The Ethics of Charging Money for Information, Guidance, or Teachings

[Whiskey_Mystic]

One topic that comes up often and can cause heated debate is the question of payment in exchange for teachings, spiritual assistance, or even journalistic services and practices. I know some of you are going to disagree with what I have to say, and I promise not to get all growly.

I saw Kerry take some heat months ago from some people for charging for a teleconference. Really? Kerry and Bill have given us hundreds of hours of priceless information as well as entertainment for free. Do we really need to complain if she needs to raise some money and is doing something other than simply begging for it? I say the shame is on her audience for forcing her into that position in the first place.

A few comments have been seen criticizing Bill and Inelia for charging money for upcoming seminars. Why? Should Graham Hancock publish all of his books for free? This is nonsense. I don't know what his situation is today, but a few months ago I know Bill was living out of a duffel bag with no aprtment to call home. I've been unemployed for two years and I have it better than that. It's not like Bill needs to expand his hookers and cocaine budget. Geez.

Let me try putting it this way, at least as far as spiritual teaching goes. A few hundred years ago a tribe would have had a shaman. Everyone in the village would support that shaman with a home, food, blankets. The shaman's needs were taken care of. The shaman therefore had time to guide and look after every person in the village as well as look after the needs of the group as a whole.

I have a formal spiritual teacher. I support her with money. Others do as well. By charging a particular rate for her help, she lets me know what her needs are. If I don't support her and she has to get a job, then she is no longer available to assist me and guide me. I don't have a teepee and a buffalo blanket and a monthly supply of corn. We have money now. Money is energy. It's chii. That's the world we live in.

Do you not trust the teacher to not be greedy and take more than is needed? Then that person should not be your teacher. Duh. Is the world full of spiritual charlatans? You bet it is. From the Vatican to the self-help book aisle. That does not take away the value of those with real help to provide.

And for some out there who say "everyone can just meditate and contact the divine for guidance", let's be real here. Few people can do that and even advanced practitioners have trouble sorting their guidance from the filters of their egos.

Some teachers DO hold down regular jobs (or their spouse does) and they can offer their services for free and choose to. That's great! Some eventually find that they can be even more effective by focusing on this kind of work full time. If it were that easy, we'd all be fully enlightened masters by now.

I actually had a yoga teacher tell me that she thought it was unethical for people to charge money for spiritual guidance. Really? Why did I just pay you for a yoga class again? From this point of view, food and massages should be free. Doctors, too! Even college should be free! Ultimatley, everything supports our spiritual growth and learning.

I'd love to live in a world where there is no money. I'd be happy with just a rice bowl, a blanket, one set of clean clothes, and a place to sit. Maybe a razor. We don't live in that world. Well, unless you are reading this from India. Which is precisely why Gurus in India have a less formal system of support. Spiritual adherents there are traditionally looked after by the populace. Used to be that way in China too, but not today I'm told

Bottom line- You ARE entitled to grow spiritually and have the knowledge of the cosmos. If you want to speed up that process, the person who helps you speed that up has to eat too. It's that simple.

Someone once told me, "People will willingly pay their prostitutes and their drug dealers before they pay their teachers". I think that is true for many people.

[Lost Soul]

It costs money to do what Bill and Kerry do. Neither are rich. Asking for money to cover their expenses is not immoral but practical if they are to bring these things together for us.

[Lord Sidious]

I see it this way.
Everyone is entitled to something for their time and effort.
There is a difference between what is fair and what is not, but that is all open to peoples own interpretation.
If you give people something for free, they take it for what it is worth, nothing.
In the universe there has to be an exchange of energies, it can't be all one way.
The situation has to be win - win.

[Whiskey_Mystic]

That's a very interesting angle to bring up, Sid. Some traditions do actually require an exchange of energy in their practice. I know many teachers that would love to teach for free if their needs could be met. Would that be ok? I know some traditions teach that the money exchange is necessary in order for the recipient to value the gift psychologically. I don't know if I agree, but I have seen people devalue what was offered for free. I guess it depends on the person.

I'm hoping in my next life that I am on a planet with no money and people trade clouds for what they need.

[Tahi]

The sooner a world of FREE ENERGY manifests the sooner we will all be able to do what we love/ think is important then I would say the Majority would be happy to give thier time freely.

Worrying about your next ,meal is important to some. I've been there not nice.

Check out Wade Frazier' thread about FE. Then dream... oh and allow a bit of time to go through his website as there is alot to read... well worth it.

http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?10672-WADE-FRAZIER-A-Healed-Planet

Wade's website: http://ahealedplanet.net/home.htm

[andrewgreen]

The whole world is so messed up, our would be shamans/gurus are working 9-5 and are too tired to help us and most people have other priorities for their money and small amount of free time.
This could even be a bigger reason than the money they get from oil why we don't have free energy because they don't want people evolving spiritually.

[TWINCANS]

RE: Lord's part-post " If you give people something for free, they take it for what it is worth, nothing."

IMHO another way to put it is: If you give people something for free, they assume it is worth nothing.

There seems to be a general agreement in this thread. Taking money (or any other form of give-and-take offering) for information is all about setting a high value on it. In the mind of the student, that is. The adept already knows how much was sacrificed to attain it.

[steve_a]

Hi Whiskey_Mystic,

I don't think that anybody has any qualms about paying for information, we all have probably done so in our lives, through comics for entertainment and newspapers for harder information.
If I buy the Guardian newspaper, it doesn't mean to say that I have to buy the Sun, just because they are putting information out there. Many people will read with great interest what Bill and Inelia will have to say and will be happy to part with money for it and others might not have the same interest and will not find it of great use.

When Michael Jackson was alive he sold millions of records, but how many people didn't buy his music? A lot more.

Have you ever given money to a busker (street musician)? Why? It's somebody you don't know, but for some reason or another you perceived value in what they were doing. Hundreds of people pass by and offer nothing, because for them there is not all that much interest at that point in time to put their hands in their pockets.

What I'm trying to get at is that when the reader, listener, viewer perceives value, not only in terms of information, entertainment and even personality, they will be quite happy to 'pay' for that vehicle. If they can't relate to what's being presented it does become a little more difficult to justify the "why".

Best regards,

Steve






One topic that comes up often and can cause heated debate is the question of payment in exchange for teachings, spiritual assistance, or even journalistic services and practices. I know some of you are going to disagree with what I have to say, and I promise not to get all growly.

I saw Kerry take some heat months ago from some people for charging for a teleconference. Really? Kerry and Bill have given us hundreds of hours of priceless information as well as entertainment for free. Do we really need to complain if she needs to raise some money and is doing something other than simply begging for it? I say the shame is on her audience for forcing her into that position in the first place.

A few comments have been seen criticizing Bill and Inelia for charging money for upcoming seminars. Why? Should Graham Hancock publish all of his books for free? This is nonsense. I don't know what his situation is today, but a few months ago I know Bill was living out of a duffel bag with no aprtment to call home. I've been unemployed for two years and I have it better than that. It's not like Bill needs to expand his hookers and cocaine budget. Geez.

Let me try putting it this way, at least as far as spiritual teaching goes. A few hundred years ago a tribe would have had a shaman. Everyone in the village would support that shaman with a home, food, blankets. The shaman's needs were taken care of. The shaman therefore had time to guide and look after every person in the village as well as look after the needs of the group as a whole.

I have a formal spiritual teacher. I support her with money. Others do as well. By charging a particular rate for her help, she lets me know what her needs are. If I don't support her and she has to get a job, then she is no longer available to assist me and guide me. I don't have a teepee and a buffalo blanket and a monthly supply of corn. We have money now. Money is energy. It's chii. That's the world we live in.

Do you not trust the teacher to not be greedy and take more than is needed? Then that person should not be your teacher. Duh. Is the world full of spiritual charlatans? You bet it is. From the Vatican to the self-help book aisle. That does not take away the value of those with real help to provide.

And for some out there who say "everyone can just meditate and contact the divine for guidance", let's be real here. Few people can do that and even advanced practitioners have trouble sorting their guidance from the filters of their egos.

Some teachers DO hold down regular jobs (or their spouse does) and they can offer their services for free and choose to. That's great! Some eventually find that they can be even more effective by focusing on this kind of work full time. If it were that easy, we'd all be fully enlightened masters by now.

I actually had a yoga teacher tell me that she thought it was unethical for people to charge money for spiritual guidance. Really? Why did I just pay you for a yoga class again? From this point of view, food and massages should be free. Doctors, too! Even college should be free! Ultimatley, everything supports our spiritual growth and learning.

I'd love to live in a world where there is no money. I'd be happy with just a rice bowl, a blanket, one set of clean clothes, and a place to sit. Maybe a razor. We don't live in that world. Well, unless you are reading this from India. Which is precisely why Gurus in India have a less formal system of support. Spiritual adherents there are traditionally looked after by the populace. Used to be that way in China too, but not today I'm told

Bottom line- You ARE entitled to grow spiritually and have the knowledge of the cosmos. If you want to speed up that process, the person who helps you speed that up has to eat too. It's that simple.

Someone once told me, "People will willingly pay their prostitutes and their drug dealers before they pay their teachers". I think that is true for many people.

[greybeard]

I dont have the slightest problem with anyone paying for any seminar, workshop on any subject, etc

People of their own free will chose to do this.
Different strokes for different folks.

I remember Eckhart tolle saying "When I gave free talks I had on average twenty people come, now there is a charge, the average is 3.000"
I have paid to go to three of his seminar including a weekend retreat at Finhorn, money well spent in my opinion.
I know that Eckhart takes no interest in the management or money making of his work.
Money or status is of no concern to him.

Bill hosts this forum free, for which I have great gratitude, people have a choice to donate if they wish.

If he and his friend make a profit from the up coming seminar -- I m happy for them.

Many here share information, that cost them money to acquire, for free.

We have all done work for money, thats the way this world is.

Respect for all points of view

Chris

[Alexandrian]

This could even be a bigger reason than the money they get from oil why we don't have free energy because they don't want people evolving spiritually.

I'm pretty sure that has everything to do with it.

[Davidallany]

Ethics are different from culture to culture, from person to person. The perceived importance of the teachings and informations and so forth and who is the student also plays an important rule in charging money or gold or gems and so forth for it. Some information are widely available,but guidance may be hard to find for them, others are hidden, let alone finding a guide or a teacher for them. Personally I have never charged anything for giving general teachings. Scarcity of knowledge is what gives rise to opportunistics. Special instructions are different, and are priceless, for instance deep spiritual teachings.

[9eagle9]

Let me try putting it this way, at least as far as spiritual teaching goes. A few hundred years ago a tribe would have had a shaman. Everyone in the village would support that shaman with a home, food, blankets. The shaman's needs were taken care of. The shaman therefore had time to guide and look after every person in the village as well as look after the needs of the group as a whole.

This is it exactly. White people ( as we refer to them--they can be any color though) don't support their medicine people in a collective way. They forget that part and remember the part where the medicine person offered all services for free though. Not really but it appears that way to the person who is outside looking in. The church also has influenced that attitude. Going to church is free, right? Not really if one is compelled to tithe. And most clergy are paid salaries. And they receive stipends for funerals and marriages from the family.

Also they question the medicine person. "You're not charging very much you must not be any good." Tribal people simply didn't do that, question the medicine person's ability based on their fee. That was bizarre beyond reckoning as if money has something to do with ability. Or they question about a fee being too high and everything should be for free because one is doing 'God's Work."

Or as I say, I"m not doing God's work, I'm doing MY Work. If I were doing God's work, none of us would be here now. The ability is a given, I'm charging for my time and to replace what is depleted from me.

Not to mention . 25 years of education, my own money spent. I spend hours a day when I could be earning learning and studying for the people I'm are going to treat. Unseen expenses. Massage tables, oils, study, books, manuals, etc etc etc. Hours spent in meditation and ritual. You can literally work 24 hours a day if one regarded it as work, its more like investment. People are just not educated as to what is occuring here on the other side of the fence. I may have spent an hour with a client but I've spent 25 plus years preparing to see them.

The attitude number one comes from OTHER spiritual teachers who smugly insist that God supports them so they can work for free. . Actually its usually their wealthy husband that supports them. That is a result of THEIR ego trip. I've asked to send me evidence where God has sent checks from heaven for their office space and printer cartridges. They are STILL supported its just not direct support from clientele. This is the dark side of spirituality. Trust me you, there is MORE ego in spiritual schisms, more competition and more professional envy and scamming on this side of the unconventional spirituality than there is anyplace else. Next time you go to a psychic fair tune in a little bit and step back and you will see what I mean. They are all throwing **** at each other on an energetic level.

Ever wonder why medicine people can be reclusive. That's why. Public appearances are like listening to an piss match all day between other 'healers'.

A person who questions my fee is going to get a question back. If you don't think you are worth X amount of dollars then chances are we have a deeper underlying condition here. People who want for free have some issues going on that simply giving to them for free is going to exacerbate. Self value issues or Victim issues. I'm not perpetrating your issues and taking them unto myself. That's my self value at work. I can't instill lessons of self value in others if I'm not practicing it myself.

A spiritualist who thinks there should be no exchange is operating under as much ego influence as the one who gouges and extorts for money.

There are also those who think you should work TWO jobs. One to support yourself and the other so you do your spiritual work. Two jobs, one unpaid. I just fling it back and say," Would you do that?" Oh sure they would until the reality of the situation sets in and you realize that the first job drains you to the extent you are too tired to perform your actual purpose. Being a medicine person is just that. A state of being. We are not cut out for time clock punching in the first place if we have gotten our spirituality straight. NONE of us should be and I'm not setting a very good example of telling people we are not designed to be slaves when I am a slave to a system myself. My state of being is what I want to share, my state of existence where people don't see me working and buying into a system. I have to walk the talk.

The clientele themselves. A REALLY good medicine person doesn't have to DO anything to effect a process of healing. But the clientele want the feathers, the bells and oils out and you waving your hands in the air. The ego needs it. Once the ego gets in the process you may as well forget it. Those oils cost big money even if you make them yourselves. So it goes beyond not only NOT paying the medicine person the medicine person is supposed to dig into their resources and hand it over to the client as well.

The reality of a medicine person's life is not a nine to five one where one punches in and pushes paper around. You are chest deep in emotional trauma, wounds, abuse, anger, addiction, helplessness and things that are not of 3d perception like negative entities. I You live in a different reality and its draining in a way that the common person will never know. That's bad enough on its own but nothing compared to the damage other healers try to inflict on you in the name of Lite Working. Then you are also working against the professional envy factor . Most of the spiritual gurus here are so busy deconstructing the reputations of others that I'm not sure when they have time to do anything else.

Working by donation typically ends up meaning you are working for free. Working on set fee means you are a gouger. My detractors think I'm rolling in dough but I make a average living. They think I'm gouging simply because they're philosophy in life hasn't supported them. I make a GOOD living for a medicine person, but much of my living comes from manifestation not money. My spiritual being-ness in practice. I don't live in 5000 square foot house because i'm wealthy, this is where I was placed to do the most good, its manifested not money. There's not many people who can manifest a home of this size, on acreage in the wood for 400 a month. I did that, not money. That is not economics but manifestation but it appears that I'm quite wealthy when you don't delve beneath the surface: I don't own anything I have. I don't have to own anything to have everything.

A healer has to take their self value into consideration too and that means having a material existence that is comfortable for them. You don't do your job to the best of your ability if you are sleeping on the floor. The mainstream thinks that we should be okay without material things but they certainly aren't willing to forgo them.

Finally I got it right though. It was adjusting my own internal values. I post a high fee to keep away people who would waste my time and their money. I ask all other people "How much do you want to pay me. And pay me what you want to pay me.'

Until you learn how to do it you get jobbered all over. I've made very low fees and decided to work on a volume basis which is exhausting. I've worked by donation and have been paid a thousand dolllars one time and then nothing forever after --cause you draw in the people who think by donation means 'free' if you don't get your own internal mind and heartset right.

An exchange of energy is necessary whether its barter or money. I take lots of barter but I'm sorry my landlord doesn't take Mary Kay cosmetics in lieu of rent. I'm not going to take what I don't need and the mainstream can't offer me what I need because I need medicine people things. IF someone offered me a ton of hay for or several pounds of cut thyme, then hey I'm all for it. But they can't. And they don't want to, they do what is most easy for them. Money. No one would come to see me if my fee where a deer skull or something of that nature. They aren't medicine people they can't pay what a medicine person needs. Even simple honor stipends like a pouch of tobacco becomes difficult for them because they think tobacco is morally wrong and dangerous.

The lady who arranges the local sweat around here charges for a price of a rock. She has not yet recieved one ....she gets money and all sorts of stuff but she needs the damn rocks to have the sweat!

I take people on apprenticeships for teaching. They don't have to pay anything they have to 'do' things. They don't want to do those things. That tells me they don't want to be medicine people, they want what they don't want, because when you are a medicine person you are DOING all the time even when you are not with clients. You are ALWAYS a medicine person. But conversely its not what you do, its a state of being and people who are not in the being of a medicine person can't understand it. This is why this is so hard. Its not a conventional lifestyle, you aren't subject to the rules of common 3d perception but you have to live among those who do.

I've had people pull into my drive in a BMW and state that they need to see me but just bought 20 grand worth of furniture so they can't pay me. I say 'you will pay me' you are the people who are supporting my people who CAN"T pay at all.

When they say I have no right to make that determination,' you can't make me support others' I correct them. I most certainly have the authority to make that determination, that is what makes a medicine person the self authority to make those sorts of assesments. If we played the rules of the civlians well hell...we won't be offering anything at all. They have the choice of not doing what is correct and they can leave and go find some smug ego that will perpetrate their mindset.

So our exchange rate is not just for spirituality but in all parts of life. CURRENCY is a flow, a current that moves between people. When you look under the surface its not just about money. The person that is a psychic whore that hops between psychics paying abundantly to all simply to hear what they want to be told upsets the flow too. The psychic that accepts money and perpetrates that flow upsets the apple cart too. I don't care how much they pay me, I don't want to see them. I don't want money from people who want to be entertained, I'm not an entertainer.

[greybeard]

In agreement with 9eagle9

It cost me about ten thousand pounds over the years to qualify in the various disciples. from Hypnotherapy to Bi-energy and on.
And as much again going to India to learn from spiritual sages.
They did not charge but the cost of getting there.
In some genuine cases I did not charge clients and never anyone from AA , thats a personal energy exchange.

I normally expected people to take three sessions, I found that those with money were not keen to commit to three.
I found that those who got it for free were not so likely to benefit.
Those in AA always benefited -- they had a good healthy attitude.

I am also a retired semi pro bass guitarist and I didn't play for free.

Anyway thats my experience.

Chris

[9eagle9]

I Love those AA people. They know how to do their work and taught me ALOT about doing my own.

[greybeard]

I Love those AA people. They know how to do their work and taught me ALOT about doing my own.

you might not believe but when I do go to an AA meeting its laughter all the way once we get over the more serious bit.
When you start recovering from Alcoholism all of a sudden you dont take minor things too seriously.
I can find humor in almost any situation and I laugh at me a lot. -- Silly man that I am
I dont take the me seriously at all.

I know you get that 9eagle9

I enjoy your posts

Regards Chris

[Peace of Mind]

Good deeds never go unnoticed, those that stuggle just need to reflect...simple as that.
If you give you shall receive, Give beauty receive it, give hopelessness you'll receive it.

There are probably more ways to make a living then there are excuses not to. Charging a fee for something that may be essential to the well being of the masses is down right scandalous, imo. I hesitate to say that much information giving here (or the NET) is probably not worth it because much of it is inconclusive and probably can be more damaging to the truth seeking movement. People want to know exactly what they spend their hard earn money on. Anyone can make up stories that have no evidence of truth….since when did speculations become valuable enough to warrant a fee?

Volunteering donations seem more appropriate.

Peace

[K626]

Buddha and Jesus are kicking themselves now man. :p

love

K

[Chicodoodoo]

I'd love to live in a world where there is no money.

I think most of us would, if we really think about it. Most of the ills in the world can be traced directly back to the pursuit of individual profit at the expense of the common good. It's hurting us badly and preventing our maturation as a species.

Do we accept this or do we change this?

On the one hand, we have to accept it, as this is the world we are born into. But doing so condemns humanity to a future no different than our recent past, which is filled with war, genocide, deception, and ignorance.

On the other hand, we have the power to be the change we wish to see in the world. It is not the easy way out, but the right way rarely is. It is a conundrum when we need money to survive individually while the pursuit of money is killing us collectively.

Each of us needs to weigh the question and consider our options. Few of us actually do.

[K626]

I'd love to live in a world where there is no money.

I think most of us would, if we really think about it. Most of the ills in the world can be traced directly back to the pursuit of individual profit at the expense of the common good. It's hurting us badly and preventing our maturation as a species.

Do we accept this or do we change this?

On the one hand, we have to accept it, as this is the world we are born into. But doing so condemns humanity to a future no different than our recent past, which is filled with war, genocide, deception, and ignorance.

On the other hand, we have the power to be the change we wish to see in the world. It is not the easy way out, but the right way rarely is. It is a conundrum when we need money to survive individually while the pursuit of money is killing us collectively.

Each of us needs to weigh the question and consider our options. Few of us actually do.

Money isn't actually external to us at all, it is just another form that carries our energy and sometimes our desires. When in for instance I had a perceived need for money it came to me very easily and that was only because my focus had harmonised with ways of getting it...It is no longer my main focus so I don't attract it so easiy now. Good thing too.

There IS value in what Bill and Inelia (although I don't know much about her) are offerring and if THAT VALUE AND ENERGY attracts money it will...It is a law unto itself.

Peace

K

[Seikou-Kishi]

Before any question of ethics, people have to deal with the question of pragmatics. If Person A is a guru and Person B is a farmer, Person B might consider it unjust or contradictory for Person A to charge for his advice and teaching, but Person A needs to eat, yet wouldn't presume to say that his need to eat entitled him to take crops from Person B's farm to satisfy his needs. In the scenario in which Person B wants something but doesn't want to exchange something he has to match the value of what he is getting, he is being unfair. It's quid pro quo; you can't get the quid without give the quo.

A guru may teach somebody who has nothing for free, and a farmer may give somebody food who has nothing with which to pay for it. In both cases, the guru/farmer is deciding of his own will and because of his own compassion to forgo what he is due. Only he can choose to forgo what he is due. A relevant question here is: what good is my spiritual teacher if he allows me to hold such an arrogant sense of entitlement?

[9eagle9]

Because REAL medicine people offer reality. If they are REAL and authentic there's nothing else they could offer.

Because the nasty little reality isn't about scandals and fees. The nasty little reality is there are a great deal of well intentioned people out there who figure the intention makes the healer.
It doesn't. Dozens of psychic s and healers abound but they aren't. Because they can't offer anything real. The nasty reality of the situation is that ALOT of medicine people don't accept anything because they KNOW they really aren't authentic. So they have enough conscious intent not to go there at some level by not charging people and project their own uncertainty onto those who may actually be authentic. Its a way of rationalizing their own self doubt. THAT is THE nasty reality of a situation. And the reality of the situation is those who are real see right away through those who are not yet operating in authenticity.

I never had any intention of being a healer, I didn't need one. It's not necessary. Healers don't know how to ACT like healers because no ACTING is required. But Actors are the first place people will go to lay down their cash.

Most people don't even know what they want so how do they know what they are spending their hard earned money on in the first place? Do they want an act or do you want something real.

A woman insisted I break a curse for her last week. Her curse was 'water retention'. I broke her course. 'Curse breaking' herbs in a gallon of water everyday for three days. Who is the fraud here? I would feel like one but for the reality of the situation. I offered something real to her, she wanted a fable. I can't educate her so ...what do you do? She was willing to lay down the cashola for that though.

I challenge all people who are on this path to offer money back guarantees. When you are working in the reality of situation that's an easy thing to do.

[Koyaanisqatsi]

How about a University education? That costs a great deal, and in some cases people are worse off after they graduate with a brain loaded full of silly B.S..........compounded by the fact they are "educated", none are more or boxed in.

[Whiskey_Mystic]

I have paid to go to three of his seminar including a weekend retreat at Finhorn, money well spent in my opinion.

Oh, I am very jealous, Chris. I am a fan of Tolle. Many Rinpoches tried to teach me what he did effortlessly. So, here we have someone who can save me time. I hope to meet him in person one day as you did.

[Whiskey_Mystic]

Wonderful posts, guys.

My teacher does take care of certain people for free, me included when times warrent it. She knows that when I am flush again, I will reciprocate. I'm good for it. This is an individual determination that she makes and is based on assessing the sincerity of the student and their willingness to grow. So many peope pay her and then never follow her guidance. Those who are willing to really do the work internally and willing to change, those people are good investments for the harmony of the world.

I used to visit a medicine woman in San Luis Obispo. I'd drive six hours to participate in her sweats. She never charged or expected payment and we would all sleep in her house and cook together. I was always broke then. Her husband was a doctor and she needed for nothing. But, in retrospect I think she felt guilty for having so much when so many Native Americans had so little. She used to tell me how embarrassed she was to drive her nice SUV onto the rez. in retrospect, I wish I had tried to offer her more as a show of respect for the work that was being done and the spirits who came to help. I could have done some work for my local community in her name, for example.

Conversely, when I met one of my earliest teachers, I was making about 90k per year. I told this teacher that I didn't want to commit to working with her and paying her fee. She lowered her fee to entice me. In retrospect, I think this was unethical. It was a seduction and did not respect that I wasn't willing to value the work. This woman also disrespected her own work in my opinion.

Great thread, guys. Thank you. Differing voices please feel welcome to post. I haven't seen the opinions I've mentioned on Avalon as much as other places, but I know they are out there. Maybe you have a new perspective to teach me as well.

-Whiskey

[Jake]

An important topic, Whiskey Mystic. (I fancy myself a bit of a Bourbon Mystic.) There are different schools of thought regarding wether or not someone should charge for spiritual teachings or insights. I myself am split over the issue. For instance,,, I would gladly pay Eckhart Tolle for a lecture or seminar, same with Bill and Inelia. I feel that they are genuine, and have a lot to offer me and my quest. However, I would NEVER pay someone like,,, say,,, Steven Greer, for 'ambassador training'. I think that is absurd. Obviously others do not. Perhaps they think the same about Toll and Ryan and Benz. I tend to stay away from folks who charge money, right off the top. BUT I have paid for spiritual 'courses' and 'workshops'. I guess it depends.

It is not so much about paying people that I support. It is more a judgement call on those who DO charge for their time and efforts. I, myself, have written a book about spiritual matters. I would feel silly ever charging anyone for it. But that is just me. I do not disrespect those who do. Perhaps one day, I will get sick of living in poverty, and sell my next book. For now, the fulfillment that I get from those who thank me for my book, is working out better for me than cash... On a one to one basis, I do not think that I will ever charge any money for any information or advice. But on a world stage, that seems quite impossible. It is a personal decision for the individual charging, and the individual who is paying. Hopefully folks don't get discredited too much for charging for their input. It will depend on the message, of course.

[Whiskey_Mystic]

Healers don't know how to ACT like healers because no ACTING is required. But Actors are the first place people will go to lay down their cash.

This is a really good point. I live in an area where you can't throw a rock without hitting a psychotherapist. Now, don't get me wrong. I strongly believe that good psychotherapists are precious resources just as good medicine people are. But I also believe that most psychotherapists are't very good. Having attended a school that churns out MFT's, I believe that most psychotherapists didn't become psychotherapists in order to DO psychotherapy. Rather, they chose that path for reasons of self image. It's more of a lifestyle choice for them. I believe I can spot these people because they wear the costume of flowing linens and speak in a false way of pretend enlightenment and serenity. But you can see their unaddressed garbage that they have bypassed in themselves just under the surface because they have chosen an inauthentic path. People with real wisdom and serenity don't pretend to be more zen than thou. You know what I mean?

[An Cailleach]

Thanks for the thread whiskey. It's a topic that badly needed discussing..

[MariaDine]

If one pays a cleanning lady by the hour, why shouldn't you pay the spiritual guidance or healing, who also work by the hour ?!

One pays their time...the time they spend doing something for You.

The exchange is always energetic and «intentional».

Even if you don't pay in money, one should «pay» with something else, for exemple, a pound of rice, a book, or an hour of your own time when you «do something» for that person.

Namasté

[Peace of Mind]

Knowledge/truth should never come with a price tag because it benifits everyone when used properly.

When you pay for something, most times, you know if it’s official or not. Would you want to pay for anything that will have its authenticity questioned? For instance: I buy movies when I want to be amused by Science fiction, and unproven material…. it’s agreeable. But, if I’m researching for facts, but only come across conjecture, why should I pay for it? If you give me something of true value I’ll have no problem accommodating your efforts. The world is filled with con artist looking to get paid on others gulliblity, I'm surely glad that this place isn't like that...

Peace

[NancyV]

I've gone back and forth in my opinion on people charging for spiritual guidance and even healing services. It's been valuable to read the different opinions here and it's helping to clarify how I feel about it. Money is needed to live for most people. If they choose a path that is their true calling, such as spiritual counselor, healer or teacher, they have to make money to pay bills. It would be unrealistic for me to say they shouldn't charge money to work at their chosen vocation or calling.

In the past I was influenced more by the reality that many people who charge money for these services are often compromised due to the fact that they need the money and they need more clients. This need can influence them to do things and/or say things that may not be in the best interests of their client or student but it is in their best interests of making money. Sometimes they can even fool themselves into thinking something is best for the client, but it is truly best for them. We do so love to justify all our actions.

Of course this happens in many businesses where you want to retain customers. You must give the customer what you think they want in order to retain their business. I have several former close friends who are or were spiritual counselors. To their clients they would tell one story and to me they would tell another story ABOUT the clients or students. I was so turned off by what seemed to me like completely two faced and unethical behavior that it influenced me in my opinion that charging for spiritual counseling compromises the counselor.

One friend would even tell me his students/clients personal problems and laugh at how stupid they were! I found that to be outrageous! This man was in his 60's and was a kung fu master. We had property next door to his kung fu center in a remote valley in Oregon and took 3 classes a week. He and I turned out to be close friends until he confided too much to me and I told him that he was a fraud and unethical to charge people $100 an hour for his counseling then use their pain as fodder for his humor.

He wasn't the only one. 3 of my lady friends who were channelers, counselors and therapists did basically similar things. They wouldn't make fun of their clients but they did have to compromise what they said in order to retain a sufficient number of clients so they could make enough money. Usually I ended up counseling them about their conflicted feelings! LOL.. One friend in particular often complained to me that she had to keep her clients thinking that they needed her even if they would have been fine on their own or even if she couldn't stand talking with them and felt drained afterwards.

Perhaps this type of situation is more prevalent in spiritual counseling. But I believe that mainstream doctors and alternative type healers can often fall prey to self interest becoming more important than actual healing because of a need to keep money flowing into the coffers. Certainly we know that a lot of mainstream doctors will prescribe tests that really aren't necessary for the patient, if not to make more money then often to cover their backsides from possible lawsuits.

One obvious ridiculous encounter I had with a doctor was when I was taking care of my sister who was close to death with early onset alzheimers. My sister's doctor told me that she needed a pap smear. I said absolutely not! She's dying! Why the heck would she need a pap smear!! LOL... The doctor said that it was her responsibility to make sure that she didn't have cervical cancer and the test was covered by her insurance so why not? This was obviously ludicrous. I flatly refused so we were dropped as her patients. No big loss. My sister died only a few months later.

The easiest thing for me to do is to not automatically accept what anyone says about anything since self interest seems to almost always play a role in how anyone with a vested interest in selling their product or services will present themselves or their information to you. Human interactions are always complex and only we can decide for ourselves if we value or trust something or someone, and we often make incorrect or less than optimum decisions. This is a valuable part of the learning process and as we have more experiences hopefully we become wiser in our decision making.

I would like to see Avalon become a subscription website. Many websites charge a fee for participation and I don't think it's at all unreasonable. This would solve the problem of occasionally having to ask for donations. I haven't seen many websites charge less than $3 a month. Most good ones charge more. Perhaps if Avalon were to charge either $3 a month or $30 paid for a year, that would be very reasonable. There could even be exceptions for those who could not afford it or perhaps people would want to sponsor some members who could not afford anything at all. Begging for donations is a hard thing to do and it's easy for us members to forget to donate.

So I am no longer negative about charging money as a fee for Information, guidance, teachings, healing, participation in a good forum, etc. I do think fees should be kept affordable, although an individual who is providing information, healing or counseling services has the right to set their own fees and we have a right to pay or not to pay, to participate or not to participate. The ethical challenges will always be there when an exchange of money or energy is present and many will be unethical. That's pretty normal for us humans.

Nancy :)

[9eagle9]

So ...you've identified the problem....Now .... Your solution? How do people support themselves who devote themselves to knowledge sharing. The best possible solution where there is no loss of integrity.

[Whiskey_Mystic]

Nancy, the kinds of things you are describing are widespread and horrible ethical violations. Even just the breaches of confidence were bad enough. This is why the thread on Integrity has my interest. I've seen so many predators and exploitive con artists, many with credentials of different sorts. Some of them world famous. I've seen it so much that I have a chip on my shoulder and huge mistrust until I get to know someone when I learn that they are a healer, energy worker, therapist, etc.

I really like it when people offer a sample of their services for free, like Mel Fabregas does with his radio show, but even this approach can be used to "hook" people and play on their psychological dependencies. I had a roommate who was a phone psychic. She did this for a living. Making people dependent on her was more important than empowering them. Some of them clearly needed psychiatric help, but she refused to refer them out because she wanted their money.

My own teacher has several revenue streams, such as teaching Chi Gung and clearing properties. This makes her less dependent on any one person so she can be more objective to their true needs without getting clouded by her own. However, not everyone can do this.

[Chicodoodoo]

I would like to see Avalon become a subscription website.

Not me. Money has a way of corrupting everything. We need to move away from that model, not embrace it. Within a properly functioning family (remember those?), no family member pays for the services of another. Everyone is cared for and supported out of love and responsibility. That is the model we need to embrace. That is the natural model, and we're losing it step by step. The communication that occurs in this forum serves many different members in many different ways. The controllers of the world would love for us to assign monetary value to that communication and use their currency tools to buy and sell it. Everything measured in money is essentially their property, and they know it. To allow Avalon to fall into their clutches would be a great disservice to us all.

[Whiskey_Mystic]

I don't think money corrupts. I think that money exposes corruption that already exists. Money is just a form of energy. It flows without any intention of its own.

[ulli]

This world is one of endless spectrums, and choices.
Life is about the art of negociacion.
You get what you pay for.

I was in the clothing industry and got into the habit of being a scavenger.
I love second-hand shops, always lucky when I go,
and often come out with Ralph Lauren sheets that have heardly been used and pay 5 bucks.
I save an incredible amount of money by not shopping at the malls.

On the other hand will pay more for a bottle of good wine, or good quality hair products.
it makes no sense, as it's part of a gradual development of habits.

When it comes to charging for a chart reading, I'm inexpensive in Costa Rica ($25)
but charge more in Barbados ($75) and even then it depends on what someone can afford.

if I hadn't had independent income I would have starved to death by now,
because of all the people out there who don't want to pay for these services,
yet they are really curious about self discovery.

There must be a conspiracy out there somewhere that spreads this ludicrous idea
that consciousness services should be offered free of charge,
yet when it comes to realtors or attorneys charging 5% on a house deal... not a whisper,
even if they end up getting $1000 per hour.

[Arrowwind]

You should give freely from your heart what you are compelled to give freely. If your heart says you need to charge money then charge. There is hardly any spiritual teaching on the planet that has to be paid for if you seek it out. Always an energy exhange must happen to receive a teaching... but it may not be money or anything tangible. The karma you get is the karma you create. The world changes when you move into dharma.

[TWINCANS]

There's a disconnect everyone intuitively feels between money and spiritual truth. I've always looked at it as another frequency thing. Didn't the zionist babylonian annunaki types introduce it? Can't be for the common good then. And who controls the flow of it? Doesn't flow like a river down to the lake and then the sea and then back up into the air and then down from heaven then grow on trees and you get the idea. It stops in their d.... dams.

Money is definitely in the lowest rung of the ladder - it's designed to keep everyone in fear of survival and living from the lower frequencies of greed, power etc.

Where attention goes, energy flows. Those who focus on the highest frequency attainments aren't putting themselves in that low frequency money flow zone.

(Re: The Frequency Problem is with currency based on the Supply&Demand Ransom System. If an alternate 'currency' could be adopted with its design based on service points, as in 'value of service provided', then the flow would be based on a higher frequency exchange. Service in this case could mean an item or good that would be valued on its ability to serve anothers' needs. So items made in alignment to the earth would obviously have higher value than one full of dangerous chemicals etc. Or food that comes from the richest soil vs agribusiness-grown. Or medicinal remedies that support the body's own healing ability and not fight against it etc. etc. The service points would be debated and agreed on an ongoing basis.)

[9eagle9]

My litmus test is a prayer.

Can't pay? You can pray? Say a prayer for me.

Oh sure great they'll pray for me.

Run into them a week later and ask them how that prayer went and they get that deer in the headlight's look. Or angry. "You have no right to question if I prayed for you. "

(this is victimese for " I didn't pray for you.")

Well yeah. It's MY Prayer. Sure I do. That was your form of payment to me, right? It's mine.

Nope this isn't about money. It's about people.

Money is a meaningless system of credit that we create daily. It's ours. And we let it get into the wrong hands by our ignorance and fear of it.

This is what cracks me up. Four threads over there's a discussion about how money isn't real.There is NO real money. We KNOW this. WE talk about it daily. NO REAL MONEY.

So here are talking about something that isn't real but determining its evil....?


Or good. It its not real how the hell can it be evil. Or good. Or anything but what it is. Meaningless. If my right hand can create a line of credit (fiat money) then the next logical progression is that my mind (which is smarter than my right hand) can create it just as well. Then...you create without thinking about it all. Its just there.

[TimelessDimensions]

good and evil are opinions of the ego.

[NancyV]

I would like to see Avalon become a subscription website.

Not me. Money has a way of corrupting everything. We need to move away from that model, not embrace it. Within a properly functioning family (remember those?), no family member pays for the services of another. Everyone is cared for and supported out of love and responsibility. That is the model we need to embrace. That is the natural model, and we're losing it step by step. The communication that occurs in this forum serves many different members in many different ways. The controllers of the world would love for us to assign monetary value to that communication and use their currency tools to buy and sell it. Everything measured in money is essentially their property, and they know it. To allow Avalon to fall into their clutches would be a great disservice to us all.


I don't think money corrupts. I think that money exposes corruption that already exists. Money is just a form of energy. It flows without any intention of its own.
I would have to agree with Whiskey Mystic here Chico. Saying that money corrupts is like saying that guns kill. It's people who are corrupt and corruptible and people who kill. We only use different tools and energies to express who we are. It's so much easier for us to put the blame elsewhere and not accept that it is our own individual responsibility whether we allow ourselves to be corrupted or to attempt to corrupt others.

As long as we live in this social structure we find ourselves in here, we will be using money as energy. If you can opt out of that system, great. I've tried to before and it simply was not realistic. The system does not have to be looked upon as controlling you simply because you participate in it and I will never think of myself as a slave to the elite no matter what the system is. The illusion of enslavement seems to be a popular one nowadays and I do not intend to go along with that illusionary belief.

Nancy :)

[Chicodoodoo]

Saying that money corrupts is like saying that guns kill.

I agree the corruption lies within us, but it is not an "either or" duality, as in "we are either corrupt or we are not." It is a spectrum, meaning there is some degree of corruptibility in all of us. Your gun analogy is not as straight-forward as it appears. Guns don't just kill, they make it more convenient to kill. When things are more convenient, the tendency is to be lazy and use your advantage. It is indeed the person doing the killing, not the weapon, but the weapon has a definite effect on the person's inclination to strike.

Likewise, money makes it easier to choose corruption over integrity. After all, the reward, more money, is quick and easy to trade for increased self-indulgence in the current moment.

When we say "money corrupts", we are really talking about human nature. Money becomes a way to facilitate corruption. It can encourage people to do things that really are not in their best interest in the long run by making the short-term rewards appear so attractive. It is precisely how we can destroy the environment humanity depends upon for life itself while we pursue immediate gratification.

[Carmody]

[B]
This is it exactly. White people ( as we refer to them--they can be any color though) don't support their medicine people in a collective way. They forget that part and remember the part where the medicine person offered all services for free though. Not really but it appears that way to the person who is outside looking in. The church also has influenced that attitude. Going to church is free, right? Not really if one is compelled to tithe. And most clergy are paid salaries. And they receive stipends for funerals and marriages from the family.

Also they question the medicine person. "You're not charging very much you must not be any good." Tribal people simply didn't do that, question the medicine person's ability based on their fee. That was bizarre beyond reckoning as if money has something to do with ability. Or they question about a fee being too high and everything should be for free because one is doing 'God's Work."



I know a medical professional who decided he wanted to retire.

He raised his rates by 50%, tryingto cut his business/work load down. His level of clientell went up by about 25%.

The then doubled his rates.

His clientelle list doubled in size.

He hired a bunch of staff to work in his offices under his tutelage and doubled his rates again.

He had even more business.

He figures, from questioning his staff and customers..that the impression was that his services are among the best in the world as they are so expensive. Not true, he says, "I'm the same guy I was before this all started!"

However, he managed to retire.

Comfortably.

[enfoldedblue]

I found it very refreshing to read this thread. I have seen this topic discussed elsewhere, and the majority of people felt it was wrong to charge for spiritual work. To me this is crazy. We should all have the right to receive something in exchange for our talents, skills and abilities, regardless of what they are. We all have needs that need to be met. Why should a spiritual worker’s children starve, so that others may become a bit more enlightened. I think that most people who feel that spiritual teaching should be free are those deeply entrenched in victim mentality and poverty consciousness. Supporting this mentality benefits no one.

However, that being said, I do feel that it is crucial when doing this work that money is not the prime motivator as this compromises one’s integrity. For example I am starting to do what I call Sacred Journey Support. For me I feel it is very important to support spiritual self-sufficiency, rather than dependency. Obviously financially it would be better for me to make people think that they need to keep coming back, but to me this would feel wrong. For me integrity is the bedrock of good spiritual work. My ego might say, but if I just get a few clients coming regularly I could get that car that would make me look really good. If I followed this line of thought I would completely compromise my integrity and my work would lose its value. I think some spiritual workers do get caught in a whirlwind of the ego and their work ends up being more about products and marketing that true deep honest spiritual work.

Ultimately I think exchange of energy (whatever form) should be a beautiful thing that supports all parties and helps to connect us.

LOVE ALLways, c

[grannyfranny100]

I believe the common term is "cheapskate." I do enjoy hearing what some of the underlying motivations are and what some cheapskate rationalizations are. Plus did you know in the old days the Chinese people paid doctors every month until they got sick. It was their belief that they were paying their doctor for health and so they did not pay when they did get sick until their health returned. To each their own viewpoint.

[Deedee]

In my opinion let's be realistic here. We live in a 3D world. It costs money to be here. The game we play on Earth does also include money which is the exchange of energy. I do think it is absolutely necessary to be compensated for work done. However, with that being said, some people, communities even, are moving into what's called "The Gift Economy" where you give back based upon what you want to give. I believe the Universe does provide in unexpected ways too though. On a side note, in years past, the Chinese Doctors received payment after their services once a patient became well. I believe that anyone on this Forum that has received something from this Forum and not given back may consider something.. even if it's just simple gratitude in your heart. Thanks for reading.

[Flash]

Money is a way to pass on energy. Itis the way that was chosen by us, humans. The kind of energy that is passed on depends on the beholder. In fact, money is just energy. It has no flavour. If it serves corruption, it is because the beholder is corruptible. If the beholder is a psychopath wanting everything for himself and starving other, it is not the money by itself at fault, but the beholder. If it serves for spiritual evolution, it is because the beholder sees it like that.

And we all know that we need energy to live on this planet. Therefore, we need money to survive.

I do not work for free, my needs have to be met, otherwise I may as well sit on my arse. Same is true for anybody that is working. Their basic needs have to be met. In fact, same is true for anybody period, basic needs have to be met and they require passing energy around, which in these days is served by money.

So yes, everybody deserve to be paid for their work.

[9eagle9]

Ifr you're good and you don't set monetary and personal boundaries you have people who will do nothing but take advantage of you. The world owes them something so they think nothing of texting you at four in the morning, dropping in whenever, running you down when your standing in the middle of a river on vacation, calling you whenever they feel like (usually daily) like you were some manner of best friend that can be imposed on 24/7. They tie up their self identity with you. You're out having dinner and they plop down at the table and want advice.

You can tell them your having sex in the back seat of car at a stop light and you don't have much time and they keep right on talking. ME ME ME. And its all for free so you have one hundred people a week calling to get free. I mean do they do this to their doctors, lawyers and pharmacists and postal workers and grocery workers.. Just drop in for a bit of chit chat and and some free medicine and stamps or produce?

No. It doesn't even cross their mind.

So who taught them they could do that to me. People who lack the self value to set those sorts of boundaries. Enabling them instead of showing them self responsibility and self empowerment. Its rampant in new age communities now that the found out God was our best friend. They sorta view me as an agent of god and like God I' should be free and available 24/7 to moan too.

There's a local reader who is quite good and she gets to see about 10 people a day. Cause she does it all for free. She's lost her house, she has no income and she lives off the mercy of others. She always wailing at me that she can't support herself.God is failing her. I wail back she's a dumbass and can't see what is right in front of her face. Then I hang up on her cause she didn't make an appointment.

She keeps calling though wanting to know whats wrong with her and I keep telling her she's a dumbass. For free. I don't charge her for it.

[NancyV]

There's a local reader who is quite good and she gets to see about 10 people a day. Cause she does it all for free. She's lost her house, she has no income and she lives off the mercy of others. She always wailing at me that she can't support herself.God is failing her. I wail back she's a dumbass and can't see what is right in front of her face. Then I hang up on her cause she didn't make an appointment.

She keeps calling though wanting to know whats wrong with her and I keep telling her she's a dumbass. For free. I don't charge her for it.
Perfect!!! :amen::rockon::bounce:

Nancy :)

[Flash]

There's a local reader who is quite good and she gets to see about 10 people a day. Cause she does it all for free. She's lost her house, she has no income and she lives off the mercy of others. She always wailing at me that she can't support herself.God is failing her. I wail back she's a dumbass and can't see what is right in front of her face. Then I hang up on her cause she didn't make an appointment.

She keeps calling though wanting to know whats wrong with her and I keep telling her she's a dumbass. For free. I don't charge her for it.
Perfect!!! :amen::rockon::bounce:

Nancy :)

If you would charge she would listen and keep calling you. Then you could tell her to charge some fees.

[9eagle9]

She has no money to pay me....lol. Not that I would ask but change has to come from within and like so many people on a spiritual path she is waiting for something external to happen.

In all honesty she's had a whole crowd of people, including myself, for years urging her to start a process on her core values which is what the issue is .She has the resources; she won't commit to doing it. Someone will look out for her even as they are alternately squelching her down. Opposing core beliefs.

And this parable of spiritual people accepting money even if they sorely need has set up a mechanism of guilt in some that is so extreme they will impoverish themselves and put themselves in these situations. So people who talk this sort of lethally damaging doctrine are usually NOT spiritual if it is triggering guilt of that magnitude. How could it be a spiritual precept if it is that damaging? Spirituality and guilt do not co exist peacefully together. In the next breath these some programmers (indocrtinators) will speak of ridding yourself of guilt to be closer to God even as they are triggering that guilt in others.

The suffering saint syndrome is epic in spiritual communities. They don' want to shift they want people to see the holy sufferer. "I'm poor so it makes me more virtuous. My hands don't touch filthy lucre.." I suppose that is a small comfort to the absolute helplessness one feels when they get sucked up in that sort of indoctrination.

It's self created but there's nearly always a co creator who helps to facilitate that stuff with them.

[TWINCANS]

It may be a past life issue, you know. A lot of people who are in the helping/healing fields today spent many lives in monasteries etc living esthetic past lives because that was the belief in those times. So maybe you could approach her and see if she resonates with that idea. Just an idea. She's on some kind of loop.

[9eagle9]

It may be a past life issue, you know. A lot of people who are in the helping/healing fields today spent many lives in monasteries etc living esthetic past lives because that was the belief in those times. So maybe you could approach her and see if she resonates with that idea. Just an idea. She's on some kind of loop.

She's on a self sabatage loop and indoctrinated into so much craziness. She has too many masters (beliefs) Like so many path seekers she doesn't examine her beliefs to see where they are opposing each other, and when that happens the resistance doesn't allow you to move forward. One beleif grinds against the other, opposing each other and nothing can shift.

She maintains like so many do that when we reincarnate we leave all our crap behind during that time when we are disincarnate, and then reincarnate and alternately spend a life time of chasing down past life issues--the crap we were supposed to leave behind. Huh?

Two opposing beliefs that people somehow manage to rationalize so they co exist. So while you have valid advice she has a means to counter it "all that has been left behind before she came into this world." . She actually has childhood abuse issues that she refuses to excavate so those core values are thrown into the loop (which is a very apt description, it just plays over and over) When that's done its easier to get into remaining past life scripts that may be dangling out there. Why she doesn't want to excavate this childhood....?

Greybeard will know what I speak of. Every victim 'gets' something from their state of victimization. Attention, sympathy, some false security. To you and I it may seem crazy or of small recompense compared to the ugliness of the circumstances but they cling to it. That is the thing that is hard to shift. When people stop paying attention to her script, her drama she may be get tired enough to do something on her own behalf. She regards this as 'dark knowledge' so while she wants my attention she has already set the conditions to not trust what I'm saying. She rationalizes all advice as external even as she seeks it. This is CRAZY making **** for sure but that is the way it is. She's not consciously aware of it.

People have to hit the very rock bottom, and get angry about their own existence , and many new and old age schisms are always preaching about the 'dangers' of anger.' Be balanced, be serene , be at peace, don't look at negative things--anger disconnects you from Source. So that creates more uncertainty you are conditioned against being angry when its the very thing that makes you so fed up that you are motivated for a positive change.

Self righteous, suicide.

[toothpick]

Hello members.
Here is a thought.
The good old barter system
worked well for thousands of years all over the world
You give me a lesson in spirituality, I give you a lesson in how to grow your own medication.
everyone is satisfied and we don,t need monetary satisfaction.
No money, wouldn,t it be lovely.

toothpick

[greybeard]

Yes 9eagle9
I have seen some amazing things.
A healing happened for an ex neighbor and ex footballer.
His back had calsified and he was stooped over.
Put my hands on his back and he slowly straightened,
I dont know who was more surprised him or me .
I said Paddy are you doing that?
He said no Chris -- his next words -- will I loose my benefits?
He is on state support.
Within a few weeks he was stooped again but the pain stayed away.

its mind bogling.

If you ask some one how they are and there is a problem -- you will get MY arthritis is bad today etc
Peopl dont realise they OWN their condition-- nobody likes to give up what they OWN.
After all its their very own and it makes them feel special.
As you said 9eagle9 the fringe benefits seem to out weigh the condition.

Not every one is like that but if you claim you "own" the problem the all powerful mind thinks you want to keep it.

Safe way is not to deny the condition but not personalize it.

ie There is arthritis etc---- but not owning it.

Regards Chris

[Peace of Mind]

Hello members.
Here is a thought.
The good old barter system
worked well for thousands of years all over the world
You give me a lesson in spirituality, I give you a lesson in how to grow your own medication.
everyone is satisfied and we don,t need monetary satisfaction.
No money, wouldn,t it be lovely.

toothpick

Sounds good to me. The current system is flawed and corrupt, allowing few opportunities to advance your talents into fruitation. It's designed and controlled to serve ravenous elements of the system, not so much personal satifaction.

In this way of living you most likely will be making a living doing something you really don't care to do. It takes a great deal of networking and dedication to get paid in doing something you truly like doing. And even then it has to be something the people really want, or can use. I for one do not like giving frauds money or the time of the day....

Peace

[9eagle9]

And for those of us who grow their own medicine further reassigning that money is meaningless, either way, what will you offer when medicine growing isn't needed, wanted or desired?

A barter system is much the same as a money system. It depends on value or scarcity, need, want or desire. People are always offering me things I don't need, and I'm really not interested in taking things that have no value or purpose to me . This is why suggesting my clients bring me boar's tusks or animal brains (something I actually need) is awkward. They either don't have what I need or find it more convenient to give me 'clean' money rather than moldering bones. Granted I have a few intrepid people who will bring me a raccoon skull with its putrefying brains sloshing around in side but....in the mainstream no.

Another monkey wrench are people who become self sufficient (as we are being urged to do) and don't require anything from anyone else. I find myself here frequently. It takes a lot to tempt me. If I am in need of it chances I already have it. The more alignment you become the less you are interested in material goods anyway.

So with those who have goods to barter going to become impoverished? Someone still has a means of controlling the system. My very lack of interest in what others are offering may impoverish them. There's going to be a great deal of competition in the barter system. I'd not be so hasty to irridicate a currency system. There's not enough people who are Grizzly Adams to do so. Yet.

I'm not knocking the barter system I do use it myself. Someone wants to use my hoist they have to move my refrigerator. Some people deem this as rude when in actuality they aren't bartering they are asking for something for free. So I expect that the barter system will have a great deal of morally generated conflict in it. If I'm rude that someone wants to use my hoist for three hours and its unfair that I ask them to invest 10 minutes in moving fridge I can see where a WHOLE lot of conflict will arise. But the fact remains. You want my hoist, I want your biceps and if one wants to barter you can't tell me I'm rude or selfish for expecting something in return.

I basically only trade with people who are what you could say on the same page as I.

[Arpheus]

I was a gnostic instructor for 5 years of my life we never charged anyone to teach what we were taught,that was the rule ,we called it the 3rd factor sacrifice for humanity give it to others what was freely given to you,as a matter of fact all full members paid the rent and bills of the property we used to be at out of our own pockets. The school grounds for the people that were interested in learning ,also you werent forced to pay anything at all to keep the place going it was completely voluntary and the instructors gave their time teaching the students without any form of payment whatsoever,we did it out of our own heart on our off time when we werent working our physical jobs,so yes i not only think but believe personally that it is completely possible for any person with spiritual goals to teach others and give them the necessary keys to self discovery absolutely free of any costs,all one has to do is do it from their hearts.

[Peace of Mind]

Hey guys,
To add to my previous statement. IMO, A barter system will alleviate some of the corruption and get people to be more creative. A currancy system promotes lazyness, and festers greed. People have become accustom to using worthless paper as a means to get by without actually doing anything (especially those that inherited their wealth). In many ways todays currency has block people from becoming the best they can be. Bartering goods will also take away meaningless junk we come to collect over the years. More meaningful high quality products will be made and everyone will have a fair chance to create and participate. Talents will be used and rarely wasted or abused...

Peace

[Whiskey_Mystic]

I'm not knocking the barter system I do use it myself. Someone wants to use my hoist they have to move my refrigerator. Some people deem this as rude when in actuality they aren't bartering they are asking for something for free. So I expect that the barter system will have a great deal of morally generated conflict in it. If I'm rude that someone wants to use my hoist for three hours and its unfair that I ask them to invest 10 minutes in moving fridge I can see where a WHOLE lot of conflict will arise. But the fact remains. You want my hoist, I want your biceps and if one wants to barter you can't tell me I'm rude or selfish for expecting something in return.

I envy you. I fix people's computers all the time and I don't have enough self value to ask for anything in return. And I'm unemployed! I know I have a lot of work to do on myelf and this really illustrates that fact.

[Axman]

I have repaired electronics my whole life 30 years worth. If some one had a hard time paying me or I could see it was not easy for them I would give them a break.When the time comes for me I hope them same rings true but now the people that could pay never want to so I have an extra charge for them its called a@# hole charge.

The Axman

[9eagle9]

I envy you. I fix people's computers all the time and I don't have enough self value to ask for anything in return. And I'm unemployed! I know I have a lot of work to do on myelf and this really illustrates that fact.

Well I give you a big hand there. That is the whole core issue right there. Its a core belief and value that has been instilled us on a familial, religious and social engineering level. And it is THE hardest thing to ever KNOW---one's own self value deficiets. Let alone admit them. . To get our self value issues out of where we can see, hear or feel them into the conscious thought is the biggest step towards self healing there is. EVER. It's EPIC. You lit me up with that one, sir. That's the biggest challenge, maybe humanity's greatest challenge, prying it out of the hidden place where its been tap dancing on us all these years, and into the surface where we can start finding out where it was instilled at.

I know. I used to have them too. Lay the guilt trip on me and the entire planet could take advantage of me. How dare I have the termerity to ask for anything in return? When I had nothing left to give. The tank gets empty after a while when its not replenished.

I got over it. Of course now some people think I'm the biggest ego that walked the earth but that is part of the challenge. Finding out what is ego domination and what is self value. The difference to the uninformed is hard to see.

Hurray for you.

[Carmody]

I envy you. I fix people's computers all the time and I don't have enough self value to ask for anything in return. And I'm unemployed! I know I have a lot of work to do on myelf and this really illustrates that fact.

Well I give you a big hand there. That is the whole core issue right there. Its a core belief and value that has been instilled us on a familial, religious and social engineering level. And it is THE hardest thing to ever KNOW---one's own self value deficiets. Let alone admit them. . To get our self value issues out of where we can see, hear or feel them into the conscious thought is the biggest step towards self healing there is. EVER. It's EPIC. You lit me up with that one, sir. That's the biggest challenge, maybe humanity's greatest challenge, prying it out of the hidden place where its been tap dancing on us all these years, and into the surface where we can start finding out where it was instilled at.

I know. I used to have them too. Lay the guilt trip on me and the entire planet could take advantage of me. How dare I have the termerity to ask for anything in return? When I had nothing left to give. The tank gets empty after a while when its not replenished.

I got over it. Of course now some people think I'm the biggest ego that walked the earth but that is part of the challenge. Finding out what is ego domination and what is self value. The difference to the uninformed is hard to see.

Hurray for you.

Yes, I'm called egotistic at times. I come from a place that is honest, as honest as I can muster.

I beat myself down for years. Then I realized that hey, this brain thing - it kinda works. I stopped beating on myself. I'm not derogatory toward myself and I'm not that humble either. As social grease, being self depreciating can work quite well, but it can also shoot you down in the wrong social situation.

i don't talk about what I'm capable of, it tends to scare people into thinking I'm a bit crazy...so I just leave it alone.

I'm in one of those moods right now ...where I just can't wait to get off this planet. I won't be letting the door hit me in the ass on the way out.

I've been trying since day one to move this world just a couple of inches and being at the 'front' of this sort of thing is wearying as can be.

The alchemical bent I've been on is seemingly working quite well. That part of emergent science is exploding into existence on the public cutting edge physics front.

[ulli]

If and when you decide to go, Carmody,

I'd like you to remember my application,

and here it is for the record:

I would love to act as your channel.

[Flash]

I envy you. I fix people's computers all the time and I don't have enough self value to ask for anything in return. And I'm unemployed! I know I have a lot of work to do on myelf and this really illustrates that fact.

Well I give you a big hand there. That is the whole core issue right there. Its a core belief and value that has been instilled us on a familial, religious and social engineering level. And it is THE hardest thing to ever KNOW---one's own self value deficiets. Let alone admit them. . To get our self value issues out of where we can see, hear or feel them into the conscious thought is the biggest step towards self healing there is. EVER. It's EPIC. You lit me up with that one, sir. That's the biggest challenge, maybe humanity's greatest challenge, prying it out of the hidden place where its been tap dancing on us all these years, and into the surface where we can start finding out where it was instilled at.

I know. I used to have them too. Lay the guilt trip on me and the entire planet could take advantage of me. How dare I have the termerity to ask for anything in return? When I had nothing left to give. The tank gets empty after a while when its not replenished.

I got over it. Of course now some people think I'm the biggest ego that walked the earth but that is part of the challenge. Finding out what is ego domination and what is self value. The difference to the uninformed is hard to see.

Hurray for you.

Yes, I'm called egotistic at times. I come from a place that is honest, as honest as I can muster.

I beat myself down for years. Then I realized that hey, this brain thing - it kinda works. I stopped beating on myself. I'm not derogatory toward myself and I'm not that humble either. As social grease, being self depreciating can work quite well, but it can also shoot you down in the wrong social situation.

i don't talk about what I'm capable of, it tends to scare people into thinking I'm a bit crazy...so I just leave it alone.

I'm in one of those moods right now ...where I just can't wait to get off this planet. I won't be letting the door hit me in the ass on the way out.

I've been trying since day one to move this world just a couple of inches and being at the 'front' of this sort of thing is wearying as can be.

The alchemical bent I've been on is seemingly working quite well. That part of emergent science is exploding into existence on the public cutting edge physics front.

And many thanks for it all Carmody, and I am very well aware that your time here is all free but worths hundreds of thousands. Great souls do not always charge, but they should know their worth and be living comfortably. Thanks again for the inch you brought me and others.

Gandhi was living with about nothing, surrounded by people he loved, with a lot of material help for his mission at last. His basic needs to his taste were met. Prior to being "Gandhi", he was a lawyer making a good living.

[TWINCANS]

re 9eagle9's part-post explanation "She's on a self sabatage loop and indoctrinated into so much craziness. She has too many masters (beliefs) Like so many path seekers she doesn't examine her beliefs to see where they are opposing each other, and when that happens the resistance doesn't allow you to move forward. One beleif grinds against the other, opposing each other and nothing can shift. "

So here's my self-limiting belief - I can't help trying to 'fix-it'. Gimme the problem I'll fix it for you - also free of course. Now there's a way to busy up your day. BTW just why do I think I can fix it? Ego I guess.
But I just can't help myself - I keep contemplating this person and I have another perspective. She has all 3 bottom chakras out of kilter. Root (no income, survival issues) Sacral (unresolved abuse issues) Navel (powerless to change, no angry fire in belly). And she can't separate one problem from another to deal with it, she must have all 3 energy centres intertwined too.
Where's Greybeard with his hands on healing?

[Shezbeth]

The only thing I have ever asked in exchange for anything I have offered to another is the willingness to pay forward to still others the type of assistance which I am offering to them.

Simply, I make them promise to act toward others as I am toward them. ^_^

[Lord Sidious]

The only thing I have ever asked in exchange for anything I have offered to another is the willingness to pay forward to still others the type of assistance which I am offering to them.

Simply, I make them promise to act toward others as I am toward them. ^_^

I tried that myself.
I found that a lot of people will agree with you, but not hold up their end of the agreement.
The other thing as well is that I have this strange religious belief, I like to eat decent food and so do my cats, so that didn't put food on our table.
I could tell you that I went without anything to eat at all for days at a time, the most being about four days.
So I changed my ideas and things flowed better for me.
And the cats.

[TheVoyager]

Thank you all for your opinions :) I have been dwelling upon exactly these issues these past days, and it's been very interesting, and helpful!, to read this thread :)

[TimelessDimensions]

i work for free, donations are welcome but not important

[Shezbeth]

I found that a lot of people will agree with you, but not hold up their end of the agreement....
I like to eat decent food and so do my cats, so that didn't put food on our table.

Whether they are willing to fulfill their end of the bargain is of no consequence to me, though I have observed similar behavior.

What a marvelous learning opportunity it has been for some. ^_^

As for food, I haven't (yet) quit my day job.

[9eagle9]

You can't really fix another person, you can facilitate a means of actualizing what is occuring with them, and starting a process, but the willingless to do accomplish something has to be theirs. IF they do not have the willingness to address what is occuring that is their lack of self value expression at work.

The expressions found in the chakras, blocks, cords, stuff like that are really just expressions of the core beleifs and values. You can fix the chakra for a time, but unless the core value is abated the chakra will continue to express the core value. Chakras correspond to core values. They aren't responsible for the core value so ...theres really nothing we can do in there to abate the deeper issue.





re 9eagle9's part-post explanation "She's on a self sabatage loop and indoctrinated into so much craziness. She has too many masters (beliefs) Like so many path seekers she doesn't examine her beliefs to see where they are opposing each other, and when that happens the resistance doesn't allow you to move forward. One beleif grinds against the other, opposing each other and nothing can shift. "

So here's my self-limiting belief - I can't help trying to 'fix-it'. Gimme the problem I'll fix it for you - also free of course. Now there's a way to busy up your day. BTW just why do I think I can fix it? Ego I guess.
But I just can't help myself - I keep contemplating this person and I have another perspective. She has all 3 bottom chakras out of kilter. Root (no income, survival issues) Sacral (unresolved abuse issues) Navel (powerless to change, no angry fire in belly). And she can't separate one problem from another to deal with it, she must have all 3 energy centres intertwined too.
Where's Greybeard with his hands on healing?

[manny]

ok this ones for free.
i predict that tonight it will be dark.
the next question i will have to charge 500 uk pounds.
simples

[etm567]

College should be free. So should medical care. Of course, that is just my opinion.

The problem nowadays is that we need the information, and due to the economy many of us absolutely cannot afford to pay for it. We can't pay our bills as it is. I'm not living in a tent city yet, but that isn't out of the question. We are not making ends meet, period. I have a daughter to take care of, and she needs shoes, as I said above. So, I'm not saying Kerry should give it to me, I'm saying it's really too bad that she needs to charge everyone, because a lot of people nowadays cannot -- and I mean cannot -- afford to pay.

[Lord Sidious]

College should be free. So should medical care. Of course, that is just my opinion.

The problem nowadays is that we need the information, and due to the economy many of us absolutely cannot afford to pay for it. We can't pay our bills as it is. I'm not living in a tent city yet, but that isn't out of the question. We are not making ends meet, period. I have a daughter to take care of, and she needs shoes, as I said above. So, I'm not saying Kerry should give it to me, I'm saying it's really too bad that she needs to charge everyone, because a lot of people nowadays cannot -- and I mean cannot -- afford to pay.

The ONLY reason a nation is MEANT to exist is for the benefit of the people, something that Muammar Gaddaffi understood.
So, I agree, the government, whose only reason to exist is to serve, should use the nations resources to invest in the welfare of the people.

[RMorgan]

I agree Rob.

I would gladly work for free for anyone, if I didn´t need the money, but the fact is that I do need it, like most of us.

If I had enough money to live comfortably, without luxury, I would dedicate my whole life to help others without charging a cent.

However, there is something called greed. It´s like a disease. No one can say it´s immune to it until it knocks at your door.

I guess we could call it the dark side of the force, the ultimate temptation.

That´s why we see so many "spiritual gurus" living in ostentation. I´ve seen many well-intentioned persons turning into monsters, and I´m sure I´ll see many more.

It´s pretty fair to charge money for our services, but we must watch out for traps along the way, that´s why it´s pretty nice to make some charity from time to time.

Working for free once in a while helps us to see the traps that were once hidden, and makes us realize that there are other kinds of reward other than money.