A United Website

[Chicodoodoo]

The United People (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?15249-United-People-an-Alternative-World-Order) idea was well received here on Avalon. Perhaps we need to take our first baby step and move it from an idea to an infant reality.

The forums at Avalon and 2012 Nexus have been working models of the kind of creative energy that united people can manifest on the Internet. These forums are awe-inspiring in nature. Can we do even better?

Imagine people creating their own website, open to all, one with minimal hierarchy, one with no censorship, one without unjustified bannings, but one with order and organization determined by the people.

Imagine the control structure -- maybe a group of moderators selected yearly by the membership. Imagine offensive posts removed only by a jury of members, and not deleted, but placed in a “Hall of Shame” thread as permanent examples of bad and frowned-upon behavior.

Imagine a united people helping each other strive ever higher in pursuit of maximizing the common good while leading themselves in a holographic and egalitarian manner using a dynamic control structure of their own making!

I’m thinking a new website may be the first step, the first working model. I’m calling for ideas, critiques, suggestions, and volunteers. I’m calling for help. Not help for me, but help for us.

We are the people, all of us. It may be time to come together and form a United People. It may be time to build a home as well. If we build it, we will come.

[andywight]

I'm in if you're have me.

[Dennis Leahy]

Hi Chicodoodoo,

You can literally have this up and operating within a day or two at the most. Figure out who the web hosting company will be, select and pay for a domain name, and sign up at a web host. (In about 6 to 24 hours you will have the nameservers properly pointed to the site URL.) In the meantime, download a free copy of phpBB forum software (has most of the same features of vBulletin, like Avalon uses, but vBulletin is $200/year, I think.) Use a free FTP program like FireFTP (works in Firefox) and upload and launch the forum software. There are hundreds if not thousands of people that will answer questions and help for free on the phpBB forum (a forum dedicated to the forum platform software.)

If you use the simple "challenge/question" functionality for forum registration, that will stop almost all of the spambot registrants.

Seriously, you can be accepting members tomorrow afternoon if you go for it right now.

Dennis

[Sierra]

Hi Chico,

Thank you so much for the PMs. I want to issue a public apology here for losing my temper with Chico on another thread that was subsequently closed. I was a pissed off old crone veering between what I thought was justified self righteous anger (you mean I STILL don't get it? Banging head on desk) and guilty sorrow humph. Shame on me.

Hugs and squashes for Chico

Sierra :hippie: tiptoeing away

[NancyV]

Chico, it sounds like a noble, idealistic and wonderful idea.....which I do not think will work well at all. My viewpoint comes from 10 years of being a forum moderator on several different fairly large forums. This was a job and I was paid pretty well for it. Being a moderator you have to check all posts to see if they comply sufficiently with the forum rules and guidelines, so you get to know how people tend to act in many different situations.

What happened with the original Camelot forum, the Avalon forum and now the Nexus forum is all very predictable and has followed exactly in the patterns I have seen since I've been on the Internet and in forums for 17 years. It doesn't matter how idealistic you are, how much good will and love you start out your forum with....unless you have rules of conduct which are enforced, the forum will degenerate into being strongly influenced by the energies put out by the most hostile, critical and angry members.

Those members need to be banned in order to maintain a somewhat pleasant atmosphere in the forum. The decision to correct, temporarily ban or fully ban members needs to be decided by the least number of people, hence the moderators and ultimately the controller/owner of the forum. A vote of the general membership would not work and would put even more work upon the volunteer moderators. In fact I am not at all in favor of a democratically run website. What if the majority want some porno on the website, or something equally offensive to a large number of members? Will you let the majority rule then?

This Avalon website was formed by one person with help from his supporters to fulfill his agenda, not our agendas. We all have an agenda and your agenda to have a democratically run forum would be a good experiment for you to do on your own website. You will learn that you will have to step in, or SOMEONE will have to step in to make a sensible decision quickly, and not wait for a vote from members, many of whom will be ill informed of all the repercussions of their vote.

Whenever you have a large group of people in a forum there will usually be, and certainly needs to exist, a hierarchy. Those who happen to be compulsive moderator types will naturally step in and help those who need help. The owner of the website, if he's smart, will easily be able to see who would make a good moderator and will ask them to help officially. Voting on moderators would not be a good idea at all, in my opinion. Most people vote according to how much they like a person's ideas, not how good a moderator they would make. So the popular people, not necessarily the most qualified, would win the votes and be appointed as moderators. This would not work.

What you are in essence suggesting is that Bill give up control of his website and turn it over to.... who??? You and your ideas??? I don't see that happening. But that is just my opinion, my experience of how things run most efficiently on a forum and my outlook on a "democratic" website. I much prefer a benevolent dictatorship and we are lucky to have a very benevolent dictator in Bill Ryan.

Nancy :)
PS: okay, maybe you ARE suggesting that you will open a NEW website when I thought your suggestions were for this website. LOL.... but I will leave my post as if you DO actually do a website in the way you envision, maybe some of what I said will come in handy. You can look back on my post and say "I guess it worked out the way she said it would". LOL...

[Heather2017]

Hi Chico,

Thank you so much for the PMs. I want to issue a public apology here for losing my temper with Chico on another thread that was subsequently closed. I was a pissed off old crone veering between what I thought was justified self righteous anger (you mean I STILL don't get it? Banging head on desk) and guilty sorrow humph. Shame on me.

Hugs and squashes for Chico

Sierra :hippie: tiptoeing away

God bless you, Sierra. Greatly respect your issuing a public apology! :biggrin:

Heather

[Mr54]

Chico, it sounds like a noble, idealistic and wonderful idea.....which I do not think will work well at all. My viewpoint comes from 10 years of being a forum moderator on several different fairly large forums. This was a job and I was paid pretty well for it. Being a moderator you have to check all posts to see if they comply sufficiently with the forum rules and guidelines, so you get to know how people tend to act in many different situations.


What you are in essence suggesting is that Bill give up control of his website and turn it over to.... who??? You and your ideas??? I don't see that happening. But that is just my opinion, my experience of how things run most efficiently on a forum and my outlook on a "democratic" website. I much prefer a benevolent dictatorship and we are lucky to have a very benevolent dictator in Bill Ryan.

Nancy :)
PS: okay, maybe you ARE suggesting that you will open a NEW website when I thought your suggestions were for this website. LOL.... but I will leave my post as if you DO actually do a website in the way you envision, maybe some of what I said will come in handy. You can look back on my post and say "I guess it worked out the way she said it would". LOL...


Hi NancyV,

I think that it's pretty clear what Chicodoodoo is proposing if you actually read the meat of his post. I don't think he was proposing that the founder of this site give up the keys and log book as it were. I for one can fully understand the aspiration of setting up a Utopian meeting place for equals where there is no hierarchy or pecking order. For if the history of the human race tells us anything it is that these structures are always susceptible to subversion by those who inhabit the higher echelon's even when these structures are born from high ideals.

[Nasu]

Hi Chicodoodoo

I think it is an excellent idea, I am concerned by NancyV's post though, this is my first forum and barring exclusion was going to be my last, I am a forum virgin and see alot of sense born from experience in her words. Could it be as simple as you portrayed or would it degenerate as NancyV has observed, I would like to believe in the power of the human spirit to overcome such tendencies, especially if it was a working model, but history seems to point otherwise. Personally, having been an observer of 2012 Nexus over the past few weeks I feel that Avalon covers more topics and seems to have more in-depth posts by its members, aside from that though the members are still searching for the same answers, like many here I think, I am done with the bickering and comparisons between them both, they are clearly different yet obviously similar. It amused me to note on Nexus several posts regarding the exclusivity of Avalon, in a negative way, I presume by ousted members.

I am unsure how to set up the model without an overseeing body of watchers / enforcers / mods / et al, but like andywight, am in if you'd have me. Is there no way offer Bill a similar model to the one you describe, keeping the ownership and mods in place of course, but offer the SHAME thread and volunteer jury as you mentioned? Great post, as a community we must find a way to coexist and make it work, especially given the topics we are all discussing and the rebellious nature of those who have found their way to here, to now, if we can't do it in the digital sphere how can we hope to do it on the ground. N

[Dennis Leahy]

I am a founder and admin on another forum (nothing like this, it's about guitar making), but that site has been up for close to three years, and I have done more moderating here in the past week than in the entire history of that other site.

What Chicodoodoo is proposing could work. It will depend entirely on who the members are as to whether it does work. Even further down the egalitarian road, the United People Forum (or whatever name is used) could ask members to all take turns moderating, sort of like jury duty, and all could vote on whether a thread was to be moved to the Hall of Shame (it should be exceedingly rare, if there is no censorship.)

Breaking down the final wall of hierarchical structure in the forum would be to make every member an admin - every person would have full control over the background functionality of the forum, and would take turns performing the duties of admins, not just the function of mods. That would take trust, because a disgruntled member could delete everything, but to actually make it all the way to holographic, you'd need to have that level of trust and you'd need every member to have the skills to perform admin duties. (Admin duties would be very light once the forum was set up the way everyone wants it.)

I think it is a worthy experiment. I actually have a good feeling that it could succeed, that everyone would indeed rise to the challenge of being worthy of that degree of trust. I admit to being a romantic, but really, the only thing that would spoil it would be a member or members that were hell-bent on forcing you to prove you won't censor or ban them, or an 'agent' that deletes the database when they are the admin. (You could even make a weekly database backup, just in case someone "pushes the wrong button, "accidentally".)

Dennis

{edit} Let me add that I don't want anyone to leave, I'm assuming this would be an additional forum, not a replacement forum. For example: As for me, in addition to the guitarmaking forum I helped found, I'm a member at two other guitarmaking forums and am active with hundreds of posts. I really think that this broadens my perspective, and there is cross-sharing across forums. So, I would hope that is what Chicodoodoo is thinking too.

[Nasu]

Thanks Dennis

I am thinking additional forum, not replacement, a worthy experiment I think. I would be happy to throw some bucks into making it happen. I am personally a bit apprehensive of the idea of having the technical abilities to be an admin, but like the idea of regular back-ups in order to save and preserve things in case of dark agents or mishap. United People Forum has a good ring to it, UPF! N

[Feren]

An experiment... just to see waht happens, for those who believe in anarchy.

I wonder if someone might try to found a site with no formal hierarchy, no control system.

The founder of the site would be able only to take two kind of decitions: one, if the experiment fails, to close down the site. And two, who's let in.
No one could ban or be banned.

The experiment would fail if:

a) Someone use it for illegal stuff.
b) If one member insults, denigrates, dishonour or disrespect another one and this one responds the same.
c) If one member insults dishonour, denigrates, or disrespect another one and doesn't recognize the need to apologize.
d) If the founder decideS to stablish hierarchy or control beyond the two possibilities mentioned above.

These are not rules: only the conditions that make the experiment possible. Actually, IN A CERTAIN WAY, there are not rules in this experiment.

Just a thought... leave it, take it or modify it as you will. I'm pretty aware it's not a complete thought. But it might be tried out.

[NancyV]

Chico, it sounds like a noble, idealistic and wonderful idea.....which I do not think will work well at all. My viewpoint comes from 10 years of being a forum moderator on several different fairly large forums. This was a job and I was paid pretty well for it. Being a moderator you have to check all posts to see if they comply sufficiently with the forum rules and guidelines, so you get to know how people tend to act in many different situations.


What you are in essence suggesting is that Bill give up control of his website and turn it over to.... who??? You and your ideas??? I don't see that happening. But that is just my opinion, my experience of how things run most efficiently on a forum and my outlook on a "democratic" website. I much prefer a benevolent dictatorship and we are lucky to have a very benevolent dictator in Bill Ryan.

Nancy :)
PS: okay, maybe you ARE suggesting that you will open a NEW website when I thought your suggestions were for this website. LOL.... but I will leave my post as if you DO actually do a website in the way you envision, maybe some of what I said will come in handy. You can look back on my post and say "I guess it worked out the way she said it would". LOL...


Hi NancyV,

I think that it's pretty clear what Chicodoodoo is proposing if you actually read the meat of his post. I don't think he was proposing that the founder of this site give up the keys and log book as it were. I for one can fully understand the aspiration of setting up a Utopian meeting place for equals where there is no hierarchy or pecking order. For if the history of the human race tells us anything it is that these structures are always susceptible to subversion by those who inhabit the higher echelon's even when these structures are born from high ideals.
Yes, Mr54, it is pretty obvious except when you're in the middle of a brain glitch! (as I apparently was) LOL... I also can understand the desire to set up a forum with no pecking order and I wish anyone great luck who attempts to do it. I don't see my view that such a forum would end up chaotic and have to revert to having stricter rules enforced as pessimistic though. I see it as realistic because of my many years of observation of human behavior in groups, both online and offline.

Many in the spiritual/alternative online communities can be VERY strongly opinionated and differences of opinions can sometimes create passionate and occasionally nasty conflicts. This is behavior that is moderated in a well run forum for the benefit of all members. No group of people will ever agree on much of anything. I would not be inclined to participate in any sort of egalitarian Utopian type community experiment. I have already tried this type of community idea and philosophy before and seen the inevitable results of such experiments. whoever does try it will undoubtedly have fun and learn a lot.

Nancy :)

[Mr54]

Yes, Mr54, it is pretty obvious except when you're in the middle of a brain glitch! (as I apparently was) LOL... I also can understand the desire to set up a forum with no pecking order and I wish anyone great luck who attempts to do it. I don't see my view that such a forum would end up chaotic and have to revert to having stricter rules enforced as pessimistic though. I see it as realistic because of my many years of observation of human behavior in groups, both online and offline.

Many in the spiritual/alternative online communities can be VERY strongly opinionated and differences of opinions can sometimes create passionate and occasionally nasty conflicts. This is behavior that is moderated in a well run forum for the benefit of all members. No group of people will ever agree on much of anything. I would not be inclined to participate in any sort of egalitarian Utopian type community experiment. I have already tried this type of community idea and philosophy before and seen the inevitable results of such experiments. whoever does try it will undoubtedly have fun and learn a lot.

Nancy :)

Hi NancyV,


It happens to me all the time! And to be honest I actually agree with you in that the human frailties that make pyramid type human organisations susceptible to subversion would be amplified tenfold if everyone were actually equal within an organisation. It always seems to come back to the current inadequacy of human beings and human communication. The only hope I can see is for an evolution rather than a revolution..................

[Fred259]

All ships need a compass, and a captain to steer the ship. Other officers assist the captain steering the ship, but you still need a captain. You also need a steady compass.

Bill’s ship is largely run by the officers (the mods) or so it would seem. However Bill is the captain and sometimes command decisions require to be made.

Direction, command and control are very important. Control is just as important as command.

This is a true story. Around twenty years ago perhaps, a British Airways 747 was approaching Montréal in fog. The captain started behaving strangely and so the first officer and flight engineer relieved the captain of his command. It was a very serious incident.

After landing a major argument broke out, which ended with the captain refusing to fly with his crew. A fresh crew was positioned north from New York. By now London was heavily involved.

When they all arrived back in London a round table meeting was called. BA management and company medical doctors attended the meeting and later it was decided the three crew should have a medical examination. It was during the Captains examination that they found he was suffering from a brain hemorrhage. He received treatment for this, saving his life, and later when he was well he returned to work.

During the Montréal incident at all times control was maintained, and so I do think that NancyV makes some very valid points. Mr54 and his point on subversion are equally valid.

I guess the Avalon model is just about right…and Mods no no, I’m not suggesting you relieve Bill of his command!

[Chicodoodoo]

You can literally have this up and operating within a day or two at the most.

Thank you, Dennis! This is very helpful information that I will be looking into it (and learning!). My son has a hosting service that I may be able to use, so I will consult with him, too (as soon as I can catch him).


I think it is a worthy experiment. I actually have a good feeling that it could succeed, that everyone would indeed rise to the challenge of being worthy of that degree of trust.

There would still be some basic rules, but it will require some trust in people to interpret and enforce the rules appropriately. Rule #1 might be "Do no harm." Rule # 2 might be "Do not treat others in ways you would not like to be treated."

There would still be some minimal hierarchy as well, like administrators and moderators. They would be like the specialized organs of the body, functioning to maximize the common good. What would be different might be new specialized organs to deal with rogue cells (posters) that are not operating in the best interests of the body (e.g. causing harm) -- an immune system, so to speak. That is one of the weaknesses of Avalon that we have seen recently -- the immune system is overactive and under-regulated, attacking the body's own cells and causing harm.


I'm assuming this would be an additional forum, not a replacement forum.

Yes, I definitely had in mind an additional forum, a place where all of our divided and scattered companions can reunite.

[Chicodoodoo]

Chico, it sounds like a noble, idealistic and wonderful idea.....which I do not think will work well at all.

Thanks, Nancy. I did ask for critiques, and I appreciate the value of your experience and your comments. It is very important to be realistic and also be aware of the potential pitfalls any design might encounter. The challenge is to incorporate the best of current forum administration while correcting the historical flaws of all the forums that have damaged themselves.


What happened with the original Camelot forum, the Avalon forum and now the Nexus forum is all very predictable and has followed exactly in the patterns I have seen since I've been on the Internet and in forums for 17 years.

Yes, I agree -- those that do not know history are doomed to repeat it. We know the history, now we must determine what should have been done differently.


It doesn't matter how idealistic you are, how much good will and love you start out your forum with....unless you have rules of conduct which are enforced, the forum will degenerate into being strongly influenced by the energies put out by the most hostile, critical and angry members.

Agreed. We all know there must be some rules. I am not calling for anarchy. What I am calling for is fewer rules, simpler rules, more member participation in policing (like a neighborhood watch), and effective ways to prevent abuse of power.


The decision to correct, temporarily ban or fully ban members needs to be decided by the least number of people, hence the moderators and ultimately the controller/owner of the forum. A vote of the general membership would not work and would put even more work upon the volunteer moderators. In fact I am not at all in favor of a democratically run website. What if the majority want some porno on the website, or something equally offensive to a large number of members? Will you let the majority rule then?

This is indeed important. The least number of people needed for policing is one, essentially a dictator. The greatest number is everyone. Both extremes have their problems. Somewhere in between is the proper balance. Our challenge is to find it.


You will learn that you will have to step in, or SOMEONE will have to step in to make a sensible decision quickly, and not wait for a vote from members, many of whom will be ill informed of all the repercussions of their vote.

I've already learned that, and I agree with your basic point. I'm not proposing that all decisions be made democratically. I always have a model in mind based on the evolutionary progression of living bodies, which start out as collections of cooperating cells that eventually form specialized organs that efficiently serve the common good. It's a tried and true model that we would be wise to copy and improve. There is a hierarchy of sorts in the body, but it is minimal, with only one level of separation (i.e. specialized organs are made up of cooperating cells).

So don't think of it as a "democratic" website. Think of it as a "cooperative" website.

[Chicodoodoo]

All ships need a compass, and a captain to steer the ship. Other officers assist the captain steering the ship, but you still need a captain. You also need a steady compass.

The tendency is to think inside the box. We all compare to what we know. A ship's command structure is something we know, and when it is properly balanced, it can work well. But then there are the mutinies, which tell us that the command structure has inherent flaws that are not properly regulated.

Pirate ships tried different things with their command structures to improve crew cooperation and minimize volatile conditions that lead to mutiny. Their flexibility allowed them to try things that the rigid military mindsets steeped in hierarchy could not allow. The pirates had the option to think outside the box. They demonstrated that little hierarchy was needed to sail a vessel with great skill. If the pirates hadn't been hunted down and destroyed for other reasons, some of their unconventional ideas for operating a ship might have changed the way sailing vessels are controlled.

[andywight]

Agreed. We all know there must be some rules. I am not calling for anarchy. What I am calling for is fewer rules, simpler rules, more member participation in policing (like a neighborhood watch), and effective ways to prevent abuse of power.

We should all take inspiration and be guided by the wise words of the great philosopher Winnie the Pooh, who simply said, Simplest is Bestest.

I live on a small Island of approx 16,000 people with one traffic light, in a country where there is no income tax and very little government interference.
It works for me! so I'm sure it would also work for a forum.

The dogmas "we're all too different", "people can never get along together", etc,etc... were put there long ago by the Sociopathic PTB to control you, IMNSHfO ;)

[NancyV]

Agreed. We all know there must be some rules. I am not calling for anarchy. What I am calling for is fewer rules, simpler rules, more member participation in policing (like a neighborhood watch), and effective ways to prevent abuse of power.

We should all take inspiration and be guided by the wise words of the great philosopher Winnie the Pooh, who simply said, Simplest is Bestest.

I live on a small Island of approx 16,000 people with one traffic light, in a country where there is no income tax and very little government interference.
It works for me! so I'm sure it would also work for a forum.

The dogmas "we're all too different", "people can never get along together", etc,etc... were put there long ago by the Sociopathic PTB to control you, IMNSHfO ;)
Hey Andy, I love your Internet Acronym: IMNSHfO but I do have one question. I know what most of it means... In My Not So Humble f Opinion. But what does the F stand for? I could guess but my mind usually goes to the obvious so if you would tell me what it stands for I would appreciate it. LOL.. I usually use IMNSHO because I know that my opinion is absolutely NOT humble, as most opinions are not humble.

I have lived in some very small towns out in the middle of nowhere, some with only one stop sign. It is often easier to get along with people when you have a lot of room to be who you are without anyone telling you what to do or trying to control your behaviors. People who have few restrictions in small towns do seem to get along better in many cases, as long as they mind their own business. You're lucky to live in the Bahamas. I love it there and have had fun diving in the Bahamas the several times I've gone. It's gorgeous.

One difference about behaviors on the Internet is an interesting phenomenon I have observed where people who may tend to repress themselves or moderate their behaviors in person to person interactions find out how freeing it is to have interactions on the Internet. This can manifest in some of their nastier personality traits coming out when they realize that there are few repercussions, like someone punching them in the face, if they express their anger or hostility in less than acceptable ways. Maybe this is actually good therapy for these types of personalities, but it can make for a rather unpleasant experience for those who get to see their words in a forum. So an Internet forum may need more enforced rules for acceptable behavior than a real life neighborhood. Lack of enforced discipline can be a good thing and also a bad thing at the same time.

Whomever starts a forum is always the one who decides what behavior he wants to enforce or encourage and what behavior he will not permit. Chico is already saying there will be some sort of rules enforced but "fewer rules". I would like to place a bet that there will be more and more rules evolving as the experiment progresses when there is a need to respond to the different personality types that will participate in the forum. This is exactly what has happened and is still happening in Camelot and Avalon forums. They are evolving. the more people who join, the more personality types there are and the more the rules must evolve and change. Same thing is going to happen in Nexus. Someone is going to get tired of all the personal attacks continuing over there and there will be some arguments if a few people don't stop with their carping and slimy ad hominem attacks. Someone will eventually step in to enforce some kind of rule. They may even say STOP or we'll have to unsubscribe you.

All forums evolve and change. I've never seen one stay the same no matter HOW they started out. My husband runs a large forum for gamers from all over the world for a particular online game: Call of Duty. They used to let members vote on who they would accept into the group as an actual member, not just a guest player. He put a stop to that when he took over as the "commander" because the teenagers had a tendency to vote in the most obnoxious and foul mouthed type players, who also tended to be hackers more often. Now he is the one with the final word on who gets to join. So he is basically the dictator and often bans several people every week! He's definitely NOT as benevolent a dictator as our Bill Ryan! LOL... But now his forum is extremely well run. Parents are happy to have their teens play there because foul language is not allowed and hackers are not welcome. Semi decent behavior is enforced. Voting OFTEN does not work.

Chico, please keep us informed of how your experiment progresses! I do so love to say "I told you so". That is a nasty little ego trip, I know, but it can be so much fun! LOL... If your experiment works well I will also be happy to say "you were right and I was wrong". I've gotten very good at that in the years I've been married to my present husband because he is so ANNOYINGLY right so DARNED often!

Nancy :)

[Chicodoodoo]

I would like to place a bet that there will be more and more rules evolving as the experiment progresses when there is a need to respond to the different personality types that will participate in the forum. This is exactly what has happened and is still happening in Camelot and Avalon forums.

This is also what has been happening to the United States. For over two hundred years, Congress has been creating more and more laws, essentially non-stop. We are drowning in uncountable laws. A single piece of Congressional legislation today can be over 1000 pages. It takes entire libraries to hold the United States Code alone. It's a good bet that any law-making endeavor will grow without limits.

Does it have to be this way? Is there no way to solve this ridiculous problem? Do all forums rely on an ever-expanding collection of rules?

Yesterday, I found what may be a real working example of the KISS principle ("Keep It Simple, Stufus"). Maybe there is a better way (http://nexus.2012info.ca/forum/showthread.php?1671-They-canceled-my-membership&p=13051#post13051).

[andywight]

Hey Andy, I love your Internet Acronym: IMNSHfO but I do have one question. I know what most of it means... In My Not So Humble f Opinion. But what does the F stand for? I could guess but my mind usually goes to the obvious so if you would tell me what it stands for I would appreciate it. LOL..

Hi Miss Nancy,

I guess this is off topic a bit but you asked! Hope this little inspirational video clears things for you. :kiss:

http://www.metacafe.com/watch/372665/the_history_of_the_word_****/

[Feren]

I believe, from what I observe in nature --of course it depends on a certain point of view-- that order comes out of hierarchy.
In our societies (including the society taht exists in a ship) hierarchy seems to come out of degenerate schemes and valuations. Based on the idea of a "free", "sovereign" individual whose biggest problem is that he is in a war with the restof free sovereign individuals.
To get out of it we might need a different idea of freedom,individuality and society. We need to feel those things differently.
"Ego", as we might call this idea/feeling of individuality, is just the top of the actual individual hierarchy. But there is hierarchy beyond individuality and the overcoming of Ego is the result of this awareness.
Is that possible? To believe in a non egocentric/anthropomorphic hierarchy? A more "natural" hierarchy? Is it possible to simply let hierarchy be as it comes from the nature?
Well, what? Is there a single nature?

[enfoldedblue]

I think this is a great idea. I know a lot of people think this sort of forum would degenerate into chaos, but I feel that energies are shifting, and what didn't work in the past might just work now. I really feel we are at a point in our evolution where it is now crucial that we learn to work together in a transparent, free, communal structure…or we are in serious trouble. As I said in another post ...there will inevitably be teething problems as we move away from more authoritarian approaches to more egalitarian ones, but with enough good people on board it could work…at worst it would be an interesting experiment.

One idea that could be tossed around is the addition of an ‘abuse’ button (probably someone could come up with a better name). It would be like the 'thanks' button, but opposite. I imagine this would allow for significantly less moderation because it would allow each person to have a say. These points could accumulate like 'thanks' , but accruing a certain amount might result in suspension. I know this is not ideal, but would be more democratic.

Anyway this is the kind of ‘experiment’ I would love to be involved in.

Thanks for posting.

[NancyV]

I believe, from what I observe in nature --of course it depends on a certain point of view-- that order comes out of hierarchy.
In our societies (including the society taht exists in a ship) hierarchy seems to come out of degenerate schemes and valuations. Based on the idea of a "free", "sovereign" individual whose biggest problem is that he is in a war with the restof free sovereign individuals.
To get out of it we might need a different idea of freedom,individuality and society. We need to feel those things differently.
"Ego", as we might call this idea/feeling of individuality, is just the top of the actual individual hierarchy. But there is hierarchy beyond individuality and the overcoming of Ego is the result of this awareness.
Is that possible? To believe in a non egocentric/anthropomorphic hierarchy? A more "natural" hierarchy? Is it possible to simply let hierarchy be as it comes from the nature?
Well, what? Is there a single nature?
Hierarchies in nature are often quite brutal. Competition for the most powerful position in the hierarchy is fierce and can result in much killing. Many animal species, including man, have dominance hierarchical structures. It's completely natural and I don't see it changing any time soon. With most species a dominant male often kills off weaker males. One of the good outcomes of this is that the weaker males do not propagate their genes resulting in even weaker offspring. It's a species survival mechanism and totally natural.

The way we live in most human social structures today is what is more unnatural. There is no longer much natural selection in effect to clean out the gene pool. It's too easy for extremely damaged humans to survive and create even more damaged offspring. If there were to be some kind of apocalypse, only the strong would survive, or those who have strong men to protect them. It would quickly revert to the survival of the fittest again. That's just the way it is here on this earth when you're in a body living with others of your kind.

When you're out of body there are also attempts to control, take energy, manipulate, etc. on many levels. It's not just here. I would suspect that most alien species also have a type of hierarchical structure and competition of one kind or another. There are beings who seem to be mostly filled with love and competition is not present. We can reach that point as we travel into higher vibrational frequencies and levels, but the world our body lives in remains one of competition and hierarchical structures.

[dendraw]

Hi All, I am blown away by this thread! There's something on the move here and maybe I've been lucky enough to tap into it! What I mean is, on another site (of which I'm a member), there was a thread started by one who became aware of an incident pertaining to an individual who was being monitored by police. Long story short, the police acted before they had enough information and stormed this persons house, dragged him out of bed, verbally assaulted him and so on......they got the wrong person! There were several other incidents noted that made an impact on the poster, enough so to start a thread that asked the question "What is happening to America?" I chimed in with a personal experience of my own, also with the police. What I thought was interesting was we both came up with the same question of "the illusion of freedom" in our country. That night as I went to bed, I couldn't get this out of my head. This thread really stuck with me because I had been thinking about this question prior to reading it on this other site. Well my waking thoughts the next morning came in the form of what can WE do?! I remember seeing some videos on here I thought were EXCELLENT in that whether or not one agrees with the point being made, there was some element of TRUTH to it and that makes it provocative.....if just that one little element can be put out there....enough for the general masses to see. Then the next thought was to somehow utilize the internet. I remember hearing an interview where the interviewee stated "the internet is like the wild west right now" and if this is the case, this untamed field of energy can be harnessed and utilized for the benefit of all. And if enough of US put our heads together, GREAT things can happen! In thinking about some of these previously mentioned vids., a name for the site came to mind...."We're onto you!" Don't know if that sounds corny or not, but that's what came to my mind. Whatever the case, when I came back to you wonderfully creative people here and saw this thread, I thought "what the ****?!" To me, this is an example of how we really are connected.....you know like minded!!!! Anyway, there's my 5 cents worth (prices are going up even for opinions!!!:lol: Love to all, D.

[Fred259]

Go for it Chico, enfoldenblue, NancyV, dendrew and me that’s four in little over an hour, or one every fifteen minutes, does that not tell you something.

Your earlier thread Alternative Society was a top hit on the forum, so many who contributed on that thread who are no longer here will support you.

[Buchanan561]

It seems that I posted this in the wrong thread. So I have copied it here. So now you have it twice. Bottom line is the message is the same. You go for it. The website. A United Website.

"Create it and they will come. "

http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?15249-United-People-an-Alternative-World-Order/page20

Re: A United Website

hi Chico, I have been up for a long time and now need to go and sleep. To be honest I have never read this thread before except when you first started it and then only a few pages when I got dragged off to something else.

Any way, am going to take the time out and read this thread. Both of them. One is long, the other short. I just read some of the posts that were made on another thread where you were posting a few days ago. It was good by to Icecold thread.

I agree with Dennis Leahy and others. I think you should go for it. You have what it takes to be able to bring something like this through. It will work with YOU at the wheel. I can see it already. My Love to you and yours.....Emma

[Chicodoodoo]

You go for it. The website. A United Website.

OK, here's the first stab at it. I've never done anything like this before, so I welcome all the help I can get. I'm sure there will be growing pains, challenges, and who knows what else, but the first step has been made. May it be a long and prosperous journey.

United People website (http://united-people.tk)

[Nasu]

I would like to place a bet that there will be more and more rules evolving as the experiment progresses when there is a need to respond to the different personality types that will participate in the forum. This is exactly what has happened and is still happening in Camelot and Avalon forums.

This is also what has been happening to the United States. For over two hundred years, Congress has been creating more and more laws, essentially non-stop. We are drowning in uncountable laws. A single piece of Congressional legislation today can be over 1000 pages. It takes entire libraries to hold the United States Code alone. It's a good bet that any law-making endeavor will grow without limits.

Does it have to be this way? Is there no way to solve this ridiculous problem? Do all forums rely on an ever-expanding collection of rules?

Yesterday, I found what may be a real working example of the KISS principle ("Keep It Simple, Stufus"). Maybe there is a better way (http://nexus.2012info.ca/forum/showthread.php?1671-They-canceled-my-membership&p=13051#post13051).

I totally agree, rules beget rules. Just look at any founding principle, the constitution, the Magna-carta, the ten commandments, all have started simply and ended up as huge tomes, unknowable to any one individual.

Better to have guides me thinks, a guide is coming from learnt wisdom, we can choose to take it or leave it or take bits and make up our own way. A guide is flexible and grey but a rule is black and white and inflexible, leaving our only defense for our actions in the minutiae of the laws that have accumulated over time, looking for precedent or loophole to prove our case.

Straying from a guide is a given, our defense then simply becomes our explanation of the situation from our persective, at that point our understanding or good judgement can be questioned or judged by a selection of our peers.

It is part of our rebellious and inquisitive nature to want to do that which we are told not to. I see it in very clear focus in my toddler son, I often tell him not to have too much fun, or not to do this or that, in short the things I want him to do. He wants to rebel against me and so does my bidding unknowingly and with his own consent.

I wonder how much the boys and girls in the back room use that very principle against us.. N

[Chicodoodoo]

Better to have guides me thinks, a guide is coming from learnt wisdom, we can choose to take it or leave it or take bits and make up our own way. A guide is flexible and grey but a rule is black and white and inflexible, leaving our only defense for our actions in the minutiae of the laws that have accumulated over time, looking for precedent or loophole to prove our case.

Well stated, Nasu. I chose the Physician's Creed and the Golden Rule as the foundation of the rules for United People. There is the flexibility (or the uncertainty) of determining what exactly is "harm", or what exactly is "what you would not like", but that indistinctness is what gives these guides their universal appeal and power. They put the rules in our hands, the hands of the people, which is exactly where they must reside to ensure fairness and justice.

It is worth noting that I also chose the Physician's Creed and the Golden Rule as the foundation of my life. I've yet to have reason to regret that decision.

[Peacelovinman]

I live on a small Island of approx 16,000 people with one traffic light, in a country where there is no income tax and very little government interference.
It works for me! so I'm sure it would also work for a forum.



Sounds great. You got room for a small one??

[Nasu]

Better to have guides me thinks, a guide is coming from learnt wisdom, we can choose to take it or leave it or take bits and make up our own way. A guide is flexible and grey but a rule is black and white and inflexible, leaving our only defense for our actions in the minutiae of the laws that have accumulated over time, looking for precedent or loophole to prove our case.

Well stated, Nasu. I chose the Physician's Creed and the Golden Rule as the foundation of the rules for United People. There is the flexibility (or the uncertainty) of determining what exactly is "harm", or what exactly is "what you would not like", but that indistinctness is what gives these guides their universal appeal and power. They put the rules in our hands, the hands of the people, which is exactly where they must reside to ensure fairness and justice.

It is worth noting that I also chose the Physician's Creed and the Golden Rule as the foundation of my life. I've yet to have reason to regret that decision.

Thanks. I read that on the website, very good. Someone posted a link to the meritocracy party, I thought it got a bit wordy, but the first few guides seemed appropriate, in conjunction with the golden rule and the physician's creed.. as long as we are talking guides not rules, the quantity is less of a concern... N

http://www.meritocracy.org.uk/page2.htm

NO NEPOTISM

1) It's not who your parents are, it's who you are.

NO CRONYISM

2) It's not what others can do for you, it's what you can do.

NO DISCRIMINATION

3) Sex, race, religion, age, background are irrelevant. Talent is everything.

EQUAL OPPORTUNITIES

4) You start from the same point as everyone else, and you go as far as your talents take you.

REWARDING MERIT

5) The highest rewards for the highest achievers.

[Chicodoodoo]

http://www.meritocracy.org.uk/page2.htm


Very interesting site! It could easily be a long-lost relative of the United People (http://united-people.tk) website! I will be adding it to the "Links" page there.

More and more people are joining together to address the insane structure behind the so-called "modern" world. Just as each individual is a cell that can join with others to form a more capable body, these organizations of cells are like specialized organs that can also cooperate together to create a more capable body.

[Flash]

Wow, I cannot be more than enthousiastic about this. Here what I posted in another thread yesterday:


Re: Early retirement or not?
there it is, you stay, too many "you stay" requests.

Out of fun, a crazy idea, maybe we should all, i mean all, subscribe to both forums. They would then have merged through the desire of the members. Knowing this is most probably impossible to achieve.
It certainly would solve your writer's block.

This United Web could be kind of an organic multicellular organism, each body part having some kind of naturally selected specialty. It could also be like the Resistance in the last war. Could not be destroyed because if was cellular. However, here, we would be talking about organically organised cells of the new united web.

Wouldn't it be, by any chance, what the 33 were afraid could be happening with or through or because of Avalon?

[dendraw]

Chico, HOW did you do this so fast?!!! My brain is spinning! Holy Mackerel! I can't wait to check it out in the morn. It's very late and am off to bed. Just wanted to say "Congratulations Brother"!!! Cheers, D.:high5:

[1159]

From a technical POV, there is no problem building a websites, or even multiple websites where individual people or groups can amalgamate on the home page. The moderation issue can also be well handled, even allowing the community to vote-up or vote-down comments, posts etc. We can even build a complete community portal with all the social networking features. As an example see my signature line. (NOT a plug!)

Ultimately, this is not about a 'virtual building', it's about a community of people that 'live in it.' Whether that community responds and thrives depends on many factors. I think Camelot and Avalon are already doing a great job providing a community for like minded people. The control structure is what we impose on it and how it self-moderates naturally. That is part we cannot control easily, as it is governed by the energy that runs in the critical mass of the people.

The community goes through phases that change that energy. We saw that most clearly after the interview with 'Charles'. Such things cannot be avoided in an organic structure.

What I'm interested in is the concept of a 'clearing house' to filter the 'real stories' from the wild fantasies and mischievous trouble making that sometimes occurs. If some people want to engage in fun and frolics, that's fine and some good can come out of this, although I don't believe it is very efficient. However, those that want to constructively map out a model for new consciousness should have the space to do this uninterrupted by the noise of others in the playground.

There is a way to do this and it does involve a process of 'natural selection'. The real builders tend to gather their tools and materials, separate from the playground and look for a place to get down to work. They want a safe space to really thrash out the bottom line of how to do things properly. They want a think-tank and a building plot to work out real working models for life.

In my experience, this cannot happen easily in a public forum. For a start, there are issues that are best not aired for the world to see. That is NOT being secretive, any more than wanting a crap in a private cubicle is secretive. It's simply a better way to deal with sensitive issues. It's also a way to politely allow those that want to play around, argue, troll and flame to do so, while others quietly do something else.

Secondly, the process of design and build needs a different environment from the critical process of debate and news gathering.

Recognizing that different environments are appropriate for different tasks is not wrong. Secrecy and privacy have been badly mixed up and we need to bite the bullet and see that there is a correct place for background preparations.

This is my summary of it.
Public forums, posts, comments, polls are essential for throwing everything into the air and seeing what lands. Someone needs to pick up the useful material and filter it away from the other stuff people who want to refine, define, and really drill down on some of this useful material should be able to do so in a safe space, with like minded people, without distractions. A private forum, or one that is only for constructive assembly is one way to provide this space.

[Peace of Mind]

Nice thread Chicodoo…


I love to see us strive.
As for a forum idea…

I believe freedom of speech is vital to the Human species advancement, it allows all parties involved to express themselves accurately. Also, I believe a level of respect is warranted to the integrity of the site and its operators. With that said, it is in my strong opinion that a voting system should be implemented in regards to who is banned or deemed destructive to the actual cause. For instance, There’s a feature here (PA) where people can give thanks to each post in the forum. Do you think it will be a good idea to have another feature where a member can be voted off by the community? Let’s say members are accredited a certain amount of points, every time a member is seen as being negative to the forums guidelines he/she will lose a point for each vote…which will be done by the community. In this case the member will either shape up or be shipped out. There would be no concerns on the disbarment because he/she were giving ample warnings by the tallying of votes, it was a collective effort.

The negative member should not be sour about his/her dismissal because he/she was never really part of the community… where the proof will be giving by the voting results accumulated over time. IMO, this protects the honor of the site and its participants. The barred member would know he/she was there wasting their time and others…and will move on in their lives knowing exactly why…possibly gaining a valuable learning experience to take with them.

I would suggest something like this for (PA) but it’s not my call. I also would suggest that all banned members be issued a return invite (if they want) but, only if the feature I mentioned was installed first. There’s so much we can learn from each other but the constant division over ideologies will never get us any where. The need to control dialogue is a detriment, hindering only the very thing we want.... Freedom.

It's clear that we are still learning and growing; I just want to know when we will start acting like we care about our future. We can easily do this by giving ourselves every available chance possible.

This post is just my opinion and the idea is primed to be expanded on…

Peace