them and so they can then calculate what the value of your strawmans securities should be.
Taxation is not how they run the nation, that is interest payments on the debts of the corporation masquerading as government. Quite right, because they already have your monetary value which is worth millions or even trillions.
Taxation is a yearly adjustment to your strawmans account, but the census is a much larger adjustment in that they accumulate enough overall info to predict sickness, death, accumulation of more education and so on. Are you saying here that without the census, they would not be able to predict? And how are they able to predict sickness and death? That information, as far as it is possible to predict health issues, can be obtained from medical records and already is on medical databases.

Do you see what I mean now?" I personally see the census as utterly insane and am therefore unable to contribute.

On another matter, you clearly are full of information and it is obvious that you enjoy to teach. Do you know anything about One-Heaven? If so, please start a new thread for another lively debate. It would probably also help jasontorque and others. Unless, of course you want to continue with debating the census issue.

[Lord Sidious]

Hi Lord Sidious
I trust you won't mind me precis-ing the ongoing discussion down to your latest response.
"Take for one example taxation.
When you are born and they have your birth registered, the statisticians approximate your lifetime worth by looking at your parents. They must get very messed up statistics indeed, in light of all the wars (male deaths in particular) and, anyway these details are in a database, are they not, otherwise how do they do their accounting? I found out quite early on that statistics is only 2% certain, from an ex-boyfriend who was studying the subject.
They know the % chance that you will fall in the same categories as them and so they can then calculate what the value of your strawmans securities should be.
Taxation is not how they run the nation, that is interest payments on the debts of the corporation masquerading as government. Quite right, because they already have your monetary value which is worth millions or even trillions.
Taxation is a yearly adjustment to your strawmans account, but the census is a much larger adjustment in that they accumulate enough overall info to predict sickness, death, accumulation of more education and so on. Are you saying here that without the census, they would not be able to predict? And how are they able to predict sickness and death? That information, as far as it is possible to predict health issues, can be obtained from medical records and already is on medical databases.

Do you see what I mean now?" I personally see the census as utterly insane and am therefore unable to contribute.

On another matter, you clearly are full of information and it is obvious that you enjoy to teach. Do you know anything about One-Heaven? If so, please start a new thread for another lively debate. It would probably also help jasontorque and others. Unless, of course you want to continue with debating the census issue.

I would agree that the statistics must get messed up, but they are experienced and have the resources to unmess them.
The comment about stats being 2% would lend more weight to them needing to use a technique to check their predictions.
The further ahead you predict, the lower the accuracy would be.
They can predict sickness based on many things, smoking being an obvious one.
Think of this too, they would be able to predict the need for hospitals and the like from census results as well, thereby determining how much more they need to borrow.
I am not sure what you mean by one heaven. Give me some more info and we can see what happens.

[ktlight]

Hi Lord Sidious
I trust you won't mind me precis-ing the ongoing discussion down to your latest response.
"Take for one example taxation.
When you are born and they have your birth registered, the statisticians approximate your lifetime worth by looking at your parents. They must get very messed up statistics indeed, in light of all the wars (male deaths in particular) and, anyway these details are in a database, are they not, otherwise how do they do their accounting? I found out quite early on that statistics is only 2% certain, from an ex-boyfriend who was studying the subject.
They know the % chance that you will fall in the same categories as them and so they can then calculate what the value of your strawmans securities should be.
Taxation is not how they run the nation, that is interest payments on the debts of the corporation masquerading as government. Quite right, because they already have your monetary value which is worth millions or even trillions.
Taxation is a yearly adjustment to your strawmans account, but the census is a much larger adjustment in that they accumulate enough overall info to predict sickness, death, accumulation of more education and so on. Are you saying here that without the census, they would not be able to predict? And how are they able to predict sickness and death? That information, as far as it is possible to predict health issues, can be obtained from medical records and already is on medical databases.

Do you see what I mean now?" I personally see the census as utterly insane and am therefore unable to contribute.

On another matter, you clearly are full of information and it is obvious that you enjoy to teach. Do you know anything about One-Heaven? If so, please start a new thread for another lively debate. It would probably also help jasontorque and others. Unless, of course you want to continue with debating the census issue.

I would agree that the statistics must get messed up, but they are experienced and have the resources to unmess them.
The comment about stats being 2% would lend more weight to them needing to use a technique to check their predictions.
The further ahead you predict, the lower the accuracy would be.
They can predict sickness based on many things, smoking being an obvious one.
Think of this too, they would be able to predict the need for hospitals and the like from census results as well, thereby determining how much more they need to borrow.
I am not sure what you mean by one heaven. Give me some more info and we can see what happens.

The certainty percentage of 2% was done in UCL some years ago and the question was something around 'What is the probability of a person suffering a recurring mental illness."

One Heaven is based in Australia and organised by an Irish man who was/is assisted by 40 notaries to create alternative world governing laws.
What I am pasting here is only one page and there are several supporting websites. They are in the process of issuing Notices to ALL members of the BAR and, indeed, have issued Notices to all ALL governments and the Vatican in order to fulfil biblical prophecy. You will gather this from the latter paras. If you want to know more, I will provide you with a link. You will consider that it is either total genius or total insanity. Will be interesting to know your take.


As it is written, it is believed by many that a time will come --known by various names such as "The Apocalypse", "Revelations", "The End of Days"--when the world as we know it will end.
While almost all major religious faiths believe in the truth that this time will come and that a new age will arise following the "End of the World", only a handful of misguided individuals truly believe the "End of Days" represents the physical end of planet Earth.
Instead, almost all religions provide their own philosophical interpretations of some kind of "new age" or era representing most significantly an end to the evil, the arrogance and the willful ignorance we continue to see so prevalent in this world today.
Therefore, the concept of The Apocalypse to many is neither an unfamiliar concept, nor possible a terribly fearful concept but a time that could herald a great awakening of possibilities, ethics and maturing of the Homo Sapien species relationship between ourselves, our planet and the universe as a whole.
What is unfamiliar and challenging to belief is the demonstration that this time is not only the true coming of the Apocalypse but that the process has already begun as represented --in part-- by the seven (7) writs of the Apocalypse.
Ritus Apocalytica - The 7 Writs of the Apocalypse
Consistent with the most sacred Covenant of One Heaven and the arrival of the 1st Notary of One Heaven--the 1st horseman--the seven (7) writs known as Ritus Apocalyptica and the Seven Writs of the Apocalypse represent Divine Notice that the Day of Divine Agreement and Understanding on the Roman Time [December 21st 2009] also known as UCA E8:Y3208:8:A1:S1:M27:D1 has come.
These seven (7) writs represent fair notice to all spirits, angels, demons, men, women, persons and corporations.
In particular, specific writs have also been served upon those corporations that presently hold the greatest influence and power in this world and have been offered Divine Remedy through the Covenant of One Heaven.
Therefore, no argument by any spirit, angel, demon, man, woman, person or corporation that they were not properly served and did not know that the Apocalypse has commenced may be legally, nor reasonably argued.
If men, women, persons, corporations, spirits, angels or demons choose to dishonor the Notice of Divine Agreement and Understanding it shall be by their own free will and not through any false excuse of ignorance nor lack of service.
The Apocalypse is Divine Legal Foreclosure on Willful Ignorance and Arrogance
Finally, if doubt still remains as to the validity of this time and these instruments representing the true commencement of the Apocalypse, it should assist in understanding that the Apocalypse represents Divine Notice and Legal Foreclosure on Wilful Ignorance and Arrogance--especially when instanced into the power of corporations--not the condemnation of souls.
According to Divine Law, the 1st Divine Notice has now been duly served, as was prophecised and written two thousand years ago. Let those who remain arrogant and ignorant in power refuse to acknowledge the validity of these notices and demonstrate dishonor consistent with their disgraceful management of this world.
A time then will come, upon the 2nd Divine Notice upon the Roman Time [December 21st 2010] also known as the year 3209 where their dishonor will be noted for all time.
If such arrogance and ignorance to their own rules, their own history and their own beliefs continues then a day will come soon after when these corporations shall be dust--as Divine Law and Foreclosure will have been duly rendered.

[The One]

The first census in 1790 asked just six questions: the name of the head of the household, the number of free white males older than 16, the number of free white males younger than 16, the number of free white females, the number of other free persons, and the number of slaves.The government has become a mechanism for distributing largess, and your census form is your ticket

[ktlight]

Today, I received the above through my letterbox. Failure to respond suggests a fine of up to £1000. I find the whole thing an intrusion, especially as I have read the data is being collected by US Defense Contractor Lockheed-Martin to process.

Whilst I suspect not, does anyone have any advice in terms of mechanisms to avoid this legally.

This is just the sort of thing which raises my dander!

Hi Jasontorque
Please watch this video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4eEd-jgCVI8

[Blue]

Hi,

I have just spotted an ad in The Big Issue from the network of buddhist organisations asking people to tick the box for buddhism if your religion is "kindness, mindfulness, meditation, non-violence" so "the community gets the services it needs"! Cute PR idea, not a bad idea - if you dont lose the will to live whilst filling it out.

blue

[ktlight]

Hi Jasontorque
I found this on the David Icke forum and perhaps we could all consider the various options to take:


"Oh and if Chronic Sick or Disabled then i'm pretty certain it is an offence to harrass a person at their home.

One www.southendvoice.com and Lawful Rebellion has right ideas and i was watching a video on LR of a conversation with a Solicitor at the ONS.Danny Shine's video recording of conversation with ONS legal as below in a nutshell,go see on LR.

No law to say you have to open your post, it clearly states on rear of envelope if undelivered return to this address- which is another oddity if no one resident then how could it be returned?!

Respond by law - Householder to respond-however there is no connection between The Occupier and the Householder in the Census questionaire and Census Legislation

Despite it's an offence under Data Protection Act to put someone elses details on census against their wishes-the Statute Law could supercede it.There is some ground to cover here.

Maxim in law ignorance is no defence in law, so we are all defenceless

It is in English not Legalise-meaning questionaire is in plain English yet the Occupier is a term in Law.

Lawyers make their money out of 'crafting' laws to the Advantage of the Authorities. According to ONS,Lawyers make money from contradicting the interpretations of Law in Court. (Lies then?)

It is a crime to do nothing.

According to the ONS if your completed Census is lost in the post, you have to prove that it was indeed lost in the post-this means it is not the Post Office's responsibility. It is yours from when you post it until it hits the Census factory-how odd.

The Authorities cannot prosecute a House. If people decide to not fill in the Census, do not answer the door or communicate with any of the Census Body Corporate knocking on your doors or any cards or further letters through letterbox- it will be very difficult to prosecute somebody.

So NO CONTRACT

Taped ON FRONT OF CENSUS ENVELOPE and pop it in the post.

Or you could put blank sheets of paper in the envelope and get a Proof of Posting of destination.

NO CONTRACT are only words to utter and do not open post if they come to door do not open have No Contract with them. Don't leave doors unlocked and no windows open. It could at worst continue for 6 months thereafter. Just as with Debt Collectors except there is a Statute Law with Census. No Contract you don't give name and details to strangers you do not know if they catch you returning to building. Harrassment comes to mind here.

If you tarnish and interfere with Census form do not enter into contract with name and no false informations-cos they could get you on that.

People are being paid to come to knock on your doors. Human Rights Act Article 8 states a right to peaceful living at your home, go check it out. But who on earth will there be to protect us all,no one? So go Protect yourselves."

[Lettherebelight]

I really appreciate everyone's insights and understanding into the laws that govern us, thanks everyone for sharing.

Having said that, I find the semantics used in law convoluted and nigh impossible for a plain thinking individual to comprehend. Like the Lisbon Treaty...the print made purposely small and so voluminous that hardly anyone felt inclined to give it a read!

In the light of the maxim that ignorance is no defense in law, could someone in the know please direct me to a link that could provide me with my basic rights and responsibilities as someone residing in this country (uk)? Thanks.
Should I not refer to myself as 'a person'? Should I eschew my title? Is all that maritime jargon (discussed by Jordan Maxwell) true?

[FutureLeFunk]

Recycling bin! :p

[ktlight]

I really appreciate everyone's insights and understanding into the laws that govern us, thanks everyone for sharing.

Having said that, I find the semantics used in law convoluted and nigh impossible for a plain thinking individual to comprehend. Like the Lisbon Treaty...the print made purposely small and so voluminous that hardly anyone felt inclined to give it a read!

In the light of the maxim that ignorance is no defense in law, could someone in the know please direct me to a link that could provide me with my basic rights and responsibilities as someone residing in this country (uk)? Thanks.
Should I not refer to myself as 'a person'? Should I eschew my title? Is all that maritime jargon (discussed by Jordan Maxwell) true?

I would suggest tpuc.org, John Harris, in the first instance.
Then there is FMOTL - this is a link http://www.fmotl.com/Fundamentals.htm#BM9

The difference between lawful and legal is that law has to do with sovereignty and legal has to do with maritime law (statutes).

When you have learned what you need to know, you will understand how to refer to yourself.

Hope this helps.

[Lettherebelight]

Thanks for that, Ktlight, been reading this...very good stuff!

Holy cow...if I'm reading this correctly, I 'lawfully' do not require a license to drive a car? And it is not necessary to register my vehicle?

Wow, we're wasting a lot of money doin stuff we don't have to.

[Lord Sidious]

Thanks for that, Ktlight, been reading this...very good stuff!

Holy cow...if I'm reading this correctly, I 'lawfully' do not require a license to drive a car? And it is not necessary to register my vehicle?

Wow, we're wasting a lot of money doin stuff we don't have to.

You read it correctly, but don't think it will be easy if you choose to follow that path.

[Platinum]

Thanks guys for this excellent discussion.

I'm another one who has no intention of complying with this abhorrent intrusion known as the census.

Though much as I appreciate the well documented legal methods for fighting it by some very educated and intelligent non-persons ( ;) ) here, I struggle to get my head around some of the legalese involved, as well as simply not having the free time to engage in such a legal battle with the so called "authorities".

In the past, I've had various post addressed to "The Occupier", such as tv license and electoral registration etc, all threatening fines and legal action for non-compliance. I do not own a one-eyed-monster, so have no need for a tv license, and I do not sanction the sham of a political system by tendering a vote, therefore have no need to register.

I get a few 'reminders' from time to time, yet never has the threat of fines or legal action been followed up. In that light, I am inclined to just do as I always do, and not even open, let alone return such distasteful mail.

I never answer my door anyway unless I am expecting someone, so won't be likely to encounter their follow up callers.

Also, I live in a very large house, which is split into many apartments/flats, with a communal front door / post box / entrance hall etc, with all mail delivered to the one box. One idea I had, was to return the census unopened, and write something like: "This is a large house of independent flats. Flat number ** is presently unoccupied."

What do you think of this idea?

Baring in mind also that I will genuinely be away from home on the 27th anyway, as I am every Sunday, what is the general consensus (or should that be 'con-census') to my likelihood of avoiding any punitive action?

After all, how can "The Occupier" be issued with a summons to appear before a court?

Also, for Lord Sidious, can I please ask why you believe it to be "dishonourable" to exercise the right not to open or return unsolicited mail?

In my view it is dishonourable to send out unsolicited mail, not to disregard it when received.

Thanks in advance. :)

[Setras]

Q17. This question is left intentionally blank. Go to 18........ write £4.8 Trillion national debt.....

[Lion Monkey]

Hi folks.

Interesting discussion going on here. However, I think we might be looking at the wrong strategy.

Not sure if this has already been mentioned, but here is a link to a good alternative way of dealing with the census. We fill in the data and return it, but we do it REALLY badly, lots of mistakes, crossing out (cross out all the barcodes ;)) and upside down writing so that it cant be read by automatic computer and has to be inputted by a human/ biological robot. This will mean the whole process will get very expensive for Lockheed Martin, the evil company contracted to do it, but we wont get fined and local authorities wont lose any money.

There is more detail on the whole thing here: http://www.peacenewslog.info/2011/03/how-to-fill-in-your-census-form-without-lockheed-martin-profiting-short-version/

Sure, it will take us some time to do it, but we can use it as an exercise in creative slack-conformity (lots of doodling, using left hand, spilling things on the form....... prizes for the most original thoughts here!)

xxx

[Setras]

put the dog or cats paw into an ink pad and place their foot on the signature box....

laminate the book shut and certify it a private document for your eyes only......

[Lord Sidious]

Also, for Lord Sidious, can I please ask why you believe it to be "dishonourable" to exercise the right not to open or return unsolicited mail?

In my view it is dishonourable to send out unsolicited mail, not to disregard it when received.

Thanks in advance. :)

If you go back in the thread you will see that I outlined the four types of response.
Ignorance is silence and is one of the two that is considered to be dishonourable.
And one thing we need to stop doing, is using our definition of words and terms when dealing with THEM.
Their words and terms are different to ours.
Please don't take that as an attack or the like, I am trying to make a point, that is all.


Hi folks.

Interesting discussion going on here. However, I think we might be looking at the wrong strategy.

Not sure if this has already been mentioned, but here is a link to a good alternative way of dealing with the census. We fill in the data and return it, but we do it REALLY badly, lots of mistakes, crossing out (cross out all the barcodes ;)) and upside down writing so that it cant be read by automatic computer and has to be inputted by a human/ biological robot. This will mean the whole process will get very expensive for Lockheed Martin, the evil company contracted to do it, but we wont get fined and local authorities wont lose any money.

There is more detail on the whole thing here: http://www.peacenewslog.info/2011/03/how-to-fill-in-your-census-form-without-lockheed-martin-profiting-short-version/

Sure, it will take us some time to do it, but we can use it as an exercise in creative slack-conformity (lots of doodling, using left hand, spilling things on the form....... prizes for the most original thoughts here!)

xxx

That is one way, but they could possibly fine you, or attempt to for doing so.
I think that you need to make a declaration at the end and that is the trap.
The better way is to refuse to do it and then when they attempt to fine you, insist on your day in court.
Clog their courts up with crap and they will get the idea.

If you guys truly want to be left alone, there are ways to go about it.

[Platinum]

If you go back in the thread you will see that I outlined the four types of response.
Ignorance is silence and is one of the two that is considered to be dishonourable.
And one thing we need to stop doing, is using our definition of words and terms when dealing with THEM.
Their words and terms are different to ours.
Please don't take that as an attack or the like, I am trying to make a point, that is all.

No offence taken good sir. Even if it were an 'attack', I have a tendency not to take things personally. It's a waste of energy. :)

Sure, I understand the concepts of your four examples. Just don't personally agree that it is dishonourable to disregard unsolicited mail, is all.

Are you inferring that your examples are from their viewpoint rather than your own, or perhaps both? If you do feel that way yourself, would you mind sparing a moment of your time to help me understand why you feel that to be dishonourable?

Thanks. :)

[Lord Sidious]

If you go back in the thread you will see that I outlined the four types of response.
Ignorance is silence and is one of the two that is considered to be dishonourable.
And one thing we need to stop doing, is using our definition of words and terms when dealing with THEM.
Their words and terms are different to ours.
Please don't take that as an attack or the like, I am trying to make a point, that is all.

No offence taken good sir. Even if it were an 'attack', I have a tendency not to take things personally. It's a waste of energy. :)

Sure, I understand the concepts of your four examples. Just don't personally agree that it is dishonourable to disregard unsolicited mail, is all.

Are you inferring that your examples are from their viewpoint rather than your own, or perhaps both? If you do feel that way yourself, would you mind sparing a moment of your time to help me understand why you feel that to be dishonourable?

Thanks. :)

Good, sometimes the words mean different things to the readers eyes than the poster intended.
Yes, that is the way they regard things, so if I am to play their game and in a lot of cases I have no choice, I need to know what their rules are.
Whether the mail is unsolicited or not, silence is taken as agreement, or dishonour.
The thing is this, if I asked you a question face to face and you ignored me, do you think it would affect me in a positive or negative way?
Most of the legal system is taken from times past and things that were considered to be the way things are done.
The alleged authorities have little, if any honour, but that means we have to show we are better than them.
Junk mail and the like is different.
Responding to the census could be as easy as writing over the envelope ''Not known at this address, try the British Army of the Rhine'' and putting that back into the post.

[Platinum]

Yes, that is the way they regard things, so if I am to play their game and in a lot of cases I have no choice, I need to know what their rules are.
Whether the mail is unsolicited or not, silence is taken as agreement, or dishonour.
The thing is this, if I asked you a question face to face and you ignored me, do you think it would affect me in a positive or negative way?


Right, I see where you're coming from.



Responding to the census could be as easy as writing over the envelope ''Not known at this address, try the British Army of the Rhine'' and putting that back into the post.

Amusing. :)

Just that, in responding, I'm acknowledging receipt. This is the thing I'm wary of. Unless I do, short of their using 'other' methods, in theory they do not know whether or not said rented property is even "Occupied".

I do value your opinion though; would you mind sharing your thoughts on the idea I had above please?


I live in a very large house, which is split into many apartments/flats, with a communal front door / post box / entrance hall etc, with all mail delivered to the one box. One idea I had, was to return the census unopened, and write something like: "This is a large house of independent flats. Flat number ** is presently unoccupied."

What do you think of this idea?

Thanks for your time Lord Sidious. :)

[Lord Sidious]

Yes, that is the way they regard things, so if I am to play their game and in a lot of cases I have no choice, I need to know what their rules are.
Whether the mail is unsolicited or not, silence is taken as agreement, or dishonour.
The thing is this, if I asked you a question face to face and you ignored me, do you think it would affect me in a positive or negative way?


Right, I see where you're coming from.



Responding to the census could be as easy as writing over the envelope ''Not known at this address, try the British Army of the Rhine'' and putting that back into the post.

Amusing. :)

Just that, in responding, I'm acknowledging receipt. This is the thing I'm wary of. Unless I do, short of their using 'other' methods, in theory they do not know whether or not said rented property is even "Occupied".

I do value your opinion though; would you mind sharing your thoughts on the idea I had above please?


I live in a very large house, which is split into many apartments/flats, with a communal front door / post box / entrance hall etc, with all mail delivered to the one box. One idea I had, was to return the census unopened, and write something like: "This is a large house of independent flats. Flat number ** is presently unoccupied."

What do you think of this idea?

Thanks for your time Lord Sidious. :)

If you are asking me whaat do I think of you writing on it aboutt unit x is unoccupied, but you lease it, I would say , bad idea, very bad idea.
Never, never lie.
Oh, and my time is not valuable, that is one thing I have a lot of, but you are welcome to it.

[Platinum]

If you are asking me what do I think of you writing on it about unit x is unoccupied, but you lease it, I would say , bad idea, very bad idea.
Never, never lie.

Thanks for your thoughts. Will scrub that idea off the list of options; I must agree that it is lacking in honour.


Oh, and my time is not valuable, that is one thing I have a lot of, but you are welcome to it.

Much appreciated. :)