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sjkted
16th April 2011, 03:21
I certainly hope not to step on anyone's toes, but could someone tell me what happened to shiva?

--sjkted

Icecold
16th April 2011, 03:31
No, but I'd be interested in an explanation.

Lily de Cuir
16th April 2011, 03:33
Hi sjkted,

They may be on 'vacation'. There was a bit of a stoush yesterday and the other poster said they were going to report them for stalking and negative remarks. I think it was 'shiva777', not shiva.

Cheers,
Lily

sjkted
16th April 2011, 03:36
shiva777 just posted and had his posts removed. Now he can't even receive pms.

--sjkted

¤=[Post Update]=¤


Hi sjkted,

They may be on 'vacation'. There was a bit of a stoush yesterday and the other poster said they were going to report them for stalking and negative remarks. I think it was 'shiva777', not shiva.

Cheers,
Lily

Do you mean vacation as a euphemism or are you saying he just picked up his bags and went on a holiday?

--sjkted

Lily de Cuir
16th April 2011, 03:38
shiva777 just posted and had his posts removed. Now he can't even receive pms.

--sjkted

¤=[Post Update]=¤


Hi sjkted,

They may be on 'vacation'. There was a bit of a stoush yesterday and the other poster said they were going to report them for stalking and negative remarks. I think it was 'shiva777', not shiva.

Cheers,
Lily

Do you mean vacation as a euphemism or are you saying he just picked up his bags and went on a holiday?

--sjkted

Lol...no, I mean banned for a week.

Lily

sjkted
16th April 2011, 03:46
Could a mod confirm what happened? It's not good to have people just disappearing...

--sjkted

¤=[Post Update]=¤

Was he at least read his Miranda rights and given the right of habeas corpus?

--sjkted

loveandgratitude
16th April 2011, 03:48
Shiva 777 in on line right now...you can find him hanging out at Darla'a post in spirituality

sjkted
16th April 2011, 03:56
But, his profile says he is now retired (in the last few hours) and he is unable to receive PMs.

--sjkted

sjkted
19th April 2011, 03:27
For those who care:

I have heard from shiva777 and he was banned by Bill from the forum and his messages were deleted along with mine.

He is now active on Nexus2012 with the screen name Krystic.

Shame on all the mods for allowing this to go unanswered. This forum is hemorrhaging it's best members, while most do not know and other stand by idly.

--sjkted

firstlook
19th April 2011, 03:44
I found Shiva777 pretty intelligent. He also seemed attached though. If anything, I think we all come here to detach from ourselves, as hard and odd as that may sound.

Was there a incident where he allowed his attachment to insult someone? If so, I do believe that we should allow some forgiveness, but only if the individual is able to show some humility. This is a complicated process.

Sometimes I wish I was a Mod and would like to test my ability to make people appreciate different opinions. But then I realize I am still pretty new at discovering exactly how I want to express everything that I dont know while still contributing to this forum.

I think its best to forgive those who are banned and forgive those who banned them. That way, you simply let the fear of doing something wrong disappear from both the members and the MOD's.

IMO. :)

sjkted
19th April 2011, 03:48
Shiva777 did not insult "somebody". He questioned Bill's thinking on one of his threads.

--sjkted

firstlook
19th April 2011, 03:50
Shiva777 did not insult "somebody". He questioned Bill's thinking on one of his threads.

--sjkted

Can you point me to the thread and post?

Thanks :)

sjkted
19th April 2011, 03:52
No, as I said it was deleted as well as my posts.

This was the thread:

http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?18497-Bill-Inelia-experimental-seminar-Sacramento-CA-Saturday-30-April&p=198749&highlight=sacramento#post198749

--sjkted

Isthatso
19th April 2011, 03:54
For those who care:

I have heard from shiva777 and he was banned by Bill from the forum and his messages were deleted along with mine.

He is now active on Nexus2012 with the screen name Krystic.

Shame on all the mods for allowing this to go unanswered. This forum is hemorrhaging it's best members, while most do not know and other stand by idly.

--sjkted

'Hemorrhaging it's best members' - that might be a bit inconsiderate to the hundreds of others that enjoy this forum..

Some people will change, some will be on many forums....it's the nature of the beast.

Warm wishes..

firstlook
19th April 2011, 03:55
So what was Shiva777's question and your posts about?

sjkted
19th April 2011, 03:58
I certainly meant no disrespect to current members. But, there is the issue of the members who built the forum into something a decent number of people would want to visit. And, these people are being pushed out and there is certainly a lot going on behind the scenes.

--sjkted

¤=[Post Update]=¤


So what was Shiva777's question and your posts about?

Shiva777 questioned Bill's thinking on being "taken" by the Charles material and I was questioning his interests in privately banning a solid member and then refusing to admit he was the one who banned shiva777.

--sjkted

firstlook
19th April 2011, 04:06
[/COLOR]
So what was Shiva777's question and your posts about?

Shiva777 questioned Bill's thinking on being "taken" by the Charles material and I was questioning his interests in privately banning a solid member and then refusing to admit he was the one who banned shiva777.

--sjkted

Sounds like you guys were being demanding. Possibly passive aggressive. "refusing to admit" is like saying he deserves to be interrogated. Despite many peoples beliefs, No one here has to answer anything. You either take their word or you dont. This removes "blame" and resentment which is not good for both parties.

IMO. :)

I mean that with all do respect. People shouldnt be in forums where they argue with one another.

sjkted
19th April 2011, 04:09
I'm not sure demanding would be the right word. Dissenting maybe. Questioning, definitely. But I just don't get that this was deserving of a private ban considering that shiva777 merely said what many of us (soon to be banned or already quit) were already thinking. This is not my idea of what Avalon is with a trusted leader or otherwise.

--sjkted

firstlook
19th April 2011, 04:12
I just realized I have no real opinion on the matter since it doesn't involve me.:peep:

I just wish everyone the best and hope they find where they need to be.

:)

Isthatso
19th April 2011, 04:24
I understand where you're coming from, however what purpose do these types of statements serve??

"shiva777 merely said what many of us (soon to be banned or already quit) were thinking".

It's all quite dramatic and I'm sure could be dealt with by pm to a moderator..

I agree with firstlook.

Peace and warm wishes to all

sjkted
19th April 2011, 04:27
When you look at all the turnover, how can you say it is dramatic? I mean, how many moderators are there here who have been on the forum more than four months? When practically all of the mods leave and many of the old time members who built the place up jump ship, it is dramatic.

For the above reason, it is not something that can be dealt with by PM to a moderator.

--sjkted

sjkted
19th April 2011, 04:33
Another example:

http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?18345-View-of-human-family-tree-material-given-by-charles-to-bill-back-in-2010/page23

These same words have been echoed over and over and over again.

--sjkted

DoubleHelix
19th April 2011, 04:37
How you guys over on Nexus 2012 continually bad mouth Bill, and other Avalon forum members is an absolute disgrace!

Sure there was a divide and many left.. but for those who are active members on both forums and continually talk ill of Avalon, its Founder, Mods and members - Shame on you!

It wont take much for a Mod here to do a simple search on Nexus 2012 and discover who such members are - once found I hope there shown the door!

Avalon's not a place of pettiness, backstabbing and disrespect!

sjkted
19th April 2011, 04:42
How you guys over on Nexus 2012 continually bad mouth Bill, and other Avalon forum members is an absolute disgrace!

Sure there was a divide and many left.. but for those who are active members on both forums and continually talk ill of Avalon, its Founder, Mods and members - Shame on you!

It wont take much for a Mod here to do a simple search on Nexus 2012 and discover who such members are - once found I hope there shown the door!

Avalon's not a place of pettiness, backstabbing and disrespect!

Actually, I think you would be surprised how most of the former members have spoken well of Bill and that there was a difference of opinion. On that forum, I have seen many people give first hand accounts of what happened on this forum, but I have not seen any badmouthing of Bill/Kerry or any other members.

--sjkted

Isthatso
19th April 2011, 04:47
How you guys over on Nexus 2012 continually bad mouth Bill, and other Avalon forum members is an absolute disgrace!

Sure there was a divide and many left.. but for those who are active members on both forums and continually talk ill of Avalon, its Founder, Mods and members - Shame on you!

It wont take much for a Mod here to do a simple search on Nexus 2012 and discover who such members are - once found I hope there shown the door!

Avalon's not a place of pettiness, backstabbing and disrespect!

Actually, I think you would be surprised how most of the former members have spoken well of Bill and that there was a difference of opinion. On that forum, I have seen many people give first hand accounts of what happened on this forum, but I have not seen any badmouthing of Bill/Kerry or any other members.

--sjkted



I really should have never taken the bait....my bad

I'm out.

Peace.

sjkted
19th April 2011, 04:50
Well, it is a public forum. Can you provide any links to contradict what I'm saying? ROFLMFAO

--sjkted

DoubleHelix
19th April 2011, 04:50
Actually, I think you would be surprised how most of the former members have spoken well of Bill and that there was a difference of opinion. On that forum, I have seen many people give first hand accounts of what happened on this forum, but I have not seen any badmouthing of Bill/Kerry or any other members.

--sjkted

Well this was just one of a few that I viewed that grabbed my attention.. some prominent members may have some explaining to do!

Really guys theres just no need for it.

http://nexus.2012info.ca/forum/showthread.php?1371-Bill-Ryan-From-Interviewer-to-Guru

3optic
19th April 2011, 05:38
How you guys over on Nexus 2012 continually bad mouth Bill, and other Avalon forum members is an absolute disgrace!

Sure there was a divide and many left.. but for those who are active members on both forums and continually talk ill of Avalon, its Founder, Mods and members - Shame on you!

It wont take much for a Mod here to do a simple search on Nexus 2012 and discover who such members are - once found I hope there shown the door!

Avalon's not a place of pettiness, backstabbing and disrespect!

Hi DoubleHelix

More accurately, "how some of you guys..."

I'd say most members refrain from condemnation. I can't speak for those who do nor can I speculate on their motives. If I were personally offended by the material being posted, I'd simply discreetly leave and seek greener pastures. However, if the circumstances warranted, I might have a word if I felt it necessary (this is rare). The behavior here and at nexus2012 is mild in comparison to the vast majority of forums.

As Bill likes to quote, "Be the change you want to see in the world"

For those in the dark, Shiva777 has told me he was permanently banned and can be found posting in the nexus2012 forum under the name "Krystic"

Tuza
19th April 2011, 05:38
How you guys over on Nexus 2012 continually bad mouth Bill, and other Avalon forum members is an absolute disgrace!

Sure there was a divide and many left.. but for those who are active members on both forums and continually talk ill of Avalon, its Founder, Mods and members - Shame on you!

It wont take much for a Mod here to do a simple search on Nexus 2012 and discover who such members are - once found I hope there shown the door!

Avalon's not a place of pettiness, backstabbing and disrespect!

Hang on a minute DoubleHelix, just wait a sec. The truth we expect, or closest I would say honesty, and what I can see is that we have been compartmentalized here as well. Members have only been told what deemed necessary at the time and that is all. A lot of members went overboard with their trust in Charles and got shafted big time and dont say no they didn't, because they bloody well did Bill.

And there have been a few other half truths as well, I have figured it out but I wont open my mouth, just lets say BR the truth outs in the end okay, no matter how you get around it, it just does.

Members are pissed off and angry about a lot of things and so they bloody well should be and all over what has transpired wasting their valuable resources and time re: Charles et al.

I give credit where it is due and discredit when it is due.

They have got the right over at the other forum to say what they want and I can understand why their not happy and angry.

firstlook
19th April 2011, 05:49
A lot of members went overboard with their trust in Charles and got shafted big time and dont say no they didn't, because they bloody well did.

Hello Tuza,

I think this is an interesting point to examine. But I dont wish to assume anything off the bat. If you want, could you elaborate more on what you mean by people giving too much trust?

Thanks :)

Tuza
19th April 2011, 06:01
A lot of members went overboard with their trust in Charles and got shafted big time and dont say no they didn't, because they bloody well did.

Hello Tuza,

I think this is an interesting point to examine. But I dont wish to assume anything off the bat. If you want, could you elaborate more on what you mean by people giving too much trust?

Thanks :)

Since the whole Charles saga started with the interview back in January members were geared up to believe that this person was someone to be believed or have their trust placed in, right or wrong?..............people trust Bill and what he says so they put their trust in Charles.

And what happened, waiting around for bloody weeks waiting for some sort of statement on anything from Charles to do with information finally being given.

And that whole saga went on for ages wasting people's time and then the realisation that this information was not going to be released oh and wait Charles might not be who he is.

I saw some agendas being played out and I dont want to go into them because I am old and tired and I know you old souls in young bodies can work them out yourself, if you couldnt you wouldnt have found your way here.

As far as a few of the good people on Nexus, they have been my friends since the inception of the original PA and they are from overseas, I love and respect them and I wont have anything said about them. They are upset and angry and they have a right to vent.

Ross
19th April 2011, 06:05
Actually, I think you would be surprised how most of the former members have spoken well of Bill and that there was a difference of opinion. On that forum, I have seen many people give first hand accounts of what happened on this forum, but I have not seen any badmouthing of Bill/Kerry or any other members.

--sjkted

Well this was just one of a few that I viewed that grabbed my attention.. some prominent members may have some explaining to do!

Really guys theres just no need for it.

http://nexus.2012info.ca/forum/showthread.php?1371-Bill-Ryan-From-Interviewer-to-Guru

The link above you have provided is a general discussion of what the OP felt relevant to discuss.

The Mod team over at Nexus did discuss this thread and its potential with it becoming problematic. We watched as it was added to and were ready to engage if it became out of hand. There is one post there that I do personally feel is "below the belt" but in general it is a healthy discussion.

We at Nexus have been well aware of some, who feel it was/is necessary to discuss what "happened" at Avalon. We do have a "perspective" thread there which was a worthy avenue for those to discuss their perspectives. We have allowed "free speech" within the bounds of "keeping it as clean as possible". Mods have publically posted that Nexus is not to be a "bashing" place but felt it was also necessary to have this avenue for the healing process.

This was posted by Fred, a long serving member and Mod here at Avalon, a highly respected Man and one who always offers a wise perspective. This post was greatly appreciated by the Team at Nexus and many of its members. This the general view of the Team and the Membership:


You know, it is very difficult to build something, by tearing something else down.

Yes, I know nature does it all the time; but nature does it without malice.
Beyond nature, the universe takes great delight in giving you more of what annoys you. It's just that honest.

Meanwhile, we have built what we wanted to carry on with.

Our membership grows, at a better rate than we hoped.
We have one of the most comprehensive section on the tragedy in Japan, and what it means for the world, than I have seen on most of the forums I haunt.
There is more coming on this subject.
We have released our first interview, and have several more scheduled.
Several members have already begun sites that either branch off from ideas here, or will add to what is intended here. (Giving space to create these, and a place for people to meet, grow, and branch off seems a good start at healthy parenthood.)

Those of us who came here, began this site, did so as a continuation of ideas we could no longer practice elsewhere. If people have issues with that, I can't help it. The good faith effort was made to lay out this idea, and it was rejected. I can tell you that no one was happy about that; but we can't carry that along as we go... it doesn't help.

Thanks to everyone who has helped us with that. That help has been important. It has shown that you really can build something which becomes more than yourself, personally, and collectively. What a wonderful child to set loose upon the world.
Fred

Regards

Ross

loveandgratitude
19th April 2011, 06:27
Members are pissed off and angry about a lot of things and so they bloody well should be and all over what has transpired wasting their valuable resources and time re: Charles et al.

They have got the right over at the other forum to say what they want and I can understand why their not happy and angry.

REALITY CHECK -

The truth is that nobody forces you to think, feel, or behave a certain way.  While you may be ostracized by society or even punished if you don't follow certain rules, still nobody else can "make" you do or feel anything.  You are not a victim to people or circumstances.  This is not to say that you can control all situations, certainly you cannot.  But you alone are responsible for your thoughts, emotions, and actions in relation to that situation.  
If you chose to be sad because you feel a loss, that's fine - own it, don't blame someone else for it.
Do you really want to spend your life letting other people decide how you feel or how to think? Everyone has to use their own mind and make their own decisions about how you feel and what to decide about information.
Feelings are managed. I am not presuming to dictate that a person should feel a certain way in any particular situation. You are entitiled to feel whatever you want to feel,...happy, sad....mad and then to translate that to any action. But you are responsible for that feeling and that choice of action, and not entitled to blame others for it. No one can make you feel a certain way anymore than they can make you act a certain way.

Affirmation: I am responsible for my life and my choices and my thoughts.

I

firstlook
19th April 2011, 06:29
people trust Bill and what he says so they put their trust in Charles.

This is the area that I find is interesting. It is true that Bill put trust in Charles. Now I dont think this is a "right or wrong" thing. I think Bill found alot of truth in Charles words. I dont think he "wrong" for doing so.

Why?

Well, because Charles did speak alot of very obvious things. Alot of members reacted saying this information was obvious. But they didnt give Charles credit for just knowing these things. They put him in a area of not to be trusted until he presented something that wasn't known. Although this is the general consensus of the formula, I dont think it allows people to see these whistle blowers and insiders as people.

So we have an individual that I think Bill liked. I liked him as well. But does this mean that I trust him. What does trust mean? I simply either agree with the information or I dont.

What I see is a divide between people who "trust" him (agree with the information, generally) or dont "trust" him (disagree with the information, generally). I dont think Bill is responsible for this. I dont think that people should agree with something because Bill does.

But heres the kicker. Bill is not responsible for those who dont agree and for those who do agree. The issue is Not about Bill. Therefore you cannot blame him for others agreeing with him because its him.

Ya know?

This is what I dont get about the Guru thread over at Nexus. People are saying that Bill is making people believe this and that. It puts the Blame on someone that you "perceive" is creating a following. He is merely being himself in his own project and forum. He isn't making anyone do anything.

As easy as it is to Blame someone for others agreeing with him, the fact is your really just saying you dont agree with Bill. It doesn't mean you have to say that he is responsible for making other people disagree with you because all that is doing is saying you disagree with the people who agree with the person you disagree with. Just creates more and more divide.

:)

ViralSpiral
19th April 2011, 07:36
aaaahhh Fred, his "voice" will be sorely missed here ..... :(


I too valued the information brought to the table by Shiva777 who unfortunately at times, was rather condescending and caustic. There is absolutely no reason why one should not be able to question, when its done from a platform of respect.

We all have times when our buttons are pushed and we need to "express". Lets remember that we are all paddling in our little canoes as fast as we can and this place... like any school... has a headmaster.
The choice is: dignity or an extended vacation

DoubleHelix
19th April 2011, 09:03
The reason for my post earlier today was because you've got some members of both Avalon/Nexus who are posting in a disrespectful manner over on Nexus2012.

And then continuing to post and interact here on Avalon as if its all kosher. I Just hope they know there actions haven't gone unnoticed!

thanks :)

-DH.

Isostool
19th April 2011, 10:00
Actually, I think you would be surprised how most of the former members have spoken well of Bill and that there was a difference of opinion. On that forum, I have seen many people give first hand accounts of what happened on this forum, but I have not seen any badmouthing of Bill/Kerry or any other members.

--sjkted

Well this was just one of a few that I viewed that grabbed my attention.. some prominent members may have some explaining to do!

Really guys theres just no need for it.

http://nexus.2012info.ca/forum/showthread.php?1371-Bill-Ryan-From-Interviewer-to-Guru

Regardless of what has been discussed, or how, on Nexus or anywhere else, as far as I am aware members of Avalon have no obligation to either justify or explain anything they say or any opinion they may have, which has been posted outside the confines of Avalon forum, to anyone ON Avalon forum.

As far as I am able to ascertain, a member of Avalon may be banned or suspended for inappropriate behaviour conducted while on this forum either in post or pm, and may in this capacity be asked to explain themselves, if they so wish.

However, what a member does or says or thinks outside of the confines of Avalon, is their own business. And whatever interest a member of Avalon my have in what another member of Avalon may discuss outside of this forum's walls, I do not believe that an expectation of them to explain themselves to this forum is a just warrant.

Gaia
19th April 2011, 10:20
So have we heard from the mods yet ? Any comments on this ?

Ross
19th April 2011, 11:09
The reason for my post earlier today was because you've got some members of both Avalon/Nexus who are posting in a disrespectful manner over on Nexus2012.

And then continuing to post and interact here on Avalon as if its all kosher. I Just hope they know there actions haven't gone unnoticed!

thanks :)

-DH.


Off topic, sorry...

Isostool summed it up well.

Many members enjoy contributing to both forums, I being one of them. Some of these Members have been part of Avalon since its debut with a long history of participation and are valued members at both sites including several other forums.

Ross

Mad Hatter
19th April 2011, 11:43
Personally I just think it is a crying shame that all the effort here has been duplicated over there. What a waste of time and money. I loved the original PC for it's efforts at giving real whistleblowers a platform. This to my mind kept it centred on tangible issues within the world we inhabit.

Then the split (for whatever reason) resulted in Kerry doing her own thing which is cool but it drifted of into the more esoteric things thus I had hoped PA would maintain the balance but it too seems to be drifting into that direction. Now courtesy of Charles and co we have Nexus giving us yet another site giving yet another slant on all the same material...

I do trust that members of both sites will keep denizens here informed of anything NEW which Charles/Atticus/BMW may actually produce in future which I assume will be exclusively released on that nice new site (good effort Richard and the team).

Curiously after checking the site out I found this...

[Querying whois.cira.ca]
[whois.cira.ca]
Domain name: 2012info.ca
Domain status: registered
Creation date: 2008/05/04
Expiry date: 2011/05/04
Updated date: 2011/03/17
Registrar:
Name: Tucows.com Co.
Number: 156
Name servers:
ns1.netfirms.com
ns2.netfirms.com

Noting the creation date I wonder for how long Charles et al had this planned ??

Sorry for drifting OT

loveandgratitude
19th April 2011, 11:50
Blue Scholars - Loyalty

Listen to the whole song




http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PHDyPvF0KL8

Anchor
19th April 2011, 11:56
The simple fact is that this forum is being reshaped and has been in phases since PA1 ended and PA2 started. Some like it some don't.

If you don't like the way this forum is headed, explore the alternatives. Don't be a dick-head about it and get yourself banned. You don't have to post!

Quite honestly, IMO this forum is still a very good one - its just not the same forum it was 5 months ago or 12 months ago etc.

All levels of our lives are changing - every layer and if forums are part of your life - well they are included too.

Follow your hearts, everything will be fine.

John..

Roseheart
19th April 2011, 12:13
Just had a read of the particular thread over there regarding Bill turning himself into a guru... I was struck by the back stabbing I have to say. Someone even has a go at his hair and his hat for pity's sake.
I would never put Bill and guru in the same sentence personally so it struck me as all a bit silly really.
So what if he does a workshop charging $95? It doesn't seem like that much for a workshop to me... I don't get why that is such a big deal...
What popped into my head while I read it was... Maybe those having a bitch are just a little pissed off they were sucked in by Charles just as most of us were...
I got over my embarrassment (sp?) and moved on weeks ago... My ego, my stuff.

Snowbird
19th April 2011, 12:23
Could a mod confirm what happened? It's not good to have people just disappearing...

--sjkted

¤=[Post Update]=¤

Was he at least read his Miranda rights and given the right of habeas corpus?

--sjkted :thumb: :haha:

loveandgratitude
19th April 2011, 12:48
URBAN DICTIONARY -

Roseheart - you made me think just what is a backstabber so I consulted the Urban Dictionary -

Backstab - To betray a friend by doing something "behind their back" that would harm them in any way.

Backstabber - People who you think are friends but then they attempt in causing your downfall.

Backstabber - Someone who acts like your friend, pretends they care about you then purposely continues to carry out actions that they know hurt you

After visiting the Nexus site (link above) I was shocked and disturbed by many of Avalonian members venting negative comments at this site. It seems to be that any signs of backstabbing, gossiping, insulting people and power games are a sign of a very unhealthy organization.

Fred Steeves
19th April 2011, 13:29
Shiva777 did not insult "somebody". He questioned Bill's thinking on one of his threads.

--sjkted

I don't have a horse in this race, and don't really know what happened, but just wanted to quickly add something. I've seriously questioned Bill's judgement on a couple of different subjects. I don't think he liked it too much, but I'm still here, even though for a time I didn't give a s**t either way. I think the difference is in how the disagreement is presented, with respectful civility or just plain old rudeness.

Sometimes it's better just to let that sleeping dog lay that bothers you, let it go, and gravitate towards other more positive interests. We don't have to fight every battle that presents itself, especially amongst our own teammates, so to speak.

Cheers,
Fred S.

9eagle9
19th April 2011, 13:40
This occurs in most communities that are serious about being communities: Tensions that occur are not moderated. Moderation does nothing for resolving the actual problem its just moved elsewhere to simmer.

Tensions in serious communities are mediated.

Moderation vs mediation.

Bill Ryan
19th April 2011, 16:38
I understand where you're coming from, however what purpose do these types of statements serve??

"shiva777 merely said what many of us (soon to be banned or already quit) were thinking".

It's all quite dramatic and I'm sure could be dealt with by pm to a moderator..

I agree with firstlook.

Peace and warm wishes to all

Hi, All: I can answer easily. (Forgive me for the late reply. I've only just seen this thread.)

Shiva777, who always stated that he was a purveyor of truth and wisdom (a strong proponent of Ashayana Deane's work) was also always a critic of everything I said or did.

He was a well-known troll, cynic and and borderline-abusive skeptic, and was an acerbic thorn in the side of all the moderators for the last year. He had been temporarily banned a number of times (always by other mods, not me), but this did not temper his negative attitude.

On the announcement about the 30 April Sacramento seminar, where I had specifically asked for interest and questions (because we wanted to know who would might be there: we'd not invest $300 in a hotel room for the day and make plans if no-one was going to attend) - Shiva777 immediately posted saying why would anyone think that I had anything valuable to contribute at all when talking to people as I clearly didn't understand anything and was not a reliable source of information (etc etc etc etc).

That was enough for me. I retired him personally and permanently. He is not welcome here.

As Sepia said on one of her posts here:

http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?15984-Important-Update-on-Atticus&p=171274&viewfull=1#post171274


---

Some of the Members who posted here I wouldn't invite into my house.

(And do read her whole post. (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?15984-Important-Update-on-Atticus&p=171274&viewfull=1#post171274))

This is the point. If there's a member here who I would not invite into my own house for an interesting chat (with other members who are also invited into my own house), then they are out - or are not invited in.

This is one of the criteria all the moderators use when accepting new member applications.

This is not a public forum. It's a private party - as we have gently explained many times. There are many other places one can be on the internet to troll and be abusive and negative. If anyone wants to do that, then please go there instead.

:)

Rocky_Shorz
19th April 2011, 17:16
Bill, all of us appreciate what you are doing here keeping the Trolls out...

Project Avalon is a GEM of the internet... (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?18562-Project-Avalon-forum-is-a-Gem-of-the-internet%28IMHO%29&p=198971&viewfull=1#post198971)

Nyce555
19th April 2011, 17:22
I have to agree with Bill on this one. You don't always have to agree with one another, but being disrespectful is just not acceptable. My mom used to always say "if you don't have something nice to say, then don't say anything at all." A person can only take but some much sarcasm and disrespect.

Amenjo
19th April 2011, 17:25
Personally I just think it is a crying shame that all the effort here has been duplicated over there. What a waste of time and money. I loved the original PC for it's efforts at giving real whistleblowers a platform. This to my mind kept it centred on tangible issues within the world we inhabit.

Then the split (for whatever reason) resulted in Kerry doing her own thing which is cool but it drifted of into the more esoteric things thus I had hoped PA would maintain the balance but it too seems to be drifting into that direction. Now courtesy of Charles and co we have Nexus giving us yet another site giving yet another slant on all the same material...

I do trust that members of both sites will keep denizens here informed of anything NEW which Charles/Atticus/BMW may actually produce in future which I assume will be exclusively released on that nice new site (good effort Richard and the team).

Curiously after checking the site out I found this...

[Querying whois.cira.ca]
[whois.cira.ca]
Domain name: 2012info.ca
Domain status: registered
Creation date: 2008/05/04
Expiry date: 2011/05/04
Updated date: 2011/03/17
Registrar:
Name: Tucows.com Co.
Number: 156
Name servers:
ns1.netfirms.com
ns2.netfirms.com

Noting the creation date I wonder for how long Charles et al had this planned ??

Sorry for drifting OT

Hi Mad Hatter,

I think you have got a little mixed up about 2012info.ca this is Richards (ex Avalon MOD) website. Not the website that Atticus was proposing. That is why it was set up a while ago.

Hope that clears things up.

Love and Truth,

Amenjo

thunder24
19th April 2011, 20:34
Dang guys,

Get control of your emotions. What happened to ignoring posts that didn't resonate with you? Pointing out other perspectives is fine, but to argue is counter productive. Yes Avalon is changing, just like all of you and the rest of the world...birth pains are just that, painful. This things become negative vortexes that people are just getting sucked into. I thought We were bigger than that. Wuzup?
peace

Steve C
20th April 2011, 06:05
Hey Bill,
I just sent ya a pm,
Could you respond? Its an important 1.

Nasu
20th April 2011, 06:57
I found Shiva777 pretty intelligent. He also seemed attached though. If anything, I think we all come here to detach from ourselves, as hard and odd as that may sound.

Was there a incident where he allowed his attachment to insult someone? If so, I do believe that we should allow some forgiveness, but only if the individual is able to show some humility. This is a complicated process.

Sometimes I wish I was a Mod and would like to test my ability to make people appreciate different opinions. But then I realize I am still pretty new at discovering exactly how I want to express everything that I dont know while still contributing to this forum.

I think its best to forgive those who are banned and forgive those who banned them. That way, you simply let the fear of doing something wrong disappear from both the members and the MOD's.

IMO. :)

Well put firstlook. I am relatively new to Avalon, but have spent much time wandering its sprawling halls and interesting corners, my overall impression of the whole is a wonderfully diverse group of interconnected souls searching for answers. Sometimes we must question things, that is part of the process, part of our path to personal enlightenment. Somethings will be false, well meaning perhaps, but false nonetheless. Some things will be true but veiled inside something bad or hard to swallow. Some things will defy our understanding of reality and make us question our role in the wider picture. Some will be a combination of the three.

I am a big Bill fan and make no bones about it, chips down I ere on Bills side, not even knowing the whole story, a uniqueness of us humans is to have faith in those who we believe in. That being said, I feel sorry for shiva777 and sympathize with sjkted, but agree with firstlook. As a community of fellow searchers, fellow rebels, fellow dissenters and fellow freaks, I think we need to be more mindful of how we deal with our own differences of opinion, no matter how heated or insulting they may get. What is our communal mistake policy? Banishment? No matter the length of time, it seems counterproductive to our collective mission to reduce our numbers and would seem to ultimately lead to people being afraid of speaking their mind, especially if it goes against the overall stream of agreement.

To ere is only human, to forgive, is divine...N

Ross
20th April 2011, 07:57
I found Shiva777 pretty intelligent. He also seemed attached though. If anything, I think we all come here to detach from ourselves, as hard and odd as that may sound.

Was there a incident where he allowed his attachment to insult someone? If so, I do believe that we should allow some forgiveness, but only if the individual is able to show some humility. This is a complicated process.

Sometimes I wish I was a Mod and would like to test my ability to make people appreciate different opinions. But then I realize I am still pretty new at discovering exactly how I want to express everything that I dont know while still contributing to this forum.

I think its best to forgive those who are banned and forgive those who banned them. That way, you simply let the fear of doing something wrong disappear from both the members and the MOD's.

IMO. :)

Well put firstlook. I am relatively new to Avalon, but have spent much time wandering its sprawling halls and interesting corners, my overall impression of the whole is a wonderfully diverse group of interconnected souls searching for answers. Sometimes we must question things, that is part of the process, part of our path to personal enlightenment. Somethings will be false, well meaning perhaps, but false nonetheless. Some things will be true but veiled inside something bad or hard to swallow. Some things will defy our understanding of reality and make us question our role in the wider picture. Some will be a combination of the three.

I am a big Bill fan and make no bones about it, chips down I ere on Bills side, not even knowing the whole story, a uniqueness of us humans is to have faith in those who we believe in. That being said, I feel sorry for shiva777 and sympathize with sjkted, but agree with firstlook. As a community of fellow searchers, fellow rebels, fellow dissenters and fellow freaks, I think we need to be more mindful of how we deal with our own differences of opinion, no matter how heated or insulting they may get. What is our communal mistake policy? Banishment? No matter the length of time, it seems counterproductive to our collective mission to reduce our numbers and would seem to ultimately lead to people being afraid of speaking their mind, especially if it goes against the overall stream of agreement.

To ere is only human, to forgive, is divine...N

Excellent posts, to both of you, thank you.

Ross

The One
20th April 2011, 08:34
Could we all say GOOSE FRA BA three times and we will feel muh better.

Muzz
20th April 2011, 08:48
GOOSE FRA BA GOOSE FRA BA GOOSE FRA BA :)

Ahhhh. Thanks The One.

Been here a while and agree with John its still a great place to learn and grow.

Gaia
20th April 2011, 10:43
Really I'd love to see Avalon turn into a fantastic forum with loads of interesting, original threads, because that would be beneficial for everyone and then we attract people with the same frequency so that all together we can support each other.

Hope you don't mind Viking ?

http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?7839-My-last-post.

SEAM
20th April 2011, 12:51
I'm personally glad that Bill "is gently" calling out some of the trolls. I am also frankly surprised how many of the "Wannabe" trolls set up shop in {ad hominem attack removed} place, disparage everyone here, then come back here to dish out their "Peace, Love, Brother" routine. There is an unwritten law over there, that to gain acceptance you must dis Bill.

But the bottom line, is "Class and Integrity". You either have it or you don't. It's not a part time gig. I say throw them overboard - useless ballast.

Dorok
20th April 2011, 13:26
<snip>
There is an unwritten law over there, that to gain acceptance you must dis Bill.
<snip>


It looks like this is a 'dis-ing' of the whole membership of the Nexus forum, some of which have been repeatedly extolled as valuable losses to this forum. You can keep that kind of 'Class and Integrity'. Blanket statements are always false.

Isostool
20th April 2011, 15:39
I'm personally glad that Bill "is gently" calling out some of the trolls. I am also frankly surprised how many of the "Wannabe" trolls set up shop in "{ad hominem reference removed}" place, disparage everyone here, then come back here to dish out their "Peace, Love, Brother" routine. There is an unwritten law over there, that to gain acceptance you must dis Bill.

But the bottom line, is "Class and Integrity". You either have it or you don't. It's not a part time gig. I say throw them overboard - useless ballast.

A member of Avalon may be asked to leave Avalon because of behaviour ON Avalon, of an inappropriate measure in post or perhaps pm. To police the behaviour of members as they go about their business in other forums?... then how about policing them in their personal lives... and in their personal thoughts and beliefs.. so where exactly is it that those who advocate "throwing the useless ballast overboard" draw their line at classification of who this should be done to?

The only line which is relevant to exclusion/being banned on Avalon, as far as I can understand it, is where Avalon begins and ends. The line is in what you post here and how you behave here, not in the rest of a members personal life. "Class and integrity" understands that even if you do not like what another person says or does in their own space, place and time, they have the right to do it.

DoubleHelix
20th April 2011, 15:52
I fully understand what your saying Isostool.

But if someone wants to participate on various forums under the same name then they have to understand that they will be held accountable for there comments if there in a disrespectful manner - period.

Just because your on another forum it doesn't mean you have a free pass to act derogatory towards others! These are public forums and such actions will catch up with everyone in the long run!

:)

Isostool
20th April 2011, 17:19
I fully understand what your saying Isostool.

But if someone wants to participate on various forums under the same name then they have to understand that they will be held accountable for there comments if there in a disrespectful manner - period.

Just because your on another forum it doesn't mean you have a free pass to act derogatory towards others! These are public forums and such actions will catch up with everyone in the long run!

:)

I disagree. No, they do not have to understand that they will be held accountable, for whatever it is that you in relative terms, find disagreeable.

These members do not have to justify themselves or answer to those who would question them. What they do or say outside of Avalon is basically not Avalon's business, and I have no doubt that the inner mechanics of Avalon understands this perfectly; hence we only see that those who act inappropriately on site are banned for short periods or permanently. In other words, complaining about the behaviour of Avalon members outside of this forum is a futile activity: they do not have to answer to the accusations.

So a person has the choice to walk into another's space [and to keep doing so], open to the public it is, for example Nexus Forum. And then perhaps they dislike what is spoken of there. Then they complain that it is the responsibility of the people in the place they voluntarily enter to behave how it is that they find pleasing? This is about understanding boundaries, the free will of people and personal responsibility with some wisdom, and the allowance of other people's business to remain just that.

GoldenYears
20th April 2011, 18:37
I'm personally glad that Bill "is gently" calling out some of the trolls. I am also frankly surprised how many of the "Wannabe" trolls set up shop in "{removed reference to ad hominem}" place, disparage everyone here, then come back here to dish out their "Peace, Love, Brother" routine. There is an unwritten law over there, that to gain acceptance you must dis Bill.

But the bottom line, is "Class and Integrity". You either have it or you don't. It's not a part time gig. I say throw them overboard - useless ballast.


Im a member of both forums, and I have to say that personally I didnt join over there so I could "dis" Bill Ryan, and Im sure the same can be said of most members over there. Nobody had to jump thru hoops to join..no requirements....you're basically talking out your ass on that. Sounds like your "dissing" Richard and Celine though....how is that any different from what you are accusing us of?? As for "wannabe trolls"..think what you want...it's actually quite nice there.

Rocky_Shorz
20th April 2011, 18:52
too much is going on right now for distractions to mean anything...

everyone that has been involved with Avalon since the beginning are great people, but people naturally grow into groups separating from the original.

I get along with everyone present and past and hated seeing anyone leave, but also know why they had to...

It allows like minds to join each other in discussions without fighting each other.

Ross
20th April 2011, 22:10
I'm personally glad that Bill "is gently" calling out some of the trolls. I am also frankly surprised how many of the "Wannabe" trolls set up shop in "{removed reference to ad hominem}" place, disparage everyone here, then come back here to dish out their "Peace, Love, Brother" routine. There is an unwritten law over there, that to gain acceptance you must dis Bill.

But the bottom line, is "Class and Integrity". You either have it or you don't. It's not a part time gig. I say throw them overboard - useless ballast.

This comment deserves a reply:

Firstly, you are displaying exactly what you are complaining about. Dis-ing Bill. You refer to Richard as Dick and Celine as Gas...that my friend is a direct intentional provocation. Seems that is your point?.

I see you are a newish Members here. I will give you some facts. Richard has put more hours into this forum than I can count. His efforts, along with Bill, myself and all of the older Mods, have all contributed greatly, along with the long standing Membership to make this Forum what it is. Bill will be the first, and has done many times, to acknowledge the efforts of Richard and the Team for their long serving contribution.

There have been occasions where I have not agreed with Bill, Richard, Celine and others, but we still got the job done and until the end, an admirable effort done by all.

Celine is still the highest poster here, and the bulk of her posts are more than worthy, and on the most part, stand for what Avalon represents.

Sure things got out of hand towards the end and there are two sides to this story my friend. Both sides can argue the point, as to their perspectives of what went wrong and both sides can have grounds to do so. This is life, this is what can happen and it does.

Bill himself has made errors in judgment, as has Richard, Celine and myself, infact most everyone here and in life, in general, has done so.


disparage everyone here, then come back here to dish out their "Peace, Love, Brother" routine. There is an unwritten law over there, that to gain acceptance you must dis Bill.


Wildly incorrect statement, and one that I will correct.

I wrote this below, a few days back to make clear, to all, what we are endeavouring to do.
In regards to threads there.


The Mod team over at Nexus did discuss this thread (at Nexus) and its potential with it becoming problematic. We watched as it was added to and were ready to engage if it became out of hand. There is one post there that I do personally feel is "below the belt" but in general it is a healthy discussion.

We at Nexus have been well aware of some, who feel it was/is necessary to discuss what "happened" at Avalon. We do have a "perspective" thread there which was a worthy avenue for those to discuss their perspectives. We have allowed "free speech" within the bounds of "keeping it as clean as possible". Mods have publicly posted that Nexus is not to be a "bashing" place but felt it was also necessary to have this avenue for the healing process.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Below is posted by Fred, a long serving member and Mod here at Avalon, a highly respected Man and one who always offers a wise perspective. This post was greatly appreciated by the Team at Nexus and many of its members. This the general view of the Team and the Membership:



You know, it is very difficult to build something, by tearing something else down.

Yes, I know nature does it all the time; but nature does it without malice.
Beyond nature, the universe takes great delight in giving you more of what annoys you. It's just that honest.

Meanwhile, we have built what we wanted to carry on with.

Our membership grows, at a better rate than we hoped.
We have one of the most comprehensive sections on the tragedy in Japan, and what it means for the world, than I have seen on most of the forums I haunt.
There is more coming on this subject.
We have released our first interview, and have several more scheduled.
Several members have already begun sites that either branch off from ideas here, or will add to what is intended here. (Giving space to create these, and a place for people to meet, grow, and branch off seems a good start at healthy parenthood.)

Those of us who came here, began this site, and did so as a continuation of ideas we could no longer practice elsewhere. If people have issues with that, I can't help it. The good faith effort was made to lay out this idea, and it was rejected. I can tell you that no one was happy about that; but we can't carry that along as we go... it doesn't help.

Thanks to everyone who has helped us with that. That help has been important. It has shown that you really can build something which becomes more than yourself, personally, and collectively. What a wonderful child to set loose upon the world.
Fred

Now...all parties involved in the "moving on" (some were permently removed from Avalon) were all equally hurt along with Bill, after more than 2 years this is expected and emotions gather pace and can produce "reactive" behaviour" we all do it, including Bill.

Yes there are some disgruntled members (a few) who have displayed less than honourable posts, just as some here do...but on the most part the members of both forums offer wonderful contributions.

I believe that if all parties involved, were to sit together, over a cuppa, away from the forums, in each other’s energy, with "real" eye contact, much would be resolved.

All these people involved are inherently good folk, all have the ability to "fall from grace" as it were, we are Human beings with all the greatness and dis-function that goes with it.

Lastly:

Everyone involved with both Forums, and others, are all reading the same book, not always the same page, but all standing on the side of "trying to figure this mess of a world out"

The forum's can be a micro reflection (at times) of the chaotic world we all live within, We are all susceptible to Human behaviour that is not so lovely, but thats how it is. The lesson to understand is we are all connected, good bad and otherwise.

Regards

Ross

sjkted
21st April 2011, 02:10
To whichever mod reads my post first: please delete my account immediately. I want absolutely nothing to do with this forum any more.

--sjkted

Normalguy31
21st April 2011, 03:10
.

i think avalon has become somewhat nervous...maybe a bit too nervous..and when you have members who later become moderators say this:

"If Charles/Atticus gets heckled and taunted and inundated with mountains of wild questions that never get to the heart of the matter, and never has a real chance to let us know his ideas on effectively altering the course of events planned and in progress by the Ruling Elite, I will forever feel we squandered an opportunity. But, I'm going to let Bill, and the Mods, and Charles himself handle the hecklers, the naysayers, and the rude. (After Charles already hinted to us how he has dealt with targets in the past, if someone still insists on taunting him, well, don't be terribly surprised if your car gets repossessed, or your credit gets destroyed, or you're fighting the State for custody of your own children.)"

...you understand that there may be a case to be nervous...

no need to name names... it's representative of not just a person who wrote this...it's what i find ayway....:( l


.

How long are we going to do this he said she said nonsense? This statement, thank you lightblue, is bull****. Would someone like to explain to me what their definition of taunting would be?

I don't like the Charles material. I don't think its concise enough to get all upset about. So what?? What the hell do I know? It's just my opinion.

Is what I just said to be considered as taunting? Should I be worried about my POS car being gone in the morning? Is my credit score going to drop tomorrow because I have an opinion?

Bill I love your work, and always have. I feel like I need to say something about this though. I am making no slander against you, or PA. I am happy to be here, and have learned a great deal in the two months I have participated.


So have we heard from the mods yet ? Any comments on this ?
Please any comments?

modwiz
21st April 2011, 03:23
Clean nappies should be observed before posting.

"Wannabe" trolls, class and integrity, useless ballast.

Such gravitas.

A shout out to, Isostool, Dorok, Ross and Golden Years.

You know why.

Nasu
21st April 2011, 03:47
It is all just our nature it seems. Go Avalon, time to take to high ground, let them say what they like, sticks and stones, they have the "Charles", I hope they don't get burnt, I wish them well..This too shall pass... N

toothpick
21st April 2011, 03:54
Take it easy people. Slow down for a second.
Nobody can ever make everyone happy, never!
I,m sure that Bill and all the other Avalon volunteers have their plate full and work very hard with little or no thanks.
If you are getting one second of stress over this thread situation, please for your own health and well-being, take it easy, get over it and move on.
It is just a thread for Pete,s sake.

modwiz
21st April 2011, 04:24
It is all just our nature it seems. Go Avalon, time to take to high ground, let them say what they like, sticks and stones, they have the "Charles", I hope they don't get burnt, I wish them well..This too shall pass... N

They have the "Charles"?

Let's see, his last activity on a forum was here, on the 19th, a little more than 24 hours from this posting.

He has never posted on Nexus, ever! He is not even a listed member.

An interesting thing about names is the resonance they set up with our being and that even anagrams have affinity for the person.

Charles is a pseudonym bestowed upon him by Bill Ryan and will have considerably less vibrational relationship than one given or chosen , like a username.

loveandgratitude
21st April 2011, 04:40
FELLOW AVALONIANS..........
There is a THREAD devoted to THANKING BILL AND AVALON for being here and the work done by AVALON and all its members.
Better to go over there and give praise, gratitude for AVALON rather than being sucked into a very NEGATIVE VORTEX like this one.

Better to turn a NEGATIVE into a POSITIVE. Turn your back on the negatives and come on over to the positives. Your energy will change from anger at what has happend to joy at what is happening.

FELLOW AVALONIANS......this is a bit of a set-up for distraction. The old game plan going on -= DIVIDE AND RULE. We lets just unite and REJOICE that we have a place like AVALON, that thrives on love, compassion, wisdom. A place of learning from each other.

astrid
21st April 2011, 04:41
Wow you people waste so much energy!!

Small talk, gossip and dis-ing others is such a drain on one's energy.

Next time you catch yourself doing this, stop and notice the energy draining from your body.....

Utimately it's ALL about YOU and YOUR growth, EVERYTHING that u see, hear, feel and engage in,
are all learnings to assist you to rise in consciousness and really stand in your own power again.

If u are judging someone else it's actually all about you, and what u need to resolve within yourself.

The fastest way to overcome this is to turn the finger back onto yourself and ask,

"Do i also do this?"

The question is whether you seriously want to grown and learn, or to stay stuck and repeat your patterns over and over and over.

If someone pushes your buttons , its actually a gift in disguise, and an opportunity for you to make some BIG leaps in consciousness.

But this is simple, too simple for many to accept.

And we have all been so programmed to look outside ourselves for the problems.

How has that worked so far for you, how has it worked for the planet??

As for trusting people, and then turning out to be not what you had expected,

try trusting yourself more, and expecting to find the answers within.


Peace,

Astrid

Nasu
21st April 2011, 05:14
It is all just our nature it seems. Go Avalon, time to take to high ground, let them say what they like, sticks and stones, they have the "Charles", I hope they don't get burnt, I wish them well..This too shall pass... N

They have the "Charles"?

Let's see, his last activity on a forum was here, on the 19th, a little more than 24 hours from this posting.

He has never posted on Nexus, ever! He is not even a listed member.

An interesting thing about names is the resonance they set up with our being and that even anagrams have affinity for the person.

Charles is a pseudonym bestowed upon him by Bill Ryan and will have considerably less vibrational relationship than one given or chosen , like a username.

{ad hominem removed}

Thank you for the correction, my mistake, my meaning was less the person behind the mask and more the color and detail of the mask itself, much as you pointed out, I think. My point is merely for there to be peace in the valley, if we can create it, irrespective of opinion, we may be looking at different outcomes but ultimately we are all paddling the same canoe. N

mondaze
21st April 2011, 05:15
there is so much we have to contend with, so many areas of attack from the ptb, it takes all my time to keep abreast of developments. So why are we all so intent on this navel gazing and self-evisceration? Accept differences in others and move on. To concentrate on differences and try to force the issue is so ego-centric and simply counter productive.

Ross
21st April 2011, 05:38
Perhaps as a suggestion, this thread could be closed? The OP started this with the question of what happened to Shiva...this has now been answered and this thread has had its day:amen:

Ross

ThePythonicCow
21st April 2011, 06:37
Perhaps as a suggestion, this thread could be closed? The OP started this with the question of what happened to Shiva...this has now been answered and this thread has had its day:amen:

Ross

Good idea, Ross. The original poster has left - at their own request, and as you note their question has been answered.

This thread is closed.

Dennis Leahy
25th April 2011, 16:26
There was a valid point brought up by Ross of ad hominem attack in this thread - that was not dealt with quickly. I'll offer a personal apology for not catching this quickly, and now we have replies (some reasoned and wise, some not so wise) to those being re-quoted back. Being late to clean these up causes both the problem that they were left there in the first place and it is one of the things mods are asked to contain, and the problem that the replies quoting the ad hominem attacks can look like Swiss cheese after surgically removing chunks of words. But, I'm going to try to do my best anyway.

I see I am too late. Paul already closed the thread. But, I'm still going to go back - better late than never - and surgically remove the ad hominem attacks.

Thanks,

Dennis