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W.C.
10th May 2011, 12:16
It takes a great intellect to be able to entertain an idea without fully accepting it. When views solidify, one becomes almost fanatical in ones belief to the point of insanity; as if any notion of opposition to their thought is below, incoherent to them.

I have recollections of old friends of whom I was very fond attempting to propound this idea, and watching how others with more solid stances would throw about their toys to the point they were almost squirming. It is of little doubt this is unapparent and even outside of consideration to the said fanatics, but on they go; on and on, stuck in a cycle of opposition purpertuating itself, rather than flowing, and striving for understanding.

It is by no means a new concept. Language (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?19790-Language) differs, but the meaning is there:


In Buddhism, knowledge is regarded as an obstacle to understanding, like a block of ice that obstructs water from flowing. It is said that if we take one thing to be the truth and cling to it, even if truth itself comes in person and knocks at our door, we won't open it. For things to reveal themselves to us, we need to be ready to abandon our views about them.

Of course, opposition can also be a wonderful tool in reconnecting minds to the flow of understanding. As opposition tends to perpetuate itself, people are more inclined to discuss things when they feel their view is being directly opposed. When this becomes a tool, is the point at which one has to think and challenge ones own view to challenge another's... and then it clicks, as they say.

One doesn't need to look all that far to find examples (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?20169-The-sensitivity-of-language-and-people-when-describing-race-related-issues) of this. I recall a an example an old friend wrote, during a particular to and fro of opposition:


You know ZA reads stuff and finds it interesting, sees enough evidence to become more or less convinced, and then gets angry at those who don't see it. He points to "facts" and gets frustrated when we don't acknowledge the facts or don't seem to care as much as he does. There is nothing wrong with any of that.

It happens with religion. It happens with crime and subjugation. It happens. But we can't forget their heart is in the right place.

When I was first married I had tons of Rabbis coming at me with some very decent arguments for things that suggest the authenticity of the Torah. They sounded a lot like ZA: "Read a book – then I'll take you seriously." But they lied. I read some books and came back with more skepticism. The answer?

"Read more books. Or read the same books again. Keep going back until you see what I see."

They see me today as a lost lamb, bulwarked behind my wanton ignorance, my laziness to read every book and study every line of Talmud and read all the commentaries and then actually try some of their versions of Orgone, like wrapping tefillin or davening. "You have to live it in order to comprehend it," they say.

In the end, it is not my laziness, my ignorance, or my cowardice that keeps me from believing in or caring about whether some God wrote some book or whatnot.

The Rabbis will sigh and go over it again. "You're forgetting about this argument, or that commentary..." Maybe so, but I have to move on. Life is short and I care more about some other things. Perhaps your God will forgive me. "He will," says the Rabbi.

ZA, you are not a child for believing in what you believe in. I respect you just as I love and respect the Rabbis - we share too many common goals to hate for long.

Another friend remarked, 'one either believes knowledge expands human consciousness or he believes knowledge cripples pure consciousness.'

I tend to believe both to an extent. I think it all comes back to levels, branches of some incomprehensible tree. Too much knowledge here, and you fail to see this here, as if the branch and level you're on is obstructing your view of something else.

They say its a mark of great intellect to be able to consider things without fully accepting them. I've always liked that saying. Knowledge can make one quite fanatical.

What a life.

Solphilos
10th May 2011, 12:30
Knowledge is temporary, as such, what is knowledge to a being of permanence?

What we 'know' today will be obsolete sometime in the future. The fate of knowledge is inevitable.

firstlook
10th May 2011, 12:48
Truly great post W.C.

Its my intention to work on understanding the benefits of all knowledge. Benefit by definition means change. At the end of the day the most important piece of knowledge is to make people feel smart IMO. Because everyone is. I dont want to preach but instead want to find a way to interact that allows the person I'm conversing with to find his own path. I truly never assume I am better off then anyone. I guess its that whole free will philosophy. I want to learn to be a catalyst of peaceful change. Accepting both the good and bad / sustainable and unsustainable sides of people.

IMO its spreading the message that its OK to be different from one day to the next. Excepting that we only know our selves through change.

Bruce Lee said it. Be like water.

:)

W.C.
10th May 2011, 13:05
Knowledge is temporary, as such, what is knowledge to a being of permanence?

What we 'know' today will be obsolete sometime in the future. The fate of knowledge is inevitable.

Brilliant response, thank you.

In my understanding, only change can be permanent... and this too, shall pass. Every atom in your body has changed from the time you started reading this until this very moment, yet does this mean you are a different person?

W.C.
10th May 2011, 13:22
Truly great post W.C.

Its my intention to work on understanding the benefits of all knowledge. Benefit by definition means change. At the end of the day the most important piece of knowledge is to make people feel smart IMO. Because everyone is. I dont want to preach but instead want to find a way to interact that allows the person I'm conversing with to find his own path. I truly never assume I am better off then anyone. I guess its that whole free will philosophy. I want to learn to be a catalyst of peaceful change. Accepting both the good and bad / sustainable and unsustainable sides of people.

IMO its spreading the message that its OK to be different from one day to the next. Excepting that we only know our selves through change.

Bruce Lee said it. Be like water.

The thanks I added to your post was not nearly enough -- Rarely have I read a response which resonated so deeply.

...so amazing an example of the spirit of Avalon (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?20221-Knowledge-Understanding&p=215311#post215311), as I have ever yet had the pleasure of reading.

firstlook
10th May 2011, 13:37
The thanks I added to your post was not nearly enough -- Rarely have I read a response which resonated so deeply.

...so amazing an example of the spirit of Avalon (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?20221-Knowledge-Understanding&p=215311#post215311), as I have ever yet had the pleasure of reading.

takes one to know one. ;)

I wish I could be like this more often. So thank you very much for allowing these interactions. I too have a special place in my heart for this forum and all its members.

:)

oceanz
10th May 2011, 14:01
What if the fate of knowledge was contained in the power of understanding?

What if you were on your death bed, unable to move your physical body, your memories gone but you were surrounded by people who love you.

You would feel that love and somewhere you would recognise and understand it to be love and you would interpret this knowledge to be that you were loved.

Knowledge and understanding are important but the power of love is something you can feel.

It is what I hope people enter and leave this world with ---> love.

dukes4monny
10th May 2011, 14:36
But isn't knowledge something which is given to us and therefore, is it not someone else's thoughts that we are understanding?

Knowledge is simply acquired, then repeated, usually without consideration.

I see Wisdom as the key. Wisdom comes from within and is always considered.

The One
10th May 2011, 15:24
We fool ourselves with what we call knowledge. For what really do we know. We see from one view only, from our eyes only out. We cannot see from other perspectives and we cannot think with others' minds.

We do not truly know what brought us into existence. Nor do we know about what truly happens after when our bodies perish. We know not why we must age. We know not what truly exists beyond our own life form. We know not truly what it is like to live as another life form. We know not truly what really happened as per recorded in our history books. We know not what another thinks in silence. We know not what tomorrow offers us.

But the longer I live, the more I realize the impact of attitude on life. Attitude to me is more important than facts. It is more important then the past, than education, than money, than circumstances, than failures, than successes, than what other people think or say or do. It is more important then appearance, giftedness, or skill. The remarkable thing is, we have a choice everyday regarding the attitude we embrace for that day. We cannot change our past. We cannot change the fact that people may act in a certain way. We cannot change the inevitable. The only thing we can do is play on the one string we have, and that is our attitude. I am convinced that life is ten percent what happens to me and ninety percent how I react to it. And so it is with you. We are in charge of our attitudes.

Henry Ford said it another way, "If you think you can or you think you can't, you are probably right

Davidallany
11th May 2011, 02:25
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In Buddhism, knowledge is regarded as an obstacle to understanding
Ego is tricky, besides why carry a boat once the river has already been crossed.
Be well