Unplugging the Patriarchy - a new interview with Lucia Rene

[Bill Ryan]

--------

Hi, All:

This new video, with author, teacher, mystic, and woman's activist Lucia René, is an intriguing discussion about the role of women - and men - in today's world: essentially an esoteric perspective on what could be called the depth psychology of power.

Lucia states that the days of the Patriarchy - which has been in command on Planet Earth for thousands of years - are coming to an end. Women are now beginning to stand in their own power... and with it, the role of men is being redefined.

Whatever gender you are, this is a timely and deeply interesting interview. Lucia's book is an important one for our changing times, and as a man - apologizing for the abusive attitudes and actions of many of my fellow men for countless generations - I'm delighted to be giving it the prominence it deserves.

Enjoy. :)

http://unplugfromthepatriarchy.com (http://unplugfromthepatriarchy.com/)

MP3 download: http://projectavalon.net/Lucia_Rene_Unplugging_the_Patriarchy_Bill_Ryan_Project_Avalon_10_March_2011.mp3

Video download: http://projectavalon.net/Lucia_Rene_Unplugging_the_Patriarchy_Bill_Ryan_Project_Avalon_10_March_2011.mp4

http://youtube.com/watch?v=e4vPyClAHqs



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e4vPyClAHqs

[Lord Sidious]

Why would you apologise for something that other people did Bill?
That is part of the guilt complex they put into us, reject it.
We will accumulate enough guilt for the things we do ourselves without taking onboard more.

[Bill Ryan]

Why would you apologise for something that other people did Bill?
That is part of the guilt complex they put into us, reject it.
We will accumulate enough guilt for the things we do ourselves without taking onboard more.

As a man, I was apologizing for the things that men have done to women over the last several thousand years.

Saying "I don't have to apologize, it was nothing to do with me" is exactly the kind of thing that men do. :)

You may not have had time yet to watch the entire interview. At one point I talk about Truth and Reconciliation, citing the Commission established in South Africa in 1995 after the end of Apartheid.

The objective was not to establish guilt or to apportion blame: it was to tell the truth so that a chapter could be ended.

That was the sense in which I apologized: a recognition that these things have been happening.

[sepia]

Why would you apologise for something that other people did Bill?
That is part of the guilt complex they put into us, reject it.
We will accumulate enough guilt for the things we do ourselves without taking onboard more.

I know it might sound strange...

I very much loved reading that Bill apologized (I would rather say: ask for forgiveness) for things others did. (The words are used a bit differently in German though...)

Imagine you have experienced something terrible (most of us have in one way or the other) and I'd listen to your experience very closely with all my love and compassion, and then I would honestly bend my head and hold your hands saying:

"I apologize with all my heart for what was done to you." -

In this way I would give your pain and grief a space within my own compassion, within my love - and this can allow you to let go of it.

Try it: I honestly, honestly ask you for forgiveness for what was done to you.

[Calz]

For those of us who believe in reincarnation ... I expect we have all made contributions to patriarchy over the last couple thousand years. Most familiar with past life regression also say we experience both genders as well as a wide variance of social conditions.

That said, as others suggest, this should not be about blame but rather forgiveness, healing and moving forward.

[jorr lundstrom]

It was an exellent inteview with a most charming, knowledgeable and powerful woman.

I really liked it. I hope you apologized on my behalf too, Bill. Thank you. :thumb:


This world is filled to the brim with feminin energy. So ladies and

gents supply your self for next stage of the journey.:kiss:

[bennycog]

hey bill is the video available for download?

[The Arthen]

I apologize as well.

[Bill Ryan]

hey bill is the video available for download?

Yes: http://projectavalon.net/Lucia_Rene_Unplugging_the_Patriarchy_Bill_Ryan_Project_Avalon_10_March_2011.mp4

The audio download is the same URL, but with .mp3 as the suffix.

[Lord Sidious]

Why would you apologise for something that other people did Bill?
That is part of the guilt complex they put into us, reject it.
We will accumulate enough guilt for the things we do ourselves without taking onboard more.

As a man, I was apologizing for the things that men have done to women over the last several thousand years.

Saying "I don't have to apologize, it was nothing to do with me" is exactly the kind of thing that men do. :)

You may not have had time yet to watch the entire interview. At one point I talk about Truth and Reconciliation, citing the Commission established in South Africa in 1995 after the end of Apartheid.

The objective was not to establish guilt or to apportion blame: it was to tell the truth so that a chapter could be ended.

That was the sense in which I apologized: a recognition that these things have been happening.

I recognise your motives, that isn't a problem.
The thing is, we are being conditioned to apologise for things that we have not done ourselves and more importantly, would not do.
Take Australia for example. We have sorry day where we are expected to say sorry every year for the things that the alleged authorities did to the aborigines.
I would not have ever thought of any of what they did do, let alone do it.
Guilt is a funny thing, it can form a roadblock on our spiritual path, one that can be hard to circumvent.
Trust me on this, I have struggled with it for years.
That is why I make the comments.



Why would you apologise for something that other people did Bill?
That is part of the guilt complex they put into us, reject it.
We will accumulate enough guilt for the things we do ourselves without taking onboard more.

I know it might sound strange...

I very much loved reading that Bill apologized (I would rather say: ask for forgiveness) for things others did. (The words are used a bit differently in German though...)

Imagine you have experienced something terrible (most of us have in one way or the other) and I'd listen to your experience very closely with all my love and compassion, and then I would honestly bend my head and hold your hands saying:

"I apologize with all my heart for what was done to you." -

In this way I would give your pain and grief a space within my own compassion, within my love - and this can allow you to let go of it.

Try it: I honestly, honestly ask you for forgiveness for what was done to you.

I know full well the power of empathy and I get it, I just don't believe in the guilt spreading.

[Bill Ryan]

I recognise your motives, that isn't a problem.
The thing is, we are being conditioned to apologise for things that we have not done ourselves and more importantly, would not do.
Take Australia for example. We have sorry day where we are expected to say sorry every year for the things that the alleged authorities did to the aborigines.
I would not have ever thought of any of what they did do, let alone do it.
Guilt is a funny thing, it can form a roadblock on our spiritual path, one that can be hard to circumvent.
Trust me on this, I have struggled with it for years.
That is why I make the comments.


Dear Lord Sid:

This is not a push-back. Take a pause and read again what Sepia and I were both saying (different views of the same elephant).

When you wrote


Trust me on this, I have struggled with it for years.

... may I say: that's evident. You're reading guilt (ask yourself if this is your projection...) where neither Sepia or I were talking about guilt at all. We're talking about acknowledgement. That's entirely different.

Trust me on this - I do not feel guilty. And neither should you. But I still acknowledge the wrongdoing.

[ThePythonicCow]

I think Lord Sidious on the one hand, and Sepia and Bill on the other hand, are speaking from two different perspectives.

From the point of view of someone who takes responsibility for their actions as a separate individual, you don't apologize for the acts of another. You just don't. I can well understand where you're coming from, Lord Sidious, if that's what you're saying.

But from a more caring, more connected perspective, apologizing as was done above is -not- saying "I did it and I should not have", but rather saying to the other person "You are not to blame for what befell you, I acknowledge the pain it caused, and I reach out to you with a healing touch." To be honest, I don't understand that view myself as well, but that's what I heard Bill and Sepia speaking of, and I treasure it.

[Calz]

Simply put ... when my wife, child or whomever says "I have a headache ... or hurt my elbow ... (etc) I say "I am sorry" or "I am sorry to hear that" showing empathy for their pain.

I am certainly *not* showing guilt or taking responsibility (athough my wife having a headache could be debatable :) )

[ThePythonicCow]

Take Australia for example. We have sorry day where we are expected to say sorry every year for the things that the alleged authorities did to the aborigines.
I would not have ever thought of any of what they did do, let alone do it.
I don't know of that practice (sorry day) personally, but from what you say it sounds like a rather sorry state of affairs to me too, Lord Sidious.

It sounds not like personally giving another person acknowledgment, caring and reassurance that they are not to blame for what befell them, but rather like another sort of bad mind trip that TPTB send us on, to weaken each of us with guilt and set one against the other.

It does not sound like what I heard Bill and Sepia speaking of.

[Gajanana]

Wonderful woman, super information and Bill... you're the nuts mate :cool:

[Lord Sidious]

Dear Lord Sid:

This is not a push-back. Take a pause and read again what Sepia and I were both saying (different views of the same elephant).

When you wrote


Trust me on this, I have struggled with it for years.

... may I say: that's evident. You're reading guilt (ask yourself if this is your projection...) where neither Sepia or I were talking about guilt at all. We're talking about acknowledgement. That's entirely different.

Trust me on this - I do not feel guilty. And neither should you. But I still acknowledge the wrongdoing.

Bill, I know you too well to take offense at your posts.
You are right about me and projecting guilt, but you already knew that.
I have no problems with acknowledging wrong doings, that is only fair and natural.
It isn't so much you guys and the guilt, I suppose I did it again, I know the context of what I meant, but didn't think about it when I posted, no one else does yet.
It is the others, the ones that are the distractors, the ones paid to make us do anything negative, that is how they operate.
Whether it is the feminists getting women to hate men, the communists getting workers to hate the middle class, whatever flavour we like to show, that is their modus operandi.


I think Lord Sidious on the one hand, and Sepia and Bill on the other hand, are speaking from two different perspectives.

From the point of view of someone who takes responsibility for their actions as a separate individual, you don't apologize for the acts of another. You just don't. I can well understand where you're coming from, Lord Sidious, if that's what you're saying.

But from a more caring, more connected perspective, apologizing as was done above is -not- saying "I did it and I should not have", but rather saying to the other person "You are not to blame for what befell you, I acknowledge the pain it caused, and I reach out to you with a healing touch." To be honest, I don't understand that view myself as well, but that's what I heard Bill and Sepia speaking of, and I treasure it.

Yeah, Paul, you got what I meant.
You got both sides and you figured out the crossed wires.
Thanks for your input.



Take Australia for example. We have sorry day where we are expected to say sorry every year for the things that the alleged authorities did to the aborigines.
I would not have ever thought of any of what they did do, let alone do it.
I don't know of that practice (sorry day) personally, but from what you say it sounds like a rather sorry state of affairs to me too, Lord Sidious.

It sounds not like personally giving another person acknowledgment, caring and reassurance that they are not to blame for what befell them, but rather like another sort of bad mind trip that TPTB send us on, to weaken each of us with guilt and set one against the other.

It does not sound like what I heard Bill and Sepia speaking of.

You are correct in saying what it is and what it isn't.
I have to remember to make sure I explain my context before I hit the post button.

[lightblue]

bill:
As a man, I was apologizing for the things that men have done to women over the last several thousand years.

Saying "I don't have to apologize, it was nothing to do with me" is exactly the kind of thing that men do.

polarising this issue using male/female assumed distinction doesn't begin to make a good premise from which to start a discussion..

what is that that "males" did to females that didn't take females' buying into and making it possible? (and for the root causes of women's discrimination in society, maybe refer to clara zetkin and other early 20th century female political activists)

in my understanding, crossing the boundaries of the old paradigm is about recognising that both male and female dwell in each and every one of us..also acknowlidging lethal tendency to give aggresive/competitive impulses an undeserved legitimacy...the resolution therefore has to lie in surpassing that mentality as whole - it cannot be confined to males alone..

the way i see it: humility is good - apologies work when lovingly targeted...or else, things may begin to sound as if from a confession box...best wishes :wink: l

.

[Lily de Cuir]

Hello Everyone,

Seems like guilt and blame is a touchy subject here and just not with regards to women. Interesting..., I think it's opened up a can of worms in more ways than one.

One of my ancestors was an early pioneer in Oz and lived with the Aboriginals, treated them well and with utmost respect and was ostrosized and destroyed personally by another well-known Australian pioneer for doing so. As well my ancestor provided the foundation for the oldest company in Australia, still going strong today. Long story. He was an 'elite'. You never see him in the history books of course.

I personally have no guilt over the treatment of our Aboriginal people, certainly not from my ancestor, nor from anything I have ever done. But do I apologise and say sorry for what has happened to our Aboriginal people in our short history. Of course I do! It's a no-brainer, it has nothing to do with guilt, it has everything to do with empathy and compassion. Guilt is a personal thing. Empathy is for the whole. You don't have to feel guilt to feel empathy.

Studying Aboriginal history has also deepened my sadness and sorryness. I will never be sorry for saying sorry.

Kind regards,
Lily

[ulli]

I think it is high time that Avalon start a Sorry Day for what's been done to women around here.

Pick a date, everyone.
How about 11/11/11?
;)

[ulli]

Oh, by the way, speaking for myself here as a woman, Bill, apology accepted.

Lord Sid, for the next 24 hours you will be reliving all your female past lives in all parallel universes....

Meet you here tomorrow and see what you have to say for yourself then....

[HaveBlue]

Well I'll try and be as quick as I can here. We as men (remember there's only one of us here as DW says) have done some pretty awful things to others including fellow men, women , indiginous races etc... over the eons.

I have been told by someone I greatly respect I have killed and been killed in previous lives. I am pleased to say this time around I have neither harmed women , children or animals. I have however given a couple of thrashings to some bullies, thugs call them what you will. No I'm not proud of it but seek and you shall find and that is precisely what they did.

Yes us skinny white guys are the ones to watch out for- As said in Batman ! ' it's the willigness to take action'.
Women's time has come and I'm all for it. Not because they are women but because they can do the task at hand as good as anyone else.
That is only 'some' women. just because you are a woman does not make you in the same league as another that has proven herself. Same goes with anyone, men included.

[Anna]

Beautiful Bill, thank you for a great interview with an inspiring lady.

I was never eloquent enough to express the power of the patriarchy in a way that was socially acceptable and I am happy to know other women are.
Although I like George Kavassilas manner of apologising; he kneeled before his wife-to-be and poured his heart out, your apology is accepted.

hug form Anna

[ulli]

Look at those countries where women aren't considered equal with men....just LOOK at them!

[greybeard]

Its a two way street, I have suffered mentally, emotionally, physically at the hands of women including my late mother whom I love very deeply.
I accept that it is my karma.
I was probably getting paid back for past life actions.
There is no person in my life (past and present) male or female that I would not be happy to see and they would be pleased to see me.

I have no problem with personally extending love and accepting that women have been mistreated in the past and present by men in general.
I have no difficulty in apologizing for any offense I have give anyone male or female.

When I was a child, in Scottish Culture women were venerated, respected, highly thought of, the mistress of the house, first teacher for the child.
Men stood up when women entered the room tipped their hats opened doors and more.
Now Im afraid to open a door for a woman or be protective in case I get accused of being patronizing which would be the furthest thing from my mind,
Its natural for me, my early conditioning.

I honestly think that the media has a lot to answer for in the downgrading of women.
Their sexuality is used to sell every kind of product.
Music videos are soft porn.
Its not enough to be a good singer with a good song, it has to be the total package, which is disposable.
Respect has gone for both men and women.
Women are rarely feminine now, men rarely, truly male, both need to support each other not be in competition.
As far as spirituality goes we are a soul which is neither male or female yet both.
So within us individually we need to balance the male and female energies to bring out the best in us..

Chris

[Lord Sidious]

Look at those countries where women aren't considered equal with men....just LOOK at them!

Don't worry about the nuggets, that attitude is almost ready for the scrapheap.
I never understood that mindset.
Women are secondclass, but our mothers, sisters, our soulmates are women.
I don't even want to comprehend the paradox, I am content to see it extinct.

[jjl]

"both need to support each other not be in competition."
amen brother!

[Lord Sidious]

To put my posts in context, wax on, wax off.
I am not there yet, still learning.
Still projecting too, by the looks.
Gonna have to be REAL careful around these here parts.

[Calz]

What a superb interview!!! I hope everyone takes the time for it.

Lucia presents vital information for the world in a powerful and lucid manner (love her laugh) and Bill does the dance as the interviewer as well as ever.

Positive, postive energy here! Very uplifting.

Will get the book (yet another read) and this is one I would never have picked up without some help pointing me in that direction.

For that thank you sincerely :hail: :first:

[Maria Stade]

Lord Sidious
Gonna have to be REAL careful around these here parts.

No you dont, hiding is not the way.

Shine your truth and it can be transformed if it is off line.

When i met Jorr the first time He told me something that was the opposite of what I belived and understod.
I kindly told him that I accepted his way of seeing it but it was not my way and it didnt fit to my knowledge of the subjekt.

I was very anoied and could not let it go.

Then it suddenly struck me...... he was absolutly right.

Speak your truth even if it is the opposite of what all others say/think/belive.

It takes kurage to speak ones truth and that is the warrior mission.

Namaste

[Maria Stade]

Look at those countries where women aren't considered equal with men....just LOOK at them!

They are as they are !

We will change all by doing the right thing to our self and speak up.

When the tiime is right they will be able to change.

Namaste

[ktlight]

Thank you, Bill, for the interview. It was a very interesting insight.

My understanding is that all that is feminine was being addressed and that is natural maybe to take it in on a personal level, and I took your apology to a deeper level and thank you for it as a role leader that you are, made on behalf of all that is male.

You may remember Ike Turner who was crucified for years after his marital violence became public. The impact on him was overwhelming. Even years later all sorts of material was being launched on that violence, and a whole lot of money was made. I do not condone violence of any kind, but I did feel the hypocricy that was displayed as a result of it. It was like Ike was the villain in the entire world, when it was always a worldwide problem, much more common in most cultures. Ike did apologise for his actions.

So, yes, your apology is very much appreciated and I thank you on my own behalf.

I would be so grateful if Bill reports on the book, once he has read it.

[MariaDine]

http://uncivilsociety.org/charles-schulz-peanuts-5.jpg

Namasté

[Arpheus]

Thank you Bill this has been by far one of the best interviews i have ever seen right along the Marcel Messing one,she drove me to tears more then once during my viewing,i am glad to say i have always been different from the norm when it comes down to being connected with my emotional body more then most guys out there,although sometimes there is a downside to it but i am not afraid to cry like a baby when i feel liberated and i get that lump out of my throat by doing it so,what an amazing being of light she is,would love to meet her in person loved it,once again thank you!

[000]

Excellent interview. It is spot on.

Interesting sync of note: At the very end she says "We've got the tsunami coming in..." "...we've got to surf the wave..." and this was on March 10th...

She mentions, during the interview, riding right up the to edge of the cliff as it were. I feel we're at the beginning of that arrival at the edge (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bz8iEJeh26E) right now, marked by March 11th's events.

I don't like following any doctrines whatsoever, but there is a Zen kōan I dig which is quite apropos at the moment:

"The light of the eyes is as a comet,
And Zen's activity is as lightning.
The sword that kills the man
Is the sword that saves the man."

Rehearsal is over. Time to mount up. :crazy_pilot::neo::crazy_pilot:

[Tao O]

There is such a thing as the 'collective consciousness' in which we all share the 'all of everything'. It seems that somewhere in the collective psyche we are touched in many ways over many incarnations and have lived the entire spectrum in human evolution.( i. e. we have killed and been killed, loved and been loved). We are in a school (planet earth), learning how to be more conscious and loving...learning from our collective mistakes...and moving forward. I do not feel we have to justify, explain, or rationalize, guilt or no guilt....for all of our past exists/is recorded. And who knows how often we are tapping into, and coming from such imprints.

How do we know we are not healing our collective and individual past mistakes by a heartfelt "apology'.

Whether said aloud or just inside, a statement from the HEART of our individual self expression could be coming from an unfathomable depth of inner knowing. Let each of our hearts speak for both the collective and individual soul threads of our collective and individual selves and lives.

We are so much more than these little minds and bodies, living linear lives. I feel Bill was coming from this inner Self , inner knowing, and inner feeling and speaking to and for all of us....thanks, Bill. "we're connected' quantum-ly w/love

[Lord Sidious]

Lord Sidious
Gonna have to be REAL careful around these here parts.

No you dont, hiding is not the way.

Shine your truth and it can be transformed if it is off line.

When i met Jorr the first time He told me something that was the opposite of what I belived and understod.
I kindly told him that I accepted his way of seeing it but it was not my way and it didnt fit to my knowledge of the subjekt.

I was very anoied and could not let it go.

Then it suddenly struck me...... he was absolutly right.

Speak your truth even if it is the opposite of what all others say/think/belive.

It takes kurage to speak ones truth and that is the warrior mission.

Namaste

That was one of my little jokes.

[meeradas]

Brilliant interview - most excellent!!
'Extended' thanks from here!

Once again, someone real voicing what i have felt for years, that's very reassuring - am very grateful for this.

Can't tell you how much this resonates.

The old windup egg-timer is ticking still... but the bell has rung already some time ago.

[Maria Stade]

Lord Sidious
That was one of my little jokes.

Oh Lord do ya think a little nugget can grasp that LOL
:kiss:

[jorr lundstrom]

Take it easy. Its all about balance. The end of patriarchy doesnt mean a start

of a matriarchy. The balance is to be inside every human being, masculine and

feminine energy in balance inside each and every one. We arrived on this planet

where patriarchy was the model of the era. We could not choose between patriarchy

and matriarchy. We have all done our best to act out the roles handed to us. Now it

is important to acknowledge the women for their suffering during this era. And I

think its as important to acknowledge the men for the role they have been forced to play.

If anyone imagines it is always a pleasure to have to act as the strong one when your

soul just want to cry out in despair, please think again. Lets hope we all will make this

transition without to much tumult. :horn::kiss:

[Maria Stade]

Jorr
acknowledge the men for the role they have been forced to play.


:grouphug: Yes the programe have hurt both sides !

There is a lot to heal before balance can be.

[Calz]

Lord Sidious
Gonna have to be REAL careful around these here parts.

No you dont, hiding is not the way.

Shine your truth and it can be transformed if it is off line.

When i met Jorr the first time He told me something that was the opposite of what I belived and understod.
I kindly told him that I accepted his way of seeing it but it was not my way and it didnt fit to my knowledge of the subjekt.

I was very anoied and could not let it go.

Then it suddenly struck me...... he was absolutly right.

Speak your truth even if it is the opposite of what all others say/think/belive.

It takes kurage to speak ones truth and that is the warrior mission.

Namaste

That was one of my little jokes.

Lol

I was gonna reply you were not the shy type when it comes to posting your thoughts ... but thought it best coming from you :)

I even considered a few Star Wars images/messages ... but why take away from the "master". :laser:

Your deep insight on many topics is well appreciated.

[DianeKJ]

What a lovely and timely interview. What made it wonderful from my perspective was the way you conducted the interview Bill, so thank you sincerely for that. I greatly enjoyed watching the two of you converse and share perspectives on energy... beautiful really.

It bears to be spoken again, it's not about power being bad or dark, but the abuse of power.
It's not about judgement but aknowlegement.
It is all about learning, growing and evolving and it is unstoppable.
Namaste Avalon Family~
Di

[shiva777]

yeah..Lucia Renee..I read her book,liked it but she "dismantled" just a iitle of the patriarchy,the outer edges of the architecture,not the root of it..

...again,it's about energetic architecture that goes VERY deep..there is an INSERTED IMBALANCE in the electron(male) and proton(female) spins..our reality has been literally ELECTRIFIED by negative ET interference that lead to this split in the human psyche and it's male dominated mentality and function and socieities support of patriarchal behaviours..the electron overpowers the proton at the very deepest particle level of our hologram,an UNNATURAL state of affairs leading to energetic vampirism and resulting in over mentalisation and control through force..the patriarchy..."charles" type philiosophies result..survival of the fittest in a dog eat dog world...it is NOT Lucia or anyone else in particular that is "dismantling" the patriarchy,it is the universes intention to do so as the balance is being reset,it is being done through all of us,some more than others though ..and wether or not you comply determines wether or not you get to enjoy the balancing ride in this hologram

If you are going to go around apologising for this negative ET holographic insert in to the very physics of our hologram that has resulted in this masculine/electron dominance and damaged psyche of humanity then you may just as well apologise to EVERYONE AND EVERYTHING..apologise to every MALE,FEMALE and to every particle for ,at some level we have all agreed to be part of this hologram and agreed to allow the ET invasion of the physics of this game

MEN HAVE BEEN JUST AS DAMAGED AS WOMAN BY THE PATRIARCHAL HOLOGRAPHIC INSERT.

the balance is returning...the zero-point field which contains both the electron and proton in perfect harmony and balance is coming back....until now it hasn't been possible to have TRUE SACRED UNION,twin flame coupling etc because our hologram would not support that,,and it also has not been possible to have TRUE ENLIGHTENMENT because the physics of our hologram would not ALLOW that...the artificial "oneness" that so many claim to be in will be exposed for the trap it is soon enough and TRUE ONENESS will once again be possible in this hologram as it will allow true electron/proton balance..resulting in the neutral field of TRUE ONENESS...in the meanwhile watch as the "no-ego" so-called "enlightened ones" and their followers go through some pretty severe reality checks

I haven't listened to this interview yet,but my thanks to Bill for doing it

[lightblue]

.
i would like to extend my sypathies to everyone's gold fishes for being kept the way they have been... :sad: l

.

[Deega]

Hi Bill,

Great interview, contributions!, thanks, here is a few remarks.

We have been divided for years, masculine, feminine, ying, yang, negative, positive, is it an opportune time to write on a subject using ancient Indian Chakra Energies? yes!, I would think so!, but will it have an impact on our world...?

I mean the Financial World that is run, still, by the Patriarchy, hmm!, will they buy in this type of philosophy? Not sure! Personally, I would gladly hope so!

Do one buy in the Galactic Federation as mentioned in the video, if we do, we would need to be in with the good ET, otherwise, from Anton Parks works, the Gina-Abul were patriarchal as possible, but this is a point of view of an author.

And on the Industrial level, the administrative systems within corporations are based on military construct (patriarchy), we have work to do here!

Hopefully, this philosophy will take hold in developed Nations, but, it will, unfortunately, be a different story in undeveloped Nations.

I think that there were abuses on both sides for ages. And if reincarnation is truth, we were born on different sexes for ages, and if Karma is truth, we have been paying all of us for ages also.

My blessings.

Deega

[NancyV]

Lucia reminds me of two of my long time friends who are both spiritual teachers/counselors, artists and published authors. Their subject: the Divine Feminine and Healing the Gap between male and female. Both are very similar to Lucia in their talks and I could have been listening to either one of them speaking as her interview progressed.

I have had many wonderful arguments with them over the 30 years I've known them both. My perspective on the "patriarchy" is a bit different from theirs AND from Lucia's. They all are self-styled women's rights proponents and that is not something I am overly fond of. Not that I'm against women being treated fairly but quite often women's rights activists or proponents are anti men, whether or not they CLAIM they are not judging but just stating facts.

I detected this almost subconscious and unacknowledged hostility or enmity towards men in Lucia's interview. She seems to be loving and accepting and said multiple times that she was not judging men. I don't believe that. Not that it matters because we all judge others all the time. But if you're putting yourself across as one thing and it doesn't ring true, then there could be a bit of a disparity between what you say and how you actually feel. That unacknowledged resentment can color your views and this crusade to make others aware of the evils of the patriarchy will be imbalanced.

One of the times I detected some very subtle disdain for males was when she said "I have had very few incarnations as a man". It felt to me like she was saying it as something that was a relief to her or that she was proud of. Another time was when she said that women are more equipped to lead because they are more capable of wielding power in a balanced way. I completely disagree with that statement and I think it indicates great prejudice and bias.

Another statement of which I took note was when she said something about men either being macho or the type who would buy roses everyday. I have a husband who is so far beyond macho that the term macho is a weak one to describe him, but he used to bring me roses at LEAST 4 days a week until I got sick of always having to be dealing with dead flowers. When he stopped buying flowers at my request he then switched to Beanie Babies! So now I'm stuck with boxes and boxes of beanie babies. My point being that a man who is very manly can still be silly and romantic. I'm convinced that he just happens to love funny little stuffed animals and I am a good excuse for him to buy them. LOL

Lucia does frequently state that it's all about balance. With that I agree and I find this emphasis on the evils of the male dominated society to be completely out of balance with ACTUAL balance. The fight against a thing can increase its power and the emphasis on male versus female is just another game in the duality which both sides perpetuate. Women are also controllers and manipulators. Their methods are more insidious and subtle but still extremely powerful. Women have used men for eons for their own purposes and because males actually have a stronger sexual desire for women it gives women more control to manipulate them to fulfill their wishes.

Even in long ago predominantly matriarchal tribes or societies the women in control most frequently used men to do the jobs they didn't want to do themselves. Often in a society that might be thought to be matriarchal the queen or ruling woman was mainly a figurehead and controlled by a man or men. So it cannot be said that a society or tribe is either controlled by a matriarchy or a patriarchy. Male dominated societies may be more overt and dominant but a female in charge will still be pulling strings and manipulating in any way she can.

Perhaps as a woman Lucia might want to consider apologizing for manipulating and using men which women have been doing since the beginning of life here on earth. Personally I will not be apologizing for anything. I always have compassion for anyone who is mistreated, male, female or child. To emphasize one group or gender over another only adds to the imbalance in my opinion.

For over 30 years I have been hearing that the male dominated paradigm is ending imminently. I gave up listening to that prediction a long time ago. No one knows that things are going to change radically in 2012. Change is a constant and I will be very surprised to see something huge take place on 12/21/2012 or any other particular date people like to use as THE date for huge changes to occur. We are gradually evolving and/or devolving as the balance continues to shift in the duality from light to dark dominant, male to female dominant. A neutral position is the power position. Dwelling upon either side of the duality increases the energy of it's opposite.

I sincerely hope that women activists are not successful in emasculating all the real men, although I think they must believe it would make them happy. If we ever live in a world where chaos reigns (even more than it does now) I, for one, will be extremely grateful to have a strong, powerful, unafraid MAN at my side to protect me and help me. Men and women are not the same and would be wise to not try to be "equal". We each have our strengths and weaknesses. I do not want to be a man but I love them a LOT! Men are awesome!

When we leave this human body either through death or out of body travel there is no gender necessary. We are powerful beings, not powerful men or women although one could assume either form if a gender form was desired. Even on the lower astral the only reason one assumes a male or female form is to engage in a particular game or agenda or they could be stuck in a trap or an illusion that they are still a being with a gender. Only here in 3D do we need male and female. So dwelling on male versus female is a rather low or slow vibrational frequency, in my opinion.

I do agree that the interview was well done by Bill. Naturally most people will think Lucia is helping, because women who come across as loving, intelligent and spiritually aware are particularly successful in convincing people to believe their message is an evolved spiritual message. But just as one must be wary when travelling on other dimensions and interacting with beings who seem to be all light and love, it would be advisable to take more than one look at those here on earth who seem to be more spiritually aware. I would also remind people that Lucia is a Buddhist monk and will have the Buddhist philosophy and agenda coloring her spiritual perspectives.

Nancy

[Bill Ryan]

Lucia reminds me of two of my long time friends who are both spiritual teachers/counselors, artists and published authors. Their subject: the Divine Feminine and Healing the Gap between male and female. Both are very similar to Lucia in their talks and I could have been listening to either one of them speaking as her interview progressed.

I have had many wonderful arguments with them over the 30 years I've known them both. My perspective on the "patriarchy" is a bit different from theirs AND from Lucia's. They all are self-styled women's rights proponents and that is not something I am overly fond of. Not that I'm against women being treated fairly but quite often women's rights activists or proponents are anti men, whether or not they CLAIM they are not judging but just stating facts.

I detected this almost subconscious and unacknowledged hostility or enmity towards men in Lucia's interview. She seems to be loving and accepting and said multiple times that she was not judging men. I don't believe that. Not that it matters because we all judge others all the time. But if you're putting yourself across as one thing and it doesn't ring true, then there could be a bit of a disparity between what you say and how you actually feel. That unacknowledged resentment can color your views and this crusade to make others aware of the evils of the patriarchy will be imbalanced.

One of the times I detected some very subtle disdain for males was when she said "I have had very few incarnations as a man". It felt to me like she was saying it as something that was a relief to her or that she was proud of. Another time was when she said that women are more equipped to lead because they are more capable of wielding power in a balanced way. I completely disagree with that statement and I think it indicates great prejudice and bias.

Another statement of which I took note was when she said something about men either being macho or the type who would buy roses everyday. I have a husband who is so far beyond macho that the term macho is a weak one to describe him, but he used to bring me roses at LEAST 4 days a week until I got sick of always having to be dealing with dead flowers. When he stopped buying flowers at my request he then switched to Beanie Babies! So now I'm stuck with boxes and boxes of beanie babies. My point being that a man who is very manly can still be silly and romantic. I'm convinced that he just happens to love funny little stuffed animals and I am a good excuse for him to buy them. LOL

Lucia does frequently state that it's all about balance. With that I agree and I find this emphasis on the evils of the male dominated society to be completely out of balance with ACTUAL balance. The fight against a thing can increase its power and the emphasis on male versus female is just another game in the duality which both sides perpetuate. Women are also controllers and manipulators. Their methods are more insidious and subtle but still extremely powerful. Women have used men for eons for their own purposes and because males actually have a stronger sexual desire for women it gives women more control to manipulate them to fulfill their wishes.

Even in long ago predominantly matriarchal tribes or societies the women in control most frequently used men to do the jobs they didn't want to do themselves. Often in a society that might be thought to be matriarchal the queen or ruling woman was mainly a figurehead and controlled by a man or men. So it cannot be said that a society or tribe is either controlled by a matriarchy or a patriarchy. Male dominated societies may be more overt and dominant but a female in charge will still be pulling strings and manipulating in any way she can.

Perhaps as a woman Lucia might want to consider apologizing for manipulating and using men which women have been doing since the beginning of life here on earth. Personally I will not be apologizing for anything. I always have compassion for anyone who is mistreated, male, female or child. To emphasize one group or gender over another only adds to the imbalance in my opinion.

For over 30 years I have been hearing that the male dominated paradigm is ending imminently. I gave up listening to that prediction a long time ago. No one knows that things are going to change radically in 2012. Change is a constant and I will be very surprised to see something huge take place on 12/21/2012 or any other particular date people like to use as THE date for huge changes to occur. We are gradually evolving and/or devolving as the balance continues to shift in the duality from light to dark dominant, male to female dominant. A neutral position is the power position. Dwelling upon either side of the duality increases the energy of it's opposite.

I sincerely hope that women activists are not successful in emasculating all the real men, although I think they must believe it would make them happy. If we ever live in a world where chaos reigns (even more than it does now) I, for one, will be extremely grateful to have a strong, powerful, unafraid MAN at my side to protect me and help me. Men and women are not the same and would be wise to not try to be "equal". We each have our strengths and weaknesses. I do not want to be a man but I love them a LOT! Men are awesome!

When we leave this human body either through death or out of body travel there is no gender necessary. We are powerful beings, not powerful men or women although one could assume either form if a gender form was desired. Even on the lower astral the only reason one assumes a male or female form is to engage in a particular game or agenda or they could be stuck in a trap or an illusion that they are still a being with a gender. Only here in 3D do we need male and female. So dwelling on male versus female is a rather low or slow vibrational frequency, in my opinion.

I do agree that the interview was well done by Bill. Naturally most people will think Lucia is helping, because women who come across as loving, intelligent and spiritually aware are particularly successful in convincing people to believe their message is an evolved spiritual message. But just as one must be wary when travelling on other dimensions and interacting with beings who seem to be all light and love, it would be advisable to take more than one look at those here on earth who seem to be more spiritually aware. I would also remind people that Lucia is a Buddhist monk and will have the Buddhist philosophy and agenda coloring her spiritual perspectives.

Nancy

A totally wonderful reply! - for which the thanks button is grossly inadequate. :)

[ovis]

Lucia, Bill thanks a lot for all the efforts made.

It is really hard to be subtle these days, and if I scan between the words I feel the sincerity of harts.
There are two points of view or sides to this. From the absolute point there is no masculine/feminine.
And from the relative point of view we encompass both. Whether I am man or a woman in this or past life, I acknowledge the lessons that power and the misuse of it gave me throughout these incarnations M/F, for it opened my eyes. And where I as person was/am accountable I will take responsibility. To see that I missed the point and change perspective.

The brilliance is that the way out is the forgiving and the acknowledging that it is already so. Really glad you interviewed a mystic this time Bill.

We definitely need more of that.

Love and Kindness.

Ovis

[K626]

I like Lucia and I like they way she embodies a cool synthesis between the spiritual and the burdens of womanhood...

Here's another woman I greatly admire..(Not for the weak hearted)..

5 parts the rest on Utubular...

uCIq3dsB3oY

[K626]

Its a two way street, I have suffered mentally, emotionally, physically at the hands of women including my late mother whom I love very deeply.
I accept that it is my karma.
I was probably getting paid back for past life actions.
There is no person in my life (past and present) male or female that I would not be happy to see and they would be pleased to see me.

I have no problem with personally extending love and accepting that women have been mistreated in the past and present by men in general.
I have no difficulty in apologizing for any offense I have give anyone male or female.

When I was a child, in Scottish Culture women were venerated, respected, highly thought of, the mistress of the house, first teacher for the child.
Men stood up when women entered the room tipped their hats opened doors and more.
Now Im afraid to open a door for a woman or be protective in case I get accused of being patronizing which would be the furthest thing from my mind,
Its natural for me, my early conditioning.

I honestly think that the media has a lot to answer for in the downgrading of women.
Their sexuality is used to sell every kind of product.
Music videos are soft porn.
Its not enough to be a good singer with a good song, it has to be the total package, which is disposable.
Respect has gone for both men and women.
Women are rarely feminine now, men rarely, truly male, both need to support each other not be in competition.
As far as spirituality goes we are a soul which is neither male or female yet both.
So within us individually we need to balance the male and female energies to bring out the best in us..

Chris

I stole a lot of my best ideas from women. :p

K

[taliesin]

Dear Bill,

Thanks for this, I have been looking forward to watching it.

xt

[bilko]

Ok so i thought i would put away my preconceived ideas and judgement about the video and issue and watch it.

I think it will help intelligent discussion if i explain that as a man i was slightly afraid of being or asked to be demasculinized if that is the right word.
Also being blamed for past abuse to women that i have never met.
Also that i might see men here putting on their pinnies so to speak.

I like the fact that Lucia started off by saying there is no judgement and it is all about balance, this was my green light for watching the rest of the video, which i am doing now.

Ok, 20 minute in and i am starting to realize the importance of keeping in mind that this is not personal, it is based on society as a structure not aimed at individuals. I am firmly of the belief that Bad people do Bad things and that one gender should not be blamed for those bad people.

I think i should point out that i am not an advocate of equality here, not in the way they teach nowadays. Men and Women are not equal neither in body, subtle body or role. A man could never replace a mother in my view same as a woman could not replace a father ( we are talking on mass here not individual cases ). It is my belief that men and women are good at different things and they meet somewhere in the middle. I'm not talking about cooking, cleaning and car mechanics, i'm talking about broader thinks.

I can't imagine falling in love with a woman that was not feminine and that had exactly the same skill set as me. That is another man in a woman's body and vice versa of course.

I hope we can progress past these points otherwise i see little hope for this thread, not a threat but an observation. We love our mothers and fathers for different reasons, we love our same sex friends for different reasons than the different sex friends that we are intimate with or paired too.

Bill made an excellent observation that men are stumbling around not really knowing how to be, he added masculine.
And that they are looking for a woman to help them with that.

Immediately i got the image that it could not be any other way, the helping part that is. We live in a universe of duality so it would make sense to me; great sense that men and women were given different attributes, different ways of expressing themselves so when they come together they are complete or in balance. Lucia herself said that women come from the lower chakras and men from the upper, together we have balance.

forming an early thought now about men coming from the mind and not the heart, not knowing how to be and so reverting to base instincts. Not an excuse for violence but a subtle explanation of sorts, kind of.

Realizing another fear now released. That unplugging the patriarchy meant a return to the matriarchy.

Good Lucia said " We have different gifts, we have different skillsets". At 043:10
Right, hmm, Bill letting some supposedly unjugemental comments slide a little.
I also found it alarming that there was no manual for men, that they are expected to use humility and oneness and ask to read the wife's book for some pointers because it was written to empower women.
Ok, remembering about it not being personal.

Also interesting that Lucia doesn't recall being incarnated as a man but mostly as different women so in her own admission has no reference as to how men should react.

Listen to your heart, good advice from Lucia.
Ok good
Yeah, very nice interview Bill you exceeded yourself there.

[Inelia]

I can see that there is a lot of reaction to the male/female configuration. Who is more powerful, who is more worthy, more able, who did what to whom.

Nancy, with regard your post: http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?17240-Unplugging-the-Patriarchy-a-new-interview-with-Lucia-Rene&p=185974&viewfull=1#post185974

I can assure you, knowing Lucia personally, that when she states there is no judgment, she means it. There was no mention that more chaos was needed, only that women were chaos and men where structure, that both are needed.

The statement of apology from Bill, did trigger some big energies of defense on many people, both men and women. - But this was Bill's, not Lucia's input.

Also, the emasculation of men, this is not what the interview even touches on. Do you know that the most famous and most heartfelt love poems were written by men? Men are the heart center, and it was ripped (and still is) from boys and men, so that they can't even go where feelings lie.

A man who is fully heartcentered, is strong. He is able to protect, nourish and fall deeply in love. No fear.

This book is about the patriarchal male conditioning in ALL OF US men and women, in fact, the book is about a woman, Lucia, looking at HER male conditioning. Her next book looks at the patriarchal female conditioning. And I can assure you that when she is interviewed about that, she will be accused of being a woman hater and of judging women ;)

[DianeKJ]

I think Lucia brings up a lot of good points about energy and power, service to others as opposed to service to self.

I also agree with NancyV previous posts that there could be a subtle vibe of men vs. women, if we chose to look at it this way- which will throw us of track if we slide down that slippery slope.

I think we can all safely agree that it doesn't really matter whether or not we happen to inhabit a male or female form at this time... we ALL have a lot of work to do and some huge issues to be brought to light in the very near future. If we didn't have this work, we probably wouldn't be here right now. Just my opinion though.

-Di

[Snowbird]

The first time that I heard Lucia speak was during an earlier interview which I watched on the Conscious Media Network. This excellent interview that I just now completed, has really planted an interest within me to investigate her work further.

Bill, your interview questions stemmed partially from the Project Camelot and Avalon work that you have done, but also straight from your own heart and soul. Your questions were excellent.

The pendulum swing on this thread is nothing short of astounding. I sense no extremes when Lucia speaks. I don't interpret what she said as any sort of societal upheaval. What she is describing, IMO, is an upheaval of the heart. We are beginning to understand how to live from the heart and not the mind.

I'm really looking forward to her book.

[Calz]

Hopefully this is "on-topic" enough to generate some interest here.

This may be a good barometer of sorts to witness the Feminine starting to manifest in the physical (or not).

Lawsuit respresenting 1.5 million women goes to Supreme Court vs one of the major corporations:


Wal-Mart sex-bias case could have wide impact

High court to decide whether women can band together against retailer

The nation's highest court will hear arguments Tuesday in a case pitting employee rights advocates against corporate America, and the outcome could have a sweeping impact on working women and the work world at large.

The Supreme Court will hear arguments in a gender discrimination case against retailing behemoth Wal-Mart over pay and promotions for some 1.5 million female employees, current and former, dating to 1998. At issue is whether this large group of women should be allowed to proceed with a suit en masse.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/42250811/ns/business-careers/

*** adding 2nd link which offers more history ***

http://www.cnn.com/2011/US/03/29/scotus.wal.mart/index.html?hpt=T2

*** adding news from 1st day in court ***

No verdict until June but it would appear from this that corporations still "rule" the world:

The Supreme Court's conservative majority didn't appear impressed Tuesday with plaintiffs' arguments that more than 1 million female Wal-Mart workers, past and present, should be able to accuse the retailer of discrimination in one class-action lawsuit, CNN senior legal analyst Jeffrey Toobin said.

Though a ruling isn't expected until late June, the justices' reactions during oral arguments might portend a defeat for six plaintiffs who want to band with employees from across the country and make their accusations in a single, massive trial, Toobin said.

"I thought it was a very good day in court for Wal-Mart, and I would not be at all surprised if the whole case were thrown out after listening to the justices today,” Toobin said on "CNN Newsroom."

The Supreme Court is deciding whether the original lawsuit, in which six female Wal-Mart workers allege systemic discrimination in which the retailer paid women less than men and gave women fewer promotions, can be given class-action status.

A decision to allow such a large suit, with nearly 1.6 million potential plaintiffs, would represent an enormous litigation risk for Wal-Mart Stores Inc. Should Wal-Mart lose such a suit, it could face tens of billions of dollars in damages.

But the Supreme Court's conservative justices appeared skeptical of arguments for allowing a class action, Toobin said.

Both sides concede that Wal-Mart has official policies barring discrimination against women and listing diversity as an important value, Toobin said.

"What the plaintiffs' lawyers were saying (Tuesday) was that that policy was so vague that it gave local, individual store managers the opportunity to discriminate against women," Toobin said. "The more conservative justices on the court were saying, 'Well, if that’s the case, how can you try them all together? Because each store had a different set of circumstances. How can you do a class action when the policy is a fair one, a good one, and it’s only the individuals who were possibly discriminated against?'"

A decision to allow a class-action suit might lead Wal-Mart to try to settle the case to get the "enormous risk off its books," Toobin said.

"But after today, I think Wal-Mart will be a lot less willing to settle, because it looks like much or all of the case may be thrown out by what is an increasingly conservative Supreme Court," Toobin said.

http://news.blogs.cnn.com/2011/03/29/toobin-very-good-day-in-court-for-wal-mart/?hpt=C2

[ThePythonicCow]

Lucia reminds me of two of my long time friends who are both spiritual teachers/counselors, artists and published authors. Their subject: the Divine Feminine and Healing the Gap between male and female. Both are very similar to Lucia in their talks and I could have been listening to either one of them speaking as her interview progressed.

...
Your entire reply was awesome. Thank-you, NancyV

[ViralSpiral]

As with any information, it will always be subject to judgement and perception.
I really enjoyed the interview, and since books have been the "university of and for the soul", I look forward to yet another window of opportunity to learn.

Nancy, I loved your response and now have more insight. Thank you for sharing.

[panopticon]

Another time was when she said that women are more equipped to lead because they are more capable of wielding power in a balanced way. I completely disagree with that statement and I think it indicates great prejudice and bias....
The fight against a thing can increase its power and the emphasis on male versus female is just another game in the duality which both sides perpetuate. Women are also controllers and manipulators. Their methods are more insidious and subtle but still extremely powerful. Women have used men for eons for their own purposes and because males actually have a stronger sexual desire for women it gives women more control to manipulate them to fulfill their wishes.

Thank you NancyV,
Having been manipulated by certain women.
Having seen my step son manipulated to the point of suicide. He is a strapping young lad whose missus used the line 'go on hit me' as a means of antagonising a response. To his credit he never did, even though she beat him regularly and would take their children away for weeks at a time only calling when she had run out of money.

I appreciate your remarks.

It is difficult for a male to make a statement on feminist positions without sounding disingenuous or being taken to task over them. I have been a long time supporter of the feminist movements attempts at gaining equality of pay, conditions and employment.
When Lucia said that women were better equipped to lead I laughed.
Not at the statement but rather at the nature of the statement!
Surely it is not a question of which gender?
That thinking simply reinforces the artificial dichotomies doesn't it?

Lastly I laughed long and hard at: "it's not a book, it's a mystical experience."
There's a sales pitch if ever I heard one!

Love, peace, brown rice, soya sauce, the wickered witch is a cabbage patch kid.

Kind Regards, :yo:
Panopticon

[aroundthetable]

When it comes to personal behaviour and spiritual standards, gender plays no part. There a good men and women and there are quite frankly, morons in both genders. Being a women is no fast track ticket to spirituality, right behaviour, kindness etc is.

And while i'm at it!!!!

She misqouted the vedas a couple of times ( as so many 'new age' researchers do). Firstly she said the cycle of the Kali yuga is coming to an end, it is not, there are another 425,000 years left. Secondly, she said Jnana ( knowledge) is higher than Bhakti (love). But the conclusion of the vedas is that at the end of the path of knowledge lies love, therefore Bhakti (path of love) is higher than Jnana (path of knowledge).

For my own feelings regarding the vid/interview, there was nothing new, more confusion from the confused. Another new age diy pitch. Sorry for any offence, that is just my opinion.

[Kent Fallman]

although its for the good.. i fell asleep during watching this.. booring..

[andrewgreen]

I think reconciliation is needed and as man we are in a position to apologise on behalf of other men to facilitate this without attatching personal guilt. Its really important in acknowledging the state of play so we can move forward and I don't think fear of engaging the guilt complex should be an obstacle to growth but something we should be aware of when making a decision. The healing process isn't easy.

[ann444]

Changing the dialog.....I question the two examples given of loving females. I suspect that Princess Di posed with AIDS patients and became involved with charities because it was good press and was all about image, an attempt to make her husband look bad. As for Mother Theresa, she did good works, was committed to the unholy Catholic church, and spent the majority of the millions donated to her traveling to visit dignitaries rather than improving her clinics.

[Inelia]

A grassroot example of what happens when empowering women and what happened when empowering men (while both are still plugged into the patriarchal paradigm):


http://www.cnn.com/2011/TECH/innovation/01/24/barefoot.college.india/index.html

[shadowstalker]

So eloquently spoken,
her soft voice speaks volumes,
soft whispers of spirit, flows thru this video,
like gentle breezes for the soul.
Thank you Bill and Lucia for a new deeper experience in learning.

[Calz]

I have implied as much before in this thread and will repeat.

We *all* have had past lives with both genders (if Lucia has had mostly feminine it is not the norm but it is fine and what is needed for her soul).

We *all* have had past lives in positions of power and vulnerability.

We *all* are here to experience humanity in *all* it's aspects.

IMHO (as always ... what else can one offer?)

[FrankoL]

I like Lucia. She is living demonstration of new energy. OK, almost.

However a clear distinction should be made. One thing is "patriarchal" paradigm of power, another physical polarity (man/woman). Both man/woman helped unfolding this type of situation. NancyV nailed it perfectly. Saying the man should apologise is still old way of thinking. Also appreciation of the the gesture is much the same. Isn't it?

For me is difficult to grasp why in a world someone would expect anyone to apologise? This is a part of your learning process, a gift. When you understand it, you don't need to look forward. Lucia is old school. Book is for woman only.

[Bill Ryan]

A grassroot example of what happens when empowering women and what happened when empowering men (while both are still plugged into the patriarchal paradigm):


http://www.cnn.com/2011/TECH/innovation/01/24/barefoot.college.india/index.html

Must see - an inspiring video. Here's a great quote from the news report: :)



We thought that we would rather train women than men - because we found that men were quite untrainable. They are restless, they are compulsively mobile, they are ambitious, and they all want a certificate. The moment you give them a certificate, they go to the city looking for a job. So why not invest in women: older women, mature women, gutsy women, who have roots in the village - and train them.
This is a really valuable debate. I've been thinking about it a lot since the interview. The roles of men and women are complex, and not easy to summarize in pithy sentences. There's also a really broad spectrum of individual differences.

A few personal observations, as they come to me.

* I loved this quote from Nancy (made me laugh, and I think there's truth there):



I sincerely hope that women activists are not successful in emasculating all the real men, although I think they must believe it would make them happy. If we ever live in a world where chaos reigns (even more than it does now) I, for one, will be extremely grateful to have a strong, powerful, unafraid MAN at my side to protect me and help me. Men and women are not the same and would be wise to not try to be "equal". We each have our strengths and weaknesses. I do not want to be a man but I love them a LOT! Men are awesome!
* My life has caused me to think a lot about courage. (First, my experiences in adventure sports. Later, about the risks of getting killed for principle. And all the time - while pursuing personal development - the courage it takes to look in the mirror and tell the truth to oneself. There, I have been on courses, and - on the other side - also been a life skills coach.)

It may be that the kind of courage men and women display is different. (Paraphrased: men and women deploy their courage in different ways and in different realms.)

* Someone once accused Kerry and me of being racist because we had not (at that time) interviewed any non-white people. That shocked me. I don't 'see' skin color... and I don't 'see' gender. I see beings who are temporarily incarnated as people, everywhere I go.

* I've thought a lot about the theme perfectly expressed by Inelia here:




A man who is fully heartcentered, is strong. He is able to protect, nourish and fall deeply in love. No fear.
That was a new idea for me when I met Lucia. I've reflected on it a lot, and I think it's true. Nancy herself says it perfectly:




I have a husband who is so far beyond macho that the term macho is a weak one to describe him, but he used to bring me roses at LEAST 4 days a week until I got sick of always having to be dealing with dead flowers. When he stopped buying flowers at my request he then switched to Beanie Babies! So now I'm stuck with boxes and boxes of beanie babies. My point being that a man who is very manly can still be silly and romantic.
Amen to that. Here's an anecdote that may make Nancy laugh (and her husband, too).

I was in the Himalayas in 1981 on an expedition, and had flown to Nepal with my girlfriend Cathy (name changed). We spent several days in Kathmandu before setting off. We spent at least half of that time in a cafe called Jamali's that made the most gorgeous cakes. When I left for the mountains, Cathy flew to Calcutta where she was going to work for a while in a rural town in India.

Six weeks later, I was back in Kathmandu and was really looking forward to seeing Cathy again. I went to Jamali's and bought a giant chocolate cake and a whole tray of chocolate brownies. I even bought the tray. They were an expressive gift that I knew Cathy would deeply appreciate and would cause her to love me forever.

Over the next four days I navigated several hundred miles with two giant bags of mountaineering equipment, the chocolate cake, and the tray of brownies. I traveled by foot, taxi, plane, train, and finally bicycle rickshaw. In the end I arrived, hot, tired, triumphant, and delighted in my successful romantic heroism.

Cathy was not in the slightest bit impressed. She wasn't particularly pleased to see me (she was coping with problems of her own), and was not interested in the cake or the brownies. I was shocked and hurt - and over the next week ate them all myself.

But... would I do that again? Probably!!

Nancy's husband may understand. :)

[edina]

When I was a kid, I remember seeing these issues all around me, and I was continually confounded by them.

I imagine it is the same with many young people today, perhaps even more so than me, since these young ones are more evolved in the universe than I am, having more recently arrived from a more evolved Universal Being.

I began, somewhere around 10 years old, resolving the paradoxes of our seeming differences by responding to every call to divide ourself into categories by responding with this simple statement:

Just like me, every one is a human being first.

Of course, since I've read George Green's material, having been introduced to it through Project Camelot I've changed the phrasing a bit

Just like we, we are all humanity becoming....

This interview, and the journey we share with it, plays into our hearts the resolution of our shared paradox, as we become increasingly unique and unified.

I recognise forgiveness as a creative action, that affords us an opportunity to uncreate our miscreations. An opportunity has presented itself here, that I simply cannot ignore....

With this in mind then, on behalf of all humanity, and anyone who would like to benefit from this:

I apologize to everyone I hurt related to this, even if it were done by my mere perception of this, and extend to them love, happiness and peace.

I forgive everyone who hurt me related to this, and any misperceptions I may have held, and wish them love, happiness and peace.

I forgive everyone I blamed for this, including God, and myself, and wish us love, happiness and peace.

Thank you, Beloved, for our forgiveness.


To be honest and genuine, the above is a part of a protocol I use to deprogram myself. It was created by Tapas Flemming (http://www.tatlife.com/node/34) of TATLife. (http://store.tatlife.com/booklet/) I discovered it when I was following a rabbit trail in my search for a simple, non-drug way to help people overcome PTSD quickly during the events that are emerging in our lives, hmmm,... just about now. I've been using is for about four years now.

Forgiveness works, it is an extraordinarily creative action, similar to gratitude.

[NancyV]

I can see that there is a lot of reaction to the male/female configuration. Who is more powerful, who is more worthy, more able, who did what to whom.

Nancy, with regard your post: http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?17240-Unplugging-the-Patriarchy-a-new-interview-with-Lucia-Rene&p=185974&viewfull=1#post185974

I can assure you, knowing Lucia personally, that when she states there is no judgment, she means it. There was no mention that more chaos was needed, only that women were chaos and men where structure, that both are needed.

The statement of apology from Bill, did trigger some big energies of defense on many people, both men and women. - But this was Bill's, not Lucia's input.

Also, the emasculation of men, this is not what the interview even touches on. Do you know that the most famous and most heartfelt love poems were written by men? Men are the heart center, and it was ripped (and still is) from boys and men, so that they can't even go where feelings lie.

A man who is fully heartcentered, is strong. He is able to protect, nourish and fall deeply in love. No fear.

This book is about the patriarchal male conditioning in ALL OF US men and women, in fact, the book is about a woman, Lucia, looking at HER male conditioning. Her next book looks at the patriarchal female conditioning. And I can assure you that when she is interviewed about that, she will be accused of being a woman hater and of judging women ;)
Hi Inelia,

When I stated the following:

If we ever live in a world where chaos reigns (even more than it does now) I, for one, will be extremely grateful to have a strong, powerful, unafraid MAN at my side to protect me and help me.
This had nothing to do with Lucia's statement about women being chaos and men being structure. she probably mostly means that on an energetic level. This predominant energy of each gender manifests in many ways in our lives also. What I meant was if our world descends into chaos, as in a post apocalyptic scenario, I would want a strong man or men to protect me. I'm very good with a gun and have been in some pretty dangerous situations in my life, but I know I am not and can not be as strong or powerful physically as a man. Men are much better at protection and fighting. In a war situation they make much better leaders, they command more respect and obedience. I also prefer to have male leaders of tribes and countries so I am basically a supporter of a more patriarchal setup.

I am not in favor at all of women being part of combat troops in the military. Not only are they NOT equal to men in their abilities, they are a dangerous diversion. You can be sure military women often use this to their advantage with the soldiers they are able to manipulate. It is because of women's rights advocates gaining the "right" for women to participate in many combat units that our military has been weakened. So the "patriarchal conditioning" of women in the military was sought by them for themselves and is being done to themselves. I am pointing this out only to illustrate some of the dangers of women wanting "equality". I don't want equality. I want to be me; a powerful woman, not a pretend man. I would assume since Lucia is so intelligent and experienced that she understands and celebrates these differences.

I also used to believe that my two women friends who are lifelong spiritual teachers with as much experience as Lucia were not man haters or not uncomfortable with masculinity. However I observed that one of them always had failed relationships with more macho type men. Now at the age of 64 her mate is a 30 year old with a mother complex who is quite pliable. The other good friend of mine who is about 65 has been single for many years. Her last lover happened to be an ex husband of mine! LOL... I know for a fact that he was not particularly macho.

Many of my women friends who had sons attempted to develop their more sensitive qualities, their "inner female". It rarely worked and led to much frustration on their part. Telling a little boy he can't play with nasty guns only leads to them using sticks and stones as weapons. It's so absolutely normal for a young male to begin developing aggressive tendencies at a very early age. I initially started my son at 6 years old in a Waldorf school. They were the epitome of a school dedicated to molding males into sensitive, feeling human beings while attempting to stifle their more aggressive tendencies. A few of the rules were; no playing with pretend weapons, no watching violence on TV in fact no TV was recommended, no wearing RED because it incites the passions, no harsh words, etc.

It was a bit funny for us as my son wore a LOT of red. Our last name was Allred so red was his favorite color and also has always been my favorite color (wonder if that's why I married someone named Allred? LOL) It took only a few months for me to call bull on the whole agenda. Some boys just will not be molded into passive, quiet, non confrontational, obedient and emasculated males who will jump at your command. We women have definitely tried our best to emasculate our men for a long time. I'm glad it's not working and some day women may be very grateful that there are still some real men around.

Does Lucia have a mate/lover in her life? Does she have a son? Raising a son really helps a woman to understand the huge differences between male and female. Isn't a Buddhist monk supposed to lead a life of celibacy? I would question the empathy and true compassion a celibate monk would have for the "battle of the sexes". I was celibate for several years on a Sikh path of meditation I was following, so I do know all the supposed reasons for remaining celibate and I know the sense of almost righteousness and superiority that can sneak it's way into you when you are adhering to such practices. I consider the much touted spiritual benefits of celibacy to be contrived, unnatural and completely unnecessary to spiritual evolution and gaining spiritual powers and abilities. It may also be used as a control device by certain religions and spiritual practices.

But as I said, this whole jockeying for position and power of the sexes is just a low level, low vibrational 3D game. Yes, it's a fun one, but it is just a game. It's an absolutely inescapable game as long as we are in duality so we might as well relax and enjoy it. Those who think it's going to change here in 3D where we have genders are most likely indulging in wishful thinking. If one wants the genders to be equal and men to not be aggressive and controlling and women to not be manipulative, then my advice would be to either ascend, leave your body, or die and become genderless. But there is still a much lessened duality and lots of games going on on the lower dimensions, so that would not be entirely satisfactory to one who desires oneness. Ultimate oneness is only found upon merging with the Source. But then you will come back into the creation and play again.

Inelia, I appreciate that you feel defensive of your friend and her sincerity, but if we women who are actively engaged in spiritual evolution and practices will not look very closely at ourselves and thoroughly examine our prejudices, weaknesses, preferences, etc. then we are only fooling ourselves. My two women friends who are spiritual teachers will not acknowledge that they have problems with real men, although it seems obvious to me. But I am right only for me. I would not wish to change the world or men or women to conform to any preferences or spiritual knowledge I have to make them "better". Lucia's mission is hers and I respect that. My opinions are mine. They are always subject to change and I do not expect nor do I seek agreement from anyone. Agreement is always fun, but not at all necessary.

By the way, I agree that men are heart centered and what I have found is that all men want love. Even if they think sex is more important, it's all consuming love they truly desire. The poetry men write and men singers always appeal more to me than women writers and singers. Maybe their heart centeredness comes through more to me than from women. My husband has written poetry all his life in addition to being a warrior. My son is also a poet and ex military. I definitely love a well rounded man who is a good combination of strength, masculinity and deep feelings on many levels. As you can probably tell I have an extreme fondness and weakness for men. Eradicating or suppressing their aggressive tendencies would dilute their heart connection, in my opinion. Giving them immense unconditional love and acceptance will do more to control their inner savage beast than anything else. That is how women can control and shape this 3D world.

Nancy :)

[Hervé]

Cathy was not in the slightest bit impressed. She wasn't particularly pleased to see me (she was coping with problems of her own)....

Yep, living in different universes which are so far from being parallel that they must be orthogonal without ever getting another chance to intersect if they ever did.... The Mars-Venus thing barely co-habiting on Earth.

The whole mis-communication makes me wonder if Credo Mutwa knows anything about what happened inside those red and blue caves where the split occurred? What was the basic enforced programming there, besides the genetic one?

In any case, thank you for the interview and the link to the Grandmothers!

[Agape]

Six weeks later, I was back in Kathmandu and was really looking forward to seeing Cathy again. I went to Jamali's and bought a giant chocolate cake and a whole tray of chocolate brownies. I even bought the tray. They were an expressive gift that I knew Cathy would deeply appreciate and would cause her to love me forever.

Over the next four days I navigated several hundred miles with two giant bags of mountaineering equipment, the chocolate cake, and the tray of brownies. I traveled by foot, taxi, plane, train, and finally bicycle rickshaw. In the end I arrived, hot, tired, triumphant, and delighted in my successful romantic heroism.




Hi Bill :becky:

despite all my circumstances , that statement of yours made me smile...and brought back some memories of cinnamon rolls I had in Pokhara , ok that was in 1994.

A beautiful view of Machapuchara mountain in mists every morning..for a month..it was very good and loving time in my life and felt like little heaven on earth.


What I think is that we all are fragile beings who need their share of love and care and the memory of times when we all were kind and loving to each other without doubt is written deep in our bodies and minds, no matter how we call them.

We can get hurt for years and refuse the need of love on personal level if we've experienced it being deceptive .

And I'm strong believer in both giving ..and receiving..natures respectively, are present in each of us and need to be balanced and fulfilled.


While ..in the human form ..it seems to be almost impossible task ..


:panda:

[shiva777]

did you guys know that challenging situations and achieving a goal increases and utilises mens testosterone levels,thereby reducing their cortisol/stress levels,whereas for woman in those situations it DOES NOT reduce their stress levels...Womens stress levels are twice as high as mens in the workforce since they don't get the same stress relief through challenges...so men are HORMONALLY wired to be the leaders in challenging situations...it's important to HONOR the differences between males and females and be aware of the roles that each are more suited to doing...women react 8 times as much emotionally then men do when they are stressed.

When men are feminised(which the new-agey movement is intent on doing in many instances)they don't rebuild their testosterone .........

[greybeard]

Bill said


Over the next four days I navigated several hundred miles with two giant bags of mountaineering equipment, the chocolate cake, and the tray of brownies. I traveled by foot, taxi, plane, train, and finally bicycle rickshaw. In the end I arrived, hot, tired, triumphant, and delighted in my successful romantic heroism.

Cathy was not in the slightest bit impressed. She wasn't particularly pleased to see me (she was coping with problems of her own), and was not interested in the cake or the brownies. I was shocked and hurt - and over the next week ate them all myself.

But... would I do that again? Probably!!


Story of my early life Bill laughing.

You only get one brownie point for all that.

The book "Men are from Mars women are from Venus" is an eye opener.

Playing in a band for years also being a Hypnotherapist gave me the opportunity to witness interaction between male and females.

"Here comes trouble"
You could see it a mile away where a lovely looking soft sensitive female was attracted to a macho man of the bullying hard man variety,
(He will look after me--- oh yeah!!!!)
(Daughter of a friend has finally left her husband after 5 children one after another, he was only secure when she was pregnant, she is in a safe house and he has been charged with violent acts towards her, some man)

Some females have no respect for a loving romantic man, others do.
Takes all types.
Im happy to let my feminine romantic side out and sometimes it takes great strength to do so.
It can be taken mistakenly as a weakness, its quite the opposite.
I am comfortable with me.

Chris

[SKAWF]

i got halfway through the vid before i had to turn it off.
and i was going to post, but i didnt want to come across as attacking the woman, or the video.
i found her position to be fundamentally contradictive.

i will have another look at it.

[Newlyn]

Why would you apologise for something that other people did Bill?
That is part of the guilt complex they put into us, reject it.
We will accumulate enough guilt for the things we do ourselves without taking onboard more.

I know it might sound strange...

I very much loved reading that Bill apologized (I would rather say: ask for forgiveness) for things others did. (The words are used a bit differently in German though...)

Imagine you have experienced something terrible (most of us have in one way or the other) and I'd listen to your experience very closely with all my love and compassion, and then I would honestly bend my head and hold your hands saying:

"I apologize with all my heart for what was done to you." -

In this way I would give your pain and grief a space within my own compassion, within my love - and this can allow you to let go of it.

Try it: I honestly, honestly ask you for forgiveness for what was done to you.

This is important. I see it like this: Everyone is the perpetrator and the victim. Who can throw the first stone? Therefore, why should I not forgive anyone? So I think it is also nice do apologize, not because it is needed, but because it gives a higher feeling of connection between us ALL. In everything we do.

Blessings.

[shiva777]

you can only apologise on behalf of yourself...how can you apologise for someone elses behaviour in any meaningful way?..and what would make you want to,some kind of guilt?..I would never say I apologise on behalf of all men as they have not given me that right..did you hear Lucia apologise on behalf of all women for the way they have treated men after Bill apologised?..just some thoughts...

[wegge]

reading the last few posts brought up this song in my mind :)


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0MiQzAo6Cp8&feature=related

[Hervé]

I found what Carmody submitted a while back to be quite relevant to this topic:


The male of the species, design wise, is also designed to be deeply tied to the relationship. Moreso than women. Women are designed to be tied to their children.

These are generalizations, it's different for everyone in each relationship or situation. But, if you look, you can see the truth in it.

When a man ends a relationship, a meaningful and powerful relationship, hormonally speaking, psychologically speaking they die, in their minds ---a real, actual, and full death.

When women end a relationship, it is designed to not be as painful, for they need to take care of the children. When the children die, that feeling that women get, that is what men get when the relationship dies.

Small wonder the men are sometimes very freaky about committing and all associated with it.





Carmody, this is very powerful, I didn't know this.When a man ends a relationship, a meaningful and powerful relationship, hormonally speaking, psychologically speaking they die, in their minds ---a real, actual, and full death.
.................
... Imagine what the world would be like, if men honored women, and women honored men............



The reason I use the word 'posess, is that if a man allows the given situation to escalate to the point that he has very shakily given the woman his heart....then she can throw it away. And in that moment, that end, he has to deal with the consequences of that, within himself. The giving of the heart is a moment of finality for the male.

What it comes down to is hormonally, and in the physiology of the brain and of the mind, the male goes through the horror of that as a real death that needs to be dealt with. If you look at the record of what happens to men when relationships, marriage, whatever..how that ends, well, there's those strange and tragic stories you hear about every day. The men die inside so horribly, that they act out in those horrific ways. The pain is enormous and never ending -It just never stops. The same pain that a woman has to endure when she sits there and looks at an empty child's bed in her house. The kind of pain that stays there, so intensely that it is brutal and never ending.

Some can be blamed on the situation that the male of the species is the 'warrior' and food gathering type, but that by no means accounts for the tragedies you hear about, and that some of you know about personally. Friends, local situations that have happened in your neighborhood, etc.

If every relationship ended so the woman acted as exactly as if her children were dead due to the situation, I'd wager you'd see considerably more tragic ends and women in jail instead of men.

it's the simple genetics and design of the situation. This whole thing can also be seen with the situation of the men... who are generally the ones freaking out at the altar, at the wedding.

I think that part of this understanding required may be the women realizing this situation, as part of their own personal package of knowledge in relations. You might say that such an acknowledgment of that can be part of an act of understanding the responsibility that is in their hands. In the end, it would be rude to call it an unrealized power over men, but that is essentially what it is.

No judgment..just a simple :Know this thing, know this point.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
What is the next logical thought?

Men trying to control the fear of loss, etc....by extending their control into...women.


Recall my comment on the genetics of the relations. Woman loves child. Man loves woman. Child dies, woman's mind is wrapped so tightly around children, that she breaks. A source of great fear. For women.

Now, when the man loves, he loves women like a woman loves the child. You take away women, and the man dies inside-he breaks. Recall the creation order.

man, woman, child.

See the progression in the design and the impetus added on the genetic level.

Now, woman controls child. this is natural, so it goes unnoticed. for the larger part.

Man tries to control women, like the woman controls the child.

Now, engage the fear drive in the man.

What happens?

Remove the fear from the man and he can love the world freely, without having to control it.

I lost the base fear of the man as it sits within me (when I 'went clear' while in the sleepless state)....and unconditional love returned to me.

How to remove that fear from man?

Show him that he is eternal and is not really a man at all.



Circumcision is to be done at the age of 8 days. No anesthetic.

From the conspiracy forum:

The royals are interesting, that is for sure.
Google this for yourself, that prince Charles was circumcised by a mohel and so was William and Harry.



Now, what would Circumcision do to the psyche of a Male of the species, in the context of creating psychological knots that are unreachable, so they can never be passed through or fixed?

Like a permanent barrier in the mind?

What the hell is the real reason behind circumcision?

Is it like taking a hot poker and burning off the access portal to universal truth... in context of the formation the male version of the human mind?

To, as permanently as possible, to place the fear of the ego in solid and unbreakable control..exactly over the doorway to universal truth?

To tie fear and sexuality, the basest of ego drives ....so powerfully in control and knotted together so that man will always be driven to control, and NEVER seek truths?

To destroy a child at as deep and as unconscious a layer as possible so that it will NEVER be found?

From wiki:

* In the Book of Genesis as a mark of the Covenant between God and the descendants of Abraham: "Throughout all generations, every male shall be circumcised when he is eight days old...This shall be my covenant in your flesh, an eternal covenant. The uncircumcised male whose foreskin has not been circumcised, shall have his soul cut off from his people; he has broken my Covenant"[1] and

* In Leviticus: "God spoke to Moses, telling him to speak to the Israelites: When a woman conceives and gives birth to a boy ... on the eighth day, the flesh of his foreskin shall be circumcised."[2]


And this is way after the Red/Blue lights caves... I really wonder what happened inside those?

fJ1qV4JD65c&feature=related

Credo Mutwa Part I-04

[DawgBone]

Human beings reach their peak at about age 10 or 11. Totally delightful beings. Then, in a few years the hormones start kicking in, and it's all down hill from there.

Testosterone may have been useful when we had to battle saber-toothed tigers. I can't see that it is of much use these days.

[Hervé]

you can only apologise on behalf of yourself...how can you apologise for someone elses behaviour in any meaningful way?..and what would make you want to,some kind of guilt?..I would never say I apologise on behalf of all men as they have not given me that right..did you hear Lucia apologise on behalf of all women for the way they have treated men after Bill apologised?..just some thoughts...

Ever heard of taking responsibility? We are one? Holographic universe? Ho'oponopono?

http://educate-yourself.org/zsl/hooponopono25jul06.shtml (http://educate-yourself.org/zsl/hooponopono25jul06.shtml)

Then, may be, this world can be transformed.

[DianeKJ]

did you guys know that challenging situations and achieving a goal increases and utilises mens testosterone levels,thereby reducing their cortisol/stress levels,whereas for woman in those situations it DOES NOT reduce their stress levels...Womens stress levels are twice as high as mens in the workforce since they don't get the same stress relief through challenges...so men are HORMONALLY wired to be the leaders in challenging situations...it's important to HONOR the differences between males and females and be aware of the roles that each are more suited to doing...women react 8 times as much emotionally then men do when they are stressed.

When men are feminised(which the new-agey movement is intent on doing in many instances)they don't rebuild their testosterone .........

Who is asking for this? I think that is an over-interpretation of the interview. I think she is talking about a shift of energy, of not operatiing from the 3rd chakra and not just men either. From what I took from the interview is that we all needed to move into this chakra area for learning at a certain time in our history. The shift was needed and expected, but now we need to move into the heart chakra area and work more from that area. To me this resonates, I respect that this may not for others.

I'm also unsure of why some are so focused on Bill's apology. Lucia didn't ask for that as I recall, seemed something Bill felt he needed to do and I honor his voice for speaking that. But it certainly wasn't expected or required.

What has happened with the terms "new agey" "earth motherly" etc? When did these become such horrid things to be? In terms of main stream society I imagine most people would view you Shiva as New Agey. But to me it's not an insult. I'd rather be new-agey than main-stream any day of the week. :)

So using your argument Shiva, it feels like you are saying that men are wired to be leaders, and that by taking that away power/leadership roles feminizes them? Seems like a huge, huge over generalization to me, as well as somewhat insulting for both men and women.

I know many instances where the over generalizations just do not apply any more. I see it in my own children, it's more about honoring your soul than your gender. There are more and more boys who do not fit the old patterns, I see it all around us, it is shifting. I honor them and I don't see them as less masculine in any way. One of my sons became a devout vegetarian at 6 years old, believes that all insects are his friends and would not hurt anything living. It's who he came on this earth as, his true soul. I am in total awe of him on a daily basis.

Shiva, I realize that it is difficult to convey some thoughts on an internets board, so if I come across as harsh towards you, I apologize right here and now. This is a very charged subject for me, and I'm certain I am operating from a more emotional viewpoint, it's just they way I'm wired. :)

Much love you~
Namaste~
Di

[Maria Stade]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tIBStp2-uT0

:luv:

[DianeKJ]

post removed as it wasn't helpful to the discussion...

[majapahit]

sorry to say
- I find the interview full of generalities
- 'Men' do this 'Women' do that (or 'are')

'men' are 'this' and 'that', un-emotional, conditioned etc etc etc

sorry
I am not like that
.. I met a few who are neither
.. she really talks about the the generality of a 'macho' dickhead, yes, I met many of those
.. I also met rather vile, nasty women, of the bloodsucker type, manipulative etc.

I agree that a 'change' is coming forward concerning 'authoritarianism'
but this change has been going on since year 0
when men were real beast .. some

she talks about the 'femenine era of 6000 (or something) year ago'
.. I recognize this notion from feminist anthropology, and might be an exception rather than the rule

what she doesnt distinguish is cultured, well behaved people
.. who like and protect their daugthers
.. who like, respect and protect their wives, loved ones
.. and who have been around since year 0, when some - other - men were real animals
.. but they were'nt

in Holland there has been a lot of experience with 'empowering' girls, by lessons from 'female emancipators'

and boy, can that go wrong
(of course it can go right .. with all generalities out of the way)

[SKAWF]

i watched it again, all the way through,

ive stated here before that i wouldnt spew negativity into a post i disagreed with,
and ive had to check my own reasoning to see if i'm polarised or not. and i'm not.

where my erm.... disagreement is, or the issue i have, is this...

balance, is exactly that. neither one thing or the other.
androgyny is balanced, and so is truth.

but LR is blatently polarised to the side of the feminine.
look at the title of the book 'Unplugging the Patriarchy'
not 'unplugging the power structure'
does she think that males have been empowered?
i dont see TPTB as a patriarchy.
they screw over all sides. man woman & beast.

it was said that for a few thousand years there was a matri-linear structure,
do you really believe that woman deftly handed control to the males,
who then set about treating women in the worst ways possible?

more likely power was taken away from women with force and not without reason, which may explain the subsequent castigation.

we lay ourselves at your feet, we are at your mercy and you toy with us like a cat and a mouse.

i noticed that there was no apology to bill for the damage that the matri-linear system, did to males before the patriarchy happened.
not a mention of that at all.

it was frustrating to watch, because when LR talks about energy and cyles etc, i completely agree with her
but at the root of it all is this imbalance again.
the truth is the truth. its applicable to both sexes, and as soon as you direct info at one gender,
you create division, and also you create villains. the patriarchs.
if its balanced, why is it directed at one sex?
if women need to unplug from the patriarchy, what is it men have to unplug from?.
i wonder what LR's reaction would be if there was a man living in a womans world,
who had written a book called 'unplugging from matri-liniarity'
feminism and sexual equality allowed women the freedom to do to men,
what men had been doing to women for years, does that make it right?
men have been well messed up by the system, because WE are the main body of resistance to it.
this is why i say its a power structure, that grabs everyone, turns them inside out, and then puts them in the worst position possible..
this thing doesnt care what sex you are. IT, is a breed of human that cares only for itself.
i think LR's obvious bias towards women, is whats contradicting the statements of balance.

i want the power structure removed. (the patriarchy) but i dont want the opposite put in its place.
two wrongs dont make a right.

true balance and androgyny doesnt care what sex you are.
and if you have to localise something to one sex, its not balanced.

i hope i havnt stepped out of line with this post.

steve

[NancyV]

Honestly Nancy, much of your opinions appear far more sexist and divisive than anything I witnessed on the interview. I don't even know where to start with it. I realize now that I must step away from this thread, I'm far too frustrated by it all. Suffice to say that you are certainly entitled to your viewpoint and I will simply state that I don't agree with much of the above statement.
You're correct, Diane. I am admittedly somewhat of a sexist here on the physical plane and with no gender preference in astral, causal and other dimensions. Here I have a bias towards men and male energy. Part of what I was pointing out about Lucia is that I believe she is also a sexist with a bias towards female energy and women. There is nothing wrong with her promoting the divine feminine and the unplugging of the patriarchy, but to say she is unbiased and non judgmental does not ring true to me... and I may be incorrect, which is also fine because I don't really care. She is what she is and I am what I am.

I will not deny that I make judgments all the time. What's the point of pretending to be non judgmental and non sexist when we are living in duality and our perspectives are colored by our gender, our upbringing, our society, our life experiences and our environment. I have absolutely no problem owning up to my preferences and opinions and no problem with anyone who has a different opinion... AND I love a good argument! Divisiveness is in the eye of the beholder. To me a good debate is stimulating and increases my knowledge of others and myself.

Nancy :)

[NancyV]

you can only apologise on behalf of yourself...how can you apologise for someone elses behaviour in any meaningful way?..and what would make you want to,some kind of guilt?..I would never say I apologise on behalf of all men as they have not given me that right..did you hear Lucia apologise on behalf of all women for the way they have treated men after Bill apologised?..just some thoughts...
Probably the most important thing is that it made Bill feel good to say what he said, in fact that's the only important thing. If a person knows that we are all ONE then they are still only speaking for themselves even if they say it's for everyone or every man. Although I feel no need to apologize for anything I very much understand that it felt meaningful and good to Bill and to others who found it meaningful. I like that! We don't have to agree that an apology was necessary or desirable but I'm sure we can agree that there are a lot of different opinions and I say: vive la différence!

Nancy :)

[DianeKJ]

Honestly Nancy, much of your opinions appear far more sexist and divisive than anything I witnessed on the interview. I don't even know where to start with it. I realize now that I must step away from this thread, I'm far too frustrated by it all. Suffice to say that you are certainly entitled to your viewpoint and I will simply state that I don't agree with much of the above statement.
You're correct, Diane. I am admittedly somewhat of a sexist here on the physical plane and with no gender preference in astral, causal and other dimensions. Here I have a bias towards men and male energy. Part of what I was pointing out about Lucia is that I believe she is also a sexist with a bias towards female energy and women. There is nothing wrong with her promoting the divine feminine and the unplugging of the patriarchy, but to say she is unbiased and non judgmental does not ring true to me... and I may be incorrect, which is also fine because I don't really care. She is what she is and I am what I am.

I will not deny that I make judgments all the time. What's the point of pretending to be non judgmental and non sexist when we are living in duality and our perspectives are colored by our gender, our upbringing, our society, our life experiences and our environment. I have absolutely no problem owning up to my preferences and opinions and no problem with anyone who has a different opinion... AND I love a good argument! Divisiveness is in the eye of the beholder. To me a good debate is stimulating and increases my knowledge of others and myself.

Nancy :)

:) Well that's fair enough! I was actually coming back to remove my post since it served no purpose other than my vent. I suppose I'm not that great at arguing myself, I tend to just trip over my words.

You are right, we all have our filters that we view the world from. I think I was probably able to look past some of her sexist comments towards men in the interview because I really enjoyed and agreed with her views on energy. If I were a man that may have been far more offensive. For the record I don't think we need to swing towards a matriarical society, that's out of balance too.

Namaste,
Di

[DianeKJ]

i watched it again, all the way through,

i want the power structure removed. (the patriarchy) but i dont want the opposite put in its place.
two wrongs dont make a right.

true balance and androgyny doesnt care what sex you are.
and if you have to localise something to one sex, its not balanced.

i hope i havnt stepped out of line with this post.

steve

Your views and opinions are just as important, you are in no way out of line. Thank you for sharing it with us.
-Di

[ArjunaArcana]

It is my belief that the future of this world lies within the heart of women.

I say this because women have been able to trust that part of ourselves that is wrongfully called intuition as if it is something extra or outside of the human spirit.

Its not that women will replace men and start the same order as the patriarchy, but after women have broken free they could teach men and help them to trust that tiny little voice that women have listened to for centuries.

[Lord Sidious]

Human beings reach their peak at about age 10 or 11. Totally delightful beings. Then, in a few years the hormones start kicking in, and it's all down hill from there.

Testosterone may have been useful when we had to battle saber-toothed tigers. I can't see that it is of much use these days.

Try coming out of a late night movie with your goddess and having 4 guys demand your wallet and then comment on what they want to do with her.

[Calz]

Human beings reach their peak at about age 10 or 11. Totally delightful beings. Then, in a few years the hormones start kicking in, and it's all down hill from there.

Testosterone may have been useful when we had to battle saber-toothed tigers. I can't see that it is of much use these days.

Try coming out of a late night movie with your goddess and having 4 guys demand your wallet and then comment on what they want to do with her.

I thought that is what your light saber was for???

:laser: :boxing: :boxing: :boxing: :boxing:

[Sierra]

I got that what we are going through is a normal part of the cycle where we are transiting from the male paradigm to one of loving balance.

I found that reassuring. I hope I find it reassuring right up to the cliff edge she mentions.

I ordered the book <evil grin> and I hope to pull a few plugs :).

Just call me a power mad mystic.

[sepia]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tIBStp2-uT0

:luv:

ooops - is this really the kind of men you would like to see in this world? That are needed on this planet?

Although - she seems to benefit a lot, that's for sure. But he seems to have lost...

Sepia

[Lord Sidious]

Human beings reach their peak at about age 10 or 11. Totally delightful beings. Then, in a few years the hormones start kicking in, and it's all down hill from there.

Testosterone may have been useful when we had to battle saber-toothed tigers. I can't see that it is of much use these days.

Try coming out of a late night movie with your goddess and having 4 guys demand your wallet and then comment on what they want to do with her.

I thought that is what your light saber was for???

:laser: :boxing: :boxing: :boxing: :boxing:

Have you got any idea how long one of those things take to charge up?

[Sierra]

Human beings reach their peak at about age 10 or 11. Totally delightful beings. Then, in a few years the hormones start kicking in, and it's all down hill from there.

Testosterone may have been useful when we had to battle saber-toothed tigers. I can't see that it is of much use these days.

Try coming out of a late night movie with your goddess and having 4 guys demand your wallet and then comment on what they want to do with her.

I thought that is what your light saber was for???

:laser: :boxing: :boxing: :boxing: :boxing:

Have you got any idea how long one of those things take to charge up?

You need one of those great big honking Crocodile Dundee knives ...

[Lord Sidious]

Human beings reach their peak at about age 10 or 11. Totally delightful beings. Then, in a few years the hormones start kicking in, and it's all down hill from there.

Testosterone may have been useful when we had to battle saber-toothed tigers. I can't see that it is of much use these days.

Try coming out of a late night movie with your goddess and having 4 guys demand your wallet and then comment on what they want to do with her.

I thought that is what your light saber was for???

:laser: :boxing: :boxing: :boxing: :boxing:

Have you got any idea how long one of those things take to charge up?

You need one of those great big honking Crocodile Dundee knives ...

Even better.
Can anyone say ''katana?''


http://www.samurai-swords-for-sale.com/store/images/T/japanese-swords-samurai-swords-musashi-maou-kaze-katana.jpg

[SKAWF]

Even better.
Can anyone say ''katana?''


http://www.samurai-swords-for-sale.com/store/images/T/japanese-swords-samurai-swords-musashi-maou-kaze-katana.jpg

slightly off topic, but is that a paul chen practical katana?, i have the wakizashi (more mobility in the house)

[Lord Sidious]

Even better.
Can anyone say ''katana?''


http://www.samurai-swords-for-sale.com/store/images/T/japanese-swords-samurai-swords-musashi-maou-kaze-katana.jpg

slightly off topic, but is that a paul chen practical katana?, i have the wakizashi (more mobility in the house)

I just pulled the pic off the net, I have no idea if it is a good one or not.
The wakizashi is too short for my liking, some of the moves I know are too hard with something that short.
A ninja to is ok though.

[Calz]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tIBStp2-uT0

:luv:

ooops - is this really the kind of men you would like to see in this world? That are needed on this planet?

Although - she seems to benefit a lot, that's for sure. But he seems to have lost...

Sepia

Thank you Sepia.

Can you elaborate a bit more on what kind of man you (or anyone for that matter) *would* like to see in this world?

He seems to have lost ... ?


As a sidenote ... it appears I contributed to derailing the topic of a very important thread.

Let me be the first to try to pull things back. :offtopic: :focus:

[Maria Stade]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tIBStp2-uT0

:luv:

ooops - is this really the kind of men you would like to see in this world? That are needed on this planet?

Although - she seems to benefit a lot, that's for sure. But he seems to have lost...

Sepia

I would see all kinds of men. Maybe this one is lost or maybe he choose to be so.

The thing is that there is ways of work with self and tantra is on of them.

It all about self realisation and a partner in not needed untill one is ready for one.

It can also be worked with a partner but it dose not begin there, it starts with self and its all about energy.

Many have blockages in their sexual energy that needs to activly be worked on.

This is in both males and females.

Balance can be found in many ways.

Its just a hint, worth to take a look at.

Maria

[elysian]

Fantastic Bill,
Thank you ever so much for efforts in sharing this message to us.
Even though probably a lot of people will say they no it all already, this is an important reminder to all of us so the we all can remember again.
"To Re-member, To become a member of the one once again"

<3

[grapevine]

This thread is very interesting.

I have almost always found that if you say you're sorry to somebody you've had a disagreement with, the other person then thinks that you have admitted to upsetting them and that is just not the case. Have you found that? What I'm really sorry about is that the argument happened at all, not that I had a different point of view that upset the person. I think I read in the Course of Miracles that although forgiveness is good there can be no blame because nothing really happened. Having said that, and as a woman, I would like to apologise here and now for anything I have ever said or done that hurt or upset anyone.

Love to all .......... xxx

[SEAM]

Mainstream not far behind on this one.. (for a change) Taking the Gender Fight Worldwide: http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/30/world/europe/30iht-letter30.html?_r=3&partner=rss&emc=rss

"She is lobbying governments across the world to pay more attention to women — and put more money into U.N. Women’s coffers".

[HORIZONS]

This fits in here...
http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?4495-The-End-of-Men

[Snowbird]

I have heard Lucia speak twice for over an hour each time. I have yet to interpret what she is saying as any sort of discrimination against anyone or either gender.

She doesn't discuss men and women or boys and girls or female beings and male beings. She is discussing the energies of the masculine and the feminine. And these energies are at times destructive and controlling depending upon which dimensional plane they are experienced.

IMO, we are living on a 3rd dimensional plane and many of the beings here are 4th dimensional beings and higher. The masculine energy on this 3rd dimensional plane is harmful. This does not mean that all men living on this 3D plane are destructive and controlling and uncaring and unfeeling. They DO exist however, and are causing much pain and destruction and it is these very 3D masculine energies that Lucia describes and talks about in this interview. She was being interviewed by a man, Bill Ryan, who is NOT a 3D masculine energy, but is from a much higher vibrational frequency. She was not talking to and about Bill Ryan or many of the millions of other caring and loving men living on this earth. She was talking about and describing the Controllers.

[Dennis Jonathan]

I am a man. I have many power tools. Like a lion, I roar when awoken from a sleep. I get dirty, I like to play sports, watch the game, etc. I have been trained to fight for over a decade, and if someone made a move to hurt my wife or kids, I would have no problem neutralizing them in a second.

That being said...

I thoroughly enjoyed this interview, and took no offense to any part of the message.

Grow up people, this woman is brilliant.

[Agape]

http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll256/PaldenLhamo/India%20Album/ardhanarishvara_tm73.jpg

It's far beyond the patriarchy...

We all are children of the mothers of this universe ..


It's the Life in you, the Life that has created you , it's your DNA. It's the outfit ..

We are all the same from inside, no matter how we are big and small

Without compassion this civilisation can not survive ..


:angel:

[jorr lundstrom]

Human beings reach their peak at about age 10 or 11. Totally delightful beings. Then, in a few years the hormones start kicking in, and it's all down hill from there.

Testosterone may have been useful when we had to battle saber-toothed tigers. I can't see that it is of much use these days.

Try coming out of a late night movie with your goddess and having 4 guys demand your wallet and then comment on what they want to do with her.

My Lord. If I find myself in the scene you have painted here, that could be my last stand.

Ive never been in that kind of situation but I imagine I had got into a total rage.

Im the sweetest man you could imagine, up to a point, then to h""l with the sweetness.:ranger:

[Agape]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IHIKkUS6dNU

Go with your heart...

It may require 32 patriarchs to uplug the patriarchy ..

:hug:

[Sierra]

It may require 32 patriarchs to uplug the patriarchy ..

:hug:

Lessee posting on this thread alone ... we gots Bill, Paul, Arpheus, HaveBlue, GreyBeard, Meeradas, Amerjo, Skawf, DawgBone, Calz, Dennis, Jorr, Lord Sidious ... you know... lots of nice patriarchs around here! (Apologies if I skipped a name gentle sirs ...)

[Calz]

It may require 32 patriarchs to uplug the patriarchy ..

:hug:

Lessee posting on this thread alone ... we gots Bill, Paul, Arpheus, HaveBlue, GreyBeard, Meeradas, Amerjo, Skawf, DawgBone, Calz, Dennis, Jorr, Lord Sidious ... you know... lots of nice patriarchs around here! (Apologies if I skipped a name gentle sirs ...)

We all have two hands ... if necessary perhaps we can gather 16 and "go for it" in a masculine sort of way???

[Agape]

It may require 32 patriarchs to uplug the patriarchy ..

:hug:

Lessee posting on this thread alone ... we gots Bill, Paul, Arpheus, HaveBlue, GreyBeard, Meeradas, Amerjo, Skawf, DawgBone, Calz, Dennis, Jorr, Lord Sidious ... you know... lots of nice patriarchs around here! (Apologies if I skipped a name gentle sirs ...)

We all have two hands ... if necessary perhaps we can gather 16 and "go for it" in a masculine sort of way???


Seen you :haha: We have got all inside when times are ready and the place is huge enough..


Thank you all .

[Sierra]

We all have two hands ... if necessary perhaps we can gather 16 and "go for it" in a masculine sort of way???

Dude ... I'm a woman <evil grin> and I have no idea how men go around organizing these things but it just happens when men do their thing ... I think.

<edit insert begin>

But we women got your back. Count on it.

<edit insert end>

Sierra bopping internally to Jimmy Cliff's "The Harder They Come, the Harder They Fall"

:kiss: :hug: :hippie:

[Agape]

Gurupuja ? ;) Oh Mahakali mahamayi shambhavi shanti shanmukhe ...


:alien: ..;)


Sweets ?

[Agape]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q-wVhT4mNj4

Shiva puja ..


They want silence at night :panda:

[Sierra]

Gurupuja ? ;) Oh Mahakali mahamayi shambhavi shanti shanmukhe ...


:alien: ..;)


Sweets ?


Gravely handing Agape a piece of home made baklava
:alien: :photo:

[Agape]

Thanks really I can take it to my dreams :hug:

[Sierra]

Thanks really I can take it to my dreams :hug:

lol of course and I hope it is delicious :)

[CyRus]

Hi there,
I find myself getting rather frustrated over the focus of male and female in this thread. The fact that one is acknowledging that there is a patriarchy automatically creates a bias, and immediately creates a polarization.
The only way true gender neutrality can occur in this society is if we do not use such terms as matriarchy or patriarchy in the first place...

[Calz]

We all have two hands ... if necessary perhaps we can gather 16 and "go for it" in a masculine sort of way???

Dude ... I'm a woman <evil grin> and I have no idea how men go around organizing these things but it just happens when men do their thing ... I think.

<edit insert begin>

But we women got your back. Count on it.

<edit insert end>

Sierra bopping internally to Jimmy Cliff's "The Harder They Come, the Harder They Fall"

:kiss: :hug: :hippie:

I was speaking in jest.

Working with a 12 step program to help me with my addiction to smileys.

Gosh ... if you have our back does that mean you are *walk-ins* ???

[Sierra]

I was speaking in jest.

Working with a 12 step program to help me with my addiction to smileys.

Gosh ... if you have our back does that mean you are *walk-ins* ???

Oh no! I love smileys! :) :) :) :) :)

Looking down at equipment ... nope no *walk-in*! Yet! Eeeeks!

[panopticon]

G'day All,

Some have expressed difficulty in listening/watching this interview. At first I was reluctant to comment on the interview as the feminist message Lucia partially presents is, in my own opinion, valuable and it is not my place to respond or comment in relation to a feminist perspective as I have neither cultural nor physical experience in the challenges of being of the female gender in a patriarchal society, or any other society in my present incarnation for that matter! As I have previously stated I have been a long time active feminist supporter in the struggle for equal rights within the work place as well as within broader society. This having been said, I undertook an analysis of the interview through word count and analysis of directive affirmation statements. This should not be interpreted as a negative reflection on the veracity of Lucia's interview or work, rather it is directed at those who had their "spidey senses tingling" while watching/listening to it and as a possible reason as to why this occurred.

I am sorry that I can not refer to a deeper psychic validity in relation to this analysis. It is an interpretation of a statistical analysis and not intended as anything other than that.

Lucia's use of what I shall call 'in text reinforcing directive affirmations' was extensive.
If the audio is listened to this becomes almost immediately apparent (I admit not having watched the video).
The single word 'in text reinforcing directive affirmations' that I refer too are "right", "yes" and "yar".
The multi word examples are "you know" and "you see".
The single word 'in text reinforcing directive affirmations' keywords used when they were answers to a question were not included in the data set.
An example of this is at time stamp 32:10 -> 32:20 where "yes" is said by Lucia twice in respose to a question Bill asked around the awakening of consciousness through the interim period. This example of the use of the directive word "yes" was chosen so as to distinguish between its normal use in language, as in this time stamped reference, and its directive useage. This difference is shown in time segment 32:33 - 32:37 "Yes, into the third dimension which we're calling the physical, yes(?)". The question mark (?) following the yes directive keyword hopefully shows the difference in word usage as used in this analysis. Lucia waited for a response from Bill in agreement with her before continuing. This works well in a 'one on one' situation but may be a problem in the recorded interview format.

The following table is split into 4 sequential time segments of roughly 20 minutes each (0:00 to 20:00, 20:00 to 40:20, 40:20 to 61:30 and 61:30 to end) and shows the number of times the keyword directive affirmations were used to reinforce a certain dynamic.



http://projectavalon.net/forum4/attachment.php?attachmentid=6533&d=1301546895

I was stunned at the uniformity of the pattern exhibited within each time segment at being near to the 33 directives per 20 minute segment.
In itself not unusual as this would indicate that Lucia uses this in her normal conversational construction pattern and that it was in all likelihood not deliberately "put on".
The above table does not include the two word or more directive phrases used such as "you know" and "you see".
If the interview segment 43:35 -> 45:20 is examined the following results are evident:



http://projectavalon.net/forum4/attachment.php?attachmentid=6534&d=1301546895

This may not appear very interesting, however when looked at as 6 directive words being used within the space of 105 seconds I think it is.
This means that Lucia was reinforcing her own statements (in this time segment) more than once every 20 seconds.
The interview had a grand total of 131 single word 'in text reinforcing directive affirmations' in 84 minutes.
I do not think it outlandish to say that Lucia did this at least once every 30 seconds during her part of the interviews dialogue.

Why/how did I notice this and what difference does it make?
I have made it a practice to listen to the way things are said, how they are repeated, physical gestures (though not in this case) and word pattern repetition.
When I notice it I ask why was it used and/or was it a conscious decision or learned behaviour?
In this interview it appears to be non-conscious and in all likelihood a result of learned behaviour through imitation (not unusual following a master/disciple indoctrination period).
That's all.

I repeat. This is not intended as a critique of Lucia's message, that is not my place to do, merely that this may be one reason why some found this interview hard going.

Kind Regards, :yo:
Panopticon

[sepia]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tIBStp2-uT0

:

ooops - is this really the kind of men you would like to see in this world? That are needed on this planet?

Although - she seems to benefit a lot, that's for sure. But he seems to have lost...

Sepia

I would see all kinds of men. Maybe this one is lost or maybe he choose to be so.

Maria



Yes I agree, I should have thought about it more careful.

I was so perplex about these two people being presented as the 'good example'
my comment poured out of me and then I ran out of the thread...:confused:

It can be on topic - because of the gender-discussion going on here - being a very complex one.
(Not going into Tantra here...)

- Yes I agree, all different kind of men and women are welcome in the future world
- Yes - any couple has a free will to do what ever they want as long as both agree.
- And yes, these two people seem to enjoy each other greatly.

I just cannot see them as role models.

By looking at there energy-field (and I'm not the only capable to do this on this Forum):

-> you see, that the Lady is fully present in all her chakras. Each and every one is happily radiating: open heart, centered in her third eye, all fine here.

-> But the man, although he shows a happy face, is only living through his first, second, and partially his third Chakra -


and this is a tragedy.

This is more the relationship of a Lady with her beloved pet than a relationship between two equally strong personalities. In the long run this is abuse - just the other way around.

And this made me run away from this thread.

I apoligize if I have hurt anybody with my statement - this certainly wasn't intended.

Best wishes, Sepia

[ace]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tIBStp2-uT0

:

ooops - is this really the kind of men you would like to see in this world? That are needed on this planet?

Although - she seems to benefit a lot, that's for sure. But he seems to have lost...

Sepia

I would see all kinds of men. Maybe this one is lost or maybe he choose to be so.

Maria



Yes I agree, I should have thought about it more careful.

I was so perplex about these two people being presented as the 'good example'
my comment poured out of me and then I ran out of the thread...:confused:

It can be on topic - because of the gender-discussion going on here - being a very complex one.
(Not going into Tantra here...)

- Yes I agree, all different kind of men and women are welcome in the future world
- Yes - any couple has a free will to do what ever they want as long as both agree.
- And yes, these two people seem to enjoy each other greatly.

I just cannot see them as role models.

By looking at there energy-field (and I'm not the only capable to do this on this Forum):

-> you see, that the Lady is fully present in all her chakras. Each and every one is happily radiating: open heart, centered in her third eye, all fine here.

-> But the man, although he shows a happy face, is only living through his first, second, and partially his third Chakra -


and this is a tragedy.

This is more the relationship of a Lady with her beloved pet than a relationship between two equally strong personalities. In the long run this is abuse - just the other way around.

And this made me run away from this thread.

I apoligize if I have hurt anybody with my statement - this certainly wasn't intended.

Best wishes, Sepia

Hi Sepia

I can absolutely aline with you in your observation, This is more the relationship of a Lady with her beloved pet than a relationship between two equally strong personalities.

She has quite obviously found her "Tantra Playmate", And from my observational stand point (Blind Man Feeling the Elephant) it looks like he's eating all the pies!!

It doesn't resonate that she is abusing him (He is obviously a consenting adult) and is lapping it up.

She is giving him what he needs and vice versa.

No apologies needed here, very much enjoy reading your philosophy.

Regards
Ace

[jorr lundstrom]

Im no expert. But are exercises only for those who functions totally. :luv:

[Fractalius]

Thanks I will check it out in the next few days when I have time. :-)

Noted in this thread though is an issue related to semantics.
The concept of apology and guilt bought about by its introduction to the thread with the sentence, " and as a man - apologizing for the abusive attitudes and actions of many of my fellow men for countless generations - I'm delighted to be giving it the prominence it deserves."
.. Is probably going to more frequently read as endorsement to holding personal guilt and feeling delighted to pay penance. It is in the language. Not so much the perception of the reader (as far as the tipping of scales would go).
Latter clarifications were more concise and appropriate to the original intention of meaning.
Nevertheless, I am picking that the topic was scheduled to be bought up by the nature of the interview.
These discussions can be challenging and messy. There are extremists on both sides, as far as the battle of the sexes go. Quite a big one, it gets us all, we are all one or the other, and much of the control over us is linked to gender.

The discussion doesn't usually go anywhere near belief or non belief in reincarnation. If that be true, then we are likely to have existed as both genders. Who knows, the biggest man hater might have been a chauvinistic pig in a past life.
Understanding spiritual androgyny explained. lol.

[Agape]

Thanks really I can take it to my dreams :hug:

lol of course and I hope it is delicious :)

Your welcome ..;)

Ever heard of Disclosure ? I'm not worried about the Thing, people will do that..it's peoples jobs, to educate each other on the topic .

I can take care of my heavenly duties ..


have munchies ..


live close to nature ...among friends..


:pray:

[Agape]

I've been caught here for timebeing that's true but people seem to be very careless about each other here, where I live. An annonymous society with all its pettiness planned forwards.

One Japanese friend described about the same to me when he talked about his life in Japan, I believe he lived in Tokyo.

Therefor, it has to be sort of multicultural pattern on the Earth at the moment . People live, lots of them, like empty shells , like civilized animals,
no I do not like this pattern.


It needs to change


:grouphug:


Kalachakra the XI :alien:

[Inelia]

In Unplugging the Patriarchy, Lucia explains the nature of the change which is happening right now and will anchor in 2012, including how roles have been reversed for the last 5000 years and how this has meant a huge shutting down of the Heart Chakra, which is where men are naturally centered.

She also explained to me that Men are Structure. This information put together a lot of pieces for me.

I have been speaking for months (and some people for years) about becoming heart centered and opening the Heart Center.

The Heart Center is a space from between and just above the shoulder blades to just behind the breastbone and below the throat chakra, encompassing the heart chakra. This is where the "form" or structure is contained that links all the different bodies, self, soul and spirit. Command Central as it were. When fully functioning, energy flows undisturbed and healthily, experienced as unconditional love, or simply enormous divine energy. - If shut down, one of the ways Power is experienced, or desired, is "power over others".

As you know, men and women both have masculine and feminine energies within themselves, and it depending on what body one has incarnated in, either feminine or masculine energy is predominant for that lifetime, but there are exceptions to this rule.

The reason we have been healing, opening and changing our viewpoint to the Heart Center is because this is where structure resides. And without structure, power cannot be channeled and embodied in a healthy way.

The natural state is for women to be Power (CHI) and for men to be Structure. Structure includes defense, nurturing, love, service, and making sure everything is running smoothly so that nothing is clogging up the flow of Power.

This natural paradigm is what we are moving back into on a world wide scale. It is still dual based, as this is a dual reality, but everything is in its proper place. For example, crude oil is not an evil substance. It is part of Mother Earth and serves many roles and purposes. However, when it is in the "wrong" place, it kills and pollutes and creates much suffering.

Once we are done, we will all be able to move onto much higher level games in life.

[Agape]

The natural state is for women to be Power (CHI) and for men to be Structure. Structure includes defense, nurturing, love, service, and making sure everything is running smoothly so that nothing is clogging up the flow of Power.



The above phrase briefly describes the old aged dogma , hierarchy and pattern the 'cultured' society was built upon,
the rules and the division. 'We' ( men , could be women in matriarchal society ) are the law , the knowing , the sctructure..'you' are different, you have no heads ( but big hearts ) and can do the job that's needed.

'We' will create the order and 'you' will do what is expected from you ..


:p

[FrankoL]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tIBStp2-uT0

:

ooops - is this really the kind of men you would like to see in this world? That are needed on this planet?

Although - she seems to benefit a lot, that's for sure. But he seems to have lost...

Sepia

I would see all kinds of men. Maybe this one is lost or maybe he choose to be so.

Maria



Yes I agree, I should have thought about it more careful.

I was so perplex about these two people being presented as the 'good example'
my comment poured out of me and then I ran out of the thread...:confused:

It can be on topic - because of the gender-discussion going on here - being a very complex one.
(Not going into Tantra here...)

- Yes I agree, all different kind of men and women are welcome in the future world
- Yes - any couple has a free will to do what ever they want as long as both agree.
- And yes, these two people seem to enjoy each other greatly.

I just cannot see them as role models.

By looking at there energy-field (and I'm not the only capable to do this on this Forum):

-> you see, that the Lady is fully present in all her chakras. Each and every one is happily radiating: open heart, centered in her third eye, all fine here.

-> But the man, although he shows a happy face, is only living through his first, second, and partially his third Chakra -


and this is a tragedy.

This is more the relationship of a Lady with her beloved pet than a relationship between two equally strong personalities. In the long run this is abuse - just the other way around.

And this made me run away from this thread.

I apoligize if I have hurt anybody with my statement - this certainly wasn't intended.

Best wishes, Sepia

Sepia, you are completely right. Their relationship will not last for long - fake happiness. When someone is propagating out loud how happy she/he is, in fact it is right the opposite.

I am sorry to say, but they look like 15 y/o lovers. I mean their behavior is like that (not natural). Did they missed the train?

He is more into younger woman, but over 50 is next to him. That explains complete picture. (just kidding, they are nice couple, role-models)

[FrankoL]

In Unplugging the Patriarchy, Lucia explains the nature of the change which is happening right now and will anchor in 2012, including how roles have been reversed for the last 5000 years and how this has meant a huge shutting down of the Heart Chakra, which is where men are naturally centered.

She also explained to me that Men are Structure. This information put together a lot of pieces for me.

I have been speaking for months (and some people for years) about becoming heart centered and opening the Heart Center.

The Heart Center is a space from between and just above the shoulder blades to just behind the breastbone and below the throat chakra, encompassing the heart chakra. This is where the "form" or structure is contained that links all the different bodies, self, soul and spirit. Command Central as it were. When fully functioning, energy flows undisturbed and healthily, experienced as unconditional love, or simply enormous divine energy. - If shut down, one of the ways Power is experienced, or desired, is "power over others".

As you know, men and women both have masculine and feminine energies within themselves, and it depending on what body one has incarnated in, either feminine or masculine energy is predominant for that lifetime, but there are exceptions to this rule.

The reason we have been healing, opening and changing our viewpoint to the Heart Center is because this is where structure resides. And without structure, power cannot be channeled and embodied in a healthy way.

The natural state is for women to be Power (CHI) and for men to be Structure. Structure includes defense, nurturing, love, service, and making sure everything is running smoothly so that nothing is clogging up the flow of Power.

This natural paradigm is what we are moving back into on a world wide scale. It is still dual based, as this is a dual reality, but everything is in its proper place. For example, crude oil is not an evil substance. It is part of Mother Earth and serves many roles and purposes. However, when it is in the "wrong" place, it kills and pollutes and creates much suffering.

Once we are done, we will all be able to move onto much higher level games in life.

How do you know that? ...Maybe it is only your opinion, ... be more explicit.

[Inelia]

The natural state is for women to be Power (CHI) and for men to be Structure. Structure includes defense, nurturing, love, service, and making sure everything is running smoothly so that nothing is clogging up the flow of Power.



The above phrase briefly describes the old aged dogma , hierarchy and pattern the 'cultured' society was built upon,
the rules and the division. 'We' ( men , could be women in matriarchal society ) are the law , the knowing , the sctructure..'you' are different, you have no heads ( but big hearts ) and can do the job that's needed.

'We' will create the order and 'you' will do what is expected from you ..


:p

Read again. We ALL move our focus from our heads to our hearts. We ALL have male and female energy. And we have, or choose one which is predominant. And YES, we ARE all different. Completely and utterly different from each other. There are not two persons who are the same. What is wrong with being different? Nothing. If we were all the same, this planet would be very, very boring.




How do you know that? ...Maybe it is only your opinion, ... be more explicit.

45 years on the planet effectively working with thousands of men and women on their personal ascension.

[Agape]

Read again. We ALL move our focus from our heads to our hearts. We ALL have male and female energy. And we have, or choose one which is predominant. And YES, we ARE all different. Completely and utterly different from each other. There are not two persons who are the same. What is wrong with being different? Nothing. If we were all the same, this planet would be very, very boring.

Yes . we do. I'm not on the argumentative side . Just don't forget that rising the energy succesfully from heart to head ( so we are actually able to use our heads again ) may pose equally difficult task .

Everyone has a valid point ..


As you probably know from the yoga theory ( or similar sciences ) , the energy has natural tendency to drop down unless we force it move up.

The 'up' in this case, moving from coarse to more complicated ..is not easy task.

The reason why many need to re-experience their heart ( we all do ) is because we found that what is in our heads is not enough ..

I mean, there can be plenty of volume :lol: , energy, speed but little discernment .

[cjhepburn]

I really enjoyed your interview with Ms Rene. She is very eloquent and I'm going to buy a stake of books to give as gifts. I wish I had her calm, and I thought your apology was very thoughtful. That doesn't happen often and is always appreciated.

Just the other day I apologize to store clerk because another customer was so horribly rude the clerk was fighting back the tears. It had nothing to do with me but I felt she deserved an apology and to know that someone was listening. This is something that thoughtful people do and we should never stop.

Gentlemen, this book would make a perfect gift for any woman in your life, including your moms.

Cherie

[Victoria Tintagel]

Hey Avaloneans, men and women :) If you believe in past lives, which I do, then we've all danced before, in both genders and now that we're presented with that karma, played out in all sorts of ways: the way we use(d) and balance(d) both qualities, the pain of that in ourselves, awakens and longs to be forgiven. Your choice and mine, always. Many of my friends grow through changes in their relationships, no longer able to avoid the truth of it and start dusting off the false images. And even within my life, as a single woman, the relationship with myself is exactly the same, in that process.

If you want to see it like "as within, so without" modern society crumbles under the dominance of patriarchy: life is squeezed out of things that thrive on it and they die: species disappear and chronic diseases increase. Synthetic foodproducts are on our dinner tables, mind control defines the state of our brains and emotions, if we allow that to happen. Our hearts and minds together, are able to discern and make healthy choices.
Acknowledging the beauty and power of both, in harmony. Always moving and changing, never rigid, so that we keep finding new balance each day, learning and making mistakes on our path. In our hearts we may forgive our pain and heal with compassion, like we may forgive others and heal our relationships.

Only then we can begin to see and appreciate the qualities of both masculine and feminine energy. And while we need both sides, here in 3D reality, to live, give life and love, in marriage and companionship, we can learn from each other, be open to each other's qualities and see the competition that creeps in sometimes. To use feminine and masculine energy in ourselves, in a balanced way, is the meaning of the Sacred Marriage: to join the base chakras with the love of our heart: our inner sanctuary. And use power in a beneficial way.

We are at the end of a 26.000 year cycle, in 2012, according the Maya, the last 13.000 years in patriarchy dominance, the ending, like Lucia Renee explains here. The fun part of looking at this from an overview, is that after this there will be a 13.000 year cycle of matriarchy and then, again, a cycle of patriarchy. So, it's really a cosmic game. We play this game on a human level, with our personal drama, learning to see ourselves as a spiritual being, ever evolving. I love Sepia's suggestion to be compassionate towards another's pain and ask forgiveness for what's caused this pain in him/her. I believe in the goodness of the human heart and I can see that all negativity stems from being hurt and wounded. I learned to see that in myself and in others. Thank you Bill, for a wonderful interview!
Namaste to all of you, be in grace, Victoria Tintagel.

[Sierra]

<snip>
Just the other day I apologize to store clerk because another customer was so horribly rude the clerk was fighting back the tears. It had nothing to do with me but I felt she deserved an apology and to know that someone was listening. This is something that thoughtful people do and we should never stop.
<snip>
Cherie

Once I was waiting in line behind a woman to pay for my clothes. The woman in front of me was being SO rude! The sales clerk kept apologizing to me for taking so long and I kept saying no problem I'm not in a hurry. I get to the counter and because she was so grateful for my patience, she gave me her sales clerk 20% discount ... :madgrin:

Sierra :hippie:

[Sierra]

<snip>
Just don't forget that rising the energy succesfully from heart to head ( so we are actually able to use our heads again ) may pose equally difficult task .
<snip>


Moan ... <banging head on desk>



<snip>
I mean, there can be plenty of volume :lol: , energy, speed but little discernment .
You got that right sister :becky:

Sierra :hippie:

[modwiz]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tIBStp2-uT0

:luv:

ooops - is this really the kind of men you would like to see in this world? That are needed on this planet?

Although - she seems to benefit a lot, that's for sure. But he seems to have lost...

Sepia

I am in agreement with you here Sepia. I only made it half way through this video. I felt my testosterone levels drop watching it. At least I think that was what that draining feeling was. There's a first time for everything.

Besides the almost sad feeling from watching this man I could not escape the idea that it was going to turn into a commercial for Viagra or something.

The posture and energy from the man were one of being drained, not at peace, although he may be very happy.

Her vitality was in stark contrast to his. She hummed with energy.

[HaveBlue]

We can only hit a 'thanks' button on the forum. A youtube thumbs up or down with the count for each would be so much better.
Lots of 'types' have had wrong done to them since Ig and Um, not just women.
Over here in NZ a Labour Party offical told a party member 'oh for christs sake, just because we don't have the correct amount of Maoris, women and cripples in the caucus etc....

It was funny but most real too. And this was 20 over years ago.
I will not be apologizing to anybody I have not done wrong to thank you. It is hard work being a 'real' man and must be worked at every day. but the rewards are many. To have the trust and respect of many, including many women is an immense reward says I.

[Gone002]

Can someone fill me in, patriarchy cycle? matriarch cycle? why does this affect me and how does it affect me as a male. i an't been neutered ;)

[Icecold]

Essentially, none of what has been discussed has happened. Its a wish list for those who seek avenues of power. I doubt that my life will change whether I live in a pat/mat/ or combo. While those that seek power and control pursue their desires, I'll be in the garden smelling the roses.

Have fun with it.

Cheers.

(slaps a mosquito into next week while patting the dog)

[Fractalius]

Having now listened to the interview, I would like to make comment that Lucia seems like a very nice, normal person to me, and you people should listen to what she is saying. :p

Also, it clarifies which I presumed would be the case, that using the word apology and to many extents the definition we instinctively link with that word, is an archaic, less 'enlightened'/balanced form of thinking or addressing the the notion of masculine and feminine energies. There is nothing 'wrong' with such uses of wordings, yet as we clearly see, it must be expected it will hijack many into one division or another. This is A way to bring attention to the subject, yet it has had quite a lot of collateral damage in the past. Mainly by entrenching certain characters further into their divisions rather than filling in the trenches and levelling the playing field.

[FrankoL]

The natural state is for women to be Power (CHI) and for men to be Structure. Structure includes defense, nurturing, love, service, and making sure everything is running smoothly so that nothing is clogging up the flow of Power.



The above phrase briefly describes the old aged dogma , hierarchy and pattern the 'cultured' society was built upon,
the rules and the division. 'We' ( men , could be women in matriarchal society ) are the law , the knowing , the sctructure..'you' are different, you have no heads ( but big hearts ) and can do the job that's needed.

'We' will create the order and 'you' will do what is expected from you ..


:p

Read again. We ALL move our focus from our heads to our hearts. We ALL have male and female energy. And we have, or choose one which is predominant. And YES, we ARE all different. Completely and utterly different from each other. There are not two persons who are the same. What is wrong with being different? Nothing. If we were all the same, this planet would be very, very boring.




How do you know that? ...Maybe it is only your opinion, ... be more explicit.

45 years on the planet effectively working with thousands of men and women on their personal ascension.

Thanks for responding. Do you know why I pointed that out? You sounded like "patriarchal" oriented, On a very high level, I must say.

Let me explain. In my POV, old paradigm is all about hierarchy, superiority, mysticism, differentiation, separation, … you name it. Lets face it your writing is exactly that (all about “I am…”).

Preaching that paradigm will change is discounted (as you completely fit into it).

I don’t have nothing against you (as I can be you), but it is proper and healthy also for you, to receive some different kinds of feedback. We all have to improve, including yourself.

[Agape]

It's easy ..tantra in two steps ..

if all ladies vote for patriarchy and all gentlemen for matriarchy ..there's peace on Earth..

see the Deity in you is seeing the Deity in me , no one else than Divinity is seing the Divinity that's why we're all Divine.
I should better retreat to the sanskrit alphabet ..

The second step may be the more difficult one for all of us, say every citizen of Earth..

cut your mind from ordinary, mundane experience ..the dull, shallow slaughter . How else do you nickname it ...


See, so we're at the step one ..


Count down ...to...0004176 ...


:)

[regaks]

Hello all

I am new to this but would just like to thank all of you who have replied. Although I have not made it through all the posts, the ones I have read feel seeded with love. Thank you Bill for the interview and the initiation of the dialogue. The part of the interview that resonated with me was near the beginning when she was speaking of the chakras. If I understood her words, she noted that male energy appears to flow from the heart chakra and that we (humanaity) are moving towards the universal "heart" unconditional love energy. It just made me think of the men I know and love. I immediately thought(felt) - "Yes, I see that, they do work from their heart". Does this mean my hubby has a head start on ascension? Just kidding, I know its not a competition.

[FutureLeFunk]

Excellent video thank you! :)


Excellent interview. It is spot on.

Interesting sync of note: At the very end she says "We've got the tsunami coming in..." "...we've got to surf the wave..." and this was on March 10th...

She mentions, during the interview, riding right up the to edge of the cliff as it were. I feel we're at the beginning of that arrival at the edge (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bz8iEJeh26E) right now, marked by March 11th's events.

I don't like following any doctrines whatsoever, but there is a Zen kōan I dig which is quite apropos at the moment:

"The light of the eyes is as a comet,
And Zen's activity is as lightning.
The sword that kills the man
Is the sword that saves the man."

Rehearsal is over. Time to mount up. :crazy_pilot::neo::crazy_pilot:

My sentiments exactly.

Regardless of whether the tipping point is natural or man made, duality I feel is the key.

I'm actually a little fearful of opening my heart like an open book, because when I do I can feel all of the energy an emotions bouncing around.

On the subject of what I see as a reversal of chaos, therein lies an opportunity for an equilibrium. The female side in each of us is the connection to the Earth, the male side is the connection to the stars.

At this moment of time we reach a point where time exists as in the Fibonacci spiral, where the male/female represent the two equals, the magic constant one. The female side is the first in the series and the deepest connection to what we really are. We remain always as equal beings created by Mother Earth.

My only hope is that we reach out and grasp it. To learn that which we are yet to learn.

Peace & love

Paul

[Psychonautilus]

Why would you apologise for something that other people did Bill?
That is part of the guilt complex they put into us, reject it.
We will accumulate enough guilt for the things we do ourselves without taking onboard more.

It's not about guilt. As males, we embody (either consciously or otherwise) the genetic and racial predisposition towards the feminine on some level, as do many women. The feminine energy and the goddess tradition (as embodied most prominently by women) has been sequestered and compromised since the beginnings of the current age, and its place in our psyche holds both a sacred and sensitive quality. An apology can be a gesture in acknowledgement of this proclivity, and a conscious reminder of how this programming can, and is being undone.

[Maria Stade]

sepia
I was so perplex about these two people being presented as the 'good example'

Actualy I didnt say a word ! This is your words and idea of why I put in the film.

The thead is about enegy and balance !

It is a work to do with oneself !This will be A common problem. More will experience this in pair relations, that one is having kundalini and the other is stuck maybe for years 3D.

All need to work on their own energy level and there is so many ways !

There is much fear to overcome and acceptans of oneself as you are.

There is no right and wrong ONLY FEAR and JUDGEMENT !

We are all changing all the time !

It is about finding out who you are and accepting your self as you are !

Accepting the other as he/she is !

All start with oneself !

Most people have only 3 chakras activ and the way is to overcome different fears and see trough the programing.

This is not right and not wrong it is just how it is !

I like to say also that it has been intressting to see the responses on this 2 people that no one knows, have on others.

I ask you to look at your self.....

A nother coment was that this will not last !

What say that it has to last maby they have the time now and learn a lot from this and then separate.

The idea to own some one crosses clear trough. GIVE ME A BREAK !

We are all learning and experiencing this is the jurny on planet earth !

We where all granted a body that is all you have and that is your tool to experience this world !

[Agape]

And I've heard a poem, song like that...

Sarve loke sukhadayini svabhave viswa karini santushto sampradayini...

diksam apara dayini samtushto sampradayini..

It was a long poem ...

anyone here to continue please join in .....:hug:

[Ivy]

--------

Hi, All:

This new video, with author, teacher, mystic, and woman's activist Lucia René, is an intriguing discussion about the role of women - and men - in today's world: essentially an esoteric perspective on what could be called the depth psychology of power.

Lucia states that the days of the Patriarchy - which has been in command on Planet Earth for thousands of years - are coming to an end. Women are now beginning to stand in their own power... and with it, the role of men is being redefined.

Whatever gender you are, this is a timely and deeply interesting interview. Lucia's book is an important one for our changing times, and as a man - apologizing for the abusive attitudes and actions of many of my fellow men for countless generations - I'm delighted to be giving it the prominence it deserves.

Enjoy. :)

http://unplugfromthepatriarchy.com (http://unplugfromthepatriarchy.com/)

MP3 download: http://projectavalon.net/Lucia_Rene_Unplugging_the_Patriarchy_Bill_Ryan_Project_Avalon_10_March_2011.mp3

Video download: http://projectavalon.net/Lucia_Rene_Unplugging_the_Patriarchy_Bill_Ryan_Project_Avalon_10_March_2011.mp4

http://youtube.com/watch?v=e4vPyClAHqs



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e4vPyClAHqs

Thank You so much for this beautiful interview...!!!! I must say i am pleasantly surprised to see you (Bill) embrace such a topic,I stand in honor of your open heart....BRAVO...!!!!!!

[Snookie]

I realy enjoyed this interview - one of the best I've heard Bill give.

Thanks so much!

[Falconwoman]

The interview was totally and utterly amazing. As Lucia says it's all about the heart. The Earth mother is calling, connecting with her and being midwives' to her new birth, the birth of change. We help her as we let our light shine, to illuminate the world in order to the banish the shadows. Lucia Rene and Bill Ryan are superb.

[sunnyrap]

I had a professional past life regression a couple of years ago. It was most enlightening. One key concept that came clear to me was that, whatever bad thing that was done to me in this or any other lifetime, I most probably was the perpetrator of in yet another lifetime. It's the true nature of karma. Karma isn't a punishment so much as it is a function of natural law in the universe. If we are suffering at the hands of those saturated in lust for physical wealth and power--we were most probably in a personality dishing it out as well in some other life time. This is how we learn cause and effect from every angle, both as giver and recipient.
Its not so much that we have to forgive as that we have to understand, learn and let go.

[Sierra]

Hello all
<snip>
I immediately thought(felt) - "Yes, I see that, they do work from their heart". Does this mean my hubby has a head start on ascension? Just kidding, I know its not a competition.

LOL! Hello and welcome to Avalon Regaks!

Something you said reminded me of something. One of the Tibetan Buddhist enlightened saints that help others on the path is Green Lady Tara. It is said of her that as she approached ascension, her fellow male Buddhists told her to die, reincarnate as a male, and then ascend, that it was only proper.

She acerbically replied that from now on ALL her ascensions would be in a female body.

So it would seem even in ascension the patriarchal competition paradigm can raise its head lol ...

Sierra :wave:

[Agape]

Something you said reminded me of something. One of the Tibetan Buddhist enlightened saints that help others on the path is Green Lady Tara. It is said of her that as she approached ascension, her fellow male Buddhists told her to die, reincarnate as a male, and then ascend, that it was only proper.

She acerbically replied that from now on ALL her ascensions would be in a female body.

So it would seem even in ascension the patriarchal competition paradigm can raise its head lol ...

Sierra


Your gender discrepancies are rather over-complicating the issue here ...

But at the same time, preservation of your species depends on them . You think ? At the end you will all become mums, you will be able to give birth to another being from your body ..
Or...you die off ..

So ..you need to preserve your moms because the future of your species depends on them ..on you all ..


:hug:

[astrid]

I am a man. I have many power tools. .

I am a woman . I have many power tools too . :p

Some of them are the 3D variety for building houses, one of my "jobs"

others are etheric for building, repairing and cleaning energies.

Excellent interview and discussion,

Having been born into a VERY patriarchal family structure,
(my father is a church leader and the role of women was very much submissive),
i experienced much in the way of loss of power.

I also understand it was all very much by design for me to learn to rise up against it, and re-claim back my personal power.

It also became very obvious that forgiveness and non judgment was a big part of that re learning.

Everyone has their roles to play in this duality.

No accidents- it was freaky timing for this release for me personally as
i was just dealing with some deep inner work in relation to yet another layer of re-claiming back more parts of my own power.

After i watched this video i went looking for more of Lucia's work,
and she has a lot more interviews archived on her site.

A few are also with our much loved Inelia, it seems they make quite a team......

http://www.unplugfromthepatriarchy.com/archived-events.htm

The Feb 12 one was particularly interesting, detailing the work that they do,
with the global elite. They are a serious force.
I personally would like to thank them both here and now for the work that they are doing.

A HIGHLY RECOMMENDED LISTEN.

http://unplugfromthepatriarchy.com/audio/Public_11-03-19_Surfing_the_Tsumani.mp3


It all depends on how far out you view things from as to what u see. ( IMO)


Will add more to this discussion after i finish moving house.

A

[astrid]

i just found this....


Gay Hendricks, Arjuna Ardagh and a group of Conscious Men from around the world offer apologies to women for thousands of years of imbalance between masculine and feminine energy, as well as vision of a new era of co-creation.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K_uRIMUBnvw

[Shinako]

What an amazing and beautiful woman. I felt very moved by her.

Thank you for interviewing her, Bill.

[Snowbird]

The following interview portion of Barbara Marx Hubbard by Regina Meredith of CMN, is yet another viewpoint of what Lucia Rene is saying. IMO, the secret lies within achieving balance.


There’s nothing greater than the evolving woman with the evolving men together forming evolving work!
-Barbara Marx Hubbard

Barbara Marx Hubbard on Women Waking to Purpose (Transcript)
December 27, 2010


Barbara Marx Hubbard: So, I asked the women, “How many of you feel that something is emerging in you?” And most of them were over 50 in this audience. “That something is emerging in you that’s creative, that hasn’t yet fully expressed itself?

Regina Meredith: Yes. Let’s talk men into this part of it now. That’s the feminine part of it. What’s happening with the men, and how are they folding themselves into this really completely new paradigm from the way they’ve been experiencing their own life, and essentially creating their own lives?

Barbara Marx Hubbard: In my experience the best men I know are yearning for this to happen.

Barbara Marx Hubbard: The best men in the world know that more of the same, particularly more of the same at the structural power center, will fail.

Barbara Marx Hubbard: Even if they are in the power structure. But the ones that have left being at the top of something, who are seeking, actually are much more confused than the women.

Barbara Marx Hubbard: The men obviously have within them their own essential spiritual creativity. But the structures of the Patriarchy and the “success” models that men are trained to make it harder for them. And what really works for the men I have found—and it’s very tricky in here—is if the woman whose vocation they aroused and loving—because it’s a loving urge; it’s not a dominating urge—loves and needs the creativity of the male, she liberates him.

Barbara Marx Hubbard: We yearn for the men to access their own essential self and be able to use the strength of the masculine, which is different than the strength of the feminine. There’s no doubt; men are builders; men have a capacity for form that many of us (women) don’t have. And, I have loved it in my life when I’ve had the male partners and partnering, not necessarily romantic partners. There’s nothing greater than the evolving woman with the evolving men together forming evolving work!

http://www.cmn.tv/transcripts/transcript-barbara-marx-hubbard/

Foundation for Conscious Evolution

http://www.barbaramarxhubbard.com/con/

[gardunk]

as in the Emoto movement toward Japan, both men and women need to apologize to the real Mother, Gaia/lets get back to the true issues

[granny]

Why would you apologise for something that other people did Bill?
That is part of the guilt complex they put into us, reject it.
We will accumulate enough guilt for the things we do ourselves without taking onboard more.

As a man, I was apologizing for the things that men have done to women over the last several thousand years.

Saying "I don't have to apologize, it was nothing to do with me" is exactly the kind of thing that men do. :)

You may not have had time yet to watch the entire interview. At one point I talk about Truth and Reconciliation, citing the Commission established in South Africa in 1995 after the end of Apartheid.

The objective was not to establish guilt or to apportion blame: it was to tell the truth so that a chapter could be ended.

That was the sense in which I apologized: a recognition that these things have been happening.

I think one thing we are learning here is compassion ... for each and every soul.
Bill, thank you so much for this interview ... I have been surfing the wave for quite a while now and I expect the waves to rise in the next few years.
Live in gratitude, be joy ... just a couple of things I must remind myself to do.

[granny]

Well I'll try and be as quick as I can here. We as men (remember there's only one of us here as DW says) have done some pretty awful things to others including fellow men, women , indiginous races etc... over the eons.

I have been told by someone I greatly respect I have killed and been killed in previous lives. I am pleased to say this time around I have neither harmed women , children or animals. I have however given a couple of thrashings to some bullies, thugs call them what you will. No I'm not proud of it but seek and you shall find and that is precisely what they did.

Yes us skinny white guys are the ones to watch out for- As said in Batman ! ' it's the willigness to take action'.
Women's time has come and I'm all for it. Not because they are women but because they can do the task at hand as good as anyone else.
That is only 'some' women. just because you are a woman does not make you in the same league as another that has proven herself. Same goes with anyone, men included.

I do not think women's time has come ... I think Our time has come.

¤=[Post Update]=¤


Look at those countries where women aren't considered equal with men....just LOOK at them!

Yes ... I was thinking of that during the interview. Some have a longer journey than others, but we can wait for them. They will see and their hearts will open because it is time. Until that time I apologize to the oppressed women of the world for the slow progress of their counterparts.

[161803398]

There can be many reasons for forgiveness because it is subjective and the act of forgiving can only be explained by the forgiver. While some might interpret forgiveness as weakness or acceptance of guilt; that is a cultural or personal interpretation. My interpretation of forgiveness is graciousness and compassion. There are other interpretations and I saw this interesting Yoruba quotation a few days ago: "Victory is achieved by he who forgives". I am not saying Bill was forgiving to achieve victory. I am saying his apology is based only on what he says he based it on and cannot be interpreted by anyone but him.

[161803398]

There is also another factor to be considered in regard to women's equality. For instance, I grew up in a family where the women did all of the talking and decision making. It wasn't just our family; it was all of our relatives as well. At family gatherings the women would talk and the men would listen (except I had one uncle who talked). It was amazing to me to discover as I grew up that this was not always the case. However, I put it down to the fact that our family, here in North America, on my mother's side, were Scandinavian and I understand that historically the Viking women were given greater respect because they were in charge of the property while the men went out to sea.

[161803398]

I enjoyed Unplugging the Patriarchy because I was interested in the discussion of the Chakras. However, I think that having a female power group would be as imbalanced as having a male power group. My father's side of the family is Irish. In Ireland they say "we" and when they say "we" they mean it. In the country, at least, they do not yet have the same sense of division of the sexes as we do. They are still "we". We have divided the sexes and consequently have expressions like "Oh, men!" or "Oh, women" which would go entirely over their heads in the Irish countryside. I don't know whether it would be understood in the cities or not because I try not to hang around cities very much. I think the goal of civilizations and individuals would be to achieve a certain degree of androgyny to prevent the type of imbalance that threatens our survival. I think we are neurotic because we are not complete and are forced by our cultures to deny entire aspects of our personalities, in part, because of the division of the sexes. I do agree, however, that some women who have achieved status in our culture do it by copying men rather than doing the female thing. I find that while women in our society might believe themselves to be "liberated" they are not at all.

[Bill Ryan]

------

This video embedded below (also posted by Astrid at post #160 on the previous page) comes from the beautiful Ninja Nun. (See her thread here (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?12082-A-message-from-a-Nun-about-the-Charles-material)...)




Hi Bill,
In don't know if you've seen this one yet. It follows along with Unplugging the Patriarchy and is a new start, a beginning of another way for our planet. Looks like there really are a few good men, after all, and we know a few of them ourselves... :) Sr._

http://youtube.com/watch?v=K_uRIMUBnvw


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K_uRIMUBnvw

[Sierra]

Unplugging the Patriarchy arrived this evening and I'm already quoting a paragraph on page 8 in a PM. I'm looking forward to reading this book.

I don't know why but I am imagining myself as Jim Carey as Stanley Ipkiss in "The Mask" saying, "It feels mmmmmmmeaty!!!"

Silly Sierra :)

[Sierra]

------

This video embedded below (also posted by Astrid at post #160 on the previous page) comes from the beautiful Ninja Nun. (See her thread here (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?12082-A-message-from-a-Nun-about-the-Charles-material)...)
[INDENT][INDENT][INDENT][INDENT]Hi Bill,
In don't know if you've seen this one yet. It follows along with Unplugging the Patriarchy and is a new start, a beginning of another way for our planet. Looks like there really are a few good men, after all, and we know a few of them ourselves... :) Sr._



They had my guts for garters by the end ...

[granny]

Unplugging the Patriarchy arrived this evening and I'm already quoting a paragraph on page 8 in a PM. I'm looking forward to reading this book.

I don't know why but I am imagining myself as Jim Carey as Stanley Ipkiss in "The Mask" saying, "It feels mmmmmmmeaty!!!"

Silly Sierra :)
Silly Sierra ...
Just wondering how my black cat, Fiesty, made it all the way to the west coast?
Tell him I said to come home now!
Granny, who is missing Fiesty. Lovies to the kitty.

[Shades of Dream]

Beautiful, my sincere thanks for this resonating interview.

[The Arthen]

------

Looks like there really are a few good men, after all, and we know a few of them ourselves... :)




Uh oh Bill. In countless of many first world men's experiences...even good men have been trained to hate themselves (or they think that by hating themselves they hope to get approval that way). :) This alone already greatly distorts perception and in fact, creating more hate than is necessary.

I'm not disagreeing with you, but I have to push the energy the other way around. Not in a missile, war-killing type of way of course.

[161803398]

I don't think that the majority of men want to kill anything. Most of the men I know want to lead fairly quiet lives and do creative things. The problem is that in some cases they are forced to kill; in other cases they are told to kill. Both things are put upon them at a young age. People at a young age often don't have the wherewithal to say "no". There are a few men who are very weak and probably bullied by either their dad or other kids. Anyone who feels inferior is easy prey to become cannon fodder or someone who causes harm. If we as a society looked out for each other; got more involved in our communities; we could prevent some bad things from happening. Once a few years ago, I was sitting in a pub in Ireland. At the bar was a friend of mine - a popular guy in the community. Sitting by himself at the other side of the room was a creepy stupid guy -- someone no one liked. My friend called him over and bought him a drink and talked to him for quite a while. After, I asked my friend why he did that. He said some people are potential problems and you have to "bring them in" to the community. If we all did that we would be living in a much better world I believe. Read "Frankenstein" by Mary Shelley.

[pinkfrost]

enjoyed the material from this video very much. enjoyed just listening to her voice best of all. i found the back and forth (with you two) seemed almost like a song. wish we all could speak and listen so well.

i couldn't help but wonder though, when she spoke of the matriarchy being in control 6,000 year ago how women objectified (or whatever the word is that the patriarchy does to create havoc) the men who weren't in control. if i believe in the ancient astronaut theory (which i do) then i can believe that technology was available to do manual labor, etc. if i try to imagine women sticking it to the man i think of...maybe not allowing men to war? or what exactly?

[161803398]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z75J-0FIJYk

Here is what happened to the Minoans.

[Lord Sidious]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z75J-0FIJYk

Here is what happened to the Minoans.

Lets see if those Minoans are visible now.

[Tahi]

I don't think that the majority of men want to kill anything. Most of the men I know want to lead fairly quiet lives and do creative things. The problem is that in some cases they are forced to kill; in other cases they are told to kill. Both things are put upon them at a young age. People at a young age often don't have the wherewithal to say "no". There are a few men who are very weak and probably bullied by either their dad or other kids. Anyone who feels inferior is easy prey to become cannon fodder or someone who causes harm. If we as a society looked out for each other; got more involved in our communities; we could prevent some bad things from happening. Once a few years ago, I was sitting in a pub in Ireland. At the bar was a friend of mine - a popular guy in the community. Sitting by himself at the other side of the room was a creepy stupid guy -- someone no one liked. My friend called him over and bought him a drink and talked to him for quite a while. After, I asked my friend why he did that. He said some people are potential problems and you have to "bring them in" to the community. If we all did that we would be living in a much better world I believe. Read "Frankenstein" by Mary Shelley.

I agree, thats how I was bought up!

I suppose you could call it a classic Hunter / Warrior upbringing. Men were to put Food on the Table, and beat the crap out of anyone you percieved dare harm your family.

Hunting wild animals in the Bush, fishing and other outdoor activities. Was it wrong? I dont feel as though it was (please dont try convince me otherwise. as its not me now). I was always taught to take only what you need, and if you did kill make it quick and painless (preferred, but not always easy to do).

As a child/teenager it gave me an understanding of life and death that books arent able to convey. As an update I dont hunt or go round killing animals for food, like fishing still though. Over the years reading and research I came across a statement (would have to find the source) this person was involved with Shamanic practices.

Thier statement was that animals that incarnated as human food sources were aware they were doing so. (I only have heard this once, it feels right to me. But know I might b taken to task for the last bit).

In summary I'm not a Hunter anymore (the teaching is still there, may need be used again) but it has left me with a deep respect for Nature and Life. And I do cherish both.

Peace

I'm still a Hunter just not for food, now hunt for the truth.

[Constance]

Forgive and Forget? That has grace, purity and liberation written all over it.

We are here in a dualistic world...the feminine and the masculine being dualistic ....And we can transcend duality by experiencing ourselves as the embodiment of all the divine essences and then express that as an outpouring of our hearts.

[Sierra]

I finished the book "Unplugging the Patriarchy". I'm reacting, chemical reaction almost it feels like...

Lucia, what an adventure!!!!!! My heart is still singing. Thank you. Thank you for the Rama stories too. One of my dearest friends was a Rama student and it is so interesting to hear what he was like. I also started a computer career in 1984 and I wonder if I was picking up on Rama’s advice in the aether lol

A sidebar:
After reading this book something entered my awareness. I used to be a heavy hitter on the deaf/Deaf bulletin boards and political chat rooms on the _____ website, where for a long time no one knew my gender. Most people assumed I was male. I thought, wow, a level playing field, I am on a level playing field for the first time in my life. No one knows my looks, race, age, sex, career or what I sound like when I open my mouth. Nothing counted but the words and the truth of the words. I found I had a voice, a place to speak and it had a profound effect on me.

Here, it is known I am female and I observe in surprise the difference in response to my words from the community. It is what it is. It sort of hurts. Well, it feels like grief. Still processing this one … but I wanted to put it out there to see if there is any dialog to be said.

Please be respectful if you respond. This was a tough one to acknowledge. :peep:

[ThePythonicCow]

Here, it is known I am female and I observe in surprise the difference in response to my words from the community.
Could you describe the difference you observe?

[Sierra]

Here, it is known I am female and I observe in surprise the difference in response to my words from the community.
Could you describe the difference you observe?

Ugh. I knew someone was going to ask me that lol! I don't think I WOULD have known the difference without spending years as a genderless poster on other BBs ... and also reading Lucia's book. I don't know why Lucia's book made me put two and two together. Maybe the respect that shines throughout the book for everyone and everything. Maybe hearing a story of women being women in peace and doing their thing. Its the contrast you know that can make you see.

OK, I have to exaggerate WILDLY because it is so amorphous to me. It feels as if I am invisible, spacey, ungrounded. It feels as if I don't exist. It is like reading what a male posted five pages later what I already said and he is acknowledged and I am not. Its like throwing one's opinion into the debate and it is ignored. Or... the metacommunication is brusque. Or the metacommunication is contemptuous. Or the metacommunication is dismissive. Or the metacommunication is rejection ... All of this is horribly exaggerated ... hell Paul, it is MUCH better here at Project Avalon than in the real world LOL!

Metacommunication is normally defined as all the movement and expression AROUND the spoken word that tell you a person is being sarcastic, ironic, loving, cruel or kind or funny. You are NOT supposed to be able to see it in words on a page LOL!

This is why I mention Bill Ryan's communication (in the Integrity thread I think) as being exceptionally congruent and I was trying to understand how his words express integrity. They are just words and the same words are used by everyone else ... BUT the effect is much different. With Bill's words I got a wall at my back. Thats what it feels like. Solid words. Visible words. Dare I say it, words of power that accept I am here, I have a place to stand, I can speak. Not that I worship Bill Ryan or anything but damn how many examples are out there for me to use to show the contrast?

Can you see the difference? Do men give more weight to the words of men than the words of women? Yes. And it makes it difficult in SO many ways to use words as a woman. And there are SO many words that women "should not" use or men will harm them and there are SO many words that are hurtful to women of which there is no equivalent lexicon for the male. Language was built by men for men.

So ... maybe it is the words being used or certain words not being used... I haven't drilled down enough yet to say why, just became aware of the difference today.

Maybe it is the blatant outright support of women's place in the world expressed by Bill/Project Avalon that is so different. In words, in threads, in interviews women are there, women are present, women are acknowledged. Bill acknowledged Lucia and the importance of her work. Maybe that is another reason I noticed the difference today.

Its marginalization. It FEELS like be silent or die.

Maybe its the fact I immediately read another book after Lucia's book called "Thanks for the Memories" by Brice Taylor ...

Geez Paul, I have no idea if I hit the nail yet ... oh man (wiping sweat from face realizing the flack I'll probably face...)

Sierra quivering in her boots damn I'm gonna get clobbered lol! :peep:

[ThePythonicCow]

Sierra quivering in her boots damn I'm gonna get clobbered lol!
Hopefully not too bad :o.

My sense is that there is are many statistical differences between men and women, taken as a group.

Physically, these are reasonably apparent to most of us, and we usually can understand the difference between a group statistical difference and an individual difference. But not always even there.

A little story. Once long ago I held a job as an equipment repairman. The job involved occasionally lifting 50 to 80 pound pieces of equipment. This was back in the days before U.S. Federal regulations had much to say about discriminatory hiring practices. My boss had a strict policy - no women hired. He (of course, a "he") figured a woman could not lift that much. I am sure some women can lift that much - just fewer women on a percentage basis than men. But his rigid thinking on this also led us to hiring a diminutive man with a bad back who wore high heels (ashamed of his short stature I presume.) We always had to send someone out with him when any heavy lifting was involved.

There are group differences and there are individual differences. Every dominant center in the National Basketball Association (NBA) has been male. I don't think that's sexism at work. I just don't think we have ever seen a woman over seven feet tall with massive upper body strength, enormous leaping ability, and outstanding athleticism. But that obviously doesn't mean that all men are taller, stronger and better jumpers than all women. Of course not.

In my view the same thing applies in more subtle areas. As best as I can tell, men tend to be more dominant in "the world out there." They will usually be the first to explore, conquer, invent, or discover some new area in the external world, separate from human social connections.

(At this point I tried several times to give equal time to the ways in which women, statistically, dominate. I failed. Everything I thought to say was junk. My own understanding was inadequate. Perhaps you understand this and can explain it.)

Where we (men and women) often fall short is in distinguishing statistical group differences from individual differences. Like my boss on that equipment repair job, just because most men have stronger upper bodies doesn't mean they all do, nor does it mean that all women have weaker upper bodies. Unless one is looking for the handful of most dominant humans on the planet in some regard (such as NBA centers) one had best actually consider the individual.

This applies to forum presence as well. The majority of threads have a "male" spirit to them, and in such threads, both men and women will have to be more aware than they usually are to avoid expecting the posts of males to be more dominant than the posts of females.

Our minds, being of modest capacity, are always working to simplify, categorize and find similarities. It takes a shift from the usual consciousness to interact with other posters as they individually are, without polluting that interaction with our (often quite reasonable) awareness of common group statistical variations.

P.S. I wrote above "It takes a shift from the usual consciousness to interact with other posters as they individually are". That's not quite accurate. The hope is that we can interact with each other on higher levels of awareness, where the usual gender stereotypes (whether legitimate on a statistical group basis or not) do not apply.

[Sierra]

Sierra quivering in her boots damn I'm gonna get clobbered lol!
Hopefully not too bad :o.

<snip>

In my view the same thing applies in more subtle areas. As best as I can tell, men tend to be more dominant in "the world out there." They will usually be the first to explore, conquer, invent, or discover some new area in the external world, separate from human social connections.

(At this point I tried several times to give equal time to the ways in which women, statistically, dominate. I failed. Everything I thought to say was junk. My own understanding was inadequate. Perhaps you understand this and can explain it.)

<snip>


How interesting. The Deaf/deaf BBs were statistically dominated by women. Taking care of the deaf kids was a woman’s task. There was one lovely father from Utah but for the most part, women.

I don’t think the statistical group basis is applicable to what I am attempting to describe. The silence you experience as you attempt to describe the ways in which women statistically dominate is a closer hit. All the things men were allowed to do

“… usually be the first to explore, conquer, invent, or discover some new area in the external world, separate from human social connections.”

Those are the events recorded in patriarchal human time. These events have been described and are easy to list. Women have not been allowed for the most part to BE separate from human social connections. Women have been enslaved to human social connections.

My generation is the first to be able to have sex with birth control. Freedom. And witness the almost vicious desire to strip us of that freedom by the legal, educational and religious systems from those who merely want the choice of having a family to be their own choice in their own time. This has nothing to do with statistical dominance.

You draw a blank when you attempt to describe where women are dominant because where women dominate is hidden from men by their own statistically speaking significant historical disinterest that continues pretty much to the present day in human social connections to which they have been severely TRAINED to ignore usually by their own ancestral living male line. I also don't see most women as wanting to dominate or live and work in a culture where one must be dominated or dominate. We also haven't been allowed to dominate. A Nunnery is always ruled by a male priest at the top. Maybe that is why you can't think of anything ... I don't know. I get confused with this dominance because I can't stand competition and the only kind I'll do is when I compete against myself for better character, faster soul response, more patience when my husband is Mr. GrumpyPants lol.



This applies to forum presence as well. The majority of threads have a "male" spirit to them, and in such threads, both men and women will have to be more aware than they usually are to avoid expecting the posts of males to be more dominant than the posts of females.

Snip

The hope is that we can interact with each other on higher levels of awareness, where the usual gender stereotypes (whether legitimate on a statistical group basis or not) do not apply.

Having male dominant threads and being on a higher level of awareness where the usual gender stereotypes do not apply lol. Let me apologize, grovel, beat my breast and strew ashes on my head while muttering mea culpa if I have come off as a male basher. It never occurred to me I would be viewed as stereotyping or lumping men into categories. No stereotyping here you are all so very very different lmao. I adore men. However I consider all men real men and I do not say that in reverential tones with heaving bosom. Ugh. Sorry, thread posting crossover. I’m bleary eyed.

This is what I meant: It was an experience in contrast, where on the one hand I could post knowing my words were just as important as anyone else’s and on the other hand, noticing I didn’t feel that way here. The contrast came to life from reading Lucia’s book. (I think that was the trigger.) I noticed oh, I’m more intimidated here than there, why? What am I feeling and where is it coming from?

I think because the Deaf/deaf BBs were dominated by women I felt safer there than I do here. I think that is the reason. I also think the female culture does not play hard ball as the male culture does. Sorry Paul introducing new material on you here ... Also, the deaf/Deaf BBs women were on a quest, they had no time to tolerate crap, they had to get their kids language before it was too late. The excessive aggressive dominance games that were played here recently would not have flown over there.



“This applies to forum presence as well. The majority of threads have a "male" spirit to them, and in such threads, both men and women will have to be more aware than they usually are to avoid expecting the posts of males to be more dominant than the posts of females.”

Why do you say the majority of threads have a “male” spirit? Is the population of Avalon Forum membership significantly skewed toward the male?

If the majority of threads have a “male” sprit to them (I have to go look at them and see what you mean... more scientific? Less soft and squishy? LOL!), then we would expect statistically speaking the posts of males to be more dominant both in quantity and in quality, yes? If there are 100 horses and 2 cows in the pasture, there is going to be more manure than cow pies. Doesn’t mean the cow pies are not welcome does it? I want the cow pies to be welcome too lol.

I think the most important thing you said is, "...One had best actually consider the individual." I'm hearing you say you think I have not been seeing the posters as individuals. I do but that is not something one can actually PROOOOVE is it lol.

Nice discussion :) This is way too long. My apologies. Couldn't figure out where to cut.

Regards, Sierra wiped and off to bed

[ThePythonicCow]

"...One had best actually consider the individual." I'm hearing you say you think I have not been seeing the posters as individuals.
I doubt that that was what I was thinking. If I had been thinking you were deficient in that way, I might well have denied such to myself and then put in a disclaimer that I was not thinking that (my brain can be a bit twisty on such matters.)

The "One" in "One had best ..." was either the generic human, striving to rise above these lower categories, or perhaps myself.


You draw a blank when you attempt to describe where women are dominant because where women dominate is hidden from men by their own statistically speaking significant historical disinterest that continues pretty much to the present day in human social connections to which they have been severely TRAINED to ignore usually by their own ancestral living male line.
I doubt that it is -just- training. This sounds like the well trod nature vs nuture debate. I tend towards the position that there is more nature involved in determining our temperaments than is popularly accepted. But then that bleeds over into the question of free will, and that gets more subtle than I know how to explain, even to myself.

However, in any case, I would agree (if this is what you were saying) that at one mundane but rather dominant level of our awareness, men are more focused on the external "other" worlds and women more focused on the connected social world.

The more we each move into other "higher" ways of relating, what some would call more spiritual, the less the gender differences of the currently dominant mundane level will matter.


they had to get their kids language before it was too late
I hope you had some success in that regard.

[motherlove]

I agree with your insight there is a lot wisdom in your words sepia. Thank you for posting them.

[161803398]

Ive rarely been in an environment where people didn't listen to everything I say...except when my car breaks down....then I'm screwed!!! But I really don't know anything about cars. It's not my area. I'm sure there are lots of men in the same position. It appears to me that about half of the men I have met in my life had their mother as a dominant figure in their life. The other half had dad. I think they carry this through their lives and the men that listened to mom will be more inclined to listen to women than men. I guess those are the men I have the most contact with and I don't tend to keep in contact with the other ones --- except maybe on these forums. However, I think there are some men who are more balanced and have ears for both mom and dad. I did once meet a woman who was the type that would only listen to dad. I found it helped to speak in a deeper voice to her. Some of it could be vibration.

Older sisters can make a big difference also.

Of course, there are many people who don't listen to anyone but themselves.

[Sierra]

Let me caveat here before I continue the conversation with you Paul :) For those reading this posting, Lucia Rene’s book is NOT a feminist book, it is a SPIRITUAL book. You might get the wrong impression from listening to me wabbit on about the darkness between man and woman so a pound of salt in hand as I drop down to the 3rd level for this discussion:

Let me also caveat:
I believe in reincarnation
I believe we ALL have been the raper/rapee
I believe we are ALL equally innocent/guilty in the duality
I believe we ALL need to be able to bring this topic out in the open and discharge the karmic entanglement around the subject



"...One had best actually consider the individual." I'm hearing you say you think I have not been seeing the posters as individuals.
I doubt that that was what I was thinking. If I had been thinking you were deficient in that way, I might well have denied such to myself and then put in a disclaimer that I was not thinking that (my brain can be a bit twisty on such matters.)
Wish I had a wry grin icon here, been there done that ... this is a rawther difficult subject to be conducted on a public forum no less which does add another dimension of weirdness.


You draw a blank when you attempt to describe where women are dominant because where women dominate is hidden from men by their own statistically speaking significant historical disinterest that continues pretty much to the present day in human social connections to which they have been severely TRAINED to ignore usually by their own ancestral living male line.


I doubt that it is -just- training. This sounds like the well trod nature vs nuture debate. I tend towards the position that there is more nature involved in determining our temperaments than is popularly accepted. But then that bleeds over into the question of free will, and that gets more subtle than I know how to explain, even to myself.


I respectfully disagree here Paul. I think saying it is nature is a copout. I truly hope and pray it is a copout. I think the end result of what we're seeing is too awful to be blamed on nature and I refuse to see a reality where it is nature. Have you ever read a book (taking a deep breath here) called "Transforming a Rape Culture"? If you have, kudos to you and it should be required reading in public schools. And no I am not well read on the subject… I was only able to read the first chapter before I had to close the book and put it away, permanently. At that point in time (1983) I did not know how to walk on the dark side.

I can’t find my copy of the book but Amazon reviews say:

"The contributors to this invaluable sourcebook share the conviction that rape is epidemic because our society encourages male aggression and tacitly or overtly supports violence against women. Cumulatively, these 34 essays <snip> situate rape on a continuum extending from sexist language to pornography, sexual harassment in schools and the workplace, wife battering and date and marital rape."


The Amazon review says about the one chapter I was able to read before closing the book:


"Andrea Dworkin's famous `I Want a Twenty-Four Hour Truce' opens the collection: It's a 1983 speech to a “men's movement'' seminar in which Dworkin passionately challenges men to begin to shun and punish each other for the act of rape."

We might now add what we have learned since 1983: That same continuum extends to the men, women and children subjected to rape, torture and murder by TPTB who consider these violent acts tools of the trade to force the planetary population to be subservient and silent.

We haven’t gotten that far have we?



However, in any case, I would agree (if this is what you were saying) that at one mundane but rather dominant level of our awareness, men are more focused on the external "other" worlds and women more focused on the connected social world.


Well... we haven’t gotten that far have we?



The more we each move into other "higher" ways of relating, what some would call more spiritual, the less the gender differences of the currently dominant mundane level will matter.


Yes. (Fiercely Squashing Paul in an Avalonian Bear Hug) It is my intent that we do it do it do it.


they had to get their kids language before it was too late


I hope you had some success in that regard.

Er … I wuz the deafie, not the momma lol! But those mommas followed me around like baby duckies because they knew they had four years to get language into their child before the tabula rasa developmental stage ended. Because I was a lower case deafie, raised in a hearing culture, able to talk to normals, (that’s you sweetie) and independently support myself in a hearing world. Eventually the boards were hijacked by the AVers (Auditory Verbal therapy): more fantasy nonsense, devote the children's educational hours to lipreading and elocution (oh but who cares if they come off like bloody ignorant idiots as long as they sound like NORMAL bloody ignorant idiots) and I left. Low expectations, we all know what they do...

:frusty: :frusty: :frusty:

Paul: I synchronistically wrote on this subject in a PM last night and feel free to delete the block below if it is inappropriate for this posting (including this paragraph), I do NOT want to hijack Rene's book thread. I'm putting it out there because you asked and it was already written lol, but maybe it should be for your perusal only. I feel guilty enough already wandering this far afield into carbon based reality ...

Begin Block:
I was born deaf in the fifties so getting language into me was difficult. Getting me to talk was worse. Mother's options were to send me away to a Deaf Culture boarding school or throw me off the deep end in the Hearing Culture public school system, which is what she chose to do, because it was the only option that offered me a chance to grow up to be independent as well as allow me to live at home with my family. When I was six years old she walked me down to the library and got me a library card. I was a book worm at a very early age and lived in libraries.

I didn't really learn to use expressive language myself until the deaf bulletin boards at 40. Lip reading is so difficult I didn't really peak on my lip reading skills until I was 38 (Lip reading is heavily dependent on context and the context of life is brand new to children). I didn't really learn I was deaf until I talked to other deaf/Deaf people lol. When I got on the forum, communication was suddenly easy. The Deaf/deaf BBs were a revelation to me. A revelation of what it meant to be deaf, a revelation of what it meant to be the parent of a Deaf or deaf child. And apparently I was a revelation to them, an independent adult deafie making it in a hearing culture. I'm trying to remember if I was the only one on the site.

One of my sister’s son is autistic and one day when he was four or five she called me up and said, "Mother had a handicapped child." I said, "Yes, I know.". Silence. She said, "Mother had a developmentally handicapped child.". Puzzled, I said, "Yes, I know.". Silence. "No you don't.", she said. "What are you talking about?" I said. Incomprehension continued.

It was not until I made friends with a Deaf Culture ASL woman who taught me what it meant to be lower case deaf in a hearing culture, did I realize how right my sister was, and what a dragon lady my mother was and how lucky and fortunate I was to have that hellish childhood growing up in the public school system in a hearing culture. Hellish. I don't remember this but Mother says I'd come home from public school every day, slam the front the door, sit down on the floor and burst into tears. :baby: The only thing she could do with me was dump me into the bathtub with a glass of orange juice... lol

I threw myself into being there for my sister and gradually horrifically realized my sister was in the same boat my mother had been, medieval doctors, medieval schools, medieval understanding of how to help the developmentally challenged. She had a hard life with a violent autistic with an IQ of fifty, who today can read, write, do math, dress himself, do simple chores and sort of talk, but she did it herself and with huge blocks thrown in her way by the system of the TPTB. Did you know the largest by far big budget ticket item in public school systems is the money set aside for lawsuits with the parents of developmentally challenged children? It is so shameful what goes on.
End Block.

Thank you Paul, you rock in this sort of quiet dispassionate way that allows me to think without concern for the reaction. Oh this is why you are a mod! :doh:

I hope you know I am respecting you more and more as I listen to you.

Sierra

[ThePythonicCow]

For those reading this posting, Lucia Rene’s book is NOT a feminist book, it is a SPIRITUAL book.
My comments have likely strayed enough from this thread's focus that I should let this thread get back on track. I have more experience with feminists than with the spiritual, and that shows.

I respectfully disagree here Paul. I think saying it is nature is a copout.I was not saying nature instead of nuture. I was thinking both, in a more subtle way than the usual dichotomy reflects. But that would be going further astray where I just decided I shouldn't.

I wuz the deafie, not the momma lol!
Well my congratulations then to your mother. She surely succeeded well in "getting you language."

Thank-you for your background on yourself. I enjoyed reading it. If some mod removes it for being off topic, it will have to be some other mod than myself.

Thank-you also for helping your sister and her child, and for the kind words. I got to be a mod because I started writing good help threads on how to use the forum ... but that would be another detour from this thread's topic.

[White Phoenix]

I thoroughly enjoyed watching this interview! It felt just as engaging as previous videos, but in a different way. The dialogue between Lucia and Bill really seemed to mirror and embody the essence of what 'Unplugging The Patriarchy' sets forth as our inevitable future - Both male and female intelli-GENTLY engaged in equal measure. Loved it, great work!

[Leila]

Personally this is the best video from Avalon project that I've seen so far, very inspiring, with the open heart (from both men and women) love, and compassion.
Thank you Bill, great work and hope to see a further interview with Lucia René again!

[Armen]

Hi there,

I'm very new to this forum, but I remember listening to the interview with Lucia, and wishing that I could chime in on a discussion on this very topic. Sierra, I've been really enjoying your posts, especially as it feels to me that you are trying to work through something, while also advocating for your experiences. It's kind of like a miner who is sifting through the silt in search of gold. I say this, because I can relate to how you feel in this sense. I have so many strong emotions and thoughts around the subject of how men and women are treating each other, and while I feel a need to advocate for my experience, I am also trying to understand how to incorporate other people's experiences to come to a mutual place of harmony and understanding.

I'm really interested in the points that you are bringing up Sierra, and the discussions that have resulted. As a man, I feel compelled to offer another perspective. You see, I have always been surrounded by women. I was raised by my mom, and it just so happened that most of the activities and carreers I was interested in were totally dominated by women. At least in my experience. In virtually every circle or community I have been, women are very outspoken and powerful, and men are very soft spoken, kind of mousy, and very much on the periphery. Most of my bosses, teachers, and supervisors have been women.

Most of my interests in life have taken me in a spiritual and contemplative direction, mostyly through the body. That means, I am a dancer. I have always been interested in social work, and art forms that are centered around the body, or bodily awareness. In my experience, women very much dominate those fields.

On a quick tangent, I once had a very interesting experience. I went to an event for 3-4 days in the woods where we danced from midnight to dawn around a fire every night. It was an incredibly spiritual experience, but very sensual and nurturing. Not in the sense that we were all holding hands and stroking each other. More like it was just about letting go, and letting a sense of irrational expression take over. We just melted into a deep flow of experience that seemed to have its own intelligence. It was a very sensual experience which allowed for very deep connections, and that's what was so nurturing. It was rich, and powerful, and raw, and creative. This group was mostly dominated by women.

Immediately after, I went to a 10 day silent retreat, where we meditated a total of 12 hours a day, every day, from 4 am to 9pm (with little breaks). The hours were exactly opposite. This was also a very spiritual and profuound experience, but in a very opposite way than the dance event. We were not allowed to look at each other, or talk to each other. Even though we were a group, it was about remaining focused inwardly. But most importantly, it was about cultivating equanimity. There was no responding to, or expressing sensation. There was only observing the changing nature of experience, no matter what. Whether pleassurable or painful. Frightening or comforting, we were there to remain detached and observant. It felt very much like a place where you have to face the enormity of life by yourself. No one will help you. There is no comfort or help. You have to do it on your own. The only support you get, is the insistence to continue to face whatever is in front of you, however painful or pleasant.

When I was done, I reflected on both those experiences, and I concluded that I had come to feel the love of the mother at the dance event. It was all about expression, and body, and spirituality, and creation, and nurture, and sensuality. It was about being alive, as a human being, on earth. It was about sharing the joys and burdens of pain and pleassure together.
It was about pure experience.

Then there was the love of the father at the meditation retreat which very much felt like this. You are alone in the world. The world will throw a lot at you, and you have to learn to deal with it by yourself. You have to cultivate the ability to allow pain and pleassure to whip past you while you remain neutral and in control. You have to come to see that you are not the experiences that you are experiencing, but rather a more subtle, refined vapor, or consciousness that lives beyond the body, and the earth.

Those were my experiences. In my life I have come to see that both those states have their importance and their place. There are times when you have to control yourself, and be able to deal with whatever is coming your way while remaining level headed and in control of yourself. Other times, it's extremely important to let go and just experience. Whe I think back on the influence my mother and father had on me, it was very similar. My mom helped me by making things ok, and feeling with/for me. My dad helped me by pushing me to deal with life on my own, no matter how hard it seemed.

But back to my original point, I have seen first hand how oppressive women can be towards men as well. It's different. Women don't tend to resort to physical violence. But, I have seen how women exclude men, and leverage power by a man's desire to be included. In the circles that I have frequented, women are at the core of what builds community. Without them, there really is no community. They tend to be exceptionally gifted in organizing and developing a sense of cohesion among people. I ascribe this to the ability to experience, as opposed to reflecting and contemplating meaning, which is something I see men doing a lot. Women, in my experience, flood the social body with richness, vitality, and creativity. Men seem to be good at providing frameworks and boundaries, but really fall short when it comes to filling those containers with substance and experience. Women seem to be really good at enlivening a social body, but struggle to provide a level of containment (that doesn't mean women aren't ingenious at organizing, and men aren't capable of providing substance).

When I see women getting together, they laugh, and play, and cry, and create, and experience. It feels very sensual (in terms of the senses), rich, and chaotic. When I see men get together, they tend to discuss the meaning of things. It feels dense, pointed, and sparse. When I've seen women in a social space where men outnumber them and are dominating the activities, I see women often seem to hit a point where the intensive discussion about meaning starts to become stifling and frustrating. Almost like a fish that has no water. When I observe men who are in a social envrionment where women outnumber them and dominate the social space, I see the men feeling very disoriented, almost afraid, because they don't know how to let go and just surrender to experience. I see men often looking on on the periphery with almost envy, because they can't just let go. Even if they were capable of it, which many men are, just like many women are capable of debating meaning, they would quickly feel lost. In my experience, women guide men into the realm of experience. Men take their cues from women. If they barge in to that space uninvited, that can be seen as very threatening. Of course, I am speaking from a very hetero-normative perspective.

All this to say, that my experience as a man growing up in the feminist movement was as follows. I came to be ashamed of myself and my manhood. The only messages I received, were that men are evil, and pigs. So I modeled myself after what I thought women wanted. A soft spoken, gentle, a-sexual, good friend. That, as you might be able to imagine, was desastrous for me. I was completely ignored. It took me years to figure out that the things the women around me were saying they were looking for, were actually not entirely true. Now, I have done a lot of asking, and interviewing, and it turns out that there are a huge number of men out there who are having the same experience. They feel the pressure of needing to be strong, but not being allowed to be strong because it is quickly perceived as an act of colonization. They are utterly confused, and deeply ashamed of their masculinty.

I think we can agree that this is a very complex issue, and what i'm presenting here is only one narrow thread of many, but if we put these threads together, I believe we can see how it all intertwines into the rope that we are all hanging ourselves by. Part of the equation, is that the reason so many men use pornography, is because they are totally excluded and ignored by women, and prevented from having any kind of contact with women. Again, I am speaking from the narrow perspective of my experience. But in my world, women choose. A man can show his interest, but women have the final decision making vote. Many men go unchosen, and so the only way they can experience sensuality, is through porn, or prostitution of some kind. I don't even think it's about sex. It's about going outside of the realm of meaning, and entering into the realm of expression and experience. I know the difference. I've experienced both. Experience is where life is. Meaning and reflection help hold things together. To be condemned to a life of contemplaitng meaning without experiencing, is what I consider a life of solitary confinement. Something that I believe is well documented as being detrimental to a human beings life. I see how many men live in this state. Porn is the only way they can, for a moment, feel the realm of sensuality and experience.

Part of it, is that we've done away with the very institutions that were designed to help men get into their bodies. That is what I believe the "Unplugging of the Patriarchy" is all about. It's about recognizing that women have these incredible powers to bring men into the thick of life, as opposed to standing on the sidelines building structures and mechanisms that frame life. When we allow for those intstitutions to re-emerge, men can be supported in rediscovering themselves as sensual experiencers. What prostitues and porn stars mimmick, are their sacred counterparts. People who's function it is to teach another human being how to safely navigate the incredibly powerful realm of experience. In my mind, there's no question. We've stripped all of our importan social archetypes of their inherent substance, and created fast food versions of their original, nutrient rich counterparts.

So I see men working really hard to achieve some status, so that they will be chosen or noticed by women. As women are becoming more and more emancipated, and taking over more and more carreer fields, this is becoming harder and harder for men to do. Regardless, the reason men strive for status, is so that they will be noticed and chosen by a woman.

I guess what I am trying to say, is that in my experience, and for the entirety of my lifetime, women have always dominated and been on top. I just want to add that this perspective also exists. That doesn't diminish the struggles that women still have, and the abuses that women have faced at the hands of men. I am for the true expression of what women are, and are capable of. Seeing a women in her full glory is very thrilling to me, and I feel an enormous sense of compassion for the oppression and marginalizaton that women have had to endure. All I am saying, is that as a man who has grown up in a feminist clmate, I see that many women, in their attempts to gain equality, have actually ended up battering and oppressing the men who love them, and whom they love. My life can be defined by the experience of marginalization and oppression on many levels. And, I can say that many of the people who have oppressed me the most were women. Most of them had no idea they were doing it. It still remains a subject of controversy. I have talked with many women about this, and surprisingly, a lot of women agree with me on this point.

I think what we share is the experience of oppression and shame. The more I seek to understand what's goin on, the more clearly I understand that we are all being abused, because we live in a social psyche that's built on abuse. In order for one to have liberty, the other has to be subjugated. The way we are prevented from speaking out, is through shame. I believe that all of us are being pressured to be ashamed of ourselves in some way or another. The trick, I think, is to be able to speak up and describe the ways in which we are experiencing oppression, to learn how to develop understanding and compassion for each other's suffering, and to cultivate a set of agreements that lead to a sense of anatomical harmony/alignment. I do believe we can do that, only by opening up to each other earnestly and honestly. Most women I've talked to do not want to see men oppressed (some do). Most men I know don't want to see women oppressed. What that means, and how to create that situation is really a matter of clarity, communication, and synthesis.

Those are my thoughts for now. I'm sure I'll have more. I am very interested in this discussion, and grateful that this topic is being approached here. Thank you for hearing me...

[MargueriteBee]

WOW! I cried thru the whole thing, it is very healing.


------

This video embedded below (also posted by Astrid at post #160 on the previous page) comes from the beautiful Ninja Nun. (See her thread here (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?12082-A-message-from-a-Nun-about-the-Charles-material)...)




Hi Bill,
In don't know if you've seen this one yet. It follows along with Unplugging the Patriarchy and is a new start, a beginning of another way for our planet. Looks like there really are a few good men, after all, and we know a few of them ourselves... :) Sr._

http://youtube.com/watch?v=K_uRIMUBnvw


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K_uRIMUBnvw

[Tahi]

I agree Armen, had the same conversation with my famz 2 weeks ago.

If it wasn't my Mother lookin after me it was an Auntie.... Sisters!

[Armen]

Tahi,

would love to hear some of your experiences. If you feel comfortable sharing here that would be great, or you can PM me.

[Callista]

I 'discovered' this interview a couple of days ago and loved it. It was recorded in 2011 but the message is so relevant for today that I want to share it. Bill's talents as an interviewer come through loud and clear and I for one would love to see him do some more!!


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e4vPyClAHqs

Uploaded on Mar 27, 2011
This new video, with author, teacher, mystic, and woman's activist Lucia René, is an intriguing discussion about the role of women - and men - in today's world: essentially an esoteric perspective on what could be called the depth psychology of power.

Lucia states that the days of the Patriarchy - which has been in command on Planet Earth for thousands of years - are coming to an end. Women are now beginning to stand in their own power... and with it, the role of men is being redefined.

Whatever gender you are, this is a timely and deeply interesting interview. Lucia's book is an important one for our changing times, and as a man - apologizing for the abusive attitudes and actions of many of my fellow men for countless generations - I'm delighted to be giving it the prominence it deserves.

http://unplugfromthepatriarchy.com

[Callista]

Thank you to mods for moving this thread - I should have checked before posting - but I'm glad its got a :bump: because its well worth reviewing.

much love

Callista