Censorship here?

[Chicodoodoo]

Avalon, we have a problem.

Essentially, it is this: Who watches the watchers?

Currently, there is no system in place to moderate the moderators (I am including Bill Ryan in this moderator group). The moderators have absolute power over the voices of Avalon members, and as we all know, absolute power corrupts absolutely. We are seeing signs of this corruption beginning to grow. I myself have been silenced unjustifiably, and others have been silenced as well. Any one of you could easily be next.

Avalon has already fragmented, more than once, as a result of this problem, and this division is on-going. It will continue until the problem is properly addressed. That is the purpose of this post.

It is frequently argued that this is Bill’s “house”, so he can run it as he pleases. I would like to put that argument to bed permanently. Avalon is not a “house”; it is a community. It is a community made up of thousands of individual members, many of whom donate time, energy, and money to make this enterprise possible. Bill is indeed the founder of this community and was instrumental in bringing it into the world. He is also a very respected member of the community, but he does not “own” it any more than he owns any one of us. The community grows, it evolves, and it develops its own identity and autonomy. It is this last step, developing its own autonomy, that is being prevented. This can and should be remedied if Avalon is to reach its amazing potential.

A system of checks and balances is called for here, one that is circular as opposed to hierarchical. In other words, if moderators are tasked with controlling the community, the community must also be tasked with controlling the moderators.

I am proposing a kind of feedback loop where the community has some power to regulate the moderators. I am requesting ideas and discussion for what this system would look like and how it would work. I am also requesting the support of Bill and the moderators, who should place the best interests of the Avalon community ahead of their own private interests.

We have the opportunity to do something very special here. I recommend we don’t waste it.

[Lord Sidious]

How do you propose to do that chiconugget?
Control the admin/mod team I mean.

[Gaia]

I'd think there is some way to have a forum where people can discuss topics with less censorship and have it be a good place to talk and get support. I do think sometimes those things can be diametrically opposed. Even if it's somewhat messy and misunderstandings take place. That's what compassion and forgiveness are for ... Allowing mistakes and accepting apologies.

[Hughe]

Deleted thread section
The name of moderators who ban or lock thread will have to be on record so that any members will see.

If it ever occurs, that will be fantastic.

[bearcow]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wRpAANsoG8I

PARANOIA MAY DESTROY YA?

who polices the police, and all the other arguments put forward about creating checks and balances within the forum's operating structure will only create bureaucracy.

trust will develop on the forum only if people police themselves, only then we can actually do something constructive here.

[greybeard]

Post 16 on the link is your answer and it is valid
If you dont like it here there are other places to go
We have been here many times before its a waste of time in my opinion.
Im not saying the sentiment invalid, the situation will not change.
Regarding deleted potions and threads that were halted -- to the best of my knowledge the mod who made the decision always said why
and named themselves.
Being a mod is not easy.

http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?19964-Ashayana-Dean-How-is-she-able-to-go-public-with-her-information

[Teakai]

I agree, Chicodoodoo - I feel that is about the one failing of Avalon. I haven't any solutions as to what we can do about it,though
:(

[ThePythonicCow]

Post 16 on the link is your answer and it is valid
Greybeard - are you referring to this post (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?19964-Ashayana-Dean-How-is-she-able-to-go-public-with-her-information&p=215538&viewfull=1#post215538)?

[greybeard]

Post 16 on the link is your answer and it is valid
Greybeard - are you referring to this post (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?19964-Ashayana-Dean-How-is-she-able-to-go-public-with-her-information&p=215538&viewfull=1#post215538)?

Yes thanks Paul
Bill is clear and fair --- my bit is not really relevant but I am not computer literate enough to do a link properly.
Chris

[ThePythonicCow]

Thanks, Greybeard. I prefer the link because the Post # changes after I delete any earlier post in the same thread (insert evil laugh here ;).) The link always continues to point to the same post.

[Gaia]

Being a mod is not easy.

An admin is not only in charge of what is said above, but also of taking care of the website in its entirety, which includes technical problems and glitches, and editing the website.

For all moderatos these qualifications must be respected:

You must fully respect Bill Ryan. This is his site, and you have the privilege of moderating it.

You must respect and honour, and make others honour, the rules.

You must be fair when you moderate. Do not be too harsh, or too passive. Forgive a lot of minor offenses, but never forget them.

Be objective when you moderate. Do not defend anybody because they're your friend. Do so only because you see it as being rational, fair and right. Do not let an offense from somebody slip because you're they're friend. Whoever does not respect the rules must be notified of that.

Do not abuse your privileges. Yes, you do have more rights than a member, but that doesn't mean you can be an a** about it.

Gaia

[HORIZONS]

I agree, Chicodoodoo - I feel that is about the one failing of Avalon. I haven't any solutions as to what we can do about it,though
:(

No offense, but it is simple really... We could always choose to deal with it! I've been here since AV1 and see no point in getting caught up in all the hoopla - it is what it is - so I deal with it! ...... "Freedom, it may not be what you want it to be, but it will be what it is - and that is free." We are free to choose, so choose wisely!

[Chicodoodoo]

Post 16 on the link is your answer and it is valid
If you dont like it here there are other places to go
http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?19964-Ashayana-Dean-How-is-she-able-to-go-public-with-her-information

I readily recognize that argument, since it has been used ad nauseum in my own country throughout a good portion of my life. It is the "Love it or leave it" argument. By the time that argument becomes the popular meme, an astute observer can predict the decline that is surely already in progress. The United States is a joke of a country today. Do we want to see Avalon follow suit?


We have been here many times before its a waste of time in my opinion.

Really? Then things are perhaps worse than I thought. I understand that this is not the first iteration of the Avalon forum. Could you summarize some of the prior history of this problem for the newer members?

[qbeac]

great thread and great idea, Chicodoodoo, I totally agree with you, and specially with these paragraphs:


.... A system of checks and balances is called for here, one that is circular as opposed to hierarchical. In other words, if moderators are tasked with controlling the community, the community must also be tasked with controlling the moderators.

I am proposing a kind of feedback loop where the community has some power to regulate the moderators. I am requesting ideas and discussion for what this system would look like and how it would work. I am also requesting the support of Bill and the moderators, who should place the best interests of the Avalon community ahead of their own private interests.

We have the opportunity to do something very special here. I recommend we don’t waste it.

Besides the “checks and balances”, which is a MUST HAVE, I would suggest two more things:

1) To improve the forum’s software system. That’s a task for computer programmers. Many things could be improved about this current version of the Vbulletin system.

For instance, sometimes I want to thank somebody but not because I agree with what that person said, but because other reasons, such as that I appreciate that he/she said it because it was brave, or honest, etc. Well, more buttons could be added besides just the “thank you” button.

Another example: If a moderator makes a decision (Ex: banning someone), let’s the rest of us vote (with a special button to do so) to say if we agree or disagree with it.

2) Let’s form a MERITOCRACY, as Benjamin Fulford has mentioned so many times in his weekly updates as being a good system to rule the world, as opposed to the current ones of dictatorships and the like.

MERITOCRACY
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meritocracy



Meritocracy, in the first, most administrative sense, is a system of government or other administration (such as business administration) wherein appointments are made and responsibilities assigned to individuals based upon their "merits", namely intelligence, credentials, and education,[1] determined through evaluations or examinations. (...)

In government applications, individuals appointed to a meritocracy are judged based upon certain merits which could range from intelligence to morality to general aptitude to specific knowledge.

Supporters of meritocracies do not necessarily agree on the nature of "merit", however they tend to agree that "merit" itself should be a primary consideration during evaluation.

¿Who would vote in a MERITOCRACY?

Each one of us, the whole community: that’s “checks and balances”.

[Siberia9]

Oh boy, here we go again, and Im new LOL. I am currious about what set Chicodoodoo off? He said that he was censored can he tell us what drew the mods attention, without getting slapped again that is.

[Carmody]

Avalon, we have a problem.

Essentially, it is this: Who watches the watchers?

Currently, there is no system in place to moderate the moderators (I am including Bill Ryan in this moderator group). The moderators have absolute power over the voices of Avalon members, and as we all know, absolute power corrupts absolutely. We are seeing signs of this corruption beginning to grow. I myself have been silenced unjustifiably, and others have been silenced as well. Any one of you could easily be next.

Avalon has already fragmented, more than once, as a result of this problem, and this division is on-going. It will continue until the problem is properly addressed. That is the purpose of this post.

It is frequently argued that this is Bill’s “house”, so he can run it as he pleases. I would like to put that argument to bed permanently. Avalon is not a “house”; it is a community. It is a community made up of thousands of individual members, many of whom donate time, energy, and money to make this enterprise possible. Bill is indeed the founder of this community and was instrumental in bringing it into the world. He is also a very respected member of the community, but he does not “own” it any more than he owns any one of us. The community grows, it evolves, and it develops its own identity and autonomy. It is this last step, developing its own autonomy, that is being prevented. This can and should be remedied if Avalon is to reach its amazing potential.

A system of checks and balances is called for here, one that is circular as opposed to hierarchical. In other words, if moderators are tasked with controlling the community, the community must also be tasked with controlling the moderators.

I am proposing a kind of feedback loop where the community has some power to regulate the moderators. I am requesting ideas and discussion for what this system would look like and how it would work. I am also requesting the support of Bill and the moderators, who should place the best interests of the Avalon community ahead of their own private interests.

We have the opportunity to do something very special here. I recommend we don’t waste it.

I recommend that you go start a forum that talks about that.

Provide a link that goes there ....for those who want to go there.

In the meantime I've got some people to communicate with.

And in the act of doing that, I'm going to try very hard to not impress upon them... any ideas I may have about how the world and life should go....into their psyche ---as some sort of demand.

[Chicodoodoo]

I agree, Chicodoodoo - I feel that is about the one failing of Avalon. I haven't any solutions as to what we can do about it,though
:(

No offense, but it is simple really... We could always choose to deal with it! I've been here since AV1 and see no point in getting caught up in all the hoopla - it is what it is - so I deal with it

That is putting your private interest ahead of the best interests of Avalon members. It may be the best solution for you in the face of what appears to be a problem beyond your control, but it is not the best solution for all concerned.

[ThePythonicCow]

The United States is a joke of a country today. Do we want to see Avalon follow suit?
There is a fundamental difference between a nation and a web forum.

You normally only get to be live in one nation at a time, and there are only a couple hundred of them to choose from. Moving ones family, residence, and livelihood from one nation to another is a major undertaking. Actions taken and limitations imposed by a national government impact all those in nation, short of someone emigrating to another nation. Thus it is important that the policies of national governments tolerate a very wide range of individual choices.

Web forums are a dime a dozen. There are tens or hundreds of thousands of them. Most everyone reading this has or currently does participate in more than one. It is is entirely fitting and proper for various web forums to take on special preferences, in order to serve particular purposes and a select group of individuals.

I object strongly if my national government prohibits a certain food or nutrition. I don't mind at all if my local grocery store decides not to stock that same food or nutrition. The local store can stock whatever its management and ownership decide to stock. If they don't stock what I want to purchase, I go elsewhere, or do without.

That you (Chicodoodoo) would overlook this major and obvious difference between nations and web forums (and that you would title this thread "Censorship") suggests to me that you are more interested in complaining than in understanding.

[truthseekerdan]

I have this written in 'my journal' -- thought I will share it here:

Our expanding awareness is showing us that we are beginning to transcend fear, uncertainty, doubt and mental waste. It also allows us to become more open, allowing us to see the best in other people rather than just trying to manipulate or control other people. When we let go of control, only the truth remains.

The battle between good and evil is no longer polarizing our mind into false judgments as phantasms of deception and control are beginning to vanish from the forefront of our thoughts. Human beings can be irrational, unaware and lacking in sufficient understanding to control their own being. It is only when a person stops thinking as a physical being, that they begin to understand the answers to their fundamental problems are found in their metaphysical being.

Hope it helps.

Namaste ~ Dan

[Gaia]

A system of checks and balances is called for here, one that is circular as opposed to hierarchical.

By what criteria is one to isolate the unities with which one is dealing ?

[ThePythonicCow]

Oh boy, here we go again, and Im new LOL. I am currious about what set Chicodoodoo off? He said that he was censored can he tell us what drew the mods attention, without getting slapped again that is.
Welcome!

Chicodoodoo just came back from a weeks "vacation". His Project Avalon posting privileges were removed for a week. If you click on the number of Posts he has made (see green circled number in image below) you can view his recent posts. Look for about the next to the last post, before his week of vacation, to see where I edited out a paragraph, stating (in summary) why I did so, and who I was.

http://thepythoniccow.us/chicodoodoo_posts.jpeg

[Chicodoodoo]

Oh boy, here we go again, and Im new LOL. I am currious about what set Chicodoodoo off? He said that he was censored can he tell us what drew the mods attention, without getting slapped again that is.

The mods are indeed watching me closely, so any word I post might trigger a reaction from them. That really is too bad, because it illustrates the potential severity of the censorship problem here. But I'm guessing it won't hurt to post a link to the spot where I was censored on Avalon, since it is a matter of public record (to some extent).

http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?19645-Another-member-gone.&p=212929#post212929

[HORIZONS]

I agree, Chicodoodoo - I feel that is about the one failing of Avalon. I haven't any solutions as to what we can do about it,though
:(

No offense, but it is simple really... We could always choose to deal with it! I've been here since AV1 and see no point in getting caught up in all the hoopla - it is what it is - so I deal with it

That is putting your private interest ahead of the best interests of Avalon members.

Which is exactly what you are doing - remember YOU agreed to the terms of use -- Deal with it, or start forum where "the best solution for all concerned" is the motto.

[andywight]

124 members logged in, 22 members logged into this thread, One admin and one Mod logged in, both logged onto this thread!

"Wanted" dead or alive Chicodoodoo aka Chico.

[Gaia]

The mods are indeed watching me closely, so any word I post might trigger a reaction from them. That really is too bad, because it illustrates the potential severity of the censorship problem here.

The core of the problem is simple. If there has been no censoring here though sometimes I wish there was...But of course it's worth remembering that there has been no such pressure lately !;)

[truthseekerdan]

We have the opportunity to do something very special here. I recommend we don’t waste it.

Then lets all do this for a change!


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QMBZDwf9dok
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QMBZDwf9dok

[Seikou-Kishi]

Heh... "be moderate when you moderate"...

Sorry, that is all.

[Chicodoodoo]

The United States is a joke of a country today. Do we want to see Avalon follow suit?
There is a fundamental difference between a nation and a web forum.

I believe you've missed the point, Paul. The point is not to compare countries with forums. The point is to look at the basis of the "Love it or leave it" argument. It is fundamentally a form of censorship. It is essentially saying, "You either agree with us, or we don't want to hear you."


That you (Chicodoodoo) would overlook this major and obvious difference between nations and web forums (and that you would title this thread "Censorship") suggests to me that you are more interested in complaining than in understanding.

Perhaps you are misjudging me again, much as you did in the "Another member gone" thread when you suspended me for "impugning the motives of fellow members". By suggesting that I am more interested in complaining than in understanding, you are impugning the motives of a fellow member, namely me. A one-week vacation might do you some good. ;)

My motives, just for the record, are to make Avalon a more welcoming place for open discussion. That is why this thread is entitled "Censorship here?"

[Dennis Leahy]

When I was a child, there was a story that was told, and I'm not sure how popular it was in other countries, so I'll supply a Wikipedia link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henny_Penny

Chicken Little (sometime referred to as "Henny Penny", in some versions), was walking along one day, and an acorn fell on her head. She had no idea that she had just encountered an acorn, all she knew is that something hit her on top of the head, and when she looked up, all she saw was the sky. Quickly, she formed a conclusion about what must have happened. She shrieked, "The sky is falling! The sky is falling!" and ran to tell the king.

On the way to the king, she ran into one of her friends, Foxy Loxy. Chicken Little brethlessly shrieked to Foxy Loxy, "The sky is falling! The sky is falling! I'm going to tell the king!"

Foxy Loxy quickly formed a conclusion that Chicken Little must be correct, and said, "I will go with you, to warn the king!" And off they went, the two of them, toward the castle.

On the way to the castle, they run into another friend, Goosey Loosey. Both Chicken Little and Foxy Loxy breathlessly shrieked to Goosey Loosey, "The sky is falling! The sky is falling! We're going to tell the king!"

Goosey Loosey quickly formed a conclusion that Chicken Little and Foxy Loxy must be correct, and said, "I will go with you, to warn the king!" And off they went, the three of them, toward the castle.

(the story goes on and on, and we meet a few more of Chicken Little's friends along the way. Invariably, they come to the conclusion that yes indeed, the sky must be falling, because, well, their friend said so. With each new member in the "sky is falling mob", the combined voice becomes stronger and stronger, more and more convincing to those who do not take the time to use their own discernment.

Chicodoodoo, you can shriek "The Censorship Is Here! The Censorship Is Here!" as many times as you want, and it still won't be true. You can find a dozen more people to join in the chorus, "The Censorship Is Here! The Censorship Is Here!", and it still won't be true.

Avalon is a moderated forum. You knew that the day you joined. The concept of a moderated forum is to moderate the expletives, the flame wars, the ad hominem attacks, the trolling, the thread hijackers too lacking in focus or with a purposeful agenda to destroy a thread, the mean-spirited voices that seem to get excited pleasure from creating a big stir. Moderation is not censorship, again, regardless how many times or how many ways you state it.

You expressed before that you wanted a forum with no moderation (I know, you probably said "censorship", but it certainly does appear that you meant "moderation.") I encouraged you to start the new forum, and pointed you to technical help to do it. You started a forum. I didn't join, because I don't want to be in an unmoderated forum. Life's too short to wade through the crap that some people can spew. It is exactly why I don't bother reading the posts on YouTube.

I like that Avalon is moderated. I liked it before I joined (it made the quality of reading MUCH higher), I liked it when I joined and there was a moderation team I was not on. As this is a temporary job for any person who volunteers here, I will enjoy the fact that Avalon is moderated after I am no longer a moderator here.

Bill sets the ambiance, the tone of Project Avalon, and he asks his moderators to help do that. We do that, to the best of our ability. I am not the only one that likes it here - there are many more people posting now. Many members have contacted me personally, and/or other mods, and/or sent kudos to the mods/admins for the job of moderation here. It feels more comfortable for more people, and some of the gentler voices, some of the coolest people that preferred not to post before are sharing here now.

A few people are gone. They don't like it here anymore. They liked it better when it was more of a boxing match, and there were fewer voices, more dominant personalities. That's OK. I sincerely hope they are happier wherever they go, and sure hope that the move was positive enough for them that they can stop focusing on "censorship" and get back to the serious business of opposing the Global Rulers' agenda.

You know, there is a lot going on in the world right now, and 99.99999% of it is more important than arguing about the moderation on Avalon. I sure hope you'll focus your attention on some of the problems in the world or insights into some of the wonderful things your compatriots are doing, maybe some ideas for solutions or support some good ideas, maybe participate in discussions others have started...

The whole "The Censorship Is Here! The Censorship Is Here!" thing is a downward spiral. You're a bright guy, and I hope you'll abandon that spiral track, and I'll get the benefit of finding out what else you've been thinking about.

Dennis

[greybeard]

The definition of madness is Doing the same thing and expecting different results.

If we are going to be the change we want to see we must change.
Live and let live is good
Be kind to all life including your own no matter what.
and finally


God grant me the serenity to accept the things I can not change
Courage to change the things I can
Wisdom to know he difference

[dejavu]

Okay with no affinity to any particular person being it Bill or Mod, but appreciating the work and difficult position of Bill and the Mods, being as politically free as possible and being happy to follow and keep in line with guidance agreed in joining (okay think I've covered all potential hotspots) wouldn't it be wonderful to have a forward thinking circular system that took all the responsibility from the poor Mods and shared it as equally as possible among all members? How about Mods make the initial decision and final decision shared among final members group of say 20 people that rotate every month............with a majority of ?? to carry forward and a minorty of ?? details to be refined of course (still covering hotspots and reaching a higher community participation and responsibility).................just a thought

[Seikou-Kishi]

The United States is a joke of a country today. Do we want to see Avalon follow suit?
There is a fundamental difference between a nation and a web forum.

I believe you've missed the point, Paul. The point is not to compare countries with forums. The point is to look at the basis of the "Love it or leave it" argument. It is fundamentally a form of censorship. It is essentially saying, "You either agree with us, or we don't want to hear you."

I can't help but agree with Chicodoodoo here; the logic of his reduction is unpalatable but, I think, undeniable.

We should be careful in exercising authority believing that authority is self-justifying. The authority exercised in this forum has to be oriented such that it furthers the development of this forum. As things presently stand, Chicodoodoo has been thanked in over 85% of his posts, with thanked posts receiving on average thanks from five different people. Simple sensibility would behoove any moderator, in exercising their unenviable duty and function, to consider most carefully the utility of moderating a member held in such esteem by the Avalon community.



To the Moderators: it seems to me that this will not be over until it has been established conclusively by the community whether censorship occurred or did not occur. Being told by the moderators that censorship did not occur will always be insufficient to some. Since moderators can see what has been removed from general sight, let them contact those allegedly impugned in the removed posts seeking their permission to republicise them, asking in a poll whether, the hidden material being newly available, Avalon believes the removal of the posts/parts constituted fair and acceptable exercise of the moderator's capabilities. If it is established that the removal was fair, those who say that there is censorship will be forced to accept public opinion, and if it is established that the removal was not fair, we can all accept the community's verdict and work out how to move forward together and what changes, if any, need to be made and how they might be done.

[Aurelius]

food for thought ..

we crack this nut we also provide a solution/model for the world (politcians/corporations etc.).

could the answer not be as simple as transparency?

what ever mods do/say/ban is out in the open. No PMs / behind closed doors with these types of issues. It's all out in the open (perhaps a mod thread visible to the everyone).

..... it's an idea, maybe a step in the right direction, but may need a little tweaking. 4D has its limitations and we need to accept this.

[Noble Hops]

wouldn't it be wonderful to have a forward thinking circular system that took all the responsibility from the poor Mods and shared it as equally as possible among all members?

No. Bolshevism stinks, and this thread is crawling with it.

[dan i el]

The concept of a moderated forum is to moderate the expletives, the flame wars, the ad hominem attacks, the trolling, the thread hijackers too lacking in focus or with a purposeful agenda to destroy a thread, the mean-spirited voices that seem to get excited pleasure from creating a big stir.

<snip>

Life's too short to wade through the crap that some people can spew.



This statement would appear to be wholly counter-intuitive to accepting the role of being a moderator; that is exactly what they are tasked to do, traditionally..

[HORIZONS]

The United States is a joke of a country today. Do we want to see Avalon follow suit?
There is a fundamental difference between a nation and a web forum.

I believe you've missed the point, Paul. The point is not to compare countries with forums. The point is to look at the basis of the "Love it or leave it" argument. It is fundamentally a form of censorship. It is essentially saying, "You either agree with us, or we don't want to hear you."

I can't help but agree with Chicodoodoo here; the logic of his reduction is unpalatable but, I think, undeniable.

We should be careful in exercising authority believing that authority is self-justifying. The authority exercised in this forum has to be oriented such that it furthers the development of this forum. As things presently stand, Chicodoodoo has been thanked in over 85% of his posts, with thanked posts receiving on average thanks from five different people. Simple sensibility would behoove any moderator, in exercising their unenviable duty and function, to consider most carefully the utility of moderating a member held in such esteem by the Avalon community.


Chicken Little was held in high esteem by many as well.

[Darla Ken Pearce]

Chicodoodoo, sweetie,

The title of this thread ~ Censorship Here? Is provocative. All of us are aware of the heated battles that have raged on Avalon. The personal attacks, the friendships who moved on suddenly. The hurtful things said to someone on the forums that was cruel and uncalled for.

Further, when you say that this community doesn't belong to Bill or the Moderators, this purposely incites them and they are the ones who spend incredible amounts of personal time here fixing things; modifying temper tantrums; outbursts; people under duress who need technical assistance, and you're not making their job any easier.

You've slapped them with your glove and even I winced at the blow and I am so laid back the house could burn down and I'd hardly notice, I'd just leave quietly with my kittens and laptop.

I know you didn't mean it, you are upset over a decision they made. You have a love for provocative threads, sometimes that is okay but it's not necessary. We need to monitor ourselves and keep our own issues in check, at least as much as possible. Saying things you know can be so easily taken the wrong way and harm someone's sensitive feelings is just not nice.

By way of explaining, let me say this again: As the solar winds keep blowing in they are bringing Adamantine Particles. These can be of great benefit to our health and wellbeing or not. I've noticed that every emotion we've ever felt in this life and many others is coming up to the surface to be deal with ~ this is when we are forced to resolve in one way or another all negatives, old hurts, feelings of being inadequate, unprocessed anger, old dusty issues we've long forgotten go away, so they will trouble us no more. When we don't, it can very well kill us. These feelings are all amplified now and it's pretty agonizing.

This is where your anger over perceived censorship issues is coming from not Avalon!

We are being asked to sort and get rid of all that is no long needed including how we've been censored, stifled, held back, abused and so forth. All which is true, of course, but doesn't happen to apply to Avalon. It's old stuff that is going to cause bile to rise but not where it belongs. For you to get rid of but please not on public forums. You have already manged to get others to start talking about leaving and bringing up old worthless threads of discontent. The tone you are setting is not positive for anyone. No one has a gun to anyone's head.

We are all going through this sorting of wheat from chaff in different ways and it hurts and is not pretty. I had a bout myself while in Utah with old issues. It affects all of us. What you are forgetting is that all you have to do is be kind to others and not incite them. Do not insult their hard efforts on your behalf. You are beating the wrong horse, here and if you can realize it and get back into the real flow of things, all will be well.

Before posting, all of us need to ask if this will help anyone or not? Will it cause hurt feelings or not? Will it get others into a foul mood or cause negativity to run wild? We must ~ Do no harm!

It's kind of like saying the Earth doesn't own us. Bill doesn't own one of his own creations this Project and those who love him are not giving all their time for a worthy cause, as you have pointed out so well, and now it is suspect. Bill and his Nazi's have resurfaced from Inner Earth instead of the kinder Agarthans and all hell is upon us now and right here on this enlightening thread. If we had that attitude, Earth could well boot our persons off the planet in about two seconds flat. Is your merkaba finished?

Everyone ~ please be kind. We are all suffering the last birth pangs with Mother Earth. We all suffer when these changes radically affect our bodies, minds, spirits, and etheric arenas. Give us a few little nuggets like Lord Sid does, and even he has his bad days but we are a family and we journey together and are creating something so wonderful. Let's keep practicing until we get it right. Love all of you! xoxoxoxox

[greybeard]

I will say in defense--- not that it needs it-- The Avalon prior to the release of the Charles video was not a boxing arena-- it was very civilized and many interesting subjects debated.
I have nothing against Charles or the members who came after the release- many are my friends but around about that time there was a change in the energy of Avalon.
No doubt there will be records that show that the deleting of threads expelling members to the degree that it happen now just did not happen before 2011.
That is no reflection on the current mod team their job is difficult.
Something happened and I know not what.

im tired and not expressing well but I will also say that the Mayan Calander predicted changes in energy that would be unsettling-- so It may not be a personal thing but a global one.
Look at the news violent crime bizarre murders unusual weather, animals and fish dying.

I suggest just let go of all imagined or real grievances.
AA has the saying "Let go let God"
Good advice

Good night may God bless us all.
He is the ultimate authority for me.

Chris

[NancyV]

Oh boy, here we go again, and Im new LOL. I am currious about what set Chicodoodoo off? He said that he was censored can he tell us what drew the mods attention, without getting slapped again that is.

The mods are indeed watching me closely, so any word I post might trigger a reaction from them. That really is too bad, because it illustrates the potential severity of the censorship problem here. But I'm guessing it won't hurt to post a link to the spot where I was censored on Avalon, since it is a matter of public record (to some extent).
http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?19645-Another-member-gone.&p=212929#post212929
I can sure understand why the mods are watching you, Chico. You recently had a week's vacation because of your style of frequent complaining....and here you go again. I really have to wonder if you want to be banned because it's some kind of badge of honor over on the NEXUS forum and you want to be in the "I was banned from Avalon" group?

You started your own website and you can do anything you want there. Why do you have to make Avalon be what YOU want it to be? You're a member of NEXUS and I guess you're happy with the free-for-all bashing and vitriol over there (oops, I mean free speech).

I'm perfectly fine with the way Bill and the moderators operate this forum and I'm sorry that you aren't. By now anyone who reads your posts KNOWS you aren't happy with the way Bill runs Avalon and the way the moderators moderate. Okay, we get that... and we've gotten it over and over and over....ad nauseum.

You're an intelligent man, Chico, so I know you aren't doing this for no reason at all. After many weeks of complaining you know you aren't going to get Bill to change the website so you are continuing these tactics for another reason besides a hope for change. Perhaps deliberate provocation or do you just get a kick out of continual carping?

[Chicodoodoo]

Avalon is a moderated forum. You knew that the day you joined.

I agree the forum should be moderated. The question being asked here is what should be done when moderating crosses the line and becomes unwarranted censorship, or better yet, what can be done to prevent that from happening in the first place. That is why Avalon needs a system of "checks and balances".

Another example of subtle censorship (which you claim does not exist here) is the excuse given to members being banned for an action as innocent as thanking posts on another forum. They are informed that they obviously aren't happy at Avalon, and so for their own good, they are being pushed out the door. Really! I kid you not! How convenient to silence a voice you don't want heard by claiming they aren't happy.

Just so there's no confusion, I'm very happy! I'm happy I can post on Avalon! ;)

Aren't you?

[Fred259]

[QUOTE=Paul;218978][QUOTE]

[QUOTE]I believe you've missed the point, Paul. The point is not to compare countries with forums. The point is to look at the basis of the "Love it or leave it" argument. It is fundamentally a form of censorship. It is essentially saying, "You either agree with us, or we don't want to hear you."

Ha…Chico bang on...

I was censored today for no apparent reason. Restricted in the threads where I can post that is.

Paul obviously doesn’t like Scottish people so tough you get restricted. Oh sorry Greybeard its not Scottish people sorry it’s just me…

When I PM'd Paul asking why?

This was the response….

Yes, I am "deciding what members can post and where." That is one of the ways available to me to maintain the health of the forum, as understood by Bill and his team of admins and moderators, including myself.

Still waiting for a response. So Paul you and I join the forum a week apart, you have the option to dictate who post where, thus controlling the agenda of the forum. I don’t see any mention of this in the forum guidelines, so I assume it’s just made up as you go along. Like I say Scottish People today. It must have been folks from Colorado last week.

So its not really a forum…more a cosy boys club…well that’s what Bilderberg is isn’t it. Us and them.

I agree, I see Chico’s point…

Poor old Chico posts “ the mods are watching my every word”… What use is that….

[NancyV]

The concept of a moderated forum is to moderate the expletives, the flame wars, the ad hominem attacks, the trolling, the thread hijackers too lacking in focus or with a purposeful agenda to destroy a thread, the mean-spirited voices that seem to get excited pleasure from creating a big stir.

<snip>

Life's too short to wade through the crap that some people can spew.



This statement would appear to be wholly counter-intuitive to accepting the role of being a moderator; that is exactly what they are tasked to do, traditionally..
I'm pretty sure he means that people who spew excessive crap are usually asked to leave instead of the moderators having to continue dealing with the repercussions of that crap. After being a moderator online for 10 years I can say that a forum is much better off getting rid of the members who like being excessively vitriolic, provocative, argumentative and nasty. Of course that is just in my opinion, but it is also the opinion of the majority of members in most cases.

There are plenty of forums which allow ad hominem attacks and have little to no moderation. This forum is not one of those types of forums. If someone enjoys that style of interacting it's pretty easy to find those forums.

[Aurelius]

The issues Chicodoodoo refers to on Avalon are a microcosm of the worlds issues we often discuss here (politicians, corporations, agenda's etc.). It's far from perfect.

I agree "moderation" is key, that's what is preventing Avalon from becoming like ats, glp etc. but this doesn't mean we have the best solution in place. we need to keep challenging ourselves to improve and do things in better ways. ego is part of the problem. we collectively must pave the way for the new world.

moderation, in time to come, will probably remove / filter out important character types that are needed here (this is beyond the ones we would be happy to see walk out the door).


When I was a child, there was a story that was told, and I'm not sure how popular it was in other countries, so I'll supply a Wikipedia link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henny_Penny

Chicken Little (sometime referred to as "Henny Penny", in some versions), was walking along one day, and an acorn fell on her head. She had no idea that she had just encountered an acorn, all she knew is that
<snip>

Dennis

[qbeac]

If I have understood it correctly (please, correct me if I am wrong), this is the post where Chicodoodoo was censored (his text was erased) on Avalon:

Post #58, pag. 3
http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?19645-Another-member-gone.&p=212929&viewfull=1#post212929

And this is Paul’s explanation:



[ Mod-edit: I removed the last paragraph of Chicodoodoo's response. It impugned the motives of not one, but three Avalonians, with some colorful examples to boot. Yes, I see Chicodoodoo's request above that such examples be discussed openly. No -- such will be deleted from this forum. Chicodoodoo is enjoying a one week vacation from this good forum. - Paul. ]

My question to Paul is:

What did Chicodoodoo say?

I’d like to know it so that I can judge by myself and make my own mind of whether Chicodoodoo deserved or not to be temporarily banned.

In the meantime, if the “checks and balances” system in this forum was already working (but it is not yet), I would clic on the “thank you” button for Paul because I appreciate that he acted as a moderator, but I would also clic on the “I don’t agree” button for Paul, because he erased something without giving me (us) the opportunity of seeing what it was, so that we could make up our own minds about it.

-------------------------------

With regards to this paragraph by Paul (see previous page):



That you (Chicodoodoo) would overlook this major and obvious difference between nations and web forums (and that you would title this thread "Censorship") suggests to me that you are more interested in complaining than in understanding.

Paul, what you label as a “complaint” by Chicodoodoo, I label it as a very good idea, as I explained in my previous post, because what Chicodoodoo is saying with this whole thread is:

Let’s have a “checks and balances” system

…. and that, to me, is such a great idea and such a reasonable proposition.

But let’s supposed for a minute it was a complaint. So? What’s the problem with that? Don’t we have “freedom of expression” even to complain about things we want to complain about?

Freedom of expression
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_speech



Freedom of speech is the freedom to speak freely without censorship.

The synonymous term freedom of expression is sometimes used to indicate not only freedom of verbal speech but any act of seeking, receiving and imparting information or ideas, regardless of the medium used.

In my opinion, Paul’s interventions (erasing text, etc.) are good reasons to introduce as soon as possible the “checks and balances” system that Chicodoodoo has suggested, just in case.

Moderators also need to be moderated, just as the power of the executive, legislative and judicial branches needs to be checked and balanced.

Checks and balances
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk%3AChecks_and_balances#checks_vs_balances



checks and balences are just so each house can make sure not just one has too much power.

Separation of powers
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Separation_of_powers



Separation of powers….. Under this model, the state is divided into branches, each with separate and independent powers and areas of responsibility so that no one branch has more power than the other branches.

[ThePythonicCow]

It is essentially saying, "You either agree with us, or we don't want to hear you."

I can't help but agree with Chicodoodoo here; the logic of his reduction is unpalatable but, I think, undeniable.
The need to provide an open forum for a variety of views must be balanced with the need for people with shared values and interests to freely associate.

Insisting that any group allow all views to be expressed leads to many towers of Babel.

It is healthier to have a variety of groups, communities, organizations, and other associations of people with various specialized interests and viewpoints. It is good that, for example, the local Catholic church that my sister attends is not compelled to hear my rather more atheist views, or that the local Dallas Cowboys fan club is not compelled to hear my praise of San Francisco Forty-Niner quarterback Joe Montana.

It's not agree with us or we don't want to hear you. It's contribute to the common interests, purposes and (varied) viewpoints of a group, or contribute to some other group(s) instead.


There are plenty of forums which allow ad hominem attacks and have little to no moderation. This forum is not one of those types of forums. If someone enjoys that style of interacting it's pretty easy to find those forums.Exactly .

[SKAWF]

why i'm walking this path again i dont know, but here i am.

i was once 'holidayed' for 2 weeks it was a long time ago, and in a galaxy far far away,
the reason was because i 'insulted' another member.
as it happens, i didnt insult anyone.
i made an observation about someones reaction to another members post.
my memory is like video. i remember quite a lot of what i say. word for word.

so when i saw that my post had been removed, and that i'd been suspended
for insulting another member i was shocked, for about ten seconds.
it wasnt only that the post was removed,
it was the mod edit that said id insulted someone. i hadnt.
but its ok to write those things about me, even though they are untrue

i would say to Chico though......
he who wins the war writes history.
he who loses has no say.

steve

[Seikou-Kishi]

I think we're all agreed that ad hominem attacks shouldn't be allowed.

[ThePythonicCow]

When I PM'd Paul asking why?

This was the response….
You should be aware, Fred259, that quoting the contents of a PM to others or on the forum, without the senders permission, is against the Guidelines (see link right below.)

[Fred259]

why i'm walking this path again i dont know, but here i am.

i was once 'holidayed' for 2 weeks it was a long time ago, and in a galaxy far far away,
the reason was because i 'insulted' another member.
as it happens, i didnt insult anyone.i made an observation about someones reaction to another members post.
my memory is like video. i remember quite a lot of what i say. word for word.

so when i saw that my post had been removed, and that i'd been suspended
for insulting another member i was shocked, for about ten seconds.
it wasnt only that the post was removed,
it was the mod edit that said id insulted someone. i hadnt.
but its ok to write those things about me, even though they are untrue

i would say to Chico though......
he who wins the war writes history.
he who loses has no say.

steve


This is precisely Chico’s point Checks & Balances…

¤=[Post Update]=¤


[QUOTE=Fred259;219022]When I PM'd Paul asking why?

This was the response….
You should be aware, Fred259, that quoting the contents of a PM to others or on the forum, without the senders permission, is against the Guidelines (see link right below.)

Id quite like a reply actually as to precisely what I have done wrong.. I have replied to you after all.

[Chicodoodoo]

This is where your anger over perceived censorship issues is coming from not Avalon!


I have to disagree.

My first message sent after joining in January was to Bill Ryan. I had been following a thread on the forum when I witnessed an Avalon member (plumr2007) be banned in real time suddenly and without any real justification by Bill Ryan himself. I was shocked, because I was under the impression that truth would never be censored on Avalon. Bill is one of my heroes, and I was having real trouble processing what I had just witnessed. I wrote Bill saying that there had surely been a misunderstanding, and I also asked for leniency for this banned person that I didn't even know. Bill wrote back, thanking me for my integrity and saying he appreciated the message, but he basically reserved the right to ban anyone at any time.

Since then, I have witnessed more unjustified bannings. My integrity requires me to speak out against this censorship. My love of Avalon requires me to work towards a solution to this problem, even in the face of criticism and ridicule.

Forgive me, but I know what I'm doing and why I'm doing it. I have our best interests in mind.

[ThePythonicCow]

Id quite like a reply actually as to ... Right now, the two of us are in disagreement over a key issue. You think I have not spoken, and I think you have not listened.

This thread is not the right venue, nor a healthy venue, for making progress on that issue.

Enough of that complaint here.

[qbeac]

The need to provide an open forum for a variety of views must be balanced with the need for people with shared values and interests to freely associate.…..
Paul, that statement of yours sounds like the statement one would hear in a religious forum:



“If you don’t believe in what we believe, we’ll show you the door, because we don’t debate nor discuss different believes from our own in this forum.”

I have participated in several religious forums for several reasons: to learn, to ask questions, to do research, etc., and, in my opinion, and in my own practical experience, many religious forums are the places where the least amount of freedom of expression exists.

Many religions forums simply do not allow dissension, and they are very strict at it.

However, many of us came to this forum (Avalon) precisely because we do not agree with the society that TPTB have constructed for us, in which censorship and the crushing of dissension is the way things work.

So, I would really appreciate if you could clarify what “shared values and interests” you are referring to? Mine, yours, his….? Whose? Is there a common denominator among all the people who are here, other than we all are or want to be truth seekers?

I don’t know about you all, but that’s my main interest: truth seeking!

And censorship, crushing dissent, or the like, has no place in a truth seeking spirit.

[Dennis Leahy]

I think we're all agreed that ad hominem attacks shouldn't be allowed.

But there is more than ad hominem attacks that are not allowed. The Membership Guidelines (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/faq.php?faq=avalonguidelines#faq_membershipguidelines) spell most of it out. The opposite (and positive reinforcement side of that) is that Bill has asked every member to do their part to make Avalon a respectful community. See the Welcome to Avalon post by Bill: http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?7225-Welcome-to-Avalon!&p=61959&viewfull=1#post61959

So, rather on focusing on what we cannot do, (and some folks just act like children and have to tap a toe just over the line to see what - if anything - will happen), it would be really cool if everyone focused on what we all should do for one another and the Avalon community.

Dennis

[Flash]

Hi Chicodoodoo, I am glad you are back. Your posts, even those I did not agree with, provoked in me quite a lot a thinking. I understand your point of view in terms of circular moderating. Would it be feasible and how, I am not sure. But even thining about it could be ways of moderating that would be easier on the moderators, even if not circular at the end.

One thing is sure though, is that you have been trying to put people together i order to do something as a whole, as a community, for the good of humanity, for a while on this forum. And I thank you for this, it takes quite a lots of energy.

However, I have been a bit paranoidly burned with the outstanding Lors Sidious, and his really great thread. I intervened not knowing of him being of the the Atticus' 18 now 17. I saw some of the things he saw, but i just hope I was not unwillingly part of a program set up with targets that I am not aware of - since we still do not know that the objectives of the 17 are or Atticus' objectives neither.

My question therefore is: Are you one of the remainining 17?

[ThePythonicCow]

I am so laid back the house could burn down and I'd hardly notice, I'd just leave quietly with my kittens and laptop.Sometimes I cannot make head nor tail of your posts, Darla. You are indeed quite different than I. But I just had to say I liked that line. Thanks.

[andywight]

Chicodoodoo, you can shriek "The Censorship Is Here! The Censorship Is Here!" as many times as you want, and it still won't be true. You can find a dozen more people to join in the chorus, "The Censorship Is Here! The Censorship Is Here!", and it still won't be true.

Dennis,

Why don't we have a poll about members thoughts on whether censorship has become a problem here? so we can finally put this matter to rest.

Andy

[Seikou-Kishi]

I think we're all agreed that ad hominem attacks shouldn't be allowed.

But there is more than ad hominem attacks that are not allowed. The Membership Guidelines (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/faq.php?faq=avalonguidelines#faq_membershipguidelines) spell most of it out. The opposite (and positive reinforcement side of that) is that Bill has asked every member to do their part to make Avalon a respectful community. See the Welcome to Avalon post by Bill: http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?7225-Welcome-to-Avalon!&p=61959&viewfull=1#post61959

So, rather on focusing on what we cannot do, (and some folks just act like children and have to tap a toe just over the line to see what - if anything - will happen), it would be really cool if everyone focused on what we all should do for one another and the Avalon community.

Dennis

Oh no I'm fully aware of that Dennis, all I meant was that since we all agree that ad hominem attacks aren't to be tolerated, we can remove that section of the argument... I guess I'm just trying to contain a fire before it burns the whole place down lol

[Fred259]

[QUOTE=Fred259;219041]Id quite like a reply actually as to ... Right now, the two of us are in disagreement over a key issue. You think I have not spoken, and I think you have not listened.

This thread is not the right venue, nor a healthy venue, for making progress on that issue.

Enough of that complaint here.


I agree and respect that, however Chico is talking about checks and balances. That’s my point and his. Why is it you have complete power just to ban or restrict a member for any reason.?

Members who haven’t abused the guidelines like me for example shouldn’t be restricted from where they can post…. Chico’s point on Censorship…

#46 SKAWF… more of the same it would seem….what did he do wrong.. nothing it would seem yet he gets a naughty boy letter…

Where are the checks and balances Paul?

[Carmody]

why i'm walking this path again i dont know, but here i am.

i was once 'holidayed' for 2 weeks it was a long time ago, and in a galaxy far far away,
the reason was because i 'insulted' another member.
as it happens, i didnt insult anyone.i made an observation about someones reaction to another members post.
my memory is like video. i remember quite a lot of what i say. word for word.

so when i saw that my post had been removed, and that i'd been suspended
for insulting another member i was shocked, for about ten seconds.
it wasnt only that the post was removed,
it was the mod edit that said id insulted someone. i hadnt.
but its ok to write those things about me, even though they are untrue

i would say to Chico though......
he who wins the war writes history.
he who loses has no say.

steve


This is precisely Chico’s point Checks & Balances…

¤=[Post Update]=¤


[QUOTE=Fred259;219022]When I PM'd Paul asking why?

This was the response….
You should be aware, Fred259, that quoting the contents of a PM to others or on the forum, without the senders permission, is against the Guidelines (see link right below.)

Id quite like a reply actually as to precisely what I have done wrong.. I have replied to you after all.

To those who are asking for more paperwork, meetings, and democracy.

~~~~~~~
And beyond a certain point, it bears no relevance to the function and the day to day operations and success of the forum as an enterprise where people communicate.

It becomes deconstructive, at the very least.

And, IMO, this is becoming distracting and deconstructive. Argumentative, at the minimum.

Ie, from my observation.. your vision is not my vision nor is it the vision of the majority of members.

You seem to be barking at a tree that has nothing in it. Heck, I don't think the tree is even there.

Democracy, as an execution of an idea does indeed require checks and balances, lest the administrative and relative aspects take precedence over the idea of it's function.

What I see here is a few people that seem to think that administration needs to be bigger than the organism it is in existence for.

This is patently insane.

The other part is that you seem to have a conflict of personality and expression type. That... is inevitable.

It will always happen with a few people.

On this forum, well, it is not feasible to build some grand aspect or structure that services your needs in that respect.

I've been banned form a forum for that very reason: A Personality conflict, my posting style and content of posts... compared to that of other members.

It was simply expedient (and correct for the overall membership)...to not have my type and style on that forum. I was deconstructive to the specifc forum's overall working direction and ambitions. I was unwanted sand in their gears. I was more of a headache than I was worth.

Only this one time I was ever banned.... and it smarted. I was right!

But not for that forum.

Simple enough.

Usually it comes down to an expression characteristic and/or given personal style of human relations.

Claims to censorship bear no relevance here, IMO. one must conduct themselves according to the forum members' overall character, in at least some ways.

Meaning, if the forum's mods find themselves cleaning up a given member's messes fairly often, then it becomes a clear cut case of excising the issue.

After that.... running around wanking loudly about injustices is just blind posturing in my book. I know that my posts seem a bit harsh, but they are meant to be. In order to hopefully get the point across.

I'd swear that some of you have never been in (or near) a management position before and don't really understand the limitations of management and how it NEEDS to go about things in order to keep a system or organization intact and working. That type of system has limits, and they are soft limits, variable limits, limits that move with the situation at hand. They have to be in order to accommodate the variables.

However, IMO, this continual stressing in the one direction is exceeding those sorts of limits.

IMO, your demands are harming the forum and it's day to day operation.

[SKAWF]

__________, once again you've taken a criticism of something you said,
and you've turned it into an attack on someone else.
you did the same thing to me earlier on.

if i can see it, so can others

steve

(that got me banned for a 2 stretch)
there was a little bit more, it refered to the original post, and the poster.

i said i have a very good memory.

[Fred259]

Good point Andy Wright…

Chico, this is your thread, why don’t you do as Andy suggest and put up a poll form on the front of the thread.

IMHO. A key Question “ Do you want checks and balance system introduced”

That will put the issue to rest… Thanks Andy..

[loveandgratitude]

Dealing with a skilled manipulator is often like getting whiplash: you don’t know all that’s really happened until after the damage is done.

Sometimes we need to look to see if we are being manipulate through emotions or herded away or divided in some way. How can this be done by another. Here are some ways we can allow ourselves to be manipulate by our emotions.

Denial – This is when the aggressor refuses to admit that they've done something harmful or hurtful when they clearly have. It's a way they lie (to themselves as well as to others) about their aggressive intentions. This "Who... Me?" tactic is a way of "playing innocent," and invites the victim to feel unjustified in confronting the aggressor about the inappropriateness of a behavior.

It's also the way the aggressor gives him/herself permission to keep right on doing what they want to do. this type of denial is not primarily a "defense" but a maneuver the aggressor uses to get others to back off, back down or maybe even feel guilty themselves for insinuating he's doing something wrong.

Rationalization – A rationalization is the excuse an aggressor tries to offer for engaging in an inappropriate or harmful behavior. It can be an effective tactic, especially when the explanation or justification the aggressor offers makes just enough sense that any reasonably conscientious person is likely to fall for it. It's a powerful tactic because it not only serves to remove any internal resistance the aggressor might have about doing what he wants to do (quieting any qualms of conscience he might have) but also to keep others off his back. If the aggressor can convince you he's justified in whatever he's doing, then he's freer to pursue his goals without interference.

Diversion – A moving target is hard to hit. When we try to pin a manipulator down or try to keep a discussion focused on a single issue or behavior we don't like, he's expert at knowing how to change the subject, dodge the issue or in some way throw us a curve. Manipulators use distraction and diversion techniques to keep the focus off their behavior, move us off-track, and keep themselves free to promote their self-serving hidden agendas.

Covert Intimidation – Aggressors frequently threaten their victims to keep them anxious, apprehensive and in a one-down position. Covert-aggressives intimidate their victims by making veiled (subtle, indirect or implied) threats. Guilt-tripping and shaming are two of the covert-aggressive's favourite weapons. Both are special intimidation tactics.

Shaming – This is the technique of using subtle sarcasm and put-downs as a means of increasing fear and self-doubt in others. Covert-aggressives use this tactic to make others feel inadequate or unworthy, and therefore, defer to them. It's an effective way to foster a continued sense of personal inadequacy in the weaker party, thereby allowing an aggressor to maintain a position of dominance and control over others.

Playing the Victim Role – This tactic involves portraying oneself as an innocent victim of circumstances or someone else's behavior in order to gain sympathy, evoke compassion and thereby get something from another. One thing that covert-aggressive personalities count on is the fact that less calloused and less hostile personalities usually can't stand to see anyone suffering. Therefore, the tactic is simple. Convince your victim you're suffering in some way, and they'll try to relieve your distress.

Vilifying the Victim – This tactic is frequently used in conjunction with the tactic of playing the victim role. The aggressor uses this tactic to make it appear he is only responding (i.e. defending himself against) aggression on the part of the victim. It enables the aggressor to better put the victim on the defensive.


Projecting the blame (blaming others) – Aggressive personalities are always looking for a way to shift the blame for their aggressive behavior. Covert-aggressives are not only skilled at finding scapegoats, they're expert at doing so in subtle, hard to detect ways.

Minimization – This tactic is a unique kind of denial coupled with rationalization. When using this maneuver, the aggressor is attempting to assert that his abusive behavior isn't really as harmful or irresponsible as someone else may be claiming. It's the aggressor's attempt to make a molehill out of a mountain.

I've presented the principal tactics that covert-aggressives use to manipulate and control others. They are not always easy to recognize. Although all aggressive personalities tend to use these tactics, covert-aggressives generally use them slickly, subtly and adeptly. Anyone dealing with a covertly aggressive person will need to heighten gut-level sensitivity to the use of these tactics if they're to avoid being taken in by them.


ONE OF THE MAJOR LESSONS AVALONIANS HAD THIS WEEK WAS -


"When you hold resentment toward another, you are bound to that person or condition by an emotional link that is stronger than steel. Forgiveness is the only way to dissolve that link and get free." ~ Catherine Ponder

Ho’oponopono means to “make right” and is the Hawaiian for forgiveness. Ho'oponopono restores your light or energy body and your e-motion, or energy in motion. Through your light body you are connected with all of life. Through your e-motion you are always affecting everyone around you by your thoughts, words, feelings and actions.

To heal any split or feeling of separation within yourself, or between you and another person, first say with genuine feeling, "I apologize," and then, "Please forgive me."

By saying "I apologize," you are asking for forgiveness inside yourself in order to release and let go of the bad feelings of discomfort like guilt, and shame inside of you. Forgiveness does not mean you are condoning anyone’s behavior. Forgiveness simply means you no longer wish to suffer from a past issue.

God/Goddess and all that is,
Angels, guides, ancestors, teachers, and friends,
I call upon all who love me to witness for me now,
In deep appreciation for my soul’s journey
I acknowledge my unfoldment,
Bless my path as I release struggles,
and burdens from my life.
And so it is.

Ultimately Forgiveness is a mystical revelation and experience; by performing Ho'oponopono the Law of Grace is activated to free you from your karmic (cause and effect) entanglements.

[ThePythonicCow]

That will put the issue to rest… Thanks Andy..
Polls do not mandate forum organization, procedure or guidelines.

Right now, it seems that so long as those members remain here who are determined to keep making an issue of this, just so long will the issue not be put to rest.

[Fred259]

That will put the issue to rest… Thanks Andy..
Polls do not mandate forum organization, procedure or guidelines.

Right now, it seems that so long as those members remain here who are determined to keep making an issue of this, just so long will the issue not be put to rest.

No but they might help you to understand how people like Chico and I feel at your dictatorial attitude Paul.

Why don’t you answer the question about Chico and his Checks and Balances suggestion?

What happened to SKAWF? Why was he AWOL for two weeks?

[Seikou-Kishi]

God/Goddess and all that is,
Angels, guides, ancestors, teachers, and friends,
I call upon all who love me to witness for me now,
In deep appreciation for my soul’s journey
I acknowledge my unfoldment,
Bless my path as I release struggles,
and burdens from my life.
And so it is.


Thanks so much for this. I really enjoyed reading it :-)
You have my love and gratitude, love and gratitude.

[Seikou-Kishi]

That will put the issue to rest… Thanks Andy..
Polls do not mandate forum organization, procedure or guidelines.

Right now, it seems that so long as those members remain here who are determined to keep making an issue of this, just so long will the issue not be put to rest.

No but they might help you to understand how people like Chico and I feel at your dictatorial attitude Paul.

Why don’t you answer the question about Chico and his Checks and Balances suggestion?

What happened to SKAWF? Why was he AWOL for two weeks?

.........................................

[Fred259]

[QUOTE=Fred259;219058]

[QUOTE]Right now, it seems that so long as those members remain here who are determined to keep making an issue of this, just so long will the issue not be put to rest.
That’s Balderdash Paul, The problem is you never answer a question. Chico has continually championed the cause of those who were sacked retied or sent to dig the garden.

Paul remember this… many members have contributed with time and money. We don’t know if any have made a financial contribution to Bill It doesn’t matter. What he wants is answers to his questions. Stop sitting on the fence and start seeing sense.

Bottom Line. Its not an issue, but if you ignore members questions it becomes an issue. You create the issues…don’t you see that..

[loveandgratitude]

FRED - Maybe you missed the lesson on Ho’oponopono. I think you need to revise the lesson like a good student like we all are.

Paul, thank you and I thank all the other moderators for a wonderful and difficult job that you all excel at.

A MESSGE FOR OTHERS WHO WANT TO ATTACK AND CRITIZE. Relax. It's hard to cultivate a sense of gratitude when you're angry, frustrated, or anxious. If you're too busy dwelling on the past you won't be able to fully notice how fantastic things are right now. Have you not noticed how wonderful things are flowing here at Avalon at the moment. The most amazing intelligent and thought expanding discussions at the moment. Maybe you need to bring something of value to the table or excuse yourself and allow fellow Avalonians to continue discussing more imporant issues.

[Fred259]

FRED - Maybe you missed the lesson on Ho’oponopono. I think you need to revise the lesson like a good student like we all are.
That rich from you.. thanks for telling me to go to hell this afternoon, but I suppose the mods must have missed that one…

Reply to the thread will you…

[Carmody]

[QUOTE=Fred259;219058]

[QUOTE]Right now, it seems that so long as those members remain here who are determined to keep making an issue of this, just so long will the issue not be put to rest.
That’s Balderdash Paul, The problem is you never answer a question. Chico has continually championed the cause of those who were sacked retied or sent to dig the garden.

Paul remember this… many members have contributed with time and money. We don’t know if any have made a financial contribution to Bill It doesn’t matter. What he wants is answers to his questions. Stop sitting on the fence and start seeing sense.

Bottom Line. Its not an issue, but if you ignore members questions it becomes an issue. You create the issues…don’t you see that..

ah, no. I see you creating an issue right here.

Nor is it feasible to have Paul make a nice 20 page thesis on the care and feeding of one member of a forum.

If you give a damn, stop damaging the people who give you a functional place to communicate.

Give your head a shake and stop being deconstructive. Ie, recognize your internal personality conflict and relational issue, regarding this situation.

Skawf had the right attitude, in order to help keep the forum functional.

Like me being banned from that forum..he let it go.

A more harsh and even possibly incorrect thought on my part is, and it is possible to extrapolate from your behavior is that:

This constant pressure tells me that the two of you don't believe in this forum, but you believe in your right to wank about it. Democracy, my ass. This is plain and simple egotistical wanking.

Or, perhaps you are missing some data point, or I am. However this forum and how it operates is not the question. It never was.

An act of conflating your mental parameters with how this forum works is not a issue that the forum and it's administration should be dealing with.

[Fred259]

[QUOTE=Fred259;219058]

[QUOTE]Right now, it seems that so long as those members remain here who are determined to keep making an issue of this, just so long will the issue not be put to rest.
That’s Balderdash Paul, The problem is you never answer a question. Chico has continually championed the cause of those who were sacked retied or sent to dig the garden.

Paul remember this… many members have contributed with time and money. We don’t know if any have made a financial contribution to Bill It doesn’t matter. What he wants is answers to his questions. Stop sitting on the fence and start seeing sense.

Bottom Line. Its not an issue, but if you ignore members questions it becomes an issue. You create the issues…don’t you see that..

ah, no. I see you creating an issue right here.

Nor is it feasible to have Paul make a nice 20 page thesis on the care and feeding of one member of a forum.

As Teakai would say. Were “splashing around in puddles” here.. Chico has raised some very valid points and the mods need to take his post #1 seriously.

Where are the answers. The issues in Chico’s post must be addressed…

[loveandgratitude]

FRED -

Ho'oponopono - Hawaiian Code of Forgiveness

I LOVE YOU

I AM SORRY

PLEASE FORGIVE ME

THANK YOU

[Dennis Leahy]

Chicodoodoo, you can shriek "The Censorship Is Here! The Censorship Is Here!" as many times as you want, and it still won't be true. You can find a dozen more people to join in the chorus, "The Censorship Is Here! The Censorship Is Here!", and it still won't be true.

Dennis,

Why don't we have a poll about members thoughts on whether censorship has become a problem here? so we can finally put this matter to rest.

Andy

Would 95% to 5% "put it to rest"? How about 80% to 20%? 70% to 30%? 67% (a 2/3 majority, just like Congress) or maybe a simple majority, 51% winner-takes-all and they get to redefine the moderation guidelines?

A poll would not put this to rest. Some people enjoy controversy - it is their entertainment.

Many of the people who have been moderated probably think they were unfairly moderated, but that does not mean it is true.

I have a small amount of time I am able to give to Avalon as a moderator, and I give it freely and do my best. It appears to me that some folks have the mistaken notion that being a moderator is, or should be, a full time job.

I'll try one more time...

Imagine an umpire in a baseball game. A good guy, trying his best. A ball comes sizzling in and it is just barely over the corner of the plate. He calls a strike. Depending on where you were in the stadium, or the batters box, it sure as hell looks like a bad call.

BOOOO! is heard from a handful of people. The batter spits on the ground and has a mild temper tantrum on his way to the dugout, He is POSITIVE it was not a strike! He talks about it for weeks, months, maybe even years, as do some of the fans. They even play it back - on videotape - and although the camera angle is not exactly the same as what the umpire saw, the videotape is "proof" to the disgruntled fans that their batter was robbed!

The umpire did his best job, gave an honest call, and is done with it. He has a life to live, and is not going to re-live and re-argue that pitch every time a disgruntled fan starts complaining.

Dennis

[Fred259]

FRED -

Ho'oponopono - Hawaiian Code of Forgiveness

I LOVE YOU

I AM SORRY

PLEASE FORGIVE ME

THANK YOU
No your two faced.Reply to the Fulford post and I might consider it…

[davyj0nes]

its so funny, avalon gets extended the left hand with forgiveness and with the right gets slapped with charges censorship.

[Seikou-Kishi]

FRED -

Ho'oponopono - Hawaiian Code of Forgiveness

I LOVE YOU

I AM SORRY

PLEASE FORGIVE ME

THANK YOU
No your two faced.Reply to the Fulford post and I might consider it…

Again with the ad hominem attacks. This place is so censored that you're getting away scott-free with your ad hominem attacks on people. Two on L&G and one on Paul. Three good reasons to have you censored right there and has it happened? I suspect that would only be playing into your hands. Oh yeah, Paul's still the devil incarnate... sheesh.

[Karma Ninja]

It seems as though every week now there is a new thread started about how someone feels slighted by the decisions made by the moderators. As a casually interested observer, I can say that the people who write these thread are often the ones affected by the mods decisions.

A tiny minority of the 3400+ members feels strongly enough about these issues to voice them or support them.

It comes down to bruised egos and inability to understand the expectations and rules put in place for this forum. They are spelled out quite clearly and all who joined responded to a thread that means we acknowledged them. Sometimes we feel as though our sense of what is right or wrong is the norm. Whenever we falsely place our own ideas of what is normal, to a group of thousands, we will inevitably find ourselves being wrong. Maybe not to the whole or the majority...but someone will disagree. In this case a very small but very loud minority is trumpeting the need for a new set of mods or another system of checks and balances. It is a simple equation...if you don't like the way you were treated here and you can't get the justice or answers you are looking for...leave. Go with your head held high that you tried and failed at making the forum think your way. It is a normal part of life.

I think it is absurd to ask for a new set of moderators for the moderators. Just like big government is a waste of time another group of moderators is a waste of time too. Why is it so hard to understand that this is Bill Ryan's forum and Bill chooses the moderators. If someone is going to overrule or change a mod, I will go out on a limb and assume that person will be Bill. It is also apparent that Bill will consult with the mod team and make group decisions. These choices are not made in a vacuum. The feel or the mood of the forum is decided by Bill. We have been drawn and in some cases repelled by the decisions made by Bill and all that is fine. It is normal to not agree with all our fellow human beings.

The main part of the forum that I dislike is threads like this...which amounts to childish squabbling in my opinion. They are counter productive. self serving, obviously negative and poisonous to the environment. But that is just my opinion for what it's worth. Let's just get on with life please... Chicodoodoo I have read some of your posts and you can contribute in a way more productive and more helpful way than this. Your insights can be valuable...did you really spend a week talking with your friends on the Nexus2012 forum to come back here to do this?

This forum should be better than this...

[Carmody]

[QUOTE=Fred259;219058]

[QUOTE]Right now, it seems that so long as those members remain here who are determined to keep making an issue of this, just so long will the issue not be put to rest.
That’s Balderdash Paul, The problem is you never answer a question. Chico has continually championed the cause of those who were sacked retied or sent to dig the garden.

Paul remember this… many members have contributed with time and money. We don’t know if any have made a financial contribution to Bill It doesn’t matter. What he wants is answers to his questions. Stop sitting on the fence and start seeing sense.

Bottom Line. Its not an issue, but if you ignore members questions it becomes an issue. You create the issues…don’t you see that..

ah, no. I see you creating an issue right here.

Nor is it feasible to have Paul make a nice 20 page thesis on the care and feeding of one member of a forum.

As Teakai would say. Were “splashing around in puddles” here.. Chico has raised some very valid points and the mods need to take his post #1 seriously.

Where are the answers. The issues in Chico’s post must be addressed…

last post and I'm out of this unwarranted intrusion into this forum. I repeat:

An act of conflating your mental parameters with how this forum works is not a issue that the forum and it's administration should be dealing with.

[Ross]

I can see all sides to this...just want to say the full moon is upon us:yo:

Ross

[SKAWF]

i'm jus sat here thinking.......

how much of this is important? sure it'd be nice to have checks an balances in internet forums,
but its meaningless at the end of the day.
why are we here trying to build a virtual community
when most dont know the people in their own street (well i dont!)
none of this matters.
i disagree with fred about chemtrails,
how much bearing will that have on my life?, i'll tell you.... NONE.
we are getting passionate about words on a screen.
the only persons standards you should care about are your own
likewise the only definition of integrity is your own.
if you feel its being compromised then,
then the ball is in your court.
i reckon that if you see everything outside of yourself as a deliberate distraction from your inner self,
then taking part in this is ludicrous. a merry go round. in pointless circles forever.
lets not forget, this is only the internet.
the last cul de sac before the great realisation. a stepping stone,
that is unless you actually intended spending the rest of your existance staring at a screen.

i have ferrets to attend to.

steve

[Seikou-Kishi]

I can see all sides to this...just want to say the full moon is upon us:yo:

Ross

Ross the Ross? Long time no see

[ThePythonicCow]

Oh yeah, Paul's still the devil incarnate
I've thinking of changing my forum Title from "Administrator" to "Tyrannical Censor" (in jest at this.)

I gave up on Fred259. He is now enjoying a one week vacation for ad hominem attacks.

[Seikou-Kishi]

Oh yeah, Paul's still the devil incarnate
I've thinking of changing my forum Title from "Administrator" to "Tyrannical Censor" (in jest at this.)

I gave up on Fred259. He is now enjoying a one week vacation for ad hominem attacks.

Try Führer. At least then they can leave to screams of "Jaa, mein Führer!" lol

[Chicodoodoo]

This constant pressure tells me that the two of you don't believe in this forum, but you believe in your right to wank about it. Democracy, my ass. This is plain and simple egotistical wanking.

I thought impugning the motives of fellow members is a one-week suspension. And Paul, you thanked this post! What is going on here? Are we all tumbling down the rabbit hole?

The subject of this post is addressing the issue of unwarranted censorship, which some insist never occurs on Avalon, and coming up with a way to moderate the moderation team (which includes Bill) when they get off-track, which some insist never happens. Isn't it strange that some people are vehemently opposed to this rather innocent subject? If unwarranted censorship was not a problem, no one would get very excited about this, and moderators would not be coiled and ready to strike. So could it be, just maybe, that there is a crucial problem inherent in Avalon (and most other forums) that could be addressed for the mutual benefit of all members?

[andywight]

A poll would not put this to rest. Some people enjoy controversy - it is their entertainment.


If you make statements like this Dennis, you should be prepared, as a Moderator, to be questioned as to who in your opinion are these people.

So, who in your opinion are the people who enjoy controversy for their entertainment?


This constant pressure tells me that the two of you don't believe in this forum, but you believe in your right to wank about it. Democracy, my ass. This is plain and simple egotistical wanking.

Carmody, can you please explain to us all what a "wanker" is?

[Carmody]

This constant pressure tells me that the two of you don't believe in this forum, but you believe in your right to wank about it. Democracy, my ass. This is plain and simple egotistical wanking.

I thought impugning the motives of fellow members is a one-week suspension. And Paul, you thanked this post! What is going on here? Are we all tumbling down the rabbit hole?

The subject of this post is addressing the issue of unwarranted censorship, which some insist never occurs on Avalon, and coming up with a way to moderate the moderation team (which includes Bill) when they get off-track, which some insist never happens. Isn't it strange that some people are vehemently opposed to this rather innocent subject? If unwarranted censorship was not a problem, no one would get very excited about this, and moderators would not be coiled and ready to strike. So could it be, just maybe, that there is a crucial problem inherent in Avalon (and most other forums) that could be addressed for the mutual benefit of all members?

I said: possibly incorrect, and I said it quite nicely. I thought.

to continue..sadly...:

What? You want the rules to be one way? One where you don't have to realize your own seeming confrontational and aggressive tendencies, that I feel I see and note... in almost any post you may make, that I may perchance read??

Does the forum need emotional tirades? Or posts based in such posturing and language? I feel it does not. I tolerate them, or I read another thread. For it is not my decision. I'm not administration.

And yes, I do still feel that you are chasing ghosts. ghosts that don't exist. ghosts of your own creation.

[Ross]

Have you not noticed how wonderful things are flowing here at Avalon at the moment. The most amazing intelligent and thought expanding discussions at the moment.

Not particularly myself...before 1st Jan 2011, this forum was excellent. 2000 new members and you will always see a change in energy and direction. Bill has decided to change direction, this is why I left as a mod. Many older members also saw this. This is part of the problem for some. I personally "got over it" and still enjoy reading some threads here, but I cannot say with sincerity that it is a better forum than before. It simply is not, imho.

The Mod team are doing their best, with the direction that Avalon has taken. It can be a very difficult job dealing with varible personalities, especially when changes are made with opposing view points of such. What also occurs with many, is a personal attachment to the community, which is understandable, I myself felt that way once. The best approach is one of non-personal attachment, take what you like and leave alone what you don't...this also applies to The admin and Mod team, not always easy but its the best way to stay balanced and neutral as a contributor and a Mod/Admin...we all fail at this from time to time...me included....and I say again, the full moon is abound. Was always a tricky time for Mods:nod:

Peace ya'all

Ross

[truthseekerdan]

Carmody, can you please explain to us all what a "wanker" is?

Take your pick: http://www.thefreedictionary.com/wanking

[Carmody]

Have you not noticed how wonderful things are flowing here at Avalon at the moment. The most amazing intelligent and thought expanding discussions at the moment.

Not particularly myself...before 1st Jan 2011, this forum was excellent. 2000 new members and you will always see a change in energy and direction. Bill has decided to change direction, this is why I left as a mod. Many older members have also seen this. This is part of the problem for some. I personally "got over it" and still enjoy reading some threads here, but I cannot say with sincerity that it is a better forum than before. It simply is not, imho.

The Mod team are doing their best, with the direction that Avalon has taken. It can be a very difficult job dealing with varible personalities, especially when changes are made with opposing view points of such. What also occurs with many, is a personal attachment to the community, which is understandable, I myself felt that way once. The best approach is one of non-personal attachment, take what you like and leave alone what you don't...this also applies to The admin and Mod team, not always easy but its the best way to stay balanced and neutral as a contributor and a Mod/Admin...we all fail at this from time to time...me included....and I say again, the full moon is abound. Was always a tricky time for Mods:nod:

Peace ya'all

Ross

Yeah Ross, I agree. I want to be on the other forum as well, but the vibe is quite different. I have friends there that I want to have laughs and fun with but every time I go to post, I'm not sure what response I'm going to get. I feel a bit down about the whole thing. I stepped into that vibe a bit too much.... and I made a post I should not have, IMO.

¤=[Post Update]=¤



A poll would not put this to rest. Some people enjoy controversy - it is their entertainment.


If you make statements like this Dennis, you should be prepared, as a Moderator, to be questioned as to who in your opinion are these people.

So, who in your opinion are the people who enjoy controversy for their entertainment?


This constant pressure tells me that the two of you don't believe in this forum, but you believe in your right to wank about it. Democracy, my ass. This is plain and simple egotistical wanking.

Carmody, can you please explain to us all what a "wanker" is?

this connotation, from the link: excite, stir, stimulate - stir feelings in; "stimulate my appetite"; "excite the audience"; "stir emotions"

in this case, of the self.

[Chicodoodoo]

My question therefore is: Are you one of the remaining 17?

No. I'm completely independent of Charles. I'm also completely independent of Bill and the moderators. I'm on my own, an army of one, so to speak.


did you really spend a week talking with your friends on the Nexus2012 forum to come back here to do this?

No. There's no conspiracy involved here. I did not spend a week talking to friends on Nexus so that I could come back here to do this. You're welcome to investigate this over at Nexus, if you doubt my word. Also, be careful, as you are impugning my motives here, and the last time I was falsely accused of that, I got suspended from Avalon by Paul for one week. It can happen to anyone, and repeatedly has, and therein lies the problem.

[andywight]

Carmody, can you please explain to us all what a "wanker" is?

Take your pick: http://www.thefreedictionary.com/wanking

So we've got someone in Romania explaining to someone in the Bahamas something written by someone located winning the galactic lottery.

It doesn't get any better than this folks! (smiley of Oolong the bunny with a pancake on his head)

[Dennis Leahy]

The subject of this post is addressing the issue of unwarranted censorship, which some insist never occurs on Avalon, and coming up with a way to moderate the moderation team (which includes Bill) when they get off-track, which some insist never happens. Isn't it strange that some people are vehemently opposed to this rather innocent subject? If unwarranted censorship was not a problem, no one would get very excited about this, and moderators would not be coiled and ready to strike. So could it be, just maybe, that there is a crucial problem inherent in Avalon (and most other forums) that could be addressed for the mutual benefit of all members?

Or, could it be that it is not a crucial problem, but you and a few others are simply screaming so loudly that it sounds like there's a fire - and others wonder why you are screaming.

I was really hoping that you'd see that the triple infraction that got you a vacation was fair, and that you'd come back to the forum with something positive. Now this. I was convinced you had more than this.

You wanted a forum that operates to your vision, and so you went elsewhere and created one, right? Why are you still insisting that Bill change this one to your vision too? It is not going to happen, and Bill was pretty clear about it. There won't be a team of moderators moderating the moderators, and there won't be a system of endlessly dragging up old infractions and discussing them to death. We're doing our best. If it's over the corner of the plate, it's a strike, and we're not going to watch the instant replay with you. Move on.

This thread isn't constructive, it is a silly distraction to all of the many things going on in the world that deserve our attention. You are wasting the time and the potential of at least 100 people so far. You are, and have been, beating this dead horse ad infinitum, and you knew it was a dead horse before your vacation because you have beaten this dead horse before. This is an incredible waste of time, clearly "not in the spirit of Avalon", clearly divisive and distracting - the most divisive and distracting thread in the past week on Avalon by far.

Dennis

[truthseekerdan]

Carmody, can you please explain to us all what a "wanker" is?

Take your pick: http://www.thefreedictionary.com/wanking

So we've got someone in Romania explaining to someone in the Bahamas something written by someone located winning the galactic lottery.

It doesn't get any better than this folks! (smiley of Oolong the bunny with a pancake on his head)

Your signature says it all... ;)

[astrid]

IMO, when the **** really hits the fan,

some people are going to really regret they wasted so much energy on things that have no consequence to the bigger picture.

Just to remind people the planet needs you right now.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CQvcVWuRVpw

[loveandgratitude]

God and angels don't get paid even though theirs is some of the most important work around. Ditto for volunteers. ~Cherishe Archer


Volunteers are love in motion! Remember kind people of AVALON.... The Moderators are volunteers. They give their time freely and generously. Do they deserve disdain, scorn, ridicule. Are they paid enough to take this crap. I THINK NOT. Volunteers do it for free.

Please, give freely your thanks, gratitude to these wonderful people who make this all possible. We often take for granted the very things that most deserve our gratitude.

Remember Moderators AND OF COURSE BILL, Kindness, like a boomerang, always returns.

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR ALL YOU DO IN THE SPIRIT OF KINDNESS. MANY MANY BLESSING UPON YOU FOR ETERNITY.

[SKAWF]

the most divisive and distracting thread in the past week on Avalon by far.

Dennis

maybe next week or so you'll find that statement as funny as i do

[davyj0nes]

I don't think avalon will have to put up with these type threads for much longer. tactics like this are self limiting. eventually, a pattern of agitation develops where the mods will be forced to act. The sooner avalon untangles itself from the past, the sooner it can move forward.

[Chicodoodoo]

This thread isn't constructive, it is a silly distraction to all of the many things going on in the world that deserve our attention. You are wasting the time and the potential of at least 100 people so far. You are, and have been, beating this dead horse ad infinitum, and you knew it was a dead horse before your vacation because you have beaten this dead horse before. This is an incredible waste of time, clearly "not in the spirit of Avalon", clearly divisive and distracting - the most divisive and distracting thread in the past week on Avalon by far.

When someone speaks out against the wrong-doings of a corrupt government, they are labeled as distracting, divisive, subversive, insurgent, or even accused of being a terrorist. Avalon is a microcosm of the larger world. The same issues that hobble the world are playing out here. I had the impression that one of the goals of Avalon was to be a model that would demonstrate to the world how a community could work together to solve problems. I still have that view, and I'm still trying to work towards that goal. Even now.

Be the change you wish to see in the world.

[ThePythonicCow]

Be the change you wish to see in the world.
We wish you well in your endeavors, Chicodoodoo.

Your Project Avalon account has been deactivated.

As it states in the forum Guidelines:

Anyone who does not appear to be in alignment with the purpose and energy of the forum may be asked to leave.

[Siberia9]

I have an idea, how about we just moderate ourselves, if there is a thread like this that anyone here doesnt like and thinks its devisive etc then those people could make one post that says "Devisive, Im Out" and that would make a statement and a protest if you will, that would leave the few that would like to complain about a subject to themselves and there would be no one to insult or attack and they would get board agreeing with each other and it would fizzle out when they are ready. If you agree with this idea then plant your flag on the field and cross your arms and turn your back in quiet protest. No one can insult you for that and they cant get into trouble either. Just an idea..

[Karma Ninja]

did you really spend a week talking with your friends on the Nexus2012 forum to come back here to do this?

No. There's no conspiracy involved here. I did not spend a week talking to friends on Nexus so that I could come back here to do this. You're welcome to investigate this over at Nexus, if you doubt my word. Also, be careful, as you are impugning my motives here, and the last time I was falsely accused of that, I got suspended from Avalon by Paul for one week. It can happen to anyone, and repeatedly has, and therein lies the problem.

I don't see how I have to be careful, far from 'impugning your motives' I was simply asking a question. You answered it, ignored my other points and sent me a warning about how my actions could get me banned or suspended. If you check my other posts you will see I am far from confrontational but I do take exception to these ego escapades. I don't go about making comparisons to this site, it's moderators and all the evils of the world.

I read your posts on the thread about 'having your membership cancelled' from Avalon. I suggest anyone here go ahead and read from about page 33 onwards on that thread and get a real clear example of why some of Avalons past members are gone. I also miss the input from some of those people and wish they could have compromised a bit more. Read that thread you contributed to and read what you thank people for saying. The thread is replete with fairly malicious and accusatory rants filled with venom from people who used to be here. It is also one of the most populated threads on the site. You challenged the integrity of the statements and motives of the people who run this site. I don't sit here saying I agree with all of the decisions made by Avalons mods but I can't say for certainty they were wrong either. What you are mad about is not the decisions themselves but only the ones against people who you agreed with or felt strongly about. This is what I meant by self-serving. After reading your comments I can't understand why you would want to come back. If we all read between the lines it becomes obvious.

Do you understand the vitally important and insanely critical part about this being Bill's forum? Do you understand that this is not your forum? Why are you imposing your wishes on this site who's integrity and motives you cannot trust? There is no outcry here save for from a few. You have a choice to make and I am sure you and all the others will make it.

I get that you feel there is a lot of negative stuff going on in the world. I absolutely agree that it is overwhelming to consider the terrible things that happen and get frustrated that people aren't willing to do something about it. But contrary to you, I appreciate those who want to create a better place and contribute in a positive manner. After 20 years of research I feel the positive people are the most important thing going out there. Okay, I know you think what is portrayed as good is actually evil but why can't you respect people's rights or desires to see it another way? How can you know for sure you are right? Why do we need to be cynical and critical of everything including the people on this forum?

You can contribute more if you remember that the method in which we deliver a message is sometimes more important than the words we choose.

Peace!

Edit: I didn't realize Chico's account had been deactivated but would like to add that I wish him well in his future and will miss his contributions. Hope you find what you want over at Nexus2012! I noticed he is already logged on over there.

[Siberia9]

Well that ends that. No fighting allowed kids. I can work with that, its easy enough, I dont like soap opera's anyway. In fact Im dissapointed that I even wasted my time reading this thread I could have spent my energy on something positive instead.

[ThePythonicCow]

I could have spent my energy on something positive instead.
Well said.

[Ross]

Be the change you wish to see in the world.
We wish you well in your endeavors, Chicodoodoo.

Your Project Avalon account has been deactivated.

As it states in the forum Guidelines:

Anyone who does not appear to be in alignment with the purpose and energy of the forum may be asked to leave.

That is a real shame...

[NancyV]

Be the change you wish to see in the world.
We wish you well in your endeavors, Chicodoodoo.

Your Project Avalon account has been deactivated.

As it states in the forum Guidelines:

Anyone who does not appear to be in alignment with the purpose and energy of the forum may be asked to leave.
Thank you, Paul. I think you gave him what he must have been wanting. He would have to be insane if he didn't think his words would lead to his account being deactivated and I don't think he's at all insane. I liked Chico but I didn't like his constant criticisms and divisiveness. So goodbye, Chico, I'll miss you and I hope you enjoy whatever forum you spend your time on next.

Nancy :hug:

[Mad Hatter]

Mad Hatter dons his observer hat...

1) Anyone see the fact that some are so attached to a particular view that a devils advocate position equates to an ad hom attack in their eyes...
2) Anyone see that despite the inventor of democracy stating it sucked, mankind, on the whole, hasn't grown up enough to attempt discussing something better...
3) Anyone see that
one of the goals of Avalon was to be a model that would demonstrate to the world how a community could work together to solve problems. followed immediately by
Anyone who does not appear to be in alignment with the purpose and energy of the forum may be asked to leave. is unfortunate timing...

CYA chico I do appreciate all the times you made me stop and think, although if Avalon had a Sandpaper Award you'd have won it every time hands down...:p

[FrankoL]

IMO, now mods are not that restrictive then former garniture. Less oppressive I would say. They have to be to maintain forum alive.

Problem is product and its lifecycle. On 1.January, extension was made therefore forum was not dead that soon...in fact forum is still running. Also new entries are scheduled which is good for its lifespan. Bill is very clever and could be also a good entrepreneur....actually he is excellent one.

People are consumers, therefore sooner or later we fulfil our needs. That's simple logic, isn't it? Other than that is not rational, for fools, so to say. You found here what you have searched for, now what? ... a bedtime story and kiss for good night... Good morning.

[Davidallany]

The thought manifests as the word; The word manifests as the deed; The deed develops into habit; And habit hardens into character. So watch the thought and its ways with care, And let it spring from love Born out of concern for all beings.
-The Buddha
May all beings be happy-hearted.

[sandy]

Be the change you wish to see in the world.
We wish you well in your endeavors, Chicodoodoo.

Your Project Avalon account has been deactivated.

As it states in the forum Guidelines:

Anyone who does not appear to be in alignment with the purpose and energy of the forum may be asked to leave.

That is a real shame...

Hey Ross,

I couldn't agree more and it is not only a shame but is sad:( too. You will be missed Chico!!

I do have to say that I feel confused by those who partake it this thread and then do not take the personal responsibility for doing so and abdicate their wasted time or writings to the negativity they experience. I hope somewhere there is a message that people get when it comes to assigning negativity to someone that they appeared to be taking part in>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>But for the grace of God go I!!!

[ROMANWKT]

Another boring waste of time crap thread, contributes to nothing.

regards to all

roman

[Tangri]

well,
I just finished page 3 (half way) What, I understand from the mod's job is they have to watch language and tone usage not about subject . If it stays in that range it is necessary but if exceeds because of personal conflict then need a watcher for the watcher Like Richard's case. I was shocked with his emotional outburst to the another member.

Love and Peace

[Lord Sidious]

Being a mod is not easy.

An admin is not only in charge of what is said above, but also of taking care of the website in its entirety, which includes technical problems and glitches, and editing the website.

For all moderatos these qualifications must be respected:

You must fully respect Bill Ryan. This is his site, and you have the privilege of moderating it.

You must respect and honour, and make others honour, the rules.

You must be fair when you moderate. Do not be too harsh, or too passive. Forgive a lot of minor offenses, but never forget them.

Be objective when you moderate. Do not defend anybody because they're your friend. Do so only because you see it as being rational, fair and right. Do not let an offense from somebody slip because you're they're friend. Whoever does not respect the rules must be notified of that.

Do not abuse your privileges. Yes, you do have more rights than a member, but that doesn't mean you can be an a** about it.

Gaia

Sounds easy, but I bet it isn't.
It is the 50/50 posts that can be a challenge. Did the poster mean x or did they mean y?
With as much traffic as this place has that in itself can make it harder.
The mods need our help, whether duplicate threads or just nuggetry on the board, we need to hit the little yellow triangle.




That will put the issue to rest… Thanks Andy..
Polls do not mandate forum organization, procedure or guidelines.

Right now, it seems that so long as those members remain here who are determined to keep making an issue of this, just so long will the issue not be put to rest.

No but they might help you to understand how people like Chico and I feel at your dictatorial attitude Paul.

Why don’t you answer the question about Chico and his Checks and Balances suggestion?

What happened to SKAWF? Why was he AWOL for two weeks?

I find myself agreeing and disagreeing with posts of yours as is natural, so let me put this to you.
How would the moderation team work if not dictatorial?
By consent of the ones breaking the rules?
By vote and thereby attract more attention to the problem post/s?

To all of us.
Bill appointed people to work here and keep the place free for debate and I believe they do a good job.
Sometimes there are mistakes of too much/not enough moderation but guess what?
None of the staff are perfect anymore than you or me, so we have to expect mistakes, accept the mistakes and forgive.
I haven't seen anything outrageous going on with the staff here and if anyone would, you would think it would be me, as I am not exactly a shrinking violet.
On my point, I challenged bill and the only moderation that took place was the thread was split.
I don't have an issue with that as I derailed a friends thread to start with.
No posts were removed of mine nor did I get infractions or anything.
I hold great respect and affection for the members of our team.
Notice I said OUR team? Not bills team OUR team.






[QUOTE]Right now, it seems that so long as those members remain here who are determined to keep making an issue of this, just so long will the issue not be put to rest.
That’s Balderdash Paul, The problem is you never answer a question. Chico has continually championed the cause of those who were sacked retied or sent to dig the garden.

Paul remember this… many members have contributed with time and money. We don’t know if any have made a financial contribution to Bill It doesn’t matter. What he wants is answers to his questions. Stop sitting on the fence and start seeing sense.

Bottom Line. Its not an issue, but if you ignore members questions it becomes an issue. You create the issues…don’t you see that..

This is just plain rude. Why do you need to make a sneaky insinuation against Paul of wrongdoing and money changing hands? And it if it doesn't matter, why raise it?
This is THE very ad hominem we don't want.
I would have deactivated you for that, so you are lucky there are no Sith Lord mods here.
And that isn't a joke, I mean it.


I can see all sides to this...just want to say the full moon is upon us:yo:

Ross

As someone with majority Irish background, I am of pale skin and can get burnt by a full moon.
Thanks for the warning. :p




Oh yeah, Paul's still the devil incarnate
I've thinking of changing my forum Title from "Administrator" to "Tyrannical Censor" (in jest at this.)

I gave up on Fred259. He is now enjoying a one week vacation for ad hominem attacks.

Try Führer. At least then they can leave to screams of "Jaa, mein Führer!" lol

Then, if there is censorship, you can scream OY VEY GEWALT!! :p
You gotta laugh, I tell ya.
Chico has some valid points, this is true, but Fred undoes himself with his attacks and refusal to accept an apology.



A poll would not put this to rest. Some people enjoy controversy - it is their entertainment.


If you make statements like this Dennis, you should be prepared, as a Moderator, to be questioned as to who in your opinion are these people.

So, who in your opinion are the people who enjoy controversy for their entertainment?

I think your question, although well meant, is not a good one.
If Dennis answered it with names, that would be a contravention of the guidelines and it would be rude of him to do so.
The mods know who they are, they are watching them, that should be enough.



Be the change you wish to see in the world.
We wish you well in your endeavors, Chicodoodoo.

Your Project Avalon account has been deactivated.

As it states in the forum Guidelines:

Anyone who does not appear to be in alignment with the purpose and energy of the forum may be asked to leave.

Even though I know why this happened and can't see what other option there was, it makes me sad.
I like Chiconugget, even though I didn't agree with him on most things.
I think he thought out most things before he posted here and contributed much to us.


Sorry to see you go Chico, be well, take it easy and continue to do what you feel is right.

[Lily de Cuir]

Hello Everyone,

For the record, I can see everyone's POV here, mods included, they have a very hard job. I don't sit in one position, however I must state this:

As a frequent 'thank you button user', I wanted to thank several authors on here, but my finger hovered over the button, thinking of the consequences of doing so.

I think that says something, don't you? I should not have to think twice about thanking someone for their opinion, lest I be branded for doing so.

As I and many have pointed out before, sometimes people thank a post, NOT because we agree, but because they have given us something to think about. The thank you button is about thanking someone for a 'useful comment'. 'Useful' meaning it gave 'meaning' to the reader.

Kind regards,:mmph:
Lily

[Amenjo]

I can't see any reason for changing the way the thankyou button works, if you wish the thankyou to represent more than an agreement of what the person is saying, then you should follow up with a little post to explain what you are agreeing with. In that way it makes everything clear exactly what you are thanking.

Love and Truth

Amenjo

[Martin]

Well, problem "solved" I guess. Sadly none of Chico's valid points were discussed. Maybe a check and balance system of some sort would not be possible here, since I am very certain that it is simply not allowed to be, but that stands for itself and therefor needs no discussion at all.

What I would like to see introduced though is a new section within the forum. A section which would give some sort of documentation of why and how a member got to be classified as "energy-disruptive" and giving also proof of that behavior via quotes etc. This could really provide a little bit more transparency and foremost clarity of if and when a member really has shown his or herself not to be "fitting" for this forum.

Since simply banning everyone speaking against the current modus operandi of the "staff" will most likely not resulst in a positive solution of the problem at hand and please do not say that there isn't a problem. *lalala*


MfG

Martin

[blake]

Hello All,

I was attracted to Avalon because I thought it was a place of seeking the truth openly, not just by sharing our knowledge base, but also our different and sometimes controversial perspectives, in a polite manner of course. If I don't resonate with a thread, or don't like the banter on a thread, or the impolite tone of a poster or a moderator, I simply move on to the next tread, or start my own thread.

For me, there are just too many new threads daily on this wonderful site for me to read even a small percentage of them. So I am curious as to why there are so many comments on this particular thread?
If any member is opposed or bothered by this type of discussion, I am curious as to why are you choosing to spend your limited and valuable time in reading this particular thread?
I would bet my favorite dessert that you could find many more threads to read today and respond to that are more inline with where you are in life, and what you need today.
The best way to show disapproval is how Mr. Ryan appears to do it, he simply seems to igore and does not particpate. By commenting on this thread, each poster is contributing to keeping this subject very much alive. For those of you so opposed to what Chicodoodoo is expressing, why do you particpate in bumping this thread to the top so more can see it by adding additional comments? Why not ignore it and let it just fade a way, along with any other thread you disagree with or are fed up with discussing?

However, I choose to read this thread; and I choose to use my limted and valuable time in reading this thread because I think Chicododoo point goes deeper than is presently being debated. I think it has the potential to help us all understand the small details of human nature and our interactions that makes it so easy for the TPTB to keep rulership over the many. But that is just my opinion.

Again, as I already asked, if any member is opposed or bothered by this type of discussion, why are you choosing to spend your limited and valuable time in reading this particular thread?

Sincerely,

Mr. Davis

[Gaia]

It looks like some have their own ideas about how Avalon should be run. Why do you want to tel how it should be or what is Ok or Not...Isn't that the job of the founder of this site...And some of you still don't get it.

[dan i el]

as far as some of these expulsions go, one either tip toes around nervous power staying mute or otherwise becomes also a momentary martyr for a bit of keyboard tapping trying to defend others daring to be in a bit of anguish. That is a shame, it is just like the normal world, really.

In terms of the spirit of Avalon, I perceive it and am "in line" with it ( for want of a BETTER PHRASE ) and thus do not seek to boat rock. Nevertheless, sometimes, in/at the moment, that boat..rowboat..appears only to have one oar.

When I was a moderator somewhere once I remember quite clearly being uncomfortable with what I saw as the unexpected drunkenness from perceived power in some other moderators I had promoted from the membership.

It is easy to get into a habit of being somewhat trigger happy with the ban button and I sincerely hope I am not chastised for saying that by the mods. It is only a heartfelt observation and well meant advice.

[K626]

Hello All,

I was attracted to Avalon because I thought it was a place of seeking the truth openly, not just by sharing our knowledge base, but also our different and sometimes controversial perspectives, in a polite manner of course. If I don't resonate with a thread, or don't like the banter on a thread, or the impolite tone of a poster or a moderator, I simply move on to the next tread, or start my own thread.

For me, there are just too many new threads daily on this wonderful site for me to read even a small percentage of them. So I am curious as to why there are so many comments on this particular thread?
If any member is opposed or bothered by this type of discussion, I am curious as to why are you choosing to spend your limited and valuable time in reading this particular thread?
I would bet my favorite dessert that you could find many more threads to read today and respond to that are more inline with where you are in life, and what you need today.
The best way to show disapproval is how Mr. Ryan appears to do it, he simply seems to igore and does not particpate. By commenting on this thread, each poster is contributing to keeping this subject very much alive. For those of you so opposed to what Chicodoodoo is expressing, why do you particpate in bumping this thread to the top so more can see it by adding additional comments? Why not ignore it and let it just fade a way, along with any other thread you disagree with or are fed up with discussing?

However, I choose to read this thread; and I choose to use my limted and valuable time in reading this thread because I think Chicododoo point goes deeper than is presently being debated. I think it has the potential to help us all understand the small details of human nature and our interactions that makes it so easy for the TPTB to keep rulership over the many. But that is just my opinion.

Again, as I already asked, if any member is opposed or bothered by this type of discussion, why are you choosing to spend your limited and valuable time in reading this particular thread?

Sincerely,

Mr. Davis

It's human nature, people are attracted by drama and there is a LOT OF IT in the alternative media and chatrooms. Some of it is purposeful distraction and misinformation.

cheers

K

[blake]

Hello All,

So sorry that a man with such logic and understanding of how the world works, and how those same unhealthy patterns can be seen even here on this forum, was banned. In my opinon, people in general could have benefited from his insights and enlarged their undersatnding of the poltics of human nature if the discussion could have evolved into a reflective mode of how each of us plays into the hands of TPTB in our daily relationships and interactions with others. For as what Chicodoodoo referenced, Avaolon is just a micro world of how the world at large acts.

To all, I ask please explain to me what you think the below statement means:

"....the forum Guidelines:

"Anyone who does not appear to be in alignment with the purpose and energy of the forum may be asked to leave."

That is pretty subjective. Guess who else uses subjective guidelines?

Chicodoodoo, your brainpower, your ability to connect dots that others arn't ready to connect is Avalon's lost.

Sincerely,
Mr. Davis

[K626]

Hello All,

So sorry that a man with such logic and understanding of how the world works, and how those same unhealthy patterns can be seen even here on this forum, was banned. In my opinon, people in general could have benefited from his insights and enlarged their undersatnding of the poltics of human nature if the discussion could have evolved into a reflective mode of how each of us plays into the hands of TPTB in our daily relationships and interactions with others. For as what Chicodoodoo referenced, Avaolon is just a micro world of how the world at large acts.

To all, I ask please explain to me what you think the below statement means:

"....the forum Guidelines:

"Anyone who does not appear to be in alignment with the purpose and energy of the forum may be asked to leave."

That is pretty subjective. Guess who else uses subjective guidelines?

Chicodoodoo, your brainpower, your ability to connect dots that others arn't ready to connect is Avalon's lost.

Sincerely,
Mr. Davis

Serious overrating going on here. Are you his spin doctor? :p

iirc and I might be mistaken Chico was given a pretty long line by the mods and that went on for at least 2 weeks and then he comes back on the very same tack. He might have been intelligent but I think he had a serious lack of common sense, decorum and respect for other members. Read into that what you may.

K

[dan i el]

Hello All,

So sorry that a man with such logic and understanding of how the world works, and how those same unhealthy patterns can be seen even here on this forum, was banned. In my opinon, people in general could have benefited from his insights and enlarged their undersatnding of the poltics of human nature if the discussion could have evolved into a reflective mode of how each of us plays into the hands of TPTB in our daily relationships and interactions with others. For as what Chicodoodoo referenced, Avaolon is just a micro world of how the world at large acts.

To all, I ask please explain to me what you think the below statement means:

"....the forum Guidelines:

"Anyone who does not appear to be in alignment with the purpose and energy of the forum may be asked to leave."

That is pretty subjective. Guess who else uses subjective guidelines?

Chicodoodoo, your brainpower, your ability to connect dots that others arn't ready to connect is Avalon's lost.

Sincerely,
Mr. Davis

Yes, I will stand with that. Chicodoodoo's primary strength was in constructive dissent angled from an egalitarian perspective. It is a shame that he was maligned as simply a redundant troublemaker to the spirit of the community.

[K626]

Hello All,

So sorry that a man with such logic and understanding of how the world works, and how those same unhealthy patterns can be seen even here on this forum, was banned. In my opinon, people in general could have benefited from his insights and enlarged their undersatnding of the poltics of human nature if the discussion could have evolved into a reflective mode of how each of us plays into the hands of TPTB in our daily relationships and interactions with others. For as what Chicodoodoo referenced, Avaolon is just a micro world of how the world at large acts.

To all, I ask please explain to me what you think the below statement means:

"....the forum Guidelines:

"Anyone who does not appear to be in alignment with the purpose and energy of the forum may be asked to leave."

That is pretty subjective. Guess who else uses subjective guidelines?

Chicodoodoo, your brainpower, your ability to connect dots that others arn't ready to connect is Avalon's lost.

Sincerely,
Mr. Davis

Yes, I will stand with that. Chicodoodoo's primary strength was in constructive dissent angled from an egalitarian perspective. It is a shame that he was maligned as simply a redundant troublemaker to the spirit of the community.

Well that's what happens when you lack balance.

In good spirit I'll stop there as he can't defend himself.

But I'm getting heartily sick of a some of the people who joined in Jan 2011 and then starting thinking they knew it all about this forum and started to call ths shots and continued to on it seems to me a one track war of attrition against the board.

YES I miss some of the people who have gone (not all) and yes there always has to be a re-energising of the agenda and terms of engagement on here...But it really is getting to the point that threads like this are just becoming a self-depretiating cycle of negativity.

K

[dan i el]

Hello All,

So sorry that a man with such logic and understanding of how the world works, and how those same unhealthy patterns can be seen even here on this forum, was banned. In my opinon, people in general could have benefited from his insights and enlarged their undersatnding of the poltics of human nature if the discussion could have evolved into a reflective mode of how each of us plays into the hands of TPTB in our daily relationships and interactions with others. For as what Chicodoodoo referenced, Avaolon is just a micro world of how the world at large acts.

To all, I ask please explain to me what you think the below statement means:

"....the forum Guidelines:

"Anyone who does not appear to be in alignment with the purpose and energy of the forum may be asked to leave."

That is pretty subjective. Guess who else uses subjective guidelines?

Chicodoodoo, your brainpower, your ability to connect dots that others arn't ready to connect is Avalon's lost.

Sincerely,
Mr. Davis

Serious overrating going on here. Are you his spin doctor? :p

iirc and I might be mistaken Chico was given a pretty long line by the mods and that went on for at least 2 weeks and then he comes back on the very same tack. He might have been intelligent but I think he had a serious lack of common sense, decorum and respect for other members. Read into that what you may.

K

Mediation would surely have been the preferable route. He isn't exactly radioactive...ah, from Colorado - hmm, perhaps, then :/

[K626]

Hello All,

So sorry that a man with such logic and understanding of how the world works, and how those same unhealthy patterns can be seen even here on this forum, was banned. In my opinon, people in general could have benefited from his insights and enlarged their undersatnding of the poltics of human nature if the discussion could have evolved into a reflective mode of how each of us plays into the hands of TPTB in our daily relationships and interactions with others. For as what Chicodoodoo referenced, Avaolon is just a micro world of how the world at large acts.

To all, I ask please explain to me what you think the below statement means:

"....the forum Guidelines:

"Anyone who does not appear to be in alignment with the purpose and energy of the forum may be asked to leave."

That is pretty subjective. Guess who else uses subjective guidelines?

Chicodoodoo, your brainpower, your ability to connect dots that others arn't ready to connect is Avalon's lost.

Sincerely,
Mr. Davis

Serious overrating going on here. Are you his spin doctor? :p

iirc and I might be mistaken Chico was given a pretty long line by the mods and that went on for at least 2 weeks and then he comes back on the very same tack. He might have been intelligent but I think he had a serious lack of common sense, decorum and respect for other members. Read into that what you may.

K

Mediation would surely have been the preferable route. He isn't exactly radioactive...ah, from Colorado - hmm, perhaps, then :/

I always liked him. But he was in charge of his own destiny. What can I say?

K

[Lord Sidious]

Hello All,

So sorry that a man with such logic and understanding of how the world works, and how those same unhealthy patterns can be seen even here on this forum, was banned. In my opinon, people in general could have benefited from his insights and enlarged their undersatnding of the poltics of human nature if the discussion could have evolved into a reflective mode of how each of us plays into the hands of TPTB in our daily relationships and interactions with others. For as what Chicodoodoo referenced, Avaolon is just a micro world of how the world at large acts.

To all, I ask please explain to me what you think the below statement means:

"....the forum Guidelines:

"Anyone who does not appear to be in alignment with the purpose and energy of the forum may be asked to leave."

That is pretty subjective. Guess who else uses subjective guidelines?

Chicodoodoo, your brainpower, your ability to connect dots that others arn't ready to connect is Avalon's lost.

Sincerely,
Mr. Davis

Serious overrating going on here. Are you his spin doctor? :p

iirc and I might be mistaken Chico was given a pretty long line by the mods and that went on for at least 2 weeks and then he comes back on the very same tack. He might have been intelligent but I think he had a serious lack of common sense, decorum and respect for other members. Read into that what you may.

K

Mediation would surely have been the preferable route. He isn't exactly radioactive...ah, from Colorado - hmm, perhaps, then :/

I always liked him. But he was in charge of his own destiny. What can I say?

K

As are we all nugget, as are we all.
Chiconugget was like the rest of us, he has his flaws too, but I think he is a good guy.

[qbeac]

Note: I am also posting this post in the Project Camelot forum, at link:

Post #43407, pag. 129
http://camelotforum.com/index.php?option=com_kunena&func=view&catid=37&id=20465&limit=10&limitstart=1280&Itemid=164#43407

Hello everyone,

Last night I came to the Avalon forum to check and see what was going on over here, and I happened to see this thread titled: “Censorship here?”

I read the first post by Chicodoodoo (Post #1, pag1), I thought he raised some very good points (especially the suggestion of having some sort of “checks and balances system” in the forum, with the moderating job, etc.), and I posted 3 posts in pages 1 and 3:

Post #14 (pag1), Post #44 (pag3), Post #52 (pag3)
http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?20545-Censorship-here&p=218969&viewfull=1#post218969
http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?20545-Censorship-here&p=219026&viewfull=1#post219026

In those posts I basically say that I think Chicodoodoo’s suggestions are very good ones, and I talked about concepts such as “checks and balances”, separation of powers, freedom of speech, etc., which are all very healthy concepts in a free and open society.

However, today (Sunday morning, May-15-11) I come to the forum again and I see, to my great surprise, that Chicodoodoo has been banned (or deactivated? I don’t know if there is any difference?) by Paul in Post #99 (pag5) for what he said in Post #98, here:

Pag5. Post #98 by Chicodoodoo and Post #99 by Paul
http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?20545-Censorship-here&p=219134&viewfull=1#post219134

For all of you who don’t know what has happened, I encourage you to read those few pages of this thread (just 5 pages). Those are not many posts and you’ll be able to judge for yourself what has happened.

Well, in my opinion, I don’t see there is a good or reasonable reason to ban (or deactivate) Chicodoodoo. But before I explain why I think so, I’d like to say something about myself:

If you do a google search with some of the following terms and my nick (qbeac):

www.google.com

qbeac “project camelot”
qbeac “proyecto camelot”
qbeac “misión anglosajona”

… you’ll be able to realize that from the beginning, during the past few years (3 or 4), I have been a big follower and supporter of both Project Camelot and Project Avalon, and of both Bill Ryan and Kerry Cassidy. I have spread the word of PC-PA in as many Internet forums as I have been able to, especially in Spanish forums, and I have also translated (for free) a lot of Project Camelot material (texts, videos) from English to Spanish, which, btw, is a lot of work, very time consuming.

I have also told everybody in real life about PC-PA and Bill and Kerry and the whistleblowers videos: my family, friends, neighbours, etc.

But the reason why I have willingly, and happily, and enthusiastically spread the word of PC-PA, Bill and Kerry, is very clear:

Because after watching most of the PC-PA whistleblowers videos and material, I really believed PC-PA represented “the spirit of freedom and truth seeking ideals, values and principles” that I am all in favour of, and which is exactly the opposite of “the spirit of control, deception, intolerance, and censorship” of the society the elite (illuminati & Co.) have constructed to enslave us.

Otherwise, I would not have supported nor spread the word of PC-PA.

That being said, I’d like to give my personal opinion of the current incident: the banning (or deactivating) of Chicodoodoo:

This banning incident has reminded me of the famous JF Kennedy speech titled “The President and the Press” in which JFK says the following things about the concepts of freedom of speech, criticism of power, tolerance of that criticism by MSM and by the President, abuses of power and of the national security act to censor information and stifle dissent, etc.:

(Note: emphasis added in some important sentences)

JFK speech: "The President and the Press," before the American Newspaper Publishers Association, 27 April 1961
http://www.jfklibrary.org/Asset-Viewer/Archives/JFKWHA-025-001.aspx



Brief excerpts:

The very word "secrecy" is repugnant in a free and open society; and we are as a people inherently and historically opposed to secret societies, to secret oaths and to secret proceedings. We decided long ago that the dangers of excessive and unwarranted concealment of pertinent facts far outweighed the dangers which are cited to justify it. (…)

… And there is very grave danger that an announced need for increased security will be seized upon by those anxious to expand its meaning to the very limits of official censorship and concealment. That I do not intend to permit to the extent that it’s in my control.

And no official of my Administration, whether his rank is high or low, civilian or military, should interpret my words here tonight as an excuse to censor the news, to stifle dissent, to cover up our mistakes or to withhold from the press and the public the facts they deserve to know. (…)

Without debate, without criticism, no Administration and no country can succeed and no republic can survive.

That is why the Athenian lawmaker Solon decreed it a crime for any citizen to shrink from controversy.

And that is why our press was protected by the First Amendment-- the only business in America specifically protected by the Constitution--not primarily to amuse and entertain, not to emphasize the trivial and the sentimental, not to simply "give the public what it wants"--but to inform, to arouse, to reflect, to state our dangers and our opportunities, to indicate our crises and our choices, to lead, mold, educate and sometimes even anger public opinion. (…)

I not only could not stifle controversy among your readers -- I welcome it.

This Administration intends to be candid about its errors; for as a wise man once said: "An error does not become a mistake until you refuse to correct it."

We intend to accept full responsibility for our errors and we expect you to point them out when we miss them.

---------------------------------

I find great parallels between what JFK says in his speech and this current banning incident at Avalon.

In that regards, Chicodoodoo was, with respect, pointing out possible errors (according to his own point of view and based on our freedom of speech), and he was suggesting possible solutions (the “checks and balances” system).

But, according to the concepts JFK explains in his speech regarding the dangers of abusing the power of “national security secrecy laws” in order to “censor the news, to stifle dissent”, etc., some decisions by Internet moderators to ban (deactivate) members could sometimes be interpreted in a similar way as in JFK’s speech, that is, as an excuse to stifle dissent or an abuse of the moderating power.

I also encourage anybody who may be interested in this subject, to open a Poll to find out how many Avalon members would be in favour of including a “checks and balances system” in the Avalon forum. A Poll is the only way to know it for sure and without recurring to speculations.

I am also thinking that, in this case, perhaps what has happened is that Paul may feel tired of doing the moderating job, because it is a hard job to do, and that could have caused for him to lower his level of tolerance, which is understandable. I don’t know if that’s the case, but it looks like it, or maybe there are other reasons…???

If that was the case (and I don’t know if it is or not), maybe Paul would simply need to rest for a while and leave his place (temporarily) to a fresh moderator. But only Paul could clarify what has happened.

In any case, my personal opinion is that, unless Paul gives a VERY GOOD explanation of his decision of banning (deactivating) Chicodoodo (and the one Paul gave in Post #99 is not a good one, in my opinion), his decision has been, imho, unnecessary, unfortunate, and it could even be argued that it could be unjust or even an abuse of the moderating power.

Therefore, I ask Bill Ryan the following two things:



1) Please, Bill, take a close look at these 5 pages, and please give us a very good explanation of why Chicodoodoo has been banned by Paul.

2) Please, Bill, if you think this ban was unnecessary or unjust, I ask you (Bill and Paul) to please apologize to Chicodoodoo and reinstate his membership.

If Bill Ryan (as the founder of this forum) does not give all of us a very good explanation of this incident (the banning of Chicodoodoo by Paul), or if he ignores it, I sadly need to say that, after all these years, I must withdraw my support from Bill Ryan and Paul.

That is not to say that I would withdraw my support from the whole PC-PA material, because there are many valuable things and people here, but the concepts about the spirit of freedom and truth seeking values and ideals I have tried to explain in this post with the JFK speech example are way too important and valuable to remain silent about them.

And as Martin Luther King once said:



"A time comes when silence is betrayal”

(MLK)

[blake]

Hello All,

I have read more than once on this forum, and have even been "accused of it by an Avalon moderator", that for some people controversy is their entertainment. And from a psychological perspective, that may have some merit mostly for people of an unbalanced nature. However, I am at a lost as how one can seek the truth, point out injustice, and wrong doings without kicking up controversy? Remember the McCarthy era?

When controversy happens, and there are people who unnecessarily inflame the issue, instead of having an intellectual and expansive discussion on it, or who are choosing instead not to participate in it, that is a method of people control. It is how the world works. You all know about professional provocateurs. Shall we say the Middle East, perhaps?

If Avalon was walking in light and love, for those who did not like the Cichodoodoo’s discussion, they would have let him speak his peace, by not participating in his thread. Instead they would choose to read a different thread, unless they truly thought him to be a terrorist or a political provocateur. I wished his thread had been kept clean of those who were opposed to the discussion so that those of us who saw the value of it could have elevated the discussion to an intellectual exercise of importance. Instead it was debased into an emotional quagmire by those who were complaining of its existence.

Until we learn to be more self reflective about our own actions and words, ego will always win, and humanity will always be banning talented thinkers such as Chicodoodoo.

In the end it is always the talented thinkers who advanced human society, usually after being imprisoned, persecuted or killed. I wonder what Avalon would have banned Thomas Jefferson for? The important thing to remember, in my opinion, is the dynamics that is happening in our tiny forum are the same dyamics happening in the world. So how are we going to bring about this model community that Mr. Ryan speaks of?

Sincerely,
Mr. Davis

[dan i el]

Hello All,

I have read more than once on this forum, and have even been "accused of it by an Avalon moderator", that for some people controversy is their entertainment. And from a psychological perspective, that may have some merit mostly for people of an unbalanced nature. However, I am at a lost as how one can seek the truth, point out injustice, and wrong doings without kicking up controversy? Remember the McCarthy era?

When controversy happens, and there are people who unnecessarily inflame the issue, instead of having an intellectual and expansive discussion on it, or who are choosing instead not to participate in it, that is a method of people control. It is how the world works. You all know about professional provocateurs. Shall we say the Middle East, perhaps?

If Avalon was walking in light and love, for those who did not like the Cichodoodoo’s discussion, they would have let him speak his peace, by not participating in his thread. Instead they would choose to read a different thread, unless they truly thought him to be a terrorist or a political provocateur. I wished his thread had been kept clean of those who were opposed to the discussion so that those of us who saw the value of it could have elevated the discussion to an intellectual exercise of importance. Instead it was debased into an emotional quagmire by those who were complaining of its existence.

Until we learn to be more self reflective about our own actions and words, ego will always win, and humanity will always be banning talented thinkers such as Chicodoodoo.

In the end it is always the talented thinkers who advanced human society, usually after being imprisoned, persecuted or killed. I wonder what Avalon would have banned Thomas Jefferson for? The important thing to remember, in my opinion, is the dynamics that is happening in our tiny forum are the same dyamics happening in the world. So how are we going to bring about this model community that Mr. Ryan speaks of?

Sincerely,
Mr. Davis

Indeed, there was been some unnecessary violence of late here from our guardians.

Without wishing to tread on eggshells or run the mill, what actually then constitutes the spirit of Avalon, if it, as apparent, more and more quoted as a reasoning given behind sometimes seemingly arbitrary executive action..? Is it organic and community based or rather pertaining more to a singular vision enforced, if not, subjectively codified by benevolent enforcers?

Is the spirit of Avalon not within the very community? is the community not as important as the whistelblowers themselves? Where is the spirit residing actually? Constant purging can only lead to a stifling atmosphere that supports only a very specific demographic to what otherwise would be vibrancy? Forgive me, please, if I am being naive in this.

I am aware I only started to make posts from Jan 2011 and am not at all intending to be seen as wielding the big wooden spoon.

[buckminster fuller]

wouldn't it be wonderful to have a forward thinking circular system that took all the responsibility from the poor Mods and shared it as equally as possible among all members?

No. Bolshevism stinks, and this thread is crawling with it.

Okay.... "Bolshevism"? That's one heavy term... Maybe you're right, we definitely need more control and hierarchies here, let's all wear black boots and forget about how the world is organized today. No need for change, unity and human development. Slaves we are, slaves we should remain.
It is so tiring to see that concepts and ideas get mismatched with the wrong picture that historically, those have been allowed to flourish with no outside control. Throwing he baby with the baby's bath is a really common mistake, and one that is pretty much aligned with what the ptb want us to do.

I wish we can all break free from this propaganda of fear.

Peace

[Billy]

Avalon, we have a problem.

Essentially, it is this: .

I have just began reading this thread and my first reaction to Chicodoodoo's post was this.
Should the above not read.

"Avalon, Chicodoodoo has a problem with you.
Essenially it is this, Chicodoodoo would like to change Avalon."

You say for the best interests of Avalon ahead of their own private interests Chico, yet what i see is you expressing only your own private interest here. Think about that. Is it Avalon's problem that the way it works does not resonate with you, or is that your own personal problem.

I hope you can work it out, all the best and bless you.

EDIT: I have just reached page 5 only to see that Chico's account has been deactivated, So i repeat my last sentence.

All the best Chico and Bless you.

[Lord Sidious]

Part of the problem is this little paradigm
There are two types of individual
a) who is reasonable and tries to fit in with all around him and not rock the boat and
b) who is unreasonable and tries to change things around him that differ from his beliefs.
You know what the problem is?
ALL advancements in history came from b) not a) and that is where we have issues on approaches.
People who don't take what is given as truth but search for their own then report back are usually not welcomed so much in society.
You avalonuggets all know that I am b) and there are others here like that too, including this guy
http://projectavalon.net/forum4/member.php?6-Bill-Ryan

[ulli]

When I came here Chicodoodoo had a thread about sociopaths...
right away I was noticing the direction that discussion was taking, i.e. not solving anything,
but rather creating more questions than answers.

I was using this signature then: "where the focus goes, energy flows"

something I firmly believe in- not just because I read it somewhere, but because I have found it to be true.

Taking down the NWO by identifying the sociopaths among the leadership can't really lead anywhere.

How would one know who exactly is the sociopath and who is not, and moreover, where do you draw the line between those who are and those who are not?
You would end up with a Nazi type of system...like racism.

Then he was trying to build a community of absolute equality for all members
this reminded me of Soviet communism's 72 year`road to nowhere...

History has shown all the possible pitfalls of non workinbg systems
and the only thing that works is a combo of all
where even a monarchy has it's place as some might want the ceremonial type of leadership

So here is Avalon:
members post and moderators who are also members in good standing keep an eye on the general tone and level of discussion
then, when a moderator is way out of line the other moderators as well as some of the members and finally Bill would step in and make suggestions, if that doesn't work, there are the reminders, like turning down the volume, and finally the off button.
The choice is with the disturber, to discover that his droning is not becoming his real potential which is to make music rather than drone on and on.


Someone like that is either damaged by childhood experiences or mind controlled by outside interference.

I would love to hear what Omniverse or OnyxKnight think of this, although I would never DEMAND that they respond to my request.

Hear me, guys?

You are free to NOT respond.

I will not hold it against you, nor would I call on the moderators to get you to reply.

It's all a matter of respect for another's right to sovereignty and Bill who I think was the real target in all of this has such a right, too.

[truthseekerdan]

Chicodoodoo, your brainpower, your ability to connect dots that others arn't ready to connect is Avalon's lost.

Sincerely,
Mr. Davis

Consciousness is more than information and the brain -- people who use only their brain to decode this reality, are usually those that have issues with an "inflated ego". Consciousness is a form of energy essential to all existence. It is a nonphysical energy of infinite magnitude and it is unique in its capacity to change one pattern of existence into another pattern of existence.

Change the things you are able to, accept the things you cannot, and have the sense to know the difference. Our brain is set up to deliver the visual presentation of the world we are experiencing right now. We have the power to alter this visual presentation of the world we receive from our brain anytime we decide to make an adjustment in our daily physical or mental routines. Some people choose to do this by simply being more open-minded from their hearts.

Much Love and understanding

[davyj0nes]

To all, I ask please explain to me what you think the below statement means:

"....the forum Guidelines:

"Anyone who does not appear to be in alignment with the purpose and energy of the forum may be asked to leave."

When i post on avalon i have no reason to worry whether my post will 'censored', because the mods could care less about my thoughts on the face of mars, david icke, (insert your bag here), ect.

The only ones who have to worry are those with an axe to grind, and they make themselves known by the content of their threads and posts. Those loyal to the prior administration have 2, maybe 3 tactics they keep using repeatedly, censorship being one. They put a big neon 'i'm here to stir the poo pot' sign on when they do that. Which undoubtedly brings the mods running like 'beggin strips'.

So, to the 98% wondering what on earth these people are going on about censorship. Worry not, your posts are not going to get 'censored'.

To the remaining 2% with an axe to grind, yes you will continue to be 'censored'. Each time you seek to get at bill by attacking attacking avalon, you establish a pattern of abuse. Being asked to leave, is the just, and natural end to your actions.

In the end, this internet drama is source of sustenance to a very small cabal.

[indiana]

But I'm getting heartily sick of a some of the people who joined in Jan 2011 and then starting thinking they knew it all about this forum and started to call ths shots and continued to on it seems to me a one track war of attrition against the board.

Yep, and I'm get heartily sick of that sort of attitude.
Oops, maybe I shouldn't say that being a member who joined in Jan 2011.

Out of curiosity, perhaps you can help me, at what stage can I consider myself
suitably knowledgeable about this forum that I feel I can relax 'within' this forum?

[K626]

But I'm getting heartily sick of a some of the people who joined in Jan 2011 and then starting thinking they knew it all about this forum and started to call ths shots and continued to on it seems to me a one track war of attrition against the board.

Yep, and I'm get heartily sick of that sort of attitude.
Oops, maybe I shouldn't say that being a member who joined in Jan 2011.

Out of curiosity, perhaps you can help me, at what stage can I consider myself
suitably knowledgeable about this forum that I feel I can relax 'within' this forum?

The key word is SOME.

If YOU WANT to call me out let's take it TO PM.

K

[Lord Sidious]

But I'm getting heartily sick of a some of the people who joined in Jan 2011 and then starting thinking they knew it all about this forum and started to call ths shots and continued to on it seems to me a one track war of attrition against the board.

Yep, and I'm get heartily sick of that sort of attitude.
Oops, maybe I shouldn't say that being a member who joined in Jan 2011.

Out of curiosity, perhaps you can help me, at what stage can I consider myself
suitably knowledgeable about this forum that I feel I can relax 'within' this forum?

What are you on about ya fenianugget?
Relax? The Irish NEVER relax, unless they are asleep, you know that. :p




But I'm getting heartily sick of a some of the people who joined in Jan 2011 and then starting thinking they knew it all about this forum and started to call ths shots and continued to on it seems to me a one track war of attrition against the board.

Yep, and I'm get heartily sick of that sort of attitude.
Oops, maybe I shouldn't say that being a member who joined in Jan 2011.

Out of curiosity, perhaps you can help me, at what stage can I consider myself
suitably knowledgeable about this forum that I feel I can relax 'within' this forum?

The key word is SOME.

If YOU WANT to call me out let's take it TO PM.

K

Blimey not you too?
Hold on, my carrot delivery service is on the phone, I will order some extras.
Back soon.

[sunnyrap]

A key idea I learned years ago when engaged in a course on interpersonal communications and group facilitation was that simple, truth-filled delivering of one's personal perspective typically does not create a powerfully negative response. When there is intent to negate another point of view, there will be a powerful backlash.

HOWEVER, one cannot make a rule of this because sometimes one's perspective 'upsets the applecart' of a broadly held view and can or will be perceived as personal negation. That is when the greatest care in delivery of the communication is necessary--and the greatest care in inspecting the communication for the content that upsets one's world view.

[blake]

But I'm getting heartily sick of a some of the people who joined in Jan 2011 and then starting thinking they knew it all about this forum and started to call ths shots and continued to on it seems to me a one track war of attrition against the board.

Yep, and I'm get heartily sick of that sort of attitude.
Oops, maybe I shouldn't say that being a member who joined in Jan 2011.

Out of curiosity, perhaps you can help me, at what stage can I consider myself
suitably knowledgeable about this forum that I feel I can relax 'within' this forum?

The key word is SOME.

If YOU WANT to call me out let's take it TO PM.

K


Hello All,

I think it was Ross who reminded us that a full moon is approaching. Best to table, or put off all active and emotional discussions until well into the fourth quarter. It could avoid a lot of metaphorical "bloody noses"!

Sincerely,

Mr. Davis

[K626]

But I'm getting heartily sick of a some of the people who joined in Jan 2011 and then starting thinking they knew it all about this forum and started to call ths shots and continued to on it seems to me a one track war of attrition against the board.

Yep, and I'm get heartily sick of that sort of attitude.
Oops, maybe I shouldn't say that being a member who joined in Jan 2011.

Out of curiosity, perhaps you can help me, at what stage can I consider myself
suitably knowledgeable about this forum that I feel I can relax 'within' this forum?

The key word is SOME.

If YOU WANT to call me out let's take it TO PM.

K


Hello All,

I think it was Ross who reminded us that a full moon is approaching. Best to table, or put off all active and emotional discussions until well into the fourth quarter. It could avoid a lot of metaphorical "bloody noses"!

Sincerely,

Mr. Davis

My discussions are always amiable you should know that. :p

K

[blake]

Hello All,

I think it was Ross who reminded us that a full moon is approaching. Best to table, or put off all active and emotional discussions until well into the fourth quarter. It could avoid a lot of metaphorical "bloody noses"!

Sincerely,

Mr. Davis

My discussions are always amiable you should know that. :p

K

Hello K626,

I know. I was just checking in. The atmosphere seems to be electified with oncoming full moon energy. :)

Sincerely,
Mr. Davis

[sunnyrap]

A corollary to this is that all groups should VALUE members who hold positions of HONEST dissent, because they are the ones who create opportunities for real problem solving. A member holding a point of view that seems contrary to most of the group is often a maverick type who has pioneered into areas of thinking and action more sanguine members would and have not. These mavericks of thought can yield real gold for the rest of the group and should not be shunned, imo.

Now, this is different from someone who, like a bratty child, has learned that being disruptive gets a lot of attention, even if its negative--but failing to learn how to get positive attention, is addicted to this activity. One of those tiresome situations where discernment and careful thought is called for...

[K626]

A corollary to this is that all groups should VALUE members who hold positions of HONEST dissent, because they are the ones who create opportunities for real problem solving. A member holding a point of view that seems contrary to most of the group is often a maverick type who has pioneered into areas of thinking and action more sanguine members would and have not. These mavericks of thought can yield real gold for the rest of the group and should not be shunned, imo.

Now, this is different from someone who, like a bratty child, has learned that being disruptive gets a lot of attention, even if its negative--but failing to learn how to get positive attention, is addicted to this activity. One of those tiresome situations where discernment and careful thought is called for...

Totally agree.

The pay must be good cause some seem to be making it their lifes work. :couch2:

K

[Lord Sidious]

A corollary to this is that all groups should VALUE members who hold positions of HONEST dissent, because they are the ones who create opportunities for real problem solving. A member holding a point of view that seems contrary to most of the group is often a maverick type who has pioneered into areas of thinking and action more sanguine members would and have not. These mavericks of thought can yield real gold for the rest of the group and should not be shunned, imo.

Now, this is different from someone who, like a bratty child, has learned that being disruptive gets a lot of attention, even if its negative--but failing to learn how to get positive attention, is addicted to this activity. One of those tiresome situations where discernment and careful thought is called for...

Thanks for your posts on this thread, the insight in them is very useful for everyone to see the background thinking of some of us.
They are worth more than a quick press of the thanks button.

[ThePythonicCow]

Yep, and I'm get heartily sick of that sort of attitude.
Oops, maybe I shouldn't say that being a member who joined in Jan 2011.

Out of curiosity, perhaps you can help me, at what stage can I consider myself
suitably knowledgeable about this forum that I feel I can relax 'within' this forum?

Beats me --- guess that's partly up to you. Notice my join date ;).

¤=[Post Update]=¤


But I'm getting heartily sick of a some of the people who joined in Jan 2011 and then starting thinking they knew it all about this forum and started to call the shots Hopefully it's not just a matter of date joined ;).

[K626]

But I'm getting heartily sick of a some of the people who joined in Jan 2011 and then starting thinking they knew it all about this forum and started to call the shots Hopefully it's not just a matter of date joined ;).

Quite. ;)

Peace

k

[Limor Wolf]

~*&^~*&^~*&^~*&^~*&^~*&^~*&^~*&^~*&^~*&^~*&^~*&^~*&^~
I believe that the aim of moderating,is to serve the community and not the other way around. we have a virtual commune of like minded people here with a shared purpose and it desreves all we can do to keep it like that.we are mostly centered around Camelot/Avalon/Bill ryan's work (wich I wholeheartedly believe in and support) also we are gathered around the world situation and happenings as they transpire infront of our eyes,knowing full well that it was our own creation that brought us and the earth to this place,and now we want to change it.we are the pioneers of change.and on the way we are checking all sorts of ways to start anew.while doing that,old habbits might kick in...

I believe ALL of us members at forum Avalon,at Nexus2012 (boy,you guys have limited yourselfs :) The Camelot forum,Open minds,David icke's,etc etc,all have the best intentions at our hearts. ALL of us without exception (paid agents not included). to put it simply (very simply) we want a better world,we think we desreve a better world,we demand a better world its just that we are limping a bit when trying to implement it.lets excuse ourselfs and see how we can try and improve things from now on.

I believe in adressing things and issues,knowing full well that its not always gonn'a get the solutions in place right away.


qbeac originally posted: "If a moderator makes a decision (Ex: banning someone), let’s the rest of us vote (with a special button to do so) to say if we agree or disagree with it."

This will be new at the world of forums:) not very realistic I am afraid. there has to be a severe enough reason to bann a member but it is impossible to consulte the opinions of almost 3000 members (god Bless,may they come more),remember,this is not about expressing an oppsite oppinion,its either expressing it in a hostile way,giving false information about someone (smearing),raising conflicts for the sake of having a conflict or simply supporting all those.not possible to include all reasons and from my tiny experience so far,not all comunication from banned members are shown upfront. a little trust in the moderation team discretion is needed.


Aurelius has originally posted:(and changed the title of the post! (o.k, I couldn't resist this remark:)
"we need to keep challenging ourselves to improve and do things in better ways."

That might be very true

As Seikou-Kishi has said,'ad hominem' attacks are something that we all agree upon.this is also an easy part to locate,but another consideration for us members to think about is that some things are happening and are not known to to us as a community,and its o.k,not everything should be known.it is clear for everyone with eyes in their heads that a person who deals with sensitive information (whistleblowing,spirituall truths that can advance us forword,etc.) will not get a Large bouquet of flowers everyday right at his door step! guess what he gets..I beg us all to understand that having a peaceful,highly educational and friendly platform from wich all of us as well as Bill can Operate is highly important,therefore the efforts of the mods team is exactly that.

Can it be done in a different way? it is something to think about.member's opinions does not enter in one ear and go out through the other... but again,there are other considerations that are not always known.If you still dont understand please go back to read a few lines above,I hope it will be a little more clear.

Volunteers are doing this work to keep the forum a safe environment,if its not always going smoothly,please forgive us.there are some decisions that need to be taken without the consent of everyone,some other things/general suggestions and consideration quite the opposite,and it might be good to share between us all and have a more transperent and holographic nature of moderating.one more thing to keep in mind is :we are all people,individualls (with burning desires :) and we wish to try and create something different.anyone who will try to put a stick between the wheels of this beautiful speeding train will not find tolerence towords their words and actions.

Healing and blessings to us all!

Limor (mod hat on/off red,green and with a feather...as you wish)
~*&^~*&^~*&^~*&^~*&^~*&^~*&^~*&^~*&^~*&^~*&^~*&^

[Lord Sidious]

On the subject of doing things differently, let me show you the risks. One of my favourites from my childhood.
Which was yesterday, I think. :p

The other one I added, I would like you guys to listen to the words.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZL2WeRHqqXo


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-FAKN7ufwPQ

Yet another edit.
After you listen to the second one, consider this, we are what we are, black sheep.
We are tall, short, skinny, fat, but we are all truthseekers and we should try to achieve our mission: seek the truth, put it out there, attain wisdom.
Welcome to Black Sheep Squadron nuggets.

[sunnyrap]

I briefly considered asking about using the polls for voting on whether or not to allow certain members to remain (ala 'Survivors' alleged reality show), but then thought this might create a very sense of all of us always being on parole. But this would take some of the heat off of the mods. What do the rest of you think about this idea?

[indiana]

After my post I went for a smoke, came back in and went to delete my post,
only to see that it had been responded to, so it was too late.

Clearly join dates doesn't necessarily mean that a member has not been part of the history
or pre-history of Avalon, tho Paul I take your point.

Anyway, fellow Nuggeteers,
Hope the full-moon beams treat you well.

[Billy]

Part of the problem is this little paradigm
There are two types of individual
a) who is reasonable and tries to fit in with all around him and not rock the boat and
b) who is unreasonable and tries to change things around him that differ from his beliefs.
You know what the problem is?
ALL advancements in history came from b) not a) and that is where we have issues on approaches.
People who don't take what is given as truth but search for their own then report back are usually not welcomed so much in society.
You avalonuggets all know that I am b) and there are others here like that too, including this guy
http://projectavalon.net/forum4/member.php?6-Bill-Ryan

Hi Sidious, I think there are thousands of types of individuals not just two,

1,Why rock a boat when it sails smoothly, and when the waters become stormy then we all pull together to ride the storm.
2, One can be the change they want to see without being unreasonable.

I am a member of other Forums, One of which i am a moderator and mentor does not allow any new threads whatsoever although it can be done, but new threads can be created by going through the recommened protocol in the ideas and suggestion thread, I understand this and respect this understanding. some new members joining this Forum of 5000 members now, at first just cannot get to grips with this policy,
They want their voice to be heard ( which they can on existing threads, Radio shows and skype chatrooms etc ) But still a few just dont get it and find themselves being evicted from the forum.

It really is about respect for whichever forum you choose to join or boat you choose to sail on, and if one chooses to be unreasonable and rebel and rock a boat that sails smoothly, then i hope they can swim. then they can be captain and sail their own boat create their own personal protocols.

Diversity and individualism does not need to be in conflict, we can have many boats at sea at the same time, sailing in different directions passing each other with a wave and ahoy there, :fish2::peace::grouphug:

[Lord Sidious]

I briefly considered asking about using the polls for voting on whether or not to allow certain members to remain (ala 'Survivors' alleged reality show), but then thought this might create a very sense of all of us always being on parole. But this would take some of the heat off of the mods. What do the rest of you think about this idea?

This one I think is open to abuse.
On some forums, they allow negative rep as well as positive and it isn't hard to negative bomb someone by getting others to do it too.
Then you destroy their credibility, in a way.

[ThePythonicCow]

Now, this is different from someone who, like a bratty child, has learned that being disruptive gets a lot of attention, even if its negative--but failing to learn how to get positive attention, is addicted to this activity. One of those tiresome situations where discernment and careful thought is called for...


I briefly considered asking about using the polls for voting on whether or not to allow certain members to remain (ala 'Survivors' alleged reality show), but then thought this might create a very sense of all of us always being on parole. But this would take some of the heat off of the mods. What do the rest of you think about this idea?

To be honest, my initial reaction to "voting on whether ... certain members remain" was "what a friggin mess that would be."

Then I went looking for the good member I recalled earlier in the thread had mentioned that some people have learned that being disruptive gets attention. A voting scheme would just up the anty for how much attention could be garnered, and increase the damage such drama causes to the forum. Hmm ... turns out you might know the member who mentioned something like that ... someone named "sunnyrap" :).

[ThePythonicCow]

Hope the full-moon beams treat you well.
Thanks. I hope you enjoyed your smoke.

[buckminster fuller]

Note: I am also posting this post in the Project Camelot forum, at link:

...


Clearly and precisely... For anyone aware of what kind of positive energy chico has been bringing to this forum, the decision to simply give up on him is a definite no-go for what I'm concerned about.

You have my full support. Thanks for stepping in


Hello All,

So sorry that a man

...


Indeed, dots connecting, synthesis, humanism... Contrary to what some people, in a pretty mean fashion, have been saying, I will certainly not buy that chico was on some ego trip... His level of insights for sure did not come from some individualistic perspective.
We people need more guys like him.

Peace

[Moonwish]

A corollary to this is that all groups should VALUE members who hold positions of HONEST dissent, because they are the ones who create opportunities for real problem solving. A member holding a point of view that seems contrary to most of the group is often a maverick type who has pioneered into areas of thinking and action more sanguine members would and have not. These mavericks of thought can yield real gold for the rest of the group and should not be shunned, imo.

Now, this is different from someone who, like a bratty child, has learned that being disruptive gets a lot of attention, even if its negative--but failing to learn how to get positive attention, is addicted to this activity. One of those tiresome situations where discernment and careful thought is called for...


Very well spoken sunnyrap. I appreciate your sophistication in expression. No lies, no censorship. It is so out these days. I''m tired of fighting this battle, and I expect the rest of you are. What is beyond our ego-expressiveneess?
Can't we do better? We can at least do something else. We have a venue. This is an indulgence. Let's not forget that.

[Mad Hatter]

Mad hatter after donning flameproof suit, tin pants and devils advocate hat read the point made about ego strips down again and being cancerian goes out to howl at the moon instead...

Good night Avalon and thanks yet again for turning a contentious issue into robust intelligent conversation... sh!t you guys are good !!!

[andywight]

Chico, hope you don't mind me posting this here, PM me if you want me to delete.


== Post edited ,please abstain from qouting posts from other forums ==

THANKS

[Moonwish]

prepositions are just that indiana. They pre-position a noun, but hold no real power as function words.

Live your life despite them. Your are a noun with agency. You can act, and had better soon.

¤=[Post Update]=¤


Mad hatter after donning flameproof suit, tin pants and devils advocate hat read the point made about ego strips down again and being cancerian goes out to howl at the moon instead...

Good night Avalon and thanks yet again for turning a contentious issue into robust intelligent conversation... sh!t you guys are good !!!





Are you circadian instead of cancerian? Makes a difference :-)

[qbeac]

Hi Paul, please, tell me, have you read the JFK speech included in my post 127? This one:

Post #127, pag. 7. JFK speech "The President and the Press" (1961)
http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?20545-Censorship-here&p=219355&viewfull=1#post219355

Paul, do you mind telling Bill Ryan about that speech and about the 2 questions I ask him in that post?

Thanks.

If you review my first 3 posts in this thread (#14, #44, #52 in pag 1 and 3) you’ll see that I asked you a couple of questions about the Chicodoodoo incident.

Please, could you answer them? Thanks.

And in the meantime, while you think about it, I’ll ask you another question, but this one is EXTREMELLY SIMPLE to answer because it does not even require an elaborate answer from you, but just a very simple choice between the 2 following options, “a” or “b”, which are based on the JFK speech in post #127 (pag7).

Paul, please, from the following 2 options (based on the JFK speech), which option would you choose, “a” or “b”?

Option a)



Without debate, without criticism, no Administration and no country [and no Internet Forum] can succeed and no republic can survive.

I not only could not stifle controversy among your readers -- I welcome it.

This Administration [Internet Forum] intends to be candid about its errors; for as a wise man once said: "An error does not become a mistake until you refuse to correct it."

We intend to accept full responsibility for our errors and we expect you to point them out when we miss them.


Option b)



With debate, with criticism, no Administration and no country and no Internet Forum can succeed and no republic and no Internet Forum can survive.

I not only could stifle controversy among your readers -- I reject it.

This Forum does not intend to be candid about its errors; for as a wise man once said: "An error becomes a mistake when you admit it."

We do not intend to accept full responsibility for our errors and we do not expect you to point them out when we miss them.


Please, Paul, which option do you prefer, “a” or “b”?

I ask the same question to Bill Ryan, and also to the rest of the Avalon members.

Thanks.

[ulli]

Discussion forums are like a specialist school. They simply cannot be compared to countries.

If I had a school to teach people to play the violin

anyone who wants to bring a drum kit would be asked to leave,

especially if they insist on using it.

[truthseekerdan]

Chico, hope you don't mind me posting this here, PM me if you want me to delete.


== Post edited ,please abstain from qouting posts from other forums ==

THANKS

MTH77XWlZg4

[qbeac]

Discussion forums are like a specialist school. They simply cannot be compared to countries....
Hi ulli, the key point in my post 161 (pag9) does not have to do with countries versus forums, but with the general concepts of tolerating or not criticism, dissent, admitting having made an error, etc.

But if you prefer not to mix Forums with countries (or republics, administrations, etc.), no problem, let’s forget for a minute about the JFK speech and let’s change the two options just for you so that they refer specifically to Internet Forums and nothing else, and, therefore, they will read as:

Option c)



Without debate, without criticism, no Internet Forum can succeed and no Internet Forum can survive.

I not only could not stifle controversy among your readers -- I welcome it.

This Internet Forum intends to be candid about its errors; for as a wise man once said: "An error does not become a mistake until you refuse to correct it."

We intend to accept full responsibility for our errors and we expect you to point them out when we miss them.


Option d)



With debate, with criticism, no Internet Forum can succeed and no Internet Forum can survive.

I not only could stifle controversy among your readers -- I reject it.

This Forum does not intend to be candid about its errors; for as a wise man once said: "An error becomes a mistake when you admit it."

We do not intend to accept full responsibility for our errors and we do not expect you to point them out when we miss them.

Please, ulli, which option do you prefer, “c” or “d”?

[Gaia]

~*&^~*&^~*&^~*&^~*&^~*&^~*&^~*&^~*&^~*&^~*&^~*&^~*&^~
I believe that the aim of moderating,is to serve the community and not the other way around. we have a virtual commune of like minded people here with a shared purpose and it desreves all we can do to keep it like that.we are mostly centered around Camelot/Avalon/Bill ryan's work (wich I wholeheartedly believe in and support) also we are gathered around the world situation and happenings as they transpire infront of our eyes,knowing full well that it was our own creation that brought us and the earth to this place,and now we want to change it.we are the pioneers of change.and on the way we are checking all sorts of ways to start anew.while doing that,old habbits might kick in...

I believe ALL of us members at forum Avalon,at Nexus2012 (boy,you guys have limited yourselfs :) The Camelot forum,Open minds,David icke's,etc etc,all have the best intentions at our hearts. ALL of us without exception (paid agents not included). to put it simply (very simply) we want a better world,we think we desreve a better world,we demand a better world its just that we are limping a bit when trying to implement it.lets excuse ourselfs and see how we can try and improve things from now on.

I believe in adressing things and issues,knowing full well that its not always gonn'a get the solutions in place right away.


qbeac originally posted: "If a moderator makes a decision (Ex: banning someone), let’s the rest of us vote (with a special button to do so) to say if we agree or disagree with it."

This will be new at the world of forums:) not very realistic I am afraid. there has to be a severe enough reason to bann a member but it is impossible to consulte the opinions of almost 3000 members (god Bless,may they come more),remember,this is not about expressing an oppsite oppinion,its either expressing it in a hostile way,giving false information about someone (smearing),raising conflicts for the sake of having a conflict or simply supporting all those.not possible to include all reasons and from my tiny experience so far,not all comunication from banned members are shown upfront. a little trust in the moderation team discretion is needed.


Aurelius has originally posted:(and changed the title of the post! (o.k, I couldn't resist this remark:)
"we need to keep challenging ourselves to improve and do things in better ways."

That might be very true

As Seikou-Kishi has said,'ad hominem' attacks are something that we all agree upon.this is also an easy part to locate,but another consideration for us members to think about is that some things are happening and are not known to to us as a community,and its o.k,not everything should be known.it is clear for everyone with eyes in their heads that a person who deals with sensitive information (whistleblowing,spirituall truths that can advance us forword,etc.) will not get a Large bouquet of flowers everyday right at his door step! guess what he gets..I beg us all to understand that having a peaceful,highly educational and friendly platform from wich all of us as well as Bill can Operate is highly important,therefore the efforts of the mods team is exactly that.

Can it be done in a different way? it is something to think about.member's opinions does not enter in one ear and go out through the other... but again,there are other considerations that are not always known.If you still dont understand please go back to read a few lines above,I hope it will be a little more clear.

Volunteers are doing this work to keep the forum a safe environment,if its not always going smoothly,please forgive us.there are some decisions that need to be taken without the consent of everyone,some other things/general suggestions and consideration quite the opposite,and it might be good to share between us all and have a more transperent and holographic nature of moderating.one more thing to keep in mind is :we are all people,individualls (with burning desires :) and we wish to try and create something different.anyone who will try to put a stick between the wheels of this beautiful speeding train will not find tolerence towords their words and actions.

Healing and blessings to us all!

Limor (mod hat on/off red,green and with a feather...as you wish)
~*&^~*&^~*&^~*&^~*&^~*&^~*&^~*&^~*&^~*&^~*&^~*&^

Well thought and well written views. I had almost forgotten people could write at this level of intelligence:)

[ulli]

I have NO PROBLEM answering with d to some and c to others.

Each situation is different.

If I notice a demand is being made that has a coercive tone

I consider it manipulative and I refuse to play along with such games.


I avoid predators.

If this forum were to give up it's (albeit human, therefore prone to err) moderators,

I'd be out of here like a flash.

[NancyV]

My answer to the option question is FORTY TWO!!


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aboZctrHfK8

[Darla Ken Pearce]

Well, is there a dead-letter forum on Avalon? We need one desperately.

All of the negative comments ~ that uplift ~ no one ~ continue to give a sour taste in our mouths. Can you feel it? I look forward to the day when these threads find their way into some dead-letter-box on Avalon, so we can move forward and onward and every time another one appears, I vote that it goes into the dark void, with the others. Everyone is struggling for personal balance and adapting to new energies, as the old tired systems end. This is just another example of one of them.

Let kindness reign.

We do not need any negativity here. There is enough of it "out there" in our homes, businesses, playgrounds, and at large in the world.

We have some beautiful carpeting inside Avalon that needs to be kept clean ~ in thought first, and then it will be made manifest. Some come in here wearing muddy boots ~ with old negative attitudes attached and they mess things up royally for everyone. We ask that they leave their old boots outside and then enter Avalon with hearts open to new ideas.

This whole censorship, secrecy, stifle-me issue is one of THIRD DIMENSIONAL CONSTUCT and is no longer needed, no longer valid, and certainly not here on Avalon. The 4th and the 5th dimension are at hand now.

The difference is that this is a sanctuary for the birth of new ideas and new leadership. Those who hold us back, need to either watch, listen, and learn or take it elsewhere. If you will notice even on this thread after so many others wrote in to please ask Chicodoodoo (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/member.php?2647-Chicodoodoo) to stop, he didn't.

It didn't even register. He continued getting in the last word dragging us all deeper into this old pit.

This is why those others have eventually had to go, they didn't get it. They were not listening. A simple attitude adjustment is required of all of us and especially when you've been kindly warned not to continue along this tact.

Why should the few negative contributors be allowed to distract and cause these arguments over and over. The answer is that they can't be allow to disrupt.

Please ~ if isn't positive and uplifting in some way and an actual contribution to our greater interests, let it find another home in some far off galaxy. I'm not talking about Chicodoodoo (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/member.php?2647-Chicodoodoo) being sent far off but his attitude needs adjusting to come back and contribute again.

Just be kind. Nothing more is required and do it so that you "harm no other being," including yourself in our presence, it's just so hard to witness. Be kind. Rewind your arguments into a better light. Now take a deep breath ; )

I went looking for an image of "we are a family" and found some elementary kids singing, "We are one big happy family" so cute. If one of them got out of line and caused a problem while they were singing, some adult would have stepped in to take them aside. That's what just happened here.

Here are the kids singing and although animated no one disturbs the song.

http://s1001.photobucket.com/albums/af133/JPW_album/?action=view&current=SANY0552.mp4

Much love! xoxoxoxox

[buckminster fuller]

Note: I am also posting this post in the Project Camelot forum, at link:

...


Clearly and precisely... For anyone aware of what kind of positive energy chico has been bringing to this forum, the decision to simply give up on him is a definite no-go for what I'm concerned about.

You have my full support. Thanks for stepping in


Hello All,

So sorry that a man

...


Indeed, dots connecting, synthesis, humanism... Contrary to what some people, in a pretty mean fashion, have been saying, I will certainly not buy that chico was on some ego trip... His level of insights for sure did not come from some individualistic perspective.
We people need more guys like him.

Peace

The above quoted post from me has been edited without even a word from the moderator who did it... It doesn't make sense without the quotes that have been removed. Maybe we, members of this community, deserve more respect than what is shown here.

Peace

[Lord Sidious]

Note: I am also posting this post in the Project Camelot forum, at link:

...


Clearly and precisely... For anyone aware of what kind of positive energy chico has been bringing to this forum, the decision to simply give up on him is a definite no-go for what I'm concerned about.

You have my full support. Thanks for stepping in


Hello All,

So sorry that a man

...


Indeed, dots connecting, synthesis, humanism... Contrary to what some people, in a pretty mean fashion, have been saying, I will certainly not buy that chico was on some ego trip... His level of insights for sure did not come from some individualistic perspective.
We people need more guys like him.

Peace

The above quoted post from me has been edited without even a word from the moderator who did it... It doesn't make sense without the quotes that have been removed. Maybe we, members of this community, deserve more respect than what is shown here.

Peace

This is at the bottom of your post nugget.
I suspect because you quoted half an encyclopaedia. :p
Last edited by Paul; Today at 02:30. Reason: trim quoted material

[buckminster fuller]

Note: I am also posting this post in the Project Camelot forum, at link:

...


Clearly and precisely... For anyone aware of what kind of positive energy chico has been bringing to this forum, the decision to simply give up on him is a definite no-go for what I'm concerned about.

You have my full support. Thanks for stepping in


Hello All,

So sorry that a man

...


Indeed, dots connecting, synthesis, humanism... Contrary to what some people, in a pretty mean fashion, have been saying, I will certainly not buy that chico was on some ego trip... His level of insights for sure did not come from some individualistic perspective.
We people need more guys like him.

Peace

The above quoted post from me has been edited without even a word from the moderator who did it... It doesn't make sense without the quotes that have been removed. Maybe we, members of this community, deserve more respect than what is shown here.

Peace

This is at the bottom of your post nugget.
I suspect because you quoted half an encyclopaedia. :p
Last edited by Paul; Today at 02:30. Reason: trim quoted material

I suspect it is not about the length of what was presented. There actually are questions asked to paul in the first quote that he still hasn't answered to. The second quote was really short, but was in defence of chico.

Paranoïa anyone ?

[HORIZONS]

Part of the problem is this little paradigm
There are two types of individual
a) who is reasonable and tries to fit in with all around him and not rock the boat and
b) who is unreasonable and tries to change things around him that differ from his beliefs.
You know what the problem is?
ALL advancements in history came from b) not a) and that is where we have issues on approaches.
People who don't take what is given as truth but search for their own then report back are usually not welcomed so much in society.
You avalonuggets all know that I am b) and there are others here like that too, including this guy
http://projectavalon.net/forum4/member.php?6-Bill-Ryan

There is also a (c), those that strive to learn and grow, wherever that takes them, and to seek out balance in all things.

I Can Be The Darkness…

I can be the darkness and I can be the light
I’d rather live in kindness and do what’s justly right
But because of circumstances in my life of pain
Sometimes I am the darkness so that I might sustain

No matter what I’m thinking
No matter where I’ve been
The darkness does surround me
The light is within

The fools of life they come and go
I can be one too
Yet I can change from light to dark (and dark to light)
To deal with the bull**** they throw

I can be the darkness and I can be the light
Whatever brings me into Balance
This is the way I will flow

[3optic]

FRED -

Ho'oponopono - Hawaiian Code of Forgiveness

I LOVE YOU

I AM SORRY

PLEASE FORGIVE ME

THANK YOU

Hi Loveandgratitude. I'm familiar with this practice and studied with Dr. Hew Len. This internal mantra, or "cleaning" as it's called is meant for oneself. In other words we recite it for ourselves to be cleaned by Divinity, not to impose a belief system on to others.

This was an excellent opportunity for you to clean (as it is for me). As your disagreeable reaction to Fred236's post arises..

I LOVE YOU

I AM SORRY

PLEASE FORGIVE ME

THANK YOU

:)

[MMA_Fan]

I think this thread has just highlighted the good and bad aspects of the electronic medium commonly known as the 'forum'.

http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/duty_calls.png

Question is - what now? Do we just accept it as part and parcel of internet life or is there a lesson here somewhere?

BTW - I'm not trying to trivialise everyone's contributions (though trivial it may seem to some). There is a sprinkling of moderators going overboard, mixed in with a dash of trouble makers. IMO

[mondaze]

the sky is blue. well sometimes... point is are we saving the virtual planet or the real one. virtual words in a virtual world solve virtually nothing...

[Jeffrey]

I believe I have a rough grasp on the function of the moderators/administrators and the mechanics of their duties. I am no expert though. This is just in regards to permanently banning other members.

"Some men see things as they are and say why, I dream of things that never were and say, why not?" -Robert Kennedy

What if the Avalon Forum introduced a jury? A program selects a certain number of members from the forum based on forum activity, amount of contribution, or by whatever stipulations the community deems fit. Then, the randomly selected (meeting said requirements) jury of Avalonians (peers) is presented with the case for expulsion. After reviewing the material, and with the best interest of Avalon in mind (using their own proper discernment according to their own understandings of the purpose and principle of the forum), they vote. The majority rule of the jury claims 49% stake in the final decision. The other 51% is left to the moderators/administrators and their processes. Seems fair(er)?

"Letting a maximum number of views be heard regularly is not just a nice philosophical notion. It is the best way any society has yet discovered to detect maladjustments quickly, to correct injustices, and to discover new ways to meet our continuing stream of novel problems that rise in a changing environment." -Ben Bagdikian

This is just a first draft of the idea. I don't know if this has been done and, again, I am no expert. It is not my intention to create commotion, I'm just sharing the hum of gears turning in my head and wondering if anyone wants to help make music.

Much Love and Thanks,

Vivek

[MMA_Fan]

the sky is blue. well sometimes... point is are we saving the virtual planet or the real one. virtual words in a virtual world solve virtually nothing...

I agree for the most part. Forums should be a tool for further progression.
Unfortunately, we sometimes get caught up in the jangle and stay there.

[MMA_Fan]

I believe I have a rough grasp on the function of the moderators/administrators and the mechanics of their duties. I am no expert though. This is just in regards to permanently banning other members.

"Some men see things as they are and say why, I dream of things that never were and say, why not?" -Robert Kennedy

What if the Avalon Forum introduced a jury? A program selects a certain number of members from the forum based on forum activity, amount of contribution, or by whatever stipulations the community deems fit. Then, the randomly selected (meeting said requirements) jury of Avalonians (peers) is presented with the case for expulsion. After reviewing the material, and with the best interest of Avalon in mind (using their own proper discernment according to their own understandings of the purpose and principle of the forum), they vote. The majority rule of the jury claims 49% stake in the final decision. The other 51% is left to the moderators/administrators and their processes. Seems fair(er)?

"Letting a maximum number of views be heard regularly is not just a nice philosophical notion. It is the best way any society has yet discovered to detect maladjustments quickly, to correct injustices, and to discover new ways to meet our continuing stream of novel problems that rise in a changing environment." -Ben Bagdikian

This is just a first draft of the idea. I don't know if this has been done and, again, I am no expert. It is not my intention to create commotion, I'm just sharing the hum of gears turning in my head and wondering if anyone wants to help make music.

Much Love and Thanks,

Vivek

If the mods have a 51% majority it is still the majority and so negates the 49%. (I think lol)

[blake]

Well, is there a dead-letter forum on Avalon? We need one desperately.

All of the negative comments ~ that uplift ~ no one ~ continue to give a sour taste in our mouths. Can you feel it? I look forward to the day when these threads find their way into some dead-letter-box on Avalon, so we can move forward and onward and every time another one appears, I vote that it goes into the dark void, with the others. Everyone is struggling for personal balance and adapting to new energies, as the old tired systems end. This is just another example of one of them.

Let kindness reign.

We do not need any negativity here. There is enough of it "out there" in our homes, businesses, playgrounds, and at large in the world.

We have some beautiful carpeting inside Avalon that needs to be kept clean ~ in thought first, and then it will be made manifest. Some come in here wearing muddy boots ~ with old negative attitudes attached and they mess things up royally for everyone. We ask that they leave their old boots outside and then enter Avalon with hearts open to new ideas.

This whole censorship, secrecy, stifle-me issue is one of THIRD DIMENSIONAL CONSTUCT and is no longer needed, no longer valid, and certainly not here on Avalon. The 4th and the 5th dimension are at hand now.

The difference is that this is a sanctuary for the birth of new ideas and new leadership. Those who hold us back, need to either watch, listen, and learn or take it elsewhere. If you will notice even on this thread after so many others wrote in to please ask Chicodoodoo (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/member.php?2647-Chicodoodoo) to stop, he didn't.

It didn't even register. He continued getting in the last word dragging us all deeper into this old pit.

This is why those others have eventually had to go, they didn't get it. They were not listening. A simple attitude adjustment is required of all of us and especially when you've been kindly warned not to continue along this tact.

Why should the few negative contributors be allowed to distract and cause these arguments over and over. The answer is that they can't be allow to disrupt.

Please ~ if isn't positive and uplifting in some way and an actual contribution to our greater interests, let it find another home in some far off galaxy. I'm not talking about Chicodoodoo (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/member.php?2647-Chicodoodoo) being sent far off but his attitude needs adjusting to come back and contribute again.

Just be kind. Nothing more is required and do it so that you "harm no other being," including yourself in our presence, it's just so hard to witness. Be kind. Rewind your arguments into a better light. Now take a deep breath ; )

I went looking for an image of "we are a family" and found some elementary kids singing, "We are one big happy family" so cute. If one of them got out of line and caused a problem while they were singing, some adult would have stepped in to take them aside. That's what just happened here.

Here are the kids singing and although animated no one disturbs the song.

http://s1001.photobucket.com/albums/af133/JPW_album/?action=view&current=SANY0552.mp4

Much love! xoxoxoxox


Hello Ms Pearce,

I am just a bit curious. If you find this thread upsetting, why are you reading it? We all have a choice on what to spend our time on. There are many daily uplifting posts on Avalon. Why don't you focus on posts that will uplift your soul or intellect if this one drags you down? Is reading this thread or any other required by Avalon members? Since few can speed read or have the time to read all the threads, why not pick threads that meet your individual needs. There is no need to cause unnecessary anguish to yourself by following this thread. It's like a televsion or radio station; if you don't like what is playing you switch the station.

Sincerely,
Mr. Davis

[Gaia]

http://www.kaitaia.com/funny/pictures/ThreadHijack/thread_direction.gif

[MMA_Fan]

That's another good point.

If you get offended by the threads why give it your focus? Energy flows where attention goes and all that. This begs the question - should the mods have censored Chico or let him have his say if it was only offending those that could have read another part of the forum?

[Jeffrey]

I believe I have a rough grasp on the function of the moderators/administrators and the mechanics of their duties. I am no expert though. This is just in regards to permanently banning other members.

"Some men see things as they are and say why, I dream of things that never were and say, why not?" -Robert Kennedy

What if the Avalon Forum introduced a jury? A program selects a certain number of members from the forum based on forum activity, amount of contribution, or by whatever stipulations the community deems fit. Then, the randomly selected (meeting said requirements) jury of Avalonians (peers) is presented with the case for expulsion. After reviewing the material, and with the best interest of Avalon in mind (using their own proper discernment according to their own understandings of the purpose and principle of the forum), they vote. The majority rule of the jury claims 49% stake in the final decision. The other 51% is left to the moderators/administrators and their processes. Seems fair(er)?

"Letting a maximum number of views be heard regularly is not just a nice philosophical notion. It is the best way any society has yet discovered to detect maladjustments quickly, to correct injustices, and to discover new ways to meet our continuing stream of novel problems that rise in a changing environment." -Ben Bagdikian

This is just a first draft of the idea. I don't know if this has been done and, again, I am no expert. It is not my intention to create commotion, I'm just sharing the hum of gears turning in my head and wondering if anyone wants to help make music.

Much Love and Thanks,

Vivek

If the mods have a 51% majority it is still the majority and so negates the 49%. (I think lol)

If there were (for the sake of an example) 11 moderators/administrators and they each had 4.6% (ish) stake in voting then that would total 51%. Let's say 7 mods/admins vote yes for a ban (32.2%). If the majority of Avalonian jurors vote negative, then the "no-go for ban" vote takes the cake. I wanted to stress that I only have a rough grasp on the mechanics of the decision-making process the mods/admins use.

The former has plenty of kinks as well.

Thank you though. See, a second rough draft of the idea. Admittedly, it is still very rough.

I expect/hope there will be further revisions/thoughts; critique is welcomed. It is extremely helpful when commentary doesn't have chastising undertones because that just makes it more difficult to sift through the criticism to find the constructive lesson therein. So thank you for that friend! :)

Much Love and Thanks,

Vivek

[Creative Lorraine]

yaba daba doo how r you?I'm fine thank u very much...
I skimmed read the whole thread... didn't learn much..
Not complaining... just bored... got off from work
Rainey outside in Indiana

I lied i did learn something on this thread it's like what ever
life is to short to sweat the pity stuff..

[MMA_Fan]

I believe I have a rough grasp on the function of the moderators/administrators and the mechanics of their duties. I am no expert though. This is just in regards to permanently banning other members.

"Some men see things as they are and say why, I dream of things that never were and say, why not?" -Robert Kennedy

What if the Avalon Forum introduced a jury? A program selects a certain number of members from the forum based on forum activity, amount of contribution, or by whatever stipulations the community deems fit. Then, the randomly selected (meeting said requirements) jury of Avalonians (peers) is presented with the case for expulsion. After reviewing the material, and with the best interest of Avalon in mind (using their own proper discernment according to their own understandings of the purpose and principle of the forum), they vote. The majority rule of the jury claims 49% stake in the final decision. The other 51% is left to the moderators/administrators and their processes. Seems fair(er)?

"Letting a maximum number of views be heard regularly is not just a nice philosophical notion. It is the best way any society has yet discovered to detect maladjustments quickly, to correct injustices, and to discover new ways to meet our continuing stream of novel problems that rise in a changing environment." -Ben Bagdikian

This is just a first draft of the idea. I don't know if this has been done and, again, I am no expert. It is not my intention to create commotion, I'm just sharing the hum of gears turning in my head and wondering if anyone wants to help make music.

Much Love and Thanks,

Vivek

If the mods have a 51% majority it is still the majority and so negates the 49%. (I think lol)

If there were (for the sake of an example) 11 moderators/administrators and they each had 4.6% (ish) stake in voting then that would total 51%. Let's say 7 mods/admins vote yes for a ban (32.2%). If the majority of Avalonian jurors vote negative, then the "no-go for ban" vote takes the cake. I wanted to stress that I only have a rough grasp on the mechanics of the decision-making process the mods/admins use.

The former has plenty of kinks as well.

Thank you though. See, a second rough draft of the idea. Admittedly, it is still very rough.

I expect/hope there will be further revisions/thoughts; critique is welcomed. It is extremely helpful when commentary doesn't have chastising undertones because that just makes it more difficult to sift through the criticism to find the constructive lesson therein. So thank you for that friend! :)

Much Love and Thanks,

Vivek

I understand now cheers :)

I think the idea definately has merit. If we were living in a physical 'Avalon' I would suggest that trial by jury is a fair and democratic process.
The process you described is democratic. Actually it's better.

(Reminds me of the joke about a judge studying for years and overseeing numerous cases, only to have the law decided by a plumber, baker, carpenter etc.) In your suggestion all would get a vote.:thumb:

[Seikou-Kishi]

~*&^~*&^~*&^~*&^~*&^~*&^~*&^~*&^~*&^~*&^~*&^~*&^~*&^~
Limor (mod hat on/off red,green and with a feather...as you wish)
~*&^~*&^~*&^~*&^~*&^~*&^~*&^~*&^~*&^~*&^~*&^~*&^

I loved your post, it was sensible and well thought out, but you know we're going to have to get you a feathery mod hat now :P

[Davidallany]

As someone with majority Irish background,

0V0TPoQBQfQ&feature=related
Irish drinking song for my Lord.

[perfectresonance]

Currently, there is no system in place to moderate the moderators (I am including Bill Ryan in this moderator group). The moderators have absolute power over the voices of Avalon members, and as we all know, absolute power corrupts absolutely. We are seeing signs of this corruption beginning to grow. I myself have been silenced unjustifiably, and others have been silenced as well. Any one of you could easily be next.


Woah... that'll teach me to go away for a few days. Things move quickly here.

As far as I could see chicadoodoo, you got exactly what you were trying to achieve over the last few weeks. In my mind the mods have been very patient with you and in the end you ran out of credit.

The debate you wanted to stir up is a valid one. But it has already played out in real life.

This IS the place owned by the site owner, with the site owner's rules, enforced by a handful of people that carry out the site owner's wishes.

And this IS a community.

But when part of the community evolves into having competing objectives, --OR-- if the owner changes the rules, then both of those situations are fair and equitable.

And so is the response. Part of the disaffected community can start their own forum, with their own rules, mods and enforcement. And that happened.

Instead of seeing this outcome as a failure of the Avalon Forums, I see it as a natural process of evolution.

Nothing is static.

And if there is a lesson in there, it is that when you are in a "place" where you think everything is perfect, then 1) enjoy 2) be thankful and 3) don't take it for granted.

Because the only constant in this universe?

Change.


(Ok, greybeard, and Love.... ...I'm trying to make a point LOL)

[qbeac]

Possible solutions to the current situation:

The following ones are three great ideas, and btw, the meritocracy is not my idea, is Benjamin Fulford’s idea, but I like it as well:


… What if the Avalon Forum introduced a jury? …


… A system of checks and balances is called for here, one that is circular as opposed to hierarchical. In other words, if moderators are tasked with controlling the community, the community must also be tasked with controlling the moderators…


… a Meritocracy as Benjamin Fulford has mentioned so many times in his weekly updates as being a good system to rule the world, as opposed to the current ones of dictatorships and the like…

Clarification:

Of course, the details of how those ideas could be designed and brought to practice can be worked out later, because there are many different ways to do it. But the important thing is that the basic concepts exist. Now it is a matter of deciding what exact percentages to choose, what procedures or protocols to follow, etc.

The goal is to improve the current situation, and it can be done.

[Seikou-Kishi]

This IS the place owned by the site owner, with the site owner's rules, enforced by a handful of people that carry out the site owner's wishes.

And this IS a community.

I don't even think the moderators enforce. I think they just subtly nudge lol. From what I've seen, there's definitely a gentle 'yin' approach to moderating (I think that's a good thing though, why go head-to-head with trouble-makers, trading punch for punch?)

[Creative Lorraine]

You know Qbeac, your writings are like David Wilcock's....
Anyone want to bet Qbeac is David Wilcock?
Whoops Qbeac signed off....

[Gaia]

Because the only constant in this universe? Change.



This is debatable : The universe itself is in a state of constant expansion !

From an affirmative perspective, it is true. Everything is constantly changing and those changes include, but are not limited to, time, appearance, and creation. Change is not a single thing because it includes anything that, well, changes. So because of change including very many subcategories, it can be easily argued that it is constant. You have to look at the small details to be able to see the big picture.

From a negative perspective, it is false. Change is one thing. Time is another and so on and so forth. Besides, it can be argued change is not constant because constant is the same. Change is not the same because it, in term, changes.

Kindest regards my friend !

Gaia

[Lord Sidious]

~*&^~*&^~*&^~*&^~*&^~*&^~*&^~*&^~*&^~*&^~*&^~*&^~*&^~
Limor (mod hat on/off red,green and with a feather...as you wish)
~*&^~*&^~*&^~*&^~*&^~*&^~*&^~*&^~*&^~*&^~*&^~*&^

I loved your post, it was sensible and well thought out, but you know we're going to have to get you a feathery mod hat now :P

How about this one to wear whilst using a foil to sort out problem posternuggets?
http://www.kacike.org/shopping/files/productsimages/BS_C/21581.jpg

Or this one to wear whilst casting them into eternal fire?
http://www.coachhousegifts.com/seasonal/image.php?type=P&id=34785

[NancyV]

Possible solutions to the current situation:

The following ones are three great ideas, and btw, the meritocracy is not my idea, is Benjamin Fulford’s idea, but I like it as well:


… What if the Avalon Forum introduced a jury? …


… A system of checks and balances is called for here, one that is circular as opposed to hierarchical. In other words, if moderators are tasked with controlling the community, the community must also be tasked with controlling the moderators…


… a Meritocracy as Benjamin Fulford has mentioned so many times in his weekly updates as being a good system to rule the world, as opposed to the current ones of dictatorships and the like…

Clarification:

Of course, the details of how those ideas could be designed and brought to practice can be worked out later, because there are many different ways to do it. But the important thing is that the basic concepts exist. Now it is a matter of deciding what exact percentages to choose, what procedures or protocols to follow, etc.

The goal is to improve the current situation, and it can be done.
This forum is already set up with it's guidelines and moderators and is going along just fine for most of us. A few people want to reorganize a few thousand people and take over decision making from those who have already set it up. It would be better for those who want administrative changes to open their own forum and administrate it in the way they would like, just as Chicodoodoo was going to do, just as those at NEXUS are doing.

The only thing I see that needs to be improved is for those who love complaining about the way Avalon is moderated to either give it up as a lost cause or go elsewhere. It is the way it is. Of course it will change organically as time passes, everything changes, but if you want radical and immediate change it's most likely not going to happen here. You want a jury? Not going to happen here. You want voting? Not going to happen here. All these suggestions would entail HUGE amounts of extra work for.... guess who? Bill and the volunteer moderators! Plus there are not many who see a need for such changes. Those who want those changes are free to leave and start or search for a forum that fulfills their desires.

This is not a democracy or a meritocracy, it's a benevolent dictatorship as are the vast majority of forums on the Internet. The few that aren't are usually quite chaotic and often unpleasant for people who don't like constant conflict and complaining.

[ThePythonicCow]

Well said, NancyV. Thank-you.

[Ilie Pandia]

NancyV, thank you for your post!

You have a clear view of the picture here. I recommend to all that read this thread to pay special attention to NancyV's posts.

Update:

Just a summary of NancyV's post (in case you are lazy like me when it comes to reading up thread):

(NancyV's words with which I agree)


This forum is already set up with it's guidelines and moderators and is going along just fine for most of us
It would be better for those who want administrative changes to open their own forum
those who love complaining about the way Avalon is moderated to either give it up as a lost cause or go elsewhere.
You want a jury? Not going to happen here. You want voting? Not going to happen here
This is not a democracy or a meritocracy, it's a benevolent dictatorship as are the vast majority of forums on the Internet.

[Gaia]

How about this one to wear whilst using a foil to sort out problem posternuggets?

Word, Word, Word ! I'm So sick of this word Lord ! Nuggets...

[Rocky_Shorz]

http://thepythoniccow.us/carrot_nuggets.jpeg

where is lord of the carrot nuggets?

http://www.recipemuncher.com/carrot-juice-and-carrot-nugget.html


I think since this topic pops up at least once a week, that none of us take it seriously...


a round for the house... ;)

[Whiskey_Mystic]

Currently, there is no system in place to moderate the moderators (I am including Bill Ryan in this moderator group). The moderators have absolute power over the voices of Avalon members, and as we all know, absolute power corrupts absolutely. We are seeing signs of this corruption beginning to grow. I myself have been silenced unjustifiably, and others have been silenced as well. Any one of you could easily be next.


tdVnVPNisjE

[Gaia]

I think since this topic pops up at least once a week, that none of us take it seriously...

There are three types of people in the world: Those who get things done, those who watch things getting done, and those who wonder what's going on.

[Lord Sidious]

I think since this topic pops up at least once a week, that none of us take it seriously...

There are three types of people in the world: Those who get things done, those who watch things getting done, and those who wonder what's going on.

And the Sith Lords that send nuggets to get things done.
Don't forget us, oops.
I mean them, yeah, them. :p

[Gaia]

I think since this topic pops up at least once a week, that none of us take it seriously...

There are three types of people in the world: Those who get things done, those who watch things getting done, and those who wonder what's going on.

And the Sith Lords that send nuggets to get things done.
Don't forget us, oops.
I mean them, yeah, them. :p

The Nuggets have to weigh their options dont you think ? It's way past soap opera. It's like a bad movie now !

[Amer]

;)
Avalon has already fragmented, more than once, as a result of this problem, and this division is on-going. It will continue until the problem is properly addressed. That is the purpose of this post.


We wish you well in your endeavors, Chicodoodoo.

Your Project Avalon account has been deactivated.

As it states in the forum Guidelines:


Anyone who does not appear to be in alignment with the purpose and energy of the forum may be asked to leave.


Avalon is ill, very, very ill.
This has been evident for a long time.
First we had camelot, that split.
Then we had camelot and avalon.
Avalon split and now we have nexus.
Do we have to have another split before we sit down and wonder what is going on?
How many times do we have to go down to the well before we believe the well is empty?
You know why I rock the boat?
I care.
If I did not, I wouldn't bother.
......................................
Now I hear you all getting your backs up again, because I am telling the truth.
......................................
If I am the only one here that can see that and will risk my account to tell you this, so be it.
My advice is to fix this now, while we can before it causes yet another split.
I don't have all the answers, but I am willing to find them.


It has been pointed out to me by one of the mods, who cared enough about me, bill and the forum to spend over an hour and a half of his time to try and sort this out.

( I have put the words in bold not the original authors )

For my curiousity Rob- do you have any idea why you were given a very very long leash and Chicodoodoo no?

You both raised an issue that seems to be united in:
* a sincere belief that a problem exists
* a sincere desire to solve said problem for the sake of Avalon and Avalon alone
* the failure of Avalon founder & team giving stated belief credence

And so is there really an elephant in the room?
Are we really ignoring something that might be an opportunity for growth or is it merely as some would believe all construed for god only knows what obscure personal end ........

A lot of people have got/are getting pretty tied up in all of this- and bar one or two- I believe their intentions sincere.

It may however be an idea to take Ross's advice


The best approach is one of non-personal attachment, take what you like and leave alone what you don't...

....... above all when it becomes apparent that a very clear line has been drawn not in the sand but pretty much in concrete ...... :flypig: by a "benevolent dictator" ;) ( oxymoron perhaps ?!)
Goodnight all xx

[Lord Sidious]

You might see that I wasn't so much being rude and I was only looking at Bill, not the staff.
I can't say I ever had any issues with em.
And we are talking about different issues, his is censorship, mine was bill and some of his issues.

[Ilie Pandia]

A lot of people have got/are getting pretty tied up in all of this- and bar one or two- I believe their intentions sincere.


Hello Amer,

That statement is not actually accurate. There are very few people that have got/are getting pretty tied up in all of this (not a lot).

I agree with NancyV statement (I've added the emphasis):


This forum is already set up with it's guidelines and moderators and is going along just fine for most of us.

We do actually receive PMs and emails commending us for our efforts. We also get a lot of PMs and email asking for help which we provide. But because those are mostly gentle "whispers" you don't get to hear about them :).

Going trough my daily tasks I've just realized there is only an "apparent conflict" between the moderators and the members of the forum. What is actually happening is that we all are on the same side and the main task of the moderation team is to serve and support this community.

That may not be apparent for those that force us to intervene, but they are only a few and not "a lot" or "most of" the members.

[Gaia]

And we are talking about different issues, his is censorship, mine was bill and some of his issues.

Its clear to see there are differences of opinions about moderating this forum. I enjoy Bill Ryan interviews and threads a lot, I love his character and prudence and genuine earthiness.

Forgiveness is best for all involved.

Gaia

[dan i el]

When I came here Chicodoodoo had a thread about sociopaths...
right away I was noticing the direction that discussion was taking, i.e. not solving anything,
but rather creating more questions than answers.

I was using this signature then: "where the focus goes, energy flows"

something I firmly believe in- not just because I read it somewhere, but because I have found it to be true.

Taking down the NWO by identifying the sociopaths among the leadership can't really lead anywhere.

How would one know who exactly is the sociopath and who is not, and moreover, where do you draw the line between those who are and those who are not?
You would end up with a Nazi type of system...like racism.

Then he was trying to build a community of absolute equality for all members
this reminded me of Soviet communism's 72 year`road to nowhere...

History has shown all the possible pitfalls of non workinbg systems
and the only thing that works is a combo of all
where even a monarchy has it's place as some might want the ceremonial type of leadership

So here is Avalon:
members post and moderators who are also members in good standing keep an eye on the general tone and level of discussion
then, when a moderator is way out of line the other moderators as well as some of the members and finally Bill would step in and make suggestions, if that doesn't work, there are the reminders, like turning down the volume, and finally the off button.
The choice is with the disturber, to discover that his droning is not becoming his real potential which is to make music rather than drone on and on.


Someone like that is either damaged by childhood experiences or mind controlled by outside interference.

I would love to hear what Omniverse or OnyxKnight think of this, although I would never DEMAND that they respond to my request.

Hear me, guys?

You are free to NOT respond.

I will not hold it against you, nor would I call on the moderators to get you to reply.

It's all a matter of respect for another's right to sovereignty and Bill who I think was the real target in all of this has such a right, too.

In terms of "who is a sociopath anyway" I tend to agree. I have been reading at forums for diagnosed sociopaths/psychopaths inthe last few months and it is surely too simple to proclaim a black and white whodunnit based solely in terms of the diagnosed condition itself.

I think it is true that the prevailing system is headed by staunch sang froid psychopaths and has been formore years than someone might care to remember- and further that within that/this ongoing dynamic sociopathy is rewarded and declared as meritous -- thus creating a situation where the entire species affected overtime becomes more psychopathic as they model the desired order -- most people want to adhere to the status quo, apparently. You probably already know this.

I have Asperger's syndrome, for instance. F84.5. There are a lot of rubbishy silly things that are said about people with it -- that we can't imagine or that we are unable to conceive of a gestalt etc..but in terms of dear Asperger himself - he referred to us as "autistic psychopaths" by way of definition - ergo - by the given rational that cleansing the species of the psychopath leads to utopia; I am up against the wall too probably.

would one such as me then say in appeal : "Please don't shoot me, I have empathy"

if I was an esoteric freemason perhaps it'd be easier to see in purely as black and white.

sorry for the ramble tone. Glad the earthquake dissipated, ulli

[Seikou-Kishi]

~*&^~*&^~*&^~*&^~*&^~*&^~*&^~*&^~*&^~*&^~*&^~*&^~*&^~
Limor (mod hat on/off red,green and with a feather...as you wish)
~*&^~*&^~*&^~*&^~*&^~*&^~*&^~*&^~*&^~*&^~*&^~*&^

I loved your post, it was sensible and well thought out, but you know we're going to have to get you a feathery mod hat now :P

How about this one to wear whilst using a foil to sort out problem posternuggets?
http://www.kacike.org/shopping/files/productsimages/BS_C/21581.jpg

Or this one to wear whilst casting them into eternal fire?
http://www.coachhousegifts.com/seasonal/image.php?type=P&id=34785

A foil? How about just 'foil'. We could line the hat with foil to keep her thoughts in her brain cage.

[Gaia]

A foil? How about just 'foil'. We could line the hat with foil to keep her thoughts in her brain cage.

Foil is for girls ! Does this mean that foil is a sissy weapon, or is the problem somehow genetic ? Maybe a foil has too many X chromosomes imho.

One, I don't like to have, be hooked up to wires that are hooked up to the ceiling !

[Dorok]

Just my two cents after reading every last word in this thread...

If the OP's original post is not being meaningfully debated, and the OP is deactivated, why is this thread still open?

[sllim11]

ssshhhhhh. it just got real quiet.

[perfectresonance]

Just my two cents after reading every last word in this thread...

If the OP's original post is not being meaningfully debated, and the OP is deactivated, why is this thread still open?

In my experience, it's a tricky thing to close a thread called Censorship here?

I suspect the mods would prefer it peter out by itself instead of provide fodder for those with their hearts set on debating the "truth" about censorship at Avalon...

Sometimes my 2c worth seems more like 3. This is such a case. :no:

[blake]

Possible solutions to the current situation:

The following ones are three great ideas, and btw, the meritocracy is not my idea, is Benjamin Fulford’s idea, but I like it as well:


… What if the Avalon Forum introduced a jury? …


… A system of checks and balances is called for here, one that is circular as opposed to hierarchical. In other words, if moderators are tasked with controlling the community, the community must also be tasked with controlling the moderators…


… a Meritocracy as Benjamin Fulford has mentioned so many times in his weekly updates as being a good system to rule the world, as opposed to the current ones of dictatorships and the like…

Clarification:

Of course, the details of how those ideas could be designed and brought to practice can be worked out later, because there are many different ways to do it. But the important thing is that the basic concepts exist. Now it is a matter of deciding what exact percentages to choose, what procedures or protocols to follow, etc.

The goal is to improve the current situation, and it can be done.
This forum is already set up with it's guidelines and moderators and is going along just fine for most of us. A few people want to reorganize a few thousand people and take over decision making from those who have already set it up. It would be better for those who want administrative changes to open their own forum and administrate it in the way they would like, just as Chicodoodoo was going to do, just as those at NEXUS are doing.

The only thing I see that needs to be improved is for those who love complaining about the way Avalon is moderated to either give it up as a lost cause or go elsewhere. It is the way it is. Of course it will change organically as time passes, everything changes, but if you want radical and immediate change it's most likely not going to happen here. You want a jury? Not going to happen here. You want voting? Not going to happen here. All these suggestions would entail HUGE amounts of extra work for.... guess who? Bill and the volunteer moderators! Plus there are not many who see a need for such changes. Those who want those changes are free to leave and start or search for a forum that fulfills their desires.

This is not a democracy or a meritocracy, it's a benevolent dictatorship as are the vast majority of forums on the Internet. The few that aren't are usually quite chaotic and often unpleasant for people who don't like constant conflict and complaining.

Hello Ms V,

I don’t quite follow your reasoning. We do indeed seem to have two different perspectives on this issue; but, if it is not too upsetting to you, I would like to try to understand yours a bit more. My perspective is that no matter what the various members say, Avalon will always be a dictatorship. Members can say whatever they want, politely of course; but the bottom line is that the member’s words have absolutely no power to change anything about how Avalon is run. So, to me, all this talk about Avalon remaining a dictatorship and not changing its rules is a moot point.

I am curious as to why any intellectual discussion, on any non violent topic, could possibly trigger such intense criticism, and the seemingly enforced limitation on freedom of speech that some commenting on this thread seem to be advocating whether they realize it or not.

Since no one is forced to read any thread, why does anyone object to any topic on any one thread as long as it is non violent and does not blazingly be rude to anyone? It seems that you, and others prefer that there be limitation on what can and can not be discussed. Why? I don’t believe any thread has any power, except to share knowledge, opinions, and maybe, just maybe widen someone’s perspective to see more than they didn’t see before. They may not agree, but at least maybe they can begin to understand the other human’s perspective; and isn’t that the first step to peaceful co existence?

I guess I am just so puzzled because even if there was an ongoing thread of interested parties talking about this issue about how Avalon could be different, it is just virtual keyboard warriors talking….. no coup could actually take place! But more importantly no one is forced to read it. I may love to be on the debate team, but some people may prefer to be in the band. Isn’t the Avalon forum big enough for us all? Or do we really have to choose? That is what I feel all those reading this particular thread, who were upset by the thread, is forcing a point on, that should not have to be forced. Freedom of speech is healthy on so many levels for all, when done with respect.

Do you remember when Gaddafi years ago invited all the poets, writers and painters to come and have an open forum on literature and the arts to promote the culture of Libya?
After everyone who wanted to participate in this “wonderful” forum signed in, Gaddafi immediately had them all thrown in jail. And, sadly, some of these writers, poets and artists are still in jail…..and for what crime? Promoting a different view than he had. He felt he needed to protect his power. I never could understand why freedom of speech, especially through the arts, could be such a threat to so many. I am equally puzzled why freedom of speech, by powerless keyboard warriors appears to be such threat to those who run Avalon?

You might say you don’t want to be part of a thread that you perceive as beating beat a dead horse. Maybe from your perspective it is dead, but maybe from another’s view point it is not. But more importantly, you have the free will to choose to read a different thread.

Is it not best to remember that Avalon is all virtual? Everyone is safe. There is no need to fear a power grab here. The rules will not be changed no matter what is discussed. So since the bottom line is that the rules cannot be changed by anyone except Bill Ryan, why would anyone object so vehemently against someone’s opinion as what I seemed to witness in this virtual opinion thread?

Of course, you, Ms V, are under no obligation to read this let alone answer it. I am just curious why you spent your valuable time reading a thread that obviously was upsetting you, but could not hurt you in any way or change how Avalon is run.

In this day and age, unfortunately, the American government can call anyone an enemy combatant that they choose. Police are often annoyed, and will even arrest Americans quoting the Federal Constitution. Those in governmental power have a real fear of the waking of the masses, and many in power feel that dissent must be suppressed. However, in the virtual world of Avalon, as I have stated before, the members have no power. They can only state their opinions. Mr. Ryan and his moderating team call all the shots. So why are they apparently so afraid of free speech on this forum? Why is it that many are reading threads they object to? Why not read a different thread? Why is it not okay for members to start a thread discussing the banning of members? I will admit, there are some threads that I will not even open when I see who starts them. I am happy for them to have the platform to discuss what they want to discuss, but I will only open threads that I have an interest in. So I am confused why so many people who apparently get upset with Chicodoodoo’s viewpoint would even open up one of his threads?

People can talk about love and light all they want, words can be, after all very cheap. But in my opinion, until right action is shown by humans seeking to understand those they may disagree with, as long as people have fear where no real threat exists, then humans will continue to mistreat each other and this new model of society that Mr. Ryan speaks of will never come to be.

Sincerely,

Mr. Davis

[Flash]

~*&^~*&^~*&^~*&^~*&^~*&^~*&^~*&^~*&^~*&^~*&^~*&^~*&^~
Limor (mod hat on/off red,green and with a feather...as you wish)
~*&^~*&^~*&^~*&^~*&^~*&^~*&^~*&^~*&^~*&^~*&^~*&^

I loved your post, it was sensible and well thought out, but you know we're going to have to get you a feathery mod hat now :P

I don't know if mods cut the referred post or if Seikou-kishi did it but let me tell you: the cut is way too short. I don't know what the previous topic is about at all and have to refer to the original post to understand (brain can retain 7 posts at a time - 7 items). Then I loose the post I was at when I referred to the previous post.

result: I get discourage and cannot follow the thread - Is that the purpose????

Overdoing it is overdoing it. Buckminster fuller could not be read anylonger either.

Please, if the target is us to stop reading, good, let us know. If not, let the meat of referred posts be shown. Thanks

and this holds for whomever cut the references.

thanks

ps ok I was at 185 now I have to go back. Worst than parking spots, where did I park? Have to remember! Same when I have to go back to previous posts in order to understand what the author of the new post refers to. Lots of parking today. I think I lost my car!

[Jeffrey]

How is one chosen to be a moderator for the forum? How many moderators are there here?

Much Love and Thanks,

Vivek

[buckminster fuller]

Thanks Mr. Davis.. A lot of good points here... I'd like to add that if Avalon is in anyway meant to play a role in the bettering of this world, loosing such valuable members as chico is a real drama, despite his eloquence and the vigorous faith in what he believes in. That people here feel relieved that the subject is now closed, as it means that a member who has been focusing on the greater common good is gone, doesn't match the idea that I had about the overall mentality here. It starts to feel like some kind of dogma is shaping the way ideas are received. Creativity doesn't flow, spirituality often gets mixed up with problem solving, pragmatic views. Don't forget that the ego finds its power source in what people thinks others think about them. The "group effect" feeds on that, and it takes some openness to welcome views that differ from ours.

Dissent is needed, as there is no hope for creativity if doors remain closed and if no questions are asked.

Chico deserves an apology from many already, maybe some people will see that when they go over some of his older posts. I hope so for them anyway.

Peace

[Lord Sidious]

How is one chosen to be a moderator for the forum? How many moderators are there here?

Much Love and Thanks,

Vivek

Bill invites those he wants on staff and here
http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showgroups.php
is the list of mods/admins.

[Mad Hatter]

Warning: Input from a type b) :p albeit one with a fairly mushy inside!!

Having observed several of these types of threads in recent times I have noticed some similarities, it is apparent to me that the same elephant squats in every room. That being what is a fair and reasonable solution to the common issue of dealing perceived slights.

Some take the view it is yet more same old same old and go to great pains to point out that the system is FAD (Functioning As Designed).

We seem to have those upset with this style of thread attempting to put the world right from their viewpoint despite themselves claiming things like energy flows where attention goes etc. I often wonder how they do not see that as slightly hypocritical...

Invariably their is input from those saying all this is old world thinking and we should all rise above it. I like the positive vibe but once again wonder why they are participating in a thread which they percieve as old world thinking...

Then we have input from those who believe the system is FUBAR (F'd Up Beyond All Recognition) so be it, thanks for your input, provided it is put nicely...

Of course we get those that simply choose to inject a bit of levity, god bless them.

Then of course we come to the poor bloody admin / moderators, volunteers one and all doing a somewhat thankless task, sitting on the edge of their seats no doubt hoping that one or other of the denizens doesn't lose the plot and go over the top, thus forcing them to play the bad guy once again and kicking of another round he said she said. Talk about meat in middle of the proverbial sandwich!! I really do feel for you guys...

What is interesting to note also is the ratio of those volunteering solutions as opposed to those just voicing an opinion, which for those hoping for intelligent conversation on the issue could be seen as unbeneficial noise. (I stand guilty as charged)

It is patently obvious for those paying attention that one way or another, in the world at large, the excrement has reached terminal velocity on its path to the high speed rotating device.

Keeping in mind I have a wife and two daughters I'd like to think I can look after I would be derelict in my duty if I did not give serious consideration of available options regarding a course of action in light of what might transpire...

Having said all that, for me at least is the following conundrum...

1) Since I choose to err on the side of pessimism, because I get to enjoy more suprises that way, the suprise in this scenario would be that we all ascend and live happily ever after. In that sense I admire Bill and Inelias efforts in researching how that might be brought about on some massive scale.

2) The current system collapses entirely and it turns out to be every man / community for themselves

3) Things continue to mosey along pretty much as they always have...

In light of options two and three eventuating is where I think the discussion regarding a better form of rule is of the utmost importance. Why? Because nature abhors a vacuum and should we be faced with the collapse scenario unless we can present a truly viable alternative we very much risk having the command and control structure ressurect itself. OMG here we go again.

An even more difficult scenario is option three because unless we find some means to alter the current paradigm I am truly apprehensive about the world our children might inherit.

I respectfully suggest that the nature of this topic and others like it can and should be discussed at Avalon by those who are looking for an answer to these issues in the sense of the wider context.

Since Avalon is a microcosm of the world at large albeit populated with a more gifted and intelligent dynamic can anyone suggest where a cogent discussion of options or solutions might be undertaken if not here??

cheers

[HORIZONS]

Just my two cents after reading every last word in this thread...

If the OP's original post is not being meaningfully debated, and the OP is deactivated, why is this thread still open?

Because some things never die ;)

[noxon medem]

Thanks a lot to Chicodoodoo for raising important questions in a civilized and well formulated manner.
You have been treated unfair here by the mods, Paul in particular, and the abuse of power he manifest
on this thread, and bias towards you, more than proves your point of worry concerning the present day
Avalon Forum. Encouraging, and thanking, personal attacks on you, and the impugning of your motives,
is an untolereable double standart from a mod, if he want
to maintain an overall easy authority.
Seeing how people are being hit with the socalled guidelines of course proves that the mods have lost that one long ago.

I am stunned at this developement, and the rate of loss of quality posters here,
it is very discouraging, and the worst is the total lack of willingness from "leadership" to see that
there is a real problem here, and to adress that problem, instead of silencing all critisism and then
pretending everything is OK. That is the most serious challenge to the "spirit of Avalon".

Chicodoodoo make valid points, and the thread is interesting reading, or should I say Study.
One of many ironies present itself here:

Another boring waste of time crap thread, contributes to nothing.
regards to all
romanThat quoted post is to me the absolute lowpoint in the thread, and one of few that deserve
the description he insist on sharing about the thread as such.
I hope that post is not indicative of the quality of the Avalon Forum after "the cleansing".

More could, and should, be said about this. But I am lost for words.
I am not in the best mood, too sad about developements right now.
Even hard pressed to wish you all well at the moment.

PS. I understand that some of the suggestions presented on this thread is
difficult to imply. The discussion however is still valid and potentially constructive.

One thing that should be a fixed policy:
Whenever a post is edited (or deleted) by a Mod, then a PM should be sent
to the member writing that post. Anyway, how small changes have been made.
Can Mods and members comment on this concrete and easily applicable suggestion ?

All well.
nm

[ulli]

Mad Hatter:
We seem to have those upset with this style of thread attempting to put the world right from their viewpoint despite themselves claiming things like energy flows where attention goes etc. I often wonder how they do not see that as slightly hypocritical...

Obviously this sentence refers to my post and so please allow me to straighten something out here
since hypocrisy is not something I like to be accused of.

I was not upset at all with this style of this thread, on the contrary,
people fascinate me and perhaps you should have called me a voyeur, but not a hypocrite.

I was baffled that Chico was so insistent in his demands and was curious
if he might switch to a more positive attitude now that he was back.

I love to see people suddenly let go of some obsession, and get back into happy camper mode.
This clearly was one option before him, since the other route was clearly marked to be a dead end.

Being obsessive myself has taught me that what I focus on seems to come back at me magnified.

At this moment I have the pleasure of talking about myself,
and making full use of Avalon for giving me that platform.

It's therapy.

Whether you read this or not makes little difference to me,

I thank you for having given me food for thought...

[Mad Hatter]

Hi Uli,

With the benefit of hindsight (20/20 vision) and with the utmost respect the point I was trying to get across was the general position of various posters on various threads coming forth with that particular take on the matter at hand. Perhaps I should have looked long and hard at some of my own posts to see if I could have used me as an example instead.

It was never intended to be construed as one particular members viewpoint but an attempt to get across a generalisation of the look and feel of some posts.

Of course anyone else can and is free to identify with any of the generalisations I made but I would consider that unfortunate because it was not my intent to single anyone out. If I had wanted to do such a thing I would have used quotes.

I humbly apologise to you and anyone else who has taken offence as it was never my intent.

From the voyeur in me to the voyeur in you....:popcorn:

[NancyV]

This forum is already set up with it's guidelines and moderators and is going along just fine for most of us. A few people want to reorganize a few thousand people and take over decision making from those who have already set it up. It would be better for those who want administrative changes to open their own forum and administrate it in the way they would like, just as Chicodoodoo was going to do, just as those at NEXUS are doing.

The only thing I see that needs to be improved is for those who love complaining about the way Avalon is moderated to either give it up as a lost cause or go elsewhere. It is the way it is. Of course it will change organically as time passes, everything changes, but if you want radical and immediate change it's most likely not going to happen here. You want a jury? Not going to happen here. You want voting? Not going to happen here. All these suggestions would entail HUGE amounts of extra work for.... guess who? Bill and the volunteer moderators! Plus there are not many who see a need for such changes. Those who want those changes are free to leave and start or search for a forum that fulfills their desires.

This is not a democracy or a meritocracy, it's a benevolent dictatorship as are the vast majority of forums on the Internet. The few that aren't are usually quite chaotic and often unpleasant for people who don't like constant conflict and complaining.

Hello Ms V,

I don’t quite follow your reasoning. We do indeed seem to have two different perspectives on this issue; but, if it is not too upsetting to you, I would like to try to understand yours a bit more. My perspective is that no matter what the various members say, Avalon will always be a dictatorship. Members can say whatever they want, politely of course; but the bottom line is that the member’s words have absolutely no power to change anything about how Avalon is run. So, to me, all this talk about Avalon remaining a dictatorship and not changing its rules is a moot point.
Hello Mr. Davis,

You are probably correct that our perspectives are somewhat different, but I'm sure our differences are rather minute in the big picture. Thank you for explaining your perspective and please understand that I am not upset, maybe a bit "stimulated" or passionate at times, but not upset in a negative or uncomfortable way. So if you think any of my statements/criticisms were intense, you haven't seen me when I'm intense. I was definitely using my "nice" tone here. So it's all relative and a matter of perspective, as is everything.


I am curious as to why any intellectual discussion, on any non violent topic, could possibly trigger such intense criticism, and the seemingly enforced limitation on freedom of speech that some commenting on this thread seem to be advocating whether they realize it or not.

Since no one is forced to read any thread, why does anyone object to any topic on any one thread as long as it is non violent and does not blazingly be rude to anyone? It seems that you, and others prefer that there be limitation on what can and can not be discussed. Why? I don’t believe any thread has any power, except to share knowledge, opinions, and maybe, just maybe widen someone’s perspective to see more than they didn’t see before. They may not agree, but at least maybe they can begin to understand the other human’s perspective; and isn’t that the first step to peaceful co existence?

I guess I am just so puzzled because even if there was an ongoing thread of interested parties talking about this issue about how Avalon could be different, it is just virtual keyboard warriors talking….. no coup could actually take place! But more importantly no one is forced to read it. I may love to be on the debate team, but some people may prefer to be in the band. Isn’t the Avalon forum big enough for us all? Or do we really have to choose? That is what I feel all those reading this particular thread, who were upset by the thread, is forcing a point on, that should not have to be forced. Freedom of speech is healthy on so many levels for all, when done with respect.
I completely agree with your reasoning here. The way you present your arguments is reasonable and intelligent. You are not engaging in personal attacks or hints that could be construed as an ad hominem attack or impugning my integrity, in fact you are most likely a lot more reasonable and less passionate than I am.

I have no problem with any thread as long as those who are discussing things are not subtly trying to undermine Bill and the moderators as, in my opinion, Chico and a few others were doing. If they actually think their suggestions are going to be implemented but I am fairly sure those suggestions are not going to be implemented I will often state what I see as the reality. Maybe those who are pushing for changes to their way of running the forum think things will change because of their complaints or maybe they like to indulge in confrontation and criticisms more than I do, which is fine.

I agree with your point regarding any thread being okay as long as people discuss things reasonably respectfully. Of course there may be a few subjects that Bill might find to not be in alignment with the purposes for which he formed Avalon and it is always his right and his judgment call to discontinue those threads. He's the boss.

I occasionally have a tendency to get a bit impatient in a situation where I see someone whose head is hurting and I am sometimes drawn to giving them a bit of help in stopping the pain. Maybe it's my motherly instincts. If I'm feeling compassionate I will mention to them that they are wielding the hammer that is hitting them on the head over and over. To be perfectly honest I am also not an avoider of conflict, in fact I have drawn much conflict into my life at different times. Communicating on a forum with people with whom you disagree is always a GREAT lesson for me in working on patience and diplomacy.... and I do fail in both areas on occasion.


Do you remember when Gaddafi years ago invited all the poets, writers and painters to come and have an open forum on literature and the arts to promote the culture of Libya?
After everyone who wanted to participate in this “wonderful” forum signed in, Gaddafi immediately had them all thrown in jail. And, sadly, some of these writers, poets and artists are still in jail…..and for what crime? Promoting a different view than he had. He felt he needed to protect his power. I never could understand why freedom of speech, especially through the arts, could be such a threat to so many. I am equally puzzled why freedom of speech, by powerless keyboard warriors appears to be such threat to those who run Avalon?
Yes, that was horrific. He truly is a monster. There are many things which used to puzzle me but I am no longer surprised by all the evil in the world. Saying that you are equally puzzled by this Avalon situation in the same context as talking about the evil Gaddafi, subtly or not so subtly will equate them in some people's minds. They are not even close to equal and any comparison between the two is a huge stretch in my opinion. In fact I think you're smart enough to know that there is no comparison so I wonder why you would lump them together so they look like they relate in any way whatsoever.


You might say you don’t want to be part of a thread that you perceive as beating beat a dead horse. Maybe from your perspective it is dead, but maybe from another’s view point it is not. But more importantly, you have the free will to choose to read a different thread.
Absolutely true, but I can be drawn to conflict, if the subject interests me, like a moth to a flame.


Is it not best to remember that Avalon is all virtual? Everyone is safe. There is no need to fear a power grab here. The rules will not be changed no matter what is discussed. So since the bottom line is that the rules cannot be changed by anyone except Bill Ryan, why would anyone object so vehemently against someone’s opinion as what I seemed to witness in this virtual opinion thread?

Of course, you, Ms V, are under no obligation to read this let alone answer it. I am just curious why you spent your valuable time reading a thread that obviously was upsetting you, but could not hurt you in any way or change how Avalon is run.
Are you saying, Mr. Blake, that virtual is not "real"? That would be a good subject for a thread. What exactly is "real"? Words have power and "the pen is mightier than the sword" upon occasion. So I don't see the argument that "virtual" does not have the power to stimulate emotions as a valid one. It would be fun to debate it. I almost never take anything personally but that's because I don't really care if someone doesn't like me or my words, so I do feel safe in this virtual world, but many people don't. In fact we have had a spate of teenage suicides in the US because the kids took the virtual world too seriously and allowed themselves to care too much what others said about them. So to many people virtual is real.

As far as spending my valuable time reading a thread which stimulates me to reply either pro or con, I am doing exactly what I want to do. Why I do certain things will likely remain a mystery. I gave up extensive self analysis as an exercise in mental masturbation a while back.


In this day and age, unfortunately, the American government can call anyone an enemy combatant that they choose. Police are often annoyed, and will even arrest Americans quoting the Federal Constitution. Those in governmental power have a real fear of the waking of the masses, and many in power feel that dissent must be suppressed. However, in the virtual world of Avalon, as I have stated before, the members have no power. They can only state their opinions. Mr. Ryan and his moderating team call all the shots. So why are they apparently so afraid of free speech on this forum?
What you have said about the American government is partially true, although since 2 of my husbands were cops I don't like to see "Police" all painted with the same broad strokes. Again you are stating a horrible fact and then mentioning Avalon in the same paragraph as though they equate. They don't.

I don't think Bill and the moderators are are at all "afraid" of free speech. They only care about the WAY people speak to others and wish to keep it fairly civil. But this forum has guidelines and is NOT a "free speech" zone. It is a moderated forum.


Why is it that many are reading threads they object to? Why not read a different thread?
I suppose some of us are fascinated with the conflict, others of us feel protective of Bill, the moderators and Avalon. Some think they are helping, some like to talk a lot, some of us are driven by our egos... and there are many other reasons why we read threads which might irritate us.

Why is it not okay for members to start a thread discussing the banning of members?
MANY threads have been discussing the banning of members and many new ones have been started. Even as a very patient mother, when my two year old started spouting the "F" word over and over I told her to STOP. The responsibility of a moderator is to keep things fairly moderate. The most patient person occasionally gets impatient with a child who keeps on whining about the SAME THING over and over and over. Relentless negativity and complaints have a vibration which can permeate even the virtual world. I can feel it and I'm sure everyone can feel it on one level or another.

I will admit, there are some threads that I will not even open when I see who starts them. I am happy for them to have the platform to discuss what they want to discuss, but I will only open threads that I have an interest in. So I am confused why so many people who apparently get upset with Chicodoodoo’s viewpoint would even open up one of his threads?
It was not Chico's viewpoint, it was his modus operandi that was tiring. He had to know that his continuous beating of the same drum would eventually wear on even the most patient and saintly person. His not so subtle impugning of Bill and Avalon was like a campaign. It was also counter productive to the energy in the forum. (in my opinion, of course)


People can talk about love and light all they want, words can be, after all very cheap. But in my opinion, until right action is shown by humans seeking to understand those they may disagree with, as long as people have fear where no real threat exists, then humans will continue to mistreat each other and this new model of society that Mr. Ryan speaks of will never come to be.

Sincerely,
Mr. Davis
Aye, there's the rub. Whose definition of right action will you use? I know...I will use mine and you will use yours. If you think you have the truth and you know the "right action" for all humans, that would be delusional. I'm not saying you do think that, but if anyone thinks they have the answers for everyone else I would be very cautious of that person. I personally do not even dwell upon the possibility of everyone living in "peace and love" here on this earth. Could it happen? Sure, anything is possible. But I don't think it will happen in my lifetime and I don't even know that this earth is supposed to be a place of love and light. Perhaps it's more about balance and we each get to choose if we will gravitate more towards the light or the dark or vacillate between the two within the gray areas.

Nancy :hug:

[ulli]

Hi Uli,

With the benefit of hindsight (20/20 vision) and with the utmost respect the point I was trying to get across was the general position of various posters on various threads coming forth with that particular take on the matter at hand. Perhaps I should have looked long and hard at some of my own posts to see if I could have used me as an example instead.

It was never intended to be construed as one particular members viewpoint but an attempt to get across a generalisation of the look and feel of some posts.

Of course anyone else can and is free to identify with any of the generalisations I made but I would consider that unfortunate because it was not my intent to single anyone out. If I had wanted to do such a thing I would have used quotes.

I humbly apologise to you and anyone else who has taken offence as it was never my intent.

From the voyeur in me to the voyeur in you....:popcorn:

so now that's been cleared up....

and this thread seems to be fizzling....

wanna go and watch another movie with me?

Alice in Wonderland?

:popcorn: :popcorn:

[sandy]

Hi Paul, please, tell me, have you read the JFK speech included in my post 127? This one:

Post #127, pag. 7. JFK speech "The President and the Press" (1961)
http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?20545-Censorship-here&p=219355&viewfull=1#post219355

Paul, do you mind telling Bill Ryan about that speech and about the 2 questions I ask him in that post?

Thanks.

If you review my first 3 posts in this thread (#14, #44, #52 in pag 1 and 3) you’ll see that I asked you a couple of questions about the Chicodoodoo incident.

Please, could you answer them? Thanks.

And in the meantime, while you think about it, I’ll ask you another question, but this one is EXTREMELLY SIMPLE to answer because it does not even require an elaborate answer from you, but just a very simple choice between the 2 following options, “a” or “b”, which are based on the JFK speech in post #127 (pag7).

Paul, please, from the following 2 options (based on the JFK speech), which option would you choose, “a” or “b”?

Option a)



Without debate, without criticism, no Administration and no country [and no Internet Forum] can succeed and no republic can survive.

I not only could not stifle controversy among your readers -- I welcome it.

This Administration [Internet Forum] intends to be candid about its errors; for as a wise man once said: "An error does not become a mistake until you refuse to correct it."

We intend to accept full responsibility for our errors and we expect you to point them out when we miss them.


Option b)



With debate, with criticism, no Administration and no country and no Internet Forum can succeed and no republic and no Internet Forum can survive.

I not only could stifle controversy among your readers -- I reject it.

This Forum does not intend to be candid about its errors; for as a wise man once said: "An error becomes a mistake when you admit it."

We do not intend to accept full responsibility for our errors and we do not expect you to point them out when we miss them.


Please, Paul, which option do you prefer, “a” or “b”?

I ask the same question to Bill Ryan, and also to the rest of the Avalon members.

Thanks.

Dear qbeac,

Love your question and my answer to your request from Avalon members is DEFINITELY " A"

[qbeac]

This forum is already set up with it's guidelines and moderators and is going along just fine for most of us. A few people want to reorganize a few thousand people and take over decision making from those who have already set it up. It would be better for those who want administrative changes to open their own forum and administrate it in the way they would like, just as Chicodoodoo was going to do, just as those at NEXUS are doing.

The only thing I see that needs to be improved is for those who love complaining about the way Avalon is moderated to either give it up as a lost cause or go elsewhere. It is the way it is. Of course it will change organically as time passes, everything changes, but if you want radical and immediate change it's most likely not going to happen here. You want a jury? Not going to happen here. You want voting? Not going to happen here. All these suggestions would entail HUGE amounts of extra work for.... guess who? Bill and the volunteer moderators! Plus there are not many who see a need for such changes. Those who want those changes are free to leave and start or search for a forum that fulfills their desires.

This is not a democracy or a meritocracy, it's a benevolent dictatorship as are the vast majority of forums on the Internet. The few that aren't are usually quite chaotic and often unpleasant for people who don't like constant conflict and complaining.

(Note: emphasis added by me in the above comment by Nancy)

Hi NancyV,

You have clarified something important when you say:



This [Avalon Forum] is not a democracy or a meritocracy, it's a benevolent dictatorship

Well, if that’s the case (and Bill Ryan should say if it is or not): Would it be necessary or appropriate to include that statement in the front page of this forum so that everybody knows it ahead of time?

(Note: I realize this is a point we could delve into, but we can do it some other time if you want)

Also, when you say:



This forum [Avalon]… is going along just fine for most of us. A few people want to reorganize a few thousand people…

My question to you is: How do you come up with that number or figure (“most of us”, “few” versus “thousands”)?

The reason why I ask is because, in my case, I could not tell “how many” persons are satisfied or not with this forum right now. I simply don’t know. But there is a way to know it for sure without having to estimate it:

A Poll.

A Poll would measure the level of satisfaction of members regarding different subjects related to the forum (depending on how the questions are designed).

And my intuition tells me (but I could be wrong) that there will probably be a significant number of persons (I am not saying the majority, but an important enough number worth taking into consideration, but I am not sure) that would probably like to debate the subject of how the forum is going along, or whether or not several improvements (Ex: checks and balances system, jury, etc.) could or should be done to it in comparison to the current situation.

For instance, at least 18 persons (the ones who thanked Chicodoodoo for starting this thread in Post #1 plus himself) would probably like to talk about this matter, and there will probably be more if the Poll was started.

In summary:

Only a Poll could tell us with more accuracy (depending on how many people participate in it) what that number is: very little, normal, big, very big… 10%, 30%, 50%, 60%, 80%... etc….???

If anybody is interested in knowing with more accuracy that number, I would encourage them to open a poll to find out.

It could be a multiple choice Poll, and its title could be, for instance (there are many more options):

Do you think this forum could be improved by a checks and balances system, jury, etc.?

[sunnyrap]

Note: I am also posting this post in the Project Camelot forum, at link:

...


Clearly and precisely... For anyone aware of what kind of positive energy chico has been bringing to this forum, the decision to simply give up on him is a definite no-go for what I'm concerned about.

You have my full support. Thanks for stepping in




Hello All,

So sorry that a man

...


Indeed, dots connecting, synthesis, humanism... Contrary to what some people, in a pretty mean fashion, have been saying, I will certainly not buy that chico was on some ego trip... His level of insights for sure did not come from some individualistic perspective.
We people need more guys like him.

Peace

I met Buckminister Fuller years ago when involved in something called 'The Los Angeles World Hunger Event'. The man captured my heart with his brilliance and deep spirituality. One of the things he told our group was that if we humans weren't failing at least 50% of the time, we were not living productively and were learning nothing. Ergo, it also follows that we should allow each other to make mistakes so that it is safe to act courageously and share what we learn from the experience.

It was also him, by the way, that instructed us that the dissenters, even the really obnoxious negative ones, were valuable to us all--because, like the grain of sand in an oyster's shell...pearls were developed.

This appears to be happening here, now doesn't it?

[ThePythonicCow]

Dear qbeac,

Love your question and my answer to your request from Avalon members is DEFINITELY " A"

There is a fundamental difference between a state and a web forum.

A state has a monopoly over its citizens, in whatever way it chooses, and is allowed, to impose its will. For example, its usually has a monopoly on the substantial use of force. If the state uses its powers to prohibit something, no one within the state can with impunity do or say that something. Therefore state power must be heavily biased toward respecting individual liberty, diversity and freedom, or else there will be intolerable violations of same.

Web forums support liberty, diversity and freedom in their multiplicity and variety, not necessarily in their internal procedures. Having a web forum that prohibits anyone joining who has -ever- used a bovine avatar does not impinge on my freedoms one wit. I just won't join them.

If I am only allowed to grow or purchase a -single- plant for food, then that plant had better have all the nutrients that I seek to obtain from the plant based portion of my diet. If I have a rich diversity of plant foods available for my consumption, then it is entirely fine by me that some of those plant foods are very specialized in their contents, perhaps even quite toxic to me personally if I have some particular allergy to them (e.g. if I had a peanut allergy.)

I absolutely would -not- mandate that all web forums support any particular form of due process or respect for freedom of speech or manner of processing errors or avoidance of any specific amount of secrecy. That is, and should remain, up to the individuals owning each web forum.

We have seen what the imposition of "public" (really corporate and TPTB, via the nation state) standards has done to our schools. God forbid we should contemplate any such tyranny over web forums.

Demanding that all web forums, or even that any particular web forum, submit to the tyranny of the majority risks being one step along this road.

I say No to that.

[Carmody]

Finding the line between constructive and destructive is a fine art.

As well, due to individuality and differing minds, thought processes, etc, we all see that point differently.

[ThePythonicCow]

It could be a multiple choice Poll, and its title could be, for instance (there are many more options):

Do you think this forum could be improved by a checks and balances system, jury, etc.?
Please don't.

A poll asking about something that is not going to happen would be yet further distraction, further stirring of the pot.

It would also be more attractive to those who don't like the way this forum is currently, than it would to those are off busy doing other things on this forum, so the results would be biased.

[sandy]

Thanks Mr. Davis.. A lot of good points here... I'd like to add that if Avalon is in anyway meant to play a role in the bettering of this world, loosing such valuable members as chico is a real drama, despite his eloquence and the vigorous faith in what he believes in. That people here feel relieved that the subject is now closed, as it means that a member who has been focusing on the greater common good is gone, doesn't match the idea that I had about the overall mentality here. It starts to feel like some kind of dogma is shaping the way ideas are received. Creativity doesn't flow, spirituality often gets mixed up with problem solving, pragmatic views. Don't forget that the ego finds its power source in what people thinks others think about them. The "group effect" feeds on that, and it takes some openness to welcome views that differ from ours.

Dissent is needed, as there is no hope for creativity if doors remain closed and if no questions are asked.

Chico deserves an apology from many already, maybe some people will see that when they go over some of his older posts. I hope so for them anyway.

Peace

Thank You buckminister and I agree with you:)

Personally I think that there is a problem with Hypocrisy versus Personal Integrity

By this I mean: Avalons' new direction is one of positive energy etc, so in reality>>>>>>>>does one role model this or do they create dissent by there very own actions of censorship, banning etc thus feeding the negative or so labeled thread and or poster> I say stop blaming, labeling, directing to one way of being and on and on and practice what you preach.

[andywight]

Chico, hope you don't mind me posting this here, PM me if you want me to delete.


== Post edited ,please abstain from qouting posts from other forums ==

THANKS

Am I the only member here that thinks it's a little ironic that my first ever post to be censored is on a thread called "Censorship here?" :tape:

[ThePythonicCow]

Thank You buckminister and I agree with you:)

Personally I think that there is a problem with Hypocrisy versus Personal Integrity

By this I mean: Avalons' new direction is one of positive energy etc, so in reality>>>>>>>>does one role model this or do they create dissent by there very own actions of censorship, banning etc thus feeding the negative or so labeled thread and or poster> I say stop blaming, labeling, directing to one way of being and on and on and practice what you preach.

Sometimes an artist who is reaching the height of their creative expression will be manically obsessive about certain details of their daily routine or equipment. Is this hypocrisy?

I think not.

I personally am quite familiar with creating new computer software concepts and bringing them to realization. I was and remain rather obsessive about certain details of how I organize, process and manage the software I create. Is this hypocrisy?

I think not.

This forum is a tool for supporting its members and its founders purpose. Do not confuse the tool with the ultimate purpose.

[Jeffrey]

I understand Paul. I am new to forums. I am somewhat of an idealist and trying to find pragmatic solution for these types of situations isn't easy. I'm not certain it's even possible. Everybody can't be pleased all of the time. I appreciate what you all do and I am happy to be here. I do like discussions like this though, if anything they can act as a pressure valve for concerns of the like. I, however, am an implacable optimist. I can empathize how this thread may seem to undermine the responsibilities of the moderators, and that our faculties of reason could be used to further investigate more worthy endeavors. I am not trying to be political here; I just enjoy stretching my perception to encompass views outside of my own. Life on earth is about, among other things, change, expansion, and growth. I am trying my best.

Much Love and Thanks,

Vivek

[3optic]

It could be a multiple choice Poll, and its title could be, for instance (there are many more options):

Do you think this forum could be improved by a checks and balances system, jury, etc.?
Please don't.

A poll asking about something that is not going to happen would be yet further distraction, further stirring of the pot.

It would also be more attractive to those who don't like the way this forum is currently, than it would to those are off busy doing other things on this forum, so the results would be biased.

I vote no. Good grief.

[qbeac]

It could be a multiple choice Poll, and its title could be, for instance (there are many more options):

Do you think this forum could be improved by a checks and balances system, jury, etc.?
Please don't.

A poll asking about something that is not going to happen would be yet further distraction, further stirring of the pot.

It would also be more attractive to those who don't like the way this forum is currently, than it would to those are off busy doing other things on this forum, so the results would be biased.

(Note: emphasis added by me in the above comment by Paul)

Hi Paul, do you mean that you are against anybody opening that Poll in Avalon?

We already talked in this forum about what Polls do back in January-February-11 when the famous Charles’ Poll was conducted.

Polls are just “instruments” to gather data.

And you can gather many different types of data depending on how the Poll’s questions are written.

Polls are also more accurate than a simple “estimation” (as NancyV has done: “most” of us, “few” versus “thousand”).

And if anybody thinks a particular Poll is not well designed, or if it is not gathering the right data, he/she can always start his/her own Poll, designed his/her own way, to gather the data of his/her own choosing.

Btw, is there any guideline in Avalon against opening Polls?

Can you tell us which specific guideline is it? (Note: I don’t remember any forum with a prohibition for opening polls)

In any case, Paul, do you mind if I post your post in the Project Camelot forum?

The reason why I ask is because I would like to ask people over there what they think about Polls, if they think Polls could be useful or not to gather data we are not sure about, or if they think we should be afraid of finding out Poll’s results or not, etc.

Thanks.

[FrankoL]

How is one chosen to be a moderator for the forum?
Much Love and Thanks,

Vivek

This is a good question. A lot of feathers is required (hahaha). Funny thing is how they end.... naked, no feathers left
P.S:
(please forgive me, but I couldn’t resist)

[ThePythonicCow]

I should have stated more clearly that my "Please don't" was in response to the poll I quoted, with your suggested Title of "Do you think this forum could be improved by a checks and balances system, jury, etc.?" Such a title, in my view, suggested that that question was open for consideration, and that the results of the poll might influence the decision of whether to attempt such a change in our forum procedures. To the best of my knowledge and as other mods have clearly and repeatedly stated within the last day, no such changes to forum procedures are being contemplated.

Yes, polls are held. No, I do not recall any guidelines specific to polls.

Whether or not I object to your quoting me on Project Camelot is immaterial.

I am not afraid of such a poll's results. Bill will continue to decide such matters; not I, not you and not a poll. I do find the continued effort to find various ways to raise the same complaints, in various forms (such as polls in this instance) to be a mixed bag. Some good thoughts get posted on the topic, but it is also a distraction from the real purposes of this site, in my view.

Before posting such a poll, as with any thread, I would ask that you be clear on your purpose. If such a poll looked to me like just another way to continue raising the same complaints that have already been raised, repeatedly, then you would be right in suspecting that I would not be enthusiastic. I and the rest of the mods would do our best to treat that poll, and any such thread or post re-raising these complaints, in a fair and proper manner. You might not agree with what that entailed, and we might be imperfect in our determinations.

[Jeffrey]

One more thought...

I think part of the concern is people thinking twice about voicing their opinions in the future. The, "what if I'm next" type of mentality. Similar to the, "anybody could be a terrorist" mentality in the world right now. This is fear disguised as rationality. Trust has been damaged for some here, and pride may be the culprit hindering reconciliation.

"Everyone genuinely thinks they are right and doing the right thing—that is everyone without exception is acting for the best." -From the Relationship Thread

This is a stalemate, and it looks as if this could turn into a stale thread. The members that were banned were part of this community; they had a voice here, they have friends here. Some of our members here at Avalon seem to be wounded; Avalon's image may have become disenchanted for them. We are picking at the scab now. Who's got a bandage? I'm beginning to think that if this discussion has any merit, it's fruition is not for this time, and maybe not for this place. Let's practice what we believe in and forgive (this entails a willingness to move on).

“To forgive is to set a prisoner free and discover that the prisoner was you.” -Lewis B. Smedes

This is a great place. There will be rainy days and storms, but that's what makes the grass grow greener. I will not post on this thread again unless I am thoughtfully engaged by another to do so. It is not my wish that a mindful debate turn into a prating dialogue arguing quixotic dispositions against practicalities. Although that would make a good thread in itself save the prating. ;)

Much Love and Thanks,

Vivek

[NancyV]

Hi NancyV,

You have clarified something important when you say:


This [Avalon Forum] is not a democracy or a meritocracy, it's a benevolent dictatorship

Well, if that’s the case (and Bill Ryan should say if it is or not): Would it be necessary or appropriate to include that statement in the front page of this forum so that everybody knows it ahead of time?
Nope, it would not be necessary or appropriate for Bill to have to put MY words "benevolent dictatorship" on the front page of the forum. Do you really think it would be productive for us to ask Bill to either agree or disagree with any verbiage that happens to push our individual buttons because we have chosen to see a negative connotation?

Bill has described this forum many times in many posts in HIS words and he has NEVER used the word I used. I consider any forum that is owned by one or two people with a hierarchical structure of staff to be a type of dictatorship, hopefully it is always a benevolent dictatorship as I consider Avalon to be. Every forum I have been a moderator on was a dictatorship (of a kind). If you have a problem with the word "dictator" because of the possible negative connotations, that sounds like a personal reaction to me.

There are negative connotations to that word and it can also mean a person who has control of an organization, company, government, or forum and who "dictates" the terms. In my family I was a dictator to my children. But like I said, you are apparently thinking of it as a negative. That's fine. I happen to LOVE benevolent dictatorships when it comes to forums. I think it's a much better and more efficient structure than a democracy. Forums are not governments and need to be run efficiently.

[sandy]

Thank You buckminister and I agree with you:)

Personally I think that there is a problem with Hypocrisy versus Personal Integrity

By this I mean: Avalons' new direction is one of positive energy etc, so in reality>>>>>>>>does one role model this or do they create dissent by there very own actions of censorship, banning etc thus feeding the negative or so labeled thread and or poster> I say stop blaming, labeling, directing to one way of being and on and on and practice what you preach.

Sometimes an artist who is reaching the height of their creative expression will be manically obsessive about certain details of their daily routine or equipment. Is this hypocrisy?

I think not.

I personally am quite familiar with creating new computer software concepts and bringing them to realization. I was and remain rather obsessive about certain details of how I organize, process and manage the software I create. Is this hypocrisy?

I think not.

This forum is a tool for supporting its members and its founders purpose. Do not confuse the tool with the ultimate purpose.

Dear Paul,

I'm sorry but you have lost me there, I have no clue as to what you are trying to say. To me hypocrisy means saying one thing and doing the another. I understand there needs to be rules and or guidelines and they have been stated for this new direction. However it appears to me that this new direction which is to be positive in nature, has often been overlooked, when one is saying something about what they believe and may not be positively copacetic with how the plan is being administered.

When I owned my own Human Resources Consulting Firm I took great pains (and sometimes it was just that) to ensure that my actions where true to my stated company mission and direction. Often that meant admitting when I was wrong, made a mistake, apologizing individually and publicly and or transparent reasons for taking a stand, etc. However for the most part all issues were given to the team of staff members to sort out and I trusted them. They always came up with the solution to the problem after dissension of course, but what a tight team they were in the end had a greater sense of belonging and community inside and outside of the workplace.

One might want to revisit the stated new direction when responding to what is deemed negative and or not on the mission of the new direction. Thus, one might want to take the new direction approach of positive encouragement to find a possible solution or alternative to a proposed problem. What I see instead is when one cannot be talked into changing their mind and become positive oriented and drop their issue, they are then given warning to cease and desist this way of thinking or they will be deactivated and or ask to leave.

For the life of me I cannot figure out how these actions which go against the new direction make any sense. Thus again I have to say the new direction and the actions to make this plan come to fruition are hypocritical.

I don't have a fancy vocabulary and seldom use analogies, book references, quotes, etc, to explain where I'm coming from as I find semantics can just be another way to dodge the issue being discussed>>>>Hypocrisy versus Integrity and actions to achieve the new direction. There are many highly intellectual and academic members here on Avalon as well as spiritual. Yet most threads are mind and spiritual candy, sweet to the ego and scarcity for the heart.

Where is the heart of Avalon? Only a few threads here really feed the heart and that is what is needed the most IMHO:)

I do not agree with how the new direction is being played out so don't often say too much about it. I do enjoy learning and also have engaged myself in Wade Frazier's thread regarding FE, which has the most possibility in my mind to actually achieving a world free from slavery, full of abundance and which could bring about the ideal of a positive society. There is great learning in his writings and I would say that many of today's systems paradigm is integrally apart of what is happening here at Avalon at an unconscious level. Don't see too many members partaking there though (as he has lots of real world experience and wisdom is spiritually astute, shares from the heart and has valuable info to share and not debate), and wonder what is up with that??

Far be it for me to say what is right or wrong for anyone else, thus I speak for only myself, therefore I may be out to lunch for some and beating a dead horse, as I have heard said before so I will drop it.

[ThePythonicCow]

I'm sorry but you have lost me there, I have no clue as to what you are trying to say.
Ok - I'll accept that. I sometimes speak in riddles.

I agree that Wade Frazier is doing some wonderful work on his thread. I read it frequently, even though I seldom post there.

I doubt you were out to lunch, sandy, even though we are likely rather different people both in temperament and experiences.

I too shall leave it rest. Take care.

[buckminster fuller]

I'm sorry but you have lost me there, I have no clue as to what you are trying to say.
Ok - I'll accept that. I sometimes speak in riddles.

I agree that Wade Frazier is doing some wonderful work on his thread. I read it frequently, even though I seldom post there.

I doubt you were out to lunch, sandy, even though we are likely rather different people both in temperament and experiences.

I too shall leave it rest. Take care.

Well, get some rest paul, and please when you come back, try to find the time to answer... here :


Hi Paul, please, tell me, have you read the JFK speech included in my post 127? This one:

Post #127, pag. 7. JFK speech "The President and the Press" (1961)
http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?20545-Censorship-here&p=219355&viewfull=1#post219355

Paul, do you mind telling Bill Ryan about that speech and about the 2 questions I ask him in that post?

Thanks.

If you review my first 3 posts in this thread (#14, #44, #52 in pag 1 and 3) you’ll see that I asked you a couple of questions about the Chicodoodoo incident.

Please, could you answer them? Thanks.

And in the meantime, while you think about it, I’ll ask you another question, but this one is EXTREMELLY SIMPLE to answer because it does not even require an elaborate answer from you, but just a very simple choice between the 2 following options, “a” or “b”, which are based on the JFK speech in post #127 (pag7).

Paul, please, from the following 2 options (based on the JFK speech), which option would you choose, “a” or “b”?

Option a)



Without debate, without criticism, no Administration and no country [and no Internet Forum] can succeed and no republic can survive.

I not only could not stifle controversy among your readers -- I welcome it.

This Administration [Internet Forum] intends to be candid about its errors; for as a wise man once said: "An error does not become a mistake until you refuse to correct it."

We intend to accept full responsibility for our errors and we expect you to point them out when we miss them.


Option b)



With debate, with criticism, no Administration and no country and no Internet Forum can succeed and no republic and no Internet Forum can survive.

I not only could stifle controversy among your readers -- I reject it.

This Forum does not intend to be candid about its errors; for as a wise man once said: "An error becomes a mistake when you admit it."

We do not intend to accept full responsibility for our errors and we do not expect you to point them out when we miss them.


Please, Paul, which option do you prefer, “a” or “b”?

I ask the same question to Bill Ryan, and also to the rest of the Avalon members.

Thanks.

There too :




~*&^~*&^~*&^~*&^~*&^~*&^~*&^~*&^~*&^~*&^~*&^~*&^~*&^~
Limor (mod hat on/off red,green and with a feather...as you wish)
~*&^~*&^~*&^~*&^~*&^~*&^~*&^~*&^~*&^~*&^~*&^~*&^

I loved your post, it was sensible and well thought out, but you know we're going to have to get you a feathery mod hat now :P

I don't know if mods cut the referred post or if Seikou-kishi did it but let me tell you: the cut is way too short. I don't know what the previous topic is about at all and have to refer to the original post to understand (brain can retain 7 posts at a time - 7 items). Then I loose the post I was at when I referred to the previous post.

result: I get discourage and cannot follow the thread - Is that the purpose????

Overdoing it is overdoing it. Buckminster fuller could not be read anylonger either.

Please, if the target is us to stop reading, good, let us know. If not, let the meat of referred posts be shown. Thanks

and this holds for whomever cut the references.

thanks

ps ok I was at 185 now I have to go back. Worst than parking spots, where did I park? Have to remember! Same when I have to go back to previous posts in order to understand what the author of the new post refers to. Lots of parking today. I think I lost my car!

It start to feel like I'm already in 5D and you can't see me anymore :)

Peace

[Lord Sidious]

Chico, hope you don't mind me posting this here, PM me if you want me to delete.


== Post edited ,please abstain from qouting posts from other forums ==

THANKS

Am I the only member here that thinks it's a little ironic that my first ever post to be censored is on a thread called "Censorship here?" :tape:

Come on, don't insult our intelligence here.
You post on nexus and you know what the deal is between the two forums.
You weren't surprised that your quotes were deleted, I wasn't.
And this doesn't help the ''rift'' between the two groups.
I too have friends there, but you don't see me there, do ya?
I have foes there too and I don't wanna go into someone elses forum and be a troublemaker, because I would kick off on them quickly.
So please, don't mess around, you may have some valid points, don't dilute them with :bs:

[Ilie Pandia]

The censorship threads are almost funny!

Everybody knows full well, before they apply for membership, that this is a moderated forum.

While I would say there are some differences between censorship and moderation let's assume that they are the same thing here (just for the sake of argument).

So Yes! This is a censored (moderated) forum! :) Now... do you see the funny side of creating those threads?

While I hope that in the future (when we will be more in harmony and learn to accept our differences better) there will be no need for moderators/censorship and the forum will be open to anybody.... we are not there yet!

And now... some final words:

7441 :censored::frusty:

Oh well.... :to_pick_ones_nose:

PS: I want to get to 1,500 Thanks by the end of this month... so any help would be highly appreciated! (Thanks a bunch!) :rolleyes:

[9eagle9]

Things I know to be true.

I have never been in a forum that didn't gripe about moderation.

I have never been in a forum that had moderation present that didn't gripe about censorship.

Moderation is never moderate enough. ...or.....

Moderation is too moderate.

I have noticed those who gripe about censorship and moderation are the first ones to report you when you step on their toes. (lol)

I have also noticed that un-moderated forums are always screaming for moderation.

If one is putting their best judgment at the mercy of others then ....you've given your best judgment to the mercy of others. Oops.

And some people have the ability to lethally insult other forum members without overtly crossing the line moderation has drawn in the sand. Indeed if one gets good at it the insulted parties in their confusion will thank you for the insult. So will moderation (laff)

My friend has a writing forum that assigned moderation. A working forum so our work wasn't disrupted by personal issues. The moderators were not known to the body of the forum. So the threads that moderation deemed off topic or intrusive was moved to the flame area without anyone knowing how they got there.Other members were free to go in there and flame along or observe. Those who wanted to drag it back into the forum were patiently removed back to the flame area. However there was no one to blame because no one knew who moderation was. . No one knew who moderation was and they weren't censored-- just moved. There they could continue to work out their issues, or arguments. After a while the flame burned out .

Or a thread was started about speculating who the moderators were that seemed to tie up most of the time and interest of the most intrusive.

[Lord Sidious]

Things I know to be true.

I have never been in a forum that didn't gripe about moderation.

I have never been in a forum that had moderation present that didn't gripe about censorship.

Moderation is never moderate enough. ...or.....

Moderation is too moderate.

I have noticed those who gripe about censorship and moderation are the first ones to report you when you step on their toes. (lol)

I have also noticed that un-moderated forums are always screaming for moderation.

If one is putting their best judgment at the mercy of others then ....you've given your best judgment to the mercy of others. Oops.

And some people have the ability to lethally insult other forum members without overtly crossing the line moderation has drawn in the sand. Indeed if one gets good at it the insulted parties in their confusion will thank you for the insult. So will moderation (laff)

My friend has a writing forum that assigned moderation. A working forum so our work wasn't disrupted by personal issues. The moderators were not known to the body of the forum. So the threads that moderation deemed off topic or intrusive was moved to the flame area without anyone knowing how they got there.Other members were free to go in there and flame along or observe. Those who wanted to drag it back into the forum were patiently removed back to the flame area. However there was no one to blame because no one knew who moderation was. . No one knew who moderation was and they weren't censored-- just moved. There they could continue to work out their issues, or arguments. After a while the flame burned out .

Or a thread was started about speculating who the moderators were that seemed to tie up most of the time and interest of the most intrusive.

Moderating the forum is like walking a tight rope over the Grand Canyon, mess it up either way and you are cactus.
Do I expect the staff to make mistakes?
Yes, I do, because they aren't perfect, like the rest of us.
It isn't the mistakes that matter, it is how they are fixed that count.
I learnt a lot about the quality of the team here during the epic thread I had going last week.
I am happy to report they have my confidence and admiration.
Check my friends list, I got em all, as a sign of respect for em.

[Jake]

Things I know to be true.

I have never been in a forum that didn't gripe about moderation.

I have never been in a forum that had moderation present that didn't gripe about censorship.

Moderation is never moderate enough. ...or.....

Moderation is too moderate.

I have noticed those who gripe about censorship and moderation are the first ones to report you when you step on their toes. (lol)

I have also noticed that un-moderated forums are always screaming for moderation.

If one is putting their best judgment at the mercy of others then ....you've given your best judgment to the mercy of others. Oops.

And some people have the ability to lethally insult other forum members without overtly crossing the line moderation has drawn in the sand. Indeed if one gets good at it the insulted parties in their confusion will thank you for the insult. So will moderation (laff)

My friend has a writing forum that assigned moderation. A working forum so our work wasn't disrupted by personal issues. The moderators were not known to the body of the forum. So the threads that moderation deemed off topic or intrusive was moved to the flame area without anyone knowing how they got there.Other members were free to go in there and flame along or observe. Those who wanted to drag it back into the forum were patiently removed back to the flame area. However there was no one to blame because no one knew who moderation was. . No one knew who moderation was and they weren't censored-- just moved. There they could continue to work out their issues, or arguments. After a while the flame burned out .

Or a thread was started about speculating who the moderators were that seemed to tie up most of the time and interest of the most intrusive.

9eagle9, Thank you for your comments. I was wondering when someone was going to make these types of observations. The issue of Moderation vs Censorship is not new to usergroups and newsgroups and forums. There are lots of good discussions on the issue and some good articles too. here is one... http://www.natcom.org/CommCurrentsArticle.aspx?id=886 The ideal scenerio would be for folks to try and moderate themselves, which most people do anyways. The simple act of merging threads to stay on topic, may cause several people who posted there to call 'censorship'. Does that make it true? NO. Should the person crying 'foul' be banned? NO. However, That person will need to understand that once his/her convictions are made public, and they have made their point, that they should move on. This particular forum was not founded to give anyone and everyone a platform for free speach. We have topical discussions bringing to light the kind of information that Bill and Project Avalon has brought to the table. If certain discussions are off topic it is the job of the moderator to determine that and act accordingly. If at some point a member decides that they are going to post off topic discussions consistently, while screaming censorship, then perhaps that person has misunderstood the spirit of a moderated forum. A good moderating team (and that is what we are) will not make decisions without thoroughly examining all sides of the issue. (Which is what we do.) It is not just a debate we are having at Avalon. Best regards Jake.

[Carmody]

Yes, the vehicle is driving somewhere. it is aimed at a space, a location, a moving target. This is important to remember.

And at times we all suffer the urge to grab the wheel and make corrections. The moment we (individually) 'attempt' to put our hands on the wheel... if we don't realize that everyone else is looking at us and hoping we have the discernment to realize what we are standing up to do....then.... we have a problem.

A problem for the rest of us that are on the given vehicle.

[truthseekerdan]

And now... some final words:

7441 :censored::frusty:

Oh well.... :to_pick_ones_nose:

PS: I want to get to 1,500 Thanks by the end of this month... so any help would be highly appreciated! (Thanks a bunch!) :rolleyes:

Perhaps you may want to tame your desires and do some reading on this thread... :rolleyes:

http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?860-Enlightenment-The-Ego-what-is-it-How-to-transcend-it.

;)

[mondaze]

it is what it is accept that and move on. moderate what you say yourself.