United People Action Ideas [Archive] - The Project Avalon Community Forum

Revere

2nd April 2011, 16:31

As promised I said I would throw an idea on the table to get this started. OK, here is the idea I came across and I think many of you will know of it already. It is not my idea but it is something we can each accomplish to various degrees. How effective will it be? Well, the more who participate the more results it will generate. This is why they call us the “masses” and fear us acting in unity.

The “powers that be” feed off of us in various ways. But, they are really hooked on our money. They have built massive corporations in many industries in the “to big to fail” model (“so they think”) which have massive run rates or cash burn requirements.

These organizations siphon our money away from our micro-economies by our patronage into their profits and spend those monies outside of our local communities. It is leveraged by them into different markets to support their continued growth and profitability by penetrating new markets and perpetuating this cycle. The net affect diminishes our local economies and builds their power base. Yes, it is slightly more complicated than that but, how much more complicate is it really? If we as individuals, groups, societies etc., actively concentrate on spending and investing our cash, our savings, our investments and resources on private local firms and organizations we put a serious cramp on them and energize our local “flat” economies and societies. It will not take much to make them feel the pain once something like this grows. Their business models are built on growth quarter over quarter. Even just a flat quarter for them is a crisis. Imagine with their burn rates what a net reduction quarter over quarter will do.

We can make a difference. Many of you knew right away that this is Catherine Austin Fitts idea. Some may not like or trust her, since she was a brief member of Bush senior’s administration, but I like the idea for many reasons. Catherine has no love loss for the government or the Bush’s as far as I can tell.

I am keeping this post short. We can go into all the details of how to do this later and we can detail all the benefits later. Yes, there are always some negatives but, I think they are outweighed by the positives.

Alright, let’s put some more ideas on the table. If you hate anyone’s ideas please show some class and patience with each other. If you have something constructive to add please add it and that will be even better.

Peace,

-R-
:behindsofa:

Chicodoodoo

2nd April 2011, 17:27

The “powers that be” feed off of us in various ways. But, they are really hooked on our money.

No, you've got it backwards. We are hooked on their money. Money is a tool that they use to control our behavior. You cannot hurt them using money. They know that. Why would they deliberately crash entire economies if money could hurt them? Why destroy the dollar if money could hurt them? I would argue that this plan by Catherine Fitts is just another way to keep the masses distracted, to keep them deluded that they are effectively fighting back, and to perpetuate the "divide and conquer" strategy.

What they are really hooked on is not our money, but our cooperation. Like the black slaves of the South, we labor for our masters, and as long as we work hard, they reward us with a little comfort and a few trinkets. But the masters reap the real rewards of our labors.

As long as we accept their money in any way, they own us. If we refuse to accept their money, they will hire other people to “correct” us. That's part of the reason for keeping us divided -- to ensure that there are always people that can be bought.

I wish I was wrong, and that we really could use money against them, but the truth is that they only care about the control their money brings them, not the money itself. If we could take away their power to create money out of thin air, ideas like the Fitts plan might have an impact, but they aren't about to let that power slip away.

The creation of money out of thin air is the real source of their power. That, combined with our training and willingness to do anything for money, allows them to rule over us.

dukes4monny

2nd April 2011, 17:46

As Chicodoodoo says, it's their money and they know that it's totally worthless.
You could of course print your own money, but you would need to get lots of people to adopt it more or less straight away: farmers etc., we will still need to eat. I'm sure that this would very soon be clamped down on in some way or another.

The system that we live under has been constructed over many centuries, you aren't going to change this overnight, in fact it will probably take several centuries to totally eradicate it.

Think of the film 'Independence Day', they injected a software virus into their defence system and the system crashed and left them wide open. Now I'm not suggesting that we wait until they have disclosure and we shoot down a UFO......but, if we are to defeat them we need to be smart, we need to 'infect' their protection system.
They must have guards that protect them etc..........just a thought.

Revere

2nd April 2011, 18:06

We are all welcomed to an opinion but I respectively disagree that we cannot use money to hurt them. I believe we can use the current system as a start against our situation. Yes, I also agree we will need to move away from this paradigm at a later date. Money is the basis of their power and they must have it to fuel many aspects of their control.

Chicodoodoo

No, you've got it backwards. We are hooked on their money. Money is a tool that they use to control our behavior. You cannot hurt them using money. They know that. Why would they deliberately crash entire economies if money could hurt them? Why destroy the dollar if money could hurt them? I would argue that this plan by Catherine Fitts is just another way to keep the masses distracted, to keep them deluded that they are effectively fighting back, and to perpetuate the "divide and conquer" strategy.

I would contend all the “crashing” actions mentioned above, and many others, are used to generate more money for them. Money = control for them at many levels. Crashes are manufactured and always create the biggest opportunities for them to gain more wealth! Especially, when they have pre-knowledge of what they are doing. There is always a counter play to make a lot! Hurting their cash flow is definitely a pebble in their shoe.

I do agree that this is not a "perfect Idea" but a beginning action to affect them to a certain degree. Other, action at the right times will also need to be as they present benefits to us. I wish that there was one silver bullet idea to change everything but I do not have it.

OK, this is not your cup of tea; I disagree but, let’s keep moving forward with other ideas. Do you have one...or anyone? We are brainstorming no need to flog one idea to death quite yet. Let’s see what we can come up with. The best ideas in the end will rise up above the options, I hope. That is if we can find it. Next!

Peace,

-R-

skippy

2nd April 2011, 18:41

Let’s see what we can come up with. The best ideas in the end will rise up above the options, I hope. That is if we can find it. Next!

I propose an interview by Bill Ryan with Chicodoodoo on the Declaration of the United People. Regarding the Declaration as-is, I think it would be a good thing to integrate some ancient Aboriginal / native American Indian wisdom. We should go beyond ego, self-interest, freedom and basic rights to establish a truly new kind of society. As stated by Darelle Butler, an American Indian, in a video posted by Dukes: responsibility is key. This point is missing IMHO in the Declaration. Please Dukes or Hawkind, can you phrase these ancients virtues in one or two lines to put it at the core of our new model? How can we capture the Human Being 2.0 spirit and put it as a guiding principal at the top of the Declaration?

Best, Skip.

Revere

2nd April 2011, 21:22

Skippy

I propose an interview by Bill Ryan with Chicodoodoo on the Declaration of the United People. Regarding the Declaration as-is, I think it would be a good thing to integrate some ancient Aboriginal / native American Indian wisdom. We should go beyond ego, self-interest, freedom and basic rights to establish a truly new kind of society.

Sounds interesting reach out to Bill and see where he may be with that thought. A fresh view point is always welcomed.

Peace,
-R-

Chicodoodoo

2nd April 2011, 21:33

Hurting their cash flow is definitely a pebble in their shoe.

The crashes are not designed to make more money for them. They can already create all the money they want, as the last 900 billion dollar bank bail-out demonstrated. The crashes are designed to make us more dependent on them, effectively giving them even greater control.

No matter what “good” idea we come up with, it cannot work unless the people are united and organized. Yes, people can unite and organize around an idea, but if the idea can be discredited, the unity and organization fall apart. That’s why I decided the only idea that has half a chance of succeeding is to unite and organize around the idea of uniting and organizing! Those that oppose the majority of the human race succeed because they are united and organized. How can they successfully discredit the very idea that is the basis of their own power?

So what I’m saying is that we already have the actionable idea – unite and organize. We don’t need to do anything that will confront the PTB or “hurt” them. Doing that just makes us a target of their oppressive power. All we need to do is unite and organize. Once we are united and organized, we can take whatever actions we want, because nothing will have the power to stand in our way.

How do we get humanity to unite and organize? First, we show humanity the need to do so, and that is the purpose of the Declaration. That’s the easy part, because everyone already has a gut feeling that “we” need to do something. The next logical step is to build the framework, the constitution or blueprint, that will define the organization of united people and give it an operational structure. So we do need to do something “actionable”. We need to build that organization.

dukes4monny

2nd April 2011, 21:38

I don't want to put a dampener on this thread just as it gets going, but I get the feeling already that there is going to be disagreement.
I think that this is because we all have different visions (perceptions) of what the problems actually are, and until we can get a common vision, we are never going to get a consensus.

One of the problems is that each of us is relying on our 'intellect' to create our vision, but, our intellects are actually 'memories' that are given to us (at school / college / university / films etc.), and we will always defend them as though they are ours. We have someone else's visions, spooky huh.

May I propose what could be an interesting Avalon group experiment? It could be part of this thread, or maybe a separate thread, and it would be better if we can get as many people as possible to join in.
In order to obtain the same vision, I believe that we all need the same education. So, what I propose is that we each nominate a book or film or article that has been a real influence on you waking up or has guided your current thinking. We all then vote on which book / film or article that we will collectively watch /read , and we could spend some time afterwards discussing / absorbing this before moving on to the next one.
It would be preferable if the book / film is easily available on-line at little or no cost.

It would then be interesting to come back to this thread and continue discussing this very important topic.
Sorry Revere, I don't mean to hijack your thread, but now it's started, we really need it to succeed.

Hervé

2nd April 2011, 22:04

The creation of money out of thin air is the real source of their power. That, combined with our training and willingness to do anything for money, allows them to rule over us.

Agree with that one. If you can think Amish and similar communities, when you need a barn... two days later: "There you go!" ...Brand new barn. Any $/₤/€ involved? Nop, only work and exchange.

So, as I wrote in another thread:

When living in this 3D thing and abiding by the laws of a 3D universe: Give his s*** back to Caesar

modwiz

2nd April 2011, 22:09

So we do need to do something “actionable”. We need to build that organization.

I "feel" something "actionable" just a little bit over the event horizon. Once it comes up it will turn from "feel" into something all can see.

Can see and will see are different things though, aren't they?

Revere

3rd April 2011, 00:39

Chico

The crashes are not designed to make more money for them. They can already create all the money they want, as the last 900 billion dollar bank bail-out demonstrated. The crashes are designed to make us more dependent on them; effectively giving them even greater control

Yes, TPTB play their games on many numerous levels and single events often have multiple goals. My friend let's not clog this up with ping pong debate yet. We just see it differently and that's ok. Let us just get as many ideas on the table as possible.

O.K....
1. Chico your idea is roughly to develop tenants of the organization and its infrastructure for the group to be created, function and be ready for action

2. Revere's idea is to flatten out our economic structures for local benefit and to reduce avenues of financial support for the PTB that bubbles up through their various mechanisms’ (Basically get unplugged from their system and re-develop support for local financial and social structures).

3. Duke wants us to suggest a collective common education (books, movies, etc.) library so we can have a common frame of reference to develop ideas from.

4. Skippy wants to get Bill Ryan involved and incorporate some indigenous people's wisdom integrated in to the declaration and/or movement.

(If anyone pleases state or re-state your idea in a way that you feel is most appropriate here at some point so we can keep them together in concise form and bump them forward as we go).

Peace,
-R-

Chicodoodoo

3rd April 2011, 00:59

2. Revere's idea is to flatten out our economic structures for local benefit and to reduce avenues of financial support for the PTB that bubbles up through their various mechanisms’ (Basically get unplugged from their system and re-develop support for local financial and social structures).

By the way, Revere, I didn't want to imply that yours is a bad idea. Sometimes I get so absorbed in the analysis that I forget to be diplomatic.

The basis of your idea is actually a fundamental part of the United People movement. We will indeed develop a social structure that is unplugged from their system, and it will eventually cut off their support by making their system "unfunded", not in money, but in human cooperation. We simply won't participate in their system because we will have our own.

dukes4monny

3rd April 2011, 07:02

Well summarised Revere, thank you.

I have just discovered this free book online: Ascent of Humanity (http://www.ascentofhumanity.com/introduction.php) by Charles Eisenstein which has been 10 years in the writing. My initial impression is that this could be a very interesting read and very relevant to the United People threads.

skippy

3rd April 2011, 09:56

I have just discovered this free book online: Ascent of Humanity (http://www.ascentofhumanity.com/introduction.php) by Charles Eisenstein which has been 10 years in the writing. My initial impression is that this could be a very interesting read and very relevant to the United People threads.

Thank you Duke for having pointed us to this goldmine. The Gift-Gratitude model is something worthwile to consider. I share your impression that this is very relevant to the United People threads. Question: How can we translate this and bring it as a core value into the Declaration? I've no idea where you want to take us with this, but I will read the document, as you recommended.

Best Skip.

buckminster fuller

3rd April 2011, 10:26

dukes4monny

4th April 2011, 07:52

Thank you Duke for having pointed us to this goldmine. The Gift-Gratitude model is something worthwile to consider. I share your impression that this is very relevant to the United People threads. Question: How can we translate this and bring it as a core value into the Declaration? I've no idea where you want to take us with this, but I will read the document, as you recommended.

Best Skip.

Sorry for my delayed reply but I'm only on chapter 2 and I am finding it a fascinating, dare I say 'illuminating' read.
One core idea that is jumping out at me, even from the first chapter is 'The concept of Competition must be replaced by the concept of Cooperation'.

I really don't think of me taking us anywhere, there is no ideology involved.
We simply need to realise that we are not separate from one another. This realisation cannot come from words; words are an abstraction. Having said that, words do have their role to play, as they are the signposts which simply point us back to our own innate understanding of Human Unity.

Although I still have a long way to go, for the first time in this life, when I look around me, I don't see friends - neighbours - colleagues - enemies, I now see fellow human beings.
I have realised that although I thought that I was 'awake' I was simply standing and looking at the signposts........

Back to chapter 2 ;)

dukes4monny

5th April 2011, 16:04

I've just finished watching this video by Helena Norberg Hodge about the Ladakh people which Charles mentions in 'Ascent of Humanity'

-7846941319183318053&hl

Alternative link (larger video size): http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7846941319183318053#

It really shows just how quickly a self sufficient society falls apart when 'outside' influences take hold.
All useful information when trying to work out the solution to our current predicament.

Revere

5th April 2011, 20:10

I found the Ladakh’s dissent into a centralized hierarchical economy and the loss of their flat agrarian social structure very informative. Once it began, they continued to fracture into smaller and smaller groups, and their cooperative society, confidence and self worth crumbled. Crime grew, consumerism grew through its false glorification, scarcity increased, competition increased, on and on...until you have the world here and now.

It is a case in itself to flatten out society. I doubt we could or would want to move into their ancient agrarian paradigm but, it makes a case for how impersonal disempowering or hierarchical society really is. All the money, energy, sustenance and power flows right out of their community as it does in ours. I say stop feeding the PTB and their sucking mega-corporate beasts... again.

Peace,

-R-

dukes4monny

5th April 2011, 20:58

I personally am of the opinion (currently) that we do need to get back to a 'flat agrarian social structure', but the purpose of this thread is to look at what actions we can take to solve our predicament.

I say stop feeding the PTB and their sucking mega-corporate beasts... again.

I can understand this sentiment, but it comes across as just a reaction, almost a wanting to simply 'lash out' at something or someone, again understandable. But I also realise that the idea on it's own scares me somewhat. Primarily this is because the 'fairly' stable society we have at the moment could very quickly descend into chaos: survival of the fittest.
Perhaps if you could 'flesh out' the idea a bit more, it wouldn't appear so scary
If this were to successfully bring down the mega-corporate beasts, what is your vision for the new world?
Will we have money - cars - planes - jobs? How would we ensure that a flatter societal structure exists and more importantly, how do we prevent the hierarchical structures re-emerging?

Revere

5th April 2011, 22:46

Dukes,
Mello…Mello brother. Check this link out for more background on the "Flat" idea. It is her idea and I think it is a start. Play the youtube presentation. Here is Katherine Austin Fitts take a look. I contend that the local economic concepts here if widely adopted would help the masses live a better life and re-vitalize a flat society. It will not bring down the PTB but it will open the masses eyes to our power and be a stepping stone to bigger things. Our power lies in two things; one "the masses with our sheer numbers" if we can get enough of the passive ones in western societies to wake up. The second, thing is the power of our consciousness to affect reality. My proposal on that is in our Group section the "Global Intention Group" (GIG). GIG type activities coupled with our consciousness is our true power for change and stopping the PTB. Ofcourse, I am open to knew and more action ideas.

SORRY FIRST LINK STOPPED WORKING. TRY THIS ONE

http://www.wikio.com/video/catherine-austin-fitts-4896299

Peace,
-R-

dukes4monny

6th April 2011, 09:00

An excellent video, thanks. The link didn't work, but I found it on Youtube here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_TKsKF8_8qQ).
Catherine Austin Fitts obviously has a deep understanding of how the crooks in charge have got us to this current position, and I'd suggest that everybody watches this film.
Her analogy of the 'Tapeworm Economy' is inspired.

The local economy idea is definitely a good one. To kind of distil it down to help me fully understand it: we would keep using the existing currency, and essentially create a 'Local Community Banking System' that would be locally funded and would be used for investments within the local community to benefit the local community, is that correct?

I can see that this would indeed have the effect of 'starving the beast' of funds and also help to rebuild local communities so that they can become more independent of national government and hopefully interdependent with other local communities.

I haven't analysed it yet, but does this idea fit in with the existing 'United People Declaration'?

panopticon

6th April 2011, 10:09

G'day Revere,

I think you may find the work of economist Bernard Lietaer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernard_Lietaer) of use. In particular I am thinking of his work on complimentary currencies in The Future of Money (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Future_of_Money:_Beyond_Greed_and_Scarcity).
The LETS (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LETS) are common in Australia as are farm co-operatives.

You may also find of use the Permaculture movements work on community design and what the co-originator of the concept David Holmgren (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Holmgren) refers to as Retrofitting The Suburbs (http://www.raisethehammer.org/article/175).
This information should all be covered in a Permaculture Design Course and most countries have an authorised provider: Community development, food sustainability, site retrofitting, alternative economic models (including Mondrogon worker co-ops and Kibbutz co-ops) not to mention a whole mess of really interesting natural theory like animal incorporation or designing to increase 'edge' and from that harvest size.

A fully developed complimentary currency program for community size projects is Cyclos (http://project.cyclos.org/).

Kind Regards, :yo:
Panopticon

Revere

6th April 2011, 19:16

Duke

The local economy idea is definitely a good one. To kind of distil it down to help me fully understand it: we would keep using the existing currency, and essentially create a 'Local Community Banking System' that would be locally funded and would be used for investments within the local community to benefit the local community, is that correct?

I can see that this would indeed have the effect of 'starving the beast' of funds and also help to rebuild local communities so that they can become more independent of national government and hopefully interdependent with other local communities.

Duke YES!

I believe that this meshes in very well with the United People. This is a great idea that she has and can over time reinvigorate local communities, reduce some of the PTB hand in our pockets, and begin showing the masses that we can wrestle back some control. Small success can be a catalyst for bigger changes that we can leverage with human consciousness.

Really, how do we unplug from the PTB hierarchical society? I believe one step at a time working to roll their control backwards? I think humanities conscious awareness has already put them a bit on the defensive. So, let's push more with direct steps that can begin with the avoidance of the top down economic structures. This is just a place to start as we strive to flatten out our economy and our society. Fitts uses a banking example which is great but, we can start with avoiding patronage of any multinational conglomerate company. Learn who provides what in your economy and support local goods and service providers only. (Does anyone else besides me think that this was possibly what Charles may have had on his mind as well?)

Yes, these are just a baby steps but, they are possible to accomplish in varying degrees by everyone starting now! It's a start and it is action. Flattening our society on a local basis creates and strengthens the cooperation of individuals at a grass roots level. We cannot jump twenty steps ahead with no recognized currency or some enlightened economic and social structures and create a fantastical utopian society. To make such a jump out of our current society, infrastructures and culture would have to be prompted by a disaster natural or manmade and then decades of recovery. No one wants that to happen. The truth as we discussed is that humanity needs to change dramatically on the inside and that process normally takes time. Perhaps this path will help with time and the growing individual awakening that many of us now see. Plus, the PTB will be making their own moves and a strengthened local community will be better enabled to push back.

Peace,
-R-

Revere

6th April 2011, 19:25

Panopticon
G'day Revere,

I think you may find the work of economist Bernard Lietaer of use. In particular I am thinking of his work on complimentary currencies in The Future of Money.
The LETS are common in Australia as are farm co-operatives.

You may also find of use the Permaculture movements work on community design and what the co-originator of the concept David Holmgren refers to as Retrofitting The Suburbs

.:meeting:Thanks as time permits I will take a look. So, it looks like you have some ideas. If possible please share them with us concerning an action item a United People can take besides debate and proclamations, as we are so good at those to date. LOL

Peace,
-R-

Revere

6th April 2011, 19:36

Panopticon,

Actually alternative currency is already being use in some areas of the US... Google Berkshires currency. It is used mostly out of fear of the dollars debt and potential loss as the worlds "reserve" currency. Maybe it is a good idea, I do not know if it is at this point and time.

Peace,
-R-

panopticon

7th April 2011, 01:40

Thanks as time permits I will take a look. So, it looks like you have some ideas. If possible please share them with us concerning an action item a United People can take besides debate and proclamations, as we are so good at those to date. LOL

G'day Revere,
The ideas are not mine. I am a permaculturist and the permaculture movement has had extensive debates (since the 1980's) on this subject.
The work of David Holmgren, in particular his 2002 text 'Permaculture: Principles and Pathways Beyond Sustainability (http://www.holmgren.com.au/frameset.html?http://www.holmgren.com.au/html/Publications/Principles.html)', presents a valuable asset for any redesign of society.
The extensive 1988 tome 'Permaculture: A Designer's Manual (http://www.tagari.com/bills_journal)' by Bill Mollison (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Mollison) (the most recognised face (http://www.abc.net.au/rural/legends/stories/4_1.htm) of the Permaculture movement) also includes many practical ideas.

I am not trying to 'proclaim'. I have limited time available and your choice of words infer more meaning on my actions than occurred.
I was merely pointing out that a similar discussion within the Permaculture movement is an ongoing one that was started over 30 years ago. I thought some valuable points could be gathered from this previously extensive discursive process and its results.

Kind Regards, :yo:
Panopticon

panopticon

7th April 2011, 02:14

Actually alternative currency is already being use in some areas of the US... Google Berkshires currency. It is used mostly out of fear of the dollars debt and potential loss as the worlds "reserve" currency.

G'day Revere,

I agree completely with your statement.
I have stated previously within this forum that the only use, in my opinion, for a complimentary currency is as a transitional technique.
People are used to not trusting each other. This is part of the socialisation process (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialization) (sometimes referred to as 'conditioning') and assists in the continuation and development of panopticism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panopticism). The lack of trust developed, to some extent, as a result of the industrial revolution (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Industrial_Revolution) and a movement from gemeinschaft to gesellschaft (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gemeinschaft_and_Gesellschaft). This lack of trust within modern westernised societies is the basis of the socio-political interpretation of the mathematical ideas posited by John Nash (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Forbes_Nash) through his application of 'game theory (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Game_theory)' as it pertained to cold war society. This is covered quite well by Adam Curtis in his 2007 BBC documentary series 'The Trap (http://www.archive.org/details/AdamCurtis_TheTrap)' episode 1 'F@ck You Buddy' (google video of episode below the open archive link is for the full series downloadable version (http://www.archive.org/details/AdamCurtis_TheTrap)).

404227395387111085

I hope this has been of assistance.:behindsofa:
Lunch time has ended so back to my cell. :ranger:

Kind Regards, :yo:
Panopticon

dukes4monny

7th April 2011, 08:15

This short video has reminded me of the fact that we need to find a way of getting the masses to actually see that there is a problem:

rTMwVa3W-NA

It really does put some perspective on how absurd the current system actually is.

People are used to not trusting each other.
This statement nails the problem, but what is the solution?
Most of us do still live in a Panopticon, and those that venture outside are labelled as 'off the rails'.......so who is going to listen to them?

To work out whether you are 'inside' or 'outside' of the prison, take a look at the following image:

http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/01386/policeman_1386486c.jpg

Do you see a Policeman?

or

Do you see some Human Beings?

The real task that we face is to get everyone to see the Human beings.

Revere

7th April 2011, 12:41

Panopticom
I am not trying to 'proclaim'. I have limited time available and your choice of words infer more meaning on my actions than occurred.
I was merely pointing out that a similar discussion within the Permaculture movement is an ongoing one that was started over 30 years ago. I thought some valuable points could be gathered from this previously extensive discursive process and its results.

Yes...I was pushing. Sorry. I am just trying to get as many ideas out to keep this Thread alive. Sad, but it is basically the three of us right now. Avalon is a great resource, intellectually stimulating debating society, but not a much of a organized difference maker IMHO. So be it. I hope I have missed something along the way. But, it still has significant value and our little exercise has value as well. All great efforts often start small. Thanks for contributing.

Peace,
-R-

panopticon

7th April 2011, 12:50

G'day dukes4monny,

You make excellent points and I agree that the hardest thing is to see beyond the 'conditioning'.
The reason I am pedantic about word use and power dynamics in conversation is because it is part of the process that 'conditions' and controls.

Most of us do still live in a Panopticon, and those that venture outside are labelled as 'off the rails'.......so who is going to listen to them?

I feel the ability to remove the self regulation, that is the key to Foucault's use of the Panopticon in 'Discipline and Punish (http://www.cartome.org/foucault.htm)' as I understand it, is the hardest part.
It is not that we are being watched, it is not even that we watch ourselves (self regulation) in my view it is the fact that there is no need for there to be 'prison guards' that is important.
To look and analyse our own actions, power dynamics and conversational approach may also be part of the solution.
Maybe using a deconstructionist perspective and then reviewing actions accordingly might help at the individual level (though using deconstruction can be a problem in itself).
I'm almost certain however that this will not work as an en masse technique as most people think in dualities based on artificial constructs.

Do you see a Policeman?
or
Do you see some Human Beings?
The real task that we face is to get everyone to see the Human beings.
Oddly enough I saw the people in the back of the photo to the right and was trying to work out what they were looking at!
I saw the police officer in front after I was following their gaze (I initially thought he was a traffic warden).

Thanks for the positive dynamic.
I really enjoyed the youtube video. Nice and simple to understand video on how representative democracy and the concept of liberty (http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/liberty-positive-negative/) can work as a controlling mechanism.

Kind Regards, :yo:
Panopticon

panopticon

7th April 2011, 13:06

Yes...I was pushing. Sorry. I am just trying to get as many ideas out to keep this Thread alive. Sad, but it is basically the three of us right now. Avalon is a great resource, intellectually stimulating debating society, but not a much of a organized difference maker IMHO. So be it. I hope I have missed something along the way. But, it still has significant value and our little exercise has value as well. All great efforts often start small. Thanks for contributing.

G'day Revere,

Thank you for the response.
I was not offended and made mention of it so as to clarify my position.
Frequently a misunderstanding can result from mistyped words, spelling differences (English vs US English) and lack of communication.

Though the number of participants is low I think that the conversation is valuable and positive.

Kind Regards, :yo:
Panopticon

cjhepburn

7th April 2011, 17:43

I've been reading your posts and agree there is definitely a problem and the key is to get people to unite. I don't think that would be such an issue if there was a way to alleviate the fear. Folks have forgotten that they are free and in control. Their lives are riddled with fear of losing what they have, becoming homeless and watching their children go hungry. Sadly, that's going to happen whether we do anything or not and personally, if I'm going to lose it all, I'd rather do so on my terms and moving to make good changes.

This country has a good foundation and, as I see it, we need to go backwards and look at the mistakes and see what can be changed. IRS is an example of one of those mistakes and it's time to say, it's not working and good bye. Now they are obviously not going to close up shop voluntarily so folks have to get tough and stop buying into a failed system. Same goes with banks and even the post office, any way the government has of controlling us, snooping on us needs to be dropped. It's going to hurt and we are going to suffer in many ways but it will mean a better future with new directions.

I would also like to note that being calm and organized is great and when I start to lose it, I have a 24 hr rule. Don't act or speak until you've given it 24 hrs. Having said that, I also feel that this country was built on the passion of men who were from diverse backgrounds and agreed on nothing, and that's what makes it so great. From those heated disagreements came many wonderful ideas that made it possible for us to be talking today, openly. We should be careful about muffling that spirit. Everyone has a voice in this country, however nutty it might get at times, and out of love for that freedom we will often need to listen to upset folks and address their issues.

Hope I'm not being too much of a girl about this and over simplifying. I know it's not simple and however limited my understanding, I would like to be a part of the solution.

panopticon

7th April 2011, 19:28

G'day cjhepburn,

You make some excellent points and simplifying down to "nuts and bolts" I personally view as being one of the most important things that anyone can do (that is the essence of deconstruction).
I am not from the United States and while I have some knowledge as to your financial system (it's a fiat based fractional reserve system) I do not pretend to understand the intricacies of your political system (how did Bush win in 2004?). Nor why a private corporation handles your currency creation! Totally bizarre.
Many US citizens I have met are pleasant and intelligent. Just talk a bit strange that's all. :p

I also agree that there is, and always has been, a large problem in trying to balance passion with reasoned thought.
I would never want passion to be discarded. Rather awareness increased.
Look at Freud's (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sigmund_Freud) nephew Edward Bernays (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_Bernays) and his 'Torches of Freedom (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_Bernays#Campaigns)' campaign. Though the idea was only introduced and no-one forced women to smoke. It could be argued that the psychological manipulation used gave little chance of many women doing anything else.

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I'm not sure that "It's going to hurt and we are going to suffer in many ways" is necessarily true.
I am more of an optimist than that. Not in regards to control mechanism, but that people help people more often than not.
In the Victorian Bushfires there were reports of strangers pulling up asking if anyone needed any help. The one that still brings a tear to my eye is the fella who gave his boots to a bloke who didn't have any. Simple and immediate answer to a need. He gave up his blundstones. Now that's selfless behaviour!
The recent Queensland floods also bought out the best in humanity.
The New Zealand Christchurch earth quake same again.

These stories of true 'mateship', as we call it down south, are not from just here.
They are found in Chile, Argentina, Venezuela, Cuba, Haiti, North America, Europe, Africa and all over Asia.

Don't forget the valour and comradery of the Japanese workers who selflessly did (and still are doing) their all at the Fukushima Nuclear Plant. The Japanese who were effected by the tsunami have undergone great hardships and are pulling together in 'Community'.
I view this all reinforces the qualities of what I see as the innate human spirit and potential.

Enough of my pompous prognosticating.
I'm sure there are other valid opinions and perspectives here that need to be voiced.
I apologise for the length and regularity of my postings.

Kind Regards, :yo:
Panopticon

Part 1: http://www.archive.org/details/AdaCurtisCenturyoftheSelf_0
Part 2: http://www.archive.org/details/AdamCurtisCenturyoftheSelfPart2of4
Part 3: http://www.archive.org/details/AdamCurtisCenturyoftheSelfPart3of4
Part 4: http://www.archive.org/details/AdamCurtisCenturyoftheSelfPart4of4_0

dukes4monny

7th April 2011, 21:06

I don't think that would be such an issue if there was a way to alleviate the fear. Folks have forgotten that they are free and in control. Their lives are riddled with fear of losing what they have, becoming homeless and watching their children go hungry.

Thank you for getting involved. You make several very good points, and as you say fear is what is holding most people back, fear maintains the status quo.
I think it was J. Krishnamurti who said "Fear is a movement from certainty to uncertainty". We all like to think that we have a certain status in society and we have precious patterns of belief or understanding, and we don't want to give these up. If we advocate change then this brings uncertainty = fear.
At the very root of this is the irrational fear of death. This fear is drummed into us in religion and films / books etc.
Nobody can tell you how to deal with fear, you simply have to face it, and when you really do that it does melt away.

This does touch on my earlier point about looking at the image and seeing a Policeman or seeing humans. The uniform that the policeman is wearing is designed to make us anxious, which is a form of fear. What I see is a human being who is wearing some fancy dress, but he too lives in fear, so I actually feel empathy instead of fear.

What I would also like to inject into this debate, more for those that haven't read 'Ascent of Humanity' is the idea that we don't allow ourselves to play. Children nowadays are brought into the education system at increasingly younger ages. A (deliberate?) side effect of this is that they are prevented from playing, and play is where the seed for our imagination is sown and nurtured. When we complete our march through the education system, we are given a label: doctor - engineer - builder - professor, and there is no time for play.
I believe that we are here to play, and I sure as hell want my playtime back.

You can see this happened to a certain extent in the 60's. People (temporarily) lost their fear of the establishment, they stopped working, and just played........:hippie:
Back to the 60's anyone?

cjhepburn

8th April 2011, 02:09

I live in the USA and I'm not 100% sure how anyone gets elected now days and I'm guessing I'm not the only one, which is one reason we need to make changes. Where to start?

How do we reach mass numbers of people and let them know they needn't be afraid. Again maybe I'm over simplifying but you get a large mass of folks to do one thing together with some degree of success so they can see it's possible. They will be more willing to try again and take it to the next level.

I quess we could give Facebook and Twitter a whole new purpose.... :-)

skippy

8th April 2011, 17:33

dukes4monny

9th April 2011, 06:10

Revere

9th April 2011, 21:31

Dukes
I must admit that I am really not sure about this guy. He seems just 'too good to be true'......he's worked on the inside too. What do you guys in the US think of him?

The more I know about him the more I like him. I think he is the real deal. He has always been a free spirit from Championship fo-Wrestling to Governor of Minnesota and he has had some pretty interesting dust ups with the Government. Keep an eye on him he is getting in to it all deeper and deeper. His TV series “Conspiracy Theory” has been great. He did a show on the FEMA Concentration camps being built here. The network he broadcasts on is reported to have been completely intimidated by the US government over the show. True TV chickened out and choose not to re-broadcast it at the last minute. I saw the first broadcast and told people to watch it. It was scheduled and everything but another show was played.

Peace,
-R-

Revere

9th April 2011, 21:43

I live in the USA and I'm not 100% sure how anyone gets elected now days and I'm guessing I'm not the only one, which is one reason we need to make changes. Where to start?

It's funny you say that just before the Jesse reference. Jesse Ventura tells a story about being elected. It goes that the night he was elected governor that a bunch of 3 Letter agency guys showed up put him in a room and demanded to know how he won the election in very unfriendly terms. Ooops, he guesses someone messed up because he was obviously not the one they expected to win!

Peace,

-R-

Revere

9th April 2011, 22:02

Skippy
What about organizing a conference in 2012 and invite them all!

Not a bad idea! It needs to go very public very quickly or the organizers may end up with a bullseye on their backs. Yes, the old fear thing jumps up again (queue the Twilight Zone theme music here). LOL... Skippy are you Intuitive? Seriously, I mean it. I once owned an interest in a small Show Promotion company. We did Food shows and Golf shows. I quickly got my fill of celebrities and business partner. Sold off my interest. It was my first attempt to get out of the enterprise IT industry. But, I know how to do it.

Strange very Strange.

Peace,
-R-

Chicodoodoo

9th April 2011, 22:39

I must admit that I am really not sure about this guy. He seems just 'too good to be true'......he's worked on the inside too. What do you guys in the US think of him?

I've been following Jesse for a few years, and I also think he's genuine. I haven't seen anything that would indicate otherwise.

cjhepburn

10th April 2011, 02:59

What about organizing a conference in 2012 and invite them all!

Good idea and last night I was thinking how even churches are using music to bring folks together. Don't know how helpful this would be but I've been working as an office manager/ bookkeeper most of my life. I am good at research and doing letters etc so if someone is needed to do those sorts of things I'm game. I could probably get some free web space and put together a site as well.

If we're going to be targeted then maybe a bullseye would make a good logo. With all the 2012 craziness it would be a perfect time for a conference initiating change.

dukes4monny

10th April 2011, 09:39

Build it and they will come ;)

Revere

10th April 2011, 15:48

Dukes
Build it and they will come

This takes a lot of time...full time commitment (if you want thousands of people). Seed capital does not hurt as well depending on the type of facilities that need to be secured as well as where and when. The right location and local feet on the ground are needed as well to maximize advertising, media, sponsors and local participation. Hmmm, Bill and Inelia are working on a conference. I wonder if there maybe some synergy through their consciousness style conference. (I think that is their plan but not sure.) Directing our consciousness for change is very, very important to the success of changing our situation. I see it as the foundation to a successful movement in many ways. Some legs under the conscious intent is very important.

Is anyone here close enough to Bill to catch some of his time and have a meaningful discussion with him? Perhaps, the two are in alignment or could be a prelude of one to the other? There is a ton to consider and mention but let me keep it short for now.

Peace,
-R-

Revere

10th April 2011, 16:06

If we're going to be targeted then maybe a bullseye would make a good logo. With all the 2012 craziness it would be a perfect time for a conference initiating change.

Whoa....I'd be real afraid that it could be misconstrued as gunning for them...not our intention! Look at the bullseye thing with Sarah Palin's web site and that poor senator who got shot and the innocents who were killed by a possible crazy or manchurian type here in the US!

Remember back "all we are saying is give peace a chance" :hippie: Lennon & Yoko we better stick to that style of tone. That alone just about got Lennon deported. Fortunately he had money, lawyers and NO "Patriot Act"! I'd like to be around to see the change get started. LOL

Peace,
-R-

cjhepburn

10th April 2011, 16:59

[QUOTE]If we're going to be targeted then maybe a bullseye would make a good logo.

Whoa....I'd be real afraid that it could be misconstrued as gunning for them...not our intention!
-R-

Point taken!

cjhepburn

10th April 2011, 17:06

[QUOTE]If we're going to be targeted then maybe a bullseye would make a good logo.

Whoa....I'd be real afraid that it could be misconstrued as gunning for them...not our intention!
-R-

Point taken! We're here to share ideas not start a war.

dukes4monny

10th April 2011, 20:57

Hi all, I've just found this interview with Charles Eisenstein and I think that if you found his book a struggle, this interview really distils it down into an easy to digest brew.
He appears to suggest that there will have to be a collapse of the current system in order to bring about the changes that are needed.
So the question is: is this action that we are hoping for in this thread about bringing about the collapse, or, are we planning action for the post collapse?

One phrase that he mentioned really stuck in my mind: "Money converts abundance into scarcity".........

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dukes4monny

10th April 2011, 21:19

I'm not sure why (kismet?), but I was lead to this article which seems to be written for this thread.........: http://www.realitysandwich.com/gathering_tribe

Chicodoodoo

10th April 2011, 21:29

So the question is: is this action that we are hoping for in this thread about bringing about the collapse, or, are we planning action for the post collapse?

There's no need to help bring about the collapse. That's been the plan of the PTB for a long time, and the collapse will occur. There is a great need, however, to have a plan already in action for the replacement society we want to see. If we don't, the replacement plan offered up by the PTB, which they have already carefully prepared, will be the only "solution" the people will be allowed to see. That is how the PTB operate -- problem, reaction, solution. They create the problem, which is designed to produce an expected reaction, then they offer at the opportune moment their preplanned solution which is packaged to look like the very salvation the people need.

phimonic

10th April 2011, 21:38

i'd like to put important info into a video-game of some kind.
i'm 3D-artist and into game - development - we even won an engine to create a high-tech game for Linux. (can also be exported for win PC/ps3?xbox,.. but we won that license to make a game with this technology running on linux. open-source was probably best.
but now we must think about some sort of game-concept - and story for it. - till now we are totally independent.
i'd love to see some true stories and concepts of higher consciousness within whatever we'll make.
but it is maybe a good way to transport messages to people who wouldn't search for them.

i'm not sure though if it was the right way, and what should be communicated. but i'm sure it is a way , just like the internet - to bring information to people -
i had the idea for example making a shootergame out of john carpenters "they live!" - even got response from john carpenters site, but got stuck at Universal (asking about rights,..) - anyway, with that much insight on things, as within this avalon forum, a much greater story could be told, i guess.
and it wouldn't need to be a shooter-game i guess (personally i don't like shooter-games very much),

but generally i was interested what you people thought about such a game - where it's about ancient ruins, secret energy, bloodlines - rulers and rulers' rulers.
maybe starting in a small village, where they found something early 1900s (tesla-style steampunk - scenarios - maybe even playing with frankenstein-cliches, but putting in real infos, that are not published by mainstream media.

you think this could backfire, in the sense of people not believing even more, cause it's just a game,... ?
if yes , than what to tell instead, which may motivate some people to open their eyes?

i was really interested if you think a game in this direction was useful, and could change any(thing/body)

(this is just a technical movie bout the engine, i was talking: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bkKtY2G3FbU&feature=player_embedded)

Chicodoodoo

10th April 2011, 21:47

I'm not sure why (kismet?), but I was lead to this article which seems to be written for this thread.........: http://www.realitysandwich.com/gathering_tribe

Oh, yeah! That's very much what I'm talking about! The United People Declaration sprang from that very source, even though I have never seen it before.

(kismet -- Fate or Destiny in Turkish and Urdu, a predetermined course of events)

dukes4monny

10th April 2011, 21:59

but generally i was interested what you people thought about such a game - where it's about ancient ruins, secret energy, bloodlines - rulers and rulers' rulers.
maybe starting in a small village, where they found something early 1900s (tesla-style steampunk - scenarios - maybe even playing with frankenstein-cliches, but putting in real infos, that are not published by mainstream media.

you think this could backfire, in the sense of people not believing even more, cause it's just a game,... ?
if yes , than what to tell instead, which may motivate some people to open their eyes?

i was really interested if you think a game in this direction was useful, and could change any(thing/body)

Hi Phimonic, That actually sounds like quite an intriguing idea. I think that it's a very modern way of getting stories across to youngsters, and would perhaps make an interesting 'Adventure' game.
It would take some careful thought about the story that is being told, and would need to be careful to not make it keep people in a 'virtual' reality instead of the 'actual' reality that we need to manifest.
How much work is involved in creating a VR world using this system and what are the costs involved over and above peoples time?

phimonic

10th April 2011, 23:11

[QUOTE=phimonic;194668]
...
It would take some careful thought about the story that is being told, and would need to be careful to not make it keep people in a 'virtual' reality instead of the 'actual' reality that we need to manifest.
How much work is involved in creating a VR world using this system and what are the costs involved over and above peoples time?

_good points! thank you ! - i'd say it needed est. a year dev. time - the costs where at least 10 people working fulltime that year,..plus some equipment. _raising money for that is a good point , and really our biggest problem right now.
we got an email couple days ago from a guy who wants to post an article about gaming on linux on opensource.com. he asked what we are going to do with that engine, and if we had idea yet,..
that was kind of a push to really think about it, - i came up with an experimental idea involving linux- open- source community -

basically we want to make that game for the users, and not for a publisher,.. - so maybe it was possible to motivate interested linux- or also win users to donate for it, and at the same time beeing part of it ( getting acces to files we create - 3D-models mainly etc. - you can donate some more, and you'll have your face modelled to one of the game- characters. - people who donate gain access to those files, can use em for personal use in the sense of creative commons, and have access to a page that shows game-progress, can download test-versions etc... so the game could grow with it's community, or similar ) - but maybe this is crazy and naive ^^
as i said it'd be an experiment. - but if many people could be reached and motivated to donate only a couple of dollars, or even only one dollar - we could at least start.
or we make something for a publisher which wasn't that cool i guess.
maybe we can have ingame-product-placement - indirect advertisements from conscious products or projects.

i don't know
at the moment animating animals for a mobile game to get some bucks for urgent bills :( - but we would love to make a game with the technology we got winning at that contest.
last project we kind of got ripped off badly - but we did it, although it's not great at all, but that's another story about what can go wrong :)
after continuing to do work for that same company in vain - we really would love to do that kind of work how we wanted it to be done, and not how some ceo or whoever thinks,.. :)
i must say we're not like working at an office together - mainly connected with skype- others from russia, england - have contact with coders in bulgaria,..

a bunch of nerds

but i'm sure we could produce such a game much cheaper than a big company.
and with some help even more.
making test-objects and preparing things to make a nice demo, to then look how things evolve. - somehow all gonna be good anyway, i'm sure
first object for engine demo is old steam locomotive, friend is working on - i'm a bit helping - want to start this week with a new character.
i really would like to make a devilmonkey :D ( could be some weird professor's scary pet *think)

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
put a smile on your face and brighten up the place!

dukes4monny

11th April 2011, 07:45

The trouble is Linux is still very specialist and we would need something that is more mainstream...........I don't like Microsoft, but we are stuck with it.
Would it be possible to make it an online multi user adventure game / simulator? Revenue generation is going to be a tricky one, but it would be an interesting test for the 'Living in the Gift' idea?
One idea for the adventure could be 'Post Apocalypse', where users would have to work together to bring about a new society, not as a 'shootemup'. Perhaps the online users could make suggestions that could be added to the simulation world and this could be on a 'Gifting' basis...........this could possibly generate the required revenue?
It could almost be used as a 'Training Ground'.........

greybeard

11th April 2011, 08:33

phimonic

11th April 2011, 10:17

actually the engine would support also win and playstation,.. - so if the game got developed for linux - it then wouldn't be too much effort to port it also to win / ps3 i guess it's more a matter of licensing. - we also had thought about a postapocalyptic scenario (think)
but not sure - had also idea for early 1900 - maybe archeologists find some very ancient ruins - then they find out that it is a 40 000 year old - nuclear-waste-deposit ^^ -
i also like many things about the eisenstein-story - but not sure if the russians would like this, i need to check since all involved shall like the idea.

anyway thanks very much for your posts and thoughts on that - (maybe start a new thread about game (think)^^ )

something totally different what might fit in here - were avalon parties maybe - avalonian soundsystem - connecting djs and make 4 times a year a party in many cities - bombing flyers and stickers worldwide - so in new york, london, vienna milan , sydney, also smaller cities - having djs and artists perform their music, and spread links to avalon due to stickers and flyers. i'm thinking about urban subcultures.
i think it was worth a try.

dukes4monny

11th April 2011, 10:44

I work with Russians all of the time and find them to be very open and understanding 'human beings'.
Thank you for your input to this thread. Your input and idea's are all positive. Positive intentions are one of the most important things.
A separate but parallel thread about this possible project would be a good idea. Maybe start a specific group?

phimonic

11th April 2011, 11:11

yes - i really enjoy working with the Russians - will check out how to make group - will let you know!

phimonic

11th April 2011, 11:28

successfully created group: video-game - everyone who is interested is invited and welcome to join!

Revere

11th April 2011, 13:19

:bump: With new additions

O.K....
1. Chico your idea is roughly to develop tenants of the organization and its infrastructure for the group to be created, function and be ready for action

2. Revere's idea is to flatten out our economic structures for local benefit and to reduce avenues of financial support for the PTB that bubbles up through their various mechanisms’ (Basically get unplugged from their system and re-develop support for local financial and social structures) So, only buy from local farmers, vendors and companies. Build the local economy not the structure that moves money out of your local economy.

3. Duke wants us to suggest a collective common education (books, movies, etc.) library so we can have a common frame of reference to develop ideas from.

4. Skippy wants to get Bill Ryan involved and incorporate some indigenous people's wisdom integrated in to the declaration and/or movement.

5. Skippy says, organise conferences and/or events for the United People of the World on possible actions and subjects to improve humanities lot.

6. Phimonics idea is to create a video game with a story line which mimics or explains the situation that the world is in at present with the PTB.

7. Revere says, Check into the consciousness conference which Bill and Inelia are putting together and see if it is something which can be rolled up into something bigger or complimentary etc.

(If anyone pleases state or re-state your idea in a way that you feel is most appropriate here at some point so we can keep them together in concise form and bump them forward as we go).

Peace,
-R-

Evelon

11th April 2011, 14:08

Hello all, I've just watched a movie, actually one of the best I've watched at all times... it's called - Into The Wild. (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0758758/). I don't know if some one of you has seen it, but that movie... showed how a man can discover himself, nature and freedom! I think that those are the things that we are most looking for? At least, that is in my case... I often try to look for spots in nature when I can rest and just and feel no-bounded from a modern society, cars, people, shops, Computers and so on.... Then a human being can put easily a smile on his face and feel what it is to be around nature itself!.

I recommend the movie for those that hasn't seen it! Thanks !

dukes4monny

11th April 2011, 15:50