Proof that the universe is an organized illusion ?

[bilko]

I will say right out that this is a theory that popped into my head today. I am looking for some of you smart people to pick up on it and decipher my rambling. Disprove it or prove it.

There is no illusion or intended drama here hence the question mark.

Now;
I drive trains for a living and in doing so spend a lot of time starring at red or green signals ( traffic lights ). A thought popped into my head today whilst i was waiting and starring at a red signal. How do i know that signal is red?

Of course i can see it and red signals are always at the bottom of the stack so snow can't build up on the glare hood and obscure them ( some trivia for you ).

We know that there is no direct connection between the outside world and the brain. What we see and feel is all controlled by electrical impulses to the brain. However, with the eyes more than other parts of the body, what you see is more of an interpretation. Hence tricks of the light etc.

So there are bound to be slight differences between people about their interpretation of red and green but in this ordered universe those differences are accounted for.

So red light knows it has to be red?
I am struggling with the correlation i made but i boils down to this.
Each thing has been programmed. A leaf knows it is a leaf and not a stone. Red knows it is red and not green or a tree.

There are rules, a foundation and structure has been set. Each thing that we encounter in this universe has a job to do, a role to perform.

This, for some reason got me thinking about computer programs ( of which i know very little ) but as i looked around, present in the now i got the feeling i was interacting not with a happenstance, and accident but a deliberate design. A structure or program laid out for us.

All because i know a red signal when i see one and so do you!

We are not living on a collection of rocks thrown together by some big bang, inhabited by the processes of natural evolution. We are living in a design, a program - illusion - hologram?

Now i ask once again for the smart people to read between the lines and try to pick out what my mind is trying to verbalize here. Is this proof of a plan, a program or set of rules that something has set in place?

As with so any things, i think the truth is right in front of our eyes.

[Lord Sidious]

I sit and think about things when I am able to.
Like in the shower, on the toilet, going to sleep, that sort of thing.
And it is funny you mention signals.
I was thinking about how dumb we are.
Late at night, no traffic and we actually stop for red lights and stop signs.
Why?
A sign/signal is inanimate and its only purpose is to aid us, not control us.
So, if there is no traffic and no cameras, why not just keep going? I do that.
So my thought is this, if the cops see you go through the stop sign and ask you ''Didn't you see the sign?'' and you tell them you did, but so what?
And they reply ''Did you see what it says?''
I could reply ''Yeah, but do I have to believe it? Am I not a man? Is that not inanimate?''
You know they won't have an answer that can rebut it.
Just a thought that I had that seems to at least run parallel to yours.

[firstlook]

It seems that we tend to forget that what we experience is a system of cause and effect that literally spans into infinite reach. The idea that people say everything is an illusion usually stems from an isolated examination of boundaries and parameters. But something tells me its simply a cause and effect universe that is so......micro and macro that we perceive nothing but what we want to.

We stem a free will concept of our own cause and effect that really is quite beautiful in its perception. Language guards it with no bias, only boundary. Some say language us a barrier, but that only bugs people who think there are no barriers. I believe its what makes our perception so......choosable, if thats a word.

So if you subscribe to this minimum of structuring the basic functioning of our interaction with what is perceived "outside" of ourselves, it leaves a perfect formula for endless evolution and experience.

Nothing can be perfect in a cause and effect outline. Some say duality, but I think thats a term that is loaded with the "illusion" factor. Illusion of interaction is not inspiring enough, because it doesn't account for the range between time and space, micro and macro.

I dont know if my point is clear, but I believe we are part of a.........thing that when we really understand its functionality, no words are needed to describe the system, intention, blueprint, divine, god-mind, etc....., we either experience it or we dont.

We inhabit the higher vibration and begin setting all new definitions relating to cause and effect/on and off perception.

What really boggles the mind is the concept of "nothing". Because when you mention a question/problem, you are creating the answers within your understanding in some way.

This shows a constant source or plan to me. Why? because its self-sustaining and infinite.

Thats good enough for me as proof of Intention through out the universe in all its interactions. :)

[Ross]

Immediately this came to mind from our dear friend Morpheus:


"If real is what you can feel, smell, taste and see, then 'real' is simply electrical signals interpreted by your brain."



Have you ever had a dream, Neo, that you were so sure was real? What if you were unable to wake from that dream? How would you know the difference between the dream world and the real world?


Do you believe that my being stronger or faster has anything to do with my muscles in this place? Do you think that's air you're breathing now?


What is "real"? How do you define "real"?


The Matrix is a computer-generated dream world built to keep us under control i

Which could be as simple as:


The pill you took is part of a trace program. It's designed to disrupt your input/output carrier signal so we can pinpoint your location.

Ross

[Hervé]

That's a good one bilko!

Here's some answer to "Molyneux's question":



Researchers said Sunday they had solved a conundrum about human perception that has stumped philosophers and scientists alike since it was first articulated 323 years ago by an Irish politician in a letter to John Locke.
Imagine, William Molyneux wrote to the great British thinker, that a man blind from birth who has learned to identify objects -- a sphere and a cube, for example -- only through his sense of touch is suddenly able to see.
The puzzle, he continued, is "Whether he Could, by his Sight, and before he touch them, know which is the Globe and which the Cube?"
For philosophers of the time, answering "Molyneux's question," as it was known ever after, would resolve a fundamental uncertainty about the human mind.


Whole article here: http://ca.news.yahoo.com/scientists-settle-centuries-old-debate-perception-20110410-121241-856.html

[firstlook]

That's a good one bilko!

Here's some answer to "Molyneux's question":



Researchers said Sunday they had solved a conundrum about human perception that has stumped philosophers and scientists alike since it was first articulated 323 years ago by an Irish politician in a letter to John Locke.
Imagine, William Molyneux wrote to the great British thinker, that a man blind from birth who has learned to identify objects -- a sphere and a cube, for example -- only through his sense of touch is suddenly able to see.
The puzzle, he continued, is "Whether he Could, by his Sight, and before he touch them, know which is the Globe and which the Cube?"
For philosophers of the time, answering "Molyneux's question," as it was known ever after, would resolve a fundamental uncertainty about the human mind.


Whole article here: http://ca.news.yahoo.com/scientists-settle-centuries-old-debate-perception-20110410-121241-856.html

the conundrum is of course how could someone generate the question between what is a cube and what is a sphere without the perceived boundaries that we understand.

simple, you either create the boundaries or not.

create meaning both a reflection of current circumstances or your perceptual existence and the expression of new parameters. IE; an expression itself that continues the cause and effect/reflect.

its contextual and ever expanding based on our understanding of time and space.

the original question in reality can be answered simply by acknowledging that there is no answer. Only a continuation of creation.

Thus the comedy/tragedy of existence.

One must choose and forgive ones self for never having made the "right" choice. :confused: :o :love:

:)

[Hervé]

All that the answer to Molyneux's question show is that there's no apriory correlation between touch recognition of a cube or ball and the visual of it. That is, it is an education.

Now, is the touch education holographic? Can a hologram ocuppy the same identical space of another hologram? The answer is yes! Hence, not much "touching" exclusion in the hologram universe...

[firstlook]

All that the answer to Molyneux's question show is that there's no apriory correlation between touch recognition of a cube or ball and the visual of it. That is, it is an education.

Indeed. The concept of Space or division.

Its what you fill it with that essentially defines the cause and effect in the first place. You cannot create the sphere and cube without understanding their structure somehow in the first place. The "Space" is the catalyst for education.

[Ross]

It is also proven (eye and brain specialists) that the "eye lense" from subsequent input signal (vision, what you think you are seeing) will adjust and allow the brain to "compute" and make sense of it...in this case, what the eye see's and what the brain computes, can be two different things, so the eye adjusts and this is unknown to person at the time. This illustrates that at times, what we think we "see" is not what we see at all...

Saw that on a "Human body" doco a whiles back...(OR DID i REALLY SEE IT?) haha...interesting to say the least.

Ross

[firstlook]

It is also proven (eye and brain specialists) that the "eye lense" from subsequent input signal (vision, what you think you are seeing) will adjust and allow the brain to "compute" and make sense of it...in this case, what the eye see's and what the brain computes, can be two different things, so the eye adjusts and this is unknown to person at the time. This illustrates that at times, what we think we "see" is not what we see at all...

Saw that on a "Human body" doco a whiles back...(OR DID i REALLY SEE IT?) haha...interesting to say the least.

Ross

So something is done different with the electricity once it moves past retina and photo receptors?

[Ross]

Think of it this way...if the brain cannot compute the reality, (vision being light, frequency) the eye(via the brain) recognises the conflict and adjusts so the brain can compute...Im only relaying what I saw...I am no expert and as the OP said
I am looking for some of you smart people...Im not so smart and possibly not helping in the discussion...:p

Ross

[Feren]

It is obvious that there is a set of things, a structure or program runing in your head. But it does not proove that there is a programmer or an architect besides yourself.

[firstlook]

Think of it this way...if the brain cannot compute the reality, (vision being light, frequency) the eye recognises the conflict and adjusts so the brain can compute...Im only relying what I saw...I am no expert and as the OP said
I am looking for some of you smart people...Im not so smart and possibly not helping in the discussion...:p

Ross

I think I understand the gist of what your relaying. So its almost like the eye plays its roll based on excepting the rules of light and frequency in all its range and reach, but is not capable itself in creating anything more then the basic rules...... I think.

Actually I understand but not quite. Based on my part. :)

still pretty amazing when you factor in and calculate the reaction time it takes to decipher or create the light image that reaches the eye.

my head hurts now.

[Ross]

I think I understand the gist of what your relaying. So its almost like the eye plays its roll based on excepting the rules of light and frequency in all its range and reach, but is not capable itself in creating anything more then the basic rules

From my understanding, it is saying that the brain is not capable of excepting what the eye is relaying...in otherwords, what you think you see, via the brain can be different to what the eye actually see's.

[Hervé]

Yep! I agree, non-sequitur logic is a tough universe to handle!

[firstlook]

Yep! I agree, non-sequitur logic is a tough universe to handle!

:)


From my understanding, it is saying that the brain is not capable of excepting what the eye is relaying...in otherwords, what you think you see, via the brain can be different to what the eye actually see's.

So it means that the brain requires less information then the eye correlates?

thats interesting.

[jorr lundstrom]

There are some rules one can ponder over in spare time, if there exist something

like sparetime. LMAO


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FoNaddmPJnI&feature=related

[Adem]

I think you are right. You have been doing the same thing everyday just like the rest of us when THEY say stop (red Light) you stop. when THEY say go you go. They created the system the rules. You must work for a living or you starve. you cant steal for food the system will stop you. they dont want us to open our minds. I Think we are just like sheep just following each other being brain washed.

[firstlook]

I think you are right. You have been doing the same thing everyday just like the rest of us when THEY say stop (red Light) you stop. when THEY say go you go. They created the system the rules. You must work for a living or you starve. you cant steal for food the system will stop you. they dont want us to open our minds. I Think we are just like sheep just following each other being brain washed.

the issue is knowing what you want. DO you want to stop because they say so, or, because you dont want to t-bone some old lady.

Its a give and take. Sometimes they want to make you think that everything you do is because they say so, when in reality its because you want to.

Its a balancing act that they try to get a reaction out of your choices. The best formula is to know thy self.

Thus supporting Feren's post (#12).

[Adem]

ok Does anyone believe in religion Think all religion is A Hoax, The way I see it is that if there was no religion the world would go crazy because there would be nothing to say do this and you will go to heaven and do this and you will go to hell I think religion is Control. To scare people to do the right thing. and the Devil THERE IS NO DEVIL we are the devil. Devil is just something to blame so we dont blame ourselves. If someone has done something wrong dont say oh it was the devil it was YOU.

¤=[Post Update]=¤

I stop because I must. if i go against the system I will not survive.

[jorr lundstrom]

Floating around in a samadi-tank with no sensation of the body its easy to embrace

the idea of an illusory universe. But getting a hard kick on the balls I find it quite hard

to embrace the same idea. :sad:

[bilko]

It is obvious that there is a set of things, a structure or program runing in your head. But it does not proove that there is a programmer or an architect besides yourself.
This reminds me of a book i read called - Conversations with God by Donald Neal Walsh.
God says that he/she knew what life is/was down to the minutest detail ( that program in our head ) but because God was all that was he/she had no reference point from which to actually experience itself, to know itself.

So, God split into two or more bits thus creating all that was NOT which is called space. Time was born instantaneously as a result of the distance between the split parts of God.
God, because of its fragmentation now had different reference points from which to view itself and know itself.

God wanted to experience life as opposed to just know and so brought forth all the elements to fill the space from one of its parts and sent forth another of its parts in the form of souls to report back what life was like.

Whether that is true or not doesn't concern me. What is interesting is that i am still struggling to find any certainty in the universe that relates to me. Death awaits and i shall go and file my report lol but until my brain releases the chemicals associated with fear, pain, love, i feel detached.

Are we the only ones who wonder what they are, who do not follow the program or rules? Does a caterpillar, dolphin, rock, tree wonder? Question? Is instinct mistaken for programming albeit more complex?

Is this uncertainty another suggestion that we have infact been placed into the game, onto the board to make our own moves?
I'm just thinking out aloud.
I thank you all for your wonderful comments and shall finish reading the thread.:)

[Feren]

I stop because I must. if i go against the system I will not survive.
If we all go against the system it will not survive.

[phimonic]

ok Does anyone believe in religion Think all religion is A Hoax, The way I see it is that if there was no religion the world would go crazy because there would be nothing to say do this and you will go to heaven and do this and you will go to hell I think religion is Control. To scare people to do the right thing. and the Devil THERE IS NO DEVIL we are the devil. Devil is just something to blame so we dont blame ourselves.

well, look for the true translation of 'satan' - which means nothing more or less than 'opponent' - so yes if you are an opponent, you are the devil.
i do not believe in any religion, i simply do not know, but i know, there are many positive aspects and messages delivered within them ancient books. definitely many truths within. to truly believe is knowing i think. if you believe, but you're not sure, then you don't know, and it might stop you from searching.
maybe there is no such thing as red or green, but these are things, that we accepted as knowledge in the very early stages of our lives, so since we know - it is. we create the reality, we desire to live.
i think this is the reason, why we are so easy to manipulate. with all their science blah,blah they convince us accepting their reality as knowledge, while spiritual things tend to be a matter of believe, which makes them vulnerable to doubts. and doubts don't help manifesting reality.

if we just knew that we are one.

i mean these are just thoughts of mine, so please tell me if you think this is BS, i'm always trying to be open for a different view.

-----


"Religion is the opium of the people" - karl marx

[Lord Sidious]

ok Does anyone believe in religion Think all religion is A Hoax, The way I see it is that if there was no religion the world would go crazy because there would be nothing to say do this and you will go to heaven and do this and you will go to hell I think religion is Control. To scare people to do the right thing. and the Devil THERE IS NO DEVIL we are the devil. Devil is just something to blame so we dont blame ourselves.

well, look for the true translation of 'satan' - which means nothing more or less than 'opponent' - so yes if you are an opponent, you are the devil.
i do not believe in any religion, i simply do not know, but i know, there are many positive aspects and messages delivered within them ancient books. definitely many truths within. to truly believe is knowing i think. if you believe, but you're not sure, then you don't know, and it might stop you from searching.
maybe there is no such thing as red or green, but these are things, that we accepted as knowledge in the very early stages of our lives, so since we know - it is. we create the reality, we desire to live.
i think this is the reason, why we are so easy to manipulate. with all their science blah,blah they convince us accepting their reality as knowledge, while spiritual things tend to be a matter of believe, which makes them vulnerable to doubts. and doubts don't help manifesting reality.

if we just knew that we are one.

i mean these are just thoughts of mine, so please tell me if you think this is BS, i'm always trying to be open for a different view.

-----


"Religion is the opium of the people" - karl marx

Whilst I agree with all you say, that dirtbag marx wanted to replace the opium of the masses with the crack of the masses, both addictive, both ultimately fatal.

[phimonic]

what i found very interesting, and think should be discussed here. (maybe other thread, or not appropriate here at all?) i have no experience with this and don't want to promote illegalized substances, but this is something else, i think, since each of us has this substance inside.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y-AkDqT6S1Q

[SKAWF]

i've often wondered that, about colours.
lets say you're colour blind...
how would you know?, you could look at a strawberry and you've already learned that strawberries are red,
so even if one is colour blind, would they not just term the colour that they actually do percieve, as being red?
would they know they were colour blind, if they never got thier eyes tested?

with regards to the universe being organised, yes it is. here is a quote.....

'Nature about us uses the language of symbolism for the unfoldment of the potential of all its creations.
the mysteries of life do not explain themselves or issue any dogmatic statement about their ways or workings' (Manly palmer hall (sages & seers)).

ive been trying to get across that the mind we have, is a psychological implant. its not natural to us.
we should be using pictures, not words and numbers.
for a start, when one looks at something, it is what it is. no more or less, and you can see it.
but words can have multiple meanings.
you could be sat in a room with people who are having a conversation, and you could listen to every word they say,
but there is te possibilty that the conversation you THINK they are having,
might not be the one they are ACTUALLY having. its all about the 'meaning' of the words.
would there be any doubt at all, if you were all looking at the same picture?, i say not.

also you could have someone who reads loads of books, but doesnt bother to explore the world they are in.

if they did.......

they would find at the heart of everything, a pattern.

a spiral.

look at the shape of the universe, what is it?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=05Io6lop3mk

in this vid, you can see that when energy passes through light matter, it arranges the particles into a pattern.
this is also the case with the universe.
which is why one can see, if one looks, the same repeating spiral pattern in all sorts of places.

thats my view.

steve

[SKAWF]

I stop because I must. if i go against the system I will not survive.
If we all go against the system it will not survive.

maybe if just one person goes against the system, it wouldnt notice.
but the perception in your mind, that you wouldnt survive, is your own creation.
that is a measure of the power the mind has over the being, if you let it.
how many souls are subservient to the mind..........
it should be the other way around.

[Mad Hatter]

looking for some of you smart people
Disqualifies me but I can chew gum while walking so I'm arrogant enough to pitch my tuppence worth in anyway...:p


We know that there is no direct connection between the outside world and the brain.
How are we sure of that? As a yet still developing, but to my mind, not unreasonable explanation of what is, field theory would seem to come closest to accomodating what has been percieved to date. Thus everything exists as perturbations within that field. Hence the 'no direct connection' is an example of having been educated to think that way...


So red light knows it has to be red?
I am struggling with the correlation i made but i boils down to this.
Each thing has been programmed. A leaf knows it is a leaf and not a stone. Red knows it is red and not green or a tree.

There are rules, a foundation and structure has been set. Each thing that we encounter in this universe has a job to do, a role to perform.
If it turns out that despite science currently playing with the concept of EM and forces of varying strengths it is eventually discovered the field is consciousness then rather than having been programmed the red light consciously knows it's a red light and behaves accordingly...

I first heard this proposed by John Dobson otherwise known as the sidewalk astronomer. :cool:


This, for some reason got me thinking about computer programs ( of which i know very little ) but as i looked around, present in the now i got the feeling i was interacting not with a happenstance, and accident but a deliberate design. A structure or program laid out for us.
Being the left brained control freak that I am it is no wonder that I ended up working with computers. Albeit I've only played with the binary ones, but I know my head would explode if I had to attempt coding in trinary!!

If on the other hand one accepts your hypothesis then whomever wrote the program would have to exist outside the parameters of our concept of infinity.


As with so any things, i think the truth is right in front of our eyes.

Perhaps the whole thing is an open source project with each of us adding to the whole..

cheers

[Roseheart]

Great thread. Excellent vibe here thanks to all.
My two cents.
We are told red is red and green is green.
We are told from the day we're born what reality is. It's programmed into us by our parents first, then school and the deed is done.
I've been thinking on this myself in the last few days.
Our imagination is trained to 'see' in a certain way.
The brain interprets what we see as identifiable via this programming.
If we are co-creators of our reality and our imagination is trained to exist in a box then, we are controlled in the most basic way imaginable.
We are trained and lead around like pets.
This got me thinking... What if there was no genetic manipulation in the past by alien species?
I just read an article saying that the Nag Hamadi (sp) texts (which are apparently the oldest actual books with pages ever discovered) state that there were attempts to genetically alter us but they failed... The great hoax perpetrated has been to make us think we've been manipulated... That the Archons (reptilians or whatever) are actually not half as bloody powerful as we're lead to believe. Their great gift is making us think things.
I think if you control the imagination of the people then, well you control everything.

[Mad Hatter]

I think if you control the imagination of the people then, well you control everything.
Doesn't that have some conotations!! (Considering everything you can touch that is man made started out life in someones imagination...)

[ViralSpiral]

Great info in this thread, and a great question Bilko.
How strange must the world look from "behind the eyes" of my neighbour who is colourblind. Traffic light colours "look the same"
He says he has developed "extra-sensory" perception, in following the masses ;)

(fortunately he has a fashionista wife, who dresses him)

[Roseheart]

I think if you control the imagination of the people then, well you control everything.
Doesn't that have some conotations!! (Considering everything you can touch that is man made started out life in someones imagination...)

Tell me about it! My mind has been boggled all day...
If our imaginations are only as big as the reality in which we're trained to believe is possible then, what possible reality could we dream up if we can get our heads around the fact that there are no limits? What if this whole genetic manipulation scenario is one big giant hoax? For people like us it would be the greatest time waster possible...
Here we are thinking we're the walking wounded who can't function to our fullest when all the time we just thought we were this way... Maybe we don't use our brain to its fullest capacity because we just think we can't because we've been told we don't... It's bloody clever...

[phimonic]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IC5Zl_TqvW0

[phimonic]

Proof that the universe is an organized illusion ? - radio,newspapers, and TVs - everyday another story _need more proof?
is it a program, or is it not?

[araucaria]

Bilko, please, whatever you do, don't listen to Lord Sidious philosophizing with traffic cops at 3 in the morning, you just stop at those red lights OK, and have intersting thoughts that way!
If you see the univese as a hologram, then obviously the brain is going to be a part of that - otherwise you are into the man cut off from nature paradigm.
Colour-coding is more than just language as a convention. Colours are defined in relation to things in the outside world. Green is the colour of grass, blue of a clear sky, yellow of the sun, and red the colour of blood say. Colour-blind people will have their own tricks to relate to this system, eg red is the colour of the traffic light at the top (or at the bottom in your case), etc.
This is all material stuff that science can deal with. That is what science is about. The brain is part of that. It is when you get into the immaterial that science is beyond its remit and out of its depth. Consciousness, as opposed to the brain, is something that science is having trouble with.