Memory hole

[DevilPigeon]

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I've noticed recently a rather worrying trend of 'memory holing' certain contentious posts. This is disturbing.

To me, if a post is contentious then it can be nullified by reasoned argument rather than hard deletion, and is the proper, decent & honourable thing to do, even if a cross-section of people deem the post to be dishonourable in any way. Deleting a post also carries with it the risk of being shown to be 'less than transparent'.

I'm not happy with the way things are headed at all, it's not right.

[ThePythonicCow]

Insults of other members, moderators and the founder are not allowed.

We aren't going to leave such posts around just so we can prove we acted in good faith removing them ;).

(I'm not claiming we catch all such posts, nor am I claiming that it is a black and white decision ... but such imperfections in our moderation efforts are no excuse to cease moderating.)

[jjl]

Paul, Thanks for this, I feel safer in here these days.

[DevilPigeon]

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I can understand certain posts being deleted without a second thought - porn, adverts etc - but I'm sorry, I just don't agree that posts in general should be 'disappeared' neatly away. Where a direct attack has been made, surely at most a level of redaction should take place (as I've seen before).

Making posts disappear leaves whatever issue has been raised unresolved.

[ThePythonicCow]

We remove the parts that are not allowed. How much of a post remains depends on how much of the post was entangled with what I removed.

If there was a legitimate point to be discussed, and it can be presented in an acceptable fashion in another post, without resorting to disruption, attacks and such, then that's fine.

Once a particular post, or portion of a post, becomes sufficiently entangled with unacceptable attacks, then I have limited patience and resources to be dissecting it, looking for any possible reasonable value that I might salvage. That responsibility must lay with the original poster.

[The One]

Nine-tenths of wisdom is being wise in time

And remember my friend Nobody can give you wiser advice than yourself

[SKAWF]

ive just written two posts. nothing offensive, but i deleted them both.
its not worth the risk

[Lord Sidious]

Being a moderator/admin is not as easy as you might think.
It is sort of like being asked to walk a line, but the line is a giant razor blade, one slip and you are cactus.
There will always be those upset that you are doing too much, those that think you aren't doing enough.
The one thing that can be VERY hard to control is flamewars as a lot of people don't even realise they are in one.
That can spread like we have seen on here a few times.
I think the mods get way more right than they get wrong from what I have seen as far as posts being removed/edited.
They have removed/edited some of mine, so I am not preaching as a goody goody.
It can be difficult to know what to do when you are feeling down, not well or just angry. But it has to be done, or someone else has to and it can escalate.
The thing is, that we all see the black and white bits different, but the gray parts can be hard to sort out too.
I can't say that I agree with every thing the team do on here, but I don't expect to agree 100% with anyone but myself, so that isn't a big deal to me.

[Dennis Leahy]

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I've noticed recently a rather worrying trend of 'memory holing' certain contentious posts. This is disturbing.

To me, if a post is contentious then it can be nullified by reasoned argument rather than hard deletion, and is the proper, decent & honourable thing to do, even if a cross-section of people deem the post to be dishonourable in any way. Deleting a post also carries with it the risk of being shown to be 'less than transparent'.

I'm not happy with the way things are headed at all, it's not right.

You (correctly) pointed out an ad hominem attack, but instead of using the 'report a post' feature, you did it in a thread. You also quoted back the ad hominem attack in your post. I already apologized for being slow to edit out the ad hominem (Avalon policy), but it is an overwhelming task to ask moderators (volunteers that offer some of their time to Avalon) to read every word of every thread and react quickly. Clicking the 'report a post' function brings it to all the mods/admins attention. Your post had nothing left after removing/editing the reference to the ad hominem, so I deleted it.

Your opinion of what is "proper, decent & honourable", to do in a situation like this is your opinion - but it does not happen to agree with the spirit of the Member Guidelines or the moderators' task. One of the functions the mods are asked to perform is editing out the distracting ad hominem attack, and if quoted, then editing out the quoted ad hominem as well - to remove the gasoline from the fire, and allow the thread to get back on-track. The mods and admins will continue to do that.

The issue of transparency is also easy to misinterpret and misuse, and can easily be used as a club to beat someone to death. There may be forums that leave every snarky, mean-spirited, nasty, divisive comment, lie, and character assassination attempt intact, and Project Avalon isn't one of them. The mods and admins at Avalon will continue to do whatever we can to help keep Avalon a place for intelligent, passionate, respectful discussion of the wide spectrum of topics covered under the banners of "alternative news" and whistleblowing, spirituality and personal growth, and strategies to move us in a positive direction, as individuals and as a species. Those that have the intent to subvert this mission, or that do not resonate with this mission, are being asked to leave, so that those that want to support this mission will feel comfortable sharing here.

Dennis

[DevilPigeon]

You (correctly) pointed out an ad hominem attack, but instead of using the 'report a post' feature, you did it in a thread. You also quoted back the ad hominem attack in your post. I already apologized for being slow to edit out the ad hominem (Avalon policy), but it is an overwhelming task to ask moderators (volunteers that offer some of their time to Avalon) to read every word of every thread and react quickly. Clicking the 'report a post' function brings it to all the mods/admins attention. Your post had nothing left after removing/editing the reference to the ad hominem, so I deleted it.

Your opinion of what is "proper, decent & honourable", to do in a situation like this is your opinion - but it does not happen to agree with the spirit of the Member Guidelines or the moderators' task. One of the functions the mods are asked to perform is editing out the distracting ad hominem attack, and if quoted, then editing out the quoted ad hominem as well - to remove the gasoline from the fire, and allow the thread to get back on-track. The mods and admins will continue to do that.

The issue of transparency is also easy to misinterpret and misuse, and can easily be used as a club to beat someone to death. There may be forums that leave every snarky, mean-spirited, nasty, divisive comment, lie, and character assassination attempt intact, and Project Avalon isn't one of them. The mods and admins at Avalon will continue to do whatever we can to help keep Avalon a place for intelligent, passionate, respectful discussion of the wide spectrum of topics covered under the banners of "alternative news" and whistleblowing, spirituality and personal growth, and strategies to move us in a positive direction, as individuals and as a species. Those that have the intent to subvert this mission, or that do not resonate with this mission, are being asked to leave, so that those that want to support this mission will feel comfortable sharing here.

Dennis

Dennis

Firstly, minor point, I didn't report a post or refer to it within the original thread, as it happens I didn't post within the thread in question. But that's coolio :)

Regarding the remainder of your post - and Paul's earlier - plus referred to by Lord Sid, I genuinely sympathise with moderators. Really. I can appreciate it's a difficult job finding a necessary balance within a forum. However, I'm still unhappy that entire posts can be deleted other than the obvious types that I mentioned earlier. As you pointed out, posts can be edited by yourselves to redact names, I've got no problem with that. The sticking point in my mind is that one of the goals of Avalon is to create a 'model society', but if that's the case, then all views - good, bad, indifferent - need to be heard and responded to accordingly. A model society simply can't ignore those we feel may be overly contentious or whatever, or worse pretend that such views aren't desirable or welcome. What would the outcome eventually be? A society that only expresses a reinforcing view, no alternative viewpoints, no constructive dissent, and lives in fear of going against the grain.

I'm not trying to pick an argument or be contentious myself by challenging the framework that the mods are working against, but I think it's a worthwhile point to think about.

[ThePythonicCow]

DevilPigeon,

There is a difference between dissent and disruption.

To the best of our ability, we are not stifling dissent. We have and will continue to stifle disruption.

Those expressing dissent disruptively will have to try again (if they are still here) to express it respectfully.

Disruption does not gain the protections of dissent by virtue of containing some dissent.

Rather dissent loses its protections, when expressed disruptively.

I will confess to growing tired of explaining the difference between censorship and moderation of the manner of posting.

A model society must make room for all manner of diverse views. But equally important, the citizens of a model society have a responsibility to respect the reasonable guidelines of that society for the manner, timing and place of their public statements.

Nor, for that manner, is Project Avalon an entire model society. I feel no compulsion to make one iota of space on this forum for the viewpoints of certain henchmen who control the dominant institutions of our civilization. It is fitting and proper and intended that Project Avalon provide a more hospitable forum for a particular subset of views, experiences, evidence and opinions, and shun other such.

[DevilPigeon]

-----

I thank all who have responded, and all who have read. I've said my piece. The aim was never to cause or start an argument. I appreciate all viewpoints.

Whether I've achieved anything, I'm unsure myself. However, I will back down humbly & gracefully.

DP

[Dennis Leahy]

... The sticking point in my mind is that one of the goals of Avalon is to create a 'model society', but if that's the case, then all views - good, bad, indifferent - need to be heard and responded to accordingly. A model society simply can't ignore those we feel may be overly contentious or whatever, or worse pretend that such views aren't desirable or welcome. What would the outcome eventually be? A society that only expresses a reinforcing view, no alternative viewpoints, no constructive dissent, and lives in fear of going against the grain.
...
As has been stated by Bill and several of the mods, dissent and alternative viewpoints are not under attack or scrutiny. Dissent is welcomed and encouraged. No matter how many bows and ribbons are wrapped around ad hominem attacks, they are not going to be considered as simply an alternative viewpoint.

Avalonians are, as a group, swimming upstream, going against the grain, dissenting from the mainstream junk passed off as news, right? To suggest that eliminating ad hominem attacks somehow squashes dissent is mistaken or disingenuous. Disagreement (dissent) does not afford any right to make a personal attack.

Divide and conquer, distract and befuddle, disrupt and disperse - tactics used by agents to disintegrate alignment and organization of purpose. So, it's not just ad hominem attacks that the mods and admins are editing, and we may split a topic in two if someone goes off on a tangent, we may delete or edit a post that is (deliberately or accidentally) destroying the continuity of a thread, and we may remove repeat offenders from Avalon if they refuse to moderate their behavior.

There is a LOT going on in this world right this moment that deserves the focus and undivided attention of people of compassion and passion.

A model society needs toilets and sewers as much as we need windows and doors. Even though a handful of people might pat themselves on the back for 'transparency' for allowing the stinky stuff to pile up in the house, most won't and are happy to flush and move forward.

Dennis

[DevilPigeon]

... The sticking point in my mind is that one of the goals of Avalon is to create a 'model society', but if that's the case, then all views - good, bad, indifferent - need to be heard and responded to accordingly. A model society simply can't ignore those we feel may be overly contentious or whatever, or worse pretend that such views aren't desirable or welcome. What would the outcome eventually be? A society that only expresses a reinforcing view, no alternative viewpoints, no constructive dissent, and lives in fear of going against the grain.
...
As has been stated by Bill and several of the mods, dissent and alternative viewpoints are not under attack or scrutiny. Dissent is welcomed and encouraged. No matter how many bows and ribbons are wrapped around ad hominem attacks, they are not going to be considered as simply an alternative viewpoint.

Avalonians are, as a group, swimming upstream, going against the grain, dissenting from the mainstream junk passed off as news, right? To suggest that eliminating ad hominem attacks somehow squashes dissent is mistaken or disingenuous. Disagreement (dissent) does not afford any right to make a personal attack.

Divide and conquer, distract and befuddle, disrupt and disperse - tactics used by agents to disintegrate alignment and organization of purpose. So, it's not just ad hominem attacks that the mods and admins are editing, and we may split a topic in two if someone goes off on a tangent, we may delete or edit a post that is (deliberately or accidentally) destroying the continuity of a thread, and we may remove repeat offenders from Avalon if they refuse to moderate their behavior.

There is a LOT going on in this world right this moment that deserves the focus and undivided attention of people of compassion and passion.

A model society needs toilets and sewers as much as we need windows and doors. Even though a handful of people might pat themselves on the back for 'transparency' for allowing the stinky stuff to pile up in the house, most won't and are happy to flush and move forward.

Dennis

Fair point Dennis.

[ROMANWKT]

Hi Devilpigeon nice to see you having a go, but lets have a model society based on respect, no big deal.
regards to you, hope all is well,
roman

[Second Son]

To expect a truly egalitarian society is wishfull thinking. A society by its very definition is a group of (like minded) individuals, associated together for a certain purpose. Those who would deign to govern, control, oversee, or regulate with any other criteria than enfocing the "golden rule" are of a type who believe in a regulated society with rigid boundaries which its members dare not step outside of. Surely our parameters here at Avalon are much broader than those available in a fascist or communist nation, BUT, that said we are held to others' invisible and ever-changing "system" of mores which are nothing but a control mechanism. I believe that any defamatory or profane language or porn (you can go elsewhere for that) should be summarily deleted and that anything else should be OK... but I am not a moderator, nor am I the type to ever aspire to become one, rank and status being just as distastefull to me as any control system, no matter how "progressive". Just my two cents.

All that said... I appreciate the hard work Bill and all the mods are doing here at Avalon.

Peace out.

[DevilPigeon]

Hi Devilpigeon nice to see you having a go, but lets have a model society based on respect, no big deal.
regards to you, hope all is well,
roman

Hi Roman

Yes, you're right, I let things get too complicated in my head sometimes, then look back and think "DevilPigeon, you nugget, what are you thinking?"

Hope you're well too my friend.

DP

[DeDukshyn]

I wanted to use this space just to say I think Paul and the rest of the new mods are doing an exemplary job on a what is no doubt a difficult task. I might agree with your original post on this thread if the mods (notably Paul) did not do such a great job of explaining the reasons for the edit, and do their best to not distract from intended thread content or flow. So I am 100% satisfied with the job they are doing ... now there's one post of mine I wish had been removed as I was being dramatic and had to make 7 posts of damage control :doh:-- sometimes removal of posts is for best for a thread as a whole, as it allows things to get back on track more easily ...

[grapevine]

Being a moderator/admin is not as easy as you might think.
It is sort of like being asked to walk a line, but the line is a giant razor blade, one slip and you are cactus.
There will always be those upset that you are doing too much, those that think you aren't doing enough.
The one thing that can be VERY hard to control is flamewars as a lot of people don't even realise they are in one.
That can spread like we have seen on here a few times.
I think the mods get way more right than they get wrong from what I have seen as far as posts being removed/edited.
They have removed/edited some of mine, so I am not preaching as a goody goody.
It can be difficult to know what to do when you are feeling down, not well or just angry. But it has to be done, or someone else has to and it can escalate.
The thing is, that we all see the black and white bits different, but the gray parts can be hard to sort out too.
I can't say that I agree with every thing the team do on here, but I don't expect to agree 100% with anyone but myself, so that isn't a big deal to me.

Agreed Lord Sidious. I found myself in this situation this week. But as soon as I realised I took action ...... by simply not responding. Works a treat. Just don't play ball ....

[Ross]

As a Mod in the past, the general rule was whenever an action was taken, an edit, full deletion, a move, infraction, a ban, a PM was sent to concerned party/s explaining what and why. This of course greatly reduced the questions and threads starting of "what happened"

Ross.

[ThePythonicCow]

As a Mod in the past, the general rule was whenever an action was taken, an edit, full deletion, a move, infraction, a ban, a PM was sent to concerned party/s explaining what and why. This of course greatly reduced the questions and threads starting of "what happened"

Ross.
It is still the general rule. We send a Private Message or an email, as appropriate (retired and "vacationing" members cannot receive PM's.)

[Dennis Leahy]

To expect a truly egalitarian society is wishfull thinking. A society by its very definition is a group of (like minded) individuals, associated together for a certain purpose. Those who would deign to govern, control, oversee, or regulate with any other criteria than enfocing the "golden rule" are of a type who believe in a regulated society with rigid boundaries which its members dare not step outside of. Surely our parameters here at Avalon are much broader than those available in a fascist or communist nation, BUT, that said we are held to others' invisible and ever-changing "system" of mores which are nothing but a control mechanism. I believe that any defamatory or profane language or porn (you can go elsewhere for that) should be summarily deleted and that anything else should be OK... but I am not a moderator, nor am I the type to ever aspire to become one, rank and status being just as distastefull to me as any control system, no matter how "progressive". Just my two cents.

All that said... I appreciate the hard work Bill and all the mods are doing here at Avalon.

Peace out.

Second Son,

Check out this thread: http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?19231-A-United-Website

Chicodoodoo wants to do it, and you could help make it happen.

Dennis