Fringe Religion or Sinister Sect.

[ace]

Cult expert Jim Siegelman stated scientology has shown to be the most effective in terms of recruiting but most importantly, potentially the most damaging in terms of its effect on its members.

Harmless Fringe Religion? or Sinister sect that controls the minds of it's members?

Lafayette Ronald Hubbard's P.R Man for 20 years, Vaughn Young (Former Scientologist) Say's: Hubbard had a plan for the world.
"He literally wanted to take over the world" That he wanted to clear the planet, rid it of it's problems.

Vaughn claims Hubbard was like Hitler.

Russell Miller Author of "The Bare Faced Messiah" Says: Hubbard was a liar, charlatan and a thief,a confidence trickster who invented,
"Made up his life as he went along"

Hubbard himself stared "The one man in the world who never believes he is mad, is the mad man"

When Hubbard died in 1986 it is stated he left 650 million dollars.

Stuart Boot (Former Scientologist) Say's: "They put them self's in his house as lodgers and took to borrowing his car".

Jon Atack (Former Scientologist) Say's "Once you have paid a large amount of money and get up to the third level, you are told that a Galactic Prince called Xenu from some 75 million years ago, rounded up the population of 76 planets, brought them to earth, clustered them together using hydrogen bombs and dumped them in volcano's".

Those Scientologist on higher levels come to believe they are, inhabited by thousands of "little alien spirits" Who are governing their behaviour.

Are their any members here who could possibly shed light on any of these claims?

Has a scientologist moved in to your house? Borrowed your car? Put you in a high state of euphoria, then asked for money?

Are thier any active Scientologist here, Who can put forward more information on the claims of the above mentioned Ex Scientologist's?

Regards

Ace



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rD9bCdHqU3s

[Nasu]

In my opinion we should consider letting them do their thing, right or wrong. Either way it is just our own subjective opinion. They are not doing what has not been done in the formation of countless religions. In fact one could argue all religions started out as cults.

So the bigger question could be are any religions valid? Of course the answer is simple, yes they are, it depends on you and your depth of faith. If it helps you understand your path, then it is a good thing, even if it feels bad at the time!

From a perspective of compassion I would humbly re-write the ten commandments, nine are excellent guides for peaceful communal living, however, one just causes trouble and gives ultimate authority to hate; Thou shalt have no other gods but me…. for I am a jealous god. With great respect I would humbly change this commandment to: Thou shalt respect thy neighbors faith.

Let us not be jealous gods in judgment of their faith or their understanding of ours, let them eat their celebrity cake and be a fringe religion. Love, understanding and forgiveness I think are the keys.

[jackovesk]

Scientology = Sinester Sect!

No if's, but's, or maybe's about it!

[Dionysus]

Crowley's opinion of L Ron Hubbard was that he was a confidence man (con man) and trickster. Hubbard certainly seems to have taken advantage of Jack Parsons. Of course, Parsons was quite naive in such things, and was probably far too trusting.

I have been warned in the past not to become involved with Scientology; that much of what it does amounts to mind control. This was from those who knew Scientology personally, or were involved with members or former members.

Take it for what it seems to be worth. I'm not trying to pass judgment here, but offering what I have been told.

[Icecold]

I agree that Scientology is a con, though I am highly suspicious of anyone who claims to be a (grand inquisitor) cult expert.
Cult expert Jim Siegelman

In my view all organised religious bodies are cults.

[ViralSpiral]

HI Ace, for your info/research:

Within what time frame are published Scientology books legitimate? (not by the Church
http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?15907-Within-what-time-frame-are-published-Scientology-books-legitimate-%28not-by-the-Church


Was there more than one Ron Hubbard?
http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?16807-Was-there-more-than-one-Ron-Hubbard&p=180602&highlight=scientology#post180602

[s3nru]

let them be, they've crippled themselves by pissing off 'anonymous', (a much more interesting fringe religion/ sinister sect) and the internet at large...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Chanology
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientology_versus_the_Internet

[greybeard]

Respectfully
Im not sure this is an appropriate discussion for this particular forum.
What one chooses to believe is up to them.
Chris

[K626]

The main thing Ron identifyied is that people emabark on life avoidance and displacement activity as often life and its challenges are too complex and beyond our control. Some of the early stuff is quite interesting, after all its only a competing paradigm to the mainstream brainwashing we're all subjected to from childhood.

K

[modwiz]

How about, something to ignore. (Yawns)

[Bill Ryan]

--------

http://projectcamelot.org/dane_tops.html


_____________________________


Project Camelot interviews Dane Tops
Los Angeles, September 2009


Some of you may have read on our Questions page (http://projectcamelot.org/questions.html#spiritual) that I (Bill) have experience in an offshoot of the original Church of Scientology.

But I was utterly surprised when a legendary whistleblower in the Church of Scientology introduced himself to me and told me that what he had to share had something to do with Black Operations. Kerry, who has never studied Scientology, agreed that this whistleblower was very much in the ranks of regular Camelot whistleblowers. We decided to do an interview.

So: we bring you Dane Tops - an almost mythical figure in Scientology history who has never before come forward to tell his story - which is extraordinary even by Camelot standards: all about how the Church of Scientology was taken over in the early 1980s, and the courageous and astonishing way in which Dane blew the whistle, which resulted in tens of thousands of members realizing what was going on - and leaving. Put the coffee on (a lot of it!), read carefully, and Enjoy.
____________

Start of interview

Dane Tops [D]: I wanted to say that I have hardly ever run into anyone who got involved with this subject - or offshoots of this subject - after 1975, who didn’t have anything but a very bad opinion toward the Church of Scientology. Personally, I believe that before I (quote) “blew the whistle” the place was already completely infiltrated by the Illuminati. Their intention was to produce exactly that result (a very bad opinion) on the general public. The Church was fully corrupted and made a mockery of what it was intended to be and started out to be. Goal accomplished.

The reason it was infiltrated by the Illuminati is because of the mind control techniques that could be developed from the 1950 book that Ron Hubbard published, and soon after because of the paranormal abilities that Hubbard’s techniques were producing. The Illuminati thought it could not allow humanity to discover their true innate powers and ability.

In the 50s, those abilities were virtually unheard of. Today, there are dozens of understandings in the general public that were not extant then. I believe that Hubbard’s discoveries and techniques filtered down into literally hundreds of subjects from black ops (direct mind control used for dark purposes) on to personal therapies, self help organizations, new religions, cults and into general medical literature now considered standard knowledge.

In the ’40s Hubbard discovered and demonstrated that there is no memory that cannot be recovered. That was startling and unbelievable. At that time he developed techniques to have people recall memories that occurred at birth AND from conception onwards. Memories were verified for accuracy with, for instance, the doctor at birth. Or with the parents for incidents that happened during the pregnancy. He developed techniques that allowed anybody to recall anything in their history with a little work. We’re not talking about imagination; we’re talking about literally verified birth and womb memory: full conversations, and exact events.

Now, he did this work in the ’40s, and he wrote about it in a book called Dianetics, the Modern Science of Mental Health in 1950. The book was a best seller. Russia tried to contact and hire him and the reason Russia wanted him was because they recognized that the techniques in that book could be reversed so that they could develop psychic warfare and mind control techniques.

The Russians realized that the out of body perceptions that Hubbard was developing could be used to spy and collect information from remote locations. The Russians saw that the power of the mind could be focused remotely to influence the thoughts of others at a distance. Russia started testing their children and developing the ones with the most skills. The US followed.

[ ...continued here... ] (http://projectcamelot.org/dane_tops.html)

• Click here (http://projectcamelot.org/Dane_Tops_letter.pdf) for the original Dane Tops Letter.
• Click here (http://www.amazon.com/Montauk-Book-Dead-Peter-Moon/dp/0967816238) for a book, The Montauk Book of the Dead, written by Peter Moon, the author of the Montauk series of books, who worked alongside L. Ron Hubbard for many years. Highly recommended as a well-written and balanced account.
• Click here (http://projectcamelot.org/Ruthless_Adventure_the_lives_of_L_Ron_Hubbard.mp3) for a 1987 BBC radio documentary, Ruthless Adventure: the lives of L. Ron Hubbard, a very balanced and interesting account containing archived interviews and little-known research material.
• Click here (http://projectcamelot.org/The_Invisible_Third_World_War_chapter_21_COVERUP.pdf) for a section of Walter Bowart's unpublished book, The Invisible Third World War, making reference to L. Ron Hubbard and his techniques. Bowart was never a Scientologist, but understood the value of Hubbard's work and techniques.
• Click here (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=1786568759674213741) for a Channel 4 (UK) documentary on Scientology as delivered by Ron's Org (http://www.ronsorg.com/), the largest 'splinter group', founded by Bill Robertson in 1984. Amusing and balanced.
• Bill Ryan's personal Scientology connection is through Ron's Org (http://www.ronsorg.com/) (see immediately above), from which he has gained a great deal of benefit. He was never in the Church of Scientology, and is on the famous Church of Scientology Enemies' list (http://projectcamelot.org/the_scientology_enemies_list.rtf).

[ace]

Respectfully
Im not sure this is an appropriate discussion for this particular forum.
What one chooses to believe is up to them.
Chris

Hello Chris

Would you be able to elaborate on why you feel this is not appropriate for this forum.

To understand what a man believes, is to understand how he thinks.

regards
Ace

[greybeard]

My apologies Bill I had not realized there was such a major difference between that from which you benefited and the original.
Chris

[ace]

How about, something to ignore. (Yawns)

Maybe you should get some more sleep.

Ace

[K626]

How about, something to ignore. (Yawns)

Tbh this is one subject that is very "baby and bathwater" my friend. :p

[greybeard]

Respectfully
Im not sure this is an appropriate discussion for this particular forum.
What one chooses to believe is up to them.
Chris

Hello Chris

Would you be able to elaborate on why you feel this is not appropriate for this forum.

To understand what a man believes, is to understand how he thinks.

regards
Ace

See my apology to Bill Ace
I though wrongly that the thread was perhaps insensitive to Bill's beliefs and this is his forum.
As The church of S has nothing to do with Bills beliefs the apology was forthcoming.
I agree with understanding a what a man believes is to understand how he thinks.
We are all conditioned to a greater or lesser degree.
Chris

[ace]

Scientology = Sinester Sect!

No if's, but's, or maybe's about it!

Are you saying Ron Hubbard was sinester, his teachings or that the way those teachings have been taken and used by others?

Regards
Ace

[ace]

Respectfully
Im not sure this is an appropriate discussion for this particular forum.
What one chooses to believe is up to them.
Chris

Hello Chris

Would you be able to elaborate on why you feel this is not appropriate for this forum.

To understand what a man believes, is to understand how he thinks.

regards
Ace

See my apology to Bill Ace
I though wrongly that the thread was perhaps insensitive to Bill's beliefs and this is his forum.
As The church of S has nothing to do with Bills beliefs the apology was forthcoming.
I agree with understanding a what a man believes is to understand how he thinks.
We are all conditioned to a greater or lesser degree.
Chris

Thanks for your thoughtful reply Chris.

I am in no way attempting to be insensitive to Bill's beliefs.
I have simply made my way from the back of the bus to attempt to understand the driver.

Have a great day enjoy the sun today.

Respect
Ace

[modwiz]

How about, something to ignore. (Yawns)

Tbh this is one subject that is very "baby and bathwater" my friend. :p

I had a gilrfriend around 1975 that was a Scientologist. I remember her very fondly. (Fans self). We did find time to talk, :wink:, really we did, and her religion was the main topic for us. She lived a few blocks from the main building on Central Park West in Manhattan, and it was very much a part of her life.

I say this because my ho hum attitude may make some think I am coming from a place of ignorance. Acceptance and boredom are often partners.

BTW. Scientology has changed since those days and seems to have followed the downward and tawdry trajectory of any movement that catches the eyes and attentions of certain movers and shakers on this planet.

So for me :popcorn:. Just another sleazy walk in the "organized" mindfarking aisles of spiritual dogma.

Baby and bathwater issues acknowledged.

Engrams, knowing about them, were a major way of breaking out of patterns for me. That concept alone would make Dianetics a useful read for the majority of the English speaking world.

[Icecold]

I published Hubbard's Brain Washing Manual on Nexus about a month ago, here is the link....

You can download the PDF......the horse's mouth.... :cool:

http://www.apfn.org/pdf/The_Brainwashing_Manual.pdf

[K626]

How about, something to ignore. (Yawns)

Tbh this is one subject that is very "baby and bathwater" my friend. :p

I had a gilrfriend around 1975 that was a Scientologist. I remember her very fondly. (Fans self). We did find time to talk, :wink:, really we did, and her religion was the main topic for us. She lived a few blocks from the main building on Central Park West in Manhattan, and it was very much part of her life.

I say this because my ho hum attitude may make some think I am coming from a place of ignorance. Acceptance and boredom are often partners.

BTW. Scientology has changed since those days and seems to have followed the downward and tawdry trajectory of any movement that catches the eyes and attentions of certain movers and shakers on this planet.

So for me :popcorn:. Just another sleazy walk in the "organized" mindfarking aisles of spiritual dogma.

Baby and bathwater issues acknowledged.

Engrams, knowing about them, were a major way of breaking out of patterns for me. That concept alone would make Dianetics a useful read for the majority of the English speaking world.

I suspected so.

Are you able to discuss some of the main rivers of discussion...? I mean what was the main things that you found yourself resisting. I often find that people just transpose (not you) thier interior war of discovery over any organised religion/sect/philopsphy they come across or get entwined in. The inside tries to establish an analogue on the outside if you see what I mean.


cheers

K

[Bill Ryan]

Respectfully
Im not sure this is an appropriate discussion for this particular forum.
What one chooses to believe is up to them.
Chris

Hello Chris

Would you be able to elaborate on why you feel this is not appropriate for this forum.

To understand what a man believes, is to understand how he thinks.

regards
Ace

See my apology to Bill Ace
I though wrongly that the thread was perhaps insensitive to Bill's beliefs and this is his forum.
As The church of S has nothing to do with Bills beliefs the apology was forthcoming.
I agree with understanding a what a man believes is to understand how he thinks.
We are all conditioned to a greater or lesser degree.
Chris

Thanks for your thoughtful reply Chris.

I am in no way attempting to be insensitive to Bill's beliefs.
I have simply made my way from the back of the bus to attempt to understand the driver.


If we take the bus as Scientology, equally smart might be to examine the engine and transmission to see how it works, whether it's in good condition, who engineered it, and whether it's the kind of vehicle that's capable of getting passengers somewhere interesting and valuable.

Whether it did get passengers somewhere interesting and valuable would depend on which way the driver turned the wheel and how they drove the bus. But that's all about the driver. The question is: is it a well-engineered bus?

:)

I've traveled on one of these buses, driven by the most highly trained Scientologists on the planet, since 1983. And it's taken me to a place which I personally would never have reached in any other way.

Ace, I suggest another way of looking at this: ask some of the passengers if they've had a worthwhile journey, and find out what they're able to do when they arrive at the other end.

[modwiz]

How about, something to ignore. (Yawns)

Tbh this is one subject that is very "baby and bathwater" my friend. :p

I had a gilrfriend around 1975 that was a Scientologist. I remember her very fondly. (Fans self). We did find time to talk, :wink:, really we did, and her religion was the main topic for us. She lived a few blocks from the main building on Central Park West in Manhattan, and it was very much part of her life.

I say this because my ho hum attitude may make some think I am coming from a place of ignorance. Acceptance and boredom are often partners.

BTW. Scientology has changed since those days and seems to have followed the downward and tawdry trajectory of any movement that catches the eyes and attentions of certain movers and shakers on this planet.

So for me :popcorn:. Just another sleazy walk in the "organized" mindfarking aisles of spiritual dogma.

Baby and bathwater issues acknowledged.

Engrams, knowing about them, were a major way of breaking out of patterns for me. That concept alone would make Dianetics a useful read for the majority of the English speaking world.

I suspected so.

Are you able to discuss some of the main rivers of discussion...? I mean what was the main things that you found yourself resisting. I often find that people just transpose (not you) thier interior war of discovery over any organised religion/sect/philopsphy they come across or get entwined in. The inside tries to establish an analogue on the outside if you see what I mean.


cheers

K

As a Solitaire, my relationship with the Universe and Spirit has been and continues to be, one on One. Me and The Void. It has been my experience that Spirit leaves me cherries (I love cherries) all over the place. So, I am a cherry picker from all of the materials I am exposed to. My path has exposed me to much but there is always as much in front of me as there is behind me. I am always right in the middle of it All standing at the precipice looking into The Void and then back at this world.

So any discussion I undertake will represent a synthesis of all of these cherries and how I have assembled them. I avoid pedantic plunges into pure paths of particular points of purview. I embrace alliteration though. lol

I do understand your inside/outside analogue analogy and I agree many do this because they are lazy and have not figured or worked out a different way to "taste" these varied/new ideas/philosophies.

BTW. She, the Scientology girlfriend, used the resisting term as did my born again cousin when my path was not theirs. Interesting company. Telling too.

Thank you for a thoughtful exchange.

[mondaze]

i find l ron interesting however like modwiz i'm not a joiner... i'm a carpenter!

[K626]

How about, something to ignore. (Yawns)

Tbh this is one subject that is very "baby and bathwater" my friend. :p

I had a gilrfriend around 1975 that was a Scientologist. I remember her very fondly. (Fans self). We did find time to talk, :wink:, really we did, and her religion was the main topic for us. She lived a few blocks from the main building on Central Park West in Manhattan, and it was very much part of her life.

I say this because my ho hum attitude may make some think I am coming from a place of ignorance. Acceptance and boredom are often partners.

BTW. Scientology has changed since those days and seems to have followed the downward and tawdry trajectory of any movement that catches the eyes and attentions of certain movers and shakers on this planet.

So for me :popcorn:. Just another sleazy walk in the "organized" mindfarking aisles of spiritual dogma.

Baby and bathwater issues acknowledged.

Engrams, knowing about them, were a major way of breaking out of patterns for me. That concept alone would make Dianetics a useful read for the majority of the English speaking world.

I suspected so.

Are you able to discuss some of the main rivers of discussion...? I mean what was the main things that you found yourself resisting. I often find that people just transpose (not you) thier interior war of discovery over any organised religion/sect/philopsphy they come across or get entwined in. The inside tries to establish an analogue on the outside if you see what I mean.


cheers

K

As a Solitaire, my relationship with the Universe and Spirit has been and continues to be, one on One. Me and The Void. It has been my experience that Spirit leaves me cherries (I love cherries) all over the place. So, I am a cherry picker from all of the materials I am exposed to. My path has exposed me to much but there is always as much in front of me as there is behind me. I am always right in the middle of it All standing at the precipice looking into The Void and then back at this world.

So any discussion I undertake will represent a synthesis of all of these cherries and how I have assembled them. I avoid pedantic plunges into pure paths of particular points of purview. I embrace alliteration though. lol

I do understand your inside/outside analogue analogy and I agree many do this because they are lazy and have not figured or worked out a different way to "taste" these varied/new ideas/philosophies.

BTW. She, the Scientology girlfriend, used the resisting term as did my born again cousin when my path was not theirs. Interesting company. Telling too.

Thank you for a thoughtful exchange.

I used the term mindfully.

I can identify aspect of your stand with perhaps Nietzsche in later life.

But do not forget we are all one and some will come to you for guidance.

In good heart.

K

¤=[Post Update]=¤






Respectfully
Im not sure this is an appropriate discussion for this particular forum.
What one chooses to believe is up to them.
Chris

Hello Chris

Would you be able to elaborate on why you feel this is not appropriate for this forum.

To understand what a man believes, is to understand how he thinks.

regards
Ace

See my apology to Bill Ace
I though wrongly that the thread was perhaps insensitive to Bill's beliefs and this is his forum.
As The church of S has nothing to do with Bills beliefs the apology was forthcoming.
I agree with understanding a what a man believes is to understand how he thinks.
We are all conditioned to a greater or lesser degree.
Chris

Thanks for your thoughtful reply Chris.

I am in no way attempting to be insensitive to Bill's beliefs.
I have simply made my way from the back of the bus to attempt to understand the driver.


If we take the bus as Scientology, equally smart might be to examine the engine and transmission to see how it works, whether it's in good condition, who engineered it, and whether it's the kind of vehicle that's capable of getting passengers somewhere interesting and valuable.

Whether it did get passengers somewhere interesting and valuable would depend on which way the driver turned the wheel and how they drove the bus. But that's all about the driver. The question is: is it a well-engineered bus?

:)

I've traveled on one of these buses, driven by the most highly trained Scientologists on the planet, since 1983. And it's taken me to a place which I personally would never have reached in any other way.

Ace, I suggest another way of looking at this: ask some of the passengers if they've had a worthwhile journey, and find out what they're able to do when they arrive at the other end.

The intelligent ones will also me midful of the fact that they remain the driver.

cheers

Ktology

[modwiz]

K626,

Yes, we are all one. The ones that choose and seek guidance will find it and be received in good heart. I will share my cherries gladly.

I love words and language but they are rolled about with little effort besides applied intellect. This can lead to a reticence for overmuch dialogue.

Especially for a lazy keyboard user like myself.

All the same it is a delight to share some thoughts.

[ace]

Bill Ryan

Ace, I suggest another way of looking at this: ask some of the passengers if they've had a worthwhile journey, and find out what they're able to do when they arrive at the other end.

I have seven Questions, are you open to answering.

Regards
Ace

[str8thinker]

In the first post in this thread, ace asked


Are their any members here who could possibly shed light on any of these claims?

Has a scientologist moved in to your house? Borrowed your car? Put you in a high state of euphoria, then asked for money?

Are thier any active Scientologist here, Who can put forward more information on the claims of the above mentioned Ex Scientologist's?

And then I see that Bill Ryan's reply, penned, as usual, with great politeness and tact:


The question is: is it a well-engineered bus?

As you see from reading my earlier posts referred to by other posters in this thread, I have had some exposure to the principles of Scientology, so am in a position to comment here.

I would like to put the following to you as I see it:

1) "Scientology" became "The Church of Scientology" not because it offers what a religion offers, but because of huge tax advantages in being a commercial religion. It does not offer its adherents immortality nor promise inside knowledge of the nature of God, for example.

2) To use Bill's example, let's start by removing the signwriting from the outside of the bus. Take all religious aspects away from it and what are you left with? A combination of precepts (meaning theory here) plus various counselling and psychological techniques, plus the way in which they are administered. This last aspect is vital. Using Bill's analogy again, the administrative aspect is where the bus driver decides to take you. In the case of Scientology, this could be a trip along the road to hell. You could even find yourself imprisoned in the bus.

3) Take away this unpleasant aspect of Scientology, and what are you left with? a combination of theory (Scientology) plus a set of techniques (Dianetics) that can be applied to you. To use Bill's analogy yet again, and narrowing the meaning of Scientology to the quasi-psychological theories expounded by Ron Hubbard in his books and lectures, these are like a set of travel brochures and road maps handed out by the bus company. If you've never been any of the places listed in the brochures, you might believe what you read, taking it at face value. Superficially, these brochures appear to make good sense and create an acceptable roadmap of the world and maybe beyond. But they are not essential for what you might want to get out of "Scientology".

4) Let's put aside all this theory, and what are you left with? Simply the set of techniques, which I will lump together as Dianetics and which Bill referred to as the engineering (construction) of the bus. Let's make the bus a car for the moment. Some distances are too far for you to walk, so you need to learn to drive or have someone drive you or teach you to drive. If you have a group of people in the same situation, they require a bus driver to take them where they wish to go. Collectively, a bus answers their needs.

All these people wish to travel in the same direction, namely self-improvement, though the distances may vary. Some will wish to alight a little earlier than others. If the bus is well put together and maintained, the wheels won't fall off and the engine won't break down along the way. It should faithfully take you as far as possible to your destination. Likewise, I put it to you that a person properly trained in the counselling methods integrated into a single discipline by Ron Hubbard in Dianetics should be able to take you through to personal improvement you can verify, without your needing to know or care about any of the "theory" espoused by Scientology. The two are NOT inextricably fused together; "Scientology" has really very little to do with why "Dianetics" is successful, and certainly does not and should not be proposed as the mechanism behind its success. This should open some of your eyes to the potential of these techniques in responsible hands.

One of the first things I noticed about Scientology as I saw it practiced is how little its "theory" has to do with the way it is practiced. Any theory is attractive if it reduces our complicated and confusing world to a comfortable set of axioms which are above the need for scientific validation.

The "bus", however, is actually engineered very well, its components are smoothly integrated with each other, and to use another automotive analogy, in order to understand them you must undo the panels and open up the engine compartment. There are many more "drills" and techniques used in Hubbard's counselling method than you will read about in his best-known books; in fact, a mark of a skilled counsellor is that, like any psychologist, he/she will adapt or create new techniques to work on a particular aspect of a client (preclear). Unlike conventional psychologists, Hubbard counsellors have a more varied assortment of tools, some of which can easily be turned into weapons in the wrong hands.

Underlying all this is the concept of ethical behaviour. Therefore an ethical counsellor would not put you in a high state of euphoria and then ask you for money. An unethical bus company, however, might hand you a glossy brochure with misleading pictures on it, then pressure you into signing up for a tour. This has nothing to do with the quality of their coaches or even the professionalism of their drivers.

I hope Bill doesn't disagree too strongly with my interpretation here.

[str8thinker]

Some further comments:

In my previous post I described the Church of Scientology (CoS) as a commercial religion. In case you consider this an oxymoron, its Religious Technology Center (http://www.rtc.org/david-miscavige.htm) (RTC) is


...a nonprofit organization formed in 1982 to preserve, maintain and protect the Scientology religion.

Religious Technology Center holds the ultimate ecclesiastical authority regarding the standard and pure application of L. Ron Hubbard’s religious technologies. RTC is not part of the management structure of the Church and is not involved in its day-to-day affairs. It holds the Dianetics and Scientology trademarks and service marks, which Founder L. Ron Hubbard donated to RTC in 1982. Earlier, Mr. Hubbard himself oversaw the practice of the religion and registered as trade and service marks many of the religion’s identifying words and symbols, such as "Dianetics" and "Scientology." These registered marks provide a legal mechanism for seeing to the correct application of the Scientology technologies and to prevent anyone from practicing in a nonorthodox manner while claiming it is standard Dianetics or Scientology.

http://faq.scientology.org/rtc.htm


Notice that every care is taken here to disassociate religion from mammon. So if the RTC is a nonprofit group, where do the megabucks go? It's not hard to read between the lines here.

Talking of religious technology, if you read Hubbard's Dianetics: The Science of Mental Health (1950), it does not mention E-meters, which did not appear before the late fifties, with E-meter Essentials published in 1961. This is important as it indicates that Dianetics had been and can be practised effectively even without E-meters, and many of its techniques (e.g., the "touch-assist") do not require one at all!

The other marvel is that even though E-meters have been around now for fifty years, they are still not used, AFAIK, by conventional psychotherapists. I'm sure the CoS and now the RTC work hard to maintain this status quo. Unfortunately, this simple little machine which works on galvanic skin response has been so overhyped by Scientologists as to give it a bad name in the public eye. Their rationale for doing this appears to be much the same as "If the only tool you have is a hammer, everything else looks like a nail".

By interposing this bit of technology between the practitioner and his client, Hubbard gained two benefits. First, by being made a cornerstone of his "religious technology", this rather crude instrument has engendered a large body of pseudoscientific interpretation and jargon. IMO this should only ever be a helpful adjunct to a practitioner-client relationship and should never supplant it, something the CoS seems to have done to encourage its subjects to stay within the fold ("the meter shows you are not yet clear").

Second, the same body of pseudoscientific interpretation and jargon can be used to convince clients (those on the receiving end, i.e., holding its cans) that the practitioner (reading its dials) can see into their minds, read their thoughts, etc.

Note, too, from the earlier quote:


It holds the Dianetics and Scientology trademarks and service marks, which Founder L. Ron Hubbard donated to RTC in 1982.

On the other hand, there seems to be some evidence (see my thread (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?16807) on this) that the real Ron Hubbard "disappeared" in about 1980. In which case, who effected the "donation"? Was there a Miscavige of justice? :)

[Bill Ryan]

I hope Bill doesn't disagree too strongly with my interpretation here.

That was a pretty good post. :)

The problem with discussing Scientology is that a little knowledge is definitely a dangerous thing.

It's so easy to misunderstand all aspects of this story, despite the best intentions. And almost every discussion has contributors who have charged opinions, either because they've been influenced by others who have charged opinions - or (sometimes, but not usually) have personal reason to feel disaffected.

To put metaphors aside, Hubbard's techniques, when expertly and ethically applied, can handle almost literally anything: almost any ailment, situation, or mental/ emotional/ physical / spiritual condition.

The body of work that is Scientology is not the Church of Scientology. Here's 'Captain' Bill Robertson (whom I knew personally), at a meeting in East Grinstead in 1983 - the year before he left to found Ron's Org and further develop Hubbard's techniques.

It's impressive. Bill Robertson comes in to speak at 0:25.

Quick reference guide:



thetans = souls or spirits
enthetans = evil spirits
theta = high quality, clean, spiritual essence
the technology, or the tech = the huge body of processes researched and developed by Hubbard.


http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4517051303808700897

[K626]

Very charismatic geezer and no mistake.

cheers

K

[lightblue]

.
"cleaning up the mess we are in" sounds to me like one of the many pharses used in this very sense here on avalon coinciding with "cahreles's" arrival...pity he is not here to ask him if he meant it in the same scientologists' sense... :) l


.

[K626]

The ch4 doc is well worth watching. I'd recommend it and it isn't very long. It is light and mission neutral so one may pick up things in there without a huge amount of investment.

For me it seems an investigation into the given/percieved identity to recover parts of the true nauture of personal identity (one that is masked by events).

K

[jackovesk]

Scientology = Sinester Sect!

No if's, but's, or maybe's about it!

Are you saying Ron Hubbard was sinester, his teachings or that the way those teachings have been taken and used by others?

Regards
Ace

I was saying the way in which those teachings have been taken and used &/or abused by others to Maniplulate & Control!

The Sect (Church of Scientology), not the teachings as I understand it have destroyed many an individual and family unit.

It operates something similar to a Pyramid 'Control' Scheme to me and I also cannot phathom how Govts. can give them 'Tax Free' status!

[ace]

Scientology = Sinester Sect!

No if's, but's, or maybe's about it!

Are you saying Ron Hubbard was sinester, his teachings or that the way those teachings have been taken and used by others?

Regards
Ace

I was saying the way in which those teachings have been taken and used &/or abused by others to Maniplulate & Control!

The Sect (Church of Scientology), not the teachings as I understand it have destroyed many an individual and family unit.

It operates something similar to a Pyramid 'Control' Scheme to me and I also cannot phathom how Govts. can give them 'Tax Free' status!

Hello jackovesk
Thanks for your reply, I am at this time trying to discover what exactly whent wrong with the church of scientology.

The concept of scientology, when I look at it's core principles, I have to say their are things within it that resonate with me.

May I ask you, what do you think of the Teachings?

And when you say,

The Sect (Church of Scientology), not the teachings as I understand it have destroyed many an individual and family unit.

Why would that be? and is it the case that all religions have suffered the same fate.

Regards
Ace

[jackovesk]

Scientology = Sinester Sect!

No if's, but's, or maybe's about it!

Are you saying Ron Hubbard was sinester, his teachings or that the way those teachings have been taken and used by others?

Regards
Ace

I was saying the way in which those teachings have been taken and used &/or abused by others to Maniplulate & Control!

The Sect (Church of Scientology), not the teachings as I understand it have destroyed many an individual and family unit.

It operates something similar to a Pyramid 'Control' Scheme to me and I also cannot phathom how Govts. can give them 'Tax Free' status!

Hello jackovesk
Thanks for your reply, I am at this time trying to discover what exactly whent wrong with the church of scientology.

The concept of scientology, when I look at it's core principles, I have to say their are things within it that resonate with me.

May I ask you, what do you think of the Teachings?

And when you say,

The Sect (Church of Scientology), not the teachings as I understand it have destroyed many an individual and family unit.

Why would that be? and is it the case that all religions have suffered the same fate.

Regards
Ace

Forgive me Ace,

I am no expert on Scientology and have little knowledge of its teachings.

I can only form an opinion from what I have read and heard...which does not delve into Ron Hubbard's teachings only the impact some have witnessed and experienced through their asscoiation with the Church of Scientology.

Therefore my knowledge is limited to what some of these Whisteblowers have shared with the public. i.e. The way in which the Church charges a huge amounts of $money to go through the different levels of the teachings. e.g (Clear to Spiritually Free)

Claims of forced abortions, imprisonment in boot camps and separation of families from past members of the Church of Scientology were aired on the ABC's Four Corners program.

Ace, hopefully this documentary may help you discover what exactly went wrong with the Church of Scientology.

Part 1 of 5

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KY_9ZI7YFpo

Part 2

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E9HpSvipYNQ&feature=mfu_in_order&list=UL

Part 3

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GvGGK1CHYGQ&feature=mfu_in_order&list=UL

Part 4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tpwvCRJG5v4&feature=mfu_in_order&list=UL

Part 5

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lY15hCzwvdY&feature=mfu_in_order&list=UL

http://www.abc.net.au/4corners/content/2010/s2837513.htm

Ace, as mentioned I am no expert and the information above is my limited understanding of the Church of Scientology.

Regards
Jack

PS - The Church of Scientology's representative 'Tommy Davis' gives me the 'Creeps' his deception and doublespeak cleary exposes him for the the charlatan he is.

[Whiskey_Mystic]

Post withdrawn.

I think I am feisty and looking for a fight. I'll chill until the chip on my shoulder gets a bit smaller.

Sorry all.

[Ross]

Tommy Davis is a dangerous man...

I have had my own experience with the CoS.

The org I attended was nothing less than deception, usury, manipulation under the guise of "clearing the planet" for a better existence for mankind. They will drain you of all your money, leading you towards the state of "clear" on the "bridge" and when you have no funds left to PAY for your "education" in becoming "clear" so you can then progress upwards on the bridge towards OT level 1 in order to progress upwards to further OT levels (operating Thetan) you are persuaded to continue, "you will find the money" if you really try, and when that fails they will target you as a volunteer, expected and cohersed into many hours of unpaid work.

90% of the ORG I became familiar with were all volunteers....you can simply not afford to pay for their outrageous fees, so you can pay (with your time) for a reduced fee because if you don’t you are still a long way from reaching OT if you have managed to reach the CLEAR state in becoming a "operating thetan".


Also, when and if you decide to do a "course" after they give a "free" IQ and Aptitude tests to evaluate you (you produce high marks...watch out, they want you even more) you then fill out the most ridiculous amount of legal b/s paperwork to cover there asses before you can proceed, but wait you have to become a member before you can do a course, $500.00 sorts that out.

So, you are now a Member, they tell you what course's you need to do, you cant just do "this or that" from the available "tech" you must start from the beginning. The first thing they hit you with is the "Purification Program" " you must clear your physical body of all contaminates, including sunburn from the past, any chemicals you have come in contact with, any X-rays or similar, any medications you have been prescribed, any drugs you may have partaken in and so on...

You must be clear of these contaminates before you can progress, as they hinder you ability in your journey in becoming "clear" $2500.00 for the Purification Program, but if you combine that with the follow up course, there is a discount.

I had it out with them on many occasions...What on Earth are you doing charging so much for courses? If you want to "clear the Planet" give it at cost, to cover the necessary books and associated materials...if that’s your true agendas, well, I was told I was under the influence of my past engrams (not this lifetime but past life times) and needed to sort this out before they could work with me, I questioned everything, they soon realised I was not a "sheep" and further tried to promote me as a "case" that needed special intervention, more courses and more costs...

I continued to plague them, as they would not come clean to the OT levels, what was involved, what are the expected results. "Can’t tell you" you must have done the lead up work before you are ready for it...

I could write a whole **** load on this but I am out of time and I am, as you can plainly see very against their tactics, their wordcraft (Ron figured out how to get to people) their deceptions but most of all, their means of manipulating money from you.

I have not even started on the auditing process...I am not saying this tech is not helpful nor that Rons initial work was bogus, but the fact that they dwelve deep into your personal self, record, even video, everything you say...but you sign that "right" in the legal jargon at onset...

I have no time for them at all...they try to recruit, once you are in, you are considered "one of them" with constant "keeping an eye on you" everyone else is on the outside...either prospective recruits and money or enemies.

For the record, I was asked to leave, when a fellow I got to meet, and connected with, sold his house, used all is Navy pension, and gave them $300,000 up front for 2 years worth of course's, the 2 years was worked out, full time study to reach OT 2...I tried to caution him on giving this amount over without further investigating the early course's, to see if it suited him, but I failed...they swindled him out of this money with promises that he would be "clear" of his "reactive mind" and able to operate from a thetan standpoint...in other words, unaffected by anything that life can throw at you. He did his two years and was very disappointed with his expected outcome...but wait, they told him he needed to do more course's, he was a "tough case" but we will triumph...he left soon after, a very bitter and disappointed man.

Enough for now...

Ross

[ace]

PS - The Church of Scientologies representative 'Tommy Davis' gives me the 'Creeps' his deception and doublespeak cleary exposes him for the the charlatan he is.

I have to say I am in alignment with you regarding Tommy Davies, this individual does not leave me with a good feeling.

Many thanks for this video, something I had not seen, It is very disturbing.

Regards
Ace

[shijo]

in the early 70s, really early 70s i went for the infamous personality test at their hq in tottenham court road, just for a laugh ostensibly, many quick fire questions were asked as i recall leaving me little time to answer and by the end of it i was obviously a suitable case for treatment, somehow they got my address out of me and in the following 4 years i was sent over 600 letters telling me i needed auditing. I resisted, sometimes it was funny getting so many letters , other times scary.I wrote to them probably 20 times to get the letters stopped,and eventually lost track when i moved house. Id also suggest reading the bits and pieces available about Van Morrisons times with the church of scientology in the eighties, he was into it but it seems they were robbing him of all his money so he left.In my opinion one doesnt have to pay to find oneself, to find the true centre of ones being and manifest from there.So anyway i havent had any truck with them for 40 years and have warned all my mates off too.