Does karma from past lives make sense?

[Omni]

I for one do not agree karma from past lives makes sense. Maybe I'm wrong, and I welcome any intelligent perspectives that may change my opinion(or agree with my opinion). All perspective are welcome.

I feel DNA, conditioning, experiences, and so on effect who we are and what we do. We are maleable a bit. We are not our soul only.

Why should we be punished for something that is just as much if not more of a product of our environment as is our own soul's doing? And do we really learn anything from being punished for something in a past life?

Does the soul grow when it's punished?

Also, body intelligence. If what Inelia says about body intelligence is true(which I don't know all she says about it), would you recieve karma for both your soul, and body intelligence's past lives? Or does the BI not have karma...


I think we can be completely different people given the external-from-soul variables we are subjected to and are affected by from life to life. And for this, to me, karma does not make sense being implemented from past lives. It would be like being punished for someone else's actions in a way IMHO.

Does it make sense to punish someone in their next life for being confused or abused to levels of abusing others? Does it make sense to punish someone for being born the way they are? Or turning into a sour evil person because their DNA or traumatic experiences and so on?

Often people who are abused end up abusing others(not always). So basically with karma from past lives it appears one would be punished for being abused and having the system that makes the abused become the abuser as is the case.


I personally don't see the logic in karma from past lives. Now I am not saying I know my own opinion is reality. I have no clue if it is or not. Just my surface examination points to karma not existing in the forms people think it does as I have faith that the mechanics of the universe are as perfect as they could be given the diversity we have around.

To me, karma for past lives does not make sense. Feel free to point out where I'm going wrong(or right). Your thoughts?

[Tony]

Karma is our habitual patterns, which we acquire. That is turn becomes a personality. These habitual patterns keep us going round in circles.
It is unnecessary software that is clogging up pure perception. So we suffer....Oi do we suffer!

[greybeard]

As far as I understand the The Buddha taught freedom from suffering.
Only the ego can suffer - so to speak.
To be more accurate Identification with the ego story of me creates the potential for suffering.


Chris

[Tony]

The first noble truth was to recognise suffering.

[siggy]

To me Karma makes perfect sense and is logical.
Essentially (in my mind) it's cause and effect; everything which you have done or experienced in your life up to now has formed who you are now, how you think, how you react, etc - so the past effects who you are now.
Now the rub is that you can choose who you'll be (think, react) in the future - so you have free will - but, your past experiences will determine this decision. :)

Mind blowing when you really think about it!

Now quantum physics / effects might have some role in this - I haven't really given it much thought, but - maybe those thoughts and decisions we all make and that are 'out of character' are quantum events which allow us to evolve outside of our karma path!?!?!?

The fact that karma affects your next lives, again, seems logical to me as long as one believes that all lives are one and that we are all one, single consciousness. Then there is no separation between lives, just a continuation of learning & experiencing in order to, finally, reaching understanding and enlightenment, god consciousness, call it what you will.

Anyway, that's my take on it for what its worth :)

[greybeard]

Being born a human is a karmic event, one meaning of Karma being action.
The word does not necessarily translate into English that well.
There are consequences for every action.
The action does not cause specific consequences but sets up potential for the inevitable consequences.
You could say there is no past life but a continuum of life.

The mystics say that the whole purpose of incarnation here is to escape the wheel of Karma, realize one true self = enlightenment.
Then there is no Karma to bring one back.
When ones action is surrendered to God then there is no Karma.

One is responsible for the effort-- giving it our best effort but the end result being surrendered has no Karmic (personal) consequence.
I cant speak for the Buddhist take on this but that is the enlightened Indian sage typical teaching.

Chris

Chris

[Tony]

The very same!!!!!!!!

[elysian]

Be do have.

We are human beings.

As we be, we do, that we get.

<3
Namaste

[aranuk]

I posted something last week I think some thread. I'll see if I can find it.

Stan

[Teakai]

My take on karma is that it isn't about punishment, but about understanding a situation from another perspective. For instance - if you abandoned someone in a particular life, in order to understand the full spectrum spiritually you will choose to experience being the one abandoned. Once you have got that experience learned you will have that knowledge under your belt and will be unlikely to repeat that behaviour in future incarnations.
To me it's all about being a well rounded being and that means having the experiences required to make that happen.

No comment on body intelligence- apart from having read that people having received donor transplants have been known to take on the likes and dislikes of the donor.

[aranuk]

I found it. here it is.

Timeline Manifestation and me

Anno I can see what you mean here. I've pondered that also and I didn't get very far in my reasoning. I don't want to change the subject but I also have questioned my own belief system of re-incarnation and karma. I've read hundreds of Rudolf Steiner books which explains all the intricacies of karma and re-incarnation, but the thing that puzzles my wee brain is why, why do we HAVE to forget where we came from (spiritual plane). Blind man's buff was never a favorite of mine as a child. But entering this life without any memory of where we came from seems to me a childish invention, although I have been told by many a guru that this is the rules. How does blundering away in the dark all your life and eventually managing somehow to pay your karmic debts and whilst you are doing this in an unconscious way benefit our soul when we get back to the spiritual realm. Do we congratulate each other souls as having done so well, when in fact we are neither conscious of what we were doing. I think that this dear Anno may involve the merging of both my question and yours. Does this make any sense? I will speak more later.

Stan

[greybeard]

Hi aranuk
I think we dont have memory of past life because if we did there would be the temptation to "work the system"
We would do things for all the wrong reasons, just to get the escape ticket.
Does that make sense?
The thought just came in answer to your post, I never really questioned it before.

Regards Chris

[aranuk]

Say for example that I betray someone badly when they are in need of a friend to support them and let them down. Now there are two possibilities here. Either I have committed a treachery on that person and I will at a later time or a later life will experience the same misfortune. Or I was in an earlier life betrayed by that same soul and so I am really paying back the misdeed by agreement. How do we know for sure that our actions are correct. If by agreement I am destined to pay the other back with the betrayal then THAT action WAS correct. It's very complicated when you start questioning it really.:eek:


Stan

[siggy]

If we knew all our past lives, wouldn't we know the one before the 1st incarnation (god) and so be all knowing god?
Or, maybe it'd just be too much for our feable human minds to cope with?
I hadn't really thought about this (non-remberance of past lives) before, hmmmm....

[aranuk]

Hi aranuk
I think we dont have memory of past life because if we did there would be the temptation to "work the system"
We would do things for all the wrong reasons, just to get the escape ticket.
Does that make sense?
The thought just came in answer to your post, I never really questioned it before.

Regards Chris

Chris Honestly I have believed in Karma and re-incarnation since I was 11 when I started zen. If we don't know what we aught to be doing then we cannot possibly avoid doing it. As far as I understood it, our Higher Self guides us to do it in the most innocuous little ways. The way I used to think was that if we look at our past life in this life I mean and at the crossroads where we went this way or that way it is extremely likely that it was a little "innocent" action that kept us on the right track. This is a fascinating subject, I'm loving it!

Stan

[Ian Gordon]

Karma, an explanation which resonates with me was given roughly as, yes we have stages to pass through to gain enlightenment, in each of these stages we have personal lessons to learn. If we error we will be given another bash, with a clean slate (hence no memory). As we pass through each cycle we will touch others on there journeys as we will receive help from the people and events that touch us. Some of these stages will be easier than others and our events in one cycle will impact on our journey next time (which timeline perhaps we start on, just a sudden thought). Whilst we have no memory of a previous life we do take forward the lessons learnt (we have all come across those older, wiser than there years). Hence our trials and tribulations are our teachers and guides, fear nothing embrace everything..........just one of many views, However one thought is, it is not the detail that matters it is the journey and we all have our own path so perhaps the answer is individual depending on what stage your are at.

[Teakai]

Say for example that I betray someone badly when they are in need of a friend to support them and let them down. Now there are two possibilities here. Either I have committed a treachery on that person and I will at a later time or a later life will experience the same misfortune. Or I was in an earlier life betrayed by that same soul and so I am really paying back the misdeed by agreement. How do we know for sure that our actions are correct. If by agreement I am destined to pay the other back with the betrayal then THAT action WAS correct. It's very complicated when you start questioning it really.:eek:


Stan

I think to follow one's heart is the best way.

Which is not the same thing as following one's ego desire.

Which is why expanding our consciousness beyond the smallness of ego identification helps. It will allow us to guide ourselves to our soul planned outcome.
This western reality does all it can to keep us in ego identification.

Which might explain why some souls choose to be born in less 'developed' places. It might not have the mod cons - but it might be a much more effective, faster moving soul lesson without the mod con distractions keeping one constantly focused in ego interests and powerful illusion. Just musing there :)

[Teakai]

I found it. here it is.

Timeline Manifestation and me

Anno I can see what you mean here. I've pondered that also and I didn't get very far in my reasoning. I don't want to change the subject but I also have questioned my own belief system of re-incarnation and karma. I've read hundreds of Rudolf Steiner books which explains all the intricacies of karma and re-incarnation, but the thing that puzzles my wee brain is why, why do we HAVE to forget where we came from (spiritual plane). Blind man's buff was never a favorite of mine as a child. But entering this life without any memory of where we came from seems to me a childish invention, although I have been told by many a guru that this is the rules. How does blundering away in the dark all your life and eventually managing somehow to pay your karmic debts and whilst you are doing this in an unconscious way benefit our soul when we get back to the spiritual realm. Do we congratulate each other souls as having done so well, when in fact we are neither conscious of what we were doing. I think that this dear Anno may involve the merging of both my question and yours. Does this make any sense? I will speak more later.

Stan

Because most of us just wouldn't want to be here.

People who have had to return from near death experiences have been majorly depressed at having to come back.

But, I sould say, just in case to anyone who might be inclined, don't kill yourself to get back there - you'd totally regret it if you did. People who have committed suicide have regretted doing so immediately - because from the soul persepctive they see the whole picture and what they had planned - and suicide just screwed it all up and let others they had agreements with down as well.
Just know that you have picked this life for a purpose - and know that at the end of the trip you get to go home again.

The reason why we don't remember our past lives is because they are totally irrelevant to this life - except for what we learned spiritually from them - and that we always carry with us - we just have to connect to ourself as best we can at this level of existence.

[aranuk]

A wee story about Karma now. My dad and I were driving through a part of Edinburgh many years ago. We were discussing Karma. He hadn't heard the word karma but he knew the subject well enough! He called it the Law of Retribution and Exchange. Anyway we "happened" to pass a wee cottage on the left. My dad said that he fell in love with a young woman after the war before he met my mum. She seemed to be in love with him too. He was invited to tea to meet the girls mother. Later when the room was quiet a wee mouse ran across the hearth and the two women started to blush with embarrassment. In their universe that meant they didn't keep a clean house.(which isn't true at all) The mother and daughter couldn't get my dad out soon enough. The girl agreed to meet the old man on Friday evening but didn't show up. My dad met my mother to be that night and I think I may have been conceived that night. My dad said he often thought that wee mouse was me in another life. Here again the innoccuous.

Stan

PS That wee cottage we passed was the same one that girl lived in.

[Teakai]

Chris Honestly I have believed in Karma and re-incarnation since I was 11 when I started zen. If we don't know what we aught to be doing then we cannot possibly avoid doing it. As far as I understood it, our Higher Self guides us to do it in the most innocuous little ways. The way I used to think was that if we look at our past life in this life I mean and at the crossroads where we went this way or that way it is extremely likely that it was a little "innocent" action that kept us on the right track. This is a fascinating subject, I'm loving it!

Stan

If we listen to our gut, or our heart/conscience - we are more likley to be kept on the path we chose. But people have totally messed up and have done things that they later regret.

We don't suddenly become something or someone else when we die. We just shed the earthly body and regain our memory and as such have a whole new perspective.

And there are those souls who have done really hurtful things to others while following the ego rather than their heart who will feel so ashamed of what they have done.

But everything is forgivable in soul. This is a learning place - and even the most failed lesson can have value if we allow ourselves to learn from it.

I think this is a fascinating subject, too :)
Have you read michael newton's book? Best books ever!

Not deliberatly singling you out, Aranuk - but you're saying the interesting stuff that's inspiring me to return comment :)

[aranuk]

Please don't get me wrong. I still think Karma and Re-incarnation is a reality. I could write a huge list of reasons that have been given and I have convinced a lot of people the same. We are really making an inquiry here as an exercise as I am certain all the posters above feel and think and believe the same. It is healthy I think to question our most held opinions at times, it sometimes increases our beliefs in the matters. At least we may be able to look at the tree from another perspective and although the picture does change the reality is still the same. But it sure widens the picture to cinemascope.

Stan

[aranuk]

I have read far too many books on it. But now is the time for me to think for myself about it all. A different perspective entirely.

Stan

[Teakai]

As a matter of interest. (and not directed at you Aranuk -( I just saw your reply in regard to books and felt i should be clear that this isn't aimed at you) :) )

One thing I found really cool is that, while this earthly life seems to us to be quite long - assuming you live to a ripe old age is that from the perspective of those in your soul group you are gone in the time it might take to go to the corner store and get some milk and then return.

Some people are inclined ot think that reincarnation works in that you die and immediately you return into another body. I thought it worked a bit like that at one time. Seems like a bit of a nightmare now that I think about it.

According to the clients of Michael Newton - this isn't at all the case. The real reality is our spiritual home - (we call it spiritual from the human perspective)

This life doesn't happen wily nily - from a soul perspective we lay a plan for that which we wish to learn and/or help others to learn. We choose our bodies, we choose our parents, we choose the details and the signposts and then we do it.

At the end of each incarnation we are for the most part answerable to ourselves. Did we achieve that which we set out to acheive? The thing that is the most important thing to all souls is not your job, or your bank account or what car you drove or how successful you were in your career, but how you treated others. The kindness you gave and the love you felt.

I make this connection to the greatest commandment of Jesus being: To love the lord 'YOUR' god (to me that is the part of you that is soul) and to love others as you love yourself.

It's getting late and possibly I'm just raving now - but just thought I'd share that :)

[Teakai]

The first noble truth was to recognise suffering.

Just being in a body is suffering to a certain extent. Like being a bird in a cage.

[Omni]

The fact that karma affects your next lives, again, seems logical to me as long as one believes that all lives are one and that we are all one, single consciousness. Then there is no separation between lives, just a continuation of learning & experiencing in order to, finally, reaching understanding and enlightenment, god consciousness, call it what you will.

Anyway, that's my take on it for what its worth :)

I think we are all one, but also one in ourselves as well. I am not fully integrated with the sociopaths running this world. I am one with them in ways, but other ways I am very NOT one with them. We are very differing personages.


My take on karma is that it isn't about punishment, but about understanding a situation from another perspective. For instance - if you abandoned someone in a particular life, in order to understand the full spectrum spiritually you will choose to experience being the one abandoned. Once you have got that experience learned you will have that knowledge under your belt and will be unlikely to repeat that behaviour in future incarnations.
To me it's all about being a well rounded being and that means having the experiences required to make that happen.

No comment on body intelligence- apart from having read that people having received donor transplants have been known to take on the likes and dislikes of the donor.

I like your take on karma. It's a subject I am in my infancy about in terms of learning the knowledge out there to be honest(better with this thread, glad I decided to make it). I do know my initial belief on it was it exists... But I lost that.

They were making me focus(my mind controllers) on the aspect of karma being a punishment, a mechanism to prevent people from doing things. From that perspective it makes no sense at all IMO for karma from past lives. But from looking at it from a mechanic to learn, makes it more valid in my mind...

I feel your take on it makes sense. But at the same time, potentially doesn't. What's your take on the souls incarnating in the psychopaths/sociopaths running the world then? New souls every time? It doesn't seem like those people have souls that learn karmatically in the way in which you say. It's possible I suppose the bloodlines cancel out certain soul traits. Or we give too much credit to soul for our actions. I think we are very maleable to our environment. It's possible genetics are a conduit for the soul. In other words genetics are flowed through by the soul and if you don't have certain ones you will not be able to have your soul influence your consciousness in ways.

I feel I am in ways outclassed in the karma knowledge department by people here. But with a fresh mind(although I am mind controlled frequently), I see potential for misconceptions in it. I'm with aranuk, questioning our own beliefs is a great thing to do.

To the people who think soul is a majority if not all of our consciousness behavioral aspects, what say you to people who sustain brain damage and it completely changes their personality? Do you say soul affects the chemistry of the mind?

I feel I may not be right in my OP. But I do feel others may hold minor flaws in their own theories to. I may be wrong on either account.

Thanks for the replies :)

[Jacqui D]

I believe we are not in this 3d perspective, beholden to past/present/future life karmas.
Our other simultaneous selves have all been given free will choice and what we do with that perception of free will is to that ones nature of being, i do believe how ever that certain aspects of ones karma can play out in this 3d system (meaning) what was played out in another linear time you may reap that energy signature of karmic pattern.
When one reaches buddah state of perfection ie; God source consciousness the essence of working towards that point of eliminating karmic patterns the work you put into the body here can assist your other past/present/future selves, so in fact karmic patterns can be played out here in 3d but no i do not feel we are beholden to our past/present/future other selves.

[dan i el]

this is a very interesting read:

http://www.esalenctr.org/display/confpage.cfm?confid=17&pageid=125&pgtype=1



"...Drawing from an essay posted by Ken Wilber a couple months before the conference on his Shambhala website titled "Toward a Comprehensive Theory of Subtle Energies," Poletti noted that the core insight Wilber touts in his essay is that complex gross forms are necessary for the expression of higher consciousness and subtler energy. This means that Spirit (the Infinite, Eternal One, Ultimate Mystery, etc.) needs the material universe in order to express Itself, find Itself, and discover and explore Itself in and through millions of shapes and forms. Poletti said that even if we grant validity to this general idea that underlies evolutionary panentheism, Wilber’s recent essay on subtle energies and reincarnation only describes what Spirit is doing with the evolving manifest universe. Poletti emphasized that he is interested in adding to that what by proffering a theory about how the universe may be accomplishing that awesome task. ..."

[Teakai]

I like your take on karma. It's a subject I am in my infancy about in terms of learning the knowledge out there to be honest(better with this thread, glad I decided to make it). I do know my initial belief on it was it exists... But I lost that.


They were making me focus(my mind controllers) on the aspect of karma being a punishment, a mechanism to prevent people from doing things. From that perspective it makes no sense at all IMO for karma from past lives. But from looking at it from a mechanic to learn, makes it more valid in my mind...

I feel your take on it makes sense. But at the same time, potentially doesn't. What's your take on the souls incarnating in the psychopaths/sociopaths running the world then? New souls every time? It doesn't seem like those people have souls that learn karmatically in the way in which you say. It's possible I suppose the bloodlines cancel out certain soul traits. Or we give too much credit to soul for our actions. I think we are very maleable to our environment. It's possible genetics are a conduit for the soul. In other words genetics are flowed through by the soul and if you don't have certain ones you will not be able to have your soul influence your consciousness in ways.

I feel I am in ways outclassed in the karma knowledge department by people here. But with a fresh mind(although I am mind controlled frequently), I see potential for misconceptions in it. I'm with aranuk, questioning our own beliefs is a great thing to do.

To the people who think soul is a majority if not all of our consciousness behavioral aspects, what say you to people who sustain brain damage and it completely changes their personality? Do you say soul affects the chemistry of the mind?

I feel I may not be right in my OP. But I do feel others may hold minor flaws in their own theories to. I may be wrong on either account.

Thanks for the replies :)

There’s no hard and fast rules.
Sometimes we learn best through adverstiy and challenges. Those souls you may be thinking are unevolved, may not be so, but have taken on the position of bad guy for our benefit.
Or some bodies may also be inhabited with less evolved souls.

Sometimes souls may misjudge and not bring enough of their essence into a bodily incarnation and as such may not have the ability to deal with the body. We never incarnate with all our soul essence – and some choose to live two lives at the same time in order to hurry the learning experience. We have lofty goals from a soul perspective – but sometimes those challenges we set for ourselves can be too big.

Sometimes less evolved souls may take a body which is just too challenging.
But, we knew the score when we incarnated.

About genetics and soul, yes, I do think they affect each other.

[siggy]

I think we are all one, but also one in ourselves as well. I am not fully integrated with the sociopaths running this world. I am one with them in ways, but other ways I am very NOT one with them. We are very differing personages.

<snip>

What's your take on the souls incarnating in the psychopaths/sociopaths running the world then? New souls every time?

The sociopaths will advance to be reincarnated as worms in their next lives, or perhaps lawyers and politicians before they get to the stage of worms :)

As to incarnating as psychopaths/sociopaths: if god is all knowing, it must experience all - good, evil, hate, fear, happiness, compassion, etc. Without experiencing all, it can't know all. At least that's how I rationalise it all.

In the example of abandoning a friend mentioned earlier in the thread - you wouldn't have to experience abandonment in a future incarnation, as you've already experienced it in the incarnation of the person you abandoned. Again, we are all one. Easy to say, and I'm no expert, and I'm still striving to understand.

I agree, Great thread :)

[Calz]

I think one of the more "interesting" ways of thinking about karma ... and perhaps the easiest to verify is the "life review".

The massive numbers of near death experiencers have overwhelming recanted similar stories (not all but the vast majority).

Everything we do to others (good and bad) we will experience being on "the receiving end" during our life review. Time "stands still" during the process such that you can relive an entire lifetime not only moment by moment but also experiencing all the joys/sorrows/loves/pains of the others you have touched. This has been reported many thousands of times even if the nde lasts only a few minutes.

You kill someone ... not only do you experience the pain of the person dying but the grief of the family members of the slain person as well.

Does it carry over into other lifetimes???

I will let you fine Avalonians carry on the torch with that.

Nice thread Omni :)

[Teakai]

I think we are all one, but also one in ourselves as well. I am not fully integrated with the sociopaths running this world. I am one with them in ways, but other ways I am very NOT one with them. We are very differing personages.

<snip>

What's your take on the souls incarnating in the psychopaths/sociopaths running the world then? New souls every time?

The sociopaths will advance to be reincarnated as worms in their next lives, or perhaps lawyers and politicians before they get to the stage of worms :)

As to incarnating as psychopaths/sociopaths: if god is all knowing, it must experience all - good, evil, hate, fear, happiness, compassion, etc. Without experiencing all, it can't know all. At least that's how I rationalise it all.

In the example of abandoning a friend mentioned earlier in the thread - you wouldn't have to experience abandonment in a future incarnation, as you've already experienced it in the incarnation of the person you abandoned. Again, we are all one. Easy to say, and I'm no expert, and I'm still striving to understand.

I agree, Great thread :)

Hi Siggy - I know you were a bit tongue in cheek in regard to sociopaths etc coming back as worms or lawyers :) - but it made me wonder how we would fare in regard to our own action in light of our treatment to other living creatures.
Would we come back as worms (or worse, lawyers) if we used cleaning products that were tested on animals?
Or if we killed every cockroach that came within reach?

If we view the world and it's creatures through our own particular, narrow perspective then, perhaps the psycopaths aren't viewing what they do as being particularly bad.
As a meat eater might not consider what he does as anything but natural.
As the person spraying insecticide all over the place wouldn't dream of not using it and having flies in the house.

[siggy]

Hi Siggy - I know you were a bit tongue in cheek in regard to sociopaths etc coming back as worms or lawyers :) - but it made me wonder how we would fare in regard to our own action in light of our treatment to other living creatures.
Would we come back as worms (or worse, lawyers) if we used cleaning products that were tested on animals?
Or if we killed every cockroach that came within reach?

If we view the world and it's creatures through our own particular, narrow perspective then, perhaps the psycopaths aren't viewing what they do as being particularly bad.
As a meat eater might not consider what he does as anything but natural.
As the person spraying insecticide all over the place wouldn't dream of not using it and having flies in the house.

I have no real answers - I struggle with the same questions.

I've often asked myself if those who we see as evil considered themselves to be evil? Did Hitler think he was doing good or evil? Do our western leaders think they're good men when they send the troop off to wars?
I would have said that a good person is one that has good intent - but then what of Hitler, who I'd imagine thought he was doing good in his own warped mind!

As for the treatment of animals, I personally think we should treat all living beings with compassion. I've just given up eating meat, again!
I just strive to be a better person each day - easier said than done as I usually fail miserably, but at least I'm trying :)

[amedeejp]

Wonderful thread with plenty of thought provoking views. I only heard or actually thought of karma as it has been discussed here today about 2 years ago. Today I would not be too concerned about wether the mechanics of suffering or not in this life is related to past ones, but the possibility that it is so, might cause me to treat all I associate with today with the highest regard and therefore insure a higher rebirth in future lives. In my world I can't change my past, only learn from it.

Many blessings,
JP

[<8>]

Hey guys and thanks for a great input here.:)

My take on "karma" First its a man made word. Thats a big no no for me..:P (I think at this point in time) We are only here to learn. I hear stories about people who come back life after life and do the same mistakes. Normaly its a story about a women who get killd by her man or the othere way around and they have done this many times. I do belive that if we dont learn the thing we came here for we go back and try to learn again. So lets say this women and man have killed many times. They know the killing part about now i say. So is it the lesson not to kill and work it out?? I say no!! i am sure they have lifes B4 there they did not kill and are happy. So they have learnd the happy part in life. So then it must bee somthing els they mist to learn over and over. What if it was to think and feel if its right for a sec B4 jumping in a new relationship. I know i payed for it in heart break a few times like many more im sure of. Or it was not to go down to the pup. Maby a close on was sick and all he/she was to stay home that night and the jobb was done. There can be anything they misst and have to go back to try to learn again.
I do think we have to remember that we on this site here are more awake and will not kill any one. (I like to hope so anyway) As awake i ask god or my guides to guide my so i can do the right thing wid the info i have. I have had a weak point there i was thinking like the guy in the movie the Matrix, He whanted back in to the Matrix B-couse the real life was to hard for him. (in short)
And some times i ask them to beam me up, i tell them i got the big pic and it suck down here..LOL
I think sometimes that wid all the info me and you got. Have to be for the end game in this life to help others and im scared sometimes its gonna be realy hard test.

well that was a littel about me.:) Sorry if i got of track there..

Love you all...

[Tenzin]

Hi Omniverse, Inelia shared some very interesting points that got me thinking hard too!

It is said in Buddhism that only a sammasambuddha (fully awakened one; there are 3 categories of enlightened beings) has the ability to realize the dynamics of karma at its completeness. More specifically, with the 6th supernormal knowledge known as Asvakkhayanana (with regards to the extinction of 'being'). It is acquired through deep meditation, and the Buddha gained enlightenment on a Full Moon night. (Seems like there is a connection here about the fact that our Moon is actually an artificial satellite)

This 6th ability, can only be acquired during a so called 'Buddha-cycle'. Perhaps referring to the Golden Age, as per the Mayan calendar?

Karma has nothing to do with the concept of punishment. In layman term that risks oversimplification, it can be regarded as energy. With each thought energy generated from a conditioned consciousness (that keeps us in this 'Matrix'), this karma (action), will be transmuted into another form of energy. If we regard it this way, it is simple to understand why judgement (of what is good or evil) can actually hinder our work here on Earth in our current situation, just like what Inelia is saying when she encountered that 'pure evil'. Anyway, part of that energy determines most of our experiences we are having right now. Energy cannot be destroyed, only transferred, and that's physics.

It takes an entire book (holding one now that has almost 400 pages in it with small fonts and charts) to explain karma, but nothing beats knowing how it works in your mind, first hand.

By understanding how the mind works in our (deep) meditation, we can know how materiality (rupa) and mentality (nama) functions within and around us. In doing so, one of the first few supernormal knowledge we will NATURALLY gain, is to know our past life/lives (Pubbenivasnussati). Inelia also said that psychic powers are naturally acquired for someone who is on the spiritual path. So that's another note that resonate with me well.

Pardon me for not being able to put it across in a more concise manner. If I am enlightened, I will be back to clarify, so sharing what I can conceive now. :)

[Tony]

Karma does not go unnoticed.

Every attitude we hold creates an imprint in the mind.
Every time an event happens the imprint springs forward.
Every time this happens the imprint goes deeper.

Our reactions become a habit, the habit becomes a personality.

Because of this, our world is held together.
And the same things keeps happening.
Our world is driven by karma.

Enlightenment occurs when our karma is exhausted.

Every event is the opportunity, to exhaust karma.
All our self created karmic debt has to be repaid.
If one does not react, no karma is created.

With this enlightened attitude, enlightenment is guaranteed.

Dha = pure. Bud = awake.

[truth4me]

Greybeard you hit it on the head. Once you realize true self and turn you self over to God you can escape the karma trap plus IMHO advance a grade so to speak when this life incarnation is over.....
Being born a human is a karmic event, one meaning of Karma being action.
The word does not necessarily translate into English that well.
There are consequences for every action.
The action does not cause specific consequences but sets up potential for the inevitable consequences.
You could say there is no past life but a continuum of life.

The mystics say that the whole purpose of incarnation here is to escape the wheel of Karma, realize one true self = enlightenment.
Then there is no Karma to bring one back.
When ones action is surrendered to God then there is no Karma.

One is responsible for the effort-- giving it our best effort but the end result being surrendered has no Karmic (personal) consequence.
I cant speak for the Buddhist take on this but that is the enlightened Indian sage typical teaching.

Chris

Chris

[9eagle9]

What Pie-face said. (sorry I make up pet names for people)

Buddhist sutras had more of a grip on what karma was, carrying your baggage from one life time to another, and attracting more of the same as you went along.Which may be construed as punishement but hey at any time you can set your baggage down. Punishment? Self flogging mostly if one chooses not to sweep out the inner self there. Conversely if people brought a healthy outlook on certain matters thru lifetimes, they'd reflect that in consecutive lifetimes...That could be construed as reward but you you did it yourself, self rewarding.

The attachment to material things is often times miscontrued as material wealth, but it can be attachment to old outmoded or false ideals.

Emptying the dust from your soul. The Western mind didn't much care for the sound of an empty soul failing to realize it was rather poelmic so....it got all distorted. Karma as its naively known as most resembles the archtype OT God. Something dispensing reward and punishment based on behaviors.

There is a term that everyone shrinks from called service to self. Periodically we have to do self maintenance ...there is nothing that can be driven for lifteimes without some service or maintenance done to it. To NOT to it is service to self--ego self. You can never hope to achieve a healthy outlook on service to others without a pit stop somewhere along the way.


Karma is our habitual patterns, which we acquire. That is turn becomes a personality. These habitual patterns keep us going round in circles.
It is unnecessary software that is clogging up pure perception. So we suffer....Oi do we suffer!

[dan i el]

What Pie-face said. (sorry I make up pet names for people)

Buddhist sutras had more of a grip on what karma was, carrying your baggage from one life time to another, and attracting more of the same as you went along.Which may be construed as punishement but hey at any time you can set your baggage down. Punishment? Self flogging mostly if one chooses not to sweep out the inner self there. Conversely if people brought a healthy outlook on certain matters thru lifetimes, they'd reflect that in consecutive lifetimes...That could be construed as reward but you you did it yourself, self rewarding.



The premise of it sounds rosy and I like it but what about when someone who lives really well and is compassionate, kind etc..for instance, gets randomly targeted by a mugger in a state of psychosis from crack withdrawal or something akin..and end up getting knifed or something and then dying from the injury..is it then karma evening out the score on the person as they weren't compassionate really in previous incarnations? That wouldn't fit with the idea of a consecutive principal though, possibly.

Maybe there is increasing complexity born from iterations but like the nature of nature in the material world it can be random and cruel and also if one is like, say, Heinrich Himmler or so then there is also a definite possibility to just end up being mulched by the universe. dunno.

[greybeard]

The big challenge is that most people dont know that we are in the university of enlightenment and that even being born a human shows great Karmic merit.
So much time can be spent chasing after material success, the ego is acquisitional.
We tend to look for freedom in the wrong direction
We want freedom from controllers and all manner of earthly illusion not knowing that true freedom lies in realizing the Self.
When we graduate from the university of conscousbess we make it easier for others to do so too,
We lift the consciousness of all by our spiritual commitment to the path of enlightenment.
However even committing to a spiritual path is the result of good Karma.

Happy voyaging through this adventure on earth.
Chris

[Fred Steeves]

What's your take on the souls incarnating in the psychopaths/sociopaths running the world then? New souls every time? It doesn't seem like those people have souls that learn karmatically in the way in which you say.


Hey, I resemble that remark...Or atleast used to eons ago...The lure of the dark side(STS) is very powerful to a being who has learned much in the ways of controlling their reality, but without the humility and wisdom to go along with it. Pure delusion, and near total separation. The resulting big fall from grace grants PLENTY of "time" and heart ache to reconsider matters.

That's why I like to remind here from time to time the delusional controllers of present that it's still not too late individually to stop, although they are on very very thin ice. But, if their path is to learn by way of the big fall, I do recommend it. Carry on then.


Cheers,
Fred

[9eagle9]

**** happens. We know the conditions here on earth. Until one gets their **** straight and takes off the rose colored glasses the are going to find out the conditions here apply everywhere...

We chose this this place and its conditions.... can't cry foul now. We knew the conditions.

But yes people who are less morbidly obsessed about knivings, rape, murder and chaos tend to be less effected by it. Cause and effect. One of the conditions ...anywhere it the universe.

However if you look very closely at someone , one may notice they are compassionate and kind out of a sense of obligation, guilt, or to find some importance in their life etc. The crap knocking around in the inner landscape has the attractive effect, not so much the behaviors. The casual observer may never know what's going on inside the person, and see only the behaviors.






What Pie-face said. (sorry I make up pet names for people)

Buddhist sutras had more of a grip on what karma was, carrying your baggage from one life time to another, and attracting more of the same as you went along.Which may be construed as punishement but hey at any time you can set your baggage down. Punishment? Self flogging mostly if one chooses not to sweep out the inner self there. Conversely if people brought a healthy outlook on certain matters thru lifetimes, they'd reflect that in consecutive lifetimes...That could be construed as reward but you you did it yourself, self rewarding.



The premise of it sounds rosy and I like it but what about when someone who lives really well and is compassionate, kind etc..for instance, gets randomly targeted by a mugger in a state of psychosis from crack withdrawal or something akin..and end up getting knifed or something and then dying from the injury..is it then karma evening out the score on the person as they weren't compassionate really in previous incarnations? That wouldn't fit with the idea of a consecutive principal though, possibly.

Maybe there is increasing complexity born from iterations but like the nature of nature in the material world it can be random and cruel and also if one is like, say, Heinrich Himmler or so then there is also a definite possibility to just end up being mulched by the universe. dunno.

[grapevine]

Hey ... I'm hoping to set the cat among the pigeons here a bit and introduce a new concept to remembering other lives ......

What if ....

Remembered other lives were actually inherited memories from ancestors, in the same way that 'genetic abnormalities' abound in generations of ancestors. What if we have never lived before but just think we have. Would this free us up to live our lives as we are meant, ie. to live our current life as it unfolds, without recourse to any other life which may /or may not have occurred.

Just mo I'm throwing out there ......

[greybeard]

Hey ... I'm hoping to set the cat among the pigeons here a bit and introduce a new concept to remembering other lives ......

What if ....

Remembered other lives were actually inherited memories from ancestors, in the same way that 'genetic abnormalities' abound in generations of ancestors. What if we have never lived before but just think we have. Would this free us up to live our lives as we are meant, ie. to live our current life as it unfolds, without recourse to any other life which may /or may not have occurred.

Just mo I'm throwing out there ......

May well be so----- comes with the body.

Some say even the concept of past life must be released.
There is only NOW.

Regards Chris

[Referee]

I do not think so It is a fresh start a new try. You are returned to spirit form and everything all your mistakes are understood in a millionth of a second.

Best Regards,

[9eagle9]

Yes what you say is applicable, but not PC...so its seldom discussed. But there is a certain amount of merit in what you say. Nothing is black and white are lives are composed of a lot dense threads that are hard to unwind...and we live at many levels of existence....but if you were stoned in a previous lifetime or an ancestor was you most certainly will be again , due to 'karmic' value by thoroughly speculating on this topic forwards and backwards....but I respect you for stating it....much good as that will do....

(Big Peely Grin)


Hey ... I'm hoping to set the cat among the pigeons here a bit and introduce a new concept to remembering other lives ......

What if ....

Remembered other lives were actually inherited memories from ancestors, in the same way that 'genetic abnormalities' abound in generations of ancestors. What if we have never lived before but just think we have. Would this free us up to live our lives as we are meant, ie. to live our current life as it unfolds, without recourse to any other life which may /or may not have occurred.

Just mo I'm throwing out there ......

[grapevine]

As far as I understand the The Buddha taught freedom from suffering.
Only the ego can suffer - so to speak.
To be more accurate Identification with the ego story of me creates the potential for suffering.


Chris

Isn't the ego by nature reptilian? And if so, should we ... not try and overcome it but ....... TAME it?

[greybeard]

As far as I understand the The Buddha taught freedom from suffering.
Only the ego can suffer - so to speak.
To be more accurate Identification with the ego story of me creates the potential for suffering.


Chris

Isn't the ego by nature reptilian? And if so, should we ... not try and overcome it but ....... TAME it?

I can see you walking a crocodile on a lead Lol

Dont take my word for it.
Read any book about enlightenment (not new age) and you will find that the enlightened state is ego less.

Loads of videos quotes etc here.

http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?860-Enlightenment-The-Ego-what-is-it-How-to-transcend-it.

[dan i el]

**** happens. We know the conditions here on earth. Until one gets their **** straight and takes off the rose colored glasses the are going to find out the conditions here apply everywhere...

We chose this this place and its conditions.... can't cry foul now. We knew the conditions.

But yes people who are less morbidly obsessed about knivings, rape, murder and chaos tend to be less effected by it. Cause and effect. One of the conditions ...anywhere it the universe.

However if you look very closely at someone , one may notice they are compassionate and kind out of a sense of obligation, guilt, or to find some importance in their life etc. The crap knocking around in the inner landscape has the attractive effect, not so much the behaviors. The casual observer may never know what's going on inside the person, and see only the behaviors.

Yes, of course, sh8t happens, I know it well. I don't know if the morbid obsession causes effect claim is entirely on point, though. Where I lived before my current location ( where, generally speaking, one just has to watch out for neo-nazis mostly) it was pretty bad; and invariably it was those who didn"t pay heed nor give credence to the nature of the area that mostly became preyed upon this of course being where my initial example was more or less derived from..
Yes, of course if one is obsessed with some particular narrative or person or what not then it will be much the more difficult to heal themselves and cease the internal looping.

I agree also that there is a lot of fake compassion and spirituality flinging around too. It"s grim but that too is the present conditions, indeed.

I really don't see how anyone can be entirely sure and espouse 100% confident like as to what the nature of reality and life is in a metaphysical sense. AFAICS ..maybe there was a war which was too long and costly and we were hybridised from the factions by committee specifically for the express purpose of finding some manner of solution and nothing more..it might just be as likely that we have been flung down here for being right twots on another plane and are not getting out until we sort ourselves out...and there"s no guarantee afaik that all of us will even make it that far anyhow, really. the maybes are only as limited as our imaginations though, aren"t they..I take stock in that the rulers hereabouts fear dreams.. who knows for SURE what the meaning of life really is though and that their conception of it isn't simply a projection of how they HOPE it is..? I am not even so sure I would want to pow wow with Idi Amin, Pol Pot or etc in some cosmic afterlife soup where we all remerged and reconcilled. sounds far too simplistic, rose tinted and DODGY to me and also like the metaphysical avant garde for social control in the ensuing generatons or something. JMO

It is a very romantic notion to suggest/claim we "chose to come here" and even though it may be true it doesn't mean it necessarily is.

From what I have read of the Fourth Way, George Gurdjieff, even though the belief system he espoused was pretty harsh and definitelz not rose tinted it seemingly was/is quite honest and actually informed on these topics..Rudolf Steiner too in many ways, but of course it is nevertheless just my opinion and I would certainly never think either had every iota worked out snug and perfect like..

[pilotsimone]

What's your take on the souls incarnating in the psychopaths/sociopaths running the world then? New souls every time?
Sometimes we learn best through adverstiy and challenges. Those souls you may be thinking are unevolved, may not be so, but have taken on the position of bad guy for our benefit.
Or some bodies may also be inhabited with less evolved souls.

I was able to see this very clearly during the many explorations I've taken on DMT. It's an extraordinary thing to realize...the amount of gratitude I felt...that they would take on such incredibly painful roles (despite what everyone believes, being "evil" is very difficult for we innately loving beings). When I would put my focus on the likes of George Bush, Dick Cheney, Hitler, etc...I saw myself in all of them. They are angels. They are part of me and I them.

Nothing is ever as it seems. We are much bigger beings than we know. That's easy for some to understand intellectually, but when you really experience yourself in the higher dimensions...it's all very simple and clear. It all makes complete sense.

We are capable of handling so much more than we think...which is why we push ourselves down here on Earth. We are bold and courageous beings and we desperately want these painful lessons. They are pure gold. That's what I know.

[dan i el]

What's your take on the souls incarnating in the psychopaths/sociopaths running the world then? New souls every time?
Sometimes we learn best through adverstiy and challenges. Those souls you may be thinking are unevolved, may not be so, but have taken on the position of bad guy for our benefit.
Or some bodies may also be inhabited with less evolved souls.

I was able to see this very clearly during the many explorations I've taken on DMT. It's an extraordinary thing to realize...the amount of gratitude I felt...that they would take on such incredibly painful roles (despite what everyone believes, being "evil" is very difficult for we innately loving beings). When I would put my focus on the likes of George Bush, Dick Cheney, Hitler, etc...I saw myself in all of them. They are angels. They are part of me and I them.

Nothing is ever as it seems. We are much bigger beings than we know. That's easy for some to understand intellectually, but when you really experience yourself in the higher dimensions...it's all very simple and clear. It all makes complete sense.

We are capable of handling so much more than we think...which is why we push ourselves down here on Earth. We are bold and courageous beings and we desperately want these painful lessons. They are pure gold. That's what I know.

Although, no longer by any means "a psychonaut" or so, I have still a Psychotria Virdis plant here growing and have experienced nDMT and other variants a few times..but I never ever found that experience from such! I'll conjecture again that, rather than being a definite proven truth you discovered, it is equally possible that that that you claim is actually your own perceived conceptions filtrated through the psyche whilst being high on drugs..regardless of how profound dmt can indeed be.

I am not suggesting that you "wrong" just that you might not be right. Hitler as angel -- it"s popular in some circles. oooh. if it makes perfect sense to you, so be it but it doesn't to me.

whilst forgiving them please also forgive my brusqueness...i am an diagnosed cognitive invalid in this neurotypical world, an aspie. Often we are told we dont have empathy but i think its a crock..i have more than stalin did but i digress oops!

Some times an Ostrich has their head buried in the sand so long that inevitably some bad eggs are laid.. there is little they are useful for and a waste of time and energy for the Ostrich to try and nuture ..they are dead ends. rotten egg. The golden goose is not around. maybe their divine spark simply becomes mulch for a better try in the ever continuing saga of life itself..just as a body left feeds the earth/ and even dangerous if treated as good eggs by some hungry mammal seeking wholesome nourishment. I dont at all feel bad for saying that about Mao, Bush, Bliar etc

What is this obsession that every soul is ultimately of perfect love and that every soul redeems, or can redeem no matter what, stemming from? Do the patterns we can see around us in the material world mean nothing? Does the idea of microcosm and macrocosm suddenly become nonsensical in the metaphysical? why?

Call me callous and primitive if you like, but if someone sets about orchestrating genocide out of sheer bloodlust and meglomania then I am not rushing for the olive branch nor proscribing them an angel and indescribably less, claiming myself to be them and vise versa. why do you need them anyway?

[enfoldedblue]

Love this thread…thanks omniverse. My stance is pretty much the same as Teakai.

I have a lot of past life memories. In past lives I explored all kinds of experiences in my search for wholeness…many of them were not very nice. I played in some very dark places and at times did some horrible things. I’ve played the roles of both the dark ones….and the victims.

I recently had a memory of having my ribs ripped open. When this first arose I was not sure of the circumstances and was even a bit confused about how someone who wasn’t a giant could do that. The next day I was reading something that spoke of violent rejection…bang the memory returned…much fuller this time. I saw that I had been a baby when this event occurred and that the person who had done it to me was my mother (not in this life). It was part of a satanic ritual, and I was the sacrifice…talk about violent rejection!! As the baby I felt just pure cold fear, terror and utter rejection. But because I had also played the role of victimiser I could also understand the other side of the coin. From my current perspective I know that my ‘mother’ was at a stage in her development where she was exploring her darkness. This is not a fun thing to do, because in order to do it properly one must cut themselves off completely from love. I could see that my ‘mother’ in this incarnation had taken on the belief that love was weak, and that power came from rejecting love. I saw there was a second just before she tore into me that her instincts told her to grab me and hold me in love…but she was determined and overrode this instinct.

Today I know and love the woman who ‘played’ my mother in that life. She, like myself, has evolved through these experiences and is a beautiful soul who I have a ton of respect for. Today she stands firmly in love.

Anyway, now that I have thoroughly explored the darkness and understand the drive, I know without a doubt that love is where I want to be. Life cut off from love, even with incredible power as a result, is simply no fun! Because of this I can feel compassion for anyone still playing in the dark.

LOVE ALLways, c

[Teakai]

The premise of it sounds rosy and I like it but what about when someone who lives really well and is compassionate, kind etc..for instance, gets randomly targeted by a mugger in a state of psychosis from crack withdrawal or something akin..and end up getting knifed or something and then dying from the injury..is it then karma evening out the score on the person as they weren't compassionate really in previous incarnations? That wouldn't fit with the idea of a consecutive principal though, possibly.

Maybe there is increasing complexity born from iterations but like the nature of nature in the material world it can be random and cruel and also if one is like, say, Heinrich Himmler or so then there is also a definite possibility to just end up being mulched by the universe. dunno.

Not necessarily - Sometimes life plans don't go as planned because someone caught up in ego illusion does something daft.
Or - that person living the compassionate good life, may have chosen to have his life ended by the mugger/drug addict - which may then give the mugger/drug addcit the opportunity to turn his behaviour around. Lesson learned. Karma taken care of.

[Teakai]

Isn't the ego by nature reptilian? And if so, should we ... not try and overcome it but ....... TAME it?

Ego doesn't really exist. It's an illusionary perspective of being.

The ego can't get rid of ego, because ego is all about survival - it would be trying to get that which is all about survival to kill itself.

You can only step back from ego which will expand that pinpoint view of self into the greater consciousness of being and thus it disappears.

[dan i el]

The premise of it sounds rosy and I like it but what about when someone who lives really well and is compassionate, kind etc..for instance, gets randomly targeted by a mugger in a state of psychosis from crack withdrawal or something akin..and end up getting knifed or something and then dying from the injury..is it then karma evening out the score on the person as they weren't compassionate really in previous incarnations? That wouldn't fit with the idea of a consecutive principal though, possibly.

Maybe there is increasing complexity born from iterations but like the nature of nature in the material world it can be random and cruel and also if one is like, say, Heinrich Himmler or so then there is also a definite possibility to just end up being mulched by the universe. dunno.

Not necessarily - Sometimes life plans don't go as planned because someone caught up in ego illusion does something daft.
Or - that person living the compassionate good life, may have chosen to have his life ended by the mugger/drug addict - which may then give the mugger/drug addcit the opportunity to turn his behaviour around. Lesson learned. Karma taken care of.

And this extrapolates also to situations of conflagration and gross genocide involving millions, do you think so?

edit) in the latter reason cited...all those Cambodians wanted to give the Khmer Rouge a spiritual break and there was a big conference beforehand before incarnation? I dont see it.

edit edit) this is what i pondered:
"Maybe there is increasing complexity born from iterations but like the nature of nature in the material world it can be random and cruel and also if one is like, say, Heinrich Himmler or so then there is also a definite possibility to just end up being mulched by the universe. dunno."

if we are to be co creators perhaps it is the fact that we cant get past always needing to give the genocidalist another chance... they just keep bloody doing it!! we"ll get no where like that, surely!! If I in a pre incarnation discussion and a soul sazs to me @hey, i have an idea to wipe out a few million ...for karma, you know...fancy being one of the victims? I think I will just very firmly decline the invitation. shrugs

[Teakai]

Not necessarily - Sometimes life plans don't go as planned because someone caught up in ego illusion does something daft.
Or - that person living the compassionate good life, may have chosen to have his life ended by the mugger/drug addict - which may then give the mugger/drug addcit the opportunity to turn his behaviour around. Lesson learned. Karma taken care of.

And this applies also to situations of conflagration and gross genocide involving millions, do you think so?

edit) in the latter reason cited...

Hi Dan i el - I don't know if I'm properly understanding what you're saying - so I'll answer to the best of my understanding :)

I'm thinking that it's a god/devil sort of thing. god =good = soul. devil = bad = ego perception.
In ego anything goes. All evil comes from ego perception state. From mass genocide to mugging the nice guy down the street.

Sometimes we plan our life to stay in ego perception in order to carry out an act that we have agreed to carry out for the soul learning benefit of another - or our own - that we wouldn't consider doing otherwise.
Sometimes we just get sucked into the moshpit of ego (is that what you meant by the universe mulching Hemlich Himmler?)

It's a complex system and for the average person there's no way to discern the journey of the person next to them.

[dan i el]

Hi Dan i el - I don't know if I'm properly understanding what you're saying - so I'll answer to the best of my understanding :)

I'm thinking that it's a god/devil sort of thing. god =good = soul. devil = bad = ego perception.
In ego anything goes. All evil comes from ego perception state. From mass genocide to mugging the nice guy down the street.

Sometimes we plan our life to stay in ego perception in order to carry out an act that we have agreed to carry out for the soul learning benefit of another - or our own - that we wouldn't consider doing otherwise.
Sometimes we just get sucked into the moshpit of ego (is that what you meant by the universe mulching Hemlich Himmler?)

It's a complex system and for the average person there's no way to discern the journey of the person next to them.

I"ll freely and gladly admit that that is an interesting idea/concept/feeling .. but if one is to entertain for a moment that it is indeed the ultimate truth behind karma and spiritual growth; why on earth, does it messcessitate such continual abhorrent violence being committed on each other. we need to repeatedly abuse and extinguish each other in order to grow spiritually in a complex grand design? I thought we wanted to stop that sort of thing not perpetuate it for karma bonus points or so. Who designed that?? they sound sick in the head!! I dont see that as having basis in love really. I just dont see it, Teakai. sounds more like being in a spiritual Colosseum of something elses" amusement in that light. Please explain it further, Teakai, so maybe I can get a better idea of what you mean.

[TraineeHuman]

In Sanskrit, the word karma means “whatever you create”. That sounds like a positive concept to me. Why should it ever be tied to a notion of guilt? Guilt is a major tool that religions have used to manipulate or enslave people. It’s a useless emotion, provided the individual has developed and lives in true responsibility.

As far as I recall or understand, what happens in the afterlife goes something like this. As soon as a person dies, they see a “life review”, and often replay it over and over for several days after their death. This is a kind of movie that shows every event in their life. It’s an akashic “movie”, by which I mean that at every point you get to feel and hear the feelings and thoughts and perceptions of everybody involved. Even though you hear them all at the same time, somehow there’s no problem at all in following and understanding each of them. Clarity, precision, full colour – all done better than in any movie we’ve seen while we were in the 3D world.

The life review reveals everything to the person. That includes all the things they fully dulled themselves from knowing about or remembering, because those things were too painful to look at. It includes all kinds of unfortunate effects they had on other people, without realizing it. I guess the life review covers truly everything the person created – their “karma”. The person then forms judgments (both congratulatory and critical) about how they did over all in their previous life. These judgments get recorded, and they’re like a suit that the person “legally” has to put on when they re-enter the physical world in their next birth. At age zero the person pretty much adopts these judgments quite uncritically, of course. However, these judgments are totally up to the individual person. (Well, there is also a judiciary system in the sky, so to speak. But that usually isn’t relevant, for most individuals.) It's not "baggage" being carried around from past lifetimes; it's your judgments about how you did. The ideal is to have "good baggage", and lots of it, and no "bad baggage", if that's even possible in as difficult a world as the 3D world. If you can truly become more aware of the effects you have on others and truly know yourself and truly accept and like yourself just as you are, most of your "baggage" will be the good variety.

I believe before I was born I "adopted" some past-life "movies", because I came here as a volunteer, and needed those detailed records of human experience in my memory. Trouble is, the judgments those people had formed about themselves at the end of their lives came all inclusive with the recordings. And no, W1ndmill, these aren't memories of any of my ancestors.

[dan i el]

In Sanskrit, the word karma means “whatever you create”. That sounds like a positive concept to me. Why should it ever be tied to a notion of guilt? Guilt is a major tool that religions have used to manipulate or enslave people. It’s a useless emotion, provided the individual has developed and lives in true responsibility.

As far as I recall or understand, what happens in the afterlife goes something like this. As soon as a person dies, they see a “life review”, and often replay it over and over for several days after their death. This is a kind of movie that shows every event in their life. It’s an akashic “movie”, by which I mean that at every point you get to feel and hear the feelings and thoughts and perceptions of everybody involved. Even though you hear them all at the same time, somehow there’s no problem at all in following and understanding each of them. Clarity, precision, full colour – all done better than in any movie we’ve seen while we were in the 3D world.

The life review reveals everything to the person. That includes all the things they fully dulled themselves from knowing about or remembering, because those things were too painful to look at. It includes all kinds of unfortunate effects they had on other people, without realizing it. I guess the life review covers truly everything the person created – their “karma”. The person then forms judgments (both congratulatory and critical) about how they did over all in their previous life. These judgments get recorded, and they’re like a suit that the person “legally” has to put on when they re-enter the physical world in their next birth. At age zero the person pretty much adopts these judgments quite uncritically, of course. However, these judgments are totally up to the individual person. (Well, there is also a judiciary system in the sky, so to speak. But that usually isn’t relevant, for most individuals.) It's not "baggage" being carried around from past lifetimes; it's your judgments about how you did. The ideal is to have "good baggage", and lots of it, and no "bad baggage", if that's even possible in as difficult a world as the 3D world. If you can truly become more aware of the effects you have on others and truly know yourself and truly accept and like yourself just as you are, most of your "baggage" will be the good variety.

I believe before I was born I "adopted" some past-life "movies", because I came here as a volunteer, and needed those detailed records of human experience in my memory. Trouble is, the judgments those people had formed about themselves at the end of their lives came all inclusive with the recordings. And no, W1ndmill, these aren't memories of any of my ancestors.

Why can"t we review our lives and act according on our reviews whilst we are living them? Surely that is more efficacious than waiting until we are dead?

When in this review does the persons personality mean anything or is it just shed like old boots? If you as a person as you are does mean something in this condition...then what about when a person has too little or too much self esteem:

someone constantly over critical of themselves would then, it must follow, end up giving themselves a real crappy next life...many a victim of genocide of something// is that karma? because they created it themselves...doesnt really sound all that positive to me.

In terms of all these claims and reports of the bardo and akashic libraries etc // which i dont doubt have plenty of truth to them..but the one thing I know for sure really definitely exists is the here and now.

As I mentioned in a Pm to Bill Ryan once, when I joined the site (and had at the time started a very controversial at the time and quickly buried thread, but respect due, not deleted, bluntly saying to now not flavour of the month Charles that if he was real prove it or otherwise stop threatening people with the i'm a secret high level psychic hitman spiel akin to how Leo Zagami was want to also often do....) i was told by a Tibetan Llama once in Dharamsala how they knew me and how i was a top monk for back in the day and blah blah blah. nah, no way. i was polite and tried to express my belief that i probably just looked at a bit like someone he knew or otherwise he'd mistaken identity. maybe he was right..but that is not the sort of stuff you ordinarily would want to tell to a young western backpacker with any conscience, i feel, unless you dont mind possibly driving their ego to gross proportions and potentially mental instability. I think he was simply recruiting for his faith/sect and it was a tad manipulative in attempt. shrugs.

[Teakai]

I"ll freely and gladly admit that that is an interesting idea/concept/feeling .. but if one is to entertain for a moment that it is indeed the ultimate truth behind karma and spiritual growth; why on earth, does it messcessitate such continual abhorrent violence being committed on each other. we need to repeatedly abuse and extinguish each other in order to grow spiritually in a complex grand design? I thought we wanted to stop that sort of thing not perpetuate it for karma bonus points or so. Who designed that?? they sound sick in the head!! I dont see that as having basis in love really. I just dont see it, Teakai. sounds more like being in a spiritual Colosseum of something elses" amusement in that light. Please explain it further, Teakai, so maybe I can get a better idea of what you mean.

I think each and everyone of us is here for the purpose of our spiritual evolvement.
The challenge, for each of us is to overcome the illusion that we are our ego identity - from which place all crap happens.

I got this from Michael newtons book 'destiny of souls that he was told by one of his clients:


"Coming to earth is about traveling away from our home to a foreign land. Some things seem familiar but most are strange until we get used to them, especially conditions which are unforgiving. Our real home is a place of absolute peace, total acceptance and complete love. As souls seperated from our home we can no longer assume these beautiful features will be present around us. On earth we must learn to cope with intolerance, anger and sadness while searching for joy and love. We must not lose our integrity along te way, sacfrificing goodness for survival and acquiring attitudes either inferior or superior to those around us. We know that living in an imperfect world will help us to appreciate the true meaning of perfection. We ask for courage and humility beofre our journey into another life. As we grow in awareness, so will te quality of our existence. This is how we are tested. Passing this test is our destiny."

[dan i el]

I"ll freely and gladly admit that that is an interesting idea/concept/feeling .. but if one is to entertain for a moment that it is indeed the ultimate truth behind karma and spiritual growth; why on earth, does it messcessitate such continual abhorrent violence being committed on each other. we need to repeatedly abuse and extinguish each other in order to grow spiritually in a complex grand design? I thought we wanted to stop that sort of thing not perpetuate it for karma bonus points or so. Who designed that?? they sound sick in the head!! I dont see that as having basis in love really. I just dont see it, Teakai. sounds more like being in a spiritual Colosseum of something elses" amusement in that light. Please explain it further, Teakai, so maybe I can get a better idea of what you mean.

I think each and everyone of us is here for the purpose of our spiritual evolvement.
The challenge, for each of us is to overcome the illusion that we are our ego identity - from which place all crap happens.

I got this from Michael newtons book 'destiny of souls that he was told by one of his clients:


"Coming to earth is about traveling away from our home to a foreign land. Some things seem familiar but most are strange until we get used to them, especially conditions which are unforgiving. Our real home is a place of absolute peace, total acceptance and complete love. As souls seperated from our home we can no longer assume these beautiful features will be present around us. On earth we must learn to cope with intolerance, anger and sadness while searching for joy and love. We must not lose our integrity along te way, sacfrificing goodness for survival and acquiring attitudes either inferior or superior to those around us. We know that living in an imperfect world will help us to appreciate the true meaning of perfection. We ask for courage and humility beofre our journey into another life. As we grow in awareness, so will te quality of our existence. This is how we are tested. Passing this test is our destiny."

and before we come here and adorn the hermetically sealed ego suits we draw straws to see who is good cop and who is bad cop? who will play the victim this time and who the perpetrator in each instance? It's really polemical sounding to me.

dont misunderstand me, please...it sounds really NICE but I just cant see it as being so neat and tidy !!

[Teakai]

and before we come here and adorn the hermetically sealed ego suits we draw straws to see who is good cop and who is bad cop? who will play the victim this time and who the perpetrator in each instance? It's really polemical sounding to me.

dont misunderstand me, please...it sounds really NICE but I just cant see it as being so neat and tidy !!

No worries, Dan i el. I totally get what you're saying.

I know that I was looking around for answers to the big questions up until I read Michael Newtons books. I know I sound like a M.N groupie - but reading his books evoked memory in me that reached a deep level.
After reading his books I felt that that was enough - I had no more questions.

Whatever the Truth may be - it's finding it within ourself that matters.

[TraineeHuman]

Hi Dan'iel,

Some people do have the ability to read their akashic record any time, but those individuals are very rare. I totally agree with you, though, that we should all be reviewing our lives constantly and intensely, and acting on those reviews. That's pretty close to a statement of "the meaning of life" on this planet, as I see it.

Actually, I don't agree that a person can have "too much" self-esteem, provided it is genuine self-esteem. Again, not a bad statement of "the meaning of life" -- discover and unfold your true potential, because, unfortunately, most people get conditioned into using only a tiny amount of the abilities they are naturally quite capable of. For people who have low self-esteem, I would say that the challenge of learning genuine self-esteem is a big part of what life is all about, period.

Next question. Strictly speaking, the personality splits off from you within about three days of the time of death, just like your physical body does. Very bad idea to cling to it in any way after death, though unfortunately most people do, particularly those from Western cultures. Love is a great virtue, but let's not underrate true detachment. (The personality goes on living, usually for several centuries or more. It starts to break apart or "burn up" -- from which we have all the fairy tales about "hellfire". It may eventually attach itself to an animal.)

I suggest we are all much more critical of ourselves than we are of anybody else. Many people don't realise that this is so, but I believe careful reflection should make it clear. People who are more critical of themselves need somehow to learn the lesson of being kind to oneself -- again, one of the most important lessons of life. Hopefully they don't need to "sentence" themselves to an entire useless next life, e.g. in genocide, just to learn that.

And yes, the only time that exists is the now (which contains all futures and pasts). As the Zen proverb says, your"next life" is really the next minute.

[dan i el]

good stuff. Interesting accounts, TH I shall read more about that and also @Teakai I will pay a look at M.Newton.
re>by "too much self esteem" I probably should have better said vanity or arrogance... ie. someone who thinks they are simply great might under such a manner of karmic principle snag themselves a great life simply by not seeing themselves clearly.......

I don't know sometimes, i don't even feel like i am in the right species!! lol but apparently it isn't that unheard of with the F84.5 declination :/

It was a nice mini debate, thanks to both of you...pretty sure it will pick up again somewhen ;) but now I must go slumber. until then..

[pilotsimone]

I don't debate my knowings, dan i el. It's impossible to do so. Just know I respect and understand where you are and how you view this world.

[dan i el]

I don't debate my knowings, dan i el. It's impossible to do so. Just know I respect and understand where you are and how you view this world.



oops! forget about you -- thanks also PS for not debating but relaying your knowings..

the Ayahausceros have a completely different interpretation of the hallucination to the western rational one. I tend to agree more with theirs too.

hmm, I don't reaallly think you understand where i am and how i view the world...it might be a bit too much to deduce from a couple of posts on a thread on an internet forum..and also unless you have asperger's.......... but thankyou kindly for the respect.

goodnight

[truthseekerdan]

My take on karma is that it isn't about punishment, but about understanding a situation from another perspective. For instance - if you abandoned someone in a particular life, in order to understand the full spectrum spiritually you will choose to experience being the one abandoned. Once you have got that experience learned you will have that knowledge under your belt and will be unlikely to repeat that behaviour in future incarnations.
To me it's all about being a well rounded being and that means having the experiences required to make that happen.

Great point of view Teakai. If I may add my perspective here, karma may explain why some of us repeatedly choose the same kinds of behaviors that cause us to relive our lives through a series of recycled actions and reactions; "A man reaps what he sows.". It can also explain why so many of us fail to learn from the mistakes we have made in the past. We need to do something to break these limiting cycles. We need to start a process that requires us to think about or even relive the traumatic life-saving responses we built in order to redefine our lives and fully experience reality.

Once we do this, we become conscious of the truth of our experiences, which in turn enables us to focus on what lies beyond any negative repeat patterns. It is the truth of our past that enables us to move forward, and it is this kind of truth that tells us who we are, the direction we are going, what we are doing and why we are the way we are at this very moment. It also allows us to become more open, allowing us to see the best in other people rather than just trying to manipulate or control other people. When we let go of control, and manifesting Unconditional Love, only the Truth remains.

Much Love ~ Dan

[Teakai]

I don't debate my knowings, dan i el. It's impossible to do so. Just know I respect and understand where you are and how you view this world.



oops! forget about you -- thanks also PS for not debating but relaying your knowings..

the Ayahausceros have a completely different interpretation of the hallucination to the western rational one. I tend to agree more with theirs too.

hmm, I don't reaallly think you understand where i am and how i view the world...it might be a bit too much to deduce from a couple of posts on a thread on an internet forum..and also unless you have asperger's.......... but thankyou kindly for the respect.

goodnight

Being a buttinsky - to respect and understand that you are where you are because that's where you are is recognition at the spiritual level that you are on your own spiritual journey. It's your trip and that's respected from a soul persepctive - regardless of your human actions - if that makes sense?

[hholder]

I agree with w1ndmill,

We must realize also that spirit attatchments may be the very reason we consider a past life. The past life may not even have been ours!Our auras are magnetic to many discarnate beings, and there are many who do not wish to advance in the spirit world. My problem in thinking about karma and re-incarnation is that in our physical life our growth is physical, and when we are in spirit, then we grow spiritually. There has never been proof of re-incarnation, and think about it; If you do not remember your past life, how in this world can you ever hope to advance spiritually? When would you have time to advance spiritually, coming back 800 times to work out karma and believing that re-incarnating somehow proves the continuation of life after death? Just some of my thoughts,

Helen

[Teakai]

I agree with w1ndmill,

We must realize also that spirit attatchments may be the very reason we consider a past life. The past life may not even have been ours!Our auras are magnetic to many discarnate beings, and there are many who do not wish to advance in the spirit world. My problem in thinking about karma and re-incarnation is that in our physical life our growth is physical, and when we are in spirit, then we grow spiritually. There has never been proof of re-incarnation, and think about it; If you do not remember your past life, how in this world can you ever hope to advance spiritually? When would you have time to advance spiritually, coming back 800 times to work out karma and believing that re-incarnating somehow proves the continuation of life after death? Just some of my thoughts,

Helen

Hi Helen - I'm not sure what is required as proof of reincarnation, but there's a great deal of evidence that it happens.

This is a compelling story for the existence of reincarnation:

James was a fighter pilot in his previous incarnation - at the age of 2 he starts to talk to his parents about it.
Part 1:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_EWwzFwUOxA
Link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_EWwzFwUOxA

Part 2:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5965wcH2Kx0
Link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5965wcH2Kx0

[TraineeHuman]

It can be very dangerous to try (usually sub-consciously in practice) to hold onto a personality you had in a previous life. Firstly, it will know parts of you much better than you consciously know yourself. Secondly, it will believe it knows what's best for you, better than you do. Thirdly, its learning stops at the time of your death. Hence, it tries to "guide" you back to whatever may have been good for you centuries ago or in a very different culture or economic/social system, e.g. one where money wasn't as important for your physical survival. I have seen cases where people have gone probably insane or half-insane through accepting too much of such guidance from their own past personalities.

Also, your used personalities are like used cars, and therefore get treated like junk in the astral world. And all sorts of people come up with all sorts of horror stories that after death we get reprogrammed or tortured or whatever by robotic grays or AI or whatever. But that's not us, it's only our discarded former personalities, which aren't souls (and have no souls).

[dan i el]

hmm, I don't reaallly think you understand where i am and how i view the world...it might be a bit too much to deduce from a couple of posts on a thread on an internet forum..and also unless you have asperger's.......... but thankyou kindly for the respect.

goodnight

Being a buttinsky - to respect and understand that you are where you are because that's where you are is recognition at the spiritual level that you are on your own spiritual journey. It's your trip and that's respected from a soul persepctive - regardless of your human actions - if that makes sense?

the dog needed to go out..nice timing..and i'm bitorrenting, so...

re: just as we are all on our own trips, so to speak.. what you inferred was not the same as what I did from the implication; besides, what on earth would it have to do with "understanding my world view" because i asked a few questions about belief systems doesn't correlate at all to that imo nor does it give much insight to "where i am spiritually"// sorry, to say it but to me it came across a bit like another copy of cutting through spiritual materialism is ready for the printing press. the little i mentioned was that I "resonated" quite nicely with much taught within the fourth way...that was all...if you know something of the precepts of the fourth way you'll understand better where my questions were coming from but to assume one can understand where i am up to with my spiritual development (my inference of the statement) because of a bit of banter on a thread on the interwebs sounds really overly grandoise, tbh .. no harm done though!

dogs back in. necked my valerian tincture. time to zzz and hopefully oobe!!! been a wee while now, it'd be ever so nice!

do you get that feeling of gravity and the weight of the body just not being natural after a good oobe? i really do!

good night, Teakai. as said - thanks! :)

[Teakai]

the dog needed to go out..nice timing..and i'm bitorrenting, so...

re: just as we are all on our own trips, so to speak.. ` the little i mentioned was that I "resonated" quite nicely with much taught within the fourth way...that was all...if you know something of the precepts of the fourth way you'll understand better where my questions were coming from but to assume one can understand where i am up to with my spiritual development (my inference of the statement) because of a bit of banter on a thread on the interwebs sounds really overly grandoise, tbh .. no harm done though!

dogs back in. necked my valerian tincture. time to zzz and hopefully oobe!!! been a wee while now, it'd be ever so nice!

do you get that feeling of gravity and the weight of the body just not being natural after a good oobe? i really do!

good night, Teakai. as said - thanks! :)


You lost me on that one, Dan i el. I wasn't inferring anything - rather I was explaining Pilotsimone's comment to you in regard to you querying how she could possibly understand about you - from what little you have written.

It's nothing at all to do with grandoise assumptions about where you are spiritually. You are spirit - and wherever you are is where you are - it's just a fact - no assumptions made (except the one where I assumed that I understood what Pilotsimone was saying :) ).

OK - there may have been one other assumption in that I did get the impression by your response to Pilotsimone, that you found her response to you patronising, which is why I butted in - to explain that it wasn't meant that way.


I love oobe's - the most liberating feeling. I would love to do them by will - but no luck, yet.

Can anyone here teach how to do obe's by will? - that would make a great thread.

Good night - I wish you a most enjoyable oobe :)

[pilotsimone]

Teakai understood what I was saying. Thank you.

Good luck on your journey, Dan i el.

[hholder]

Hi Teakai,

This is truly a wonderful thread! We all have different thoughts, ideas, perspectives, beliefs, and being th libra that I am, I always strive to keep an open mind and regard the merits of both sides of differing ideas. I would like to support my view by qouting a portion of A Case Against ReIncarnation-A rational Approach, by James Webster, as he is quoting Dr. Carl A Wickland M.D. from Thirty Years Among the Dead. " During our years of Psychic Research we have contacted many discarnate spirits of of various conditions who said they had been seeking fot a chance to reincarnate but with the only result of becoming lodged in the aura of some person sensitive to spirit encroachment, thereby causing great distress to the victim of such obsession.
Often such entities inspire bizzare notions and hallucinations in the victim's mind, yet the individual may be unaware that a spirit is causing the delusions and the entity may be unaware of being a spirit or of interfering with antone, and both may be skeptical regarding spirit influence."James Webter asks,"Is a sea captain involved with 'bad karma' because he has to struggle with storms, mutanies, and wrecks? The reincarnation hypothesis would seem to be based on the assuption that the number of souls in the world is roughly constant, and that this number continually reappears on the earth in an endless variety of situations and relationships untill the great drama has been fully worked out. The reincarnationists are virtually dividing the total population of the planet by the number of alleged reincarnations which have taken place in the course of its history-an enornmous reduction in the number of its inhabitants!"

I thought about this and I believe that there is not a finite number of souls - how can there be with a limitless source, and infinity within our cosmos?

Helen

[Dawn]

Existing patterns definitely effect our lives. I have seen many past lives of many of my clients and see a dramatic event that they are not neutral about (such as messy death or enduring the plague or slavery) set up energetic patterns. I believe the origins of these patterns are our judgements and resistance to what happens. Anyway, I have seen these patterns slowly unwind. Like pushing a pendulum and as it goes back and forth each time the swing is slightly less until it finally comes to rest at center again. Here's an interesting example. I once worked on a client who asked for a cranial sacral session. Suddenly in the middle of the session I clearly 'saw' that I was holding his head which had been severed from his body. As I continued with the session lifetime after lifetime unfolded showing him making a decision, out of self-judgement, to commit seppuku. He asked his best friend to assist him in this endeavor, which he did. Unfortunately this pattern echoed down through many lifetimes where my client lost his head in various ways, always with his friend present and trying to prevent it from happening. These lives included a beheading in a guillotine, an execution by a ship captain, a fall onto a piece of iron, and finally culminated in this lifetime. In this life he had been sailing with his friend when the boom of the sail suddenly swung across the deck of the boat hitting him at the base of his skull and knocking him head first down the galley flight of stairs. His session request was prompted by continuous neck pain because he had never healed fully from being hit by the boom and his head was 1/4 turn 'off' alignment. I had interesting confirmation of what I saw when another healer he went to a year later saw the same sequence of events as they were working on him. So... his Karmic pattern is unwinding... in this life he did not loose his head... he just got whacked pretty hard. What if he had never judged himself and decided he needed to be beheaded by his friend after the ritual of seppuku? What if he had been neutral about what ever actions he did or about his culture's view on shame.... then no pattern would have been created. Well, this is the way I see it. And... I have seen people unwind patterns through conscious awareness so I don't think they all need to be 'lived out' in order to unwind them.

[Teakai]

Hi Teakai,

This is truly a wonderful thread! We all have different thoughts, ideas, perspectives, beliefs, and being th libra that I am, I always strive to keep an open mind and regard the merits of both sides of differing ideas. I would like to support my view by qouting a portion of A Case Against ReIncarnation-A rational Approach, by James Webster, as he is quoting Dr. Carl A Wickland M.D. from Thirty Years Among the Dead. " During our years of Psychic Research we have contacted many discarnate spirits of of various conditions who said they had been seeking fot a chance to reincarnate but with the only result of becoming lodged in the aura of some person sensitive to spirit encroachment, thereby causing great distress to the victim of such obsession.
Often such entities inspire bizzare notions and hallucinations in the victim's mind, yet the individual may be unaware that a spirit is causing the delusions and the entity may be unaware of being a spirit or of interfering with antone, and both may be skeptical regarding spirit influence."James Webter asks,"Is a sea captain involved with 'bad karma' because he has to struggle with storms, mutanies, and wrecks? The reincarnation hypothesis would seem to be based on the assuption that the number of souls in the world is roughly constant, and that this number continually reappears on the earth in an endless variety of situations and relationships untill the great drama has been fully worked out. The reincarnationists are virtually dividing the total population of the planet by the number of alleged reincarnations which have taken place in the course of its history-an enornmous reduction in the number of its inhabitants!"

I thought about this and I believe that there is not a finite number of souls - how can there be with a limitless source, and infinity within our cosmos?

Helen

Hi Helen - that makes sense (blue highlight) in regard to what I have read in that there are discarnate souls who hang about the earth plane not wanting to leave. It is also thought that those who are part of secret societies are actually in correspondence with these souls.
Except that it doesn't happen that way and that soul habitation of a body is a very selective process. Which may explain why those were the souls contacted by the researcher.

In regard to the red highlighted part - I don’t understand the reasoning as to why the number of souls must be constant or finite – for the sake of discussion can you explain that reasoning?
:)

[Teakai]

Teakai understood what I was saying. Thank you.

Good luck on your journey, Dan i el.

*phew* I was serioulsy considering never butting in again - and I would just hate that! :)

[Tony]

I suppose one could say, "Wake up, and loose the baggage!" The baggage meaning holding onto any attitude. We talk about bad things happening to us as our bad Karma, but then we hold onto it, and carry it around as a wound. It colours everything we do or say. On the other side there is good karma, which also has to be dropped. This is much subtler karma, because it creates subtle clinging. Spiritual practise has to be refined and refined.
It is easy to pick out my bad karma, then discuss it forever =clinging. But we equally clinging to our good karma = I deserve it = clinging. Spiritual work is really really tough, as self deception lies in ambush at every level. Everything has to be dropped, then we can see more clearly. Waking up = Consciousness. Loosing the baggage = purifying. Both of these together = Enlightenment.

Go beyond the mere word, and be at peace.

[dan i el]

Teakai understood what I was saying. Thank you.

Good luck on your journey, Dan i el.

Drat! I must have inadvertently become a seer..

Thanks, sincere good luck with beatifying the ruthless

nb. Just as it seemingly is on topic to the thread and as you claim to understand my world view...a brief synopsis of part of the belief set of the ancient system I mentioned, it certainly isn't rose tinted:

"The Fourth Way teaches that humans are not born with a soul, and are not really Conscious, but only believe they are Conscious because of the socialization process. A person must create/develop a soul through the course of his life by following a teaching which can lead to this aim, or he will "die like a dog," and that men are born asleep, live in sleep and die in sleep, only imagining that they are awake. The system also teaches that the ordinary waking "consciousness" of human beings is not consciousness at all but merely a form of sleep, and that actual higher Consciousness is possible." :alien:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourth_way

GL

[siggy]

<snip>The reincarnation hypothesis would seem to be based on the assuption that the number of souls in the world is roughly constant, and that this number continually reappears on the earth in an endless variety of situations and relationships untill the great drama has been fully worked out. The reincarnationists are virtually dividing the total population of the planet by the number of alleged reincarnations which have taken place in the course of its history-an enornmous reduction in the number of its inhabitants!"

I thought about this and I believe that there is not a finite number of souls - how can there be with a limitless source, and infinity within our cosmos?

Helen

My thought / understanding on this is that their isn't a finite number of souls - there is only one! One soul, experiencing everything via the manifestation of all.
The infinite can only understand itself by being infinite.

Sometimes I wonder if the infinite / god is battling within itself to stop itself going insane! Does it feel alone in the infinite and so play these games with itself & creates these personalities in order to keep itself company!?!?!
I know I sometimes feel like I'm going insane when I think about the infinite, karma, etc but then I only have a finite mind :)

[Tony]

<snip>The reincarnation hypothesis would seem to be based on the assuption that the number of souls in the world is roughly constant, and that this number continually reappears on the earth in an endless variety of situations and relationships untill the great drama has been fully worked out. The reincarnationists are virtually dividing the total population of the planet by the number of alleged reincarnations which have taken place in the course of its history-an enornmous reduction in the number of its inhabitants!"

I thought about this and I believe that there is not a finite number of souls - how can there be with a limitless source, and infinity within our cosmos?

Helen

My thought / understanding on this is that their isn't a finite number of souls - their is only one! One soul, experiencing everything via the manifestation of all.
The infinite can only understand itself by being infinite.

Sometimes I wonder if the infinite / god is battling within itself to stop itself going insane! Does it feel alone in the infinite and so play these games with itself & creates these personalities in order to keep itself company!?!?!
I know I sometimes feel like I'm going insane when I think about the infinite, karma, etc but then I only have a finite mind :)

Your subtler mind Siggy is infinite. You are just lead to believe you are finite.

I always had a problem with infinite..."Well it has to have an end! A concrete wall!" ...but how thick is the wall?....and what's on the other side...Now that is true insanity!

[siggy]

Your subtler mind Siggy is infinite. You are just lead to believe you are finite.

I always had a problem with infinite..."Well it has to have an end! A concrete wall!" ...but how thick is the wall?....and what's on the other side...Now that is true insanity!

Again, in the past I'd rationalised that enlightenment is the realisation that my / our mind(s) is not finite and is indeed infinite (as you said pie'n'eal); thus, opening up all the knowledge within this infinite mind and in so doing understand all.

This thread has certainly opened up some new perspectives and avenues of research for me :)

[Fred Steeves]

I was able to see this very clearly during the many explorations I've taken on DMT. It's an extraordinary thing to realize...the amount of gratitude I felt...that they would take on such incredibly painful roles (despite what everyone believes, being "evil" is very difficult for we innately loving beings). When I would put my focus on the likes of George Bush, Dick Cheney, Hitler, etc...I saw myself in all of them. They are angels. They are part of me and I them.

Nothing is ever as it seems. We are much bigger beings than we know. That's easy for some to understand intellectually, but when you really experience yourself in the higher dimensions...it's all very simple and clear. It all makes complete sense.

We are capable of handling so much more than we think...which is why we push ourselves down here on Earth. We are bold and courageous beings and we desperately want these painful lessons. They are pure gold. That's what I know.


Hi pilotsimone, that realization you had on DMT reminds me of one that I had on acid when I was maybe 20 years old. Except I forgot what it was! :doh: I do remember it was a very sudden and total realization of exactly what makes the universe tick. It was so incredibly simple that I thought I could just jot it down on the back of a cocktail napkin. But, there was no need to because how can one forget something so simple and profound right?

10 minutes later it was gone...POOF...

So it goes.


Cheers,
Fred

[siggy]

Hi pilotsimone, that realization you had on DMT reminds me of one that I had on acid when I was maybe 20 years old. Except I forgot what it was! :doh: I do remember it was a very sudden and total realization of exactly what makes the universe tick. It was so incredibly simple that I thought I could just jot it down on the back of a cocktail napkin. But, there was no need to because how can one forget something so simple and profound right?

10 minutes later it was gone...POOF...

So it goes.


Cheers,
Fred

Why does that sound so familiar :) Further proof that we're one :)

[Fred Steeves]

Your subtler mind Siggy is infinite. You are just lead to believe you are finite.

I always had a problem with infinite..."Well it has to have an end! A concrete wall!" ...but how thick is the wall?....and what's on the other side...Now that is true insanity!


I made a mobius strip from a piece of belt sanding paper and it sits on the dashboard of my truck. It's always there to look at and contemplate visually how you can keep on going out seemingly endlessly without realizing eventually you're just coming back on yourself. It even demonstrates how you can travel from back to front(dimensions?) without having to actually cross over the edge.

Problem is, if the universe is like a giant mobius strip, what kind of container is it in?:pound: Damn I wish I'd have written that down.


Cheers,
Fred

[hholder]

I agree with James Webster that "Human incarnation is a 'one-to-one' , 'many-to-one' correspondence from souls to phsical bodies." "Because reincarnation violates the minimum energy principle," which means that someone could extend the number of physical lives without progressing, and that would, mathematically, cause an 'unbounded solution.' The universal law of economy, in my view, does not allow many bodies to one soul, nut many souls to one body, as mathematically, a 'one -to-one' correspondence does align with spiritual laws.

I am not saying that reincarnation is not posible, but mathematically it is very weak indeed.

As far as karma goes, I am sure everyone here knows that in the eastern countries in which reincarnation and karma are ingrained, then if one witnesses a child afflicted with a debilitating disease there is no interference, no empathy because they all believe karmic debt is being paid. What about the mother who has crippled children; does that mean she has a karmic debt, or her children?

love and light to all,

Helen

[Davidallany]

I say that all true knowledge has been stowed away, instead lies and deceit has been introduced to Human societies for generations through religion, philosophy, mythology, history and science, in an effort to make people increasingly denser.

[truthseekerdan]

I am not saying that reincarnation is not posible, but mathematically it is very weak indeed.

Mathematics is for the mind, not for the spirit... ;)

[hholder]

My own quote is "Mathematics is the art and music of the universe" ~~HH

You are correct truthseekerdan, spirit is much subtler and softer than mathematics.

Love and light ,

Helen

[Whiskey_Mystic]

Karma does not punish. Karma does not reward. Karma is only energy flowing to rebalance itself. Like an ocean. It does not judge. It simply flows to balance.

[Teakai]

I agree with James Webster that "Human incarnation is a 'one-to-one' , 'many-to-one' correspondence from souls to phsical bodies." "Because reincarnation violates the minimum energy principle," which means that someone could extend the number of physical lives without progressing, and that would, mathematically, cause an 'unbounded solution.' The universal law of economy, in my view, does not allow many bodies to one soul, nut many souls to one body, as mathematically, a 'one -to-one' correspondence does align with spiritual laws.

I am not saying that reincarnation is not posible, but mathematically it is very weak indeed.

As far as karma goes, I am sure everyone here knows that in the eastern countries in which reincarnation and karma are ingrained, then if one witnesses a child afflicted with a debilitating disease there is no interference, no empathy because they all believe karmic debt is being paid. What about the mother who has crippled children; does that mean she has a karmic debt, or her children?

love and light to all,

Helen

Hi Helen - what is your take on what happens when we die?
From James Webster's take it sounds like we are souls floating aimlessly longing for an incarnation that will never happen?

Just to say - I have nothing to put forth on your question re: the crippled mother or children as my idea of karma is different to the pay back idea.
But I will just give a similar example from a psychic who looks at past lives.
There was a mother with 2 boys who were both handicapped - it turns out the reason was that in their previous lifetimes the boys were active in communicating hate propaganda during the war.
This life time they chose to live a life where communication was limited to them so that they could learn the value of being able to use their voice in a way that benefited rather than harmed (or something similar to that - too lazy to track down the book , then track down the story)
The mother consented to take that on for her lifetime - I can't remember what she wanted to learn, possibly it was just to assist them.
But - it was their choice.

[Teakai]

:pound: Damn I wish I'd have written that down.
Cheers,
Fred

Nevermind, Fred - we'd probably have had to have been on acid to 'get it' anyway.

"6 to the power of the hypotenuse of the square root of 6-3 to the power of pythagorus? Ma-a-a-a-a-n, that is so cool, Fred, du-u-u-u-u-de. You make the universe totally understandable when you write it like that."

:)


(no offence to hippies or acid takers with the sterotyping thing)

This is why hallucinogenics and other mind expanding elements are illegal, though. And no one would shop.

[trivesten]

karma from a past life makes as much sense as karma from a future life.. If any of you all know the strategic guidelines of karma past life protocol and responses and directives please shoot me a pm

[Wings]

I am not saying that reincarnation is not posible, but mathematically it is very weak indeed.

Mathematics is for the mind, not for the spirit... ;)

.... numbers are not just representative of an amount, but a rate of vibration, so they are also for the spirit.

Mathematics does show that reincarnation is very much a 'reality'.

[Someoneson1]

Whew lots of good stuff here. My two cents... I was in an explosion when I was nineteen and had an experience of being In "the tunnel" I never saws light as the tunnel was arching, but I recall going throughout these rings. Ten years later I read the tibetian book of the dead and came to the knowledge that the rings represent desire. And if i did not get over the desire in one life "that like a test I thought I missed" I still had to take it.

So based on my choice to experience individualism through separation; to remember is to wake up and put the story book down "the end". And if you've ever had the experience of being everything at once would you want to put the book down or would you (as I did) make a bucket list of all the things you wanted to do while still in a body.

Jesus said seek the resurrection now for after death it will be to late. Hmmm so 7x7 is infinity and I'll take as many bodies as I need to come fully awake. Hey it's kinda like seeing the end goal and relaxing as it's inevitable we will awaken eventually.

[truthseekerdan]

.... numbers are not just representative of an amount, but a rate of vibration, so they are also for the spirit.

While I respect your point of view, we need to understand that math is just a mind concept -- in an attempt to 'explain and measure' something that could not be otherwise comprehended. Even science discovered that this 'seen Universe is a projected holographic illusion'. Therefore everything that vibrates and has form is 'not real'. Consciousness has no form, but manifests itself thru energy that the human brain can interpret as form. Consciousness is what we call Spirit, and is the only thing that actually exists in everything.


Mathematics does show that reincarnation is very much a 'reality'.

A limited concept like math can not really 'explain and measure' something that is unlimited (infinite possibilities and potential).
Unless one has a 'formula' for that. ;)
Hope this helps...

LJThU1jDT2o

[Wings]

Thanks Dan, I respect your point of view too, but for the sake of clarity here is my post again.



.... numbers are not just representative of an amount, but a rate of vibration, so they are also for the spirit.

Mathematics does show that reincarnation is very much a 'reality'.

'Reality' --- so, I am very aware physical form is an illusion.

Mathematics can help one connect with spirit and show that reincarnation is 'real' .... there is a formula .... the question is can you see it. The perception that a concept is limiting is only that of the human mind. To find the answers and see beyond the 'reality' (illusion) we have to stop thinking like a human.

[truthseekerdan]

To find the answers and see beyond the 'reality' (illusion) we have to stop thinking like a human.

And acting too... :)

My post was not a response to your post Wings, just an attempt to explain in general for those who want to 'know' more.

Much Love

[truthseekerdan]

Mathematics can help one connect with spirit...

Personally never was strong or liked higher math like algebra and the like -- was to much mental for me. However, I really enjoyed geometry. :)

Much love and geometry ~ Dan

[Tony]

Consciousness at zero ( empty essence) popped its head out. Because it forgot zero, when seeing something it created 1. Then 2.3.4 and so on.

[dan i el]

Consciousness at zero ( empty essence) popped its head out. Because it forgot zero, when seeing something it created 1. Then 2.3.4 and so on.

I know there is division but does it only add and multiply or subtract too?

[hholder]

Back to Teakai,

Direct voice mediums keep us informed of the afterlife( John Sloan, Leslie Flint, David Thompson), and Webster's view is that after death spiritual progression is just a part of spiritual law.

I read once, forgot who wrote the book, that one can think of our collective consciousness as a grid, and if you look at it like that and all time being simultaneous, then is it not possible for one's consciousness to 'pick up' any other consciousness on that grid and imprint that life as one's own past life?

Helen

[felixq78]

Must it be seen as punishment ? The source/consciousness doesn't punish. I think it's just the result of actions we perform. Cause and effect.

[TraineeHuman]

9eagle9 and pie’n’eal: I don’t see how there’s any difference at all between a “positive judgment" regarding yourself at a deep level and “no judgment” regarding the same. I guess the best way to explain what I mean is to refer to a certain very fundamental teaching within all branches of both Buddhism and Hinduism. This is the teaching that our true, natural essence, our true soul without the veils of delusion and theories etc, has positive qualities only. Peace, bliss, understanding, and so on and so fifth. And yes, consciousness.

Like Gurdjieff, who wanted nothing to do with “The Fourth Way” as Ouspensky misrepresented his teaching, I don’t agree with those parts of “The Fourth Way” that claim we don’t have consciousness. I say the problem is that most Western people don’t recognize what they have. But just find, on your own, the true, natural bliss inside you, and that’s where immortality is. Go out into nature and you'll soon experience a kind of echo of it.

Ultimately the nature of reality and the multiverses is much more positive than some fearmongers believe. To give another example, there’s no difference at all between believing you’re deeply happy and actually being deeply happy (unless you’re heavily schizophrenic) n'est pas? Of course, all that’s not to say that we shouldn’t take serious responsibility for the garbage-collection role we have to play in being on this planet.

[dendraw]

Hi Omniverse, I found the following definition of Karma in a Theosophical Glossary:


Karma (Sans.) Physically, action; Metaphysically, the LAW of RETRIBUTION; the Law of Cause and Effect or Ethical Causation.

It is Nemesis only in the sense of bad Karma. It is the eleventh Nidana in the concatenation of causes and effects in orthodox Buddhism; yet it is the power that controls all things, the resultant of moral action, the metaphysical Samskara, or the moral effect of an act committed for the attainment of something which gratifies a personal desire.

There is the Karma of merit and the Karma of demerit. Karma neither punishes nor rewards; it is simply the one Universal LAW which guides unerringly and, so to say, blindly, all other laws productive of certain effects along the grooves of their respective causations.

When Buddhism teaches that "Karma is that moral Kernel (of any being) which alone survives death and continues in transmigration" or reincarnation, it simply means that there remains nought after each personality, but the causes produced by it, causes which are undying, i. e., which cannot be eliminated from the Universe until replaced by their legitimate effects, and so to speak, wiped out by them.

And such causes, unless compensated during the life of the person who produced them with adequate effects, will follow the reincarnated Ego *(when the "E" is capitalized, it's meaning is that of our Higher aspect as opposed to our "ego" or personality) and reach it in its subsequent incarnations until a full harmony between effects and causes is fully re-established.

No "personality" — a mere bundle of material atoms and instinctual and mental characteristics — can, of course, continue as such in the world of pure spirit. Only that which is immortal in its very nature and divine in its essence, namely, the Ego, can exist for ever.

And as it is that Ego which chooses the personality it will inform after each Devachan,*(the period of rest after death and before rebirth) and which receives through these personalities the effects of the Karmic causes produced, it is, therefore, the Ego, that Self, which is the "moral Kernel" referred to, and embodied Karma itself, that "which alone survives death."

* I inserted the little notes in ( ) to be helpful....I hope.

Well Omniverse, with that said, I've been studying Theosophy and the like for about 17yrs now and I've got to say I have an issue with the idea of "past life Karma" as well. Which would be that if Karma is the overall "guiding" Law, the Law of Cause and Effect or Ethical Causation, "it's" overall pattern would have to be based on that of justice, right and true.

Given that our perception of this Great Law is skewed through a linear perception, it can be difficult for us to see in a given lifetime why one might suffer from whatever negative experiences one might have. I think WE as individuals must examine ourselves and try to connect the dots as to why we might have such experiences.

Mind you it's usually only the NEGATIVE one's we have a problem with. I can't think of a soul who's complained about a positive experience! But I myself have had a couple of experiences that when I've talked to friends that study these same ideas, this same reply "well, maybe it's past life Karma"....to which I say phooey! Mine were tied to our "Justice" system and I KNOW FOR A FACT that they were based on lies, yet I had to go through the experience and suffer the consequences for something I did not do!

My question to the "past life Karma" theory in these instances would be that Karma would have to follow a path of True Justice and Ethics if there's anything to it and NOT be the "equalizer" through lies! So my experiences got me thinking in that, we also have to take into consideration sometimes CAUSE and EFFECT happen on this plane and this life time too! In other words, the ball got rolling here and now and NOT from a past life!

So that's why to me at least, only WE know ourselves and our actions. So we have to take the responsibility of connecting the dots and try to make sense of things and if we can't....well I think we should then try and make peace with it! Truly hope this is helpful!

Cheers my friend! D

P.S. -- Spacing and indentation added by Paul, to improve readability.

[Tony]

9eagle9 and pie’n’eal: I don’t see how there’s any difference at all between a “positive judgment" regarding yourself at a deep level and “no judgment” regarding the same. I guess the best way to explain what I mean is to refer to a certain very fundamental teaching within all branches of both Buddhism and Hinduism. This is the teaching that our true, natural essence, our true soul without the veils of delusion and theories etc, has positive qualities only. Peace, bliss, understanding, and so on and so fifth. And yes, consciousness.

Like Gurdjieff, who wanted nothing to do with “The Fourth Way” as Ouspensky misrepresented his teaching, I don’t agree with those parts of “The Fourth Way” that claim we don’t have consciousness. I say the problem is that most Western people don’t recognize what they have. But just find, on your own, the true, natural bliss inside you, and that’s where immortality is. Go out into nature and you'll soon experience a kind of echo of it.

Ultimately the nature of reality and the multiverses is much more positive than some fearmongers believe. To give another example, there’s no difference at all between believing you’re deeply happy and actually being deeply happy (unless you’re heavily schizophrenic) n'est pas? Of course, all that’s not to say that we shouldn’t take serious responsibility for the garbage-collection role we have to play in being on this planet.

Good morning Traineehuman,
Pure Consciousness ...just is. It is neither positive or negative, these are judgements of ordinary consciousness. Ordinary consciousness creates everything, pure consciousness has no needs, accept compassion. Unfortunately philosophy disturbs actual experience. Finding ones own way, may take a long time. Ego lurks in every corner, waiting to claim.

All the best
Tony

[greybeard]

9eagle9 and pie’n’eal: I don’t see how there’s any difference at all between a “positive judgment" regarding yourself at a deep level and “no judgment” regarding the same. I guess the best way to explain what I mean is to refer to a certain very fundamental teaching within all branches of both Buddhism and Hinduism. This is the teaching that our true, natural essence, our true soul without the veils of delusion and theories etc, has positive qualities only. Peace, bliss, understanding, and so on and so fifth. And yes, consciousness.

Like Gurdjieff, who wanted nothing to do with “The Fourth Way” as Ouspensky misrepresented his teaching, I don’t agree with those parts of “The Fourth Way” that claim we don’t have consciousness. I say the problem is that most Western people don’t recognize what they have. But just find, on your own, the true, natural bliss inside you, and that’s where immortality is. Go out into nature and you'll soon experience a kind of echo of it.

Ultimately the nature of reality and the multiverses is much more positive than some fearmongers believe. To give another example, there’s no difference at all between believing you’re deeply happy and actually being deeply happy (unless you’re heavily schizophrenic) n'est pas? Of course, all that’s not to say that we shouldn’t take serious responsibility for the garbage-collection role we have to play in being on this planet.

Good morning Traineehuman,
Pure Consciousness ...just is. It is neither positive or negative, these are judgements of ordinary consciousness. Ordinary consciousness creates everything, pure consciousness has no needs, accept compassion. Unfortunately philosophy disturbs actual experience. Finding ones own way, may take a long time. Ego lurks in every corner, waiting to claim.

All the best
Tony

Ego wants to claim authorship for everything- it believes it is the doer and thats what causes karma.
Edge God Out. = EGO
Typical ego says "Love me or hate me but dont ignore me."
A Course in Miracles says---- "The last resort of the ego is specialness"
With that thought comes Karma.
All are equal, different functions but equal.
Chris

[greybeard]

PS Pure consciousness is what we are.
Electricity you might say of varying voltage to activate the various forms we inhabit for the embodiment on this planet.
A Course in Miracles also states that "The chair has the same value as the body" = atoms in movement.
The ego does not like to hear that.
What you really are is not the body so there is no need to be offended.

Chris

[Teakai]

Back to Teakai,

Direct voice mediums keep us informed of the afterlife( John Sloan, Leslie Flint, David Thompson), and Webster's view is that after death spiritual progression is just a part of spiritual law.

I read once, forgot who wrote the book, that one can think of our collective consciousness as a grid, and if you look at it like that and all time being simultaneous, then is it not possible for one's consciousness to 'pick up' any other consciousness on that grid and imprint that life as one's own past life?

Helen

Yes, but then how does one account for psychics who can pick up on definite energies and identify that particular energy with living relatives? Wouldn't that indicate that departed energies don't just become part of a grid, but are able to communicate themselves to those they left behind?

[greybeard]

I suspect until you are enlightened you appear to exist as a separate energy signature.
Wen enlightenment occurs you dont become part of the grid ----- you are the "grid",
The wave becomes the Ocean of consciousness--- no fear though, awareness is never lost.

As a side note I knew several psychics well, they were rarely happy and not right in their "reading" that often apart from generalities.
People wanted to believe them and made the generalities personal.

Chris

[dan i el]

Like Gurdjieff, who wanted nothing to do with “The Fourth Way” as Ouspensky misrepresented his teaching, I don’t agree with those parts of “The Fourth Way” that claim we don’t have consciousness. I say the problem is that most Western people don’t recognize what they have. But just find, on your own, the true, natural bliss inside you, and that’s where immortality is. Go out into nature and you'll soon experience a kind of echo of it.



GG rejected what he saw as Oupensky's over intellectualisation of the concepts, he did not however reject his own teachings about the nature of cultivating self remembering and from that true higher consciousness...that's what I understand of it from the few years travelling with his own words anyhow.

The idea of potentially being mulched is not very comforting, especially in comparison to the prevalent "everyone gets to live forever" notion, but, personally speaking, as I know already my astral body is existent, according, to the system GG relayed, there will be an opportunity for further work but it wouldn't be all that without all those I care about. Many parallels to GG's ideas are also found in Eckankar.

[rennie2]

I,ve believed in karma ever since I was young.
My mother always talked about it and I always took in when she spoke about such things.
But I,ve had the odd situation where I,ve reacted to a situation because of karma,for instance a situation that has occured, I do the right thing because I dont want bad karma to come back at me.
Now on the odd occasion I,ve had to question myself are you doing this because of the consequences!
Why are you doing this I tell myself, just for the sake thats it means good karma is going to come back to me or am I doing it because its simply the right thing to do.....in the end I always try to follow my heart....but it is,nt always easy!

[TraineeHuman]

Dendraw, I agree with and applaud everything in that quote from the Theosophical Glossary. (I don’t agree that everything theosophy teaches is a complete or even true picture of metaphysical reality, but in this case I agree it’s excellent.) However, I’d like to explain why past lives don’t have a causal effect on a current or future life.

As any philosopher can tell you, the “law” of causality is simply invalid. It’s been absolutely proved to be invalid by some of the most famous Western philosophers, and their arguments are water-tight. (And Eastern philosophy proved it was invalid thousands of years ago. So I have no doubt the original concept of karma didn’t involve the notion of cause and effect. In Sanskrit, karma means what you are creating, which sounds very open-ended to me. If we’re being truly creative with life, what we’re creating may change hugely from moment to moment.)

Actually, contrary to popular myth perpetrated by high school teachers, scientists don’t really use this “law” either. For one thing, the sciences in fact use correlations, and causality would require correlations of 1.00000, which never happen. Secondly, wherever A supposedly causes B, what’s actually the case is that B and A appear together. So B often “causes” A just as much as A “causes” B. In other words, it may often be equally true to say that your current life behaviour “caused” the way you were in a past life as it is to say vice-versa.

[TraineeHuman]

Tony: You keep insisting that what we really are is pure consciousness empty of anything else. But the reality is that you and I are also “beings” living in this limited physical world.

I don’t know if you’re familiar with the ten Oxherding Pictures of Zen Buddhism. These ten pictures are generally acknowledged to accurately depict the ten stages of spiritual evolution for human beings. (And if you want the fullest available account of spiritual evolution, try reading The Life Divine, by Sri Aurobindo). As you may be aware, the ninth picture is all about going to the mountaintop and seeing existence all in terms of the biggest possible picture, i.e. in terms of pure consciousness and oneness.

The tenth picture, however, is all about returning to the marketplace and living a normal, ordinary life again. It’s about “think global but act locally”, except that you also think locally. Pure consciousness has no needs, as you say. But the marketplace does have needs. "Ego" isn't our enemy, and in the marketplace (in my experience) we learn in detail how to master collaborating with the Ego, without cleansing ourselves of it.

[hholder]

To rennie2,

Why would one want to live life condtionally? Karmic thinking, in my view, stagnates our physical as well as spiritual progression, for how we feel in our hearts, so we are in the afterlife. There are thousands of souls believing in reincarnation and karma, and when the avenue of reicarnation( which is their addiction, in an abstract sense)is nonexistent for them, they become obsessers of mortals, even fetuses because their belief is so strong. There exist more discarnate entities then incarnate, which is the reason for much mental illness in our world.

I love all,

Helen

[TraineeHuman]

[/QUOTE]

GG rejected what he saw as Oupensky's over intellectualisation of the concepts, he did not however reject his own teachings about the nature of cultivating self remembering and from that true higher consciousness...that's what I understand of it from the few years travelling with his own words anyhow.

The idea of potentially being mulched is not very comforting, especially in comparison to the prevalent "everyone gets to live forever" notion, but, personally speaking, as I know already my astral body is existent, according, to the system GG relayed, there will be an opportunity for further work. Many parallels to GG's ideas are also found in Eckankar.[/QUOTE]

Dan’iel, I’ve evidently misunderstood why Gurdjieff rejected Ouspensky’s writings, so I’d like to apologise, as you’re no doubt better informed about that.

As far as mortality/immortality goes, it would take a very long account for me to explain why I consider I know that all humans already partly exist beyond time, and hence eternally. I do admit, though, that those – if any – who would never make it to a certain higher dimension would go through so much change you could say they’re certainly no longer the same being. If a sock keeps being patched up until it's entirely made of patches, is it still the same sock? Is any of us the same "person" at sixty as we were at five? Probably not. Hopefully not, because it's good to change for the better.

I also have trouble with the “asleep/awake” metaphor. When our bodies are asleep, our bodies already have the full capacity to wake up whenever needed in a second, and will do so in an emergency. But the person without consciousness, a la The Fourth Way, doesn’t have any wake-up “on switch” like the body has. So for me the analogy isn’t there, if that makes sense.

[Tony]

Tony: You keep insisting that what we really are is pure consciousness empty of anything else. But the reality is that you and I are also “beings” living in this limited physical world.

I don’t know if you’re familiar with the ten Oxherding Pictures of Zen Buddhism. These ten pictures are generally acknowledged to accurately depict the ten stages of spiritual evolution for human beings. (And if you want the fullest available account of spiritual evolution, try reading The Life Divine, by Sri Aurobindo). As you may be aware, the ninth picture is all about going to the mountaintop and seeing existence all in terms of the biggest possible picture, i.e. in terms of pure consciousness and oneness.

The tenth picture, however, is all about returning to the marketplace and living a normal, ordinary life again. It’s about “think global but act locally”, except that you also think locally. Pure consciousness has no needs, as you say. But the marketplace does have needs. "Ego" isn't our enemy, and in the marketplace (in my experience) we learn in detail how to master collaborating with the Ego, without cleansing ourselves of it.

I still hold to that. Remember there is relative truth = seeming reality, and Absolute truth = reality. In Dzogchen this pure consciousness is called Rigpa essence. It is quite dry. But once that is realised, then there is Expression Rigpa, Display Rigpa and Ornament Rigpa. As far as I know, Expression and Display are to do with dealing or playing in the relative world. There is a mere ego present, but that's OK because Rigpa essence is known.

So first one loses ego, then one can allow ego into the space created by Rigpa essence. Because as you say we live in the physical.

Then there is Ornament Rigpa = Dharmakaya, that is the real thing.....so I'm told!

You say slope, and I say angle!

[ktlight]

Hey ... I'm hoping to set the cat among the pigeons here a bit and introduce a new concept to remembering other lives ......

What if ....

Remembered other lives were actually inherited memories from ancestors, in the same way that 'genetic abnormalities' abound in generations of ancestors. What if we have never lived before but just think we have. Would this free us up to live our lives as we are meant, ie. to live our current life as it unfolds, without recourse to any other life which may /or may not have occurred.

Just mo I'm throwing out there ......

There is only NOW.

Regards Chris

There is ONLY Now, no past and, to me, the act that there is no recall of any past life is grossly unfair, puts each of us at a complete disadvantage and therefore would be an act of extreme unkindness, which would be outside the tenet of the Universe. They say in religion that the sins of the father visit every third generation. How would that help any generation, any ONE? It is so unkind. Certainly not love or compassion.

I was told by a medium that I had no karma to pay back. I question(ed) this since I am a human being with many faults.

Likewise, I believed in my childhood that Jesus died on the cross to save the world from our sins, but I grew to realise that this could not possibly be true, since there was/is sin all around - poverty, perversion, war, etc etc.

[jjjones]

Hello Omniverse & All ! I am not saying that this respond's is an intelligent perspective, but it is mine, and maybe a somewhat different perspective. I think that we choose with guidance from our higher self, guides and master's through our past lives strengths and weaknesses situations that will really enable us to learn and grow in wisdom and awareness. For me, this isn't punishment inflicted, it is a hard installation of learning called the school of hard knocks. Punishment is a state of being that we willing have chosen to experience.If we do not learn or gain insight and wisdom to discern in positive choices, then it is again.., wash, rinse and repeat! Karma? Past Lives?

The body and the DNA is a conduit of the physical experience and not infinite in this dimension. It is for this dimension of time, space only. In another dimension, different type of body and DNA helix? The soul is an infinite particle of the Source, Force, God, whatever one chooses to call your life energy connector to All that is. For me, the soul is life's energy force that is made up of ALL that IS and WILL BE, continuous life, change and creation & unconditional LOVE.

I don't believe that we are being punished for someone else's actions. After all, we are ALL teachers and students @ the same time. There is ALWAYS something to learn no matter how bad or good the person or situation is. We MUST EXPERIENCE in order to know and have empathy, sympathy, acceptance, understanding, forgiveness, unconditional love of self and other's to be in the "being state of peace". In this world people are looking for happiness, which is a fleeting short state of being here in this life. People are really looking for peace, that contentment is where the misused word of their happiness lies.

Nothing to us human beings seems really logical until we learn, experience and grow into understanding and acceptance. This takes, as we all know, time after time, after time of experiencing choices. Ever notice how we keep repeating POOR/NEGATIVE choices over and over and sometime we don't even then "get It" and learn from it then? We perfect the universe as we grow, learn and experience. We have great diversity in the universe and in our lives, it is also known as "free will" & "choice". It is necessary for us to know who we are and who we are not. Without experiencing both sides of the coin, the negative and the positive, then how can it be possible to relate and completely understand another or situation? When one can relate, understand, forgive, sacrifice and accept from experiencing, then and only then can we really be an asset of help and love unconditionally others, ourselves and the Universe. Good will and peace to all! :) jjjjones

[dan i el]

double posted

[dan i el]

[QUOTE=TraineeHuman;255292]
Dan’iel, I’ve evidently misunderstood why Gurdjieff rejected Ouspensky’s writings, so I’d like to apologise, as you’re no doubt better informed about that.


That's okay. Yes, i guess i am my village's third foremost Gurdjieff expert but the local vet is better on the contemporaneous effects of Zoroastriamism and Mithraic cults. Apology not required but nevertheless accepted..here, you have one too..




As far as mortality/immortality goes, it would take a very long account for me to explain why I consider I know that all humans already partly exist beyond time, and hence eternally. I do admit, though, that those – if any – who would never make it to a certain higher dimension would go through so much change you could say they’re certainly no longer the same being. If a sock keeps being patched up until it's entirely made of patches, is it still the same sock? Is any of us the same "person" at sixty as we were at five? Probably not. Hopefully not, because it's good to change for the better.

I also have trouble with the “asleep/awake” metaphor. When our bodies are asleep, our bodies already have the full capacity to wake up whenever needed in a second, and will do so in an emergency. But the person without consciousness, a la The Fourth Way, doesn’t have any wake-up “on switch” like the body has. So for me the analogy isn’t there, if that makes sense.

Instincts are controlled by brain function and the 'dictates' of gene sequences as you, no doubt, are already aware. Some people will wake up faster than others in an emergency situation, some perhaps may sleep through the situation and face peril due to this.

Meditation requires practice. Practice is work. "On switch" moments and diamond light like zinging beams of clarity i do not doubt exist but the more known method is to practice; to cultivate. I would have thought that if they were more prevalent or properly recognised then the state of affairs of homo sapiens sapien possibly might not be so precarious.


We are not exactly encouraged to dream.
Be that as it may, we all practice somethings at some points to learn, improve and seek reward because otherwise we wouldn"t have the skills to be able to the things needed to get the reward.You might say, ''ah, but one doesn't have to practice to dream..it is innate! Like the soul that burns within our breast!" And you might be right. But even so, it is absolutely possible to go through life having only random experiences of dreams and never having experienced any degree of remembered cogent lucidity within them nor having escaped the dream landscape to an out of body state. For those wholly fixated on material gain, if the laws of karma are existent as described among this thread then they may well be on an eternal running mill in a goldfish bowl and i am not clear on whether the 2nd law of thermodynamics supports that. How about you?
As think GG was right in the general statement that a man can be born and later die having been asleep throughout the entirety of his life and that unfortunately was, as they say, that. It is not rose-tinted, it is sobering even if it later turns out to have been in error.

i don't say i subscribe to anything either but neither have i seen a signed manifest assuring that every or any human being on this planet can take it for granted that they will continue beyond this life, are indefatiguable conscious light and it is gratis, no efforts required/ some people say "just give thanks" but with 10.000 children alone dying daily it seems a bit hollow or mercenary somehow. maybe it is just karma in action.

If someone finds them self (no pun intended) thrown out into a great ocean and their body simply can't swim because they spent their whole life sleeping, jerking off, watching tv and eating donuts, then why would it not be likely they are not only going to be in dangerously deep water but also deep sh7t too?

One thing for sure and that is that advanced gerontological technology is elite.
Just as the Egyptian book of the dead and the tips for successfully navigating through gateways and guardians to the reward of immortality through their equivalent to Bardo states, was indeed only for the elite.

[aranuk]

I posted at the beginning in post#11+13. Nobody has commented on it though. I have believed in Karma and re-incarnation for 50 odd years. I still do, but I still question the inherent logic behind it. If I committed an action such as biffing a school mate on the nose, should I feel guilty for fifty years or not? Perhaps the person biffed me on the nose in a previous incarnation and we both agreed in the spiritual realm that it was my obligation to biff him back in this life. SO that action of mine in this life was retribution. How can I know for sure which possibility was correct? I may have felt in my heart at the time it happened that he deserved it. Does that feeling I had in my heart make it certain I was doing it for the "right" reason? I don't really know and I cannot be sure. If Karma is a reality then we SHOULD friggin' know or else it is an absolute waste of time. Also sometimes we think and feel we are doing someone a good turn and looking back on it maybe we shouldn't have bothered. Same.

Stan

[truthseekerdan]

I posted at the beginning in post#11+13. Nobody has commented on it though. I have believed in Karma and re-incarnation for 50 odd years. I still do, but I still question the inherent logic behind it. If I committed an action such as biffing a school mate on the nose, should I feel guilty for fifty years or not? Perhaps the person biffed me on the nose in a previous incarnation and we both agreed in the spiritual realm that it was my obligation to biff him back in this life. SO that action of mine in this life was retribution. How can I know for sure which possibility was correct? I may have felt in my heart at the time it happened that he deserved it. Does that feeling I had in my heart make it certain I was doing it for the "right" reason? I don't really know and I cannot be sure. If Karma is a reality then we SHOULD friggin' know or else it is an absolute waste of time. Also sometimes we think and feel we are doing someone a good turn and looking back on it maybe we shouldn't have bothered. Same.


Stan

Just forgive yourself my friend, and follow your spirit. You will know...

Much Love

[dan i el]

It's easy to keep the focus on the personal/individual but in considering genocide, mass starvation etc, the ramifications of what karma is representative of are far more murky.

If Archons or Monsanto or Dyncorp etc are intent on profiteering from our great and perpetual suffering and in the mean time we are purportedly hanging around in the ether dying for a chance to either die because of it or help instigate, then the whole thing strikes me as a curious set up. who let the lunatics run the asylum? om.

[DNA]

My take on karma is that it isn't about punishment, but about understanding a situation from another perspective. For instance - if you abandoned someone in a particular life, in order to understand the full spectrum spiritually you will choose to experience being the one abandoned. Once you have got that experience learned you will have that knowledge under your belt and will be unlikely to repeat that behaviour in future incarnations.
To me it's all about being a well rounded being and that means having the experiences required to make that happen.

No comment on body intelligence- apart from having read that people having received donor transplants have been known to take on the likes and dislikes of the donor.

This is pretty much my take on it as well.
Discarnate souls have the perspective of seeing a future life in it's raw potentials.
Nothing is poured in concrete, a life is like the many roots to a plant, circling and cycling in any number of directions through the soil, but, you know what kind of plant your getting into and what kind of soil it's planted in before you start.

That being said, I think it absolutely is a fact that we choose ego constraints in order to flavor any given life, and those constraints could be said to be our most negative triats. And our most defining.
Are you greedy? Are you greedy for material wealth? Possesions? Sensations? Passions?
Are you masochistic? Are you masochistic in terms with how you talk to yourself? Do you put yourself down insesently? Does your particular massochism surface with the need to inflict physical pain? Do you cut yourself?
Impatient?
Stubborn?
Are you a martyr? Do you feel the need to throw yourself at a given circumstance to the point of certain death?
Do you martyr yourself to a person or a cause?

I mention these things, because I believe it goes beyond karma in the cause and affect sense.
I think we must participate in the drama of life, and learn from all the different roles this form of theatre has to offer.

When I began to look at life like this, I became a lot less judgmental.
I've stopped projecting a needed level of spiritual achievment/awareness on my contemporaries and I have begun accepting them for who they actually are.

Where ever you are is exactly where your supposed to be.

[DNA]

Chris Honestly I have believed in Karma and re-incarnation since I was 11 when I started zen. If we don't know what we aught to be doing then we cannot possibly avoid doing it. As far as I understood it, our Higher Self guides us to do it in the most innocuous little ways. The way I used to think was that if we look at our past life in this life I mean and at the crossroads where we went this way or that way it is extremely likely that it was a little "innocent" action that kept us on the right track. This is a fascinating subject, I'm loving it!

Stan

If we listen to our gut, or our heart/conscience - we are more likley to be kept on the path we chose. But people have totally messed up and have done things that they later regret.

We don't suddenly become something or someone else when we die. We just shed the earthly body and regain our memory and as such have a whole new perspective.

And there are those souls who have done really hurtful things to others while following the ego rather than their heart who will feel so ashamed of what they have done.

But everything is forgivable in soul. This is a learning place - and even the most failed lesson can have value if we allow ourselves to learn from it.

I think this is a fascinating subject, too :)
Have you read michael newton's book? Best books ever!

Not deliberatly singling you out, Aranuk - but you're saying the interesting stuff that's inspiring me to return comment :)

I love Michael Newton's books,,,and I certainly hope that is how it is.
I really dig Chelsea Quin Yarbro's "messages from michael" as well.

[hholder]

Hi again Teakai,

My thought on the grid idea is that your life in physical is inprinted, so to speak, there, yet your consciousness is always in the now, so I believe a psychic can communicate with consciousness and also access life patterns on the grid. I believe we can all do this, but we are conditioned to not be psychic by our family as well as society.

I also have an idea that karma is used to reinforce the belief in reincarnation, for in a sense, that would be a justification to come back, which in turn validates the existence of continued life after death,

love and light,

Helen

[Teakai]

Hi again Teakai,

My thought on the grid idea is that your life in physical is inprinted, so to speak, there, yet your consciousness is always in the now, so I believe a psychic can communicate with consciousness and also access life patterns on the grid. I believe we can all do this, but we are conditioned to not be psychic by our family as well as society.

I also have an idea that karma is used to reinforce the belief in reincarnation, for in a sense, that would be a justification to come back, which in turn validates the existence of continued life after death,

love and light,

Helen

Is the physical life printed in the grid before we live it - or do we imprint it into the grid by living it?

And the consciousness that is living in the now is what? Is it one great oversoul having individual experiences which we only consider to be the individual us?

And if it is - what would be the point?

Also - do you think souls exists and are put into a body - or does a body make a soul exist?

(thanks for answering BTW :) )

[Teakai]

It's easy to keep the focus on the personal/individual but in considering genocide, mass starvation etc, the ramifications of what karma is representative of are far more murky.

If Archons or Monsanto or Dyncorp etc are intent on profiteering from our great and perpetual suffering and in the mean time we are purportedly hanging around in the ether dying for a chance to either die because of it or help instigate, then the whole thing strikes me as a curious set up. who let the lunatics run the asylum? om.

Doesn't it?!
It's like you whack down a bunch of souls onto earth and depending on how spiritually evolved they've become they will either continue to create the cesspool of negativity - that includes the mass murders/genocide and all the other horrors - and other souls depending on their evolvement will no longer be interested in the lowly desires, but will move forward as each desire is conquered (?).

Earth is such a heavily negative place and also offers so much by opportunity for spiritual growth because it is so heavy.

There are far easier places to evolve on, but we chose here - man, we must be some crazy arse souls.