Chemtrails don't exist

[Fred259]

Mod-edit: This thread used to be part of the David Icke,Alex Jones,Stewart Swerdlow - Chemtrails,bloody everywhere!! (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?19092-David-Icke-Alex-Jones-Stewart-Swerdlow-Chemtrails-bloody-everywhere%21%21) thread.

I have split that thread into two parts. That original and now shorter thread contains some posts concerned about chemtrails. This new and now longer thread contains Fred259's posts stating that chemtrails don't exist, and responses thereto.

As just about anyone who has an interest in chemtrails on this forum has noticed by now, Fred259 is determined to convince us, with volumes of evidence and tireless rebuttals, that there are no chemtrails, just contrails.

In my determination, this is creating a problem for any thread that presents evidence supporting a concern over chemtrails. Any such thread will be turned into another lecture hall for Fred259's rebuttal.

So I am giving Fred259 his own lecture hall - this thread. Perhaps he is right. I personally have not witnessed clear evidence of chemtrails. I am quite certain that TPTB are willing, able and determined to weaken us with a variety of threats real and imagined. Perhaps the "Chemtrail Threat" is just another fear mongering hoax of TPTB, intended to weaken us psychologically.

My guess is not -- but I don't know. So it is reasonable to me that that position have a place on this forum, if someone chooses to represent it. Fred259 clearly does so choose.

But those who are concerned that Chemtrails are a real threat, and who wish to present evidence and discussion to that view, also deserve a place on this forum, without being overwhelmed by lengthy rebuttals.

So I ask (and intend to insist) that Fred259 confine his Chemtrail related posts to this thread, henceforth.

P.S. -- Let me clarify something. I took the above actions to form this thread not because of what position regarding Chemtrails anyone took. Rather I took the above actions because one member's manner of presenting his position was unduly stressful to other threads and posts on the subject. Please see a post of mine, http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?20503-Chemtrails-don-t-exist&p=218873&viewfull=1#post218873, below for an analogy that shows in more detail what I was concerned with.

- Paul.

=========================

[ The following post of Fred259's was partially in response to Realeye's Post #4 (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?19092-David-Icke-Alex-Jones-Stewart-Swerdlow-Chemtrails-bloody-everywhere%21%21&p=210997&viewfull=1#post210997) on the other thread. -Paul.]

Realeyes,…good guy I like the way you ask “Does anyone know” rather than swim with the fish.

This member is a clear thinker…..

Chemtrails is a Psy Ops propaganda tool from the New World Order. One of many used. Don’t buy the BS folks. If you do you are a victim, and they control you. This is of course is what they want.

David Icke, Alex Jones and Stewart Swerdlow don’t know what they are talking about.

When they do they should speak up, given they don’t they should shut up.

Its possible they are all just caught up in this… possible…it’s not PC to be controversial on Avalon, I accept that many of you take heart from David…that’s doesn’t make him right.

If they persist in publishing this rubbish I’m calling them out as part of the problem and puppets for the New World Order.

Integrity, and clear thinking are critical with these criminals.


This is the document produced by the United Kingdom Government all party parliamentary select group on GeoEngineering or chemtrails.First I should explain what that is for those not in the UK.

Essentially it’s a group of MPs from all political groups, so a mix of Conservatives Labour, Liberals, Scots nationalist, Welsh etc who have been nominated to look into GeoEngineering and publish a consultation paper. This is ongoing, it’s a consultation paper.



GEO ENGINEERING.

http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200910/cmselect/cmsctech/221/221.pdf


First you need to read the document.

The problem is we read and listen to rubbish on the internet, you then look in the skies, and then a report comes from the House of Commons on Geo Engineering which you don’t read but put 2+2 together.

1) Read the document.
2) Read the document again
3) Read the document again and again.

Where does it say they are Geo Engineering? It doesn’t. It’s a consultation paper.

But for the last ten years you have believed these utter lies fed to you by Icke Jones and the rest. But no longer because having read the documents you will now be educated, and in so doing the people who try to control you dont win, you are smarter than them, Icke & Jones included!.





House of Commons Science & Technology Committee.



The Regulation of Geo Engineering Published 18 March 2010.

Page 6 We are of the view that the government should give the full range of policy options for managing climate changes due consideration and that GeoEngineering technologies should be evaluated as part of a portfolio of responses to climate change alongside mitigation and adaption efforts.

Before deploying any technology with a capacity to geo engineer the climate, we considered that it was essential that a rational debate on the ethics of Geo Engineering was conducted.

Page 7 Paragraph 5 … A Far more detailed study would be needed


Page 21 Paragraph 42 No Urgency……


Page 25 Paragraph 56 Public consultation.


Page 31 Paragraph 72 Public participation in Geo Engineering Decision Making.



Page 39 Paragraph 99 Formulating International regulations for GeoEngineering.



Page 44 Paragraph 113 Collaborative workings with US Congress. Washington DC




Again…. Don’t be a victim of the “New World Order”.

http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200910/cmselect/cmsctech/221/221.pdf

Save this to your favorites- don’t be a victim and don’t let them control you.

You don’t believe in the monster under the bed do you, so don’t believe this!

PS, Please don’t thank me for this post, you will be thanking me if you read and save the document.

[T Smith]

Chemtrails is a Psy Ops propaganda tool from the New World Order. One of many used. Don’t buy the BS folks. If you do you are a victim, and they control you. This is of course is what they want

Hi Fred. I find your impassioned pitch intriguing. You have my ear. Please elaborate on the psy ops campaign in which you believe the NWO is engaged. I'm interested in the how/why/and to what end...




This is the document produced by the United Kingdom Government all party parliamentary select group on GeoEngineering or chemtrails.First I should explain what that is for those not in the UK.

Essentially it’s a group of MPs from all political groups, so a mix of Conservatives Labour, Liberals, Scots nationalist, Welsh etc who have been nominated to look into GeoEngineering and publish a consultation paper. This is ongoing, it’s a consultation paper.

Where does it say they are Geo Engineering? It doesn’t. It’s a consultation paper.

Who disputes this? Yes, this is a consulation paper. This isn't an admission. As far as I understand this issue, the official line on geoengineering is tptb are not actually engaged in geoengineering, rather the "responsible governments" (meaning the UN) are simply "exploring" the possibilites. Key to this report is it represents the official line. I fail to make any connection to how this disproves actual covert geoengineering operations clearly in play, but if I am missing something, by all means you still have my ear.

[Fred259]

John what they want to do is turn you into a moron by feeding you all this rubbish.

You know don’t you that some real nasty bastards exist in this world. You only need to go down to London and visit the Tavistock Institute and see some of the dark practices that emanate from that organisation.

The next concept you must accept is that they are trying to dumb you down. Clearly this is not something that anyone would want. That being the case its best you treat most things you read and listen to on the web as highly suspect.

If you do this your mind and understanding will be free from those who seek to control you. To support this and the content of this thread I did this afternoon post up the HM Government Commons Select Committee report into Geo Engineering. It’s featured one above in post five.

The document clearly states that the committee is looking at all GeoEngineering options and that above all the public would be consulted and would have input into the outcome. It’s just a consultative document.

No decision has been made and probably given the length of time these things take will be in the order eight to ten years before any decision is made. That being the case its not really possible is it that they were GeoEngineering or chemtrailing over the NE of England today.

So what was the problem today. Look at the weather chart and you will see that high pressure dominates the whole of the UK and most of continental Europe at this time and this is the reason these jet trails are in the skies.

In your post you wonder if the weather will make a turn for the worst, No they will be gone by 22.00 tonight and you will see the stars all night. It will be the same tomorrow and perhaps for a week or so. When the high pressure system moves the atmosphere will change and you won’t see any trails just as it was last week.

John aircraft have no means whatsoever of spraying chemicals from the air, so please stop believing this.

I encourage you to look into this rather than believing everything you read on websites. If you choose not to sadly you are a victim of deception from the criminals in Tavistock Square.

[Fred259]

Chemtrails is a Psy Ops propaganda tool from the New World Order. One of many used. Don’t buy the BS folks. If you do you are a victim, and they control you. This is of course is what they want

Hi Fred. I find your impassioned pitch intriguing. You have my ear. Please elaborate on the psy ops campaign in which you believe the NWO is engaged. I'm interested in the how/why/and to what end...




This is the document produced by the United Kingdom Government all party parliamentary select group on GeoEngineering or chemtrails.First I should explain what that is for those not in the UK.

Essentially it’s a group of MPs from all political groups, so a mix of Conservatives Labour, Liberals, Scots nationalist, Welsh etc who have been nominated to look into GeoEngineering and publish a consultation paper. This is ongoing, it’s a consultation paper.

Where does it say they are Geo Engineering? It doesn’t. It’s a consultation paper.

Who disputes this? Yes, this is a consulation paper. This isn't an admission. As far as I understand this issue, the official line on geoengineering is tptb are not actually engaged in geoengineering, rather the "responsible governments" (meaning the UN) are simply "exploring" the possibilites. Key to this report is it represents the official line. I fail to make any connection to how this disproves actual covert geoengineering operations clearly in play, but if I am missing something, by all means you still have my ear.


See post seven.

I’m talking about lies and deception in an attempt to encourage members to question sometimes what they read.

I have a story.

Ive just returned from local hardware shop it’s called B&Q in the UK which is a national retailer who have many of these stores throughout the country, so it’s a big company.

They have allowed the Royal Society Protection Birds (RSPB) a conservation charity to set up a small stall and sell membership, bird foods and other smaller items to shoppers.

The public are led to believe that this conservation charity are involved in wildlife and conservation, please join and pay $5.00 per month to protect the birds visiting your back garden as it were.

Nothing could be further form the truth, yes a very small amount of money goes for the blackbirds and robins who visit the little only ladies garden he has just been persuaded to sign up.

The reality is that the charity which started with all good intentions has over the last ten years been infiltrated by thieves and gangsters who essentially swindle vast sums of money from the little old ladies and use this money to destroy society as we know it in the UK.

This is the work of criminals in the New World Order, we know who is doing this. This morning post related to the deception of so called chemtrailing whatever that is, and now this money laundering scam involving trickery and embezzlement. It’s never ending. A number of us are working on this and a report will be submitted to the charity commission. It’s hopefully that something could be done to stop this but you will find the same people exist in the charity commission and so the complaint is taken from the envelope and passed through the paper shredder. And so it goes on.

Smithy I don’t want my children to live in a country like this.


I disagree. I think it generally accepted that the US military are involved in aerial trails involving a number of applications in the NW USA, a known test area but apart from that I don’t agree with your comment.

If you are trying to suggest that a secret covert government is involved in GeoEngineering operations involving spraying a worldwide population, or even the US population I do think that’s a bit naughty. No real evidence exists of this, and as I mentioned earlier its all part of deception from the same covert government who you refer to sadly.

[T Smith]

John what they want to do is turn you into a moron by feeding you all this rubbish....The next concept you must accept is that they are trying to dumb you down. Clearly this is not something that anyone would want. That being the case its best you treat most things you read and listen to on the web as highly suspect.

This is certainly not earth-shattering news. If there is one thing we understand well it's that the controllers are actively seeking a myriad of ways to dumb down the masses. I'm thinking the most effective ways are GMO foods, vaccines, fluoride in the drinking water, aspertame, and various other poisons in the food supply, not to mention rendering the ever-dependent masses on mind-numbing products pushed by Big Pharma -- to name but a few. Throw in bread-and-circuses distractions riddled throughout our culture and indoctrination campaigns from cradle to grave. These are the most effective ways of dumbing down the masses. I fail to see how staging a non-existent chemtrail scare serves to dumb down society. But let's just say, for sake of illustration, that you are correct. Most of the people I run into have no idea whatsoever what a chemtrail is. If your assertion is correct, tptb are doing a horrible job of "dumbing down the masses" with their psy-ops chemtrailing exercise.




The document clearly states that the committee is looking at all GeoEngineering options and that above all the public would be consulted and would have input into the outcome. It’s just a consultative document. No decision has been made and probably given the length of time these things take will be in the order eight to ten years before any decision is made. That being the case its not really possible is it that they were GeoEngineering or chemtrailing over the NE of England today.



Yes, Fred. You've stated this already. And I concur. It does clearly state that the committee is looking at all GeoEngineering options and that above all the public would be consulted and would have input into the outcome. But you still haven't addressed my question above. How does this official document have anything to do with the covert geoengineering campaign currently afoot? That's why this chemtrailing thing is a covert operation and not an overt one. But to be clear: there have been numerous scientific summits and official papers that address geoengineering, much like the document you cite, all of which discuss the whys and hows, e.g. the logistics of geoengineering... but as far as I know, none of these official discussions ever admit that geoengineering is taking place. These are all just discussions (I would say precursors to the inevitability that chemtrailing will eventually have to go public). In any case, your logic here is a non sequitor, i.e., because the official consulting panel says they aren't geoengineering they must not be geoengineering... ?? If I'm missing something, please elucidate. I'm truly confused.




I encourage you to look into this rather than believing everything you read on websites. If you choose not to sadly you are a victim of deception from the criminals in Tavistock Square.

At the end of the day, forget about the Internet. How about using our eyes and our understanding of physics and look up into the skies? What more do we need?

[Dennis Leahy]

John aircraft have no means whatsoever of spraying chemicals from the air, so please stop believing this.

Um, wait a minute. Deja vu all over again. Didn't we talk about the fact that there most certainly aircraft with spraying equipment: "crop dusters", and that any seat-of-the-pants engineer could easily take the crop duster technology and make it work on larger (non-passenger) aircraft?

I have no doubt that we are fed lots of disinformation on various subjects, but suddenly in the skies, contrails no longer disappear, and soil samples show aluminum concentrations - in the very top layer - something like 6000 times greater than normal?

C'mon, where there's smoke, there's fire. Right? Or at least, worth looking into and not just dismissing, right?

Dennis

[Fred259]

[QUOTE=Fred259;211267]John what they want to do is turn you into a moron by feeding you all this rubbish....The next concept you must accept is that they are trying to dumb you down. Clearly this is not something that anyone would want. That being the case its best you treat most things you read and listen to on the web as highly suspect.

This is certainly not earth-shattering news. If there is one thing we understand well it's that the controllers are actively seeking a myriad of ways to dumb down the masses. I'm thinking the most effective ways are GMO foods, vaccines, fluoride in the drinking water, aspertame, and various other poisons in the food supply, not to mention rendering the ever-dependent masses on mind-numbing products pushed by Big Pharma -- to name but a few. Throw in bread-and-circuses distractions riddled throughout our culture and indoctrination campaigns from cradle to grave. These are the most effective ways of dumbing down the masses. I fail to see how staging a non-existent chemtrail scare serves to dumb down society. But let's just say, for sake of illustration, that you are correct. Most of the people I run into have no idea whatsoever what a chemtrail is. If your assertion is correct, tptb are doing a horrible job of "dumbing down the masses" with their psy-ops chemtrailing exercise.




The document clearly states that the committee is looking at all GeoEngineering options and that above all the public would be consulted and would have input into the outcome. It’s just a consultative document. No decision has been made and probably given the length of time these things take will be in the order eight to ten years before any decision is made. That being the case its not really possible is it that they were GeoEngineering or chemtrailing over the NE of England today.



Yes, Fred. You've stated this already. And I concur. It does clearly state that the committee is looking at all GeoEngineering options and that above all the public would be consulted and would have input into the outcome. But you still haven't addressed my question above. How does this official document have anything to do with the covert geoengineering campaign currently afoot? That's why this chemtrailing thing is a covert operation and not an overt one. But to be clear: there have been numerous scientific summits and official papers that address geoengineering, much like the document you cite, all of which discuss the whys and hows, e.g. the logistics of geoengineering... but as far as I know, none of these official discussions ever admit that geoengineering is taking place. These are all just discussions (I would say precursors to the inevitability that chemtrailing will eventually have to go public). In any case, your logic here is a non sequitor, i.e., because the official consulting panel says they aren't geoengineering they must not be geoengineering... ?? If I'm missing something, please elucidate. I'm truly confused.




I encourage you to look into this rather than believing everything you read on websites. If you choose not to sadly you are a victim of deception from the criminals in Tavistock Square.


At the end of the day, forget about the Internet. How about using our eyes and our understanding of physics and look up into the skies? What more do we need?


No these are contrails. I have spent the last two weeks trying to share this with the forum, by way of scientific documents explications photographs etc People aren’t really interested, and frankly Im beginning to think they want something to worry about. I don’t really see any further point in sharing this with the systemically fragile.

[T Smith]

Ive just returned from local hardware shop it’s called B&Q in the UK which is a national retailer who have many of these stores throughout the country, so it’s a big company.

They have allowed the Royal Society Protection Birds (RSPB) a conservation charity to set up a small stall and sell membership, bird foods and other smaller items to shoppers.

The public are led to believe that this conservation charity are involved in wildlife and conservation, please join and pay $5.00 per month to protect the birds visiting your back garden as it were.

Nothing could be further form the truth, yes a very small amount of money goes for the blackbirds and robins who visit the little only ladies garden he has just been persuaded to sign up.

The reality is that the charity which started with all good intentions has over the last ten years been infiltrated by thieves and gangsters who essentially swindle vast sums of money from the little old ladies and use this money to destroy society as we know it in the UK.

This kind of swindling has been going on since the dawn of time.




If you are trying to suggest that a secret covert government is involved in GeoEngineering operations involving spraying a worldwide population, or even the US population I do think that’s a bit naughty. No real evidence exists of this, and as I mentioned earlier its all part of deception from the same covert government who you refer to sadly.

This is exactly what I'm suggesting. A bit naughty is a bit of an understatement. If you think my suggestion is over the top, I suggest you read the following work by Historian Richard Dolan:

UFOs and the National Security State.

This is a very compelling and important work with evidence abound... at the end of the day, Chemtrailing is child's play in the grand scheme of things.

[Fred259]

[QUOTE=Fred259;211267]
John aircraft have no means whatsoever of spraying chemicals from the air, so please stop believing this.


Um, wait a minute. Deja vu all over again. Didn't we talk about the fact that there most certainly aircraft with spraying equipment: "crop dusters", and that any seat-of-the-pants engineer could easily take the crop duster technology and make it work on larger (non-passenger) aircraft?


Rubbish........Dennis go and dig the veggie garden for goodness sake, and have a think about it...

[Amer]

Fred I'm really interested in the whole chem/contrails debate- can you direct me to where I can find your documents, photos etc. ?
Can I ask you have you seen the film "What in the world are they spraying " and what did you think of it ?
Last question- may I ask what kind of backround you're coming from with the information you have ?
Thanks :-)

[Fred259]

Fred I'm really interested in the whole chem/contrails debate- can you direct me to where I can find your documents, photos etc. ?
Can I ask you have you seen the film "What in the world are they spraying " and what did you think of it ?
Last question- may I ask what kind of backround you're coming from with the information you have ?
Thanks :-)

No I fed up really... this is just a piss take.... However I will agree if you post and tell dennis to go to his veggie garden. I wonder what he actually grows....

[Ilie Pandia]

Hello Fred,

No need to be rude.



John aircraft have no means whatsoever of spraying chemicals from the air, so please stop believing this.


That statement cannot be correct in my view.

If you'd like to present evidence in support of that please do so, but please respect the fellow Avalonians that do not have your experience.

[Amer]

No I fed up really... this is just a piss take.... However I will agree if you post and tell dennis to go to his veggie garden. I wonder what he actually grows....
Ground control to Fred you're breaking up my friend !!!!! :attention:

[T Smith]

No these are contrails. I have spent the last two weeks trying to share this with the forum, by way of scientific documents explications photographs etc People aren’t really interested, and frankly Im beginning to think they want something to worry about. I don’t really see any further point in sharing this with the systemically fragile.

I've read the posts. They just were not convincing... to me. I'm not so much worried about it as I am interested at getting to the truth.

From my personal observation:

I've seen two planes in the same sky and roughly at the same altitude. One plane emits a trail that dissapates and the other a trial that expands and lingers. If there is some explanation of a contrail emitting from both of these aircraft, I'm very open to hearing it.

[Fred259]

Fred I'm really interested in the whole chem/contrails debate- can you direct me to where I can find your documents, photos etc. ?
Can I ask you have you seen the film "What in the world are they spraying " and what did you think of it ?
Last question- may I ask what kind of backround you're coming from with the information you have ?
Thanks :-)

I prepared this this morning for an English website,Im happy to spend time on this if folks are serious, so its up to you...


The atmosphere is like a living reef.

It’s best to compare the atmosphere with an undersea living coral reef. Things are changing all the time as nature changes weather systems, forming clouds and then dissipating clouds, water held in a gaseous state (vapor) then cooled to become water droplets, cooled again as the air rises and changing again to ice, further cooling ice rising in convective currents, flowing from high pressure to low pressure, cooling as it rises.

Wait a moment this is a storm cloud building, severe cumulonimbus death traps, ice is now rising at 7,000 feet per minute cooling instantly, first it’s pellets then it’s ping ponk ball size, as it continues rising in less dense air.

The speed of cooling increases now its tennis ball size, hurtling through the lower atmosphere this is nature we are describing, further shock cooling; now its great chunks of ice being sucked upwards as high as the tropopause or 50,000 feet in Australia, Florida and the tropics but less in higher latitudes 20-30,000 say max.

You’ve seen those massive big clouds develop especially in the tropics or on holiday. When its moisture source is removed look for the anvil cloud at the very top, this is a sign that its finished developing and will shortly start to dissipate, time to get the kids indoors. This has spoilt many an afternoon BBQ in summer.

I’m not exaggerating appreciate tens of thousands of tons of water sublimated into ice above your house at 30-50,000 feet the size of footballs. Now the whole lot is about to come thundering down, no an umbrella isn’t going to save you!

However nature does because the tennis balls are now falling en masse perhaps spread over a large area 30sq miles for example warming and melting as they fall.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_cl0aw87LqA&feature=related
The development stages of a Thunderstorm. CB Cloud. This is the “living atmosphere”.

In the sky the daylight drops, the pressure shoots up (caused by what’s about to fall) and the temp drops dramatically, you feel it in the air and even on your skin it's cold dense air (it's come from 50,000ft and -60C).. all caused by what is about to fall from the heavens.

By the time it reaches above the ground the wind direction veers (clockwise) and increases dramatically, gust front and wind shear dominate the local area then it's pelting hard in N Europe, very hard in Spain and Very very very hard in Australia and the tropics, hail stones drilling on tin roofs severe enough to destroy whole orchards and crops, and causing flash local flooding.

It’s a living atmosphere, it’s like the great barrier reef, its nature it’s a continual process.

Clouds & Contrails.

Clouds and contrails are formed when the wet and dry bulb temperatures are the same or close to the same. The atmosphere will have 100% relative humidity in a super cooled super saturated air mass.

What is wet and dry bulb temperature.

Below is an image of a wet dry bulb thermometer, you already know how contrails are formed because you did this at school, you’ve just forgotten, it happens with us all.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Wetdryhygrometer.JPG


The wet and dry bulb thermometer is no different from the temperature gauge you have on your doorstep.

The dry bulb measures the temp of the air on your doorstep lets say +10C

The wet bulb temp is the temp of the moisture in the air that’s held in a gaseous state ie vapor lets say its +6.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wet-bulb_temperature


Relative Humidity.

Relative humidity in simple terms is the amount of moisture that can be held in the atmosphere in a gaseous state.

At or close to 100% relative humidity at ground level mist will form.

At or close to 100% relative humidity at altitude cloud and contrails will form.

When relative humidity is 100% it’s known as super cooled or super saturated.

When relative humidity is less than 100% the moisture is held in a gaseous state and no mist will form at ground level or cloud or contrails at altitude.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Relative_humidity


Latent Heat.

The addition or removal of latent heat will change the state of the atmosphere.

Climbing through the atmosphere remember temp, pressure and density are decreasing.
Air in a gaseous state contains moisture.

When this moisture is cooled condensation occurs.
Further intense cooling will turn the condensation to liquid water.
Further intense cooling will turn the liquid water by freezing into ice.

And

Descending through the atmosphere, remember temp, pressure and density are now increasing.

Ice warms and turns to liquid water by melting.
Further warming will turn the liquid water into condensation.
Further warming will turn the condensation into a gaseous state.(vapor)

Think about what really happens when you defrost the fridge, it’s exactly the same.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latent_heat

Your Back Garden on a Winters Day.

At midday the dry bulb temp is +6C and the wet bulb temp +1C.

Moisture is held in the atmosphere in a gaseous state. Relative humidity is 80%

The sun goes below the horizon, and the dry bulb temp falls to +1C

Moisture is no longer able to remain in a gaseous state and relative humidity shoots up to 100%

The wet dry bulb is now +1C and the wet bulb is +1C. Both are the same.

The air in the garden is now super cooled and super saturated.

Condensation forms. The condensation is mist.

Mist and fog are the same thing. Mist has a forward visibility of one nautical mile (6080ft) Fog forms when forward visibility is less than one nautical mile again (6080ft)

Further cooling will turn mist into fog, and so it’s foggy in the garden overnight.

By 09.00 inbound solar radiation from the sun heats the earth and the dry bulb temp rises, turning the fog into mist.

By 10.00 further heating and inbound radiation turns the mist to low level stratus cloud.

By 11.00 further heating has caused the cloud to disappear. BUT Moisture is being held in the atmosphere in a gaseous state with relative humidity at 80%.


Now we are going to travel through the atmosphere with the wet and dry bulb thermometer in our hand.

We take the same garden thermometer and change the scale to minus figures.

If it were possible to slowly lift a wet and dry bulb thermometer through the atmosphere to 35,000 feet this is what would happen. Remember we said it’s a living atmosphere, like a coral reef.

At ground level the dry bulb temp is +10C and the wet bulb temp is +2C.

Temperature, density, and pressure all decrease with altitude. That is to say when the aircraft climbs in altitude TD&P will decrease and when it descends from altitude TD&P will increase.

TD&P increase and decrease at varying amounts, but in general dry air or dry bulb temp will decrease at 3C per thousand feet and wet bulb or saturated air will decrease at 1.5C per thousand feet.

From this we can see that as dry air cools more rapidly compared with saturated air at some point perhaps say 10,000 both temps will be the same.

Therefore;

Passing 10,000 feet the dry and wet temps go together at -15C so at this altitude the air is supersaturated 100% relative humidity and clouds and contrails will form. This is the cloud base.

At 20,000 feet as the dry bulb temp is -25C and the wet bulb is -25C so contrails or clouds will form. This is the cloud tops.

At 21,000 the dry and wet bulb temps are now separate so we are in clear air. No Cloud no contrail.

At 22,000 feet wet and dry bulbs are together both at -28C and so clouds and contrails will again form.

At 23,000 feet wet and dry bulbs are separated again -30C and -33C so no clouds and contrails form.

At 35,000 feet the air is very cold -60C, but it’s also very dry, so if the relative humidity is 100% cirrus clouds will form, gently is this thin (less dense) rarefied upper atmosphere.

What is happening in the atmosphere throughout all levels is the same that happened in the back garden. It’s nature, it’s the living atmosphere.

Having watched the video of how the cumulonimbus storm cloud formed above appreciate that in this living atmosphere this is happening all the time and reasonably fast.

Along comes the early morning traffic contrails will form and last all day. Its not just one aircraft, perhaps 50, or 500 aircraft appreciate that 2,000 cross the Atlantic per day via over Cornwall, Wales or Scotland.

If the relative humidity at 35,000 feet was 80% no clouds or contrails will form perhaps in the morning for example. 400 aircraft went over and you didn’t even notice.

If at 12.00 local the relative humidity increases towards 100% very thin cirrus clouds (ice crystals) and contrails will form. 300 aircraft go over and you shake your head in utter dismay! Then we read on internet forums “they started spraying at dinnertime” !

By 15.00 local with the relative humidity still at 100% these contrails have now spread to cirrus stratus cloud and the blue sky is starting to disappear. More head shaking. Then we read on forums “I watched a video”. And “it’s the government Bush is poisoning us”

By 18.00 local the relative humidity drops to 80%, the clouds and contrails disappear, yet 400 aircraft pass overhead and you don’t even notice.

By 21.00 local the relative humidity drops to 60% and the dry and wet bulb temp are miles apart and what happens? It turns into a lovely still evening with deep blue skies, and its gin clear horizon to horizon.

It’s the living atmosphere.

The Tephigram Chart.

How does the Met man know the base and tops of clouds? How do they prepare a forecast? The answer is they have to obtain the dry and wet bulb temps from altitude and they do this by sending up a radio sonde weather balloon or by calling a passing aircraft and asking them for the T&Ps

The balloon reports back the temps and pressures and they then print this on a graph.

Click on this forum link and scroll down. This is the Tephigram chart from the met man.

The dry bulb temp is plotted and the wet bulb temp (also known as dew point) is also plotted

On the left is the altitude scale. On the left hand column the 500mb level is 18,000 ft, 300mb is 30,000feet, 200mb is 40,000 and 100mb is 53,000ft.

You can see that from ground level to 500mb (18,000 ft) both the lines are together or almost, so this means the temps are the same all through this lower atmosphere, relative humidity is 100% super saturated air mass and so clouds and contrails will form always.

Above 500mb (18,000ft) the wet and dry bulb temps are miles apart relative humidity drops to say 80% and no clouds or contrails will ever form.

Notice that at the 300mb level (30,000 ft) the green line dry bulb starts to drift towards the red line. If they did come together at 30,000 contrails would form along with cirrus clouds.(ice crystals)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tephigram


That’s it. This is how clouds and contrails are formed. However remember we said it’s a living atmosphere so it’s changing all the time it never stops.

Clouds are formed by this method as are contrails when the relative humidity is 100%.

Clouds are formed by convection (warm air heating and rising and cooling as per the chart)

By Orographic uplift, which is a large parcel of air, by that I mean perhaps the size of Europe pushing against a mountain ridge. The air rises and cools. Look at the chart. When the green and red lines come together the cloud will form.

By Ascent. At weather fronts for example. Cold dense air exists at the surface and will push underneath the less dense warm air pushing it aloft. This creates instability which really means an unstable atmosphere, which aslo means as a consequence unstable weather at ground level. Look at the chart, when the lines come together the clouds and contrails will form.

Go sit in your back garden in the deckchair with your sunglasses on and study the clouds for thirty minutes. They are pushing and shoving rising and falling inside those clouds these two lines are being modified as you watch them just think of the red and green lines from the chart, the cloud forms at one place and dissipates in another part of the sky. This is nature in the living atmosphere.

If you live in and around Daventry or the Midlands this is what is going over your head every day, maybe 800 per day going to Northern England and Scotland and another 2000 crossing the Atlantic. If we assume a mean of 3 engines per aircraft that over 8,000 engines per day going over your head. Are we starting to get this into prospective…


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xl6iR7w7a_Q
Contrail from Qantas A380 at dawn over the South China Sea.

The problem is that this is quite a rare video and 99.9% of people will have never see or understand what is going on here..but you do….. Then someone mentions the C word. That is C of Chemical and C for Chemtrail and now they (whoever they are) are spraying and poisoning us. Then we read comments like OMG Look WTF Proof 100% !!! its George Bush poisoning us!!!

[Dennis Leahy]

Hi Fred,

Indeed, the ground has finally thawed here, and even though we did get some snow a few days ago, I think spring is coming soon! Time for gardening. Hope there's not too much aluminum in the soil! I might have to go shopping at Monsanto's new seed store, the one where they sell seeds genetically engineered to grow in soil contaminated with extreme amounts of aluminum. (US patent # 7582809 )

I want you to convince me Fred. I am listening, and I want you to keep trying. I think concentrating on the temperature differentials in the sky and the increased air traffic (which I think are the major two points you've been stressing) are a blind alley. You are familiar with crop dusters, right? Are you saying that there is an engineering problem that would prevent a higher altitude jet aircraft from dispersing chemicals?

Soil scientists can measure levels of aluminum, and can isolate layers for sampling. It is forensic science, not wild-eyed crazy people thinking up new things to be be frightened by.

The aluminum is there, in very high concentrations, and it is a new phenomenon. Where do you think it comes from?

Monsanto did spend the money and time to patent a seed resistant to aluminum. Why do you think they did that?

Aircraft can and do spray chemicals, and that's not rubbish.

So, staying away from temperature differentials confusing people into believing that contrails are chemtrails or that their memory (and photographs) of blue skies has been replaced by memories (and photographs) of blue-gray skies, what do you think is the story on the outrageous increase in aluminum particulates, and how did it get here?

Dennis

[Fred259]

Hello Fred,

No need to be rude.

No Im not being rude, he’s out of order, he’s winding me up




John aircraft have no means whatsoever of spraying chemicals from the air, so please stop believing this.


That statement cannot be correct in my view.
Ok prove it…

Liie, You have here a forum with 2,000 + members many who have been deceived and tricked. They look to the skies and see trails and they think the government are spraying.

This is not happening and Im trying to demonstrate that they are victims of the NWO, and don’t fall for this nonsense.

It matters not to me if they believe it or not. I just don’t like to see people being fooled especially by the criminals…

[Amer]

This is not happening and Im trying to demonstrate that they are victims of the NWO, and don’t fall for this nonsense.

Bear with me Fred, I'm slow on processing information, but my interest is genuine so please explain it to me - Why do they want us to believe we're being sprayed on ?

[john.d]

Im fairly sure its not atmospheric pressure because as i was watching the planes today leaving a mess in the sky , i also watched planes with normal contrails . Surely that blows the argument out of the window . And by the way Fred , i think your rude and arrogant . There is no need for it either . People are entitled to their opinions , and i for one dont agree with yours .

John

[Eikoor21]

So what can be done here?
Meditation is a good option to strengthen your inner energies
In my opinion, our conscious being is stronger than all of this.
No matter what, we must strengthen our hearts to lead us correctly
The mind and our senses can deeply fool us, as well with all this controversy and information tugging at us from different directions.
In the end i am also confused at times when i reason with my mind.
opinions anybody?

-Great love :o

[Dennis Leahy]

Please, folks, have a heated, passionate debate, fire away at ideas, but not at each other. I can personally handle the sparring, and chose to let the stuff naming me roll off me, but please stop short of ad hominems. It's impossible to know how sensitive any one individual is to being named in a post, so just stick to attacking positions and concepts and ideas and not individuals. Cool?

Dennis

[Amer]

So what can be done here?
Meditation is a good option to strengthen your inner energies
In my opinion, our conscious being is stronger than all of this.
No matter what, we must strengthen our hearts to lead us correctly
The mind and our senses can deeply fool us, as well with all this controversy and information tugging at us from different directions.
In the end i am also confused at times when i reason with my mind.
opinions anybody?



You might find some answers in the Enlightenment thread - I'm still struggling with dry and wet bulb temperatures :noidea:

[Eikoor21]

Yes i agree with Dennis, the potential we have to acknowledge and speculate about these things are great
but we should have utter respect and love for each other.
Because if we don't we make ourselves regress to a state of ignorance
that I'm sure we are all trying to overcome and to go beyond of.
lets grow together not apart.

-Great love :o

[fox.mulder]

Well there is one way to put this all to rest. Someone has to fly up into a "Con/Chem Trail" and take a sample. Simple really.

The Truth Is Out (or up) There.........

[T Smith]

Well there is one way to put this all to rest. Someone has to fly up into a "Con/Chem Trail" and take a sample. Simple really.

The Truth Is Out (or up) There.........

I believe this has already been done. See carnicom.com

[Fred259]

Im fairly sure its not atmospheric pressure because as i was watching the planes today leaving a mess in the sky , i also watched planes with normal contrails . Surely that blows the argument out of the window . And by the way Fred , i think your rude and arrogant . There is no need for it either . People are entitled to their opinions , and i for one dont agree with yours .
John
John, ,,, We have high pressure at the moment and the atmosphere is such that these contrails will form. It’s been the same here in Scotland all day, indeed probably by the same aircraft that you noticed as well, but as I said earlier it’s a clear sky tonight. Believe me they aren’t spraying you.

As for your comment about being rude if you look back on the thread I had just posted up documents detailing all this to reassure you and others about all the misinformation that abounds, and yet you obviously choose to ignore them which is fair enough,…I wont bother in future…

John… Ive just passed your thread again, it’s perfectly normal to have long contrails short contrails and no contrails all in the same sky. It happens all the time, but if you see a big thick trail I honestly swear on the bible that he is not spraying you…seriously this just does not happen….

[Amer]

Go sit in your back garden in the deckchair with your sunglasses on and study the clouds for thirty minutes. They are pushing and shoving rising and falling inside those clouds these two lines are being modified as you watch them just think of the red and green lines from the chart, the cloud forms at one place and dissipates in another part of the sky. This is nature in the living atmosphere

"Contrail formation/dissipation and cloud formation are to be recognized as two separate physical processes resulting from differing conditions and variables for each. It is important that any analysis of these two processes be appropriately and separately understood before any mutual connection is to be made" from Clifford Carnicom

[Fred259]

No these are contrails. I have spent the last two weeks trying to share this with the forum, by way of scientific documents explications photographs etc People aren’t really interested, and frankly Im beginning to think they want something to worry about. I don’t really see any further point in sharing this with the systemically fragile.


I've read the posts. They just were not convincing... to me. I'm not so much worried about it as I am interested at getting to the truth.

This is the truth..
From my personal observation:

I've seen two planes in the same sky and roughly at the same altitude. One plane emits a trail that dissapates and the other a trial that expands and lingers. If there is some explanation of a contrail emitting from both of these aircraft, I'm very open to hearing it.

Yes this is normal, it depends on the state of the atmosphere and the relative humidity at that altitude.

Think of it like this.

You drive down a road in winter and enter a fog bank, then it’s clear for one mile, then another fog bank, then clear for one mile, then another fog bank…

So what is happening is when you are in the fog the relative humidity of the atmosphere is 100% and this is what’s caused the fog.

When you are driving in the clear the relative humidity of the atmosphere is less than 100% say 80%. This is the reasons it’s clear.

Precisely the same happens in the upper atmosphere if the relative humidity is 100% clouds and contrails will form. Always.

If the relative humidity is less than 100% say 80% clouds and contrails won’t form. Ever.

[Fred259]

Go sit in your back garden in the deckchair with your sunglasses on and study the clouds for thirty minutes. They are pushing and shoving rising and falling inside those clouds these two lines are being modified as you watch them just think of the red and green lines from the chart, the cloud forms at one place and dissipates in another part of the sky. This is nature in the living atmosphere


"Contrail formation/dissipation and cloud formation are to be recognized as two separate physical processes resulting from differing conditions and variables for each. It is important that any analysis of these two processes be appropriately and separately understood before any mutual connection is to be made" from Clifford Carnicom
Yes he is right, he is right in what he is saying here.

Contrails are formed by exhaust mostly water being ejected into the atmosphere and forming a contrail. This trail will be made up of ice crystals. In the winds they will dissipate slowly into cirrus clouds thin and wispy. Contrails are the product of combustion and so man made.

Cirrus clouds are also made of ice crystals, however these have occurred because the atmosphere at that altitude is 100% supersaturated causing the cloud to form by nature.

Cirrus clouds are generally few and far between and when the contrails dissipate they mix with the naturally made cirrus. He is trying to make that distinction. I would agree with him.

[Fred259]

Oh yeah, just thought I might repost this, chem and con trails separating , saw this and dashed for my camera,
7151

Well we discussed this. You say that’s what they are doing, because you have been misinformed. Maybe if you take it to your local airline company and ask them what’s going on.

[Ilie Pandia]

Hello Fred,

You are, of course, entitled to your opinions but I would like to counteract your statements on this thread:



David Icke, Alex Jones and Stewart Swerdlow don’t know what they are talking about.
[...]
If they persist in publishing this rubbish I’m calling them out as part of the problem and puppets for the New World Order.
[...]
Integrity, and clear thinking are critical with these criminals.
[...]
But no longer because having read the documents you will now be educated, and in so doing the people who try to control you dont win, you are smarter than them, Icke & Jones included!


These are public attacks on people that have done a lot of research work and do not deserve to be called criminals or NWO puppets.

They may get some of their information wrong, but so can you.

Just for the record, I completely disagree with the quoted comments and I believe I am not alone in doing that.


And just for everyone to see what Dennis is talking about:

http://www.sciencephoto.com/images/download_wm_image.html/E776076-Aircraft_spraying_a_cotton_field_with_insecticide-SPL.jpg?id=697760076
source (http://www.sciencephoto.com/images/download_lo_res.html?id=697760076)

http://www.sunshine-project.org/publications/bk/images/sloppyspray.jpg
source (http://www.sunshine-project.org/publications/bk/bk14.html)

http://cooberpedyregionaltimes.files.wordpress.com/2010/08/crop_dusting.jpg?w=265&h=178
source (http://cooberpedyregionaltimes.wordpress.com/2010/08/22/mla-locust-control-chemicals-may-expose-food-crops-and-livestock-in-sa/)

http://photos.imageevent.com/firesat/strangedaysstrangeskies/large/718260.jpg
source (http://imageevent.com/firesat/strangedaysstrangeskies;jsessionid=gtxhxgw6o1.eagle_s?p=6&n=1&m=-1&c=4&l=0&w=4&s=0&z=3)

So, yes, aircraft have some means to spray chemical stuff from the air :).

[Fred259]

This is a photo of stuff falling out of the sky following two weeks of 'trailing just prior to the harvest,
7150

“Stuff Falling from the Sky” . I agree………very important and something I think the forum should know, so I will prepare a post with an explanation and provide documents.. this is important…

[Fred259]

Hello Fred,

You are, of course, entitled to your opinions but I would like to counteract your statements on this thread:



David Icke, Alex Jones and Stewart Swerdlow don’t know what they are talking about.
[...]
If they persist in publishing this rubbish I’m calling them out as part of the problem and puppets for the New World Order.
[...]
Integrity, and clear thinking are critical with these criminals.
[...]
But no longer because having read the documents you will now be educated, and in so doing the people who try to control you dont win, you are smarter than them, Icke & Jones included!


These are public attacks on people that have done a lot of research work and do not deserve to be called criminals or NWO puppets.
No they have not done research work, if they had they wouldn’t be publishing these mistruths.

I did not call them criminals, I think if you look again I was talking about the NWO who are criminals in my view.


They may get some of their information wrong, but so can you.

Indeed, but I make sure Im certain of the facts before I post. I want to say something else about this below.


Just for the record, I completely disagree with the quoted comments and I believe I am not alone in doing that.

I can fully understand you disagree. I was most disappointed to see them publishing this continual nonsense. I also feel let down by them, but time will tell.

Separately and O/T, You were making in my view irresponsible comments about the US engaging in an act of war against China ! How do you know that? Its not just a minor comment Ilie don’t you think you have a responsibility as well? Do you think people were reassured by your comment or otherwise..

[Fred259]

Here's my take on the chemtrails, purely based on observation.
For a long time I simply didn't believe there was anything more sinister than these were 'aeroplane exhaust trails'. What I failed to grasp was this is a new phenomena so why do we get these very long non dispersing trails criss-crossing the sky?

Fact 1. We never used to get them until late 70's/ early 80's. Why?
Fact 2. Even in high pressure conditions.
Fact 3. They have specific patterning, lot of lines but only usually one specific A shape. (the dispersant?)

Fred, the level of passion in your posts is palpable, in fact, to me it doesn't even sound like 'you'.

Personally even though I listen to and read 'official stuff' I realise there is always a lot of spinola, it is usually to justify the funding for the enquiry or research, not the truth as we would like to hear it. I have done a lot of statistical research and I know how easy it is for data to be skewed for a miriad of reasons. Even the simple 'research question' may be way off even experimenter bias. Personal perception is often coloured by experience so my observations of chemtrails may be biased also. As may yours of the document you strongly promote.

g

I would agree they were not so pronounced. Traffic volume has increase dramatically over the last forty years. In the 1970s Stanstead didn’t exist, now they talk about building another runway to meet demand, or were.

Manchester Airport only had one runway now it has two. I think Gardener the same could be said for the M1 what was the traffic in the 1970s compared with today. We didn’t have an M25 in the 1970s look at it today.

Trails and clouds will form regardless of the weather system. If the relative humidity is 100% they form if less say80% they don’t. I do agree with Hp and clearer skies they are obviously seen.

The solution to all this is to ban aircraft operating above 20,000ft and you will never see them again. However the price of your ticket may go up…

Engine design has also changed since the 1970s bigger more powerful engines.

Im actually quite shocked that people seem to want to believe this…

Is that your home Garden… Gardner.. I’m very impressed..

[Fred259]

Hi Fred,

Indeed, the ground has finally thawed here, and even though we did get some snow a few days ago, I think spring is coming soon! Time for gardening. Hope there's not too much aluminum in the soil! I might have to go shopping at Monsanto's new seed store, the one where they sell seeds genetically engineered to grow in soil contaminated with extreme amounts of aluminum. (US patent # 7582809 )

I want you to convince me Fred. I am listening, and I want you to keep trying.

Your taking the Mic..where did you get that shirt from!

Ok I will be serious now.


I think concentrating on the temperature differentials in the sky and the increased air traffic (which I think are the major two points you've been stressing) are a blind alley.

Dry bulb temperature and wet bulb temperature (Dew Point) and the relativity of the atmosphere are the three essentially components in the formation of clouds and contrails. Honestly, all over the world. Ask your father in law.


I have some info on traffic stats I will post them up.



You are familiar with crop dusters, right? Are you saying that there is an engineering problem that would prevent a higher altitude jet aircraft from dispersing chemicals?

Yes…. You can’t really compare the two…imagine a sealed tank on the ground for chemicals, then you take it to 30,000 ft what happens to the tank? Expand or contract? Take it back down to earth expand or contract? These things can be resolved but huge engineering issues need to be overcome.

If these tanks are fitted they must by law be certified, even rivets have documents. Each rivet has a part number so it can be traced. Wiring as thick as your figure or your arm each wire has a part number stamped on it every six inches. If any of this was happening a full paper audit trail would be available for inspection. That really my point..


Soil scientists can measure levels of aluminum, and can isolate layers for sampling. It is forensic science, not wild-eyed crazy people thinking up new things to be be frightened by.

OK, but they could have come from anywhere, I was trying to explain this to a member in Kansas and she thought I was just making it up so I gave up…



The aluminum is there, in very high concentrations, and it is a new phenomenon. Where do you think it comes from?
Monsanto did spend the money and time to patent a seed resistant to aluminum. Why do you think they did that?

Are you talking about liquid aluminium, or chaff? I fully expect the USAF will be using chaff dispensers, for all sorts of reasons…mainly training I would suggest.


Aircraft can and do spray chemicals, and that's not rubbish.

Dennis, the forum think that each and every day when they see a trail that it’s the government spraying them…I don’t really care any more, really I should just laugh and leave it but I genuinely want to reassure them this is not happening. I don’t like seeing people falling for the NWO, just as you don’t.. I don’t know anything about the altered DNA and am grateful for those that do and share that information with me, that’s all Im about…

Yes crop dusters and specialist aircraft for oil suppression etc but the folks in Brisbane, Berlin, Barcelona, Boston look up and think OMG chemtrails that’s what I’m talking about…the criminals are deceiving them… seriously ask your old dad, gently kind of wiggle your way into the conversation…for your own good!


So, staying away from temperature differentials.

No. Your being naughty... You don’t want to admit that it’s got anything to do with the temps, so let’s put it like this. The dry and wet bulb temps are the fundamental reasons we are able to exist on this planet. This is what causes clouds (and contrails) without clouds we would have no rain, and without rain we would have no crops…so even your own garden wouldn’t grow. It’s fundamental for the existence of mankind on this planet. You cant dismiss it…


What do you think is the story on the outrageous increase in aluminum particulates, and how did it get here?

Ive read and studied the reports of Mt Shasta, but what I would say, is that the atmosphere and climatology is such that they could have come from anywhere. We get sand from the Sahara covering the car in Scotland in mid summer, so in Washington / Oregon they could equally have come from China or Russia Japan. But Im certain they didn’t come from an aircraft tank…they don’t have tanks..

PS Sorry for the delay in responding...

[Fred259]

This is a photo of stuff falling out of the sky following two weeks of 'trailing just prior to the harvest,

7155
Hadley Cell showing the subsiding air, surface divergence, ascending air and upper level converging air.

The post from Some Bloke is the most important on the thread IMHO.

He reports that stuff has been falling from the skies following two weeks of jet trails just prior to harvest. He lives in England lets say in the middle of the UK. A member in Kansas also reported sand on farm machinery, thinking this had come from aircraft.

It’s important because this is how the sand and particles arrive and it needs to be considered that problems exist in Japan. Bill has also mentioned issues with China and possible disease born warfare. This is how disease in cattle for example crosses borders, swine flu and much more.

In a Low pressure system warm air rises. In a HP system cold air subsides.

When HP dominates cold air now flows from the HP over the Midwest towards the LP at ground level. The air is cold and so subsides.

On reaching the ground HP starts to build up from this incoming air at the surface and the air is forced west as far as California Mexico and east as far as N Carolina.

As the air travels close to the ground it’s warmed, but it also collects particles dust sand harvest chaff even flies etc.

Low pressure now exists at altitude and so the warm air rise along with all the sand etc and flows towards the centre of the LP over the Midwest. The incoming air now dominates and HP starts building up again at altitude over the Midwest.

Eventually the air circulation is complete with the cold air at altitude subsiding over the Midwest and in so doing dumping sand etc on the farmyard machinery.

The process then starts again so what we are talking about is ;

HP Cold air descending over the Midwest.
Surface level divergence and warming
Ascent with the warm air rising vertically
Upper level convergence towards the LP centre.


This movement of air over vast continents was discovered by Hadley and thus it’s called the Hadley Cell.

The Kansas farmer reports’ sands on the Farm. These sand will have been collected in desert areas and held in suspension in the atmosphere prior to be deposited by subsiding cold air througout the Midwest.. Some Bloke reports stuff falling two weeks ahead of harvest. Likewise the circular flow of air has collected sand dust and harvest chaff perhaps from France and deposited these throughout much of northern Europe.

The circular flow is illustrated on the picture.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hadley_cell


http://mynasadata.larc.nasa.gov/glossary.php?&word=Hadley%20Cell

[gigha]

Fred259 Hi still not sure how i feel about the hole Chemtrail thing, i do have to say i like looking at the effect of wind.
This last post was very informative. Thanks gigha. :)

[chancy]

Hello Fred:
Sounds like you are an expert on chemtrails? I am glad to hear that! I wanted to know IF you have ever seen one? I'm not talking crop spraying or just passenger jets flying by.....
I have seen lots of them and I know the difference between crop spraying, contrails and chemtrails. Where I live there is constant crop spraying all summer and fall.
As of 2 years ago I had never heard of a chemtrail and thought anyone talking about them was bonkers BUT as I noticed jets passing by there were some distinct differences.
1. Normal jets left a trail but it didn't roll and make a blanketed cloud cover. Sometimes the trail stayed in the air but just drifted into oblivion. Sosmtimes it just dissipated.
2. Jets that were flying criss cross thoughout the sky with no place to go. These trails (didn't know they were called chemtrails) tended to have much bigger trails and they rolled like rolling out a carpet. The last major ones I saw there were six jets doing massive criss cross patterns and within an hour the sky was completely overcast. Definitely not your normal jet passing by.
Here is are 3 videos that you could say were doctored BUT I say is spraying something and it's not jet fuel.
I'm sure NO ONE is ever going to convince you otherwise BUT whatever these jets are spraying and it's always jets in our area that do a criss cross grid pattern. NO COMMERCIAL JETS would ever do criss cross patterns since they are usually on auto pilot. ( Have family that fly the big birds and even they talk about all the activity in the air.
May the videos at least make you smile ^_^ then people will wonder what you're upto....
PS If you missed the Royal wedding Kates dress definitely will get anyone smiling ^_^
Have a great day and IF you really want to see REAL CHEMTRAILS come visit another common wealth country (Canada) Lots to see..........
Regards,
Chancy


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kh7qA2tqQ5c
http://youtu.be/kh7qA2tqQ5c


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gR6KVYJ73AU
http://youtu.be/gR6KVYJ73AU


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jf0khstYDLA
http://youtu.be/jf0khstYDLA

[john.d]

Well , its a totally grey sky today .... What a suprise !

John

[Fred259]

Well , its a totally grey sky today .... What a suprise !

John

Lol.. well because I was rough with you yesterday I had a look at the weather for east Midland Airport with is by Derbyshire England….

EGNX 050950Z 13010KT 9999 -SHRA SCT044 13/05 Q1018

This means:

East Midlands at 09.50Z (GMT) the wind was from 130 degrees (SE) at 10Knots 9999 means visibility is greater than 10nm, -SHRA in slight showers of rain, SCT044 means scattered cloud at 4,400ft scattered also means half the sky is covered.
Now the important info 13/05 Dry bulb temp +13C wet bulb temp +5C Pressure 1018mb.

The forecast for East Midlands for the next 24hrs.
EGNX 050456Z 0506/0606 14008KT 9999 SCT040
PROB30
TEMPO 0513/0519 8000 SHRA
PROB30 0602/0606 7000

No real change, but between 05.00GMT and 19.00GMT today 30% probability tempo means temporary visibility will reduce to 8000metres in showers of rain. They always put in 30% I don’t think you will get rain and if you do only for a very short time.


So let’s work this live example…

13/05 Dry bulb temp +13C wet bulb temp +5C Pressure 1018mb


Altitude Dry / Wet

6000ft

5000ft

4500ft -0.5C -2.5C Cloud base & freezing level 100% RH

3000ft +4C +0.5C

2000ft +7C +2C

1000ft +10C +3.5C

Ground +13C +5C

Dry bulb temp rises and cools at 3C /000 feet
Wet bulb temp rises and cools ay1.5C/000 feet

When illustrated on a chart we can see that the dry bulb temp will be -0.5C at 4500ft and the wet bulb temp will also be -2.5C at 4500 ft. This is the freezing level and the base of the clouds will form at 4500ft because the wet bulb can no longer hold moisture in the air as gas or in a gaseous state. The air is super saturated and also super cooled (freezing)

Therefore we that is Fred in Scotland and John in England having calculated the cloud level at East Midlands Airport to be 4,500 feet.

What does the Met man say in his report; Ohhhhh SCT 044 - Scattered at 4,400 ft. OK we were 100 feet short but good enough for government work I think.

What about contrails?

I checked on another website at the relative humidity was 66% at ground level. So by 5 perhaps 6,000 feet small contrails are going to form.

So I think its going to be pleasant afternoon, I don’t think you will get any rain…but you will and I’m frightened to type this you will get contrails!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lapse_rate



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8BYWsmp9OY8

[Fred Steeves]

This is the document produced by the United Kingdom Government all party parliamentary select group on GeoEngineering or chemtrails.First I should explain what that is for those not in the UK.

Essentially it’s a group of MPs from all political groups, so a mix of Conservatives Labour, Liberals, Scots nationalist, Welsh etc who have been nominated to look into GeoEngineering and publish a consultation paper. This is ongoing, it’s a consultation paper.





Thanks Fred 259, from one Fred to another, if the British House of Commons and the United States Congress say that everything's o.k., that's good enough for me mate. No worries then.


Cheers,
Fred S.

[Fred Steeves]

No I fed up really... this is just a piss take.... However I will agree if you post and tell dennis to go to his veggie garden. I wonder what he actually grows....

I should have started reading this thread from page one rather than page three. Fred 259, are you purposely trying to discredit yourself with juvenile garbage like this?

[blufire]

Fred259 this is only going to turn into the other recent threads on chemtrails

As I stated in Icecolds recent thread, I used to not believe in chemtrail spraying either . . . I just couldn’t wrap my head around the “why would theys”

That was until I saw the physical evidence. While at my farm in Kansas there have been at least three times (?) in the past 4 years that I have seen a fine covering of “dust” or “vermiculite “ type debris covering my farm equipment and even the ponds when the water is still. These occurrences of “dusting” happened after a full blown chemtrail spray. I walk outside to do chores with a clear blue sky and the planes begin their patterns and within a matter of hours the sky is completely overcast and a couple more hours later the “dust’ is covering my equipment . . . enough that I can sweep a small amount together.

There were no weather patterns moving in . . . . as a farmer I watch the radars all the time. The overcast sky is from the chemtrails “melding” together . . . . you can actually watch it happen.

I am an avid outdoors woman and am acutely aware of nature and what is normal and what is out of the ordinary.

I still don’t know “the whys”. But I am taking action not only for this reality but also for all the other strange happenings around us that are undeniable.

I am very pragmatic and it used to be maddening when I could not bring things to a complete logical explanation. I have learned over the years to peel away the fluff and absurdities and the improvable. Until I have the “absolutes”.

Sometimes all we have is solid “circumstantial evidence” and this is what I personally have with chemtrails. I have observed the planes spraying, I have seen the “clouds” merging into a complete overcast and I have seen the debris or dust. I examined it and felt it between my fingers . . . . this “debris” is not normal.

I would like to say Fred259 that my female intuition is picking up fear with your almost desperate attempts to convince us that chemtrails do not exist.

[Gardener]

Apart from the fact they have admitted it (looking for details) about a year ago.

Fred yes it is my garden, (last year), this year is work in progress :) ty

[Fred259]

[QUOTE=blufire;211692][FONT="Arial"]Fred259
Hi Blufire, thanks so much for posting, I posted the image of the globe in Post 49 with you very much in mind.

As I stated in Icecolds recent thread, I used to not believe in chemtrail spraying either . . . I just couldn’t wrap my head around the “why would theys”
I agree why would they, see below..

That was until I saw the physical evidence. While at my farm in Kansas there have been at least three times (?) in the past 4 years that I have seen a fine covering of “dust” or “vermiculite “ type debris covering my farm equipment and even the ponds when the water is still.
Yes I agree with you. Three times at least in four years. I agree, this will only happen when you have intense high pressure 1050/60mb over the whole of America and pushing right up into Northern Canada.

There were no weather patterns moving in . . . . as a farmer I watch the radars all the time. The overcast sky is from the chemtrails “melding” together . . . . you can actually watch it happen.
Perhaps I didn’t explain myself plainly. We are talking about the dust or sand or vermiculite that you find on your equipment all around the farm.

I agree with you no weather patterns or fronts are moving in. We agree. I’m really talking or explaining climatology here. The weather fronts occur in the “tropopause” up to and around 18-20,000 feet.(3 miles) I’m sharing with you the “Hadley Cell”. I’m not talking warm or cold frontal activity rather when high pressure dominates over North America air is subsiding out of this cell up in the heavens 10 miles above the Midwest.

The cold air is subsiding from altitude down on the vast landmass of the Midwest and then diverging or spreading out at ground level pushing down south over New Mexico - all the way down towards Costa Rica thousands of miles from you - but warming as it moves over these lower latitudes - diverging and collecting dust sand and particles that are held in suspension in this air mass.

Over Central America the warm air now starts to rise (Ascent) taking with it the sand and particles. The pressure 10 miles high above America drops slightly (but its still high pressure) and because it drops slightly - the warm air now flows or converges towards overhead the Midwest cooling as it progresses. The cool air then subsides over the Midwest and drops the sand and particles on the machinery. The process is continual when high preassure dominates.


7177

If you study this NASA globe that red arrow is the air that’s subsiding over the Midwest, then follow with your figure the air at the surface diverging all the way south, then rising or Ascent up into the heavens, then converging at altitude and flowing back over the Midwest. Notice how they have the red for warming and blue for cooling.

Here is the scientific explanations from NASA and Wikipedia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hadley_cell

http://mynasadata.larc.nasa.gov/glossary.php?&word=Hadley%20Cell

It’s over a vast area. Remember I said we in Scotland get sand and dust from the Sahara desert by this method 2,500 mile away. Its the Siberian High pressure zone in the Russian winter is also so intense 1050/60mb that it spreads from the Pacific ocean west towards the Atlantic ocean over Ireland, and down over the whole of Asia as far south as Darwin Australia, it doesn’t quite touch Darwin but weather in that area is dominated by its presence. Its huge, its nature.


I have seen the “clouds” merging into a complete overcast and I have seen the debris or dust. I examined it and felt it between my fingers . . . . this “debris” is not normal.

I agree Blufire, the jet trails they will do this dissipating and spreading out blocking the blue sky. Rolls Royce in England who manufacture the engines are aware of this and the industry are working on a solution. Here is the report. http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2008/11/20/319138/contrails-could-be-dissipated-by-airborne-microwave-emitter-research.html


I would like to say Fred259 that my female intuition is picking up fear with your almost desperate attempts to convince us that chemtrails do not exist.
I’m not desperate, I'm trying to help you I replied to your post on the other thread, I sent a pm, you have my bio I'm just mad that people are being tricked and fooled. I was reading one of your other posts, and you were talking from your heart, and it made me angry that they do this to us. Maybe read up on the documents Blufire it’s all in the NASA link above. Look I have friend in Wisconsin retired NWA, ex Annapolis and North Dakota ANG he also has a cattle ranch, good christian if you want I can get him to contact you. Pm me if you want.

[Calz]

Okay ... we simply have to agree to disagree ... and I really do appreciate the tone you are making your views heard. That is what Avalon is about. :thumb:

I know what I have observed on a personal basis for many years.

Yes ... it is a holographic universerve and our level of consciousness can define what we "see" ... I understand this.

If I see a "Jesus" holograph in the skies with lotso ufos flying around I will laugh histerically ... crack open a beer ... pull out the lawnchair and enjoy the show.

:pop2:

I simply do not believe on a PERSONAL basis "chemtrails" can be so easily explained away.

You could be correct ... as always I am offering my own HUMBLE opinion :)

Carlz, this is really frightening I have been flying for 24 years as a co pilot and captain in Europe and Africa. These days I work for a leasing company selling hull leases doing delivery, testing etc and above all engine leases in EMEA and Russia.

Aircraft have no delivery or storage system for any of what is described here. Threads like switching on and off chemtrails, its laughable where is the switch, where is the circuit breaker, which pump, which electrical system…where are the manual diagrams its all 100% toffee…you have more chance of seeing the Loch Ness Monster, than a chemtrail over your city ! lol


Fred259 this is only going to turn into the other recent threads on chemtrails

As I stated in Icecolds recent thread, I used to not believe in chemtrail spraying either . . . I just couldn’t wrap my head around the “why would theys”

That was until I saw the physical evidence. While at my farm in Kansas there have been at least three times (?) in the past 4 years that I have seen a fine covering of “dust” or “vermiculite “ type debris covering my farm equipment and even the ponds when the water is still. These occurrences of “dusting” happened after a full blown chemtrail spray. I walk outside to do chores with a clear blue sky and the planes begin their patterns and within a matter of hours the sky is completely overcast and a couple more hours later the “dust’ is covering my equipment . . . enough that I can sweep a small amount together.

There were no weather patterns moving in . . . . as a farmer I watch the radars all the time. The overcast sky is from the chemtrails “melding” together . . . . you can actually watch it happen.

I am an avid outdoors woman and am acutely aware of nature and what is normal and what is out of the ordinary.

I still don’t know “the whys”. But I am taking action not only for this reality but also for all the other strange happenings around us that are undeniable.

I am very pragmatic and it used to be maddening when I could not bring things to a complete logical explanation. I have learned over the years to peel away the fluff and absurdities and the improvable. Until I have the “absolutes”.

Sometimes all we have is solid “circumstantial evidence” and this is what I personally have with chemtrails. I have observed the planes spraying, I have seen the “clouds” merging into a complete overcast and I have seen the debris or dust. I examined it and felt it between my fingers . . . . this “debris” is not normal.

I would like to say Fred259 that my female intuition is picking up fear with your almost desperate attempts to convince us that chemtrails do not exist.

Loth as I am to enter this nonsense again ... I shall.

Fred259 ... our resident expert on chemtrails ... after several respectful and friendly exchanges in Ice's thread could not accept that we "agree to disagree" and proceeded to attack on a personal level.

At which point I said I would waste no more energy with him.

blufire has jumped back into this thread so I will (loth as I am to "do battle") post once again because I respect her "boots on the ground" personal assessment as opposed to a robotic (likely) troll response.


When two people "agree to disagree" ... that isn't a bad thing. It happens (a lot).

When someone is polite and respectful in an exchange of divergent opinions quite often that is the end result.

Why someone can not walk away with a respectful difference of opinion one has to question the motives.


Perhaps ... someone could explore some ego examination.

More likely ... someone has agenda to be here (yes it happens).


I have witnessed on a personal basis and examined overwhelming evidence of the result of *CHEMTRAILS*.

I will yawn and no longer consider Fred259's posts otherwise ...

I am open minded regarding most everything but unless someone (else) can come up with some remarkable proof against chemtrails it is simply a no-brainer at this point.

respectfully and imho

[chancy]

Hello Fred: Probably got a good laugh at the videos I posted previously so I thought I would give you more evidence that spraying from jets is possible and is being done for different reasons. This particular firm has the biggest water bomber on the planet. It's a 747 which I have personally had the priviledge of touring and can say it's impressive!!
This jet was used in the gulf oil spill to spray the chemicals to help get rid of the oil. I know you don't believe BUT the case is, has and was already made that it's possible. I don't exactly know why there are chemtrails BUT do know they exists and can be sprayed easily.
Enjoy the website and photos. IF by chance you cannot see the sprayers in this website then just click on refresh.....
Regards,
Chancy

http://www.evergreenaviation.com/supertanker/gallery.html

PS Click on the photos of the nozzles (spraying apparatus under the aircraft)

You might even become a believer when you see this setup. It's the biggest in the world and very impressive. It will certainly make you laugh because it's documented proof. Enjoy.......

[blufire]

Ya know Fred259 you remind me of the “experts” that came out to my farm (from USDA, United States Department of Agriculture and NCRS Natural Resources Conservation Service) and told me which way my terraces in the cropland should run and where the best place my new barn should go and which way it should face.

When they left I went about my terrace and barn placement based on two years of observing carefully how the rain water drained from my fields and the way the wind moved through the land during the different seasons. Erosion is nicely controlled with two new ponds and even a “wet area” so I have a full eco-system. The new barn has a wonderful breeze during the summer coming through the alley way and is snug in the winter.

These experts were so full of boloney and I’m inclined to have the same opinion with your postings on this matter.

[9eagle9]

Fred someone who gets so wound up about an opposing theory has just reversed you into the same parking lot they accuse the opposing voice . Bound in an IDEA.

The point of alternative media is to inform people, and that means opposing voices are adding to that information.

People deal with this responisbly by saying "okay I'm aware of this. It may or not be true but I have it for future reference either way. "

Once you get all fired up about, jump on a bandwagon and MUST prove that your opposition is the 'way it is" you are as brainwashed as the people you accuse as opposing you.

Just because there's an idea chemtrails are stuck out there by the PTB is not reason for people to stop wondering about them. UNTIL we know it is just another divisionary tactic and you seem to have fallen right into that trap as much as anyone else.

And yes we have means of spraying chemicals in the air and have for 100 years.

Google: Cropduster.




into the
John what they want to do is turn you into a moron by feeding you all this rubbish.

You know don’t you that some real nasty bastards exist in this world. You only need to go down to London and visit the Tavistock Institute and see some of the dark practices that emanate from that organisation.

The next concept you must accept is that they are trying to dumb you down. Clearly this is not something that anyone would want. That being the case its best you treat most things you read and listen to on the web as highly suspect.

If you do this your mind and understanding will be free from those who seek to control you. To support this and the content of this thread I did this afternoon post up the HM Government Commons Select Committee report into Geo Engineering. It’s featured one above in post five.

The document clearly states that the committee is looking at all GeoEngineering options and that above all the public would be consulted and would have input into the outcome. It’s just a consultative document.

No decision has been made and probably given the length of time these things take will be in the order eight to ten years before any decision is made. That being the case its not really possible is it that they were GeoEngineering or chemtrailing over the NE of England today.

So what was the problem today. Look at the weather chart and you will see that high pressure dominates the whole of the UK and most of continental Europe at this time and this is the reason these jet trails are in the skies.

In your post you wonder if the weather will make a turn for the worst, No they will be gone by 22.00 tonight and you will see the stars all night. It will be the same tomorrow and perhaps for a week or so. When the high pressure system moves the atmosphere will change and you won’t see any trails just as it was last week.

John aircraft have no means whatsoever of spraying chemicals from the air, so please stop believing this.

I encourage you to look into this rather than believing everything you read on websites. If you choose not to sadly you are a victim of deception from the criminals in Tavistock Square.

[SEAM]

Clifford E Carnicom
Here is someone who has dedicated his life to the subject.

He has covered it all from every angle, including the laboratory.

Looking through his website I went through a couple drop down menus, and found this:

The basic form of the contrail dissipation model, based upon the
chemistry, mathematics and physics of thermodynamics is as follows:

time for dissipation = (mass of water crystal * (Q + heat of fusion))
/ power

where Q is the amount of heat required to increase the temperature of
a substance (ice).

or

t(sec) = (m (kg) * Ht(kj/kg)) / P(watts)

where t is the time required for contrail
dissipation(transformation), in seconds, m is the mass of the ice
crystal in kilograms, Ht is the heat of transformation of ice in
kilojoules per kilogram, and P is the power applied to the system in
watts.

Calculating the internal energy, or enthalpy, of water vapor often
involves several phase changes, as water varies between solid, liquid
and vapor under varying conditions of temperature and pressure. In
the case of a contrail composed of water vapor, the heat of
transformation will consist of two phases. The first is the amount
of heat required to raise the temperature of the ice crystal at a
sub-zero temperature to 0 deg. C., which will be designated as Q in
the present case. The second segment of heat required will be that
which melts the ice crystal to a liquid form. The primary processes
involved in contrail formation therefore appear to involve:

http://carnicom.com/

[Calz]

Clifford E Carnicom
Here is someone who has dedicated his life to the subject.

He has covered it all from every angle, including the laboratory.

Looking through his website I went through a couple drop down menus, and found this:

The basic form of the contrail dissipation model, based upon the
chemistry, mathematics and physics of thermodynamics is as follows:

time for dissipation = (mass of water crystal * (Q + heat of fusion))
/ power

where Q is the amount of heat required to increase the temperature of
a substance (ice).

or

t(sec) = (m (kg) * Ht(kj/kg)) / P(watts)

where t is the time required for contrail
dissipation(transformation), in seconds, m is the mass of the ice
crystal in kilograms, Ht is the heat of transformation of ice in
kilojoules per kilogram, and P is the power applied to the system in
watts.

Calculating the internal energy, or enthalpy, of water vapor often
involves several phase changes, as water varies between solid, liquid
and vapor under varying conditions of temperature and pressure. In
the case of a contrail composed of water vapor, the heat of
transformation will consist of two phases. The first is the amount
of heat required to raise the temperature of the ice crystal at a
sub-zero temperature to 0 deg. C., which will be designated as Q in
the present case. The second segment of heat required will be that
which melts the ice crystal to a liquid form. The primary processes
involved in contrail formation therefore appear to involve:

http://carnicom.com/

Okay ... thanks for that.

I hate to repeat from other threads ... but regarding CONTRAILS what has changed in the last few years?

What in the formula(s) you offer has changed from when "chemtrails" started to appear above most all of our skies?

I am not a scientist ... but I don't see anything in the formula(s) you present that had any reason to morph into something different since "chemtrails" started to appear.

Lastly ... what from said formula(s) explain the aluminum/barium/other residue that has appeared on the ground???

[SEAM]

This particular page is worthwhile reading for both sides of this debate:

CAUTIONS AGAINST PREMATURE CONCLUSIONS

http://carnicom.com/caution1.htm

¤=[Post Update]=¤



Clifford E Carnicom
Here is someone who has dedicated his life to the subject.

He has covered it all from every angle, including the laboratory.

Looking through his website I went through a couple drop down menus, and found this:

The basic form of the contrail dissipation model, based upon the
chemistry, mathematics and physics of thermodynamics is as follows:

time for dissipation = (mass of water crystal * (Q + heat of fusion))
/ power

where Q is the amount of heat required to increase the temperature of
a substance (ice).

or

t(sec) = (m (kg) * Ht(kj/kg)) / P(watts)

where t is the time required for contrail
dissipation(transformation), in seconds, m is the mass of the ice
crystal in kilograms, Ht is the heat of transformation of ice in
kilojoules per kilogram, and P is the power applied to the system in
watts.

Calculating the internal energy, or enthalpy, of water vapor often
involves several phase changes, as water varies between solid, liquid
and vapor under varying conditions of temperature and pressure. In
the case of a contrail composed of water vapor, the heat of
transformation will consist of two phases. The first is the amount
of heat required to raise the temperature of the ice crystal at a
sub-zero temperature to 0 deg. C., which will be designated as Q in
the present case. The second segment of heat required will be that
which melts the ice crystal to a liquid form. The primary processes
involved in contrail formation therefore appear to involve:

http://carnicom.com/

Okay ... thanks for that.

I hate to repeat from other threads ... but regarding CONTRAILS what has changed in the last few years?

What in the formula(s) you offer has changed from when "chemtrails" started to appear above most all of our skies?

I am not a scientist ... but I don't see anything in the formula(s) you present that had any reason to morph into something different since "chemtrails" started to appear.

Lastly ... what from said formula(s) explain the aluminum/barium/other residue that has appeared on the ground???

I'm trying to point you towrds the website, that's all.

[SEAM]

This is good.. I intend to look into this guy... he's being threatened, wire tapped, He's on to something.

.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=87DZXyCC2UY&feature=player_embedded#at=211

[Calz]

Thank you SEAM ... good vid from Alex :thumb:

[grannyfranny100]

Fred

What kind of credentials do you personally have? You sure are convinced by more government rubbish that excludes existing chemtrails, the photos and the technical analysis of the garbage that they are spraying from planes that you claim can not be done. How convenient. Personally I have heard that TPTB now have "trolls" writing on forums. Is the pay good?

Fran

[Amer]

the past 4 years that I have seen a fine covering of “dust” or “vermiculite “ type debris covering my farm equipment and even the ponds when the water is still.

Hello Blufire- have you ever had any testing done on this "dust". It might be interesting to see what the particles are made up of no ?

[Amer]

Fred

What kind of credentials do you personally have? You sure are convinced by more government rubbish that excludes existing chemtrails, the photos and the technical analysis of the garbage that they are spraying from planes that you claim can not be done. How convenient. Personally I have heard that TPTB now have "trolls" writing on forums. Is the pay good?

Fran



A tad nasty/ott perhaps Fran

[Fred259]

Ya know Fred259 you remind me of the “experts” that came out to my farm (from USDA, United States Department of Agriculture and NCRS Natural Resources Conservation Service) and told me which way my terraces in the cropland should run and where the best place my new barn should go and which way it should face.

When they left I went about my terrace and barn placement based on two years of observing carefully how the rain water drained from my fields and the way the wind moved through the land during the different seasons. Erosion is nicely controlled with two new ponds and even a “wet area” so I have a full eco-system. The new barn has a wonderful breeze during the summer coming through the alley way and is snug in the winter.

These experts were so full of boloney and I’m inclined to have the same opinion with your postings on this matter.

Hello Blufire, If I may say so I do think you are being a little disingenuous now. I am only trying to assist and share my experience with you and the forum.

I would urge that you perhaps read at another time the NASA document on the “Hadley Cell” and take professional opinion on the matter if you are not satisfied. I do think you will find that this is what you are experiencing and reporting.

In Post 21 I explained and provided scientific reference documents on the atmosphere and cloud formation for the benefit of the forum. Being a farmer cloud formation and rainfall of course is critical. I would suggest therefore if you apply your existing knowledge to the matter and in so doing this will allay your fears relating to these jet trails.

[3optic]

Everyone seems very attached to the Chemtrailing theory. So far Fred259 has provided the stronger argument. Waiting for someone with advanced rhetorical skills and documentation to offer rebuttal. For myself, I've had to yield and consider telling everyone I alerted about this phenomena that I was quite possibly wrong and perhaps we should go for a nice nature hike in the clean fresh air.

Oh wait.. forgot about Fukushima.

PS. 9eagle9 seems to be saying that Fred bears the burden of proof. I don't think this is so. If it is, he's done an admirable job of shouldering it.

[Fred259]

[QUOTE=SEAM;211865]Clifford E Carnicom
Here is someone who has dedicated his life to the subject.

He has covered it all from every angle, including the laboratory.

Looking through his website I went through a couple drop down menus, and found this:

The basic form of the contrail dissipation model, based upon the
chemistry, mathematics and physics of thermodynamics is as follows:

time for dissipation = (mass of water crystal * (Q + heat of fusion))
/ power

where Q is the amount of heat required to increase the temperature of
a substance (ice).

or

t(sec) = (m (kg) * Ht(kj/kg)) / P(watts)

where t is the time required for contrail
dissipation(transformation), in seconds, m is the mass of the ice
crystal in kilograms, Ht is the heat of transformation of ice in
kilojoules per kilogram, and P is the power applied to the system in
watts.

Calculating the internal energy, or enthalpy, of water vapor often
involves several phase changes, as water varies between solid, liquid
and vapor under varying conditions of temperature and pressure. In
the case of a contrail composed of water vapor, the heat of
transformation will consist of two phases. The first is the amount
of heat required to raise the temperature of the ice crystal at a
sub-zero temperature to 0 deg. C., which will be designated as Q in
the present case. The second segment of heat required will be that
which melts the ice crystal to a liquid form. The primary processes
involved in contrail formation therefore appear to involve:

http://carnicom.com/

Okay ... thanks for that.


I hate to repeat from other threads ... but regarding CONTRAILS what has changed in the last few years?

Hello Callz,

You post and ask about the formula provided by Seam in Post 63. It is of course central to the problem.

I agree, four changes have happened over the last ten to fifteen years.

1) Air travel has increased dramatically particularly so low fare airlines.
2) Changes in airways and navigation procedures, leading to reduced lateral separation,
3) Three and four engine aircraft are being replaced with two engined aircraft or “twins” however the power output has doubled. Changes in engine design essentially.
4) Mass mis/ dis information available by the internet. IMHO


What in the formula(s) you offer has changed from when "chemtrails" started to appear above most all of our skies?

t(sec) = (m (kg) * Ht(kj/kg)) / P(watts)

where t is the time required for contrail
dissipation(transformation), in seconds, m is the mass of the ice
crystal in kilograms, Ht is the heat of transformation of ice in
kilojoules per kilogram, and P is the power applied to the system in
watts.

The bold section above is “what has changed” to answer your question, and I would suggest this has been caused by effectively the doubling of engine power output, which means the mass of the ice crystals in kilograms will also double, leading to bigger trails requiring a greater amount of kilojoules/kg to disperse these trails.

A single aircraft flying between points A and B would have minimum effect in increasing cloud cover. However many members in the US talk about criss crosses in the skies and lines of jet trails.

Therefore larger trails caused by larger power output, and reduced separation over parts of North America and parts of Europe would in turn cause the time taken (duration) for total cloud cover to occur to be decreased.

IMHO.



I am not a scientist ... but I don't see anything in the formula(s) you present that had any reason to morph into something different since "chemtrails" started to appear.

I would agree.


Lastly ... what from said formula(s) explain the aluminum/barium/other residue that has appeared on the ground???

Dont know.

[noprophet]

Yes…. You can’t really compare the two…imagine a sealed tank on the ground for chemicals, then you take it to 30,000 ft what happens to the tank? Expand or contract? Take it back down to earth expand or contract? These things can be resolved but huge engineering issues need to be overcome.

Oh you mean like this?
http://wandervogeldiary.files.wordpress.com/2010/02/inside20chemtrail20plane1500w1.jpg

[Some Bloke]

If any ones interested, try this http://forum.prisonplanet.com/index.php?topic=185886.0
or this, http://www.geoengineeringwatch.org/

[Fred259]

Fred someone who gets so wound up about an opposing theory has just reversed you into the same parking lot they accuse the opposing voice . Bound in an IDEA.

Lol, I’m not wound up 9eagle9 I would argue focused. Next week I have to work and so I probably will be wound up then.


The point of alternative media is to inform people, and that means opposing voices are adding to that information.

Mmmmm This is a very clever statement, it will have a different meaning with different people. I must remember this one for the future lol.


People deal with this responisbly by saying "okay I'm aware of this. It may or not be true but I have it for future reference either way. "

Agreed.


Once you get all fired up about, jump on a bandwagon and MUST prove that your opposition is the 'way it is" you are as brainwashed as the people you accuse as opposing you.

No I disagree. It’s black or white. I would argue that those who seek to control and ultimately destroy us are not as powerful as we may think. Yes they are powerful, immensely so, we should respect that but it’s my view and the view of others that some of this may be an illusion.

They hate being caught out. Cockroaches like the dark, don’t they.

This morning I was private messaging with Ilie. We were discussing the Inelia Bill Q&A Video. Bill suggested around 15 minutes in that many of the apocalyptic life threatening events that he and Kerry had been made aware of have not happened. Ilie suggested this was because of the exposure tptb had received. When our man in Romania says that and our man in Anchorage says that, Sydney Montréal and Madrid the black & white picture starts turning to colour. They are not as strong as they would like us to think.


Just because there's an idea chemtrails are stuck out there by the PTB is not reason for people to stop wondering about them.
Sure I agree.


UNTIL we know it is just another divisionary tactic and you seem to have fallen right into that trap as much as anyone else.

I and my colleagues know it’s a divisionary tactic; they are using this to project power where no such power should exist. Sometimes it’s hard to swim against the flow, but sometimes it’s equally necessary.


And yes we have means of spraying chemicals in the air and have for 100 years.

[QUOTE]Google: Cropduster.
Indeed they have..

[Fred259]

Yes…. You can’t really compare the two…imagine a sealed tank on the ground for chemicals, then you take it to 30,000 ft what happens to the tank? Expand or contract? Take it back down to earth expand or contract? These things can be resolved but huge engineering issues need to be overcome.

Oh you mean like this?
http://wandervogeldiary.files.wordpress.com/2010/02/inside20chemtrail20plane1500w1.jpg

Hi noprophet,

This cabin will be pressurized to around 8,000ft at 30,000ft altitude. Only very small amount of water will be transferred fore and aft at a time. The pumps will be industrial specification low volume. I don’t know the tank pressure…

NB Noprophet, In the original post Dennis the mod was talking about tanks on cropsprayers, and this was the context of the post.Yes external tanks could be added quite where Im not sure, I think if this was happening everyone would know about it and above all the tank reservoir and associated equipment would have to be certified by the FAA. Certification documentation would be available. I wonder who supplies all this equipment, where do we get spare parts for example…

[bennycog]

I have a few pics of chemtrails from today out in te central west of oz but i am having trouble trying to get them on here.. i go into manage attachments but tey wont upload. i have good internet speed and the files are around 1 mb. am i doing anything wrong? or is there another way?

[noprophet]

Supposed plane mechanic testimony (http://www.anomalies-unlimited.com/Chemtrails/Witness_1.html)

It was submitted anonymously, no verifiability - interesting none the less.

[taurad]

hi all...

weird thing today

i was @ work reading THIS thread, from my ipod touch...finished my break, went back, only 3 min later smn tells me to step-up out side to look @ the sky...

@ that point i'm still digesting the debate...this is what i saw and recorded:


<object width= "425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/Dx9oXIP1wL8&ap=%2526fmt%3D18&autoplay=1&rel=0&fs=1&color1=0x3a3a3a&color2=0x999999&border=0&loop=0"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/Dx9oXIP1wL8&ap=%2526fmt%3D18&autoplay=1&rel=0&fs=1&color1=0x3a3a3a&color2=0x999999&border=0&loop=0" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

and 15 minutes later this one:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7nplIBW4oL8

these were 5 planes side-by-side...CLARITIN commercials...big pharma showing-off in the sky...

if these groups have the right to paint the sky, at full will, without ppl's consent, imagine what

happens behind close doors, black-ops etc...


to skeptics here: there's ppl in rural areas, no traffic pollution, subject only to air-trail

pollution, that have collected rain water, right after the trail-cloud formation

precipitation...they've send it to local labs, got it tested, and it was unacceptably high in heavy

metals, most commonly aluminum and barium...

also, because our friends the pilots here, never flew such one, automatically means they know every god-damn air-op in the world...please, i respect you, but do not even dare...have you seen what's happening to the fricking world elites @ the moment...presidents surrounded by tens of secret services, each one competing with the other for budget...hence, lying and misinforming their employers, and @ the end of the day, they don't even now the truth, because of the whole messy protocols they been using...

bottom line

call it whatever the **** you want...i want it STOPPED right now...

cheers

[bennycog]

on the last one all i caught was "live claritin clear".. not sure what the 4th word was..

http://www.claritin.ca/
http://www.claritin.com/claritin/en/kids/index.jspa

[Calz]

The point being is we keep seeing the same debate over and over moving from one chemtrail thread to the next.

I posted several times in Ice's thread:


http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?18882-The-Real-Story-about-Trails-in-the-Sky.&highlight=chemtrails


After a point it is just like banging your head against the wall :frusty:

Hence the offer to "agree to disagree".

After that it is time to walk away :bolt:

[Calz]

With all due respect Fred ... here is a near duplicate exchange we had in the Ice thread - post #40 (apologies to others but making a point of rehashing same stuff from one thread to the next):




I agree, four changes have happened over the last ten to fifteen years.

1) Air travel has increased dramatically particularly so low fare airlines.
2) Changes in airways and navigation procedures, leading to reduced lateral separation,
3) Three and four engine aircraft are being replaced with two engined aircraft or “twins” however the power output has doubled. Changes in engine design essentially.
4) Mass misinformation / deception on the internet.

Fair enough.

1) If it were a matter of degree then I would agree. If traffic doubled then the phenomenon would roughly double. I remember ZERO for much of my life.

2) I am not sure to what you refer ... so I have to pass on this one.

3) See number one.

4) Yep ... also a WHOLE LOTTA TRUTH compared to elite bought and paid for MSM ... yes?


From my later post ... what about the residue and checkboard patterns when it is observed on a regular basis the planes turning around to cover an area???

Ice crystals alchemically transformed into aluminum, barium and others?

and the current thread:





I hate to repeat from other threads ... but regarding CONTRAILS what has changed in the last few years?

Hello Callz,

You post and ask about the formula provided by Seam in Post 63. It is of course central to the problem.

I agree, four changes have happened over the last ten to fifteen years.

1) Air travel has increased dramatically particularly so low fare airlines.
2) Changes in airways and navigation procedures, leading to reduced lateral separation,
3) Three and four engine aircraft are being replaced with two engined aircraft or “twins” however the power output has doubled. Changes in engine design essentially.
4) Mass mis/ dis information available by the internet. IMHO


What in the formula(s) you offer has changed from when "chemtrails" started to appear above most all of our skies?

t(sec) = (m (kg) * Ht(kj/kg)) / P(watts)

where t is the time required for contrail
dissipation(transformation), in seconds, m is the mass of the ice
crystal in kilograms, Ht is the heat of transformation of ice in
kilojoules per kilogram, and P is the power applied to the system in
watts.

The bold section above is “what has changed” to answer your question, and I would suggest this has been caused by effectively the doubling of engine power output, which means the mass of the ice crystals in kilograms will also double, leading to bigger trails requiring a greater amount of kilojoules/kg to disperse these trails.

A single aircraft flying between points A and B would have minimum effect in increasing cloud cover. However many members in the US talk about criss crosses in the skies and lines of jet trails.

Therefore larger trails caused by larger power output, and reduced separation over parts of North America and parts of Europe would in turn cause the time taken (duration) for total cloud cover to occur to be decreased.

IMHO.



I am not a scientist ... but I don't see anything in the formula(s) you present that had any reason to morph into something different since "chemtrails" started to appear.

I would agree.


Lastly ... what from said formula(s) explain the aluminum/barium/other residue that has appeared on the ground???

Dont know.


Anyway, going through other posts in that thread you will remember a few posts about planes "turning on and off" chemtrails as I have witnessed many many times over the last few years as well being photograghed extensively.

Logic would suggest that would not be explained in the mass of the ice crystals.

Planes are often witnessed circling back over an area to make checkerboard patterns (no not circling an airport waiting to land).

Lastly ... as you know there are infinite tests and studies done on the residue that falls to the ground. I failed alchemy 101 but doesn't seem likely ice crystals turn to aluminum/barium and all the others.

These are some of the things that simply don't add up (from a non scientific observational vantage point).

IMHO

[noprophet]

Anyway, going through other posts in that thread you will remember a few posts about planes "turning on and off" chemtrails as I have witnessed many many times over the last few years as well being photograghed extensively.

I actually pointed out a chemtrail once to my dad and he was unsure about it and as we were watching the plane fly over they flipped it off. He wasn't so unsure about it after that.

[Calz]

the past 4 years that I have seen a fine covering of “dust” or “vermiculite “ type debris covering my farm equipment and even the ponds when the water is still.

Hello Blufire- have you ever had any testing done on this "dust". It might be interesting to see what the particles are made up of no ?

Post # 46 (clipped to include related text) from Ice's thread:

blufire:


OH side note: (geez can’t believe I forgot this) . . . . . I did send some of the residue to my county agent for an analysis a couple years ago and it “was lost”. I was going to send another sample when one of my more ***conspiratorial the government will come to get you*** friends strongly suggested I just lay low.

But somehow I have a feeling even this wouldn’t be enough . . . . . .

http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?18882-The-Real-Story-about-Trails-in-the-Sky./page3&highlight=chemtrails

[Calz]

This is a photo of stuff falling out of the sky following two weeks of 'trailing just prior to the harvest,

7155
Hadley Cell showing the subsiding air, surface divergence, ascending air and upper level converging air.

The post from Some Bloke is the most important on the thread IMHO.

He reports that stuff has been falling from the skies following two weeks of jet trails just prior to harvest. He lives in England lets say in the middle of the UK. A member in Kansas also reported sand on farm machinery, thinking this had come from aircraft.

It’s important because this is how the sand and particles arrive and it needs to be considered that problems exist in Japan. Bill has also mentioned issues with China and possible disease born warfare. This is how disease in cattle for example crosses borders, swine flu and much more.

In a Low pressure system warm air rises. In a HP system cold air subsides.

When HP dominates cold air now flows from the HP over the Midwest towards the LP at ground level. The air is cold and so subsides.

On reaching the ground HP starts to build up from this incoming air at the surface and the air is forced west as far as California Mexico and east as far as N Carolina.

As the air travels close to the ground it’s warmed, but it also collects particles dust sand harvest chaff even flies etc.

Low pressure now exists at altitude and so the warm air rise along with all the sand etc and flows towards the centre of the LP over the Midwest. The incoming air now dominates and HP starts building up again at altitude over the Midwest.

Eventually the air circulation is complete with the cold air at altitude subsiding over the Midwest and in so doing dumping sand etc on the farmyard machinery.

The process then starts again so what we are talking about is ;

HP Cold air descending over the Midwest.
Surface level divergence and warming
Ascent with the warm air rising vertically
Upper level convergence towards the LP centre.


This movement of air over vast continents was discovered by Hadley and thus it’s called the Hadley Cell.

The Kansas farmer reports’ sands on the Farm. These sand will have been collected in desert areas and held in suspension in the atmosphere prior to be deposited by subsiding cold air througout the Midwest.. Some Bloke reports stuff falling two weeks ahead of harvest. Likewise the circular flow of air has collected sand dust and harvest chaff perhaps from France and deposited these throughout much of northern Europe.

The circular flow is illustrated on the picture.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hadley_cell


http://mynasadata.larc.nasa.gov/glossary.php?&word=Hadley%20Cell

Alright.

This is natural phenomenon which has been going on for ... forever?

"Stuff" falling from the sky.

I guess that means somewhere in the world there are "sandunes made up of aluminum and barium (and others)"???

This gets scooped up and dumped all around the world.

Hmmmmmmmmmmm

:pop2:

please continue ...

[Calz]

This is the document produced by the United Kingdom Government all party parliamentary select group on GeoEngineering or chemtrails.First I should explain what that is for those not in the UK.

Essentially it’s a group of MPs from all political groups, so a mix of Conservatives Labour, Liberals, Scots nationalist, Welsh etc who have been nominated to look into GeoEngineering and publish a consultation paper. This is ongoing, it’s a consultation paper.





Thanks Fred 259, from one Fred to another, if the British House of Commons and the United States Congress say that everything's o.k., that's good enough for me mate. No worries then.


Cheers,
Fred S.

Lol

Nuthin to see here folks ... please move along ...

[Calz]

Everyone seems very attached to the Chemtrailing theory. So far Fred259 has provided the stronger argument. Waiting for someone with advanced rhetorical skills and documentation to offer rebuttal. For myself, I've had to yield and consider telling everyone I alerted about this phenomena that I was quite possibly wrong and perhaps we should go for a nice nature hike in the clean fresh air.

Oh wait.. forgot about Fukushima.

PS. 9eagle9 seems to be saying that Fred bears the burden of proof. I don't think this is so. If it is, he's done an admirable job of shouldering it.

Everyone is entitled to their (respectful) opinion ... that is why we have gathered here. :)

I suggest you go through Ice's thread.

Lots of interesting documention on both sides:


http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?18882-The-Real-Story-about-Trails-in-the-Sky.&highlight=chemtrails

[Calz]

Hello Blufire, If I may say so I do think you are being a little disingenuous now.



Disingenuous:


–adjective lacking in frankness, candor, or sincerity; falsely or hypocritically ingenuous ; insincere:

Nope ... don't see it ...

Next?

[Fred259]

With all due respect Fred ... here is a near duplicate exchange we had in the Ice thread - post #40 (apologies to others but making a point of rehashing same stuff from one thread to the next):


[QUOTE=Fred259;202670]
I agree, four changes have happened over the last ten to fifteen years.

1) Air travel has increased dramatically particularly so low fare airlines.
2) Changes in airways and navigation procedures, leading to reduced lateral separation,
3) Three and four engine aircraft are being replaced with two engined aircraft or “twins” however the power output has doubled. Changes in engine design essentially.
4) Mass misinformation / deception on the internet.

Fair enough.

1) If it were a matter of degree then I would agree. If traffic doubled then the phenomenon would roughly double. I remember ZERO for much of my life.

2) I am not sure to what you refer ... so I have to pass on this one.

3) See number one.

4) Yep ... also a WHOLE LOTTA TRUTH compared to elite bought and paid for MSM ... yes?


From my later post ... what about the residue and checkboard patterns when it is observed on a regular basis the planes turning around to cover an area???

Ice crystals alchemically transformed into aluminum, barium and others?

and the current thread:





I hate to repeat from other threads ... but regarding CONTRAILS what has changed in the last few years?

Hello Callz,

You post and ask about the formula provided by Seam in Post 63. It is of course central to the problem.

I agree, four changes have happened over the last ten to fifteen years.

1) Air travel has increased dramatically particularly so low fare airlines.
2) Changes in airways and navigation procedures, leading to reduced lateral separation,
3) Three and four engine aircraft are being replaced with two engined aircraft or “twins” however the power output has doubled. Changes in engine design essentially.
4) Mass mis/ dis information available by the internet. IMHO


What in the formula(s) you offer has changed from when "chemtrails" started to appear above most all of our skies?

t(sec) = (m (kg) * Ht(kj/kg)) / P(watts)

where t is the time required for contrail
dissipation(transformation), in seconds, m is the mass of the ice
crystal in kilograms, Ht is the heat of transformation of ice in
kilojoules per kilogram, and P is the power applied to the system in
watts.

The bold section above is “what has changed” to answer your question, and I would suggest this has been caused by effectively the doubling of engine power output, which means the mass of the ice crystals in kilograms will also double, leading to bigger trails requiring a greater amount of kilojoules/kg to disperse these trails.

A single aircraft flying between points A and B would have minimum effect in increasing cloud cover. However many members in the US talk about criss crosses in the skies and lines of jet trails.

Therefore larger trails caused by larger power output, and reduced separation over parts of North America and parts of Europe would in turn cause the time taken (duration) for total cloud cover to occur to be decreased.

IMHO.



I am not a scientist ... but I don't see anything in the formula(s) you present that had any reason to morph into something different since "chemtrails" started to appear.

I would agree.


Lastly ... what from said formula(s) explain the aluminum/barium/other residue that has appeared on the ground???

Dont know.



Anyway, going through other posts in that thread you will remember a few posts about planes "turning on and off" chemtrails as I have witnessed many many times over the last few years as well being photograghed extensively.

Logic would suggest that would not be explained in the mass of the ice crystals.

Calz,

Last week you asked what had changed over the last twenty years and I posted a reply. This week you ask the same question and the reply is the same. It doesn’t change by the week. Did you expect a different answer?


You asked this question last week and so it’s the same answer.

The “turning on and off” is due to changes in the atmosphere.
Even just for a few seconds or just that little ever so small part of the airmass.


Planes are often witnessed circling back over an area to make checkerboard patterns (no not circling an airport waiting to land).

Do you have any examples pictures, even just example pictures, lets discuss, checkerboard patterns sound like crossing airways to me.

Calz, what is happening is that we are being lied to each and very hour of every day. We all know that. Obama birth certificate, Osama death certificate, its never ending. It’s the same with this. Now I happen to know from my professional experience that this is all BS. Most people actually know about latent heat and how clouds are formed etc, they did this in school, its just it needs to be applied to this concept. I don’t know about DNA or farming, computing astrophysics or how to bake bread.

I learn from others on the forum and this is my small and thoroughly unpopular contribution to the forum! None of this is happening, the ptb are using the lack of general understanding on this subject and perhaps many more to scare the human population. It’s psy ops and brainwashing. The web is full of it mostly on trash truth sites, you know the ones I mean, but I was a bit surprised seeing this on Avalon. We’re supposed to be a bit above all that, and so Im trying on this closed forum to expose this.

In post #21 I introduced this concept of the “living atmosphere” to try and build a picture in peoples minds that the heavens are like a coral reef, and that all these changes have a direct effect our lives. Without cloud we have no rain and without rain we have no food.

This is what is explained in #21, with scientific documentation. I urge you to read it understand how clouds are formed and in so doing you will also understand how contrails are formed. It will all become clearer. They gave you peak oil swine flu and all the other rubbish. The public swallowed it all till someone said Stop. That what I’m doing here on Avalon. The ptb have control of our mind's, remember what Charles told Bill “they are drinking scotch smoking cigar’s and laughing at us”


Lastly ... as you know there are infinite tests and studies done on the residue that falls to the ground. I failed alchemy 101 but doesn't seem likely ice crystals turn to aluminum/barium and all the others.

These are some of the things that simply don't add up (from a non scientific observational vantage point).

I’m not talking here about crop spraying, or cloud seeding or the military using chaff dispensers, clearly this is happening all over the world.

I’ve no idea how these chemical compounds are found. In #58 I suggested that the Hadley Cell situated 10 miles above the US was responsible for sand and dust deposits. Many found that highly amusing, so when the cattle in North Dakota turn up with the same disease as the beast’s in Central America or when possible radiation in Japan ends up in Florida you might just wonder how that happens.

Aluminum and Barium is reported where? Do we have any records of this, and I really mean statistics, how many reports, frequency of report, 58,000 flights take place in North America each day so it can’t be that hard to find on the basis of what believed on this forum. Is that unreasonable?

To my knowledge none of this has been found in Europe, I don’t know about Australia.

Why don’t we divide America into the time zones and see how many reports per zone. It would be a worthwhile exercise.

[Calz]

Calz,

Last week you asked what had changed over the last twenty years and I posted a reply. This week you ask the same question and the reply is the same. It doesn’t change by the week. Did you expect a different answer?



Nope. However I did respond to 3 of the 4 and you did not respond in turn (unless I missed it somewhere).

#2 I passed on because I had no idea what you were talking about.

#4 regarding the internet is too vague to respond to.

#1 and #3 were a measure of degree (in my logical application) not a matter for the phenomenon to suddenly appear.

If you can elaborate then please do. I would not have the expertise to confirm or disagree ... perhaps someone else here could.


The “turning on and off” is due to changes in the atmosphere.
Even just for a few seconds or just that little ever so small part of the airmass.

So all the times I have seen (for several years now) chemtrails starting when a plane starts crossing over my city then stopping afterwards is due to the atmosphere?

Hmmmm


Do you have any examples pictures, even just example pictures, lets discuss, checkerboard patterns sound like crossing airways to me.

There are many many examples of this in posted photos and videos. If you have not seen that type of phenomenon then you are either not paying attention or else not being honest.


Calz, what is happening is that we are being lied to each and very hour of every day. We all know that. Obama birth certificate, Osama death certificate, its never ending. It’s the same with this. Now I happen to know from my professional experience that this is all BS.

On this we are in complete agreement. I give you the Art Bell *ding ding ding*



The ptb have control of our mind's, remember what Charles told Bill “they are drinking scotch smoking cigar’s and laughing at us”

another *ding ding ding* ... Charles was not necessary for that.



Aluminum and Barium is reported where? Do we have any records of this, and I really mean statistics, how many reports, frequency of report, 58,000 flights take place in North America each day so it can’t be that hard to find on the basis of what believed on this forum. Is that unreasonable?

58,000 flights don't dump chemtrials ... is that unreasonable???

Are you denying the existance of Aluminum and Barium???

You were all over the Ice thread on chemtrails ... are you suggesting the many links there regarding the metallic deposits are wrong???

Hmmmmm

[9eagle9]

So based on what I've read and what we already know to be true.

Let's put a little intuitive speculation into play. Using our logical intuition and what we already know.

Flouride in the water is a by product of aluminum smelting. Aluminum acts a brain/memory/intelligence depressor. Which is why we find its bi product in our drinking water. Aluminum in the sky is not a naturally occurring state, someone has imposed artificial conditions to put it there. Either through design or accident.

Where does our drinking water come from. It falls from the sky. Cloud condensation.The same place where ALUMINUM is being dumped either by design or accident. In the sky where clouds are. Which through condensation and evaporation eventually result in our ground water (drinking supply)

So while we can contaminate our municipal drinking supplies directly with aluminum byproduct its a bit harder to contaminate individual wells and independent sources of water. So we may take another means to make sure everyone is given an equal dose We may not share the same water supply but we all share the same sky and ultimately the sky is where ALL water comes from through the process of evaporation and condensation.

[Calz]

So based on what I've read and what we already know to be true.

Let's put a little intuitive speculation into play. Using our logical intuition and what we already know.

Flouride in the water is a by product of aluminum smelting. Aluminum acts a brain/memory/intelligence depressor. Which is why we find its bi product in our drinking water. Aluminum in the sky is not a naturally occurring state, someone has imposed artificial conditions to put it there. Either through design or accident.

Where does our drinking water come from. It falls from the sky. Cloud condensation.The same place where ALUMINUM is being dumped either by design or accident. In the sky where clouds are. Which through condensation and evaporation eventually result in our ground water (drinking supply)

So while we can contaminate our municipal drinking supplies directly with aluminum byproduct its a bit harder to contaminate individual wells and independent sources of water. So we may take another means to make sure everyone is given an equal dose We may not share the same water supply but we all share the same sky and ultimately the sky is where ALL water comes from through the process of evaporation and condensation.

Flouride is added by many cities ... no controversy there.

Aluminum falling into our water supply does not help matters.

[Fred259]

So based on what I've read and what we already know to be true.

Let's put a little intuitive speculation into play. Using our logical intuition and what we already know.

Flouride in the water is a by product of aluminum smelting. Aluminum acts a brain/memory/intelligence depressor. Which is why we find its bi product in our drinking water. Aluminum in the sky is not a naturally occurring state, someone has imposed artificial conditions to put it there. Either through design or accident.

Where does our drinking water come from. It falls from the sky. Cloud condensation.The same place where ALUMINUM is being dumped either by design or accident. In the sky where clouds are. Which through condensation and evaporation eventually result in our ground water (drinking supply)

So while we can contaminate our municipal drinking supplies directly with aluminum byproduct its a bit harder to contaminate individual wells and independent sources of water. So we may take another means to make sure everyone is given an equal dose We may not share the same water supply but we all share the same sky and ultimately the sky is where ALL water comes from through the process of evaporation and condensation.

Spot on…. Scientifically…

Now we need proof that aluminium is being deposited into the atmosphere.

[taurad]

So based on what I've read and what we already know to be true.

Let's put a little intuitive speculation into play. Using our logical intuition and what we already know.

Flouride in the water is a by product of aluminum smelting. Aluminum acts a brain/memory/intelligence depressor. Which is why we find its bi product in our drinking water. Aluminum in the sky is not a naturally occurring state, someone has imposed artificial conditions to put it there. Either through design or accident.

Where does our drinking water come from. It falls from the sky. Cloud condensation.The same place where ALUMINUM is being dumped either by design or accident. In the sky where clouds are. Which through condensation and evaporation eventually result in our ground water (drinking supply)

So while we can contaminate our municipal drinking supplies directly with aluminum byproduct its a bit harder to contaminate individual wells and independent sources of water. So we may take another means to make sure everyone is given an equal dose We may not share the same water supply but we all share the same sky and ultimately the sky is where ALL water comes from through the process of evaporation and condensation.

Spot on…. Scientifically…

Now we neecomd proof that aluminium is being deposited into the atmosphere.

well, I don't know about "spot on, Scientifically"!
It's one of many crazy hypothesis...if you look closely @ spring water, it
has very little Floride...most of the Floride comes from the evil
geniuses in the medical/pharma and the food industry as a
supplementary poison...

Fred259, what I notice with you is you not having a problem
with a far-fetched hypothesis like this, with no empirical data
backing it, but have a problem with another hypothesis, the
Chemtrail one, which is much closely observed and possible to
roll, considering the vast arsenal, finances and motivation of the
ugenic masterminds

Cheers

[9eagle9]

The very virtue that we have hot jet engines made of aluminum flying all over the sky, for whatever reason nefarious or not, is enough to tell us that Aluminum and its by product is being discharged into the air. There is no question that aluminum is in the air. If a hot aluminum jet engine is in the sky is is most certainly discharging aluminum particles into the sky the same way that aluminum cook ware deposits aluminum particles into your food when you cook with it.



So based on what I've read and what we already know to be true.

Let's put a little intuitive speculation into play. Using our logical intuition and what we already know.

Flouride in the water is a by product of aluminum smelting. Aluminum acts a brain/memory/intelligence depressor. Which is why we find its bi product in our drinking water. Aluminum in the sky is not a naturally occurring state, someone has imposed artificial conditions to put it there. Either through design or accident.

Where does our drinking water come from. It falls from the sky. Cloud condensation.The same place where ALUMINUM is being dumped either by design or accident. In the sky where clouds are. Which through condensation and evaporation eventually result in our ground water (drinking supply)

So while we can contaminate our municipal drinking supplies directly with aluminum byproduct its a bit harder to contaminate individual wells and independent sources of water. So we may take another means to make sure everyone is given an equal dose We may not share the same water supply but we all share the same sky and ultimately the sky is where ALL water comes from through the process of evaporation and condensation.

Spot on…. Scientifically…

Now we need proof that aluminium is being deposited into the atmosphere.

[Fred259]

[QUOTE=Fred259;212370]

Calz,

Last week you asked what had changed over the last twenty years and I posted a reply. This week you ask the same question and the reply is the same. It doesn’t change by the week. Did you expect a different answer?




Nope. However I did respond to 3 of the 4 and you did not respond in turn (unless I missed it somewhere).

#2 I passed on because I had no idea what you were talking about.

#4 regarding the internet is too vague to respond to.

#1 and #3 were a measure of degree (in my logical application) not a matter for the phenomenon to suddenly appear.

If you can elaborate then please do. I would not have the expertise to confirm or disagree ... perhaps someone else here could.


OK we agree on

1) More passenger so more flights
2) Reduced lateral separation. ie (With modern technology the safety distance between aircraft has been reduced allowing more aircraft into the airspace or airways. Safety is maintained with modern technology) This was done to cope with the increased traffic.
3) Larger Engines. Larger trails. (In the early 1970s* B747 carried 400 passengers with four 40,000lb trust engines. Today the B777 carries 400 passengers with two 115,000lb trust engines.)

• How many times have you read posts where they said “ I remember in the 1970 1980 blue skies. Indeed I agree I remember them as well.



The “turning on and off” is due to changes in the atmosphere.
Even just for a few seconds or just that little ever so small part of the airmass.


So all the times I have seen (for several years now) chemtrails starting when a plane starts crossing over my city then stopping afterwards is due to the atmosphere?

Hmmmm


You bet...

Yes. It’s a living atmosphere a highly complex eco-system. It must be a big city or a hot city…

Inbound solar energy from the sun heats the surface, and this energy is absorbed by the surface. The heat is then radiated out into the atmosphere by convection. Large metropolitan cities will absorb more inbound radiation when compared with a ploughed field.

Heating of the atmosphere

Large Cities Very Good
Open Farmland Good
Ploughed Field Average
Sea & Water Poor


Inbound Earth Heat Gains
short-wave radiation from the sun...............34.7%
a) long-wave radiation from the atmosphere.........65.3%

Outbound Earth Heat Losses
b)Long-wave radiation to the atmosphere...........75.5%
Long-wave radiation to space.................... 4.1%
Evaporation from oceans/lakes/land..............15.6%
Convection and conduction to atmosphere......... 4.8%


Example Mexico City “Urban Heat Island”

There is a marked difference in temperature between the city core and adjacent rural areas. This temperature difference, which increases with city size, is usually referred to as the urban heat island .

In the larger cities over 10,000,000, the mean annual minimum temperature can be as much as 4 degrees F higher than that of the surrounding rural periphery. This difference is much greater in summer than in winter.
The causes for the urban heat island are twofold:

Compared to rural surfaces, city surfaces absorb and store significantly more solar radiation. a)Specifically during the summer months, the buildings, pavement, and concrete of the city absorb and store solar radiation. b)The concreted city surfaces have both great thermal capacity and conductivity, so that heat is stored during the day and released at night. Because of the high water runoff in the city, less of this energy is used for evaporation.

In contrast, the countryside, the presence of evaporation and transpiration results in relatively lower temperatures during the day and night.
Manmade energy produced by industrial, commercial and domestic users.
The presence of pollutants over the city enhances the heat island effect. H2O, CO2, and other pollutants enhance the surface temperature through convection and radiation processes (atmospheric greenhouse effect*).

http://www.globalchange.umich.edu/globalchange2/current/lectures/urban/urban_indust.html



Do you have any examples pictures, even just example pictures, lets discuss, checkerboard patterns sound like crossing airways to me.


There are many many examples of this in posted photos and videos. If you have not seen that type of phenomenon then you are either not paying attention or else not being honest.


I just wondered if you had any pictures, we don’t call them checkerboards in the UK or tik tak toe, which I assume is the same thing.

We talked about reduced lateral separation and this is what is causing the checkerboard skies. Essentially aircraft are offsetting 1, 2 5 miles of a known track, with the track on your left. Aircraft in the opposite direction also fly with the track on the left, this is what produces the checkerboard skies…

This is offsetting aircraft computers are handshaking and maintaining separation by a system called TCAS.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traffic_collision_avoidance_system


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HBF31B5W_R8

They position the SLOP daily depending on the position of the polar Jetstream. Normally it’s between Scotland and Gander, but can equally end up at Bangor Maine or even further south ie north of Boston.

If they position it over Bangor for example 2,000 aircraft will fly over the city. If the relative humidity is 100% massive contrails will form, and the folks hit the forums with comments like wtf omg Bush is poisoning us. The next day another 2,000 go over and you never hear from them. Why? Because the relative humidity is 80% and no trails will form. So is it Monday Thursday and Sunday plus public holidays and the third Sunday of each month for poisoning and every other day of the month are free. Does this sound normal to you?


Aluminum and Barium is reported where? Do we have any records of this, and I really mean statistics, how many reports, frequency of report, 58,000 flights take place in North America each day so it can’t be that hard to find on the basis of what believed on this forum. Is that unreasonable?


58,000 flights don't dump chemtrials ... is that unreasonable???

I’m saying if in US / Canada they go through 58,000 flights per day we should have more reported sightings of barium.


Are you denying the existance of Aluminum and Barium???

You were all over the Ice thread on chemtrails ... are you suggesting the many links there regarding the metallic deposits are wrong???

The answer is I don’t know. We have reports of aluminum and Barium but how extensive is it? In any one hour over the US in daytime 5,000 flights are in the air so I would have thought this would be a very major problem.

What are the county and city governments doing about this? Do they know? In the UK we have the Environmental protection agency a government department that measure air quality etc. I cant see them allowing this to happen, especially when you get an on the spot fine in the UK for flicking cigarette ash out the car window! Im serious police state UK style.

We don’t seem to have these reports in Europe. What about Aus?

[Fred259]

So based on what I've read and what we already know to be true.

Let's put a little intuitive speculation into play. Using our logical intuition and what we already know.

Flouride in the water is a by product of aluminum smelting. Aluminum acts a brain/memory/intelligence depressor. Which is why we find its bi product in our drinking water. Aluminum in the sky is not a naturally occurring state, someone has imposed artificial conditions to put it there. Either through design or accident.

Where does our drinking water come from. It falls from the sky. Cloud condensation.The same place where ALUMINUM is being dumped either by design or accident. In the sky where clouds are. Which through condensation and evaporation eventually result in our ground water (drinking supply)

So while we can contaminate our municipal drinking supplies directly with aluminum byproduct its a bit harder to contaminate individual wells and independent sources of water. So we may take another means to make sure everyone is given an equal dose We may not share the same water supply but we all share the same sky and ultimately the sky is where ALL water comes from through the process of evaporation and condensation.

Spot on…. Scientifically…

Now we neecomd proof that aluminium is being deposited into the atmosphere.

well, I don't know about "spot on, Scientifically"!
It's one of many crazy hypothesis...if you look closely @ spring water, it
has very little Floride...most of the Floride comes from the evil
geniuses in the medical/pharma and the food industry as a
supplementary poison...

Fred259, what I notice with you is you not having a problem
with a far-fetched hypothesis like this, with no empirical data
backing it, but have a problem with another hypothesis, the
Chemtrail one, which is much closely observed and possible to
roll, considering the vast arsenal, finances and motivation of the
ugenic masterminds

Cheers

Mmm I don’t think it’s far fetched, I would say that 9eage9 has it on the button. It gets a bit creative towards the end. Essentially 9eagle is talking about convection condensation clouds rain evaporation it’s correct.

However in #96 this needs thought out again, the engines are made from various elements mainly nickel, and titanium.

I don’t know where the aluminium and barium is coming from? I would suggest another source altogether what about the crop dusters.

Maybe your right taurad, where is the evidence in all this. Its beginning to look a bit like Flight 93, you know the one that crashed in Pennsylvania, or was it shot down, it gets worse by the day truth is folks the aircraft is back on lease and has been since 2003.

What about some serious evidence then guys, who supplies all these chemicals, where are the supply contracts, who loads these poisons into the aircraft According to this forum all these aircraft are chemtrailing so huge fleets of aircraft must exist with tanks and pumps and all that whatnot…….


7183

Touch of Class from the olden days for all you who remember the skies in the 1960s and early 1970s.Boeing 707-320C six at anyone time three up three down on the old Kangaroo route Sydney Singapore, Bombay, Muscat, London.

The Aussies owned the route and sorted everything and everyone out. High over Afghanistan close to the Russian border this side of Pakistan the Russian’s set up a powerful navigational transmitter on an island in the Aral Sea causing aircraft to stray and thus a diplomatic incident. The old cobber sitting with his feet on the panel barking out on HF declined air traffic control from the locals who couldn’t speak English, and like the good shepherd led the flock in both directions clear of troubled waters before a final G’day as the curvature swallowed him up. Class alright.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YE6Z7Extlk8

Qantas B777-300ER basks in the sunshine at the Avalon air show. Powered by two Rolls Royce 80,000ld thrust engines these are the aircraft that are causing monster trails in the skies. At twice the power per wing compared with the B707 above, technology has moved on since the 1960s but what about our minds. This video provides a rare opportunity to appreciate the scale and size of what we see in the skies.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tT5EZ5itYH4

The big daddy of them all GE 90-115B 115,000lbs monster. This is what’s over the Midwest four every hour in each direction. At $20 million aside do you seriously think they are risking this investment while messing around with chemicals and substances and secret wires and pumps? It’s tooth fairy stuff.

Is it not time to consider that just as they scammed us with the Y2K millennium bug, peak oil, swine flu and 9/11 and all the other nonsense this half cocked notion based on lies and deceit is only in place to confuse your mind, scare you and in the fullness of time control you.

[9eagle9]

Titanium requires nickel and aluminum to retain its malleability.

""peak oil, swine flu and 9/11 and all the other nonsense this half cocked notion based on lies and deceit is only in place to confuse your mind, scare you and in the fullness of time control you. ""

Scare us. As far as I'm concerned all this is very interesting but I don't have an emotional reaction to it so it becomes irrelevant. In fact I find some thier assholery brilliant but that doesn't mean I agree with it or I'm frightened by it. But i am aware of it regardless it its true or not. I don't want to close my mind to it simply because I'm not scared of it, or because I don't agree, disagree with it

[Some Bloke]

7221From what I can see myself , the planes leaving these trails are plain white (using a telescope) no tail or wing markings, ryanair etc leave short trails.
Then there is the problem of trees dying off, I've lost lots of apricot and peach trees, from the top down as in california
Yes we get dust over ftom Africa, but it always comes with the rain, never in a clear sky
Then there are 'mackerel clouds' Hmmmmm.... we always have abdominal pains and headachces when they appear,

[Calz]

7221From what I can see myself , the planes leaving these trails are plain white (using a telescope) no tail or wing markings, ryanair etc leave short trails.
Then there is the problem of trees dying off, I've lost lots of apricot and peach trees, from the top down as in california
Yes we get dust over ftom Africa, but it always comes with the rain, never in a clear sky
Then there are 'mackerel clouds' Hmmmmm.... we always have abdominal pains and headachces when they appear,

Plausible deniability is now standard operating procedures for the PTB/W.

Chemtrails, HAARP strengthened/induced earthquakes, steering hurricanes, making enormous rain producing cloud systems nearly stationary so flooding can occur.

Nobody in their right mind would believe any of that stuff ... correct???

Never mind the abdominal pains, headaches and respiratory problems that many report after getting dumped on.

Using a telescope to spy on unmarked planes ... ohhh ... people should be arrested for that ... correct???

:tsk:

[taurad]

So based on what I've read and what we already know to be true.

Let's put a little intuitive speculation into play. Using our logical intuition and what we already know.

Flouride in the water is a by product of aluminum smelting. Aluminum acts a brain/memory/intelligence depressor. Which is why we find its bi product in our drinking water. Aluminum in the sky is not a naturally occurring state, someone has imposed artificial conditions to put it there. Either through design or accident.

Where does our drinking water come from. It falls from the sky. Cloud condensation.The same place where ALUMINUM is being dumped either by design or accident. In the sky where clouds are. Which through condensation and evaporation eventually result in our ground water (drinking supply)

So while we can contaminate our municipal drinking supplies directly with aluminum byproduct its a bit harder to contaminate individual wells and independent sources of water. So we may take another means to make sure everyone is given an equal dose We may not share the same water supply but we all share the same sky and ultimately the sky is where ALL water comes from through the process of evaporation and condensation.

Spot on…. Scientifically…

Now we neecomd proof that aluminium is being deposited into the atmosphere.

well, I don't know about "spot on, Scientifically"!
It's one of many crazy hypothesis...if you look closely @ spring water, it
has very little Floride...most of the Floride comes from the evil
geniuses in the medical/pharma and the food industry as a
supplementary poison...

Fred259, what I notice with you is you not having a problem
with a far-fetched hypothesis like this, with no empirical data
backing it, but have a problem with another hypothesis, the
Chemtrail one, which is much closely observed and possible to
roll, considering the vast arsenal, finances and motivation of the
ugenic masterminds

Cheers

Mmm I don’t think it’s far fetched, I would say that 9eage9 has it on the button. It gets a bit creative towards the end. Essentially 9eagle is talking about convection condensation clouds rain evaporation it’s correct.

However in #96 this needs thought out again, the engines are made from various elements mainly nickel, and titanium.

I don’t know where the aluminium and barium is coming from? I would suggest another source altogether what about the crop dusters.

Maybe your right taurad, where is the evidence in all this. Its beginning to look a bit like Flight 93, you know the one that crashed in Pennsylvania, or was it shot down, it gets worse by the day truth is folks the aircraft is back on lease and has been since 2003.

What about some serious evidence then guys, who supplies all these chemicals, where are the supply contracts, who loads these poisons into the aircraft According to this forum all these aircraft are chemtrailing so huge fleets of aircraft must exist with tanks and pumps and all that whatnot…….


7183

Touch of Class from the olden days for all you who remember the skies in the 1960s and early 1970s.Boeing 707-320C six at anyone time three up three down on the old Kangaroo route Sydney Singapore, Bombay, Muscat, London.

The Aussies owned the route and sorted everything and everyone out. High over Afghanistan close to the Russian border this side of Pakistan the Russian’s set up a powerful navigational transmitter on an island in the Aral Sea causing aircraft to stray and thus a diplomatic incident. The old cobber sitting with his feet on the panel barking out on HF declined air traffic control from the locals who couldn’t speak English, and like the good shepherd led the flock in both directions clear of troubled waters before a final G’day as the curvature swallowed him up. Class alright.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YE6Z7Extlk8

Qantas B777-300ER basks in the sunshine at the Avalon air show. Powered by two Rolls Royce 80,000ld thrust engines these are the aircraft that are causing monster trails in the skies. At twice the power per wing compared with the B707 above, technology has moved on since the 1960s but what about our minds. This video provides a rare opportunity to appreciate the scale and size of what we see in the skies.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tT5EZ5itYH4

The big daddy of them all GE 90-115B 115,000lbs monster. This is what’s over the Midwest four every hour in each direction. At $20 million aside do you seriously think they are risking this investment while messing around with chemicals and substances and secret wires and pumps? It’s tooth fairy stuff.

Is it not time to consider that just as they scammed us with the Y2K millennium bug, peak oil, swine flu and 9/11 and all the other nonsense this half cocked notion based on lies and deceit is only in place to confuse your mind, scare you and in the fullness of time control you.

i think those ARE the right Qs to this complicated issue...the real approach is to back anything up with data...personally for me, the only "data" i have is my studies, my daughter's health behaviour...and then friends'...and then entourage...and @ the end, the world wide web...the further from me the weaker the evidence...but not negligible...it is easy to ignore...but can be fatal

to come back to 9eagle9's case...if we're talking about a consistent layer, able to come down to earth, and cause damage, this has to be a serious input, a significant amount...casual corrosion wont satisfy this thesis...it is too inconsistent, also too scarce...

i don't know what it is, i just know our heath's problems gotta be airborne...as i mentioned before, air is the only uncontrolled variable in our health's formula...there's very knowledgeable health people i know, the only thing suspicious is the air and heavy metals (the later coming ALSO from those suspicious clouds)...

i couldn't care if it is not, i'm after the truth, couldn't care less for agendas...

BUT unless you could prove to me our air is not tempered with, i have all the right to suspect all the worst possible...

why is it difficult to experience the faintest suspicion to governments that create WARS just for the **** of it?

respiratory problems have risen 1 billion %; autism (also blamed on heavy metals) is in fashion; cancers are king (caused also of toxicity of liver and kidneys)

i mean this is a sick planet, no one dies "naturally" any more...everyone departs sick...

i know everyone knows this basic elements around us, but simple explanations are often overlooked nowadays...

by the way, what is that white spray those planes use for commercial advertisings in the sky (see the videos i posted @ the end of page 4)?

cheers

[Fred259]

[SIZE="1"][QUOTE=Fred259;212736][QUOTE=taurad;212530][QUOTE=Fred259;212496][QUOTE=9eagle9;212478][SIZE="1"]


[QUOTE]i think those ARE the right Qs to this complicated issue...the real approach is to back anything up with data...personally for me, the only "data" i have is my studies, my daughter's health behaviour...and then friends'...and then entourage...and @ the end, the world wide web...the further from me the weaker the evidence...but not negligible...it is easy to ignore...but can be fatal.
I agree, real data. The problem is even real data now can be fabricated.


to come back to 9eagle9's case...if we're talking about a consistent layer, able to come down to earth, and cause damage, this has to be a serious input, a significant amount...casual corrosion wont satisfy this thesis...it is too inconsistent, also too scarce...

I agree 9eage9 was right in what she said, but then started to wobble a bit, and try justify aluminium engines which is good, that’s detective work but it’s no really the case here.


i don't know what it is, i just know our heath's problems gotta be airborne...as i mentioned before, air is the only uncontrolled variable in our health's formula...there's very knowledgeable health people i know, the only thing suspicious is the air and heavy metals (the later coming ALSO from those suspicious clouds)...

BUT unless you could prove to me our air is not tempered with, i have all the right to suspect all the worst possible...


If as some would think the government are poisoning the people from the air then vast amounts of aluminium and barium must exist everywhere. It’s ridiculous; we don’t have any evidence of this. What we do have are isolated reports of aluminium /barium and forum members quite correctly wonder what this is. I don’t know? My view would be its maybe the military, they do use aluminum in chaff dispensers all the time mainly for training. I don’t know about Barium, but we do know that they use DU in munitions and scatter them around like confetti?

I agree with you on health problems, Im certain it’s in these fizzy drinks, sodas and food preservatives. Ive noticed bad behavior from our daughter after she drinks these junk fluids. Its not something we do a lot of and so is noticeable.. Sometimes if Im late home rather than prepare something in the kitchen I go and because a “useless eater” as you folks would say. Later during the night I wake up with twitches, Im certain it’s the junk food.

The NWO control the foods chain, sure we know that sure we know that. This week Eric Pickles UK government minister quietly published on the day of the Bin Laden news legislation banning people from growing food in allotments. These are small private gardens set aside in the city used by the people who live in flats or apartments and who want to grow food for themselves. This is no longer allowed.




[
7229


Slightly O/T mods but relevant to the taurad post and compatible with the ethos of Avalon, this is a picture of an African village. They have twelve months food stored in those granaries. The surplus was sold to the government, and all you Canadian folk listen up. Your government, so your taxes under a foreign aid initiative installed a famine disaster early warning system in Malawi. (Canadians are experts at growing food) The surplus grown by the villagers in the picture is sold and stored for twelve months, that is until they know the harvest has been successful the following year. Malawi has sufficient food stocks to feed its people in the Canadian built silos for two years…. always. How much do we have in silos?

Now criminals masquerading as the UN are promoting Monsanto terminator seed, so that they can destroy this good work and slaughter these people. Its mass genocide. They work at all levels and in different ways.The same applies to the food we consume; they just do it in a different way.



Why is it difficult to experience the faintest suspicion to governments that create WARS just for the **** of it?

Governments in the English speaking West ceased to exist years ago.Its an illusion. IMHO


respiratory problems have risen 1 billion %; autism (also blamed on heavy metals) is in fashion; cancers are king (caused also of toxicity of liver and kidneys)

i mean this is a sick planet, no one dies "naturally" any more...everyone departs sick...

i know everyone knows this basic elements around us, but simple explanations are often overlooked nowadays...

I agree Im certain its the food and its supply chain in the west. They don’t have these problems in the developing world.


by the way, what is that white spray those planes use for commercial advertisings in the sky (see the videos i posted @ the end of page 4)?

I don’t know about the white spray, its ridiculous and should be banned, the simplest action is don’t buy the product and tell the company why.

In post 100 however "Some Bloke" mentions white aircraft with no markings.People notice these trails and follow them and then....Oh no, it an unmarked all white plane, the mind plays wonderful tricks, this must be CIA, then.. I must post this on the web, its picked up by dis/mis agents pumped out on the talk shows and becomes the de facto.
No the plane is all white, because the temp is -60C at altitude and its super cooled 100% relative humidity airmass, its probably Emirates Dubai to JFK, its been airborne for a few hours and the whole aircraft is cold soaked with hoar frost especially the underside fuselage, where pressure is greatest.

That’s why its all white folks. Oh Fred259 get real we are fed up with your BS! One moment then: Aussies you just need to believe this, but you Canadians, Americans and Northern Europeans, know don’t you that when you leave your house early in the morning after a night of heavy frost -15 say the red Toyota is cold soaked and is no longer red but has now turned white with … hoar frost…its no different.

It’s all a drip feed distraction brought to you by the NWO.To them you and I are no different to the Africans in that rural village.


http://www.skybrary.aero/index.php/Hoar_Frost
http://www.tpub.com/weather2/5-8.htm

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wVCdVO7QJaE
Boeing Cold Soaking Engineering Trials.

[Realeyes]

I took these photos at 7am on Sunday 1st May from my garden. I live not far from London and read on Kerry's blog about the UK being bombarded with chemtrails. This is a most unusual sky!?!

Just wondered if these are chemtrails in the photos - or just contrails - anyone know?

Fingers crossed, I hope my photos show up on this post ;)

7147

7148

Hi everyone,
I have read all the posts that followed after posting the above and I am pretty confused now?!? I was hoping for a simple yes or no answer as my female mind has now been blown away with science on the pros and cons. :confused:
I just wanted to add that I have only witnessed these sort of skies a few times in the 13 years of living here - yes we have many planes flying over due to being close to Heathrow - but not leaving such big trails in their path.
Also, since the Japan Earthquake me and my family are suffering from sinus irritation, sore eyes and bad headaches. This is not hayfever (I use to be plagued with this years ago) this is different. And everyone I know in the UK is complaining of this sudden irritation also that leaves us feeling exhausted. Not sure what it is connected to, whether Japan's fallout leaving particles in the sky, chemtrails or some other polution - but polution of some kind.
So from what I have gathered, my photos are seen by a few Avalonians as 'contrails' and many others 'chemtrails' - I guess its up to me to choose. I just know normally when a plane flies over their trail does not hang around for long. We've had very windy days here and still the trails stayed - strange. And yes, we have had a lot of tiny dust particles landing everywhere making my windows and car pretty dirty. ;)
Thanks to everyone for sharing their thoughts on this subject - much appreciated!

[observer]

[....snip]
Just wondered if these are chemtrails in the photos - or just contrails - anyone know?

Fingers crossed, I hope my photos show up on this post ;)

Hi everyone,
I have read all the posts that followed after posting the above and I am pretty confused now?!? I was hoping for a simple yes or no answer as my female mind has now been blown away with science on the pros and cons. :confused:
[....snip]

Hi Realeyes,

There are only a few individuals in this thread who are speaking with so much authority. Those individuals are so impassioned with their atmospheric inversion point of view that they are blinded to the evidence. At comment number 45 I posted a link to (what amounts to) overwhelming evidence. At the website that link takes you to, by my latest count, there are 371 links to the evidential trail in this matter of chemtrails. See here:


Each separate photo on this website (below) is a link to further evidence in this 'chemtrail' story:

http://imageevent.com/firesat/strangedaysstrangeskies?w=4&c=4&p=14&n=1&m=-1&z=3&x=0

I would challenge any body to refute this evidence.

This argument debunking the chemtrail phenomenon is a waste of the forum's time....

Discern for yourself.

To date, no one has commented on any of the links in that evidential trail....

[Fred259]

[....snip]
Just wondered if these are chemtrails in the photos - or just contrails - anyone know?

Fingers crossed, I hope my photos show up on this post ;)

Hi everyone,
I have read all the posts that followed after posting the above and I am pretty confused now?!? I was hoping for a simple yes or no answer as my female mind has now been blown away with science on the pros and cons. :confused:
[....snip]

Hi Realeyes,

There are only a few individuals in this thread who are speaking with so much authority. Those individuals are so impassioned with their atmospheric inversion point of view that they are blinded to the evidence. At comment number 45 I posted a link to (what amounts to) overwhelming evidence. At the website that link takes you to, by my latest count, there are 371 links to the evidential trail in this matter of chemtrails. See here:


Each separate photo on this website (below) is a link to further evidence in this 'chemtrail' story:

http://imageevent.com/firesat/strangedaysstrangeskies?w=4&c=4&p=14&n=1&m=-1&z=3&x=0

I would challenge any body to refute this evidence.

This argument debunking the chemtrail phenomenon is a waste of the forum's time....

Discern for yourself.

To date, no one has commented on any of the links in that evidential trail....


Hello Observer.

The website that you posted up, which I appreciate you are just sharing with the forum is grossly irresponsible in my view. They are just trying to frighten you, dont be frightened. It’s almost like saying the oceans are now full of poisons don’t swim in the sea.

Engines

The reasons why contrails are not as you remember them as a child is because engine power output has increased four sometimes five fold. In the 1960s, and1970 engines were 20-30,000 lbs of thrust. Aircraft were fitted with three or four engines. Today power output of 100,000lbs per engine is the norm. General Electric GE manufactures the most powerful engine at around 128,000lbs of thrust five times more powerful than thirty years ago.

If the engines are producing greater power, it logical to assume that they are generating more exhaust. The exhaust is larger and consequently the time for the contrail to dissipate is longer.

Traffic Growth.

Traffic growth has exploded over the last thirty years. But what about airspace and airports have these increased? Indeed they have. Thirty years ago Stanstead Airport in UK was just farmland today its one of Europe’s busiest. Thirty years ago Manchester only had one runway today it has two. This expansion catered for the growth.

Decreased Airspace Spacing.

But what about airspace? How do you build more airspace? You can’t, its impossible.

The solution was found by reducing lateral separation (spacing) between aircraft heading in a constant direction. Therefore they were able to increase the number of aircraft using the same airspace. This means aircraft are closer together, which is why you see these "lines in the sky"

But what about safety? Safety was maintained by new technology which essentially means and in simple terms that the aircraft computers are talking with each other and making sure aircraft A does not enter into aircraft B safety zone. This way they were able to increase the number of flights using the same airspace.

Therefore

1 Bigger and more powerful engines means more exhaust = More Contrails.

2 Reduced spacing to allow for increased traffic= More contrails within a greater volume of sky when compared with thirty years ago.

or

"More powerful engines mean’s more exhaust which takes longer to dissipate. The dissipation process is further thwarted by more aircraft operating in the same airspace causing increased cirrostratus cloud covering".

How do contrails form? They form the same way that clouds form. Documents are enclosed on post 21 providing an explanation of how clouds are formed.

Finally, don’t worry you are not being sprayed from the sky.

[Realeyes]

Hi Fred259 & Observer - Bless you guys for taking the time to reply back to my question.
Fred, I see your logic; I also see around 25 planes an hour in our sky above our house heading towards Heathrow so I have seen many 'contrails' in the 13 years of living here.
Observer, thanks for the link with all the photos - very thought provoking.
The photos I recently took caught my eye because they were different, lingered on a very windy morning and looked totally unlike the usual contrails I see daily.
IMHO I am going to go with my feminine intuition that pulled me out of bed to take the photos that morning - this was something else - dreaded chemtrails! I would have prefered Fred's answer to carry on living a happy life; but my knowingness tells me otherwise and its time for me to awaken to what is really happening in our skies.
Thank you both and everyone else who posted on this subject.:hug::grouphug:

[Fred259]

Hi Fred259 & Observer - Bless you guys for taking the time to reply back to my question.
Fred, I see your logic; I also see around 25 planes an hour in our sky above our house heading towards Heathrow so I have seen many 'contrails' in the 13 years of living here.
Observer, thanks for the link with all the photos - very thought provoking.
The photos I recently took caught my eye because they were different, lingered on a very windy morning and looked totally unlike the usual contrails I see daily.
IMHO I am going to go with my feminine intuition that pulled me out of bed to take the photos that morning - this was something else - dreaded chemtrails! I would have prefered Fred's answer to carry on living a happy life; but my knowingness tells me otherwise and its time for me to awaken to what is really happening in our skies.

Realeyes… lol..i really wanted to say that Im not really providing an answer or logic.

What has happened here is that something that it totally out of the reach for most humans has been manipulated and twisted for gain and above all control.

It’s not a matter of discussion, and without exception that each and every aircraft or the 25 per hour you refer to in your post does not have any capability to spray chemicals. Its just a matter of fact. You can research at your library speak to lecturers at the local college, university, aircraft engineers, the CAA / FAA Met office and frankly they will think you are nuts, so go gently if you should ask.

You mention in your post dreaded chemtrails and carry on living a happy life and it’s these expressions that make me angry, and I am angry because why should you or anyone have this blight hanging over your life.

Here is a very good video from the Natural History Museum in London all about clouds and how they are formed. Jet trails are no different. Some of these stranger clouds that form and are posted as HAARP or planet zog on the internet are all here, it’s all perfectly natural, but for some unexplained reason some people for reasons know only to themselves prefer to create something to worry about. What is to be gained by that? Why blight your life?

I really do urge you to look into this, but not from the web or if you must from a reputable source, and the reason its important is because these trails are not going to be going away, rather its probable they will increase, so something for you to consider.

http://www.opalexplorenature.org/?q=CloudQuizAndVideo

PS. I need to offer an apology. In a pervious post I mentioned that Cumulonimbus clouds hold about 50,000 tons of water, it turns out its 500,000 tons of water, I knew it was a lot that did surprise me, I forgot a zero, Im getting old.. Sorry..

[T Smith]

Hi Fred259 & Observer - Bless you guys for taking the time to reply back to my question.
Fred, I see your logic; I also see around 25 planes an hour in our sky above our house heading towards Heathrow so I have seen many 'contrails' in the 13 years of living here.
Observer, thanks for the link with all the photos - very thought provoking.
The photos I recently took caught my eye because they were different, lingered on a very windy morning and looked totally unlike the usual contrails I see daily.
IMHO I am going to go with my feminine intuition that pulled me out of bed to take the photos that morning - this was something else - dreaded chemtrails! I would have prefered Fred's answer to carry on living a happy life; but my knowingness tells me otherwise and its time for me to awaken to what is really happening in our skies.

Realeyes… lol..i really wanted to say that Im not really providing an answer or logic.

What has happened here is that something that it totally out of the reach for most humans has been manipulated and twisted for gain and above all control.

It’s not a matter of discussion, and without exception that each and every aircraft or the 25 per hour you refer to in your post does not have any capability to spray chemicals. Its just a matter of fact. You can research at your library speak to lecturers at the local college, university, aircraft engineers, the CAA / FAA Met office and frankly they will think you are nuts, so go gently if you should ask.

You mention in your post dreaded chemtrails and carry on living a happy life and it’s these expressions that make me angry, and I am angry because why should you or anyone have this blight hanging over your life.

Here is a very good video from the Natural History Museum in London all about clouds and how they are formed. Jet trails are no different. Some of these stranger clouds that form and are posted as HAARP or planet zog on the internet are all here, it’s all perfectly natural, but for some unexplained reason some people for reasons know only to themselves prefer to create something to worry about. What is to be gained by that? Why blight your life?

I really do urge you to look into this, but not from the web or if you must from a reputable source, and the reason its important is because these trails are not going to be going away, rather its probable they will increase, so something for you to consider.

http://www.opalexplorenature.org/?q=CloudQuizAndVideo

PS. I need to offer an apology. In a pervious post I mentioned that Cumulonimbus clouds hold about 50,000 tons of water, it turns out its 500,000 tons of water, I knew it was a lot that did surprise me, I forgot a zero, Im getting old.. Sorry..

Hi Fred,

Let me say at the outset that I appreciate your skepticism. It does us all a bit a good, no matter what our understanding, to be open to any possibility.

That said, I notice your argument tends to focus on contrail formation science. Have you reviewed the sampling and analysis section of carnicom.com? That's a smoking gun, as far I'm concerned. A physical sampling of aerosol salts in so-called "contrails", among many, many other things, is enough to convince me beyond a reasonable doubt.

If you haven't yet reviewed this website -- especially this section -- I highly recommend you do. You may just find yourself at a loss...

Chemtrails are real. The evidence is overwhelming...

[Some Bloke]

72577256
Um yeah ; I'm still not convinced one way or the other on this, I have a problem about such a thick hoar frost , as it would affect control surfaces (see all the de-iceing at airports before Christmas ?)
When people say 'jet trails ' they forget this goes back to the 40's and films of B17 s ( thing is the B17 is aprox the same size ,wieght, power as a Lancaster bomber but carries a fraction of the bomb load, so what else were they carrying? )
How thick would frost need to be to cover engine cowls ?
I (inmho) think that there is some real sillyness in this field, like black chem trails and holographic planes ( think about cost of some bog standard plane Vs exotic tech plus hologram )
Not that there aren't back engineered craft out there mind.

[Fred259]

[QUOTE=Some Bloke;213955]72577256
Um yeah ; I'm still not convinced one way or the other on this, I have a problem about such a thick hoar frost , as it would affect control surfaces (see all the de-iceing at airports before Christmas ?)

Hello Brown Dog. If I may say so your dog has the most loving eyes, he’/she reminds me of Icecold without the dirty nose!

Its not like hoar frost on the ground. The Docs in #013 detail its structure here,

The water vapor turns directly into ice by sublimation forming a white crystalline ice coating which can normally be brushed off. Its not sticking to the aircraft obviously rather the aircrafts enviroment is so cold -60C that the whole fuselage turns white with cold. Cold soaked is a better description. The greater the duration the whiter it looks.

I agree clear ice is dangerous and must be removed as it primarily destroys lift and can as you say effect controls. Horrendously expensive to de-ice 15K for a B757.


When people say 'jet trails ' they forget this goes back to the 40's and films of B17 s ( thing is the B17 is aprox the same size ,wieght, power as a Lancaster bomber but carries a fraction of the bomb load, so what else were they carrying? )

Fuel. Check the difference in endurance, calculate the fuel weight at 8lbs/us gallon.


How thick would frost need to be to cover engine cowls ?

The leading edge of wings and engines are heated by hot bleed air from the engines as part of the anti-icing system so they never ice over. The same hot engine air +650C is fed to the cabin (that woke you up) however it goes through a heat exchanger, and is blasted with a coolant (Freon) before coming out the vents.


I (inmho) think that there is some real sillyness in this field, like black chem trails and holographic planes ( think about cost of some bog standard plane Vs exotic tech plus hologram )
Not that there aren't back engineered craft out there mind.

Ive seen these black orbs and strange looking small clouds. They are just small parcels of air being disturbed by dissipating wake vortices. The size and duration is proportional to speed..


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uy0hgG2pkUs
So come on Brown dog, The top pic I would estimate at 12-15,000ft where relative humidity is less than 100% so no trails.Temp might be around -10C

Bottom pic stable atmosphere Relative humidity less than 100% that trail was away in 5 minutes I would say.

http://planefinder.net/ Check this site 09.00 tomorrow

BD/ Check all that traffic over Novia Scotia will be in Europe from 06.00 onwards.

Around 10.00 check Scotland N Ireland the same will be going West towards the US.

[Fred259]

[QUOTE=Realeyes;213715]Hi Fred259 & Observer - Bless you guys for taking the time to reply back to my question.
Fred, I see your logic; I also see around 25 planes an hour in our sky above our house heading towards Heathrow so I have seen many 'contrails' in the 13 years of living here.
Observer, thanks for the link with all the photos - very thought provoking.
The photos I recently took caught my eye because they were different, lingered on a very windy morning and looked totally unlike the usual contrails I see daily.
IMHO I am going to go with my feminine intuition that pulled me out of bed to take the photos that morning - this was something else - dreaded chemtrails! I would have prefered Fred's answer to carry on living a happy life; but my knowingness tells me otherwise and its time for me to awaken to what is really happening in our skies.

Realeyes… lol..i really wanted to say that Im not really providing an answer or logic.

What has happened here is that something that it totally out of the reach for most humans has been manipulated and twisted for gain and above all control.

It’s not a matter of discussion, and without exception that each and every aircraft or the 25 per hour you refer to in your post does not have any capability to spray chemicals. Its just a matter of fact. You can research at your library speak to lecturers at the local college, university, aircraft engineers, the CAA / FAA Met office and frankly they will think you are nuts, so go gently if you should ask.

You mention in your post dreaded chemtrails and carry on living a happy life and it’s these expressions that make me angry, and I am angry because why should you or anyone have this blight hanging over your life.

Here is a very good video from the Natural History Museum in London all about clouds and how they are formed. Jet trails are no different. Some of these stranger clouds that form and are posted as HAARP or planet zog on the internet are all here, it’s all perfectly natural, but for some unexplained reason some people for reasons know only to themselves prefer to create something to worry about. What is to be gained by that? Why blight your life?

I really do urge you to look into this, but not from the web or if you must from a reputable source, and the reason its important is because these trails are not going to be going away, rather its probable they will increase, so something for you to consider.

http://www.opalexplorenature.org/?q=CloudQuizAndVideo

PS. I need to offer an apology. In a pervious post I mentioned that Cumulonimbus clouds hold about 50,000 tons of water, it turns out its 500,000 tons of water, I knew it was a lot that did surprise me, I forgot a zero, Im getting old.. Sorry..


Hi Fred,

Let me say at the outset that I appreciate your skepticism. It does us all a bit a good, no matter what our understanding, to be open to any possibility.

Hi Smithy,

Its not skepticism Honestly its complete balderdash. Its rubbish completely contrary to any training I have received over the last 34 years, I might add the last course being four months ago so Im old and worn out but up to speed with developments you could say.



That said, I notice your argument tends to focus on contrail formation science.
Have you reviewed the sampling and analysis section of carnicom.com? That's a smoking gun, as far I'm concerned. A physical sampling of aerosol salts in so-called "contrails", among many, many other things, is enough to convince me beyond a reasonable doubt.
Absolutely. Yes it’s a science but its also a reality, by that I mane its not theory. Im sure you understand the difference.



If you haven't yet reviewed this website -- especially this section -- I highly recommend you do. You may just find yourself at a loss...


I shall be entirely honest with you here Smithy. I visited the Carnicom site around a year ago when I noticed this spreading chemtrail phenomenon on alternative web sites. I should say that these are less reputable sites and so it didn’t surprise me to see this whatnot on these sites. Frankly Im a bit disturbed to see it on PA. Lets be honest Avalon is son of Camelot which established a formidable reputation, and I guess I just didn’t expect to see this material on Avalon.

What I did see on Carnicom then was and is completely different to the training I and tens of thousands of others have received, and so I dismissed him as a disinformation agent.

This evening you are inviting me to visit the site again and I have done so for around ninety minutes.

Specifically relating to the salts and the soil samples they did in New Mexico, I am unable to agree or disagree. On balance I would probably agree with his analysis. I have no other proof to the contrary. However I would say that many other activities go on in and around New Mexico, and it’s also a very arid and desert enviroment. But let’s agree his findings are correct.

Can we now have a trail in New York State, New England, New Orleans, and let’s compare. The fact that his findings indicate high level of elements doesn’t mean they have come from spraying aircraft does it.

I then decided to look at other areas of his site, and I have seriously severe issues with what he says. Ninty percent is correct, I would agree with however what he does is change key critical words on scientific fact or make statements to the contrary.

Here are some examples.

Carnicom.

A preliminary model has been developed to estimate the length of time that is
required for a contrail to dissipate. It is assumed within this
discussion that the contrail is composed of water vapor (per
historical definition). The model developed agrees extremely well
with the historical behavior and observation of contrails. The model
is not intended to encompass all variables that may be in effect, but
it does model reasonably well the expected behavior of water at
flight altitudes. Any errors will be corrected if and as they are
brought to my attention. It will be noted that this model is not a
function of relative humidity, as no basis from thermodynamics
has yet been established for it's inclusion. Any model based upon
the premise of "mixing" as the primary mechanism for dissipation
requires quantification to receive consideration. Cloud formation and the
introduction of aerosol particles to assist in their formation is an
entirely different discussion which is to be examined separately.
The conclusions that result from the study of this model are several:

Fred.

Items marked in black.

Without exception Relative Humidity is fundamental to every aspect of life on this Planet Earth. It can never be discounted. Any engineer or scientist will tell you that.

Mixing is a fundamental concept of Relative Humidity.

“Cloud formation and the introduction of aerosol particles to assist in their formation”. Since when have aerosol particles been required in cloud formation?

Carnicom

Contrails composed of water vapor routinely dissipate, as the physics and
chemistry of this model will demonstrate. As a separate and distinct
set of events, clouds may form if temperature, relative humidity, and
aerosol conditions are favorable to their development. If "contrails"
by appearance transform into "clouds", it can be concluded that the
material of composition is not water vapor.Fred

This is 100% disinformation. Red Flag Red Flag!

Aerosols are not required to form clouds.(This is what he wants you to think)



This Carnicom statement is complete balderdash.

If "contrails” by appearance transform into "clouds", it can be concluded that the
material of composition is not water vapor. (Please read it again).

What!

It’s an undeniable fact that clouds are formed by water vapor held in a gaseous state in the atmosphere condensing into water. Above the freezing level the water turns to ice (ie cirrus cloud).

Its an undeniable fact that if an aircraft passes through this atmosphere gasses from in the combustion chamber are directed via nozzle guide vanes (NGVs) onto the turbines (like a water wheel) at circa 2,500ft/sec and 1200C before passing through another set and vanes and out into the atmosphere via a convergent duct.

The “Gas Laws” are rock solid fundamental science and state that if a fluid passes through a convergent duct at speed the temp and pressure will decrease and the velocity increase. This is what we want isn’t it velocity or thrust. Shock cooling and a massive reduction of pressure results in water. This water turns to ice crystals instantly and forms contrails provided the relative humidity is 100% or close to 100%The contrails dissipate into cirrus clouds.



7260

Sir Frank Whittle & Sir Stanley Hooker
Rolls Royce Derby England.

These undeniable facts are the fundamentals of jet propulsion invented by Sir Frank Whittle the inventor of the Jet Engine and developed by “the maestro himself” on the right Sir Stanley Hooker.

Hooker a brilliant mathematician and engineer left Cambridge aged 23 and entered Rolls Royce Derby England where he developed the supercharger that went on the front end of the Merlin engine that powered the Spitfire that won the war.

He then went onto a brilliant career developing the Olympus engine that powered Concorde, the Pegasus VTOL engine that powered the Harrier before developing the Rolls Royce RB 211 high bypass ratio axial flow gas turbine engine that powered the B747 Jumbo Jet in the early 1970s.

This engine still powers 40% of the world’s airlines as well as the industrial version that pumps oil and gas over vast distances on four continents of the world.

Hooker would turn in his grave should I fail to defend his masterpiece of an invention and on the basis T Smith you forced me to follow up on the Cliff Carnicom site, and this utter nonsense that he writes I am calling him out as a disinformation agent and source of confusion concern and anxiety and an abomination to mankind.


However it gets worse.

Carnicom

The conditions under consideration show that the ice crystals
within a contrail can warm to the melting point and subsequently melt
with the heat provided by solar radiation.

Fred.

Complete balderdash. What he is saying is that ice crystals at 35,000ft are melted to 0 degrees by inbound solar radiation. Big Big Red Flag! That is incorrect. Further if this were remotely possible with the temperature at this altitude being circa -50C and, given air warms as it descends the temp on the ground would be a whopping 105degreesC assuming standard lapse rate of 3Cper000 ft. Evidenced here International Standard Atmosphere.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Standard_Atmosphere

Carnicom.

As demonstrated both by historical observation and this model, the
time expected for contrail dissipation is relatively short, e.g., 2
minutes or less. This assumes the contrail is composed essentially
of water vapor, per the classic definition (condensed trail).

Fred.

No. Clouds and contrails are formed the same way. If the contrail dissipates in 2 minutes so will the cloud. If the clouds last for 4 hours so will the contrails, but they will spread out into cirrus or cirrostratus. (Covering)


Carnicom.

The rate of contrail dissipation is highly dependent upon the
the size of the ice crystal particles and the amount of solar radiation.
Dependence upon relative humidity is not evident. 'Cloud'
formation from aircraft, should it occur, is dependent primarily upon
the temperature, the relative humidity, and the type and size of
aerosol particles(nuclei) that are introduced.

Fred.

No No. I would love to meet this guy. It’s nothing to do with solar radiation. It all relates to relative humidity which he ignores. What does he mean by relative humidity not being evident it exists throughout the world, and should it ever not exist mankind will also cease to exist.

Then he says that ‘Cloud' formation from aircraft, should it occur, is dependent primarily upon the temperature, the relative humidity, and the type and size of
aerosol particles(nuclei) that are introduced.

So this is the spraying he has us talking about. So call your local airline and tell them your not flying till they stop spraying, call the chief engineer and ask him where these tanks pipes and pumps are, because I have been flying for thirty four years and I tell you for sure hand on heart and bible they don’t exist. If they do exist produce the manuals and electrical diagrams that power the pumps. Its complete rubbish, this man should be jailed.

Carnicom.

One of the accomplishments from this most current analysis is that generalized statements regarding the effect of humidity upon the duration of vapor trails can no longer be accepted without further definition. It can be seen that the effects of humidity upon vapor trail evaporation rates are generally insignificant and minor within the historical reference frame of human experience, physics, chemistry, meteorology and common sense observation.

Fred.

Utter rubbish, he is trying to down play the importance of relative humidity. Without relative humidity in the atmosphere clouds wouldn’t form , without clouds you have no rain and without rain you have no crops. Therefore human life is unsustainable.


Carnicom.

The basic form of the contrail dissipation model, based upon the
chemistry, mathematics and physics of thermodynamics is as follows:

Time for dissipation = (mass of water crystal * (Q + heat of fusion))
/ power

where Q is the amount of heat required to increase the temperature of
a substance (ice).

or

t(sec) = (m (kg) * Ht(kj/kg)) / P(watts)

where t is the time required for contrail
dissipation(transformation), in seconds, m is the mass of the ice
crystal in kilograms, Ht is the heat of transformation of ice in
kilojoules per kilogram, and P is the power applied to the system in
watts.


Fred.

I agree with this, however this is not Carnicorn formula it was probably put together by some of the early engineers and scientists. I don’t agree with this increase in temperature, I think he has twisted the words or done something.

The formula is right, essentially the greater the amount of water vapor from the engine the longer it’s going to take to dissipate. He talks about heat, and is confusing you or tricking you into thinking of solar heat, its not that heat at all, its latent heat.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latent_heat


This man is a scoundrel Im afraid and it’s obvious this is where all this misinformation is coming from.

I do notice that he spends some time on the Alex Jones show and this needs to be noted.

[T Smith]

I do notice that he spends some time on the Alex Jones show and this needs to be noted.

I wasn't aware Clifford Carnicom had appeared on Alex Jones... but what's the connection? Are you implying Alex Jones is a disinformation agent as well?

[aranuk]

Fred you have presented an overwhelming testimony my friend. If I could possibly remember all the scientific data and proof you have mentioned I feel I could deserve a Bsc 2/1 anywhere!

Stan

¤=[Post Update]=¤

I have seen videos where Alex Jones has been accused of a few more things than a dis-informationalist.

Stan

[mosquito]

What a long, occasionally tiresome read !
Here's my (hopefully only) contribution.
I too, have never bought into the idea of "chemtrails", as far as I'm concerned they're contrails, nothing more. Fred has provided an astounding amount of evidence in order to explain the phenomenon, I'm amazed he has the patience, I certainly wouldn't have ! The quality of his posts suggests he's either an aeronautical engineer or a pilot (forgive me if I'm wrong or if you've already stated which).

I am and always have been open to having my mind changed, but none of the "evidence" presented here by the "chemtrail" brigade has done that. Photos of light aircraft spraying crops ARE NOT evidence of large aircraft being fitted with spray equipment ! Several people have reported having seen planes "criss-cross" the sky - have you really ? Have you seen them turn around 180 degrees and fly back and forth ? Or have you simply seen a build up of lingering ice crystals, left by large numbers of aircraft in congested airspace ? NONE of the photos presented here is evidence of wide-spread, high-altitude chemical spraying. I AM prepared to believe that some form of high-altitude spraying goes on in different parts of the world, but from the evidence I've seen, and that has been presented here I do not accept it as a world-wide conspiracy.
In exactly the same way that the mass-media feeds the watchers with nonsense, sometimes the alternative media, inadvertantly, does the same, so I respectfully suggest we keep our minds open and examine the evidence on both sides before reaching conclusions.

[noprophet]

I'm still very confused by this video...

essXGwJjSA0

[Gustav]

That is really messed up.. I recognize the lining btw. I similar lining in the sky a few days ago above my house. But there was definetely a plane 'attached' to it... Visible with the naked eye

[Fred259]

I'm still very confused by this video...

essXGwJjSA0


The video was shot over Holland at 15.00 GMT (for arguments sake), so what direction is the aircraft going? West I would say heading up towards Scotland. Why? 15.00GMT x15=225degrees from North. This means the sun is 225degrees from North.

Look at noprophet’s video, where is the sun? Over the roof tops, so that is 225degrees from north. Where is North? Estimate 135degrees around clockwise so I would say around the 2 O’clock position, that’s north. So this aircraft is definitely heading west towards the top of Scotland and then over the Atlantic.. Its 4 engined and and has come from the East so I would say perhaps Emirates or Singapore Airlines going to the US.

Why does the aircraft disappear? First it’s far away, and moving at 7.5 miles per minute or 760 feet per second look at the acute angle he is filming at, so this object is not going to be like an everyday object is it.. The sun is shinning across the aircraft from left to right, and what we on the ground are experiencing is parallax error. It’s a bit like sitting in the passenger seat and looking at the speedometer, it reads 70mph, but if you were sitting in the drivers seat it would read 75mph. NB. Tell that to the next police officer should you be stopped. I’m suffering from parallax error constable!


7263

Parallax Error.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parallax


Perhaps I should explain this by way of a story. If you are escaping from the NWO, this may save your life.

John Peters & Adrian Nicol an RAF Tornado crew were shot down in the first gulf war. After bombing an Iraqi target they turned for home, low level probably around 240feet when they took incoming small arms fire which started an engine fire and knocked out the hydraulic system. Peters struggled keeping the right way up. The fire was now spreading, and with no control it’s definitely time now to leave the office.

After they both ejected safely they ended up half unconscious under a parachute before thumping down into a hot Iraqi treeless desert. People talk about ejecting as if it’s like getting up from a seat. The reality is the extreme forces knock the stuffing out of you and you end up dazed confused, and totally disorientated.

Peters & Nicol had to escape or be captured and tortured, so this is not a good situation we are in. They had come from a base in Saudi which is south of Iraq, so what direction do they start walking? What way is south? It’s not a good idea walking in the direction of the people you have just bombed!

Fortunately both were taught about this during training and so this is top drawer RAF survival and escape procedure. Equally it applies to you, if you are escaping or perhaps lost, even at sea, all points around the world, 100% genuine and never fails.

We agree 24 hours per day.
We agree the earth is a circle so 360 degrees.
We agree we have a sun.

The earth moves around the sun at 15 degrees per hour.
(Check 15degrees x 24 hrs =360degrees or 360/24=15, its the same.)

360 degrees are the points of the compass.

It doesn’t matter where you are in the world; put the local time back to GMT on your watch.

Multiply that number by 15.
Example its 11.00GMT while I type this so 11x15=165 degrees from North.

The sun is 165 degrees from North.

Face the sun and measure out by estimate minus 90deg that’s east then minus another 90 deg that’s North. In this example while I looked at the sun North was behind my back.

You have now found north. (just like Peters & Nicol.)

Where is Saudi, South, so fix a point on the horizon and walk for one hour and then do the calculation again Remember after one hour the earth will have moved on another 15degrees.

Agreed? If the NWO crack down in Nebraska, and Kansas is a free state make sure you make your escape heading south wont you! We have been here before; allied airmen shot down over Europe always escaped via Switzerland which was neutral, then through France via the resistance and back to England. History is repeating itself.

[heyokah]

I'm still very confused by this video...

essXGwJjSA0

Hope that Fred259 can take the time to watch this and comment on the fact that there were 2 contrails and at the same time this....... well Fred259, what is this to your opinion?
Do you call this a contrail? Or are they spraying crobs over a town.....?

****

OH, SORRY FRED, I saw just now you gave the answer I actually expected from you.....

But still..... 2 short contrails and this very long one......

[Fred259]

I'm still very confused by this video...

essXGwJjSA0

Hope that Fred259 can take the time to watch this and comment on the fact that there were 2 contrails and at the same time this....... well Fred259, what is this to your opinion?
Do you call this a contrail? Or are they spraying crobs over a town.....?

****

OH, SORRY FRED, I saw just now you gave the answer I actually expected from you.....

But still..... 2 short contrails and this very long one......

Hi Heyokah,

So you are on the Dutch French border lets agree Maastricht area + - 50 miles.

Check out this video of live traffic over the Benelux.

http://planefinder.net/ And check it again at 18.00GMT.

Check out London. If any of these aircraft were spraying a human population not only would they be spraying themselves but the British Army Parachute Regiment would be kicking down the door of Downing Street and taking these criminals at gun point. (Hint !)

………something like this Heyokah,….


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1OhjAhWOpsA

The long trail is an over flight routing out over the North Sea. He is high. The other trails will be lower and a completely different atmosphere. The atmosphere is living; it’s like a coral reef. Fly over Amsterdam contrails will form, then over the bulb field’s contrails stop. The city gives of heat, this changes the atmosphere,

Don’t be a victim; they are fooling us playing tricks with our mind. They are evil people, but we will prevail. Times are hard and things are bad, but better times will come again. They are not as powerful as they think.

If you go to Camelot and look in the library for the interview and video B&K did in Montreaux Switzerland with Michael St Clair. It’s a very truthful video IMHO.

St Clair isn’t a goof, Gentleman, Swiss army officer, Lawyer, Consultant he knows the score. Listen to him, he says yes bad times will come but good times will also follow..

We have a fantastic future…but first we need to deal with the federalists Herman Van Rompuy and the new world order.

[heyokah]

These ones I took in the middle of France, a remote aria, no towns or airports around....

http://i54.tinypic.com/nb6tyd.jpg

http://i51.tinypic.com/2dha6fq.jpg

[observer]

There are always two sides to every story, the official version, and the version that carefully examines the evidence.

There is no denying what Fred259 documents is a plausible explanation for contrails - even the ones that seem to linger in the Sky for hours. However, none of what he is saying is addressing the facts as they are presented.


First, the evidence shows that the chemtrail spraying is being done through manifolds at the trailing edge of the wings of these tanker aircraft. No (informed) one is suggesting the chemicals are being discharged through the engines. The spray is combining outside of the engines in the exhaust stream from the manifolds that discharge at the trailing edge of the wings.

Evidence - Exhibit A (video showing manifold discharge of chemical agent)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bSSWnXQsgOU&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bSSWnXQsgOU&feature=related


Next, it doesn't matter on what day one sees the chemtrails, one can also observe aircraft leaving (either) no contrail at all, or very often leaving a short contrail - all within the same apparent airspace as those unmarked military tankers leaving chemtrails. Atmospheric "inversion" cannot account for the reason that commercial aircraft leave contrails - the obvious result of Fred259's argument; military type aircraft leave chemtrails in the same exact sky - the obvious conclusion of the evidential trail.

Evidence - Exhibit 'B' (video showing short and long contrails along with crisscross markings of pattern spraying - chemtrails)
Note: The 'turn-around' photo in the clip, thus answering an earlier question regarding evidence of the same planes making the cross-hatched patterns.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lGkYxdkjfxE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lGkYxdkjfxE

One can stipulate to the conclusion (Fred259's argument) that not every line in the sky is a chemtrail. One must be blind if one concludes that every line in the sky is a contrail.


Next, Fred259 looked very briefly at the lab evidence, wherein he concluded the presenter was a "disinformation agent" and "dismissed" his findings.

Well then, lets just "dismiss" all of the independent lab tests conducted around the States that have found excessive traces of aluminum and barium (along with other obscene mixtures of compounds) at Fred259's say-so.

The chemicals being discovered in these lab tests are causing health problems. High blood pressure is up over the last ten years. Upper respiratory illness is up. Need I go-on?

Evidence - Exhibit 'C': (Just one of many videos I could have chosen to demonstrate the lab result issue) Disinformation??? You Decide...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RFpS1yVioLM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RFpS1yVioLM


And Last, I personally have observed the unmarked military type tankers are the culprit. I have taken to carrying a pair of binoculars with me, and any time I see obvious chemtrail patterns, I look at the plane through the binoculars. Invariably, the plane is unmarked and white. Hoarfrost.... indeed !!!

Evidence - Exhibit 'D': (History channel documentary linking 'chemtrailing' to the H.A.A.R.P. project)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NgynYoVnkvM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NgynYoVnkvM

I've been a member of the Avalon Forum since back when it was the original Avalon Forum. This issue of Chemtrails has been broached in many threads. I don't recall any individual in any of those threads so determined - to the point of an obsession - to discredit the evidence that is available.

I personally, am more than willing to stipulate to the fact that not every line in the sky is a chemtrail. However, the evidence is overwhelming that there is a program in process. Wake-up. The brain functions much like a parachute; it works best when its open.

Fred259, it is now time for you to come clean.


Either you are an agent sent in here to shed confusion on this chemtrail/contrail issue.
Or, you are just so blinded by your 'Oxford Template of Learning' conditioning.
Which is it?

[heyokah]

I'm still very confused by this video...

essXGwJjSA0

Hope that Fred259 can take the time to watch this and comment on the fact that there were 2 contrails and at the same time this....... well Fred259, what is this to your opinion?
Do you call this a contrail? Or are they spraying crobs over a town.....?

****

OH, SORRY FRED, I saw just now you gave the answer I actually expected from you.....

But still..... 2 short contrails and this very long one......

Hi Heyokah,

So you are on the Dutch French border lets agree Maastricht area + - 50 miles.

Check out this video of live traffic over the Benelux.

http://planefinder.net/ And check it again at 18.00GMT.

Check out London. If any of these aircraft were spraying a human population not only would they be spraying themselves but the British Army Parachute Regiment would be kicking down the door of Downing Street and taking these criminals at gun point. (Hint !)

………something like this Heyokah,….


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1OhjAhWOpsA



Do you want to scare ME ?
You like video's like that !?
Come on Fred, that's not how things are to be handled......

[Fred259]

Do you want to scare ME ?
You like video's like that !?
Come on Fred, that's not how things are to be handled......

We are dealing with the "New World Order" my friend! They vaposised 2,900 office workers one day in September 2001, maybe its the only way they understand. I do take your point though.

"The horse can be made ready for battle but victory will be in the day of the lord".

[heyokah]

Do you want to scare ME ?
You like video's like that !?
Come on Fred, that's not how things are to be handled......

We are dealing with the "New World Order" my friend! They vaporised 2,900 office workers one day in September 2001, maybe its the only way they understand. I do take your point though.

"The horse can be made ready for battle but victory will be in the day of the lord".

That will not be an answer to that d..m poison they are dumping on us at this very moment.

Hope victory will be in my day, or that of my children.

And that 'day of the Lord'-thing will not keep me from my responsibility to point at the evil when-and where-ever I can.
Sorry for you Fred, but that says the Lord within me .......

[taurad]

Do you want to scare ME ?
You like video's like that !?
Come on Fred, that's not how things are to be handled......


We are dealing with the "New World Order" my friend! They vaposised 2,900 office workers one day in September 2001, maybe its the only way they understand. I do take your point though.

"The horse can be made ready for battle but victory will be in the day of the lord".

I've started to have a problem with this statement...the reason being
all sides wanting a NWO...
TPTB want a NWO because they're not happy with the slow
pace of their big plans, massive plans... Hence, a NWO is needed!

I don't like the old paradigm, I want a NWO, quite different
from the old one, and definitely contrary to the new attempted one...

Others looking for NWO in the between!

What a mess, starting with lingo in circulation,
ideas and concepts, facts stuck @ the bottom,
overshadowed by everything else!

Again, what a mess!

[Fred259]

There are always two sides to every story, the official version, and the version that carefully examines the evidence.

There is no denying what Fred259 documents is a plausible explanation for contrails - even the ones that seem to linger in the Sky for hours. However, none of what he is saying is addressing the facts as they are presented.

Hello Observer,

I don’t know what to say other than this is all alien to me and the industry I have worked in for the last thirty four years.



First, the evidence shows that the chemtrail spraying is being done through manifolds at the trailing edge of the wings of these tanker aircraft. No (informed) one is suggesting the chemicals are being discharged through the engines. The spray is combining outside of the engines in the exhaust stream from the manifolds that discharge at the trailing edge of the wings.


In your first video, they talk about this KC-10 “tanker” aircraft. Yes these are modified DC-10 commercial aircraft used to air-air refueling, but they don’t have tanks. They want you to think that all the seats have been taken out and replaced with chemical tanks. The cabin is empty. The fuel comes from centerline and wing tanks just like any other aircraft. Its not possible to fit the cabin with tanks containing fuel it would be miles over its design weights etc and take off weight etc.

The aircraft is descending with the power right back he is trying to wash off speed.

The trails you see out the back is really vortices and a bit of exhaust. The engines are on idle,(almost).

They point to these nozzles; these are housings containing flap actuator motors’ valves and whatnot. They aren’t nozzles. I do suppose I should be honest here as I have Bills “integrity” thread ringing in my mind so what the hell, they also have DU counter balance weights inside those housings, fully contained and seal proof. DU mass is 1.5 greater than lead (I think) so they did use them in the past but these days they use tungsten.

Its not remotely possible to creep up like this on another aircraft, the crew up front know he is behind him, and I think the whole video is a disgrace. I do like the official logo tanker enemy and the cool music provided for your additional entertainment.



Next, it doesn't matter on what day one sees the chemtrails, one can also observe aircraft leaving (either) no contrail at all, or very often leaving a short contrail -

I agree. It’s entirely dependant on the state and relative humidity of the atmosphere.

28,000ft Relative humidity 60% No Cloud or contrail

30,000ft Relative humidity 100% Clouds & Contrails

32,000ft Relative humidity 70% No Clouds or Contrails

34,000ft Relative humidity 100% Clouds & Contrails

It’s a living atmospheres always changing think of it like a living coral reef.


All within the same apparent airspace as those unmarked military tankers leaving chemtrails.

See Above.


Atmospheric "inversion" cannot account for the reason that commercial aircraft leave contrails - the obvious result of Fred259's argument

I don’t think I used the word atmospheric inversions, Ive never heard of that before. Temperature inversions yes, but again I deliberately avoided talking about TI’s so as to keep to basic facts rather than confuse the issue.

If the dry bulb temp is +2C and the wet bulb temp +2C with 100% relative humidity in your backyard wherever you are, the atmosphere is supersaturated and mist will form.


Military type aircraft leave chemtrails in the same exact sky - the obvious conclusion of the evidential trail.
No. Most definitely not. I think you are saying that the commercial aircraft flies AtoB and the military aircraft flies under it and behind spraying chemicals. This doesn’t happen. Only in Hollywood my friend, you know that. Aircraft are controlled and have a radar squawk, and identification. It just doesn’t happen.

If the atmospheric conditions are right they will trail contrails.

If the atmospheric conditions are not right no contrail.

It doesn’t matter if its military or civilian, engines are engines. What matters is the state or condition of the atmosphere. Why not go to the public library or perhaps a college lecturer would confirm this with you.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d9r3H4iHFZk&NR=1

US Air Traffic Movements circa 5,000 per hour

(NB Look out for Holds or Stacks in NYC)




Evidence - Exhibit 'B' (video showing short and long contrails along with crisscross markings of pattern spraying - chemtrails)
Note: The 'turn-around' photo in the clip, thus answering an earlier question regarding evidence of the same planes making the cross-hatched patterns.



7265

Standard Navigational Hold

This is a standard holding pattern over a navigational beacon. You are most persistent Observer; they are used for holding aircraft. Let’s say the navigational hold is on a north south axis. Fly towards the beacon and on passing over hit the stop watch and roll on 25 degrees of left bank. Continue for one minute, and roll level. Hit the stop watch again and fly for one minute on a heading of 180degrees(south) After one minute commence a left turn again for one minute and after sixty seconds have passed roll the wings level and fly towards the beacon again on a heading of due north 360 degrees. Continue holding till advised. Holds can go from 3,000 to 20,000feet.

This is what produces these holding patterns. In this photograph the upper wind has blown the trails across the sky.



One can stipulate to the conclusion (Fred259's argument) that not every line in the sky is a chemtrail. One must be blind if one concludes that every line in the sky is a contrail.

No. Below I have included changes in engine size and design.This is where the confusion may be occurring. The ptb want you to think this these aircraft are spraying chemicals.Absolutely impossible.

Checkerboards Lines in the sky tic-tak-toe boards etc

This video explains the track in theory, and how separation is maintained.

These are airways where the aircraft are offset laterally 2,4,6 miles from track. Watch this short video from the CAA in London, it explains your points about "lines in the skies"

As Ive said previously it depends on the state of the atmosphere.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g_a8bZGxaCc&feature=related

Aircraft do NOT have spraying equipment installed. Period. If they did you would know about it and the industry would certainly know about it, even if it was being done covertly. We all get old and weary Observer and sometimes forgetful but we aren’t stupid either. It would be known. Remember you are talking about a highly regulated industry.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sEZcBeE33wc&feature=related

UK Air Traffic Movements circa 7,500 per day.


People wonder about the skies in the sixties, and compare them with now... I remember the 1960s as well...
[
7268

This is a 1960s engine Rolls Royce Conway, 20,000lb trust gas turbine for the B707.



7267

This is a 2010 engine Rolls Royce Trent 900 87,000 lb trust engine for the A380.

If you increase the engine power four fold don’t you think everything else will also increase, in shape and size?


Next, Fred259 looked very briefly at the lab evidence, wherein he concluded the presenter was a "disinformation agent" and "dismissed" his findings.

Now you are being naughty Observer. I think if you check back you will find that I said I didn’t know about the Carnicom New Mexico test. How would I? But I did read his test report. In I said that lets assume he is correct, but given this is a worldwide problem according to some, can we have evidence of this in New York, New Orleans and New England. I don’t have any scientific knowledge so it would be wrong for me to dismiss these findings.

If as you say this is a serious problem and that aircraft are spraying appreciate that in any one hour of the day in North America something like 5,000 aircraft are in the air. So that’s a lot of spraying and we would then have a vast data base of problem sites.

We don’t have this.

In Europe no aluminium / barium has been found. I can’t speak for Australia.

What I did say however that the Carnicom analysis of the atmosphere and jet trails etc was balderdash. In fact what he has done is deliberately turn known science on *its head. That being the case why should I believe anything else on his site.

*Observer, it needs to be understood that around thirty of us have been investigating 9/11 for the last seven years. We wasted two years by looking at the internet. 95% of everything on the web relating to 9/11 is mis/dis information. Very serious sums of money are paid by so called reputable corporations to keep you looking left while the real truth is on the right.




Well then, lets just "dismiss" all of the independent lab tests conducted around the States that have found excessive traces of aluminum and barium (along with other [B][I]obscene mixtures of compounds) at Fred259's say-so.

The chemicals being discovered in these lab tests are causing health problems. High blood pressure is up over the last ten years. Upper respiratory illness is up. Need I go-on?

Fine, where is the evidence, this should be a massive problem. Looking in the sky and blaming all you medical problems on jet trails changing the name to chemtrails and inventing all this nonsense is verging on buffoonery I would suggest. Maybe its exhaust fumes from your car, or fridge, what about the cat.! It’s quite ridiculous.



Evidence - Exhibit 'C': (Just one of many videos I could have chosen to demonstrate the lab result issue) Disinformation??? 200 million tons of aerosol to be sprayed.You Decide...

Exhibit C just really demonstrated my point, 200 million tons of aerosol chemical, think about that 200,000,000 tons. That a lot. Does this impress you?

Who has the contract to manufacture these chemicals? How are they distributed? This means that 547,000 tons of aerosol chemical is being sprayed per day….nearly 23,000 tons per hour for every hour of the year, does it sound right to you…….and no one in the industry knows about this? … lets move on…


And Last, I personally have observed the unmarked military type tankers are the culprit. I have taken to carrying a pair of binoculars with me, and any time I see obvious chemtrail patterns,

We have discussed patterns. Hope it helps.


I look at the plane through the binoculars. Invariably, the plane is unmarked and white. Hoarfrost.... indeed !!!

Observer Hoarfrost is a known hazard to aviation. I provided you with the Wikipedia report. If you are unable to accept that I do understand. Regardless it does occur and again is a known hazard.


Evidence - Exhibit 'D': (History channel documentary linking 'chemtrailing' to the H.A.A.R.P. project)

Its not evidence. Produce some and let’s discuss it…. Credible evidence. What about a manual or wiring diagram for these aircraft pumps that are spraying vast amounts of chemicals… that’s evidence. Some Joe recording a video doesn’t constitute evidence, that’s what Im trying to expose.



I've been a member of the Avalon Forum since back when it was the original Avalon Forum. This issue of Chemtrails has been broached in many threads. I don't recall any individual in any of those threads so determined - to the point of an obsession - to discredit the evidence that is available.

I also have followed Avalon and Camalot since 2006 if I recall.


Fred259, it is now time for you to come clean.


Either you are an agent sent in here to shed confusion on this chemtrail/contrail issue.
Or, you are just so blinded by your 'Oxford Template of Learning' conditioning.
Which is it?


This is the best question of the whole post!. You sound like my wife...

So let’s study the question. You have provided two options and I must decide which option and inform you. However you said rather revealingly “Which is it”

I do think this is important. It tells me the way your mind works. What if neither of the options fits. What do I do then? Decline or what? Perhaps this goes some way in explaining why you have difficulty accepting known science. It’s not your fault, you are a victim of these scoundrels who seek to control your mind, and Im trying to expose these scoundrels just as you are.

If I see them taking the P*** or any deception particularly where I have an understanding of the subject I will speak up. Would you rather I keep quite and leave you in manipulated bliss.

You say that Im spreading confusion. I would reject your comment rather I’m sharing with you my professional knowledge.

[mosquito]

The refusal of these people to accept Fred's evidence and years of experience is amazing !
I hope I reincarnate as a tree - they're more intelligent than humans

[DoubleHelix]

Fred in short are you saying the the whole chemtrail phenomenon is propaganda?

Every case presented is misconstrued and explainable through the atmospheric effects of jet fuel?

[chancy]

Hello Fred259:: I have followed this thread since the beginning and since I am not trying to convince you of anything maybe it's time for you to read my posts. I have read what you have said and it really has nothing to do with chemtrails. It's got everything to do with contrails and cloud formation(s). They are NOT the SAME THING. You are telling everyone in this thread that there are NO planes other than crop sprayers. That is downright a LIE. I am really getting tired of reading BS from YOU. IF this forum is for truth then let's talk truth. I gave you a website backing up the truth about a 747 aircraft owned by EVERGREEN Post #60 that does have jet aircraft full of spraying equipment and tanks throughout where the passenger sections would have been located. I have been in their aircraft and discussed what we are talking about here on this thread. They even agree that it's very much possible to spray chemicals from a 747. So if the company that owns and operates a 747 that can spray chemicals and or water why would you tell everyone that it's not possible? You must not have checked it out. I gave you a video of an jet aircraft spraying Post #51.
Since these jets are set up for spraying pretty much any liquid substance why are you telling everyone that it's not possible?

Your post #157 states having tanks in the jet are NOT POSSIBLE? and I quote from your post #157
"In your first video, they talk about this KC-10 “tanker” aircraft. Yes these are modified DC-10 commercial aircraft used to air-air refueling, but they don’t have tanks. They want you to think that all the seats have been taken out and replaced with chemical tanks. The cabin is empty. The fuel comes from centerline and wing tanks just like any other aircraft. Its not possible to fit the cabin with tanks containing fuel it would be miles over its design weights etc and take off weight etc.
The aircraft is descending with the power right back he is trying to wash off speed.
The trails you see out the back is really vortices and a bit of exhaust. The engines are on idle,(almost).
They point to these nozzles; these are housings containing flap actuator motors’ valves and whatnot. They aren’t nozzles. I do suppose I should be honest here as I have Bills “integrity” thread ringing in my mind so what the hell, they also have DU counter balance weights inside those housings, fully contained and seal proof. DU mass is 1.5 greater than lead (I think) so they did use them in the past but these days they use tungsten.
Its not remotely possible to creep up like this on another aircraft, the crew up front know he is behind him, and I think the whole video is a disgrace. I do like the official logo tanker enemy and the cool music provided for your additional entertainment."


As I have said above you must not have read my posts. It is possible and has been done and it is being done! All you had to do was look at the EVERGREEN website IF you don't like what you see on the tanker spraying videol. As I said you are talking about weather formations and we are talking about CHEMTRAILS. They are completely different and this thread is getting very old since as I said from my first post in this thread I am not trying to convince you of anything BUT You telling people out and out nonsense that it's not possible to spray from jets is getting to be old.
IF you want to talk about the weather and cloud formation this is not the thread. This is about chemtrails. The facts have been given and you just have not looked at them or you have ignored them. IF you did you wouldn't still be saying it's impossible to spray from jets as you have in post #157.
This thread is a waste of time if you are talking about weather and cloud formation and not chemtrails.
Everyone on the planet has seen a contrail but apparently from what you are saying the technology is not there to spray chemtrails. It's time to look at my posts....................maybe then you will see that it has nothing to do with contrails. It has everything to do with spraying chemicals from jets.
Regards,
Chancy

[Fred259]

Fred in short are you saying the the whole chemtrail phenomenon is propaganda?

Every case presented is misconstrued and explainable through the atmospheric effects of jet fuel?

Absolutely. Yes.

This is an attack on the truth movement / alternative thinker / alternative media.

Because the vast majority of people don’t understand or care what comes from the back end of an engine, the criminals in the ptb are putting this about to destroy the truth movement. Shortly they will point us out as Morons’. Your not, so stop believing it it’s a Red Flag, Red Flag we are under attack..

Codex Alimentaraiates. What the hell is that? I genuinely didn’t know, until I met a women who started rabbiting on about these at a meeting. What are Alimentaraiates I said, what rubbish are you talking about women, get a grip for goodness sake, I said!

She said. You, sit here now !…. So I did….. and she explained that she had a health foods business that was being attacked by Big Pharma via the government. It soon became clear what was going on, and how Big Pharma were manipulating government and changing and in some cases banning the use of alternative medicines and remedies. It was a complete shock to me, but all part of the plan, just another bit of the jigsaw, one that I didn’t know even existed.

So over a coffee she told me about her Alimentaraiates and I told her about my engines! Lol my point being that two people from completely different industries were able to share knowledge and understanding.

[Fred259]

Hello Fred259:: I have followed this thread since the beginning and since I am not trying to convince you of anything maybe it's time for you to read my posts.
Hello Clancy, thanks for posting..

I have read what you have said and it really has nothing to do with chemtrails. It's got everything to do with contrails and cloud formation(s). They are NOT the SAME THING.
They are the same thing Chancy, the public look up in the skies and see aircraft trails.

The trails are caused by metrological state or condition of the atmosphere, and combustion from jet engines.

The ptb have a misinformation campaign running to hood wink the public into thinking that they are been sprayed from the air, and so the word “chemtrail” was born.

You are telling everyone in this thread that there are NO planes other than crop sprayers.
Indeed. But also I do expect them to use some common sense.

7,500 aircraft per day pass through the skies the UK, something like 50,000 in the US, around 25,000 per day in Europe. I don’t have the figures for Australia or Canada.
All of these aircraft may produce large contrails if the atmospheric conditions permit. NOT ONE is CHEMTRAILING.

That is downright a LIE. I am really getting tired of reading BS from YOU. IF this forum is for truth then let's talk truth. I gave you a website backing up the truth about a 747 aircraft owned by EVERGREEN Post #60 that does have jet aircraft full of spraying equipment and tanks throughout where the passenger sections would have been located. I have been in their aircraft and discussed what we are talking about here on this thread. They even agree that it's very much possible to spray chemicals from a 747. So if the company that owns and operates a 747 that can spray chemicals and or water why would you tell everyone that it's not possible? You must not have checked it out. I gave you a video of an jet aircraft spraying Post #51.
Since these jets are set up for spraying pretty much any liquid substance why are you telling everyone that it's not possible?
Yes I am.

Im talking about the trails people see in the skies from aircraft and the 50,000 flight movements per day in the US alone. Commercial aircraft, military aircraft, any jet engine will put out these trails if the atmospheric conditions permit.

I full agree many commercial aerial contractors operating aircraft are involved in various activities including spraying.

Crop spraying of farmland. Always done at low level.

Cloud Seeding. Generally up to 10,000 feet or the lower atmosphere.

Fire Fighting. Especially so in Canada Russia and the US.

I agree many companies exist throughout the developed world who spray chemicals and substances from aircraft. Air Atlantique have a contract with the government in the UK doing this work. Through the developed world organisations will be in place to do this work. However almost exclusively its oil suppression or chemical spill elimination work, the sort of flying they were doing in the gulf of Mexico oil spill.

We need to start being sensible, since you accuse me of telling lies. I'm talking about high altitude jet aircraft and contrails, which the public rightly see and know, are the product of combustion.

The truth movement has been infiltrated by “usefull idiots” who spread these mistruths. They are paid for by the New World Order or ptb. It’s a deception and a complete hoax.

Those in the truth movement have been deceived. This is an attack on the movement and the alternative media. If you believe this you are a victim.

If I may say so Chancy and without any hostility for what is to be gained by that,,,, you are being naughty aren’t you. You are splitting hairs.

I have a good friend who every other day is involved in spraying chemicals from aircraft here in the UK. Almost exclusively it’s because some oil tanker in water ballast has flushed its tanks in the Irish Sea or the North of Scotland and they are dispatched to clean up the mess, spraying chemicals from aircraft, how else they would do it? It's always done low level around 500 feet or lower.

Evergreen. This US company is the opposite of Air Atlantique in the UK. Yes they have government contracts for all sort of aerial work. The 747 you refer to are for firefighting, I think you mentioned that. Pictures are available on the internet of Evergreen firefighting. Obviously the aircraft are modified to enable them to do this. Again you are splitting hairs. At a rough estimate something like 250,000 aircraft per day are operating throughout the world, none of them are spraying chemicals Chancy.

Photographs of Pinal air park on the web show aircraft parked up. That's exactly correct they are parked up in long term storage in the dry Arizona heat. The engines are removed, if you look closely the flaps are extended because the hydraulic oil has been drained. They are not airworthy, yet the ptb and the “useful idiots” publish this nonsense to destroy and make fools of people like you and I, and those in the truth movement.


Your post #157 states having tanks in the jet are NOT POSSIBLE? and I quote from your post #157
"In your first video, they talk about this KC-10 “tanker” aircraft. Yes these are modified DC-10 commercial aircraft used to air-air refueling, but they don’t have tanks. They want you to think that all the seats have been taken out and replaced with chemical tanks. The cabin is empty. The fuel comes from centerline and wing tanks just like any other aircraft. Its not possible to fit the cabin with tanks containing fuel it would be miles over its design weights etc and take off weight etc.

Its not possible because of the weights as I have indicated.....Think about it.. What does a gallon of fuel weigh? How many gallons are you going to put in these tanks?

Its also not possible because of the pressure of the outside atmosphere, when compared with the pressure in the cabin and the preassure in these so called tanks.. All three will be different.

Here is something for you to ponder.. Aircraft tyres have fusible plugs. When the preassure exceeds a certain value these plugs release the nitrogen to atmosphere, or the tyre will burst. Why is this? Because “With the volume constant any increase in temperature will lead to an increase in preassure” The tyre has a constant volume. If the temp increases so will the preassure, causing Bang!

Now apply this to these tanks that you think are fitted in these aircraft cabins.

Yes yes the evergreen aircraft have tanks but it’s for firefighting, and it will never be at altitude with those tanks unless the valves are fully open, or the tank would implode.


As I have said above you must not have read my posts. It is possible and has been done and it is being done! All you had to do was look at the EVERGREEN website IF you don't like what you see on the tanker spraying videol.
I think we’ve dealt with this..

As I said you are talking about weather formations and we are talking about CHEMTRAILS. They are completely different and this thread is getting very old since as I said from my first post in this thread I am not trying to convince you of anything BUT
Im sorry you feel this way. Yes I have persistently attempted to explain how these trails are a product of combustion, and really its nature or how weather is formed. Contrails and clouds form the same way. Its depends on the condition of the atmosphere.

I’ve also said elsewhere that aircraft have no capability to spray anything, other than occasionally the water contents from the galleys and fowl water from the toilets. They don’t do this normally but just like your home an overflow valve does exist. Nothing else is sprayed from aircraft ever.( I do also exclude fuel dumping, lets not split hairs)

Chemtrails are a complete myth.


You telling people out and out nonsense that it's not possible to spray from jets is getting to be old.
Indeed I am.

But Im not talking about crop dusters or those aircraft that may be involved in oil suppression or firefighting. In reality very few of these specialist aircraft exist.

IF you want to talk about the weather and cloud formation this is not the thread. This is about chemtrails.

Indeed, actually I would argue that it’s about deception. Clancy..


The facts have been given and you just have not looked at them or you have ignored them.
No unfortunately you have been deceived. This is what makes me annoyed and this is why Im correcting this misconception on the forum for everyone’s benefit based on my professional knowledge and experience.

I have consistently asked for the evidence. It doesn’t exist.

A potato is a potato. A contrail is a contrail. You don’t suddenly look at the potato and say it’s a carrot do you.

What you are doing and calling evidence is posting up images of potatoes and saying they are carrots. Please don’t feel Im being flippant, Im not but we need to deal with basic facts don’t we.


IF you did you wouldn't still be saying it's impossible to spray from jets as you have in post #157.
Can we agree that we’ve covered this?

This thread is a waste of time if you are talking about weather and cloud formation and not chemtrails.

I have been employed for thirty four years in the aviation industry Chancy and have yet to see a chemtrail…


Everyone on the planet has seen a contrail but apparently from what you are saying the technology is not there to spray chemtrails.
No. Everyone on the planet knows these are jet trails . Criminals(the ptb) have messed up your mind unfortunately and so you are in my view a victim of all this nonsense. Im trying to make you aware of this, and have provided scientific facts rather than the mumbo jumbo.

It's time to look at my posts....................maybe then you will see that it has nothing to do with contrails. It has everything to do with spraying chemicals from jets.
I have studied all your posts Chancy, if I failed to respond to a post earlier I do apologise, but have taken time to reply to this one.

I need to caution you, or perhaps bring to your attention that what you see in the skies isn’t going to change.

Aircraft power output has increased four and five fold over the last thirty years and this has been the cause of these bigger trails.

I have attempted to explain this above in text and photographs showing the actual size of these engines. Now Clancy, the bad news is that these are not going to be going away, an so we have to do something about this don’t we.

That is what Im attempting to do. I don’t have to, I could go swimming or walk the dog, but actually we have a problem with these scoundrels and so this my contribution in exposing these crooks you could say.

Therefore.

You don’t believe in the monster under the bed do you, so stop believing this. Dont be a victim. They are controlling you, dont sign up for it...

If you have a sore throat or chest, tummy upset, don’t put it down to chemtrail, the government aren’t spraying a human population. Something is wrong so go and see a doctor essentially you are systemically upset and he/she will treat you. DON’T mention chemtrails (im serious) or he/she may diagnose the problem differently. That wouldn’t be good would it.

If the trees or hedge are dying, something is wrong, it's not chemtrails. Call the horticulturist and ask him what’s wrong with the trees. An answer and solution will be provided and the tree will return to good health.

Take Care…

PS pm me if you want...

[chancy]

A potato is a potato. A contrail is a contrail. You don’t suddenly look at the potato and say it’s a carrot do you.

Hello Fred259: It's interesting that you are trying to tell everyone including myself that I am being deceived BUT you are telling everyone on this forum and who looks at this forum that a contrail is a CHEMTRAIL. They are competely different and it is like talking about a potato to a carrot. It's NOT "a potato is a potato" scenario.
As I told you I am not trying to convince you that there are CHEMTRAILS because you have your opinion just as I and all the others that know there are CHEMTRAILS are saying a "potato is a carrot" from your perspective.

It's interesting how someone with so much experience is CLOSED MINDED. I thought this forum was for people that are OPEN MINDED and want to look at other perspectives and try to find out the truth? It appears that even I was wrong about that!
I could tell you hundreds of examples of perspectives that I believe are wrong and you could do the same BUT when it comes right down to it there are is always truth and always deception. Just so happens you are trying to tell me that I am deceived because I have seen CHEMTRAILS and know that it's possible to spray chemicals from jets. Well Fred259 just as you won't change your mind...I will not change my mind since I have seen and experience CHEMTRAILS first hand. No wonder this thread is getting old....Fred259 you have never seen a CHEMTRAIL. I have never seen a albino rhino. That doesn't mean there isn't one.

Just because you tell me with conviction there is not CHEMTRAILS doesn't mean there isn't any. Sounds like the mainstream news and government talking....."If I say it's so then it is so"! I don't buy this reasoning.

Remember I am not trying to convince you since only you can convince yourself. Just remember when you have 6 jet aircraft making criss crosses in the air they must be playing tick tack toe....Right?!?! From a nice brilliant clear blue sky to a cloudy sky in less than an hour as soon as these jets finish their tick tack toe game. What a game!
Remember someone is paying for this extremely huge game of tick tack toe everyday!! Ah shucks it's the tax payer! No corporation would be stupid enough to spend money playing tick tack toe most days in the air. I know Fred259 you are going to tell me again this is normal weather occurrences and these jets are just pleasure aircraft enjoying a nice game of tick tack toe! I say WRONG!!!
Regards,
Chancy

[Fred259]

Hello Fred259: It's interesting that you are trying to tell everyone including myself that I am being deceived BUT you are telling everyone on this forum and who looks at this forum that a contrail is a CHEMTRAIL.
No. I am not saying anything of the sort.

What I am saying is that what comes out of the rear of an engine is essentially water, which will form a contrail, should the atmospheric conditions in the atmosphere permit.

I am also saying that aircraft have no means or ability to spray substances from high altitude. Therefore any trails that you may see in the skies are perfectly normal. Don’t worry about them.


They are competely different and it is like talking about a potato to a carrot. It's NOT "a potato is a potato" scenario.
As I told you I am not trying to convince you that there are CHEMTRAILS because you have your opinion just as I and all the others that know there are CHEMTRAILS are saying a "potato is a carrot" from your perspective.

Indeed they are. I agree,

What you think is a chemtrail has probably come form an engine which is producing circa 80,000lbs of trust, thus you have classed this trail as a chemtrail in your mind.

What you say is a contrail has probably come from an aircraft producing 20,000lbs of thrust.

The two are both the same. Perhaps this is where the confusion exists.


It's interesting how someone with so much experience is CLOSED MINDED. I thought this forum was for people that are OPEN MINDED and want to look at other perspectives and try to find out the truth? It appears that even I was wrong about that!
Your not wrong, your quite right to question things. I respect you for that however Chancy it’s not possible to bend a steel bar regardless how open minded you may be…


I could tell you hundreds of examples of perspectives that I believe are wrong and you could do the same BUT when it comes right down to it there are is always truth and always deception. Just so happens you are trying to tell me that I am deceived because I have seen CHEMTRAILS and know that it's possible to spray chemicals from jets.
We discussed in #132 why this is not even remotely possible from an engineering prospective. I suggest you go over that post again.

Further at 18.00GMT 12.00 EST today something like 60,000 aircraft are operating at the very very least in Europe and the US. If you think that any of these aircraft are engaged in spraying an innocent human population then if it were happenings as I suggested in post132 it would be tantamount to an act of war and the military would have the situation in hand.


Well Fred259 just as you won't change your mind...I will not change my mind since I have seen and experience CHEMTRAILS first hand.

Have you… Where?


No wonder this thread is getting old....Fred259 you have never seen a CHEMTRAIL. I have never seen a albino rhino. That doesn't mean there isn't one.
Its all getting rather silly Chancy…


Just because you tell me with conviction there is not CHEMTRAILS doesn't mean there isn't any.
As above.

Sounds like the mainstream news and government talking....."If I say it's so then it is so"! I don't buy this reasoning.
Lol… lets leave the media out of this. Engineering science is sound and has proven to be so over many decades.

Sometimes Chancy you have to put your trust in others,( but not necessarily me), however I do wonder when you go to the dentist and she gives you an anesthetic do you question the dentist on the quality of the anesthetic or what she is doing?


Remember I am not trying to convince you since only you can convince yourself. Just remember when you have 6 jet aircraft making criss crosses in the air they must be playing tick tack toe....Right?!?! From a nice brilliant clear blue sky to a cloudy sky in less than an hour as soon as these jets finish their tick tack toe game. What a game!

This tic tak toe expression is not used in the UK so it tells me you are in the US, I would even go as far and say East Coast Unites States. Its midday traffic tic tak toeing north south and out to the west.

I explained lateral separation in post 127.The video provides an explanation of how it’s done.


Remember someone is paying for this extremely huge game of tick tack toe everyday!! Ah shucks it's the tax payer! No corporation would be stupid enough to spend money playing tick tack toe most days in the air.
I think you will find they are just normal everyday airlines Clancy. If you click on this link some but not all of the flights are included. Put your mouse over the aircraft and it will give you the flight number and where it’s going.

http://planefinder.net/


I know Fred259 you are going to tell me again this is normal weather occurrences and these jets are just pleasure aircraft enjoying a nice game of tick tack toe! I say WRONG!!!
Yes I would agree. The word normal doesn’t apply to the weather occurrences as you put it.

It’s nothing to do with the weather it relates to humidity and temperature. Both are changing constantly. Normality doesn’t apply, its nature my friend.

Don’t worry about them Clancy they are doing no harm…

[DoubleHelix]

It appears Fred259 has got an answer for everything we seem to throw at him! I value your dedication and input Fred, there are a lot of misconceptions about this phenomenon.

I do however believe that Chemtrails exist.. but ill put my personal opinion aside.

I'd like to take this opportunity to ask if there's anybody on this forum that can come up with with some actual evidence, undeniable proof or witness testimonies that stand up to scrutiny!

Until then we'll continue to go round in circles folks.

[gigha]

All i know is that every day since i joined Avalon i drive to work looking at the sky.
Not just looking for chemtrails or contrails, still don't know what to believe either.
But Fred259 is very convincing in his way. Thanks all. xx gigha

[chancy]

[QUOTE]Hello Fred259: It's interesting that you are trying to tell everyone including myself that I am being deceived BUT you are telling everyone on this forum and who looks at this forum that a contrail is a CHEMTRAIL.
No. I am not saying anything of the sort.
What I am saying is that what comes out of the rear of an engine is essentially water, which will form a contrail, should the atmospheric conditions in the atmosphere permit.
I am also saying that aircraft have no means or ability to spray substances from high altitude. Therefore any trails that you may see in the skies are perfectly normal. Don’t worry about them.

Actually you are doing this in almost every post you have typed in this thread. You are doing this by saying that there is no such thing as chemtrails. Since I say there is CHEMTRAILS you are telling everyone that there are no chemtrails. Once you ad both arguments together a CHEMTRAIL IS A CONTRAIL WHICH HAPPENS TO HAVE CHEMICAL MIXED WITH IT. See how they are one in the same but not all jets as you and I know are spraying chemicals with their contrails. There are jets spraying CHEMTRAILS which make them one in the same on those particular jets.






The two are both the same. Perhaps this is where the confusion exists.

Fred259 I have to agree with you on this point because on the jets spraying chemicals they are both the same. There is NO CONFUSION AT ALL. You just proved that you know what I am talking about!




[QUOTE]It's interesting how someone with so much experience is CLOSED MINDED. I thought this forum was for people that are OPEN MINDED and want to look at other perspectives and try to find out the truth? It appears that even I was wrong about that!
Your not wrong, your quite right to question things. I respect you for that however Chancy it’s not possible to bend a steel bar regardless how open minded you may be…

Actually Fred259 questioning things is important for everyone on this planet unfortunately the majority just go about life and accept everything. When gas goes up they just smile and say"I'm glad the price went up so we can still drive!" I say excellent for all these people. You are trying to act dumb to me now Fred259 and I think it's time for you to act your age. It is possible to bend a steel bar and I do it all the time. I take a torch and heat it and then can bend any size of bar I choose. IF I don't want to use heat I use a bending machine. See Fred259 your analogy is getting annoying.





I could tell you hundreds of examples of perspectives that I believe are wrong and you could do the same BUT when it comes right down to it there are is always truth and always deception. Just so happens you are trying to tell me that I am deceived because I have seen CHEMTRAILS and know that it's possible to spray chemicals from jets.
We discussed in #132 why this is not even remotely possible from an engineering prospective. I suggest you go over that post again.

From your point of view. From the posts that I gave you in this thread I already proved my point. I know you never read them! I can tell by your answers. Remember I am not trying to convince you that CHEMTRAILS are REAL. I already know they are and so do hundreds of thousands of other people. It's people like yourself that are trying to change my mind and your science is flawed in the sense that you are talking about contrails with no chemicals and I am talking about contrails with chemicals injected into them that makes CHEMTRAILS. By the way it is possible to spray chemicals from a jet. You just never read my posts! Caught you again sluffing Fred259.





Well Fred259 just as you won't change your mind...I will not change my mind since I have seen and experience CHEMTRAILS first hand.

Have you… Where?

Well Fred259 if you had read my posts you would know WHERE!?!?!
It's amazing that I have to read all your posts that are quite frankly getting boring and you didn't read mine which possibly would be boring to you! Remember I am not trying to change your mind!
I find it getting really offensive that you expect everyone including myself to read your post and you never have the respect to read mine. Again to answer your question about where. In Canada and the US. 6 jets playing tick tack toe over Great Falls. It's really too bad I didn't have a camera since they were directly about me going past and it was quite amazing for a guy who used to not believe this type of thing could even remotely be possible. I can tell you that it is possible and for what reason I cannot tell you BUT it is happening!




No wonder this thread is getting old....Fred259 you have never seen a CHEMTRAIL. I have never seen a albino rhino. That doesn't mean there isn't one.
Its all getting rather silly Chancy…

Fred259 I have been telling you the same thing since I first wrote in this thread! Until you actually see a chemtrail then how can you say I am lying?!?! How can you actually tell other people that they are lunatics for believing in CHEMTRAILS when you don't even know anything about CHEMTRAILS since you have never seen even one?
To be an expert you need to know both sides of the story and Fred259 you only know one side of the story and that's about contrails. Remember the albino rhino.....until I see an albino rhino I have to say it's possible but I just haven't seen one yet.....





Just because you tell me with conviction there is not CHEMTRAILS doesn't mean there isn't any.
As above.

Sounds like the mainstream news and government talking....."If I say it's so then it is so"! I don't buy this reasoning.
Lol… lets leave the media out of this. Engineering science is sound and has proven to be so over many decades.
Sometimes Chancy you have to put your trust in others,( but not necessarily me), however I do wonder when you go to the dentist and she gives you an anesthetic do you question the dentist on the quality of the anesthetic or what she is doing?

Fred259 you should take your own advice and put your trust in others! See it works both ways! I wasn't a believer in CHEMTRAILS but after being sceptical while doing the research I became a believer. Actually when I go to the dentist it's a HE and no they do no use anesthetic. However enough about me remember we are talking about not trying to get you to be a believer in CHEMTRAILS. You have been very outspoken on one side of the fence. Unfortunately you have admitted very eloquently that you have no knowledge of CHEMTRAILS.therefore you cannot actually talk about them with any authority. As for myself I have a very good knowledge of contrails and CHEMTRAILS. I guess that makes me an authority on them since I know both sciences.





Remember I am not trying to convince you since only you can convince yourself. Just remember when you have 6 jet aircraft making criss crosses in the air they must be playing tick tack toe....Right?!?! From a nice brilliant clear blue sky to a cloudy sky in less than an hour as soon as these jets finish their tick tack toe game. What a game!

This tic tak toe expression is not used in the UK so it tells me you are in the US, I would even go as far and say East Coast Unites States. Its midday traffic tic tak toeing north south and out to the west.

IT's really quite amazing when you openingly admit that you are full of it! How I know this is because I have read every word you have written here where you have NOT read probably nothing of mine. I am NOT IN THE US and I am NOT ON THE EAST COAST. IF you would have read my posts you would already know this!
Tic tac toe is a game and I don't think you would like it! It's being played in the skies of North America everyday with consequences that we as North Americans hopefully won't find out for a long long time.





I know Fred259 you are going to tell me again this is normal weather occurrences and these jets are just pleasure aircraft enjoying a nice game of tick tack toe! I say WRONG!!!
Yes I would agree. The word normal doesn’t apply to the weather occurrences as you put it.
It’s nothing to do with the weather it relates to humidity and temperature. Both are changing constantly. Normality doesn’t apply, its nature my friend.
Don’t worry about them Clancy they are doing no harm…


Fred259 CHEMTRAILS are NOT NORMAL. Why do you think we are having this conversation. I really have NO INTEREST in talking to a closed minded person such as yourself since I am way too busy for that. Remember I am not trying to convince you that CHEMTRAILS ARE REAL
Regards,
chancy

[Fred259]

[QUOTE=Fred259;217093][QUOTE=chancy;217047]

[QUOTE][QUOTE]Hello Fred259:
Actually you are doing this in almost every post you have typed in this thread.
What I am doing is sharing my knowledge and experience on this subject.Im glad you think it’s consistent. Further I have provided references so you to can be informed. Is that not what Avalon is about?

You are doing this by saying that there is no such thing as chemtrails.
Yes, Im saying it’s an attack on the truth and alternative media to make those who are alternative thinkers if I can put it like that look stupid.

Those responsible for this abomination control the media, but they have no control over forums like this and consequently they just feed the whole alternative movement with rubbish.


Since I say there is CHEMTRAILS you are telling everyone that there are no chemtrails. . See how they are one in the same but not all jets as you and I know are spraying chemicals with their contrails.

No they are not one in the same.

We have dealt with Chancy.

We discussed that if the atmosphere at 28,000 feet has 80% relative humidity no contrail will form. Immediately above at 30,000 feet another aircraft is flying and I mean just that immediately above, but NOW the atmosphere has 100% relative humidity a contrail WILL form.

If two aircraft are flying at 30,000feet both where the relative humidity is 100% both will produce contrails. If one contrail is bigger than the other, you scratch your head Chancy and say Ah,….now that’s because one is chemtrailing and the other isn’t. This is where they are tricking you. Don’t be tricked.

In reality I think you will find that the first contrail will perhaps be from a smaller aircrafts lets say a B737 with 25,000lb thrust engines for example and the second contrail will be from a larger aircraft perhaps a B777 with 115,000lb thrust engines.

Two B737 with 25,000lb engines means two small contrails
Two B777 with 115,000lb engines means two large contrails.(that you call chemtrails)

Small aircraft with small engines and a Large aircraft with large engines mix together all day everyday. You think that the smaller contrails are normal, and the large contrails aren’t, so they must be chemtrails. This is wrong. They are both contrails, one big one small.

It must be obvious that if you increase the power four fold the contrail is going to be four times bigger..


Once you ad both arguments together a CHEMTRAIL IS A CONTRAIL WHICH HAPPENS TO HAVE CHEMICAL MIXED WITH IT

No. The problem is you refuse to accept that nature science and the fragile state of the atmosphere is key. You point blankly just ignore this, and therefore this is the problem.

With that out of the way in your mind you now fabricate all manner of half stories so that it fits your world. This is what these criminals have done to you, which is why I call you a victim. It’s not your fault.

Turning to your point. Its impossible Chancy for chemicals to be mixed with contrails. First if this where happening the crew would know and you just have to accept that as fact.

Secondly the temperatures in the engine are close to 2,000degreesC, pressures at 150lbs/sq inch and the gas flow around 2,500 feet per second or 1,480mph twice the speed of a rifle bullet. Its quite impossible for any of what you suggest to happen.

In think its time now Chancy for you to go to your local public library and obtain a book on meteorology. Study up how clouds are formed, and with this knowledge you will then understand how contrails are formed. If on the other hand you refuse to accept that nature plays a critical role then you will remain confused. I strongly urge you to do this.

In the meantime don’t worry Chancy, I do agree with you our government’s aren’t all wonderful but equally its importance to keep things in prospective.

[chancy]

Once you ad both arguments together a CHEMTRAIL IS A CONTRAIL WHICH HAPPENS TO HAVE CHEMICAL MIXED WITH IT

No. The problem is you refuse to accept that nature science and the fragile state of the atmosphere is key. You point blankly just ignore this, and therefore this is the problem.
With that out of the way in your mind you now fabricate all manner of half stories so that it fits your world. This is what these criminals have done to you, which is why I call you a victim. It’s not your fault.
Turning to your point. Its impossible Chancy for chemicals to be mixed with contrails. First if this where happening the crew would know and you just have to accept that as fact.

Fred259, Still pushing the weather eh? Oh ya you are NOT talking about the weather and the atmosphere....Everytime you write your story you tell me the same thing. I am sure you never read or looked at my posts. If you had you would have a much better understanding of CHEMTRAILS.
By the way I have not refuted any science. I am a believer in science and you just continually put words in my mouth for me. Fred259 you really don't have to do that....I am very good at speaking myself! As for the atmosphere you have told me quite a few times it's NOT about the atmosphere and or weather. I say it is definitely about the atmosphere and weather.....
If you would have read my posts you would have seen it is NOT IMPOSSIBLE TO MIX CHEMICALS WITH CONTRAILS. From the first time I answered your thread I knew you had no idea about what we are talking about. You continually prove it by each post. Fred259 it's time to stop the insults and realize that you don't know what you are talking about when it comes to CHEMTRAILS for they are REAL and no one has deceived me and the ptb did not manipulate me. I personally think they have gotten to yourself by your rediculous claims to know that CHEMTRAILS are not happening.
I'm not sure whether your expertise is weather or aircraft. ?? What I am sure of it that you are going around in circles and therefore you could almost make a good CHEMTRAIL pilot for they go back and forth in the early hours of the morning.
To answer you questions from the above post I do believe that the crew does know they are spraying some form of chemical(s). I do believe they are getting paid extremely well for their service so why not do it?!




In think its time now Chancy for you to go to your local public library and obtain a book on meteorology. Study up how clouds are formed, and with this knowledge you will then understand how contrails are formed. If on the other hand you refuse to accept that nature plays a critical role then you will remain confused. I strongly urge you to do this.

Fred259 why would you lead me to the public library with the assumption that I don't know about weather and the atmoshere?!?! Remember you have never read any of my posts from the assumptions that you make about me! I can tell you I know as much about this subject as you do and more since I also know about CHEMTRAILS which you refute to be a figment of everyones imaginations.
Remember I am not trying to convince you that CHEMTRAILS ARE REAL!
Regards,
chancy
PS It's time you should actually go back and read my posts. They may help you to understand the concept of CHEMTRAILS.

[blufire]

I deleted this post . . . because what's the point.

[Lefty Dave]

john what they want to do is turn you into a moron by feeding you all this rubbish.

You know don’t you that some real nasty bastards exist in this world. You only need to go down to london and visit the tavistock institute and see some of the dark practices that emanate from that organisation.

The next concept you must accept is that they are trying to dumb you down. Clearly this is not something that anyone would want. That being the case its best you treat most things you read and listen to on the web as highly suspect.

If you do this your mind and understanding will be free from those who seek to control you. To support this and the content of this thread i did this afternoon post up the hm government commons select committee report into geo engineering. It’s featured one above in post five.

The document clearly states that the committee is looking at all geoengineering options and that above all the public would be consulted and would have input into the outcome. It’s just a consultative document.

No decision has been made and probably given the length of time these things take will be in the order eight to ten years before any decision is made. That being the case its not really possible is it that they were geoengineering or chemtrailing over the ne of england today.

So what was the problem today. Look at the weather chart and you will see that high pressure dominates the whole of the uk and most of continental europe at this time and this is the reason these jet trails are in the skies.

In your post you wonder if the weather will make a turn for the worst, no they will be gone by 22.00 tonight and you will see the stars all night. It will be the same tomorrow and perhaps for a week or so. When the high pressure system moves the atmosphere will change and you won’t see any trails just as it was last week.

John aircraft have no means whatsoever of spraying chemicals from the air, so please stop believing this.

I encourage you to look into this rather than believing everything you read on websites. If you choose not to sadly you are a victim of deception from the criminals in tavistock square.

some people just cant handle the truth

[THIRDEYE]

fred with no disrespect,i totally dis agree with you on the chemtrails,ive wacthed the organite chembusters in action ,my point is how can organite dissapate a chemtrail and not com trail,just food for thought...love light and abundance fred29....thirdeye....

[ace]

It matters not to me if they believe it or not. I just don’t like to see people being fooled especially by the criminals…

By the amount of time and effort you are dedicating trying to convince the people here
that chem trails do not exist, I would say your statement above is wrong.

Regards
Ace

[observer]

It appears Fred259 has got an answer for everything we seem to throw at him! I value your dedication and input Fred, there are a lot of misconceptions about this phenomenon.

I do however believe that Chemtrails exist.. but ill put my personal opinion aside.

I'd like to take this opportunity to ask if there's anybody on this forum that can come up with with some actual evidence, undeniable proof or witness testimonies that stand up to scrutiny!

Until then we'll continue to go round in circles folks.

DoubleHelix,

Aside from the evidence I posted in the original thread (before the threads were separated) and found at the link posted in this comment:

[....snip]

Here is the most telling evidence of all. This is a link to the Library of Congress printing of House Bill number H.R. 2977. Please take note of Section 7, 2(B)(ii):
http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c107:H.R.2977.IH:

I welcome an explanation as to why a bill introduced into the House of Representatives of the United States mentions CHEMTRAILS as a weapon, if (in fact) there is no such 'weapon' existing.

This is the 'smoking gun'.... so to speak

[Kerrigan]

I'd like to add my experiences with what I believe is chemtrails.

I work in an 10th floor office, with windows all around me. Looking outside is beautiful, I see from my desk the Montréal stadium and the magnificent Mount Royal. On sunny days, I've been really concern by lingering trails in the skies.

There is a flying road of commercial planes that passes right by window. All the commercial planes leave no trails, or trails that linger max 1min. They always passes by the same flying road.

However, there are other types of planes, that looks like commercial planes, except they are all white. Their flying road is irregular, creating X and parallel lines of lingering trails. Those trails leave a thick, white cloud that does not disperse. I see them from my desk, and observe what they become with time.

After 2 hours, the trail is larger, less thick, and comes down in altitude. The more it falls, the more foggy it looks. It seems to suspend in the air, gradually enlarging with time. And after 4 hours, the trails are not visible, only a curtain of foggy, gray covers the sky, at low altitude.

The two pass days, Thursday and Friday have been particularly intense. I've seen white planes, with no trails, and suddenly, out of nowhere, they start creating lingering trails.

I have read this thread trying to convince myself that these are normal trails. When Fred said that humidity is a big factor to consider, I went and check it for Montréal yesterday.


At or close to 100% relative humidity at altitude cloud and contrails will form.

For both days, the humidity was 40% and less... the sky was clear in the morning around 8, and at 2pm, it was almost completely and uniformly gray, except small spots. I am in a learning process, I might be wrong, of course, but...

I still do believe that chemtrails exist and that Montreal is spread regularly.

[Fred259]

[QUOTE=Fred259;218832][QUOTE=Fred259;218821][QUOTE][QUOTE=blufire;218736]Please read my post #43 in this thread and I also have several posts in Icecold’s thread on chemtrails.
I have seen:

Clear blue skies turn into complete overcast skies from either “grid pattern” sprays or on windy days perfectly spaced parallel sprays blend together causing complete overcast sky. This happens within a matter of a couple hours. I have sat outside and watched the complete procedure. Start to finish . . . . there is no denying what is happening. Contrails DO NOT or have they ever done this.
Fine. I don’t agree, but respect your point of view.

You obviously haven’t read any of the documents I enclosed…but no worries.

I have watched the “spray” stop as the plane turns and lines up for the next pass and I have watched as that plane gets into position the spray or trail resumes.

Again. I explained that in details if you recall.

There have been at least three occasions that I have witnessed the “debris” that has fallen from the “chemtrail clouds”. All three occasions the wind was fairly still and they had to spray in the grid pattern and the debris was able to settle all over my equipment, outbuildings and even ponds.

Yes I remember your post. You said you had witnessed this happening on three occasions over four years.

If you remember I said that this was due to the effects of the Hadley Cell, and I did on at least two occasion go to Google and find an example of this and posted it up with an explanation for your exclusive benefit. It only occurs under intense high pressure.

You seem to think its all rubbish despite the Wicki and NASA documents explaining the effects of Hadley Cell circulation. What more can I do?

I think they spray different components at different times. Sometimes the “blended clouds” look wispy and somewhat thin and other times they are thick and almost have a “grayish cotton ball” look.

I have seen the debris or dust . . . . . swept some up and examined it.

We dealt with all this Blufire. Again I provided the documents and my own covering explanation, if you choose not to believe it I understand.

I can’t say I have become ill or any of my livestock.

Good Blufire, at least we agree on that. I say again they are just contrails or ice crystals so yes they wont damage your health.


I have witnessed though my crops not growing well and especially heirloom and non-gmo plants. I have most definitely had to correct the ph balance and mineral levels in my soils more often . . . sometimes a couple of times in the same growing season Related?? Can’t really say, but common sense says “something” is causing these immediate soil problems and the only thing that is different is the spraying.

Ahh, now this is not good, because now something is damaging your crops, and yields will be down. With the yields down the price will go down won’t it.

You have two choices. You can post up here and try and make me look a fool or you can listen up.

I have provided you with all the information required to determine that what you see in the skies over Kansas is indeed harmless. You point blank refuse to accept this.

Despite all the information provided, you still insist that these trails are chemtrails and they may be damaging your crops. Defiantly not. Ice crystals at 36,000 don’t damage crops. Under the circumstances call your local Agri-chemist or specialist and ask them why it’s been necessary to correct the ph balance and mineral levels. Something is wrong Blufire that you put down to chemtrails. Believe me darling its not. So please just call the specialist and they will discuss your ph problems. Hopefully they will also provide you with a solution. When all is well and the yields are up again maybe you might just take a look at those documents I sent.

And fred before you say it is “crop dusting” let me nip that one in the bud right now. When they spray crops for weeds (herbicides) or pests (pesticide) . . .. it STINKS. I just a couple days ago had a few words with the county agent because of spraying in the wheat fields not far from my organic fields. The stuff floated right on over onto my land.

I agree it stinks, Ive seen crop dusters working in Africa.

Many times as I sit and watch the procedure I keep watching the western to south western skyline which is where our weather comes from and these “overcast skies” are ONLY where the planes have sprayed.

We discussed this Blufire.

This makes me sad, overcast skies are ONLY where planes have sprayed you say.

I agree aircraft flying east west or routing into Denver will cause this, you insist its spraying, but what can I say. Have you ever considered that overcast skies from the SW may be due to weather fronts, you did say that’s where the weather comes from, which Yes I would agree with. I think you will find that’s what they are.

I do agree though and we discussed this that if the atmospheric conditions are such by mid afternoon your skies will be covered.

[QUOTE]Fred has methodically torn my posts to shreds and given these long drawn out, long winded explanations on why I must be totally insane on what I have personally witnessed and experienced.

I think you are being a bit naughty now Blufire, Im not tearing your post to shreds or calling you insane. I’m sharing with you my professional knowledge and experience, and over a few posts have also provided you with the material for you to look into this.

It makes no difference to me, but it would seem it does with you given you now say your yields are down. You have the information make of it as you will.

These posts are mostly from googled, cut and pasted unrelated, subterfuge.

Yes, I have used all available resources available to me, what’s wrong with that. I don’t carry an image of the Hadley cell around in my back pocket so if I can find a similar image on the Internet that helps explain things better what’s wrong with that.( Remember the document came from NASA, but No No No they are wrong as well I suppose)

Dust and sand from New Mexico my steadily growing ass.

Oh dear Blufire… come on now that's not very ladylike….I have to tell you that your going to be eating a very big humble pie,but it dosnt bother me, provided we can get to the bottom of your concerns that’s all that matters.


7404

Kansas is 37N to 40N. Can you not see how this will reach you in Kansas. I know the diagram says 30N, but honestly that’s only 420 miles. This is your problem darling…this is what’s causing the sand and dust on the machinery….

LOOK at the left hand corner in the above picture, what does it say? Cool dry air Descending right onto your farm!!! Where from? Mexico, Panama, the equator ....it explains it in the diagram Bluefire, do you seriously think I'm making this up!


7405

Hadley Cell
Situated between the equator and 30 degrees North.The problems you are experiencing have without question come from the Hadley cell and the circular flow of air under intense high pressure. Here are the documents one final time. Here is also the Diagram that (yes I goggled) so you can follow it through and see how this air circulates.

I also suggested you contact your local university perhaps, they might be able to reassure you. Obviously you didn’t do that. So just for you here are the details of the people who will defiantly be able to help you, I suggest you write to them and explain the problem. You can tell them you have this goof ass who says it’s the “Hadley Cell” and see what they say. Write to

NOAA/ National Weather Service,
5200 Auth Road,
Camp Springs,
Maryland 20746


These documents explain Hadley Cell. If you read them they explain the circulation of air around the Intertropical convergence zone( ITCZ)

http://whyfiles.org/174earth_observe/4.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hadley_cell

http://mynasadata.larc.nasa.gov/glossary.php?&word=Hadley%20Cell

PS. YOU said you watched the weather from the South West…. This is it.Kansas is really part of the ITCZ. It doesn’t just stop dead at 30N its nature, it comes and goes…..


Fred is the one who is fear based and is in full blown denial. It is difficult especially with someone as controlled and methodical and black and white as Fred to see what is bashing you right up side the head. He is not trying to convince us . . . . sadly he is trying to convince himself.

I’m not sure what you mean here Blufire. No I don’t have any fear from these trails. Controlled no this is not happening. I have received a professional training though, maybe you call that controlled. I do agree with you about the black and white, its either happening or its not, so I urge you to read up on the atmosphere and this will explain everything for you.

Yea that Fred is such a bad bad guy, he’s a government agent, works for Rothschild as well… Blufire just as you know your farmland and your businesses like the back of your hand why do you assume that equally I shouldn’t know my business or profession equally as well.. I told you in the pm, following your post that I have been flying for thirty four years eleven years as a navigator in the air force and twenty three years in commercial aviation as a first officer and captain. Just as you know your farm and machinery like the back of your hand please accept that like you I also know my profession like the back of my hand. I’m extending my knowledge with you and the forum.

Let’s wait and see what you get back from NOAA. In the meantime if you read the documents I think you will find that everything I have said and provided you with to be truthful.

It’s kind of important that you reach a conclusion here Blufire because I hate to say that these trails are not going to be going away.

The bottom line is that in your very first post you said that in the past you never believed in those chemtrails but now you do , and this drives home to me that these criminals who seek to control our minds use very powerful methods. They have changed your way of thinking, so I would class you as a victim.

Take Care..

[Carmody]

I've directly witnessed dumbbell sprayers and what appears to be a holographic cover on them.

My photographs did not agree with the visuals. Visually they were boeing, etc. Eyeball said ---the closest one was a dumbbell sprayer. ...it was mothering HUGE. And close.

The images were taken and the chemtrails were VERY low in the sky, on a hot summer day. 5000 ft. Max. They stayed for hours.

I've also had direct experience with a seemingly PERSONALLY delivered chemtrail. (general note:long story, not fit for this forum- and no I won't tell you if you ask in a PM)

I heard no aircraft and it was right over my house, the only house in the area..AND the chemtrail was obviously very low in the sky... two hours later it was still there. slowly dispersing.

So don't talk to me about them being the result of contrails, modern craft and modern designs.

Not. A. Freaking. Chance.

[linz2d]

Well Fred259, I think I'm with you on this one, I too am in major doubt about these alleged chemtrails. I think it is only a atmospheric effect, depending on how cold and how much wind it is up there, depends on how long the chemtrails last, its basic high school science. The main two chemicals that are the supposed to be the evidence for chemtrails are Aluminium and Barium. Now my father used to work in the aluminium industry and I remember him saying that aluminium is the most abundant metal on this earth and you can find it almost everywhere, which got me thinking if it so abundant, then that must mean that we can find it in the the air and if we can find it in the air then that means we can find it rain water. Luckily I found a site that states this fact.

World Health Organisation; Aluminium in drinking water. (http://www.who.int/water_sanitation_health/dwq/wsh0304_53/en/index4.html)

Aluminium in its natural particle state is considered harmless to humans(again we find it everywhere), in fact most antiperspirants use aluminium as key ingredient. However aluminium dust(which looks like a dark silver powder) is another story and this can cause lung damage.

As for Barium, this blog expalins a reason why it was found in that test http://contrailscience.com/barium-chemtrails/

However I will not deny that there is cloud seeding programs happening and crop spraying.

[ThePythonicCow]

Let me give you an example of how this debate looks to me, by using an analogy with something I know.

I have been a professional in the computer business, in one form or another, since the early 1970's. I have worked with an amazing variety of hardware and software, and conceived, designed, created, built, owned, operated and maintained quite a bit of hardware and software myself.

I can honestly say I have never seen a position tracking location device or program. I have never seen a mechanism that (to my certain knowledge) tracks a persons day-by-day, hour-by-hour movements over time. I am willing to believe that there are specialized ways of doing this, such as Predator drones, GPS locators that could be surreptitiously attached to my car, and private detectives that could be hired to sneak around and follow my daily activity. There may well even be a satellite overhead that can identify and track the position of my old car, anytime it is visible from the sky. But these are special purpose and in limited use; they are too costly for tracking millions of people.

So far what I have written is (more or less) true.

Now lets say I become convinced that the claims that some smart phones (e.g. the iPhone) can track the movements over a long time of millions of people are a GIANT HOAX, that those claims are FEAR MONGERING, intended to further weaken and confuse us, and to make anyone who falls for the hoax look like a fool to the average person, thus discrediting in the eyes of most people any such websites, such as Project Avalon, that traffic in such (in my view) NONSENSE.

I could become a member of such a website, and proceed to actively rebut any poster claiming that their iPhone pr other smart phone was tracking them. I could dump reams of material such as computer manuals and tutorials onto such threads, explaining the inner workings of computers on which I have become an expert over time. If someone posted a picture of the inside of their iPhone with an arrow pointing to something they said was the "tracking chip", I could patiently explain, with parts lists and circuit diagrams, that no, that was the hand held orientation sensor that told the phone when to flip the video image sideways. I could assert (truthfully!) that I have NEVER seen any such tracking in a widely used consumer product.

I could respond at great length to any thread or post claiming otherwise. When my disdain for anyone "foolish" enough to buy into this HOAX leaked out, I could deny that I was casting any personal aspersions and insist that I was only providing the benefit of my personal expertise.

To "prove" my credibility, I could comment favorably on some other well known conspiracies, such as 9/11, agreeing with the view most likely held by others who would likely read my posts that it was an inside job.

I could make it my Mission to:
Beat this HOAX into submission and drive it from the forum I was on, for the good of the forum and of those posters still deluded (in my view) by this HOAX.
Would I convince anyone? Well, perhaps a few, who had a casual interest in the topic and who noticed that I produced ten pounds of evidence for the one pound produced by anyone disagreeing with me, would allow that I seemed to have some good points and plenty of evidence.

What would be the primary affect? People with a genuine interest in discussing whether there is or should be location tracking of millions of people using consumer location devices would soon realize that the forum I was active on was not a good place to have a sensible discussion of the topic, for they would realize that a bull-headed bovine would be all over their case anytime they raised any concern for or evidence of such position tracking on a mass scale.

Would any of the above actions and reactions actually further the discussion of mass scale position tracking? No. Rather it would provide one more example of why finding the "truth" on an Internet forum is a hopeless task. Once again, most people would observe that discussion of some controversial topic has broken down into endless back and forth debates with an undercurrent of disrespect.

If the popular concern that our smart phones are tracking our movements (and perhaps otherwise surveilling us?) really was a HOAX, propagated amongst the fearful sheeple to make them even more afraid, and if I actually did have good inside knowledge that this was the case, then I would have to learn an entirely different way of presenting my case to become an affective whistleblower on this matter.

[greybeard]

Im with Paul
The powers that be dont have to be all powerful you just have to believe they are---- much cheaper.
Gobels said If you tell a lie often enough people will believe it.
Whilst conspiracy forum are of value they naturally attract people who want to find the conspiracy -- the enemy.
So are easy game for those who promote fear by rumor and innuendo.
Its a bit like "I would believe anything of these guys"-- so guess what you do.
There is either evidence that can be agreed by all or there isent.

The scientific mind investigates without pre-judging the end result and looks for fact.

Chris

[dan i el]

Where I live it seems recently that the effects of Rayleigh scattering and supersaturation occur simultaneously and in a matter of one minute to the next and seemingly governed by the clock too. How strange that at almost exactly the same time almost everyday this last week, that clear blue skies are suddenly swathed with so many visible flying craft leaving tracks and X's to rapidly form a artificial Cirrus soup. Super saturation is obviously a nippy bugger.

[mondaze]

a very useful analogy paul, thank you. i have deliberately stayed away from this thread for the very reasons to which you allude. nothing i can say will effect fred's persistant and vehement rebuttals... Fred you are to be commended on your tenacity. I know what i see, and its not white rabbits!

[Fred259]

[QUOTE=Kerrigan;218824]I'd like to add my experiences with what I believe is chemtrails.

I work in an 10th floor office, with windows all around me. Looking outside is beautiful, I see from my desk the Montréal stadium and the magnificent Mount Royal. On sunny days, I've been really concern by lingering trails in the skies.
Read what she types Paul, she is concerned…so don’t you think we have a responsibility to tell her the truth and relieve her concern or do we just leave her to be concerned.
Don’t be concerned Kerrigan, it’s a deception.

There is a flying road of commercial planes that passes right by window. All the commercial planes leave no trails, or trails that linger max 1min. They always passes by the same flying road.

The relative humidity is less than 100%.


However, there are other types of planes, that looks like commercial planes, except they are all white. Their flying road is irregular, creating X and parallel lines of lingering trails. Those trails leave a thick, white cloud that does not disperse. I see them from my desk, and observe what they become with time.

Kerrigan, you are kind of special because Montreal area gets all the inbound and outbound transatlantic traffic together with Canadian flights.

All white aircraft are not really white they just look like that because they have come from perhaps as far as the Middle East 10/12 hrs and have been in a -60C enviroment for all that time. It’s known as cold soaked. It’s a bit like hoar frost…


After 2 hours, the trail is larger, less thick, and comes down in altitude. The more it falls, the more foggy it looks. It seems to suspend in the air, gradually enlarging with time. And after 4 hours, the trails are not visible, only a curtain of foggy, gray covers the sky, at low altitude.Its larger because its dissipating. Eventually it spreads into cirrostratus cloud, spreading over the whole sky… I think this is what you are describing…


The two pass days, Thursday and Friday have been particularly intense. I've seen white planes, with no trails, and suddenly, out of nowhere, they start creating lingering trails. If an aircraft is in cold-60C where the relative humidity is less than 100% it cant turn white. As soon as it moves into an airmass where RH is 100% it will turn white…

Kerrigan, When you leave the house for work on a winters morning after a nights frost what colour is your car?.. White….yea...


I have read this thread trying to convince myself that these are normal trails. When Fred said that humidity is a big factor to consider, I went and check it for Montréal yesterday.

At or close to 100% relative humidity at altitude cloud and contrails will form.

For both days, the humidity was* 40% and less... the sky was clear in the morning around 8, and at 2pm, it was almost completely and uniformly gray, except small spots. I am in a learning process, I might be wrong, of course, but...

* Its where the aircraft is...

Im glad you ask about relative humidity, at least someone has been reading this! It needs to be 100% where the aircraft is.


Montreal gets a log of fog from the St Lawrence. Fog / clouds / contrails will only form when the relative humidity is 100%. It doesn’t matter where it is your back yard or 35,000ft.

Driving along the road in fog relative humidity is 100%, you go into the clear relative humidity is now 80%, back into the fog, relative humidity is again 100% back into the clear its now 80% etc.


I still do believe that chemtrails exist and that Montreal is spread regularly.

I know you do because you have been reading truther sites, and they all copy each other.

This is an attack on the truth movement, by the same people who control the media. They are trying to scare you believing that Air Canada are spraying the people….its shocking if that were happening the military would be taking Harper at gunpoint.! Don’t you think this would effect them also…don’t be scared Kerrigan. What have I to gain by telling lies to you…

[jc71]

I will just add my thoughts to this...

I am in the South East of England. On Thursday 12th May, I was watching the skies with the effects that I have heard described several times here.

I am not and expert on this, I just am going on intuition, but something seems wrong with these trails.

They do seem to come from "white" planes, but I am going to look more closely next time - they could be commercial, but maybe they aren't.

The trails definitely are in patterns, but as Fred says this could be due to planes flying in parallel paths.

The trails turn into "mist" that sinks, that is for sure. And over a period of time, these do turn into a haze that covers the whole blue sky.

I hope there is a natural explanation for this. I suspect there is an explanation that is less natural.

One last thing I would say is that I have noticed that after dry spells of weather, if there is heavy rain, you see a white residue on the roads. Again, this is a new phenomenon to me and looks very strange. It is almost like there is a chemical that is manifesting in the rain and is almost like a detergent with white bubbles.

This is an interesting debate for sure. I am watching it develop with interest and will feed any further information I find in to it.

J

[dan i el]

What Comes Out of a

JET

ENGINE

Freon 11, Freon 12, Methyl Bromide, Dichloromethane,cis-l,2-Dichloroethylene, 1,1,1-Trichloroethane,
Carbon Tetrachloride, Benzene, Trichloroethylene,Toluene, Tetrachloroethene, Ethylbenzene, m,p-Xylene,
o-Xylene, Styrene, 1,3,5-Trimethylbenzene,1,2,4-Trimethylbenzene, o-Dichlorobenzene,
Formaldehyde, Acetaldehyde, Acrolein, Acetone, Propinaldehyde, Crotonaldehyde, Isobutylaldehyde,
Methyl Ethyl Ketone, Benzaldehyde, Veraldehyde, Hexanaldehyde, Ethyl Alcohol, Acetone, Isopropyl
Alcohol, Methyl Ethyl Ketone, Butane, Isopentane, Pentane, Hexane, Butyl Alcohol, Methyl Isobutyl
Ketone, n,n-Dimethyl Acetamide, Dimethyl Disulfide, m-Cresol, 4-Ethyl Toulene, n-Heptaldehyde, Octanal,
1,4-Dioxane, Methyl Phenyl Ketone, Vinyl Acetate, Heptane, Phenol, Octane , Anthracene,
Dimethylnapthalene(isomers), Flouranthene,1-methylaphthalene, 2-methylnaphthalene, Naphthalene,
Phenanthrene, Pyrene , Benzo(a)pyrene, 1-nitropyrene,1,8-dinitropyrene, 1,3-Butadiene, sulfites,
nitrites, nitrogen oxide, nitrogen monoxide, nitrogendioxide, nitrogen trioxide, nitric acid, sulfur
oxides, sulfur dioxide, sulfuric acid, urea, ammonia,carbon monoxide, ozone, particulate matter (PM10,PM2.5)

WHAT SYMPTOMS CAN OCCUR WITH PROLONGED
EXPOSURE TO THESE CHEMICALS?

ASPHYXIATION - ASTHMA - BRAIN CANCER - CANCER CONJUNCTIVE IRRITATION - COUGHING - DELAYEDHYPERSENSITIVITY - DISTORTED PERCEPTIONS - DROWSINESS- DYSPNEA HEADACHE - EEG CHANGES - EMPHYSEMA - FLUSHING - HALLUCINATIONS - HEART DISEASE - HODGKIN´S DISEASE - KIDNEY DAMAGE - LACRIMATION - LIVER DAMAGE - LUNG DISEASE - LUNG STRUCTURE DAMAGE - LUNG TIGHTNESS - LYMPHOMA - MENTAL DEPRESSION - MULTIPLE ORGAN INVOLVEMENT - MUSCLE WEAKNESS - MUTATIONS – MYELOID LEUKEMIA - NASAL EFFECTS - NAUSEA, VOMITING - PULSE
RATE DECREASE - PULMONARY IRRITATION – RESPIRATORY SYSTEM DAMAGE - SKIN AND EYE IRRITATION – SYSTEMIC IRRITATION - TUMORS – WHEEZING

A 1993 US-EPA study of Midway Airport exhibited massive amounts of known carcinogens coming from
aircraft engines in tons-per-year. It also predicted that it produced more than 400 times the allowable
cancer risks to the population than that of a federal Superfind Cleanup site (Toxic Waste Dump), as a direct
result of exposure to these airport toxins.

http://www.noairportcliffe.co.uk/facts.htm

[Fred259]

Well Fred259, I think I'm with you on this one, I too am in major doubt about these alleged chemtrails. I think it is only a atmospheric effect, depending on how cold and how much wind it is up there, depends on how long the chemtrails last, its basic high school science. The main two chemicals that are the supposed to be the evidence for chemtrails are Aluminium and Barium. Now my father used to work in the aluminium industry and I remember him saying that aluminium is the most abundant metal on this earth and you can find it almost everywhere, which got me thinking if it so abundant, then that must mean that we can find it in the the air and if we can find it in the air then that means we can find it rain water. Luckily I found a site that states this fact.

World Health Organisation; Aluminium in drinking water. (http://www.who.int/water_sanitation_health/dwq/wsh0304_53/en/index4.html)

Aluminium in its natural particle state is considered harmless to humans(again we find it everywhere), in fact most antiperspirants use aluminium as key ingredient. However aluminium dust(which looks like a dark silver powder) is another story and this can cause lung damage.

As for Barium, this blog expalins a reason why it was found in that test http://contrailscience.com/barium-chemtrails/

However I will not deny that there is cloud seeding programs happening and crop spraying.

That’s because us Jocks stick together…any more of this nonsense and the Black Watch will be sent in just as they did in the Battle of Ticonderoga 1754…and you thought they were disbanded…

This is where the Aussies and Americans / Canadians have a laugh…

Britain is 600 miles by 200 miles at best… that’s it

7,500 flights per day fly in UK airspace each day. Now if they were chemtrailing the country would be dying wouldn’t it… its quite ridiculous.

Think about it Aussies drive 600 miles for an afternoon picnic!

Europe at least 25,000 movements per day…

US circa 58,000 per day (not including military)

Don’t fall for the New World Order and its trickery…

[linz2d]

What Comes Out of a

JET

ENGINE

Freon 11, Freon 12, Methyl Bromide, Dichloromethane,cis-l,2-Dichloroethylene, 1,1,1-Trichloroethane,
Carbon Tetrachloride, Benzene, Trichloroethylene,Toluene, Tetrachloroethene, Ethylbenzene, m,p-Xylene,
o-Xylene, Styrene, 1,3,5-Trimethylbenzene,1,2,4-Trimethylbenzene, o-Dichlorobenzene,
Formaldehyde, Acetaldehyde, Acrolein, Acetone, Propinaldehyde, Crotonaldehyde, Isobutylaldehyde,
Methyl Ethyl Ketone, Benzaldehyde, Veraldehyde, Hexanaldehyde, Ethyl Alcohol, Acetone, Isopropyl
Alcohol, Methyl Ethyl Ketone, Butane, Isopentane, Pentane, Hexane, Butyl Alcohol, Methyl Isobutyl
Ketone, n,n-Dimethyl Acetamide, Dimethyl Disulfide, m-Cresol, 4-Ethyl Toulene, n-Heptaldehyde, Octanal,
1,4-Dioxane, Methyl Phenyl Ketone, Vinyl Acetate, Heptane, Phenol, Octane , Anthracene,
Dimethylnapthalene(isomers), Flouranthene,1-methylaphthalene, 2-methylnaphthalene, Naphthalene,
Phenanthrene, Pyrene , Benzo(a)pyrene, 1-nitropyrene,1,8-dinitropyrene, 1,3-Butadiene, sulfites,
nitrites, nitrogen oxide, nitrogen monoxide, nitrogendioxide, nitrogen trioxide, nitric acid, sulfur
oxides, sulfur dioxide, sulfuric acid, urea, ammonia,carbon monoxide, ozone, particulate matter (PM10,PM2.5)

WHAT SYMPTOMS CAN OCCUR WITH PROLONGED
EXPOSURE TO THESE CHEMICALS?

ASPHYXIATION - ASTHMA - BRAIN CANCER - CANCER CONJUNCTIVE IRRITATION - COUGHING - DELAYEDHYPERSENSITIVITY - DISTORTED PERCEPTIONS - DROWSINESS- DYSPNEA HEADACHE - EEG CHANGES - EMPHYSEMA - FLUSHING - HALLUCINATIONS - HEART DISEASE - HODGKIN´S DISEASE - KIDNEY DAMAGE - LACRIMATION - LIVER DAMAGE - LUNG DISEASE - LUNG STRUCTURE DAMAGE - LUNG TIGHTNESS - LYMPHOMA - MENTAL DEPRESSION - MULTIPLE ORGAN INVOLVEMENT - MUSCLE WEAKNESS - MUTATIONS – MYELOID LEUKEMIA - NASAL EFFECTS - NAUSEA, VOMITING - PULSE
RATE DECREASE - PULMONARY IRRITATION – RESPIRATORY SYSTEM DAMAGE - SKIN AND EYE IRRITATION – SYSTEMIC IRRITATION - TUMORS – WHEEZING

A 1993 US-EPA study of Midway Airport exhibited massive amounts of known carcinogens coming from
aircraft engines in tons-per-year. It also predicted that it produced more than 400 times the allowable
cancer risks to the population than that of a federal Superfind Cleanup site (Toxic Waste Dump), as a direct
result of exposure to these airport toxins.

http://www.noairportcliffe.co.uk/facts.htm

Yes, but only if you connect the exhaust of the jet engine to your face via a pipe and inhale deeply. :painkiller:

[dan i el]

Yes, but only if you connect the exhaust of the jet engine to your face via a pipe and inhale deeply. :painkiller:

not quite. Also the changeover from JP4 to JP8/JPA in commercial aviation might be of interest, not least as various militaries keep the ratio of sulphur in their own mixes classified. shrugs

[heyokah]

Here is the most telling evidence of all. This is a link to the Library of Congress printing of House Bill number H.R. 2977. Please take note of Section 7, 2(B)(ii):
http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c107:H.R.2977.IH:

I welcome an explanation as to why a bill introduced into the House of Representatives of the United States mentions CHEMTRAILS as a weapon, if (in fact) there is no such 'weapon' existing.

This is the 'smoking gun'.... so to speak

Dear Fred, you didn't give any comment on the evidence Observer presented in reply 131

Is the gun too smoking this time ? :)

update:
Actually Fred, I can hear you say: It's all New World Order and its trickery… .....YEHHHHHH !!!

[Fred259]

a very useful analogy paul, thank you. i have deliberately stayed away from this thread for the very reasons to which you allude. nothing i can say will effect fred's persistant and vehement rebuttals... Fred you are to be commended on your tenacity. I know what i see, and its not white rabbits!

Mondaze..You and I are the same age roughly.

35 years ago over Cheshire you had Trident aircraft perhaps three per hour going into Ridgway (Manchester International) The Trident had three engines producing 21,000lbs thrust each. Total 63,000 lbs of thrust.

Today you have over Cheshire B777 aircraft around thirty five per hour going into Ridgway( Manchester International) The B777 has two engines producing 115,000 lbs each. Total 230,000 lbs of thrust.

35 years ago Manchester had one runway today it has two.

Therefore.

Traffic has exploded particularly so for low cost travel.

Engine power has increased 4-5 fold.

The bigger the engine, the greater the thrust, the larger the contrail, the longer it takes to dissipate.

PS. Even over Cheshire..!

PPS Manchester is a bad airport. Its where the government do all the trails on the surveillance equipment, body scanners, retinal eye scanners etc…

[heyokah]

Here is the most telling evidence of all. This is a link to the Library of Congress printing of House Bill number H.R. 2977. Please take note of Section 7, 2(B)(ii):
http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c107:H.R.2977.IH:

I welcome an explanation as to why a bill introduced into the House of Representatives of the United States mentions CHEMTRAILS as a weapon, if (in fact) there is no such 'weapon' existing.

This is the 'smoking gun'.... so to speak

Dear Fred, as I wrote in reply 150, you didn't give any comment on the evidence Observer presented in reply 131

To make it easier for you to reply, I have copied the part of the article that deserves your attention

***


SEC. 7. DEFINITIONS.

In this Act:

(1) The term `space' means all space extending upward from an altitude greater than 60 kilometers above the surface of the earth and any celestial body in such space.

(2) (A) The terms `weapon' and `weapons system' mean a device capable of any of the following:

(i) Damaging or destroying an object (whether in outer space, in the atmosphere, or on earth) by--

--(I) firing one or more projectiles to collide with that object;

--(II) detonating one or more explosive devices in close proximity to that object;

--(III) directing a source of energy (including molecular or atomic energy, subatomic particle beams, electromagnetic radiation, plasma, or extremely low frequency
(ELF) or ultra low frequency (ULF) energy radiation) against that object; or

--(IV) any other unacknowledged or as yet undeveloped means.

(ii) Inflicting death or injury on, or damaging or destroying, a person (or the biological life, bodily health, mental health, or physical and economic well-being of a person)

--(I) through the use of any of the means described in clause (i) or subparagraph (B);

--(II) through the use of land-based, sea-based, or space-based systems using radiation, electromagnetic, psychotronic, sonic, laser, or other energies directed at
individual persons or targeted populations for the purpose of information war, mood management, or mind control of such persons or populations; or

--(III) by expelling chemical or biological agents in the vicinity of a person.

(B) Such terms include exotic weapons systems such as--

- (i) electronic, psychotronic, or information weapons;

-(ii) chemtrails;

-(iii) high altitude ultra low frequency weapons systems;

-(iv) plasma, electromagnetic, sonic, or ultrasonic weapons;

-(v) laser weapons systems;

-(vi) strategic, theater, tactical, or extraterrestrial weapons; and

-(vii) chemical, biological, environmental, climate, or tectonic weapons.

(C) The term `exotic weapons systems' includes weapons designed to damage space or natural ecosystems (such as the ionosphere and upper atmosphere) or climate, weather, and tectonic systems with the purpose of inducing damage or destruction upon a target population or region on earth or in space.


***

[Fred259]

Here is the most telling evidence of all. This is a link to the Library of Congress printing of House Bill number H.R. 2977. Please take note of Section 7, 2(B)(ii):
http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c107:H.R.2977.IH:

I welcome an explanation as to why a bill introduced into the House of Representatives of the United States mentions CHEMTRAILS as a weapon, if (in fact) there is no such 'weapon' existing.

This is the 'smoking gun'.... so to speak

Dear Fred, as I wrote in reply 150, you didn't give any comment on the evidence Observer presented in reply 131

To make it easier for you to reply, I have copied the part of the article that deserves your attention

***


SEC. 7. DEFINITIONS.

In this Act:

(1) The term `space' means all space extending upward from an altitude greater than 60 kilometers above the surface of the earth and any celestial body in such space.

(2)(A) The terms `weapon' and `weapons system' mean a device capable of any of the following:

(i) Damaging or destroying an object (whether in outer space, in the atmosphere, or on earth) by--

(I) firing one or more projectiles to collide with that object;

(II) detonating one or more explosive devices in close proximity to that object;

(III) directing a source of energy (including molecular or atomic energy, subatomic particle beams, electromagnetic radiation, plasma, or extremely low frequency (ELF) or ultra low frequency (ULF) energy radiation) against that object; or

(IV) any other unacknowledged or as yet undeveloped means.

(ii) Inflicting death or injury on, or damaging or destroying, a person (or the biological life, bodily health, mental health, or physical and economic well-being of a person)--

(I) through the use of any of the means described in clause (i) or subparagraph (B);

(II) through the use of land-based, sea-based, or space-based systems using radiation, electromagnetic, psychotronic, sonic, laser, or other energies directed at individual persons or targeted populations for the purpose of information war, mood management, or mind control of such persons or populations; or

(III) by expelling chemical or biological agents in the vicinity of a person.

(B) Such terms include exotic weapons systems such as--

(i) electronic, psychotronic, or information weapons;

(ii) chemtrails;

(iii) high altitude ultra low frequency weapons systems;

(iv) plasma, electromagnetic, sonic, or ultrasonic weapons;

(v) laser weapons systems;

(vi) strategic, theater, tactical, or extraterrestrial weapons; and

(vii) chemical, biological, environmental, climate, or tectonic weapons.

(C) The term `exotic weapons systems' includes weapons designed to damage space or natural ecosystems (such as the ionosphere and upper atmosphere) or climate, weather, and tectonic systems with the purpose of inducing damage or destruction upon a target population or region on earth or in space.


***
Sorry…. Yes the Kucinich bill before Congress unfortunately didn’t go through. Im not quite sure what happened but I think most of the Congressmen/ women didn’t agree for whatever reason.

The bill covered just about everything that’s involved in the upper atmosphere including the ionosphere and included HAARP so its not surprising it didn’t go through.

Kucinich we are told has leanings towards the truth movement and so yes we would expect to see these items on the list chemtrails included. He also calls them exotic weapons, Ive never heard of that expression before…

Such terms include exotic weapons systems such as—


(i) electronic, psychotronic, or information weapons;
(ii) chemtrails;
(iii) high altitude ultra low frequency weapons systems;
(iv) plasma, electromagnetic, sonic, or ultrasonic weapons;
(v) laser weapons systems;
(vi) strategic, theater, tactical, or extraterrestrial weapons; and
(vii) chemical, biological, environmental, climate, or tectonic weapons.
(C) The term `exotic weapons systems' includes weapons designed to damage space or natural ecosystems (such as the ionosphere and upper atmosphere) or climate, weather, and tectonic systems with the purpose of inducing damage or destruction upon a target population or region on earth or in space.


However that was in 2001. Recently the British Government all party committee of Geo Engineering published a paper where they said they would have a thorough consultation with the public, and in partnership with the US Congress all these matters will be considered.

Much of the research work into Geo Engineering was carried out by Edinburgh University, and is ongoing.
http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200910/cmselect/cmsctech/221/221.pdf

In December 2009, so around 18 months ago the Royal Society in London published a report saying that £10 million per annum should be set aside for 10 years to research Geo Engineering. This is a concern largely because they have very strong links with the ptb and I think Prince Charles may have some involvement here, but Im not certain.

http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200910/cmselect/cmsctech/221/10011312.htm

[heyokah]

Well, they didn't deny chemtrails.........but that was in 2001 you say ?? That doesn't count then....:dizzy:..???

[Trail]

Whats this ?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bSSWnXQsgOU

[Fred259]

Well, they didn't deny chemtrails.........but that was in 2001 you say ?? That doesn't count then....

Sorry yes I just checked it was 2001. I don’t know much about it. Perhaps it might have been better to go for a watered down bill with a hope of getting a result.

The facts are we will never really know precisely what the military are up to. Im fairly certain they have completed a lot of trials with HAARP in and around the Washington State, Oregon, Idaho region which involved a defensive shield protecting against Russian space weapons, but I have no details.

[Carmody]

As for a tracking chip' being built into an iphone, I don't believe that for one second either, Paul.

A connection through a close friend of 25 years..the connection is to a senior project manager for a major electronics hardware manufacturer for telecommunications devices.

The backdoor tends to be built right into the hardware coding.

At the chip level.

No tracking chip, just alternative paths to access, is all.

Another one designed major software programs at the federal (coast to coast, ocean to ocean, ie- federal) level.

Things can be said there, too.

There is not and never was any 'tracking chip'.

IME....It is always a back door built into the coding. Nothing new there. Just good programming, and design - is all.

[Fred259]

I will just add my thoughts to this...

I am in the South East of England. On Thursday 12th May, I was watching the skies with the effects that I have heard described several times here.

I am not and expert on this, I just am going on intuition, but something seems wrong with these trails.

They do seem to come from "white" planes, but I am going to look more closely next time - they could be commercial, but maybe they aren't.

The trails definitely are in patterns, but as Fred says this could be due to planes flying in parallel paths.

The trails turn into "mist" that sinks, that is for sure. And over a period of time, these do turn into a haze that covers the whole blue sky.

I hope there is a natural explanation for this. I suspect there is an explanation that is less natural.

One last thing I would say is that I have noticed that after dry spells of weather, if there is heavy rain, you see a white residue on the roads. Again, this is a new phenomenon to me and looks very strange. It is almost like there is a chemical that is manifesting in the rain and is almost like a detergent with white bubbles.

This is an interesting debate for sure. I am watching it develop with interest and will feed any further information I find in to it.

J
Hello JC71…SE England is a disaster really. In reality a minor miracle is worked every day in and around London’s five airports.

This is a good place to watch especially at 08.00 in the morning.

Even now 00.35 GMT on a Sunday morning 650 aircraft are in the skies over Europe.

http://planefinder.net/

[
7407

London Heathrow + Holds

These London holding stacks perhaps add to the problem. Twelve aircraft per stack early in the morning plus approach traffic will soon cloud over the city if atmospheric conditions permit.

Sometime they hold further out Worthing is a popular area.

[ThePythonicCow]

As for a tracking chip' being built into an iphone, I don't believe that for one second either, Paul.Technically, my guess would be you're spot on. The tracking "features" of smart phones (whatever they are) are almost certainly integrated into the existing hardware, firmware and software, not in a separate chip.

I was more concerned with drawing a useful analogy to this current thread about Chemtrails than I was in the technical accuracy of the off topic details of smart phone tracking.

[observer]

From the A. C. Griffith website:


"A C Griffith is an investigative researcher with a background in radio communications technology and intelligence gathering for the Air Force, NSA and CIA, A C Griffith has come to the forefront with his revelations on how our country is being destroyed right before our eyes and why it is so important that we be both informed and prepared for what is coming. His talking points include the Gulf Oil Spill, Economics and Finance, Earth Changes, Preparedness, Prophecy, Stuff in the Sky, and Technology. He makes his home in Richmond, Virginia.

In other words, A. C. Griffith is a whistle blower that has come out of the 'spook' network to reveal what he knows. He was 'personally present' to the testimony he gives in this interview, therefore making him a 'credible witness'.

The following is a Joyce Riley (The Power Hour) interview with A. C. Griffith. I would implore any individual to listen to the entire presentation as it sheds light on this CHEMTRAIL phenomenon and ties the issue into an historical perspective of current events:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hesBizPRBoU&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hesBizPRBoU&feature=related

Part 2 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ygnBs4Rb8p0&feature=related

Part 3 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OmwMwLIAjcE&feature=related

Part 4 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hGOsxtwJ_Pk&feature=related

Now.... I really doubt ol'Fred will take the time to watch this video. I've posted it more for those of you who still have any doubt about this CHEMTRAIL issue. Discern for yourself....

[Fred259]

Whats this ?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bSSWnXQsgOU

They say it’s a military KC-10, but Im almost certain it’s a commercial DC-10 descending through a very unstable atmosphere. The crew will without question know about the second aircraft. They want you to think they have been creeping up on the larger aircraft but onboard equipment would have detected the aircraft behind.

What he is doing is washing off speed to set up a rate of descent, so effectively the aircraft is really dropping like a stone.

It’s quite an interesting video really; it shows the level of deception and the lengths these lovely people will go to. What has mankind done or as Bill said in the Inelia Q&A Video, precisely what is it they are hiding from us that they go to these extraordinary lengths to deceive mankind.

[Carmody]

Well Fred259, I think I'm with you on this one, I too am in major doubt about these alleged chemtrails. I think it is only a atmospheric effect, depending on how cold and how much wind it is up there, depends on how long the chemtrails last, its basic high school science. The main two chemicals that are the supposed to be the evidence for chemtrails are Aluminium and Barium. Now my father used to work in the aluminium industry and I remember him saying that aluminium is the most abundant metal on this earth and you can find it almost everywhere, which got me thinking if it so abundant, then that must mean that we can find it in the the air and if we can find it in the air then that means we can find it rain water. Luckily I found a site that states this fact.

World Health Organisation; Aluminium in drinking water. (http://www.who.int/water_sanitation_health/dwq/wsh0304_53/en/index4.html)

Aluminium in its natural particle state is considered harmless to humans(again we find it everywhere), in fact most antiperspirants use aluminium as key ingredient. However aluminium dust(which looks like a dark silver powder) is another story and this can cause lung damage.

As for Barium, this blog expalins a reason why it was found in that test http://contrailscience.com/barium-chemtrails/

However I will not deny that there is cloud seeding programs happening and crop spraying.

do a search for aluminum and Nikolai Kozyrev. (the forum and the net)

Then..... the penny may drop.

This also dovetails into David Hudson's works on monatomics. When assayed, they came up in 30 second arc burn spectroscopic tests as..'iron, silicon, and aluminum'.

We may be looking at multi-frequency scalar waveform blocking techniques.

Ie, scalar technology wars.

See the video set in 'the question of lithium' thread. post #31 or so, IIRC.

We my also be looking at the very mechanism of FTL or superconductive cellular communication, and thus, the basic dimensional communication system that psychics easily recognize as being real. (from the offices of the United States Academy for Naval Research-or whatever the exact name for the Naval Academy is)

With respect to the idea of there being a battle at the dimensional level, the evidence, even on the most hard scientific tact or direction..the evidence for the potential is definitely there.

You just need to be introduced to the data.

However, beware your baseline psychology, it may get in the way of your logic function.

The questions and their unfolding are complex, and the answers they lead to are quite uncomfortable. Even as a simple idea to be explored. That much is obvious.

[Fred259]

I think perhaps the US military have done some trails using aluminium. Im just thinking as I type here, and what it involves is a alloy shield that could be placed within the atmosphere perhaps during times of potential turmoil that would refract VLF waves back towards the enemy or another area.

For Example. The US could install this perhaps over Washington and thus any inbound radio waves would refract back towards the ionosphere and refract again over the Atlantic for example… Like a Defense Shield…I think, I don’t know.

[loveandgratitude]

FRED - Do not worry, your government is in control, everything is AOK. Just go back to sleep.

7408

[Fred259]

FRED - Do not worry, your government is in control, everything is AOK. Just go back to sleep.

7408


With respect L&G you know nothing about me…

[ghostrider]

the chemtrail crew wear patches on their flight suits that say spraying you since 1996. chemtrails are real, say whatever you want, the agenda goes on, whether we believe it or not.

[nomadguy]

implosive fuel
- http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4099/4807494538_574bbcef99_b.jpg

- http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/2008cosp...37..261B "the CARE program"

[Kerrigan]

Thank you for your response Fred =)

[heyokah]

Whats this ?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bSSWnXQsgOU


You are completely right !! Forgot the : :tsk::pray::confused:??????
to show my feelings of surprise....

Update : (from behind my computer this time...)

LOL
Sorry, the video didn't show on my iPad, so I thought you were commenting on my short reply 154
with another 'short reply' ("Wat's this ?")

[starsmoonmtns]

All I can say Fred is.... do you/did you work for Evergreen Airlines or WHO? May wanna check em out.... outta McMinnville, Oregon and Tucson Arizona, amongst other places worldwide.....
CIA ya!

[Flash]

[QUOTE=Kerrigan;218824]I'd like to add my experiences with what I believe is chemtrails.

I work in an 10th floor office, with windows all around me. Looking outside is beautiful, I see from my desk the Montréal stadium and the magnificent Mount Royal. On sunny days, I've been really concern by lingering trails in the skies.
Read what she types Paul, she is concerned…so don’t you think we have a responsibility to tell her the truth and relieve her concern or do we just leave her to be concerned.
Don’t be concerned Kerrigan, it’s a deception.

There is a flying road of commercial planes that passes right by window. All the commercial planes leave no trails, or trails that linger max 1min. They always passes by the same flying road.

The relative humidity is less than 100%.


However, there are other types of planes, that looks like commercial planes, except they are all white. Their flying road is irregular, creating X and parallel lines of lingering trails. Those trails leave a thick, white cloud that does not disperse. I see them from my desk, and observe what they become with time.

Kerrigan, you are kind of special because Montreal area gets all the inbound and outbound transatlantic traffic together with Canadian flights.

All white aircraft are not really white they just look like that because they have come from perhaps as far as the Middle East 10/12 hrs and have been in a -60C enviroment for all that time. It’s known as cold soaked. It’s a bit like hoar frost…


After 2 hours, the trail is larger, less thick, and comes down in altitude. The more it falls, the more foggy it looks. It seems to suspend in the air, gradually enlarging with time. And after 4 hours, the trails are not visible, only a curtain of foggy, gray covers the sky, at low altitude.Its larger because its dissipating. Eventually it spreads into cirrostratus cloud, spreading over the whole sky… I think this is what you are describing…


The two pass days, Thursday and Friday have been particularly intense. I've seen white planes, with no trails, and suddenly, out of nowhere, they start creating lingering trails. If an aircraft is in cold-60C where the relative humidity is less than 100% it cant turn white. As soon as it moves into an airmass where RH is 100% it will turn white…

Kerrigan, When you leave the house for work on a winters morning after a nights frost what colour is your car?.. White….yea...


I have read this thread trying to convince myself that these are normal trails. When Fred said that humidity is a big factor to consider, I went and check it for Montréal yesterday.

At or close to 100% relative humidity at altitude cloud and contrails will form.

For both days, the humidity was* 40% and less... the sky was clear in the morning around 8, and at 2pm, it was almost completely and uniformly gray, except small spots. I am in a learning process, I might be wrong, of course, but...

* Its where the aircraft is...

Im glad you ask about relative humidity, at least someone has been reading this! It needs to be 100% where the aircraft is.


Montreal gets a log of fog from the St Lawrence. Fog / clouds / contrails will only form when the relative humidity is 100%. It doesn’t matter where it is your back yard or 35,000ft.

Driving along the road in fog relative humidity is 100%, you go into the clear relative humidity is now 80%, back into the fog, relative humidity is again 100% back into the clear its now 80% etc.


I still do believe that chemtrails exist and that Montreal is spread regularly.

I know you do because you have been reading truther sites, and they all copy each other.

This is an attack on the truth movement, by the same people who control the media. They are trying to scare you believing that Air Canada are spraying the people….its shocking if that were happening the military would be taking Harper at gunpoint.! Don’t you think this would effect them also…don’t be scared Kerrigan. What have I to gain by telling lies to you…

I live in Montreal and I conqur (well j'appuie) I support Kerrigan, I see the same trails and airplanes. But we both must be blind not seeing signs on airplanes.

I also probably saw cloaking, a plane looking like a jet but stationary over the highway, at no more than 500 meters - this was litterally impossible. No chemtrails with this one though.

[linz2d]

Well Fred259, I think I'm with you on this one, I too am in major doubt about these alleged chemtrails. I think it is only a atmospheric effect, depending on how cold and how much wind it is up there, depends on how long the chemtrails last, its basic high school science. The main two chemicals that are the supposed to be the evidence for chemtrails are Aluminium and Barium. Now my father used to work in the aluminium industry and I remember him saying that aluminium is the most abundant metal on this earth and you can find it almost everywhere, which got me thinking if it so abundant, then that must mean that we can find it in the the air and if we can find it in the air then that means we can find it rain water. Luckily I found a site that states this fact.

World Health Organisation; Aluminium in drinking water. (http://www.who.int/water_sanitation_health/dwq/wsh0304_53/en/index4.html)

Aluminium in its natural particle state is considered harmless to humans(again we find it everywhere), in fact most antiperspirants use aluminium as key ingredient. However aluminium dust(which looks like a dark silver powder) is another story and this can cause lung damage.

As for Barium, this blog expalins a reason why it was found in that test http://contrailscience.com/barium-chemtrails/

However I will not deny that there is cloud seeding programs happening and crop spraying.

do a search for aluminum and Nikolai Kozyrev. (the forum and the net)

Then..... the penny may drop.

This also dovetails into David Hudson's works on monatomics. When assayed, they came up in 30 second arc burn spectroscopic tests as..'iron, silicon, and aluminum'.

We may be looking at multi-frequency scalar waveform blocking techniques.

Ie, scalar technology wars.

See the video set in 'the question of lithium' thread. post #31 or so, IIRC.

We my also be looking at the very mechanism of FTL or superconductive cellular communication, and thus, the basic dimensional communication system that psychics easily recognize as being real. (from the offices of the United States Academy for Naval Research-or whatever the exact name for the Naval Academy is)

With respect to the idea of there being a battle at the dimensional level, the evidence, even on the most hard scientific tact or direction..the evidence for the potential is definitely there.

You just need to be introduced to the data.

However, beware your baseline psychology, it may get in the way of your logic function.

The questions and their unfolding are complex, and the answers they lead to are quite uncomfortable. Even as a simple idea to be explored. That much is obvious.

I rather not, my head is filled with enough BS as it is.

The point I was making is that so far there is no evidence to state that the chemical composition of chemtrails/contrails which comes down as rain water is poisonous to us. I keep on hearing from the likes of David Icke and Alex Jones saying that there is "scientific evidence". In fact the only thing I found on the internet was a YouTube video showing the results from rain water(nothing wrong with that) but then again as I have shown there is a reasonable explanation for those results. If there was a world wide study which shows above average amounts of chemicals in rain water then I am happy enough to change my mind and to admit that I was wrong.

However here I am countered with hocus pocus based in sciencific understanding. I do not deny that aluminium could be used to reflect light in the atmoshpere or that there might be a remote possibility that there's an inter-dimensional battle going on but what does have to do with whether chemtrails are dangerous to ones health or not?

You know that, "problem-reaction-solution" thing can be used on both sides; Problem, the NWO is trying to kill us all. Reaction, look at those contrails don't they look odd, that must be how the NWO is trying to kill us.(but had anyone ever really paid any attention to the sky before this statements was made?). Solution, rise up against the NWO. And david sells another book... ka-ching.

Look up the health effects of methane gas, to much and it can reduce oxygen levels to a state which could result in death. Yet at the same time we are still producing the stuff from our own bodies everyday. Surely it must be the NWO plot to kill us through our own farting. If you ask me I think people tend to look to much for that boogyman in the closet.

I am always open to the possibility that the concept of chemtrails can be used in a negative way. But I believe that what we see out side our windows are only contrails of commercial aircraft.

[chancy]

I think perhaps the US military have done some trails using aluminium. Im just thinking as I type here, and what it involves is a alloy shield that could be placed within the atmosphere perhaps during times of potential turmoil that would refract VLF waves back towards the enemy or another area.
For Example. The US could install this perhaps over Washington and thus any inbound radio waves would refract back towards the ionosphere and refract again over the Atlantic for example… Like a Defense Shield…I think, I don’t know.

Fred259 it's always fascinating to see how you manipulate the thread to your advantage! Now in this post you are saying the military has done some aluminum CHEMTRAILS but next you tell everyone that they don't exist and it's impossible to spray chemicals out of a jet. Which is it? Are you a believer in CHEMTRAILS or still the bearer of balony?
I personally would like to know your credentials because for someone whom doesn't believe in CHEMTRAILS you appear to be an expert on them and on weather and on the atmosphere and on aircraft and on chemical spraying and on the equipment for spraying chemicals and on and on and on?? Does this mean you are a WHISTLEBLOWER? IF you are then please let everyone know that you were the guy that was at the square table and voted against CHEMTRAILS. Because I have read everything you have written on all the threads you are on and personally there is MORE EVIDENCE for CHEMTRAILS than your epistle of hundreds of pages of nothing more than a weather forecast. You have NEVER GIVEN ANY EVIDENCE that stands up to all the evidence that there is CHEMTRAILS except a weather forecast.
Now is the time to stand up and be that WHISTLEBLOWER and tell the truth so we know you were at that square table on that overcast day.................
regards,
Chancy

[chancy]

FRED - Do not worry, your government is in control, everything is AOK. Just go back to sleep.

7408


With respect L&G you know nothing about me…



Fred259 with respect I and everyone else wants to know about YOU! Tell us IF you are a WHISTLEBLOWER or just hot air blowing the forecast for todays weather because I am getting tired of reading all the pages and pages of weather forecasting and no substance to your posts.
I know you haven't read mine and probably the others on the threads here on Avalon so this is a mood point of writing about TRUTH with you.
Regards,
Chancy

[mondaze]

i'm afraid fred cant respond...he's on gardening leave!

[chancy]

Fred259 it's time to baffle us with TRUTH and not B++LS++T. After all the reading and complete understanding of your posts you haven't given any informed person anything but a weather forecast to munch on. Fred259 is time for you to shine and give all of us that are here for TRUTH the real lowdown on whom you are and why you are writing hundreds of pages of forecasting the weather?
For someone that apparently has not read for sure my posts and probably most other informed peoples posts WE ALL would like to give you the last chance to tell us if you are a real WHISTLEBLOWER or just a weatherman that needs someone to hear the forecast for todays weather since nothing else has been accomplished by your novel of weather forecasting here.
Yet you admit in a round about way that the us military has spraying aluminum BUT everywhere else it's impossible to spray chemicals out of a jet. In one of my posts in the novel of forecasting by yourself there is a small post with the company out of the us that sprays water and therefore can spray chemicals our of a 747. I'm sure you never went to the website I provided BUT if you did you could not possibly LIE TO PEOPLE and say it's not possible to spray out of jets because they are doing it. I gave you the documentation and all you've given me and others is the weather forecast..........................and you even got that wrong.............................
Regards,
Chancy

[Decibellistics]

I guess I should post this again.

http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&d=PALL&p=1&u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsrchnum.htm&r=1&f=G&l=50&s1=5003186.PN.&OS=PN/5003186&RS=PN/5003186

The proof the technology exists. Brought to you by the patent office circa 1991.

[Decibellistics]

Thorium dioxide (ThO2), also called thorium(IV) oxide is a white, crystalline powder. It was formerly known as thoria or thorina. It is produced mainly as a by-product of lanthanide and uranium production.[1] Thorianite is the name of the mineralogical form of thorium dioxide. It is moderately rare and crystallizes in isometric system.
[edit] Chemistry

The compound is radioactive due to the radioactivity of thorium. Thorium dioxide can be used as a nuclear fuel. (Refer to the article of thorium for more information on this application.) The high thermal stability of thorium dioxide allows applications in flame spraying and high temperature ceramics. Thorium dioxide was the primary ingredient in the X-ray contrast medium Thorotrast. Use of Thorotrast was abandoned when it was found to be a carcinogen, sometimes causing cholangiocarcinoma. Today, barium sulfate is the standard X-ray contrast agent. Thoria has the fluorite crystal structure. Few other binary dioxides have this structure: uranium dioxide, hafnium dioxide and cerium dioxide, not to mention plutonium dioxide. The band gap of thoria is about 6 eV.
[edit] Applications

Thorium dioxide is used as a stabilizer in tungsten electrodes in TIG welding, electron tubes, and aircraft engines. As an alloy, thoriated tungsten metal is not easily deformed because the high fusion material thoria augments the high temperature mechanical properties, and thorium helps stimulate the emission of electrons (thermions). It is the most popular oxide additive because of its low cost, but is being phased out in favor of non-radioactive elements such as cerium, lanthanum and zirconium.

A major use in the past was in gas mantles of lanterns, which were frequently composed of 99 percent ThO2 and 1% cerium(IV) oxide. Even as late as the 1980s it was estimated that about half of all ThO2 produced (several hundred tonnes per year) was used for this purpose.[2] Some mantles still use thorium, but yttrium oxide (or sometimes zirconium oxide) is used increasingly as a replacement.

Thorium dioxide was formerly added to glasses during manufacture to increase their refractive index, producing thoriated glass with up to 40% ThO2 content. These glasses were used in the construction of high-quality photographic lenses. However, the radioactivity of the thorium caused both a safety and pollution hazard and self-degradation of the glass (turning it yellow or brown over time). Lanthanum oxide has replaced thorium dioxide in almost all modern high-index glasses.

The melting point of thorium oxide is 3300°C - the highest of all oxides. Only a few elements (including tungsten and carbon) and a few compounds (including tantalum carbide) have higher melting points.).[3]

Thorium dioxide is a Welsbach material. It has been suggested[4] that these chemicals could be sprayed into the upper atmosphere to reflect sunlight and thus lower the global temperature.

Thorium dioxide is a catalyst in many chemical reactions, including the Ruzicka large ring synthesis, petroleum cracking, conversion of ammonia to nitric acid and preparation of sulfuric acid.[5]

Thoria dispersed nickel finds its applications in various high temperature operations like combustion engines because its a good creep resistant material. It can also be used for hydrogen trapping.[6][7]

this is one of the trusty ingredients in the patent......

[jc71]

Hi Fred,

Thanks for your response. I am open minded to what might be causing the trails I am seeing. I am near to West Malling and am going to use the planefinder site you refer to to see if I can cross-reference what I am seeing. How accurate is this service? Who updates it?

Regards,

Jonathan



I will just add my thoughts to this...

I am in the South East of England. On Thursday 12th May, I was watching the skies with the effects that I have heard described several times here.

I am not and expert on this, I just am going on intuition, but something seems wrong with these trails.

They do seem to come from "white" planes, but I am going to look more closely next time - they could be commercial, but maybe they aren't.

The trails definitely are in patterns, but as Fred says this could be due to planes flying in parallel paths.

The trails turn into "mist" that sinks, that is for sure. And over a period of time, these do turn into a haze that covers the whole blue sky.

I hope there is a natural explanation for this. I suspect there is an explanation that is less natural.

One last thing I would say is that I have noticed that after dry spells of weather, if there is heavy rain, you see a white residue on the roads. Again, this is a new phenomenon to me and looks very strange. It is almost like there is a chemical that is manifesting in the rain and is almost like a detergent with white bubbles.

This is an interesting debate for sure. I am watching it develop with interest and will feed any further information I find in to it.

J
Hello JC71…SE England is a disaster really. In reality a minor miracle is worked every day in and around London’s five airports.

This is a good place to watch especially at 08.00 in the morning.

Even now 00.35 GMT on a Sunday morning 650 aircraft are in the skies over Europe.

http://planefinder.net/

[
7407

London Heathrow + Holds

These London holding stacks perhaps add to the problem. Twelve aircraft per stack early in the morning plus approach traffic will soon cloud over the city if atmospheric conditions permit.

Sometime they hold further out Worthing is a popular area.

[heyokah]

I guess I should post this again.

http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&d=PALL&p=1&u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsrchnum.htm&r=1&f=G&l=50&s1=5003186.PN.&OS=PN/5003186&RS=PN/5003186

The proof the technology exists. Brought to you by the patent office circa 1991.

Thank you decibellistics.

I'm copying part of the link here if you don't mind....

***

One proposed solution to the problem of global warming involves the seeding of the atmosphere with metallic particles. One technique proposed to seed the metallic particles was to add the tiny particles to the fuel of jet airliners, so that the particles would be emitted from the jet engine exhaust while the airliner was at its cruising altitude. While this method would increase the reflection of visible light incident from space, the metallic particles would trap the long wavelength blackbody radiation released from the earth. This could result in net increase in global warming.

***

[carebear2]

I've never heard of chemtrails before but I've seen them lines in the sky and wondered why the planes were leaving thick lines that looked a bit like clouds. They are spraying something because they never use to leave these lines that almost last all day

[Trail]

It’s quite an interesting video really; it shows the level of deception and the lengths these lovely people will go to. What has mankind done or as Bill said in the Inelia Q&A Video, precisely what is it they are hiding from us that they go to these extraordinary lengths to deceive mankind.

Whut?????

Well dear Fred i really think you should get up from behind ur computer and go outside and look up to the sky more often and really get to know your sky.. amp up that human connection with nature.. then when you see chemtrails and watch them do their work in the atmosphere you will KNOW the difference from mere contrails.. that is assuming you still have periods without chemtrails in your area.. i've noticed a big reduction here in Holland.. since the radiation is flying over we often have beautifull blue skies.. wich gives me new energy to tell everyone i know to look up and NOTICE how things should be.. its beautifull to see a real oldskool contrail dissipating in a completely blue sky..

[chancy]

Fred259....What happened??? You have been writing novels here and now nothing when I ask for clarification on your credentials in posts 169, 170 and 172? Of course you also could be gardening as you have sarcasticly said to other truth seekers! Everyone is waiting for your rebuttal(s). For all the hubbalou you have gone on about the weather and calling people liers etc. it's time to come clean.....
I personally think you are the fellow trying to give disinfo here BUT you can change that by telling all of us about the square table you were at when CHEMTRAILS were supposedly pushed to the back burner. (As you say it's just a bunch of info to waste time with....) Sounds like you are speaking about all the pages everyone had to read from yourself that basically gave us nothing.........but a bad weather report!
Time to step up....................everyone is waiting.....................
Regards,
Chancy

[blufire]

He can’t answer or post.

Fred was put out for a one week suspension. Look at the title under his flag and avatar

He got a little “testy” in the Censorship thread.

Not being able to answer is probably driving him nuts right about now.





Fred259....What happened??? You have been writing novels here and now nothing when I ask for clarification on your credentials in posts 169, 170 and 172? Of course you also could be gardening as you have sarcasticly said to other truth seekers! Everyone is waiting for your rebuttal(s). For all the hubbalou you have gone on about the weather and calling people liers etc. it's time to come clean.....
I personally think you are the fellow trying to give disinfo here BUT you can change that by telling all of us about the square table you were at when CHEMTRAILS were supposedly pushed to the back burner. (As you say it's just a bunch of info to waste time with....) Sounds like you are speaking about all the pages everyone had to read from yourself that basically gave us nothing.........but a bad weather report!
Time to step up....................everyone is waiting.....................
Regards,
Chancy

[Calz]

He can’t answer or post.

Fred was put out for a one week suspension. Look at the title under his flag and avatar

He got a little “testy” in the Censorship thread.

Not being able to answer is probably driving him nuts right about now.





Fred259....What happened??? You have been writing novels here and now nothing when I ask for clarification on your credentials in posts 169, 170 and 172? Of course you also could be gardening as you have sarcasticly said to other truth seekers! Everyone is waiting for your rebuttal(s). For all the hubbalou you have gone on about the weather and calling people liers etc. it's time to come clean.....
I personally think you are the fellow trying to give disinfo here BUT you can change that by telling all of us about the square table you were at when CHEMTRAILS were supposedly pushed to the back burner. (As you say it's just a bunch of info to waste time with....) Sounds like you are speaking about all the pages everyone had to read from yourself that basically gave us nothing.........but a bad weather report!
Time to step up....................everyone is waiting.....................
Regards,
Chancy

:crazy_pilot:

[blufire]

He can’t answer or post.

Fred was put out for a one week suspension. Look at the title under his flag and avatar

He got a little “testy” in the Censorship thread.

Not being able to answer is probably driving him nuts right about now.





Fred259....What happened??? You have been writing novels here and now nothing when I ask for clarification on your credentials in posts 169, 170 and 172? Of course you also could be gardening as you have sarcasticly said to other truth seekers! Everyone is waiting for your rebuttal(s). For all the hubbalou you have gone on about the weather and calling people liers etc. it's time to come clean.....
I personally think you are the fellow trying to give disinfo here BUT you can change that by telling all of us about the square table you were at when CHEMTRAILS were supposedly pushed to the back burner. (As you say it's just a bunch of info to waste time with....) Sounds like you are speaking about all the pages everyone had to read from yourself that basically gave us nothing.........but a bad weather report!
Time to step up....................everyone is waiting.....................
Regards,
Chancy

:crazy_pilot:


Calz . . . . shame on you!! Oh good Lord . . . . I laughed so hard my tummy hurts.

You are a gem! :kiss:

[Bea]

posted by Trail
"..i've noticed a big reduction here in Holland.. since the radiation is flying over we often have beautifull blue skies.."

That's interesting Trail.
Did the chemtrails cease immediately the radiation arrived, or what?

[loveandgratitude]

Noticing More Blue Skies of Late? A Field Report from the Etheric Resistance (May 10, 2010)

On March 9, 2010, I posted a short article titled: "Has Chemtrail Spraying Suddenly Abated in Your Area?" to determine if there were any observable mitigation in chemtrail spraying activity in North America and in Europe. A very special team of Etheric Resistance fighters had caused the "de-activation" of a number of chemtrail spew planes, along with a handful of underground re-fueling bases in America and Europe, and the computer systems which were controlling those pilot-less, drone chemplanes on the weekend of March 6-7, 2010. That was the team's first shot across the bow directed at chemtrail poisoning operations and logistics support facilities.

Based on the feedback e-mail from readers in America and Europe, it seems there was an observable drop in chemtrail spraying activity for many areas, at least for the first 3 or 4 days following the March 6-7 "inauguration weekend." Some areas, like London, apparently did not experience any diminution of chemtrail activity, but that tells me that London is a very high priority targeting site for the Illuminated Ones and will require special attention (one British city, however, Bristol, did experience a spectacular return to sunny, blue skies and some residents there were happy to report the pleasant change from chemtrail overcasts. Most likely, high priority targets will begin to notice an improvement in blue skies as the chemtrail operations are further dismantled and approaching the final termination phase. While it's extremely risky to make any predictions, I think it's possible, based on current information, that chemtrail spraying may cease altogether within a year-or less. But don't hold me to it. It's just an educated guess).

Another chemtrail investigative visit took place by our intrepid team on or about March 23, 2010 when it was discovered that the dark side of the moon was also being used as a source of raw materials (e.g. barium, aluminum ) and as a parking/maintenance depot (underground) for the chemplanes-which are using older looking airframes-but outfitted with hyper-dimensional Jump gate technology that allow the planes to blink in and out of third dimension time/space and re-appear again in another location-almost instantly. It takes about one minute for one of these specially equipped chemplanes to hyper dimensionally jump from the moon to the earth

Due to the sudden attrition of the UFO style chemplanes in early March (and loss of AI central computer coordination), piloted chemplanes were then re-activated to give the impression that no let-up in chemtrail activity had occurred, but even these planes were now encountering a stepped-up neutralization effort from those who I will describe as "friendly forces".

Our Etheric Resistance team went into chemtrail neutralizing mode again on the weekend of May 8-9, 2010. They first took a look at Air Force bases around the world where an attempt was made by the Air Force to compensate for the unexpected de-activation of the traitors' underground, super secret, super high tech, antigravity "drum in a tube" design AI control computers by jury-rigging PCs with a supercomputer and fly their chemplanes manually. The Etheric team is sad to report that the Air Force's 'Plan B' chemtrail computer control systems are now also experiencing "technical difficulties" :-)

Next, the Etheric team returned to the moon to re-assess the damage control effected there since their previous visit and proceeded to de-activate additional antigravity Artificial Intelligence (AI) chemtrail computer system. On this occasion, the AI was described as having a:

"teardrop head in white shiny metal with red lights on, body tapers to a tip, the body is covered in circuit-board design in what looks like gold. This AI sent out commands to floating receiver computers stationed around it by firing what looked like laser beams of blue light which were encoded command signals. Quite swish.

I grabbed it, tore it out of its moorings and burst out the roof of the moon base. I then drop-kicked it into the Sun. For good measure I then created a kind of explosion (except without fire, more with gravity - an implosion perhaps?) in the moon crater that houses the chemplanes."

They next paid a courtesy call to Mars, where it was discovered that an exceedingly advanced computer system, described as a Stanley Kubrick style "monolith" design was beaming chemplane command information using a group of clam-shaped antennae located in a quadrant array around the monolith. The Etheric team leader described the scene as follows:

"I went to Mars and found their chemplane AI there - the Martian base (one of many) had a small topside section with a large underground facility which broke through into Egyptian/Mayan-esque ruins below ground. Archaeological dig sites all over the place. The AI was even more swish than the moon base one - a nine foot high black monolith with a thin green strip of light going down in the center of each side. On one face it had a circle of crimson that pulsed with energy about the size of a grapefruit.

The monolith had the processing power of all the earth-side AFB supercomputers and AI's put together. It was sending invisible signals to four "receivers" (looking like oyster-shell shaped metal speaker systems six feet high, one on each side, with a gap of about five feet from the monolith). Unlike the moon base AI there was no visible "laser ray" sending info, let alone a clunky metal tentacle. The monolith just pulsed and sent out commands, steering the entire chemplane fleet single handedly.

I punched it repeatedly until it broke. Victory for brute force."

(This field report also contained other interesting anecdotes which may be revealed at a later time, but this is the part that commented on chemtrail de-activation activities.)

As I mentioned in the March 9 article linked above, I understand that many people will find this unusual information hard to accept, since it reads like a Superman comic book, but I remind you that reality is far stranger than fiction. What we've all been told by the media propagandists and what we are taught in school is a far cry from the reality that exists on planet earth today. There is a small handful of individuals now alive on earth who possess extraordinary abilities. The Creator allowed these individuals to incarnate at this time in order to provide a remedy for the plight of billions of innocent and defenseless people who would otherwise perish from lack of knowledge and technical capabilities to overcome the Illuminated Beast's genocidal agendas.

Isaac Newton was not correct in all his postulates, but he was correct in this one: For every action, there is and equal and opposite reaction.

This rule not only applies to the physical world, but the spiritual dimension as well. Through thousands of years of Machiavellian machination and plotting, the Illuminati has now arrived at a level of power and technical advantage, that mankind-alone- would have no chance whatsoever to survive, without the assistance of extraordinary helpers who have leaned how to bend reality to their will in a higher dimension. If you want to look into this special arena of etheric resistance, then carefully study Jack London's tutorial,

How to Fight Monsters and Win (A Guidebook to Defeating Human, Alien, and Demonic Oppressors) July 4, 2009)
http://educate-yourself.org/cn/jacklondonhowtofightmonstersguidebook04jul09.shtml

and learn what it takes to get into the game. We need a few more Good Men ~ and Women!.

[observer]

Noticing More Blue Skies of Late? A Field Report from the Etheric Resistance (May 10, 2010) [....snip]

Thank you for interjecting that into the record, love.

Taking note: the article you quoted was published over a year ago, my answer to the question posed would have to be a resounding, NO. I live where this phenomenon is ever present. I live to the East of Washington, DC where a constant CHEMTRAIL screen is maintained for 'security purposes'. We must keep the 'reptiles in charge' safe from these scalar attacks, of course.

It is a pleasure to now be able to interject alternative speculation into this debate without that speculation being debased with volumes of dialogue on 'atmospheric conditions' - I'm sure for only a brief interlude, however.

Within the material you quoted from the Etheric Resistance (above) there is a very relevant observation:


"Another chemtrail investigative visit took place by our intrepid team on or about March 23, 2010 when it was discovered that the dark side of the moon was also being used as a source of raw materials (e.g. barium, aluminum ) and as a parking/maintenance depot (underground) for the chemplanes-which are using older looking airframes-but outfitted with hyper-dimensional Jump gate technology that allow the planes to blink in and out of third dimension time/space and re-appear again in another location-almost instantly. It takes about one minute for one of these specially equipped chemplanes to hyper dimensionally jump from the moon to the earth"

Earlier in this thread, Carmody touched on this very same phenomenon:

[....snip]
With respect to the idea of there being a battle at the dimensional level, the evidence, even on the most hard scientific tact or direction..the evidence for the potential is definitely there.

You just need to be introduced to the data.[....snip]

You might note brother Carmody was properly thrashed and dissed by a (now former) member.

This idea, that there is something 'off-planet' manipulating and directing this phenomenon is supported by the testimonies of Project Camelot interviewees, the likes of, Alex Collier, and John Lear (only to name a few). The idea is also supported by the individuals (about whom) this particular thread was started - David Icke, and Alex Jones.

Both Collier, Lear, and Icke, in particular, offer evidence of hyperdimensional activity on the dark side of the Moon - not to exclude the likes of Joseph Farrell and Richard Hoagland (and others). I might add, these individuals mentioned are in no way the only offering this kind of evidence. (do the research for yourself.... discern for yourself)

Don't allow your mind to be conditioned by those who would only be willing to look at one single explanation for a phenomenon to which there is overwhelming evidence to the contrary. Contrails, and CHEMTRAILS are not the same phenomenon....

[nomadguy]

I have a string of new info on this subject,
and I will say this, it is very likely that the metals, polymers and chemicals are parts of a nano-chip network, this is how I think they plan to chip us, in the most benign sort of way. Who is doing this is a good question.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CZ06xT_vFao&feature=youtu.be

>>> this may be a part of the puzzle, and involves iodine and hexane.
http://link.aip.org/link/?JCPSA6%2F18%2F658%2F1

[loveandgratitude]

DO NOT BE DISCOURAGED MY FRIENDS - HELP IS THERE WHEN YOU NEED IT.

Encouraging Sylphs to Neutralize Chemtrails Over Edmonton, Canada

[Editor's Note: If your area is being plastered with chemtrails so badly that you are getting chemtrail 'white outs', then you have to at least mentally INVITE Sylphs to come into your area and start transmuting those chemtrails back into real clouds with blue skies behind them. It's much easier for the Sylphs to do their work if you put up a few chembusters in your area so it can transmute the negative "DOR" environment created by the chemtrails, the microwave towers, and the HAARP towers and return your local atmosphere back towards a more positive "OR" orgone polarity. If you have no idea what I'm talking about, then read the primer on chembuster and atmospheric orgone polarities at this link: Goodbye Chemtrails, Hello Blue Skies (http://educate-yourself.org/ct/goodbyects10jan02.shtml)

When Sylphs try to enter an atmosphere loaded with horizon to horizon chemtrails and intense DOR polarity microwave fields from HAARP and cell phone towers, it's like trying to wade through knee deep mud while being zapped with electric shocks the whole time. It's painful and terribly fatiguing for Sylphs to enter such a poisonous and polluted zone. However, a chembuster changes the atmospheric orgone polarity so effectively that Sylphs find it much easier to clean up and transmute chemtrails. If you can't put up a chembuster, at least make the small muffin size tower buster and gift the local cell phone towers-which will convert them from DOR transmitters into OR transmitters, and again make it easier on the Sylphs. In all cases, with or without orgone generators, mentally send the Sylphs your requests and support and you WILL get a response from them. ..Ken]

http://educate-yourself.org/lte/encouragingsylphsedmontoncanada27nov07.shtml
November 27, 2007

Encouraging Sylphs to Neutralize Chemtrails Over Edmonton, Canada (Nov. 27, 2007)

Subject: chemtrails
From: Pam
Date: Tue, November 27, 2007
To: Editor

Thank you for the information on sylphs I am a sky watcher and analyzer for as long as I can remember. The sky now where I live, is a whitewash and a fraud. Contrails are confused with chemtrails because people are too busy or cannot remember. I am 44 years old and I have intently looked at the sky since my teens. We are robbed of sunshine every day vital to well being.

This is Greedyberg Alberta Canada. I have seen the formations I can only hope that it is true CHEERS SYLPHS.

Observation IS the scientific method.

Love not fear

Pam
Edmonton,Alberta Canada

Related

Subject: Sylphs Doing Their Work in Kota Baru, Malaysia
From: Asralfarhi
Date: Tue, November 27, 2007
To: Editor

I would like to relate my own experience in witnessing these sylphs doing their work in clearing our skies. I was on my way to a roadshow in Kota Baru, Kelantan, Malaysia on 16th November 2007. It was about 6.30pm. It was a glorious evening seeing clear blue skies until I saw planes on southward routes spewing ugly chemtrails in successive intervals. Just imagine in a time span of no more than 30 minutes, I saw 4, what seems to be commercial flights unleashing chemtrails in the clear blue sky.

Having my newfound knowledge about mind power to heal our environment and armed with my newly acquired PeBal (Orgonite), I tried focused intent in making those ugly things go away. Then a mother of all sylphs materialized and started to engulf them trails. It was a sight to behold. What made it sweeter, I felt blessed when I was given the opportunity to see a smaller sylph that materialized in the form of bird, a Heron to be precise. I managed to take a picture of this beautiful spectacle.

Could you get an email address so that I could send this beautiful picture and share it to the world? If only more people knew what's going on over their heads (literally).

Surely enough I saw more planes that on the same southernly route spewing more chemtrails. I told my wife "They just don't quit, do they?" Mentally, I told my new sylph friends, "Thank you my friends, go get them. Do your thing!".

http://educate-yourself.org/lte/encouragingsylphsedmontoncanada27nov07.shtml


The truth is my friends, you are more powerful than you think. Next time you see chemtrails, call in the SLYPHS. "CALLING ALL SYLPHS.........CALLING ALL SYLPHS" "PLEASE CLEAN UP THE AIR"

Then watch, just wait and watch, you will be amazed to find beauftiul sylphs gliding through the sky and start breaking up the chemtrails. TRY IT FOR YOURSELF AND SEE. This is your power you are reclaiming.

7474

[nomadguy]

http://curezone.com/forums/fm.asp?i=1793600
this just in - "contents of chemtrails jets have changed, it is now incl. plutonium"

[Calz]

Michael J. Murphy (maker of the "What in the World are They Spraying" movie) was on Coast to Coast radio last night for a superb update on a lot of information and studies that have come out recently.

Will try to follow up and post the interview when/if someone puts it up on utube ... but in the meanwhile here is a recent video update he talked about on the show (below)


From C2C site:


In the latter half, journalist, filmmaker and political activist Michael J. Murphy talked about new evidence for chemtrail spraying and geo-engineering. The very weird weather patterns we've recently been experiencing could be related to climate control, geo-engineering, and chemtrail spraying, he suggested. Weather modification is nothing new, and was used for military purposes by the US as far back as in Viet Nam, he noted. Project HAARP has the ability to heat up over 200 square miles of the sky with metal particulates, creating high & low pressure systems, and actually steering storms, he stated.

According to meteorologist Scott Stevens, heavy spraying is taking place about 1,000 miles ahead of storms, Murphy reported. Testing of rain has revealed high levels of aluminum oxide that has vastly increased over the last seven years, he continued, adding that such toxic aluminum exposure could be connected to the rise in Alzheimer's. Further, blood testing of some Arizona residents revealed toxic levels of barium and aluminum (said to be components of chemtrails). For more, visit The Coalition Against Geo-Engineering.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M-0XEQP3igk

From another thread ... applies to those with open minds here.

[loveandgratitude]

Great News - for the peoples. Together we can all make a difference.

Thank you for this wonderfu video. A MUST WATCH. It affects all of us, our children, our grand children. Please get involved at a GRASS ROOTS LEVEL.

7502

[Maia Gabrial]

A skunk by any other name still stinks....
Peace,
Maia

[nomadguy]

"Nanosemiconductors", can be made with a variety of different minerals and designed or ion-etched particles.
They are made by scintillating various polymers and metals in to powders then collected into a little disc and are then sold to various corps like DARP-A and Ran-d such. However these can be "custom made" for whomever. this is technology and an industry all very real.

the learning curve is immensely steep here, anyone who says they KNOW what this ~ is either full of BS or their EGO is overactive.

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&client=firefox-a&hs=UZZ&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&sa=X&ei=xIXUTdfwIpKmsQPC24zWBw&ved=0CBUQBSgA&q=Nanosemiconductors&spell=1#sclient=psy&hl=en&client=firefox-a&hs=oHu&rls=org.mozilla:en-US%3Aofficial&source=hp&q=nanosemiconductors%2C+scintillator%2C+oxide&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.&fp=1f2e28122e4ae045

[DoubleHelix]

It appears Fred259 has got an answer for everything we seem to throw at him! I value your dedication and input Fred, there are a lot of misconceptions about this phenomenon.

I do however believe that Chemtrails exist.. but ill put my personal opinion aside.

I'd like to take this opportunity to ask if there's anybody on this forum that can come up with with some actual evidence, undeniable proof or witness testimonies that stand up to scrutiny!

Until then we'll continue to go round in circles folks.

DoubleHelix,

Aside from the evidence I posted in the original thread (before the threads were separated) and found at the link posted in this comment:

[....snip]

Here is the most telling evidence of all. This is a link to the Library of Congress printing of House Bill number H.R. 2977. Please take note of Section 7, 2(B)(ii):
http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c107:H.R.2977.IH:


Aside from observers smoking gun - In answer to my own questions, I'll point you in the direction of my post on the other chemtrail thread Mr. Freddy 259. This video contains the most comprehensive body of evidence pertaining to the chemtrail subject. I'd advise you check it out once you get a chance and we look forward to your reply upon returning from your vacation

http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?19092-David-Icke-Alex-Jones-Stewart-Swerdlow-Chemtrails-bloody-everywhere%21%21&p=223685&viewfull=1#post223685

[cloud9]

I'm just amazed at how a subject like this, where we can see with our own eyes, it's out there for all to see and still some people don't want to SEE.

Why bother? Meanwhile they keep spraying on us....

[jc71]

Thought everyone might be interested in this:

FiUMfsR28SM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FiUMfsR28SM&feature=player_embedded

This is not relating to commercial aircraft, but if they can do it from military jets, then it can be done from larger aircraft presumably.

Do you think it is possible to mix additional elements into the jet fuel so that they come out in the contrails - i.e. converting normal contrails to chemtrails?

Just a thought. I am not an expert by any means.

J

[Cidersomerset]

Hi all I'm new to the forum but like many have been following Bill & Kerry from almost day one . Now I'm here the chemtrail threads are one of the ones I have been waiting to comment on...
I have been a postman for the past four years and am outside most days. Chemtrails caught my attention about three years ago , from an article/vid I read somewhere on the web about Mt Shasta.
I started looking up and within a couple days the difference between Contrail & chemtrails became as clear to as night & Day...
I have been monitoring the sky every day and when the tankers go over spraying its usually leaves a milky screen sometimes developing into a thick cloudy covering.
They do not go over this area Bridgwater Somererset UK every day. Sometimes it may be once a week ,othertimes several days on the trot.
If there is already cloud cover you can hear the planes go over but have no way of knowing if they are still spraying.
It depends if they are cloud seeding or creating a grid for over the horizon deepwater submarine communication , I saw that on a good vid by a man who said he had invented a ground penatrating radar to look for
oil & minerals commercialy underground in the 1990's and HAARP had something to do with it by bouncing waves up into the high atmosphere and doing something with them, Anyway need to find that video
If that rings a bell with anyone maybe they can link it as I don't know how yet...

I'd Like to thank FRED 259 for his tenacity and his arguements are sound concerning coventional aircraft and weather patterns and his experiance as a pilot gives him every wright to deffend his corner till he is blue in the face.

Fred 259 gave us a great new toy and I sugget everyone interested in the subject save it to favorites....Thats planefinder.net And a similar site Flightradar.com.
These sites tell you all the commercial flights going over your area so if your near your computor you can see if the plane above you is chemtrailing or just the normal couple of minutes contrailing and if they are not on the screen they must be up to something....
cheers Steve

[Cidersomerset]

Hi again Now for todays encounter Tuesday 24th may 2011 Going in to work this morning 7.30 am the sky was clear blue except for two or three chemtrails and it looked like it was going to be a classic spraying day.
Sure enough by 9.30am the sky outside was criss /crossed with trails and as I proceeded to do my round among the normal contrailing jet liners that pass over fairly regularly.Tankers were steadily putting a mikly screen up across the sky.
blocking out the sun.
When I got back home 2.00pm the tankers are still spraying and I've checked planefinder.com and it is not on there....So that is even more proof for me (not that I needed it)


"CHEMTRAILS ARE REAL AND NOT A FIGMENT OF MY IMAGINATION"
Cheers Steve the postie...

[Cidersomerset]

HI All update 3.00pm another tanker going over my house not on planefinder

Cheers Steve

[Cidersomerset]

Hi JC 71 Thanks for vid something out is better than nothing, but its not fighter jets trailing as we all know may be a honest mistake just put in for effect. Still its calmed down here the wind which has been quite strong all day has blown some of them trails eastwards, but not all. The sun is out and it is a lovely evening.....cheers Steve.

[K626]

Thought everyone might be interested in this:

FiUMfsR28SM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FiUMfsR28SM&feature=player_embedded

This is not relating to commercial aircraft, but if they can do it from military jets, then it can be done from larger aircraft presumably.

Do you think it is possible to mix additional elements into the jet fuel so that they come out in the contrails - i.e. converting normal contrails to chemtrails?

Just a thought. I am not an expert by any means.

J

This has been around for about a year this vid and its a distraction ie military experiment and so on...The chemtrailing of Germany is nothing of the kind it is massive in its scope and
done all through the summer months from huge tanker planes (based in Belgium and of American origin). You can hardly see the sun on summer days once it gets to the afternoon.

cheers

K

[nearing]

Excuse me if this has already been posted, but I don't have time to read all of these pages to find out. This credentialed and respected scientist says chemtrails indeed do exist and are being used for weather modification (so is HAARP).

Sorry, Fred, you are wrong on this issue. But I love you none-the-less.

I0JhrDgepyk

[Fred259]

Excuse me if this has already been posted, but I don't have time to read all of these pages to find out. This credentialed and respected scientist says chemtrails indeed do exist and are being used for weather modification (so is HAARP).

Sorry, Fred, you are wrong on this issue. But I love you none-the-less.

I0JhrDgepyk

With respect I am not wrong, just don’t worry about them.

What has happened is that as the size of contrails have increased due to larger engines, and the rapid increase of air traffic over the last decade, those who seek to control your mind invented this ludicrous notion that aircraft were capable of spraying a human population. This is grossly irresponsible as aircraft have no means whatsoever to do this. You just have to accept that this is sound engineering fact.

The second point relating to the video is that you have to understand this man has been brought in to promote chemtrails. They want you to believe this. They want to control you. They want to make you scared. If you listen carefully all he is doing is reading from a paper and from time to time providing an explanation. I could do that and so could you. It’s quite ridiculous.

Turning to the question of weather modification. I agree provided the correct atmospheric conditions exist, excessive contrails will in time spread to cirrostratus clouds or a covering. This is a problem and engine manufacturers are working to find a solution to eliminate this. It does need to be clearly understood that excessive cloud cover is not caused by any chemicals though; rather it’s a natural formation.

What this is Nearing is complete misinformation. You never used to believe in this nonsense so why now? You think you are awake and informed about these issues, but in reality you have been fooled, they are dumbing you down.

The ptp now have you under control. This is further confirmed where you add at the end of your sentence (so is HAARP) How do you know that HAARP is capable of weather modification? Where you involved in the project? Do you have any serious scientific papers on the subject? HAARP just like chemtrails is another grossly overstated scare tactic. I have no idea what HAARP is all about, however I do understand VLF, I’ve even used VLF on many occasions, so I do struggle to understand how a radio wave can be used to modify the weather?

What you must do is think with a clear head and ask yourself, do I want to be controlled in this way. If the answer is yes then continue being dumbed down. My contribution on this thread is to stop you being dumbed down and to get you to think for yourself, just as you did before they introduced all this nonsense.

The sad reality is that you could spend a lifetime being concerned about something that is perfectly natural. When you go to your grave you will be worrying about chemtrails. The contrails aren’t ever going to be going away, so the sooner you stop believing this nonsense the better, not for my benefit but for yours. Don’t be a victim don’t allow the ptb to control you. They are not as powerful as they would like you to think. Stay safe….

[nearing]

Excuse me if this has already been posted, but I don't have time to read all of these pages to find out. This credentialed and respected scientist says chemtrails indeed do exist and are being used for weather modification (so is HAARP).

Sorry, Fred, you are wrong on this issue. But I love you none-the-less.

I0JhrDgepyk

With respect I am not wrong, just don’t worry about them.

What has happened is that as the size of contrails have increased due to larger engines, and the rapid increase of air traffic over the last decade, those who seek to control your mind invented this ludicrous notion that aircraft were capable of spraying a human population. This is grossly irresponsible as aircraft have no means whatsoever to do this. You just have to accept that this is sound engineering fact.

The second point relating to the video is that you have to understand this man has been brought in to promote chemtrails. They want you to believe this. They want to control you. They want to make you scared. If you listen carefully all he is doing is reading from a paper and from time to time providing an explanation. I could do that and so could you. It’s quite ridiculous.

Turning to the question of weather modification. I agree provided the correct atmospheric conditions exist, excessive contrails will in time spread to cirrostratus clouds or a covering. This is a problem and engine manufacturers are working to find a solution to eliminate this. It does need to be clearly understood that excessive cloud cover is not caused by any chemicals though; rather it’s a natural formation.

What this is Nearing is complete misinformation. You never used to believe in this nonsense so why now? You think you are awake and informed about these issues, but in reality you have been fooled, they are dumbing you down.

The ptp now have you under control. This is further confirmed where you add at the end of your sentence (so is HAARP) How do you know that HAARP is capable of weather modification? Where you involved in the project? Do you have any serious scientific papers on the subject? HAARP just like chemtrails is another grossly overstated scare tactic. I have no idea what HAARP is all about, however I do understand VLF, I’ve even used VLF on many occasions, so I do struggle to understand how a radio wave can be used to modify the weather?

What you must do is think with a clear head and ask yourself, do I want to be controlled in this way. If the answer is yes then continue being dumbed down. My contribution on this thread is to stop you being dumbed down and to get you to think for yourself, just as you did before they introduced all this nonsense.

The sad reality is that you could spend a lifetime being concerned about something that is perfectly natural. When you go to your grave you will be worrying about chemtrails. The contrails aren’t ever going to be going away, so the sooner you stop believing this nonsense the better, not for my benefit but for yours. Don’t be a victim don’t allow the ptb to control you. They are not as powerful as they would like you to think. Stay safe….

Fred, who said that I was worried about them? I am not. I know that TPTW are acting like rats backed into a corner and throwing ALL of their weapons at us. I find it a little amusing. They have already lost.

But the fact remains that these things are real. it is happening.

[Fred259]

Fred, who said that I was worried about them? I am not. I know that TPTW are acting like rats backed into a corner and throwing ALL of their weapons at us. I find it a little amusing. They have already lost.

But the fact remains that these things are real. it is happening.

No, I say again they are not real. They are not spraying. It’s not happening. Period.

You have No evidence other that a complete load of rubbish posted on forums.

You do not know what you are talking about, but you absolutely insist you are right because you have been conditioned. That’s my point..

Post on something you know about, that you can share… anything but don’t make irresponsible statements on subjects you know nothing about. Is that not reasonable….

[jc71]

Hi K626,

Apologies if everyone has already seen this. I am new to this subject based on what I notice in the skies in South East England.

I can add that tonight, the skies are as bad as I have ever seen. And it looks like chemtrails to me. It could of course be partly volcanic cloud, but I don't think so.

So I agree with you.

What I can't quite yet believe is that the planes are spraying from independent spraying devices as per the earlier youtube on this thread. The planes I see are making what look like normal contrails until you see that they linger around and spread into a mist that you can see for minutes, sometimes hours afterwards and look like they are falling closer to the ground. I have pictures from tonight that might show this to some extent.

I was wondering in my last post: "Could there be elements being added to normal aviation fuel that behave differently to the way they did in the past"? I would be interested if anyone has any thoughts or knowledge of that.

Thanks for trying to help me understand. I want to believe it is natural as per Fred's stance. I am currently not fully convinced.

Regards,

J



Thought everyone might be interested in this:

FiUMfsR28SM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FiUMfsR28SM&feature=player_embedded

This is not relating to commercial aircraft, but if they can do it from military jets, then it can be done from larger aircraft presumably.

Do you think it is possible to mix additional elements into the jet fuel so that they come out in the contrails - i.e. converting normal contrails to chemtrails?

Just a thought. I am not an expert by any means.

J

This has been around for about a year this vid and its a distraction ie military experiment and so on...The chemtrailing of Germany is nothing of the kind it is massive in its scope and
done all through the summer months from huge tanker planes (based in Belgium and of American origin). You can hardly see the sun on summer days once it gets to the afternoon.

cheers

K

[nearing]

Fred, who said that I was worried about them? I am not. I know that TPTW are acting like rats backed into a corner and throwing ALL of their weapons at us. I find it a little amusing. They have already lost.

But the fact remains that these things are real. it is happening.

No, I say again they are not real. They are not spraying. It’s not happening. Period.

You have No evidence other that a complete load of rubbish posted on forums.

You do not know what you are talking about, but you absolutely insist you are right because you have been conditioned. That’s my point..

Post on something you know about, that you can share… anything but don’t make irresponsible statements on subjects you know nothing about. Is that not reasonable….

Fred, there is a man, named Clifford Carnicom, who lives in my town. Have you heard of him?


the founder and President of the Carnicom Institute, a non-profit research and educational organization that is devoted to environmental and health issues. Clifford also worked as a technical research scientist acting in a professional capacity supporting analysis and development of major Department of Defense physical and weapons modeling systems, with extensive computer programming and system application development experience. He has held a Top Secret/SCI clearance. He was appointed for and completed two years of intensive graduate level studies in mathematics, statistics, computer science, and geodesy under the auspices of the Department of Defense.

Clifford has been a federal employee of the United States government for 15 years within 3 agencies, including the Department of Defense, The Bureau of Land Management, and the United States Forest Service.

Clifford was the Defense Mapping Agency Aerospace Center Employee of the Year, Supervisor of the Year, and he received the Geodetic Sciences Departmental Award for outstanding technical, managerial, and cost effective performance.



I think he has the creds, along with his colleagues at eh Institute, to make the claim that they are spraying and what is in this spray isn't good for humans. You may want to take a look at his site and see if he knows what he is talking about since you seems to think I am conditioned and am irresponsible.

Here is his site:

Carnicom Institute (http://www.carnicominstitute.org/bio.html)

There are a number of articles there.

And Fred, although you have personally attacked me and my character - I still love you.

[dan i el]

[QUOTE]

You have No evidence other that a complete load of rubbish posted on forums.


Contrail Science devotees akin to Jazzroc et al are often, if not always, want to use repetitious circular arguments appropriating science to quash valid observations. That is my opinion.

As a pilot and a proponent/advocate of pure science and theory, Fred259, could you answer a simple question asked from an alterior perspective of logic and simple observation?

Q: Can supersaturation occur within a matter of moments? Further, is it realistic to claim that the effects of Rayleigh scattering ( ie. light refraction conditions allowing higher visibility of aircraft) can occur simultaneously with rapid supersaturation?

eg. relatively clear sky then in a matter of literally 10 minutes or less, over a score of clearly observable aircraft each leaving persistent trails in curves "x's" etc which then coalesce into a cirrostratus covering across the visible sky.

I will rephrase the question in efforts to ensure clarity:

Can supersaturation occur extremely rapidly in a matter of 10 minutes or less and if you say that is possible, is it likely that the effects of Rayleigh scattering be simultaneously observed and this on innumerable occasions at more often than not, closely around the same times of day.

thanks

[jc71]

Hi Steve,

Yes fair point. Maybe it was a bit off topic. But I guess that the technology being used might be quite similar. Delivery from a larger plane would presumably be easier than from a jet. It is a response to some earlier posts that say this type of thing is not possible.

Something is happening in our skies for sure. What it is or it what it means is not entirely clear.

It could be to help us, it could be to harm us, it could be to cool down the earth, it could be to warm up the earth, it could be to reflect hologram UFOs, it could be to poison the ground, it could be a figment of my imagination. I don't know the answers. That is what I am hoping to learn more about on this this thread.

Thanks for sharing your info. I will continue to share mine for what it is worth :-)

Regards,

J


Hi JC 71 Thanks for vid something out is better than nothing, but its not fighter jets trailing as we all know may be a honest mistake just put in for effect. Still its calmed down here the wind which has been quite strong all day has blown some of them trails eastwards, but not all. The sun is out and it is a lovely evening.....cheers Steve.

[Fred259]

Fred, there is a man, named Clifford Carnicom, who lives in my town. Have you heard of him?

The founder and President of the Carnicom Institute, a non-profit research and educational organization that is devoted to environmental and health issues. Clifford also worked as a technical research scientist acting in a professional capacity supporting analysis and development of major Department of Defense physical and weapons modeling systems, with extensive computer programming and system application development experience. He has held a Top Secret/SCI clearance. He was appointed for and completed two years of intensive graduate level studies in mathematics, statistics, computer science, and geodesy under the auspices of the Department of Defense.
Clifford has been a federal employee of the United States government for 15 years within 3 agencies, including the Department of Defense, The Bureau of Land Management, and the United States Forest Service.
Clifford was the Defense Mapping Agency Aerospace Center Employee of the Year, Supervisor of the Year, and he received the Geodetic Sciences Departmental Award for outstanding technical, managerial, and cost effective performance.

I think he has the creds, along with his colleagues at eh Institute, to make the claim that they are spraying and what is in this spray isn't good for humans. You may want to take a look at his site and see if he knows what he is talking about

Yes I have studied Carnicom in great details. He is a very knowledgeable and clever person but sadly disinformation agent working for the other side spreading this nonsense. He knows precisely what he is doing and is very very clever about it. If you scroll back the details are on this thread

I would love to meet with these people face to face and expose them for what they are.


Since you seems to think I am conditioned and am irresponsible.

I didn’t say that, I said don’t be conditioned by this rubbish dont believe it, why be a victim. I didn’t say you were irresponsible. I said they were irresponsible.



And Fred, although you have personally attacked me and my character - I still love you.
I have not attacked you. I have been very clear in what I have said. The fact that you accuse me of attacking you explains the way you are thinking. If you don’t like my message it’s an attack, a strange looking cloud its HAARP, a contrail becomes a chemtrail.

Write about your home state I would be really interested in learning about where you live and new things…. anything rather than reading something you’ve just copied from Carnicom for example!

[nearing]

Me:
Since you seems to think I am conditioned and am irresponsible.

You:

I didn’t say that, I said don’t be conditioned by this rubbish dont believe it, why be a victim. I didn’t say you were irresponsible. I said they were irresponsible. I have not attacked you.




You have No evidence other that a complete load of rubbish posted on forums.

You do not know what you are talking about, but you absolutely insist you are right because you have been conditioned. That’s my point..

Post on something you know about, that you can share… anything but don’t make irresponsible statements on subjects you know nothing about. Is that not reasonable….

Clearly you did attack my character AND you said I was conditioned and that I was being irresponsible.

I don't know where you get off doing this on a forum such as this, but I am not here to fight. I am also not about to go and take photos of the chemtrails here and upload them or give you case histories of patients here who have fallen victim to them all to appease you. And I know Mr Carnicom and he is a very upstanding individual, and not at all what you accuse him of being. Shame on you. I am wondering about YOUR motives with all of this.

I can and will say ANYTHING I choose to here. If you don't like it, then I suggest that you not read my posts.

We have nothing more to say to each other, so don't bother. Love to you and yours.

[dan i el]

Pretty simple questions, Fred and I wasn't being rude. If you are debunking a theory for the greater good, then please show due diligence in answering all civil questions.

[Referee]

What about the de classified cloud seeding in the Vietnam War. The US has admitted that they intentionally extended the monsoon by four or so weeks? I am sure they need planes that were capable in doing so with military efficiency. If the US had the technology then you KNOW it is vastly superior by now.

[Fred259]

[QUOTE=Fred259;227307][QUOTE]

[QUOTE]Q: Can supersaturation occur within a matter of moments? Further, is it realistic to claim that the effects of Rayleigh scattering ( ie. light refraction conditions allowing higher visibility of aircraft) can occur simultaneously with rapid supersaturation?

eg. relatively clear sky then in a matter of literally 10 minutes or less, over a score of clearly observable aircraft each leaving persistent trails in curves "x's" etc which then coalesce into a cirrostratus covering across the visible sky.

I will rephrase the question in efforts to ensure clarity:

Can supersaturation occur extremely rapidly in a matter of 10 minutes or less and if you say that is possible, is it likely that the effects of Rayleigh scattering be simultaneously observed and this on innumerable occasions at more often than not, closely around the same times of day.

Yes. However saturated atmosphere might be a few minutes only, I would tend to say much less. If it’s supersaturated it will be instantly.



7723

Rayleigh scattering, Yes I would agree with you Daniel, scattering can and will change appearances. The degree of change will be proportional to speed, and angle of azimuth.

[Fred259]

Pretty simple questions, Fred and I wasn't being rude. If you are debunking a theory for the greater good, then please show due diligence in answering all civil questions.

Sorry… I was just putting the car in the garage before the nagging starts !

[Fred259]

What about the de classified cloud seeding in the Vietnam War. The US has admitted that they intentionally extended the monsoon by four or so weeks? I am sure they need planes that were capable in doing so with military efficiency. If the US had the technology then you KNOW it is vastly superior by now.

I agree, I have a friend who went cloud seeding (a women I might add) in Niger, so yes this is not unheard of in developing nations, and the US of course.

Weather, clouds etc are created in the troposphere that is up to around 18,000 feet, above that the relative humidity decreases rapidly, the air is dry and very cold. This is why high altitude clouds are generally very thin and sparse.

I understand that generally cloud seeding takes place around 10,000feet.

[Referee]

I think you are missing one point in all of this they are adding energy via microwave in to this equation. They excite the moisture and then seed it. The vapor rises and this factor allows more particles to mass together through ionization. by exciting them they can hold them in the air and build the system.

You can theoretically reach normal supersaturation and it will rain instantly however, when you introduce energy you can manipulate the threshold of supersaturation. Holding it in the atmosphere longer.

[Fred259]

And I know Mr Carnicom and he is a very upstanding individual, and not at all what you accuse him of being. Shame on you. I am wondering about YOUR motives with all of this.

I agreed with you about Carnicom nearing, I said he was very knowledgeable and very clever. He knows precisely what he is talking about. The problem is he takes known scientific fact and applies the opposite. Often this might just be the change of a word which gives a completely different meaning. In addition he argues that relative humidity is a deception with is 100% red flag I have to say. Without relative humidity life would not exist on this planet.

[Arrowwind]

I came out of work one day around noon, a beautiful sunny day to find the sky above Salt Lake City criss crossed with what I believed were chem trails. It looked like a freaking checkerboard box design... the flight path to the international airport is about 5 miles away.. I watch flights go in and out of there al the time in a south to north or visa vera pattern across salt lake..... few contrails from the large airliners, never mind what I saw this day. It took a full 1.5 hours for this pattern to dissolve.

I spent some time in Mexico recently in San Miguel Allende... You hardly ever see or hear a plane go over this city.
One morning I got up very early, at the crack of dawn and looked out my door. The sky was filled with 7 huge trails.. very wide going from horizon to horizon in different directions... blazing pink in the sunrise color. Soon they were gone and none seen for the remaining month I was there..

Those who think contrails and chemtrails are the same I would say are quite ill prepared to deal with life... as their denial will keep them forever from finding reality. There is immense documenation of the issue now. Will I dig it up for you? No way. I've better things to do with my day. If you are in denial you will never find documentation anyway no matter what I present to you or even by those who have done the dirty deed and are spilling the beans.

like the ostrich with the head in the sand, that cannot find the world that surrounds him daily

Denial is more than a river in Egypt

[Fred259]

I think you are missing one point in all of this they are adding energy via microwave in to this equation. They excite the moisture and then seed it. The vapor rises and this factor allows more particles to mass together through ionization. by exciting them they can hold them in the air and build the system.

You can theoretically reach normal supersaturation and it will rain instantly however, when you introduce energy you can manipulate the threshold of supersaturation. Holding it in the atmosphere longer.

Sorry Referee, yes I was missing the point, I thought you were referring to aerial applications. But yes I agree with the Microwave. I would think your explanation here would support whatever HAARP is. I can’t understand how the other end of the RF spectrum can change weather, but I agree that perhaps SHF might be able to. Do you happen to know?

[dan i el]

Pretty simple questions, Fred and I wasn't being rude. If you are debunking a theory for the greater good, then please show due diligence in answering all civil questions.

Sorry… I was just putting the car in the garage before the nagging starts !

no worries, i just thought as it was the second time I asked...

The whole visible skyline would supersaturate instantly? I got sidetracked and am going offline now..I will reply though when online. Thanks for the reply.

[Fred259]

[QUOTE]Pretty simple questions, Fred and I wasn't being rude. If you are debunking a theory for the greater good, then please show due diligence in answering all civil questions.

Sorry… I was just putting the car in the garage before the nagging starts !

no worries, i just thought as it was the second time I asked...

The whole visible skyline would supersaturate instantly? I got sidetracked and am going offline now..I will reply though when online. Thanks for the reply.

Sorry Daniel you did mention Rayleigh about two weeks ago, Im sorry I don’t reply then.

You asked if supersaturation can occur over say 10 minutes and Im saying no instantly. If the air is SS it will be instantly. The atmosphere can no longer hold moisture in a gaseous state, and so clouds and contrails will form. You have now come back and said the whole skyline, and the answer is still yes provided the whole skyline is supersaturated.

Conversely if the air over central London is supersaturated clouds will form. However over the north circular for example 10 miles away the air might not be supersaturated and so no clouds will form. It depends what you mean by the whole visible skyline from your office at the top floor of the SIS building for example!


The problem we face is not chemtrails, rather depleted uranium. It has come to light that every air force in Europe now uses DU munitions on the only live firing range in Europe namely Cape Wrath at the top left hand corner of Scotland.

About 200 meters from the shore exist a large rock, about the size of a small aircraft carrier, and the rock is continually attacked with live munitions. Cape Wrath is about 400 miles from London, and so with a northerly wind or even a low or high preassure system spend DU is being spread around. If the winds are westerly Scandinavian is about 400 miles also, and so this needs to be considered. Then we have the situation in Libya.

Recently MP Joan Bakewell jumped to her feet in the House of Commons and asked a very direct question to foreign secretary William Haig “Are you using DU munitions in Libya?” Haig was taken back and replied with the lie no of course not……..

This is what gulf syndrome is…so the soldier comes home, eight weeks later his wife’s pregnant, its in her bloodstream now and in the fetus. Now three lives are tarnished…

Back to topic.

[Referee]

I am no expert I am just thinking out loud. If any one who is a Chemist feel free to correct me.

Some people believe they are spraying Aluminium oxide. AL2 O3. Aluminium oxide is an electrical insulator but has a relatively high thermal conductivity (30 Wm−1K−1[4]). Aluminum oxide also is widely used to remove water from gas streams. I think you get a two fold effect with the addition of heat via microwaves. The Aluminum oxide conducts the heat introduced by the microwaves and acts to pull the water out of the atmosphere forming clouds. As you continue the process you add more an more water pulled out and the heat slightly excites the water molecules heat rises until a threshold is reached.

If you want to make an existing cloud even bigger this process can be used to do so. The chem-trailing is needed to spread out the heat in a horizontal layer effect. Microwaves on their own can only effect a small area of a horizontal semi circular layer of atmosphere. Thus the criss-cross patterns we see. Aluminum oxide exists in a fibrous crystalline state

I hope this helps anyone please feel free to correct my thinking.



PS
imperfect purification of Aluminum oxide can lead to chromium mixed in to it this may be why there are reports of higher than normal levels of Chromium on Mt. Shasta CA (in snow samples).

PPS Aluminium oxide is widely used in the fabrication of superconducting devices, particularly single electron transistors and superconducting quantum interference devices (SQUID), where it is used to form highly resistive quantum tunneling barriers.

[Calz]

Michael J. Murphy (maker of the "What in the World are They Spraying" movie) was on Coast to Coast radio last night for a superb update on a lot of information and studies that have come out recently.

Will try to follow up and post the interview when/if someone puts it up on utube ... but in the meanwhile here is a recent video update he talked about on the show (below)


From C2C site:


In the latter half, journalist, filmmaker and political activist Michael J. Murphy talked about new evidence for chemtrail spraying and geo-engineering. The very weird weather patterns we've recently been experiencing could be related to climate control, geo-engineering, and chemtrail spraying, he suggested. Weather modification is nothing new, and was used for military purposes by the US as far back as in Viet Nam, he noted. Project HAARP has the ability to heat up over 200 square miles of the sky with metal particulates, creating high & low pressure systems, and actually steering storms, he stated.

According to meteorologist Scott Stevens, heavy spraying is taking place about 1,000 miles ahead of storms, Murphy reported. Testing of rain has revealed high levels of aluminum oxide that has vastly increased over the last seven years, he continued, adding that such toxic aluminum exposure could be connected to the rise in Alzheimer's. Further, blood testing of some Arizona residents revealed toxic levels of barium and aluminum (said to be components of chemtrails). For more, visit The Coalition Against Geo-Engineering.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M-0XEQP3igk

From another thread ... applies to those with open minds here.

Finally a follow up on the C2C interview:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y8iKb4KX9i8&feature=related

For those interested here are the links (to save space) for the other 5 parts:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L2ukrmpC5MI&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jzLi5o6ZA94&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yAyVoHx84fw&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DRnD0h18aHU&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1PoZTz-95Bo&feature=related

[nomadguy]

hmmm I wonder if these so-called chemtails are meant to be out of this world?? "ion cyclotron resonance"
- cesiumhttp://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&q=ion+cyclotron+resonance%2C+cesium&btnG=Search&as_sdt=0%2C29&as_ylo=&as_vis=1
- INTRODUCTION
RADIOACTIVE BEAM DEVELOPMENTS
Direct multicharged ionization
Charge-breeding
Ion sources and TISS developments for SPIRAL II
STABLE BEAM DEVELOPMENTS
Cesium and iodine
Calcium (recycling)
Uranium
GTS ion source

http://rsi.aip.org/resource/1/rsinak/v81/i2/p02A909_s1?isAuthorized=no

[Maia Gabrial]

A skunk by any other name still stinks. CONTRAILS. CHEMTRAILS. (ToMAYto, toMAto). Does it really matter what it's called? Both pollute the skies and one of them is hazardous to our health.

IMO, the chemtrails (Project CLOVERLEAF) are intentionally released pollutants. I'm no expert, but I witness what the damn things do to my skies and how it's affecting the people around here. I've been affected by the smell of it, too. My lungs would hurt. Or my skin would break out.
One particular day, there were chemtrails (again). It wasn't until after it rained that I noticed a very bright, yellow residue on 4 roof tops that wasn't there before. Ever....(It's noticeable from the 3rd floor looking down).
What can I say? I don't see the advantages of chemtrials....
Maia

[nomadguy]

this made its way into my inbox today:

INVESTIGATORS WANTED

Can Chemtrails be proved?

It seems that the die-hard skeptics refuse to believe what they see with their own eyes. No matter how many laboratory tests we collect, they always seem to come up with a theory that, no matter how far fetched it is, would explain the high levels of aluminum, barium, and strontium as merely due to some climate condition or error in preparing the chemical sample or some unintended human interaction.

SKI SLOPE THEORY
When we released our documentary, What in the World Are They Spraying, we included snow samples taken from Mt. Shasta in Northern California, which contained toxic levels of these metals. Since snow in merely frozen rain water, it was clear that this came from the sky and not from the soil or water run-off from some toxic waste dump. Nevertheless, an Internet debunker challenged our conclusion by claiming that people ski on Mt. Shasta, and skis are made of aluminum. Therefore, the tested aluminum probably came from the skis! Nothing to worry about after all.

Of course, this was all made-up nonsense. People do ski on Mt. Shasta, but it is a big mountain, and there has never been any skiing in the area where the samples were taken. Even if there had been, that would not explain the high levels of barium and strontium. These metals are not used in the construction of skis. Our debunker never bothered to check on any of that. He was merely looking for some plausible explanation in order to plant doubts into the minds of casual readers. If people are confused by seemingly plausible explanations that even remotely could explain away the high levels of aluminum, barium, and strontium in snow and rain water, they will back away from coming to a conclusion and align themselves with the prevailing view.

DUST-BOWL THEORY
Another debunker contacted me a few days ago and claimed that a plausible explanation for the chemicals in snow on Mt. Shasta is that the samples were taken in a year with early snow melt which, according to him, means there was a lot of bare earth exposed at the time, and the wind must have blown dust from the earth onto the snow. Furthermore, he claims that the soil on Mt. Shasta contains the same metals as found in the samples; so, you see? Here is another perfectly plausible explanation. Once again, nothing to worry about.

We are planning to respond to this gentleman as soon as we can find the time to carefully examine his claims about the early snow melt, the amount of bare earth exposed, the composition of the surface soil, and especially the rainfall and moisture levels of the soil during this period. I expect to find that, even if there had been an early snow melt, the soil on Mt. Shasta would have been far too moist and covered with moss, ferns, or other ground cover to make the "dust-bowl" theory even remotely plausible. But that will take a little time to pull the facts together..

Meanwhile, we must not just play defensive and spend our lives answering the debunkers. We must take the initiative and obtain new data and information that will be impossible to dispute. The on-going collection of new snow and rain samples is part of that strategy. After we have literally hundreds of such chemical tests, I think our critics will run out of plausible-denial theories.

PLANE FINDER
One of the most promising technologies to generate hard evidence of chemtrails is the Internet tracking of planes in flight. There are several computer programs and devices that track commercial flights in real time and show, not only their location, but also their flight number, type of aircraft, origin, destination, speed, and altitude. The cost for this Ap on an iPhone is about $4, and on a computer, it is free. This is amazing technology, and the programs actually are fun to use. They work by receiving what is called ADS-B plane feeds, which are radio signals transmitted by commercial and private aircraft. Military aircraft and those on classified missions do not transmit this signal.

I'm sure you already see where this is going. It is theoretically possible to identify every commercial plane you see overhead either by pointing your iPhone camera at it or locating it on the screen of your computer. If the debunkers are correct, we will find that planes spewing a trail from horizon-to-horizon will all be identified as merely commercial craft and what we see are merely normal contrails after all. On the other hand, if we find that commercial craft do not leave streaks from horizon to horizon but the ones that do are missing from the system ... well, even the most die-hard skeptic would have to take a serious look at that.

To be sure, the debunkers will always be able to find some semi-plausible explanation for everything, even this. For example, not all parts of the world or even of the United States are serviced by this technology at the present time, although the most populated areas are. So the debunkers will likely claim that the coverage is not complete and, therefore, not reliable. Also, there is some question about whether all commercial planes are equipped with these transmitters or merely most of them, so the debunkers will claim that a plane that does not show up in the system is probably just one of those commercial planes without transmitters. One blogger who is not happy with the technology claims that his iPhone does not work if the plane is closer than 50 miles, supposedly because of some interference by Homeland Security to protect planes from terrorists. (I do not have an iPhone so I cannot verify his claim, but I had no trouble tracking aircraft directly overhead when using the full computer version of Plane Tracker.) In any event, debunkers will claim that the system is filled with quirks and errors and is not reliable. You get the picture.

In spite of the debunkers, there is an opportunity here to collect data that will be very compelling, even if there are areas not serviced by the technology and even if a small percentage of commercial planes are, in fact, without transmitters. If we can demonstrate that most flights with long trails are missing from the system, I think we will have put the final nail into the coffin of chemtrail denial.

TWO-EDGED SWORD
This project is a two-edged sword. What if we find that all those trails really are coming from the same scheduled planes that carry passengers? That would mean we have been on the wrong track, and we would have to re-examine our evidence and re-consider our position. There are some who are convinced that spraying is done by planes performing routine commercial services, but I have not considered that to be likely in view of the huge amount of chemicals needed for such missions and the difficulty in concealing the mixing of chemicals with jet fuel, to say nothing of the effect it would have on fuel performance and damage to the engines. Furthermore, Planes that fly in the crazy patterns we have seen would hardly go unnoticed and unreported by passengers. In any event, the results of a field test such as I am proposing will clear up many of these questions.

Here is what I am asking you to do. If this project interests you, please go on the Internet and become familiar with a program called Plane Finder: http://planefinder.net/. Play with it a while to see how you can track aircraft anywhere in the world, provided there are receiving stations in that area. When you see on your screen that a plane is moving over your location, you should be able to go outdoors and watch it in the sky. Every time you see a plane, get its identity from Plane Finder and note if it has very long trails (lingering over more than half the sky and feathering out into a lingering milky haze), short trails (moving along with the aircraft and dissipating as they go), or no trails (usually low altitude flights). Record all the data about the flight including the time.

For those with iPhones or other smart phones that can handle the Plane Finder Ap, purchase it and install it. Then, every time you see a plane, aim the camera lens of the phone at the plane and record its identification, including the time.

That's it. If 50 or 100 people will do this, and if they are able to collect data on flights over a one-month period, we will have a data base of immense value. When complete, please prepare a summary, including the locations where observations were made and a brief summary of your experience, and send it to me at gedward.griffin@verizon.net.

Are we going to have fun or what?

Ed Griffin

[Calz]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5--Iq4FPyGU

[Cidersomerset]

Hi All ....... One thing I should have said in my ealier posts is that during the last three to four years of deliberately looking up in the sky , I have seen thousands of contrails & chemtrails, ( no U F O 's unfortunately ) and they are as different from each as a cat from a dog imho.

One thing I can concur with Fred259 is I don't think they are from commercial planes , I have looked at them with binoculars several times when at home (not on my rounds I'd probably be arrested as a ' Peeping Tom') and from the ground they look like white tankers . Commerial jets fly over somerset even more often than I realised before getting hooked on planefinder.com and the integrel ship one is cool as well , I now know why the channel is the busiest waterway in the world ! and when the map is on world view the planes over North America and Europe look like a plague of Locust , I di -gress .

Anyway contrails are easy to tie up with the jets flying over on planefinder, when weather not totally overcast , they trail behind the plane for few a minutes max whatever the conditions ( here anyway ). Chemtrails as you know spray out in a long trail and gradually spreading out over several hours, untill left with a milky cloud covering the sky . Also the tanker/tankers for sometimes you can see three or four of them criss crossing the the sky , usually doing a chequer board grid, or giant X's ,

Like I said the other day if as many of us as possible keep checking, when practicle the planes on the planefinder A, whether they are contrailing and are on the screen thus normalcommercial airlines..... B, chemtrailing not on the screen thus either military or some covert operation.... Should be fun and something we can all do, and probably still have two different conclusions LOL.... I Know its not as easy as that, my computor is in my living room and I have to run out into the garden when a plane goes over ,See how it goes I'll keep looking up.

By the way lots of commercial flights have gone over Somerset today, not a chemtrail in sight which fits in with my theory that they are not coming from Airline jets, not here anyway . I'm not saying I know what they are spraying,thats left to the biologists/chemists. I just know they are. Hope this makes sence Cheers Steve the 'postie'

Nomadguy...... Just read your thread 'Spooky'

People can do that if they wish but it would be interresting to see what people here observe...

[Cidersomerset]

Hi All ........ A quick update , the day started windy and cloudy , normal cotton wool clouds blowing over , slightly dissapating in the wind but naturaly clear blue skys inbetween. Dozens of airliners flying over all day
all contrailing..................Just popped out in the garden beautifull late spring evening planes flying over at regular intervals all contrailing in the clear blue sky, there is one going over now as I type.
so far still fitting in with my theory , they use Tankers not holiday jets , early days yet Steve OUT ! Cheers.............

[Cidersomerset]

Right Tanker going over now from north to south first of day not on plane finder chemtrail clearly above my house, keep you posted steve......

[Cidersomerset]

Right here comes a second one same trajectory north south slightly more south west over the town looks like another tanker , must have been planes further over to the north west as sky milking up quite quickly now.

Trying to get hold of ECNEL 61 as he lives in Bridgwater as well , but not answering his phone. Going back in garden. Sorry I haven't got camera cheers Steve.

[Fred259]

[QUOTE=Cidersomerset;229113]Hi All ....... One thing I should have said in my ealier posts is that during the last three to four years of deliberately looking up in the sky , I have seen thousands of contrails & chemtrails, ( no U F O 's unfortunately ) and they are as different from each as a cat from a dog imho.

You’ve seen thousands of contrails. Because you have been reading disinformation on alternative news websites all of a sudden contrails have become chemtrails and the foolishness starts cider, it’s not your fault this is what we are trying to correct.

One thing I can concur with Fred259 is I don't think they are from commercial planes , I have looked at them with binoculars several times when at home (not on my rounds I'd probably be arrested as a ' Peeping Tom') and from the ground they look like white tankers.
After a cold frosty foggy night in Bridgewater when you go to your car in the morning it’s covered in ice, or cold soaked. The car is parked on the drive all night, and let’s say the temperature was -5C. But what about the aircraft? Its -60C at altitude and its doing 480 kts a mile every 13 seconds, do you really think its going to be sparkling in the sunshine. Therefore if the air is supersaturated we get a cold soaked car and aircraft. If its not we get a red car and an orange Easyjet aircraft.

Commerial jets fly over somerset even more often than I realised before getting hooked on planefinder.com
They do. You are right under the western airway, Exeter, Brecon, Wirral (Merseyside) Deans Cross (Cumbria) Glasgow.

Appreciate that not all traffic is on plane finder. Here is another.. http://www.flightradar24.com/

Anyway contrails are easy to tie up with the jets flying over on planefinder, when weather not totally overcast , they trail behind the plane for few a minutes max whatever the conditions ( here anyway ).

I agree because the atmosphere relative humidity at that altitude is less than 100%


Chemtrails as you know spray out in a long trail and gradually spreading out over several hours, untill left with a milky cloud covering the sky .

I agree because the atmosphere relative humidity at that altitude is 100% the air is supersaturated, it can no longer support moisture in a gaseous state, so clouds or contrails will form, and last all day spreading out as you correctly point out.

Also the tanker/tankers for sometimes you can see three or four of them criss crossing the the sky , usually doing a chequer board grid, or giant X's ,

Because the atmosphere has changed now for some reason you call them tankers?? Now three or four tankers according to your post are criss crossing the sky. Remember we said you were under a north south airways, what happens to all the Trans Atlantic aircraft from Paris and Rome, heading west? Is this the criss crossing you are referring to?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=US4mKjYeklM&feature=related

OMG Cidersomerset… tankers over Bridgewater!


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UhWy09zFC9E

Close up of tankers over Bridgewater….

0.09 + 0.36 +0.55, if you look carefully you will see all white cold soaked aircraft, just like your car in winter.



Like I said the other day if as many of us as possible keep checking, when practicle the planes on the planefinder A, whether they are contrailing and are on the screen thus normalcommercial airlines..... B, chemtrailing not on the screen thus either military or some covert operation....

Come on Cider Somerset, just because its not on Plane finder screen we jump to conclusions with the word “thus” and now its military covert operations, James Bond + blonde all Hollywood style.

Remember only about 40% of the traffic is on the planefinder screen, its for enthusiasts really its not exactly 100% reliable and robust is it.

By the way lots of commercial flights have gone over Somerset today, not a chemtrail in sight which fits in with my theory that they are not coming from Airline jets, not here anyway

What’s changed today then? Could it be I wonder if it’s because relative humidity is less than 100%?

What are you going to post tomorrow when every aircraft over Bridgewater is pulling a massive trail, that stays for hours and spreads out in the sky as you describe above.

Could it be I wonder its because relative humidity is 100%, and that the air is supersaturated?

I'm not saying I know what they are spraying,thats left to the biologists/chemists. I just know they are.

That’s a very valid point Cider, 7,000 aircraft per day enter British Airspace, 58,000 per day in the US, so with all this massive spraying going on continually around the clock, around the world, its surprising the biologists and chemists are taking so long finding out what it is they are spraying.

[Andrew]

So how do you explain when a chemtrailer is spraying then it just stops spraying for lets say 100 metres then starts spraying again? explain that.

[Cidersomerset]

Hi Right a third Tanker has just gone over same north to south ,within under an hour the Sky above my house has changed from bright sunny evening no clouds . To still no clouds just a white whispy milky 'Gloop' I have witnessed this happen at various

times of day/evening many times and so has Ecnal61 thats why I was trying to get hold of him while I'm writing this. My point is I know you don't know me from Adam , but the scenario I've just witnessed and shared with you, unless half of us on this site

are halucinating ) must be happening everywhere . There have also been several planes go over in this period that were on plane finder and there contrails were longer than usual probably because as Fred 259 says caused by the change of

temperature. That was fun all for now cheers steve.....

[Cidersomerset]

OK Fred......Only one ' e ' in Bridgwater by the way we are very proud of that down here..... You've spoilt it now only 40% of planes on planefinder I thought we were onto something LOL... Never mind part of me hopes you are right.

Still not convinced yet......No harm in us all observing the air traffic in our areas I'm outside everyday anyway cheers Steve.

[Fred259]

So how do you explain when a chemtrailer is spraying then it just stops spraying for lets say 100 metres then starts spraying again? explain that.

It’s caused by aircraft compressibility.

Essentially it occurs when the temperature, dew point are relative humidity are separated. In this scenario no clouds or contrails will form. However as you correctly say Andrew you get this stop start situation so what is causing this?

The aircraft generates a temperature ram rise due to compressibility. It’s the effect of heat friction on the airframe, and is proportional to speed.

Subsonic aircraft temperature increase is around 30C while on Concorde for example it was over 100C. Likewise for other supersonic aircraft. Thus the effect on this increase in temperature changes the atmosphere and causes mixing towards a saturated atmosphere. After the aircraft has passed it returns to normal.

Its best illustrated in this picture. High speed supersonic aircraft have punched through these clouds causing the stratiform cloud to dissipate due to heat rise. After the aircraft has passed through the clouds will return to stratiform again when the temp returns to as it was previously.



7775

Compressibility temp rise.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airspeed
http://www.grc.nasa.gov/WWW/K-12/airplane/airsim.html

[nearing]

Funny how these planes never made contrials that spread out from horizon to horizon into overcast skies when we were all children.

Shall we believe the atmospheric conditions were somehow different when we were kids? I think not. Also, I have seen them turn it and off in same flight too many times to buy the relative humidity theory.

I don't think so.

[Fred259]

[QUOTE=nearing;230133]Funny how these planes never made contrials that spread out from horizon to horizon into overcast skies when we were all children.

They did.

However air traffic has grown exponentially over the years. In addition engine size and power output has increased five fold. In the 1960s airlines operated with 20,000lb thrust engines, today its over 115,000 lbs of thrust. Bigger engines , more power, bigger contrails, and most importantly the disspipating period lasts longer which is why you make the statement about overcast skies.




7776

1960s 20,000lb thrust engine.

7778

Forty years later Rolls Royce launched the Trent 900 to power the Airbus A380 at 82,000lbs of thrust.


7779
The worlds most powerful operational engine tested at 128,000lbs of trust, but downrated to 115,000 lbs for operational use. General Electric GE90-115B


Shall we believe the atmospheric conditions were somehow different when we were kids? I think not. Also, I have seen them turn it and off in same flight too many times to buy the relative humidity theory.


No one is turning anything on or off; it’s ludicrous to suggest that. Jet trails will turn on or off to use your words depending on the state of the atmosphere. Its probable that large contrails will form while flying over a large hot city like Denver or Mexico City and then turn off as they progress over farmland. Cities generate massive heat, which rises into the atmosphere changing the adiabatic lapse rate. The problem is you witness this change as you report and think the pilot is sitting with his feet up on the panel switching chemtrail on,….. aaaahhh spray the bastards, and then switching it off later. This is precisely what they want you to think. They want you to look dumb, and that’s what makes me angry. Who are these criminals?


Contrails from just the same way clouds form. Forget contrails, just think of clouds. This video explains how clouds are formed.

The key bit.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8BYWsmp9OY8&feature=player_embedded

0.34 “Moisture will condense when air is cooled to the dew point” So she is saying the moisture will condense out and form a cloud. It’s a very good 90 second video.

Jet engine combustion is essentially water,( the same as clouds) cooled to the dew point (the same as clouds) and turning to contrails. Because of the outside air temp is so cold the contrails sublimate to ice crystals almost instantly.

[nearing]

Right.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N661mbZ5XrY&feature=youtube_gdata_player

[Fred259]

Nearing, seriously I don’t know why you waste your time here. The video you posted up is just complete buffoonery. Im not interested in dealing with the 50% who want to clown around. I am interested in the 50% who are serious about this matter.

I seriously suggest you just get used to them for they are not going away any time soon. You can always send me a pm if you want….Can we just leave it at that.

[nearing]

If I had made my own video I would have posted it instead. Turn the sound off and just watch the plane. Clearly, this isn't about relative humidity.

And I AM as serious as death about this matter. What I have a problem with is those who try to poo-poo it and say that the Illuminazi's are NOT spraying anything which certainly ALLOWS them to continue. I'd rather have them stopped.

I guess we are even.

love.

[DoubleHelix]

Freddy, Freddy , Freddy.... You just gave me a bloody big laugh after I happened to stumble across your post over at nexus, I literally Laughed out loud.

http://nexus.2012info.ca/forum/showthread.php?3209-Killer-Chemtrails-all-over-the-world-The-shocking-Truth&p=22409&viewfull=1#post22409

You tell 'em man, these people need to know the truth about these chemtrails! How could anyone be so silly to fall for this propaganda. I have to say though my favourite part was this one "Again don’t worry, you are safe."

You can tuck me into bed any night of the week.

[Fred259]

[
QUOTE]
Freddy, Freddy , Freddy.... You just gave me a bloody big laugh after I happened to stumble across your post over at nexus, I literally Laughed out loud.

http://nexus.2012info.ca/forum/showthread.php?3209-Killer-Chemtrails-all-over-the-world-The-shocking-Truth&p=22409&viewfull=1#post22409
You tell 'em man, these people need to know the truth about these chemtrails! How could anyone be so silly to fall for this propaganda. I have to say though my favourite part was this one "Again don’t worry, you are safe."

You can tuck me into bed any night of the week.[/QUOTE]


The only person who has fallen for the propaganda is you.


PS…. I was posting with a women and trying to reassure her, on the other hand you who know zero about the matter attempt to scare her. It’s a disgrace,


Carry on laughing my friend.

[Benign]

Hello ,any info on the Point Mugu,Santa Monica(18.5.11) chem trail plane crash?

In Greece Dr. Katsaros president of the Greek Chemists Association has commented that the silvery lake around the craft not catching fire ,while the whole plane is in flames,is indicative that its cargo was indeed chemicals.

[nomadguy]

New findings -
http://loveforlife.com.au/content/07/06/27/chemtrails-two-emails-received-anonymously-airline-mechanic-and-airline-manager-bot (http://loveforlife.com.au/content/07/06/27/chemtrails-two-emails-received-anonymously-airline-mechanic-and-airline-manager-bot)

[Rocky_Shorz]

[
QUOTE]
Freddy, Freddy , Freddy.... You just gave me a bloody big laugh after I happened to stumble across your post over at nexus, I literally Laughed out loud.

http://nexus.2012info.ca/forum/showthread.php?3209-Killer-Chemtrails-all-over-the-world-The-shocking-Truth&p=22409&viewfull=1#post22409
You tell 'em man, these people need to know the truth about these chemtrails! How could anyone be so silly to fall for this propaganda. I have to say though my favourite part was this one "Again don’t worry, you are safe."

You can tuck me into bed any night of the week.


The only person who has fallen for the propaganda is you.


PS…. I was posting with a women and trying to reassure her, on the other hand you who know zero about the matter attempt to scare her. It’s a disgrace,


Carry on laughing my friend.

so I'm curious Fred, being from Britain I guess everything the US military does is an open book for you, and Private companies "not" running cloud seeding operations are monitored world wide by the Brits, am I correct? Just like the rockets that never were launched by Irvine...

[Rocky_Shorz]

New findings -
http://loveforlife.com.au/content/07/06/27/chemtrails-two-emails-received-anonymously-airline-mechanic-and-airline-manager-bot (http://loveforlife.com.au/content/07/06/27/chemtrails-two-emails-received-anonymously-airline-mechanic-and-airline-manager-bot)


The email from the anonymous mechanic rings true. Airline companies in America have been participating in something called Project Cloverleaf for a few years now. The earliest date anyone remembers being briefed on it is 1998. I was briefed on it in 1999. The few airline employees who were briefed on Project Cloverleaf were all made to undergo background checks, and before we were briefed on it we were made to sign non-disclosure agreements, which basically state that if we tell anyone what we know we could be imprisoned.

About twenty employees in our office were briefed along with my by two officials from some government agency. They didn't tell us which one.

They told us that the government was going to pay our airline, along with others, to release special chemicals from commercial aircraft.

When asked what the chemicals were and why we were going to spray them, they told us that information was given on a need-to-know basis and we weren't cleared for it. They then went on to state that the chemicals were harmless, but the program was of such importance that it needed to be done at all costs. When we asked them why didn't they just rig military aircraft to spray these chemicals, they stated that there weren't enough military aircraft available to release chemicals on such a large basis as needs to be done. That's why Project Cloverleaf was initiated, to allow commercial airlines to assist in releasing these chemicals into the atmosphere...

anyone ever heard of Project Cloverleaf?

[Fred259]

[
QUOTE]
Freddy, Freddy , Freddy.... You just gave me a bloody big laugh after I happened to stumble across your post over at nexus, I literally Laughed out loud.

http://nexus.2012info.ca/forum/showthread.php?3209-Killer-Chemtrails-all-over-the-world-The-shocking-Truth&p=22409&viewfull=1#post22409
You tell 'em man, these people need to know the truth about these chemtrails! How could anyone be so silly to fall for this propaganda. I have to say though my favourite part was this one "Again don’t worry, you are safe."

You can tuck me into bed any night of the week.


The only person who has fallen for the propaganda is you.


PS…. I was posting with a women and trying to reassure her, on the other hand you who know zero about the matter attempt to scare her. It’s a disgrace,


Carry on laughing my friend.

so I'm curious Fred, being from Britain I guess everything the US military does is an open book for you, and Private companies "not" running cloud seeding operations are monitored world wide by the Brits, am I correct? Just like the rockets that never were launched by Irvine...

Rocky, I don’t see your point.

The thread is about contrails that the alternative media have been duped into thinking are Chemtrails.

It would seem that many think they are being sprayed from the skies. Nothing could be further from the truth.

The US military are not spraying chemicals from aircraft. They may be using chaff and all manner or products in trials and on exercise, but they are not spraying chemicals at high altitude.

Cloud seeding has been going on for over fifty years and will continue. This activity takes place much lower down around 8-12,000 feet.

Contrails are formed exactly the same way that clouds are formed. Just because these days the contrails are much larger doesn’t suddenly make them chemtrails, or rather it would seem it does, but only in the alternative community who have been fooled.

[Fred259]

New findings -
http://loveforlife.com.au/content/07/06/27/chemtrails-two-emails-received-anonymously-airline-mechanic-and-airline-manager-bot (http://loveforlife.com.au/content/07/06/27/chemtrails-two-emails-received-anonymously-airline-mechanic-and-airline-manager-bot)


The email from the anonymous mechanic rings true. Airline companies in America have been participating in something called Project Cloverleaf for a few years now. The earliest date anyone remembers being briefed on it is 1998. I was briefed on it in 1999. The few airline employees who were briefed on Project Cloverleaf were all made to undergo background checks, and before we were briefed on it we were made to sign non-disclosure agreements, which basically state that if we tell anyone what we know we could be imprisoned.

About twenty employees in our office were briefed along with my by two officials from some government agency. They didn't tell us which one.

They told us that the government was going to pay our airline, along with others, to release special chemicals from commercial aircraft.

When asked what the chemicals were and why we were going to spray them, they told us that information was given on a need-to-know basis and we weren't cleared for it. They then went on to state that the chemicals were harmless, but the program was of such importance that it needed to be done at all costs. When we asked them why didn't they just rig military aircraft to spray these chemicals, they stated that there weren't enough military aircraft available to release chemicals on such a large basis as needs to be done. That's why Project Cloverleaf was initiated, to allow commercial airlines to assist in releasing these chemicals into the atmosphere...

anyone ever heard of Project Cloverleaf?

Yes it’s been pushed around by Cliff Carnicom, a disinformation agent.

It’s so amateurish, these letters and statements, anyone who has any involvement in engineering or the aviation business can see through it all this nonsense.

The aviation industry is so highly regulated controlled and administered that it’s impossible to start these secret covert operations that Carnicom wants you to believe.

Mechanic’s don’t sneak up and fill tanks of chemicals or whatever they want you to believe. Duplicate inspection exists throughout the industry, thus everything requires two signatures, plus foreman managers along with a whole host of people……its doing my head in this, I sit and read these posts from members who have been completely fooled and they believe it all, then again 95% of members thought Charles was a great guy and even now some members still thing he is an honorable man. I tell you in Glasgow he would be taken out for a damm good belting, the chancer he was….. an honorable man according to a few Avalonians…..

[Rocky_Shorz]

well don't be so harsh on Avalon's members, everyone is here for excitement and truths and more followed him for the mystery of what was coming than anything else...

I'm wondering if he was surprised everyone agreed to the attack on Avalon, to him this was all an experiment.

Inelia could never be hurt by just words, she has strength few understand, and he might have been poking the hornets nest for a reaction.

Wanting to see her direct it at him, in an attempt, to heal...


Instead he had three communities step back together and rise up in anger in a way he never expected, or maybe he did... ;)


so honorable is quite a stretch for everyone at this point, but, did he have one more message for all of us on his way out the door?


Forget me... I am nothing but a teacher... ;)