being judgmental

[manny]

who are we to judge.

my first person i argued with was on chat.
this person called the people that are not awake idiots.


i laid into him,and said there are no idiots.
just undereducated people.

i came to this forum to find like minded people.
what i found was people who are much higher educated and evolved than myself.


will there always be a hierarchy.
or will people just excpect what a person is.

Don't worry nugget, you aren't one of the posters that causes issues on the forum, so I doubt anyone feels a need to censure or censor you.

now i don,t feel the need for this comment.
what is a nugget?
a idiot?
what is a idiot?
someone who is under educated?

imo.if you know more than another person,and they make mistakes,and they don,t quite get to the piont.as quickly as you expect.

then educate that person.
does that person not have a right to be informed.
take your time.

is it easier to disregard that person.
but hey if that person takes on a little of what you say and learns by it.

does that not make you feel that you have achieved something.

there are no nuggets and their are no idiots.

one path one goal
let go of the ego.

[Lord Sidious]

Assumptions are the root cause of all screwups.

[Belle]

I'll start with a couple of quotes that mean a lot to me.

Writes Eckhart Tolle in his second book, Stillness Speaks:

"Your acceptance of what is takes you to a deeper level where your inner state as well as your sense of self no longer depend on the mind’s judgments of “good” or “bad.”
When you say “yes” to the “isness” of life, when you accept this moment as it is, you can feel a sense of spaciousness within you that is deeply peaceful."

Quote from Rumi: "Out beyond the ideas of wrongdoing and right doing, there is a field. I'll meet you there."

I've been working on non-judgment for over a year now, and I still have a long way to go. Judging others is so deeply ingrained in people that many are not even aware they are doing it. The trick is to not judge them in return, but love them anyway.

manny, you are a beautiful soul who speaks from the heart...that means more than any outside knowledge or education. You are real and true to your nature, not trying to appear to be something you are not. You are a gift to us and I thank you.

I think Lord Sidious uses "nugget" as a term of endearment. In which case I say, much love to you, nugget!

[MariaDine]

who are we to judge.

my first person i argued with was on chat.
this person called the people that are not awake idiots.


i laid into him,and said there are no idiots.
just undereducated people.

i came to this forum to find like minded people.
what i found was people who are much higher educated and evolved than myself.


will there always be a hierarchy.
or will people just excpect what a person is.

Don't worry nugget, you aren't one of the posters that causes issues on the forum, so I doubt anyone feels a need to censure or censor you.

now i don,t feel the need for this comment.
what is a nugget?
a idiot?
what is a idiot?
someone who is under educated?

imo.if you know more than another person,and they make mistakes,and they don,t quite get to the piont.as quickly as you expect.

then educate that person.
does that person not have a right to be informed.
take your time.

is it easier to disregard that person.
but hey if that person takes on a little of what you say and learns by it.

does that not make you feel that you have achieved something.

there are no nuggets and their are no idiots.

one path one goal
let go of the ego.

:) Don't worry yourself with him, Manny ...
We all Love you Gold Nugget

http://www.cartoonstock.com/lowres/bve0051l.jpg

Namasté

[Darla Ken Pearce]

When you are about to say, "Idiot" to someone. Stop. How can you define, Idiot, so well ~ once you get it ~ you will not say it anymore. We only know and define things through personal experience ; ) Go forth now and throw flower petals and not bombs. You, too, must walk this path barefoot and sometimes without a single candle for light. xoxoxox

[modwiz]

When you are about to say, "Idiot" to someone. Stop. How can you define, Idiot, so well ~ once you get it ~ you will not say it anymore. We only know and define things through personal experience ; ) Go forth now and throw flower petals and not bombs. You, too, must walk this path barefoot and sometimes without a single candle for light. xoxoxox

Really beautiful imagery here Darla. :hug:

[Roseheart]

I have been thinking on this myself.
When I joined, I just wanted to share my experience and listen to others stories and learn things...
I discovered there are many opinions and agenda's here.
We are all just words on a screen and it's very easy to judge if one feels superior learning/intellect/experience/spirituality.
You never know who's fingertips type.
I would advise caution when assuming anything here.
Respect all.
There are many paths to enlightenment.
Thanks for this thread Manny. x

[truthseekerdan]

"Let anyone among you who is without sin be the first to throw a stone." ~ Jesus

"When you judge another, you do not define them, you define yourself." ~ Wayne Dyer

[Lord Sidious]

I think there is no need to be judgemental, just shoot em all and let god sort em out.
Hang on, is that right?
Seem to have a short circuit somewhere here, back in a bit.

[king anthony]

...just shoot em all...

Where is the love, compassion and understanding? :)

[Carmody]

"Let anyone among you who is without sin be the first to throw a stone." ~ Jesus

"When you judge another, you do not define them, you define yourself." ~ Wayne Dyer

My line or take on that, which I use, is:

"Judgment is a Fool's Game, it anchors one in the self lies of their own past ....and prevents further evolution of the self."

[Lord Sidious]

...just shoot em all...

Where is the love, compassion and understanding? :)

I had all those repossessed a while back, sorry.
That death star was one expensive son of a gun, let me tell ya.

[Chicodoodoo]

I judge myself all the time. Because of this self-judgment, I am constantly changing, hopefully improving, so my judgments change also. I believe in the wisdom of the Golden Rule, so I do not judge others in ways that I would not want them to judge me. But that should not diminish the fact that judgment is one of the most useful characteristics any human possesses.

[Carmody]

I think there is no need to be judgemental, just shoot em all and let god sort em out.
Hang on, is that right?
Seem to have a short circuit somewhere here, back in a bit.

According to the Cistercian writer Caesar of Heisterbach, one of the leaders of the Crusader army, the Papal legate Arnaud-Amaury, when asked by a Crusader how to distinguish the Cathars from the Catholics, answered: "Caedite eos! Novit enim Dominus qui sunt eius" – "Kill them [all]! Surely the Lord discerns which [ones] are his".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albigensian_Crusade

[Teakai]

who are we to judge.

my first person i argued with was on chat.
this person called the people that are not awake idiots.


i laid into him,and said there are no idiots.
just undereducated people.

i came to this forum to find like minded people.
what i found was people who are much higher educated and evolved than myself.


will there always be a hierarchy.
or will people just excpect what a person is.

Don't worry nugget, you aren't one of the posters that causes issues on the forum, so I doubt anyone feels a need to censure or censor you.

now i don,t feel the need for this comment.
what is a nugget?
a idiot?
what is a idiot?
someone who is under educated?

imo.if you know more than another person,and they make mistakes,and they don,t quite get to the piont.as quickly as you expect.

then educate that person.
does that person not have a right to be informed.
take your time.

is it easier to disregard that person.
but hey if that person takes on a little of what you say and learns by it.

does that not make you feel that you have achieved something.

there are no nuggets and their are no idiots.

one path one goal
let go of the ego.

Manny - your post is judgmental.

You're judging judgmental people and finding their behaviour unsatisfactory.

I'm just sayin', because if, as you say 'let go of the ego' then you gotta recognise the ego and how it works.

If you had let go of ego - then judgmental people wouldn't affect you. Their judgments would be their problem, not yours.

:)
¤=[Post Update]=¤


I think there is no need to be judgemental, just shoot em all and let god sort em out.
Hang on, is that right?
Seem to have a short circuit somewhere here, back in a bit.

So...you going for a sainthood as well as a lordship, M'lord?

;)

[indiana]

....................

[SKAWF]

i'm not against being judgemental.
you can make good and bad judgements.
i try to make it a simple yes or no.
and then its mostly about whether i engage or not.
and i dont judge the person, or the actions (unless it directly affects me),
its about, on balance, how does it feel?

if theres a negative, i dont engage, if its positive, i do
and if its neither one or the other i proceed on full alert till i know one way or the other.
ive every right to do that. so has everyone else.
it would be nice to live in a world where we didnt have to be this way,
but unfortunately there are some dangerous people in the world,
and those who dont exercise good judgements might be in trouble.

i would suggest getting used to the idea of wieghing EVERYTHING up.
every aspect of our lives. taking 100% control of our own experience.
even wieghing up the decision making process.

if you're not the one to take charge, then who else is?

steve

[indiana]

...............

[slipknotted]

judgemental can be mixed up with knowing a wrong before it turns out to be a correct judgement.

[aroundthetable]

IMO as long as we are embodied we will always be subject to hierarchies, but in real life everything is equal, the plants, the animals and the humans, all have the same divine spark in them. :)

[TimelessDimensions]

be your own judge

[dan i el]

Thanks for starting this thread, manny. I think, as has already been succinctly pointed out, that we make judgements all the time and often this means of others.

Some people may claim it is simply down to not having "let go" of the ego if someone's judgement perturbs but personally speaking, I just think that is just egoism in itself lol - and perhaps quite pretentious too; especially if the adviser is found to pounce on views that don't fit their own paradigm and declare them as "idiocy"..but it is a digression. apologies.

More concerning than overly judgemental internet buddy buddy braggards is, imho, when they begin to coalesce into an amorphous blob and act in some manner of bully gang or new age vigilante force on a forum otherwise devoted to free thought.

[oceanz]

I consider no one to be dumb. I just think some, for whatever reason, have an ineffective use of their intelligence.

[Anchor]

The only judgement that counts is your own judgement of yourself.

If other people judge you - then really its just advice, and you can take it or leave it.

[heyokah]

Quote from Rumi: "Out beyond the ideas of wrongdoing and right doing, there is a field. I'll meet you there."



Thank you Belle, for this beautiful Rumi quote.
It lead me to this article in the New Day Herald of today

http://www.msia.org/newdayherald/?p=1197

[celestia]

Judgements only help me to perceive that there are some people who need more love and understanding than others...

[Jayke]

In my experience all judgements do is affect the flow of energy between two things

Lets say two people are stood chest deep in a lake, when the communication between them is free of judgements it's like a current of water begins to effortlessly swirl between the two. Whenever a judgement is projected outside of ourselves it's like taking a giant block of ice and dumping it in the lake between us, forming a partial shield between you and them...so now instead of water flowing effortlessly, the current meets resistance, it doesn't flow as easily, expression becomes stifled and people get frustrated as they find it increasingly hard to relate to each other.

Removing the blockages is what we call forgiveness, in order to remove that giant block of ice we first have to forgive it and we do that by recognising that the ice is just as beautiful as the water...see the beauty in judgements, learn it's lesson, allow it to reflect back something of value and then allow that warmth that you're now feeling for it to melt the ice, let it melt and become one with the ocean, feel that release in pressure as it melts and notice how things begin to flow much more smoothly for you again. And we can forgive other peoples judgements just as easily as we can forgive our own ensuring positive channels of communication can remain open and flowing :)

[siggy]

I try to say 'who am I to judge anyone?'.
It's still a work in progress, but at least I'm trying :)

[Lord Sidious]

I try to say 'who am I to judge anyone?'.
It's still a work in progress, but at least I'm trying :)

True story. Welcome aboard our fine cruise ship, the Avalon Paradise.
Taking in all destinations from Earth to Aldebaran.

[Maria Stade]

The only thing we can Judge is our self !
All others that tries to judge is just having a opinion from their point of understanding or programing !

Love your self, let the judgement go its a program.

:luv:

[dan i el]

If anyone were to claim to me that they don't judge other people, I would think them to be either deluding themselves or knowingly speaking falsely. That would be my immediate judgement of the statement they made.

Who can actually say with integrity that they are above making judgements? It might sound nice but, at the very minimum, it is simply untrue, for the vast majority of the species.

ImO, the key is to not be overly judgemental.

[greybeard]

What other people think of me is none of my business.

[Teakai]

If anyone were to claim to me that they don't judge other people, I would think them to be either deluding themselves or knowingly speaking falsely. That would be my immediate judgement of the statement they made.

Who can actually say with integrity that they are above making judgements? It might sound nice but, at the very minimum, it is simply untrue, for the vast majority of the species.

ImO, the key is to not be overly judgemental.

Hi Dan i el,
I don't judge people.

I observe them and their behaviour - but I don't judge them. Their behaviour may sometimes be unhealthy, or cruel - but that is because they haven't yet realised who they are.

If one is living from soul, knowing we are all soul - there is no relevance in judging people or their actions. I think I would be deluding myself by judging people.
:)

[dan i el]

If anyone were to claim to me that they don't judge other people, I would think them to be either deluding themselves or knowingly speaking falsely. That would be my immediate judgement of the statement they made.

Who can actually say with integrity that they are above making judgements? It might sound nice but, at the very minimum, it is simply untrue, for the vast majority of the species.

ImO, the key is to not be overly judgemental.

Hi Dan i el,
I don't judge people.

I observe them and their behaviour - but I don't judge them. Their behaviour may sometimes be unhealthy, or cruel - but that is because they haven't yet realised who they are.

If one is living from soul, knowing we are all soul - there is no relevance in judging people or their actions. I think I would be deluding myself by judging people.
:)

sorry to say it but I think you are deluding yourself..or it is a semantic question between "behavioral observation" and "judgement"

If you conclude it is "because they don't know who they are yet" - then you are making a judgement of them.

¤=[Post Update]=¤


What other people think of me is none of my business.

Sometimes outside input can foster personal growth

[manny]

thank you all.
each day is a learning curve.
my wish is that i learn and develop and in return pass on my knowledge one day.
if that makes sense.
your all nuggetts lol

[Jake]

thank you all.
each day is a learning curve.
my wish is that i learn and develop and in return pass on my knowledge one day.
if that makes sense.
your all nuggetts lol


Manny, you are an amazing soul, and we are happy to have you. Your posts are inspiring and from the heart. Thank you... Jake...

[crosby]

Manny, you have to remember that there will always be an upper echelon, no matter where you go. we all have ego's. some are just bigger than others.......but let that be their problem...speak your opinions, ask questions, and hit the ignore button when you feel that someone is belittling you. there are a lot of avalonians who are here to learn. we're not scientists, physicists, presidents, lawyers, doctors, indian chiefs, just everyday people who want too know more. keep on your path, and hit the ignore button as much as you want.
warmest regards, corson

[Teakai]

sorry to say it but I think you are deluding yourself..or it is a semantic question between "behavioral observation" and "judgement"
[COLOR="red"]



I disagree - based on dictionary definition.

One may observe something and reach no judgment on it. By judgment here are we talking about determining if something is good or bad, right or wrong?



If you conclude it is "because they don't know who they are yet" - then you are making a judgement of them.[COLOR="red"]



I'm not making any judgment. It is what it is despite any thought I might have on it. People reveal by their behaviour whether they are acting from a state if ego perception or from BEING who they really are.

[Maria Stade]

The one that has come to the place with no judgement, can not judge.
It would be like judging a child spilling milk knowing the coordination is not developed yet.

[crosby]

What other people think of me is none of my business.

Greybeard, i think you are a very clever, honest and wise soul.
regards, corson

[greybeard]

If anyone were to claim to me that they don't judge other people, I would think them to be either deluding themselves or knowingly speaking falsely. That would be my immediate judgement of the statement they made.

Who can actually say with integrity that they are above making judgements? It might sound nice but, at the very minimum, it is simply untrue, for the vast majority of the species.

ImO, the key is to not be overly judgemental.

Hi Dan i el,
I don't judge people.

I observe them and their behaviour - but I don't judge them. Their behaviour may sometimes be unhealthy, or cruel - but that is because they haven't yet realised who they are.

If one is living from soul, knowing we are all soul - there is no relevance in judging people or their actions. I think I would be deluding myself by judging people.
:)

sorry to say it but I think you are deluding yourself..or it is a semantic question between "behavioral observation" and "judgement"

If you conclude it is "because they don't know who they are yet" - then you are making a judgement of them.

¤=[Post Update]=¤


What other people think of me is none of my business.

Sometimes outside input can foster personal growth

The saying was in the context of the thread ie their judgmental thoughts of a me.

It is also possible to observe without any internal dialogue, there is an awareness that sees the action as helpful or not so helpful, appropriate or not so appropriate.
There is just a knowing or a feeling. It not seen as right or wrong which would be judgmental.
There is no praise or condemnation of a person just an action being viewed.

It is a complex subject which has been covered in the "Enlightenment: Ego what is it? how to transcend" thread in the spiritual section.

It requires a change in perception
Shakespeare said "Nothing is right nor wrong till thinking makes it so"
As said it is possible to train yourself to observe, to witness, without internal dialogue.
Eventually the mind falls silent except when it is needed.

Namaste

Ps there is sometimes discernment, a choice can be made, to go there or not to go there.
Its not a put down.
Hope this is helpful

[Anchor]

What other people think of me is none of my business.

Greybeard, i think you are a very clever, honest and wise soul.
regards, corson

That judgement is none of his business - LOL

Even though I agree :)

[manny]

What other people think of me is none of my business.

Greybeard, i think you are a very clever, honest and wise soul.
regards, corson
he is very much so.
whether it be a short sentence or a long verse.
there will be something to take from it.;)

[crosby]

What other people think of me is none of my business.

Greybeard, i think you are a very clever, honest and wise soul.
regards, corson

That judgement is none of his business - LOL

Even though I agree :)

ahhhhh, i see you are clever too......lol
regards, corson

[Teakai]

What other people think of me is none of my business.

Greybeard, i think you are a very clever, honest and wise soul.
regards, corson

That judgement is none of his business - LOL

Even though I agree :)

But...is that a judgment?
If something is, then it is. We may recognise it or not - but we can't judge it because wisdom isn't up for personal interpretation of right/wrong - good/bad.
It just is.

[dan i el]

I disagree - based on dictionary definition.

One may observe something and reach no judgment on it. By judgment here are we talking about determining if something is good or bad, right or wrong?


Such determinations are made as a prelude to forming judgements. It is quite natural, I believe.




I'm not making any judgment. It is what it is despite any thought I might have on it. People reveal by their behaviour whether they are acting from a state if ego perception or from BEING who they really are.

Sorry but I still think it is fluff.. it's my honest judgement. No offence intended.
Sometimes people feel holier or cleaner if they believe they do not make judgements of others, or have moved on from such naturally innate behaviours - I have no problem with that if it works for them without negative connotation, but, nevertheless, I think it is a masquerade. shrugs. Just as one can't exist in a space where there is no thought perpetually, one cannot exist perpetually without making judgements. To claim otherwise is folly.

[crosby]

What other people think of me is none of my business.

Greybeard, i think you are a very clever, honest and wise soul.
regards, corson

That judgement is none of his business - LOL

Even though I agree :)

But...is that a judgment?
If something is, then it is. We may recognise it or not - but we can't judge it because wisdom isn't up for personal interpretation of right/wrong - good/bad.
It just is.

sure it is. there have been very wicked, evil people on this earth who have favored their wisdom, though it be evil or wrong, over what we take wisdom for. personal interpretation is what separates us as good/evil, benign/malignant. you see?
regards, corson

[manny]

sorry to say it but I think you are deluding yourself..or it is a semantic question between "behavioral observation" and "judgement"
[COLOR="red"]



I disagree - based on dictionary definition.

One may observe something and reach no judgment on it. By judgment here are we talking about determining if something is good or bad, right or wrong?



If you conclude it is "because they don't know who they are yet" - then you are making a judgement of them.[COLOR="red"]



I'm not making any judgment. It is what it is despite any thought I might have on it. People reveal by their behaviour whether they are acting from a state if ego perception or from BEING who they really are.
dictionary definition does not hit home with me.
its about personal growth.
all my life i had a big ego that did nothing for me.
its only these last 2 years that i started to understand what the ego was(still don,t).
but being calm and humble has helped me see things in a different way.
being like this has made people around me react differently towards me.
which for me is much better.
when i look around i see many people with a large ego,
the biggest one is when someone trys to belittle someone,which happens often in my work.
had many a arguement.
a person would argue whether he was right or wrong.
and try to belittle me in front of other people.
i thought he was a tosser.
then i stopped and started being calm and humble.
ok if thats what you want go for it.
i did not retaliate.
over the weeks i could see a massive change.
i calmed .
he calmed.
alls not bad;)

[greybeard]

What other people think of me is none of my business.

Greybeard, i think you are a very clever, honest and wise soul.
regards, corson

That judgement is none of his business - LOL

Even though I agree :)

But...is that a judgment?
If something is, then it is. We may recognise it or not - but we can't judge it because wisdom isn't up for personal interpretation of right/wrong - good/bad.
It just is.

I agree it just is.
My view of the word judgment is that it implies wrong doing or right doing, there may be repercussions etc.
If you judge its almost as though you intend taking some action on what yo have observed if only just to comment adversely or otherwise.
The judge would also be taking ub a superior stance to the one being judged --- ie I know better.
There are so many connotations to the "being judgmental"

I like to keep it simple.
And that is "You can notice something without being moved to comment."

Thanks for kind comments, you made me smile and thats good.

Chris

[Teakai]

Sorry but I still think it is fluff.. it's my honest judgement. No offence intended.
Sometimes people feel holier or cleaner if they believe they do not make judgements of others, or have moved on from such naturally innate behaviours - I have no problem with that if it works for them without negative connotation, but, nevertheless, I think it is a masquerade. shrugs. Just as one can't exist in a space where there is no thought perpetually, one cannot exist perpetually without making judgements. To claim otherwise is folly.

No offence taken, Dan i el. And I don't feel particularly holy, either. To me it's got nothing to do with holiness or feeling clean - it's like Maria said, it would be like judging a child for spilling milk.

It's human nature that people can only measure another to the level of their own understanding.

I know this because there was a time I remember specifically which stands out to me, that I could not imagine anybody doing anything for anybody else without personal gain.
Of course, they can and do - I know that now. But no one could have convinced me of it then.

[manny]

i think you have all taken it to a deeper level.
than i understood or intended.
thank you

[Teakai]

sure it is. there have been very wicked, evil people on this earth who have favored their wisdom, though it be evil or wrong, over what we take wisdom for. personal interpretation is what separates us as good/evil, benign/malignant. you see?
regards, corson

Then it's not wisdom.

Wisdom isn't up for personal interpretation - it's either wisdom - or it's not.

[Teakai]

dictionary definition does not hit home with me.
its about personal growth.
all my life i had a big ego that did nothing for me.
its only these last 2 years that i started to understand what the ego was(still don,t).
but being calm and humble has helped me see things in a different way.
being like this has made people around me react differently towards me.
which for me is much better.
when i look around i see many people with a large ego,
the biggest one is when someone trys to belittle someone,which happens often in my work.
had many a arguement.
a person would argue whether he was right or wrong.
and try to belittle me in front of other people.
i thought he was a tosser.
then i stopped and started being calm and humble.
ok if thats what you want go for it.
i did not retaliate.
over the weeks i could see a massive change.
i calmed .
he calmed.
alls not bad;)

Hi Manny - just to say that false humility is also ego.
By saying this I'm not saying that your humility is false.

It goes without saying that if we change our behaviour it will change the dynamics and reactive behaviour of those around us (unless they are not working from ego - in which case they will constantly be who they are despite what other people may do or say.)

[9eagle9]

There is a quantitative that is usually unexplored and that is how to make an assessment vs a judgment. Being able to make an assessment is the better part of discernment. But assessment appears to be like judgment so people tend to stay away from for fear of being or being perceived as judgmental. This teaches us to not trust ourselves for fear of being judgmental and being judged.

Its the difference between the participant ( one who judges) and the observer (the one who is assessing) .

Its also the difference between the person and the behaviors.

If I were to walk into a room and catch someone smearing their own feces on the wall and I said, "You are an idiot; you are smearing your own feces on the wall" , that is a judgment. A personal one. And you become a participant in what will likely shape up to be a conflict.

If I were to walk and state "You are smearing feces on the wall" that is not a judgment but an assessment of the situation. An observation. However the feces smearer would probably take it as a judgement simply because I noticed. This causes about 80 percent of disagreements and conflicts with people. Most of the anxiety I cause people is because I'm observing something they are doing and they are leaping to the conclusion I'm judging them.

One's self authority is based on the ability to be able to assess a situation from an observers stand point without going into judgments and not fearing being called judgemental for you observation.

This is what our le grande social engineering, social conditioning, is based on.

After all it boils down to you simply noticing what others are doing. When we begin to react to what they are doing on an emotional level then we begin to enter the judgement zone. Judgement zones are usually always prejudiced, and don't have much to do with what is occurring in the present.

[dan i el]

Sorry but I still think it is fluff.. it's my honest judgement. No offence intended.
Sometimes people feel holier or cleaner if they believe they do not make judgements of others, or have moved on from such naturally innate behaviours - I have no problem with that if it works for them without negative connotation, but, nevertheless, I think it is a masquerade. shrugs. Just as one can't exist in a space where there is no thought perpetually, one cannot exist perpetually without making judgements. To claim otherwise is folly.

No offence taken, Dan i el. And I don't feel particularly holy, either. To me it's got nothing to do with holiness or feeling clean - it's like Maria said, it would be like judging a child for spilling milk.

It's human nature that people can only measure another to the level of their own understanding.

I know this because there was a time I remember specifically which stands out to me, that I could not imagine anybody doing anything for anybody else without personal gain.
Of course, they can and do - I know that now. But no one could have convinced me of it then.

I don't really truck with the child spilling milk metaphor. Aside from the hierarchical imperative it isn't so relevant to the point I was attempting to drive at. If my child keeps spilling their milk, i would make judgement that perhaps there is a delay in motor coordination development and would dutifully explore why that might be. "Right or wrong" would have no part of it.

Anyhow, we are in a one oared row boat here, as said, my contention is that it is no more than rose tinted spectacles to believe oneself immune to making judgements of others. if you and some others think/feel/believe you have transcended such, then that is great, I just don't think it is so.

[Teakai]

Aside from the hierarchical imperative it isn't so relevant to the point I was attempting to drive at.

Where is the hierarchy?

[dan i el]

There is a quantitative that is usually unexplored and that is how to make an assessment vs a judgment. Being able to make an assessment is the better part of discernment. But assessment appears to be like judgment so people tend to stay away from for fear of being or being perceived as judgmental. This teaches us to not trust ourselves for fear of being judgmental and being judged.

Its the difference between the participant ( one who judges) and the observer (the one who is assessing) .

Its also the difference between the person and the behaviors.

If I were to walk into a room and catch someone smearing their own feces on the wall and I said, "You are an idiot; you are smearing your own feces on the wall" , that is a judgment. A personal one. And you become a participant in what will likely shape up to be a conflict.

If I were to walk and state "You are smearing feces on the wall" that is not a judgment but an assessment of the situation. An observation. However the feces smearer would probably take it as a judgement simply because I noticed. This causes about 80 percent of disagreements and conflicts with people. Most of the anxiety I cause people is because I'm observing something they are doing and they are leaping to the conclusion I'm judging them.

One's self authority is based on the ability to be able to assess a situation from an observers stand point without going into judgments and not fearing being called judgemental for you observation.

This is what our le grande social engineering, social conditioning, is based on.

After all it boils down to you simply noticing what others are doing. When we begin to react to what they are doing on an emotional level then we begin to enter the judgement zone. Judgement zones are usually always prejudiced, and don't have much to do with what is occurring in the present.

What if it was Bobby Sands? J/k

These are interesting points you make and not without scope for thoughtful reflection. But nevertheless, we are still in the arena of semantics

eg. if you only observe and do not judge - then why would you "catch" the person amidst such an act and not just "find" or "see" them . The very word "catch" implies judgement already unconsciously made. shrugs. I think it is just natural tbh

[9eagle9]

ADDING TO THIS .....

Covert and overt judgements:

Coverts are obvious: You are an idiot.

Overts are harder to spot but we are still affected by them. My sister used to overtly judge the condition I kept my house in. That judgement is based on her materialism. I don't paint everyday and lick the baseboards clean hourly like she does. (that's my own judgement seeping out...lol) Another overt is the questioning: When was the last time you made curtains.

This is based on her level of comfort. I'm not Martha Stewart conditioned so she's uncomfortable with me and thus has to change my attitudes so she can be comfortable with me. Yes this is all very trivial but....its ALL very trivial.

. Seeing as she has failed to judge me into a place to where I will make her comfortable (by assuming her attitudes) she arrives here not to visit but to 'help' out. She states she's visiting but who drives eight hours to spend the entire 'visit' cleaning out someone's closet? MY idea of a visit is much different. This is just another form of judgement, something needs to be changed or altered and since overt judgement isn't working she will covertly judge by taking action against what she percieves as a bad situation. She can assume injury when I tell her to stop what she's doing because 'she's only trying to help'. She's not really because there's nothing to be helped, I didn't ask for help, its a covert means of judgment but she can retreat to an injured place when I tell her to stop.

We just concluded a thread about making assumptions about what is best for people based on our perception.

[dan i el]

Aside from the hierarchical imperative it isn't so relevant to the point I was attempting to drive at.

Where is the hierarchy?

I should have written "implied hierarchy"
that of adult and infant

[manny]

dictionary definition does not hit home with me.
its about personal growth.
all my life i had a big ego that did nothing for me.
its only these last 2 years that i started to understand what the ego was(still don,t).
but being calm and humble has helped me see things in a different way.
being like this has made people around me react differently towards me.
which for me is much better.
when i look around i see many people with a large ego,
the biggest one is when someone trys to belittle someone,which happens often in my work.
had many a arguement.
a person would argue whether he was right or wrong.
and try to belittle me in front of other people.
i thought he was a tosser.
then i stopped and started being calm and humble.
ok if thats what you want go for it.
i did not retaliate.
over the weeks i could see a massive change.
i calmed .
he calmed.
alls not bad;)

Hi Manny - just to say that false humility is also ego.
By saying this I'm not saying that your humility is false.

It goes without saying that if we change our behaviour it will change the dynamics and reactive behaviour of those around us (unless they are not working from ego - in which case they will constantly be who they are despite what other people may do or say.)
for me it was not false.
i am who i am.the other person who he is.
i became myself.
and would not give him anything to attack.
i loosened my ego(i think).
not false,just acceptance.
by doing this it has worked out for the both of us.
my thoughts where .you do what you need to do(the other person)
and i,ll do what i need to do.
not as many clashes now.
i did judge him.(a tosser)
but i am wrong .
he is who he is.
and by changinging my behaviour,it also changed his towards me.

[Teakai]

I should have written "implied hierarchy"
that of adult and infant

But in the whole situation - where is the heirarchy.

(I didn't get what you view as being the implied hierarchy of parent and child - possibly because I don't view it as an hierarchy.)

[greybeard]

I respect your point of view Dan i el.
Used to think that way too.

If you make an intention just to watch what is going on, pick something easy like ducks on a pond, you will find that mind will want to drag you into comment.
The moment you do, you are in your head you are no longer aware of what is right in font of you.
With practice you will be able to catch yourself going into comment.
A couple of weeks with just a few moments of a practice each day will see a big improvement in awareness.
The moment labeling starts you are not talking about that duck but classifying ducks.

Eventually you will be able to catch yourself about to judge a persons behavior and then you can choose to do so or not.
I suspect only a fully enlightened person would be entirely free of judgment.

Hope this is helpful.
Chris

[9eagle9]

eg. if you only observe and do not judge - then why would you "catch" the person amidst such an act and not just "find" or "see" them . The very word "catch" implies judgement already unconsciously made. shrugs. I think it is just natural tbh

You are correct but its also the difference between the first statement and the second statement.." Catching someone" as written in the first 'judgmental" statement is judgemental. The second statement contains no judgments just facts and observation:



If I were to walk into a room and catch someone smearing their own feces on the wall and I said, "You are an idiot; you are smearing your own feces on the wall" , that is a judgment. A personal one. And you become a participant in what will likely shape up to be a conflict

VERSES

If I were to walk in and state "You are smearing feces on the wall" that is not a judgment but an assessment of the situation. An observation.

[dan i el]

I should have written "implied hierarchy"
that of adult and infant

But in the whole situation - where is the heirarchy.

(I didn't get what you view as being the implied hierarchy of parent and child - possibly because I don't view it as an hierarchy.)

No neither do I, in essence, but nevertheless, it is there -- as a parent one is a guardian, hierarchy in decision making sometimes comes into play.

[Herbert]

Thanks for this thread Manny.
People who are judgemental of others do not think in terms of the higher feelings of compassion.

People who have learned discernment are wise enough not to judge when interacting with others.

In my experience, judgement discourages people from being all that they can be. Of course some may have found otherwise.

The vast majority of people are intuitive enough to recognize when they are being judged, subtly or otherwise, and something dies in that moment.

The poets say it best:

“Let us give thanks to those charming gardeners of the soul who make our spirits blossom.” paraphrasing Proust

"Every day we slaughter our finest impulses . . . stilled because we lacked the faith to believe in our own powers, our own criterion of truth and beauty. Every man, when he gets quiet, when he becomes desperately honest with himself, is capable of uttering profound truths. We all derive from the same source. There is no mystery about the origin of things. We are all part of creation, all kings, all poets, all musicians; we have only to open up, only to discover what is already there." Henry Miller

[dan i el]

eg. if you only observe and do not judge - then why would you "catch" the person amidst such an act and not just "find" or "see" them . The very word "catch" implies judgement already unconsciously made. shrugs. I think it is just natural tbh

You are correct but its also the difference between the first statement and the second statement.." Catching someone" as written in the first 'judgmental" statement is judgemental. The second statement contains no judgments just facts and observation:



If I were to walk into a room and catch someone smearing their own feces on the wall and I said, "You are an idiot; you are smearing your own feces on the wall" , that is a judgment. A personal one. And you become a participant in what will likely shape up to be a conflict

VERSES

If I were to walk in and state "You are smearing feces on the wall" that is not a judgment but an assessment of the situation. An observation.

Sure, but if you "catch" them in flagrante delicto, then the supposition is that you are judging them to be doing something "wrong". My own course would probably be to ask: "why?"



¤=[Post Update]=¤


Thanks for this thread Manny.
People who are judgemental of others do not think in terms of the higher feelings of compassion.



This is your judgement

[Anchor]

What other people think of me is none of my business.

Greybeard, i think you are a very clever, honest and wise soul.
regards, corson

That judgement is none of his business - LOL

Even though I agree :)

But...is that a judgment?
If something is, then it is. We may recognise it or not - but we can't judge it because wisdom isn't up for personal interpretation of right/wrong - good/bad.
It just is.

Of course it is, but I was making a joke.

[dan i el]

I respect your point of view Dan i el.
Used to think that way too.

If you make an intention just to watch what is going on, pick something easy like ducks on a pond, you will find that mind will want to drag you into comment.
The moment you do, you are in your head you are no longer aware of what is right in font of you.
With practice you will be able to catch yourself going into comment.
A couple of weeks with just a few moments of a practice each day will see a big improvement in awareness.
The moment labeling starts you are not talking about that duck but classifying ducks.

Eventually you will be able to catch yourself about to judge a persons behavior and then you can choose to do so or not.
I suspect only a fully enlightened person would be entirely free of judgment.

Hope this is helpful.
Chris

Believe it or not, Chris, ordinarily, I do try not to judge people! :)

"I suspect only a fully enlightened person would be entirely free of judgment." _ I agree with this statement wholeheartedly.

[Teakai]

No neither do I, in essence, but nevertheless, it is there -- as a parent one is a guardian, hierarchy in decision making sometimes comes into play.

Hierarchy implies the outranking of or superiority over another.
From a particular perspective one may see things in this role.

But, on the level of soul/spirit - there is no hierarchy. We are all souls having our particular experience. How is it possible to know this and then judge another?
To judge is to not know this.
To know this one cannot judge.

[manny]

we live by a set of rules that is right and wrong.
we are brought up in this system.
iread in the paper tonight .
a man mugged a old lady.
automatically judged.
in prison he will go through the heiarchy.
a man who robbed a post office.
will judge the man who robbed the old lady.
both are wrong.
buts thats heiarchy.
and judgement.
until we can learn tolive with our ego.
if that makes sense.

the ego is a part of us we need to find peace with.

[Teakai]

I suspect only a fully enlightened person would be entirely free of judgment.
Chris

I would disagree with this, Greybeard. I don't judge others - but I certainly don't think I'm enlightened. I only think that I recognise all of us as being soul having a human experience.
Enlightened - I don't understand what that means, but I always took it to be the complete conscious understanding of absolutely everything. Which I definitely don't have (at least not consciously).

[dan i el]

No neither do I, in essence, but nevertheless, it is there -- as a parent one is a guardian, hierarchy in decision making sometimes comes into play.

Hierarchy implies the outranking of or superiority over another.
From a particular perspective one may see things in this role.

But, on the level of soul/spirit - there is no hierarchy. We are all souls having our particular experience. How is it possible to know this and then judge another?
To judge is to not know this.
To know this one cannot judge.

We are all souls having our particular experiences wrapped up in flesh and bone, needing to maintain an internal body temperature of around 37°C or so -- so if the child wishes to run outside to make snowballs in Winter, then the parent would hopefully indeed pull rank, judge this to be an ill considered but adorable spontaneity on the part of the child and insist they wear suitable clothing.

[Anchor]

Believe it or not, Chris, ordinarily, I do try not to judge people! :)

I do it without even trying - I am that good at it :)

This is clear evidence of the operation of my ego.

I'm cool with it- I understand its operating parameters - seems like many here do, we have a good handle in what we face with within ourselves.

There is however a very clear line between making that ego/judgement and then taking action based on it. Does one follow through or does one take further steps to contemplate carefully in the light of our higher selves on what is or is not appropriate?

One day, I might be free of ego, I might be able to assess instead of make judgement (even privately to myself!)

Today I would not delude myself that I have done that.

John..

[Teakai]

This is your judgement

Judgment or opinion? Are they the same thing?

[9eagle9]

Sure, but if you "catch" them in flagrante delicto, then the supposition is that you are judging them to be doing something "wrong". My own course would probably be to ask: "why?"



The two statements were phrased in a deliberate fashion to show judgment and observation statements , and only to make a comparison. The first implicates wrongness the other doesn't implicate anything. Supposition is part and parcel of judgments.

Do you feel asking Why? is more correct?

The second statement doesn't assign values, just facts. There are no assumptions or meanings assigned just a statement of what is observed.

[modwiz]

Exercising judgement and being judgmental are qualitatively different things. If I am crossing a stream by stepping on stones that are above the water to do so, I will use judgement as to which stone is the best to get me across both dry and with the least challenge. Judgement is associated with the mental plane of being.

Being judgmental, on the other hand, is an emotional plane involvement in a mental plane issue. This is often messy but not always unwanted.

Sometimes a "gut feeling", about something or someone, is what a decision has to be made on when purely analytical data available somehow proves insufficient. Then, how one "feels", a sixth sense and maybe emotional component is a part of ones' judgment. In this case one is not "being" judgmental.

In the final inspection of this difference it seems to come down to the amount of emotional involvement and identification with a judgment one has.

It is in the "personalizing" and attachment to an idea about another or an issue/situation that problems arise.

Emotions are part of the natural "weather" that occurs within us all. It is not polite to "rain" on someones' parade.

Keeping these private movements to oneself avoids most problems. It is the "doing" judgmental not the "being" judgmental that is really the issue.

[Teakai]

We are all souls having our particular experiences wrapped up in flesh and bone, needing to maintain an internal body temperature of around 37°C or so -- so if the child wishes to run outside to make snowballs in Winter, then the parent would hopefully indeed pull rank, judge this to be an ill considered but adorable spontaneity on the part of the child and insist they wear suitable clothing.

Is there a difference between assessing situations and making appropriate positive choices and judging another person for their actions?

[dan i el]

Sure, but if you "catch" them in flagrante delicto, then the supposition is that you are judging them to be doing something "wrong". My own course would probably be to ask: "why?"



The two statements were phrased in a deliberate fashion to show judgment and observation statements , and only to make a comparison. The first implicates wrongness the other doesn't implicate anything. Supposition is part and parcel of judgments.

Do you feel asking Why? is more correct?

The second statement doesn't assign values, just facts. There are no assumptions or meanings assigned just a statement of what is observed.

My apologies then, I did not realise you had consciously ascribed import to the use of the word "catch" in the first example and thought you were just writing freely. In terms of fecal decorating - no, asking why is not necessarily better and I did not mean to suggest such, I was just imagining what I would probably say..

[Teakai]

Of course it is, but I was making a joke.

I figured you were, but it made a good point.
:)

¤=[Post Update]=¤


I was just imagining what I would probably say..

I'd say "SH*T!!!!" then I'd turn around and leave.

[dan i el]

We are all souls having our particular experiences wrapped up in flesh and bone, needing to maintain an internal body temperature of around 37°C or so -- so if the child wishes to run outside to make snowballs in Winter, then the parent would hopefully indeed pull rank, judge this to be an ill considered but adorable spontaneity on the part of the child and insist they wear suitable clothing.



Is there a difference between assessing situations and making appropriate positive choices and judging another person for their actions?

Well, yes, apparently so - because I see them in this instance as the same but you say you never judge..I judge that the child doesn't yet have the prescience nor presence of mind to look out for themself.

One can take this motif right to the top strata of our societies and their managers, where it is malign and completely corrupted obviously

¤=[Post Update]=¤




Of course it is, but I was making a joke.

I figured you were, but it made a good point.
:)

¤=[Post Update]=¤


I was just imagining what I would probably say..

I'd say "SH*T!!!!" then I'd turn around and leave.

I wouldn't want to turn tail and leave, repulsive as it would be standing in the room as perhaps it would be indicative of them having a psychotic episode - and if I judged so, I would probably try and get them to clean up and calm down before deciding on the next course of action.

¤=[Post Update]=¤


Exercising judgement and being judgmental are qualitatively different things. If I am crossing a stream by stepping on stones that are above the water to do so, I will use judgement as to which stone is the best to get me across both dry and with the least challenge. Judgement is associated with the mental plane of being.

Being judgmental, on the other hand, is an emotional plane involvement in a mental plane issue. This is often messy but not always unwanted.

Sometimes a "gut feeling", about something or someone, is what a decision has to be made on when purely analytical data available somehow proves insufficient. Then, how one "feels", a sixth sense and maybe emotional component is a part of ones' judgment. In this case one is not "being" judgmental.

In the final inspection of this difference it seems to come down to the amount of emotional involvement and identification with a judgment one has.

It is in the "personalizing" and attachment to an idea about another, or an issue/situation that problems arise.

Emotions are part of the natural "weather" that occurs within us all. It is not polite to "rain" on someones' parade.

Keeping these private movements to oneself avoids most problems. It is the "doing" judgmental not the "being" judgmental that is really the issue.

I agree with you Modwiz. I phrased it as the dangers of being overly judgemental but I think your illustration of "being" and "doing" is more eloquent.

[9eagle9]

And I would begin judging myself: "How do you inevitably always manage to walk in on situations like this? "







Of course it is, but I was making a joke.

I figured you were, but it made a good point.
:)

¤=[Post Update]=¤


I was just imagining what I would probably say..

I'd say "SH*T!!!!" then I'd turn around and leave.

[Teakai]

Well, yes, apparently so - because I see them in this instance as the same but you say you never judge..I judge that the child doesn't yet have the prescience nor presence of mind to look out for themself.

One can take this motif right to the top strata of our societies and their managers, where it is malign and completely corrupted obviously[COLOR="red"]

I'm talking about judging people as being either good/bad - right/wrong. I had mentioned that was my meaning earlier and that is what I mean when I say I don't judge people.

If we use judgment with as broad a definiton as you're giving it - then everything is judged.

[manny]

And I would begin judging myself..(9eagel9)
perfect.
before i judge others.
and the judging would only be in empathy as that person has not reached their potentiol.
so their would be no judgement.
just empathy.
if that makes sense.

[manny]

but try and put it into practice everyday.
its very difficult.
as other peoples opinions affects your own..

[Darla Ken Pearce]

Well, the judgment thread seems to have run out of steam. Could we take a break now and regroup later? Oh, nobody asked but when I go off to take naps, these are my beautiful napping partners:

Snowflake, Adam, Noah, and Ember de Mama.

6407

When one set of kids grows up and leaves home, another arrives to take their place. Ah, this must be heaven ~ luckily our heaven can be anything we wish. Mine doesn't have to be yours but I do always love to share. BTW, judgments are to be no more and we must move on and into the 5th where all is love and light and if you ask me ~ it's about time. Surely this is what bliss looks like up close and personal but that could just be me ; ) xoxoxo

6408

[manny]

Well, the judgment thread seems to have gone downhill or run out of steam. Could we take a break now and regroup later? Oh, nobody asked but when I go off to take naps, these are my beautiful napping partners:

Snowflake, Adam, Noah, and Ember de Mama. 6407 When one set of kids grows up and leaves home, another arrives to take their place. Ah, this must be heaven ~ luckily our heaven can be anything we wish. Mine doesn't have to be yours but I do always love to share. BTW, judgments are to be no more and we must move on and into the 5th where all is love and light and if you ask me ~ it's about time. Surely this is what bliss looks like up close and personal ; ) xoxoxo
invalid attachment

[dan i el]

Well, yes, apparently so - because I see them in this instance as the same but you say you never judge..I judge that the child doesn't yet have the prescience nor presence of mind to look out for themself.

One can take this motif right to the top strata of our societies and their managers, where it is malign and completely corrupted obviously[COLOR="red"]

I'm talking about judging people as being either good/bad - right/wrong. I had mentioned that was my meaning earlier and that is what I mean when I say I don't judge people.

If we use judgment with as broad a definiton as you're giving it - then everything is judged.

okay, no probs..



Philosophical poverty
Critics propose that moral relativism fails because it rejects basic premises of discussions on morality, or because it cannot arbitrate disagreement

Many critics, including Ibn Warraq and Eddie Tabash, have suggested that meta-ethical relativists essentially take themselves out of any discussion of normative morality, since they seem to be rejecting an assumption of such discussions: the premise that there are right and wrong answers that can be discovered through reason. Practically, some forms of meta-ethical relativism may amount to Moral nihilism.

These critics argue specifically that the moral relativists reduce the extent of their input in normative moral discussions to either rejecting the very having of the discussion, or else deeming both disagreeing parties to be correct. For instance, the moral relativist can only appeal to personal preference to object to the practice of murder or torture by individuals for hedonistic pleasure.[15] This accusation that relativists reject widely held terms of discourse is similar to arguments used against other "discussion-stoppers" like some forms of solipsism or the rejection of induction.

Philosopher Simon Blackburn made a similar criticism[16], and explains that moral relativism fails as a moral system simply because it cannot arbitrate disagreements.

The moral relativist might respond that their conception of morality (as being capable only of describing preferences) is more accurate, regardless of the practical use of this conception. The critics, however, maintain that their conception of morality is, for that exact reason, inadequate. Ultimately critics can do little more than to invite moral-relativists to re-define "morality" in practical or morally realistic terms.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moral_relativity#Philosophical_poverty

[manny]

darla
you said
Well, the judgment thread seems to have gone downhill or run out of steam.
my believe system is if this thred goes on for a thousand years.
and 1 person takes something from it.
then is it not worthwhile.

yes i,many people would love to move on to the 5th dimesion.
but as yet its all hearsay.
we are living in the now.

[giovonni]

Nugget ~:luv: Thats the first time i've ever heard the term used in that way....i'm a bit slow at times :o

Judging~ by this collection ~ this prospector ~ knows his ~ NUGGETS ~ :wof:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uwdfsWW8KCs

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uwdfsWW8KCs

[Teakai]

we live by a set of rules that is right and wrong.
we are brought up in this system.
iread in the paper tonight .
a man mugged a old lady.
automatically judged.
in prison he will go through the heiarchy.
a man who robbed a post office.
will judge the man who robbed the old lady.
both are wrong.
buts thats heiarchy.
and judgement.
until we can learn tolive with our ego.
if that makes sense.

the ego is a part of us we need to find peace with.

The ego identity is the part we have to get rid of/step out of/drop/recognise for what it is.

It is at this level that all the muggings and robbings takes place. All 'evils' only happen in a state of ego. Even love in an ego state can be damaging.

[Darla Ken Pearce]

This is a very valid point, Manny. It's just that so much is darkness right now and people keep making judgments right and left and they don't seem to get that each judgment we make is a bomerang that comes right back at us. We love to debate stuff endlessly and this is mainly why it is two steps forward, one step back. Once we can realize that judgments are working against us, and stop making them, we can skip right on into a much happier world. If you are uneasy or unsure ~ this prolongs the agony and keeps hitting you upside the head.

Judgments go with duality and 3D ~ Let's vamoose, let's move it on out and upward into the 5th ~ it's so close if we can stop all the noise and interdialog which is part of the endless cycles of suffering anyway ~ if it had value at one time, it sure doesn't anymore. Send all our preconceived patterning and boxes and prisons of the mind ~ up and let it fly like a dove out of your vista. Just saying.... xoxox

[Teakai]

but try and put it into practice everyday.
its very difficult.
as other peoples opinions affects your own..

How or why? I'm not being picky, Manny. I'm just wanting your take on it, because I'm wondering why you see see this as being true.

[manny]

Nugget ~:luv: Thats the first time i've ever heard the term used in that way....i'm a bit slow at times :o

Judging~ by this collection ~ this prospector ~ knows his ~ NUGGETS ~ :wof:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uwdfsWW8KCs

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uwdfsWW8KCs
hmm don,t know what you are trying to say.
but i sent lord sidious a pm.
all is good i think.
just a misunderstanding.
wow.what a collection of gold.
gold equals money equals wealth equals heirchy.

[manny]

but try and put it into practice everyday.
its very difficult.
as other peoples opinions affects your own..

How or why? I'm not being picky, Manny. I'm just wanting your take on it, because I'm wondering why you see see this as being true.
we are influenced by the people around us.every day.
and making that seperation from the negative thoughts or iinfluence is very difficult.
now if you can seperate yourself from that influence.
then all is good.
but their is always judgement in the workplace.
thats my opinion.

[Teakai]

Philosophical poverty
Critics propose that moral relativism fails because it rejects basic premises of discussions on morality, or because it cannot arbitrate disagreement

Many critics, including Ibn Warraq and Eddie Tabash, have suggested that meta-ethical relativists essentially take themselves out of any discussion of normative morality, since they seem to be rejecting an assumption of such discussions: the premise that there are right and wrong answers that can be discovered through reason. Practically, some forms of meta-ethical relativism may amount to Moral nihilism.

These critics argue specifically that the moral relativists reduce the extent of their input in normative moral discussions to either rejecting the very having of the discussion, or else deeming both disagreeing parties to be correct. For instance, the moral relativist can only appeal to personal preference to object to the practice of murder or torture by individuals for hedonistic pleasure.[15] This accusation that relativists reject widely held terms of discourse is similar to arguments used against other "discussion-stoppers" like some forms of solipsism or the rejection of induction.

Philosopher Simon Blackburn made a similar criticism[16], and explains that moral relativism fails as a moral system simply because it cannot arbitrate disagreements.

The moral relativist might respond that their conception of morality (as being capable only of describing preferences) is more accurate, regardless of the practical use of this conception. The critics, however, maintain that their conception of morality is, for that exact reason, inadequate. Ultimately critics can do little more than to invite moral-relativists to re-define "morality" in practical or morally realistic terms.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moral_relativity#Philosophical_poverty

Hi Dan i el - did you put this up because it had something to do with what I said - because I'm totally missing the point if you did.

¤=[Post Update]=¤


we are influenced by the people around us.every day.
and making that seperation from the negative thoughts or iinfluence is very difficult.
now if you can seperate yourself from that influence.
then all is good.
but their is always judgement in the workplace.
thats my opinion.

There may well be - but why does it then follow that that automatically affects our own opinion?

[9eagle9]

I judge that the child doesn't yet have the prescience nor presence of mind to look out for themself.

A child lacks the experience. Where are their minds at if not present? When does the mind become present?

Also.... That would be based on what you judge to be an adequate form of looking out for themselves. How I look after my child may be seemed inadequate compared to how you look after yours.

Looking out for themselves has a physical, emotional and mental value. And its dependant on age. An infant may not bond with its mother because the mother feels unsafe. That is the infant in some fashion looking out for itself. More often we will tend to see something dysfunctional about the infant and not the parent.

A lot of parenting goes on beneath the surface. Parenting is mostly based on judgements that were imposed on the parent. Until the parent makes the decision not to operate from that place of judgement.

My daughter is wanting to ride in cars with her peers. My kneejerk reaction is tell her she's not old enough. Obviously she's old enough to ride in a car-- she rides in a car with me after all. This is less about presence of mind or age but experience. Her experience and her peers experience.

What I have to really express is I don't want you riding in a car until you are experienced enough to assume control of the situation if something were to go wrong that would not keep you safe. Meaning I want her to know how to drive before she starts riding in cars with her peers because I trust her discernment abilities but I know she lacks experience.

A four year old is capable of feeding and clothing themselves.

A parent may provide physical safety but not provide emotional safety and children will assume defensive postures to protect themselves from that. Those postures may not prove to be healthy later in life but they serve a purpose at the time. That's based on a child's environment and observation of the primary care givers from whom we take our first roles from. My parents instilled in me some unsafe values from early on that I would be much better off without in my adult life all in the name of looking out for me.

[giovonni]

"gold equals money equals wealth equals heirchy."

hmmmm...i have none of those things...and i am still happy...
but i still like nuggets...especially those chocolate ones :hungry:

[manny]

Philosophical poverty
Critics propose that moral relativism fails because it rejects basic premises of discussions on morality, or because it cannot arbitrate disagreement

Many critics, including Ibn Warraq and Eddie Tabash, have suggested that meta-ethical relativists essentially take themselves out of any discussion of normative morality, since they seem to be rejecting an assumption of such discussions: the premise that there are right and wrong answers that can be discovered through reason. Practically, some forms of meta-ethical relativism may amount to Moral nihilism.

These critics argue specifically that the moral relativists reduce the extent of their input in normative moral discussions to either rejecting the very having of the discussion, or else deeming both disagreeing parties to be correct. For instance, the moral relativist can only appeal to personal preference to object to the practice of murder or torture by individuals for hedonistic pleasure.[15] This accusation that relativists reject widely held terms of discourse is similar to arguments used against other "discussion-stoppers" like some forms of solipsism or the rejection of induction.

Philosopher Simon Blackburn made a similar criticism[16], and explains that moral relativism fails as a moral system simply because it cannot arbitrate disagreements.

The moral relativist might respond that their conception of morality (as being capable only of describing preferences) is more accurate, regardless of the practical use of this conception. The critics, however, maintain that their conception of morality is, for that exact reason, inadequate. Ultimately critics can do little more than to invite moral-relativists to re-define "morality" in practical or morally realistic terms.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moral_relativity#Philosophical_poverty

Hi Dan i el - did you put this up because it had something to do with what I said - because I'm totally missing the point if you did.

¤=[Post Update]=¤


we are influenced by the people around us.every day.
and making that seperation from the negative thoughts or iinfluence is very difficult.
now if you can seperate yourself from that influence.
then all is good.
but their is always judgement in the workplace.
thats my opinion.

There may well be - but why does it then follow that that automatically affects our own opinion?
and thats what i,m trying to say,i am breaking away from other peoples opinions.
their lack of understanding will not effect me.
when a group of people bitch against one person ,it is easy to get involved.
if you do not get involved then you can become the victim.
but its about personal growth and understanding.
and to try and seperate is difficult because it can become the norm so easily.

[arctourist]

who are we to judge.

my first person i argued with was on chat.
this person called the people that are not awake idiots.


i laid into him,and said there are no idiots.
just undereducated people.

i came to this forum to find like minded people.
what i found was people who are much higher educated and evolved than myself.


will there always be a hierarchy.
or will people just excpect what a person is.

Don't worry nugget, you aren't one of the posters that causes issues on the forum, so I doubt anyone feels a need to censure or censor you.

now i don,t feel the need for this comment.
what is a nugget?
a idiot?
what is a idiot?
someone who is under educated?

imo.if you know more than another person,and they make mistakes,and they don,t quite get to the piont.as quickly as you expect.

then educate that person.
does that person not have a right to be informed.
take your time.

is it easier to disregard that person.
but hey if that person takes on a little of what you say and learns by it.

does that not make you feel that you have achieved something.

there are no nuggets and their are no idiots.

one path one goal
let go of the ego.

Manny - your post is judgmental.

You're judging judgmental people and finding their behaviour unsatisfactory.

I'm just sayin', because if, as you say 'let go of the ego' then you gotta recognise the ego and how it works.

If you had let go of ego - then judgmental people wouldn't affect you. Their judgments would be their problem, not yours.

:)
¤=[Post Update]=¤


I think there is no need to be judgemental, just shoot em all and let god sort em out.
Hang on, is that right?
Seem to have a short circuit somewhere here, back in a bit.

So...you going for a sainthood as well as a lordship, M'lord?

;)

hahaha! judge the judges!
how's everyone then eh? has charles been here lately? i'm afraid i've a little catching-up to do and will there ever be time for that,haha-i just dropped in to see what condition our condition is in!

[Teakai]

Surely this is what bliss looks like up close and personal but that could just be me ; ) xoxoxo


To birds and mice - that is the scariest picture ever.
:)

Definitely a case of beauty being in the eye of the beholder, Darla.

(I think they're gorgeous - puss is sleeping on the bed right now - it's getting colder out - he normally prefers to sleep in the garden.)

6409
Cool for cats.

[manny]

"gold equals money equals wealth equals heirchy."

hmmmm...i have none of those things...and i am still happy...
but i still like nuggets...especially those chocolate ones :hungry:
i can,t say i understand where you are coming from.
why the video of the gold.
nugget

[manny]

who are we to judge.

my first person i argued with was on chat.
this person called the people that are not awake idiots.


i laid into him,and said there are no idiots.
just undereducated people.

i came to this forum to find like minded people.
what i found was people who are much higher educated and evolved than myself.


will there always be a hierarchy.
or will people just excpect what a person is.

Don't worry nugget, you aren't one of the posters that causes issues on the forum, so I doubt anyone feels a need to censure or censor you.

now i don,t feel the need for this comment.
what is a nugget?
a idiot?
what is a idiot?
someone who is under educated?

imo.if you know more than another person,and they make mistakes,and they don,t quite get to the piont.as quickly as you expect.

then educate that person.
does that person not have a right to be informed.
take your time.

is it easier to disregard that person.
but hey if that person takes on a little of what you say and learns by it.

does that not make you feel that you have achieved something.

there are no nuggets and their are no idiots.

one path one goal
let go of the ego.

Manny - your post is judgmental.

You're judging judgmental people and finding their behaviour unsatisfactory.

I'm just sayin', because if, as you say 'let go of the ego' then you gotta recognise the ego and how it works.

If you had let go of ego - then judgmental people wouldn't affect you. Their judgments would be their problem, not yours.

:)
¤=[Post Update]=¤


I think there is no need to be judgemental, just shoot em all and let god sort em out.
Hang on, is that right?
Seem to have a short circuit somewhere here, back in a bit.

So...you going for a sainthood as well as a lordship, M'lord?

;)

hahaha! judge the judges!
how's everyone then eh? has charles been here lately? i'm afraid i've a little catching-up to do and will there ever be time for that,haha-i just dropped in to see what condition our condition is in!
let charles post his own thread ;)

[dan i el]

@Teakai - yes, you said you don't judge good or bad, right or wrong -- this extracted text considers the inherent problems arising from Normative relativism.

@9eagle9 - I am not belittling little ones and tbh think that all is thus far well with my own youngling. They are bright and happy and I am careful not to load them up with any of my own baggage.

"Where are their minds at if not present? When does the mind become present? "
I wasn't implying it as a literalism.. "Having the Presence of mind to.." being a phrase indicating that one can prioritise and make due considerations relevant to a particular situation - ie. the young child wishing to immediately run out into the snow to make snowballs or w/e doesn't yet have the presence of mind yet to grab a warm coat and gloves first...it doesn't suggest they have no mind! That was my understanding of it anyhow, I could be wrong of course!

[giovonni]

"gold equals money equals wealth equals heirchy."

hmmmm...i have none of those things...and i am still happy...
but i still like nuggets...especially those chocolate ones :hungry:
i can,t say i understand where you are coming from.
why the video of the gold.
nugget

i'm coming from Love manny Love ...sorry, just thought i would eject a brief interlude into this discussion.

in regards to the video ~ apparently this man loves his gold ~ What do you love manny?

[manny]

is charles judgemental.hmm.

[Teakai]

@Teakai - yes, you said you don't judge good or bad, right or wrong -- this extracted text considers the inherent problems arising from Normative relativism.

But - I explained why I don't judge people as good or bad - right or wrong, and I don't see the excerpt you posted as being relevant to what I'm saying.

I've not heard of normative relativism before. Does normative relativism take into account spirituality - or is it based on a Darwinian outlook?

[manny]

"gold equals money equals wealth equals heirchy."

hmmmm...i have none of those things...and i am still happy...
but i still like nuggets...especially those chocolate ones :hungry:
i can,t say i understand where you are coming from.
why the video of the gold.
nugget

i'm coming from Love manny Love ...sorry, just thought i would eject a brief interlude into this discussion.

in regards to the video ~ apparently this man loves his gold ~ What do you love manny?
i love my family.
i do not love myself.
i love the earth.
i do not fit in.
i love the species on this planet.
and all i will learn.
i love the love that others give .
i cannot accept it.
i understand the concept of love thy self before you can love others.
for me it has never worked that way.
and if the day comes .
then i will be truely be free.
i love all.
but find it difficult to receive.

[9eagle9]

Of course I take what you say literally because otherwise I'm making assumptions and presuming that you meant something that perhaps you didn't as presence of mind could have a lot of meanings-- possibly 7.2 billion meanings :p if you get what I'm saying ...lol.

[ThePythonicCow]

invalid attachmentWe (the site admins) are beginning to suspect that users who have selected the "Enhanced (WYSIWYG) Editor" for entering replies sometimes end up, unbeknownst to them, having their attempts to include attachments rendered invalid (due to what is likely a bug in the vBulletin forum software.)

This is still an open issue.

[dan i el]

@Teakai - yes, you said you don't judge good or bad, right or wrong -- this extracted text considers the inherent problems arising from Normative relativism.

But - I explained why I don't judge people as good or bad - right or wrong, and I don't see the excerpt you posted as being relevant to what I'm saying.

I've not heard of normative relativism before. Does normative relativism take into account spirituality - or is it based on a Darwinian outlook?

It's a philosophical concept/debate, so I imagine there are people of both outlooks participating..is it a loaded question?

"Moral nihilism (also known as ethical nihilism or amoralism), is the meta-ethical view that nothing is moral or immoral. For example, a moral nihilist would say that killing someone, for whatever reason, is neither inherently right nor inherently wrong. Morality may simply be a kind of make-believe, a complex set of rules and recommendations that represents nothing real and is seen as a human creation.
Error theory

Error theory is built by three principles:

1. There are no moral features in this world, nothing is right or wrong.
2. No moral judgments are true. (This is believed because of the first rule; since nothing is moral then there is no way to judge things as it being right or wrong).
3. Our sincere moral judgments try, and always fail, to describe the moral features of things.

Thus we always lapse into error when thinking in moral terms. We are trying to state the truth when we make moral judgments. But since there is no moral truth, all of our moral claims are mistaken. Hence the error. These three principles lead to the conclusion:

4. There is no moral knowledge. Knowledge requires truth. If there is no moral truth, there can be no moral knowledge. Thus moral values are make-believe. p.293.
Landau, Russ Shafer (2010). The Fundamentals of ethics. Oxford University Press.

I thought there was relevance.. but if you judge otherwise, that's okay!

[Teakai]

i love my family.
i do not love myself.
i love the earth.
i do not fit in.
i love the species on this planet.
and all i will learn.
i love the love that others give .
i cannot accept it.
i understand the concept of love thy self before you can love others.
for me it has never worked that way.
and if the day comes .
then i will be truely be free.
i love all.
but find it difficult to receive.

The only reason you don't love yourself, Manny - is because you think you are what you are not. You are buying the illusion of who you think you are.

I would recommend these books - which I consider to be life/perspective altering.
1) journey of souls - Michael Newton
2) destiny of souls - Michael Newton
3) a new earth - Eckhardt Tolle

It could just be my own experience. I've heard people say 'a new earth' was long, boring and incomprehensible and some even gave up on it - but I'm sharing in case you find something worth while in them.

[dan i el]

Of course I take what you say literally because otherwise I'm making assumptions and presuming that you meant something that perhaps you didn't as presence of mind could have a lot of meanings-- possibly 7.2 billion meanings :p if you get what I'm saying ...lol.

Sorry!! it is a common phrase where I come from and naively thought it could be internationally transcribed amongst English speakers! sincerely..

[giovonni]

i love my family.
i do not love myself.
i love the earth.
i do not fit in.
i love the species on this planet.
and all i will learn.
i love the love that others give .
i cannot accept it.
i understand the concept of love thy self before you can love others.
for me it has never worked that way.
and if the day comes .
then i will be truely be free.
i love all.
but find it difficult to receive.

And note your not alone in feeling this way ~ thanks for that manny ~ now you've found your nugget :love: yourself first !

Blessings ~ Gio

i will skedaddle now from this discussion :bolt:

[Teakai]

It's a philosophical concept/debate, so I imagine there are people of both outlooks participating..is it a loaded question?

"Moral nihilism (also known as ethical nihilism or amoralism), is the meta-ethical view that nothing is moral or immoral. For example, a moral nihilist would say that killing someone, for whatever reason, is neither inherently right nor inherently wrong. Morality may simply be a kind of make-believe, a complex set of rules and recommendations that represents nothing real and is seen as a human creation.
Error theory

Error theory is built by three principles:

1. There are no moral features in this world, nothing is right or wrong.
2. No moral judgments are true. (This is believed because of the first rule; since nothing is moral then there is no way to judge things as it being right or wrong).
3. Our sincere moral judgments try, and always fail, to describe the moral features of things.

Thus we always lapse into error when thinking in moral terms. We are trying to state the truth when we make moral judgments. But since there is no moral truth, all of our moral claims are mistaken. Hence the error. These three principles lead to the conclusion:

4. There is no moral knowledge. Knowledge requires truth. If there is no moral truth, there can be no moral knowledge. Thus moral values are make-believe. p.293.
Landau, Russ Shafer (2010). The Fundamentals of ethics. Oxford University Press.

I thought there was relevance.. but if you judge otherwise, that's okay!

Well, I don't think this theory applies to my take on judging people (or not judging people) I am of the opinion that if people do murder, or hurt another or do any action that is not in keeping with truth - it is only through their ignorance of their true self. I have said this earlier.

Can you show me specifically where you feel the relevance is?

[dan i el]

The relevance, I think, is found in the given premise of never "judging", never finding someone to be "right or wrong", "good or bad" -- This could be considered a dilution of the increasingly prevalent meme that is error theory.

When looking around at the sad state of the present world, I cannot help but have misgivings about all forms of moral relativism that are sugar coated and pumped into our psyches under the guise of spirituality. JMHO

edit) A precursor to it being John Nash's "Game Theory" which was internationalised and promoted in various guises by RAND corp. Basically, a validation of sociopathic behaviours in essence.
Nash, himself, later vehemently repudiating any merit whatsoever to his theory. The film " A Beautiful Mind" is about his early years but it is a digression..

[Teakai]

The relevance, I think, is found in the given premise of never "judging", never finding someone to be "right or wrong", "good or bad" -- This could be considered a dilution of the increasingly prevalent meme that is error theory.

When looking around at the sad state of the present world, I cannot help but have misgivings about all forms of moral relativism that are sugar coated and pumped into our psyches under the guise of spirituality. JMHO

edit) A precursor to it being John Nash's "Game Theory" which was internationalised and promoted in various guises by RAND corp. Basically, a validation of sociopathic behaviours in essence.

OK - so just give me which of the four principals you listed above that you think applies to my take on non judgment.

[dan i el]

The relevance, I think, is found in the given premise of never "judging", never finding someone to be "right or wrong", "good or bad" -- This could be considered a dilution of the increasingly prevalent meme that is error theory.

When looking around at the sad state of the present world, I cannot help but have misgivings about all forms of moral relativism that are sugar coated and pumped into our psyches under the guise of spirituality. JMHO

edit) A precursor to it being John Nash's "Game Theory" which was internationalised and promoted in various guises by RAND corp. Basically, a validation of sociopathic behaviours in essence.

OK - so just give me which of the three principals you listed above that you think applies to my take on non judgment.

No, you say there is no relevance, so afaics it is moot. Let me ask you a question this time, instead?

Is Dick Cheney a bad man?

edit) A thought to entertain -- we have an astonishing genetic similarity to chimpanzees, give or take a fused chromosome or so...do you know the story of Frodo?


Frodo

Frodo (born 1976) is Fifi's second oldest son.[26] Even from a young age, Frodo was large and aggressive. He learned to throw rocks as a juvenile, sometimes throwing them at and hitting and bruising his human observers.[27] As an adult, he was one of the largest chimpanzees ever observed in the community, at about 113 pounds (51 kg) and remained aggressive.[25][26] He also became an excellent hunter of red colobus monkeys, and was also able to intimidate other chimpanzees into sharing their kills with him if he was unsuccessful.[28] His large size and aggressive nature allowed him to attain high status while his brother Freud was alpha, and on October 2, 1997, while Freud and other community members were suffering from sarcoptic mange, Frodo defeated Freud and attained the alpha male position.[26][28]

As alpha male, Frodo maintained his position largely through intimidation.[25][28] He rarely groomed other males, and often demanded that other males groom him.[25][28] Frodo maintained his alpha position until becoming ill himself in 2002.[24][28][29] He was then defeated by a coalition of several males and spent most of the next two years on his own recovering from his wounds and illness.[24][28][29] He received antibiotics from the researchers, which may have helped his recovery.[30] In 2004, he once again began traveling with the rest of the community, but was unable to reestablish his alpha status.[24][28]

Frodo's aggression has not been limited to colobus monkeys and other chimpanzees. In May 2002, he killed a 14 month old human baby that the niece of a member of the research team had carried into his territory.[30] As a result, the Tanzanian National Parks Department considered euthanizing Frodo.[30] In 1988, he attacked cartoonist Gary Larson, leaving him bruised and scratched.[30] In 1989, he attacked Dr. Goodall, beating her head to the point of nearly breaking her neck.[30]

Frodo has been successful at fathering infants, and has fathered at least eight infants, more than any other group male.[31][32] Infants he has fathered have included:

* Fred (1996–1997), by his own mother Fifi[17]
* Titan (1994–), a large, aggressive adolescent male by Patti[33][34]
* Golden and Glitter (1998–), female twins and the oldest chimpanzee twins known to have survived in the wild, by Gremlin[17][24][29]


Frodo was bad to the bone..the universe built him like that maybe..
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frodo_%28chimpanzee%29#Frodo

[Teakai]

No, you say there is no relevance, so afaics it is moot. Let me ask you a question this time, instead?


No, I said I didn't 'think' it applied. That I couldn't see the relevance. I asked you to point out how you thought it did from the four principles upon which the theory is built.

You either can - or can't.

If you can't it would seem that I am correct in my assesment of the matter :)




Is Dick Cheney a bad man?


Dick Cheney is a misguided man.
Anyone being led from the perspective of ego identity thinking is misguided.
They think they are doing good, others think they are doing bad.
The judgment rests on which side of the line one happens to be standing.

(I hadn't heard the story of Frodo. If you're making a particular point using the Frodo story could you please be specific. Guessing is just so long and messy.)

[dan i el]

No, you say there is no relevance, so afaics it is moot. Let me ask you a question this time, instead?


No, I said I didn't 'think' it applied. That I couldn't see the relevance. I asked you to point out how you thought it did from the four principles upon which the theory is built.

You either can - or can't.

If you can't it would seem that I am correct in my assesment of the matter :)




Is Dick Cheney a bad man?


Dick Cheney is a misguided man.
Anyone being led from the perspective of ego identity thinking is misguided.
They think they are doing good, others think they are doing bad.
The judgment rests on which side of the line one happens to be standing.

(I hadn't heard the story of Frodo. If you're making a particular point using the Frodo story could you please be specific. Guessing is just so long and messy.)

Dick Cheney is a sociopath. I don't know if that qualifies as "misguided" but there are a number of interesting forums on the internet where sociopaths and people with BPD can commune, where those that have "inbuilt" empathy can gain an insight to the realities of what such a condition presents.

"If you can't it would seem that I am correct in my assesment of the matter :)"

As you like, but your assessment may be clouded by pride. I think I have given more than a few breadcrumbs to digest on that particular trail, all depends on whether you are with appetite or not. If you cannot see the correlations thus far between the cited philosophical concepts and the spiritual tenets you align with that, that's okay too.

My own personal assessment is that Cheney is a sang froid out and out murderer. I assess him as consciously making and with full knowledge, wrong action, "evil" if you will ... 'misguided', for me, just doesn't convey the severity of effect people like him are having on the world. It is wholly inadequate and furthermore, symptomatic of the general spiritual malaise that moral relativism poisons the well with. It is a holding pattern to the holding pen possibly JMHO

[Anchor]

Is Dick Cheney a bad man?

If you were asking me, then I would consider that you are asking two things: (1) do I have an opinion of Dick Cheney (2) is that opinion one that matches what I may understand about your particular standards of bad.

It has to be that way because of the subjective nature of "bad".

The first part is easy - yes I have an opinion (as it turns out quite a heavily judgemental one LOL)

The second part is less easy, and this is where you get the "What do YOU mean by bad" answers to this kind of question.

John..

[Teakai]

As you like, but your assessment may be clouded by pride. I think I have given more than a few breadcrumbs to digest on that particular trail, all depends on whether you are with appetite or not. If you cannot see the correlations thus far between the cited philosophical concepts and the spiritual tenets you align with that, that's okay too.

Well - that can easily be sorted. Show me which principle makes the theory you proposed relevant to my take on non judgment?
I can't see a match with any of them - thus it seems to me that the theory does not apply.

You must be seeing a connection with one of the principles that makes it relevant in your thinking.

No amount of pride will make me correct if I'm incorrect.



My own personal assessment is that Cheney is a sang froid out and out murderer. I assess him as consciously making and with full knowledge, wrong action, "evil" if you will ... 'misguided', for me, just doesn't convey the severity of effect people like him are having on the world. It is wholly inadequate and furthermore, symptomatic of the general spiritual malaise that moral relativism poisons the well with. It is a holding pattern to the holding pen possibly JMHO

Dick Cheney may well be a sociopath. But we would have to establish what exactly defines one being a sociopath before we conclude that he is.
Maybe he is just full up with his own self importance and feels perfectly justified in his actions.

[dan i el]

Is Dick Cheney a bad man?

If you were asking me, then I would consider that you are asking two things: (1) do I have an opinion of Dick Cheney (2) is that opinion one that matches what I may understand about your particular standards of bad.

It has to be that way because of the subjective nature of "bad".

The first part is easy - yes I have an opinion (as it turns out quite a heavily judgemental one LOL)

The second part is less easy, and this is where you get the "What do YOU mean by bad" answers to this kind of question.

John..

Unless, you are a moral relativist, John, in this instance, qualification of what exactly constitutes "bad" is largely redundant as the example is rather a stark one, maybe? I was trying to keep it within the parameters of "good or bad", "right or wrong"...I agree it would have given less leeway for misinterpretation, to pose the question thus: "Is Dick Cheney a greed obsessed murderer"...I think I know what you mean, though.

[dan i el]

Understanding that there may be extenuating circumstance to the vast majority of situations is indeed a thoughtful perspective, I would agree..

for instance, the amusingly startling and rather unseemly analogy of chancing upon someone smearing their poop on the walls of a room -- if it was "my" room-- my immediate judgement of that person was that they were doing something "wrong" and that it was very "bad" -- there may well have been an extenuating circumstance, such as them being in the midst of a psychological crisis etc,but, nevertheless, I am still going to judge them in that moment as being a sh*t for doing that to "my" walls. You say you don't judge people, I can't believe it. Again, it is a judgement I am making.

error theory and dick cheney:

"Error theory is built by three principles:

1. There are no moral features in this world, nothing is right or wrong.
2. No moral judgments are true. (This is believed because of the first rule; since nothing is moral then there is no way to judge things as it being right or wrong).
3. Our sincere moral judgments try, and always fail, to describe the moral features of things."


Sorry, it is late here, so I hope you will allow me the grace of paraphrasing you; you said something to the effect:

"I never judge someone as being right or wrong"

please look again at the 1st condition of error theory:

There are no moral features in this world, nothing is right or wrong

To me, this sounds remarkably similar to your proposition.

It denies completely that there is any hope of a "universal morality" pervasive to our species.

You think Cheney is "misguided" but not "bad/wrong" -- I believe this is the meme of moral relativism which has been with great effort seeded into mass consciousness by societies' managers over the last century or so.
I believe this in itself is misguided, the inability to call out someone's actions as being patently Wrong. Moral relativism is pernicious.

2. No moral judgments are true.

Take it one step further and ironically it becomes "wrong" to "judge". By such "lines" of thought..We are being made morally impotent in the guise of becoming spiritually elevated is my contention.

3. Our sincere moral judgments try, and always fail, to describe the moral features of things."

philosophical sorcery

edit)
"Maybe he is just full up with his own self importance and feels perfectly justified in his actions. "

These could also be traits indicative of a sociopath but..I got off the fence already because it began to chafe. With over a million dead in Iraq, soaring cancer rates and generations to come with horrendous birth defects..allied to helliburton's projection of further reconstruction projects in the M.E. I would say it is SAFE TO SAY he is a sociopath. jmo

[Lord Sidious]

"gold equals money equals wealth equals heirchy."

hmmmm...i have none of those things...and i am still happy...
but i still like nuggets...especially those chocolate ones :hungry:
i can,t say i understand where you are coming from.
why the video of the gold.
nugget

i'm coming from Love manny Love ...sorry, just thought i would eject a brief interlude into this discussion.

in regards to the video ~ apparently this man loves his gold ~ What do you love manny?
i love my family.
i do not love myself.
i love the earth.
i do not fit in.
i love the species on this planet.
and all i will learn.
i love the love that others give .
i cannot accept it.
i understand the concept of love thy self before you can love others.
for me it has never worked that way.
and if the day comes .
then i will be truely be free.
i love all.
but find it difficult to receive.

So there ya go nugget, we do have something in common after all.
Far more than either of us suspected.
I believe what you describe and I also experience is not uncommon.

[heretogrow]

To be honest, I struggle with being judgemental when I feel something that is a part of my inherant being is devalued by others. This has shone it's face, most recently, in my current life situation, as I do not believe that I am the keeper of my children's souls, but that they have a chosen path which is sacred and will lead them to where they need to go. I have the ultimate faith in this process.

When I find myself in a confrontation of egos, I am reminded that everything I feel I lack, everything I perceive myself to need, I have experienced before (past lives), and the lessons that will serve to enlighten me will come when invited. We are whole. Pay attention when you feel the need to judge or project your own opinion. In that need there is a gift waiting to be discovered which will help unlock and take you to the next step.

It is such a wonderful process of growth. It is evolution. It is beautiful. It is ever- present at this time.

Much love, and yes this is the key to find the spark in which we are all connected!
Julia:)

[oceanz]

When did human's use of judgement based on physical senses (cold prickly feelings/chill down spine) to help survive potentially scary/hazardous situations resulting in action/inaction move to to judgement calls based on valuing someone elses self worth?

To what purpose does this now serve us?

[9eagle9]

At one time I found Tolle completely what you described. Boring and incomprehensible. After doing some ego softening work I found what he had to say much easier and relevant...and obvious. When that happened I at least knew some progress had been made.


've heard people say 'a new earth' was long, boring and incomprehensible and some even gave up on it - but I'm sharing in case you find something worth while in them.

[9eagle9]

When did human's use of judgement based on physical senses (cold prickly feelings/chill down spine) to help survive potentially scary/hazardous situations resulting in action/inaction move to to judgement calls based on valuing someone elses self worth?

To what purpose does this now serve us?

Physical ego? Based on instinctual behaviors and reflex?

[Teakai]

Understanding that there may be extenuating circumstance to the vast majority of situations is indeed a thoughtful perspective, I would agree..

for instance, the amusingly startling and rather unseemly analogy of chancing upon someone smearing their poop on the walls of a room -- if it was "my" room-- my immediate judgement of that person was that they were doing something "wrong" and that it was very "bad" -- there may well have been an extenuating circumstance, such as them being in the midst of a psychological crisis etc,but, nevertheless, I am still going to judge them in that moment as being a sh*t for doing that to "my" walls. You say you don't judge people, I can't believe it. Again, it is a judgement I am making.

error theory and dick cheney:

"Error theory is built by three principles:

1. There are no moral features in this world, nothing is right or wrong.
2. No moral judgments are true. (This is believed because of the first rule; since nothing is moral then there is no way to judge things as it being right or wrong).
3. Our sincere moral judgments try, and always fail, to describe the moral features of things."


Sorry, it is late here, so I hope you will allow me the grace of paraphrasing you; you said something to the effect:

"I never judge someone as being right or wrong"

please look again at the 1st condition of error theory:

There are no moral features in this world, nothing is right or wrong

To me, this sounds remarkably similar to your proposition.

It denies completely that there is any hope of a "universal morality" pervasive to our species.

You think Cheney is "misguided" but not "bad/wrong" -- I believe this is the meme of moral relativism which has been with great effort seeded into mass consciousness by societies' managers over the last century or so.
I believe this in itself is misguided, the inability to call out someone's actions as being patently Wrong. Moral relativism is pernicious.

2. No moral judgments are true.

Take it one step further and ironically it becomes "wrong" to "judge". By such "lines" of thought..We are being made morally impotent in the guise of becoming spiritually elevated is my contention.

3. Our sincere moral judgments try, and always fail, to describe the moral features of things."

philosophical sorcery

edit)
"Maybe he is just full up with his own self importance and feels perfectly justified in his actions. "

These could also be traits indicative of a sociopath but..I got off the fence already because it began to chafe. With over a million dead in Iraq, soaring cancer rates and generations to come with horrendous birth defects..allied to helliburton's projection of further reconstruction projects in the M.E. I would say it is SAFE TO SAY he is a sociopath. jmo

I said, I don't judge people.

If they do crap - it's because they are living from ego perspective. Crap being dependent on one's point of view.
If someone paints my walls with crap - then I say that is not a good thing to have my walls painted with crap.
But I don't judge a person as being their behaviour.

And their behaviour is determined by their acting in ego or being in soul.

From soul perspective you can say - "forgive them, father, they know not what they do." And then you find someone willing to clean up the mess or clean it up yourself.
From ego perspective you likely think the person is a total sh*t.

So - theory not relevent.
:)

[Teakai]

When did human's use of judgement based on physical senses (cold prickly feelings/chill down spine) to help survive potentially scary/hazardous situations resulting in action/inaction move to to judgement calls based on valuing someone elses self worth?

To what purpose does this now serve us?

Good question, Oceanz.
Where did this identification with ego begin.
Is it something that is a part of the human process always, so that we can make the journey beyond it?

There is no doubt that in our society our ego identity is encouraged. In fact, our society only stands because of the ego's on which it's built.

[Teakai]

At one time I found Tolle completely what you described. Boring and incomprehensible. After doing some ego softening work I found what he had to say much easier and relevant...and obvious. When that happened I at least knew some progress had been made.


It was a strange book.
I can't recall what most of it was about - but I was a different person by the time I'd finished reading it.

Mind, my perspective had already been altered by having digested the books by Michael Newton.

I think I just found it at the right time. I think I remember reading on it something like - if you're ready for this book it will change you. I think that's what happened in my case.

I'll have to chase the book down and check on that.

Yep - ego's an enigma for sure. I remember when I first read about the whole duality thing - I didn't believe it for a minute. How could I not be me.
But it was the introduction of the possibility of the duality that first started the ball rolling.
Now I see clearly the duality and I know that it is impossible to recognise it while I was standing in it.

Edit to add:
Found the book, blew of the dust and found that part I was thinking of.
Page 7: "This book is about you. It will change your state of consciousness or it will be meaningless."

It's a magic book!!
:)

[dan i el]

So - theory not relevent.
:)

If you want to believe that that is so, Teakai, that's fine by me, I don't judge you for it. :o

[Selene]

If I may?

I think when we use the term ‘judgement’ here – we actually mean it as ‘condemnation’ of the other. And that’s subtly different from true judgement, which might be better defined as ‘discernment’ and may be positive or negative.


And that’s where the fault lies in our thinking – we ‘judge’ the other as a means of bolstering our own shaky sense of self by pushing them ‘below’ our own standards – which we do not always honor in ourselves, do we? It’s much easier to mock the other.


So we are actually talking here about viewing the other without compassion or respect, (as Chicodoodoo, Giovanni and others have pointed out) which is viewing them without recognizing our own perhaps hard-earned learning along the way, without acknowledging that we, too, had to learn ‘not to do that’ by making the same mistakes even if perhaps in a previous lifetime. After all, we do not ‘judge’ an infant for being unable to walk or talk or eat solid food. We know they will learn and grow as we did. And emotional and spiritual growth follows the same principle.


When we ‘judge’ someone negatively, we are really only judging ourselves for the same – even if former – immaturity. It’s a sign that we have not yet forgiven ourselves for our own failings. We are condemning ourselves – and the first inklings of compassion and forgiveness therfore begins with ourselves. You cannot give to others what you do not yourself possess.

“Love one another as you would love yourself.”

“Charity [Greek: karitas or compassionate love] begins at home [i.e. within the self]”

From there, we can gain the perspective necessary to see others as fellow travellers along the journey. And ‘judgement’ can begin to grow into wisdom.

Hope this helps.

Regards,

Selene

[9eagle9]

Morality is part of social engineering. You notice moral standards shift every decade or so?. The women participating in this thread if it had occurred 130 years ago would have been considered fast, racy women and ostracized. In 1910 I couldn't show my ankles, in the 1920's I could show my thighs. Back up a few hundred years, and we would have been stoned for having the temerity to discuss this with you. In the 50's people would have turned their heads and just decided we'd never find suitable partners .In the 50's decent people didn't associate with blacks. In the 60's everyone would have welcomed us as sister... and an interacial marriage would have been socially acceptable in CERTAIN circles. Shifts around repeatedly.





@Teakai - yes, you said you don't judge good or bad, right or wrong -- this extracted text considers the inherent problems arising from Normative relativism.

But - I explained why I don't judge people as good or bad - right or wrong, and I don't see the excerpt you posted as being relevant to what I'm saying.

I've not heard of normative relativism before. Does normative relativism take into account spirituality - or is it based on a Darwinian outlook?

It's a philosophical concept/debate, so I imagine there are people of both outlooks participating..is it a loaded question?

"Moral nihilism (also known as ethical nihilism or amoralism), is the meta-ethical view that nothing is moral or immoral. For example, a moral nihilist would say that killing someone, for whatever reason, is neither inherently right nor inherently wrong. Morality may simply be a kind of make-believe, a complex set of rules and recommendations that represents nothing real and is seen as a human creation.
Error theory

Error theory is built by three principles:

1. There are no moral features in this world, nothing is right or wrong.
2. No moral judgments are true. (This is believed because of the first rule; since nothing is moral then there is no way to judge things as it being right or wrong).
3. Our sincere moral judgments try, and always fail, to describe the moral features of things.

Thus we always lapse into error when thinking in moral terms. We are trying to state the truth when we make moral judgments. But since there is no moral truth, all of our moral claims are mistaken. Hence the error. These three principles lead to the conclusion:

4. There is no moral knowledge. Knowledge requires truth. If there is no moral truth, there can be no moral knowledge. Thus moral values are make-believe. p.293.
Landau, Russ Shafer (2010). The Fundamentals of ethics. Oxford University Press.

I thought there was relevance.. but if you judge otherwise, that's okay!

[dan i el]

It is the very social engineering that is spoken of that paints the word judgement is a wholly negative light. it isn't necessarily so and I have yet to meet a handful of people of whom I can honestly say don't make judgements/assessments/appraisals of others and their ways. In terms of self reflection I see it as looking in an opaque mirror when one believes themselves wholly free of imbuing judgements upon others. I don't mean to cause rancor by saying this. Personally speaking, i judge myself and my own motivations as much as i do with anyone else and i think it quite natural..but potentially it is because I am unattached to my spirit and speaking purely from a egoistic standpoint, i don't think it is so though, tbh.

we haven't successfullyclarifiedthe word "judgment" and it is believed widely to be a bad thing, for some reason.

[greybeard]

There is no judgment in sticking to the facts.
Complaining is not to be confused with informing some one that there is a mistake or a deficiency so that it can be put right,
Telling the waiter that the soup is cold, asking the waiter to get it heated up is not a judgment, if you stick to the facts which are always neutral.

I was just listening to Eckhart Tolle reading his book "A New Earth" and that, which I paraphrased here came up.

There is a process called entrainment which permanently raises your consciousness, this happens when you are in the presence of an enlightened being or even reading a book written by them. As said earlier by Teakai reading Eckhart Tolle's book changed her, it changed me too.
I can recommend it.
Much of what I have posted in the Enlightenment: Ego what is it? How to transcend" tread over the last year was influenced by Eckhart Tolle and Dr David Hawkins.
The ego is judgmental, it loves to be right to make others wrong.
Discernment is quite different and based on fact not opinion.

Namaste

[manny]

There is no judgment in sticking to the facts.
Complaining is not to be confused with informing some one that there is a mistake or a deficiency so that it can be put right,
Telling the waiter that the soup is cold, asking the waiter to get it heated up is not a judgment, if you stick to the facts which are always neutral.

I was just listening to Eckhart Tolle reading his book "A New Earth" and that, which I paraphrased here came up.

There is a process called entrainment which permanently raises your consciousness, this happens when you are in the presence of an enlightened being or even reading a book written by them. As said earlier by Teakai reading Eckhart Tolle's book changed her, it changed me too.
I can recommend it.
Much of what I have posted in the Enlightenment: Ego what is it? How to transcend" tread over the last year was influenced by Eckhart Tolle and Dr David Hawkins.
The ego is judgmental, it loves to be right to make others wrong.
Discernment is quite different and based on fact not opinion.

Namaste

thanks i was thinking of sending you a pm today at work.
to see what books are good for guidence and beginners.
you,ve just answered me .but i would appreciate any further readings.

[Teakai]

I love this story http://www.rainbowbody.com/newarticles/farmerson.htm it shows how little we can judge the good or bad of a situation. How it all depends on our point of view, our own situation.
We don't have complete knowledge of what is done or why it's done - we can only take what is and use it to grow from - or not. The choice is alwasy ours.

I know that as souls we come here with a plan - we may need to remain in ego so as to carry out what we need to experience that learning - but whatever happens, there is always something we can learn from it. Even as a witness, if not a participant.

Knowing this, by what reason, or logic can I judge another person to be good or bad or any such thing? This is their journey also. I can learn from what they do, but I can't judge them for what they do, because it is their plan, made at a level of complete consciousness. I don't know what their lesson is. I don't know what they planned for this trip. I don't know what agrements they made with others. So, on what do I base my judgment?

All I can do - and all each one of us can do, is find our own seat in soul (done by standing back from ego illusion) and from that perspective follow the truth. Then morality decisions aren't an issue, because from the place of soul you are in a place of truth.

[Gardener]

Does anyone ever read a post and think 'this person doesn't really understand the subject' or maybe you feel like posting because you think they have the wrong idea, which they may well have. Judgement takes many forms, but our response in making a judgement almost always has us in the 'I can see and must be correct' mind set, an opinion which may or may not be based in experience and knowledge. It seems to me that what Teakai is saying is that at the point of judgement/opinion, (we all have them) after making discernment, no judgement is necessary as the person who is being judged is where they are in their life path, therefore to let it be as it is.
(Have I understood correctly?)

[Anchor]

The lot of you are complete freaking idiots - you are all wrong and too stupid too realize - only my opinion is valid here!

(LOL - only joking - I wanted to start with a crash/reset on this post - so back down soldiers!)

One can of course make judgements in cold, dispassionate, ego-less and totally objective terms (unlike my example above), which ought not be disputed - but they will be and this is one of the problems with them.

You may not think its your problem how other people react, but I think it is. Your judgements will be disputed either by the forum member on the receiving end, or by some other reader - even if you were only observing or assessing without the influence of ego, or where all the influence of ego had been subsequently removed from your views.

Worse in my view, such views may go unexpressed by a hitherto silent reader, going on to compound their possible reluctance to even risk posting anything at all.

I certainly think that this is the main subject addressed by this thread.

If I make a judgemental statement, no matter if it be from an ego position or a well thought out objective position - and "assessment" in the meaning as used earlier in this thread - can one say higher-minded? - it runs the risk of causing some reactive emotion in any reader who has not viewed it from a similar perspective.

When I see criticism concerning a judgemental post (which are in the main, ego related) it is almost always range in the realms of: "how dare you" or "what made you so superior", "you are full of sh1t"... etc. The forum equivalent of a fight or flight response!

I maintain that even though strictly speaking it should be unnecessary to spend extra time reconstructing/wording judgemental posts to have a more gentle mode delivery - it is still worth the effort in most cases - unless you already know well the impact you are aiming for.

We live in a disharmonious world, and such niceties help to navigate our way though the disorder without causing more of it. Until such times as we operate from a similar level of perspective and then at such times we will probably not be motivated to share our perspectives on forums any longer :)

John..

[manny]

Does anyone ever read a post and think 'this person doesn't really understand the subject' or maybe you feel like posting because you think they have the wrong idea, which they may well have. Judgement takes many forms, but our response in making a judgement almost always has us in the 'I can see and must be correct' mind set, an opinion which may or may not be based in experience and knowledge. It seems to me that what Teakai is saying is that at the point of judgement/opinion, (we all have them) after making discernment, no judgement is necessary as the person who is being judged is where they are in their life path, therefore to let it be as it is.
(Have I understood correctly?)
my thought on this is there are many people who are educated.
and there are many people who are undereducated.
through no fault of their own.
but a undereducated person who trys to better themselves in either education,personal growth,spiritualty ect,
they will find it difficult to try and keep up.
so yes a person may start a thread,and that thread may go a lot deeper than his understanding.
but has it not started something that all learn by,in their own time.

[Teakai]

Does anyone ever read a post and think 'this person doesn't really understand the subject' or maybe you feel like posting because you think they have the wrong idea, which they may well have. Judgement takes many forms, but our response in making a judgement almost always has us in the 'I can see and must be correct' mind set, an opinion which may or may not be based in experience and knowledge. It seems to me that what Teakai is saying is that at the point of judgement/opinion, (we all have them) after making discernment, no judgement is necessary as the person who is being judged is where they are in their life path, therefore to let it be as it is.
(Have I understood correctly?)


Pretty much, Gardener.

If we know at soul level that each one of us is a soul having a human experience – what is it we’re judging?

It’s just humans thinking they’re humans running around judging others from their own limited perspective.

That doesn’t mean that if we see something that we feel we ought to speak out about that we should just go away and mind our own business. We are all interactive. We need to listen to our own inner voice to guide us in our action. And to find that point of truth we must each stop identifying ourselves as being our ego.

[Newlyn]

who are we to judge.

my first person i argued with was on chat.
this person called the people that are not awake idiots.


i laid into him,and said there are no idiots.
just undereducated people.

i came to this forum to find like minded people.
what i found was people who are much higher educated and evolved than myself.


will there always be a hierarchy.
or will people just excpect what a person is.

Don't worry nugget, you aren't one of the posters that causes issues on the forum, so I doubt anyone feels a need to censure or censor you.

now i don,t feel the need for this comment.
what is a nugget?
a idiot?
what is a idiot?
someone who is under educated?

imo.if you know more than another person,and they make mistakes,and they don,t quite get to the piont.as quickly as you expect.

then educate that person.
does that person not have a right to be informed.
take your time.

is it easier to disregard that person.
but hey if that person takes on a little of what you say and learns by it.

does that not make you feel that you have achieved something.

there are no nuggets and their are no idiots.

one path one goal
let go of the ego.

How much have I not thought about this. Who can tell who is more evolved? And in what way? We are to learn many different things, maybe that x guru now is working at the car-repair, or anything really.

Don't look at a person like that, cause god is dwelling inside of him. See the buddha in everyone. Jesus said, who is last will be first, and to be big you have to be small.

I judged my sister a while ago. Now I feel how it came back to me, how I aligned myself with that reality. No more, I say, it leads to no good.

I am sorry.

I don't know what I feared, but theese things has to go, or I will go with it.

Love, that is all I want to give.

[noxon medem]

two sentences on subject matter,
directly relevant, or just asosiation

- anyway
petty moralism is a bitch
( a herring ..)
personal morale is a fish
( solid at hand)


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xCwLirQS2-o
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xCwLirQS2-o
monty python, fish slapping dance

- love and laughter, all,
lovu and after ...