Sinkholes, the punched through kind

[Hervé]

Another sinkhole from Guatemala...

I guess most everyone remembers this one:


8927

Now another one, same shape but down-sized appeared inside a house, under a bed:


8928



The sinkhole under a Guatemalan woman's bed is about 40 feet deep.
July 20th, 2011
07:34 AM ET
http://news.blogs.cnn.com/2011/07/20/deep-sinkhole-opens-under-womans-bed/?npt=NP1 (http://news.blogs.cnn.com/2011/07/20/deep-sinkhole-opens-under-womans-bed/?npt=NP1)
The first step out of bed could have been a big one.
A woman in Guatemala City reports that a sinkhole, 40 feet deep and almost 3 feet across, opened under her bed Monday.
"When we heard the loud boom we thought a gas canister from a neighboring home had exploded, or there had been a crash on the street," Inocenta Hernandez, 65, said in an Agence France-Presse report (http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5hEAjEe8vStGMOiswAxDcxXi_d_DQ?docId=CNG.832a4bd5d343e4861527751b5e0d9c50.ad1).
"We rushed out to look and saw nothing. A gentleman told me that the noise came from my house, and we searched until we found it under my bed," AFP quotes Hernandez as saying.
The area is prone to sinkholes.
In May 2010, a sinkhole about 60 feet across and 100 feet deep (http://www.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/americas/06/01/guatemala.sinkhole/index.html) opened in the area, swallowing buildings and an intersection.
In 2007, another sinkhole claimed three lives in Barrio San Antonio in Guatemala City.
Hernandez told AFP that she is thankful the surprise under her bed wasn't any bigger.
"Thank God there are only material damages, because my grandchildren were running around the house, into that room and out to the patio," AFP quoted her as saying.


What's fascinating with that last one is that the tiles are punched through as well.

If it was just a regular cave-in, the tiles would have dropped... squarely... or not at all as happens with water erosion under pavements: the hole below is much larger than the one in the pavement. Not here!

Anyone with a rational explanation?

[TargeT]

explanation is photoshop IMO ;)

(and I"m LOOKING for these to be real)

[Maia Gabrial]

These sinkholes don't look like they're naturally made. TOO circular and too perfectly formed....IMO there's a technology being used to get more of our valuable resources out....

[Hervé]

explanation is photoshop IMO ;)

(and I"m LOOKING for these to be real)

LOL

Now could the loud "boom," which sent everyone out in the street looking for its cause, have been photoshoped too?

[Operator]

The outdoor ones always seem to be on a road crossing section ....

[ghostrider]

forgive my spelling it's called molecular dissasosiation weapon. they have this weapon been using it all over. they created it to fight against the plazma beam weapon, one side fires the mda and it stops the plazma weapon's beam. thus the secret space war. any hoo thats my five cents =stray bullet.

[ErichSirem]

I am pretty sure these types of sinkholes are real because I remember it being broadcasted on several news stations months ago. And to be cautious yes everything on the news is not honest a lot isn't but usually the actual event they report is real, the spin is where the lie comes in. I am not sure but i think the spin real or not was something geologic doing with the weight of the building and empty earth?

Here is a CNN about the Guatemala sink hole -
http://articles.cnn.com/2010-06-01/world/guatemala.sinkhole_1_diameter-sinkhole-prensa-libre-guatemala-city?_s=PM:WORLD

Here is Video of the sink hole and the news report -
http://tv.gawker.com/5552445/cnn-news-anchors-question-validity-of-terrifying-guatemalan-sinkhole
This real anomaly is taken at many angles.

[Hervé]

forgive my spelling it's called molecular dissasosiation weapon. they have this weapon been using it all over. they created it to fight against the plazma beam weapon, one side fires the mda and it stops the plazma weapon's beam. thus the secret space war. any hoo thats my five cents =stray bullet.

Thanks for the input ghost.

However I have a hard time with that explanation as, although not mentioned, the bed itself survived this demolecularization... as it was discovered "under the bed."

[Sidney]

Gawd, as a kid I always thought the boogy man lived under my bed, but this is rediculous. Maybe he's down that hole somewhere.:bolt:

[cloud9]

The second sinkhole, the one under the bed was a well in the past I guess, if you look carefully you'll see the wall made of bricks. Mi guess is that somebody covered it to build the hose and forgot to tell there was a hole there.

[Operator]

second sinkhole ... checkered board floor ?
Maybe dungeon's under an Illuminati house :eek:

[GlassSteagallfan]

The second sinkhole, the one under the bed was a well in the past I guess, if you look carefully you'll see the wall made of bricks. Mi guess is that somebody covered it to build the hose and forgot to tell there was a hole there.

Good call Cloud9! I've seen a few instances where a well was covered and built over. The dampness may have depleted the cover over time and the 'boom' was just the materials falling to the bottom.

[Hervé]

The second sinkhole, the one under the bed was a well in the past I guess, if you look carefully you'll see the wall made of bricks. Mi guess is that somebody covered it to build the hose and forgot to tell there was a hole there.

It does have that look of a brick wall although I see it more as rock strata or a landfill. There is still the loud boom that came from that house with no other damage than the hole....

The trouble with a former well is that the tiles were driectly on top of its wall...

[Dawn]

You can see lots of images of these if you Google 'sinkhole' and then click on 'Google Images'. They have been going on for a long time, as some have full sized trees growing inside them. Most are perfectly round. And... to me they do not look natural. A beam or weapon of some kind would likely make something with a perfectly round shape and absolutely straight sides. Just try making a simple straight sided hole with a shovel... it is very hard... the earth doesn't seem to like that shape and usually will not hold it. Put this one up to something we may never know about. Any remote viewers out there who would like to become interested in sink holes and report back to us all.

[Hervé]

Another, better, view of that hole in the bedroom floor:


8933




A 2010 sinkhole also in the same area measuring 20m wide and about 30m deep (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/jun/03/guatemala-city-sinkhole) swallowed a three-story building and a nearby house.
Police, members of the country's natural disaster office and water utility company officials have all visited the scene of the latest hole.
Sinkholes, formed by natural erosion, can be gradual but are often sudden. Guatemala (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/guatemala) City is built on volcanic deposits and especially prone to sinkholes. They are often blamed on leaky sewers or on heavy rain.

[RMorgan]

Check out this, guys!

40-foot Sinkhole Opens Up Under Woman's Bed

GUATEMALA CITY, Guatemala (CNN) -- The first step out of bed could have been a big one. A woman in Guatemala City reports that a sinkhole, 40 feet deep and almost 3 feet across, opened under her bed Monday.

"When we heard the loud boom we thought a gas canister from a neighboring home had exploded, or there had been a crash on the street," Inocenta Hernandez, 65, said in an Agence France-Presse report.

"We rushed out to look and saw nothing. A gentleman told me that the noise came from my house, and we searched until we found it under my bed," AFP quotes Hernandez as saying.

Original link with picture here:

http://www.fark.com/cgi/go.pl?i=6405066&s=1

[Artemesia]

Does anyone else find it ODD that the 'sinkhole' came with an explosion sound, is perfectly round and symmetrical, and is perhaps not-so-coincidentally shown against the classic freemason black-and-white checkerboard floor tile pattern?

[Lost Soul]

Concur. It is rather peculiar that those sinkholes are almost perfectly round and are vertical. Are the Lemurians coming back to the surface?

[Lancelot]

I would have to say that IMO the second picture looks incredibly fake for a number of reasons.
1- The hole is perfectly cut through the tiles
2- The floor is laid directly onto the sub floor of solid stone/ bricks complete with mortar- similar to a well
3- Its far too similar to the film/series The Prisoner!
Don't focus on the Implanted bulls**t - accentuate the positive :)

[Hervé]

I would have to say that IMO the second picture looks incredibly fake for a number of reasons.
1- The hole is perfectly cut through the tiles
2- The floor is laid directly onto the sub floor of solid stone/ bricks complete with mortar- similar to a well
3- Its far too similar to the film/series The Prisoner!
Don't focus on the Implanted bulls**t - accentuate the positive :)

See from the top of the merged threads...

... the "loud Boom" wasn't photoshopped, the ground is volcanic +/_ landfill and the tiles directly laid on it. I don't think that even the most crooked of floor tilers would lay tiles directly on top of a well.

The point of the starting thread is that the tiles were neatly cut and didn't fall off like tiles would do in a hole. The hole was somehow "punched" through but the bed was left intact... until the hole was discovered underneath it.

Any rational explanation(s)?

[Kerrigan]

captivating!! very unusual! I would be creeped out having that under my bed!

[Lancelot]

I would have to say that IMO the second picture looks incredibly fake for a number of reasons.
1- The hole is perfectly cut through the tiles
2- The floor is laid directly onto the sub floor of solid stone/ bricks complete with mortar- similar to a well
3- Its far too similar to the film/series The Prisoner!
Don't focus on the Implanted bulls**t - accentuate the positive :)

See from the top of the merged threads...

... the "loud Boom" wasn't photoshopped, the ground is volcanic +/_ landfill and the tiles directly laid on it. I don't think that even the most crooked of floor tilers would lay tiles directly on top of a well.

The point of the starting thread is that the tiles were neatly cut and didn't fall off like tiles would do in a hole. The hole was somehow "punched" through but the bed was left intact... until the hole was discovered underneath it.

Any rational explanation(s)?

Here are 2 rational explanations for the second picture-
- It is a photoshop job.
-The floor was laid on top of an old well and a hole cut through the tiles to reveal a circular brick wall underneath.
The fact that the tiles were 'punched' through isn't evidence of it being genuine- ever tried to break a tile in a perfect curve? this is only possible by a cutting machine. There is no evidence of the loud boom apart from what the lady tells us.
What is interesting is that no other news agencies covered the story?? Don't believe everything you see on CNN!

[Hervé]

[...]
... ever tried to break a tile in a perfect curve? this is only possible by a cutting machine.

Exactly!


There is no evidence of the loud boom apart from what the lady tells us.


Except the rest of the community out on the street looking for the origin of the explosion.


What is interesting is that no other news agencies covered the story?? Don't believe everything you see on CNN!

The CNN references an initial Agence France-Presse report. However, agreed on most of CNN reportings.

Besides, I don't see any evidence of Photoshop, where are yours?

Here is a better shot at that "Brick-wall" layer underlying the town. That's a mighty big well every construction worker ignored!


9013

[Lost Soul]

I still think the Lemurians are coming up for Round II. Before they were driven underground by the Atlanteans, they had technology far in advance of what we have today.

[Hervé]

I still think the Lemurians are coming up for Round II. Before they were driven underground by the Atlanteans, they had technology far in advance of what we have today.

All right, if that were the case, I fail to follow the Lemurians' logic of using their super advanced technology to poke holes of different size randomly; why not beam themselves up directly...?

I must admit that the safest place to come out of would be from under grandma's bed... but not from right out of the town center...

[Lancelot]

Now that is a sinkhole!
Clearly visibly rock strata- most likely caused by no proper under-tarmac drainage- the water has to go somewhere and it is always down- in a circular motion.

I do however have my doubts about the under the bed sinkhole mainly due to the 9 clearly visible brick courses with mortar in between forming the hole. I see this in my job and a know a brick wall when I see one.

I generally don't trust Agence France-Presse reports as they do tend to come out with a lot of disinformation never substantiated with anything more than a photo and a dubious eyewitness report which gets sold to a single broadcaster who covers the story and cites them as the source.

But I may be wrong - perhaps there is something more sinister going on here?

[Hervé]

[...]
I do however have my doubts about the under the bed sinkhole mainly due to the 9 clearly visible brick courses with mortar in between forming the hole. I see this in my job and a know a brick wall when I see one.



Fair.

Here are closer pics of that "Brick layering":

Same Guatemala City, 2007 hole...


9018


9015


9019



Now, for the 2010 hole, same city:


9016


9017



The red-orangey "Bick wall" is a volcanic layer of uneven thickness underlying the entire city.


If not, then I'd to say that the city's ancestors were very mighty well-builders! Not the least afraid of digging mighty wells.

[Hervé]

Errr... more oh these holes in the neighborhood...



Deep Sinkhole Found under Woman's Bed in Guatemala City (PHOTOS)
http://www.ibtimes.com/articles/184473/20110721/sinkhole-guatemala-city-under-bed-photos-elderly-woman.htm (http://www.ibtimes.com/articles/184473/20110721/sinkhole-guatemala-city-under-bed-photos-elderly-woman.htm)

Jul 21, 2011 11:25 AM EDT
On Monday, a 65-year-old woman in Guatemala City was shocked by a loud boom, which she assumed was the explosion of a neighbor's gas canister. She was even more surprised to find that it was a 40 feet deep, 32 inch wide sinkhole that had formed beneath her bed.
It's the kind of stuff you find in scary movies, but never think could actually happen in your own home. As a kid, you're told "don't look under the bed," but you'd never expect to find a giant chasm in the earth.
Sinkholes are actually more common than you may think, particularly in Guatemala City. The area is prone to these gaping holes because it is built on volcanic deposits and has a heavy annual rainfall. The people of Guatemala City are increasingly unable to trust what's beneath their feet.
A giant sinkhole that formed nearby in 2007 was 150m deep and swallowed several homes and a truck, killing three people. Local residents were forced to evacuate for days.
A 2010 sinkhole also in the same area measuring 20m wide and about 30m deep swallowed a three-story building and a nearby house.
Sinkholes can form gradually, but are often sudden and unexpected.


9020


9021

A sinkhole is seen developing inside a property that houses ten families in Guatemala City June 18, 2010. The hole, which is currently two meters wide and four meters deep, is caused by a failing drainage system that has produced two other, much bigger sinkholes.
Source: REUTERS / Daniel Leclair

[Hervé]

A final argument against the well made of layers of red bricks right underneath the floor tiles is simply that there's no clay around to manufacture the necessary Terra-cotta; only volcanic material that hasn't yet altered into clay.

I f one takes a good look at the city constructions, most of them are made of concrete/cement blocks.

[Hervé]

Well, well, well... (pun intended)

When I started this thread, I had no idea if there were even a possible, plausible explanation for such a punch-through hole as in the bedroom; especially with an accompanying loud boom.

I started by asking what could make such a loud noise that wasn't a chemical/fuel explosion and thought "well, thunder does that by creating a sudden vacuum and closing/filling of it."

So, the gears were cranking at the back of my mind around that idea ever since I called for any rational explanations.

Then, yesterday I recalled my early chemistry workshops of last century and that quite strong vacuum created out of a water tap... vacuum... running water... what if it were an implosion?

What if instead of popping a cork, the cork was sucked in... same sound from differential pressure!

I looked at the schematics of this simplest of vacuum pump (aspirator):


90379038


Looked at more pictures of these sinkholes and found these ones:


90399040


... and the geometry fits!


For whatever reasons, the flow of water at the bottom of the pit created the necessary ventury effect and sucked in the "cork."


That's the tiled floor in the case of the bedroom hole.


CQFD!


The conclusion is that there is an underground river flowing underneath Guatemala City which gets pretty strong after heavy rains, strong enough to literally suck-in the ground above.

In my younger years I would have written a paper on this but now... I'll leave it to yung'uns to pick up on this.

[Ammit]

If these are indeed natural sink holes then why are they all round?.

My thoughts are, if these were here long before any towns, houses or roads were built over the top of them, then why are they showing themselves now?

If they are caused by some sort of beam technology then why test it in a busy area, there are plenty of open areas where this type of research could be carried out virtually unnoticed?

If it was something coming up from the depths then surely there would be debris lying around the surface. If something under my house was hollow and caved in, I would not expect to see an almost perfect round hole, i would expect to see jagged edges where the ground broke.

IMHO, these were either here long ago or been created from something above.

Ammit

[Hervé]

If these are indeed natural sink holes then why are they all round?.

My thoughts are, if these were here long before any towns, houses or roads were built over the top of them, then why are they showing themselves now?

If they are caused by some sort of beam technology then why test it in a busy area, there are plenty of open areas where this type of research could be carried out virtually unnoticed?


IMHO, these were either here long ago or been created from something above.

Ammit

Very interesting question.

My take on it is that whether air or water, any flow of such creates eddies. That is, circular whirls.

When water drains with a certain speed, it also whirls down, hence -- again -- circular motion and erosion.

A river flowing underground would speed up up the flow of water coming down from subsurface or surface through the ventury effect explained above.

My bet is that such round pits are sitting atop a natural ventury geometry created by a strong underground flow/river.

The beam technology is ruled out by bed plus rest of the house left intact.


If it was something coming up from the depths then surely there would be debris lying around the surface. If something under my house was hollow and caved in, I would not expect to see an almost perfect round hole, i would expect to see jagged edges where the ground broke.

That's the whole point why I started this thread: The tiles showing an almost perfect circular cut as if punched through which is quite a feat to perform even for a master tiler, as a poster here pointed out. Yet it's there and was associated with a loud noise.

[Hervé]

Here's more data on the peculiar geologic environment of those holes:



Don't Call The Guatemala Sinkhole a Sinkhole (http://news.discovery.com/earth/dont-call-the-guatemala-sinkhole-a-sinkhole.html)


Analysis by Michael Reilly (http://news.discovery.com/contributors/michael-reilly/)
Wed Jun 2, 2010 09:34 PM ET

The giant sinkhole (http://news.discovery.com/earth/guatemala-sinkhole.html) that opened beneath downtown Guatemala City over the weekend is all the rage right now. There's just one problem: it isn't a sinkhole.


"Sure, it looks a lot like a sinkhole," geologist Sam Bonis told Discovery News from his home in Guatemala. "And a whale looks a lot like a fish, but calling it one would be very misleading."


Instead, Bonis prefers the term "piping feature" -- a decidedly less sexy label for the 100-foot deep, 66-foot wide circular chasm. But it's an important distinction, he maintains, because "sinkholes" refer to areas where bedrock is solid but has been eaten away by groundwater, forming a geological Swiss cheese (http://news.discovery.com/earth/florida-limestone-swiss-cheese.html) whose contours are nearly impossible to predict.


The situation beneath the country's capital is far different, and more dangerous.


The lion's share of the city is built on pumice fill -- ash flows made up of loose, gravel-like particles deposited during ancient volcanic eruptions. In places, the debris is piled over 600 feet thick, filling up what would otherwise be a v-shaped valley of faulted bedrock. For those peering into the deep dark depths wondering what might be at the bottom, it's either more pumice fill or bedrock. Mixed with a healthy dose of wreckage from the swallowed-up clothing factory (http://news.discovery.com/earth/guatemala-sinkhole.html).


In 2007, a similar hole opened (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17303991/) after a sewage pipe broke pipe just a few blocks from this weekend's disaster. Bonis was part of a team of geologists and engineers brought in to investigate and advise officials on what went wrong.


"Our recommendation was that this could happen again," he recalled. "When you have water flowing from storm water runoff, a sewage pipe, or any kind of strong flow, it eats away at the loose material. We don't know how long it has to go on before it collapses. But once it starts collapsing, God help us."


The Guatemala City metro area is home to nearly 3 million people. Not all of them live on the fill -- Bonis estimates around 1-1.5 million, with the rest perched on the valley walls -- but by mislabeling the feature a sinkhole, it distracts from a dangerous situation that could be mitigated, if not neutralized, by better handling of the city's runoff and waste water.


"I'd hate to have to be in the government right now," Bonis, who worked for the Guatemalan government's Instituto Geografico Nacional for sixteen years, said. "There is an excellent potential for this to happen again. It could happen almost anywhere in the city."
Image: Guatemalan government (http://www.flickr.com/photos/gobiernodeguatemala/); Wikimedia Commons (http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Guatemala_city_aerial_night_b.JPG)

[Hervé]

More infos:



http://flatrock.org.nz/topics/money_politics_law/punching_a_hole_in_the_earth.htm (http://flatrock.org.nz/topics/money_politics_law/punching_a_hole_in_the_earth.htm)
A 330-foot-deep sinkhole opened up before dawn, […] Officials blamed recent rains and an underground sewage flow from a ruptured main for the tragedy. The pit stank, growled and shook the surrounding ground. Water could be heard in the depths. Authorities fear it could widen or other sinkholes open up.





Sources: jwz.livejournal.com (http://jwz.livejournal.com/740924.html) 24 February 2007, shortarmguy.com (http://www.shortarmguy.com/crazyemails.htm)
Residents had heard noises and felt vibrations for weeks.
Since this happened twice in three years, there's a greater risk that it could happen again. Geologist Sam Bonis, who worked in Guatemala's geographical institute for 16 years, claims that it may happen anywhere in the city. The Guatemala sinkholes of 2007 and 2010 caused some buildings to fall down, but relatively few people were hurt. However, that may just make it a matter of time before it happens in an area with more people.

[Ammit]

Ok, I think its pretty obvious that I dont quite follow sink holes or punch holes, but what about Portals????

[Hervé]

Ok, I think its pretty obvious that I dont quite follow sink holes or punch holes, but what about Portals????

Well, in that case I would concede these holes are pretty good portals for rain and running waters... but quite deadly for humans. Uncertain about any other kind of life forms :unsure:

[DeDukshyn]

If these are indeed natural sink holes then why are they all round?.

My thoughts are, if these were here long before any towns, houses or roads were built over the top of them, then why are they showing themselves now?

If they are caused by some sort of beam technology then why test it in a busy area, there are plenty of open areas where this type of research could be carried out virtually unnoticed?

If it was something coming up from the depths then surely there would be debris lying around the surface. If something under my house was hollow and caved in, I would not expect to see an almost perfect round hole, i would expect to see jagged edges where the ground broke.

IMHO, these were either here long ago or been created from something above.

Ammit

It seems to me these holes existed at one point but were filled, then sucked out from underneath as Amzer opinted out. This would easily explain the geometry. If true the question remains, who originally made these holes and why?

[Hervé]

It seems to me these holes existed at one point but were filled, then sucked out from underneath as Amzer opinted out. This would easily explain the geometry. If true the question remains, who originally made these holes and why?

Nicely worded, DeDukshyn!

I presently don't have any data that could prove or disprove such assumption. Just my opinion that pre-existing dug pits of such size in recent volcanic deposits are unlikely.

Other than that, your guess is as good as mine.

[DeDukshyn]

It seems to me these holes existed at one point but were filled, then sucked out from underneath as Amzer opinted out. This would easily explain the geometry. If true the question remains, who originally made these holes and why?

Nicely worded, DeDukshyn!

I presently don't have any data that could prove or disprove such assumption. Just my opinion that pre-existing dug pits of such size in recent volcanic deposits are unlikely.

Other than that, your guess is as good as mine.

After looking at the diagram you posted, occam's razor woulds have us potentially considering a giant underground pump or vacuum pump of sorts ... but that's not much to go on without some supporting evidence. The holes are too perfect to be just sucked down - there has to be a reason they are almost perfectly round ...

[Hervé]

[...]
After looking at the diagram you posted, occam's razor woulds have us potentially considering a giant underground pump or vacuum pump of sorts ... but that's not much to go on without some supporting evidence. The holes are too perfect to be just sucked down - there has to be a reason they are almost perfectly round ...

Indeed, there has to be a reason.

What I suggested:


My take on it is that whether air or water, any flow of such creates eddies. That is, circular whirls.

When water drains with a certain speed, it also whirls down, hence -- again -- circular motion and erosion.

A river flowing underground would speed up up the flow of water coming down from subsurface or surface through the ventury effect explained above.

My bet is that such round pits are sitting atop a natural ventury geometry created by a strong underground flow/river.


Ever seen these round, bowl-shaped cavities in boulders of mountain stream beds and others?

Running water does a fine job eddying away circular cavities in the hardest of materials, why not in loosely consolidated/lithified materials?

For what I know, these giant pits could have developed from natural cracks or from exploration drill holes abraded away via natural sandblasting effect of sand saturated water-eddies.

I am trying to get a webaddress to someone like Sam Bonis or the IGN to get some kind of verifications on this.

[Steven]

Hi Amzer Zo, you just picked up my curiosity.

I remember the news about the large hole in Guatemala City, but didn't really got the curiosity activated at the time, hehe (was probably sleepy). But your thread and especially your theory really interested me. I know that Guatemala City is build upon (only a part of it) an old Mayan city called Kaminaljuyu. I think that these old holes and tunnels, that created the pump effect as you brilliantly explained, were built by the Mayans or even older because the Mayan themselves were living near Olmec sites, their ancestors.

Here from wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaminaljuyu

The known parts of Kaminaljuyu lie on a broad plain beneath roughly the western third of modern Guatemala City (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guatemala_City). The Valley of Guatemala is surrounded by hills which culminate in a string of lofty volcanoes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volcano) to the south. At an altitude of ca. 7,000 feet above sea level, the climate is temperate. Soils are rich because of frequent volcanic eruptions; volcanic ash in the form of hardened tuff reaches depths of several hundred meters in and around Kaminaljuyu, and deep clefts or barrancas mark the landscape.

Hydraulics

In the last twenty years, archaeologists have studied sophisticated water control systems in the southern precincts of "Miraflores" Kaminaljuyu, indicating an extensive bureaucracy and concomitant social hierarchical must have been in place to supervise and maintain the hydraulics.[16] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaminaljuyu#cite_note-15) These systems date to the "Miraflores" and endured through to the end of the Preclassic.


Just to point out another corner to investigate.

Namaste, Steven

[DeDukshyn]

Amzer,

The only issue I have with the vortex theory is this: in order for the diameter of the cavity to maintain a constant proportion all the way through scores or even hundreds of feet these criteria must be met:
a) the hardness of the ground must stay at an extremely consistent measurement all the way through the entire cavity - possible, but not very likely to maintain perfectly even erode-ability.
b) the flow of water has to maintain near perfectly equally volume and speed.
c) both A and B must remain constant throughout the duration of the erosion, which in theory could be many many years

Without those three criteria, in my opinion the cavity would not have come out so even in diameter and roundness throughout the entire depth, but would have as you indicated with an example, more of a "bowl" or similar shape.

Althout I'm not dismissing it, conditions would have to be just right ... like a massive, biblical flood state, where the water drained into the water table and caverns over an extended period of time ... hhmmmm that's a thought on it's own ...

¤=[Post Update]=¤

Excellent find Steven! thanks!

[Hervé]

Hi Amzer Zo, you just picked up my curiosity.

I remember the news about the large hole in Guatemala City, but didn't really got the curiosity activated at the time, hehe (was probably sleepy). But your thread and especially your theory really interested me. I know that Guatemala City is build upon (only a part of it) an old Mayan city called Kaminaljuyu. I think that these old holes and tunnels, that created the pump effect as you brilliantly explained, were built by the Mayans or even older because the Mayan themselves were living near Olmec sites, their ancestors.

Here from wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaminaljuyu

The known parts of Kaminaljuyu lie on a broad plain beneath roughly the western third of modern Guatemala City (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guatemala_City). The Valley of Guatemala is surrounded by hills which culminate in a string of lofty volcanoes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volcano) to the south. At an altitude of ca. 7,000 feet above sea level, the climate is temperate. Soils are rich because of frequent volcanic eruptions; volcanic ash in the form of hardened tuff reaches depths of several hundred meters in and around Kaminaljuyu, and deep clefts or barrancas mark the landscape.

Hydraulics

In the last twenty years, archaeologists have studied sophisticated water control systems in the southern precincts of "Miraflores" Kaminaljuyu, indicating an extensive bureaucracy and concomitant social hierarchical must have been in place to supervise and maintain the hydraulics.[16] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaminaljuyu#cite_note-15) These systems date to the "Miraflores" and endured through to the end of the Preclassic.


Just to point out another corner to investigate.

Namaste, Steven

That's a huge corner to look at!

Thanks Steven!

[Hervé]

Amzer,

The only issue I have with the vortex theory is this: in order for the diameter of the cavity to maintain a constant proportion all the way through scores or even hundreds of feet these criteria must be met:
a) the hardness of the ground must stay at an extremely consistent measurement all the way through the entire cavity - possible, but not very likely to maintain perfectly even erode-ability.
b) the flow of water has to maintain near perfectly equally volume and speed.
c) both A and B must remain constant throughout the duration of the erosion, which in theory could be many many years

Without those three criteria, in my opinion the cavity would not have come out so even in diameter and roundness throughout the entire depth, but would have as you indicated with an example, more of a "bowl" or similar shape.

Althout I'm not dismissing it, conditions would have to be just right ... like a massive, biblical flood state, where the water drained into the water table and caverns over an extended period of time ... hhmmmm that's a thought on it's own ...

¤=[Post Update]=¤

Excellent find Steven! thanks!

I agree, differential erosion would occur over a long period of time. Hence... how long did it take for these holes to fully develop? That's where more data are needed, considering these observations from existing sinkholes:



Sinkholes (French, dolines) are topographically closed depressions created by removal of materials downwards through their floors. Loss downwards differentiates them from other types of closed depressions, such as impact craters or deflation hollows that form when material is carried out over the enclosing rims. Four main processes create sinkholes: dissolution of soluble rocks such as salt, gypsum, limestone, and dolostone directly downwards from the surface; collapse of consolidated or partly consolidated rocks into underlying cavities formed by dissolution, compaction, piping, mining, etc.; piping of silts, sands, and gravels grain by grain into smaller cavities (analogous to emptying a sandhopper); and subsidence, the slower settling or sagging of strata into cavities without the large ruptures or total fragmentation that occur in collapses. The term ‘suffosion’ is also used for erosion by the slumping of unconsolidated sediments at the surface into solution cavity below.

The basic shapes of sinkholes are bowls, funnels, or cylindrical shafts, but all of these may be distorted by geological effects, such as elongation along a fracture or orientation down tilted strata. Dimensions range from less than a metre in diameter and depth for the smallest, fresh collapse or suffosion features, up to kilometres in length and hundreds of metres in depth for ancient dissolutional landforms.



Bibliography and More Information about sinkholes

Ford, D. C. and Williams, P. W. (1989) Karst geomorphology (http://science.jrank.org/pages/48136/sinkholes.html##) and hydrology. Chapman and Hall, London.
Waltham, A. C. (1989) Ground subsidence. Blackie, Glasgow.
D. C. Ford


http://science.jrank.org/pages/48136/sinkholes.html#ixzz1TLqbBP5a

[DeDukshyn]

Hmm, these holes just don't look natural to me at all. But in light of Stevens post, perhaps water erosion was used to dig the holes, but in a controlled manner, by the Olmecs or Mayan's assuming they were brilliant but with limited machinary / technology, as to build a type of water distribution / irrigation system for the land? This is sounding pretty good to me. Over the thousands of years the shafts filled, but when the environment became "just right" to activate the "pump/vaccuum" effect ... "pffssht!" the fill dirt gets sucked down.

If I had more time I'd try to disprove this first I think.

[Steven]

These pictures are taken from the Kaminaljuyu archeological site. But notice how little has been already exposed, I bet the old original site goes way below these old mounds and barrows.

http://www.delange.org/Kaminaljuyu/K1.htm

Namaste, Steven

[Hervé]

These pictures are taken from the Kaminaljuyu archeological site. But notice how little has been already exposed, I bet the old original site goes way below these old mounds and barrows.

http://www.delange.org/Kaminaljuyu/K1.htm

Namaste, Steven

Thanks Steven!

That place is rivaling a Swiss cheese!

[DeDukshyn]

These pictures are taken from the Kaminaljuyu archeological site. But notice how little has been already exposed, I bet the old original site goes way below these old mounds and barrows.

http://www.delange.org/Kaminaljuyu/K1.htm

Namaste, Steven

It is of my opinion (and I have done a little research) that the civilizations of South America go back at least 10,000 years if not more. We are led to believe it is much less but if you look at the structures at Macchu Pichu - one can clearly see an original build, thena newer build of far less impressiveness that went over top - these "builds" appear to be seperated by entirely different building methods and culture ... It was there long before the Inca's came, in my opinion.

So I agree with you Steven - we have barely scratched the surface in many of these digs.

[Steven]

...It is of my opinion (and I have done a little research) that the civilizations of South America go back at least 10,000 years if not more. We are led to believe it is much less but if you look at the structures at Macchu Pichu - one can clearly see an original build, thena newer build of far less impressiveness that went over top - these "builds" appear to be separated by entirely different building methods and culture ... It was there long before the Inca's came, in my opinion.

So I agree with you Steven - we have barely scratched the surface in many of these digs.

You must have read about Virginia Steen-Mcintyre and her story; http://s8int.com/hueyatlaco.html 250 to 350 thousands years is pretty much amazing :) Sorry for the off-topic Amzer Zo. Michael Cremo makes an awesome job to present the "forbidden archeology" also; http://www.mcremo.com/

I concur with you, the official theory of mankind migration and evolution is not fitting the hard evidence at all.

Namaste, Steven

[DeDukshyn]

...It is of my opinion (and I have done a little research) that the civilizations of South America go back at least 10,000 years if not more. We are led to believe it is much less but if you look at the structures at Macchu Pichu - one can clearly see an original build, thena newer build of far less impressiveness that went over top - these "builds" appear to be separated by entirely different building methods and culture ... It was there long before the Inca's came, in my opinion.

So I agree with you Steven - we have barely scratched the surface in many of these digs.

You must have read about Virginia Steen-Mcintyre and her story; http://s8int.com/hueyatlaco.html 250 to 350 thousands years is pretty much amazing :) Sorry for the off-topic Amzer Zo. Michael Cremo makes an awesome job to present the "forbidden archeology" also; http://www.mcremo.com/

Namaste, Steven

Never heard of them ... lol ... but I did read a book by Alan Alford called "Gods of the New Millenium" - he tried to redo the entire timeline of history by re-interpreting ancient texts and words for certain cycles that we took to mean years, etc. but it is only in more modern times that the cycles of "Ages" and precessions have dissapeared - the ancients used them and can be proven - his timeline also spanned hundreds of thousands of years ... I'll check out your sources - sounds like good stuff!

Lake Titticaca -- one of my favourite topics. It is THE highest navigable lake in the world, yet somehow it was filled with ocean at one point. This can be seen in the life in the lake - much of it is saltwater life that has adapted to freshwater - the lake has a turnover rate of something like 4000 years (a big lake - not much drainage), so in my opinion the ocean life was able to adapt within that timeframe to fresh water - it is still a rather salty lake. Just throwing that out there to take advantage of the off topic!

[Hervé]

Looking back at this picture:


9072



I don't see any layering besides the one at the top (the "cork") and the recent water erosion on the hole side doesn't show any unevenness. Hence, it doesn't seem that it took that long to carve these vertical channels into the pit's wall.


The pit's bottom does show a larger cavity where, presumably, the Agatha storm water ran through. Considering there's also a three-storey building somewhere in there.

[DeDukshyn]

It really does look "dug out" to me ...


Edit:
And you can see the channels where water has been running down into already - notice along the sides - indicating a weaker point at the sides - but I think we got that established as these being pre - made, then filled.

[Hervé]

It really does look "dug out" to me ...


Edit:
And you can see the channels where water has been running down into already - notice along the sides - indicating a weaker point at the sides - but I think we got that established as these being pre - made, then filled.

First, where was that established?

Second, that "we" doesn't include me, yet.

[Steven]

...First, where was that established?

Second, that "we" doesn't include me, yet.

Ah! So we must keep digging! :)

I can't help but it remembers me of a very popular quote: "You ask for proof? You must be desperate!" :) Teasing you of course.

Namaste, Steven

[DeDukshyn]

It really does look "dug out" to me ...


Edit:
And you can see the channels where water has been running down into already - notice along the sides - indicating a weaker point at the sides - but I think we got that established as these being pre - made, then filled.

First, where was that established?

Second, that "we" doesn't include me, yet.

Sorry about that, lol,
I meant as far as where we can be at with whatever he have in our discussion, I have heard no better alternative as to how these form perfectly round not just on one end but throughout the entire depth of hundreds of feet - I have not seen this type of erosion with such consistency any where else, the holes look dug, you indicated it could have been sucked down with a type of pump effect, this seems most plausible in a situation where the ground was previously dug - then filled, this makes your pump theory work far better, and water distribution and irrigation was something the ancients have been incredibly ingenious with in other examples, I'm thinking there would be motivation in manipulating the water table with a pump / vacuum like effect for the purpose of irrigation / water distribution, and if they had to dig massive well shafts to do it - they would have found a way. Steven's find rather supports some of that.

Might be 100% wrong, but I'm still waiting on some better explanation - till then, it's a great mind exercise!

[Hervé]

Here is what carved these channels down the pit's side:

9073


9074


... recent rain running off the street as can be distinguished by the "wet" print along the channels.

[DeDukshyn]

Here is what carved these channels down the pit's side:

9073


9074


... recent rain running off the street as can be distinguished by the "wet" print along the channels.

awesome - notice the intersect of where the water first found the point of least resistance - from each side of the hole - forms a perfect circle, more evidence it was there before. IMHO.

[DeDukshyn]

http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?25792-Sinkholes-the-punched-through-kind&p=272126&viewfull=1#post272126

In this picture - notice how many water streams there are - all in a perfect circle ... can't be random ... just where the water found a lesser resistant path.

[Hervé]

It really does look "dug out" to me ...


Edit:
And you can see the channels where water has been running down into already - notice along the sides - indicating a weaker point at the sides - but I think we got that established as these being pre - made, then filled.

First, where was that established?

Second, that "we" doesn't include me, yet.

Sorry about that, lol,
I meant as far as where we can be at with whatever he have in our discussion, I have heard no better alternative as to how these form perfectly round not just on one end but throughout the entire depth of hundreds of feet - I have not seen this type of erosion with such consistency any where else, the holes look dug, you indicated it could have been sucked down with a type of pump effect, this seems most plausible in a situation where the ground was previously dug - then filled, this makes your pump theory work far better, and water distribution and irrigation was something the ancients have been incredibly ingenious with in other examples, I'm thinking there would be motivation in manipulating the water table with a pump / vacuum like effect for the purpose of irrigation / water distribution, and if they had to dig massive well shafts to do it - they would have found a way. Steven's find rather supports some of that.

Might be 100% wrong, but I'm still waiting on some better explanation - till then, it's a great mind exercise!

As I said, your guess as good as mine, no sweat about that! :yo:

If you refer back to post #44, "cylindrical" sinkholes do exist world wide...

¤=[Post Update]=¤



...First, where was that established?

Second, that "we" doesn't include me, yet.

Ah! So we must keep digging! :)

I can't help but it remembers me of a very popular quote: "You ask for proof? You must be desperate!" :) Teasing you of course.

Namaste, Steven

............... :pound:

[DeDukshyn]

"If you refer back to post #44, "cylindrical" sinkholes do exist world wide... "

Not disputing that, but this particular one seems peculiar to me ...

¤=[Post Update]=¤


http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?25792-Sinkholes-the-punched-through-kind&p=272126&viewfull=1#post272126

In this picture - notice how many water streams there are - all in a perfect circle ... can't be random ... just where the water found a lesser resistant path.

oh you were meaning "after the fact" .. I got you now. Had a blonde moment I guess :o

I wonder if there are any good pics right after it formed?

[Hervé]

http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?25792-Sinkholes-the-punched-through-kind&p=272126&viewfull=1#post272126

In this picture - notice how many water streams there are - all in a perfect circle ... can't be random ... just where the water found a lesser resistant path.

Except from under the now swallowed three-storey building...

No rain water run-off from there.

[DeDukshyn]

http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?25792-Sinkholes-the-punched-through-kind&p=272126&viewfull=1#post272126

In this picture - notice how many water streams there are - all in a perfect circle ... can't be random ... just where the water found a lesser resistant path.

Except from under the now swallowed three-storey building...

No rain water run-off from there.

Nah I'm thinking all that happened after the fact now (the water channels)

[Heyoka_11]

I remembered having read in Nexus magazine a few months ago, about a possible correlation between a few sinkholes (including Guatemala City), and CERN's Large Hadron Collider in Geneva, and the "theoretical" black holes that are created there. A good number of heavy hitting members of the scientific community have expressed their concern over this practice.

Here is a short video that Nexus posted, positing a direct link between the two:

p8vyAQdKAvM

To quote briefly from Nexus Magazine, December 2010-January 2011 - Science News edition 1801, pages 49-50:

"Three dimensional orbital simulations, however, show Geneva at 10:51:48 GMT on 31 May 2011 heading directly towards the location of Guatemala City at 4:50:02 GMT on 31 May 2010, at the point where the Earth reaches the same point in space relative to the sun. Such points of equidistance are significant for temporal transfer because, under Contracting Matter Theory, temporally transferred particles or objects disappear at the point of transfer, only to reappear in empty space or even within the Earth, if the planet happens to be in that exact same location relative to the Sun in a different year at the time of transfer."

This edition of Nexus, or just the single edition of Science News, can be downloaded off their site for a small charge, if you would like to investigate further.

[Hervé]

Sinkhole shocks Cumberland Dr. (http://www.tennessean.com/viewart/20120731/WILLIAMSON09/307310046/Sinkhole-shocks-Cumberland-Dr-)


Stacye Sullivan
The Tennessean
Tue, 31 Jul 2012 16:58 CDT




http://www.sott.net/image/image/s5/110061/medium/bilde.jpg (http://www.sott.net/image/image/s5/110061/full/bilde.jpg)
© n/a

After a week of seeking answers regarding the sink hole, homeowners Dean and Trish Parker, of Cumberland Drive, contacted Gerald Moni and his team with Cave Now to investigate the sink hole on July 26. / Stacye Sullivan/The Fairview Observer

On the afternoon of July 19, Fairview resident Trish Parker wanted to get her yard cut before the predicted rain later that evening generated another grass growth spurt. Imagine the shock when Trish and her husband Dean walked outside the next morning to discover what was generated in their side yard was a super-sized sinkhole.

"My wife just cut the grass in that very spot yesterday," explained Dean, as he looked down into the ten-foot-wide hole.

The sinkhole is located along the property line between the Parker's property and neighbors Michael and Jennifer King. It sits approximately 75 feet from the Parker's home and 105 feet from the center line of Cumberland Drive.

The Parkers began making calls and Williamson County Emergency Management arrived on the scene to do an initial assessment, placing caution tape around the sink hole so that nearby neighborhood children would be warned of the danger.

Family friend and local resident Steven Brison came by on Sunday afternoon and rappelled down into the nine-foot wide hole for a closer look.

Brison observed the sink hole was approximately 50 feet deep with underground cave-like rooms and what appeared to be a tunnel. He went into the sinkhole armed with a lot of courage and his iPhone, which enabled him to capture photographs and video of the hole. (See www.fairviewobserver.com (http://www.fairviewobserver.com/)) Brison suggested Dean Parker's new "man cave" was very likely the result of the heavy rain the prior night.



http://www.sott.net/image/image/s5/110062/medium/bilde2.jpg (http://www.sott.net/image/image/s5/110062/full/bilde2.jpg)
© n/a

Phillip Rykwalder with Cave Now checks the rope of Sara Goning as she ascends into the sinkhole on Cumberland Drive. / Stacye Sullivan/The Fairview Observer

The homeowners placed calls to the City of Fairview and Williamson County, but being such a rare occurrence, officials were not able to offer much assistance.

"We need to know who to contact that can come out here and tell us if the ground around the hole or leading to the road is stable," said Dean Parker. "There are kids in this neighborhood, and animals that could just fall in there. Not to mention, it's very close to our house."

After multiple referrals, Parker was directed to contact Gerald Moni with Cave Now, a home-based Nashville business experienced in cave expeditions. Moni was all too happy to come out with a crew of professional cave divers and explore the Parker's sinkhole last Thursday.

Moni determined what appeared in the dark to Brison to be a tunnel leading towards Cumberland Drive was in fact a passage way. But the passage way narrowed to 6 inches upon exploration by cave diver Emily Davis. "That was good to hear," said Trish Parker. The cave divers also noted the largest cave or room was approximately 10 feet by 10 feet wide with an eight-foot ceiling.

Davis also found an 8-foot tunnel that led in the opposite direction of Cumberland Drive towards a neighbor living behind the Parkers on Grammar Drive. The experienced cavers suggested the hole be filled as further rains could only exasperate the problem.

The Parkers say they felt better prepared to deal with "closing down their man cave after speaking with the cave diving team." However, at press time, they were uncertain who would be responsible for actually filling in the hole.

July 2012 began with burn bans and warnings after a state of severe drought. But before it was all said and done, this July became the fourth wettest July in recorded history, according to the Nashville office of the National Weather Service.

The rainfall plot indicates that 5.31 inches of rain fell the night of July 19 in an area that encompasses the Hickman and Williamson County lines. A radius expanding into Fairview shows that most of us received 3.41 to 4.1 inches of rain that night.

Luckily for Trish Parker, she mowed her yard on Thursday before the first drop ever fell.


****************************************************
The above description of a narrow 6" "injector," an expansion chamber and a larger outlet channel fits the geometry of that simplest of "vacuum pump" known as an "aspirator":


[...]

Then, yesterday I recalled my early chemistry workshops of last century and that quite strong vacuum created out of a water tap... vacuum... running water... what if it were an implosion?

What if instead of popping a cork, the cork was sucked in... same sound from differential pressure!

I looked at the schematics of this simplest of vacuum pump (aspirator):


http://projectavalon.net/forum4/attachment.php?attachmentid=9037&d=1311756227http://projectavalon.net/forum4/attachment.php?attachmentid=9038&d=1311756248&thumb=1 (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/attachment.php?attachmentid=9038&d=1311756248)


Looked at more pictures of these sinkholes and found these ones:


90399040


... and the geometry fits!


For whatever reasons, the flow of water at the bottom of the pit created the necessary ventury effect and sucked in the "cork."


That's the tiled floor in the case of the bedroom hole.


QED!


The conclusion is that there is an underground river flowing underneath Guatemala City which gets pretty strong after heavy rains, strong enough to literally suck-in the ground above.



In my younger years I would have written a paper on this but now... I'll leave it to yung'uns to pick up on this.

[Violet]

If you look at the surrounding houses and terrains on the first pic, some of their angles are perfectly untouched...So, whatever it was, it seems to have come out from under the ground...And not the other way.

[Soul Safari]

Sinkholes explained- http://informationfarm.blogspot.co.uk/2010/06/ion-guatemala-portal.html

[Hervé]

Proof of the pudding... yummy!

Walthall County family discovers mysterious hole in yard (http://www.wjtv.com/story/24429582/walthall-county-family-discovers-mysterious-hole-in-yard)

Posted: Jan 13, 2014 3:18 AM RST Updated: Jan 13, 2014 5:39 AM RST By Perrise Thomas - email

(http://WJTV.images.worldnow.com/images/24429582_BG1.jpg)
http://WJTV.images.worldnow.com/images/24429582_BG1.jpg (http://WJTV.images.worldnow.com/images/24429582_BG1.jpg)
Walthall County hole is like a vacuum, and if the family pours water into it, it guzzles it right down.


WALTHALL COUNTY - TYLERTOWN -
A Walthall County family sent us a video Sunday morning of what they call a mysterious hole forming in their yard. The home is on Jayess road in Tylertown, Walthall County.

"We don't know what this is. There's a sink hole in our yard, and it's sucking air." says Max McKenzie.

They say it's like a vacuum, and if they pour water into it, it guzzles it right down.

"I don't know what it is, but we're going to have to do something to find out," says Max. His 14-year-old son, Brad, discovered it.

"I heard noise coming from the ground, I got my ear down there and listened to it," says Brad.



Full article: http://www.wjtv.com/story/24429582/walthall-county-family-discovers-mysterious-hole-in-yard