Being over-positive.

[Tony]

Being over-positive.

Being over-positive can be stressful and can cover up reality, turning reality into something which it is not. It can be misleading, as it is trying to make what is perfect, more perfect.

There is a huge wave of over-positiveness sweeping the modern world. It makes claims which are beyond people's reach. It's wanting to create a new you. It makes a big deal out of itself. It makes many claims.

This is a very subtle business, positivity. There is negativity and there is positivity: they are both fine and useful. But when we get into negative negativity and positive positivity we run into trouble.

Negative negativity is justifying a mistaken view. It is an illusion just turned into delusion.
Positive positivity is justifying a real view. It is turning reality into a ritual.

In ancient Sanskrit text, there are three aspects of our nature described as the three Gunas: Tamas, Rajas and Sattva. Tamas is a sleepy state. Rajas is an active state and Sattva is an awakened state. They are called the three thieves.

Tamas represents dullness. Rajas represents excitement. Sattva represents stillness. It's easy to see that the first two are thieves to our being, but it is not so easy to see in the third - Sattva. It is the clinging to Sattva that takes us down to the other two states. All three states are beneficial, but when we identify with them they become demonic.

This is what meditation is all about – constantly letting go. Depending on our temperament, the negative or positive aspects of our nature can be used. We can use aversion as the path. We can use desire as the path. We can actually use ignorance as the path.

Ignorance is interesting. Ignorance means indifference, don't care, spaced out. Lacking spaciousness. But that can be turned into a spacious, carefree quality.

So we can all work in different ways.
Telling someone else how they should be, is not wise.


Tony

[The One]

Telling someone else how they should be, is not wise

Exactly my friend and lets remember every sixty seconds you spend angry, upset or mad, is a full minute of happiness you'll never get back.Life is short, Occasionally Bend the rules, Forgive quickly, Kiss slowly, Love truly, Laugh uncontrollably, And never regret anything that made you smile.

Life may not be the party we hoped for, but while we're here we should dance xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Great new pic by the way

[Billy]

Yes i agree that many are over positive Tony. The way i see it is this way, We have positive and negative and neutral or ground or earthing. When both positive and negative are in balance we are able to create the spark or light.

But we can have an unbalanced negative or an unbalanced positive, either takes one out of centre and grounding and out of balance.

A balanced positive with a balanced negative is where the centre is found. This helps us stay neutral and grounded while being able to shine the spark of light that is created.

[DoubleHelix]

The keyword here is: Balance.

The first thing I think of when I hear "over-positive" is the New age, love and lighters. Such an imbalance of positivity lures one into a false sense of belief. In addition, they're unknowingly super charging the polar opposite in this game of balance - pure evil. (aka lord sid... lol)

A wise man walks the middle ground coloured by the shades of gray.

[Erich]

Happy Sad Good Bad Up Down Left Right Male Female Plus Minus You Me

[Steven]

I see your point Pie'n'eal, but being over-negative seems rather much more present and spread out in the world, doing much more damage unconsciously.

Namaste, Steven

[Tarka the Duck]

I love the distinction you make between "negativity" and "negative negativity"!

My path has never been the way of 'love and light', although sometimes I wish it was, as it might have been so much easier. There have been times when I have felt as if I was an evil influence when in the company of people who are naturally so gentle and peaceful...but I am just not made that way! It has been a tough path, but I wouldn't have it any other way.

Of course, I don't go out of my way to be what many might term 'negative', and I never have any intention of harming anyone - but I do find the grit in the oyster is of far more use than the pearl...for me, that is just a trinket...

Best wishes
Kathie

[Peace of Mind]

Life is probably the biggest test your soul will ever have to face. Every intelligent being knows the difference between right and wrong…where right is to care for and flourish, while wrong is to harm for selfish gains, it’s really just that simple.

Everyday my life is governed by positivity. Actually, I only witness negativity through the media and other people, so the claim of balance in one’s life (imho) is inaccurate.

Everyday the world and its inhabitants cry out. All life suffers due to humans negative precondition mentality. They have become irrational and hypocrites. The human’s blind arrogance and lack of courage has put them into a state of denial and confusion. They want peace, happiness and well being… but they refuse to believe this can be obtained simply thru their thinking. You can’t expect happiness if you indulge in deeds that spawns pessimism….not unless you feed off negative energy…as so many seem to do unknowingly.

I don’t believe there is suppose to be a balance of both. One side can easily rule the other by choice. What is there really to gain from negativity? We already know what it is so why welcome it if we don’t really want it? I can only see kids using it to grow/ learn from. As adults…we should have learned the differences and exercise responsibility by alleviating the negativity through example/pattern…while lessening the hard lessons of life for the young. All negative traits are taught. If you take all the children in the world and put them together they would not showcase racism, greed, or hate for one another. Through the instincts of survival they will figure it out by recognizing each others abilities and use them to co-exist and prosper. It’s the adults with their trained mentality raising young humans into negative accepting beings.

I believe people accept negativity because they lack love and desire to put in that extra work to get the proper results. Too many of us have become lazy and docile, so much so that they look at unfortunate events as a normal way of life, oblivious that their involvement (or lack of) has very little to do with it…at the same time wishing they never have to go through it themselves….but why does anyone have to?

You recognize your desires/wants because negativity was there to show you the difference. It’s a poke in the ribs telling you/warning you of eminent danger. It’s only there to educate you on what not to do. I see it as a temporary training feature of the matrix. It’s mainly there for young humans to enrich their souls, routing them to their destiny, keeping them on task, showing them evidence of turmoil if they don’t straighten up. We, humans (adults) are wise enough to live with out it but way too many of us love living a negative lifestyle (subconsciously). You can see a great deal of negativity, if not all of it through egotism. As long as we continue to think for self…negativity will be close by.

As of now…our world exhibits an unconstructive society (procrastinators, manipulators, instigators, selfishness, greed) and I don’t see how any of this will benefit anyone, especially if they don’t learn from it. However, if the world was filled with love and positivity so much more can be accomplished…this can’t be said if it was the other way around.

Through pure positivity everyone will respect each other, build with each other, understand each other, educate and raise each other. None of this will ever happen if you allow or even except negativity. I could never tell someone negativity is OK. It may be normal but that’s only because we made it that way…no one/thing did this but us. When encountering anything negative…you’re suppose to learn from it so you won’t have to experience it again. To keep doing so…may be more of a mental issue than anything else. So in essence, the world is suffering because the majority of us are actually rejecting the notion of living together in harmony….whether they know this or not. At times, I wonder if the masses even knows what they want...which can also hint at our confused state of mind.

Peace

[Tarka the Duck]

Hello Peace of Mind - I was wondering if you could please define what you mean by "negative". I think we may be talking at cross purposes here.
Thanks
Kathie

[Flash]

Being over-positive.

Being over-positive can be stressful and can cover up reality, turning reality into something which it is not. It can be misleading, as it is trying to make what is perfect, more perfect.

There is a huge wave of over-positiveness sweeping the modern world. It makes claims which are beyond people's reach. It's wanting to create a new you. It makes a big deal out of itself. It makes many claims.

This is a very subtle business, positivity. There is negativity and there is positivity: they are both fine and useful. But when we get into negative negativity and positive positivity we run into trouble.

Negative negativity is justifying a mistaken view. It is an illusion just turned into delusion.
Positive positivity is justifying a real view. It is turning reality into a ritual.

In ancient Sanskrit text, there are three aspects of our nature described as the three Gunas: Tamas, Rajas and Sattva. Tamas is a sleepy state. Rajas is an active state and Sattva is an awakened state. They are called the three thieves.

Tamas represents dullness. Rajas represents excitement. Sattva represents stillness. It's easy to see that the first two are thieves to our being, but it is not so easy to see in the third - Sattva. It is the clinging to Sattva that takes us down to the other two states. All three states are beneficial, but when we identify with them they become demonic.

This is what meditation is all about – constantly letting go. Depending on our temperament, the negative or positive aspects of our nature can be used. We can use aversion as the path. We can use desire as the path. We can actually use ignorance as the path.

Ignorance is interesting. Ignorance means indifference, don't care, spaced out. Lacking spaciousness. But that can be turned into a spacious, carefree quality.

So we can all work in different ways.
Telling someone else how they should be, is not wise.


Tony

Too much prozac and serotonine re-uptake inhibitors, at least in America. This makes one overly positive:hail:

Not much to do with meditation........:tsk:

[Tony]

Life is probably the biggest test your soul will ever have to face. Every intelligent being knows the difference between right and wrong…where right is to care for and flourish, while wrong is to harm for selfish gains, it’s really just that simple.

Everyday my life is governed by positivity. Actually, I only witness negativity through the media and other people, so the claim of balance in one’s life (imho) is inaccurate.

Everyday the world and its inhabitants cry out. All life suffers due to humans negative precondition mentality. They have become irrational and hypocrites. The human’s blind arrogance and lack of courage has put them into a state of denial and confusion. They want peace, happiness and well being… but they refuse to believe this can be obtained simply thru their thinking. You can’t expect happiness if you indulge in deeds that spawns pessimism….not unless you feed off negative energy…as so many seem to do unknowingly.

I don’t believe there is suppose to be a balance of both. One side can easily rule the other by choice. What is there really to gain from negativity? We already know what it is so why welcome it if we don’t really want it? I can only see kids using it to grow/ learn from. As adults…we should have learned the differences and exercise responsibility by alleviating the negativity through example/pattern…while lessening the hard lessons of life for the young. All negative traits are taught. If you take all the children in the world and put them together they would not showcase racism, greed, or hate for one another. Through the instincts of survival they will figure it out by recognizing each others abilities and use them to co-exist and prosper. It’s the adults with their trained mentality raising young humans into negative accepting beings.

I believe people accept negativity because they lack love and desire to put in that extra work to get the proper results. Too many of us have become lazy and docile, so much so that they look at unfortunate events as a normal way of life, oblivious that their involvement (or lack of) has very little to do with it…at the same time wishing they never have to go through it themselves….but why does anyone have to?

You recognize your desires/wants because negativity was there to show you the difference. It’s a poke in the ribs telling you/warning you of eminent danger. It’s only there to educate you on what not to do. I see it as a temporary training feature of the matrix. It’s mainly there for young humans to enrich their souls, routing them to their destiny, keeping them on task, showing them evidence of turmoil if they don’t straighten up. We, humans (adults) are wise enough to live with out it but way too many of us love living a negative lifestyle (subconsciously). You can see a great deal of negativity, if not all of it through egotism. As long as we continue to think for self…negativity will be close by.

As of now…our world exhibits an unconstructive society (procrastinators, manipulators, instigators, selfishness, greed) and I don’t see how any of this will benefit anyone, especially if they don’t learn from it. However, if the world was filled with love and positivity so much more can be accomplished…this can’t be said if it was the other way around.

Through pure positivity everyone will respect each other, build with each other, understand each other, educate and raise each other. None of this will ever happen if you allow or even except negativity. I could never tell someone negativity is OK. It may be normal but that’s only because we made it that way…no one/thing did this but us. When encountering anything negative…you’re suppose to learn from it so you won’t have to experience it again. To keep doing so…may be more of a mental issue than anything else. So in essence, the world is suffering because the majority of us are actually rejecting the notion of living together in harmony….whether they know this or not. At times, I wonder if the masses even knows what they want...which can also hint at our confused state of mind.

Peace

Dear Peace of mind,


The negative emotions are part of the constructs of a 'self'. They can actually be used to find our way to our true nature.
On a basic level the emotionadage bad things!
On the next level we can find an antidote.
On the next level they are medicine.
On the final level they do not exist.

We all work in a different ways and levels, that is why we can talk at cross purposes and never find a solution.
That is why we have to be wise when talking of such matters.
Philosophers will never agree, Siddhis will always agree.
Thank you for the peace of your mind.

Tony

[Tony]

One of the problems with being over positive is believing you are on the side of the good.
Therefore those others are bad. It creates and us and them.
There is not much distance between, not liking - disliking - aversion - hatred.
Socrates said, "I am a murderer, a thief, a liar. But I know it".
All emotions are within us and control us, but we do not have to let them.

Empathy is knowing how someone else feels. We know how it feels!

[Jake]

One of the problems with being over positive is believing you are on the side of the good.
Therefore those others are bad. It creates and us and them.
There is not much distance between, not liking - disliking - aversion - hatred.
Socrates said, "I am a murderer, a thief, a liar. But I know it".
All emotions are within us and control us, but we do not have to let them.

Empathy is knowing how someone else feels. We know how it feels!

Well said, my friend. Creating and 'us and them' should be avoided in all that we do. We have created too much divisiveness between each other (as a race) already. Learning to control emotions will create a space of balance. And I believe that that is much needed. Thank you for this post,,, pie'n'eal,, I felt it to the core of me.

It reminds me of a song lyric... "Us, and them,,,,, and after all,,,,, We're only ordinary men."
Jake.

[Jayke]

My interpretation from reading your opening post is that...

being anything is fine, as long as we aren't attached to anything...being overly positive is fine...as long as we aren't attached to that state...like riding a wave, sometimes we'll have high moments, sometimes we'll come crashing back to earth and have occasions where we're overly negative...sometimes we'll just float at the mid-point before being caught up in a wave again that launches us off to the highs and the cycle repeats.

Isn't that what just being is all about...being in flow with the natural rhythms and cycles of life...which begs the question, who are we to decide when we or someone else is being overly positive, who are we to decide when a person is being attached to that state, how do we know that by tomorrow they won't have reached the peak and started flowing down back towards balance again. Aren't we the ones being attached for noticing such attachments in the first place...I like to play a game as I'm moving through the world, something I learned on a forum like this many years ago...pretend everyone else in the world is enlightened and with everything they do, everything they be...they're all teaching me to join them in enlightenment...

everyone around me has mastered the art of just being without attachment...some of them are experiencing the lows, others are experiencing the highs but they're all just being the best they know how in any given moment...it's my job to learn from both and experience both as much as possible so that I can grow in my experiential wisdom regarding the positive and negative aspects of life.

Maybe all we need to ask ourselves is what is it like to just be...in the world...with no past, no future, no sense of self, just enjoying the wave of the moment as it washes and rinses over us...without attachment there is no judgement of negative and positive...only the unfolding of ever new and fresh experience...so to expand on your closing statement


Telling someone else how they should be, is not wise.

I'd say judging someone else for how they're being is not wise either...so I agree with you that it all comes back to learning how we can let go and just be.

[Peace of Mind]

Hello Peace of Mind - I was wondering if you could please define what you mean by "negative". I think we may be talking at cross purposes here.
Thanks
Kathie

To be negative is to harm.

On another note, not necessarily on topic.

Knowing that we are only here for a brief moment kind of confirms (for me) that my temporary existence here is just a test. To see how miraculous we are and can be is quite riveting but for something so phenomenal (humans) to only be here shortly tells me there is much more to experience once I’m finished here. I don’t see our significance, our potential, and our minds ending here in such a short lifespan. I think in order for me to move to a more pleasant complex system/realm I need to understand this one first (like grade school).

Lets just say Heaven and Hell are real. I have always visualized them as being a state of mind. Just like sleeping, your thoughts/spirits carry into the other realm. If your mind is heavy with negativity you will have nightmares, and vice versus. I suspect dreaming is similar to death…where the mind carries over what it’s use to…but in a place where manifestation is rapid and the canvas of creation is on a much broader scale. This is what hell and heaven is to me.

Here, we create our afterlife through our subconscious. Our subconscious is designed in this realm by the way we perceive life. It’s very hard for me to expect anything of pleasure elsewhere if I can’t achieve it or in the least recognize it fully here. I know the dead tells no tales, but the pros seem to out weigh the cons in all realms when you look at it logically.

Peace

¤=[Post Update]=¤

Tony[/QUOTE]

Too much prozac and serotonine re-uptake inhibitors, at least in America. This makes one overly positive:hail:

Not much to do with meditation........:tsk:[/QUOTE]

haha...

Say no to drugs, specifically the ones handed to you by the FDA. They will hook you and have you medicated on other drugs due to side effects of the first one. The body heals itself if you let it. Drugs don’t heal; they only assist you in tolerating the pain of healing. In fact they make your immune system weaker and dependant because the body was unable to focus properly due to fighting foreign contaminants known as diseases and medication. How can the body design defenses when the doctor is running interference. Examples: The nose produces mucus to trap the foreign agents so you can spit, sneeze, or cough it out. Fevers exist because the body is fighting off the diseases, perhaps by cooking it. The doctor prescribes you an expensive drug that attacks the symptoms (runny nose, fever) not the disease, there’s no money in a cure…and if there is you will have to give up an arm and leg for it. The doctor will give you a vitamin pill with a long smart sounding name often used to trick you into thinking its official and will heal you. All you have to do is believe in the Dr’s plack on the wall and their words, the placebo effect will do the rest.
Have faith in yourself, your body and have patience in order to let the body do what it does best…and that’s to take care of your soul while you’re here. The last drug I’ve taken was over a decade ago…and that happen to be a vitamin.

Peace

[Peace of Mind]

Life is probably the biggest test your soul will ever have to face. Every intelligent being knows the difference between right and wrong…where right is to care for and flourish, while wrong is to harm for selfish gains, it’s really just that simple.

Everyday my life is governed by positivity. Actually, I only witness negativity through the media and other people, so the claim of balance in one’s life (imho) is inaccurate.

Everyday the world and its inhabitants cry out. All life suffers due to humans negative precondition mentality. They have become irrational and hypocrites. The human’s blind arrogance and lack of courage has put them into a state of denial and confusion. They want peace, happiness and well being… but they refuse to believe this can be obtained simply thru their thinking. You can’t expect happiness if you indulge in deeds that spawns pessimism….not unless you feed off negative energy…as so many seem to do unknowingly.

I don’t believe there is suppose to be a balance of both. One side can easily rule the other by choice. What is there really to gain from negativity? We already know what it is so why welcome it if we don’t really want it? I can only see kids using it to grow/ learn from. As adults…we should have learned the differences and exercise responsibility by alleviating the negativity through example/pattern…while lessening the hard lessons of life for the young. All negative traits are taught. If you take all the children in the world and put them together they would not showcase racism, greed, or hate for one another. Through the instincts of survival they will figure it out by recognizing each others abilities and use them to co-exist and prosper. It’s the adults with their trained mentality raising young humans into negative accepting beings.

I believe people accept negativity because they lack love and desire to put in that extra work to get the proper results. Too many of us have become lazy and docile, so much so that they look at unfortunate events as a normal way of life, oblivious that their involvement (or lack of) has very little to do with it…at the same time wishing they never have to go through it themselves….but why does anyone have to?

You recognize your desires/wants because negativity was there to show you the difference. It’s a poke in the ribs telling you/warning you of eminent danger. It’s only there to educate you on what not to do. I see it as a temporary training feature of the matrix. It’s mainly there for young humans to enrich their souls, routing them to their destiny, keeping them on task, showing them evidence of turmoil if they don’t straighten up. We, humans (adults) are wise enough to live with out it but way too many of us love living a negative lifestyle (subconsciously). You can see a great deal of negativity, if not all of it through egotism. As long as we continue to think for self…negativity will be close by.

As of now…our world exhibits an unconstructive society (procrastinators, manipulators, instigators, selfishness, greed) and I don’t see how any of this will benefit anyone, especially if they don’t learn from it. However, if the world was filled with love and positivity so much more can be accomplished…this can’t be said if it was the other way around.

Through pure positivity everyone will respect each other, build with each other, understand each other, educate and raise each other. None of this will ever happen if you allow or even except negativity. I could never tell someone negativity is OK. It may be normal but that’s only because we made it that way…no one/thing did this but us. When encountering anything negative…you’re suppose to learn from it so you won’t have to experience it again. To keep doing so…may be more of a mental issue than anything else. So in essence, the world is suffering because the majority of us are actually rejecting the notion of living together in harmony….whether they know this or not. At times, I wonder if the masses even knows what they want...which can also hint at our confused state of mind.

Peace

Dear Peace of mind,


The negative emotions are part of the constructs of a 'self'. They can actually be used to find our way to our true nature.
On a basic level the emotionadage bad things!
On the next level we can find an antidote.
On the next level they are medicine.
On the final level they do not exist.

We all work in a different ways and levels, that is why we can talk at cross purposes and never find a solution.
That is why we have to be wise when talking of such matters.
Philosophers will never agree, Siddhis will always agree.
Thank you for the peace of your mind.

Tony

Fair enough, I do see your point.

However, what I write is not only from my experience and observation but presents clear common sense to those seeking the kind of change spoken so freely around here. Ultimately, the decision will be up to the individual. Hopefully, those seeking will find what they want. I just hope they give themselves every opportunity to get it. All too often people fail due to being naïve, misguided and/or discourage by others...

The power is within but sometimes a reversal of lifestyles can take as long to change it as to was to create it. Hence the saying “set in your ways”…

Peace

[Tarka the Duck]

Thanks for the reply, Peace. May I ask - when you experience what you would term a "negative" emotion in your daily life, what do you do?
Kathie

[Tony]

My interpretation from reading your opening post is that...

being anything is fine, as long as we aren't attached to anything...being overly positive is fine...as long as we aren't attached to that state...like riding a wave, sometimes we'll have high moments, sometimes we'll come crashing back to earth and have occasions where we're overly negative...sometimes we'll just float at the mid-point before being caught up in a wave again that launches us off to the highs and the cycle repeats.

Isn't that what just being is all about...being in flow with the natural rhythms and cycles of life...which begs the question, who are we to decide when we or someone else is being overly positive, who are we to decide when a person is being attached to that state, how do we know that by tomorrow they won't have reached the peak and started flowing down back towards balance again. Aren't we the ones being attached for noticing such attachments in the first place...I like to play a game as I'm moving through the world, something I learned on a forum like this many years ago...pretend everyone else in the world is enlightened and with everything they do, everything they be...they're all teaching me to join them in enlightenment...

everyone around me has mastered the art of just being without attachment...some of them are experiencing the lows, others are experiencing the highs but they're all just being the best they know how in any given moment...it's my job to learn from both and experience both as much as possible so that I can grow in my experiential wisdom regarding the positive and negative aspects of life.

Maybe all we need to ask ourselves is what is it like to just be...in the world...with no past, no future, no sense of self, just enjoying the wave of the moment as it washes and rinses over us...without attachment there is no judgement of negative and positive...only the unfolding of ever new and fresh experience...so to expand on your closing statement


Telling someone else how they should be, is not wise.

I'd say judging someone else for how they're being is not wise either...so I agree with you that it all comes back to learning how we can let go and just be.

People judge and discriminate, that is what people do, gradually they learn from it. We need to look at ourselves and our true intentions. Following the spiritual master can shorten the journey. It is a personal choice. Over-positivity tends to subtly threaten people and puff one up, it tends to be competitive. When I go on retreat there are people who adopt a religious attitude, others a philosophical attitude while others are more experiential, they are not wrong just different.
But I've noticed that they never see eye to eye, that's just how it is.

If you want to have a go at me, that is fine. My judgements and dissatisfaction got me to very special teachings. Our paths are just different.

[Tarka the Duck]

Hello Flash - Drugs eh? Wow - never thought of that explanation...how naive am I?!
Kathie

[Peace of Mind]

Thanks for the reply, Peace. May I ask - when you experience what you would term a "negative" emotion in your daily life, what do you do?
Kathie

Emotions are easy to control once you relize just how powerful they really are. Anger is a very powerful energy, it's an energy that will push you to be pro-active. If used correctly a bad situation can turn into a beautiful one.

Most of my experiences of negativity is through the observation of others. I rarely go through it because I know what brings harm to self and others... so I find the alternatives. Over the years I have lessen my personal interaction with it. Yeah, I might stump my toe or get a paper cut or something similar but that’s about it. The lesson there for me is obvious…watch where I walk and how I handle paper. The more you do something the better you get at it…

Peace

[Jayke]

People judge and discriminate, that is what people do, gradually they learn from it. We need to look at ourselves and our true intentions. Following the spiritual master can shorten the journey. It is a personal choice. Over-positivity tends to subtly threaten people and puff one up, it tends to be competitive. When I go on retreat there are people who adopt a religious attitude, others a philosophical attitude while others are more experiential, they are not wrong just different.
But I've noticed that they never see eye to eye, that's just how it is.

If you want to have a go at me, that is fine. My judgements and dissatisfaction got me to very special teachings. Our paths are just different.

I appreciate your threads Tony, they help stimulate a lot of insight and make for good discussions, you bring a great synergy to the forum...I do feel it's important as a group we move out of having a competitive mindset, life is meant to be abundant, any perception of competitiveness comes from a belief in scarcity i feel, a relic from when we had to fight over food and other resources, once we let go of old paradigms and decide to live in a world where we have an abundance of everything we can feel free to share and give away without any thought of ourselves...imagine a world where everyone can share their insights and views without ever feeling as though anyone is having a go...I see that kind of world as highly dynamic and synergistic, which from my mind is far removed from a place of competitiveness, we're working together to grow, adapt and extend our beliefs into new territory. And since reality adapts to our perceptions, adapting to our beliefs...how we perceive others is only revealing the parts of our hidden inner nature that we need to work through next...the world is your mirror as they say.

Does over positivity shut everyone down or is it just something you may need to work on, do you feel subtly threatened in a room of over enthusiastic do-gooders...I know I used to, it was something I had to work on...but now I give myself the freedom to just join in the fun and go a little crazy every now and then, I know i'll always manage to find my centre once the wave has settled.

[Davidallany]

In ancient Sanskrit text, there are three aspects of our nature described as the three Gunas: Tamas, Rajas and Sattva. Tamas is a sleepy state. Rajas is an active state and Sattva is an awakened state. They are called the three thieves.
Hi Tony, I was just thinking, is stillness without clinging more beneficial than the first two states? also are there other states ? wouldn't living consciously in present moments nullify association and clinging?

[Davidallany]

One of the problems with being over positive is believing you are on the side of the good.
Therefore those others are bad. It creates and us and them.
There is not much distance between, not liking - disliking - aversion - hatred.
My dear Tony, what you're saying is true, however this must be seen through practice of meditation and compassion, to eventually generate wisdom with it. It can't be just given to philosophy class 101 through intellect. Without wisdom people can get lost in 3-d.

[Tony]

One of the problems with being over positive is believing you are on the side of the good.
Therefore those others are bad. It creates and us and them.
There is not much distance between, not liking - disliking - aversion - hatred.
My dear Tony, what you're saying is true, however this must be seen through practice of meditation and compassion, to eventually generate wisdom with it. It can't be just given to philosophy class 101 through intellect. Without wisdom people can get lost in 3-d.

Dear Davidallany,
I agree with you. However writing on a forum one cannot give a full story, otherwise one would have to write a total program. stillness without clinging is quite an advanced state, I'd love talk about it more, but on this forum people are too prone to jump to conclusions when not having practised.

I suppose I'm just saying be aware and do not make assumptions. But some responses are revealing that people are not ready yet, so one has to more careful.

All the best
Tony

[Davidallany]

people are too prone to jump to conclusions when not having practiced. Certainly Tony, wisdom is gained after attaining compassion through actually doing the practice. Without searching and finding through meditation, people will have to use their imagination and intellect :) Thus jumping into conclusions.

[Tony]

People judge and discriminate, that is what people do, gradually they learn from it. We need to look at ourselves and our true intentions. Following the spiritual master can shorten the journey. It is a personal choice. Over-positivity tends to subtly threaten people and puff one up, it tends to be competitive. When I go on retreat there are people who adopt a religious attitude, others a philosophical attitude while others are more experiential, they are not wrong just different.
But I've noticed that they never see eye to eye, that's just how it is.

If you want to have a go at me, that is fine. My judgements and dissatisfaction got me to very special teachings. Our paths are just different.

I appreciate your threads Tony, they help stimulate a lot of insight and make for good discussions, you bring a great synergy to the forum...I do feel it's important as a group we move out of having a competitive mindset, life is meant to be abundant, any perception of competitiveness comes from a belief in scarcity i feel, a relic from when we had to fight over food and other resources, once we let go of old paradigms and decide to live in a world where we have an abundance of everything we can feel free to share and give away without any thought of ourselves...imagine a world where everyone can share their insights and views without ever feeling as though anyone is having a go...I see that kind of world as highly dynamic and synergistic, which from my mind is far removed from a place of competitiveness, we're working together to grow, adapt and extend our beliefs into new territory. And since reality adapts to our perceptions, adapting to our beliefs...how we perceive others is only revealing the parts of our hidden inner nature that we need to work through next...the world is your mirror as they say.

Does over positivity shut everyone down or is it just something you may need to work on, do you feel subtly threatened in a room of over enthusiastic do-gooders...I know I used to, it was something I had to work on...but now I give myself the freedom to just join in the fun and go a little crazy every now and then, I know i'll always manage to find my centre once the wave has settled.

Dear Jayke,
I've just written you a long reply, but just lost it all. Will try again tomorrow.

All the best
Tony

[Jayke]

No worries...sometimes losing things in the wind can be a great way for us to practice our ability to let go as I'm sure you know.


Dear Davidallany,
I agree with you. However writing on a forum one cannot give a full story, otherwise one would have to write a total program. stillness without clinging is quite an advanced state, I'd love talk about it more, but on this forum people are too prone to jump to conclusions when not having practised.

I suppose I'm just saying be aware and do not make assumptions. But some responses are revealing that people are not ready yet, so one has to more careful.

I also would love to have a discussion on the ins and outs of stillness without clinging meditation, this is the kind of meditation we have the opportunity to do all day, every day, especially while we're out there interacting with the world...I feel it may be jumping to conclusions to assume that people are not ready for this kind of discussion...there's probably plenty of people who haven't posted on this thread that would love to hear this kind of information being talked about by those of us who have plenty of real world experience with this state of awareness...without a basic understanding of what happens within this state and the abilities we can develop whilst being there...how can we expect people to set the compass and navigate themselves into the experience thereby gaining the necessary practice they need to understand what it is we're discussing. Surely it'd be better for us to add light to a darkened path than it would be to close the door and leave people out in the cold.

[DeDukshyn]

Being over-positive.

Being over-positive can be stressful and can cover up reality, turning reality into something which it is not. It can be misleading, as it is trying to make what is perfect, more perfect.

There is a huge wave of over-positiveness sweeping the modern world. It makes claims which are beyond people's reach. It's wanting to create a new you. It makes a big deal out of itself. It makes many claims.

This is a very subtle business, positivity. There is negativity and there is positivity: they are both fine and useful. But when we get into negative negativity and positive positivity we run into trouble.

Negative negativity is justifying a mistaken view. It is an illusion just turned into delusion.
Positive positivity is justifying a real view. It is turning reality into a ritual.

In ancient Sanskrit text, there are three aspects of our nature described as the three Gunas: Tamas, Rajas and Sattva. Tamas is a sleepy state. Rajas is an active state and Sattva is an awakened state. They are called the three thieves.

Tamas represents dullness. Rajas represents excitement. Sattva represents stillness. It's easy to see that the first two are thieves to our being, but it is not so easy to see in the third - Sattva. It is the clinging to Sattva that takes us down to the other two states. All three states are beneficial, but when we identify with them they become demonic.

This is what meditation is all about – constantly letting go. Depending on our temperament, the negative or positive aspects of our nature can be used. We can use aversion as the path. We can use desire as the path. We can actually use ignorance as the path.

Ignorance is interesting. Ignorance means indifference, don't care, spaced out. Lacking spaciousness. But that can be turned into a spacious, carefree quality.

So we can all work in different ways.
Telling someone else how they should be, is not wise.


Tony

In my view, positvity and negativity are artificial constructs with no value on their own. This can be proven by the fact that what I view positive be what you view as negative -- it is not globally definable.

Desires and outcomes are real things - a desire is an experience and an outcome is a definable physical event. Over-positivity and over-negativity are are not real things. I have lived half my life being emotionally "negative" and half being a "positive" - optimistic person, and it has changed my life 180 degrees - so In my experiences - as an outlook, they are not both fine. In the details perhaps yes, but not when that is the basis of your outlook on life.

I have since made this distinction in my life ...

I believe the script you are quoting is more or less referring to unstable emotions, an emotional "high" that is caused from illusion (anything in our physical world - thus nearly everything), will rebound due to the fact that it's basis was artificial - artificial takes from the being, so in this sense it works as you described the text. The other end of the spectrum is another emotional response based on illusion.

Thus, I believe the texts are accurate but your interpretation to Gunas mean "outlook on life" rather than "emotional state" -- as was how I interpret that which is causing confusion in your reasoning.

I have an incredible outlook on life, but my emotions are mastered - this distinction needs to be made to help understand what your are saying ;) Emotions are "demon's" (the ego's) tools to help them control you with, and in this sense the script you indicates is dead on, but emotional state <> outlook on life. Just my 2 cents. ;)

[giovonni]

Thanks Tony ~ enjoy your post !

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3346/3549510061_12fafc2389.jpg

My moods use to gravity and teeter as these unique rock formations exemplify above;
for as my aim now is to always focus on the positive...
And be very happy when i'm tethered and floating in the blissful middle. :rofl:

[Tarka the Duck]

Thanks for the reply, Peace. May I ask - when you experience what you would term a "negative" emotion in your daily life, what do you do?
Kathie

Emotions are easy to control once you relize just how powerful they really are. Anger is a very powerful energy, it's an energy that will push you to be pro-active. If used correctly a bad situation can turn into a beautiful one.

Most of my experiences of negativity is through the observation of others. I rarely go through it because I know what brings harm to self and others... so I find the alternatives. Over the years I have lessen my personal interaction with it. Yeah, I might stump my toe or get a paper cut or something similar but that’s about it. The lesson there for me is obvious…watch where I walk and how I handle paper. The more you do something the better you get at it…

Peace

Good morning! I never fail to find it fascinating to see how different all our paths are...what works for one person, at one particular time in their life, may be either very relevant or unhelpful to someone else.

It's interesting to hear how you regard negative emotions- would I be right to say that you have trained yourself to try and avoid them arising in the first place?

Here is a very brief (and simplified) summary of a teaching I recently received from a lama at a Tibetan Buddhist retreat,
regarding negative emotions - it may be of interest:

There are many different ways to deal with negative situations. In the different methods offered by Tibetan Buddhism:
Dzogchen – go in like the wind. Everything loose. Fluid. Merely you. Rest in natural mind, coming out of space. Naturally liberate.
Vajrayana – visualise 5 kinds of light (representing the 5 wisdoms, 5 Buddhas) in a protective dome around you.
Mahayana – "I am beginning to suffer". Have courage. It doesn't matter what the problems are – you use them to enhance your courage. Just go and help. Break through with compassion.
Hinayana – protection cords, therapies, self-help


Although there are times when I find negative emotions uncomfortable when they arise, as long as I don't cause harm by acting on them (even though, being very human, I have to admit there are times when I would love to!) or holding on to them, but rather try to see their essence as a wisdom, I think this has lessened my fear of them. Using the energy that arises from these negative emotions is so valuable (as you said, to turn a bad situation into something more beneficial).

I find this a fascinating (and very subtle) topic!

Best wishes
Kathie

[Tony]

Humility.

Finding a teacher is easy. Finding your teacher is not easy. I am not a teacher. I have found my teacher. If I want to learn, I have to ask politely. I have to learn how to ask questions. It is a meeting of minds, not a battle. One has to lose one's pride, and listen.

Having humility is not for the teachers benefit. It is for your benefit as your mind and heart are open. Of course, if you are the sort of person who thinks this is will allow control of your mind, you are totally mistaken and should continue on your own way.

People are getting information from all over the place and mixing it all up. They will only end up confused and angry. Well-trodden paths are there, ready for you with their varying levels and methods, to help you. This forum is just a taster for the various spiritual journeys. Make the most of asking question, but nicely. It is not “all one”. The Buddha and Christ still have their individual approaches and identities.

I once speaking with a lama in Nepal, who said he was tired of the bull**** from westerners. I was quite shocked! We are very arrogant. We think we can just shout and expect a reply. A teacher values the teachings, and will not devalue them for your entertainment. I asked another lama, “Who told them about the golden roof?” (the highest teachings) He shrugged, and just looked at me.

If you insist on being upset, then you are not ready for spiritual practice. There are those who would like to know more, but maybe cannot deal with disruptive people: there is nothing wrong with being sensitive. Being sentient, we all have emotions, and to say otherwise is a fantasy. The spiritual journey is really tough. A teacher has to see if you are fit enough, or there could be problems ahead.

At one level, the teacher is a spiritual friend. At another level, the teacher is a warrior.

Humility and devotion go hand in hand, and this is not easy for a westerners. I also had a problem with this, but it changed my life once I looked more closely.

Remember there are different levels, but this does not mean one is better. It just means more suitable for the individual. However the answers may be slightly different to address that mind.

I do wish you all the very best.
Do not waste your time - it is precious.

Tony

[onawah]

Being over-positive.

Being over-positive can be stressful and can cover up reality, turning reality into something which it is not. It can be misleading, as it is trying to make what is perfect, more perfect.

There is a huge wave of over-positiveness sweeping the modern world. It makes claims which are beyond people's reach. It's wanting to create a new you. It makes a big deal out of itself. It makes many claims.

This is a very subtle business, positivity. There is negativity and there is positivity: they are both fine and useful. But when we get into negative negativity and positive positivity we run into trouble.

Negative negativity is justifying a mistaken view. It is an illusion just turned into delusion.
Positive positivity is justifying a real view. It is turning reality into a ritual.

In ancient Sanskrit text, there are three aspects of our nature described as the three Gunas: Tamas, Rajas and Sattva. Tamas is a sleepy state. Rajas is an active state and Sattva is an awakened state. They are called the three thieves.

Tamas represents dullness. Rajas represents excitement. Sattva represents stillness. It's easy to see that the first two are thieves to our being, but it is not so easy to see in the third - Sattva. It is the clinging to Sattva that takes us down to the other two states. All three states are beneficial, but when we identify with them they become demonic.

This is what meditation is all about – constantly letting go. Depending on our temperament, the negative or positive aspects of our nature can be used. We can use aversion as the path. We can use desire as the path. We can actually use ignorance as the path.

Ignorance is interesting. Ignorance means indifference, don't care, spaced out. Lacking spaciousness. But that can be turned into a spacious, carefree quality.

So we can all work in different ways.
Telling someone else how they should be, is not wise.


Tony

Thanks very much for your comments. They are really making me think.
You wrote: "In ancient Sanskrit text, there are three aspects of our nature described as the three Gunas: Tamas, Rajas and Sattva. Tamas is a sleepy state. Rajas is an active state and Sattva is an awakened state. They are called the three thieves.

Tamas represents dullness. Rajas represents excitement. Sattva represents stillness. It's easy to see that the first two are thieves to our being, but it is not so easy to see in the third - Sattva. It is the clinging to Sattva that takes us down to the other two states. All three states are beneficial, but when we identify with them they become demonic."

I have studied Eastern thought fairly extensively but somehow don't remember coming across this. I have been under the impression that Sattva was actually the goal of Yoga.
But the idea that it too, is a "thief" is illuminating for me.

I discovered, years ago, when I was about to join an ashram, that I was not really comfortable with the very sattvic energy of the people living there. There seemed to be something very essential missing. I was very surprised to discover how relieved I was when the plan didn't gel and I ended up on my own again instead. I wondered if I was really a sincere aspirant on a spiritual path.

Eventually I realized that, on the whole, the kind of renunciation that was commonly being practiced in the US at the time (this was a few decades ago) really wasn't right for me. I wanted to live in the world, not escape it, and to become the kind of 'normal" person who was joyful, strong, effective, devoted and grounded in THIS reality, and was working to change it for the better, and to be of service, from within the system.
To me, the renunciate paled in comparison. These "normal" people are very spiritual, but instead of removing themselves from the world, they embrace it, in all of its complexities and imperfections. They don't have to be "holy", they just have to be real and natural to be successfully following their path.

I decided I didn't need to follow a particular school of thought. My life is my path, but I can learn from many teachers along the way. I don't have to join a school of thinking to learn from it. There is a tremendous freedom in that. Perhaps by doing so, I was embracing my own ignorance instead of trying to mask it or pretend it was something else.

My first thought when I saw your term "over positive' was that you were referring to what I see as a kind of denial that is prevalent in much New Age thought, and in "positive thinking". This entails, in part, monitoring all thoughts so that negative thoughts do not overwhelm the mind, but often it seems to me this method derails itself by attempting to ignore the reality of negativity. That can have very dangerous, unbalanced results in this 3D reality, and can end up masking a lot of hypocrisy too.

I think to live fully and to be really grounded in this reality I have elected to inhabit, I have to embrace all of it. By doing so, I may come to understand and accept the whole gestalt of 3D existence, and from that point, I think, have a much better crack at actually transcending it and moving on to something new and better.

In a nutshell, if you'll pardon the cliche, what we resist persists...

Thanks again for this thoughtful and stimulating thread.

[Tony]

Dear Onawah,
Maybe for some it is time to let go of granny's hand.. but don't forget granny!

[Tarka the Duck]

Dear Onawah
I can't tell you how much what you have written rings true for me. I concur with the old saying that we learn more from those whose views are different from our own, but it is wonderful to bask - however temporarily! - in the words of a likeminded soul...

I loved the way you explained how life is your path. I have chosen to follow a 'school of thought', because I have found that my temperament needs that outside structure, but one of the things I have struggled with as a result of that is the feeling that I see things differently from pretty well all the other students I mix with ;) When I go to a teaching or retreat, I find it amusing that I am probably the only person who really would rather NOT be there...! It is often because, as you say, my energy seems to be different - but I have slowly managed to gain enough confidence to accept that, just because I don't have a Sattvic temperament, it doesn't mean that I am not cut out for the "spiritual life".

In Tibetan Buddhism, there are so many paths, as you probably know, and the one that really works for me is Dzogchen - which is termed "the way of the householder" - to practice while embracing everyday life in all its richness.
Best wishes

Kathie

[etheric underground]

When we have lived 13 millenia with an unbalanced playing field,
one of negativity and manipulation it can explain in some aspects a reason for super positivity.
Remember folks, there could very well be little time to tip the scales to ensure we succeed in
turning this game around.
Have none of you noticed the very air of change when considering the number of elite that once would
never have been vilified for anything they did all of a sudden getting reprimanded and are now floundering to
cover there tracks.
I agree wholeheartedly with Jayke, it is not important on judging others and there state of ebbs and flows, negative-positive.
by pointing out someone is too positive is playing the egotistical construct for to state that others are too positive must mean
you are referring it to your own energy state which is less than their positive state...is it not??
Im sure even the people you are referring to, including lightworkers( that would be me) endure the bipolar spectrums in this
world with plenty of the negative.
Another way to offer light on the subject is by providing those that agree with pieneal a life experience that has me wanting to attain a SUPER POSITIVE STATE.
I was born into violence in a violent reality. I have not been given love and only survived till the age of 16 ( where i joined the military, and became more violent only trained) by using guttural negative survival ways.
I have hurt people physically and mentally for a large part of my life. I thrived when it came to being
alpha male and showing dominance. I would fight every day at school and bullied those around me. Some of those I bullied
have in turn murdered and raped people in my past.
The one thing that separates me from them......Is my willingness and drive to become the best that I can be. there lives and negative surroundings
got the better of them. I am a fighter...a fighter for GOOD, a fighter for FAIR, a fighter for the people that get dealt a hard life.
And Im sorry to those that may not understand me but my life would be very different had I not found spirit and light and been shown love
when I was destined to be a trained killer or part of the world cartel.
I can only speak for me, but I am you and you are me so what I have endured you have endured.
SUPER POSITIVE PEOPLE are inspiring they make the ones of us who contracted a hard run to ascension able to
remember what we can be at the other end of the spectrum.
there is no right or wrong or too negative or too positive as I have been and still are all of these
which makes me WHO I AM...

[Tony]

No worries...sometimes losing things in the wind can be a great way for us to practice our ability to let go as I'm sure you know.


Dear Davidallany,
I agree with you. However writing on a forum one cannot give a full story, otherwise one would have to write a total program. stillness without clinging is quite an advanced state, I'd love talk about it more, but on this forum people are too prone to jump to conclusions when not having practised.

I suppose I'm just saying be aware and do not make assumptions. But some responses are revealing that people are not ready yet, so one has to more careful.

I also would love to have a discussion on the ins and outs of stillness without clinging meditation, this is the kind of meditation we have the opportunity to do all day, every day, especially while we're out there interacting with the world...I feel it may be jumping to conclusions to assume that people are not ready for this kind of discussion...there's probably plenty of people who haven't posted on this thread that would love to hear this kind of information being talked about by those of us who have plenty of real world experience with this state of awareness...without a basic understanding of what happens within this state and the abilities we can develop whilst being there...how can we expect people to set the compass and navigate themselves into the experience thereby gaining the necessary practice they need to understand what it is we're discussing. Surely it'd be better for us to add light to a darkened path than it would be to close the door and leave people out in the cold.


Dear Jayke,

Stillness without clinging. ( The experience is simple, explaining it isn't!)

I'll try to explain this though someone else's words. However the problem may arise that it will upset people who are not ready for this stage. At every level perception changes! Then you may see why some teachings are secret, so as not to disturb anyone. I always return to basic practices.

In basic meditations we arrive at the gap between thoughts. There is a state of stillness, nowness and non-thought. What I'm about to describe is part of a teaching by Mipham Rinpoche, called The Lamp that Dispels the Darkness. It is a refining of meditation, and very special.
…..................
“When you rest your attention in naturalness without thinking of anything whatsoever and maintain constant mindfulness in that state, you may experience a vacant blank state of mind which is neutral and indifferent.

If no vipashyana of decisive knowing is present, this is exactly what the masters call 'ignorance'. It is called 'undecided' from the point of being unable to express any means of identification, such as “It is like this!” or “This is it!” Being unable to say what you are remaining in or thinking of, this state is labelled 'ordinary indifference'. But actually, it is just an ordinary and non-specific abiding in the state of the all-ground.

Although non-conceptual wakefulness has to be developed through this method of resting meditation, it lacks the wisdom that sees your own nature, is not the main part of meditation practice.
This is what the Aspiration of Samantabadra says:

The vacant state of not thinking anything
Is itself the cause of ignorance and confusion.

Since your mind does experience this kind of vacant state with no thought or mental activity, look naturally into the one who perceives this state and who remains without thinking. When you do so, there is an awareness which is devoid of thought, free from inside and outside and totally open like the sky.

It has no duality of 'experienced' and 'experiencer.' But once you resolve that this is your own nature and feel conviction that “there is nothing besides this!” - since you are unable to express exactly how it is using thought and description- this state can appropriately be called 'beyond extremes' 'the indescribable' 'innate luminosity' or 'awareness.”
….............

You may be asking yourself how do I know if this is the real state? The answer is just look into that which asks the question, and rest there. Near enough is good enough. We subtly cling to this non thought still nowness, and probably bust a gut trying to hold on! It is very exhausting. That is why at the end of a meditation session you feel a sense of relief. It took me thirty years to realise that!

In Dzogchen there are 8 consciousnesses, 5 of the senses, 3 of mind. The all-ground being the eighth, this open vacant state. There is one more the 9th which is not a state, just non duality.
…...........


….“When resting naturally in the essence, some people only try to stay clear and conscious. They then rest in a state of mind-consciousness thinking, “How clear this is!” Some people fixate on an utterly empty state as if their mind has gone totally void. Both of these case, however, are aspects of mind-consciousness, the attachment to an experience of dualistic fixation.”

This will take sometime to digest, to avoid indigestion!



All the best
Tony

[onawah]

When we have lived 13 millenia with an unbalanced playing field,
one of negativity and manipulation it can explain in some aspects a reason for super positivity.
Remember folks, there could very well be little time to tip the scales to ensure we succeed in
turning this game around.
Have none of you noticed the very air of change when considering the number of elite that once would
never have been vilified for anything they did all of a sudden getting reprimanded and are now floundering to
cover there tracks.
I agree wholeheartedly with Jayke, it is not important on judging others and there state of ebbs and flows, negative-positive.
by pointing out someone is too positive is playing the egotistical construct for to state that others are too positive must mean
you are referring it to your own energy state which is less than their positive state...is it not??
Im sure even the people you are referring to, including lightworkers( that would be me) endure the bipolar spectrums in this
world with plenty of the negative.
Another way to offer light on the subject is by providing those that agree with pieneal a life experience that has me wanting to attain a SUPER POSITIVE STATE.
I was born into violence in a violent reality. I have not been given love and only survived till the age of 16 ( where i joined the military, and became more violent only trained) by using guttural negative survival ways.
I have hurt people physically and mentally for a large part of my life. I thrived when it came to being
alpha male and showing dominance. I would fight every day at school and bullied those around me. Some of those I bullied
have in turn murdered and raped people in my past.
The one thing that separates me from them......Is my willingness and drive to become the best that I can be. there lives and negative surroundings
got the better of them. I am a fighter...a fighter for GOOD, a fighter for FAIR, a fighter for the people that get dealt a hard life.
And Im sorry to those that may not understand me but my life would be very different had I not found spirit and light and been shown love
when I was destined to be a trained killer or part of the world cartel.
I can only speak for me, but I am you and you are me so what I have endured you have endured.
SUPER POSITIVE PEOPLE are inspiring they make the ones of us who contracted a hard run to ascension able to
remember what we can be at the other end of the spectrum.
there is no right or wrong or too negative or too positive as I have been and still are all of these
which makes me WHO I AM...

Many people on spiritual paths, lightworkers included (which I consider myself to be one of), have been and no doubt will continue to go through lots of balancing out phases while finishing up 3D karma. focused on achieving a more "steady state" leading into 4D. That's quite natural.

I have gone through super positive phases, as for example, when I discovered the Tao when I lived at a Zen Center in the mountains for a year and entered into very blissful states. I have also crashed into super negative phases, as for example, when my eyes were finally opened to the realization that much of Conspiracy Theory is in fact, fact.

Super positive people can be great, but my point was, if they are in denial about what is currently happening in our reality, they can be less than inspiring to those of us who have had our eyes opened. I just think they might need to take another dip in the roller coaster ride to get a more balanced view.

We can only speak in generalities in a venue such as this, which is limited and leaves open a lot of possibilities for misunderstanding. It's important not to take it personally.

Namaste

[onawah]

Dear Onawah
I can't tell you how much what you have written rings true for me. I concur with the old saying that we learn more from those whose views are different from our own, but it is wonderful to bask - however temporarily! - in the words of a likeminded soul...

I loved the way you explained how life is your path. I have chosen to follow a 'school of thought', because I have found that my temperament needs that outside structure, but one of the things I have struggled with as a result of that is the feeling that I see things differently from pretty well all the other students I mix with ;) When I go to a teaching or retreat, I find it amusing that I am probably the only person who really would rather NOT be there...! It is often because, as you say, my energy seems to be different - but I have slowly managed to gain enough confidence to accept that, just because I don't have a Sattvic temperament, it doesn't mean that I am not cut out for the "spiritual life".

In Tibetan Buddhism, there are so many paths, as you probably know, and the one that really works for me is Dzogchen - which is termed "the way of the householder" - to practice while embracing everyday life in all its richness.
Best wishes

Kathie

I hear you! I recently went to a Tibetan Buddhist mediation group and found myself feeling very much like the odd person out. I was there to meditate with other meditators, not to memorize certain doctrines or become a follower of a particular school of Tibetan Buddhism, and I don't think the young monk who was there to talk to us and lead us in the meditation quite knew what to do with that approach.

I also recently attended a lecture given by a Tibetan scholar and my question to him about the role of wrathful dieties was simply passed over because his conclusion was that I was asking a question that could only be addressed from the perspective of a different school of Tibetan Buddhist thought!
And he actually seemed annoyed that I had asked a question that was outside of his frame of reference.
He was there to tell us only about his lineage, and seemed to feel my question was disrespectul.

It's becoming very clear to me nowadays when someone has an agenda of recruiting others to their group or their way of thinking, and it's really interesting to see their reactions when they find themselves "caught in the act"...LOL!

I think a lot of the old ways of looking at spiritual practice are going to have to be revised, although of course, there is much worth preserving as well. The level I find of competition in spiritual circles is really quite bizarre to me.

[Tony]

Dear Onawah
I can't tell you how much what you have written rings true for me. I concur with the old saying that we learn more from those whose views are different from our own, but it is wonderful to bask - however temporarily! - in the words of a likeminded soul...

I loved the way you explained how life is your path. I have chosen to follow a 'school of thought', because I have found that my temperament needs that outside structure, but one of the things I have struggled with as a result of that is the feeling that I see things differently from pretty well all the other students I mix with ;) When I go to a teaching or retreat, I find it amusing that I am probably the only person who really would rather NOT be there...! It is often because, as you say, my energy seems to be different - but I have slowly managed to gain enough confidence to accept that, just because I don't have a Sattvic temperament, it doesn't mean that I am not cut out for the "spiritual life".

In Tibetan Buddhism, there are so many paths, as you probably know, and the one that really works for me is Dzogchen - which is termed "the way of the householder" - to practice while embracing everyday life in all its richness.
Best wishes

Kathie

I hear you! I recently went to a Tibetan Buddhist mediation group and found myself feeling very much like the odd person out. I was there to meditate with other meditators, not to memorize certain doctrines or become a follower of a particular school of Tibetan Buddhism, and I don't think the young monk who was there to talk to us and lead us in the meditation quite knew what to do with that approach.

I also recently attended a lecture given by a Tibetan scholar and my question to him about the role of wrathful dieties was simply passed over because his conclusion was that I was asking a question that could only be addressed from the perspective of a different school of Tibetan Buddhist thought!
And he actually seemed annoyed that I had asked a question that was outside of his frame of reference.
He was there to tell us only about his lineage, and seemed to feel my question was disrespectul.

It's becoming very clear to me nowadays when someone has an agenda of recruiting others to their group or their way of thinking, and it's really interesting to see their reactions when they find themselves "caught in the act"...LOL!

I think a lot of the old ways of looking at spiritual practice are going to have to be revised, although of course, there is much worth preserving as well. The level I find of competition in spiritual circles is really quite bizarre to me.

Dear Onawah,

Your are right, however things are being revised, but slowly. One has to aware of different schools of approach, which is not easy. Also what is suitable for easterners may not be for westerners.
Westerners are very aware and emotional. Easterners are more sleepy but are not so emotional. We all have our little problems!

So to tell a westerner to be more conscious...well they will only succeed in blowing a gasket!!!!
That is why for westerners they first have to know how to relax.

Book learning does not really help, it just gives a direction to look. Talking about wrathful deities is not everyone's cup of tea, or their practice. One cannot mix up Hinayana, Mahayana and Vajrayana approaches, and one has to be a little cautious when talking to people. Much confusion can set in.

Wrathful deity practice is Vajrayana, and you can only really talk to a practitioner, even then you will not be told much because you would have had to do the Ngondro = 4 x 100.000 practises. Some have done this eight times!

A wrathful deity is the reverse side of a peaceful deity, each has two aspects. Wrathful being intense love, and very colourful. It's not much spoken about precisely because ordinary people can get the wrong ideas about it. They jump to mundane conclusions. That is why you go through the ngondro first.

It is a practice of deep appreciation. One cannot use one ordinary worldly mind to understand it, where one just speculates. This is why we go in stages or levels. The emotions are the key.

However if you are naturally drawn to a subject, image or name, then it may be worth looking into!!! What you seek may be right under your nose.

All the best with your searching,

Tony

[Tony]

Being super positive could be joy, or it could an exaggeration, only the individual will know. An individual experience
Is for the individual. This does not mean it is the same for everyone. I know this is an obvious thing to say, but we all fall into that trap. If an individual is confident in their positiveness, then nothing will disturb them in it. That would be the test.

[Tarka the Duck]

Dear Onawah
I can't tell you how much what you have written rings true for me. I concur with the old saying that we learn more from those whose views are different from our own, but it is wonderful to bask - however temporarily! - in the words of a likeminded soul...

I loved the way you explained how life is your path. I have chosen to follow a 'school of thought', because I have found that my temperament needs that outside structure, but one of the things I have struggled with as a result of that is the feeling that I see things differently from pretty well all the other students I mix with ;) When I go to a teaching or retreat, I find it amusing that I am probably the only person who really would rather NOT be there...! It is often because, as you say, my energy seems to be different - but I have slowly managed to gain enough confidence to accept that, just because I don't have a Sattvic temperament, it doesn't mean that I am not cut out for the "spiritual life".

In Tibetan Buddhism, there are so many paths, as you probably know, and the one that really works for me is Dzogchen - which is termed "the way of the householder" - to practice while embracing everyday life in all its richness.
Best wishes

Kathie

I hear you! I recently went to a Tibetan Buddhist mediation group and found myself feeling very much like the odd person out. I was there to meditate with other meditators, not to memorize certain doctrines or become a follower of a particular school of Tibetan Buddhism, and I don't think the young monk who was there to talk to us and lead us in the meditation quite knew what to do with that approach.

I also recently attended a lecture given by a Tibetan scholar and my question to him about the role of wrathful dieties was simply passed over because his conclusion was that I was asking a question that could only be addressed from the perspective of a different school of Tibetan Buddhist thought!
And he actually seemed annoyed that I had asked a question that was outside of his frame of reference.
He was there to tell us only about his lineage, and seemed to feel my question was disrespectul.

It's becoming very clear to me nowadays when someone has an agenda of recruiting others to their group or their way of thinking, and it's really interesting to see their reactions when they find themselves "caught in the act"...LOL!

I think a lot of the old ways of looking at spiritual practice are going to have to be revised, although of course, there is much worth preserving as well. The level I find of competition in spiritual circles is really quite bizarre to me.

Onawah
Sorry...my mistake - I didn't explain myself properly. The reason I feel out of place on retreats is not because of a problem with the teachings - I have been fortunate enough (after a difficult journey) to find a teaching who really works well for me. I do agree that if one attends a teaching that is not attuned to, it can be really uncomfortable, and throw up more unanswered questions than it solves.

The problem I experience relates to your original posting: This entails, in part, monitoring all thoughts so that negative thoughts do not overwhelm the mind, but often it seems to me this method derails itself by attempting to ignore the reality of negativity. That can have very dangerous, unbalanced results in this 3D reality, and can end up masking a lot of hypocrisy too.

That is how I feel most of the other retreatants are...there is a veneer of positivity and peace and love and light, but they seem so delicate and protective of their 'spirituality". I know it is all part of a process, and I know I sound horrendously judgemental when I say this: fortunately, I have (finally) managed to develop a sense of humour over this, and have accepted that although I do not see things in the same way, I can accept their way. This has actually been a huge step for me!

[Dawn]

Getting stuck in any particular place will eventually cause an earthquake in your life. Too much positivity= not seeing what is. Too much negativity= not seeing what is. Anyplace you get stuck in will cause earthquakes when you eventually let go. It seems to me that emotions are the programs running us. Who's idea was it anyway to create a separate emotional body? The most important thing I have ever learned is to release emotions... something which must be done on a full time basis 24/7. If I am reactive to anything in life (positive or negative) then releasing the emotions involved will free me up to flow in it. This works for things both large and small. I get stuck all the time... for me this is part of the human experience here. Learning to release and work with the fluid nature of emotions has saved my bacon many times.

[onawah]

Dear Onawah
I can't tell you how much what you have written rings true for me. I concur with the old saying that we learn more from those whose views are different from our own, but it is wonderful to bask - however temporarily! - in the words of a likeminded soul...

I loved the way you explained how life is your path. I have chosen to follow a 'school of thought', because I have found that my temperament needs that outside structure, but one of the things I have struggled with as a result of that is the feeling that I see things differently from pretty well all the other students I mix with ;) When I go to a teaching or retreat, I find it amusing that I am probably the only person who really would rather NOT be there...! It is often because, as you say, my energy seems to be different - but I have slowly managed to gain enough confidence to accept that, just because I don't have a Sattvic temperament, it doesn't mean that I am not cut out for the "spiritual life".

In Tibetan Buddhism, there are so many paths, as you probably know, and the one that really works for me is Dzogchen - which is termed "the way of the householder" - to practice while embracing everyday life in all its richness.
Best wishes

Kathie

I hear you! I recently went to a Tibetan Buddhist mediation group and found myself feeling very much like the odd person out. I was there to meditate with other meditators, not to memorize certain doctrines or become a follower of a particular school of Tibetan Buddhism, and I don't think the young monk who was there to talk to us and lead us in the meditation quite knew what to do with that approach.

I also recently attended a lecture given by a Tibetan scholar and my question to him about the role of wrathful dieties was simply passed over because his conclusion was that I was asking a question that could only be addressed from the perspective of a different school of Tibetan Buddhist thought!
And he actually seemed annoyed that I had asked a question that was outside of his frame of reference.
He was there to tell us only about his lineage, and seemed to feel my question was disrespectul.

It's becoming very clear to me nowadays when someone has an agenda of recruiting others to their group or their way of thinking, and it's really interesting to see their reactions when they find themselves "caught in the act"...LOL!

I think a lot of the old ways of looking at spiritual practice are going to have to be revised, although of course, there is much worth preserving as well. The level I find of competition in spiritual circles is really quite bizarre to me.

Onawah
Sorry...my mistake - I didn't explain myself properly. The reason I feel out of place on retreats is not because of a problem with the teachings - I have been fortunate enough (after a difficult journey) to find a teaching who really works well for me. I do agree that if one attends a teaching that is not attuned to, it can be really uncomfortable, and throw up more unanswered questions than it solves.

The problem I experience relates to your original posting: This entails, in part, monitoring all thoughts so that negative thoughts do not overwhelm the mind, but often it seems to me this method derails itself by attempting to ignore the reality of negativity. That can have very dangerous, unbalanced results in this 3D reality, and can end up masking a lot of hypocrisy too.

That is how I feel most of the other retreatants are...there is a veneer of positivity and peace and love and light, but they seem so delicate and protective of their 'spirituality". I know it is all part of a process, and I know I sound horrendously judgemental when I say this: fortunately, I have (finally) managed to develop a sense of humour over this, and have accepted that although I do not see things in the same way, I can accept their way. This has actually been a huge step for me!


Actually Tarka, you explained yourself very well. The fault was mine. I was just adding to the list of difficulties I have encountered with my non conformist approach to spirituality.

I also accept that my way is not always acceptable to others, though I accept other approaches to spirituality.

It just seems to me that of all things, spirituality should not be "in the box", so to speak. There are as many spiritual paths as there are people on them. It's wonderful that there are so many signposts along the way, and so many teachers, but I think I can learn as much from my cat as I can from a human teacher, yet I would be ostracized in many respectable spiritual circles were I to say such a thing.

Re the discussion about overly positive and overly negative, I believe the great Pantangali wrote:
"the yogi is neither elated nor depressed"...
His teachings are classic, and so one important goal, it can safely be said, is to achieve equanimity, a state which is not easily shaken.