Sacrifice why, why not

[jorr lundstrom]

http://i600.photobucket.com/albums/tt81/sakasvattaja/Winged_craft_similar_to_Anunnaki.jpg

I find the idea of sacrifice hard to understand. I realize that humans have sacrified

a lot of different stuff for a very long time. It seem to be build on an idea that

gods( wot that is) and different entities dwelling in 4D or higher should be pleased

with sacrifices or hostile if they dont get. Humans have sacrificed humans, burnt

flesh, blood, energy of different forms, candles, incent, fruit, flowers and so on

and on............

But why? Is there some kind of consious bargin in it? Wot will happen if we just

stop? Is it just a stupid habit?

Can you help me to find out wot its all about?:ranger:

[Ahkenaten]

Jorr that is so strange you have been thinking about this subject that so pervades our past and present history. I, too have been thinking about it, sometimes late at night. I wonder where this arose and why. A psychological explanation could be it arose out of fear of unknown terrible natural events --- an attempt to 'appease' (or bribe!) the forces of nature? Yet it seems to run so much deeper than that and psychological explanations - attempts to superimpose modern thinking over the old, are often so shallow and futile.

Why the compelling need for sacrifice, especially of blood? I think the concept of sacrifice is at the very heart of the mystery about us, the deep split or wound if you will in our nature, the secrets that are hidden from us in our religions and repetitive histories.

[Dick]

If you look at the war in Libië, then we are making sacrifices every day, but now the victims are helpless people, and the goal isn't to please God, but to save our oil supply.

( @ jorr lundstrom: Nice pic. If that's what an UFO is like, i want to be an alien.:cool:)

[Jayke]

Isn't it just an energy exchange, I am imagine the thought process of 4d being could be "I want your energy to empower my own evolution but your a sovereign being so i'm not allowed to just take it...I have to coerce you into handing it over freely, what can I do to scare people into handing over their power"...

Although I often wonder what awareness of divinity our souls sacrifice as they choose to incarnate in these physical bodies?

[Whitehaze]

Usually a sacrifice is intended to bring good fortune and to pacify the gods. In some cultures it was practiced to capture the strength of ones opponent, or their spirit. They were all ritualistic and even modern day executions are very ritualistic. The practice has a very long history dating back many thousands of years and found in many different cultures.

[Ahkenaten]

the subject gets pretty bizarre when you start looking into it................for example (and this is just one) take the Aztecs and Monteczuma when Cortes arrived. There were some pretty bloody ritualistic sacrifices occurring on those stone altars that the arriving Spanish Conquistadores regarded as primitive and barbaric. And yet as Catholics they also practiced the ritual of sacrifice, if only symbolic and sublimated -----in the ceremony of the Communion. (the Body of Christ Given for Thee, the Blood of Christ, shed for Thee.)

Try as I might I have not been able to crack the sacrificial code. If we could crack this open it would tell us about our deepest nature, the split that occurred in us and effectively 'silenced' us, separated our our minds and psyches individually and collectively into the dualistic frame we have today wherein we are at War with our very Selves and persist in acting this out at all levels.

Some say that at some point in our past humanity suffered a terrible trauma and that we are, as a species, in effect, showing lingering signs of that massive trauma in our split nature - something so awful happened that we must, so to speak, take great pains to hide it from ourselves.......and this is the deep void and wound from which the drive to sacrifice or propitiate the gods arises.

Some have said that trauma was the blowing up of our home planet. Now that would indeed be a trauma.

I have no idea and of course we can only posit theories. But if we could solve and resolve for once and for all the psychological puzzle of the need for blood sacrifice perhaps we could, as a species, move on at long last.

And I think looking around at the damage we have wreaked around us both inter-species and upon the world that sustains and supports us and without which we cannot hope to survive, it is clear it is high time that we solve these problems together for once and for all.

[Newlyn]

My thoughts on the subject:

Maybe it's a way to show god total trust? Like the hebrews, they sacrificed their most fine animals to god, maybe as a sign that god will provide them with everything they need anyways?

Or maybe for some kind of karmic thought, that we give this and that to God, and he will give us back, multiplied.

Blessings.

[Ahkenaten]

I can totally understand the reciprocity principle here...., like for like. But why does the trade-off have to be literally one of blood and flesh? If god is an energetic being then wouldn't he be sophisticated enough to accept and value a symbolic substitute - like flowers, a cherished pebble - or thoughts or prayers? Why the need for concrete flesh and blood. Isn't that somewhat atavistic, assuming we are talking energies here. This is truly a paradox especially given the persistent and pernicious aspects of ritualistic blood sacrifice in human history - and it persists to this day.

Do you think that the idea of sacrifice arises from some primal guilt? In other words, some primal sense that somehow WE ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR THE MESS WE FIND OURSELVES IN AND SO WE MUST DESTROY OURSELVES, PUNISH OURSELVES, and pretend that in doing so we are offering up sacrifices to god? A lie within a lie so to speak. Just an idea. Kind of like people who cut themselves and harm themselves out of deep self-loathing and self-hatred.

Kind of like we are saying on some level that we are aware that we are deeply flawed, that we are at some fundamental level responsible, and that we must therefor pay for our transgressions with our very life??? What a horrific thought!!

I do not believe this is true, as much as some religions (note I say 'religions' not spirituality) seem to be based on this concept.

[jorr lundstrom]

If you look at the war in Libië, then we are making sacrifices every day, but now the victims are helpless people, and the goal isn't to please God, but to save our oil supply.

( @ jorr lundstrom: Nice pic. If that's what an UFO is like, i want to be an alien.:cool:)

Yeah, but thats a different kind of sacrifice. Its like when the father send his son

to a possible death in Irakto get approval from the heighbours. Its like a horisontal

bargin.

But I am more interested in the bargins with entities in 4D and up.

The vehicle is an Annunaki ship. They say the wings have no other purpose than

decoration, which I strongly doubt.:horn:

[Newlyn]

Ive heard about that... Was it David Icke (and elsewere)? That blod and flesh sacrifice, aswell as sexual energy is being used to open portals, comunicating with entities, and fortifying magic, as the 'ritual'.

[jorr lundstrom]

Isn't it just an energy exchange, I am imagine the thought process of 4d being could be "I want your energy to empower my own evolution but your a sovereign being so i'm not allowed to just take it...I have to coerce you into handing it over freely, what can I do to scare people into handing over their power"...

Although I often wonder what awareness of divinity our souls sacrifice as they choose to incarnate in these physical bodies?

Yeah, accepting free will they must find out other ways to get wot they want. If they can manipulate us

so we are easy to scare and have other humans to scare us can be one way. But then I wonder wot

their assistent get from it?:ranger:

[DevilPigeon]

-----

I think it's a very good question. Maybe if we had access to the 'hidden histories' that have been denied to the majority of the human race we'd be in a better position to know the answer...

[Omni]

Can you help me to find out wot its all about?:ranger:

I have endured "sacrificial acts" done by beings who could be seen as Gods(but might be more explained like a wizard of oz behind a curtain with advanced technology). They have told me things like(reptilians or an AI impersonation of them): "You will sacrifice for all acts you do for your people as result of interaction with ETs." I was also told almost all prophets in our history have endured sacrificial acts. Some in death, others in other things.

I was told the negative reptilians were behind the sacrifices in history. Was told(not saying it's true from just being told this telepathically) that they were the "Gods" that valued sacrifice. I'm unsure how much of this is true but it was pretty horrible at the time as it was the explanation for all the torture I endure(still to this day although they have given me better explanations since the one I gave). This is torture on the worst levels. Torture that is inescapable in it is done by controlling my mind and experience, perception, etc.

I'm not a fan of sacrifice. But I do respect those who do sacrifice. As I know I have a lot.

[jorr lundstrom]

Usually a sacrifice is intended to bring good fortune and to pacify the gods. In some cultures it was practiced to capture the strength of ones opponent, or their spirit. They were all ritualistic and even modern day executions are very ritualistic. The practice has a very long history dating back many thousands of years and found in many different cultures.

Ok, are we manipulating ourself in this way or do we really pacify anything else?

And you mean that executions are sacrifices. I have never thought along that line.

This is an interesting rabbithole.:popcorn:

[Dick]

I think That ahkenaten is right, if you want food, you offer food, and if they wanted birth, they offerd a virgin, and if they want it to be a good year with many newborn cattle, they offerd a cow. And so on.
Actualy, we are doing it right now, only we make it like a little party, i dont known the right word, but if we had a good year whit lots of grapes, for the wine, we give wine party.

[jorr lundstrom]

My thoughts on the subject:

Maybe it's a way to show god total trust? Like the hebrews, they sacrificed their most fine animals to god, maybe as a sign that god will provide them with everything they need anyways?

Or maybe for some kind of karmic thought, that we give this and that to God, and he will give us back, multiplied.

Blessings.

Im not quite sure wot you mean by the hebrews. But in the old testament they have stories about people willing

to sacrifice their children. Total trust- no children or bad breeding stock among the sheep. Cute gods/ cute demands.:frusty:

[Ahkenaten]

OK Dick this is very interesting.................the whole idea of a law of correspondences on some level perhaps being the operative principle. Isn't this also a basic law of MAGICK ...............which according to some scholars of ancient Egypt like Schwaller de Leibitz was the LAW.

this is a little off topic but only an illustration - somewhere I read that someone actually had managed to make a drawing of a machine work in the same way as an actual machine using the MAGICKAL principle of correspondences. I interpreted this as the drawing worked just like the machine because on some energetic level, the drawing contained within it all the potentialities and in fact the practical functionality of the machine. Perhaps THIS is what sacrifice is about.....and the sacrifices themselves are intended to embody specific energies and functions.........................with the idea of reciprocity operative.

So - the idea of sacrifice being the law of correspondences I think it is high time we recognize what the collective we is doing and WHAT it is that we are 'bargaining' for.

OR.....are our repetitious sacrificial rituals merely our way of expressing our self-hatred and loathing for our own species and the idea that we have hit a brick wall?

[jorr lundstrom]

I can totally understand the reciprocity principle here...., like for like. But why does the trade-off have to be literally one of blood and flesh? If god is an energetic being then wouldn't he be sophisticated enough to accept and value a symbolic substitute - like flowers, a cherished pebble - or thoughts or prayers? Why the need for concrete flesh and blood. Isn't that somewhat atavistic, assuming we are talking energies here. This is truly a paradox especially given the persistent and pernicious aspects of ritualistic blood sacrifice in human history - and it persists to this day.

Do you think that the idea of sacrifice arises from some primal guilt? In other words, some primal sense that somehow WE ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR THE MESS WE FIND OURSELVES IN AND SO WE MUST DESTROY OURSELVES, PUNISH OURSELVES, and pretend that in doing so we are offering up sacrifices to god? A lie within a lie so to speak. Just an idea. Kind of like people who cut themselves and harm themselves out of deep self-loathing and self-hatred.

Kind of like we are saying on some level that we are aware that we are deeply flawed, that we are at some fundamental level responsible, and that we must therefor pay for our transgressions with our very life??? What a horrific thought!!

I do not believe this is true, as much as some religions (note I say 'religions' not spirituality) seem to be based on this concept.

Christianity has tried to convince us that we are born into sin and teh priest has done wot they

can to get us feeeling guilty, but thats only to make us able to manipulate. Responsible, yes and if we

want to live as spiritual beings we have to sacrifice our lifes. But then we sacrifice ourself to ourself.:ranger:

[Dick]

[QUOTE=Ahkenaten


So - the idea of sacrifice being the law of correspondences I think it is high time we recognize what the collective we is doing and WHAT it is that we are 'bargaining' for.[/QUOTE]

You mean that what we are doing here on avalon is seeking for the truth to come out, and if we are all doing the same it will happen ?

[jorr lundstrom]

Ive heard about that... Was it David Icke (and elsewere)? That blod and flesh sacrifice, aswell as sexual energy is being used to open portals, comunicating with entities, and fortifying magic, as the 'ritual'.

Aha, like an entry fee.:playball:

[Heartsong]

And you mean that executions are sacrifices. I have never thought along that line.


An execution is an act of justice (so called). A sacrifice is the giving of self or something that self values to show fealty or allegiance to someone or something.

An Aztec ceremonially murdering an opponent would be perhaps the sacrifice of a potential slave. Just a thought.

[jorr lundstrom]

Can you help me to find out wot its all about?:ranger:

I have endured "sacrificial acts" done by beings who could be seen as Gods(but might be more explained like a wizard of oz behind a curtain with advanced technology). They have told me things like(reptilians or an AI impersonation of them): "You will sacrifice for all acts you do for your people as result of interaction with ETs." I was also told almost all prophets in our history have endured sacrificial acts. Some in death, others in other things.

I was told the negative reptilians were behind the sacrifices in history. Was told(not saying it's true from just being told this telepathically) that they were the "Gods" that valued sacrifice. I'm unsure how much of this is true but it was pretty horrible at the time as it was the explanation for all the torture I endure(still to this day although they have given me better explanations since the one I gave). This is torture on the worst levels. Torture that is inescapable in it is done by controlling my mind and experience, perception, etc.

I'm not a fan of sacrifice. But I do respect those who do sacrifice. As I know I have a lot.

I have been told that it was the Annunakis that planted the idea of sacrifice on

Earth. And it seems that this is an ongoing affair.:der:



http://i600.photobucket.com/albums/tt81/sakasvattaja/Annunaki___sumer_god_by_thadeemon.jpg

[Ahkenaten]

[QUOTE=Ahkenaten


So - the idea of sacrifice being the law of correspondences I think it is high time we recognize what the collective we is doing and WHAT it is that we are 'bargaining' for.

You mean that what we are doing here on avalon is seeking for the truth to come out, and if we are all doing the same it will happen ?[/QUOTE]

I was specifically referring to us becoming aware of what we are doing when engaging in sacrificial rituals........if it is true that we are using, even if unaware, the law of correspondences trying to evoke some kind of reciprocal response..............we should be aware that we are doing that (if we are) in order to better understand the results we get.

What I am getting at is if we are all participating in (I say all because I believe on some level we are one) these rituals - maybe we just do not understand that we are getting the precise result that would logically be anticipated THE DESTRUCTION OF NOT ONLY OURSELVES BUT OUR WORLD through the inexorable law of correspondences. Do you see what I mean? Even if we do not know what we are doing when we do something there WILL inevitably be a result and we can see the bad results of our current methods all around us.

The subject of all participants in this Forum and the results from a law of correspondences perspective actually would be a very interesting but separate thread.

[Ahkenaten]

Jorr thank you for this thread. IMO this is one of the most important subjects we as human beings have to resolve and it is extremely important to everyone who truly cares about human beings and this planet.

[jorr lundstrom]

Ahkenaten. we are sacrificing ourself and the Earth, everything natural, functioning and alive.

And we get a lot of useless s##t in return. Just look around.

We sacrifice our days, its a nice ritual,

running around in a hamster wheel,

hoping that it will give us some kind of reward in something we

call the future which of course never will happen.:horn:

[slvrfx]

Very good question.

I'm kinda thinking it might not be so much about the sacrifice itself, but the conscious (consciousness) behind the decision. The making of a decision and "owning it", causing it to happen.

You really own it if it's a big sacrifice like your best cow, versus a bouquet of flowers thrown onto the sacrificial fire.

Consciousness...intention...focus...strength (if it's a biggy), and the ability to take it to completion.

I would venture to say this 'excercise' expands our consciousness.

[jorr lundstrom]

So, wot kind of inteties like that a lot of humans die in wars and ten thousand children starve to death every day.

And who feed from anger, sorrow and human sufferings. I realize that a lot of humans dont have anything against

if other human suffers, but wot kind of enteties are involved?:Cry:

[jorr lundstrom]

Very good question.

I'm kinda thinking it might not be so much about the sacrifice itself, but the conscious (consciousness) behind the decision. The making of a decision and "owning it", causing it to happen.

You really own it if it's a big sacrifice like your best cow, versus a bouquet of flowers thrown onto the sacrificial fire.

Consciousness...intention...focus...strength (if it's a biggy), and the ability to take it to completion.

I would venture to say this 'excercise' expands our consciousness.

Yes, the kick of power in the one who sacrifice. But wot about the reciever?:director:

[Ahkenaten]

Jorr I agree that we are running on a hamster trap of sacrifice whether we are aware of it or not.............but why does it necessarily follow that aliens are the reason why we are doing this? I'm not saying they're not, I have no way of knowing for sure and also have read that aliens put that idea in us - but what if it really is ALL ABOUT US?

By putting the idea and responsibility for the consequences on aliens or others are we not avoiding taking responsibility for our actions ourselves? Actually I do not think there is any avoiding consequences for one's actions in reality - we can only postpone the inevitable!

Should we not consider that WE ourselves do these things even if ignorant of why or the consequences (the destruction of ourselves and the earth) and we should stand up, take responsibility - AND STOP!!

Just an idea.

[jorr lundstrom]

You might be totally right in this, I dont know yet. It might be all about us. How do we find out if there are other entities involved?

We seem to gladly accept it as a fact that there are a lot of beings behind the curtains.:phone:

[slvrfx]

Jorr...May I offer my perspective, granted it is only mine...open to debate...

I spent years pondering those questions, then had a thought after reading books on past lives that IF we consciously choose to be reborn, we basically draw up our own 'contract', and we want certain things to happen to us in our current lifetime, for it helps us put a karmic balance in our eternal being.

The second thought is that in considering how important free agency is, the Universal law of choice, when people make bad decisions, sometimes there has to be victims, ie.....a bad person can't be a murderer without someone to kill. I have felt a calm believing that some choose willingly to be these victims, and therefore are helping the karmic universal wheel keep turning.

When I myself have had bad things happen to me, I could very easily release myself from whatever it was by realizing it happened so I could learn from it, and not being angry or upset with the person who did me the injustice, for this was a plan ahead of time, for a very specific purpose.

I believe these things because I believe we're eternal consciousness.

[Newlyn]

My thoughts on the subject:

Maybe it's a way to show god total trust? Like the hebrews, they sacrificed their most fine animals to god, maybe as a sign that god will provide them with everything they need anyways?

Or maybe for some kind of karmic thought, that we give this and that to God, and he will give us back, multiplied.

Blessings.

Im not quite sure wot you mean by the hebrews. But in the old testament they have stories about people willing

to sacrifice their children. Total trust- no children or bad breeding stock among the sheep. Cute gods/ cute demands.:frusty:

Yes I meant from what you can read in the bible. I'm grown up with the bible, and know it fairly well. Something I'm very happy for, because much of it is very useful if you can read it with open mind. Actually I can not imagine how it could be interesting at all if you don't.

Well, the hebrews in the bible sacrificed a perfect (the best) male lamb to god.

And yes, there is the story about none else than Abraham, who God told to sacrifice Isaac(Isak), his only son who also was a gift from god (Abraham and his wife where in fact to old to have children, so Isaac was some kind of wonderchild). This is a very interesting story with a lot of room for interpretation.

http://www.journeywithjesus.net/Essays/AbrahamSacrificesIsaac_Rembrandt_sm.jpg

[Ahkenaten]

I have no idea who is responsible for the bad things we do except ourselves.........but I do agree that there seems to be many who believe that there are other beings entangled in our lives and destiny................and frankly I tend to agree somewhat with that view but within that believe we are talking multi and extradimensional beings and - that brings us full circle to the large subject of energetics and the universal laws underpinning the reality we create/share. I am only a novice on these subjects - an explorer without a space suit so to speak. Running naked amongst the lambs and wolves.

[Newlyn]

Jorr...May I offer my perspective, granted it is only mine...open to debate...

I spent years pondering those questions, then had a thought after reading books on past lives that IF we consciously choose to be reborn, we basically draw up our own 'contract', and we want certain things to happen to us in our current lifetime, for it helps us put a karmic balance in our eternal being.

The second thought is that in considering how important free agency is, the Universal law of choice, when people make bad decisions, sometimes there has to be victims, ie.....a bad person can't be a murderer without someone to kill. I have felt a calm believing that some choose willingly to be these victims, and therefore are helping the karmic universal wheel keep turning.

When I myself have had bad things happen to me, I could very easily release myself from whatever it was by realizing it happened so I could learn from it, and not being angry or upset with the person who did me the injustice, for this was a plan ahead of time, for a very specific purpose.

I believe these things because I believe we're eternal consciousness.

We learn the most when we take ourselves through the hard times.

I guess this planet is an exelent, but hard school

[Gone002]

Self sacrifice, giving of your self for a cause greater than yourself or others. In the past many have done this, the reason maybe they loved something so much they would die for it, something like hope for the future love for people or to stop evil.

[Lord Sidious]

My thoughts on the subject:

Maybe it's a way to show god total trust? Like the hebrews, they sacrificed their most fine animals to god, maybe as a sign that god will provide them with everything they need anyways?

Or maybe for some kind of karmic thought, that we give this and that to God, and he will give us back, multiplied.

Blessings.

Im not quite sure wot you mean by the hebrews. But in the old testament they have stories about people willing

to sacrifice their children. Total trust- no children or bad breeding stock among the sheep. Cute gods/ cute demands.:frusty:

Yes I meant from what you can read in the bible. I'm grown up with the bible, and know it fairly well. Something I'm very happy for, because much of it is very useful if you can read it with open mind. Actually I can not imagine how it could be interesting at all if you don't.

Well, the hebrews in the bible sacrificed a perfect (the best) male lamb to god.

And yes, there is the story about none else than Abraham, who God told to sacrifice Isaac(Isak), his only son who also was a gift from god (Abraham and his wife where in fact to old to have children, so Isaac was some kind of wonderchild). This is a very interesting story with a lot of room for interpretation.

http://www.journeywithjesus.net/Essays/AbrahamSacrificesIsaac_Rembrandt_sm.jpg

Don't forget the scapegoat.

[Ahkenaten]

But why would the gods in various traditions specifically demand human sacrifices and sacrifices of animals? Even getting very specific about the manner in which the bodies were to be cut up and displayed on the altar? Even if the 'gods' are but projections of ourselves, why the detail? Why are these specifically required in order to show proper thanks, subservience, respect, obedience, fear, etc. to the 'gods' or to our dark side for that matter? ('scapegoats' being proxies for human sacrifices?)

[Gone002]

Maybe there is a hidden meaning, could someone draw power from anothers death?

[Ahkenaten]

This is horrible but serial killers often express the sentiment that they draw power from the person they kill as they are dying as a motive for their killing - but I always had dismissed that as a sign of a deviant criminal mind

[jorr lundstrom]

slvrfx. I did also put my thumb mark on one of those contracts. LOL

But I find it hard to swallow the idea that maybye 30 000 children each day just

are on short term contracts. On the other hand if a cod produce halv a miljon eggs

and the purpose is to secure one cod for next cycle of reproduction than we are all under the

law of survival of the fittest. And this in a situation when there still si food enough on the planet.

I dont know, just doesnt feels right.:tsk:

[Newlyn]

Self sacrifice, giving of your self for a cause greater than yourself or others. In the past many have done this, the reason maybe they loved something so much they would die for it, something like hope for the future love for people or to stop evil.

Live for others and you will live yourself. Self sacrifice I think is somewhat needed for a higher spiritual level on this planet. To live by the spirit, and not just the mind and ego. In the spirit you realize that giving and serving is the way be truly great. Like Jesus when he washed his deciples feet. To see how small this person, Me, this human is, and realize that the spirit is a part of God himself! And that everything around is the same.

That is a great topic! What is a good sacrifice? :)

[Lord Sidious]

The life force, it is in the blood.
Why do you think they usually want to drain the blood and/or take the heart?
And what do you think the stories of vampires are really about?
So yes, the vibration/life force in the blood is believed to strengthen those who know how to use it.

[Ahkenaten]

some even say that even the story of Christ's life was changed and distorted somehow to conform to the historic sacrifice meme and that was not the story or meaning (if he existed) of his life..................

[Belle]

In researching the Archons (some call them Annunaki), I read somewhere in the Nag Hammadi writings that they are the ones that create a false reality that people buy into. The word "sacrifice" actually means (in its original usage): to make sacred. It had no connection with blood or killing. According to the gnostics, it was the Archons that took the original meaning and twisted it to take on the meaning many believe today...kind of like the twisted saying "War for peace".

In my research I noted the following, but don't know where I picked it up from:

"All the ancient world religions have an idea of, belief in, or requirement for, sacrifice of some kind. However, the original 'Spiritual' meaning of the Law of sacrifice has, in most cases, been lost or misunderstood. The original Law of God required that each of us sacrifice (i.e. make Sacred / Pure / Holy) our own initial (i.e. ‘first-born’) animalistic (beastly / carnal / unspiritual) nature, through the purifying ‘flame’ (God’s Light) of Truth, in order that we might be ‘reborn’ (resurrected) into Spiritual consciousness (i.e. ‘True and Eternal Life’) – or, to put it another way, we must each abolish (‘kill’) our own (initially) ‘beastly’ (carnal) nature. This original and eternal Law was (and still is) falsely interpreted by various materialistic / literalistic priesthoods to mean that God requires the bloody slaughter of (‘first-born’ and ‘pure’) human or animal victims to absolve the sins of humanity! This is why orthodox Christianity has interpreted Jesus’ crucifixion in the same carnal way (i.e. as a ‘blood’ sacrifice for our sins).

The only way to achieve this genuine Sacrifice of the 'lower' self is through the practise of genuine Gnosis, i.e. Mystic Communion with the Light of God."

[Gone002]

Interesting, could people in the church and other religions use this ?, maybe even black projects.

On another note, why and how would killers know this?

[Ahkenaten]

Or other cultures vastly separated by time and space from Christianity or its antecedents. Like the Aztecs - for whom human sacrifice, specifically cutting out the beating hearts of victims, was a central practice of their culture. I think that the practice predates the Middle Eastern Cultures that share common ancestry................and is another this time dark legacy, of a predating advanced in some ways, world-wide culture.

Also it must satisfy some instinctive/psychological need for people to continue to engage in this behavior, especially in ritualistic form. I consider institutionalized modern warfare to be another form of ritual sacrifice, but I am sure many would vehemently disagree.

[Belle]

Maybe when the idea of "sin" and our "unworthiness" was propagated, getting people to accept "sacrifice" was made easier by convincing them it would wipe away sin or make up for their unworthiness...jmho.

Ahkenaten, I was led to believe that the Spanish conquistadors were the ones who promulgated the idea of the Aztecs practicing human sacrifice when they returned to Spain...that with time, the story they told became "truth".

[Lord Sidious]

I consider institutionalized modern warfare to be another form of ritual sacrifice, but I am sure many would vehemently disagree.

That is exactly what it is, sacrifices to the war god jehovah.

[Second Son]

I have been intrigued by the concept of sacrifice for some time, and have researched it extensively.

Some of the most barbarous practices of human sacrifice happened in Mesoamerica. The Mayans would cut out the still beating heart of the victim, then decapitate the body, and throw the corpse off the pyramid to the lesser priests below, who then skinned it. The higher ranking priest would then descend among the crowd and wear the bloody skin while dancing around. For the Mayans, the higher the status of the victim the better the "gods" liked it, so leaders of nearby cites and fierce warriors were the first to fall to the flint knife. The Incas would fatten up their victims and put them through purification rituals for up to a year in advance of sacrificing them. Seems for the Incas, like the Mayans, it was about quality over quantity. A few victims, fed well... treated like royalty for all intents and purposes... were more auspicious than a multitude of lesser caste victims. As far as sheer numbers go, no one holds a candle to the Aztec... known to sacrifice up to 20,000 at one time to consecrate a temple, they usually tied their victims together with vine rope, one to the next, so that their ultimate fate would be known by all, in a sort of macabre game of 'Chinese telephone'. The victims of the Aztecs were generally eaten by both priest and onlooker.

It is important here to note that fear was as integral to the process as was the actual killing... in all cultures the victims ALL knew their fate well in advance. I believe that the stories told by David Icke and others are true... that the chemicals surging through the bloodstream as a result of this intense fear were part of the ritualistic element, and made possible the manifestation on this physical plane of their respective 'gods'. What better name than Quetzalcoatl or "winged serpent", for a reptilian entity who flew to earth? It also bears pointing out, as we see the limited efficacy of traditional rocket technology, that worm holes, "star-gates" or other dimensional portals may be the method these 'gods' used to get here. I suspect (and this seems to be a universal truth) that these entities had to be invited here or invoked in some way. I think this was done by the same black magicians who later would officiate the aforementioned sacrifices.

I have seen a mural from a central american temple, which depicted a 'god' (rather green, with fangs, claws, etc.) being served food by his minions, who were also eating. The difference? The servants were eating maize, and the 'god' was eating human body parts. So just as the mesoamericans sometimes bound their childrens' heads to emulate the 'gods' so to did they undergo these incredibly sick and bizarre rituals, because their 'gods' were regularly killing and eating the neighboring peoples.

I think I can say this with some authority... that ALL cultures who practiced human sacrifice learned it from the 'gods', who were no more than 4th dimensional shape-shifting entities, who have for millennia fed upon our fear and suffering, and still do to this day. Sadly, most of our royal families and rulers descend from the hybrid offspring of these entities. The Bram Stoker novel "Dracula" was a dark and frightening book, BUT its antagonist was nowhere near as sinister and evil as the real-life man he was styled after. Vlad Dracul, also known as "Vlad the Impaler, was known for his brutal treatment of his enemies. His favorite method of execution was to impale his victims (with a well oiled and not-too-sharp pike, lest they die quickly from blood loss) through the buttocks and out the mouth. Infants were impaled upon their mothers' chest. Like the Mesoamericans before him, he favored high ranking victims, and they were given longer stakes than the rest. Remember... were it not for the all powerful 'gods" or the ruling 'elite', who were themselves chosen by 'god' this unsavory practice would NEVER have come into being.

[jorr lundstrom]

Belle. I listen to a series of videos today by John Lash when he spoke on the creation of the planet earth in the material aspect.

He also talked a lot about Archons and their boss Jahve. And wot you say about them here. They seem to be non biological beeings that

do wot they can to manipulate humans to become as ungenuine as possible and pick up all artificial traits that that are available. So we finally

become just as artificial as they are. Game over. They have won when we all have siliconparts, chips and internet injected in our frontal

loobs.:hail:

[Ahkenaten]

Hi Belle I do believe that testing on the pyramids has revealed they were literally drenched with human blood. But I am certainly no expert on the subject let alone a forensic scientist! The book The Discovery and Conquest of Mexico by Bernal Diaz del Castillo which is from the original manuscript (Castillo accompanied Cortes so it is a first-hand account - oops, mistake - he wrote this manuscript between 1517 and 1521, sorry!! I didn't have my glasses on! ) provides some detail about Aztec practices, though possibly embellished due to cultural bias as you pointed out.

[Ahkenaten]

I have been intrigued by the concept of sacrifice for some time, and have researched it extensively.

Some of the most barbarous practices of human sacrifice happened in Mesoamerica. The Mayans would cut out the still beating heart of the victim, then decapitate the body, and throw the corpse off the pyramid to the lesser priests below, who then skinned it. The higher ranking priest would then descend among the crowd and wear the bloody skin while dancing around. For the Mayans, the higher the status of the victim the better the "gods" liked it, so leaders of nearby cites and fierce warriors were the first to fall to the flint knife. The Incas would fatten up their victims and put them through purification rituals for up to a year in advance of sacrificing them. Seems for the Incas, like the Mayans, it was about quality over quantity. A few victims, fed well... treated like royalty for all intents and purposes... were more auspicious than a multitude of lesser caste victims. As far as sheer numbers go, no one holds a candle to the Aztec... known to sacrifice up to 20,000 at one time to consecrate a temple, they usually tied their victims together with vine rope, one to the next, so that their ultimate fate would be known by all, in a sort of macabre game of 'Chinese telephone'. The victims of the Aztecs were generally eaten by both priest and onlooker.

It is important here to note that fear was as integral to the process as was the actual killing... in all cultures the victims ALL knew their fate well in advance. I believe that the stories told by David Icke and others are true... that the chemicals surging through the bloodstream as a result of this intense fear were part of the ritualistic element, and made possible the manifestation on this physical plane of their respective 'gods'. What better name than Quetzalcoatl or "winged serpent", for a reptilian entity who flew to earth? It also bears pointing out, as we see the limited efficacy of traditional rocket technology, that worm holes, "star-gates" or other dimensional portals may be the method these 'gods' used to get here. I suspect (and this seems to be a universal truth) that these entities had to be invited here or invoked in some way. I think this was done by the same black magicians who later would officiate the aforementioned sacrifices.

I have seen a mural from a central american temple, which depicted a 'god' (rather green, with fangs, claws, etc.) being served food by his minions, who were also eating. The difference? The servants were eating maize, and the 'god' was eating human body parts. So just as the mesoamericans sometimes bound their childrens' heads to emulate the 'gods' so to did they undergo these incredibly sick and bizarre rituals, because their 'gods' were regularly killing and eating the neighboring peoples.

I think I can say this with some authority... that ALL cultures who practiced human sacrifice learned it from the 'gods', who were no more than 4th dimensional shape-shifting entities, who have for millennia fed upon our fear and suffering, and still do to this day. Sadly, most of our royal families and rulers descend from the hybrid offspring of these entities. The Bram Stoker novel "Dracula" was a dark and frightening book, BUT its antagonist was nowhere near as sinister and evil as the real-life man he was styled after. Vlad Dracul, also known as "Vlad the Impaler, was known for his brutal treatment of his enemies. His favorite method of execution was to impale his victims (with a well oiled and not-too-sharp pike, lest they die quickly from blood loss) through the buttocks and out the mouth. Infants were impaled upon their mothers' chest. Like the Mesoamericans before him, he favored high ranking victims, and they were given longer stakes than the rest. Remember... were it not for the all powerful 'gods" or the ruling 'elite', who were themselves chosen by 'god' this unsavory practice would NEVER have come into being.

I would add in all fairness to the Aztecs and Mayans that no one in history that we know of anyway can surpass for sheer barbarity and magnitude of human death/sacrifice/suffering that of 'modern' humans and modern warfaring.

[Belle]

He also talked a lot about Archons and their boss Jahve.


Jahve, Jehovah, Yahweh...one and the same?

Thanks, Ahkenaten. I stand corrected.

[Ahkenaten]

But why do we have to say 'game over' - we are NOT silicone chips! We are not merely flesh and blood - we are energetic beings of light. We must stand up on our two legs and become who we really are and stop doing all the bad things we do, period. End of story.

We must stop the barbaric and retrograde practice of sacrifice once and for all. They say the Chinese invented Chess to sublimate warring instincts. Maybe we could do something truly incredible with all this energy for it is phenomenally destructive and thus could be phenomenally constructive if redirected using the law of correspondences.

[Second Son]

Yaldaboath would be the head archon... also know as Yahweh.

These entities are not true gods, but more like what we ould call a "demi-urge" in that they cannot create from nothing. According to the Nag Hammadi texts they could only copy what was already made manifest by Sophia.

[Maria Stade]

He also talked a lot about Archons and their boss Jahve.


Jahve, Jehovah, Yahweh...one and the same?

Thanks, Ahkenaten. I stand corrected.

The same the same ! Yes

[jorr lundstrom]

I strongly recommend these series of vids by John Lamb Lash. He speaks about the Gnostics knowledge

on Sofia, Jahve and the archons.





http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YKTK0z9Fkn8


http://i600.photobucket.com/albums/tt81/sakasvattaja/pilgrim4.jpg

[Belle]

Yaldaboath would be the head archon... also know as Yahweh.

These entities are not true gods, but more like what we ould call a "demi-urge" in that they cannot create from nothing. According to the Nag Hammadi texts they could only copy what was already made manifest by Sophia.

I agree...they could only "create" a false reality, like putting a "virus into the program".

[modwiz]

My thoughts on the subject:

Maybe it's a way to show god total trust? Like the hebrews, they sacrificed their most fine animals to god, maybe as a sign that god will provide them with everything they need anyways?

Or maybe for some kind of karmic thought, that we give this and that to God, and he will give us back, multiplied.

Blessings.

Im not quite sure wot you mean by the hebrews. But in the old testament they have stories about people willing

to sacrifice their children. Total trust- no children or bad breeding stock among the sheep. Cute gods/ cute demands.:frusty:

Yes I meant from what you can read in the bible. I'm grown up with the bible, and know it fairly well. Something I'm very happy for, because much of it is very useful if you can read it with open mind. Actually I can not imagine how it could be interesting at all if you don't.

Well, the hebrews in the bible sacrificed a perfect (the best) male lamb to god.

And yes, there is the story about none else than Abraham, who God told to sacrifice Isaac(Isak), his only son who also was a gift from god (Abraham and his wife where in fact to old to have children, so Isaac was some kind of wonderchild). This is a very interesting story with a lot of room for interpretation.

http://www.journeywithjesus.net/Essays/AbrahamSacrificesIsaac_Rembrandt_sm.jpg

Actually he already had Ishmael as a firstborn son, but certain manipulations are worked to make that part of the story recede into the background. One fifth of the world's population is very aware of that fact however.

Back to sacrifices now. :eek:

[Second Son]

When I read about the non-corporeal entities referred to as "archons", who cannot create per se, but are a sort of inter-dimensional counterfeiter... they sound eerily similar to the reptiods, who must steal a host body. The African continent is full of myths about shape-shifting reptilians who "take over" the tribal leader, stealing his throne, his wife, and his power.

[Maria Stade]

Yaldaboath would be the head archon... also know as Yahweh.

These entities are not true gods, but more like what we ould call a "demi-urge" in that they cannot create from nothing. According to the Nag Hammadi texts they could only copy what was already made manifest by Sophia.

Why would people give power and energy away to somthing that dont even have a own body !

4D cretures copies of 3D beings ?

[Second Son]

Speaking of Africa...


If one takes a look at the practice of cannibalism in Africa, which probably predates the cultures and practices of Central and South America, they will find that it is not just about eating the victim... it is about a long chase and instilling fear, so that the body releases a cascade of endorphins into the bloodstream FIRST. Then the bodily fluids are more useful to the 'gods' and are said to be able to allow them to manifest here on earth. The reality is, when hunting for non-human game, the last thing you want is to chase your prey, because those same chemicals make the meat tough and gamey.

[Ahkenaten]

yes and some have said that this is but the old and ancient battle between Enki and Enlil/Nergal carried on into the present disguised under other names

and yeah rather than chasing your game down you scare the living by-&&&&(((^%^#^ out of hm instead - the adrenaline and corticol acts as a meat tenderizer!

[jorr lundstrom]

Yaldaboath would be the head archon... also know as Yahweh.

These entities are not true gods, but more like what we ould call a "demi-urge" in that they cannot create from nothing. According to the Nag Hammadi texts they could only copy what was already made manifest by Sophia.

Yes, a demiurge. But this could offend a lot of people if this was common knowledge. As we know they like to present him as the

creator of the whole universe and a little bit more. So dont tell anybody and dont let it get to PD.

[Maria Stade]

Lord Sidious
The life force, it is in the blood.
Why do you think they usually want to drain the blood and/or take the heart?

Life force in the blood, I heard that the heart contains gold could that be the resaon for that act ?

How do they benefit from gold ?

[Second Son]

Yaldaboath would be the head archon... also know as Yahweh.

These entities are not true gods, but more like what we ould call a "demi-urge" in that they cannot create from nothing. According to the Nag Hammadi texts they could only copy what was already made manifest by Sophia.

Why would people give power and energy away to somthing that dont even have a own body !

4D cretures copies of 3D beings ?

These entities are powerful in their own right. They have learned to navigate through various dimensions, and they are extremely knowledgable in the architecture or structure of space and time. In days gone by they would have been the black magicians. Today they have offered this knowledge (technology) to the highest 'bidder', but remember they hve NO need for money. So... in our case (America) they have been given carte blanche to doo all of the genetic experiments on our population that they wish. They are alowed to continue this new form of sacrifice even today.

[jorr lundstrom]

Yaldaboath would be the head archon... also know as Yahweh.

These entities are not true gods, but more like what we ould call a "demi-urge" in that they cannot create from nothing. According to the Nag Hammadi texts they could only copy what was already made manifest by Sophia.

I agree...they could only "create" a false reality, like putting a "virus into the program".

Yes, but if they are responsible they make us imagine that we are something we are not and never will

be, so we dont see the magnificant beings we are. Tricky guys. :nod:

[Lord Sidious]

Yaldaboath would be the head archon... also know as Yahweh.

These entities are not true gods, but more like what we ould call a "demi-urge" in that they cannot create from nothing. According to the Nag Hammadi texts they could only copy what was already made manifest by Sophia.

Why would people give power and energy away to somthing that dont even have a own body !

4D cretures copies of 3D beings ?

The same reason they do many things, deception and that is something the archons specialise in.


yes and some have said that this is but the old and ancient battle between Enki and Enlil/Nergil carried on into the present disguised under other names

and yeah rather than chasing your game down you scare the living by-&&&&(((^%^#^ out of hm instead - the adrenaline and corticol acts as a meat tenderizer!

It is.
Some say that world war two is a continuation of world war one.
But they would be wrong, they are all parts of the old wars that you read about in the vedas.

I don't know that it tenderises the meat inasmuch that it releases chemicals into the blood and muscles that these entities need for some purpose.



Lord Sidious
The life force, it is in the blood.
Why do you think they usually want to drain the blood and/or take the heart?

Life force in the blood, I heard that the heart contains gold could that be the resaon for that act ?

How do they benefit from gold ?

I don't know about gold, I would say they want the life force, one of the most powerful forces there is.

[Belle]

According to Jay Weidner:

"One thing that is certain is that the Archons hate more than anything after love is courage. They cannot stand up to courage or a clear, articulate debate because their own premises are built entirely on falsity. It’s all false and so we can begin deconstructing history by seeing through the lies. By observing outside the box, outside the norm, you can see the tricks of the Archons. Everything they do is fake, it is not real and has no history, no veracity. It is always a parasitical living off others."....

...."Solving the Archon problem may very well be the test. The final test of humanity is can you define the Archon problem and solve it? The thing that will solve the Archon dilemma more than anything is to love each other unconditionally. That just drives them out of their minds. They cannot stand familial love or the love between men and women and that’s why they do all these things to destroy the pureness of it."

[Second Son]

Very true jorr.

They want us to think we are a war-mongering and base people. When in fact we are beautiful, powerful beings.

¤=[Post Update]=¤

The Nag Hammadi codex actually gives certain prayers to combat against the archons, and protect oneself from possession.

[Lord Sidious]

According to Jay Weidner:

"One thing that is certain is that the Archons hate more than anything after love is courage. They cannot stand up to courage or a clear, articulate debate because their own premises are built entirely on falsity. It’s all false and so we can begin deconstructing history by seeing through the lies. By observing outside the box, outside the norm, you can see the tricks of the Archons. Everything they do is fake, it is not real and has no history, no veracity. It is always a parasitical living off others."....
...."Solving the Archon problem may very well be the test. The final test of humanity is can you define the Archon problem and solve it? The thing that will solve the Archon dilemma more than anything is to love each other unconditionally. That just drives them out of their minds. They cannot stand familial love or the love between men and women and that’s why they do all these things to destroy the pureness of it."

Isn't that a description of the movie The Matrix?
Hint, hint.

[Ahkenaten]

and the degree of power the dark 'beings' or forces have over us is measured precisely by the degree to which we buy into the self-hatred and destructive state of mind that is eating us alive..............whether the dark beings are but projections of ours or separate entities in the end does not matter. They can be defeated by not providing them with the dark energy they feed off of. Without the sacrifices they will starve.

[Second Son]

No wonder the Gnostics were systematically purged from Judea. They were the holders of the REAL knowledge. They were the only people who had not just the courage and love to fight back against this invisible foe, they also had the knowledge.

As Christianity became the "religion du jour" and was sanctioned by Rome as a tool of conquest, this new brand of monotheism was already taken over from the inside by the archontic forces. If you think the Catholic child abuse scandal is big, look behind the scenes and you will be treated to a picture right out of Central America. These "men of god" have never STOPPED sacrificing humans since the dawn of time.

[Belle]

Maybe we could do something truly incredible with all this energy for it is phenomenally destructive and thus could be phenomenally constructive if redirected using the law of correspondences.

What is the "law of correspondences"?

[Second Son]

Hey Sid...

I firmly beleive that the Matrix trilogy is an example of "art imitating life".

[Lord Sidious]

Hey Sid...

I firmly beleive that the Matrix trilogy is an example of "art imitating life".

I would have to agree.

[Belle]

I watched the video on Red Ice Creations of Barbara Hand Clow. In it, she talks of Marcian of Tortona (an early follower of Jesus), who says something to the effect that the teaching of Jesus should never have been placed within the Old Testament...that when Jesus spoke of the "one true God", he did not mean Yahweh as we are led to believe by the connection between the two writings.

[modwiz]

Very good question.

I'm kinda thinking it might not be so much about the sacrifice itself, but the conscious (consciousness) behind the decision. The making of a decision and "owning it", causing it to happen.

You really own it if it's a big sacrifice like your best cow, versus a bouquet of flowers thrown onto the sacrificial fire.

Consciousness...intention...focus...strength (if it's a biggy), and the ability to take it to completion.

I would venture to say this 'excercise' expands our consciousness.

Yes, the kick of power in the one who sacrifice. But wot about the reciever?:director:



Hello all, I guess it is time for me to posit my understandings here. I chose to the above quotes to reply with because they represent the two sides of the coin. Slvrfx captures the concept of self sacrifice very neatly in her post. Nice consonant usage there slvrfx, very magical BTW. Her explanation touches on what possible noble aspect of sacrifice might exist.

I would also like to acknowledge whitehaze for pointing out that executions are sacrifices, with their rituals. They are still public in many parts of the world and this is to produce and boost the darker emotional aspects of our psyches that the parasitic 4th dimensional entities feed on and use to cross the threshhold of the 3-D world. I

The death penalty and the legal framework to remove it as a category of murder all derives from the "gods" and their laws. The "thou shall not kill" commandment is in fact, "thou shall not murder". Ask a rabbi, or watch one tell you on the History Channel when this commandment comes up. Murder is a legal term, which means that if a killer has the backing of state or legal authority it is not murder and therefore not punishable under "The Law" or Torah or whatever "divine" BS is your flavor. Wholesale slaughter of cities with all of their inhabitants were not murderous because they had divine sanction and were therefore legal. Just killing.

But wot about the receiver Jorr asks?

Newlynn was the one who seemed to be on the right track here. Although I suspect Jorr is already working with a similar answer and is asking us what, or wot, we think.

I have dated a Santeria priestess and known preists of the same religion. They use the various animal sacrifices, also eaten as food, to help their gods, or Orishas as they are known, to have enough energy to possess followers. This is referred to as "mounting". You are mounted or ridden by the Orisha. Drummers are very important in these rituals becasue the various Orishas have their own distinct rhythms that call them near and then the animals life force and the blood containing the same is released. The blood is poured over ritually significant objects that "feed" the spirit they wish to have mount them. This is all part of the ceremony and multiple mountings often occur. When one is initiated there is a primary and secondary Orisha you are consecrated to. The primary one is determined by which of the two mounts you during this initiation. The woman I was with was mounted by Chango a fire diety and she put hot coals into her mouth without harm during her mounting. Her secondary Orisha was Oshun a goddess of sweet (fresh) waters. This made swimming in lakes and other things tricky for her as she blonged to Her and being in the water could be seen as consent for her to be "taken". The ocean had no such issue. Yemaya ( also Jemaja or Yemaja ) has dominion over the oceans.

The various gods of old who are still around and fed by Luciferics and there baser companions, the satanists, use animal sacrifice also but humans provide the real deal and commitment needed to prove their fealty. People who kill other people with witnesses have a bond that keeps them together. These sacrifices work on multiple levels as you can see. Public sacrifices/executions had two roles to play. The people who were horrified fed more energy into this sickening matrix and the ones who were fascinated or even non plussed helped because they provided the stabilty for these acts to be considered "respectable". The framework for bloodletting and/or killing was put into place.

One of the objectives of the many human sacrifices that take place a minimum of 9 times a year in almost every town in Illuminati territory, ( that is almost all of the western world, if not all ),
is to enable a spirit to manifest in the presence of the ritualists. It is taken as a sign of job/ritual well done and a certain favor being shown. Things can get interesting.

Slaughterhouses are huge sources of energy for these beings as a black miasma of horrific and calculating death pours out of them. Hunting is more personal and is not a real source of energy for them and if you decide to bond withthe spirit of the animal then you get that energy for yourself. Many warriors would claim a portion of their slain for there own also.

So, in summation, all sacrifice of humans and animals is to feed negative entities who are cut off from Source and need that energy to sustain their parasitic existence.

Enjoy your meals

[Second Son]

I don't think it is quite that simple Ahk...

We have billions of Catholics and Muslims, which are both dooms day cults if you ask me, and we are supposed to "positive think" our way out of this? The problem being THEY have the numbers, AND the religious dogma which tells them that the end times armegeddon is a good thing a "GOD" thing. I don't think a rag-tag band of new agers is going to compete with that. BUT on the personal level we can live in love, compassion, and courage, and hopefully at least save ourselves. At the very least we won't be feeding the fire.

[Ahkenaten]

Belle the idea of the law of correspondences is supposed to be a basic law underlying magickal practices and is why certain things like curses (that is a very crude example) work...................I believe this law taps into a 'physics' that relates to how creation works.....in other words if you set in motion something that resonates to something else....................then a set result will occur. That is a very rough approximation. Anyway -- there are some who believe that the Egyptians used a degraded form of an earlier science based on the law of correspondences to do magic that actually resulted in the degradation and downfall of their civilization. The law of correspondences also underpinned the experiment I described in which the schematic drawing of a machine actually worked the exact same way the actual physically constructed machine worked. In other words it is all in the underlying energetics. Sorry for the crude attempts to describe a very obscure concept. But it is all embodied in the statement AS ABOVE SO BELOW

[jorr lundstrom]

I watched the video on Red Ice Creations of Barbara Hand Clow. In it, she talks of Marcian of Tortona (an early follower of Jesus), who says something to the effect that the teaching of Jesus should never have been placed within the Old Testament...that when Jesus spoke of the "one true God", he did not mean Yahweh as we are led to believe by the connection between the two writings.

I noted that too. The old and new testament should never been linked. :hurt:

[Lord Sidious]

I watched the video on Red Ice Creations of Barbara Hand Clow. In it, she talks of Marcian of Tortona (an early follower of Jesus), who says something to the effect that the teaching of Jesus should never have been placed within the Old Testament...that when Jesus spoke of the "one true God", he did not mean Yahweh as we are led to believe by the connection between the two writings.

Go get a bible and compare the two testaments for yourself.
In the old one, the god tells his chosen to go out and destroy tribes, take their land and their property.
In one example, he demands they remove the foreskins of the dead as proof they had done what they were told.
Now, go to the new one and read what jesus says his god tells people.
If that isn't obvious enough that you are dealing with two different entities, I don't know how much more is needed to show that.

[Ahkenaten]

I don't think it is quite that simple Ahk...

We have billions of Catholics and Muslims, which are both dooms day cults if you ask me, and we are supposed to "positive think" our way out of this? The problem being THEY have the numbers, AND the religious dogma which tells them that the end times armegeddon is a good thing a "GOD" thing. I don't think a rag-tag band of new agers is going to compete with that. BUT on the personal level we can live in love, compassion, and courage, and hopefully at least save ourselves. At the very least we won't be feeding the fire.

I never recommended a new age approach. We do not have to participate in ritual killing.

I guess we can blame the Council on Nicea for merging old and new testament scriptures and editing out all info related to reincarnation they didn't like......

[Second Son]

Proof positive that the archontic forces took over christianity very early on. Perhaps Jesus or Emanuel (if he existed) actually knew of this, and was completely anti status quo because of it. He wanted to usher in a new era of personal responsibility, sovereignty, egalitarianism, and universal love... you know how THAT ended.

[Second Son]

I don't think it is quite that simple Ahk...

We have billions of Catholics and Muslims, which are both dooms day cults if you ask me, and we are supposed to "positive think" our way out of this? The problem being THEY have the numbers, AND the religious dogma which tells them that the end times armegeddon is a good thing a "GOD" thing. I don't think a rag-tag band of new agers is going to compete with that. BUT on the personal level we can live in love, compassion, and courage, and hopefully at least save ourselves. At the very least we won't be feeding the fire.


I never recommended a new age approach. We do not have to participate in ritual killing.

I guess we can blame the Council on Nicea for merging old and new testament scriptures and editing out all info related to reincarnation they didn't like......

I totally agree with your previous post, I just can't picture 1.1 billion catholics (and even more muslims) renouncing their religions overnight. Some how we have to study these mysteries and learn how to play the entire game differently.

[Belle]

Thanks for starting this thread, Jorr. Very interesting and thought provoking.

[jorr lundstrom]

Oh, Gaia.

http://i600.photobucket.com/albums/tt81/sakasvattaja/EWKmoderjord.jpg

[Ahkenaten]

Wouldn't it be radical if the media started openly referring to all the war-related deaths as sacrifices - THAT sure would be an eye-opener. For example reporting various battles and casualties as numbers sacrificed listing the hoped for results - better crops, wealth for the "victors" higher fertility rates for the winners, etc. etc. all proportional, or course to the numbers of deaths and amount of suffering involved. THAT sure would be a paradigm-shifter. I am sure that no one would openly want to be associated with such "primitive" practices!! Then the same reverse psychology could be applied to human-caused 'natural' disasters like the Gulf Oil Spill - I can see the headline now

"EXPERTS ANTICIPATE WINDFALL PROFITS DIRECTLY PROPORTIONAL TO DEATH, MAYHEM AND SUFFERING CAUSED BY THE GULF OIL SPILL" (feel free to substitute your favorite disaster, etc. as well as article text)

or

'THE GODS HAVE ANNOUNCED THEY ARE VERY PLEASED WITH THE RECENT SACRIFICE OF X WARRIORS AND CIVILIANS AND PROMISE TO CONVEY (AT SOME UNDEFINED POINT TO BE DETERMINED AT THE GODS' SOLE DISCRETION) TO THE COMPLIANT WORSHIPPERS X TONS OF BARLEY, X TONS OF RICE, X TONS OF CHICKEN FEED, AND X TONS OF BRAND NEW HUMVEES'

I will leave the headline and text of the article related to the recent Japan earthquake/tsunami/nuke disaster to your imagination - the sky is the limit!!

[Belle]

I totally agree with your previous post, I just can't picture 1.1 billion catholics (and even more muslims) renouncing their religions overnight. Some how we have to study these mysteries and learn how to play the entire game differently.

It is happening, Second Son, albeit slowly. I work in a Catholic church, a very liberal Catholic church I must add, and people are questioning everything. A group of us are trying to help it along...an agnostic, a Reiki healer, a pagan, etc. all of us awakened working together to answer questions. Just take a look at the ninja nun...

I don't expect many will renounce their "religion", but rather work to help others within its walls.

[jorr lundstrom]

Wouldn't it be radical if the media started openly referring to all the deaths as sacrifices - THAT sure would be an eye-opener. For example reporting various battles and casualties as numbers sacrificed listing the hoped for results - better crops, wealth for the "victors" higher fertility rates for the winners, etc. etc. THAT sure would be a paradigm-shifter. I am sure that no one would openly want to be associated with such "primitive" practices!!

Good idea, the job is to find a media who want to commit seppuku:first:.

[Second Son]

Good work Belle... keep it up!

[Lord Sidious]

I totally agree with your previous post, I just can't picture 1.1 billion catholics (and even more muslims) renouncing their religions overnight. Some how we have to study these mysteries and learn how to play the entire game differently.

It is happening, Second Son, albeit slowly. I work in a Catholic church, a very liberal Catholic church I must add, and people are questioning everything. A group of us are trying to help it along...an agnostic, a Reiki healer, a pagan, etc. all of us awakened working together to answer questions. Just take a look at the ninja nun...

I don't expect many will renounce their "religion", but rather work to help others within its walls.

May the gods guide your words, actions and deeds in your tasks.

[Belle]

Thanks, Lord Sidious. Keep us in mind this Saturday night. The pastor has allowed us to invite a group of muslims for an evening of discussion, and the response has been overwhelming.

:focus:

[Teakai]

Hi Jorr - I think that any god requiring sacrifice is a needy god and nothing to do with Truth.
:)

[Lord Sidious]

Thanks, Lord Sidious. Keep us in mind this Saturday night. The pastor has allowed us to invite a group of muslims for an evening of discussion, and the response has been overwhelming.

Can I give you some advice then?
Don't offer the muslims any Jack Daniels.
Send it to me
c/o Emperor Palpatine
Coruscant.

[jorr lundstrom]

I totally agree with your previous post, I just can't picture 1.1 billion catholics (and even more muslims) renouncing their religions overnight. Some how we have to study these mysteries and learn how to play the entire game differently.

It is happening, Second Son, albeit slowly. I work in a Catholic church, a very liberal Catholic church I must add, and people are questioning everything. A group of us are trying to help it along...an agnostic, a Reiki healer, a pagan, etc. all of us awakened working together to answer questions. Just take a look at the ninja nun...

I don't expect many will renounce their "religion", but rather work to help others within its walls.

No, probably they wont renounce their religions. People seem to be posessed by the habit of clinging to different

ideas that give them a false sence of security. Because the religions promises but never deliver.:angel:

¤=[Post Update]=¤


Hi Jorr - I think that any god requiring sacrifice is a needy god and nothing to do with Truth.
:)

Teakai, I agree. A needy god seem like a contradiction.:nod:

[Belle]

It's kind of like working undercover, Jorr. If they think you are one of them, they are more likely to be open and listen to what you have to say.

It has a lot to do with loving them right where they are...being the love, not the religion.

[jorr lundstrom]

It's kind of like working undercover, Jorr. If they think you are one of them, they are more likely to be open and listen to what you have to say.

Yes, I suppose people can support each other but I cant see wy one should involve the church.

But if it is there that the people has landed I suppose one has to start from there. I have no difficulties

walking into a church and out again. I just think they are manifestations of human stupidity. We have many

old churches in Sweden, build from money whipped out of the congregations, during the centuries when

plain people had enormous difficulties to get enough food. But we must build an enormous building to

the glory of Jehova. Halleluja. :amen: Well, as long as no priest steps into my kitchen I am nice. LOL

[Teakai]

Teakai, I agree. A needy god seem like a contradiction.:nod:

Julius Caesar was called a god. The word gets batted around a lot and has a broad scope of definition.

[Agape]

Wouldn't it be radical if the media started openly referring to all the war-related deaths as sacrifices - THAT sure would be an eye-opener. For example reporting various battles and casualties as numbers sacrificed listing the hoped for results - better crops, wealth for the "victors" higher fertility rates for the winners, etc. etc. all proportional, or course to the numbers of deaths and amount of suffering involved. THAT sure would be a paradigm-shifter. I am sure that no one would openly want to be associated with such "primitive" practices!! Then the same reverse psychology could be applied to human-caused 'natural' disasters like the Gulf Oil Spill - I can see the headline now

My thoughts. I think it's about what's going on here...we keep sacrificing people , sometimes by millions ..

There's the primitivism of human fear involved, very old fear, something to do with statistical probability of natural calamities and unrecognized patterns of repetition in them all.

I was astonished to realize that the nuclear disaster has taken place exactly in Japan , the first victim of nuclear power in recent history ,
about the same time I saw Russian and US prime ministers shaking their hands in post-cold-war treaty ..

Does the history repeat itself and why ..Wrong question again but deeply embibed to our subconscious .

Millions sacrificed at time of both wars for the sake of eugenics , and why do the armies still exist on all sides .




If we consider these people had been sacrificed to the cause of human awareness , the only chance there's that the world will be awakened ..

[jorr lundstrom]

Agape:
If we consider these people had been sacrificed to the cause of human awareness ,
the only chance there's that the world will be awakened ..

Yes, but its not easy to keep the balance between the glory and the horror being here now.:wub::shout:

[Second Son]

I hate to be the one who takes this topic back to that of sacrifice... but....

I think it is essential to point out that the most heinous, most sadistic, evil people throughout history have ALWAYS been of this "chosen" bloodline. To return briefly to Vlad Tepes III, "The Impaler"... he once sacrificed 20,000 victims at one time, giving the Aztecs a run for their money! At that time the Hungarian kingdom was the last bulwark against the Ottoman Turks to the south (Muslims) and Vlad was a fair weather ally of the Hungarians. The Hungarian king, Sigismund, was at the time the Holy Roman Emperor. It was Vlad's father, Vlad the II, who, having shown much bravery in fighting the Turks, was given the provence of Wallachia, AND the title "Dracul", when he was admitted into the fraternal order of knights known as the "Order of the Dragon" by the king. Interestingly enough the word "drac" also means "devil" in Romanian, so for Vlad, it had a double meaning to be sure.

One would think that for the title of both monarchs and knights of that time to also mean "devil"... well there are two possible explainations:

1) That the ruling class of that time and place were so evil and sadistic, that the name started out as word for titled gentry, and morphed into that for the devil, or:

2) That this fraternal order, knowing their own sinister intentions, borrowed the name for themslves, showing ruthless disregard (to put it lightly) for the mental and physical (as was definitely the case with Vlad the III) well being of those they ruled.

Another sick case of the ruling class "elite" showing that they have no empathy, compassion or decency. No moral compass whatsoever... And yes, I agree that all of the modern warfare of today is just this same cabal, running the show, and it is "business as usual"

Peace out.

[Agape]

Agape:
If we consider these people had been sacrificed to the cause of human awareness ,
the only chance there's that the world will be awakened ..

Yes, but its not easy to keep the balance between the glory and the horror being here now.:wub::shout:

No, not easy to keep cool in the face of any such enormous suffering . It can feel unbearable to me .

:hug:

[Ahkenaten]

On the subject of sacrifice the thread on the dialogue between Krishnamurti and David Boem has something at about 56 minutes into it that is, I think pertinent to this discussion ( http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?17783-Krishnamurti-and-Prof-David-Bohm )

and that is that the 'problem' with us that leads inevitably to things like sacrifices and all the other bad stuff is - according to Krishnamurti, our very thought process itself. The thought process is not only conflict riven, being driven by a sense of linear, sequential 'time' - but in fact is the actual perpetuator of CONFLICT. And - sacrifices are only one manifestation of this elemental conflict in our nature. If we are to get to a place where we are beyond things like sacrifice, we WILL NOT GET THERE BY THINKING - because it is the mechanism of human thought that actually perpetuates, according to Krishnamurti, the elemental conflict in our lives.

And so - again, according to Krishnamurti - these discussions, based upon thoughts, will only lead us in circles, perpetuating conflict - and in this case, ironically - sacrifices.

In order to get to that other place we must stop time itself, and - as some would put it, put ourselves into a space where the "observer and the observed are one." This state has been 'achieved' by some - though the word achieved is misleading.

It takes special study, aptitude and resonance to one who has realized this to 'get there'............and I am not talking about a place.
I am talking about a way of being.

And perhaps that is why conflict ironically has only increased as we have developed technologically - we do not yet understand that we cannot think our way out of this problem.
It may well be that even AI, because it is based upon linearity and memory, is inevitably conflict-riven as we are, reflecting its creators - US - and so that will not save us either.

We must find another way - and in fact this has been done by others in the past and is being done now. When thought and time ends - our conflicted mind will stop creating this chaos.

[Belle]

My apologies to all for unintentionally derailing this thread. I've pm'd a mod to see what can be done about it...but it might turn out to be another lesson learned. I'd really like to say that the Archons made me do it! but it was all my own fault. So sorry.

[modwiz]

But why would the gods in various traditions specifically demand human sacrifices and sacrifices of animals? Even getting very specific about the manner in which the bodies were to be cut up and displayed on the altar? Even if the 'gods' are but projections of ourselves, why the detail? Why are these specifically required in order to show proper thanks, subservience, respect, obedience, fear, etc. to the 'gods' or to our dark side for that matter? ('scapegoats' being proxies for human sacrifices?)

Actually this question is a good one. In the case of the Levite priests they set it up so that the god only wanted fat and other undesirable parts while the priests got the meat. It was clear that the priests wanted the good stuff too. Jacob/Israel had less than kind things to say about this part of his family.

So the specificity of dismemberment will give clues as to the gastronomical proclivities of the priests. The priestly class generally lead some form of parasitic existence.

I like the concept of giving ten percent (tithing, another priestly scam) of my earnings to those other than myself but not to priests.

[modwiz]

No wonder the Gnostics were systematically purged from Judea. They were the holders of the REAL knowledge. They were the only people who had not just the courage and love to fight back against this invisible foe, they also had the knowledge.

As Christianity became the "religion du jour" and was sanctioned by Rome as a tool of conquest, this new brand of monotheism was already taken over from the inside by the archontic forces. If you think the Catholic child abuse scandal is big, look behind the scenes and you will be treated to a picture right out of Central America. These "men of god" have never STOPPED sacrificing humans since the dawn of time.

The Cathars were keepers of a Gnostic tradition and that is why the Albigensian Crusade wiped them out. Although professed christians the Cathar beliefs clashed with Rome and they were considered heretics. The Inquisition was largely to wipe out the remaining pockets of these beliefs.

[Agape]

I think it has gravely something to do with our human ancestors who accidentally ate each other at times of scarce sources of nutrition on earth . It's a reminiscence of their cannibalism .

I don't think they're tasty in any CASE :lol:

[modwiz]

Maybe we could do something truly incredible with all this energy for it is phenomenally destructive and thus could be phenomenally constructive if redirected using the law of correspondences.

What is the "law of correspondences"?

Unfortunately the energies of fear, terror and murder will find no positive applications in a magical way.

[Teakai]

That is a great topic! What is a good sacrifice? :)

Ego. No other is necessary.

:)

[Second Son]

Amen Mod!

They were waaaaay too advanced for the dogmatic patriarchal pricks at the Vatican. They had orphanages, academies, hospitals (free ones), and were teaching women to become priests. Here it is about 700 years later and those in charge of the church are still dragging their feet on this stuff.

[Agape]

Magical action eh I've heard they threaten to close the White House . Will they listen to me not to do it ?

[Revere]

It takes special study, aptitude and resonance to one who has realized this to 'get there'............and I am not talking about a place.
I am talking about a way of being.

And perhaps that is why conflict ironically has only increased as we have developed technologically - we do not yet understand that we cannot think our way out of this problem.
It may well be that even AI, because it is based upon linearity and memory, is inevitably conflict-riven as we are, reflecting its creators - US - and so that will not save us either.

We must find another way - and in fact this has been done by others in the past and is being done now. When thought and time ends - our conflicted mind will stop creating this chaos.

Interesting. In almost a roundabout way the above statement seems to almost be a call for faith and a need for grace, possibly from Source or for me God. I know that this is about sacrifice but, it would be truly interesting to now see the concepts of good and evil discussed as they relate to sacrifice. Is motive just a continuum or does it cross a threshold and a line into two opposing absolutes?

Very interesting everyone! Really. Thanks.

Peace,
-R-

[Lord Sidious]

No wonder the Gnostics were systematically purged from Judea. They were the holders of the REAL knowledge. They were the only people who had not just the courage and love to fight back against this invisible foe, they also had the knowledge.

As Christianity became the "religion du jour" and was sanctioned by Rome as a tool of conquest, this new brand of monotheism was already taken over from the inside by the archontic forces. If you think the Catholic child abuse scandal is big, look behind the scenes and you will be treated to a picture right out of Central America. These "men of god" have never STOPPED sacrificing humans since the dawn of time.

The Cathars were keepers of a Gnostic tradition and that is why the Albigensian Crusade wiped them out. Although professed christians the Cathar beliefs clashed with Rome and they were considered heretics. The Inquisition was largely to wipe out the remaining pockets of these beliefs.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zGZKui5SRyo

You might find that interesting, speaking of cathars.

[slvrfx]

Something to think about-

I took a higher level English class which was literature on the Vampire. The professor was from Romania, within 50 miles of Vlad the Impaler's stomping ground.

He spent the first class explaining how history paints this ruler as a blood-thirsty, evil, less than human, demon-from-hell, and how those completely erroneous ideas are what history teaches.

He was in fact, a very powerful ruler of the most wealthiest countriy in all of Europe, and a portion of Asia. His country was the major trade route between East and West.

Because his country was so wealthy and powerful, it was constantly being attacked by other countries who wanted the wealth.

He was defending his country and his people. What ruler would not?

(Most of the history we've been taught, is a lie, by those who have an agenda, and that is to keep the truth hidden about the true history of the planet.)

I was not surprised by what he was telling us, for I was already well into my ancient history research.

Like my mom told me when I was just a young girl, there's always at least 3-4 ways of looking at things. Don't ever assume what you've been told is the truth, especially when it comes to commonly held beliefs.

Question everything. Always look at 'who has the most to gain'.

(I also took an English Lit class on Gypsies. Another eye-opener.)

[wynderer]

http://i600.photobucket.com/albums/tt81/sakasvattaja/Winged_craft_similar_to_Anunnaki.jpg

I find the idea of sacrifice hard to understand. I realize that humans have sacrified

a lot of different stuff for a very long time. It seem to be build on an idea that

gods( wot that is) and different entities dwelling in 4D or higher should be pleased

with sacrifices or hostile if they dont get. Humans have sacrificed humans, burnt

flesh, blood, energy of different forms, candles, incent, fruit, flowers and so on

and on............

But why? Is there some kind of consious bargin in it? Wot will happen if we just

stop? Is it just a stupid habit?

Can you help me to find out wot its all about?:ranger:

imo -- the Reptilians feed on both the physical blood & the fear & suffering of the victim, both animal & human -- the idea of sacrifice being pleasing to the 'gods' is one of the early & great successes of the mind control of Humans -- the act of sacrifice also desensitizes the viewers, & cuts them off from compassion & thus their souls

it beats me how any thinking human could believe that a loving Creator wants a trembling terrified child, animal, or adult [tho frequently the victims were drugged first] to have his/her throat slit or heart ripped out -- but the Reptilians apparently learned long ago how easy Humans are to manipulate

[jorr lundstrom]

My apologies to all for unintentionally derailing this thread. I've pm'd a mod to see what can be done about it...but it might turn out to be another lesson learned. I'd really like to say that the Archons made me do it! but it was all my own fault. So sorry.

Belle. I see all your contributions as essential parts of this thread. Everything is presented as

it is for a reason. So please do not remove anything.:ranger: :kiss:

[jorr lundstrom]

Wynderer:
imo -- the Reptilians feed on both the physical blood & the fear & suffering of the victim, both animal & human -- the idea of sacrifice being pleasing to the 'gods' is one of the early & great successes of the mind control of Humans -- the act of sacrifice also desensitizes the viewers, & cuts them off from compassion & thus their souls

it beats me how any thinking human could believe that a loving Creator wants a trembling terrified child, animal, or adult [tho frequently the victims were drugged first] to have his/her throat slit or heart ripped out -- but the Reptilians apparently learned long ago how easy Humans are to manipulate


Spot on. I appreciate your conclusions. Yeah, its really stupid. :der:

[aikisaw]

What does the person who offers the sacrifice get out of the deal? The person who offers up the child, or animal to the gods. It seems they are left with feelings of contribution to the greater good/gods.

It is just another twist of the mind that you gave something, when, you actually destroyed something.

[jorr lundstrom]

What does the person who offers the sacrifice get out of the deal? The person who offers up the child, or animal to the gods. It seems they are left with feelings of contribution to the greater good/gods.

It is just another twist of the mind that you gave something, when, you actually destroyed something.

That was another rather twisted view but of course one way of picturing a loss as a

great contribution. How imaginative we are. ;)

[aikisaw]

What does the person who offers the sacrifice get out of the deal? The person who offers up the child, or animal to the gods. It seems they are left with feelings of contribution to the greater good/gods.

It is just another twist of the mind that you gave something, when, you actually destroyed something.

That was another rather twisted view but of course one way of picturing a loss as a

great contribution. How imaginative we are. ;)

Twisted ....maybe. I view some aspects of religious ritual as a mechanical function. The catholic idea of confession would be the best example. You get to review your life, talk to someone about where you came up short. You perform the penance and are forgiven. You got to unburden your personal shortcomings and start fresh. Today we call it going to the psychiatrist. It simply serves as a function to help you move on. Given the guilt that churches have laid on people if this function did not exist people could not have moved on with life.

If you look at sacrifice through the same glasses, everybody gets to contribute to the greater good of the tribe/group. The best cow is a relative thing but all is needed is your best.

I'm not saying I agree with the idea and I think it has caused much harm. It has been done for a long time. The people who continue to give something to this process had to get something from it. My humble opinion.

[Belle]

There is a difference between "Lord" and the true God. Do you know who it is you are calling "Lord"? And it is the "Lord" who asks for sacrifice.

The following is taken from http://www.hypertiger.blogspot.com/

“...You Farmer are on the Land owned by the LORD of the land and will pay tribute to the LORD of 1 Gold coin a year...

Where do I get this GOLD coin?

You can take one short ton of grain to the grainery of the LORD and there you will be given a GOLD coin for it and then you can give the gold coin to the servant of the LORD...

What if I refuse?

Then the LORD will drive you from the Land that the LORD is the LORD of...

There you go an abundant supply of free food to power your wildest hopes and dreams...Lies and delusions...

22 And the LORD said, Behold! The man has become as one of Us, to know good and evil. And now, lest he put forth his hand and also take from the Tree of Life, and eat, and live forever,
23 The LORD sent him out of the garden of Eden to till the ground out of which he was taken.
24 And He drove the man out. And He lodged the cherubs at the east of the Garden of Eden, and the flaming sword whirling around to guard the way of the Tree of Life.

Well what is done with all that Food the tillers of the LORD's land give the LORD as Tribute?

It powers the Absolute capitalist Hierarchial food powered make work enterprise...

The city state...Or Civilization...”

“...The top know how to construct what you all call civilization from the dirt up.

You all don't.

You all have been socially engineered with mental and moral barriers that cause you all to be unable to.

The people that created the first one 1000's of years ago did not worry about offending the LORD.

Because there was no LORD until the first one.

Everything you all think you know was told to you by the top...The top taught you all how to read...write...do math...and how to think.

The top knows the difference between Truth and lies because the top has told all the lies you currently think, hope, and believe are Truth....”

[Ahkenaten]

Yes and Nelson Rockefeller stood in front of a bunch of wooly plaid-flannel-shirt wearing students at SUNY Stony Brook Long Island in the sixties and said contemptuously that the students wouldn't even have the wherewithall to stand there in front of him, let alone protest anything, if it weren't for the State Education System set up by his family. Same old same old. And for that - believe me, they do demand that we SACRIFICE our people in return for all they have so generously done for (to) us. It is called homage, fealty, bonded servitude, slavery, whatever you chose to call it. The rules are the same, made, handed down and enforced by the same people - as has been the case for thousands of years. Had enough yet?

[Second Son]

I have been thinking about reading the bible with all of this new data in mind...
I believe the new testament is about claiming our own true sovereignty, and getting out from under all the tithing, and prostrating to those at the top.
I must admit though, that the book itself gives me the heebie jeebies :eek: Did I spell that right?

[Ahkenaten]

I would highly recommend reading the Bible from cover to cover for anyone wishing to understand current events......various threads in the Bible unfortunately provide the context for much of what is going on today in the world, especially concerning the Middle East. Get ready for a big shock. Some of the language and scenes are not only graphic but also surrealistic beyond most people's imaginings (especially Genesis) - make sure to be patient and read the lineages............that bears heavily on current events. I am not at all sure about your take on the New Testament..........................make sure to read it in its entirety. A good stiff drink might help when reading Revelations. Then, to round things out, make sure to read the Koran where, lo and behold! You will encounter the same familiar old patriarchal robed figurines (Abraham, etc.)

Make sure to prepare yourself for all the descriptions of Sacrifice.................these descriptions are very detailed as are the rituals proscribed by god.

Then tell me honestly if you don't think something really weird is going on in there.

[jorr lundstrom]

What does the person who offers the sacrifice get out of the deal? The person who offers up the child, or animal to the gods. It seems they are left with feelings of contribution to the greater good/gods.

It is just another twist of the mind that you gave something, when, you actually destroyed something.

That was another rather twisted view but of course one way of picturing a loss as a

great contribution. How imaginative we are. ;)

Twisted ....maybe. I view some aspects of religious ritual as a mechanical function. The catholic idea of confession would be the best example. You get to review your life, talk to someone about where you came up short. You perform the penance and are forgiven. You got to unburden your personal shortcomings and start fresh. Today we call it going to the psychiatrist. It simply serves as a function to help you move on. Given the guilt that churches have laid on people if this function did not exist people could not have moved on with life.

If you look at sacrifice through the same glasses, everybody gets to contribute to the greater good of the tribe/group. The best cow is a relative thing but all is needed is your best.

I'm not saying I agree with the idea and I think it has caused much harm. It has been done for a long time. The people who continue to give something to this process had to get something from it. My humble opinion.

Alkisaw, I didnt mean that your view was twisted. I meant the way they reasoned

about the sacrifices. I say thank you for your opinions that I find valuable.;)

[Belle]

I have been thinking about reading the bible with all of this new data in mind...
I believe the new testament is about claiming our own true sovereignty, and getting out from under all the tithing, and prostrating to those at the top.
I must admit though, that the book itself gives me the heebie jeebies :eek: Did I spell that right?

The following is just my thoughts fwiw.

If you choose to read the bible, it helps to read it objectively as a historial account of what tptb want us to know. It has been altered many times...sometimes by just a word here or there that changes the whole meaning. Yahweh has very human characteristics, especially the baser emotions, and a huge ego...he likes to threaten a lot. The prophets are interesting...setting the stage for "what is to come". The four books of the Apostles have probably been tampered with the most, but you can still get the sense of the loving nature and message of the man Jesus if you use discernment. They work hard to make the lineage of Jesus to King David as clear as possible...who knows, he may have been one of them by blood that went rogue instead of following the family and made a "sacrifice" of to show what would happen to any other family member who didn't go along OR it could all be bs. The rest of the new testament primarily comes from Paul, who was never an apostle and appeared out of nowhere...lots of rules in that one to set up the organization, tho' a few gems may be found ie 1Cor.13 about love. The book of revelation is the plan that they are working on right now...and I want to be clear that this is only my opinion and I could be way off. It uses imagery rather than speaking clearly, but it's all in there...the European Union, nukes, earth "changes", spiritual warfare and more.

Happy reading! I would recommend keeping a bucket near you...some of it makes me quite sick to my stomach.

[Second Son]

I think you are hitting the mark, Belle.
I might eve go a little further and say that JC might not have even lived. He is WAAAAY too close to about a dozen other messiahs who came before him.
I think the PTB recognized a pattern in our human thinking, and have taken advantage of it down through the millenia, giving us one "savior" after another, all the time hiding any and all literature which empowers us and tells us we are all divine in our own right.
Thanks for your insights.

[Belle]

I think the idea of "messiahs" may come from tptb. I also think that there have been many highly enlightened people down through the ages that could see through the lies, knowing what beautiful and powerful beings we really are and sharing that knowledge in whatever way they could to pass it on.

[thunder24]

I think you are hitting the mark, Belle.
I might eve go a little further and say that JC might not have even lived. He is WAAAAY too close to about a dozen other messiahs who came before him.
I think the PTB recognized a pattern in our human thinking, and have taken advantage of it down through the millenia, giving us one "savior" after another, all the time hiding any and all literature which empowers us and tells us we are all divine in our own right.
Thanks for your insights. Who told you the kingdom of heaven was within you?;)

[modwiz]

I think you are hitting the mark, Belle.
I might eve go a little further and say that JC might not have even lived. He is WAAAAY too close to about a dozen other messiahs who came before him.
I think the PTB recognized a pattern in our human thinking, and have taken advantage of it down through the millenia, giving us one "savior" after another, all the time hiding any and all literature which empowers us and tells us we are all divine in our own right.
Thanks for your insights. Who told you the kingdom of heaven was within you?;)

And, at hand. Like an unused tool.

[Second Son]

Who told me??? Lets see. Michael Tsarion... David Icke... Carlos Casteneda... Richard Bach... Edgar Casey... many many sources.

[thunder24]

Who told me??? Lets see. Michael Tsarion... David Icke... Carlos Casteneda... Richard Bach... Edgar Casey... many many sources.

then its out there in literature

[Second Son]

Its out there NOW thunder. A few hundred years ago all of the aforementioned authors would have been burned at the stake by the church. And that, my friend is a fact.

[thunder24]

Its out there NOW thunder. A few hundred years ago all of the aforementioned authors would have been burned at the stake by the church. And that, my friend is a fact.

I don't remember what it was like then, so I can't say. do you and if so, please share. HIS story has been changed just like the holy book about jc

You know vincent van goh didn't even paint till he was locked away. Mystic, but thats just what I read now, i don't know

[modwiz]

Who told me??? Lets see. Michael Tsarion... David Icke... Carlos Casteneda... Richard Bach... Edgar Casey... many many sources.

Copycats. Correct though.

[Belle]

Jesus himself told us that the kingdom of heaven is within, and that we are all sons and daughters of the one true God. He spoke of many truths that people are awakening to these days. As distorted as the Gospels may be, you can clearly discern the love and peace of this gentle man...truly, fully Christ Consciousness alive in the world.

[thunder24]

Jesus himself told us that the kingdom of heaven is within, and that we are all sons and daughters of the one true God. He spoke of many truths that people are awakening to these days. As distorted as the Gospels may be, you can clearly discern the love and peace of this gentle man...truly, fully Christ Consciousness alive in the world.

that was exactly my point, a lot of people are waking up to truths that were known, even before jc walked whenthey say he did

[Belle]

It is truly horrific what the Church has done to the people of this world in the name of that gentle soul who defied the conventions and tptb of his day. I can see how it would be easy for some to lump all of it together and label it as "evil". Another deliberate attempt to confuse by our "friends" at the top of the heap. Things are not always what they appear to be at first glance. Look within...you may be surprised.

[kinerkid]

Hi Jorr - To get back to your original post (but I've really enjoyed the whole thread), I think sacrifice comes down to an energy exchange. I don't understand it all yet but here's my 2 cents. Let's look at energy as having a positive charge and a negative charge (just like a battery). I personally believe both occur in a sacrifice ritual, execution, etc. I think there are parties on either receiving end. Not sure who they are, but one group gets the positive burst from that - be it through adulation, worship, victory, or whatever. The other gets the sorrow, defeat, & persecution.

There may be other dimensional beings involved in this, but it could be that it is simply a human thing. The king, the priests, the executioners get the positive flow; the downtrodden, the impoverished, the lower class get the negative flow. All for the sake of maintaining the status quo.

This idea continues if you look at old-time customs of saying a prayer or blessing upon an animal you are about to slaughter. Except from what I can tell, the negative energy flow stops with the animal being killed and doesn't weaken or sicken the rest of the flock. Interesting. Maybe I'm wrong. I haven't been to a sacrifice in this lifetime, nor do I remember any in past lifetimes so I'm totally speculating here.

[jorr lundstrom]

Hi Avalonians, I really want to thank all of you for your contibutions to this tthread

and hopefully to our individell and collective understanding of wot sacrifice is all

about. I hope we can get to some kind of summary and a consensus on the subject.

But we are not there yet, and I wonder if wot Eckhart Tolle calls the painbody can

be seen as some kind of gate into which the Archons can enter a suction-pipe.

Or are we so seduced that we dont need the Archons for this, maybye even to

the degree that we enjoy our pain, maybye just out of habit?

Please elaborate on this.


The pain body by Eckhart Tolle

This accumulated pain is a negative energy field that occupies your body and mind. If you look on it as an invisible entity in its own right, you are getting quite close to the truth. It's the emotional pain body. It has two modes of being: dormant and active.

.The pain body wants to survive, just like every other entity in existence, and it can only survive if it gets you to unconsciously identify with it. It can then rise up, take you over, "become you," and live through you. It needs to get its "food" through you. It will feed on any experience that resonates with its own kind of energy, anything that creates further pain in whatever form: anger, destructiveness, hatred, grief, emotional drama, violence, and even illness.

So the pain body, when it has taken you over, will create a situation in your life that reflects back its own energy frequency for it to feed on. Pain can only feed on pain. Pain cannot feed on joy. It finds it quite indigestible.

Once the pain body has taken you over, you want more pain. You become a victim or a perpetrator. You want to inflict pain, or you want to suffer pain, or both. There isn't really much difference between the two. You are not conscious of this, of course, and will vehemently claim that you do not want pain. But look closely and you will that your thinking and behavior are designed to keep the pain going, for yourself and others.

If you were truly conscious of it, the pattern would dissolve, for to want more pain is insanity, and nobody is consciously insane.
The pain body, which is the dark shadow cast by the ego, is actually afraid of the light of your consciousness. It is afraid of being found out. Its survival depends on your unconscious identification with it, as well as on your unconscious fear of facing the the pain that lives in you. But if you don't face it, if you don't bring the light of your consciousness into the pain, you will be forced to relive it again and again. The pain body may seem to you like a dangerous monster that you cannot bear to look at, but I assure you that it is an insubstantial phantom that cannot prevail against the power of your presence..

So the pain body doesn't want you to observe it directly and see it for what it is. The moment you observe, feel its energy field within you, and take your attention into it, the identification is broken. A higher dimension of consciousness has come in. I call it presence.

You are now the witness or the watcher of the pain body. This means that it cannot use you anymore by pretending to be you, and it can no longer replenish itself through you. You have found your own inner strength. You have accessed the power of Now.
Unconsciousness creates it; consciousness transmutes it into itself.

The pin body consists of trapped life-energy that has split off from your total energy field and has temporarily become autonomous through the unnatural process of mind identification. It has turned in on itself and become anti-life, like an animal trying to devour its own tail. Why do you think our civilization has become so life-destructive?
But even the life-destructive forces are still life-energy.

Let me summarize the process. Focus attention on the feeling inside you. Know that it is the pain body. Accept that it is there. Don't think about it - don't let the feeling turn into thinking. Don't judge or analyze. Don't make an identity for yourself out of it. Stay present, and continue to be the observer of what is happening inside you. Become aware not only of the emotional pain but also of "the one who observes," the silent watcher.

This is the power of the Now, the power of your own conscious presence. Then see what happens.

For many women, the pain body awakens particularly at the time preceding the menstrual flow....If you are able to stay alert and present at that time and watch whatever you feel within, rather then be taken over by it, it affords an opportunity for the most powerful spiritual practice, and a rapid transmutation of all past pain becomes possible.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4aUjLiLiriA

Love and carrots on the house.:ranger:

[Maria Stade]

Ahkenaten
Make sure to prepare yourself for all the descriptions of Sacrifice.................these descriptions are very detailed as are the rituals proscribed by god.


Seem to be a good way to make one self sick, almost like watching TV !

Then the archons will be fed....nooo no food to them !

I have tried 3 times to read the so called holy book, I ll just pass, dont need that experience LOL


Ahkenaten
Then tell me honestly if you don't think something really weird is going on in there.

Well to be frank its not easy to understand ! To twisted for my taste.

[Ahkenaten]

Unfortunately it is very easy to understand I think. It is more literal than metaphorical - when read in that way it is sobering indeed. NOT light reading and not fun, except for maybe some poetry in the Songs of Solomon. It is something that I can only describe as HIGH STRANGENESS. The juxtaposition of the so-called Old Testament with the New Testament, in particular, is jarring. When one is raised in so-called Western Culture the 'values' and 'ideations' in these scriptures underpin and permeate everything. So we are saturated with these ideas from birth and even before whether we like it or not. However when one actually takes the time to read these things, it is an astonishing experience. It is like OMG I never knew that it all was based on THIS. Once one reads it in its entirety, without judgment, just simply observing, then and only then can one decide whether one wants to go along with this - or do something else.

It should, for that reason alone, be required reading IMO.

[Maria Stade]

Ahkenaten
Unfortunately it is very easy to understand I think.

Yes it is easy to understand what is writen !

Its hard to unerstand how it can be the book to follow and belive in !

And honest ! It is like you say we have been indoctrinated by birth and it is all ower in the system.
Our laws comes from the bible.

A big part of the programing !

I have read enough ! Sorry to say that people in the programing cant se what is wrong with it !

[Ahkenaten]

Yes sadly language is one of the most persistent things we have and these written traditions have a way of sticking.......you know how the lawyers (I know, bad example) always say - be careful what you put in writing and THEY should know!! Our language and traditions imprison us. People do not like change - especially the radical change that is now required of us. People like to cling to the familiar even if it is a sinking rubber raft! Once again we confront the enigma of who and what we are, so often people are merely what they are, as Jean Genet said, "Said to be." The power of the word is in the naming and framing. And therein also lies the limitations. Interesting that so much of the world is imprisoned by this particular melodrama that really is very worn out - we already know what the 'ending' is - just look at HIStory! It is also interesting to contemplate the Eastern tweak on the story.............and sadly for us all, there are interconnections between the historic underpinnings (so-called myths and religions) of the EAST and WEST - which leads us again to the magesterial work of De Santillana and Von Deschend's HAMLET'S MILL.............

It's like WTF, WhoTF are we, where are we headed, is something living us rather than us living our lives and can we do anything different?

Clearly doing something radically different is required at this juncture!:washing:

[TigerLilly]

Threads like this one fill me with awe. Thank you everyone.

There seem to be two topics, religion and sacrifice, which are tied to one another.

Religions so often begin well, based on the teachings of one enlightened soul and are then high jacked by the elite as a very effective way of control. All emotions are based on either fear or love. Both are very powerful. Fear destroys, diminishes and controls whilst love empowers and frees.
So yes the PTB have always used fear, mainly religious fear to control, and nothing creats more fear than violent sacrifice. Fear feeds evil in any and every form.

Hopefully mankind is now ready to out grow religion, to wake up their personal power and move into love. We nolonger need priest to tell us where to find God and how he wants us to behave. We can find him/her within ourselves and within everyone else.... Namaste.

But love is about sacrifice too. A very different type of sacrifice, which only comes through unconditional love, and is more powerful in a positive creative way.

[Ahkenaten]

Tiger Lilly will you tell me how love is about sacrifice? Somehow I think that is part of our problem here - we have been conditioned through our "religious/spiritual" traditions to conflate the two, and yet that MAY be a radical distortion. I am not trying to be picky here but I would sincerely like to hear your thoughts about this!!

To me this thought echoes "the blood of Christ, shed for Thee" and I am not sure that Christ himself would have endorsed this view.

[skippy]

Clearly doing something radically different is required at this juncture!:washing:

Radical times, ask for radical actions. Personnally, I came to the conclusion that the highest virtue in this world is sacrifice. The example "par excellence" was set by the Christ: "Here's my blood and here's my life". Please mediate on this act of infinite love and tolerance. We accept Christ conscienceness, but did we understand the true message of the Christ? The sacrifice of self before anything else, is the real thing: “Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead.” It's hard to imagine how people consider themselves awaken without having captured the true mystery of the sacrifice of the Christ. Life is an illusion but the sacrifice of self is saturated of being and meaning. Imagine a world where everybody is ready to feed his fellowman first before feeding oneselve.

Skip.

[grapevine]

I might be way off mark here but bringing it all home ..., don't we all 'sacrifice' our lives when we have children? We sacrifice our way of life, money, freedom, etc. and yet when we have children all that (usually) goes out the window and we willingly give all our lives, our ambitions, everything, up for our personal 'new beginnings' so that they can take up where we left off .....(just another viewpoint). And it's not at all painful because of our perspective and because we CHOOSE to do it .......... Thing is,don't we all want something better for them? Don't we all want where we're at to be the beginning point for them..... and so sacrifice is not really sacrifice at all ..............

Apologies if I'm way out of line - don't wish to cause any offence whatsoever ......

love to all

xxx

[TigerLilly]

Hello Ahkenaten.

With pleasure. I am talking about giving through love, nothing religious.

Firstly I was speak as a parent who gladly gives years of their life and energy to their child.
I love the description of parenthood in Kahlil Gibran's The Prophet;

"You are the bows from which your children as living arrows are sent forth.
The archer sees the mark upon the path of the infinite, and He bends you with His might that His arrows may go swift and far.
Let your bending in the archer's hand be for gladness;
For even as he loves the arrow that flies, so He loves also the bow that is stable."

If you truly love someone you let them go, in unconditional love there is an element of sacrifice. We all have egos, however well we may or may not control them. Our egos want to be with those that we love, feel that we know what is best for them, want to keep them safe.
But the wise parent who truely loves lets the child go and follow their own instincts and path. This is a sacrifice but one which inevitably leads to greater happiness on both sides, so a positive loving sacrifice.

All other types of love need to follow this same pattern. So many relaionships fail because people love conditionally, are needy and demanding. If we can put aside our egos demands and fears (sacrifice them) then love becomes unconditional and true happiness flows.

A hero sacrifices his life because of his love for his fellow men, again a positive sacrifice based on pure instinctive love.

[Ahkenaten]

Thanks for clarifying Tiger Lilly. No greater love hath one than he who would lay down his life for his friend. Self sacrifice. I accept that as being a noble concept. I am not so sure about the interpretation of the Crucifixion as Sacrifice though, and especially the sublimation of that into the Communion ritual (blood and body) though I certainly see how it resonates historically and mythologically. I don't mean to sound too cold and analytical about this particular point, but we have been so conditioned by our religious beliefs to believe the logic in the equation posed by this symbol (love=death) that it is somewhat crippling.

In fact I would go so far as to say, given current events, that it has become somewhat of a self-fulfilling prophesy (love=death) and there seems to be no way out!!

[TigerLilly]

Ahkenaten
Crucifixion was a standard method of public execution in Roman times. As previouly stated on this thread public executions were used to control the population through fear. The more horrible and painful the death the greater the fear. Fear feeds evil. So clearly the negative form of sacrifice that Jorr wanted to discuss.

I am not religious so am not qualified to discuss Christian beliefs.

But I do not understand what you mean whenyou say love = death. Why? How?
The hero giving his life was only the extreme example, fortunately most parents are not required to die for their children!
Physical death is inevitable, but love is what makes life worth living. I do not see the connection?

[Ahkenaten]

I am not religious either and no expert on Christianity though raised as a Christian. What I meant by the equation love=death is the symbolic meaning that sets up............in other words if one sacrifices oneself for others (the ultimate expression of "love") that inevitably leads to death (the ultimate self-sacrifice)......

Anyway maybe the equation doesn't capture what I am trying to say but it seems to me to inevitably lead to the end of our world taking this to the ultimate. And I am not happy about that.

We all 'die' as individuals of course I just don't like to think that it is inevitable and logical that we should blow the world up to prove to ourselves how much we love each other!!

OK now this is really straining at the tethers of logic and tradition - but maybe this is the underlying reason for the all-pervasiveness of the sacrifice in human history - maybe it goes to the individual and fear of death - death being the defined end of Self. Maybe the Self, by offering up the Self (or a proxy such as another person or an animal or something else symbolizing the Self) to the Greater Forces of Creation is an offering up of that which is most precious - most precious because most personal and most transitory --- in the hopes of achieving immortality or rising above the isolated individual Self into the Infinite. Maybe that is the psychological reason for the Sacrifice - offering up the very precious Self in exchange for Most precious immortality.

[skippy]

Anyway maybe the equation doesn't capture what I am trying to say but it seems to me to inevitably lead to the end of our world taking this to the ultimate. And I am not happy about that. We all 'die' as individuals of course I just don't like to think that it is inevitable and logical that we should blow the world up to prove to ourselves how much we love each other!!

I'm a bit lost here Ahkenaten. What's the connection with the end of the world or to blow up our world to prove to ourselves how much we love each other... Maybe the answer is in your post, but I don't see the connection either..

[Ahkenaten]

Anyway maybe the equation doesn't capture what I am trying to say but it seems to me to inevitably lead to the end of our world taking this to the ultimate. And I am not happy about that. We all 'die' as individuals of course I just don't like to think that it is inevitable and logical that we should blow the world up to prove to ourselves how much we love each other!!

I'm a bit lost here Ahkenaten. What's the connection with the end of the world or to blow up our world to prove to ourselves how much we love each other... Maybe the answer is in your post, but I don't see the connection either..

Well I am probably pushing it too far here --- I took it that Jorr feels that the whole concept of sacrifice is problematic and all-pervasive. I then started thinking about what sacrifice means and it occurred to me that if it means to us, on some level, an ultimate expression of love and devotion - that could lead to some very bad outcomes and conclusions when applied to history. I think we all know that some religious traditions all share common end-times "armageddon" type ideations. And these are dangerously self-fulfilling ideas if linked to our basic concept of what the highest expressions of love and service to others are. This is what I meant. I am sorry if I am pushing this discussion out of bounds and getting way, way too philosophical here. No offense intended.

[jorr lundstrom]

Tiger Lilly will you tell me how love is about sacrifice? Somehow I think that is part of our problem here - we have been conditioned through our "religious/spiritual" traditions to conflate the two, and yet that MAY be a radical distortion. I am not trying to be picky here but I would sincerely like to hear your thoughts about this!!

To me this thought echoes "the blood of Christ, shed for Thee" and I am not sure that Christ himself would have endorsed this view.

Ahkenaten, I see it like this. Love doesnt demand anything but it costs you everything.

And as we have free will, no blood is shed for me, I havent even been asked if I want anybody

shed his blood for me. :hug:


There is an old poem about the Nordic God Odin, where he hangs up side down for nine days

and nine nights in the ashtree Yggdrasil of his own will. He sacrifices himself to himself. He is

the sacrificer, the sacrificed and the one to whom he sacrifices. :playball::kiss:

[Maria Stade]

To die to one self is the greatest Sacrifice one can give to one self and it is also the greaest gift to the world !

I think the arcons have played on our ability to love and the spiritual natrual in us that whants to give !

In twisted ways they have tricked humans to put the energy outside self and caused lots of distraction.

Inplanted dualistic ways of thinking and wrong, shame, guildt splited all in 2 !

To make things right people was learned to go outside of self to get mercy when the only one that can forgive self, is self.

Love your self !

Ahk I truly hope that we do not have to destoy the planet before people realize how precious they are.

Namaste

[Ahkenaten]

Tiger Lilly will you tell me how love is about sacrifice? Somehow I think that is part of our problem here - we have been conditioned through our "religious/spiritual" traditions to conflate the two, and yet that MAY be a radical distortion. I am not trying to be picky here but I would sincerely like to hear your thoughts about this!!

To me this thought echoes "the blood of Christ, shed for Thee" and I am not sure that Christ himself would have endorsed this view.

Ahkenaten, I see it like this. Love doesnt demand anything but it costs you everything.

And as we have free will, no blood is shed for me, I havent even been asked if I want anybody

shed his blood for me. :hug:


There is an old poem about the Nordic God Odin, where he hangs up side down for nine days

and nine nights in the ashtree Yggdrasil of his own will. He sacrifices himself to himself. He is

the sacrificer, the sacrificed and the one to whom he sacrifices. :playball::kiss:

Jorr I did not know that story about Odin in the tree.............do you think that the symbol of him hanging upside down has anything to do with the image on the Tarot Card showing the figure upside down? I know this is off topic. Also on the subject if the Yaggdrasil Tree which is very profound I believe - had you heard the theory about the sacred tree always moving in an Westerly direction? I know that is REALLY off the subject. If you think this is really off topic and want to answer me you can always PM me.....Thank you again for this thread! Ahk

[Darla Ken Pearce]

Sacrifice is a religious construct that allows that it is good, right, and decent, to be enslaved, to suffer, to exist under pain and agony and to be controlled in order to receive a reward some time in the future in Heaven and not to look for it during this lifetime. This is the main reason that we've been enslaved for eons. The bible which is of artificial construct also, backs it up as it was designed to do. It's the perfect controller and no one can complain about it without risking hellfire and brimstone. In point of fact, the enslavement that results is HELL on earth in the here and now but not everyone seems to be able to make this distinction. There are scores of willing volunteers for enslavement. Oh well, it's all coming to an end as our consciousness rises. Thank goodness and mercy. It's about time! All we possess is this one moment in time, so we need to create a world where we can be happy now. xoxox

[jorr lundstrom]

:jester: Off Topic

Hmmm, In some decks the hanged man of tarot is from the Arthurian myth. The king want to test Merlins ability to

look into the future. A youth is brought before them, and Merlin predicts that he will die by falling from

a high rock. The same youth is presented a second time, in different clothes and with his long hair cut short.

Merlin predicts that this youth will die a violent death by hanging from a tree. Finally, the same youth appears

disguised as a girl; girl or not, says Merlin, she will die by drowning in the river. Merlin is judged to be mad and

inaccurate in his prevision; he is released from the court and town,

Years pass and the youth grows into a young man. While out hunting he pursues a stag, following his hounds

in a great fever of exjtement to the top of the high mountain, He falls from his horse over the edge of a

precipice, only to catch his foot in a tree branch as he falls; he ends by hanging up side down with his head

immersed in the river below. This card is also called: The threefold death.

In other decks its the self sacrifice of Odin. For example in Waites deck. In that deck the

man also shows a mudra in his posture.:focus:

[kattrinarose]

I feel this is truth...I have studied much on this....and I would have to say to anyone concerned about anything, or anyone, controlling you, it might be a good idea to research some occult knowledge. I really see no other way to find out the truth of what goes on in this world.

Anyway...

If the heart is ---a seven layered, liquid crystal oscillator (the most powerful machine or "engine" in the universe), and the "fuel" that keeps it running, is the liquid crystal (the blood)...then the sacrifice of blood is literally providing fuel, life force, prana, chi... for -whatever-whomever, etc. The total sacrifice of a whole being, I would think, would be sending out, the engine, the fuel...and the soul spark of creation (kundalini) and again would be taken in for food for those depleted, often lab created entities, soulless, empty... and/or not self sustaining entities.

I ask why, anyone would ever think that Prime Creator would require the destruction of Itself-a Divine Spark of Itself-through a "sacrifice", as part of some kind of honor... Does not make any sense. It would have to be food for a false god, again, I would think???

Moving on...
The sacred union of two souls (or the sexual energy as you say) would be like the spark plugs, in essence, for the "engine", to ignite the fuel (liquid crystal- blood), and really project the power of the machine (life force-kundalini) out into the ethers...inter dimensionally....4D, etc.... When the kundalini rises, the spirit part of us shakes loose from the heavy costume of the body, and this freedom feels like an orgasmic dance.

It's not bad, or evil in it's core energy....as the radicals would lead you to believe...it is the spark of the Divine...it creates life ! It expands the life force of Prime Creator, what more of an honor would that be...as co-creation.
Yet...............it is power, extreme power.

As Prime Creator is Divine, and we were created with free will...there would not be judgement as to how to use this powerful energy. In service to self, in service to the flock, in a positive or negative agenda...in a life affirming force, or life depleting force,--- when projected on a vulnerable, weak willed and ungrounded being, it could easily be used for control.

It has been said, when this energy is used for a specific intention, with specific ritual, focused concentration.... with sacred sounds, harmonics, geometry...in meditation, trance, etc...it cracks the veil, and brings one into the astral world in full consciousness, as opposed to some "dream state"... thus creating a "portal". A door through space and time.

If you really think about it, in your own life, well it makes sense. Where is your head after a good romp in the hay? Meaning, what brain wave state are you in??? Alpha, Theta? You are "out there"...right??? Kind of weak, floaty, blissful state, at peace, no worries...the physical body is heavy, tired, etc. Poof, you are, my friend, beyond the veil...limitless, boundless, etc... What can be created in thought over there, can bleed through to hear, through your little "portal" and manifest things far more easily, then just using creative visualization or mindful meditation, or a "feeling" type prayer.

[Lord Sidious]

Tiger Lilly will you tell me how love is about sacrifice? Somehow I think that is part of our problem here - we have been conditioned through our "religious/spiritual" traditions to conflate the two, and yet that MAY be a radical distortion. I am not trying to be picky here but I would sincerely like to hear your thoughts about this!!

To me this thought echoes "the blood of Christ, shed for Thee" and I am not sure that Christ himself would have endorsed this view.

You have obviously never been in a relationship or had children to ask this question.

[Ahkenaten]

Tiger Lilly will you tell me how love is about sacrifice? Somehow I think that is part of our problem here - we have been conditioned through our "religious/spiritual" traditions to conflate the two, and yet that MAY be a radical distortion. I am not trying to be picky here but I would sincerely like to hear your thoughts about this!!

To me this thought echoes "the blood of Christ, shed for Thee" and I am not sure that Christ himself would have endorsed this view.

You have obviously never been in a relationship or had children to ask this question.

That remark Mr. Sid is venomous and why would you be so vindictive or try to make a personal attack? Minimally it is unkind and unwarranted. You reveal your character by what you say and do.

[Darla Ken Pearce]

One thing that has become clear to me is that we've been caught in a loop ~ I was actually told this and believe it fully ~ a loop of endless incarnations. Forgotten, is that we have been all sexes and played the roles of both darkness and light and it is said, 400 lives on average. No wonder we've grown tired of endless wars and conflicts. Imagine.


Why did we do this? For the purpose of defining it and bringing all of life's contrasts into a new clarity and focus we didn't experience in the higher planes and pure celestial realms from which we came. In the brightest light of happiness and joy, the full spectrum of light and it's rainbows and new rays were not available as it has become now through this 3D experiment.

By taking on so many parts we know from history ~ realize that all these characters not only lived side-by side with us but were as a point of fact, ourselves going through wars, deaths, burnings at the stake, rich, poor, and somewhere inbetween and all the other parts on this world stage. Knowing this, it is difficult to continue placing any jugments whatsoever upon anyone else ~ to comdemn them is to actually condemn ourselves and this has been taking place over and over again up until now.

The ascension is how we break these old traditions; know that you are a knight templar, Joan of Arc, the Pope, the large, the small, the rich , the poor and finally take pity on them and stop commiting genocide again over and over ~ as they are, in truth, US.

The world that surrounds us today can then be seen more clearly and becomes of the greatest interest as never before realized. In the past ~ we have created all the darkness that is now present and it will keep coming back as a reflection and mirror of these past days until we can fully resolve and reconcile and reconcilate all these various parts of the whole of ourselves and put these fragmented pieces together again not only of light and dark but all the other rays of the color spectrum now available. It's part of our great reward ~ these new extensions of light.

Yes, we can and must put Humpty Dumpty back together again and it's possible only through the power of love and understanding extended to others but in the end allowing us to become unified within ourselves as the One ~ we are and have always been. Does this make any sense to you? I can see clearly now ~ repeat after me and it will come to you ; ) Much love and togetherness calling for huge big group hugs and adoration and let the celebrations begin. Can you feel the truth at long last? Yes, yes, yes ~ we can! xoxoxo

[Lord Sidious]

Tiger Lilly will you tell me how love is about sacrifice? Somehow I think that is part of our problem here - we have been conditioned through our "religious/spiritual" traditions to conflate the two, and yet that MAY be a radical distortion. I am not trying to be picky here but I would sincerely like to hear your thoughts about this!!

To me this thought echoes "the blood of Christ, shed for Thee" and I am not sure that Christ himself would have endorsed this view.

You have obviously never been in a relationship or had children to ask this question.

That remark Mr. Sid is venomous and why would you be so vindictive or try to make a personal attack? Minimally it is unkind and unwarranted. You reveal your character by what you say and do.

That isn't how it was meant.
You asked a question that should have been obvious if you had experienced those things.
And please, no woe is me defences.
You put that question out, not me.

[Limor Wolf]

Hello all,

~ Mod hat on ~

I would greatly appreciate it if we will stay off attacking or responding with direct remarks towords another member,up till now no great use was found in doing so..
I hope its something we can agree on

Blessings,
Limor

[Arrowwind]

Tiger Lilly will you tell me how love is about sacrifice? Somehow I think that is part of our problem here - we have been conditioned through our "religious/spiritual" traditions to conflate the two, and yet that MAY be a radical distortion. I am not trying to be picky here but I would sincerely like to hear your thoughts about this!!

To me this thought echoes "the blood of Christ, shed for Thee" and I am not sure that Christ himself would have endorsed this view.

You have obviously never been in a relationship or had children to ask this question.

That remark Mr. Sid is venomous and why would you be so vindictive or try to make a personal attack? Minimally it is unkind and unwarranted. You reveal your character by what you say and do.

The statement Sidious made is exactly what came to my mind, although perhaps the idea could have been brought forth a little more softly. As a mother of two I know what I have sacrificed and know what I would sacrifice if called upon to protect them. Lord knows I sacrificed much just in their nurturing, giving up my wants and needs to have the time and money to fulfill theirs... Even having had to go to extreme measures just to bring them forth into the world. When one has the bond of children or a partner of deep connection one knows what sacrifice is all about.... there is no cost too high, no work to hard, even if it breaks your own body, and your own dreams...this is sacrifice... that is done out of love for another, that is done willingly in the light of love, without complaint... but with a glad heart to be able to have the capacity to do so that others might live, and learn, and thrive and know the beauty of this creation.

[Lord Sidious]

Tiger Lilly will you tell me how love is about sacrifice? Somehow I think that is part of our problem here - we have been conditioned through our "religious/spiritual" traditions to conflate the two, and yet that MAY be a radical distortion. I am not trying to be picky here but I would sincerely like to hear your thoughts about this!!

To me this thought echoes "the blood of Christ, shed for Thee" and I am not sure that Christ himself would have endorsed this view.

You have obviously never been in a relationship or had children to ask this question.

That remark Mr. Sid is venomous and why would you be so vindictive or try to make a personal attack? Minimally it is unkind and unwarranted. You reveal your character by what you say and do.

The statement Sidious made is exactly what came to my mind, although perhaps the idea could have been brought forth a little more softly. As a mother of two I know what I have sacrificed and know what I would sacrifice if called upon to protect them. Lord knows I sacrificed much just in their nurturing, giving up my wants and needs to have the time and money to fulfill theirs... Even having had to go to extreme measures just to bring them forth into the world. When one has the bond of children or a partner of deep connection one knows what sacrifice is all about.... there is no cost too high, no work to hard, even if it breaks your own body, and your own dreams...this is sacrifice... that is done out of love for another, that is done willingly in the light of love, without complaint... but with a glad heart to be able to have the capacity to do so that others might live, and learn, and thrive and know the beauty of this creation.


Thanks for your post.
Yeah, I could have been a bit more diplomatic, but that isn't my forte and my words get me in trouble all the time.
I meant no offense to him by my comments.

[jorr lundstrom]

I really dont know why we speak about sacrifice when we love or have children.

What is the difference between choice and sacrifice when it comes to children?

And when we love someone, where is the sacrifice?

I wonder if we are programmed to name some choices we make "a sacrifice" and

if this naming put us in a mood which feeds the archons.

Please elaborate on this. :horn:

[Belle]

I really dont know why we speak about sacrifice when we love or have children.

What is the difference between choice and sacrifice when it comes to children?

And when we love someone, where is the sacrifice?

I wonder if we are programmed to name some choices we make "a sacrifice" and

if this naming put us in a mood which feeds the archons.

Please elaborate on this. :horn:

I'm so glad you brought this up, Jorr. I've never considered what I do for anyone as sacrifice. There have been many times I've placed others needs ahead of my own, but that's who I am. It is always a choice made from love...not a sacrifice. I could do no different.

If the focus is on someone else's need or happiness, the gift is pure. If the focus is on what "I gave up" or what "I did without" or what "I sacrificed" for someone else, that can lead to the idea of reciprocal actions (I did this for you, so you do this for me). Or worse yet, that kind of unconscious expectation can lead to resentment if left unmet. How many times have you heard someone say, "After at all I've given up for you....!" That is sacrifice...that is gifting guilt....definitely feeding the Archons!

Edited to add: BTW, lest you think I don't have children...I am a mother of two, grandmother of 2, and "Ma" to most of their friends.

[Arrowwind]

I really dont know why we speak about sacrifice when we love or have children.

What is the difference between choice and sacrifice when it comes to children?

And when we love someone, where is the sacrifice?

I wonder if we are programmed to name some choices we make "a sacrifice" and

if this naming put us in a mood which feeds the archons.

Please elaborate on this. :horn:

I'm so glad you brought this up, Jorr. I've never considered what I do for anyone as sacrifice. There have been many times I've placed others needs ahead of my own, but that's who I am. It is always a choice made from love...not a sacrifice. I could do no different.

If the focus is on someone else's need or happiness, the gift is pure. If the focus is on what "I gave up" or what "I did without" or what "I sacrificed" for someone else, that can lead to the idea of reciprocal actions (I did this for you, so you do this for me). Or worse yet, that kind of unconscious expectation can lead to resentment if left unmet. How many times have you heard someone say, "After at all I've given up for you....!" That is sacrifice...that is gifting guilt....definitely feeding the Archons!

Edited to add: BTW, lest you think I don't have children...I am a mother of two, grandmother of 2, and "Ma" to most of their friends.

I do think it is possible to give unconditionally with love and through sacrafice. Just because you sacrifice does not mean you feel that you have gotten the short end of the stick.. Yes, it is a choice... it is always a choice even when you feel like it is not a choice in what you do.There is always choice...

Let me tell you... after having two abdominal surguries to have babies it is a sacrafice to tote them around afterwards... the first was a whirlwind that I felt like I was swept into, the second was a choice. It is a sacrafice to go through being cut apart, the pain and healing.. would I trade it back? no, but still there is a payment I have made with my body, my emotions, having to take drugs, etc etc.. Most people don't even consider it but it is a risk of ones own life, and many a mother has paid the ultimate sacrafice to bring forth life. There is nothing so compelling as the development of bond and love starting even before birth.

An let me tell you my experience of love... I have never known what love was until the birth of a child... I thought I knew...I really did... but I did not... it is like a full blasting open of the heart chakra... that does not go away... and along with it the third eye opens, that gives you the vision to see that child even through walls... to know its every movement, its every breath. You and he are one for the longest time... until the natural unfolding of time and events brings some separation... over the years.

It is a sacrafice to give to life what life requries when your own lifes energy is the payment. When you do thing for others that you would not spend one second doing for yourself alone... But you get paid back many times over... and it is not an anticipated or expected payback, it just happens and it comes though the whitnessing the gift of life growing and developing into things you could not have imagined on your own.... it takes wings and flies... and you know that it comes from some unexplicable source withing your own being on some level.

So when you see all the things you dreamed of for your life getting put on the back burner those things become irrelevant. ... and no thought is even given to it during the demands and challenges of each day... only now, that my children are older and out of my home do I reflect and see what happened to me, what was lost and forgotten and what was gained and learned... it is even sometimes hard to remember the planned program before they came along... but it seems I am starting to pick up some of those pieces now..

and I wont even begin to get into the sacrifices my husband has made... to provide for us all, unwaveringly over 25 years. He could have chosen a more selfish path as many men do.. and as many women, do for that matter. But it was his intent to stick to the program till completion, which I think never really arrives... for true love never ends... just the expression, the dance changes according to the needs of those involved.

[skippy]

I really dont know why we speak about sacrifice when we love or have children. What is the difference between choice and sacrifice when it comes to children? And when we love someone, where is the sacrifice?

I'm so glad you brought this up, Jorr. I've never considered what I do for anyone as sacrifice. There have been many times I've placed others needs ahead of my own, but that's who I am. It is always a choice made from love...not a sacrifice. I could do no different. If the focus is on someone else's need or happiness, the gift is pure. If the focus is on what "I gave up" or what "I did without" or what "I sacrificed" for someone else, that can lead to the idea of reciprocal actions (I did this for you, so you do this for me). Or worse yet, that kind of unconscious expectation can lead to resentment if left unmet. How many times have you heard someone say, "After at all I've given up for you....!" That is sacrifice...that is gifting guilt....definitely feeding the Archons!.

I do think it is possible to give unconditionally with love and through sacrafice. Just because you sacrifice does not mean you feel that you have gotten the short end of the stick.. Yes, it is a choice... it is always a choice even when you feel like it is not a choice in what you do.There is always choice...

Thanks for this wonderful discussion. IMO, sacrifice and love are two differrent faces of the same thing. The sacrifice dimension of it becomes more visible through consciensness and ego. In the original state, when we are born, we "are" infinite love and Light. “Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven."

Now, when we grow up in this modern world, we all develop some sort of consciencesness and ego, needed to survive. However, we arrived at some point in history where there is too much ego and self-interest in this world; things are fallen apart.

At the same time, it is becoming a scientific evidence that the world cannot exist without some sort of sacrifice, love, noblesse... This doesn't mean a total sacrifice of self as some have posted on this thread. It's important to put some limit onto this capacity. We all would like to see a bright future for the children of this world....

Bless, Skip

[RedeZra]

there is more to this universe than what meets the eye and there is more to us than what it seems

there is for instance a more refined universe where our etheric bodies belong but because of sins or karma or cause and effect we find ourselves yet again imprisoned in matter

we are not these frail fragile food forms but beings of light


besides we are not alone here as there are beings inhabitating the astral realm

some selfish and some servish


a sacrifice is an offering of the essence to these etheric beings - be it milk fruit flesh flowers blood

as they are etheric beings they can only partake of the etheric essence of the offer

and in return they might fulfill the wish which often comes with the sacrifice



sin is just a word for 'missed the mark' and therefore not yet worthy to inhabit the more refined realms forever but must come back again into matter to try again

so to say that one is without sin is to imply that one is perfect enough

perhaps so according to one's own standard but if it is below God's standard than one has to come back into physicality as long as it takes to get it right


Mercy has made it simple for man to break the cycle of birth and death

and establish himself permanently in the refined realms


God took a portion of Himself and placed it inside Mary

and Jesus Christ made the perfect sacrifice


to break the cycle of birth and death

man has only to revere remember and follow the teachings to the best of one's abilities

then God will know that you appreciate what He has done

and so He will guide and guard you til you get there

[kinerkid]

When speaking of love & sacrifice - In my view the word sacrifice is the selfish expression of giving. It implies that the giver is losing or compromising. Just another example of differing energy exchanges. If I were to give to someone but give sacrificially the energy given would be of a lower vibration. If I give joyfully without that selfishness hiding behind the giving the energy put out will be of a higher and positive vibration.

[TigerLilly]

Maybe sacrafice is the wrong word to use when talking about love, it has too many negative connotations. As you say Kinderkid when giving out of love it is joyful giving with no loss only gain.

But sacrifices can be noble and given joyfully. In Dickens Tales of Two Cities, one of the heros dies in the place of another man saying,

"It is a far, far better thing that I do, than I have ever done; it is a far, far better rest that I go to, than I have ever known." This is a sacrifice made with a positive vibration for all involved.

[Ahkenaten]

On the subject of love and sacrifice - think of this: the most significant point in the life of Christ and the most transformative message (IMO) for humans in the New Testament was his transformation into Light when he ascended to Heaven, NOT the crucifixion scene. Is it not possible that TPTB, in an attempt to subvert the empowering and tranformative message of the ascension (because it threatened their whole control paradigm, i.e. a particular 'religious' tradition based on blood-sacrifice and dehumanization of people) shifted the focus of the hopeful and positive meaning of the life of Christ from the Ascension (the Ascension means that humans, too - as Christ was the 'Son of Man") can aspire to and even become part of God! THAT dangerous thought must be nipped in the bud because, if left unattended, why heck - as the Lord said in Genesis - "They could BECOME AS ONE OF US!" And so, what better way to distract people from dangerous and empowering concepts like this than shift the emphasis to the crucifixion, effectively tying in the notion of SACRIFICE to that of the ULTIMATE EXPRESSION OF LOVE. That neutralized the radical message of the life of Christ --- and postponed the threat that this message posed, and continues to pose to TPTB. For the message of the life of Christ is simply - the absolute and total power of DIVINE LOVE - a love so powerful that death and darkness is swept away.

For forces that rely on fear and death - nay, who actually FEED on fear and the aroma of death, the light of Love is the power they fear most.

This is why I was raising the provocative question concerning the, IMO, false equation love=death that this distorted interpretation of sacrifice and love perpetuates.

I think this radical distortion lies at the root of some of the problems that beset us, and we are now called upon to rethink what Love means to us, and how we may best express that to ourselves and others going forward.

This will be my last post on the PA Forum.

Good Bye and it has been a pleasure knowing you. Best Wishes, Ahk.

P.S. Jorr I think that you are right - negative energy of any kind only 'feeds the archons' - and without food they cannot exist.

[Arrowwind]

empowering concepts like this than shift the emphasis to the crucifixion, effectively tying in the notion of SACRIFICE to that of the ULTIMATE EXPRESSION OF LOVE. That neutralized the radical message of the life of Christ --- and postponed the threat that this message posed, and continues to pose to TPTB. For the message of the life of Christ is simply - the absolute and total power of DIVINE LOVE - a love so powerful that death and darkness is swept away.


I think this radical distortion lies at the root of some of the problems that beset us, and we are now called upon to rethink what Love means to us, and how we may best express that to ourselves and others going forward.


Good Bye and it has been a pleasure knowing you. Best Wishes, Ahk.

I was raised catholic. I am not a catholic now.. The catholic church has ruled the christian paradigm since near the beginning of christianity.

I do not see what you are saying that death is equated with love in christianity..

perhaps symbolically death of ego?

Much emphasis is placed on the resurection and transfiguration of christ through the ascension.

Not only christ, but Mary, his mother, ascended into heaven without death, a bigger leap than Christ.... actually, she put on a better display than he did without all the suffering..

Ive been touring Catholic churches in Mexico this past month, in every single one of them Mary reigns supreme.. above the tabernacle behind the alter you see Christ,, then you see Mary elevated above him.... in every single church I have been in down here in Mexico.
She stands on a crescent moon with radiant light around her with the serpent under her foot jn many deplictions.

Then there was Enoch.

The cruxificiton is merely a story to tell us that no matter what happens, ascension is possible. even the doubts of christ did not get in the way. governments did not get in the way, Judas did not get in the way, suffering did not get in the way.

clearly there are two very distinct stories about ascension....three if you include Enoch, who ascended then came back to tell about it in physical living form..

but the most perfect ascension was that of Mary... she always encapsulated perfected love from the start until her ascension. She did not suffer as Christ did, except perhaps in her greif at his loss... who knows for sure.

The story is about that in spite of suffering, all is possible, not because of suffering.

In the Catholic paradigm, those who love go to heaven, those who do not go to hell where they suffer eternal damnation... suffering forever without hope of knowig love. Death is not equated with love, death is merely the path to the next reality... how that reality pans out for you depends on your capacity for love.... which is equally true here on earth.

Goodbye. Have a good life filled with love and as little suffering as possible

[wynderer]

i'm puzzled that this thread took an Old Testament/New Testament turn -- Human & Animal sacrifice have been practiced all over the world by many many different cultures -- the Druids, those who followed Mithras, the ancient Romans, the Greeks, some African tribes, some northern American Native tribes -- many others

i see this, as i wrote earlier, as one of the first & most pervasive instances of control of Human minds , & thus actions, by the NWO Reptilians & buddies

it still goes on, the sacrifice of Humans -- like the 3,000 children who went 'missing' in one year in W Chester County, NY -- & of course the blood of the Animals flows freely as they are unendingly sacrificed for Human's desires & cruelties

[DawgBone]

I see this, as i wrote earlier, as one of the first & most pervasive instances of control of Human minds , & thus actions, by the NWO Reptilians & buddies

Yes, blood sacrifice is one of the keys to understanding our situation, and as you point out, it has been a nearly universal practice. Many cultures, many countries.

Killing an animal or a human in the context of religion is totally bizarre. I don't see this as something humans would intuitively invent. We were obviously taught to do this by the "gods" themselves.

The "gods" then are vampiric. We are their food.

I would just like to state for the record that I am not a Big Mac. :--)

[jorr lundstrom]

When I started this thread I didnt have a clue about wot i would have to see and realize as the

thread progressed. I did realize that the reason why we have sacrificed to the Gods for thousand

of years is grounded in an inferiority complex. Instead of realizing our own greatness and our incredable

power we have acted like small children, trying to please the gods in different ways. Im ashamed on

behalf of mankind in this respect.

I have raised five children to adulthood. I have never seen this as if I have sacrificed anything. When you

decide to have children what you choose is all wot it takes, and its often a hard task, but never a sacrifice.

I phoned my childrens mother yesterday and asked her if she had seen having children as a sacrifice.

She asked me if I was cracy and very sharply that she have never sacrificed anything. The first two was

born through ceasarean sections and she had a hard time recovering.

I think the idea that you sacrifice yourself for your child is a consequense of christian programming.

If you hold it for thrue that a man called Jesus was nailed to a cross because of our sins, though

he never says so himself, wot I know. Then it is easy to believe that you sacrifice yourself for your

children, though they never asked you to.

Im sad when I see how many here that are partcipating in the game of the controllers, not knowing that they do.

Gaia has been very glad for her creation, this wonderful planet and everything on it not the least us human.

Now we have almost taken everything to the point of no return. If we dont stop this madness now its gonna

be too late. Im convinced that Gaia will solve her problem with our stupidity her own way. And I think thats gonna

be the real bumpy ride.



I recommend a video with John Lash that tells us of a myth greater than any other myths on the planet.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GIRW2P01XUw

[modwiz]

i'm puzzled that this thread took an Old Testament/New Testament turn -- Human & Animal sacrifice have been practiced all over the world by many many different cultures -- the Druids, those who followed Mithras, the ancient Romans, the Greeks, some African tribes, some northern American Native tribes -- many others

i see this, as i wrote earlier, as one of the first & most pervasive instances of control of Human minds , & thus actions, by the NWO Reptilians & buddies

it still goes on, the sacrifice of Humans -- like the 3,000 children who went 'missing' in one year in W Chester County, NY -- & of course the blood of the Animals flows freely as they are unendingly sacrificed for Human's desires & cruelties

You are very on target with your comment about "missing" children. There may be a few exceptions but most of them are used for rituals and other "uses" we will not discuss. Your imagination will fill in the details and they will most likely be correct if the are very nefarious and sick in concept and involve terror, abuse, blood and death.

It is like the Aztec and/or Mayan period when they fell into utter depravity at the end of their cycle. Desperate power hungry sociopaths know no bounds.

[Belle]

This thread has taken a wonderful journey, and I have a feeling we have only begun to scratch the surface of the many faces of sacrifice.

Thanks for the John Lash video, Jorr. Can't wait to see it, but unfortunately it has to wait until morning...it's close to 10:30pm here and I'm usually up by 5am. Now, if I get up at 3am.....

[jorr lundstrom]

Belle, there are a lot of videos with John Lash on Youtube. He is mostly speaking about the

Sofia myth which tells the story on how we where created and how this planet was created.

It describes processes older than anything all the other myths describe. He also describes wot

disasters the Abrahamic religions has caused and still are causing. They are all preaching love

and at the same time hide a dagger in the cloak. They have zero tolerance with dissenters as

their religions are grounded on belief only. If ones view of life is grounded on ones own experience

one can allow others the right to their view. Very interesting for all that has the courage to

challenge the programming the western and millions in the eastern parts of the world has been

programmed with. Most people dont have this programmings, they are those programmings.:ranger: