How to Know a Fake Guru When You Meet One

[andywight]

Every now and then someone writes me about some guru or meditation or New Age fad and then asks my opinion. I don't have time to answer stuff like that and deprive people of their naughty incomes. My teacher would always refuse comment, too. People who don't have any wisdom always get cheated even if you tell them so. Nevertheless, so that YOU don't get cheated, here's what you have to discover.

Having psychic abilities or superpowers does not mean someone is more spiritual than people without superpowers and psychic abilities. Ghosts and demons have superpowers, so what does having them prove about anyone's state of virtue or spirituality?

[More... (http://www.meditationexpert.com/life-wisdom/l_how_to_recognize_a_fake_guru_or_false_prophet.htm)]

Have any members here had an experience with Fake Guru or spiritual teacher?

If so please post them here. :o

[Anchor]

I'd say to some extent all external sources of teaching are distorted - especially at the level where written words and language are concerned.

You may read what I wrote, but understand something quite different to what I was trying to say.

Even the "good" teachers get misunderstood.

It is all experience. At the end of the day - nobody other than yourself is responsible for sorting it all out.

Teachers, good and bad, are catalysts to help that process along for you.

John..

[astrid]

Hmmm.... you might want to really read to the bottom of that article,
and click on the next link andywight, i think you might have found yourself
a Fake Guru!!

The author is telling us how to spot a fake Guru with one hand,
then trying to sell as a course with the other.

For $800 US.

http://www.meditationexpert.com/stages.html


'"Discover How Far You Can Go in Your Spiritual Cultivation After You Learn About the Stages of the Path,
the Proper Application of Spiritual Practices and the Kung-fu of Meditation Techniques
... All the Stuff You've Spent Years and Thousands of Dollars Trying to Find Out But No One Ever Told You " USD $800"

Also the meditationexpert.com thing is a bit of a worry.
True Spiritual teachers are quite humble beings.

I Would be very much doubting the intent of this author, myself.


As for finding a spiritual teacher that resonates with you it's simple.

When the student is ready the teacher appears.

Teachers are not necessarily in the physical form either.

Blessings,

Astrid

[andywight]

Hmmm.... you might want to really read to the bottom of that article,
and click on the next link andywight, i think you might have found yourself
a Fake Guru!!

Hi Astrid, well spotted. I'm not pushing this website, I just used it to get this thread started. I think it's important though to be able to spot fakes! and a discussion about it can only benefit the members of this forum.


People who don't have any wisdom always get cheated even if you tell them so.

The author's right about this IMNSHO.

[DeDukshyn]

If the message includes ultimatums = fake
If money is asked for the message = be wary, especially if it seems unreasonable.
If the message overly demonizes someone or something = be wary, at best it's a dualistic message, a good guru teaches holiness (wholeness).
If the Guru claims to be "more right" than others, or his message "more right" = be wary, a good guru knows everyone has his own path.
If the Guru has something to gain by spreading his "word" = likely fake, good guru's require nothing in return and no worldly gain.

My 2 cents.

[norman]

To be absolutely fake as a Guru that person would be quite something special.

My own experience with Gurus is that they have had illuminations that have caused them to express them somehow and according to their personal charisma they have attained varying degrees of Gurudom.

When ever I've allowed myself to become 'involved' with a Guru I've accepted that what I was really doing was partaking in some charisma swimming. Seekers are very prone to such stuff.

As I've got older I've realised that non gurus and non seekers are far more interesting.

The first and most fundamental fact about gurus is that to accept one as a teacher is to accept that there is a problem to be solved. That's ok if you've got all the time in the world to while away on such a useless pursuit.

Much better to get on with a working relationship with people.

[DeDukshyn]

I'd say to some extent all external sources of teaching are distorted - especially at the level where written words and language are concerned.

You may read what I wrote, but understand something quite different to what I was trying to say.

Even the "good" teachers get misunderstood.

It is all experience. At the end of the day - nobody other than yourself is responsible for sorting it all out.

Teachers, good and bad, are catalysts to help that process along for you.

John..

Exactly right Anchor J .. every "guru's" message is their interpretation of the message. Some people are better at this than others, and some (very good ones) approach others with a specific interpretation based on their current audience. But it's about finding the interpretation that resonates with you.

¤=[Post Update]=¤

I think it was Jesus who said something like (paraphrased heavily) all your brothers are your teaches, even the "least" of them.

[loveandgratitude]

After living in India for 20 years I met may share of Guru's. Some Fake others not. I found that you just have to listen to your own inner voice to understand if something feel right for you, if it resonates. To be honest I have never been big on Guru's as I have always had my inner Masters and do not have to search on the outer.

The story I wish to share is about a book I bought many years ago called - "HOW TO BE A GURU". And the part I found most interesting was - WHAT IS THE BIGGEST THREAT OR DANGER TO THE GURU? The answer " THE CHELA". (The Student).

That is about right too.

[Carmen]

They have small squinty eyes and bad breath!!! LOL Couldn't resist

But, seriously, your whole being tells you if something is the real deal or not. Also, one teacher will be 'your' teacher and not necessarily anyone elses you know. There is a 'meant to be' about meeting the real deal, for you.

Some people need to kiss a lot of frogs before their prince/princess appears!!!

[perfectresonance]

Every now and then someone writes me about some guru or meditation or New Age fad and then asks my opinion. I don't have time to answer stuff like that and deprive people of their naughty incomes. My teacher would always refuse comment, too. People who don't have any wisdom always get cheated even if you tell them so. Nevertheless, so that YOU don't get cheated, here's what you have to discover.

Having psychic abilities or superpowers does not mean someone is more spiritual than people without superpowers and psychic abilities. Ghosts and demons have superpowers, so what does having them prove about anyone's state of virtue or spirituality?

[More... (http://www.meditationexpert.com/life-wisdom/l_how_to_recognize_a_fake_guru_or_false_prophet.htm)]

Have any members here had an experience with Fake Guru or spiritual teacher?

If so please post them here. :o

I know this is a little tongue in cheek, but wouldn't it be more useful to discuss how to spot a real Guru? :peace:

Serious now: One thing I have noticed is that even the fake ones can be of benefit to someone. Fake ones don't have to be bad people.

I've seen people carrying tremendous pain going to a "medium" to be told that their beloved passed on relative/friend has forgiven them, and not to worry, and live life without the burden of guilt, etc... and these people come out feeling better.

$80 well spent in that case, fake or not.

I see the purpose of churches in a very similar way. They provide more of a support network of people rather than real spiritual help.

To some degree Avalon provides a very similar purpose: very little (any?) real abilities on show, but a lot of people-to-people help going on all the time.

Yay.

[Carmen]

Yes, Perfectresonance, everyone you meet teaches you something,or has something to teach. Otherwise you wouldn't have met them. The catch is when people have 'worshiping' attitudes, and give their power away. Learn the lesson and move on. Do not be caught in the 'suck' of someone who you love and revere so much all learning has gone and you are just doing as you are told. A false guru is one who doesn't consider you equal, or potentially equal. They do not empower you and are very threatened by anyone who ranges up beside them and looks like passing!!

[Isthatso]

Go with your gut I say. I tend to think of people that have helped me along the way as mentor's rather than guru's. I can't say I've ever had a guru, but then that's open to interpretation. I was suckered out of a substantial amount of money at 21 to remove a curse...yip....(face in hands)...I did... but hey, that taught me discernment, among other things. Now I question everything - quite painful for my friends really.

If I'm having a rough time of it, I can usually go within for answers, or I can simply ask for the perfect person (or wisdom) to come to me, as is perfect for me at this time.

Then I wait and see what shows up......and something always shows up.

Warm wishes..

[pharoah21]

We are all spiritual gurus. We need not rely on anyone. Meditation is the path to enlightenment, that's all that really matters at the end of the day. Meditation is free.

[Nasu]

If the message includes ultimatums = fake
If money is asked for the message = be wary, especially if it seems unreasonable.
If the message overly demonizes someone or something = be wary, at best it's a dualistic message, a good guru teaches holiness (wholeness).
If the Guru claims to be "more right" than others, or his message "more right" = be wary, a good guru knows everyone has his own path.
If the Guru has something to gain by spreading his "word" = likely fake, good guru's require nothing in return and no worldly gain.

My 2 cents.

Personally I have never had nor sought a spiritual master or Guru, no doubt thats where I have been going wrong all this time. I have sought out or found seven very different masters of the sword, of different styles. I am sure there is an ocean of difference between one who has mastered the art of taking life to one who has the mastery of spiritual affairs, life affirming or giving, in a sense. But as I understand the term Guru, I see many similarities to masters of defense.

I completely agree with DeDukshyn on this. In my small experience payment is key, does the master charge for their time, if so, what is the money going towards. For example some of my masters would use the money to further their schools or Dojo's existence, others have merely charged a small amount towards the cost of broken training blades etc and at the other end of the spectrum, one asked for a contribution that clearly went to her food and the expenses of her meager life and finally two refused any payment at all.

Correspondingly to payment comes ego, in my experience. Those masters who charged the most also were the ones who would insist on being referred to by a title, master, maestro, sensei, etc and the ones who charged the least or not at all, were also the most down to earth and would simply go by their given name. Asrid is right that when the student is ready is also key, the master will appear. The extension of that thought is that the best masters are sometimes the most reluctant to teach, they have to be convinced of the pupils diligence and worthiness.

Lastly in my experience comes the pace at which the master will teach, again it seems to come back to payment. Masters who charge the most have the most elaborate and time consuming grading systems, but those at the other end of the spectrum had no formal linear path but would rather teach whatever was appropriate, given the day, their mood, or the place, without distinctions of hard or easy. Clearly when payment is involved their is a motive to slow the pace of learning.

In my opinion, a master in anything, from ironing through to whatever, is someone who has done the thing to death, so much so, that they have long since forgotten the techniques and experimentation that brought them here and have elevated their art of doing to a whole new level. At this point and one would hope not before, they are ready to teach. The difference between a master and a pupil are the amount of repetitions performed.

I know it is not very spiritual in focus, but hope it helps none the less.. N

[Anchor]

I was suckered out of a substantial amount of money at 21 to remove a curse...yip....(face in hands)...I did... but hey, that taught me discernment, among other things. Now I question everything - quite painful for my friends really.

In so doing you learned lessons and harvested wisdom that money cant buy. The irony ;)

Reading between the lines, it seems you also got a bit of practice in self-forgiveness.

Value for money I'd say!!

Perhaps you should go back and thank him for being such a charlatan :)

[andywight]

It would also be good to hear members experiences with fake spiritual organizations.
I had an ex-girlfriend who was picked up by the Moonies, unfortunatly for them! they shortly kicked her out for being too disruptive.
:)

[Isthatso]

I was suckered out of a substantial amount of money at 21 to remove a curse...yip....(face in hands)...I did... but hey, that taught me discernment, among other things. Now I question everything - quite painful for my friends really.

In so doing you learned lessons and harvested wisdom that money cant buy. The irony ;)

Reading between the lines, it seems you also got a bit of practice in self-forgiveness.

Value for money I'd say!!

Perhaps you should go back and thank him for being such a charlatan :)

Yep..spot on, it sure was value for money....lol.

I was free as a bird, on my big O.E. living in NYC....good time's. Sister Anna (yes, a women) would have seen me coming a mile away.

Bless her....

[starsmoonmtns]

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
go w/your gut ANDY????????
and heart...................
OH,
You may want to LOOK into their eyes..........tells a lot about someone.
The ' I AM' movement is strong...
And, Andy, they probably start out with "My dearly beloved ones.............etc., crap!
PS
They will probably tell you it's the best MONEY you have ever spent.........on your self-inprovement!
; )

[Lost Soul]

John Peniel discusses this in his book, The Children of the Law of One and The Lost Teachings of Atlantis (p201-204):

(1) Charging money.
(2) Telling you to do anything (s)he tells you to do. True teachers have no desire to control.
(3) The teacher pursues students.
(4) The teacher stresses "self", boosts your ego, or tells you of the great things your "self" can accomplish, or the abilities and power your self can attain.
(5) Promises wealth or success
(6) They push their dogma
(7) The teachings are like political rallies - based on emotion and contrived "issues" that work on the group's popular sentiment, or they make a "show" of spirituality.
(8) Their ego gets offended for any reason.
(9) Channeling
(10) Lack of Unselfish love.

Starting on page 204 Peniel talks about things to look for in a true teacher.

You can read the book online free. I liked it so much, I bought several copies (and passed them out).

[noxon medem]

Hmmm....

(edited)
..
When the student is ready the teacher appears.
..

There are many kind of people on this forum.
We are all differend ("I am not") and here
for different reasons, and own positions.
- Also ..

Here is an excellent gathering of
people with all sorts of knowledge,
talent, and forum relation (trajectory)

Interacting in different ways, of course
acting in different ways. And "roles".
Here are great teachers, and gifted
students. And everything inbetween,
and then some more ...

( warriors and worriers, and ..)..

Two words on the money-aspect:

A truly highly enlightened person
will have "things" just come to them.
(the basics they realy need for intent)

A qualified guru will anyway have happy
students, who gladly bring him, or her,
the basic need, so they can focus on
being in the "sphere", their house ..
- That "commonly" usefull focus.

It can be that sincere, ok, "gurus" ask
for money or some needed resources
because it can (do) set a focus in the
"student"
It is strange, but most people tend to
take things (and classes) more seriously
if they pay a suiting fee .

Another excample:
A brilliant presenter like David Wilcock
is in my view a good teacher, and both
spiritual, and scientificly well scolared.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4951448613711060908#
(2012 enigma)
And sometimes a pinecone is just a pinecone .
From a three ...
( for thee )

7145
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Pinecone_in_water_with_sparkles.jpg

He is an excellent "motivational speaker"
who put a lot of resources into creating
a genuine audiovisual experience for
"the audience" ... who should pay a
reasonable fee for that service .

( Maybe you can do it better yourself !?!)

- Why am I here ?
Maybe to tell you
that "why" is mostly
a mindgame,
and do not matter
so much ...

Just do it.
(your life)

- maybe, Astrid, the saying also
go the other way, and more ..
(btw: your avatar is a cool cat)


- hmmm ....

- When the teacher is ready,
the student(s) appear ?


:)

:fish2:

all well
nm

[meeradas]

You know a fake guru whenever you meet one.

[noxon medem]

You know a fake guru whenever you meet one.

maybe not initialy,
and, yes, you do.
If you are You .

Here is spring to summer
now, and all of that, and
greetings to you
and all .....

(at the wells, and the wheels)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wheel

And one more image of a pinecone
- in water :

7146

all well
nm

[jjl]

I used to own a new age gift store for about ten years. (Closed last year so I could replace my knee and took early retirement.) It got so that I truly pitied the people who bragged of super powers. (First clue). These people have a need to possess something the clearly didn't have. "Whenever someone would brag of being psychic, I would smile broadly at them. Inside my head I would say,; "Really? Can you tell me what I am thinking?" I never once got an answer.
When I first came on, I got a pm from a member hinting that he/she was St. Germain. The individual even went as far as to tell me what I was wearing! Very intriguing. But alas, the person seemed to disappear about a month ago and I miss him/her. Even if it were St. Germain, (unlikely in my opinion) I could never make a guru out of anyone.

[andywight]

It would also be good to hear members experiences with fake spiritual organizations.
I had an ex-girlfriend who was picked up by the Moonies, unfortunately for them! they shortly kicked her out for being too disruptive.
:)

Inelia, you were at one time a high ranking member of the Church of Scientology, would it be possible for you to share your experiences of that organization with us here? I'm sure it would be of great benefit to all members of this forum.

[TimelessDimensions]

Pope Ratzinger Burger?

[heyokah]

I can very much recommend the books of Andre van der Braak

. " Enlightment Blues"

Enlightenment Blues is Andre van der Braak’s compelling first hand account of his relationship with a prominent spiritual teacher.
It chronicles both the author’s spiritual journey and disenchantment as well the development of a missionary and controversial community around the teacher.
It powerfully exposes the problems and necessities of disentanglement from a spiritual path.


http://www.avdbraak.nl/eb/kaminoff.html

. "Gurus & Charisma"

Is the charismatic guru a liberator or pied piper?
Psychologist and guru expert André van der Braak analyzes the dangerous aspects of the relationship between the guru and his students and explains their appeal.
He then uses examples to differentiate between healthy and unhealthy charisma.
The last part of the book guides the reader to more healthy forms of discipleship and concludes with a quick guide for knowing whether your guru is leading you down the wrong track.


http://www.angusrobertson.com.au/book/gurus-and-charisma/956260/


*** edit

I will add this review on 'Enlightment Blues"
http://www.monkfishpublishing.com/pages/Enlightenment-Reviews2.htm


*As for me.....

My own children have always been my best teachers.

***

[Ba-ba-Ra]

My opinion: If it's not you, then it's fake. That's what this paradigm is all about. Self-Realization. Outside info and people are simply catalysts.

Just think - if you never lifted an arm to pick something up, the muscles in your arm would be so weak you would lose the skill. Same way with intuition. If you keep relying on others, how will you keep or ever develop the skill?

[JoeNashville]

In my experience there seems to be an inverse relationship to who they are and what they say they are. The more they tell you what they are the less they are. Many of the most famous and notable were the ones that told you how much they are. The more they are the more humble they should be imo. They talents should be easily recognizable. Those that claim to be this or that turn me off, even in just an everyday learning experience.

[Chicodoodoo]

Our biggest challenge is trying to figure out what's fake (false) and what's real (true). The news of bin Laden's alleged murder is just the latest example. The mainstream media is a showcase of fakery. Nearly everything we've been brainwashed to believe since childhood is propaganda. Is it any wonder that we are challenged to recognize a fake guru from a true teacher when our entire education is a fabrication?

Question everything and dismiss nothing. Under the circumstances, it is the only philosophy with half a chance of getting to the truth.

[Inelia]

Thank you Andy for the thread link.



It would also be good to hear members experiences with fake spiritual organizations.
I had an ex-girlfriend who was picked up by the Moonies, unfortunately for them! they shortly kicked her out for being too disruptive.
:)

Inelia, you were at one time a high ranking member of the Church of Scientology, would it be possible for you to share your experiences of that organization with us here? I'm sure it would be of great benefit to all members of this forum.

To clarify, I was not high ranking at all. Just a lowly Auditor in training (only stuck around for about a year).

This little article reflects what I learned about cults:


The Cult provides somewhere to belong. The most intelligent, the brightest, the most sensitive and kindest people feel left out of today’s society. It is hard for an above average woman, for example, to be satisfied with a mundane job, shopping for clothes and shoes and watching television every night. While her workmates and friends talk about the latest Desperate Housewives episode, or the latest diet fad. It is difficult for an above average man to feel satisfied with his daily work routine, sports, beer, poker nights and living the rat race. They watch as from a distance, joining in only superficially, and feeling alone and left out. Different.

Feeling different is one of the first things the cult will prey on. When someone feels different they want to fit in somewhere. They want to find a group which will make them feel at home, a group which will understand them and talk about things that matter.

Another thing the group will focus on is making the person feel validated, important, needed and indispensable. All of the sudden the person will feel that what they are doing matters. That what they are involved in will make a difference in the world, that it will possibly not only save them but save those dear to them and possibly the world.

The group will share a very important reality with the person. From being someone who was an outsider, finally here is a group that shares interests and a reality that the normal outsiders cannot see and cannot comprehend.

The group will also provide stability. Now there is a schedule, plan, timetable and common goal. The group will be strong and normally be led by a mother or father figure who will tell people what to do, will tell them they are valuable and will tell them he or she loves and appreciate them.

Another bait is Mystery. I write it with a capital M because it is not the type of mystery that will be revealed at the end of a novel, book or lecture. It is the type of Mystery which people will pay their entire fortunes to have revealed.

The Unknown, a Mystery of this magnitude is a sentient trap. Any sentient being will be trapped by a mystery they cannot fathom. A mystery that is created to be at the same level of intelligence and analytical power as the sentient being is as powerful as iron bars in keeping people from leaving the cult.

There is a saying that goes, “curiosity killed the cat”, this saying perfectly portrays how an intelligent being can be trapped and killed by something they feel curious about and the only things we feel curious about are the ones we are not familiar with, the things we don’t know, don’t understand or don’t see. The Mystery will only be revealed after years of loyal following, work and probably a lot of money. The nature of the Mystery is irrelevant at this point. The victim has invested so much of him or herself to find out what it is, that by the time it is revealed to him or her, it doesn't matter what it is. The person will either completely accept it as a huge and deep truth or will feel like a fool and leave the cult.

The promise of extraordinary abilities, powers, wisdom or knowledge is another trap the group will use. Suddenly the person is privy to teachings which are prohibited to the rest of humanity.

The group will also provide answers. They will have answers to most, if not all, of the questions the person will have about existence in this planet. They will provide answers to everyday problems such as lack of money, relationships, health issues, unhappiness and stress.

Fear is the way to keep the person involved even after their logical mind decides they have had enough. The person will be threatened that if they leave, no one will speak to them again. For long term cult members this will mean they will lose all of their friends and possibly their spouse and family. The person will also receive bigger threats, the most popular being that if they leave, they will suffer for all eternity. Particularly if the group is religious in nature, the fear of ending up in a hellish trap because the person left the only group that could provide salvation is a big weight to lift before breaking free.

These are the things cults use to lure and keep people in their ranks. The question is why do they do it? What’s in it for them? Cults are invariably led by one person. When that person dies, the cult is then led a group or individual who will speak on that person’s behalf. But why do they do it?

Money, power and sex are the main culprits.

If you have someone who is lost to a cult you must understand that this person feels great affection and loyalty to the cult. For them it is not a cult, it is Johnny, Mary, Stewart, Rob, it is their best friends, their spouse and children perhaps. Their leader will not be a cult leader, it will be David who values and teaches them. In other words, what for an outsider is a cult which is controlling the person, for that person it is an intimate group of friends and co-workers who know and understands him or her.

If you think you are immune to cults then think again. The cult will not approach you as a cult, it will be Michael next door, or Jenny from school, or perhaps an attractive and friendly person in your local mall offering a free service or book who approaches you.

They won’t ask for your savings or your time or sexual favors, they will offer solutions, friendship and common interests instead.

No one joins a cult to make the world a worse place to live in, or to make their leaders rich. You wouldn’t be joining one to do this either. Most of the cult members feverently believe in what they are doing. Once inside the cult, you would never think of yourself as someone who is going out there preying on innocent people to join your cult. You would be simply trying to share your new found happiness and teachings.

Beware of groups, religions and known cults. You do not need to belong to any type of ideological or religious group and belonging to one and this one turns out to be the wrong one for you, it will only make you feel better for a finite period of time. Sooner or later, you will feel isolated from that group too, but by then it will be very difficult to leave them. But it's best to leave them than staying.

If there is a group of people who you feel great affinity toward, approach with care and if they ever ask you for your savings or ask you to reach your credit card limit (to pay for a worthy cause), or if they ever tell you to cut communication with your family or friends (because they are a negative influence), or stop you from doing any activity which is not related to the group (because it's a waste of valuable time), ask yourself if perhaps you are in a cult and don't be ashamed to admit it if it turns out you are.

Inelia Benz

When a person first begins in their spiritual journey they are like babes in the woods. They are pray to every cult, religion and con artist out there. From, so called, established religions which will take every cent the person owns, to the psychics who will charge them for cleaning up negative entities around them, to those who prey on the new simply to satisfy their egotistical need for worship and control.



What you can do to protect yourself is to develop a big sense of self trust. Your instinct will show you red flags when something is not right and the predators will try to undermine those red flags. It is essential that you develop a strong sense of inner guidance. Never hand over your wallet, credit card, soul or mind without retreating for at least week to think about it. If the person selling you their salvation tells you you cannot do that, that you have to make up your mind right away or forever loose your chance at salvation... RUN!!!!

This is very basic stuff. Taking the wrong guru, cult, religion, as your guide can set you back years.

[Donna O]

Thank you Andy for the thread link.

To clarify, I was not high ranking at all. Just a lowly Auditor in training (only stuck around for about a year).

This little article reflects what I learned about cults:

Inelia, firstly thank you for your continued presence here and the grace you have shown under what must have been a very stressful time.

As you have posted on this subject I would like to ask you a few questions with no ill intention but simply as a means to understand who you are a little better.

You spoke of your short entry into the COS which I can understand completely, having been sucked into a similar set up several years ago, jehovas witnesses. It has taken me a long time to get this mind control completely out of my system but I was a lost soul and believed at the time it was 'all the answers I was looking for'. Indeed, I couldn't understand why my family were not as enthusiastic as I and would have thought it wonderful should one of them have joined me.

I did take along my two small girls to meetings, though fortunately they were too young to have been 'completely brought in' the way I was. I sussed the organization out 'relatively' quickly before any major damage was done to them. At the time though, it was a natural responce to involve them by a mother who had begun to think she had found all the answers and only wanted the best life possible for her children.

On your ex-scientology blog you have spoken about your own children becoming involved with the COS alongside you and wonder if this was a case like mine, where during your research into them, you may have thought it a good place for your children to learn and grow?

This may be a sore subject at the moment, but I only ask for the sake of greater clarity regarding your journey here to us at Avalon.

With my best intention
Leelah

[Moonwish]

OK

I just deleted this whole thing once. This tells me I needed to edit more carefully.

Don't we all have these moments of wanting someone to tell us the easy answer?

I am tired, as we all are. But don't we have to recognize we are the ones we are looking for (or am I getting the quote wrong?)

Gurus are so yesterday (or was I in the bathroom, as I often am?)

Time to take responsibility, better or worse. Clear path to enlightenment or disaster, or enlightenment and change.

[loveandgratitude]

To receive answers I have a meditation/trance relaxation I do. I have created a spirit room. This room is initally created in your mind.
Close your eyes -

Create a beautiful room, what are the walls made of, the floor, the ceiling. Are there windows, what is outside the room. Furnish it as you wishmaking sure you have two comfortable chairs, pillows, whatever. After you have created the room that you love to be in, then invite your higher self/spirit whatever into the room. You then have the opportunity to ask questions, talk about things etc. Allow the higher self/spirit to answer you. It may take a few times till you can hear with open ears. A good temporary measure is to create two objects/symbols that create a yes/no answer. Then ask the question where the response can be a yes/no senario. See what symbol appears before.

When you have finished, thank you spirit/guide/higherself for the opportunity to speak with them. And seen them leave the room.
Stay for a moment, soaking in the peace, tranquility, serenity then leave the room closing the door behind you. Open your eyes and continue on with your day.

[Lettherebelight]

Whether we like it or not, we meet gurus all the time, wherever we go. We learn from nature, animals, our fellow humans, and those from higher dimensions as well.

If we keep our 'nectar detecter' switched on, we'll be in tune and 'catch the news' that we need to hear.

Strictly speaking, the word 'guru' in Sanskrit means 'heavy', referring to 'heavy with knowledge'.

So I guess a phoney guru would be someone who knowingly offers bogus info. I hope there aren't too many of those about! The reccommended way of
finding out is to have an exchange of questions and answers.

To come across a 'Bonafide' (literally: in good faith, without pretense) Guru, according to the Vedas, is considered to be a great blessing.

Great thread, Andy, and thanks to everyone who has posted here...

May your 'nectar detecter' never fail you! :yo:

[Inelia]

Thank you Andy for the thread link.

To clarify, I was not high ranking at all. Just a lowly Auditor in training (only stuck around for about a year).

This little article reflects what I learned about cults:

Inelia, firstly thank you for your continued presence here and the grace you have shown under what must have been a very stressful time.

As you have posted on this subject I would like to ask you a few questions with no ill intention but simply as a means to understand who you are a little better.

You spoke of your short entry into the COS which I can understand completely, having been sucked into a similar set up several years ago, jehovas witnesses. It has taken me a long time to get this mind control completely out of my system but I was a lost soul and believed at the time it was 'all the answers I was looking for'. Indeed, I couldn't understand why my family were not as enthusiastic as I and would have thought it wonderful should one of them have joined me.

I did take along my two small girls to meetings, though fortunately they were too young to have been 'completely brought in' the way I was. I sussed the organization out 'relatively' quickly before any major damage was done to them. At the time though, it was a natural responce to involve them by a mother who had begun to think she had found all the answers and only wanted the best life possible for her children.

On your ex-scientology blog you have spoken about your own children becoming involved with the COS alongside you and wonder if this was a case like mine, where during your research into them, you may have thought it a good place for your children to learn and grow?

This may be a sore subject at the moment, but I only ask for the sake of greater clarity regarding your journey here to us at Avalon.

With my best intention
Leelah

Hi Leelah,

This is a GREAT question. My personal learning of the way in which cults operate was very close and personal (most of my learning has been close and personal - jump in first, then ask questions later). The first few weeks I was there, it was all very nice as new recruits are not shown the "dark side". It was during the first or second week that my daughter arrived, and I introduced her to the cult. We talked about this later on, and saw how they operated at this level too. Basically, as soon as they heard that she had arrived in the city, they told me to bring her in so she could meet everyone... before the day had ended they had signed her up for staff.

By the time my son arrived, my daughter and I already knew there was something very wrong with this organisation. With my son, it was literally the pan or the fire, with regard him going to the local school or into the cult.

Although it sounds odd, both my kids benefited from the experience. It strengthened their resolve, personalities and made them fearless. One has to become fearless toward all the life threats they throw at families when they leave.

My son did decide to stay longer, which he did. But eventually, he also left. Throughout his stay (when my daughter and I were no longer there), they tried to split us up. They tried to make him disconnect with us and also write up bad things about us (a copy of which - handwritten by my son - would be duly sent to me).

Did I make a mistake bringing my kids in? Would I do it again? The answer is I had NO IDEA how dangerous or horrific this cult was when I went in. I saw they had something, I really, really wanted to believe they were for real, but soon found out they were not.

When I found out they were "dark", I went as deep as I could to see what they were using in order to trap and enslave lightworkers. What I learned I used to help free my kids with. If I had known the danger, I would not have taken them in. At the same time, I knew that my kids were not in real danger because they are highly intelligent, discerning and intuitive. Even when my son at 16 decided he would not leave with me, but stay with the cult, I knew that he would leave soon. And as soon as he saw the dark side, he did leave. They don't show it until they think they have you in their grasp.

My daughter was already 18 when she joined, and my son was 15.

After that, our personal experiences and anonymous work as a family have helped many other members leave, as well as old members be able to start processing their fear and speak out against this government backed lightworker trap.

For me personally, it gave me a real sense of what is happening on a world wide scale, and how the "technology" developed by the members of the early Scientology group (pre 60s), has been revamped to enslave rather than liberate.

There's a great interview that Bill and Kerry did with a scientologist, that does shed light into a lot of what happened in that organisation. Like any testimony, it is not all that happened, but it is the piece they experienced themselves, as well as their personal interpretation (which I agree with for the most part):

http://www.projectcamelot.org/dane_tops.html

[Donna O]

Thank you Inelia. Life here is a difficult thing. I can see how the Hubbard technology makes sense in the right hands with the right intentions; one could easily be drawn in by that initially. Unfortunately the COS is about as far removed from that as one can get. However, we cannot really know what we are talking about until we have experienced it for ourselves, and we can only truly help someone recover from dealing with such a cult if we have been deep into the system of it.

The truly dangerous ‘Gurus’ are those organizations that entrap a soul whom genuinely wants to change 3D life into one full of meaning and purpose. Thus go many valuable light workers. It’s easy to see what these cults’ intentions are, apart from money, they need to control those of us who can see society for what it is and may otherwise be making trouble for TPTB. In fact, look deep enough and you will follow the trail back to TPTB every time. I have seen this also with the Jehovahs Witnesses.

My children are also better armed on their spiritual journey, even though their involvement was brief. There is a lot of rehabilitation work to be done for the many vulnerable people who have managed to escape.

[Fred Steeves]

Here's my general take on gurus. Say for instance my next door neighbor was a guy named Yeshua, that would be awesome. I would always be fermenting new insights or questions to run by him next time we talk, but I certainly wouldn't have the urge to follow him around, I'd feel like a stalker. More importantly, I think it would be more like a continuing conversation rather than question and answer. I would mull over things he told me, see how it felt, validate it with my own observations and experience, and go from there next time.

Even before that level of trust was gained, I would have observed how he lives his life, treats people, etc. The old tried and true by their fruits you will know them.


Cheers,
Fred S.

[luciole]

People become important when we give them their importance.
A guru is a Guru because people have given him/her that status.
We are always judging a person by his actions, so a Guru is supposed to be this kind of saint, but he's a human being with flaws....
ANd because we put the Guru above of ourselves, we give him more power, than we have,
so we expect him to be the reflection of perfection!


To be honest I have never been big on Guru's as I have always had my inner Masters and do not have to search on the outer.

Yes, we are looking for answers outside of us, but they are inside us! A Guru for me is someone, who can maybe teach me some spiritual lessons, that can help me find my own way, alone.


Serious now: One thing I have noticed is that even the fake ones can be of benefit to someone. Fake ones don't have to be bad people.

I've seen people carrying tremendous pain going to a "medium" to be told that their beloved passed on relative/friend has forgiven them, and not to worry, and live life without the burden of guilt, etc... and these people come out feeling better.

$80 well spent in that case, fake or not.

I see the purpose of churches in a very similar way. They provide more of a support network of people rather than real spiritual help.

I see things the same way. Some really corny self help books written by new age guru millionaires, helped me change some aspects of my life, when I was totally miserable!

The real problem would have to be my attitude. If I become dependant on that author, and follow him in expensive seminars around the world...

[9eagle9]

Exactly right. People tie up their self identity with gurus and the guru allow it-- which is really very disempowering for all involved. It would be very tiring for someone who is coming from the right place to be responsible for all those IDs, for a guru.... the ego enjoys it I suppose. People who guru identify are lent a false sense of importance merely by association. No real empowerment. Gurus are interested in LOTs of individuals, but not on an individual level.

A teacher is usually teaching something academic and less Self related.

Being enabled of an ability doesn't mean you are connected. Abilities are just facets of ourselves that we've uncovered and polished whether it happened by design or accident. Enabled people can be as ego and consciousness dense as anyone else. A lot of Self expressive people lose interest in their abilities . Not that they disappear but they become more meaningless.

Spiritual mentor show they don't teach. They don't have to teach, all is shown because they have two things that most people haven't' claimed yet, including most of our 'spiritual' authorities.

That is SELF Authority, and SELF expression. That's what connects one to others --SELF expression connects to other SELFS. There is a marked difference in a SELF expressive person, they don't need anything but their SELF expression. Precision thought and bearing. The SELF is very precise. SELF-assured.

Its easy to spot folks who lack self authority and self expression.

The SELF though always has it say. ALWAYS. DEPENDABLY. When you watch a teacher imposing consciousness related content on their audience the SELF brings bearing to the consciousness and begins to express itself too. Because they speak virtually two different languages, the teacher always ends with a sort of mixed bag content that opposes itself, because its composed of consciously derived content, and the SELF manages to work itself in there. A mix of truth and non truth.... SELF expressed people notice this right off the bat because it sounds like gobbedly gook...lol. Then the guru has to spend a lot of time substantiating their content instead of seeing the message in there.

Self Expressive mentors, they don't teach, its not necessary to teach, they spark SElf Realization in person, who is shown for themselves. Teachers have to bend over backwards to make you find the truth substantiating everything. A SELF expressive speaks the truth, because the SELF Is our truth. Precision speech and bearing, they don't have to substantiate, and they aren't swarmed over by questions that are irrelevant to the subject matter.

The truth is SELF evident.

There's a reason our ancient cultures put such value on oral traditions. SELF Expression.



People become important when we give them their importance.
A guru is a Guru because people have given him/her that status.
We are always judging a person by his actions, so a Guru is supposed to be this kind of saint, but he's a human being with flaws....
ANd because we put the Guru above of ourselves, we give him more power, than we have,
so we expect him to be the reflection of perfection!


To be honest I have never been big on Guru's as I have always had my inner Masters and do not have to search on the outer.

Yes, we are looking for answers outside of us, but they are inside us! A Guru for me is someone, who can maybe teach me some spiritual lessons, that can help me find my own way, alone.


Serious now: One thing I have noticed is that even the fake ones can be of benefit to someone. Fake ones don't have to be bad people.

I've seen people carrying tremendous pain going to a "medium" to be told that their beloved passed on relative/friend has forgiven them, and not to worry, and live life without the burden of guilt, etc... and these people come out feeling better.

$80 well spent in that case, fake or not.

I see the purpose of churches in a very similar way. They provide more of a support network of people rather than real spiritual help.

I see things the same way. Some really corny self help books written by new age guru millionaires, helped me change some aspects of my life, when I was totally miserable!

The real problem would have to be my attitude. If I become dependant on that author, and follow him in expensive seminars around the world...

[HaveBlue]

Thanks for your posts everyone. Why would you go in search of a 'guru' in the first place. Inelia is so right when she says most of her learning has come from within. So has mine.

Maybe it's a case of the fool and his money are soon parted. If you put it out there that you are looking for something, there will be no shortage of offers. For a small fee of course. The universe teaches you.

Ultimately you should get to --Oh no, I was fake for even looking outside myself. the answer lies within. It is true folks so don't be lazy and ask others to do your work for you. Another one for JC. (I'm christ concious but don't call myself a christian as such. It is possible I might BE one without knowing!)

[Peace of Mind]

People are real but their beliefs can be false. The results of their intentions will present the transparency you’re looking for.

Peace

[andywight]

Its easy to spot folks who lack self authority and self expression.

The SELF though always has it say. ALWAYS. DEPENDABLY. When you watch a teacher imposing consciousness related content on their audience the SELF brings bearing to the consciousness and begins to express itself too. Because they speak virtually two different languages, the teacher always ends with a sort of mixed bag content that opposes itself, because its composed of consciously derived content, and the SELF manages to work itself in there. A mix of truth and non truth.... SELF expressed people notice this right off the bat because it sounds like gobbedly gook...lol. Then the guru has to spend a lot of time substantiating their content instead of seeing the message in there.

Self Expressive mentors, they don't teach, its not necessary to teach, they spark SElf Realization in person, who is shown for themselves. Teachers have to bend over backwards to make you find the truth substantiating everything. A SELF expressive speaks the truth, because the SELF Is our truth. Precision speech and bearing, they don't have to substantiate, and they aren't swarmed over by questions that are irrelevant to the subject matter.

The truth is SELF evident.

There's a reason our ancient cultures put such value on oral traditions. SELF Expression.


Thanks 9eagle9

[Davidallany]

I found that you just have to listen to your own inner voice to understand if something feel right for you, if it resonates.
Wonderful, this exactly what happens. It all depends on the state of mind. What do we mean by " the state of mind"? . When we talk about the state of mind, we are talking about where the mind is dwelling. What thoughts is it generating, what the self is experiencing and what is it associating and not associating with. Like the author of the thread stated, it's due to lack of wisdom, which comes from lack of experience, that we believe in the wrong teacher, teaching, system of living etc.. We do this because we seek wisdom in order to reach freedom and happiness, as we stumble around we hurt ourselves, sometimes others, but that's ok. It's part of the learning curve, rest assured we ALL will reach that shore of freedom when the time is right. Live in the now, let go of the dead, deep breathing, gratitude and acceptance for the opportunity to experience the joy and sorrow of life. Once we accept what is, let it move untangled.

[perfectresonance]

I found that you just have to listen to your own inner voice to understand if something feel right for you, if it resonates.

You'd be surprised how many times people make decisions like that and subsequently use thought and logic to justify it to themselves all the while not realising they already made a decision.

Some people are subsequently so good at using reason on themselves, including all sorts of filters from their upbringing ('oh, no you don't deserve something that nice'), or society, or peers or unresolved hurts and problems that they "talk themselves out of it".

The more you calm yourself and sort out the mental clutter in your life (read: stress), the more you get to hear that voice. It's a very useful one.

[Chicodoodoo]

The truth is SELF evident.


This is an interesting statement.

If the truth is SELF evident, does that mean things that aren’t SELF evident are untrue?

For instance, if I find the quoted statement above to not be SELF evident, does that make it false?

What should one do in the case where one person finds a statement SELF evident, and thus true, and another person finds it SELF evident to be false?

There’s another saying that truth is often stranger than fiction. Fiction is often full of surprises, and surprises are not at all SELF evident. That would imply that truth is even more unlikely to be SELF evident.

I’m beginning to think that truth is not at all SELF evident. That would certainly explain why so many are searching for it.

[Lost Soul]

People are real but their beliefs can be false. The results of their intentions will present the transparency you’re looking for.

Peace

By the same token, beliefs can be real, but the "believers" are false. Many preach, but they do it for themselves and not for the Creator. Peniel discusses a lot of this in his book. So does Red Elk who advises that the man made part of Bible must be discerned and discarded. He discusses it in his talks and in his book, Short Stories.

[9eagle9]

The truth is SELF evident.


This is an interesting statement.

If the truth is SELF evident, does that mean things that aren’t SELF evident are untrue?

Yes. Until they become self evident...or not.

For instance, if I find the quoted statement above to not be SELF evident, does that make it false?

You won't though, because you would have already offered your findings.


What should one do in the case where one person finds a statement SELF evident, and thus true, and another person finds it SELF evident to be false?

One should ask one's SELF what another person or persons have to do with one's SELF.


There’s another saying that truth is often stranger than fiction. Fiction is often full of surprises, and surprises are not at all SELF evident. That would imply that truth is even more unlikely to be SELF evident.

Because fiction is a construct of consciousness and truth is SELF evident, not Conscious Evident.

I’m beginning to think that truth is not at all SELF evident. That would certainly explain why so many are searching for it.

Thinking is also a conciousness construct and not at all related to SELF. Why is thinking necessary to the SELF that knows? YOu are looking for the truth in thought instead of SELF.

And your proof is that because you haven't self expressed truths for them to be self evident that proves truth is not self evident. Its not evident to you because you haven't expressed it.

I personally don't projectile vomit but its not a good argument for its non existence.

That you cannot yet operate in SELF expression doesn't disprove its evidence or truth doesn't exist, its just evidence that you are not yet able to express it . You may be waiting for it to express outside of yourself and it won't. If it did it wouldn't be your SELF expression.

[9eagle9]

The local raw food group is looking for me to advocate them.

So when I look around the group I see a dozen women in varying stages of mid to morbid obesity. Skin diseases, rashes, things of that nature.

I decide to not to advocate them. No thanks I don’t see evidence that raw food dieting is healthy.

They get angry at me because they 'think' I'm 'implying' that a raw food diet isn’t healthy.

I didn’t say that though did I?


So they barrage me with books, and theories, and thoughts, and cram stalks and dried bugs down my throat and talk about how raw food dieting is much healthier but….
they are not providing evidence of it. They sound convincing…but where’s the evidence?

In these circumstances, I have all the evidence (self) I need not to advocate that group on my own self authority. So again they throw books and studies from other 'authorities' at me. They are looking for a higher authority than me, to negate what I've already KNOW to be self evident.

So the group insists: These 'authorities' have credentials. YOU don't. They have videos, and books, and cds, and workshops, and a television show."

I don't need credentails to support what I find to be self evident. There is no authority that is going to negate what I find to be self evident.

And if it was self evident to them, why would they need me to advocate and prop them up?

They are then attempting to convince me of something because they themselves are not convinced. And if I am convinced (or even not) my own authority would prop up their lack of authority even as it negated my self authority on the matter.

And it drives them nuts because they have no 'idea' of what I'm talking about.

[andywight]

The hierarchy and ranking system for CoS members is more complex than any to be found in Freemasonry. Progression through all levels of the teaching takes many years of dedicated study and practice. For the would-be adept, the fees for CoS services and materials to facilitate the full journey are estimated to cost approximately $300,000 - $500,000.

Scientology paints itself as a religion, but its organization also actively markets material related to business management, education, mental health, physical health, law enforcement, "moral revitalization", and entertainment. It is a transnational business in every sense of the word. The Church of Scientology has assets totaling an estimated $400 million and an annual revenue of $300 million.

It seems that L. Ron was right: the real money comes from establishing your own religion.

[Read more... (http://www.thefoggiestnotion.com/daring_greatness.htm)]

[9eagle9]

A church needs advocates to validate them . This is just the same old symptom that ails everyone they are looking for someone else to validate them. (not to mention the money is good, are they using the money for good?). If one is self validated one needs nothing else. Not to mention that tired old schism that money is a sign of success. That may be true but money doesn't equate truth. I have no idea when that worked our way into consciousness that we need money to validate truth. When I see a schism that has to try that hard to raise funds it speaks to me that they are trying very hard to convince themselves; they are not convinced of their own schism.

The local Law of Attraction people are always trying to raise money to go on a cruise. Why? Why raise funds when they talk about how their 'Vortex' will manifest anything for them? They are reciting a language that props up a belief that isn't expressing itself as a truth. For that reason I find no evidence that what they are prattling on about is truthful. Or expressed.

I was speaking to a friend last night, an ex scientologist. I was speaking of core values, and beliefs, and the roles we create within ourselves to navigate them regardless if they are serving one's purpose or thwarting it. She relabeled these phenoms with scientologist language but its virtually the same phenom.


The MO is they create another language around that which already exists, and once they get you to understand the language, it fools people into believing that just being able to understand that language indicates they have some how managed to master the truth or an expression of evidence or truth. They've just mastered another language. Regardless if they do this by design or accident.

People will state to me they do not believe in paying taxes. But will continue to pay taxes. Which further imbeds one in the belief that taxes exist,are worthy of belief, they are propping up and holding up a system and INVESTING in a system they state they don't believe in. How do you invest in what you don't believe in or......perhaps how is one coaxed into investing into believing that which you don't believe in? The struggle of the self against conscious rationalization.

Language. Which isn't the same as expression. If one truly didn't believe in the tax system they wouldn't keep paying into it. I don't pay Santa Claus a weekly stipend.

So they have to use language to confuse you from your self expression which knows they are just offering language. Not truth.

That's all a church has to offer really. And people pay them for something they already know. A church would be more authentic and honest if it stated" I'm teaching you another language."

[Peace of Mind]

People are real but their beliefs can be false. The results of their intentions will present the transparency you’re looking for.

Peace

By the same token, beliefs can be real, but the "believers" are false. Many preach, but they do it for themselves and not for the Creator. Peniel discusses a lot of this in his book. So does Red Elk who advises that the man made part of Bible must be discerned and discarded. He discusses it in his talks and in his book, Short Stories.

Yes, and in essence everything is false. We are living/experiencing the grand illusion…where the true self is really the whole. When certain truths are sought, there is an alignment of actions made through thoughts that will lead you to that truth. So, be wise when following other peoples teachings…the truth can only come from within. Others can advise and maybe educate on various mysteries….but their testimonies are only a rendition, not actuality. What you seek for will most likely be seen and only recognized by you, because deep down it’s really what you wanted to see. I have come to learn that truth comes in many flavors…assorted to suit everyone’s taste.

What we need to do is figure out how to co-exist and be prosperous. No matter how many truths we find…. the real tasks is to use these pieces of the puzzle to rebuild paradise…the home we all are looking for.

Peace

[Chicodoodoo]

That you cannot yet operate in SELF expression doesn't disprove its evidence or truth doesn't exist, its just evidence that you are not yet able to express it . You may be waiting for it to express outside of yourself and it won't. If it did it wouldn't be your SELF expression.

I can't help wondering if this is the kind of thing a fake guru might say. :confused:

[9eagle9]

That you cannot yet operate in SELF expression doesn't disprove its evidence or truth doesn't exist, its just evidence that you are not yet able to express it . You may be waiting for it to express outside of yourself and it won't. If it did it wouldn't be your SELF expression.

I can't help wondering if this is the kind of thing a fake guru might say. :confused:

That is why its helpful to know, otherwise we are left to depend on thinking and wondering.

[Lettherebelight]

Both viewpoints have complete merit.

It would be fair to say that we have external gurus as well as the internal guru (inner voice, conscience, paramatma, whatever you want to call it).

Success lies in striking a balance, giving both sources a chance to speak to us when the time is right.

[Chicodoodoo]

That is why its helpful to know, otherwise we are left to depend on thinking and wondering.

I do depend on thinking and wondering, which is why your statements make little sense to me. Fake gurus want you to "know", with that knowing dependent on how it "feels". This is precisely how their game works. They manipulate your perspective of your own feelings. They convince you that these feelings are justification for the belief they want you to buy into, that being whatever belief they are expounding. They are selling certainty (faith) based on emotion. That certainty creates feelings of satisfaction and contentment within the believer, which form a positive feedback loop that reinforces the feeling of certainty. It feels right, so it must be right. Truth becomes self evident, which is of course absolute hogwash.

[9eagle9]

Thinking and knowing aren't the same thing.

[Lettherebelight]

maybe a good question would be...'How do you know a real guru when you meet one?'

[9eagle9]

WE already know. We just don't trust what we know because we've misplaced our self authority.


If you go to a psychic you'd expect the psychic to KNOW.

Or do you want that psychic to think and wonder thing about you? Speculate.

In that case you don't need a psychic you need a bartender. Or a friend.

[ace]

Thier is no truth, no right, no wrong

Ace

[greybeard]

maybe a good question would be...'How do you know a real guru when you meet one?'

If you mean enlightened sage the answer is easy
That one has no agenda.

You can subdivide that as often as you want.
No need of
Followers or being believed
Does not try to convince
Does not try to control any part of your life
No hierarchy
No ancient "secrets" to be sold.
You are not there to serve the guru he/she is there for you.
No oaths of loyalty.
No fees but there may be donations or a charge to cover hire of meting place and other legitimate expense.
The Guru and the taught are the same that is they share Higher self--same field of consciousness.
The True guru is one with God and has no wants needs or desires.
Does not expect or accept sexual favors from followers.
Has humility.
Does not display special powers.
Phenomena may occur in their presence the but they do not take credit for whatever happens.

Now that applies to enlightened gurus

There are many good spiritual teachers who are not as yet in the state called enlightenment.
Many of the aforesaid attribute of the true guru may apply to them too.

Chris

[Lettherebelight]

I'm liking the sound of that description, Chris. Thanks very much for that!

[Tane Mahuta]

Have any members here had an experience with Fake Guru or spiritual teacher?

"Please supply credit card details, people are waiting to take your call" = Dead give away!

A person with super powers & pshycic abilities would not require monetary sustanence!:(

nuff said

[9eagle9]

I was doing a little investigative snooping around a few years back and I joined a psychic hotline as a reader.

In all fairness,we've heard all the stories about psychic hotlines, but there's never been any discussion about the PEOPLE who CALL those hotlines.

I had a whole new look at the world of Psychic Phenom. BIZARRE.

And yes lots of folks use them as sex talk hot lines. Their cheaper...lol. They erm... want to do ...uh...handle themselves as you are giving them advice from 'beyond'.

Kinky.

The first call i got was a man named Jack. (Yes JACK) and he needed advice because his wife wasn't speaking to him because she'd caught in him in the act of .....ahem...self regard.





Have any members here had an experience with Fake Guru or spiritual teacher?

"Please supply credit card details, people are waiting to take your call" = Dead give away!

A person with super powers & pshycic abilities would not require monetary sustanence!:(

nuff said

[andywight]

"Writing for a penny a word is ridiculous. If a man really wants to make a million dollars, the best way would be to start his own religion" (SOURCE: L. Ron Hubbard, Reader's Digest reprint, May 1980, page 1)

[Bill Ryan]

--------

Andy, be careful what you're talking about here. A little knowledge is a dangerous thing. The History of Scientology is very complex!




Therefore, although we have no such stature as the Great Philosophies, I charge you with this - look to source writings, not to interpretations. Look to the original work, not offshoots.
If I have fought for a quarter of a century, most of it alone, to keep this work from serving to uphold the enslavers of Man, to keep it free from some destructive "pitch" or slant, then you certainly can carry that motif a little further.
I'll not always be here on guard. The stars twinkle in the Milky Way and the wind sighs for songs across the empty fields of a planet a Galaxy away.
You won't always be here.
But before you go, whisper this to your sons and their sons - "The work was free. Keep it so."

-- Ron Hubbard, Clearing Philosophies, 1957.

Hubbard founded Scientology as a Church in the early 1950s because he'd upset the AMA (the American Medical Association), who were taking legal action against him for "practicing psychotherapy without a license". He also had other government groups after him, after it became clear that the techniques of Dianetics (which erase engrams) could reverse brainwashing.

(An engram is an internal verbal command which is induced under pressure of pain and reduced consciousness, and which operates hypnotically without the person being aware of its influence. Most engrams are accidental - and persist across multiple lifetimes - but they can also be deliberately induced. Jason Bourne's induced memory loss could have been handled with Dianetics and saved him a great deal of trouble. :) )

The idea to register as a Church (as Jim Humble, the inventor of MMS, did when he founded his Genesis II Church (http://genesis2church.org/site/index.php) - not to make money, but to avoid prosecution) actually came from his editor friend, John Campbell. Hubbard immediately saw the benefits. Scientology was never a bona fide religion in the accepted sense of the word - there's nothing to 'believe' per se. This is very much an open secret.

When Hubbard wrote those above words (1957), this was long before the Church went sour. Read the Project Camelot Dane Tops interview (http://projectcamelot.org/dane_tops.html) for more information (Andy, you should actually do this) - and also listen to this 1987 BBC radio documentary, Ruthless Adventure: the lives of L. Ron Hubbard (http://projectcamelot.org/mediafiles/audio/Ruthless_Adventure_the_lives_of_L_Ron_Hubbard.mp3), a very balanced and interesting account containing archived interviews and little-known research material.

http://projectcamelot.org/mediafiles/audio/Ruthless_Adventure_the_lives_of_L_Ron_Hubbard.mp3

Enjoy this documentary - it's excellent, and may be very helpful to anyone who's seriously interested in the real history of the subject.

Regarding the topic of the thread, the main problem is ego (as Chris/Greybeard says). A real guru will never claim to be one.

Meanwhile, most teachers need to post a sign outside their door, so that students know they're there. This is no crime. The world does need them.There are many teachers of many subjects among Avalon members.

[Omni]

Have any members here had an experience with Fake Guru or spiritual teacher?

"Please supply credit card details, people are waiting to take your call" = Dead give away!

A person with super powers & pshycic abilities would not require monetary sustanence!:(

nuff said

Not that I support psychics who charge money. But how? You think they could listen to someone's thoughts and feed themselves and shelter themselves that way? I'm psychic occasionally. It never gained me any money when I was homeless.... It did however prevent me from ever being arrested as a youngster... lol

[jjl]

I'm sorry to report that people take a lot of energy from a reading. And if we didnt charge, we would be pestered 24/7. Plus, we gotta eat too.

[HaveBlue]

Hubbards book 'Dianetics' is worth reading, whatever views you may have on certain people in scientology. Also it seems to me the E meter does have validity.
BTW I have never met a scientologist, nor do I wish to.
It seems to me every religion and philosophy has at least one or more pieces of the jigsaw, but none on their own have it all. Probably just as well!

Yes reading givers must eat too!

Don't mean to drift off topic, just commenting on the above posts.

[9eagle9]

I played with an emeter last week, yes it does have validity. A machine that is rather like one that people use to meter electrical output in a house. Perhaps more sensitivity since the electromagnetic output of a human is subtler than house current....lol.

So I'm holding on to these thingermabobs( my terms, not science) and I thought of things that may be possibly infringing on my free will. Thoughts and emotions concerning life long issues I've struggled with to see if they still hold sway. Some stuff i had cleared out and I have to add not by using Scientologist methods. And some I got a meter read on. Yes you are holding on to some emo crap concerning this person or circumstance. It appeared to responds to thoughts and emotions because our thoughts and emotions produce a shift in personal energy. It didn't say what they were specifically but it was a tool for finding those conditions.

One woman had expressed to me a long time ago that after having spent some time on an emeter she felt that it had influenced her. Her mind kept returning to ugly incidents in her life and she couldn't shake them. I'm thinking when she worked with the machine and a process she brought the issues to the surface to be examined. The machine didn't do it persay, but it did ping on these circumstances , once brought to mind they are going to stay there on the surface till someone works through them.

We do that daily: "I'm going to feel guilty until I return Aunt Edna's call but I sure hate talking to that woman and now I'm even guiltier because you shouldn't feel that way about talking to your aunt."

Or some other circular mind trap that we create that doesn't go away till we resolve it.


I know a number of ex scientologists I work with and they agree that what I do with people is really the same techniques used in Scientology abatement of core beliefs, values and roles that we assume--consciousness. . Dyanetics does as well if I am remembering correctly I haven't read any of that sort of stuff since in two-three decades. The language used is different. I refer to something one way and they refer to it another way. So they all agree that the TOOLS and METHODS of Scientology can be valuable but theres other tools out there that are of the same merit. And nearly of the same identical means of process. I audit people all the time but I don't use any tools other than myself . No machine needed. And the word process is a stickler. We are 'being' processed sounds like brainwashing or robots on an assembly line

But everything we do as far as having condition imbedded is a process, and everything we do to excavate it is a process. All of life and learning is a process. The first Chevy commerical didn't send us out robotically to buy a car, it was processed over a time. And when the conditioning is removed, it works itself out over a time too. We are all involved in a process.

And these folks don't have anything bad to say about the tools or methods which are more a means of excavation than embedding. All told me that the reason they left Scientology is that as they moved through the higher levels , they felt their free will was being imposed on. First the conditions for free will were met and then as they moved up they felt it was being imposed on.

From my perspective though ... I can help a person excavate an artificial belief, value or role them bringing to a sorta of blank slate. I also help them to create more empowering roles, beliefs and values . Now chances are if I could mentor them to create new values on that freshly excavated landscape, I COULD conceivably impose a role on them that were more serving to something other than themselves. Myself perhaps. So if I could do that on my own individual level one knows that it could be done on a larger scale.

But we already know that, we've watched the PTB do it since forever ago. Imposing false conditions in people, in all of us.

I
Hubbards book 'Dianetics' is worth reading, whatever views you may have on certain people in scientology. Also it seems to me the E meter does have validity.
BTW I have never met a scientologist, nor do I wish to.
It seems to me every religion and philosophy has at least one or more pieces of the jigsaw, but none on their own have it all. Probably just as well!

Yes reading givers must eat too!

Don't mean to drift off topic, just commenting on the above posts.

[TimelessDimensions]

a watchful eye for hypocrisy.

[andywight]

Andy, be careful what you're talking about here. A little knowledge is a dangerous thing. The History of Scientology is very complex!

Bill, thank you for the warning. Yes you are right a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, but on the other side off that coin it reads, A lot of false knowledge is also a dangerous thing. The History of myself is very complex, the History of yourself is very complex and I'm sure the History of every member of this forum is very complex.

I don't know much about the COS and generally don't have much interest in organized religions or cults, I posted Mr Hubbard's quote because I thought it was relevant to this thread.
Have taken your advice though and will devote some time to researching this organization, have already dug up some interesting stuff!
Will post my findings here as they unfold.

For the meantime heres more of L. Ron Hubbard, in his own words:


"They smell of all the baths they didn’t take. The trouble with China is, there are too many chinks here."
- L. Ron Hubbard’s diary, 1928.

"I’d like to start a religion. That’s where the money is."
- L. Ron Hubbard to Lloyd Eshbach, in 1949; quoted by Eshbach in OVER MY SHOULDER: REFLECTIONS ON A SCIENCE FICTION ERA, Donald M. Grant Publisher. 1983

"THE ONLY WAY YOU CAN CONTROL PEOPLE IS TO LIE TO THEM. You can write that down in your book in great big letters. The only way you can control anybody is to lie to them."
- L. Ron Hubbard, "Off the Time Track," lecture of June 1952, excerpted in JOURNAL OF SCIENTOLOGY issue 18-G

"The purpose of the suit is to harass and discourage rather than to win. The law can be used very easily to harass, and enough harassment on somebody who is simply on the thin edge anyway, well knowing that he is not authorized, will generally be sufficient to cause his professional decease. If possible, of course, ruin him utterly."
- L. Ron Hubbard, A MANUAL ON THE DISSEMINATION OF MATERIAL, 1955

"So we listen. We add up associations of people with people. When a push against Scientology starts somewhere, we go over the people involved and weed them out. Push vanishes."
- L. Ron Hubbard, MANUAL OF JUSTICE, 1959

"MAKE MONEY. MAKE MORE MONEY. MAKE OTHER PEOPLE PRODUCE SO AS TO MAKE MORE MONEY."
- L. Ron Hubbard, Hubbard Communications Office Policy Letter, 9 March 1972

"There are only two answers for the handling of people from 2.0 down on the Tone Scale, neither one of which has anything to do with reasoning with them or listening to their justification of their acts. The first is to raise them on the Tone Scale by un-enturbulating some of their theta by any one of the three valid processes. The other is to dispose of them quietly and without sorrow."
- L. Ron Hubbard, SCIENCE OF SURVIVAL, 1989 Ed., p. 170


A Link to an interview of his son:

http://religion-spirituality.org/scientology/penthouse-interview-ron-hubbard-jr1.php

[andywight]

Hubbard founded Scientology as a Church in the early 1950s because he'd upset the AMA (the American Medical Association), who were taking legal action against him for "practicing psychotherapy without a license". He also had other government groups after him, after it became clear that the techniques of Dianetics (which erase engrams) could reverse brainwashing.


"I’d like to start a religion. That’s where the money is."
- L. Ron Hubbard to Lloyd Eshbach, in 1949; quoted by Eshbach in OVER MY SHOULDER: REFLECTIONS ON A SCIENCE FICTION ERA, Donald M. Grant
Publisher. 1983

Bill, it is clear from Mr Hubbard's own words, that he already had plans for starting a religion to make money prior to the early 1950s.
Can you explain this to me.

Thanks in advance

Andy

[Some Bloke]

There are a lot of cults out there, most of them based an good work which becomes pirated by the power hungry seeking to turn prophet into profit. Playing up to positive human traits, like wanting to find stuff out and the will to community, and praying on human weaknesses, like self doubt and wanting to find a 'leader'

I was very touched by the accounts of those who have been blighted by such organisations, and so I have decided to tell my own story of such a voyage..

When I was in my early 20's I came across the Gnostic Movement, I attended a class of 1 in a low rent flat, the various 'lecturers' were all good hearted, warm intellegent people, and it was free, they did it as a service to humanity .
One day a new lecturer arrived, he was different from the others, like he wanted me to 'submit' , slowly and subtily things started to change.
There were all these new rules, and donations WERE expected.
Normally after so many lectures the 'student' would move up a 'phase', but he always had an excuse, and I'd have to start again at lecture 1 (out of 30 or more) .
(I later found out he had been in the movement less time than me,the difference was his 'lecturers' who had ideas..)
Originally the movement had been set up under a very fair and democratic system, this meant that those holding office (president, auditer, etc) could only do one term, so the old guard were replaced, one by one by the students of the same couple ( Mr &Mrs P )that were behind my 'lecturer'
The whole mood of the movement changed, the only things you were allowed to say was how BADLY you were doing in the practices and how you were FAILLING in the work on the Ego (bringing the light of understanding through self observation on to ones defects, ie; gluttony or lust for example, thus liberating the 'essence' to become true virtue )*
This was morphed into "I am a seething abyss of corruption".
Every Mass Movement (for that is what Mr & Mrs P were trying to create for them selves) has to have a devil, the problem is they were setting this up WITHIN the members, resulting in lots of people having massive breakdowns, two people went spectaculally mad, I left with health issues that the developed into CFS, and the movement collapsed.
(this is a very concise version)
Not long ago I 'googled' Samael Aun Weor, who founded the movement, and lo and behold Mr & Mrs P now have an international cult with a flash web site , and suprise suprise, you have to PAY for everything. There are lots of complaints about them too
He now claims to be a Master, and he is , a master of BS
They are not the only ones to profit from the Masters work,there is even a small town set up by one group in Venezuela, near the Columbian border...

My understanding of the dynamic of what happened came from reading Eric Hoffer's The True Believer, I highly recommend it

[andywight]

This is not about fake gurus but I believe this is also relevant to this thread.

Interview with researcher Brian Gerrish about the Charity Organization Common Purpose, the founder Julia Middleton, Mind Control, Hypnosis and the Neuro Linguistic Programming Techniques that they use to "invade" the minds of politicians and other "leaders" of Society.

[Watch/Listen to interview... (http://www.redicecreations.com/members/extra/bgerrish/index.php)]

Edit: link to interview above unavailable (well worth watching if can find it elsewhere, please link if found): similar interview here: http://www.cpexposed.com/video/?video=edge_media_interview

[TraineeHuman]

I have had over a hundred spiritual or psychological teachers that I worked with intensively over long periods of time. Somehow I always managed to fail to “toe the line” to such an extent that it would become impossible for them to continue to work with me.

Then, over fourteen years ago, the god Shiva had a chat with me in the astral (in full colour “cinemascope” with the equivalent of quadraphonic sound, so to speak). Actually, I was fascinated because he was one of very, few “teachers” I have had or listened to who was coming out of what you might call pure emptiness, or pure everythingness. It was very much the same as how Inelia looks to me in her video interview. There’s a detachment there that’s so unbelievably huge. With Shiva, for example, any time I tried to communicate any thought or feeling that had any trace of negativity in it, he seemed to fully receive it but totally ignore it. It was as if he genuinely was incapable of intaking anything negative whatsoever. That was so far beneath his dignity it didn’t register. It was as if he had the ability to make it become non-existent as soon as it came out of my “mouth”, or even before it did.

Shiva ran through all the “teachers” I had had. Somehow he made it clear that there was only one who half impressed him. However, Shiva didn’t express that negative judgment, because he just doesn’t do negative. Instead, he drew the judgments out of somewhere inside of me. Incidentally, that teacher was the late Barry Long, who was also Eckhart Tolle’s teacher, and the inventor of exercises such as “feeling the aliveness” and of concepts such as “the inner body” and “the unhappy-body” (which Tolle calls “the pain-body”). Come to think of it, Barry was about halfway there to having that divine/universal level of detachment. Barry was unlocatable as a personality, much of the time, if that make sense to anybody.

Incidentally, I understand the original meaning of “guru” is “oracle”, or “antenna”. The pineal gland is known as your “guru” in Hinduism. May I suggest that’s the best guru to follow?

[steve_a]

Hi Everybody,

The truth is that you can't know a fake Guru when you met them. You will only find out when it's too late. It's the same in any walk of life. For those in the UK or like me have cable TV hee in Brazil, there is a programm on UK TV called "The Real Hustle" where people get scammed, either because of their greed, innocence or ignorance. Either way they were sucked in and eventually spat out at the other end.

It's the same in Guru land. The false Gurus are normally well read, eloquent people who suck people in for as long as the 'marks' can take it. Then the 'marks' get spat out bewildered at the other end. After all they put all of their faith in to the false Guru.

So false Gurus are really hard to find when you meet them. That's what makes it tough and extremely cruel.

Best regards,

Steve

[Tony]

Dear All,
Anyone who opens their mouth is a Guru!
Everyone is constantly tell you how the world is. "Lovely weather, isn't it?"
is loaded!!

How many people have you met who are not Fake? Who is being themselves?

It's the illusion calling the illusion, an illusion!

You all are your inner teacher, you just have to know it.
When you know every thing is an illusion, you can be kind to that illusion, it serves as a reminder!

You must have better things to do?

All the best

Tony

[andywight]

This is a website dedicated to all fake gurus, Swamis and spiritual leaders throughout the world.

We will tell how they empty the pockets of their followers and devotees who give freely after hearing lies and promises of enlightenment and success.
We will report about their sex scandals, about child abuse and molesting of women, about disrespecting feelings of trust and the various ways how they enrich themselves.
And finally we will offer support to those who have lost their trust in religion or spirituality through the actions of such a person, cult or organization.

http://www.fake-guru.com/

[9eagle9]

Gurus who are offering yet ANOTHER belief system instead of authenticity serve to create more density. It just folds over and over and over on itself, daily, creating more Matrix. And the people who climb in their knickers and laud this create density as well . Co -conspirators. I'd not be to far off when I state they are serving those, unwittingly, that would seek to keep us imprisoned, by just creating more an more conditions, densities, thoughts giving people something to think and do instead of showing them lateral alignment where nothing needs to be done or thought or practiced. They are self serving rather than allowing Higher Self to Serve. They may be very well intentioned, not talking about evil people here but....graven images and false idols become more important than truly experiencing and being shown.

[Nanoo Nanoo]

A true guru is not actually a guru at all. Historically the word Guru has a meaning of someone to follow or worship. A real leader is someone that leads, helps you get started and then lets you go. There is great wisdom in the saying " give a man a fish and feed him for a day, teach a man to fish and feed him for a life time" This is the true essence of teaching and spirituality.

In a broader sense we are all Guru's or teachers. However, we have a responsibility to learn truth then pass it on. Some make a living from this because they want to sustain them selves and continue to do so, thats the pitfall of a money based society, money isnt everything but its right up there with oxygen.. Remember there is no quick fix. there is no short cut to a spiritual lifestyle , it is a long journey sometimes of self discovery the length of time is proportional to your ability to connect with your higher and lower self and discover who you are. This can be best done by spending time with your self and meditating.

When you release thoughts and calm the mind you can then hear the wisdom thats inside you.

The fakeness of what we have been lead to believe is that there is a pill to fix everything.. its not true.


an excellent method of meditation is called sacred silence. Its an Indian Shaman method and is very effective in calming the mind to achieve silence.

First step is silence
Second is forgiveness
Third is learning wisdom
Fourth is teaching


and all along the way is the joy of being free in spirit.

N
N

[andywight]

Nithyananda: Truth About the Cult of Swami 'Paramahamsa' Nithyananda; Organized Fraud

[Read more... (http://nithyananda-cult.blogspot.com/)]

[9eagle9]

My last silent retreat, I took last year. It was in August. Or my first attempt at Silence was in August. You dedicate to hear no voices but your own. Your expectation is that you will learn more about yourself and your inner voice without all the distraction. What I ended up doing ...was learning about other people. The consternation I caused by retreating out of the social /public eye was crazy. The perception people held about me that I was strong capable woman disintegrated in an instant to be replaced with "OHMYGOD she's losing her mind." the moment I said I would be unavailable for a month. But it what medicine people periodically have to do rather like how nurses and auto mechanics need recertification. It's what keeps the medicine.

The moment I retreated,I was hounded, besieged, set upon, phone ringing all day people asking me if I was okay. I get his same response in the summer when I pitch a tent and spend most of my time outdoors in the backyard simply because its good for me to do so. This translates into "She's having a nervous breakdown." So August was a wash. In September I made a public statement." I would have my silence or I was never speaking to those who intruded on my silence ever again." It's a profanity and disrespect of a sacred vow someone is taking. And there's no reason for it. But for OTHER people's fear. I literally had to create a fortress around me to keep people out.

it was bizarre as if my silence had something to do with THEM. They took it personally and it taught me a big lesson on how one accidentally falls into the trap of people getting co dependent and I had to determine to never let people self identify with me so strongly because its irresponsible and doesnt allow people to develop on a SELF level. A real eye opener and one of the greatest lessons I ever had. I realized i had enabled this by being too available and too quick to take on other people's problems instead of allowing them the silence to work things out for themselves with the tools I showed them.

I must have needed A LOT OF SILENCE because my silent retreat extended outwards for three months.

Looking forward to the next one though.







A true guru is not actually a guru at all. Historically the word Guru has a meaning of someone to follow or worship. A real leader is someone that leads, helps you get started and then lets you go. There is great wisdom in the saying " give a man a fish and feed him for a day, teach a man to fish and feed him for a life time" This is the true essence of teaching and spirituality.

In a broader sense we are all Guru's or teachers. However, we have a responsibility to learn truth then pass it on. Some make a living from this because they want to sustain them selves and continue to do so, thats the pitfall of a money based society, money isnt everything but its right up there with oxygen.. Remember there is no quick fix. there is no short cut to a spiritual lifestyle , it is a long journey sometimes of self discovery the length of time is proportional to your ability to connect with your higher and lower self and discover who you are. This can be best done by spending time with your self and meditating.

When you release thoughts and calm the mind you can then hear the wisdom thats inside you.

The fakeness of what we have been lead to believe is that there is a pill to fix everything.. its not true.


an excellent method of meditation is called sacred silence. Its an Indian Shaman method and is very effective in calming the mind to achieve silence.

First step is silence
Second is forgiveness
Third is learning wisdom
Fourth is teaching


and all along the way is the joy of being free in spirit.

N
N

[sshenry]

It all depends on how you define "guru". Western society has taken a term from the Sanskrit (which means teacher or spiritual master - someone who is "heavy" or "weighty" with spiritual knowledge) and twisted it so that it means someone who imparts spiritual knowledge - sort of like a snack or soda machine. Put a coin in (the coin can be money - or belief, it doesn't matter) and you'll get spiritual knowledge dispensed to you in a nice, neat, manageable package.

And western society with its emphasis on capitalism, has replied in kind with plenty of "spiritual teachers" who will tell you anything you want to hear (for a price of course, though their coin isn't always monetary, but many times belief or faith in them and what they are saying).

A real guru doesn't have to act or dress or behave a certain way. Sometimes you don't even know that you've met a real guru until their words or actions come back to you days, weeks - even years later and you're like "damn, how come I didn't see that before?"

A true spiritual master does not hold him or herself up above their students or followers as an example of what they can achieve and they do not encourage their students or followers to do so. No, a true spiritual guru comes down to the student's level and works with them on an individual basis to help them remember the information that they have forgotten and find the path that is theirs to follow. They help others to achieve their own personal best. And, as any good teacher knows, there is no one right way to teach all students. Each individual person is going to need a different approach; they are going to need personalized help. The 'love and rainbows' message given to one person that fills their heart with peace and joy will do nothing for some, but that doesn't mean that they are hopeless, they may need a little more down-to-earth approach.

And it sure isn't just words that are indicative of a real spiritual guru. It's actions. Their actions - or lack of action - can say as much for their being a true spiritual teacher as all the wordy protestations will ever do. Are they willing to work one on one - or are they too important for that? Are they willing to take a different approach in order to get their point across or do they keep up the same routine regardless? If you're being purposefully obtuse will they give you a good swift kick to bump you out of your rut?

Don't be fooled by the societal expectations of what a guru "is" or "isn't" or what a guru "should" or "shouldn't" be like. The only thing that matters is if, after having interacted with them, your life begins to change as you begin remembering who you are and why it is that you are here.

[Billy]

By looking at their bank account, mode of transport, sexual behaviour, and most important if it is one to one, looking into their eyes

[MargueriteBee]

They are especially fake if they charge tons of money and live in a mansion and drive way expensive cars, go on shopping sprees in Europe, etc and charge $1050 for a beginners retreat. IMO!

Oh and watch what you say cause she just might sue your a$$!

Especially if they charge $5000 to have dinner with them! What a joke! IMO!

[9eagle9]

Not a good idea to make that assessment in terms of abundance either. I live in an enormous house, and I have a car --60k ---all manifested, nothing to do with teaching or healing or fees or charges or anything at all save for the ability to manifest. More often than not I bang around in by pie bald winter beater. I have literally given things away boats, vehicles, and they pop right back into my life again. The guy who bought my boat leaves it here for me to use anytime. Same with the truck I sold him. The more I give away the more it comes back. That's reciprocal energy its automatic. And one doesn't necessarily have to own things to have them. I don't own much of anything, but I seem to have everything. I have stuff I never asked for but I'm glad I have it.

If teachers are expressing what they teach and they happen to teach manifestation, abundance is going to express in their life. Which the whole point, to show people how to make abundance rain out of the ceiling. I haven't been working much at all the last year and half since this is my time to play but I still have abundance pouring in. Manifestation.

Conversely if a teaching abundance and its not expressed in their life then they aren't convinced of their own material. A teacher of abundance with their palm out is missing the point of manifestation. Periodically I venture out to do a work shop on manifestation, or a casual gathering, there's no charge attached. One is demonstrating that you don't have to earn the usual way. I can AFFORD to offer it for no charge because it supports the actual material and concept of manifestation.. It gets reciprocated in another way. If people want to pitch in for donuts and coffee hey...great. Everything a teacher teaches should be expressed or demonstrated in their own life before offering it to others.

[Anno]

[...]
If money is asked for the message = be wary, especially if it seems unreasonable.


Like when people say... "I don't have time to go into it in detail right now, so if you want to know, buy my book/dvd or a ticket to my day long lecture".



If the message overly demonizes someone or something = be wary, at best it's a dualistic message, a good guru teaches holiness (wholeness).


A bit like saying, We are all one, except the... insert abstract group label like Masons, Satanists, Celebrities, Reptilians.



If the Guru claims to be "more right" than others, or his message "more right" = be wary, a good guru knows everyone has his own path.


Like referring to people who don't believe them as "Sheeple".



If the Guru has something to gain by spreading his "word" = likely fake, good guru's require nothing in return and no worldly gain.


Free trips around the world, being treated like a celebrity, getting to drink in the energy sent to them by their devotees?

Sounds like you're describing about 90% of the people in the truth movement to me lol. =]

[DeDukshyn]

[...]
If money is asked for the message = be wary, especially if it seems unreasonable.


Like when people say... "I don't have time to go into it in detail right now, so if you want to know, buy my book/dvd or a ticket to my day long lecture".



If the message overly demonizes someone or something = be wary, at best it's a dualistic message, a good guru teaches holiness (wholeness).


A bit like saying, We are all one, except the... insert abstract group label like Masons, Satanists, Celebrities, Reptilians.



If the Guru claims to be "more right" than others, or his message "more right" = be wary, a good guru knows everyone has his own path.


Like referring to people who don't believe them as "Sheeple".



If the Guru has something to gain by spreading his "word" = likely fake, good guru's require nothing in return and no worldly gain.


Free trips around the world, being treated like a celebrity, getting to drink in the energy sent to them by their devotees?

Sounds like you're describing about 90% of the people in the truth movement to me lol. =]

Well, you took what I was trying to say out of context and your examples are weak to your point, but I do understand the overall context of the point you are making - and there is some definate truth to that -- so in response to that specifically:

Understand also,that there has to be the progression from being completely oblivious to anything other than what your are fed, to being "awakened" to a larger reality, having to process that reality and the fear that it brings, and then transmuting that fear into love of all things and confidence the highest good is being served.

Many people (whether they see themselves as teacher or student) are so addicted to their fear that they cannot move past the processing the fear of greater reality part, and so get stuck there in that state of conflict judgement and duality - for they are so used to "fighting" or taking advantage of others as a way to resolve conflict or serve their ego - which actually doesn't work, but eventualy that too is realized and the person moves from that place, to a state of enlightenment where they can bring about the change they really seek.

You see, it is all one big process and process is goal. People are scattered all along the path and they have been drawn the path -wherever they may be on it- by their intent for a better tomorrow - all of them, teachers and learner's alike (we are all both teachers and students).

Some yet, are standing along the sides of the path going knowhere yet feel justified in taking potshots and judging those who are moving along the "incorrect part" or in an "incorrect way" of that path in their eyes.

[Anno]

Well, you took what I was trying to say out of context and your examples are weak to your point, but I do understand the overall context of the point you are making - and there is some definate truth to that [...]

Can truth ever be taken out of context? I thought it was universal. I didn't have a point as such. I was simply amused at how pretty much anyone can be seen as a true or false guru. I like your explanation about everything being a process and different people being at different points along the path.

For the record. I don't judge. I'm 99% convinced that some of the biggest names in the alternative media are at best, conmen, at worst, controlled opposition. Regardless, they are all waking people up and spreading truth. I don't need to judge them for it because that's what we have Karma for. Exposing them would most likely cause more harm than good to the overall process anyway.



You see, it is all one big process and process is goal. People are scattered all along the path and they have been drawn the path -wherever they may be on it- by their intent for a better tomorrow - all of them, teachers and learner's alike (we are all both teachers and students).


I think that's a great way of putting it.

[DeDukshyn]

...
Can truth ever be taken out of context? I thought it was universal....
.

Hehe, good point. To me the Truth (with capital) can never be taken out of context as they are 100% universal without exception, but truths (small case) can - as they merely describe an agreed upon observation of a particular subject. Thus those "truths" always have the possibility of being subjective and therefore not 100% universal. My original post reflected agreements that one could make to have a potentially healtheir abilities in determining potentially valid sources for tools of learning - therefore a small case truth. ;)

[RedeZra]

i found a guru

jump jump and then some hump hump ; )



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[eileenrose]

Go to church.