Eating animal products will shut down your dna

[Constance]

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[Lord Sidious]

This is a conclusion I have come to recently after reading some info on the topic.
It isn't really rocket science I suppose, the animal suffers, that has to affect you.
It would be no different in that way to prostitution and drugs, just a matter of degrees.
Question for you avalonguggets, does this apply to thinks like eggs and milk as well?

By the way, never apologise for a post's length if it is high quality, that is what we want more of.

[modwiz]

That was a courageous thread to start Constance and my guess is you are prepared for what might happen because of it. I have seen you hold your own before and this topic should prove no different.

I am very aware of the effects eating animals has on consciousness and have seen it time and again but, I do not have it in me anymore to repeat myself to ears that belong to people who have, for the time being, made up their mind on the subject. Good for you to extend yourself for others in this very contentious subject.

Even Jesus said, "Let the dead bury their own".

[Constance]

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[Lord Sidious]

This is a conclusion I have come to recently after reading some info on the topic.
It isn't really rocket science I suppose, the animal suffers, that has to affect you.
It would be no different in that way to prostitution and drugs, just a matter of degrees.
Question for you avalonguggets, does this apply to thinks like eggs and milk as well?

By the way, never apologise for a post's length if it is high quality, that is what we want more of.

Good...and yes...it does apply to eggs and milk as well. They are animal products.

I don't comprehend that part then.
There isn't suffering for the animals if they are treated properly if we take their eggs and milk, but cows suffer if not milked.
So how does this work?

[Constance]

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[Odah]

my view on eating meat is a little different. The problem is not the meat itself the problem is those of us who eat meat eat to darn much of it. Beef, pork, and chicken where not normal daily parts in most cultures.. it was small amounts of animal protien with vegies and other plant matter.

The typical form of protien people ate was from fish or very small animals squirls and small birds.

The other problem is with meat today.. which is why it would shut your dna down or at least suck out your energy. is definatly the way it is raised and cared for.. traditionally there was a lot of respect given to the animal you killed before you ate it.. now there is non at all .

(7 ercent of our dna being junk dna is as silly a concept of up only using 5 or ten percent of our brains. if that was the case we would have 97 percent less dna and brains 90-95 percent smaller.

[modwiz]

This is a conclusion I have come to recently after reading some info on the topic.
It isn't really rocket science I suppose, the animal suffers, that has to affect you.
It would be no different in that way to prostitution and drugs, just a matter of degrees.
Question for you avalonguggets, does this apply to thinks like eggs and milk as well?

By the way, never apologise for a post's length if it is high quality, that is what we want more of.

Good...and yes...it does apply to eggs and milk as well. They are animal products.

I don't comprehend that part then.
There isn't suffering for the animals if they are treated properly if we take their eggs and milk, but cows suffer if not milked.
So how does this work?

If cows did not have their calves taken from them to produce veal the cows would not need milking.

It is a cruel set up for the mother and her offspring.

[SKAWF]

i agree.

i wish i didnt have to eat.
i dont like vegetables, so if i didnt eat meat i would starve.

digressing slightly,

i had a thought a few years back, that animals, because they dont get brainwashed at school,
are probably still in line with universal forces, and that as humans become ever more corrupted,
we may have to look to the examples set by animals to find out what humanity is.

in that light, i adopted a ferret from a rescue. rose is her name.
ive found that if i talk to her as an equal, she responds.
obviously she doesnt talk, but she communicates very well in other ways.
there is a little spectrum of existance within her. she is certainly not a dumb animal.
eye contact is important, and repetition of phrases. eventually she knows what i mean
by the sounds that she hears at certain times.

i think that animals are wrongly percieved as being 'dumb'. they are not.
it is humans that are ignorant.
maybe the phrase 'dumb animals' only exists because if we thought they were anything other than dumb
we wouldnt kill anywhere near as many, or we wouldnt have the justification to do so at all.

i have two ferrets. ive had cats, dogs, birds, and fish in my time.
i am angered by cruelty to animals, but i eat sheep and pigs and chickens.
whats the difference?
i dont like myself for doing that. the truth is when i eat,
its a battle to got the food inside me, before i realise what it is i'm eating.

i am aware that i participate in mass slaughter, (after the fact)
and i often walk home with the bodies, or body parts of animals in a bag.
its disgusting to me.

i wish i didnt have to eat at all. sometimes i go without food for days.


steve

[Constance]

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[Davidallany]

Re: Eating animal products will shut down your dna
Originally Posted by Constance Neal
Originally Posted by Lord Sidious
This is a conclusion I have come to recently after reading some info on the topic.
It isn't really rocket science I suppose, the animal suffers, that has to affect you.
It would be no different in that way to prostitution and drugs, just a matter of degrees.
Question for you avalonguggets, does this apply to thinks like eggs and milk as well?

By the way, never apologise for a post's length if it is high quality, that is what we want more of.
Good...and yes...it does apply to eggs and milk as well. They are animal products.
I don't comprehend that part then.
There isn't suffering for the animals if they are treated properly if we take their eggs and milk, but cows suffer if not milked.
So how does this work?
I'd like to know this too, please.

[Carmody]

The good news is that the situation can be rectified by not eating meat.

I find it a bit difficult to go pure vegan in North America.

Beside the point that this particular body I'm working with works best on a neanderthal (ancient) type diet.

I've tried the pure vegan diet before and the change in vibratory modes was quite potent, to say the least. It took months to come into shape, overall, but it did indeed.

After that, even getting near meat would affect me.

I've it said before. That when I was that highly tuned..if I ate meat, I would live through the death with the animal that I was consuming. The old cannibal thing, where we absorb the 'spirit' of the given person but with the animals that I was eating. I absorb and have flashes of the last vibratory mode they were in. Horrific death.*

So, when i sit down to a steak and I'm in a mode of being where I'm entirely clear (or closer to it) my bargain with the food can be a bit different than the norm.

I think that everyone does this...it is just that they are mostly desensitized to what they are doing and what they are being ( existing as).

Sometimes I'll accidentally go through a period where my animal protein consumption is way down for 3-4-5 days. Lots of grains, etc. Snacking grains, like trail mixes, etc. maybe a few cereal grains, breads. I note the difference fairly quickly.

I find that milk products are not too bad, as they are 'retrieved' when the cow is happy, to some degree. Just my experience.

*My spiritual job, at times, has been to guide souls from horrific deaths to a calm state so they can go to the light and the afterlife, so I'm no stranger to horrific deaths. I've lived a few, one could say. This task is done from the inside of the death scene, with them, inside of them. The trick is compassion. Enough for two souls, at a minimum.

[astrid]

It's also the way food is handled, and the energy, vibration of those handling it that makes a big difference to the end product.

Which is why blessing food before u eat it, is good practice to increase its vibration.


I eat meat, but only from free range and responsible producers.

Mostly i eat white meat, chicken and fish and sometimes duck.

The animals are happy, much loved and well looked after,

organic and free range.

I have visited some of these producers myself.

I have tried not eating meat, and certainly i eat very little these days,

but i get very tired and my bad focus ( ADD symptoms) gets even worse,

i'm unproductive and end up frustrated and depressed.

Sure i could be a vegetarian, but i would end up back on ADD meds just to get up and function everyday.

Its all a fine balance for me, and diet is a big part of that.

But as spiritual beings we are SO powerful.

We can alter the vibration of the food we take in, so it is for our highest good.



But interesting thread Constance, thank you for being you.

blessings,

Astrid

[Constance]

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[Odah]

I will not argue weather or not eating meat shuts down your dna and hinders or slows your ascension. It is really the first time i have heard the concept ..and i have heard a lot about the ascension .

What i will say is that i do know or have heard and can believe.. That Meat was forced into our diets in such amounts. As a way to make us much more aggressive. So then yeah you can sell me on eating meat makes it harder to keep a peaceful state.

[Constance]

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[noprophet]

This is something I realized very quickly when I switched between eating/not eating meat several times over the course of three years. The energy (awareness?) difference is astonishing. Annie Besant outlined it very well in the Ancient Wisdom. (http://www.theosophical.ca/books/TheAncientWisdom_AnnieBesant.pdf) I no longer eat any meat and avoid dairy; though love pizza.

To be honest the higher energy state of never in-taking dairy would probably be a bit much - I've not got the control for being so empathetic.

Daring post none the less. I very, very rarely mention these views to anyone. People love meat to much.

edit : fixed link

[Constance]

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[Constance]

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[ponda]

If it could be proven that by consuming meat a build up of negative energies could occur and that this accumulation of negative energies had a detrimental effect on a humans consciousness then i would imagine that there would not be many meat eaters around and the global consciousness would change in some beneficial way.

I was never a big meat eater as a child and i always ate the veggies first and then usually left half of the meat on the plate.Years later when i was about mid to late twenties i went vego but still ate eggs and cheese.After about 6 months i noticed some changes in myself.I was more calm and relaxed and had a lot more patience when for example driving in traffic etc.Now i only have a little cheese and use soy milk/yogurt.When i first gave up meat i did crave it for a few months but this craving soon subsided.Initially my motivation was for health reasons but now it's more on compassionate grounds.

[Constance]

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[Arpheus]

I dont crave meat at all ever since i stopped consuming it,but i still do tuna 2 or 3 times a month and maybe shrimp once every two months or so,getting rid of the fish in my diet has been a real pain tho,i am trying and being poor helps a lot since seafood is costly these days and i am very wary of eating things that come from the ocean especially since the oil spill happened,i grew up on lots of meat i lived in a farm my childhood where we grew our own chicken geese ducks cows pigs and rabbits,so my diet as a child consisted of a lot of fruits vegetables eggs and meats but all 100 per cent free of all of the crap that is added to such food these days,there was a huge difference,but i still feel guilty when i look back and i could never watch my dad kill the poor little rabbits and i hardly ever ate their meat cause i always remembered how awfull that must have been to the poor furry little guys,but i will say this tho the animals that we raised and ate tasted a lot different then the packed meats you find in a supermarket today thats for sure,i am just glad i dont consume meat anymore and i know that eventually i will be able to cut the fish/shrimp as well its just a gradual process for me personally.

[Icecold]

Blueprint for a Cruelty-Free World

http://www.abolitionist.com/reprogramming/lion-oryx.jpg


The Slaughterhouse Society.....us.

"The total amount of suffering per year in the natural world is beyond all decent contemplation. During the
minute that it takes me to compose this sentence, thousands of animals are being eaten alive, others are
running for their lives, whimpering with fear, others are being slowly devoured from within by rasping
parasites, thousands of all kinds are dying of starvation, thirst and disease. It must be so."
Richard Dawkins
River Out of Eden (1995)

The Problem of Predation

A biosphere without suffering is technically feasible. In principle, science can deliver a cruelty-free world that lacks the molecular signature of unpleasant experience. Not merely can a living world support human life based on genetically preprogrammed gradients of human well-being. If carried to completion, the abolitionist project entails ecosystem redesign, immunocontraception, marine nanorobots, rewriting the vertebrate genome, and harnessing the exponential growth of computational resources to manage a compassionate global ecosystem. Ultimately, it's an ethical choice whether intelligent moral agents opt to create such a world - or instead express our natural status quo bias and perpetuate the biology of suffering indefinitely.
This utopian-sounding vision isn't the upshot of some exotic new theory. The abolitionist project follows quite straightforwardly from the application of a classical utilitarian ethic and advanced biotechnology. More controversially, the abolitionist project is the scientific expression of what Gautama Buddha aspired to some 2500 years ago: "May all that have life be delivered from suffering". Provisionally, let's assume that other things being equal, a cruelty-free world is ethically desirable, i.e. it would be ideal if there were no [involuntary] physical or emotional pain. As our technology matures, some hard choices are ethically unavoidable if these noble sentiments are ever to be turned into practice.

First, a cruelty-free world entails a transition to global veganism. Realistically, global veganism won't come about purely or mainly via moral persuasion within any plausible timeframe. Such a momentous transition can occur only after the advent of mass-produced, genetically-engineered artificial meat ("Krea") that is at least as cheap, tasty and healthy as flesh from slaughtered factory-farmed animals - with moral argument playing a modest supporting role. For sure, there is still the "yuk factor" to overcome. But when delicious, cruelty-free cultured-meat products become commercially available, the "yuk factor" should actually work in favour of cultured meat - since meat from factory-farmed animals is not merely morally disgusting but physically disgusting too.

However, this transition isn't enough. Even the hypothetical world-wide adoption of a cruelty-free diet leaves one immense source of suffering untouched. Here we shall explore one of the thorniest issues: the future of what biologists call obligate predators. For the abolitionist project seems inconsistent with one of our basic contemporary values. The need for species conservation is so axiomatic that an explicitly normative scientific sub-discipline, conservation biology, exists to promote it. In the modern era, the extinction of a species is usually accounted a tragedy, especially if that species is a prominent vertebrate rather than an obscure beetle. Yet if we seriously want a world without suffering, how many existing Darwinian lifeforms can be conserved in their current guise? What should be the ultimate fate of iconic species like the large carnivores? True, only a minority of the Earth's species are carnivorous predators: the fundamental laws of thermodynamics entail that whenever there is an "exchange of energy" between one trophic level and another, there is a significant loss. The majority of the planet's 50,000 or so vertebrate species are vegetarian. But among the minority of carnivorous species are some of the best known creatures on the planet. Should these serial killers be permitted to prey on other sentient beings indefinitely?

A few forms of extinction are almost universally applauded even now. Thus the demise of the smallpox virus in the wild is wholly unlamented, though controversy persists over whether the last two pathogenic Variola copies in human custody should be destroyed. The virus could be recreated from scratch if needed. Technically, viruses aren't alive, since they can't independently replicate. Yet the same welcome will be extended to the extinction of scores of bacterial pathogens that cause human disease if we can plot their eradication as efficiently as the two Variola variants that cause smallpox. Likewise, exterminating the five kinds of protozoan parasites of the genus Plasmodium that cause malaria would be almost universally applauded; a human child dies from malaria on average every twelve seconds. Protozoans have zero consciousness or minimal consciousness, depending on one's ultimate theory of mind. Either way, it makes no sense or minimal sense to speak literally of the "interest" of the plasmodium. Only figuratively do plasmodia have interests. Plasmodia matter significantly only insofar as their existence affects the welfare of sentient beings. Our reverence for the diversity of life has its limits. More complicated than plasmodia are parasitic worms, locusts or cockroaches, which almost certainly do have at least limited consciousness. Yet that consciousness is still comparatively dim compared to vertebrates. Cockroaches have decentralized nervous systems. In consequence, they presumably lack a unitary experiential field. This is not to say that cockroaches should ever be wantonly hurt. Perhaps their constituent nerve ganglia in individual segments experience sharp pains; cockroaches retain rudimentary learning skills and live for up to a week without a head. Yet if the world's 4000 species of cockroach were no longer extant outside a handful of vivariums, then their absence in the wild would be accounted no great loss on any plausible version of the felicific calculus. Nor would extinction of the swarming grasshoppers we know as plagues of locusts. A swarm of 50 billion locusts can in theory eat 100,000 tonnes of foodstuffs per day. Around 20% of food grown for human consumption is eaten by herbivorous insects. A truly utopian future world would lack even minuscule insect pangs of hunger, and its computational resources could micro-manage the well-being of the humblest arthropods - including the Earth's estimated 10 quintillion (1018) insects. In the meantime, we must prioritize. On a neoBuddhist or utilitarian ethic, the criterion of value and moral status is degree of sentience. In a Darwinian world, the welfare of some beings depends on their doing harm to others. So initially, ugly compromises are inevitable as we bootstrap our way out of primordial Darwinian life. Research must focus on how the ugliness of the transitional era can be minimized.

More controversial than the case of tapeworms, cockroaches or locusts would be reprogramming or phasing out snakes and crocodiles. Snakes and crocodiles cause innumerable hideous deaths in the world each day. They are also part of our familiar conceptual landscape thanks to movies, zoos, TV documentaries, and the like - though a relaxed tolerance of their activities is easier in the comfortable West than for, say, a grieving Indian mother who has lost her child to a snakebite. Snakes are responsible for over 50,000 human deaths each year.

Most controversial of all, however, would be the extinction - or genetically-driven behavioural modification - of members of the cat family. We'll focus here on felines rather than the "easy" cases like parasitic tapeworms or cockroaches because of the unique status of members of the cat family in contemporary human culture, both as pets/companion animals and as our romanticised emblems of "wildlife". Most contemporary humans have a strong aesthetic preference in favour of continued feline survival. Their existence in current guise is perhaps the biggest ethical/ideological challenge to the radical abolitionist. For our culture glorifies lions, with their iconic status as the King of the Beasts; we admire the grace and agility of a cheetah; the tiger is a symbol of strength, beauty and controlled aggression; the panther is dark, swift and elegant; and so forth. Innumerable companies and sports teams have enlisted one or other of the big cats for their logos as symbols of manliness and vigour. Moreover cats of the domestic variety are the archetypal household pets. The worldwide domestic cat population has been estimated at around 400 million. We romanticize their virtues and forgive their foibles, notably their playful torment of mice. Indeed rather than being an object of horror - and compassion for the mouse - the torment of mice has been turned into stylized entertainment. Hence Tom-and-Jerry cartoons. By contrast, talk of "eliminating" predation can sound sinister. What would "phasing out" or "reprogramming" predators mean in practice? Most disturbingly, such terms are evocative of genocide, not universal compassion.

Appearances deceive. To get a handle on what is really going on in "predation", let's compare our attitude to the fate of a pig or a zebra with the fate of an organism with whom those non-human animals are functionally equivalent, both intellectually and in their capacity to suffer, namely a human toddler. On those rare occasions when a domestic dog kills a baby or toddler, the attack is front-page news. The offending dog is subsequently put down. Likewise, lions in Africa who turn man-eater are tracked down and killed, regardless of their conserved status. This isn't to imply lions - or for that matter rogue dogs - are morally culpable. But by common consent they must be prevented from killing any more human beings. By contrast, the spectacle of a lion chasing a terrified zebra and then asphyxiating its victim can be shown on TV as evening entertainment, edifying viewing even for children. How is this parallel relevant? Well, if our theory of value aspires to a God's-eye perspective, stripped of unwarranted anthropocentric bias in the manner of the physical sciences, then the well-being of a pig or a zebra inherently matters no less than the fate of a human baby - or any other organism endowed with an equivalent degree of sentience. If we are morally consistent, then as we acquire God-like powers over Nature's creatures, we should take analogous steps to secure their well-being too. Given our anthropocentric bias, thinking of non-human vertebrates not just as equivalent in moral status to toddlers or infants, but as though they were toddlers or infants, is a useful exercise because it helps correct our lack of empathy for sentient beings whose physical appearance is different from "us". Ethically, the practice of intelligent "anthropomorphism" shouldn't be shunned as unscientific, but embraced insofar as it augments our stunted capacity for empathy. Such anthropomorphism can be a valuable corrective to our cognitive and moral limitations. This is not a plea to be sentimental, simply for impartial benevolence. Nor is it even a plea to take "sides" between killer and prey. Human serial killers who prey on other humans need to be locked up. But ultimately, it's vindictive morally to blame them in any ultimate sense for the fate of their victims. Their behaviour supervenes on the fundamental laws of physics. Tout comprendre, c'est tout pardonner. Yet this indulgence doesn't extend to permitting them to kill again; and the abolitionist maintains the same principle holds good for nonhuman serial killers too.

Parasites, Predators and Serial Killers

Suffocation induces a sense of extreme panic. It's a comparatively rare experience in contemporary human life, although panic disorder, an anxiety disorder characterized by recurring severe panic attacks, is extremely unpleasant and quite common. Whatever its cause, the experience of suffocation is horrific. One's lungs feel as though they will burst at any second. There is a loss of control of bodily functions. There is no psychological "coping mechanism", just an all-consuming fear, as witnessed by the traumatic effects of the waterboarding torture practised by the CIA; the entangled piles of bodies of victims in the Nazi gas chambers frantically clawing over each other to gasp in the last traces of breathable air; and the death-agonies of millions of herbivores every day in the wild.
It would be a mercy if the experience of suffocation were fundamentally different in human and non-human animals. This fond hope might be realized if the intuitively appealing "dimmer-switch" model of consciousness were tenable - and an organism's degree of consciousness were reliably correlated with its degree of intelligence. The dimmer-switch model leads one to suppose that slow asphyxiation feels significantly less dreadful for a zebra than for a human being. Naïvely, we imagine that the asphyxiation of our vertebrate cousins is merely rather unpleasant for its victims rather than unbearable beyond words. Unfortunately, our core emotions are also the most intense modes of conscious experience; and the neural structures that mediate such primitive modes of consciousness are among the most strongly evolutionarily conserved. Intense fear, disgust, anger, hunger, thirst and pain are among the most powerful sensations known. They are phylogenetically ancient. Intense pleasure can of course be vivid too; but pleasure is not our focus here. In contrast to the phenomenology of our core emotions, the phenomenology of serial, "logical" thought-episodes in the distinctively human prefrontal cortex is vanishingly faint, as microelectrode studies and introspection of our own linguistic thought-episodes attest. Moreover the problem is worse than "just" the acute intensity of suffering. Wildlife documentaries encourage the notion that death in Nature is typically fast. Some deaths are indeed mercifully swift. Many other deaths are slow and agonizing. Simply to survive, members of the cat family in the wild must inflict appalling suffering on their fellow mammals. More disturbingly still, domestic cats torment millions of terrified small rodents and birds each day before killing them - essentially for entertainment. Cats lack an adequate theory of mind. They don't have an empathetic understanding of the implications of what they are doing. For a cat, the terrified mouse with whom it is "playing" has no more ethical significance than a zombie warrior slaughtered by a teenager playing "violent" videogames. But an absence of malice is no comfort to the tormented mouse.

Most modern city-dwellers do not lose any sleep over the cruelties of Nature, or indeed give them more than a passing thought. Implicitly, it's assumed such suffering doesn't matter. Or if it does matter, it doesn't matter enough to mitigate or abolish. Why? The list of reasons below is incomplete but worth noting.

Our supposed lack of complicity due to impotence.

Throughout most of history, mankind could no more contemplate reordering the food chain than contemporary humans could contemplate changing, say, Planck's constant or the rest mass of an electron. What happens in Nature is traditionally "just the way things are"; hence no one's fault. Shortly, however, the persistence of nonhuman animal suffering will be our direct responsibility - whether abdicated or accepted remains to be seen.

A television-based conception of the living world.
Our view of the living world is significantly shaped by wildlife documentaries - and the narrative structure that their voiceovers and uplifting mood-music provide. Wildlife documentaries are designed to be entertaining as well as educative. They offer a spectacle of death, violence and aggression in a manner that is no longer deemed acceptable when practised on humans. It's the same reason why for hundreds of years the Romans enjoyed the gory violence of the amphitheatre, and why nonhuman animals are still hunted by some humans for "sport". One contemporary psychological problem for many people in everyday life isn't pain or depression but boredom, a lack of stimulation. The sight of conflict and killing is exciting.

Selective realism.
We like our war movies and horror films to be realistic - but not too realistic. Likewise, wildlife documentaries aren't expected to portray the full nastiness of Darwinian life, although there would doubtless be a sizeable audience if they did so, as YouTube viewing figures attest. The question of "taste" ensures that the more squeamish sensibilities of a wider television audience are spared most of the horror while still being entertained by the drama. A few minutes of stalking. The ambush. The thrill of the chase. A five-second shot of the lion with its jaw on the zebra's throat. Next the camera cuts to a pride of lions eating a lifeless carcass. Realistic depictions of the full nastiness of predation are taboo. As David Attenborough once remarked to some viewers who complained that a scene shown was too gruesome: "You ought to see what we leave on the cutting room floor". This text hints at the horror, but words don't really portray it. And even the most explicit video couldn't evoke the first-person reality of being dismembered, strangled, impaled, drowned, poisoned or eaten alive. The problem of suffering in Nature described here is worse - and its prevention more morally urgent - than we suppose. For example, try to imagine what it's like slowly dying of thirst over several days during the dry season. There may be no overt drama. It's just subjectively horrific. Hence the ethical obligation on the dominant species to stop such horrors as soon as we acquire the technical expertise to do so.

Adaptive empathy deficits.
Human empathetic responses are shaped by natural selection. Genetically, it's fitness-enhancing for parents to experience an empathetic response to the feelings of their children, but maladaptive to feel compassion for their children's "food". Selection pressure for empathy toward members of other races or species - or genetic rivals - is weak to non-existent since such empathy wouldn't promote our reproductive success - except insofar as it enabled our ancestors hunt and kill more successfully, or outwit their enemies. The human mind/brain isn't designed to track the well-being of other members of our own species beyond our own tribe, let alone all other sentient beings. Such empathy sporadically occurs, but it has been selected, not selected for; its existence is just the byproduct of a fitness-enhancing adaptation. The discussion here focuses on empathy-deficits born of anthropocentric bias; but the ultimate empathy-deficit stems from egocentric bias. Coalitions of selfish genes throw up vehicles whose egocentric virtual worlds do not track the well-being of others sentient beings impartially. Perhaps only clones (i.e. identical twins, triplets, etc) could "naturally" do so reliably.

The cruelties of the living world are "natural", therefore worth conserving: a price worth paying for the glories of Nature.

This is the way things ought to be, because this is the way things have always been. Status quo bias is endemic. Thus it simply doesn't seem to have occurred to some otherwise smart thinkers in slave-owning societies that slavery could be morally wrong. Had the case for universal human freedom been put to them, the idea might well have seemed as silly as does questioning the inviolability of the food-chain at present. Potentially, status quo bias can take benign guises too. If we already lived in a cruelty-free world, the notion of re-introducing suffering, exploitation and creatures eating each other would seem not so much frightful as unimaginable - no more seriously conceivable than reverting to surgery without anaesthesia today. Of course the extent of our status quo bias shouldn't be exaggerated. There is something self-intimatingly wrong with one's own intense pain while it lasts; and to a greater or lesser degree, we can generalize this urgent sense of wrongness to other suffering beings with whom we identify. But since most humans aren't in agony most of the time, any generalizations we make tend to be weak; and restricted in scope on account of our evolutionary descent.

http://www.abolitionist.com/reprogramming/index.html
cont......

[Normalguy31]

What about canine teeth? Humans are born with canine teeth that are specifically designed for tearing meat. If we are not supposed to eat meat: why are we born with teeth to tear meat?

[Icecold]

Extinction versus Reprogramming

1) Extinction

One solution to the barbarities of predation is to use indiscriminate depot-contraception on carnivores and allow predators rapidly to die out, managing the resultant population effects on "prey" species via more selective forms of depot-contraception. Such advanced computer-controlled contraception technologies could be used selectively on zebra, buffalo, wildebeest, etc, so our wildlife parks don't become overpopulated. The feasibility of such population-management is shown by the use of fertility-regulating depot-contraception on male elephants living in the Kruger National Park in preference to the distressing practice of "culling". Most human wildlife enthusiasts prefer the use of depot-contraception as a means of population-control to killing families of elephants; but they also find the idea of an absence of lions even in our wildlife parks to be abhorrent. This may be so; but the case for selective extinction isn't absurd, even if we reject it after due deliberation. Why fetishise lifeforms endowed with a heritable tendency to prey on and strangulate others? Parallels with the Third Reich are best used sparingly; but sometimes they are apt. It's worth asking why there is such an extensive Net-based community that regards black-uniformed SS and their regalia as fascinating - far more fascinating than, say, colourless NKVD apparatchiks and the squalor of the Gulag, or the half-forgotten Ottoman genocide of the Armenians. If exercised with panache, extreme power and violence intrigue us. Thankfully, our captivation by stylish embodiments of evil has limits: immaculate SS are a lot more elegant than their victims on the way to asphyxiation in the gas chambers; but we aren't going to preserve or literally re-create them except in movies. Some monstrous lifeforms are best banished to the archives for good. By the same token, the spectacle of large predators hunting and asphyxiating their terrified victims is more visually compelling than herbivores browsing inoffensively. Which would you rather watch on TV? If there is misplaced emotion here, it lies in our fetishising the strong, handsome and powerful over the gentle and vulnerable.
It is worth stressing, repeatedly since the charge is made time and again, that this indictment of predators is not to blame a lion [or a domestic cat] for its behaviour. First, barring genetic engineering or freaks of nature, lions are obligate carnivores. Secondly, they don't understand the implications of what they are doing. Any mutant lion with a theory of mind capable of empathizing with its prey would be rapidly outbred by "sociopathic" lions. Barring human intervention, a compassionate lion who rejected the "law of the jungle" would starve to death. Consequently so would its cubs. Lions are "sociopathic" towards members of prey species, just as throughout history many humans have behaved sociopathically to members of other races and tribes - though enslavement has been more common in humans than cannibalism. ["Nothing more strongly arouses our disgust than cannibalism, yet we make the same impression on Buddhists and vegetarians, for we feed on babies, though not our own." Robert Louis Stevenson.] Either way, the extinction scenario for predatory lifeforms needs to be taken seriously - but not out of naïve moralism. The committed abolitionist may tentatively predict that centuries hence lions will not exist outside the digital archives - any more than the smallpox virus. For that matter, one may tentatively predict that the same fate will befall feral Homo sapiens. The conditionally activated capacity to act in bloodthirsty and sexually aggressive ways has been genetically adaptive in the past. We are all the descendants of murderers and rapists. Thus geneticists claim that over 16 million people today may be descended from Genghis Khan. But prediction is not advocacy.

Moreover, even if - contrary to what is argued here - one believes that lions and cheetahs are inherently valuable in exactly their current guise, there is still an opportunity-cost to their existence - where the opportunity-cost is the value of the next best alternative creature forgone as the result of choosing one lifeform over another. Are members of the cat family really ideal lifeforms? In a world of finite resources, only a small spectrum of phenotypes can be expressed out of the entire abstract state-space of possible genomes. Assume, as seems likely, that (post)humans will shortly have demigod-like powers over what kinds of lifeform and modes of consciousness the living world sustains. Ecological resources - and indeed mass-energy itself - will still be finite. If we opt to instantiate lions, then their existence entails depriving other species of life. So to judge that lions should exist is to affirm that it is better, in some sense, that sociopathic killing machines prowl the Earth rather than alternative herbivores. Taken literally, this argument ultimately applies to archaic Homo sapiens too. Is the source code of our constituent matter and energy optimally organized? Or would our DNA be better reconfigured to encode a species of blissfully superintelligent "smart angels"? The difference is that archaic humans will most likely become extinct not through outside agency, but as we progressively rewrite our own source code, reprogram "human nature", and bootstrap away into becoming posthuman.

2) Reprogramming

Alternatively, should carnivorous predators be genetically "reprogrammed" or otherwise behaviourally modified rather than allowed to go extinct in the "wild"? Pre-reflectively, such reprogramming is all but impossible. In practice, the technical expertise is probably a few decades away at most. One can see anticipations of post-Darwinian life even now, albeit at the level of individuals rather than whole species.
a) One example of behavioural management technology at work is the creation of remote-controlled rats ("ratbots"). Electrodes implanted in the pleasure centres of a rat's brain can make the rat follow instructions of its own volition, so to speak, at least from the perspective of the rat. Investigators currently anticipate that such enhanced rodents could be used to search for landmines or buried (human) victims of earthquakes. In the future, there is nothing to stop such technology being widely installed - together with mini-cameras and GPS tracking devices - in predatory carnivores to deter sociopathic violence against other sentient lifeforms. Indeed with the right reinforcement schedule, the most ferocious carnivore could be turned into a model citizen in our wildlife parks. With suitable surveillance and computer control, whole communities of ex-predators could be discreetly guided in the norms of non-violent behaviour. No "inhumanity" would be involved in the behavioural reshaping process since at no time are the brain's pain-centres stimulated. Nor does the augmented animal ever experience a sense of being made to act against its will. Yes, the ex-predator is "enslaved" to its reward circuitry; but so are humans. ["All men seek happiness. This is without exception. Whatever different means they employ, they all tend to this end. The cause of some going to war, and of others avoiding it, is the same desire in both, attended with different views. This is the motive of every action of every man, even of those who hang themselves." Blaise Pascal.] Indeed indefinitely generous doses of pure pleasure could be administered to members of the managed species in reward for "virtuous" behaviour.

Conversely, members of "prey" species can be bio-engineered to lose their currently well-justified terror of predators. Again, this re-engineering sounds technically daunting. Yet recall how rodents infected with the parasitic protozoan Toxoplasma gondii lose their normal fears and actually seek out cat urine-marked areas. Pharmacology, neuroelectrodes and genetic technologies all offer possible solutions to the molecular pathology of fear when its persistence becomes functionally redundant. In the long run, the same kinds of hedonic enrichment, intelligence-amplification and life-extension technologies available to humans later this century can be extended across the phylogenetic tree. "Health is a state of complete physical, mental and social well-being and not merely the absence of disease or infirmity", affirms the World Health Organization constitution. The abolitionist project broadens this pledge of complete physical, mental and social well-being beyond our own species to (ultimately) all sentient beings. Any such extension sounds fanciful now. So too would a description of contemporary human healthcare 200 years ago. The same ethical principle is at stake. Counter-intuitively, the "law of accelerating returns" of computer processing-power means that the transition to universal well-being could be accomplished in decades rather than millennia if a human governmental consensus existed - though centuries might be a more conservative timeframe for marine ecosystems.

b) Another anticipation of how reprogramming might work is found "naturally" in the wild. Between 2002 and 2004 a lioness christened Kamunyak ["The Blessed One" in Samburuin] in central Kenya repeatedly adopted a baby oryx, at least six times in all, protecting each baby oryx from other predators, including leopards and kindred hungry lions. Kamunyak even allowed a mother oryx occasionally to come and feed her calf before chasing her away. "The lioness must have a mental aberration", stated a UNESCO official in Nairobi. In principle, the hypernurturing behaviour of eusocial mammals like lions could be harnessed in genetically tweaked carnivores to protect members of species they currently predate. On this scenario, a ready dietary supply of cultured meat would have to be laid on as well unless more radical genetic interventions were made to alter existing lion physiology. Today, in vitro meat exists only as a laboratory curiosity. Commercial products are a decade or more away. But mass-producing cultured meat for "wild" or domestic carnivores should prove easier than creating the textures of genetically engineered meat needed to satisfy the more exacting tastes of gourmet human diners.

The technical details of such a program are of course challenging, to say the least. Nature has few food chains in the strict sense; complex food webs abound. But an ecosystem can support only around five or six trophic levels between its effectively insentient primary producers and the large predatory carnivores at the top of the trophic pyramid. For only 10% or so of an organism's energy is passed on to its predator; the rest is lost as heat to the environment. So the problems of humane ecosystem management should be computationally tractable in a well-run wildlife park. The entire African lion population is currently believed to be around 30,000, down from around 400,000 in 1950. Lion numbers are dwindling fast due to habitat loss and conflicts with humans. The remaining lion populations are often geographically isolated from each other. So inbreeding and a lack of genetic diversity are increasing. Outside of zoos and "wildlife" parks, lions will soon die out in the absence of human intervention, as will most large terrestrial mammals this century in the wake of habitat degradation. For instance, the Earth's most species-rich biome, tropical evergreen forest, is being lost at around two percent each year. Reprogramming and behavioural management technology can guarantee the civilised survival of reformed lions and their relatives for human ecotourists to enjoy, if we so choose.

One critical response to the prospect of reprogramming carnivorous predators runs as follows. A quasi-domesticated lion that does not prey on members of other species has ceased to be a true lion. Lions, by their very nature, kill members of prey species (and sometimes hyenas, cheetahs and each other). Yes, lions kill their victims in gruesome ways described as "bestial" if done by humans; but such behaviour is perfectly natural if practised by lions: it's one aspect of their "behavioural phenotype". Hunting behaviour is a natural part of their species essence.

Yet here we come to the nub of the issue: the alleged moral force of the term "natural". If any creature, by its very nature, causes terrible suffering, albeit unwittingly, is it morally wrong to change that nature? If a civilised human were to come to believe s/he had been committing acts that caused grievous pain for no good reason, then s/he would stop - and want other moral agents to prevent the recurrence of such behaviour. May we assume that the same would be true of a lion, if the lion were morally and cognitively "uplifted" so as to understand the ramifications of what it was doing? Or a housecat tormenting a mouse? Or indeed a human sociopath? Currently, sociopathy in humans cannot be cured; but various interventions, both genetic and pharmacological, have been mooted. When the therapeutic option does exist, should the treatment be offered? At present sociopathic human serial killers must be locked up for life. A "cure" that enabled human serial killers to become truly pro-social, empathetic beings would indeed "rob" them of their former identity. Such an intervention would be "coercive", maybe not in the strict sense, but effectively so if the alternative is being locked up indefinitely. The same is true of violent repeat sex-offenders. Now consider another form of behaviour in lions whose practice by humans would spell incarceration for life. A mature male lion is genetically programmed to go into a pride, challenge the reigning male, and (if the invading male is victorious) methodically kill off the young cubs of the defeated male. Killing his rival's cubs helps maximize the inclusive fitness of his DNA. Their mother will then go on heat again so the invading male lion can mate with her and sire his own cubs. Around a third of all lion cubs born perish in this way. Mercifully, nothing so mechanistic plays out with human stepfathers and young stepchildren. But statistically, it is immensely more risky to be raised as a stepchild than by both one's biological parents. If there were therapeutic interventions that could help stifle hostile feelings on the part of stepfathers to young stepchildren, would their use be desirable? Many stepfathers, for instance, might welcome their availability. Otherwise decent parents may be disturbed by the hostile feelings they feel toward their stepchildren - even though the vast majority of stepparents do not act on them in the extreme form practised by male lions. Infanticide is cruel irrespective of the species identity of the perpetrator. In the future, interventions can prevent its occurrence in our wildlife parks even at the price of tweaking the "natural" genomes of their members.



A Pan-Species Welfare State?

Over the last century, a welfare state for humans was introduced in Western European societies so that the most vulnerable members of our own species wouldn't suffer avoidable hardship. Even in affluent Western nations, coverage can be woefully inadequate, notably in the USA. Provision in Third World nations ranges from the excellent to patchy to almost non-existent. And by the standards of posterity, all contemporary healthcare will presumably seem rudimentary. But a commitment to the underlying principle, at least, is well-established: no one should literally starve or suffer death or debility from preventable illness. Likewise, universal education is designed to maximise life opportunities for all. Universal healthcare aims to ensure everyone gets medical treatment. Child-support agencies intervene when vulnerable children are at risk of abuse or neglect. Initially, Social Darwinists decried the introduction of such safeguards; eugenicists fretted that a welfare state would allow the "unfit" to breed and propagate "bad" genes; free-market fundamentalists worried that a safety-net would sap habits of manly self-reliance; and so forth. Yet the need for at least basic welfare guarantees now seems obvious, though controversy persists over their nature and optimal extent - and financing. Social Darwinism in its rawest form now has few defenders beyond devotees of Ayn Rand. The problem is not just that existing welfare provision is inadequate: it's also arbitrarily species-specific. In common with the plight of vulnerable humans before its introduction, the welfare of vulnerable non-human animals mostly depends on private charity. No universal guarantees of non-human well-being exist. Vivisection, the abomination of factory-farming, and the industrialized mass-killing of nonhuman animals persists unchecked. Beyond our closest cousins the great apes, the systematic extension of state-enforced welfare guarantees to other species "in the wild", sounds too far-fetched an option to generate sustained critical analysis. Proverbially, charity begins at home; let's worry about "our" species first. No great ideological debate has erupted on the case for compassionate ecosystem redesign because the case for preserving the ecological status quo is perceived as too obvious to need defending; and the transformative potential of biotech, infotech and nanotech is still barely glimpsed. Traditionally, of course, Nature has just seemed too Big. Insofar as any justification at all has been felt necessary for wild animal suffering, the narrative told to rationalize the cruelties of Nature has claimed that predation of the sick and the weak is for "the good of the species". This fable is no longer scientifically tenable. Natural selection doesn't operate on that level. Further, it is equally unDarwinian to suppose there is some fundamental ontological and ethical gulf between "us" and "them", between primates of the genus Homo and nonhuman animals. On any universal ethic, the inclusive rather than contrastive use of "we" must extend to all sentient beings.

However, the most formidable obstacle to reprogramming predators and designing compassionate ecosystems isn't ideology but simple status quo bias. Most of the arguments elaborated against abolishing suffering in humans don't even get off the ground in nonhumans. The anguish of members of others species will not inspire its victims to create great works of art or literature, build their characters, afford interesting contrasts, allow opportunities for personal growth, and so on. It's just nasty and inherently pointless. On the face of it, reprogramming the source code of the rest of the living world is orders of magnitude computationally harder than re-engineering humans. But the immensity of task shouldn't be overstated. For the technical challenges of reprogramming nonhuman animals are in some respects easier to overcome than in humans. Thus one of the most formidable stumbling-blocks to sustainable mood-enrichment in humans isn't engineering raw pleasure - wireheading or speedballing could do that now. What's hard is reprogramming our reward circuitry in ways than don't compromise our social responsibility and cognitive performance - not just on gross measures of the sorts of cleverness scored by IQ tests, but subtler abilities involving creativity, empathetic understanding, introspective self-insight - and perhaps too the capacity for fundamental self-doubt from which future intellectual revolutions may spring. In short, the challenge lies in preventing the superhappy from becoming either "opiated" or manic. Similar constraints on the future happiness of nonhuman animals either don't apply to the same degree or don't apply at all. The prospect of "lions on Soma" may be surreal; but it's difficult to see how its introduction could be judged reckless or immoral.

Clearly as it stands, the abolitionist project is more of a sketch than a blueprint. So one urgent priority is the creation of academic research programs so that abolitionist scholarship can become a rigorous scientific discipline. Such a discipline will not be value-free; but nor will it be any more normative than conservation biology - or scientific medicine. A critical aspect of advanced ecosystem redesign will be prior computational modelling - the exhaustive hunt for previously unanticipated side-effects of interventions at different tropic levels in the "food chain". Philosophical manifestos can gloss over technical difficulties; wildlife park management teams will need to confront them. Either way, abolitionism needs to enter the academic and political mainstream, with organizational structures and advocacy groups to match. A cruelty-free world will entail coordinated national, intergovernmental and United Nations action on an unprecedented scale.

Understandably, sceptics can dismiss such scenarios as sheer technofantasy. The sociological, ethico-religious and ideological obstacles to the design of a cruelty-free planetary ecosystem can seem insurmountable even if its ultimate technical feasibility is acknowledged. But predicting the growth of a global anti-speciesist ethic to complement an anti-racist ethic isn't as unreasonable as it first sounds. Consider the central dogmas of the world's major religions. To what extent is the abolitionist project a disguised implication of some of our core principles? Ahimsa, the Sanskrit term meaning to do no harm (literally: the avoidance of violence - himsa) is central to the family of religions originating in ancient India: Hinduism, Buddhism and especially Jainism. Ahimsa is a rule of conduct that bars the killing or injuring of living beings. The ecosystem redesign advocated here is essentially the scientific expression of ahimsa on a global scale, shorn of its karmic metaphysics. It's true that Judaeo-Christian and Islamic religion have been less sympathetic historically to the interests of nonhuman animals than the non-Abrahamic traditions of the Indian subcontinent. Throughout much of the Christian era, vegetarianism in Western Europe was regarded as a heresy. God's Biblical promise of "dominion" over the rest of the animal kingdom has standardly been interpreted as divine license for domination and exploitation. Yet "dominion" can also be (re)interpreted as responsibility for stewardship. What if Isaiah 66:3 ["He that slayeth an ox is as he that slayeth a man"] is correct and the lion really can lie down with the lamb? Would a compassionate God want us to preserve the biology of suffering when its perpetuation becomes optional? Recall too that (with one exception) each of the 114 suras of the Islamic Qur'an begins, "Allah is merciful and compassionate." The name of God used most often in the Qur'an is "al-Rahim", meaning literally "the All-Compassionate." Any implication that God's compassion is stunted compared to the moral imagination of mere mortals might seem blasphemous. Muhammad the Prophet speaks of the need for "universal mercy". According to one tradition (Hadith Mishkat 3:1392) Muhammad taught that "all creatures are like a family of God; and He loves the most those who are the most beneficent to His family." As infotech, nanorobotics and biotechnology mature - or accelerate - perhaps religious and secular ethicists alike will treat the maximal relief of suffering as the default assumption from which departures need to be justified, not a radical new ethic in need of justification itself. On almost every future scenario, we're destined to "play God". So let's aim to be compassionate gods and replace the cruelty of Darwinian life with something better.

David Pearce (2009)

http://www.abolitionist.com/reprogramming/index.html

[ponda]

What about canine teeth? Humans are born with canine teeth that are specifically designed for tearing meat. If we are not supposed to eat meat: why are we born with teeth to tear meat?

Those choppers are for woofing into a veggie burger;)

[Icecold]

What about canine teeth? Humans are born with canine teeth that are specifically designed for tearing meat. If we are not supposed to eat meat: why are we born with teeth to tear meat?


Those teeth you are talking about are for eating nuts not meat.

[Normalguy31]

Links/references would be great. I usually use my molars to chew nuts.

[Arrowwind]

Yes, it is a balance and what is right for one person is not right for another.
a vegetarian diet of 13 years for me ran me into the ground and I was very knowlegable on the how to of it.

My body was desparate for large doses of protien.

There is tons and tons of evidence that an Atikins like diet will restore one's health, cure type 2 diabetes, lower cholesterol,
clear out the vascular system.

It is excessive carbs from wheat and other grains that are the killers and alter the internal chemistry of the body causing disease.


Such posts as these do absolutley nothing for the spiritual growth of individuals.

and there is a lot of arrogance I see in it., designed to promote guilt, fear and lies.

Love for the earth, for all her children, deep respect for life and the circle of live is all that is required.
The Native Americans have it right.

and since the white mans diet has come their way they suffer from diabetes like no other group
and when they go to their medicine men for help they are told to leave the white mans diet of flour, rice
and excessive beans behind, and go out and hunt and gather, and then their health is restored.

Although genetically the white man is better adapted to the high carbohydrate diet, they suffer from it too
with lessor serious chronic disease, but serious non the less. Now with all the trash food interjected by processed
food chronic disease is overwhelming the white man at younger and younger ages.

There is no climate short of tropical that can support a purely vegetarian diet year round. Without modern transportation
and shipping the vegetarian would be doomed in North and South Dakota, Wyoming, Idaho. Ultimately it is not a sustainable program.

and yes, the feed lots are atrocious, and should be against the law.
If all the fields of wheat, rye, and barley in the USA were used for grazing that would solve our diet and disease issues.
Once upon a time our bread basket supported many millions of buffalo without having to feed them over the winter.
If Yaks were raised instead of angus little to no hay would have to be shipped.
Its all about sustainability...


and when people do not get enough protien they reach for the trash carbs for a rush...pasta, tortillas, bowls of trash cereal,
sugar etc. All they know is that they crave, but know not what they need.

and humanity ate meat predominantly for thousands of years, before agriculture came about. With agriculture came the rotting of the teeth, the cardiovascular disease...The body is designed for meat eathing in many many ways.. and with out meat vegatarians become chronically B12 deficient... and they also develop low stomach acid which has profound metabolic consequences...

BTW, 98% of milking cows do not have their calves slaughtered for veal.. after they are weaned the mother continues to give milk if she is regularly milked... same for goats.

Perhaps some people need to live on a farm for a while to see how it is really done.

Basically I consider this thread as pseudo-spiritual propaganda and do not wish to get further into the arugment. I only post for those who do eat meat and think it is right for them, to support them... and I will not return to this thread, even if notified as I have no interest in trying to change anyone's beliefs who started this thread.

[astrid]

Thanks for your response Constance.

And yes this could spin of onto a long and complex thread.

I will just say that people with non- neurotypical brains aren't broken, we just think differently
and thrive in certain conditions that the mainstream doesn't generally provide for.
Think in terms of us being hunters in a farmers world ,think evolutionary not illness here.

I was born with this, and my mother is Austic so its not something that can be fixed,
just like a person born with half an arm can't be fixed. But there are lots of work arounds, which i use .
If i limit my dealings with mainstream and work mainly in the higher realms , i do ok.

The biggest hurdles we often face is trying to explain to people without these types of brains, how things are for us.
It gets frustrating and distressing so i don't generally bother getting into this.
So i will won't elaborate any more, as it will just derail the thread further.

( but we can chat in pm more if u like)

Blessings,

Astrid

[Constance]

ffffffffffffffffffffffffff

[Arrowwind]

What about canine teeth? Humans are born with canine teeth that are specifically designed for tearing meat. If we are not supposed to eat meat: why are we born with teeth to tear meat?


Those teeth you are talking about are for eating nuts not meat.

Just try to chew a steak without them.. They work dam good!

[Icecold]

Links/references would be great. I usually use my molars to chew nuts.

Humans are "designed" to eat fruit, nuts and "succulent" vegetables. Yeah, we have "canine" teeth, but they're the same length as our other teeth so they're not particularly effective at tearing flesh. Also, our teeth are not strong enough to allow us to crack open bones (which true carnivores do to get at the nutrient-rich marrow). We do eat meat, but only when cooked, so that's like cheating. Frugivores is the term for it. Most primates are frugivores, and we are, too.

Gorilla

http://cristanwilliams.com/angry_gorilla_small.jpg
A vegetarian....yes.

Explain your theory of canines based upon this animal which has enormous 'canines'.

[ponda]

Links/references would be great. I usually use my molars to chew nuts.

Humans are "designed" to eat fruit, nuts and "succulent" vegetables. Yeah, we have "canine" teeth, but they're the same length as our other teeth so they're not particularly effective at tearing flesh. Also, our teeth are not strong enough to allow us to crack open bones (which true carnivores do to get at the nutrient-rich marrow). We do eat meat, but only when cooked, so that's like cheating. Frugivores is the term for it. Most primates are frugivores, and we are, too.

Gorilla

http://cristanwilliams.com/angry_gorilla_small.jpg
A vegatarian....yes.

Explain your theory of canines based upon this animal which has enormous 'canines'.


He looks like someone just swiped his banana sandwich....

[Arpheus]

Links/references would be great. I usually use my molars to chew nuts.

Humans are "designed" to eat fruit, nuts and "succulent" vegetables. Yeah, we have "canine" teeth, but they're the same length as our other teeth so they're not particularly effective at tearing flesh. Also, our teeth are not strong enough to allow us to crack open bones (which true carnivores do to get at the nutrient-rich marrow). We do eat meat, but only when cooked, so that's like cheating. Frugivores is the term for it. Most primates are frugivores, and we are, too.

Gorilla

http://cristanwilliams.com/angry_gorilla_small.jpg
A vegatarian....yes.

Explain your theory of canines based upon this animal which has enormous 'canines'.


He looks like someone just swiped his banana sandwich....

Thanks for the chuckle Ponda hehehe :p

[Icecold]

Baboon: Diet

Largely vegetarian....

Baboons are opportunistic omnivores and selective feeders that carefully choose their food. Grass makes up a large part of their diet, along with berries, seeds, pods, blossoms, leaves, roots, bark and sap from a variety of plants. Baboons also eat insects and small quantities of meat, such as fish, shellfish, hares, birds, vervet monkeys and young, small antelopes.

http://fishslapsababy.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/baboon-jaws-300x237.jpg


Just because we have rudimentary fangs does not mean we HAVE to eat meat.

Millions of humans thrive on a vegetarian diet...its a fact.

The cruelty and non-violence issue nails it.

[Carmody]

This is something I realized very quickly when I switched between eating/not eating meat several times over the course of three years. The energy (awareness?) difference is astonishing. Annie Besant outlined it very well in the Ancient Wisdom. (http://health.medicbd.com/library/document_play/6448060) I no longer eat any meat and avoid dairy; though love pizza.

To be honest the higher energy state of never in-taking dairy would probably be a bit much - I've not got the control for being so empathetic.

Daring post none the less. I very, very rarely mention these views to anyone. People love meat to much.

Yes, this is exactly what i spoke of. My empathy and capacity for such similar considerations was so high that I retreated to the thing that I knew I could do and was, well, seemingly natural. To help the lost souls get back. Better yet, help them in the very act of becoming lost, via direct overlay in the death moment. They are difficult to find in the darkness of that particular astral realm...so..go to where it starts! Simple enough.

That could, for the larger part... ONLY be done when in a pure vegan vibrational mode.

right now I eat a bit of fish and a bit of chicken. I'll likely dump the chicken and then move to only fish..and then start cutting the fish out. That's the way I did it last time. however, I was raised on a diet that farmers in North America would eat. Meat'n'potatoes. Anything that runs away -is for eating, is how to goes.

I can't buy a piece of meat and put it in a frying pan any more. It is just too difficult. The wasps own my barbecue, now... for the past three years... and I won't kill them, either.

I don't eat red meat anymore, I practically get dizzy in the meat section of the supermarket. I look at the steaks and the differing animal cuts... and I nearly loose it right there in the store.

[Lord Sidious]

This is a conclusion I have come to recently after reading some info on the topic.
It isn't really rocket science I suppose, the animal suffers, that has to affect you.
It would be no different in that way to prostitution and drugs, just a matter of degrees.
Question for you avalonguggets, does this apply to thinks like eggs and milk as well?

By the way, never apologise for a post's length if it is high quality, that is what we want more of.

Good...and yes...it does apply to eggs and milk as well. They are animal products.

I don't comprehend that part then.
There isn't suffering for the animals if they are treated properly if we take their eggs and milk, but cows suffer if not milked.
So how does this work?

LS,
thanks for sharing...
I have something to share with you...

I have shared this before on another post but I will share it again here.

I have a friend who has a very good relationship with animals. You might say that he is telepathic.
One day, he connected with a cow who was standing in a feedlot.

When he connected with that cow, he felt that cows energy.
That cow was so miserable, it didn't want to be there.
It didn't even know why it was there.

When cows are allowed to roam freely on pastures, they align themselves with the magnetic grids of the earth.
Their horns are antennae.
If you have ever observed cows grazing naturally in pastures, they will always align themselves with the grids.
They cannot align themselves with the grids if they are kept in unnatural circumstances and they become confused.
When WE ingest milk, we ingest that confused energy.
Have you ever noticed LS how nature is perfect when not tampered with?
There is the old argument that milk is designed for baby cows.

I did see that post of yours and found it to be believable.
The ley lines have more power than we realise.
What if the cows weren't mistreated, but allowed to wander freely? I have seen farms like that and the cows come in each morning to be milked by themselves.
I would like to keep having milk in my tea/coffee if possible, hence the questions.
Eggs, I can live without.


I will not argue weather or not eating meat shuts down your dna and hinders or slows your ascension. It is really the first time i have heard the concept ..and i have heard a lot about the ascension .

What i will say is that i do know or have heard and can believe.. That Meat was forced into our diets in such amounts. As a way to make us much more aggressive. So then yeah you can sell me on eating meat makes it harder to keep a peaceful state.

I read that on this forum the other day.
I have never heard of it before, but you know what? It feels true.
Think about this, the animal has some type of soul/spirit.
We are trying to raise ours to a higher vibration. Eating the animals meat could be seen as a type of exploitation.
That being the case, it would have to harm our efforts.


This is something I realized very quickly when I switched between eating/not eating meat several times over the course of three years. The energy (awareness?) difference is astonishing. Annie Besant outlined it very well in the Ancient Wisdom. (http://health.medicbd.com/library/document_play/6448060) I no longer eat any meat and avoid dairy; though love pizza.

To be honest the higher energy state of never in-taking dairy would probably be a bit much - I've not got the control for being so empathetic.

Daring post none the less. I very, very rarely mention these views to anyone. People love meat to much.

Is it that much of a big deal? The not eating meat?
Why do people freak out?
This one is hard to get my head around.
If you told me like you did in this post, it wouldn't annoy me, even back before I was learning all the spiritual topics.



I will not argue weather or not eating meat shuts down your dna and hinders or slows your ascension. It is really the first time i have heard the concept ..and i have heard a lot about the ascension .

What i will say is that i do know or have heard and can believe.. That Meat was forced into our diets in such amounts. As a way to make us much more aggressive. So then yeah you can sell me on eating meat makes it harder to keep a peaceful state.

Yes...It has been forced into our diets as a way to make us more aggressive. And it is highly acidic.

One of my friends swears we should be alkaline in balance, so I find that very interesting about meat being acidic.
I was joyed to discover that olives have an alkaline affect on the body.
I only just discovered them 6 months or so ago and can't get enough of em.
As far as veges go, even as a small child, I loved them.
My mother had no problems getting me to eat them and I preferred them to sweets.
Still do.




Links/references would be great. I usually use my molars to chew nuts.

Humans are "designed" to eat fruit, nuts and "succulent" vegetables. Yeah, we have "canine" teeth, but they're the same length as our other teeth so they're not particularly effective at tearing flesh. Also, our teeth are not strong enough to allow us to crack open bones (which true carnivores do to get at the nutrient-rich marrow). We do eat meat, but only when cooked, so that's like cheating. Frugivores is the term for it. Most primates are frugivores, and we are, too.

Gorilla

http://cristanwilliams.com/angry_gorilla_small.jpg
A vegatarian....yes.

Explain your theory of canines based upon this animal which has enormous 'canines'.


He looks like someone just swiped his banana sandwich....

He could be a sheriffs gorilla and someone stole his donut!
Ok, sorry, couldn't help it.

[HORIZONS]

Question: What is the point of existence for domestic cattle and poultry if not as a food source? If the people of the world did not eat them we would still have to kill them as there would be no place for them to live "free" as wild beasts of the field.

I think it all boils down to a personal choice as all individuals are just that - Individual.

I also think getting rid of factory farms where cruelty reigns is a good thing -- but you know what... cruelty reigns in the human sphere as well with mans inhumanity to man, so no wonder man treats his animal food source like crap - so when we get this human condition dealt with and man being who he is created to be, and not the expression we see today, then we will deal with the animal issue successfully.

Balance in all things - and listen to YOUR inner body - it will tell you what its needs are and what it wants, if you have ears to hear.

[noprophet]

Is it that much of a big deal? The not eating meat?
Why do people freak out?
This one is hard to get my head around.
If you told me like you did in this post, it wouldn't annoy me, even back before I was learning all the spiritual topics.

My father would probably stop talking to me for several hours if I tried to explain any sense of these ideas to him. He's a hunter/farmer and I grew up on cow/deer/potatoes/carrots :P

He only recently gave up arguing with me about being a vegetarian. I know he's not a minority either.

You might be surprised how some people get agitated at the mere mention of something affecting they're habitual diets.

It's why theosophy was breaking it down in 1850 and we're just now getting it.

[Constance]

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[Normalguy31]

I fully comprehend the concept of frugivores. I don't know about yours, but my "canine" teeth, I don't know why you feel the need to put quotation marks around this, are longer than the rest of my teeth. here is my link http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/92589/canine-teeth

I understand that gorillas get most of their protein from other sources, but humans have been eating meat for centuries. I don't agree with raising meat in a machine like fashion, and slaughtering them in an assembly line, but I think that eating free range meat is ok. It's just my opinion. It doesn't make it right or wrong.

[Constance]

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[Normalguy31]

Not at all Constance, and I hope that you don't think that you have lost a friend here. I come from a Native American background who worshiped the creator for giving them animals to eat. These animals also gave them tools, and clothes to survive. Maybe we as humans have evolved beyond this point, and we don't have to do these things anymore. BUT this is my background, and it still influences me today.

[Carmody]

With the MMS and other such things to clear the bugs out of the gut..it might be easier to do for me...this time.

To add, the north American food delivery, production, and sales system is not all that favorable to anyone who wishes to try a pure vegan approach.

As for the body builder's thing. When I was on a pure vegan diet I was working out constantly. 6 pack abs, run like the wind (I could out run my sled dog), bench 155-185lbs, 60lb incline dumbbell press, etc, etc.

I did what might be known as a 'timeline jump' at that time in my life.... and then I went back to being semi-'normal' in my diet, one might say.

[Constance]

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[Normalguy31]

I have not heard this. I am a young man with an open mind, and maybe you will enlighten me. I have heard many stories of Native American cultures hunting animals that are centuries old. Maybe these stories have been diluted, and changed, but this is what I know. I think what you are saying is absolutely right, but this is what I have been told also. So I feel the need to tell them.

No I was not there, but I hope that TPTB haven't infiltrated my Native American culture so much as to make up these stories

[Teakai]

What about canine teeth? Humans are born with canine teeth that are specifically designed for tearing meat. If we are not supposed to eat meat: why are we born with teeth to tear meat?

Hi Normalguy - have you seen the canines on gorillas?

Edit to add - just saw that Icecold got in with that one already :)

[Inelia]

Hi Constance,

Feel free to add my name to the article. I stand by it 100%.

Of course, the optimum solution is to EAT AND DRINK NOTHING AT ALL. But use methods such as sungazing and breatharian nourishment.

Does food change your DNA? Only if you let it.

[Constance]

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[dddanieljjjamesss]

diet is only as important as you make it
not everyone is going the same direction
i eat what is available, and when it is not, i don't

[Constance]

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[Normalguy31]

Good. I'm very glad - Friend

You hit the nail on the head. We have as humans evolved beyond this point.

What we do now is most relevant.

As I said before in another post, you do need to be ready/willing/able to make this leap.

with much Love and Light to you Normalguy31,
Constance

I joined this forum to learn my friend, and I think you have taught me a lesson tonight ( I'm in the US) I will start trying to get my protein from other sources, as I have started to before I posted in this thread :)

[Constance]

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[Inelia]

Inelia,

Glad you have finally made it here. :)

I have some questions for you if that is okay to ask them?

The questions I want to ask you are...

Are YOU beyond all influences?

Do you still eat and if so why do you eat?

Do we have freewill?

No, I am not beyond all influences. But I can spot them pretty quickly for the most part. My Achilles heel is my physical body. During energy work, especially if it involves interacting with low vibrational (negative) beings, it will sometimes suffer pain or sickness.

I do still eat. But only by choice. As a child I did not need to eat, but it freaked my parents and they force fed me. It caused an enormous amount of problems for me at the time. As an adult I did have the choice not to eat, this is something we all have. It's just a matter of learning a method of nourishment that works for one, which could be just meditation, or something like sungazing or the breatharian method, and I'm sure there are others. But I decided to continue eating/drinking because it was physically pleasurable. Although I do eat very little. Ideally I eat local produce, mostly vegetables and fruits, I do include animal products sometimes, but this is minimized due to the reasons mentioned in the article. If one infuses the food and drink products with divine life force before ingesting, it does have a huge effect on it and our bodies afterward.

In the last few weeks I've felt a very strong call to go back to a no food nourishment method. A point I'd like to clarify is that this is not something to be taken lightly, it is not a "diet". It can take months to establish, and sometimes years. The reason, as far as I can see, is that our bodies are actually independent to the big being, as it were. They are their own being/s and have a consciousness and time line. Therefore, whatever method we choose, has to be with the body's agreement. It has to be something the body enjoys. It is also not for everyone at this time. But the more people who wish to explore it and integrate it, the better for the planet, the persons and the collective.

Do we have free will? That depends who "we" are. The majority of the human collective does not have free will. Their will is being subdued by influence and slumber. Anyone who is awake at any level at all, does have free will to the degree in which he or she is awake.

update: Do I have experience with this myself? Yes.

[Arpheus]

This thread is going to go on for a while Constance hehe,i bow to your courage tho,cause your gonna take a lot of unnecessary heat for making this thread,but so far you seem to be handling things just fine,keep it up my dear !

[Odah]

so constance you want me to believe

A eating any animal products will hinder ascension .. which is the first time i have ever heard that.. and i have listend to a lot of stuff on ascension.

B that meat is only recently added to our diets. and any historic mention of it is lies created by the powers that be. Forget that most indiginus culture aroudn the world are hunter gatherers. and the native american culture where highly spiritual hunter gather tribes.

C believe that we really don't have to eat. When eating together was a very spiritual and valued part of most cultures.


I do totally understand that as we progress we will have to move back to a mostly vegatation diet with limited amilimal protiens mainly from fish . basically because it will no longer be economically viable to raise cattle and other livestock like we do now.

We will grow highly nutrient rich plants in hydropinc farms and other farms built around our cities and get fish from close by as well.. there is nothing spiritually bad about eating meat . just that after we ascend my belief is we won't need to eat as much and we will get a lot of our energy without having to eat.. that is after we ascend though.

But my guilde and intuition has warned me that i will absolutly have to go through major detoxification and move to a much more vegitation based diet than i have now .. but they tell me i can indulge for now . what is happening though is i am having a much harder time tasting meat..so eventually i will change .. right now i am broke and a meat heavy diet is actually cheeper ..for now

[Constance]

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[Constance]

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[Calz]

Grass is a primary protein. Milk is the secondary protein that we are consuming. Why not go straight to the source? There are so many books already written on this topic alone so please forgive me if you have heard this before.
"The food revolution" by John Robbins covers this beautifully.
It is still only one tiny piece of the jigsaw puzzle but it is a piece nevertheless.

Thank you Constance for a very thought provoking thread.

How many "pieces of the jigsaw puzzle" would need to be gathered to approach a "complete picture" in your assessment?

Do you have something of a condensed list in another post or thread you can share?

[Constance]

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[Constance]

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[Lord Sidious]

Is it that much of a big deal? The not eating meat?
Why do people freak out?
This one is hard to get my head around.
If you told me like you did in this post, it wouldn't annoy me, even back before I was learning all the spiritual topics.

My father would probably stop talking to me for several hours if I tried to explain any sense of these ideas to him. He's a hunter/farmer and I grew up on cow/deer/potatoes/carrots :P

He only recently gave up arguing with me about being a vegetarian. I know he's not a minority either.

You might be surprised how some people get agitated at the mere mention of something affecting they're habitual diets.

It's why theosophy was breaking it down in 1850 and we're just now getting it.

Being a farmer, I see the issue.
For anyone that isn't involved in the industry of meat farming, I don't know why it would be an issue.
But there you go, nuggetry abounds across the planet.

[jackovesk]

Yeah..Yeah!

All I need is another 'New Age' Guilt Trip!

Gutsy Post Constance Neal...

Well according to you, I therefore consider my DNA shutdown forever!


Hello there everyone,

For all of you who are attached to eating animal products for whatever reason, you are not going to like what I have to say. I don't expect to make any friends over this.

with Love and Light,
Constance

No Constance, you have 'Every Right' to express your views on Avalon.

However, I don't agree with you and will continue to eat meat, together with a healthy portion of fresh vegetables as I have always done!

What's on the menu tonight?

http://cdn.taste.com.au/images/recipes/sfi/2005/11/835.jpg

Steak & Vegetables...Yum-Yum! :pound:

[ThePythonicCow]

The reason, as far as I can see, is that our bodies are actually independent to the big being, as it were.
Each (our bodies on the one hand, and the higher spiritual order on the other hand), has cycles and order of its own. Sometimes the body serves its own purposes; sometimes it serves a higher purpose; sometimes I suppose it serves neither very well ;).

Perhaps that parting blessing "May the Force be with you" is backwards. Perhaps it should be said "May you be with the Force."

[skyflower]

if eating meat shuts down our dna, then maybe that is the reason why so many have been "asleep" , and we find our world in the current state today.

But if energies from the center of our galaxy are coming in at monstrous amounts, and THAT being the reason why Earth is doing its dance, shaking off all negative energies along the process...
well then, shouldn't that be the same for our bodies, and DNA? wouldn't the "ascension" process include cleaning up all the junk energies we have absorbed by just living in this environment? A test through the fire....indeed.

[Omni]

I don't know about it shutting down DNA... I think that might be a bit overboard. But animal products may very well have bad effects IMHO.

I wish I had the answer to this. And I wonder how others got their answers...

[dr.abbadon]

Yes, it is a balance and what is right for one person is not right for another.
a vegetarian diet of 13 years for me ran me into the ground and I was very knowlegable on the how to of it.

My body was desparate for large doses of protien.

There is tons and tons of evidence that an Atikins like diet will restore one's health, cure type 2 diabetes, lower cholesterol,
clear out the vascular system.

It is excessive carbs from wheat and other grains that are the killers and alter the internal chemistry of the body causing disease.


Such posts as these do absolutley nothing for the spiritual growth of individuals.

and there is a lot of arrogance I see in it., designed to promote guilt, fear and lies.

Love for the earth, for all her children, deep respect for life and the circle of live is all that is required.
The Native Americans have it right.

and since the white mans diet has come their way they suffer from diabetes like no other group
and when they go to their medicine men for help they are told to leave the white mans diet of flour, rice
and excessive beans behind, and go out and hunt and gather, and then their health is restored.

Although genetically the white man is better adapted to the high carbohydrate diet, they suffer from it too
with lessor serious chronic disease, but serious non the less. Now with all the trash food interjected by processed
food chronic disease is overwhelming the white man at younger and younger ages.

There is no climate short of tropical that can support a purely vegetarian diet year round. Without modern transportation
and shipping the vegetarian would be doomed in North and South Dakota, Wyoming, Idaho. Ultimately it is not a sustainable program.

and yes, the feed lots are atrocious, and should be against the law.
If all the fields of wheat, rye, and barley in the USA were used for grazing that would solve our diet and disease issues.
Once upon a time our bread basket supported many millions of buffalo without having to feed them over the winter.
If Yaks were raised instead of angus little to no hay would have to be shipped.
Its all about sustainability...


and when people do not get enough protien they reach for the trash carbs for a rush...pasta, tortillas, bowls of trash cereal,
sugar etc. All they know is that they crave, but know not what they need.

and humanity ate meat predominantly for thousands of years, before agriculture came about. With agriculture came the rotting of the teeth, the cardiovascular disease...The body is designed for meat eathing in many many ways.. and with out meat vegatarians become chronically B12 deficient... and they also develop low stomach acid which has profound metabolic consequences...

BTW, 98% of milking cows do not have their calves slaughtered for veal.. after they are weaned the mother continues to give milk if she is regularly milked... same for goats.

Perhaps some people need to live on a farm for a while to see how it is really done.

Basically I consider this thread as pseudo-spiritual propaganda and do not wish to get further into the arugment. I only post for those who do eat meat and think it is right for them, to support them... and I will not return to this thread, even if notified as I have no interest in trying to change anyone's beliefs who started this thread.

I operate in the food service sector. One of the things I have noticed is that our guests who dine with us complain a lot less these days. We have moved from purchasing produce from large whole sale businesses to small independent producers of fruit, vegetables and meat. The produce looks "ugly" when it comes in, all different shapes and sizes, colours .....but tastes fantastic. We have a maximum 24 hour paddock to plate policy, local food only.

I myself use to consume mostly meat. I constantly felt lethargic and could not concentrate. I was diagnosed with testicular cancer about 2 years ago. My father passed away when I was 10 years old from leukemia. I made a conscious effort to change my life. I refused to take any of the medicine my doctor prescribed and changed my diet completely. I now eat mostly fruit, vegetables and small amounts of red meat, white meat and fish. I have lost weight and feel energised. I even exercise more now than I did as a teenager! Oh and I am completely cured.

I have to agree with you that it is about BALANCE purely and simply. I get worried when I hear people talk about abstaining from anything natural completely in your diet. I don't know if there has been any evidence of DNA shutting down by eating meat? what does DNA shutting down mean by the way?

A great documentary I saw just recently was about the Dr Gershon. The beautiful truth I think it is called.

[Constance]

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[Lord Sidious]

Yeah..Yeah!

All I need is another 'New Age' Guilt Trip!

Gutsy Post Constance Neal...

Well according to you, I therefore consider my DNA shutdown forever!


Hello there everyone,

For all of you who are attached to eating animal products for whatever reason, you are not going to like what I have to say. I don't expect to make any friends over this.

with Love and Light,
Constance

No Constance, you have 'Every Right' to express your views on Avalon.

However, I don't agree with you and will continue to eat meat, together with a healthy portion of fresh vegetables as I have always done!

What's on the menu tonight?

http://cdn.taste.com.au/images/recipes/sfi/2005/11/835.jpg

Steak & Vegetables...Yum-Yum! :pound:

You complain about people posting in your threads in a manner you don't like, then go and do it to others.
Great.

[Constance]

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[Constance]

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[Constance]

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[Chicodoodoo]

Eating ANY form of animal product will shut your DNA down.

What evidence is there for this claim?

We know relatively very little about our DNA. For most of our DNA, we don't know what it does. We also don't know if it's active or not (turned on or shut down), not to mention how, when, or why.

We do know that there are healthy people that eat animal products. There are also unhealthy people that eat animal products. The same goes for those that only eat vegetarian.

So far the discussion has not addressed any real evidence for the claim. Given our poor understanding of DNA, biochemistry, diet, and health, I doubt there is any evidence for the claim, but if there is, I would like to see it.

[Constance]

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[Constance]

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[jackovesk]

Yeah..Yeah!

All I need is another 'New Age' Guilt Trip!

Gutsy Post Constance Neal...

Well according to you, I therefore consider my DNA shutdown forever!


Hello there everyone,

For all of you who are attached to eating animal products for whatever reason, you are not going to like what I have to say. I don't expect to make any friends over this.

with Love and Light,
Constance

No Constance, you have 'Every Right' to express your views on Avalon.

However, I don't agree with you and will continue to eat meat, together with a healthy portion of fresh vegetables as I have always done!

What's on the menu tonight?

http://cdn.taste.com.au/images/recipes/sfi/2005/11/835.jpg

Steak & Vegetables...Yum-Yum! :pound:

You complain about people posting in your threads in a manner you don't like, then go and do it to others.
Great.

That was 'Not' my intention, it's was just another view that's all...

My apologies to You or Anyone else who found it offensive...

Sometimes we can get too defensive and lose our 'Sense of Humor' when we have a different view on such topics...

I thought we are all here together as 'One' whether Vegetarian or Non-Vegetarian...

Again Kudos to Constance for her post...

Regards,

Jack

[Constance]

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[Carmody]

As for shutting down DNA my experience is that in the context (I think) that she is speaking about, She's exactly right.

Read my contribution to the thread so far. One other person posted similar results/understandings. I lost the last of the bad vibration or bad energies when I went to a pure vegan diet. I found, like stopping the smoking of weed, etc, that it took a bit of time for the body and energies to clear themselves. Months -at a minimum.

In my case it took about 4-6 months before I 'peaked' and was capable of things that...well....as Ruger Hauer said at the end of the film 'BladeRunner': "I've seen things.... you wouldn't believe."

I was also consuming monatomic silver as I outlined in the 'monatomic silver' thread in the 'alternative medicine' area. Most people's minds would break apart under the level of influence and capacity I was living within -at the time. I went into what the alchemists and the Buddhists call 'the sleepless state' for 18 months straight. To live with a large component of and strong conscious connection to the higher self 'in body'--24/7.

One essential part of that whole ride..was.. being purely vegan for about a year.

Edit: as for 'feeling your whiskers grow'. Yes, it is true. Deep control over bodily functions, etc. I found I could still myself and feel every bit of the world turning, living, moving, breathing.

I could manipulate matter/space/time, to some degree I could look at a building or similar and see every nail, board, wire, all of it, in my minds eye..and when you can do that..then you arrive at the 'consensus reality' aspect of being able to manipulate what you can encompass.

To those that worry about such things, well, clarity of mind comes as part of such a package and you either go clear, mentally.. or you go insane. Not much choice. This means that ethics are not an issue, for the opening and the ethics come together as a package, as you can't have one without the other. Awareness is not lopsided. It is all.

The reason I stepped away from it.....is that I'm not done here yet. I can always go back to it, but I'm not here to do ....what I already know.

I'm merely explaining that you can't get there....eating animal flesh. In my direct experience.

[Hybrid5226]

I think the subject of not eating should be discussed more then eating meat or grains an veggies .

Its all relative to the change going on around us .

My grandfather ate all protein. Be it birds ,fish ,snakes , mules ,cattle ,horses ,dogs.

Then as times changed my mother introduced other choices that where available for convience.

The clarity an sense of purpose in my descisions when I have not eaten anything for 2 or more days makes me question if eating as often as is suggested is necessary .

With the vitamins, liquid nutritional powders available it becomes more of an option for me to just not eat .

Beside that I have been thinking lately of how to avoid shopping for grocery's with a geiger counter .

[Constance]

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[Constance]

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[Ineffable Hitchhiker]

Thank you for this interesting thread and your input Constance. (and all others who joined :) )

When I was pregnant, with both my children, I had an absolute aversion to meat. The sight, the smell and the taste of it.
(My husband had to cook it for himself, if he wanted it.)
I always wondered whether it was an intuitive feeling that I don´t really need it to nourish my children?
Was it an inner "knowing" that I was unaware of?
After reading the posts here, I believe this may be true, but I cannot know for sure.
I just know, for myself, that it definitely does lower my own vibration and makes me sluggish.

You have definitely given me "food for thought" and will have a look at those suggestions you posted in the first post.

[NancyV]

In my experience of being a total vegetarian for 7 years I thought it was an essential prerequisite to allow me to travel out of body on other dimensions, which I did many times per week. So it was a belief I adopted which was part of the meditation path I was following. I read many books for years regarding health, spiritual, ethical and compassionate reasons for not eating animal products. My son was raised as a total vegetarian and is still one to this day, which happens to be his 31st birthday. My husband and I brainwashed him so well that he gets physically ill at just the thought of eating meat or eggs. Our daughter married a "normal" person and finally began to eat animal products at about the age of 21.

As with so many things I've done to excess in my life I found out later that my views on vegetarianism as related to spirituality were limited, imbalanced and incomplete. Total vegetarianism is not at all essential to leaving my body, communicating with spirits, merging with the Source, etc. In fact it really doesn't matter at all what I eat, I am still able to leave my body and no being on any other plane or dimension up to the Source even thinks about or mentions whether or not another being has eaten meat. It has no importance whatsoever! Guilts, fears and judgments are more hindering to "ascension" and out of body travels than eating animal products, in my opinion and experience.

Of course I'm not exactly sure what each person means when they talk of "ascension", nor am I convinced that they are sure what they mean. If one means raising your vibrational frequency to the point where your body also travels with you when you leave this 3D world through death or for astral traveling on other dimensions, I can't see the reason for doing that. I have read many books on the subject and used to think "ascension" might be something valid. Maybe for some it is but not for me. I much prefer to leave this flesh vehicle here in the physical world. It is a wonderfully complex vehicle for the soul but I no longer see it as having a huge amount of importance and I have no desire to take it with me. My soul is quite intact when I travel out of body and it has never made sense to me that one needs to raise the vibration of the vehicle. Of course I understand the theory behind it but I simply do not agree with it.

I agree with Inelia that the ultimate goal in refining your diet would be breatharianism. Veganism is still a rather low step in the "diet as a spiritual tool" process. My husband and I got to the point of total fruitarianism with a goal of breatharianism, but after a few months of nothing but raw fruit our teeth began to loosen and we got so skinny it was really funny! It was also rather uncomfortable to have our senses so enhanced that it was difficult to be around other people and hear their thoughts and feel their emotions. It was almost painful to go into a grocery store and get near the meat section, but we didn't buy much in stores. We lived in Hawaii and fruit was abundant, the weather was perfect and we didn't have to work at a job. I imagine it would have been much more difficult in New York, for instance.

Now to the idea of the "cruelty" of predators. This doesn't make sense to me at all. I don't view natural animal instincts as cruel. The belief that killing for food is cruel seems to be a judgment that this physical reality was perhaps created incorrectly. I prefer to think that the Creator did not make any mistakes. If someone thinks they could do a better job... then create your own world where everything is the way you think it should be. This world I live in is just fine and I've always enjoyed it with all it's pain, suffering, love and beauty. In other words... it's duality. If I wanted Oneness all the time I wouldn't be here, I'd be merged with the Source. I chose to be here and I won't attempt to make it the same as being one with the Source.

Here on earth all life eats other life for sustenance, whether plant, animal or some other source of energy. It was designed that way and I don't know why, but it is what it is. We can be compassionate and empathetic and still eat meat. One has nothing to do with the other. Treating animals with cruelty is cruel but eating them is natural.

Personally I have little interest in any food nowadays except for coconut gelato!

Nancy :)

[modwiz]

What about canine teeth? Humans are born with canine teeth that are specifically designed for tearing meat. If we are not supposed to eat meat: why are we born with teeth to tear meat?

In humans the so called "canine teeth" are called bi-cuspids. Their function has no correlation the the interlocking bi-cuspids of carnivores. These teeth in carnivores allow a predator to approach the prey from the side, pierce the skin and "lock" onto the animal as the predator now can exert some drag on, and tire, the prey.

The argument for canine teeth in humans is an idea you were "given" to make you "see" the innocence and logic of meat eating.
So, the canine tooth argument is an ingrained idea. Like religion.

Our bi-cuspids are very handy for breaking the skins on certain fruits though.

It is of further note to observe that we do not crave our meat raw, like carnivores. Eating certain animals is inconceivable to many of us, especially our pets, because our meat eating is learned from our parents. If children were told where their first hamburger came from many would never even eat it. Horse meat is delicious.
Most parents are aware you cannot tell a child the source of meat meals until the taste is acquired and craving is set.

That said, people will do what they will and the dead can bury their own.

[NancyV]

This is an interesting article in Dr. Mercola's Newsletter today:

http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2011/04/11/how-moms-vegan-diet-unintentionally-killed-her-innocent-child.aspx

How Mom's Vegan Diet Unintentionally Killed Her Innocent Child

Vegans Sergine and Joel Le Moaligou fed their 11-month-old daughter Louise only mother's milk, and she died suffering from a vitamin deficiency. The two are currently on trial in northern France, charged with neglect.

The pair called the emergency services in March 2008 after becoming worried about their baby's listlessness. When the ambulance arrived, the baby was already dead.

According to Yahoo Health:

"An autopsy showed that Louise was suffering from a vitamin A and B12 deficiency which experts say increases a child's sensitivity to infection and can be due to an unbalanced diet ... The couple did not follow the doctor's advice to hospitalize the baby who was suffering from bronchitis and was losing weight when they went for the nine-month check-up."

Dr. Mercola's Comments:

Breast milk is a near perfect food that is hands-down the best nourishment you can give to your baby. But it does have one downfall: its nutritional value is influenced by the mother's diet, and in extreme cases this can result in important nutrients missing from the breast milk.

In the tragic case reported above, it appears 11-month-old Louise lost her life because her mom's vegan diet created vitamin deficiencies in the breast milk she was exclusively fed on. Sadly, there were warning signs that the milk was not providing proper nutrition months before her death, as the baby was sickly and losing weight, but they were ignored.

People following a strict vegan diet are often convinced that it is the healthiest way of eating possible, and this was most likely the case with Louise's parents. But this tragic case can serve as a powerful warning for those who choose to avoid all animal foods when breastfeeding.

Veganism Can be Deadly

Some may disagree with me, but it is my observation and belief that a strict vegan diet, one that includes no sources of animal protein whatsoever, can be dangerous -- even deadly.

I am certainly not advocating that everyone eat meat (especially factory-farmed meat), but it seems clear to me that virtually everyone benefits from some animal protein. In some cultures this may be very little such as the insects consumed in grains in India. In others, meat proteins may make up a considerable portion of diet or other animal proteins like raw organic dairy and eggs.

With veganism, many make this dietary choice based on ethical or spiritual convictions, and I have no disagreements with that.

However, there are very often health consequences for choosing to avoid all animal foods that can lead to missing critical nutrients needed to optimize your health. This was the case with popular actress Angelina Jolie, who was a vegan for a long time until, in her words, "it nearly killed me."

But for expectant and nursing mothers, babies, and children, a vegan diet may not be tolerated for nearly as long without consequences.

Vitamin B12 Deficiency is One Glaring Risk

Vitamin B12 is one of the eight B complex vitamins and is naturally present in foods that come from animals, including meat, fish, eggs, milk and milk products. If you eat a strict vegan diet, vitamin B12 is one of the nutrients your body is most likely deficient in, and even if you take a supplement, vegetarian supplements of B12 are notoriously ineffective in raising B12 levels.

According to a study on the Hallelujah Diet -- a strict vegan diet -- by researcher Michael Donaldson, Ph.D. of Cornell University:

"Our study revealed early signs of vitamin B12 deficiency in 26 of the 54 people tested, after following the Hallelujah Diet for as little as two to four years."

He noted not only that vegan food sources of vitamin B12 are sparse, but that deficiency is especially dangerous for pregnant and nursing moms and infants:

"Based on the published studies and our results, adequate vitamin B12 status of vegans cannot be taken for granted. Pregnant women, nursing mothers, infants, and small children are particularly vulnerable to B12 shortages. Ensuring adequate B12 is critical for normal neurological development and maintenance, with shortages resulting in permanent damage."

Even though vitamin B12 is water-soluble, it doesn't exit your body quickly like other water-soluble vitamins. B12 is stored in your liver, kidneys and other body tissues, and as a result, a deficiency may not show itself for a number of years.

This time lag is a serious concern, because after about seven years of B12 deficiency, irreversible brain damage and other problems can result. In infants and children, however, extensive B12 reserves have not yet been established, so deficiency signs and symptoms tend to become apparent more rapidly.

As children grow, they will also be impacted by a host of other nutrients missing from a strict vegan diet, including saturated fats, animal-based omega-3 fats and vitamin A, just to name a few.

[modwiz]

Thanks for your response Constance.

And yes this could spin of onto a long and complex thread.

I will just say that people with non- neurotypical brains aren't broken, we just think differently
and thrive in certain conditions that the mainstream doesn't generally provide for.
Think in terms of us being hunters in a farmers world ,think evolutionary not illness here.

I was born with this, and my mother is Austic so its not something that can be fixed,
just like a person born with half an arm can't be fixed. But there are lots of work arounds, which i use .
If i limit my dealings with mainstream and work mainly in the higher realms , i do ok.

The biggest hurdles we often face is trying to explain to people without these types of brains, how things are for us.
It gets frustrating and distressing so i don't generally bother getting into this.
So i will won't elaborate any more, as it will just derail the thread further.

( but we can chat in pm more if u like)

Blessings,

Astrid

Both my son and I are Aspie. He is more pronounced than me owing to some autism from his mother. I have come to appreciate my difference and see it as a positive thing and I include my son. The only downside is living in a world with so many so-called normal people(trolls).lol

I see our way, ( my son and me ) as a natural reaction to a cruel, uncaring, dog-eat-dog competitive world that is largely a conditioned disposition put into place by the parasites that run our world. Interestingly, meat eating feeds this aggressiveness while it nurtures and propagates the killer instinct. This behavior might help one "fit in" with the rest of the world more comfortably but I am more discerning of the company I keep and retreat into the safety and sanity of my autistic world makes perfect sense to me. I venture out for as long as I can tolerate to make the world a better place before having to return to the spirit filled sanctity of my sweet created personal world.

I believe that autism that is not exo-chemically produced is the result of many higher vibration beings that are shocked into an almost catotonic state, in severe cases, by the ugly and exploitive way of living they are exposed to from first breath, in many cases.

Anyway,:focus:

[modwiz]

This thread is going to go on for a while Constance hehe,i bow to your courage tho,cause your gonna take a lot of unnecessary heat for making this thread,but so far you seem to be handling things just fine,keep it up my dear !

I consider Constance a friend because we communicate beyond the forum for a richer knowledge of each other and because we "get" each other. So when I saw her start this thread I knew she would have both the grace and tenacity to stay here and respond and see it through.

There are a few other people here who mind their threads well also and I wish to acknowledge that and them, nameless they will be now lest I forget one.

This thread will not only be informative of the subject material it will also speak volumes as to the character of this special woman and how fortunate Avalon is to have her.

Five pages in one day shows the interest in this discussion.

[phillipbbg]

Recently I broke away from the built in animal protein brain washing that has been powerfully bombarding me since child hood. I decided after reading a book called "The China Study" that I would exclude all animal based protein from my diet..... I was fearful that I would be hungry all the time, not satisfied, low energy etc....

Well all the animal protein propaganda for me turned out to be crap, my energy levels increased, as I had decided to not get hungry (meaning eat whenever you want ) hunger was not an issue, I was fully satisfied and much healthier to boot.

The most amazing thing was what I discovered we are being given to eat in packaged foods.... I discovered that some companied have dropped potato starch as a bulking agent and replaced it with SUGAR because it is cheaper... no wonder diabetes is on the increase. The other thing is dairy produce has crept into so many foods....

I am not endorsing the book for any gain but it opens your eyes on how the so called experts have suppressed the actual truth about animal protein in our diets.
For anyone interested here is some further info about the China Study http://www.thechinastudy.com/PDFs/ChinaStudy_Excerpt.pdf

As far as working on the more subtle sides of our beings it is a no brainer that animal based foods have to have a detrimental affect IMO

[Constance]

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[Wiremu2011]

I wonder what the indigenous cultures would have to say of this thread? And what of the Eskimo's - how would they survive as a collective in their enviroment if they didn't eat seals and, whales etc? I only recently watched a fascinating documentary on this group and saw that they needed these animals to survive in that place or they'd be extinct. What would you suggest they used as an alternative food source in those freezing elements?

[Calz]

I wonder what the indigenous cultures would have to say of this thread? And what of the Eskimo's - how would they survive as a collective in their enviroment if they didn't eat seals and, whales etc? I only recently watched a fascinating documentary on this group and saw that they needed these animals to survive in that place or they'd be extinct. What would you suggest they used as an alternative food source in those freezing elements?

Good point(s) not only from a food availability standpoint but the skins used for clothing and shelter etc.

[Calz]

Recently I broke away from the built in animal protein brain washing that has been powerfully bombarding me since child hood. I decided after reading a book called "The China Study" that I would exclude all animal based protein from my diet..... I was fearful that I would be hungry all the time, not satisfied, low energy etc....

Well all the animal protein propaganda for me turned out to be crap, my energy levels increased, as I had decided to not get hungry (meaning eat whenever you want ) hunger was not an issue, I was fully satisfied and much healthier to boot.

The most amazing thing was what I discovered we are being given to eat in packaged foods.... I discovered that some companied have dropped potato starch as a bulking agent and replaced it with SUGAR because it is cheaper... no wonder diabetes is on the increase. The other thing is dairy produce has crept into so many foods....

I am not endorsing the book for any gain but it opens your eyes on how the so called experts have suppressed the actual truth about animal protein in our diets.
For anyone interested here is some further info about the China Study http://www.thechinastudy.com/PDFs/ChinaStudy_Excerpt.pdf

As far as working on the more subtle sides of our beings it is a no brainer that animal based foods have to have a detrimental affect IMO

Thank you for the pdf.

I saw that title on amazon as I was sifting through all the (glowing) reviews of the Robbins book Constance referred to.

[Constance]

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[W.C.]

In my understanding, there is no 'one size fits all' when it comes to dieting. Sure, one can boast of the benefits of this diet or that -- but a benefit to whom exactly, is the issue, as whether we like it or not, we're not all the same. This is why one diet may work wonders for your neighbour, but leave you outside of optimal health and wondering whether that really is their secret.

Let me repost two short and quick examples.

Angelina Jolie is remarked to have almost died from adhering to a vegan diet (easily google-able) - which can be attributed to hearsay I suppose, but who knows. In France, a vegan couple, Sergine and Joel Le Moaligou's 11 month year old daughter Louise did in fact die.


Breast milk is a near perfect food that is hands-down the best nourishment you can give to your baby. But it does have one downfall: Its nutritional value is influenced by the mother's diet, and in extreme cases this can result in important nutrients missing from the breast milk.

In the tragic case reported above, it appears 11-month-old Louise lost her life because her mom's vegan diet created vitamin deficiencies in the breast milk she was exclusively fed on. Sadly, there were warning signs that the milk was not providing proper nutrition months before her death, as the baby was sickly and losing weight, but they were ignored.

People following a strict vegan diet are often convinced that it is the healthiest way of eating possible, and this was most likely the case with Louise's parents. But this tragic case can serve as a powerful warning for those who choose to avoid all animal foods when breastfeeding.

I am not advocating or condemning any diet here, but presenting perhaps an alternate perception to the idea that this or that diet is best for all -- not that anyone is really saying that.

The best diet is what is best for you, personally. And this can only be found through research, trial and err. That is, after all, how diets are created.

What I admire greatly about vegans or vegetarians is their understanding of food in general. If only more meat eaters took the time to research food as vegans and vegetarians do, perhaps we wouldn't have these horrific animal factories, or this or that.

In any case, I'm glad many here have found optimal or better health through vegan, vegetarian and meat eating diets. It's also great to see the people have mentioned what has worked for them -- little things noted here and there may be the spark to awakening a whole new world to others. It only takes one candle to pierce the deepest darkness, and that very candle can set the world on fire.

[John Parslow]

Hello Constance

Many thanks for your courage in starting a thread which may well turn out to be a contentious issue amongst the Avalon community. You have provided an interesting slant on ‘to eat meat’ or ‘not to eat meat’ which in itself is a very difficult question especially for some indigenous peoples who do not have a choice - to some peoples of this world the only choice is to eat meat or die …

I have been a vegetarian for well over thirty years and my choice was one of conscience in that I saw no need to kill anything for my own survival when the world is full of fruit and vegetables. I would have to qualify this with an admission that I do eat fish and eggs - so that would probably make me an egg consuming ‘Fishtarian’ if there is such a thing …

I read with interest your quote:

Eating ANY form of animal product will shut down your DNA.

I am not entirely sure that I agree with this account - is there any proof of this available - I want you to know that I am not making a case for being a carnivore just interested to learn the mechanics of this statement.

I would be very interested to know if in your opinion my DNA has improved over the last thirty years or so or has my egg and fish consumption held back my path to ascension?

Love and peace to you and once again thank you for this interesting post. JP :cool:

P.S. Apologies - I have not had time to read all the responses

[Constance]

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[phillipbbg]

I wonder what the indigenous cultures would have to say of this thread? And what of the Eskimo's - how would they survive as a collective in their enviroment if they didn't eat seals and, whales etc? I only recently watched a fascinating documentary on this group and saw that they needed these animals to survive in that place or they'd be extinct. What would you suggest they used as an alternative food source in those freezing elements?

You have to eat from your existing environment in a sustainable way, Eskimo's eat what they have available and there existence has adjusted to except the nutrients of that environment. However what is not always reported is how there health and culture are affected by the introduction of our modern city foods.
Its all about balance IMO

[astrid]

Personally i don't think its that simple, to view diet in terms as a one size fits all thing.

I'm more inclined to lean towards the theory that we are all composed of a vast genetic cocktail.

And those lineages all had different diets depending on their environments.

I did follow the blood type diet theories for a while, and i found it interesting that i had naturally
figured out that the foods i was eating and felt better on, where those listed for my type.
Interestingly enough all the foods in my group where of the stimulating variety.
Some people do very badly on coffee for example, but when i cut it out all together i literally don't function...

More on that line of thinking here, for those that are interested.

http://www.dadamo.com/

http://www.dadamo.com/video_intro.htm

I lean towards finding the right balance for my particular bio-chemistry,
rather than being extreme in anything, or following a diet "dogma".

Just MHO, but having trailed and errored so many different things, including

not eating meat, i settled on what works.

Bottom line for me was listen to my body.

I also use muscle testing to find out what my body needs.

- that was another way i found that i had to eat some meat.

And, really our bodies have all the answers that we need,

its just a matter of tapping into the amazing field that we all have access too.

And when u add intention to that mix, we are also able to change the structure of what we eat to better suit us.

You just have to look the experiments with the structuring of water.


Blessings,

A

[The Truth Is In There]

"Eating ANY form of animal product will shut down your DNA."

i don't agree with this. your vibration may not rise as quickly as with a purely vegan diet but it all depends on the type of animal product and the amount.

i agree that meat should be avoided at all costs, for many different reasons. however, i don't believe you stop your "ascension process" if you want to call it that, for example by eating a little butter every now and then.

from my experience i can tell that stopping meat consumption has a massive and immediate effect, psychological as well as psychical, and also on your health and well-being. you may very well lose all your fears, worries and whatever else has plagued you. bad mood will also be a thing of the past.

the problem with a total vegan diet is that it is very easy to make mistakes that can be detrimental to one's health. vitamin deficiencies and so on. i don't agree with those who say that veganism is unhealthy, but you have to know what you do if you want to eat vegan and remain healthy forever.

something that seems to occur for most (if not all) vegans is that the liver reduces bile production (because less bile is needed for digestion, obviously), with the result that vegans are not capable of digesting meat or large amounts of animal proteins anymore and get sick. it's not just that the body immediately starts to detoxify and so you get sick, it's also because of the missing bile proteins and fat remain undigested and make you sick. so what's very important to stay healthy is a 100% clean liver.

another problem can occur if you eat everything raw - you lower your agni (digestive fire) and might eventually all but kill it so you can't digest most things anymore, only fruits and certain veggies. (reduced bile production is one part of this)

so i think it's possible to become a healthy vegan and stay healthy but you need to know a lot of things in order to avoid mistakes (or you learn by making some of those mistakes, as i did, haha)

for me it would be no problem to go totally vegan again if i knew a tasty substitute for raw milk butter since that's the only animal product i consume in small quantities. however, i'd definitely not go 100% raw again. that only makes sense if you want to stop eating altogether and only drink fresh juices for the rest of your live. that, of course, would be the ideal (besides breatharianism)

[DevilPigeon]

-----

I've mostly been a meat eater all my life, but had a 3 year vegetarian period several years ago. Only recently have I changed my diet again, not explicitly vegetarian but largely meat-free simply by my current choices. My daily diet consists largely of pulses (chickpeas/beans/peas/sweetcorn etc) & oil (cold pressed virgin olive/Udo's Choice), with a large helping of olives thrown in too (I LOVE olives!). Sometimes I also eat tuna & oily fish (mackerel/sardines/herring). Breakfast is an oat-based supermarket mix with milk.

I have to admit to feeling more alert & less tired recently, with a sense of feeling lighter too (despite my weight LOL). My cholesterol level is also well below average (3.09 total, ratio of 2.7).

I find it easy maintaining this diet, but would find it difficult to cut out fish altogether, as well as milk. I don't even consider soya substitutes for many reasons (I don't like the taste, so it falls at the first hurdle! Never mind the other negative health issues surrounding soya). If I had a question, it would be what suggestions could anyone give for me to improve upon my current situation?

As a side point, I understand the suffering issue with animals and exploiting them for food... But doesn't that extend to plants too, from a 'total consciousness' point of view? I'm thinking for example, cutting fruit from trees etc.... This last point isn't a frivolous throwaway comment, I'm genuinely interested.

[grapevine]

[Quote: BTW....I make magnificant vegan pizzas. Unquote]

A recipe would be nice Constance, although this would probably be OFF TOPIC. Would you send me the recipe for your magnificent vegan pizza on a pm please? :) :)

Your words fill me with shame so I'm going meatless once again (so you have saved at least one life already Constance). I took a walk along a country lane into the grounds of a farmer last Spring. It was a range free farm and all the young cows put their heads over the barn door and looked at me with great interest. I could see their intelligence and I felt sad at their fate. I didn't eat meat again until the Autumn, but unfortunately I did go back to it, I think out of pure laziness. I have been on and off meat for most of my life, the greatest stretch being between the ages of 16 and 23 and then for maybe a year or a few months. To be honest I have not felt any different spiritually whether I eat meat or not. What are the signs?

I salute you Constance.

xxx

[Jendayi]

Thank you for starting this thread! it takes guts to take on the avalon community ;-)
i would like to share some observations though...
Myself, i have been a vegetarian in the past for about 2 years... and allthough i felt good to an extent, at a certain point i became complacent... i would no longer protest to things that were harmfull to me.. i would no longer resist... i was living with a group of people at this time.. all very powerful souls.. with beautiful idea's and amazing energies... we had momentum, a drive to change the world.. however... nothing really happened... this lead me to some conclusions and observations...

let's take this to a global scale, shall we?

- We have fluoridated water and other products that make us docile and easily controlled. (in the russian gulag fluoride was admittedly used to keep the inmates in line)
- we have aspartame... nuff said..
- the soy market is bigger than ever and is generating billions of dollars in revenue.. to who this money goes? more than 60% btw, is gen. modified.
- "Bio" "Eco" And "vegetarianism" is promoted a lot these days
- the new age movement telling us that all goes according to (divine) plan..
- the mayan calendar movement (90% white people, bit weird) telling us it will all be over, either december 2012 or october 2011.

Why do i share all this? well.. if you were an elite group that wished to implement total control over a planetary population you would need to do a couple of things...

1. create a division or two amongst the people you wish to dominate...
2. give them hope and joy in the form of a wondrous and amazing story/prophecy.. a carrot on a string, so to speak...
4. tie in this story with some ancient civilization that enchants us, i.e. the mayans, egyptians etc.. which can never be verified by the layman..
5. contaminate the water with controlling substances, as everyone drinks water...
6. hire some bronzed men and blond women with a spiritual "radiance" to promote love and light while the truth is taken away bit by bit..
7. and here it is: create a meat industry to contaminate and distort our diet.. first they have us eat meat that is in fact a shadow of what it is supposed to be.. it is processed, stressed, contaminated and distorted... we keep eating it because eating meat has been a part of our diet for ages... since the nutritional and energetic value of meat has been reduced to almost zero we have to eat huge amounts of it (very clever scheme) opposed to the olden days where we ate much, much less meat from animals that had good lives....
8. ok, the meat industry has been established worldwide... now, vegetarianism is promoted... (ask yourself... why is vegetarianism being so promoted in glossy magazines and by movie stars?) people are being exposed to horrific images of the bio-industry.. we are sent on a guilt trip.. and rightfully so i might add.. bio-industry is not the way to go.... but what do they do? they setup a soy industry as an alternative.. wreaking havoc with ecosystems worldwide... did you know 100 grams of processed soy has the same effect on women as 1 anti-conception pill?

i could go on but i believe an awake and astute avalonian can connect the dots...

Dear friends..
i do not wish to divide.. we are all unique..
some of us eat meat, others don't... i have personally met vegans who were quite nasty and abusive.. and i have met meat-eaters who were the some of the nicest people i have ever known..
and vice versa.. the universe is full of the most diverse forms of life... i respect this diversity to the highest degree.. we each have different paths, but our final destination is the same for all of us.....

another thought.... monsanto and other companies have been tampering with plant genetics for decades... their spores and seeds have been carried by the wind for years now... contaminating everything... the chemtrails that rain down on our crops.. the nuclear fall-out of many known and unkown bomb tests.. chernobyl and now japan... not to mention all the electro-smog and other forms of radiation...
our world is 100% contaminated by many different foreign substances.. yet we are still here.... we are still waking up and we are becoming stronger everyday...

i do not claim any authority on the fore mentioned.. however i do wish to share some perspectives..
what if... meat has been reduced to crap by TPTW to take away our "fire"?
what if... vegetarianism is promoted to turn us into "treehugging" peace wishers who will no longer stand up and fight for what's right.. and i mean really fight...
what if... the new age movement and 2012 is a carrot (lord sidious?) and that the "all is going as it should" conditioning is to keep us at bay and complacent?
what if... we are told to "go inside" so we get detached from what is going on outside?
what if... we are all ready ascended... but that we are still operating under 3d parameters?
again.. i could go on...

my point is.. that it does not matter.. all ways of being have a right to exist... trying to convince another of your way is actually slowing you down... i am not saying you should stop sharing... quite the contrary.. i enjoy your writings.. (all of you)
aargh.... uhm.. how do i say this?
got it.. here's an example... from my own experience..
i have been on a "spiritual" path for a long time now.. during my life i have met people who were blown away by my presence and energy.. to my own dismay, i have seen people stand in awe when interacting with me.. i have no idea why.. but some say it has to do with who i am beyond this life.. could be.. even avalonians who i highly respect and care for have humbled me with how they say they see me... i am apparently a very pleasant and uplifting person to be around.. believe me.. this puzzles me often.. as i do many things not considered to be spiritual by many
people come to me, asking me for advice, asking me for healing... i am no certified healer, no teacher, no guru or shaman.. just a guy who has accepted all he is.. flaws included..
i smoke, eat meat once in a while, hardly eat fruit, sometimes vegetables, (i don't eat a lot though) enjoy a psy-mushroom or ayahuasca now and then, i smoke santa-maria (marihuana) regularly, i have lived on the edge in many ways.. i do not work out, i don't do yoga or other body related work, yet, at age 34, i can touch my knees with my nose, bend over backwards, lay my legs in my neck and so on... my body has an enormous regenerative capacity and i heal quicker than most people i know, both physical and emotional.. i do stretch and dance a lot and live an active life with passive periods, i enjoy cookies of any kind, drink my coffee and tea with sugar and lots of it, don't drink milk... and yet again.. i could go on...

we are a diverse group here on earth.. we come from all over the universe.. we all have an optimum diet for the body we currently inhabit, no diet is exactly the same.. bloodtypes are also an important factor in determining the right nutrition for you... myself, i have memories of a "past" life as a feline-humanoid, maybe that's why i love cats and eat meat.. especially the kind my cat seems to like too.. some humans might originate from a herbivorian blue-print.. i apparently do not... the moment we transcend this world we wil no longer need any sustenance, both meat or fruit/vegetables... we come from different places but all arrive at the same point..

this is turning out to be a much bigger post than i planned but that's ok..
i am not promoting any lifestyle here.. just sharing my own.. and that IMHO it does not matter what you do, eat, drink, think or expose yourselves to.. what matters is how you do it
consciousness stands at the base of any physical experience.. since we are both the creator and the created we can use and apply any thing, thought, form or energy that exists in this creation to experience ourselves.. we can even identify useful traits in other lifeforms and copy them into our own being, energetically through the power of intent..

all ways of being have a right to exist.. they are illusions anyway so why make such a fuss out of it? we all wake up in different stages in our lives, we are triggered by very different catalysts, we all enter paradise in our own time and through our own door...
so..
if you are a vegan.. Great! keep going that path..
do you eat meat? also Great! i just beg you to stop supporting the bio industry and get an honest piece of meat if you haven't allready.. better yet.. kill an animal yourself and then eat it.. see how that affects you... same with fish.. realize there are higher concentrations of toxins in fish nowadays so when you do eat fish.. bless your food even more and intend to transmute the foreign substances... the higher your fire, the more you can fully burn... what kind of internal oven do you have?
Are you a breatharian? WOW! i hope to join you soon.. i am on my way...
Sungazer? excellent! i do that myself and it reduces my need for solid foods every time!
don't need anything? WHO are you???? are you even human?
ok.. signing of now.. thank you for giving me a platform to share all this... it was brewing for weeks...
dinner is served!
Namaste...

[siggy]

I've wrestled with this one myself a few times, having been veggie for 2 periods of 4 or 5 years and then going back to eating meat again.
When I was veggie I never thought I'd ever eat meat or fish again! although I did eat eggs & dairy.

My reasons for being veggie was that I didn't think something should die to sustain me.
Then I started thinking about how far to take this, having heard about fruitarians, who only eat that which plants purposefully give up to be consumed.
So they believe that even plants don't want to die / be eaten - the proof being the ways in which plants try to stop themselves being eaten, eg. thorns, poisons, hairs, etc.
So following this logic was it alright to eat meat if the death occurred as the result of an accident, ie. roadkill?!?

Another thing which troubled me was the fact that (some) buddhist monks won't work in the fields in case they killed a worm or insect and so rely on donated food.
But then I thought, aren't they offsetting this 'bad' karma onto the farmers!?!? This didn't seem right to me, asking others to do what you're not prepared to do yourself!

So (for the moment) I now try to show respect for the things I eat & select accordingly.
I try not to eat intensively reared or processed foods - but being human I sometimes fail.
My path may lead me in new directions in the future.....

Siggy

[witchy1]

My turn. These are my random thoughts. Good thread Constance I have nothing against Vegans so long as they go the whole way and also refuse to buy or wear leather shoes, belts, handbags, coats or buy or sit in leather chairs and lounge suites or purchase leather bound books. They also should avoid buying cosmetics and products that have lecithin in them. I have found many people predominately women who claim vegan and yet rush to purchase a new feather duvet and who still eat ice cream, chocolate, cheeses yoghurt or drink baileys and have cake, use shampoo and eat sugar (see below) and take supplements like fish oil. It is my belief that they say they are vegitarian purely for weight purposes. It is (I think) a fact that vegans weigh less. (a bit of a no brainer really)

I am an unashamed meat eater. I can go days without eating meat, but then have to tuck into a nice piece of steak and I do love a juicy roast pork and crackling. Does this desire for protein come from bugs - I dont think so. It comes from my body saying it wants protein - its no different that when I want asparagus, mushrooms or beetroot, figs etc. Just my body saying what it needs to function at best.

The Gorillia is not entirely herbivore - they eat insects. Not a lot, but they do. As an aside they also have an inate fear of reptiles and caterpillars - even if born in captivitiy and never seen them. They also do not like water and rain. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mountain_gorilla#cite_note-FosseyHarcourt-12

Chimpanzees will attack kill and eat small animals http://www.ivu.org/history/early/ancestors.html

Are there bugs in meat - yes - that is why it is cooked. It can make you sick if you dont cook it correctly.

What are the options for vegans then. Genetically modified soy products. (no thanks) and B12 injections (who would ever trust a pharma injection). Perhaps Dentist bills with your teeth falling out but saving on femine hygiene products

I have looked at some researh papers and no studies to date state that vegan diets are any better or worse than non vegan. there are a few "maybe's", but nothing definitive and there are a lot of studies done. So it comes down to purely preference. No one is right and no one is wrong. Perhaps a case of whatever floats your boat :-)

"Although the vegetarians believed that they as a group were healthier than nonvegetarians, the lack of differences in self-ratings of health and incidence of health problems suggest that that perception may not be true."http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3722657

"Conclusion The levels of physical activity and body mass indices of the vegetarian and semi-vegetarian women suggest they are healthier than non-vegetarians. However, the greater reports of menstrual problems and the poorer mental health of these young women may be of clinical significance." http://journals.cambridge.org/action/displayAbstract?fromPage=online&aid=978676

Some unknown facts about animal products that vegans probably use

Plastic bags
Many plastics, including shopping bags, contain 'slip agents', which reduce the friction in the material. What are those made of? Animal fat.
Car and bike tires
Check with the manufacturer if they use animal-based stearic acid, which helps the rubber in tires hold shape under steady surface friction.
Glue in wood work and musical instruments
Animal glue (made from boiling animal connective tissue and bones) is apparently the best adhesive for fixing musical instruments made from wood such as violins and pianos.
Biofuels
Sugar cane and corn are what come to mind at first when we think about biofuels (http://planetgreen.discovery.com/tech-transport/biodiesel-facts-basics.html), but over the past years the use of animal fats to produce these has extended.
There's actually beef biodiesel (http://www.treehugger.com/files/2009/02/beef-fat-biodiesel-plant-calgary.php) (which Matthew called a "bone-headed idea" last year) and chicken biodiesel (http://www.treehugger.com/files/2008/01/but_is_it_vegan_chicken_fat_biodiesel.php) to choose from.
Fireworks
The same component used in the tire industry, stearic acid, is present in the production of fireworks. The book The Chemistry of Fireworks (http://books.google.com/books?id=-1G-HLDjuP0C&printsec=frontcover#v=onepage&q&f=false) lists this as an ingredient and an article in Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stearic_acid) explains that "in fireworks, stearic acid is often used to coat metal powders such as aluminum and iron. This prevents oxidation, allowing compositions to be stored for a longer period of time."
Fabric softener
Downy fabric softener contains dihydrogenated tallow dimethyl ammonium chloride, which comes from the cattle, sheep, and horse industry. They sure won't put that in the usual "all-so-soft" advertising.
Shampoo and conditioner
According to PETA (http://www.peta.org/living/beauty-and-personal-care/animal-ingredient-guide.aspx), there are more than 20 components from animals that could be in your shampoo and conditioner. The tricky part is when you read "panthenol," "amino acids," or "vitamin B" in a bottle (just to name a few), it can be either from animal or plant source -- making it hard to tell. Companies have even removed the word "animal" from some ingredients to avoid putting off consumers.
Toothpaste
Glycerin is found in animal and vegetable fats, which have a chemical composition containing from 7 percent to 13 percent glycerin. When separated from it, it's used in a wide variety of products, including toothpaste (http://www.care2.com/greenliving/homemade-toothpaste.html).
White and brown sugar (http://www.care2.com/greenliving/sugar-easy-greening.html)
Among vegetarians and vegans, it's known that purified ash from animal bones is used in filters to refine sugar by some brands, though there are other companies that use filters with granular carbon or ion exchange systems. What not all may know is that brown sugar is also refined, only to have molasses added after.
http://green.yahoo.com/blog/care2/169/nine-surprising-items-made-with-animal-ingredients.html

Website for hidden animal ingredients: http://www.cyberparent.com/eat/hiddenanimalsinfood.htm
Animal ingredient list: http://www.vegfamily.com/lists/animal-ingredients.htm

Did our ancestors eat meat? I doubt always, as they didnt have the tools, and fire was needed to cook the stuff (or they would get sick) I guess the cave paintngs give it away to a degree. Just how much they ate is another story I would suggest.

Analysis suggests (PDF (http://www.thepaleodiet.com/articles/2006_Oxford.pdf)) that prehistoric hunter-gatherer groups, allowing for regional variation, generally received around 50% of their nutrition from animal sources (both protein and fat from land game and fish). Modern hunter-gatherer societies obtain 56-65% of their nutritional intake from fish and hunted game. http://www.marksdailyapple.com/did-grok-really-eat-that-much-meat/

It does appear that there are as many arguing for as against this. The point is it is not worth arguing about because they simply dont know. The teeth argument appears to fall flat.

If the above case is true, where the vegan mother milk was insufficient for the baby I would suggest some form of meat (protein) eating was done for quite some time - perhpas like the aborigines and witchity grubs or the chimps and termites, maybe fish and birds only. Just enough to get the protein to perpetuate the species.

Thoughts over and out.

ADDIT: My DNA is just fine - I have no junk DNA

One more thing: I couldnt kill an animal for food. The fact that it comes all pre packed suits me fine. I clearly have strong dissassociative skills. I watched Dad do it once and threw up when I was a kid. I have also had the displeasure of having to go into sheep, beef, and chicken abbatoirs and watch staff/ergonomics as part of my job. Stories abound that would make you very ill. Its a wonder I'm not vegan really when you think about it.

[Snowbird]

I have been a vegetarian/borderline vegan for about two decades. I too, have a love for that cheese on pizza, but that is the only animal/fish/seafood product that I now consume. The very thought of putting dead animal flesh into my mouth, is enough to gag me. It makes no difference to me how well an animal is treated. To me eating any type of meat would be no different than killing and skinning and cooking up my fur-baby cat.

Animals are treated horrendously in general. If people really stopped to consider how animals suffer because of their appetites, there would be few to no animal farms. They simply would fold because no one would be buying their products.

[Arrowwind]

[Dr. Atkins died of a heart attack. What is the biggest killer of people who eat animal products? Heart attacks. There are those who defend him and say that he died of other causes, nothing to do with his animal product intake. Oh No...It couldn't possibly have been the meat!!!

:)

I will not try to convert you. What gets me going the the misinformation. If you go around spewing this stuff you should have your facts correct.

Dr Atkins did not die from a heart attack. He died from a fall at the age of 72. He did suffer one heart attack releated to a heart infection. Here is detail info on the events surrounding his death, at least as much as is available in light of privacy issues. Upon admission to the hopsita he weighted 195 pounds, fair weight for someone his size.

People will spread untruths to support their untruths.

Do your fact checking.

http://www.snopes.com/medical/doctor/atkins.asp (http://www.snopes.com/medical/doctor/atkins.asp)

http://articles.cnn.com/2003-04-17/health/obit.atkins_1_atkins-diet-atkins-center-diet-guru?_s=PM:HEALTH

http://www.usatoday.com/news/health/2004-02-10-atkins-health_x.htm

cardiomyopathy can have absolutely nothing to do with vascular disease related to diet. It was caused by a virus. Dr Atkins circulatory system was in good shape.

I will not go about doing more fact checking for you. You need to learn how to do it yourself as you have challenged everyone else on this thread that you have the right info but will not coddle anyone with the facts as they should look into such and such on their own.


There is enough research that has been provided out there that disputes what most scientists preach about junk DNA so if you doubt what I am saying, do the research yourself. I am not going to re-invent the wheel here.

On the other hand, if anyone would like to contribute data here on this thread regarding the true role of junk DNA that would be most welcome. :)


Not willing to reinvent the wheel but willing to smack people with it... or let others do the homework.



Since you say you have the right info and time will tell, and we shall see , you already have it all!
no fact checking required I guess.

but who needs that when they allude to the idea that they are the one who knows the true nature of consciousness.

[MargueriteBee]

I know a guy who eats a twelve ounce steak every night. He is an animal, a dumb brute and heartless.

[Agape]

Ehm. You know ..my doctor once told me that healthy human adult is able to survive few years together on sugar cube a day (tried in concentration camps ) .

Not easy to believe is it . But how much do we really need to eat , is a question.

It depends a lot on your inner attitude,
for example not losing control of your emotions is essential.
That's why something you feel easy to do
when you meditate or have otherwise relaxed life style
looks different when you are among activities
and have to respond to peoples emotions as well.

I mean, that's about how much do you need daily to survive .

Not about meat eating , that's turned from survival instinct
at times with scarce vegetation resources or none available (!)
and turned to over indulgence and getting high on proteins

Are you sursprised why your generation lost many psychic abilities ?

Wars ?

What do these animal proteins do to you , yes, they feed you
and your energy system descends to their level
to be able to digest them.

If you do it long enough you turn yourself to predator
and experience animal instincts on the level
where you could experience human ones


It's a journey of discovery

it'd not have to be so painful
if people ever followed good advice



:panda:

[Lord Sidious]

-----

I've mostly been a meat eater all my life, but had a 3 year vegetarian period several years ago. Only recently have I changed my diet again, not explicitly vegetarian but largely meat-free simply by my current choices. My daily diet consists largely of pulses (chickpeas/beans/peas/sweetcorn etc) & oil (cold pressed virgin olive/Udo's Choice), with a large helping of olives thrown in too (I LOVE olives!). Sometimes I also eat tuna & oily fish (mackerel/sardines/herring). Breakfast is an oat-based supermarket mix with milk.

I have to admit to feeling more alert & less tired recently, with a sense of feeling lighter too (despite my weight LOL). My cholesterol level is also well below average (3.09 total, ratio of 2.7).

I find it easy maintaining this diet, but would find it difficult to cut out fish altogether, as well as milk. I don't even consider soya substitutes for many reasons (I don't like the taste, so it falls at the first hurdle! Never mind the other negative health issues surrounding soya). If I had a question, it would be what suggestions could anyone give for me to improve upon my current situation?

As a side point, I understand the suffering issue with animals and exploiting them for food... But doesn't that extend to plants too, from a 'total consciousness' point of view? I'm thinking for example, cutting fruit from trees etc.... This last point isn't a frivolous throwaway comment, I'm genuinely interested.

I am with you on the olives.
I just discovered them about 6 months ago.
Pitted kalamata.
Mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.


I've wrestled with this one myself a few times, having been veggie for 2 periods of 4 or 5 years and then going back to eating meat again.
When I was veggie I never thought I'd ever eat meat or fish again! although I did eat eggs & dairy.

My reasons for being veggie was that I didn't think something should die to sustain me.
Then I started thinking about how far to take this, having heard about fruitarians, who only eat that which plants purposefully give up to be consumed.
So they believe that even plants don't want to die / be eaten - the proof being the ways in which plants try to stop themselves being eaten, eg. thorns, poisons, hairs, etc.
So following this logic was it alright to eat meat if the death occurred as the result of an accident, ie. roadkill?!?

Another thing which troubled me was the fact that (some) buddhist monks won't work in the fields in case they killed a worm or insect and so rely on donated food.
But then I thought, aren't they offsetting this 'bad' karma onto the farmers!?!? This didn't seem right to me, asking others to do what you're not prepared to do yourself!

So (for the moment) I now try to show respect for the things I eat & select accordingly.
I try not to eat intensively reared or processed foods - but being human I sometimes fail.
My path may lead me in new directions in the future.....

Siggy

The very fact that you struggle with the idea of what you can eat shows us all where you are at in your spiritual evolution.
Keep going the way you are going, you are on the track you are meant to be.

[RedeZra]

eating meat is just a habit

and as a habit it is tuff to turn

it takes an effort to reverse a habit


I think spirituality is not compatible with slaughterhouses

besides the fear and the passion in the animal is transferred to the eater


it's common sense to minimize meat eating if one wants to pursue a spiritual life

[Arrowwind]

I wonder what the indigenous cultures would have to say of this thread? And what of the Eskimo's - how would they survive as a collective in their enviroment if they didn't eat seals and, whales etc? I only recently watched a fascinating documentary on this group and saw that they needed these animals to survive in that place or they'd be extinct. What would you suggest they used as an alternative food source in those freezing elements?

Good question.

I shall sleep on it...

Goodnight all. Thanks for sharing...

Have you slept on it yet?
I am waiting to hear your answer...

and please tell us folks that live in Idaho and Montana, and Canada, Russia and Mongolia, and the Andes what we should eat
that is local, sustainable, and available year round while you are at it.... or maybe we should just move?

Or pehaps all those native peoples who have done hunting gathering lifestyles for thousands of years really have no right to exist because of their diet and their pertetual regeneration of a people who are incapable of ascension because they are pertetually screwing up their DNA?

Not only that Wiremu, cardiac disease is almost unknown to Eskimos... in spite of all that "nasty" DNA altering flesh they eat.
Their health issues started when white mans diet was put upon them.., coca cola and white bread, not to mention vaccines..and the moving into ciies with disassociation from traditional life style. Those who still do not partake in the white mans ways do very well.

[Inelia]

Thanks for sharing Inelia...

A couple more questions...

You said that there are some that have freewill, would you put yourself in that category?

Do you know what the true definition of enlightenment is Inelia?

Do you know what the true nature of consciousness is?

And to everyone else, My question of "Why do we eat" hasn't been answered by anyone just yet :) Go on, don't be shy...have a go! I won't eat you, I'm a vegan! :)

I just have to nick down to the shop to get myself some juicy fresh fruit and veggies but I will be back soon :)

1. I said we have free will in proportion to our state of wakefulness. In that sense, I have more than the sleeping person. However, it is important to note that in order to exist in the 3D, a being cannot be fully awake, and he/she does give up some free will in order to be here. Otherwise we would be omnipotent, something which is not part of this level of the game.

Your questions 2. and 3. assume there is only ONE answer to each. In which case I cannot answer them because, according to my reality, there are thousands of answers to them. And they are not mutually exclusive in their correctness. It is very much asking someone to describe the colour Blue. Each person will have a description, but no one can prove that their experience, what they see in their minds, as the colour blue, is exactly the same as another person on the planet. All we can do is agree that what we are looking at, we all call Blue.

You have obviously been to my website, so you know what my particular views on the above are, which then makes me wonder why you asked them.

Why do we eat? Because it is the most basic form of nurishment on the planet, and has been promoted as the only one in order to keep beings dependent. Now, if that answer doesn't agree with yours, it doesn't make yours wrong, it simply makes it different.




Okay. So if we are completely independent to the "big being"(are you talking about the creator here? I am assuming you are) Then what is it that keeps your heartbeating and your hair growing and your liver functioning? Your own divine Will?

No, not the creator as an external being. The "big being" is the sentient being who used your body to type these posts. In this view, we are absolutely not independent from the "big being" as the creator. Ultimately, yes, it is divine will that keeps us alive. Our will.

As a side note, your way of questioning, and answering is very conflicting, as in, it has the energy of conflict behind it. Using words such as "false", "true", "only way", are what the main religions, governments and elite use to divide and create conflict among the population. I completely honour the fact that you have found a information/wisdom that works for you and that you have decided to back and promote.

Can I ask you, are your questions to me, and your use of my article, not really in the spirit of dialogue, but of confrontation? Are your questions to me genuinely written to find out and perhaps consider as possible what I have to say, or simply to "prove me wrong" because what I say is, in your mind, is in conflict to what you believe and therefore would make you "wrong" if you agreed with it? If this is the case, then I desist. I can dialogue for hours, but for me to argue, is a waste of time as I do not consider your truth as "wrong" or in any way conflicting or mutually exclusive to "mine". You are, after all, another expression of ME.

[Peace of Mind]

I’m almost positive that humans (and other animals) were faced with a extinction in the past and had to adapt because much of the worlds vegetation has been lost to global catastrophes. I’m thinking this is how savagery and cannibalism started and continued to drop the planets vibrations. I also think some animals not only evolved into flesh eaters but some were even grafted (made in labs). In much of Egyptology and Greek Mythology there are pictures of creatures with the features of human and animals on the same body….some creatures look like 3 or more animals mixed in one. So I think there were Hugh changes in our planet, biology and thinking. We have become accustomed to killing the weak for the sole purpose of prospering the human race. I want no part of that movement. The irony of it all is most meat eaters are afraid (due to consuming death/fear) and they will defend their right to kill those they can…and beg for help from aliens or angels. Wow

Humans basically eat meat because the crooked FDA tells them to. I don’t believe (I know) all indigenous were not meat eaters. I think this perception came from the TV/Movies and what was told to them by His-story and governments. Most humans forgot that they are intelligent enough to find substitutes for every thing that’s in meat. This is what separates our intellect from most other species here. I’ve seen no real reason for meat consumption…just plenty of excuses, lazyniness in finding the alternatives, and a lack of respect for other animals and their rights to life. Live off the land; eat what the Earth has grown for you in many of its vegetation. There is a clear give and take relationship when it comes to plants and animals. Animals give plants/trees waste and carbon in return for oxygen/ food and natural medicine. Animals clearly show you they don’t want to be harm or eaten. Plants/trees give away their fruits, and seeds and re grows them. None of the vegetation I’ve consumed has ever resisted or evolved any defenses….even though they appeared to have been here longer than humans. Animals develop defenses through migrations, disease, and physical tactics. I’m not naive enough to ignore life and the differences in its behavior.

Peace

[Solphilos]

I know a guy who eats a twelve ounce steak every night. He is an animal, a dumb brute and heartless.

That speaks volumes about the rest of us with meat in our diets doesn't it. :hail:


The ignorance displayed by the vast majority of members in this community is ridiculous yet amusing to behold, considering that most hold themselves and this website in high regard as some sort of temple of truth, when in fact is is precisely the opposite. It is threads like this where the pompous masses make themselves heard so that all may hear why they are spiritually superior than everyone else because of their new age delusions.
If this place was in an accurate representative of human spiritual development, I'd be lighting a candle in mourning of our ill-fated species as most here are leaving behind wisdom and understanding in favor of shadows.

No worries though, we all have our roles to play and the antagonists are just as necessary as those who work for growth. There are those who are a part of a long lineage whom carry the torch of wisdom into the new era, and guess what............. most of us are omnivorous. :o

[Agape]

I know a guy who eats a twelve ounce steak every night. He is an animal, a dumb brute and heartless.

That speaks volumes about the rest of us with meat in our diets doesn't it. :hail:


The ignorance displayed by the vast majority of members in this community is ridiculous yet amusing to behold, considering that most hold themselves and this website in high regard as some sort of temple of truth, when in fact is is precisely the opposite. It is threads like this where the pompous masses make themselves heard so that all may hear why they are spiritually superior than everyone else because of their new age delusions.
If this place was in an accurate representative of human spiritual development, I'd be lighting a candle in mourning of our ill-fated species as most here are leaving behind wisdom and understanding in favor of shadows.

No worries though, we all have our roles to play and the antagonists are just as necessary as those who work for growth. There are those who are a part of a long lineage whom carry the torch of wisdom into the new era, and guess what............. most of us are omnivorous. :o



So true ...we have multitudes of excellent scientists, doctors and politicians who never mind what do they have on their plates
and how did it get there .

They'd not kill a fly would they
but they send armies to their wars

and make sure their food comes from the ecological farm
which turned to be the most expensive locality
on earth recently because all else is polluted.


They don't think about what they eat because no one has taught them the right thing

so if there's a debt from our faraway ancestors is it necessary to continue in their steps

or perhaps, something else is required from us ?





:pray:

[DevilPigeon]

I know a guy who eats a twelve ounce steak every night. He is an animal, a dumb brute and heartless.

I know a guy who plays golf. He's one of the nicest blokes I know, very down-to-earth.

[greybeard]

Im virtually vegetarian once or twice a year I meat.
Dont know why.
My mother said dont eat anything you are not prepared to kill.
Im not prepared to kill.
I bless thefood and thank the animal.
I always bless food.

A friend who is meat eater pointed out that if it wasn't for the beef burger etc millions of cow would never experience life on this planet.

As for affecting the body my thought is that fear causes adrenaline (not good for the body) and if the cow sensed death and was in fear that would affect the meat adversely.

One vegan I know is very highly strung with a temper to match ---
so Im neutral but as said I am not attracted to meat but rarely.

Chris

[Arrowwind]

I’ The irony of it all is most meat eaters are afraid (due to consuming death/fear) and they will defend their right to kill those they can…and beg for help from aliens or angels. Wow

Humans basically eat meat because the crooked FDA tells them to. I don’t believe (I know) all indigenous were not meat eaters. I think this perception came from the TV/Movies and what was told to them by His-story and governments. Peace

Hmmmm, was the FDA controlling all the native peoples of North America, Canada and China over the last 10,000 years. How about Africa?

What would you suggest that these hunterers/gathers eat in the dead of winter? And what would you suggest that they wear for clothing over a 10,000 year life span of their peoples?

Please provide for me links to information about indigenous peoples who do not eat meat that do not live in a year round warm climate before agriculture was developed?
Seriously.. you need to defend your statements. You say you know for sure. Please educate me. Then after you provide the links explain how these people might sustain themselves in lets say, upstate New York or Canada.
For that matter provide one link to current peoples living in a cohesive society that eat only plants that do not depend on shipping of food and refrigeration over long distances.... I would be very interested in reading these links.. I have looked myself but didnt find anything but maybe I am looking in the wrong place?

[Chicodoodoo]

The ignorance displayed by the vast majority of members in this community is ridiculous yet amusing to behold, considering that most hold themselves and this website in high regard as some sort of temple of truth, when in fact is is precisely the opposite. It is threads like this where the pompous masses make themselves heard so that all may hear why they are spiritually superior than everyone else because of their new age delusions.

I have to salute Solphilos, because this is the most accurate statement in this entire thread. How do I "know"? Because I myself am ignorant, and I can see myself and all of you in the mirror that Solphilos holds up for us to gaze into.

Yesterday, I stumbled across the "Silent Thread". How incredibly absurd, I thought. And yet, this thread seems to be its exact opposite, full of noise, and I can't help thinking -- how incredibly absurd.

Nevertheless, I also salute Constance and everyone else that has commented. We are all trying to find the truth, that much is crystal clear. Evidently, the truth is very elusive, because one person's truth is another person's absurdity.

[Arrowwind]

So true ...we have multitudes of excellent scientists, doctors and politicians who never mind what do they have on their plates
and how did it get there .

They'd not kill a fly would they
but they send armies to their wars


:pray:


Oh Please! there are many many people who eat meat that protest war,
work in science, medicine, and dedicate their lives to serving others and promoting peace.
Do we need to make a list?

I would start with Dr Helen Caldicot
http://www.helencaldicott.com/about.htm (http://www.helencaldicott.com/about.htm)

and Martin Luther King

if eating meat so deteroriated the spirit and dna how do we ever manage to have people like this?
after all these thousands of years of meat eating?
are they a genetic anomalie?

Im sure this list of people who understand and strive for peace would be many many millions long.
In fact there is a list of organizations from around the world that are commited to sustainability., nonviolence and all levels of peace.
the list is actually a million long. I suspect that only a tiny fraction of the people who participate in these organizations are vegetarian.
Actually this list was presented in a video I came across on this site the first time I saw it.
I wish I could find it again. It was presented to me again in a lecture I attended last week in Mexico. They had it running in the backround of the lecture on a screen.. it went on and on and on and on and on and on and on. a list of organizations with members, so not just the names of individual people who are dedicated to various aspects of the peace and sustainability movement.

Having eaten meat most of my life
I have actively worked for peace actively. My children eat meat
and they refuse to participate in the military industrial complex
on moral grounds

My mother ate meat and she abhored war.
My husband eats meat and he is the most gentle man one could ever meet,
who never raises a voice or a hand and turns away from aggression, always seeking
other means to resolution

I think such comments are really tiresome and they reflect badly
on those who make them, creating separation and alienation.
One could be acknowledging all those who work for peace instead
and seeing them as spiritual being endeavoring to evolve the world.
Dam few of them are vegetarians.

after all, Aldoph Hitler was a vegetarian..
it means nothing.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adolf_Hitler's_vegetarianism

[blake]

Hello Constance,

Although an interesting thread, I get the same feeling of frustration from reading many of your posts as I do with others who share some of the story, but not all of the story for whatever reason. It is almost like we are back to the “forbidden knowledge” game. I do wish if you have something to say, that you would just say it, instead of badgering Enelia.

"Why do we eat?" How many times have you asked that question in this post, Constance? And yet you don't answer it, but you seem to imply YOU HAVE THE ANSWER, the one and only correct answer, no less! Will you ever get to the punch line?

On this thread you seem to present yourself as the expert. Are you? For if you are , you have only shared your opinions, and not shared one concrete fact on this topic other than hearsay. This is an interesting discussion with interesting views, But it is almost like you are teasing the readers with your incomplete answers, and testing questions. It is almost like you have taken on the role of teacher instead of just sharing. Again, I ask, do you have the definitive answer here or are you just sharing your viewpoint? You seem to imply that you see the whole picture while other don't.

So what is your diet like? And why do you eat, Constance?

I eat mainly because I enjoy my physical senses. I do want to enjoy all that earth has to offer while I partake in this experiment,in a moral way of course! But my morals may be different than yours! I do love indulging myself in moist, home made lemon, yellow cake, with chocolate fudge frosting, and chocolate raspberry filling. And one thing I know for sure, whenever I have a slice, my spiritual work sure does improve…………….whoops better eat a slice now!

Sincerely,
Mr. Davis
4/11/11

[Inelia]

<snip>

I eat mainly because I enjoy my physical senses. I do want to enjoy all that earth has to offer while I partake in this experiment,in a moral way of course! But my morals may be different than yours! I do love indulging myself in moist, home made lemon, yellow cake, with chocolate fudge frosting, and chocolate raspberry filling. And one thing I know for sure, whenever I have a slice, my spiritual work sure does improve…………….whoops better eat a slice now!

Sincerely,
Mr. Davis
4/11/11

This is actually the only reason I have not embraced other types of nourishment fully. Can I have a slice too please?

[Arrowwind]

I eat mainly because I enjoy my physical senses. I do want to enjoy all that earth has to offer while I partake in this experiment,in a moral way of course! But my morals may be different than yours! I do love indulging myself in moist, home made lemon, yellow cake, with chocolate fudge frosting, and chocolate raspberry filling. And one thing I know for sure, whenever I have a slice, my spiritual work sure does improve…………….whoops better eat a slice now!

Sincerely,
Mr. Davis
4/11/11


Good to hear from you again, Mr Davis... and as usual, spot on... regarding all of your post, not just the fun part I quoted

[bilko]

Hi constance,
Firstly i would like to thank you for this thread, i think i agree with most of it.
What is your view on using animal products for clothing, ie shoes, and coats etc? i am talking cold weather items here not fashion items like fur coats although the inuit certainly owe their lives in part to fur coats. However, that is a slightly different issue i think. I am half way through reading ' Anastasia - the ringing cedars ' book 1 and she doesn't wear any clothes but it seems that nature warms her.
I wish i wasn't such a junkie when it comes to food. Worse still i know all about nutrition from a raw vegan diet ( as much as i need to ) from watching hundreds of 'The liferenerater ' videos on youtube by Dan the man, my main man.

[bearcow]

I know a guy who eats a twelve ounce steak every night. He is an animal, a dumb brute and heartless.

I know a guy who plays golf. He's one of the nicest blokes I know, very down-to-earth.

Maybe playing golf will speed up your DNA!

No need to reply only kidding

Regarding should one eat/not eat meat, one of the high level masters i studied with in china is a vegetarian. It was somewhat necessary for him to do certain practices. However, he told most people who study with him to eat meat, and to make sure they eat enough, ie don't fast or do practices that require the body to be deprived of the nourishment it needs to sustain basic bodily functions. Nourish your body with the food it functions best on, refine the energy from the food into a higher state of matter by living your dharma.

[Mikez]

Isn't breast milk also an animal product, sorry, couldn't resist!

[Lord Sidious]

I know a guy who eats a twelve ounce steak every night. He is an animal, a dumb brute and heartless.

That speaks volumes about the rest of us with meat in our diets doesn't it. :hail:


The ignorance displayed by the vast majority of members in this community is ridiculous yet amusing to behold, considering that most hold themselves and this website in high regard as some sort of temple of truth, when in fact is is precisely the opposite. It is threads like this where the pompous masses make themselves heard so that all may hear why they are spiritually superior than everyone else because of their new age delusions.
If this place was in an accurate representative of human spiritual development, I'd be lighting a candle in mourning of our ill-fated species as most here are leaving behind wisdom and understanding in favor of shadows.

No worries though, we all have our roles to play and the antagonists are just as necessary as those who work for growth. There are those who are a part of a long lineage whom carry the torch of wisdom into the new era, and guess what............. most of us are omnivorous. :o

Talking about ego, your post is full of it.
I don't know if Constance and the others are correct or not, but I know you aren't.
Not much wisdom and understanding in your post.

There seems to be a lot of people feeling defensive posting in this thread.
Why do you feel like that?

[Peace of Mind]

Hmmmm, was the FDA controlling all the native peoples of North America, Canada and China over the last 10,000 years. How about Africa?

Hi, Arrowind,
Good questions. But, do you know or have facts of what happen in the last 10,000 years? I’m not talking about information coming from controlled learning institutes.

What would you suggest that these hunterers/gathers eat in the dead of winter? They eat what they harvested in the warmer months, and, what’s wrong with going naked? Every other creature on this planet is doing it. Besides, we can make clothes from plants like the one they call “Hemp”… Which happens to be banned in some parts of the globe? How anyone can have the power to ban a plant still baffles me.

Please provide for me links to information about indigenous peoples who do not eat meat that do not live in a year round warm climate before agriculture was developed? Most indigenous (today) are oppressed and find themselves living in scavenger conditions. They are not the same as the indigenous of the old. The teachings in Hindu and the ways of the ancient Hebrews shed light on this subject (I’m neither Hindu nor Hebrew, btw). And, judging how some religions express fasting and refusing to eat meat on certain days just further tells me that flesh eating is not a necessity for survival, it also shows me just how much change was made in many of the religious scriptures people follow today.

You are not always going to find a link for everything on the net. DARPA owns the net and will only allow certain sites/ information to exist on it. It’s mainly a tool to further dumb down the masses. But, many seem to think it's the other way around. Why? I don't know...

Seriously.. you need to defend your statements. You say you know for sure. Please educate me. Then after you provide the links explain how these people might sustain themselves in lets say, upstate New York or Canada.
They don’t have to live in those climates; they can easily migrate just like the birds do, but since they’ve become accustomed to flesh eating the need for travel is unimportant to them.

For that matter provide one link to current peoples living in a cohesive society that eat only plants that do not depend on shipping of food and refrigeration over long distances.... I would be very interested in reading these links... I have looked myself but didnt find anything but maybe I am looking in the wrong place?

The wrong places is an understatement. Current society has to have the will and courage to make the change back to their roots. Most of us were born into urban jungles and have no knowledge whatsoever on how to farm/garden. They barely even notice the few trees lining the concrete blocks they live on. People today are way too dependant on their governments, They are very much detach from nature and don’t even know it.

Peace

[Rocky_Shorz]

all bunk...

enlightenment has nothing to do with the foods you eat, or I'd be lighting candles... ;)

[Rocky_Shorz]

I'll give you a hint, what do sheep eat?

[Mikez]

Baboon: Diet

Largely vegetarian....

Baboons are opportunistic omnivores and selective feeders that carefully choose their food. Grass makes up a large part of their diet, along with berries, seeds, pods, blossoms, leaves, roots, bark and sap from a variety of plants. Baboons also eat insects and small quantities of meat, such as fish, shellfish, hares, birds, vervet monkeys and young, small antelopes.

http://fishslapsababy.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/baboon-jaws-300x237.jpg


Just because we have rudimentary fangs does not mean we HAVE to eat meat.

Millions of humans thrive on a vegetarian diet...its a fact.

The cruelty and non-violence issue nails it.

Just a thought.....

The prime motivation, survival, includes ability to defend oneself. Most animals with fangs fight with their teeth and it could be the fangs evolved for that reason alone. It might be unrelated to diet?

[Arrowwind]

[ refine the energy from the food into a higher state of matter by living your dharma.

This is exactly it. Your teacher is a very wise man...and many millions do this around the world, and more everyday as this planet procedes into awakening.

[noprophet]

A theosophical approach to eating meat by Annie Besant (1913):

Now, the first line of argument to which I am going to ask your attention regarding vegetarianism in the
light of Theosophy, is this: Theosophy regards man as part of a great line of evolution; it regards man's
place in the world as a link in a mighty chain, a chain which has its first link in manifestation in the divine
life itself, which comes down, link after link, through great hierarchies or classes of evolving spiritual
intelligences, which, coming downwards in this fashion from its divine origin through spiritual entities,
then involves itself in the manifestation that we know as our own world; that this world, which is but the
expression of the divine thought, is penetrated through and through with this divine life; that everything
that we call law is the expression of this divine nature; that all study of manifestation of law is the study of
this divine mind in nature; so that the world is to be looked on, not as essentially matter and force, as
from the standpoint of materialistic science, but essentially as life and consciousness involving itself for
purposes of manifestation in that which we recognise as matter and as force...

Full Article Here (http://www.theosophical.ca/adyar_pamphlets/AdyarPamphlet_No27.pdf)

[Agape]

So true ...we have multitudes of excellent scientists, doctors and politicians who never mind what do they have on their plates
and how did it get there .

They'd not kill a fly would they
but they send armies to their wars


:pray:


Oh Please! there are many many people who eat meat that protest war,
work in science, medicine, and dedicate their lives to serving others and promoting peace.
Do we need to make a list?

I would start with Dr Helen Caldicot
http://www.helencaldicott.com/about.htm (http://www.helencaldicott.com/about.htm)

and Martin Luther King

if eating meat so deteroriated the spirit and dna how do we ever manage to have people like this?
after all these thousands of years of meat eating?
are they a genetic anomalie?

Im sure this list of people who understand and strive for peace would be many many millions long.
In fact there is a list of organizations from around the world that are commited to sustainability., nonviolence and all levels of peace.
the list is actually a million long. I suspect that only a tiny fraction of the people who participate in these organizations are vegetarian.
Actually this list was presented in a video I came across on this site the first time I saw it.
I wish I could find it again. It was presented to me again in a lecture I attended last week in Mexico. They had it running in the backround of the lecture on a screen.. it went on and on and on and on and on and on and on. a list of organizations with members, so not just the names of individual people who are dedicated to various aspects of the peace and sustainability movement.

Having eaten meat most of my life
I have actively worked for peace actively. My children eat meat
and they refuse to participate in the military industrial complex
on moral grounds

My mother ate meat and she abhored war.
My husband eats meat and he is the most gentle man one could ever meet,
who never raises a voice or a hand and turns away from aggression, always seeking
other means to resolution

I think such comments are really tiresome and they reflect badly
on those who make them, creating separation and alienation.
One could be acknowledging all those who work for peace instead
and seeing them as spiritual being endeavoring to evolve the world.
Dam few of them are vegetarians.

after all, Aldoph Hitler was a vegetarian..
it means nothing.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adolf_Hitler's_vegetarianism




Please, kindly realize one thing again, that we don't want to be moving in the same circles, fight the same wars, till the end of our days..

I think, most of us don't ( 'most of us' is a matter of speech isn't it..)


Btw this is what Wiki quotes on Adolph :

In addition to being a teetotaler and a non-smoker,[1] Adolf Hitler is often said to have practiced some form of vegetarianism.[2] It has been theorized that Hitler's diet may have been based on Richard Wagner's historical theories[3] which connected the future of Germany with vegetarianism.[4] Hitler believed that a vegetarian diet could both alleviate personal health problems and bring about a spiritual regeneration.


They do not say he was a vegetarian. I think, most of us ...( well anyway ) ..would agree Adolph was crack. If someone has really serious issues of that sort,
vegetarianism itself ..can not change it. It's the willingness to accept non-violence that would change it.


If we're born among wolves, grow up with wolves, are taught their ways, sure, we may become anything from 'the right people' to great freedom fighters to saints.

Have you ever heard about wolves turning vegetarian ?


Personally, I didn't.


Humans seem to have a choice ..



:angel:

[NancyV]

Jendayi, absolutely excellent and well balanced post! Thanks so much for sharing your perspectives. I couldn't find anything to disagree with which is almost disappointing since I do so love a good disagreement! LOL



some of us eat meat, others don't... i have personally met vegans who were quite nasty and abusive.. and i have met meat-eaters who were the some of the nicest people i have ever known..
and vice versa.. the universe is full of the most diverse forms of life... i respect this diversity to the highest degree.. we each have different paths, but our final destination is the same for all of us.....
No kidding!! Even on other dimensions you can meet some really nasty disembodied spirits who try to eat your energy, AND beings of immense love and light who share energy. Both are equally valid and valuable expressions of the creation.


...i do wish to share some perspectives..
what if... meat has been reduced to crap by TPTW to take away our "fire"?
what if... vegetarianism is promoted to turn us into "treehugging" peace wishers who will no longer stand up and fight for what's right.. and i mean really fight...
what if... the new age movement and 2012 is a carrot (lord sidious?) and that the "all is going as it should" conditioning is to keep us at bay and complacent?
what if... we are told to "go inside" so we get detached from what is going on outside?
what if... we are all ready ascended... but that we are still operating under 3d parameters? again.. i could go on...

my point is.. that it does not matter.. all ways of being have a right to exist... trying to convince another of your way is actually slowing you down...
Vegetarianism tends to emasculate men, especially if soy is a large part of the diet. A bunch of Girlie-men (as Arnold calls them) would be a desirable scenario for TPTB. I can also personally attest that going inside and leaving the body detached me more from this world. In fact this is one of the main goals of many spiritual paths as it was in mine. I made a conscious choice to stop being detached from the world and to participate. After all, I'm here for a reason and it isn't to sit around in a lotus position chanting a mantra while Rome burns.

Sharing your way is different from trying to convince another of your way. One is not detached if they have a need to change others. But of course it is their choice to believe they have found "THE" way. I have found "THE WAY", the ONE and ONLY way so many times I have lost count. It feels so good to know that YOU know the ultimate truth!! At least it has provided me a lot of entertainment and I find myself to be quite amusing in my many follies.

"what if we are already ascended?"
SHHhhhhhh!!!! You don't want to let people know the ultimate secret before they're ready for it! LOL...


IMHO it does not matter what you do, eat, drink, think or expose yourselves to.. what matters is how you do it. consciousness stands at the base of any physical experience.. since we are both the creator and the created we can use and apply any thing, thought, form or energy that exists in this creation to experience ourselves.. we can even identify useful traits in other lifeforms and copy them into our own being, energetically through the power of intent..

all ways of being have a right to exist.. they are illusions anyway so why make such a fuss out of it? we all wake up in different stages in our lives, we are triggered by very different catalysts, we all enter paradise in our own time and through our own door...
I guess we humans love making a fuss and we're so good at it... and so convincing...and so FUNNY!

We do have the power to transmute or to transcend the influence of any poisons or parasites that enter our bodies. We don't often utilize these powers.. either because we haven't yet remembered how to do it or because we choose to live as a normal human being while on this earth...or any number of other reasons. We can also transcend any DNA manipulation or damage, but I do not find it credible that eating animal products "will shut down your dna".

Much of our world is poisoned right now but ultimately it's a very small part of the game... Since we are the Creator and the created we have created this scenario. It will be interesting to see different solutions and perspectives in the ongoing mock battle... and how it all plays out.

Nancy :)

[Arrowwind]

I'll give you a hint, what do sheep eat?
:clap2:

yes, and their DNA promotes herd mentality... therefor eating vegetarian promotes herd mentaltiy..

hey, just using the kind of logic and science of observation I am finding here....

[Jendayi]

I'll give you a hint, what do sheep eat?
:clap2:

yes, and their DNA promotes herd mentality... therefor eating vegetarian promotes herd mentaltiy..

hey, just using the kind of logic and science of observation I am finding here....



haha.. that made me chuckle... thank you...

[noprophet]

Vegetarianism tends to emasculate men, especially if soy is a large part of the diet. A bunch of Girlie-men (as Arnold calls them) would be a desirable scenario for TPTB.

I can't say i disagree on anything you said and am very much an advocate of the multi-path chaos in order theory. It's important to note some are heading down and up but in the end it's just circles.

However you're asking for trouble with this statement.

You know that though.

[Moonwish]

Hi Everyone;
This is my first post though I am a long time lurker / observer on Avalon Forum.
I find all sides of this question interesting and wonder if many of you have heard of the books The Paleo-Diet (Loren Cordain), The Paleo Solution (Robb Wolf), or The Primal Blueprint (Mark Sisson—also an interesting website at Mark’s Daily Apple.com) Primal diet protocols? (don’t know how to embed yet)

Essentially, their premise is that we evolved as omnivores and did not eat agricultural products until quite recently in our history. The metaphor used by one author (Wolf I think) says if human history is a 100 yard football field, agricultural products have only been used by humans for the last yard or so, hence, we are not biologically equipped to deal with grains, legumes, & dairy products.

Low protein / low carbs (i.e. meat, fish, low glycemic (sic?) vegetables) in their view are the “natural diet” of humans and eating a “modern diet” heavy in cultivated grains, legumes, breads, sugar, etc. lead to insulin resistance, intestinal damage, and ill health.

Also, saturated fats in their view are good for you and it is very important to achieve a balance of Omega 3 & 6 acids in meat consumed—commercial meat is fed grain, hence it is over biased to Omega 6.

I found the studies in Wolf’s book particularly compelling as many were from peer-reviewed journals and thus scientifically valid, at least so far as any such study can be free from bias and hidden agendas.

I decided to try it for myself, and have been eating meats, fish, fish oil, lots of salads and other vegetables for about eight weeks now. I have to admit, my results have been excellent.
I feel better, digest better, sleep better and have more energy for the day. Without portion control
or “dieting” (which I am very much opposed to) I have effortlessly dropped nearly 17 pounds and feel as though I’ve dropped 10 years of “sitting at my desk” aging.

I agree, however, with Constance and others that inhumane factory farming is not an ethical way to procure meat. The sources I’ve mentioned all strongly recommend only wild-caught and grass fed / finished humanely raised animals. Yet we are physical beings, sharing the planet with other physical beings including both plants and animals. As a passionate gardener, I must say that I know plants can both feel and respond to stimulus.

I don’t agree that plants are any different than animals in this respect. So we have a conundrum of consumption to continue to consider (sorry for alliteration—I’m a linguist)

At what level of sentience do we draw the line?

[Arrowwind]

Hi, Arrowind,
Good questions. But, do you know or have facts of what happen in the last 10,000 years? I’m not talking about information coming from controlled learning institutes.

I have learned directly from native american elders who have passed down their knowledge in an oral tradition, not controlled institues.

What would you suggest that these hunterers/gathers eat in the dead of winter?

agriculture was only minimally developed on Turtle Island when the white man evolved. Are you suggesting that a tribe in northern Vancouver should have been migrating to Mexico or Florida? Should people there only eat vegetables that have to be shipped in via trucks and refrigeration? Nuts that will not grow in a zone 4 climate? soy that is damaging to the hormonal system? Rice that does not grow in Canada? Perhaps we should just move all the people out of Canada and put them in Florida and California where they can have a sustainable diet.

For most of the world a vegetarian diet is not locally sustainable...


They eat what they harvested in the warmer months, and, what’s wrong with going naked? Every other creature on this planet is doing it. Besides, we can make clothes from plants like the one they call “Hemp”… Which happens to be banned in some parts of the globe? How anyone can have the power to ban a plant still baffles me.

\ We can make clothing from hemp if the law permitted but hemp was not a significant part of indigenous culture on Turtle Island.. Pretty dam hard going naked when its 5 below zero, Id say. This is true for much of North America and northern Europe and northern China and the mountain regions of south america. Id say that if you think people should go naked in such climates I say you go first. The sustainable solution is to use animal skins. Hemp could work. Cotton over utilizes water, and chemicals.


Most indigenous (today) are oppressed and find themselves living in scavenger conditions. They are not the same as the indigenous of the old. The teachings in Hindu and the ways of the ancient Hebrews shed light on this subject (I’m neither Hindu nor Hebrew, btw). And, judging how some religions express fasting and refusing to eat meat on certain days just further tells me that flesh eating is not a necessity for survival, it also shows me just how much change was made in many of the religious scriptures people follow today.

I am specifically refering to peoples of the Turtle Island. They are the same people of the old, under the influences of a non tradtional life style and diet. If the thesis is to be correct it must be correct for all peoples on every continent. the thesis is that eating meat damages the dna and can prevent ascension.
India is a continent that developed agrculture way before the peoples of Turtle Island. Flesh eating is not necessariy for survival if you have access to other foods of good protien quality. It requires agracultural cultures to do this. This was not availble to most of the world in the fourth world (as told by Hopi) until quite recently... Europe and the middle east and southern China being the leaders in agraculture.


You are not always going to find a link for everything on the net. DARPA owns the net and will only allow certain sites/ information to exist on it. It’s mainly a tool to further dumb down the masses. But, many seem to think it's the other way around. Why? I don't know...
there is much valuable information on the net. I whole heartedly disagree. Some of the most radical stuff anyone could think of is on the net, some true, some false.. many sites with alternative insightes to archeology, timelines, and the evolution of humanity. I dont save these links but have read on them.. again , I have sought much of my education from tradtional elders of Turtle Island who hold the ancient teachings. They see the white mans ways and their diet as the cause of great distress.. flour, too much carbs... not honoring mother earth... nor the spirit of the animals... tearing at the mothers flesh to create food that does not sustain the spirit and destroying her ecology in the process by creating all the factories necessary to make the whole thing go.

It is natural that agraculture developed in India, with its warm climate and being close, relatively to the mediteranian where its developement started.. mesopotamia (sp?) was it not? at least in this fourth world?




They don’t have to live in those climates; they can easily migrate just like the birds do, but since they’ve become accustomed to flesh eating the need for travel is unimportant to them.

the fact of the matter is that migrations ranged in a few hundred miles, not thousands in the old days.. To take a tribe and migrate 1000 miles to warm climate would be their demise. Yes, migrating to be vegetarian is unimportant to them. They were sustaining and thriving without. This whole thread insinuates that these people cannot advance their dna.. and infact have damaged their dna from eating meat. I absolutely protest this idea.


For that matter provide one link to current peoples living in a cohesive society that eat only plants that do not depend on shipping of food and refrigeration over long distances.... I would be very interested in reading these links... I have looked myself but didnt find anything but maybe I am looking in the wrong place?


The wrong places is an understatement. Current society has to have the will and courage to make the change back to their roots. Most of us were born into urban jungles and have no knowledge whatsoever on how to farm/garden. They barely even notice the few trees lining the concrete blocks they live on. People today are way too dependant on their governments, They are very much detach from nature and don’t even know it.

Back to their roots is a sustainable culture. back to their roots is hunting and gathering, Organic gardening where possible, for the vast majority within this the fourth world. I cannot speak for the 3rd world before this, that would likely take us back to Atlanian times. Halting shipping and refrigeration across the planet would be required would be back to roots.

I am talking about traditional peoples pre white man invasion, that ate vegetarian..where are records of these people? I can find only the most minimal information on such cultures, really, anywhere on the planet, except for maybe parts, and only parts of India. If vegetarian is requried for evolution then are we to say the indigenous peoples of Turtle Island and Australia cannot evolve? Are we saying that people of India are more evolved? Are we to base ones spiritual evolution on what they eat?
That their DNA is perpetually damaged? therefor an inferior race? and if inferior inferior to whom? those that eat flour and corn? and and rice? and who ship produce all over the world with great expense to the mother earth?

I will remind you that Aldoph Hitler was a vegetarian.

If you really want to talk about damaging DNA lets talk about excessive alcohol and drugs. People get addicted to the sugar of carbs, not the protiens in meat.

[blufire]

I could approach this topic from the standpoint of an organic vegetable farmer.

I could approach this topic from the standpoint of an organic and natural meat producer who also butchers and eats the animals I raise.

I could approach this topic from the standpoint of a practicing clinical medicinal herbalist

I could approach this topic from the standpoint of the research and free-lance articles I have written on plants being sentient life forms.

But . . . . .

I am choosing to approach this topic from the standpoint of having been, in the past, the wife of an evangelical preacher for sixteen years and a member of a very legalistic, dogmatic Christian church for twenty-five years.

I chose this standpoint because of your ( Constance Neil’s) dogmatic and legalistic belief that eating meat will shut down our DNA and that because of this, humans will not be able to ascend or become more spiritual or have a higher conscious. You have a very strong dogmatic and legalistic belief that all human should eat only a “pure” organic vegetarian and even more so vegan diet.

By this belief you are condemning several billion people.

Logically there are a very slight amount of people in the world that are able to have this type of diet (vegan/vegetarian). Many millions are lucky to have any food at all, let alone organic or fresh fruits and vegetables. Many millions or billions have no other alternative than to eat meat because of where they live logistically and climate and seasonal limitations.

Not to mention that if this information you have that only being a vegan is going to save our souls or DNA is correct . . . . how are the 6.9 billion people of the world to know this????? How are they to get this “enlightened” information??? How are they to save themselves or DNA??

So am I to believe that only a very minimal select few are by your definition are going to ascend to a higher consciousness or spiritual level or have a “better” “holier” DNA????

This type of narrow- minded legalistic dogma reminds me EXACTLY of when I was a part of organized religion.

In the church I was a part of (and my husband preached) and many other Christian evangelical churches it is hammered into our heads that we must “convert the world” to that churches religious beliefs and dogma. That if the people of the world don’t have that same belief they are going to hell and their souls are forever damned. And even more . . . .if the members of those churches don’t go out to evangelize and convert people to that belief . . . well they are going to hell to and minimally not be very good Christians or not have high spiritual position.

I always would run the same mantra over and over in my mind and soul. "This can’t be true because why would God condemn billions of people to hell just because one of us “more special enlightened Christians” just didn’t happen to make it to their part of their world and was unable to successfully convert them to this “belief”.

You know. . . .I really thought that when I left organized religion and began studying and researching “alternative” beliefs and truths that somehow I left all that hurtful dangerous dogma behind.

Then I remind myself . . . .we are ALL very fallible human beings . . . . no matter where we live, how we eat, what we believe and where our souls journeys are taking us.

Grace and Patience and most of all Love ......................

[John Parslow]

Hello NancyV


Vegetarianism tends to emasculate men, especially if soy is a large part of the diet. A bunch of Girlie-men (as Arnold calls them) would be a desirable scenario for TPTB.

As a long term vegetarian and a father of three, I really have to take issue with your statement above - do you have any evidence for this?

Best regards. JP :cool:

[shiva777]

simply ask yourself...am I stubbornly sticking to my meat diet because I like the taste and I don't want to change?.

...and if you feel you really NEED to eat meat,ask yourself,do I have enough compassion for animals, that are treated like commodities and slaughtered in the prime of their lives, to cut down on the amount of meat I eat and see how I feel?

This way you can determine for yourself wether or not you REALLY need to eat meat and how much you have been mind controlled and conditioned to believe you do need to eat meat...and how much your ego doesn't want to admit that you have been supporting the terrible treatment and torture of animals...

so all those people who are advocating meat eating,get real and cut down on the amount of meat you believe you need and wake up...your karma and your DNA will love you for it

many people react very strongly to this issue because they can't kid themselves about eating meat...it's LITERALLY in their faces

ascension is about frequency and DNA CAPACITY...it's physics not wishful thinking and new-agey promises

[Lord Sidious]

Hello NancyV


Vegetarianism tends to emasculate men, especially if soy is a large part of the diet. A bunch of Girlie-men (as Arnold calls them) would be a desirable scenario for TPTB.

As a long term vegetarian and a father of three, I really have to take issue with your statement above - do you have any evidence for this?

Best regards. JP :cool:

Get back in your corner John!
You're emasculated, remember?
How dare you come out here and talk!

By the way avalonuggets, the above post is sarcasm, don't go getting nugget on me.

[John Parslow]

Hello M'Lord

Ha ha - back safely in the corner eating a carrot ... :cool:

[Lord Sidious]

Hello M'Lord

Ha ha - back safely in the corner eating a carrot ... :cool:

Healthy vegetarian fare.
Good stuff.

[Siberia9]

There is a larger issue here for me, the biggest problem I see is that when people learn somthing new they run around thinking they know it ALL now. It is impossible to sugest anything new to them, even when you have already been down that road already. The new thing becomes their religion. I was raised vegetarian and it does not work for ME, if it works for you then thats great. But I have been on almost every other diet there is and have settled on the one I'm on now for the past 6 years, its not my religion and I will change it if i feel like it, nor will I defend it. It will do no good to tell some of you about it because you will just throw hammers at me because you will feel the need to defend your new religion. So until we can learn how to learn new things the road will be slow and long. I never lock myself into any one thing, idea or guru/leader etc. The lady that started this thread seems inteligent and I'm quit sure she is a beatiful human, how ever her dietary religion makes it as imposible for someone like me to engage in conversation with her as it does my next door neighbor with his religous book that he carys with him everywhere. He hates it when I ask him if he has tried any new religions lately, LOL! So lets not go to war with each other here, differant strokes for differant folks :p

[Whiskey_Mystic]

Belief systems, belief systems, belief systems. Oh, and declarations of final and total authority.

[John Parslow]

Hello Siberia9


There is a larger issue here for me, the biggest problem I see is that when people learn somthing new they run around thinking they know it ALL now. It is impossible to sugest anything new to them, even when you have already been down that road already. The new thing becomes their religion. I was raised vegetarian and it does not work for ME, if it works for you then thats great.

Did I miss something here, I see no correlation between being a vegetarian and any religion - or is this just confuse-a-John day?

Best regards. JP :cool:

[Solphilos]

ascension is about frequency and DNA CAPACITY...it's physics not wishful thinking and new-agey promises

Really? Was that written somewhere in Einsteins field equations???

[kevlar]

Now that it seems we have evolved enough to live without farm animals because believe me if we stop eating them they will no longer be reared, lets just hope that the ETs who farm humans don't decide that they have evolved enough to eliminate us from their agenda. Oh hang on they have, thats why they want to get rid of ? billion of us.
Maybe this is ascension for the souls of farm animals and humans because the vessels for them to occupy might be disappearing soon.

"I don't want an animal to die for me" could read "I don't want an animal to live for me"

love kevlar

[John Parslow]

Hello Sophilos


Really? Was that written somewhere in Einsteins field equations???

More like General Relativity methinks ... :cool:

[Solphilos]

Hello Sophilos


Really? Was that written somewhere in Einsteins field equations???

More like General Relativity methinks ... :cool:

I checked, it isn't there. Maybe somewhere in quantum theory?:p

[Koyaanisqatsi]

So the gist is this= try to stop eating meat, if not, then cut down. Especially red meats or meats that aren't raised and harvested responsibly/morally. As a competitive mixed martial artist, I have long been a chicken eater. Some days i eat a whole rotissurie chicken to myself for protein. I have a friend who is a world class martial artist, he hasn't lost in competition in over 6 years. He is veagan. He eats 10 meals a day, waking up twice every night to eat in said increments. He astonishes everyone in the gym, he seemingly NEVER fatigues. This is very interesting to consider.... anyone have thoughts on this? You can look him up his name is Jake Shields, his diet is evolved to the highest level imo.

[John Parslow]

Hello Solphilos


Originally Posted by John Parslow
Hello Sophilos

Really? Was that written somewhere in Einsteins field equations???
More like General Relativity methinks ...
I checked, it isn't there. Maybe somewhere in quantum theory?

Blimey, That was quick. Ha ha

All the best to you. JP :cool:

[Koyaanisqatsi]

He also has a daily dose of hempseed oil and bee pollen. He never has acne or a blemish which is exceedingly rare for people who roll around on a wrestling mat sweating for a living. He's also never had a cavity(since he started this diet 10 years ago)

[Omni]

ascension is about frequency and DNA CAPACITY...it's physics not wishful thinking and new-agey promises
Ascension is a vague term. Kind of like spirituality, or enlightenment. I see one aspect to the term ascension in the ascension of understanding. And also ascension of conscious perception in some in being able to view things from multiple perspectives. There are so many "graphs" the word ascension can be put on. But I do feel there is some kind of "ascension" psy op or two going on involving the alternative community.

I do feel there is an ascension genetically in terms of spiritual happenings. Least that is what I am lead to believe at this time. I think some things may affect it. But I suspect foul play involved in this area of information due to it's potential potency.

I don't feel any singular source of information critically tied to my ascension... In my experiences with beings calling themselves ETs they rarely speak of ascension and they would say things like what I just said but more eloquently for telepathic conversation. I think they would rather speak of something that brings understanding or automatic ascension. Spiritual ascension may happen automatically when experiencing things IMO. Least when I used to have it naturally in a mind expanding amazing area I felt something going on there spiritually possibly.

[Koyaanisqatsi]

Hello NancyV


Vegetarianism tends to emasculate men, especially if soy is a large part of the diet. A bunch of Girlie-men (as Arnold calls them) would be a desirable scenario for TPTB.

As a long term vegetarian and a father of three, I really have to take issue with your statement above - do you have any evidence for this?

Best regards. JP :cool:
Unfermented soy literally shriks your brain over the years. It is thought that soy heavy diets in men lessen testosterone production and enhances estrogen. This can't be proven that i'm aware of.....

[grapevine]

I'll give you a hint, what do sheep eat?
:clap2:

yes, and their DNA promotes herd mentality... therefor eating vegetarian promotes herd mentaltiy..

hey, just using the kind of logic and science of observation I am finding here....



haha.. that made me chuckle... thank you...

perhaps they should try smoking it .............

[Whiskey_Mystic]

Excessive soy is quite unhealthy.

Vegetarianism, while a very healthy choice, is not the right choice for everyone. Heresy! No, it's true. Some humans need meat, though not in the quantities that we in the west consume it. Did you know that the Buddha ate meat? Heck, he actually died from some bad pork. Jesus ate meat, too. *gasp* In the late nineties, even that icon of all goodly virtue the Dalai Lama switched over to a diet containing meat on the advice of his doctors. My own teacher, a lifelong vegetarian who loves animals more than anyone I know started eating small amounts of fish a few years ago for her health.

Do we need to treat animals with respect? Read The Animal Contract by Desmond Morris. Do we need to be more mindful of our diets? yes. I know many vegetarians who eat too much sugar and carbohydrate. Do we need to have gratitude for all lifeforms that we ingest, be they animal or vegetable? Yes. The consciousness and life of a plant has no less value than that of an animal. And before you tell me that plants don't suffer and feel pain, you should go talk to some of them more often.

I invite every reader to simply be conscious of their place in the cycle of life and death and how they choose to participate in it. And stop trying to shove your dogmatic belief systems down everyone else's throat. Our species has had quite enough of that.

Believe what you want and practice what you want. I respect your choice. Share your opinion with me and I will listen. But don't try to tell me how I should live my life. It's my quarter and I'll play as I think best.

Thank you and Namaste.

[ROMANWKT]

bravo jendayi bravo

[Solphilos]

He eats 10 meals a day, waking up twice every night to eat in said increments. He astonishes everyone in the gym, he seemingly NEVER fatigues. This is very interesting to consider.... anyone have thoughts on this? You can look him up his name is Jake Shields, his diet is evolved to the highest level imo.

Meats in general take much longer to digest than other foods, therefore the body would be putting more energy into digestion. In theory, one could eat very light, easy to digest foods in frequent doses and keep the body nourished without 'weighing it down'. I think for most people 10 meals a day is a bit much, but for weight trainers and athletes who need the excess carbs and calories I can understand this type of diet being efficient, and perhaps even ideal.

[DevilPigeon]

Hello NancyV


Vegetarianism tends to emasculate men, especially if soy is a large part of the diet. A bunch of Girlie-men (as Arnold calls them) would be a desirable scenario for TPTB.

As a long term vegetarian and a father of three, I really have to take issue with your statement above - do you have any evidence for this?

Best regards. JP :cool:
Unfermented soy literally shriks your brain over the years. It is thought that soy heavy diets in men lessen testosterone production and enhances estrogen. This can't be proven that i'm aware of.....

Isn't licorice similar......?

[s3nru]

Breatharian Wiley Brooks (www.breatharian.com) suggests that while transitioning to breatharianism to switch to a diet of 1/4 pounders from McDonalds, and diet coke from a plastic bottle. He actually says to stay away from fruits and veggies.


Read my lips:
If you are reading this, "You are already natural, true Breatharians. So stop trying to be something you already are and get on with the process of returning to your true home, which is the 5d Earth. What I call Earth prime on my web site.

This concoction of 5d beef, 5d liquid light from the diet coke, the 5d sweetener aspartame, french fries fried in 5d de-hydrogenated oil and 5d water (5d water contains liquid gold) from the enter-earth oceans, is what makes this 5d catalyst work.

Cows are 5d beings or higher. They incarnated on the 3d Earth to provide 5d food (beef) for humans. They provide 5d food for humans by converting 3d foods into 5d flesh. Their main mission is to serve mankind by feeding you, thus helping you to return home.

[shiva777]

ascension is NOT a vague term...just as water turns to steam when it is heated,physical matter turns to a more subtle state as frequency rises...ASCENDING frequencies..THAT IS PROVEN BY PHYSICS...Wilcock has done a lot of research into the PHYSICS of DNA activation etc(with many mistakes)

eating meat lowers your frequency...that's pretty clear by the long time it takes to digest..it adds to your physical density,,and what it effects on a physical level it effects on ALL your other levels as well

.many people want to tell you ascension is a vague term so that they can sell their fantasies and escapism...ascension used to be a scienctifically proven fact and that science is returning again...

again,if you think you need to eat meat,cut down on how much you eat and see if what you think is true...

[DevilPigeon]

Breatharian Wiley Brooks (www.breatharian.com) suggests that while transitioning to breatharianism to switch to a diet of 1/4 pounders from McDonalds, and diet coke from a plastic bottle. He actually says to stay away from fruits and veggies.


Read my lips:
If you are reading this, "You are already natural, true Breatharians. So stop trying to be something you already are and get on with the process of returning to your true home, which is the 5d Earth. What I call Earth prime on my web site.

This concoction of 5d beef, 5d liquid light from the diet coke, the 5d sweetener aspartame, french fries fried in 5d de-hydrogenated oil and 5d water (5d water contains liquid gold) from the enter-earth oceans, is what makes this 5d catalyst work.

Cows are 5d beings or higher. They incarnated on the 3d Earth to provide 5d food (beef) for humans. They provide 5d food for humans by converting 3d foods into 5d flesh. Their main mission is to serve mankind by feeding you, thus helping you to return home.

Please tell me this is a wind-up......

[Whiskey_Mystic]

ascension is NOT a vague term...just as water turns to steam when it is heated,physical matter turns to a more subtle state as frequency rises...ASCENDING frequencies..THAT IS PROVEN BY PHYSICS...Wilcock has done a lot of research into the PHYSICS of DNA activation etc(with many mistakes)

.many people want to tell you ascension is a vague term so that they can sell their fantasies and escapism...ascension used to be a scienctifically proven fact and that science is returning again...

again,if you think you need to eat meat,cut down on how much you eat and see if what you think is true...

I think ascension is a vague term for some. It is something very specific for others. It's very specific for me. When I say "ascension" I know exactly what I mean by it as do some that I am speaking to. People say the same about the word "enlightenment". Some say it is a vague term, but those in the know are referring to something very specific. Yet the Tao that can be told is not the eternal Tao. Still.

[Solphilos]

Excessive soy is quite unhealthy.

Vegetarianism, while a very healthy choice, is not the right choice for everyone. Heresy! No, it's true. Some humans need meat, though not in the quantities that we in the west consume it. Did you know that the Buddha ate meat? Heck, he actually died from some bad pork. Jesus ate meat, too. *gasp* In the late nineties, even that icon of all goodly virtue the Dalai Lama switched over to a diet containing meat on the advice of his doctors. My own teacher, a lifelong vegetarian who loves animals more than anyone I know started eating small amounts of fish a few years ago for her health.

Do we need to treat animals with respect? Read The Animal Contract by Desmond Morris. Do we need to be more mindful of our diets? yes. I know many vegetarians who eat too much sugar and carbohydrate. Do we need to have gratitude for all lifeforms that we ingest, be they animal or vegetable? Yes. The consciousness and life of a plant has no less value than that of an animal. And before you tell me that plants don't suffer and feel pain, you should go talk to some of them more often.

I invite every reader to simply be conscious of their place in the cycle of life and death and how they choose to participate in it. And stop trying to shove your dogmatic belief systems down everyone else's throat. Our species has had quite enough of that.

Believe what you want and practice what you want. I respect your choice. Share your opinion with me and I will listen. But don't try to tell me how I should live my life. It's my quarter and I'll play as I think best.

Thank you and Namaste.

Your quite correct. Many people tend to become blindsided by what they think they should eat, and ignore what their own bodies tell them. Most diet fanatics forget that the human species has survived and thrived on many various diets throughout its history. No one diet can be hailed as superior and raised above others for any reason, physical, spiritual or philosophical.
I have known people personally who have thrived on strict vegan diets, and I have known others who have tried it and failed due to malnutrition caused by it. Some people get ill from excess meat consumption, yet there is a culture in Mongolia who live off a diet exclusively of meat and dairy, and they generally very healthy and live long lives.
I myself went vegetarian and then strict vegan, which only lasted about a year before I grew extremely ill and had to give it up.
The point is, the best diet is the one that keeps you alive and kicking. Listen to what your body says and ignore the rest.

[Inelia]

Breatharian Wiley Brooks (www.breatharian.com) suggests that while transitioning to breatharianism to switch to a diet of 1/4 pounders from McDonalds, and diet coke from a plastic bottle. He actually says to stay away from fruits and veggies.


Read my lips:
If you are reading this, "You are already natural, true Breatharians. So stop trying to be something you already are and get on with the process of returning to your true home, which is the 5d Earth. What I call Earth prime on my web site.

This concoction of 5d beef, 5d liquid light from the diet coke, the 5d sweetener aspartame, french fries fried in 5d de-hydrogenated oil and 5d water (5d water contains liquid gold) from the enter-earth oceans, is what makes this 5d catalyst work.

Cows are 5d beings or higher. They incarnated on the 3d Earth to provide 5d food (beef) for humans. They provide 5d food for humans by converting 3d foods into 5d flesh. Their main mission is to serve mankind by feeding you, thus helping you to return home.

Please tell me this is a wind-up......

It is not a wind-up. Which goes to show the amount of "interpretation" that simple concepts get out there.
Inedia, the ability to live without food, is very broad and is known in a lot of cultures: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inedia

[Rocky_Shorz]

Problem is, I can buy a burger for $2 that will fill me up for 8 hours, or I can spend $15, for a bag of carrots, head of lettuce and a few apples that last the same amount of time...

Cheap food isn't healthy, but neither is starving...

[Constance]

ffffffffffffffffffffffffff

[Peace of Mind]

Hi, Arrowind,

I have learned directly from native american elders who have passed down their knowledge in an oral tradition, not controlled institues.
That’s cool, my grandmother is/was Cherokee Blackfoot too. I learned (thru her and others) that every tribe/people were not into flesh eating for various reasons… spiritually was one of the reasons that stuck out to me..

What would you suggest that these hunterers/gathers eat in the dead of winter?

agriculture was only minimally developed on Turtle Island when the white man evolved. Are you suggesting that a tribe in northern Vancouver should have been migrating to Mexico or Florida? Should people there only eat vegetables that have to be shipped in via trucks and refrigeration? Nuts that will not grow in a zone 4 climate? soy that is damaging to the hormonal system? Rice that does not grow in Canada? Perhaps we should just move all the people out of Canada and put them in Florida and California where they can have a sustainable diet. Are you absolutely sure about your claims on how Agriculture came about, maybe as far as mass production go but I’m sure many ancients already knew what fruits and veggies were edible and how to harvest them.

People today don’t really know much about our true His-story. When George Carver discovered the Soy bean it was used to extract dies for metals, and for paint. It was never meant for consumption. As far as people living in areas where plants/food isn’t available…It’s up to them to move, it’s certainly not my decision. When flesh eating became the norm, people were able to spread out to places that probably were seen as inhospitable at one time…all they had to do was feed on other creatures to sustain in that inhabitant.



We can make clothing from hemp if the law permitted but hemp was not a significant part of indigenous culture on Turtle Island.. Pretty dam hard going naked when its 5 below zero, Id say. This is true for much of North America and northern Europe and northern China and the mountain regions of south america. Id say that if you think people should go naked in such climates I say you go first. The sustainable solution is to use animal skins. Hemp could work. Cotton over utilizes water, and chemicals.
The Turtle Island is subjective matter. Besides, that’s only a solution if they choose to stay in such hostile environments.

I prefer the tropical locations myself. If they choose to freeze their fannies off in the cold climates because they don’t want to move to greener pastures…it’s their prerogative.

I am specifically refering to peoples of the Turtle Island. They are the same people of the old, under the influences of a non tradtional life style and diet. If the thesis is to be correct it must be correct for all peoples on every continent. the thesis is that eating meat damages the dna and can prevent ascension.
India is a continent that developed agrculture way before the peoples of Turtle Island. Flesh eating is not necessariy for survival if you have access to other foods of good protien quality. It requires agracultural cultures to do this. This was not availble to most of the world in the fourth world (as told by Hopi) until quite recently... Europe and the middle east and southern China being the leaders in agraculture.

I really don’t know how you come to terms with this. I highly doubt ancients didn’t know how to farm or garden. You can even look at some carvings on ancient sites and see that people had bowls of food….which look like fruit. I can’t recall seeing any pics of animal parts in their dishes. I’m sure they knew how to farm, effectively too.

there is much valuable information on the net. I whole heartedly disagree. Some of the most radical stuff anyone could think of is on the net, some true, some false.. many sites with alternative insightes to archeology, timelines, and the evolution of humanity. I dont save these links but have read on them.. again , I have sought much of my education from tradtional elders of Turtle Island who hold the ancient teachings. They see the white mans ways and their diet as the cause of great distress.. flour, too much carbs... not honoring mother earth... nor the spirit of the animals... tearing at the mothers flesh to create food that does not sustain the spirit and destroying her ecology in the process by creating all the factories necessary to make the whole thing go.

Not every plant/tree is here for human consumption. In fact, many of the vegetation can only be eaten by certain animals. While some plant/trees can be used for medicine, and shade in the afternoon sun. Earth grows this for us, it comes from her. Animals will tell you (in their own way) “I’m not your food”. It would be cool for you to send me a link of fruit and veggies doing this.

It is natural that agraculture developed in India, with its warm climate and being close, relatively to the mediteranian where its developement started.. mesopotamia (sp?) was it not? at least in this fourth world?
IMHO, I don’t think either of us is in a position to speak on this. As I mentioned earlier…this is highly subjective info, not confirmed facts.



the fact of the matter is that migrations ranged in a few hundred miles, not thousands in the old days.. To take a tribe and migrate 1000 miles to warm climate would be their demise. Yes, migrating to be vegetarian is unimportant to them. They were sustaining and thriving without. This whole thread insinuates that these people cannot advance their dna.. and infact have damaged their dna from eating meat. I absolutely protest this idea.

It’s ok to disagree, nothing wrong with that…I’m not the one, or will be the one doing the judging. What I do know about energy is that it can’t be created or destroy, but, you can consume the energy of fear, anger, and sadness….all within the meat people eat. You are what you eat.


For that matter provide one link to current peoples living in a cohesive society that eat only plants that do not depend on shipping of food and refrigeration over long distances.... I would be very interested in reading these links... I have looked myself but didnt find anything but maybe I am looking in the wrong place?

People just have to change their ways and locations…it’s just as simple as that. Excuses of why they can’t move will probably be off topic.

Back to their roots is a sustainable culture. back to their roots is hunting and gathering, Organic gardening where possible, for the vast majority within this the fourth world. I cannot speak for the 3rd world before this, that would likely take us back to Atlanian times. Halting shipping and refrigeration across the planet would be required would be back to roots.

I am talking about traditional peoples pre white man invasion, that ate vegetarian..where are records of these people? I can find only the most minimal information on such cultures, really, anywhere on the planet, except for maybe parts, and only parts of India. If vegetarian is requried for evolution then are we to say the indigenous peoples of Turtle Island and Australia cannot evolve? Are we saying that people of India are more evolved? Are we to base ones spiritual evolution on what they eat?

Much of the History that dealt with Egypt was destroyed; do you think proof of other ancient civilization didn’t face the same demise?

That their DNA is perpetually damaged? therefor an inferior race? and if inferior inferior to whom? those that eat flour and corn? and and rice? and who ship produce all over the world with great expense to the mother earth?

I will remind you that Aldoph Hitler was a vegetarian.

I don’t believe or get into discussions about trained His-story. It only causes debates that can’t really be proven in this day and age. I rather deal with the now and participate in making the specie better for each other and the world.

If you really want to talk about damaging DNA lets talk about excessive alcohol and drugs. People get addicted to the sugar of carbs, not the protiens in meat.

I agree…

Peace

[s3nru]

Please tell me this is a wind-up......

no more than anyone else (on the internet no less) telling me what to eat in order to reach ascension is a wind up. I have heard other breatharians talk about their transition involving vegetarian or fruitarian stages, and some who didn't have any of that. every person has their own path. some might never become breatharians/inediacs.

[Whiskey_Mystic]

Problem is, I can buy a burger for $2 that will fill me up for 8 hours, or I can spend $15, for a bag of carrots, head of lettuce and a few apples that last the same amount of time...

Cheap food isn't healthy, but neither is starving...

Rocky, this is a legitimate complaint for those trying to change their diet. Poison has been made widely available and cheap, even to the detriment of our global life support system. The poisonous big mac and aspertame lunch is also addictive and therefore self-sustaining. Of course, there is the question of nutritional content for your dollar as opposed to just filling your belly. With effort, I think it is possible to find something that fills you up, is cheap, and easy to make. My own crutch is black beans and rice. I never tire of it. If I need to, I can toss in some lime juice or cheese. I also love the superfood quinoa, though the rising popularity of it is causing problems for peasants who have subsisted on it for hundreds of years. There is always a trade off.

Eating healthier does require effort, but I think it is worth it. And if you get cravings for poison, which I still do, start by designating one day a week that you can eat whatever. You might find that when that day of the week comes, you no longer have the craving. It works for me.

[conk]

I wonder what the indigenous cultures would have to say of this thread? And what of the Eskimo's - how would they survive as a collective in their enviroment if they didn't eat seals and, whales etc? I only recently watched a fascinating documentary on this group and saw that they needed these animals to survive in that place or they'd be extinct. What would you suggest they used as an alternative food source in those freezing elements?

Slept on it...

Maybe we should ask the indigenous cultures themselves what they think about how they are living currently? Invite them to speak here :)

Until we can all come together in the "common passon" for every last man, woman and child on this planet, birng everyone to the table (pardon the pun) we will constantly debate what we need to do, where we need to do it, how we need to do it, why we need to do it, who we need to do it with and when we need to do it.

Wow, just dodged that question, eh? The fact is that these meat eating cultures are extremely healthy and rarely contract cancers or heart disease. The correlation between saturated meat fats and heart disease is blatantly wrong.

How do vegans obtain the nutrients that the body needs, that are only found in meat products? We didn't always have supplementation.

Whatever, the meat vs veggie debate will never be resolved to everyone's satisfaction.

[Arrowwind]

Hi Everyone;
This is my first post though I am a long time lurker / observer on Avalon Forum.
I find all sides of this question interesting and wonder if many of you have heard of the books The Paleo-Diet (Loren Cordain), The Paleo Solution (Robb Wolf), or The Primal Blueprint (Mark Sisson—also an interesting website at Mark’s Daily Apple.com) Primal diet protocols? (don’t know how to embed yet)

Essentially, their premise is that we evolved as omnivores and did not eat agricultural products until quite recently in our history. The metaphor used by one author (Wolf I think) says if human history is a 100 yard football field, agricultural products have only been used by humans for the last yard or so, hence, we are not biologically equipped to deal with grains, legumes, & dairy products.

Low protein / low carbs (i.e. meat, fish, low glycemic (sic?) vegetables) in their view are the “natural diet” of humans and eating a “modern diet” heavy in cultivated grains, legumes, breads, sugar, etc. lead to insulin resistance, intestinal damage, and ill health.

?

Absolutley... want to observe a sickly looking crew... hand out with some Hari Krishna's for a while... while granted they are way overboard on the sugar end... it is exacerbated by the huge level of grain carbs they eat. Time I spent with them I saw a lot of sickness in failry young people.

I love Hari Krishna dancing!

[DevilPigeon]

Please tell me this is a wind-up......

no more than anyone else (on the internet no less) telling me what to eat in order to reach ascension is a wind up. I have heard other breatharians talk about their transition involving vegetarian or fruitarian stages, and some who didn't have any of that. every person has their own path. some might never become breatharians/inediacs.

Forget the 'ascension' bit, that's of no relevance. Purely from a 'health' point of view, this type of nonsense is quite frankly dangerous, the problem being that people read stuff like this and because it's on the internet take it as gospel & either start eating this junk on a more regular basis, or if they're already eating it regularly see articles like this as further justification for carrying on...

I'm not suggesting for one moment that if it's a choice between eating this stuff and starving one should choose to starve, not at all. But rather your day-to-day food intake should be as healthy as it can be.

I just hope whoever is giving this type of ridiculous advice can sleep at night... But I'm sure they do, safe in the knowledge the shares they undoubtedly have in the fast-food industry are doing quite nicely thank you very much.

[Solphilos]

ascension is NOT a vague term...just as water turns to steam when it is heated,physical matter turns to a more subtle state as frequency rises...ASCENDING frequencies..THAT IS PROVEN BY PHYSICS... You can't take one fact as an analogy and use it to prove something else that has no basis in real science. Please, use your scientific knowledge to enlighten us on what it means to raise the frequency of matter. What happens to the atoms, and what stimulates them into this change?


eating meat lowers your frequency...that's pretty clear by the long time it takes to digest.. Meat it dense, therefore it takes longer to be broken down by acids in the stomach. This is science fact, there is no need to resort to new-age hoodoo in attempt to explain it.


...ascension used to be a scienctifically proven fact and that science is returning again... Is there any proof that it used to be proven? If so, wouldn't it still be proven today?
What happened, did the pudding run out?


again,if you think you need to eat meat,cut down on how much you eat and see if what you think is true...
I can't speak for everyone, but when I cut meat from my diet my body didn't transmute into a higher frequency and I didn't find myself standing aboard some mothership or planet in another dimension. My skin did obtain a nice glow however! I would recommend a meat-free diet for those who struggle with acne or other skin disorders.

[Arrowwind]

I wonder what the indigenous cultures would have to say of this thread? And what of the Eskimo's - how would they survive as a collective in their enviroment if they didn't eat seals and, whales etc? I only recently watched a fascinating documentary on this group and saw that they needed these animals to survive in that place or they'd be extinct. What would you suggest they used as an alternative food source in those freezing elements?

Slept on it...

Maybe we should ask the indigenous cultures themselves what they think about how they are living currently? Invite them to speak here :)

Until we can all come together in the "common passon" for every last man, woman and child on this planet, bring everyone to the table (pardon the pun) we will constantly debate what we need to do, where we need to do it, how we need to do it, why we need to do it, who we need to do it with and when we need to do it.

What a copout.

[Whiskey_Mystic]

Until we can all come together in the "common passon" for every last man, woman and child on this planet, bring everyone to the table (pardon the pun) we will constantly debate what we need to do, where we need to do it, how we need to do it, why we need to do it, who we need to do it with and when we need to do it.

Tangent Warning! Indulgent Philosophical Meanderings Ahead!

I think this is where I am trying to make my point. It is not necessary to come to a decision of what should be done for every person on the planet. It is only necessary to decide for yourself. Offer education to others and realize that some will not take it. They have their own life path to follow. We often rush in to fix everything before sitting and listening and feeling to determine if it really needs fixing or if it is the way it needs to be. It is this way with people as well.

Some of my friends choose to smoke pot. I do not. We make our choices. Because I have the information, I let them know that marijuana usage clouds the third eye. I don't tell them what they should do. What they do is their choice. Maybe they don't change their habit because they don't want to. Or maybe they don't trust my knowledge. But it's their choice. I don't need to decide for them. Or nag them. I'm not going to decide what is best for them.

All of that being said, I propose that we enact legislation to mail a free copy of Diet for a Small Planet to every household in the world. It is important information that every person should be exposed to.

Now I will get :focus:

[John Parslow]

Hello all

I am trying to understand the connection on this thread with vegetarianism and Soy, as I mentioned in a previous thread I have been a veggie for over thirty years and have never eaten a Soy product in my life. Fresh fruit and vegetables ... Uhhhmm :cool:

Love to all. JP

[Whiskey_Mystic]

Hello all

I am trying to understand the connection on this thread with vegetarianism and Soy, as I mentioned in a previous thread I have been a veggie for over thirty years and have never eaten a Soy product in my life. Fresh fruit and vegetables ... Uhhhmm :cool:

Love to all. JP

John, it might be that many non-vegetarians think that veggies eat soy, soy, and more soy. The supermarket (at least here) is full of soy-based meat substitutes. From the outside it looks like all you have to do is just replace your meat products with these soy substitutes.

[Arrowwind]

You know. . . .I really thought that when I left organized religion and began studying and researching “alternative” beliefs and truths that somehow I left all that hurtful dangerous dogma behind.

...................

Obviously not. Sometimes seems like there is no getting away from it, eh?
All one can do is keep holding their internal light, and "Know That I Am God"
regardless if you eat McDonalds or Wheat Grass.
Eventually, in one carnation or another, folks come around.

[s3nru]

I'm not suggesting for one moment that if it's a choice between eating this stuff and starving one should choose to starve, not at all. But rather your day-to-day food intake should be as healthy as it can be.

I just hope whoever is giving this type of ridiculous advice can sleep at night... But I'm sure they do, safe in the knowledge the shares they undoubtedly have in the fast-food industry are doing quite nicely thank you very much.

Wiley Brooks has been championing breatharianism for 30 years. Check out his youtube video from 20 years ago before judging him, there's more at work here than what seems.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z3e5wueoN4

[John Parslow]

Hello Whiskey_Mystic

Thanks for the reply, it occurs to me that it seems a bit of a cop-out to have to eat a 'meat substitute' when there are so many other choices: Grains; Nuts; Pulses; Fruit and vegetables to name a few - all good to eat and nutritious too ... but I have to say I would not in any way assume that because I made the choice to be a veggie that anyone else has to follow suit - much better to follow your heart methinks!

Best regards. JP :cool:

[Arrowwind]

[QUOTE=Constance Neal;195456]
All of that being said, I propose that we enact legislation to mail a free copy of Diet for a Small Planet to every household in the world. It is important information that every person should be exposed to.

Now I will get :focus:

Yep. Slop up all that soy that book recommends...
screw your hormones
support the monsanto dream
of genetically engineered food products
and eat a food that was not designed
for human consumption,
Orientals had the good sense to ferment it
and eat it in only very small dosages.

[Whiskey_Mystic]

Your quite correct. Many people tend to become blindsided by what they think they should eat, and ignore what their own bodies tell them. Most diet fanatics forget that the human species has survived and thrived on many various diets throughout its history. No one diet can be hailed as superior and raised above others for any reason, physical, spiritual or philosophical.
I have known people personally who have thrived on strict vegan diets, and I have known others who have tried it and failed due to malnutrition caused by it. Some people get ill from excess meat consumption, yet there is a culture in Mongolia who live off a diet exclusively of meat and dairy, and they generally very healthy and live long lives.
I myself went vegetarian and then strict vegan, which only lasted about a year before I grew extremely ill and had to give it up.
The point is, the best diet is the one that keeps you alive and kicking. Listen to what your body says and ignore the rest.

Good post. Of course, my estimation of a good post is directly correlated to the degree to which that post agrees with me.

The only problem with listening to what our bodies tell us now is that our bodies are being tricked with chemicals. I had a heck of time getting off of diet coke. I still get cravings and I don't even like the taste! I also crave sugar and hot salted fat, which I am pretty sure is not good for me. I think that it becomes easier to listen to your body after you go through a detox. With practice, we can listen deeper than the initial addiction cravings. I think.

[modwiz]

China, is the most populated country on the planet and that is with abortion and a long time one child policy.

It would seem that tofu or soybeans has not led to emasculation here. I know they include some animals products, think pork fried rice for portion concept, but they do eat a fair amount of soy. I eat a fair amount of soy and at 58 years old can still hang a jacket without a problem. Boring usage but capable of it. Enough with the theories about emasculation.

I am not a theory, just a fact.

[Constance]

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[Whiskey_Mystic]

[
Yep. Slop up all that soy that book recommends...
screw your hormones
support the monsanto dream
of genetically engineered food products
and eat a food that was not designed
for human consumption,
Orientals had the good sense to ferment it
and eat it in only very small dosages.


I have an even better idea. Let's see the world in completely black and white terms.

Us vs. Them.
Black vs. White.
Good vs. Bad.

We should deifnitely not look at a body of work and take what we know to be useful from it, using our discernment to leave what is not. Any source of information should be viewed as entirely true and perfect or useless. And in the meantime, we can also indulge in our smug self-righteousness about how smart we are to reject the diabolical conspiracy of the "other". Good plan. And good luck with that.

(ha ha! Whiskey has a temper today.) :grouphug:

[NancyV]

Hello NancyV


Vegetarianism tends to emasculate men, especially if soy is a large part of the diet. A bunch of Girlie-men (as Arnold calls them) would be a desirable scenario for TPTB.

As a long term vegetarian and a father of three, I really have to take issue with your statement above - do you have any evidence for this?

Best regards. JP :cool:
There is lots of evidence all over the internet and also presented on Dr. Joseph Mercola's website about the dangers of soy. Here is an article on Mercola's site: http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2010/12/04/soy-dangers-summarized.aspx

If you can't read that without registering, here is an article from another site about the feminizing aspects of Soy for men: http://www.menshealth.com/bestfoods/food_features/Is_This_the_Most_Dangerous_Food_for_Men.php

Dr. Mercola, as did many of us, used to think soy was a health food. Many of us also thought vegetarianism was healthy and preferable for spiritual reasons. Some of us, including Dr. Mercola, changed our opinions completely after new information came to light. Also my years of experience in spiritual pursuits proved that vegetarianism was not necessary, at least not for me. If one has a strong belief that it's necessary it may be so for them, and that's fine. We each have the right to choose or accept any limitations we wish to believe.

I made the mistake for many years of using too much soy and my son suffered some of the effects of overuse of soy products. I finally got him to quit eating it about 10 years ago when I found out how dangerous it could be for all of us and especially for men and babies.

As far as my flippant statement about girlie-men that was just a joke in my rather irreverent and occasionally unabashedly sexist style of humor. At least I am an equal opportunity sexist and joke about women as much as men. We're all pretty funny in our own unique ways.

Nancy :)

[Rocky_Shorz]

hmmm 38.5 Million square km of grow-able lands of which only 1/3 is being used...

$38.5 Billion cut from the National Budget which is less than 1/3 of what 400 people gained from US tax cuts...

can anyone still afford a burger?

I know of a place that sells rice and beans with it instead of French Fries. ;)

Double the price and it comes with a Salad... ;)


anyone know what will happen when 7 Billion Spirits level their frequencies at 400 hiding in a bunker?

[Belle]

Until we can all come together in the "common passon" for every last man, woman and child on this planet, bring everyone to the table (pardon the pun) we will constantly debate what we need to do, where we need to do it, how we need to do it, why we need to do it, who we need to do it with and when we need to do it.

I've read this thread with interest, tho' surprised at the passion and contention over food. Had you posted this at the very beginning, Constance, I would not have read further.

How fortunate we all are to have the luxury of debating diet when so many people of this world are starving and would be grateful to have anything to eat...it matters not whether it is meat or grain or fruit or vegetable...

Now a thread on proposing solutions to eliminate the hunger that exists in the world would be a more appropriate approach to your statement above, imo.

That being said, this thread has been enlightening on many fronts and I thank you for your courage and efforts to bring this challenging subject out in the open.

[DevilPigeon]

I'm not suggesting for one moment that if it's a choice between eating this stuff and starving one should choose to starve, not at all. But rather your day-to-day food intake should be as healthy as it can be.

I just hope whoever is giving this type of ridiculous advice can sleep at night... But I'm sure they do, safe in the knowledge the shares they undoubtedly have in the fast-food industry are doing quite nicely thank you very much.

Wiley Brooks has been championing breatharianism for 30 years. Check out his youtube video from 20 years ago before judging him, there's more at work here than what seems.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z3e5wueoN4

That's cool, and to be fair I watched the video and have to say it sounds interesting, even to the point of it making sense...! But this vid is promoting a concept that is totally opposite to what I was getting at.

What I was getting at was the apparent promotion of having a mostly junk food diet rather than more obvious healthy choices. There was even a link to that on the website. I can understand the concept of reducing intake down to nothing over time, in a controlled way, but doing that would surely be better by eating more natural simple foods rather than the chemical concoctions spewed out by the junk food corporations?

[Constance]

ffffffffffffffffffffffffff

[Constance]

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[John Parslow]

Hello again Constance

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pescetarianism

Many thanks for your comments and the above link, now my daughter (who is a 'proper' vegetarian) knows what to call me instead of 'a pretend vegetarian' ... :cool:

Love and peace to you. JP

[Nyce555]

I have to agree that eating meat probably does slow down our ascension. But I do think eating it in moderation is not completely bad for you. Some days I don't even want meat, but some days I have a craving for protein and i will eat it. I mostly like to eat seafood and chicken/turkey. But everyone in a blue moon, I will grill some steak. I also love fruits and veggies and make sure that I eat them all day every day. Cooked or Fresh. I don't drink milk though. I don't like dairy products much.

[NancyV]

I'm not suggesting for one moment that if it's a choice between eating this stuff and starving one should choose to starve, not at all. But rather your day-to-day food intake should be as healthy as it can be.

I just hope whoever is giving this type of ridiculous advice can sleep at night... But I'm sure they do, safe in the knowledge the shares they undoubtedly have in the fast-food industry are doing quite nicely thank you very much.

Wiley Brooks has been championing breatharianism for 30 years. Check out his youtube video from 20 years ago before judging him, there's more at work here than what seems.
Yes, Wiley Brooks was our inspiration in the early 80's for attempting to become breatharians. He came to Hawaii several times when we lived there. Do a bit more research and you will find out that he is also a liar. His girlfriend told us one time when he was visiting that he ate McDonald's hamburgers and Kentucky fried chicken upon occasion. He has also been caught by others eating junk food. He was big news in the 80's, which is when my husband and I met him and bought into the breatharian trip.

I believe that it is quite possible to not eat and to subsist on energy from other sources but we were not successful at doing so as the ill health effects of prolonged frutarianism stopped us from continuing. Okay, maybe we weren't "advanced" enough to fully subsist on energy alone. But I don't necessarily see it as an advancement or high spiritual attribute. Why then are we in a body with a digestive system? It seems fairly elementary to me that this body was designed to extract energy for life from food. The fact that we "can" subsist on energy alone does not mean that it's the wisest move for everyone to do so. It does point out though that almost anything is possible.

But Wiley is not a great example of a genuine breatharian.

Nancy

[K626]

It's also the way food is handled, and the energy, vibration of those handling it that makes a big difference to the end product.

Which is why blessing food before u eat it, is good practice to increase its vibration.


I eat meat, but only from free range and responsible producers.

Mostly i eat white meat, chicken and fish and sometimes duck.

The animals are happy, much loved and well looked after,

organic and free range.

I have visited some of these producers myself.

I have tried not eating meat, and certainly i eat very little these days,

but i get very tired and my bad focus ( ADD symptoms) gets even worse,

i'm unproductive and end up frustrated and depressed.

Sure i could be a vegetarian, but i would end up back on ADD meds just to get up and function everyday.

Its all a fine balance for me, and diet is a big part of that.

But as spiritual beings we are SO powerful.

We can alter the vibration of the food we take in, so it is for our highest good.



But interesting thread Constance, thank you for being you.

blessings,

Astrid

That is the absolute key Astrid. The body takes what it needs and you can tune it to various degrees depending on what you are eating.

I have practiced living rough and have caught and eaten rabbit, squirrel and wild fowl and really found myself satisfyied that I was able to do this and learnt new skills for survival. If people can teach themselves to live in bracken and woods in such a manner it really is a big skill for survival in uncertain times.

I find most meats boring but do treat myself to red meat from time to time as I really love the taste and the blood of it. :p

If I feel happy within myself I see no harm in it for my personal karma and it is good to re-enact some wildness within the humdrum day to day persona...Might be a man thing...

Try and get free range eggs and other sustainable and well looked after produce of course as everyone should if at all possible with regard to budget and time.

Peace

K

[Constance]

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[K626]

Hello NancyV


Vegetarianism tends to emasculate men, especially if soy is a large part of the diet. A bunch of Girlie-men (as Arnold calls them) would be a desirable scenario for TPTB.

As a long term vegetarian and a father of three, I really have to take issue with your statement above - do you have any evidence for this?

Best regards. JP :cool:
There is lots of evidence all over the internet and also presented on Dr. Joseph Mercola's website about the dangers of soy. Here is an article on Mercola's site: http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2010/12/04/soy-dangers-summarized.aspx

If you can't read that without registering, here is an article from another site about the feminizing aspects of Soy for men: http://www.menshealth.com/bestfoods/food_features/Is_This_the_Most_Dangerous_Food_for_Men.php

Dr. Mercola, as did many of us, used to think soy was a health food. Many of us also thought vegetarianism was healthy and preferable for spiritual reasons. Some of us, including Dr. Mercola, changed our opinions completely after new information came to light. Also my years of experience in spiritual pursuits proved that vegetarianism was not necessary, at least not for me. If one has a strong belief that it's necessary it may be so for them, and that's fine. We each have the right to choose or accept any limitations we wish to believe.

I made the mistake for many years of using too much soy and my son suffered some of the effects of overuse of soy products. I finally got him to quit eating it about 10 years ago when I found out how dangerous it could be for all of us and especially for men and babies.

As far as my flippant statement about girlie-men that was just a joke in my rather irreverent and occasionally unabashedly sexist style of humor. At least I am an equal opportunity sexist and joke about women as much as men. We're all pretty funny in our own unique ways.

Nancy :)

Pretty well know that soy isn't that good for men.

Thanks for the reminder Nancy.

K

[K626]

What about canine teeth? Humans are born with canine teeth that are specifically designed for tearing meat. If we are not supposed to eat meat: why are we born with teeth to tear meat?


Those teeth you are talking about are for eating nuts not meat.

There is a lot of data that the change to high protein intake increased the size of the brain of early man.

Don't miss the boat Ice. :p

love

K

[Constance]

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[Solphilos]

Your quite correct. Many people tend to become blindsided by what they think they should eat, and ignore what their own bodies tell them. Most diet fanatics forget that the human species has survived and thrived on many various diets throughout its history. No one diet can be hailed as superior and raised above others for any reason, physical, spiritual or philosophical.
I have known people personally who have thrived on strict vegan diets, and I have known others who have tried it and failed due to malnutrition caused by it. Some people get ill from excess meat consumption, yet there is a culture in Mongolia who live off a diet exclusively of meat and dairy, and they generally very healthy and live long lives.
I myself went vegetarian and then strict vegan, which only lasted about a year before I grew extremely ill and had to give it up.
The point is, the best diet is the one that keeps you alive and kicking. Listen to what your body says and ignore the rest.

Good post. Of course, my estimation of a good post is directly correlated to the degree to which that post agrees with me.

The only problem with listening to what our bodies tell us now is that our bodies are being tricked with chemicals. I had a heck of time getting off of diet coke. I still get cravings and I don't even like the taste! I also crave sugar and hot salted fat, which I am pretty sure is not good for me. I think that it becomes easier to listen to your body after you go through a detox. With practice, we can listen deeper than the initial addiction cravings. I think.

I'm glad you brought up this point, as I have previously confused people when telling them to give their bodies what they crave. Obviously filling ones head with cocaine would not be ideal, our bodies will deceive us! lol.
It's really all about knowing ourselves, and like you said, listening deeper than the addictions most of us have.

[noprophet]

I would just like to say 'vegetarian' is in no way congruent with 'soy intake'. The assumptions seem to continue on this. I eat no soy and have been vegetarian for about three or four years.

Is it possible that the soy/vegetarian psychological association is really just a programming to keep a hand on the piggies even when they back away form the trough?

TPTB have had their hands in the meat just as much as the grain. There are huge option's on both sides.

On a possibly related note I've had a cold once in the last three years. A very mild cold.

It's not for everyone but if you can handle it; try it. There's no real words, but it's the energetic equivalent to removing a thin veil from the eyes. Carmody described it well.

[modwiz]

I'm not suggesting for one moment that if it's a choice between eating this stuff and starving one should choose to starve, not at all. But rather your day-to-day food intake should be as healthy as it can be.

I just hope whoever is giving this type of ridiculous advice can sleep at night... But I'm sure they do, safe in the knowledge the shares they undoubtedly have in the fast-food industry are doing quite nicely thank you very much.

Wiley Brooks has been championing breatharianism for 30 years. Check out his youtube video from 20 years ago before judging him, there's more at work here than what seems.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z3e5wueoN4

That's cool, and to be fair I watched the video and have to say it sounds interesting, even to the point of it making sense...! But this vid is promoting a concept that is totally opposite to what I was getting at.

What I was getting at was the apparent promotion of having a mostly junk food diet rather than more obvious healthy choices. There was even a link to that on the website. I can understand the concept of reducing intake down to nothing over time, in a controlled way, but doing that would surely be better by eating more natural simple foods rather than the chemical concoctions spewed out by the junk food corporations?

Wiley. What's in a name?

[DevilPigeon]

-----

I seem to recall seeing an article some time back about a nun (I think) that had gone several years without consuming food (or it might even have been water), so I'm not discounting this as nonsense, especially as Inelia mentioned in an earlier post that she used to thrive without food herself.

The bit that ruffled my feathers was a link within the breatharian website that was basically a free advert for McDonalds.

[Carmody]

At the risk of repeating myself:

My personal understanding is that if you think you can kill living beings and move to the highest levels of spiritual truth, you are really kidding yourself.... with a lie told to you by your body's whispers and murmurings.

I eat meat and I do, at times, experience the particular animal's death. I understand the bargain I am making.

I have largely limited myself to bits of chicken and fish. Almost never red meat.

It is as if the meat advocates in this thread are seeing other people place the heads of others on the curb ..and stomp those given heads in....and when doing the same..saying 'it's ok!, it's all good. it's normal!' Ahhh...no.

Confront and face the bargain you are making... is all I ask.

Nothing more.

Ever been to a slaughterhouse? Some of you have.

Ever been inside the mind of another person? Ever been inside of an animal when it is being slaughtered? I have. Yes to both.

Perspective does help. It'll teach you a few things.

You are living in an avatar system. The body is mechanical.... and it does like to eat other creatures. Understand that the urge is in the system, it is not you. Whether or not your particular avatar can survive without meats due to genetic disposition ---that is a question, isn't it?

My particular body does very well, healthwise -with the neanderthal type diet. That is when I'm my healthiest. However, I don't like to eat meats, most times.

Spiritually? I do my best with a pure vegan diet. And I may do that again...some time soon.

As stated.. North America has not been put together with that sort of diet in mind, so the path to get there in a standard NA (North American) lifestyle can be a bit tricky, at best. The general knowledge of what to do is simply not around, in the overall sense.

The trick here is to not identify too strongly with the avatar. It isn't you. Realize it is a mask ....and take it off every now and then.

edit:

Look at this way: If you want to be a world class athlete then certain things must be done. Even the weather can affect your performance at those levels. One bad meal can ruin a race, event or even a career.

Spirituality? same-same. If you are living your avatar based life and doing just fine then, good for you.

However, if you wish to go for an extreme point, level or act... of taking this situation, this reality, this avatar system...as far as it can go, IMO and IME..No animal flesh. It really is that simple. Just like the diet and the life of the athlete, certain things need to be done.

I'm not training right now to do 'world class' things. I might go for that again, soon. In that case, during the ramp up and in the time frame involved...no animal products will enter my body. Of course, in that state of mind, I gotta tell you, the idea of eating meats sure is an unpleasant thought.

[K626]

At the risk of repeating myself:

My personal understanding is that if you think you can kill living beings and move to the highest levels of spiritual truth, you are really kidding yourself.... with a lie told to you by your body's whispers and murmurings.

I eat meat and I do, at times, experience the particular animal's death. I understand the bargain I am making.

I have largely limited myself to bits of chicken and fish. Almost never red meat.

It is as if the meat advocates in this thread are seeing other people place the heads of others on the curb ..and stomp those given heads in....and when doing the same..saying 'it's ok!, it's all good. it's normal!' Ahhh...no.

Confront and face the bargain you are making... is all I ask.

Nothing more.

Ever been to a slaughterhouse? Some of you have.

Ever been inside the mind of another person? Ever been inside of an animal when it is being slaughtered? I have. Yes to both.

Perspective does help. It'll teach you a few things.

You are living in an avatar system. The body is mechanical.... and it does like to eat other creatures. Understand that the urge is in the system, it is not you. Whether or not your particular avatar can survive without meats due to genetic disposition ---that is a question, isn't it?

My particular body does very well, healthwise -with the neanderthal type diet. That is when I'm my healthiest. However, I don't like to eat meats, most times.

Spiritually? I do my best with a pure vegan diet. And I may do that again...some time soon.

As stated.. North America has not been put together with that sort of diet in mind, so the path to get there in a standard NA (North American) lifestyle can be a bit tricky, at best. The general knowledge of what to do is simply not around, in the overall sense.

The trick here is to not identify too strongly with the avatar. It isn't you. Realize it is a mask ....and take it off every now and then.

Good post Carmody and fairly laid out.

The Buddhist monks that I stayed with had no problems eating meat although they would eat it in a particular way ie only meat and meat alone on a particular day and that would inc cheese and milk etc..

Other days they would only eat fruit or vegetables.

Didn't really give it much thought when I was there.

cheers

K

nb There were some who didn't eat meat at all.

[HORIZONS]

Much wisdom in your post Carmody - a good balanced view and understandable. :thumb:

[Constance]

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[Chicodoodoo]

Do you want to put science first before internal knowledge Chico?

Any method that leads to truth could work for me.


All claims ever do is verify what IS internal knowledge. Claims are all about the ego. It is all external knowledge and a distraction. Keeps you from looking inside.

Claims don't verify anything -- they are just claims. Internal knowledge is not necessarily truth any more than external knowledge. If all we had to do is look inside for the answers, no one would have any questions.


If someone has the ability to do this, what might they know about our DNA? Brian has spent the last 27 years of his life studying everything he could about human potential. All from direct experience and internal knowledge. Nothing external. He can share all that you would ever care to know about Chico and more.

Of course he can share what he knows. So can we all. That doesn't mean any of us speaks truth. Contemplating on one spot doesn't make anyone an expert on DNA. All knowledge of DNA is from external sources, is less than 60 years old, and is massively incomplete. We're still learning about DNA. It's a very vast and complex subject.


Eating ANY form of animal product will shut your DNA down.

Your claim reminded me of this post (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?4030-Hollow-earth&p=36757&viewfull=1#post36757) by Bill Ryan in the "Hollow Earth" thread. Essentially, Bill says we shouldn't make wild claims without including some kind of supporting evidence. I tend to agree.

I'm also reminded of another person that made some wild claims without any supporting evidence. He caused quite a stir here at Avalon. We called him "Charles".

[Constance]

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[slvrfx]

Had to put in my 2-cents...

To put it simply, I believe as the Native American's did, and other indigenous peoples...balance in all things, and eat meat, while honoring the animal who willingly gave its life for you.

I was a vegetarian for a few years, until a Naturopathic Dr. informed me I was hurting myself because my ancestors were heavy meat eaters, and I was shocking my DNA by going without.

Made sense to me.

Every person should do what makes sense to him/her.

That simple.

(It's not our 'job' to 'fix' others. We're all totally capable. To think otherwise is an insult to others' spirits.)

[bilko]

-----

I seem to recall seeing an article some time back about a nun (I think) that had gone several years without consuming food (or it might even have been water), so I'm not discounting this as nonsense, especially as Inelia mentioned in an earlier post that she used to thrive without food herself.

The bit that ruffled my feathers was a link within the breatharian website that was basically a free advert for McDonalds.

She ate mana, like a sustaining plasma.
Can't remember her name although she was a sister.

[DawgBone]

I've been on a strict vegetarian diet twice for periods of 3 or 4 years. I was physically fine during that time. Currently I eat very little meat and intend to resume a vegetarian diet for the duration.

I would just like to point out that vegetarian diets can be delicious, really delicious. It is not much of sacrifice in terms of enjoying food. Really.

To encourage people, perhaps we should start a vegetarian recipe thread ???

[l3ol3o]

I'm sorry but I don't agree with this idea at all. In fact I would consider it disinformation at its finest.

I don't have a problem if your a vegan or if you don't like people that eat meat but to say eating meat will shut down your DNA is pure BS and disinformation.

Humans are Omnivores. Our teeth are a mix of those that carnivores and herbivores have, showing an evolutionary path that proves we are able to process both.

DNA is the blue print for life. Why would Humans be designed to be omnivores if meat was destroying our DNA? Don't you think if meat was truly destroying our DNA, we would evolve to dislike meat? Surely something that would destroy DNA (And thus be a major threat to the Human species) would be a major target of evolutionary process. As new generations would be born, genes would be passed down for humans to dislike meat.

I have seen no evidence of this at all. Humans have always been Omnivores.

Radiation destroys DNA. Meat does not. Look up some pictures of children in the Chernobyl area. That is what radiation does to DNA.

I also don't see how you can make a spiritual connection to this at all. The only thing I can think of is it makes you feel "above" people who eat meat. Keep dreaming...

I am sorry to be so hard but you had to know to expect this by making a statement this ridiculous.

You a trying to promote your vegan agenda by spreading misinformation and I come to this board to try to stay away from misinformation.

Sorry for being so blunt.

[observer]

A Clarion Call

I can hear the silent screams of fish,
Haunting me in my dreams.
If only fish could scream,
You say.

In my memories of who we once where,
I now turn away as men face-off,
Across a field some call honor….
In the name of a self-appointed king….
As they rush against a hail-storm of molten death.

In my memories of who we once where,
I can still feel the pierce of a bayonet in my belly,
As I once laid dying in the shadow of impaled bodies.
While those around me feasted,
Inebriated on the carcass of a slain beast.

As the mothers of the fallen leave a trail of tears,
Tracing-back to the dawn of man.
Yet, the history of man’s inhumanity to man,
Is a well-worn highway upon that very trail of sorrow.

I wander here alone ….

Upon this barren landscape….

Awash with the blood of all my grandfather’s relations….
Among men with the blank stare of murder in the windows of their souls,
Who would rather slit the throat of the wounded deer,
Then spend the price of another round…

Mad with the lust for blood….

As they sit and eat its heart.

In my memory of who I am,
I wonder how many,
Would partake of the holiday feast,
If the slaughter of the beast,
Were mandatory requirements of the ceremony….

In my memories of who we are,
I remember this is not my happy place….

I remember my Creator’s heart is heavy with what we have become….

I remember the place where I’d rather be….

I remember all this because now…

In my dreams….

I can hear the screams of fish….


© copyright observer 2009.

[Teakai]

I read a while ago that they did an autopsy on a cadaver and found something like 3 kilos of undigested red meat in the intestine (cor, who'd want that job??). I don't know if it's a fact that the human is 'designed' to eat meat.
On what do we base that thinking?

I remember hearing Credo Muttwah say that back in the day the oldest animal in a pack would give its life as food. That's stayed with me. But it's a far cry from breeding animals for the slaughterhouse. That's just really sad. I heard pigs were almost as smart as humans. Imagine.

Yeah, I can't imagine a consciously spiritual being being OK with eating meat as it's processed today to get on the supermarket shelves.

[Agape]

Disinformation eh . What about intelligent life elsewhere in the Universe ? Advanced beings there do not eat one another mostly ..but again,
sorry you were disinformed.
What about any first hand knowledge ? From whom ? Mainstream science and media perhaps ?
Will they let you know ?


Maybe half of the civilisation diseases could be well cured if people gave up on meet eating, there you have it, your organs can't stand all the protein uptake, your hormones are messed up, look at the populace, if it all would be so healthy as you claim .


:fish2:

[Carmody]

This subject touches the depths of the block on and in the avatar system. Ie,the spirit and the body interface.

The body is forced to confront it's mortality in the moment of uttering this aspect of 'not reaching full DNA potential if you eat flesh'.

Therein lies the heat in and surrounding this discussion.

The unconscious aspects of thought formation in the mind... being steered by the expression via a fleshy avatar rears it's head.... and the fear of loss comes down the pipe and dictates your response pattern.

Seriously.

Know thyself.

In this case, know your duality.

If you truly look in the depths of the duality avatar system, you will know that this aspect of needing to not consume animal flesh is 100% correct. However, at what stage your given evolution is at -is the real question.

You have a short path to a better place if you wish to take that road, or taste that road. To take it out for a test drive, so to speak. To be a true vegan for a while, in among the whole meditative Kundalini approach. Go for the Gusto, go for the gold, the brass ring, whatever you want to call it.

In all seriousness, I do see some (people) unwilling to deal with the depths of this as it is an ego-avatar issue, at it's deepest levels..and it is laid bare with the introduction of this subject. Which means it is no small wonder that a strong response occurs. This subject pokes your inner child and animal/avatar/body straight in the eye, and we begin to see who/what is forming those thoughts and what the level control of the base drives and self awareness actually is ...in the given individual. I have my weak spots too, they are just not in this subject area. Find the right stick and place to poke....and you'll see. Same as anyone else.

We are also in the middle of two strong astrological alignments, today.

[Constance]

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[Agape]

I can hear the silent screams of fish,
Haunting me in my dreams.
If only fish could scream,
You say.




I've had the experience actually ..

I don't eat meat for about 18 years or so. Sometimes I make that mischief for the sake of it all ..

can't say I'd be right sick but can feel my body fights against . It does not want the information.


Once I had a fish in the Burmese Monastery in Bodhgaya, we had beautiful kitchen, based mostly on rice and vegetables of course and lots of green tea ,
that is if they gave me a lunch :lol:

I'd not eat meat but tasted the fried fish , beautiful again. And then I dreamt of wild fish in my belly looking like snakes . Scary .


:alien:

[DawgBone]

I'm sorry but I don't agree with this idea at all. In fact I would consider it disinformation at its finest.

The yogis have been the spiritual athletes on this planet for at least 4000 years. They have consistently recommended a vegetarian diet. Why do you suppose that is?

Now whether it has anything to do with DNA is another matter. I tend to believe that DNA is just a mechanism for assembling proteins until we have hard scientific evidence that it is more.

But in terms of spiritual practice, the experts say that vegetarianism is important.

[Constance]

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[jorr lundstrom]

Good thread. Ill call the people who Im in contact with who are enlightened and tell them not to eat

meat anymore. I know that carrots scream when they are picked out of the soil.

Its just a question of which frequensis we can hear. To not cause any

suffering maybye we could eat gravel or something like it. I dont know if small

pebbles scream if you eat them. Love and screaming carrots

[Constance]

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[RedeZra]

it's such a waste of energy to eat meat


not only does the body burn more energy to digest meat

but the animals consume much more energy than what they can provide when eaten


the world wastes half of the grain harvest to farm feed animals for slaughter when this grain could provide so much more energy to so many more people




I like my meat

well I like my smoke

still it's just a habit

unless it has become an addiction

[Whiskey_Mystic]

If this is the case, then I desist. I can dialogue for hours, but for me to argue, is a waste of time as I do not consider your truth as "wrong" or in any way conflicting or mutually exclusive to "mine". You are, after all, another expression of ME.

Go for it... :)

It's like watching someone argue with the sky.

[Belle]

What I have said and will say again, is that we all need to be able to agree about what we want, now and forever, for every single last man, woman and child on this planet so that we can move in the direction that we need to.

Could you please expand on this, Constance? I'm trying to understand why...for what purpose do we need to move in a particular direction?

[ponda]

Here's a little story of mine.

The last time that i ate meat was on Christmas day in 2008.I was living in a compound of units in La Unuion Province,Luzon Island,Philippines.I had had a recent meat craving that had been building up for a few weeks and so i thought that i would crack and have some meat on xmas day...what the heck i thought...everyone else is doing it.

Anyway i bought some bacon and eggs and cooked them up for chrissie dinner.I do admit i enjoyed the meal after not having had any bacon and eggs for so long.

The unit next to me had been empty for the whole entire time that i had been there which was about 10 months.

The very next week after Christmas the owner of the compound started storing large bags of pig manure in the unit next door to me.Yes you could really smell it when the wind was blowing the right way which was most of the time from the sea breeze.

Never the less i haven't eaten any meat since then and i put what happened down to a case of instant karma and i moved out shortly afterwards.

[Lord Sidious]

Good thread. Ill call the people who Im in contact with who are enlightened and tell them not to eat

meat anymore. I know that carrots scream when they are picked out of the soil.

Its just a question of which frequensis we can hear. To not cause any

suffering maybye we could eat gravel or something like it. I dont know if small

pebbles scream if you eat them. Love and screaming carrots

The carrots only scream when they see the nostrils they are going up.

As for pebbles, I love hard rock, but I didn't think it would come to mean eating rocks.
Gives a whole new meaning to the term ''getting stoned'', but it would be a bitch on your teeth.





If this is the case, then I desist. I can dialogue for hours, but for me to argue, is a waste of time as I do not consider your truth as "wrong" or in any way conflicting or mutually exclusive to "mine". You are, after all, another expression of ME.

Go for it... :)

It's like watching someone argue with the sky.

I did that once.
Then it peed on me.

[Snowbird]

Odah - What i will say is that i do know or have heard and can believe.. That Meat was forced into our diets in such amounts. As a way to make us much more aggressive. So then yeah you can sell me on eating meat makes it harder to keep a peaceful state.


Lord Sidious # 38 - I read that on this forum the other day.
I have never heard of it before, but you know what? It feels true.
Think about this, the animal has some type of soul/spirit.
We are trying to raise ours to a higher vibration. Eating the animals meat could be seen as a type of exploitation.
That being the case, it would have to harm our efforts.

This is the first time that I have heard this or considered it, but this makes tremendous sense.

I recall hearing about human organ transplant recipients taking on characteristics of their donors even though they had never met. This following article is fascinating and is filled with stories of how transplant recipients changed after receiving donor transplants.


Changes in Heart Transplant Recipients that Parallel the Personalities of Their Donors
by William James, MD

It is generally assumed that learning involves primarily the nervous system and, secondarily, the immune system. Hence, patients receiving peripheral organ transplants should not experience personality changes that parallel those of donors they have never met. When personality changes have been observed following transplants, the kinds of explanations entertained include effects of the immunosuppressant drugs, psychosocial stress, and preexisting psychopathology of the recipients.

However, living systems theory explicitly posits that all living cells possess "memory" and "decider" functional sub-systems within them.

In 1997, a book titled A Change of Heart was published that described the apparent personality changes experienced by Claire Sylvia. Sylvia received a heart and lung transplant at Yale - New Haven Hospital in 1988. She reported noticing that various attitudes, habits, and tastes changed following her surgery. She had inexplicable cravings for foods she previously disliked. For example, though she was a health-conscious dancer and choreographer, upon leaving the hospital she had an uncontrollable urge to go to a Kentucky Fried Chicken and order chicken nuggets, a food she never ate. Sylvia found herself drawn toward "cool" colors and no longer dressed in the bright reds and oranges she used to prefer. She began behaving with an aggressiveness and impetuosity that was uncharacteristic of her, but turned out to be similar to the personality of her donor. Interestingly, uneaten Kentucky Fried chicken nuggets were found in the jacket of the young man when he was killed.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/44348752/CHANGES-IN-HEART-TRANSPLANT-RECIPIENTS-THAT-PARALLEL-THE-PERSONALITIES-OF-THEIR-DONORS

[TimelessDimensions]

Everything is made from light,

Therefore it does not matter what you eat,

But what intention you use your light.

[Arpheus]

Wow i gotta say this folks and i would like to thank Constance again for this thread because,this brought back some of Avalon's finest back in full motion in here and i love what i see from all who posted here really i do and i mean that,now to concurr with Carmody and many others in one specific aspect because i done it myself as well for a while although i am not doing it right now,i was pure vegan for about 5 6 months or so,what can i say i am weak i am still working on it LOL,like i said in my earlier post i still do a little bit of tuna and shrimp occasionally,but anyway to continue my story those 5 6 months i went pure vegan and also did quite a bit of raw intake as well,the change within me on a spiritual level was so powerful that was almost a scary experience,in a good way tho,i saw things felt things sensed things and dreamed of things that i will NEVER forget in this lifetime and others to come hopefully,so please to say this is disinfo without experiencing it yourself is kind of ignorant and i dont mean to offend anyone by that because i cant think of a better word for that right now.So before you dismiss this and start saying it doesnt shut down your DNA its BS its non sense and its DISINFO do yourself a favor and you wont even have to do it for 5 6 months,go a month or two pure vegan and experience the bliss if you can,because let me tell you its worth it!And if nothing happens go back to your burgers and fries then LOL,now on a more serious note despite the difference of opinions and ego wars going on here i am really enjoying reading this thread and having a blast reading all the posts and man i havent laughed this hard in eons HAH,thanks so much Constance and all who contributed to this thread so far,its been a real honor and i am having DEJA"VU of old Avalon as i read all of this heh,good work folks!

Much peace to all!!

[Arrowwind]

regarding soy this is what weston price has to say. The following is some of the highlights. For the full article go here:
http://www.westonaprice.org/soy-alert/708-reply-to-sardi?qh=YTo3OntpOjA7czozOiJzb3kiO2k6MTtzOjM6InNvaSI7aToyO3M6NDoic295cyI7aTozO3M6NzoiZm9ybXVsYSI7aTo 0O3M6ODoiZm9ybXVsYXMiO2k6NTtzOjg6ImZvcm11bGFlIjtpOjY7czoxMToic295IGZvcm11bGEiO30%3D (http://www.westonaprice.org/soy-alert/708-reply-to-sardi?qh=YTo3OntpOjA7czozOiJzb3kiO2k6MTtzOjM6InNvaSI7aToyO3M6NDoic295cyI7aTozO3M6NzoiZm9ybXVsYSI7aTo 0O3M6ODoiZm9ybXVsYXMiO2k6NTtzOjg6ImZvcm11bGFlIjtpOjY7czoxMToic295IGZvcm11bGEiO30%3D)

and another article of interest where Weston Price foundation directly confronts soy advocates.
http://www.westonaprice.org/component/content/article/55-wapf-blog/2006?qh=YTo3OntpOjA7czozOiJzb3kiO2k6MTtzOjM6InNvaSI7aToyO3M6NDoic295cyI7aTozO3M6NzoiZm9ybXVsYSI7aTo0 O3M6ODoiZm9ybXVsYXMiO2k6NTtzOjg6ImZvcm11bGFlIjtpOjY7czoxMToic295IGZvcm11bGEiO30%3D (http://www.westonaprice.org/component/content/article/55-wapf-blog/2006?qh=YTo3OntpOjA7czozOiJzb3kiO2k6MTtzOjM6InNvaSI7aToyO3M6NDoic295cyI7aTozO3M6NzoiZm9ybXVsYSI7aTo0 O3M6ODoiZm9ybXVsYXMiO2k6NTtzOjg6ImZvcm11bGFlIjtpOjY7czoxMToic295IGZvcm11bGEiO30%3D)

and by the way studies show that oriental people eat between one and two teaspoons of soy a day, that is 5 to 10 grams... far below what many vegetarians eat who are into eating soy. One certainly should not give it to their kids do to hormonal effects.

and now for the Research on Soy

A study from Cornell University, published in the Journal of the American College of Nutrition, 1986, which found that children who develop diabetes mellitus were twice as likely to have been fed soy.


A November 1994 warning published in Pediatrics in which the Nutrition Committee of the American Academy of Pediatrics advised against the use of soy formulas due to the diabetes risk. These warnings have been neglected ever since it was reported that the AAP accepted a multi-dollar donation from the Infant Formula Council for their new headquarters building outside Chicago.


A 1994 article by Lonnerdal published in Acta Paediatr summarizing the reduced bioavailability of trace minerals due to high phytic acid content in soy infant formula; and high levels of manganese in soy formula compared to cows milk formula and breast milk. Excessive intake of manganese is linked to problems with the central nervous system.


A 1996 report published in the German magazine Klin Padiatr describing the development of hypocalcemic tetany in an infant fed soy formula.


Two 1997 studies published in Nutrition and Cancer. One found that phytoestrogens at levels close to probable levels in humans stimulate cellular changes leading to breast cancer; the other found that dietary soy suppressed enzymes protective of breast cancer in mice.


A 1998 study published in the American Journal of Clinical Nutrition further confirming that soy-protein supplementation stimulates cell proliferation in human breast tissue.


A 1998 study published in Cancer Research which found that dietary genistein enhances the growth of mammary gland tumors in mice.


A 1998 study by Nagata and others published in the Journal of Nutrition which gives daily consumption of tofu in Japan's Gifu prefecture as less than 1 gram per day.


A 1998 study published in Toxicology and Industrial Health indicating the phytoestrogens are potential endocrine disrupters in males.


A March 12, 1999 Daily Express article with the headline "Soy Allergy/Adverse Effect Rates Skyrocket - Monsanto's Roundup-Ready Soy Blamed"


A 1999 study at the Clinical Research Center at MIT, published in the Proceedings of the Annual Meeting of the Pacific Coast Reproductive Society which found that estrogens in soy had no effect on menopausal symptoms such as hot flashes and night sweats.


May 1999 and June 2000 studies published in Brain Research indicating that phytoestrogens have adverse affects on brain chemistry.


An April 2000 study published in Proceedings of the National Academy of Science which found that flavonoids, especially genistein, can cross the placenta and induce cell changes that lead to infant leukemia.


An article published in Nutrition and Cancer 2000 which found lower testosterone levels and higher estrogen levels in Japanese men who consumed higher levels of soy foods.


Publication in the British Journal of Urology, January 2000, of the study showing a five-time greater risk of delivering a boy with hypospadias, a birth defect of the penis, in mothers who ate a vegetarian diet during pregnancy. The researchers attributed high rates of the birth defect to phytoestrogens in soy products.


An April 2000 study published in Carcinogenesis found that soy feeding stimulated the growth of rat thyroid with iodine deficiency, partly through a pituitary-dependent pathway.


A June 2000 article in American Journal of Cardiology which found that soy had no impact on lipid levels in healthy postmenopausal women


Evidence that disturbing results were omitted from a 1994 study presented to the FDA during the approval process for Roundup Ready Soybeans. Researchers found that raw Roundup Ready meal contained 27 percent more trypsin inhibitor and toasted Roundup Ready meal contained 18 percent more trypsin inhibitor compared to non-genetically manipulated controls.

[Constance]

ffffffffffffffffffffffffff

[Constance]

ffffffffffffffffffffffffff

[ponda]

regarding soy this is what weston price has to say. The following is some of the highlights. For the full article go here:
http://www.westonaprice.org/soy-alert/708-reply-to-sardi?qh=YTo3OntpOjA7czozOiJzb3kiO2k6MTtzOjM6InNvaSI7aToyO3M6NDoic295cyI7aTozO3M6NzoiZm9ybXVsYSI7aTo 0O3M6ODoiZm9ybXVsYXMiO2k6NTtzOjg6ImZvcm11bGFlIjtpOjY7czoxMToic295IGZvcm11bGEiO30%3D (http://www.westonaprice.org/soy-alert/708-reply-to-sardi?qh=YTo3OntpOjA7czozOiJzb3kiO2k6MTtzOjM6InNvaSI7aToyO3M6NDoic295cyI7aTozO3M6NzoiZm9ybXVsYSI7aTo 0O3M6ODoiZm9ybXVsYXMiO2k6NTtzOjg6ImZvcm11bGFlIjtpOjY7czoxMToic295IGZvcm11bGEiO30%3D)

and another article of interest where Weston Price foundation directly confronts soy advocates.
http://www.westonaprice.org/component/content/article/55-wapf-blog/2006?qh=YTo3OntpOjA7czozOiJzb3kiO2k6MTtzOjM6InNvaSI7aToyO3M6NDoic295cyI7aTozO3M6NzoiZm9ybXVsYSI7aTo0 O3M6ODoiZm9ybXVsYXMiO2k6NTtzOjg6ImZvcm11bGFlIjtpOjY7czoxMToic295IGZvcm11bGEiO30%3D (http://www.westonaprice.org/component/content/article/55-wapf-blog/2006?qh=YTo3OntpOjA7czozOiJzb3kiO2k6MTtzOjM6InNvaSI7aToyO3M6NDoic295cyI7aTozO3M6NzoiZm9ybXVsYSI7aTo0 O3M6ODoiZm9ybXVsYXMiO2k6NTtzOjg6ImZvcm11bGFlIjtpOjY7czoxMToic295IGZvcm11bGEiO30%3D)

and by the way studies show that oriental people eat between one and two teaspoons of soy a day, that is 5 to 10 grams... far below what many vegetarians eat who are into eating soy. One certainly should not give it to their kids do to hormonal effects.

and now for the Research on Soy

A study from Cornell University, published in the Journal of the American College of Nutrition, 1986, which found that children who develop diabetes mellitus were twice as likely to have been fed soy.


A November 1994 warning published in Pediatrics in which the Nutrition Committee of the American Academy of Pediatrics advised against the use of soy formulas due to the diabetes risk. These warnings have been neglected ever since it was reported that the AAP accepted a multi-dollar donation from the Infant Formula Council for their new headquarters building outside Chicago.


A 1994 article by Lonnerdal published in Acta Paediatr summarizing the reduced bioavailability of trace minerals due to high phytic acid content in soy infant formula; and high levels of manganese in soy formula compared to cows milk formula and breast milk. Excessive intake of manganese is linked to problems with the central nervous system.


A 1996 report published in the German magazine Klin Padiatr describing the development of hypocalcemic tetany in an infant fed soy formula.


Two 1997 studies published in Nutrition and Cancer. One found that phytoestrogens at levels close to probable levels in humans stimulate cellular changes leading to breast cancer; the other found that dietary soy suppressed enzymes protective of breast cancer in mice.


A 1998 study published in the American Journal of Clinical Nutrition further confirming that soy-protein supplementation stimulates cell proliferation in human breast tissue.


A 1998 study published in Cancer Research which found that dietary genistein enhances the growth of mammary gland tumors in mice.


A 1998 study by Nagata and others published in the Journal of Nutrition which gives daily consumption of tofu in Japan's Gifu prefecture as less than 1 gram per day.


A 1998 study published in Toxicology and Industrial Health indicating the phytoestrogens are potential endocrine disrupters in males.


A March 12, 1999 Daily Express article with the headline "Soy Allergy/Adverse Effect Rates Skyrocket - Monsanto's Roundup-Ready Soy Blamed"


A 1999 study at the Clinical Research Center at MIT, published in the Proceedings of the Annual Meeting of the Pacific Coast Reproductive Society which found that estrogens in soy had no effect on menopausal symptoms such as hot flashes and night sweats.


May 1999 and June 2000 studies published in Brain Research indicating that phytoestrogens have adverse affects on brain chemistry.


An April 2000 study published in Proceedings of the National Academy of Science which found that flavonoids, especially genistein, can cross the placenta and induce cell changes that lead to infant leukemia.


An article published in Nutrition and Cancer 2000 which found lower testosterone levels and higher estrogen levels in Japanese men who consumed higher levels of soy foods.


Publication in the British Journal of Urology, January 2000, of the study showing a five-time greater risk of delivering a boy with hypospadias, a birth defect of the penis, in mothers who ate a vegetarian diet during pregnancy. The researchers attributed high rates of the birth defect to phytoestrogens in soy products.


An April 2000 study published in Carcinogenesis found that soy feeding stimulated the growth of rat thyroid with iodine deficiency, partly through a pituitary-dependent pathway.


A June 2000 article in American Journal of Cardiology which found that soy had no impact on lipid levels in healthy postmenopausal women


Evidence that disturbing results were omitted from a 1994 study presented to the FDA during the approval process for Roundup Ready Soybeans. Researchers found that raw Roundup Ready meal contained 27 percent more trypsin inhibitor and toasted Roundup Ready meal contained 18 percent more trypsin inhibitor compared to non-genetically manipulated controls.



I started using GMO free soy instead of milk on cereals for breaky about 20 years ago and apart from the third head which has just popped up and the arm growing out of my back i'm perfectly fine.;)

[Constance]

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[Strat]

There are two different discussions going on here that are loosely connected. One is about the optimum diet and the other is simply theoretical.

Both are open to debate, neither are understood fully. The arguments are arising because both parties want to be right, though they don't have access to all of the knowledge available. Go back and note everyone that has had an angry, emotional response, there's not a lot fortunately. Quick, angry responses arise when someone has an opinion they feel passionate about, though they don't have enough information to prove its worth. Be extremely careful when taking these peoples advice, especially if you have children.

So what is the best diet? Is it vegan or not? The examples I've seen have been “what somebody told me, from my experience” examples. There have also been examples of how it isn't natural and that our ancestors can't be proven to have been meat eaters because we weren't alive 'back then.'

My opinion is that I won't blindly take anyones advice on significant dietary changes without concrete evidence. What someone has told them, or how veganism has effected their body is not an ideal reason for me to change my diet. There are two billion people that believe I will burn somewhere that nobody has ever seen for an eternity if I don't do what they do. They have freakishly similar arguments of prayer miracles and how their beliefs have changed their lives.

The argument of dietary choices being 'natural' will vary from person to person. The vary word 'natural' is a topic of its own. I believe historically humans ate animals of various types. 'Guns, Germs, and Steel' has a wealth of knowledge on this. In archaeological digs there are fish hooks found, suggesting they ate fish. Squanto was a native American that taught colonial Americans to use fish bones to fertilize soil. I imagine when they discovered this it was a byproduct of fishing, and that they ate the fish. There's also a native American saying, “Chase two rabbits and lose them both.”

The mega fauna survived 20something ice ages. It wasn't until the humans came around that they died out. There is a lot of debate over this, though I am of the opinion that it was humans that killed them off. I believe it was for food. In archaeological digs, they have found spears in the ribs of woolly mammoths. I believe that our ancestors wouldn't have wasted this meat, and ate it. I doubt they killed all these creatures 'for the hell of it.'

No I wasn't there, so I can't prove it. In the same sense none of you were there, so yall can't disprove it either.

I think the vegan diet is actually the one that is more a recent phenomenon. In areas where people don't have easy access to protein they often have bloated stomachs like you would see with starving people. In this case, it's explained as a result of high volume and low protein. I think veganism works nowadays because of 'nutrient excess,' for lack of a better term. We can get any vitamin, mineral or nutrient rediculously easy. A vegan can get just as much protein as a non vegan through protein powders and whatnot. However, this is not natural (in my book) and certainly was not available 'back in the day.'

For the discussion of ascension, Constance claims a strict vegan diet is the optimum way to go. Not only can one not eat meat, but no eggs, fish, or dairy, nothing remotely involved with animal products. It has been suggested by various members that the animal is suffering, and under stress. Apparently we absorb these emotions when we consume the animal.

I will admit, I don't know much about ascension. I imagine this is another one of those 'open to interpretation' things. I probably know the least about this though, so you all will have to educate me on this, maybe refer me to a good book. I'm reading all the time so you can bet I'll check it out if you recommend it (I saw your earlier recommendation, “Food Revolution”).

I do have a small issue with this though. Deoxyribonucleic acid sounds pretty technical to me. There are people here spouting information without scientific backing, links, or references of any kind. Complex scientific discoveries are being mixed with laymans ideals to form hypothesies. It may not be the case, but if you are trying to get people to try and stop eating meat, this will be a problem to overcome.

It's a reason why I won't stop, though I may be a bit more stubborn than the average cookie.

Koya said something that was incredible that did not fly under my radar. Jake Shields is a vegan. OK, apparently there aren't any other MMA fans here. Jake Shields is one of the baddest mofos walking this earth currently alive. I am a huge Shields fan boy. I was amazed to hear this and looked it up and it's true! He does eat a ton of eggs though. I'm curious if he takes any supplements (do you have an inside scoop Koya?). You guys really don't get it, he's not just any MMA average joe, he's one of the best of the best. Koya was being extremely modest on Jake's behalf. Sorry for the fan boy rant.. Oh yeah, Herschel Walker is a vegan as well and he is a freak of nature (I mean that in a good way). So that is good evidence that the vegan diet may be ideal for these days.

I'm not married to any idea, I'm just looking for truth.

When it comes to us all getting along, it's on you guys. I like you guys and would never insult or shun you because of what you eat come lunchtime. That's absurd!

[s3nru]

Koya said something that was increadible that did not fly under my radar. Jake Shields is a vegan. OK, apparently there aren't any other MMA fans here. Jake Shields is one of the baddest mofos walking this earth currently alive. I am a huge Shields fan boy. I was amazed to hear this and looked it up and it's true! He does eat a ton of eggs though. I'm curious if he takes any supplements (do you have an inside scoop Koya?). You guys really don't get it, he's not just any MMA average joe, he's one of the best of the best. Koya was being extremely modest on Jake's behalf. Sorry for the fan boy rant.. Oh yeah, Herschel Walker is a vegan as well and he is a freak of nature (I mean that in a good way). So that is good evidence that the vegan diet may be ideal for these days.

Yah Jake Shields, Jon Fitch, and i think Mac Danzig is another fighter who are veg if not vegan.

I still think 1/4lbs with diet coke in a plastic bottle and Wiley's five magic words are a much more potent tool for ascension.

[Chicodoodoo]

We could produce all sorts of evidence to back up our claims but this is one hot potato. How far do you think we would get with them before they got stashed away somewhere. Never to be seen again? People who provide evidence for something they know about often end up dead...or imprisoned. Any bright ideas?

It would seem to me that the safest thing to do is for someone to anonymously post all the evidence available into the public domain (Internet).

Without evidence, the claim is so broad and so vague, it can hardly be taken seriously. Most people eat some animal products, and their DNA appears to function just fine. Those few that don't eat animal products don't appear to be any different. Since there are no differences that are evident or obvious, there is a definite need for some kind of evidence. Wouldn't you agree?

[Omni]

What I have said and will say again, is that we all need to be able to agree about what we want, now and forever, for every single last man, woman and child on this planet so that we can move in the direction that we need to.

Could you please expand on this, Constance? I'm trying to understand why...for what purpose do we need to move in a particular direction?
Brian Schaefer has discovered a way to wake up the brain so that we are using it 100%. We all have this potential. The outcome of this is literally, a paradise on earth, or a heaven-on-earth. By sharing in the 27 "common passions", we can start over again and experience this to its fullest potential.

I think using 10% well is better than using 100% in any way you can. But I am interested. Has he taught this to you? How do you know what you are saying is truth? Did he get his brain monitored and make some news?

Honestly I'm skeptical of your claims of this person. I'm not sure we'd even want to use 100% of our brain at once... It's probably a lot more complex than a bigger % = better. Do you want to use 100% of the capability of a computer at once? Might be a hint it's not optimal. But a small one.

[Teakai]

I think the vegan diet is actually the one that is more a recent phenomenon.

Hi Strat, I know you said vegan, but I don't know if you feel the same about vegetarian diet- but, what you said reminded me that a vegetarian diet - or maybe it was vegan (it didn;t specify that part) is recommended in the bible - which, if it wasn't put together in the 14th century as Anatoly Fomenko puts forth, then it's not such a new age idea. I'll go and try to find the spot where I found it and put it up here.

Edit to add:

Found it in the book of Daniel - definitely sounds vegan.


"11 Daniel then said to the guard whom the chief official had appointed over Daniel, Hananiah, Mishael and Azariah, 12 “Please test your servants for ten days: Give us nothing but vegetables to eat and water to drink. 13 Then compare our appearance with that of the young men who eat the royal food, and treat your servants in accordance with what you see.” 14 So he agreed to this and tested them for ten days.
15 At the end of the ten days they looked healthier and better nourished than any of the young men who ate the royal food. 16 So the guard took away their choice food and the wine they were to drink and gave them vegetables instead. "

[Raven]

Here is a poem I like by Jane Roberts from her book of poetry titled "If We Live Again or Public Magic and Private Love"

Kitchen

Beast, fish, bird and lettuce,
we ask your blessing and forgiveness
who transform your trust
into our flesh,
yet I laugh at your wisdom.
Entering us, you ascend
the stairs of the molecules;
Looking out through our eyes,
you prepare the meat and vegetables.
Who laughs?

[Constance]

ffffffffffffffffffffffffff

[panopticon]

G'day Constance,

You are arguing a strong position from a place of personal inner truth and while I respectfully disagree with your position (as is my sovereign right as an individual) I would like to applaud your calm approach.
I would, however, like to direct you to this page (http://faculty.washington.edu/chudler/tenper.html) concerning the 10% vs 100% brain use question. Please do not think I am being condescending directing you to a page entitled "Neuroscience For Kids" as that was not my intent or purpose. I found the information straight forward and as I am a non-scientist I thought it might help.

I understand your point of view and the point of view as presented by others.
It is the 'brain use percentage' question I am addressing here (not the meat/DNA dialogue).
Yes it could be argued that 90% of the brains capacity is unmeasurable by our (human) technology if the need is that important...
I personally feel the 10% story needs to be accepted as an urban myth...
Off to have a nice hot dinner (it is belting down outside).

Kind Regards, :yo:
Panopticon