Creative actions and Distorted actions

[Tony]

I wondered if you might find this interesting, or even useful. It is about the four enlightened activities and how the dark forces (Maras) can pervert them within us.

THE CONSTRUCTIVE WISDOMS = THE FOUR ACTIONS
With the laws of attraction, you have to be aware that there are other laws as well, and that each one can be distorted by the ego! This is because our capacity is not strong enough yet.
I'll try and keep this brief.

Along the fast path one develops all five wisdoms. A fully enlightened person will manifest them when a particular situation arises. These five wisdoms convert into the four karmas (actions). One of the wisdoms allows the others to take place.

The karmas/actions are PACIFYING, ENRICHING, MAGNETISING AND DESTROYING.
Pacifying connects to mirror-like wisdom.
Enriching connects to the wisdom of equality.
Magnetising connects to discriminating wisdom.
Destroying connects to all-accomplishing wisdom.
The fifth wisdom of space allows the other four to operate.

The karma of pacifying accommodates everything. It reveals that there are no problems, and that aggression from the ego is unnecessary.

The karma of enriching brings to light the process of growth, and allows the process of knowledge.

The karma of magnetising bypasses the conventional reality. In conventional reality, we continually try to draw desired situations towards ourselves and fend off undesirable ones. A realised person simply remains as he or she is, without this ego intervention, attracting naturally.

The karma of destroying is connected to compassion, aimed at ego's manipulations.

THE DISTORTIONS OF EGO = THE FOUR MARAS.
These four demonic activities are directed at building and fortifying our concept of 'self.'

The mara of pacifying appears as devaputra mara.
It attempts to make peace by using pleasure and security, to eliminate what is unpleasant. It is an imitation of genuine pacifying, which is beyond any self-serving strategy ( … “there, there - it will be alright, trust me”).

The mara of enriching is skanda mara, the mara of accumulating.
Ego takes the natural growth and turns it into its own ground. It takes the richness, and turns it into my wealth (… “see how clever I am”).

The mara of magnetising is klesha mara.
One attempts to attract, to feed one's ego with what is desirable, based on the possessive emotions ( … “I enjoy praying for others” ).

The mara of destroying is Yama mara.
Yama mara, instead of destroying what needs to be destroyed, obliterates everything. Trungpa Rinpoche wrote, “it begins to get inspired in the wrong way, and uproots the whole tree...And that is the karmic quality of destruction gone wild, unnecessarily” (… “you are talking total rubbish!”).

This reveals that reality is nothing other than wisdom. We need to look closely at the world we actually inhabit and to contemplate our most ordinary experiences. If we do so, if we let go of what we think and simply let the true being show itself, we will discover that it is nothing other than primordial immaculate wisdom.

Remember: the outer demons do not miss a trick! Any whiff of ego involvement and they will feed off it. And off we go round in circles, re-acting... “Feeding time!!”

[Tony]

Let’s try and simplify.

Our absolute truth in essence is pure emptiness. (not made of any thing).
This prisms into 5 qualities.
These are reflected in 4 Buddha activities, to help sentient beings.

Our ego relative consciousnesses arise to maintain self-cherishing.
Arousing 4 demons, to keep sentient beings asleep.

At every moment the Buddha and Demons act on us.
And we are busy preparing ourselves for the dining table!

[Jayke]

4 actions...it's amazing the life of an enlightened master just boils down to doing 4 simple things...
It reminds me of a story I heard about an interview someone did with a champion ju jitsu master from Brazil...when asked how he bacame so successful he replied 'that's easy, I just do the same 3 moves every time'...'3 moves' the interviewer replied 'how have you lasted so long being champion when you only have 3 moves in your arsenal...'

'there's no secret' replied the master 'most people try to learn every move under the sun then get confused with the movement they're doing when it comes to actually using it...their technique is sloppy and it allows me to take advantage of that weakness, I focus on 3 moves, I master them, work endlessly perfecting them so as that single moment arises I know exactly what to do in any given situation, without hesitation I act and unfortunately for my opponent they just haven't prepared as well as I have'


PACIFYING, ENRICHING, MAGNETISING AND DESTROYING.

Very very interesting Pie'n'eal, I shall be contemplating how those manifest themselves throughout my life along with the four maras all night, thanks for posting.

[Tony]

We have to constantly review our motivations and intentions. To activate the four actions one must have true compassion. To activate true compassion, one must know one's true nature. These are just words, the meaning is beyond the words.

I wish that I could say more, but more and more there is less to say......

[Jayke]

So how would one define true compassion? how does a person know when they're experiencing true compassion in their life? is true compassion something we find as we discover our true nature or does compassion just begin to flow through us as we connect with that nature of the true self?

[13th Warrior]

4 actions...it's amazing the life of an enlightened master just boils down to doing 4 simple things...
It reminds me of a story I heard about an interview someone did with a champion ju jitsu master from Brazil...when asked how he bacame so successful he replied 'that's easy, I just do the same 3 moves every time'...'3 moves' the interviewer replied 'how have you lasted so long being champion when you only have 3 moves in your arsenal...'

'there's no secret' replied the master 'most people try to learn every move under the sun then get confused with the movement they're doing when it comes to actually using it...their technique is sloppy and it allows me to take advantage of that weakness, I focus on 3 moves, I master them, work endlessly perfecting them so as that single moment arises I know exactly what to do in any given situation, without hesitation I act and unfortunately for my opponent they just haven't prepared as well as I have'


PACIFYING, ENRICHING, MAGNETISING AND DESTROYING.

Very very interesting Pie'n'eal, I shall be contemplating how those manifest themselves throughout my life along with the four maras all night, thanks for posting.

Please indulge me to go off topic for a bit...

I wonder how this Ju Jitsu master would fare in a fight with Bruce Lee (the master of formless form)???

[Tony]

So how would one define true compassion? how does a person know when they're experiencing true compassion in their life? is true compassion something we find as we discover our true nature or does compassion just begin to flow through us as we connect with that nature of the true self?

The answer to that is yes. However now we come to the tricky point, knowing ones true nature. What I'm about to say is so others may get the picture. Rarely has anyone realised their true nature without being on a path, or followed a method. A lot of people make a lot of claims, most of it sounds empty, or hot air. I know it sounds harsh to say that, but as far as I know it takes much work to strip away ego's clinging. The "I" "me" has to be reduced or eliminated.

One way is to follow a method step by step - you start at the beginning of the book and discover the end. The other is to receive the pointing out instruction from a qualifies teacher of a lineage, then you know the nature of mind. This is my path. Then you know what you experience is sound, because you can check it.

Once that is known, compassion reveals itself, and you start the path of a bodhisattva. One gradually develops bodhichitta = caring for others.

Most of what is seen are people wanting self - enlightenment, so compassion is not of the upmost importance.

Why does one need a well practiced path? Because self-deception is ready to twist reality at every moment, so one needs constant reminders. It is so easy to get carried away with other's word, and end up nowhere, exhausted. Totally deluded.

There are many levels of compassion, which will depend on one capacity. The path to enlightenment is not a stroll in the park, there are many hardships. Though gradually one learns to be effortless.

Pride is a huge obstacle in the west. So with compassion there comes devotion. If one is serious about treading the path to enlightenment this has to be considered...but it is also fun!

It is a worthwhile journey.

[Jayke]

Please indulge me to go off topic for a bit...

I wonder how this Ju Jitsu master would fare in a fight with Bruce Lee (the master of formless form)???

I'd back my money on Brucey any day of the week lol

I do believe the journey is coming to ahead though Pie'n'eal, don't forget that the path to enlightenment takes place over many lifetimes, stripping away the ego is only difficult if there are many layers to strip away, I see alot of the people incarnating on the planet right now who really only have a couple layers of the onion left to peel before they find their true nature. When you realise that all that is out there is also in here then enlightenment of the self surely encapsulates everyone else as well does is not. Caring for others becomes treating them the way you wish to be treated...isn't that from the well practiced path of Christianity. All I was after was a definition of compassion though and I feel you answered that quite sublimely in another thread, the post you made in the thread about living from the heart so thankyou, gave me an 'AHA' moment left to ponder on.

[Tarka the Duck]

So how would one define true compassion? how does a person know when they're experiencing true compassion in their life? is true compassion something we find as we discover our true nature or does compassion just begin to flow through us as we connect with that nature of the true self?

The answer to that is yes. However now we come to the tricky point, knowing ones true nature. What I'm about to say is so others may get the picture. Rarely has anyone realised their true nature without being on a path, or followed a method. A lot of people make a lot of claims, most of it sounds empty, or hot air. I know it sounds harsh to say that, but as far as I know it takes much work to strip away ego's clinging. The "I" "me" has to be reduced or eliminated.

One way is to follow a method step by step - you start at the beginning of the book and discover the end. The other is to receive the pointing out instruction from a qualifies teacher of a lineage, then you know the nature of mind. This is my path. Then you know what you experience is sound, because you can check it.

Once that is known, compassion reveals itself, and you start the path of a bodhisattva. One gradually develops bodhichitta = caring for others.

Most of what is seen are people wanting self - enlightenment, so compassion is not of the upmost importance.

Why does one need a well practiced path? Because self-deception is ready to twist reality at every moment, so one needs constant reminders. It is so easy to get carried away with other's word, and end up nowhere, exhausted. Totally deluded.

There are many levels of compassion, which will depend on one capacity. The path to enlightenment is not a stroll in the park, there are many hardships. Though gradually one learns to be effortless.

Pride is a huge obstacle in the west. So with compassion there comes devotion. If one is serious about treading the path to enlightenment this has to be considered...but it is also fun!

It is a worthwhile journey.



There's a Zen story in which a professor visited a Japanese master to inquire about Zen. The master served tea. When the visitor's cup was full, the master kept pouring. Tea spilled out of the cup and over the table.

"The cup is full!" said the professor. "No more will go in!"

"Like this cup," said the master, "You are full of your own opinions and speculations. How can I show you Zen unless you first empty your cup?"

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Please indulge me to go off topic for a bit...

I wonder how this Ju Jitsu master would fare in a fight with Bruce Lee (the master of formless form)???

I'd back my money on Brucey any day of the week lol

I do believe the journey is coming to ahead though Pie'n'eal, don't forget that the path to enlightenment takes place over many lifetimes, stripping away the ego is only difficult if there are many layers to strip away, I see alot of the people incarnating on the planet right now who really only have a couple layers of the onion left to peel before they find their true nature. When you realise that all that is out there is also in here then enlightenment of the self surely encapsulates everyone else as well does is not. Caring for others becomes treating them the way you wish to be treated...isn't that from the well practiced path of Christianity. All I was after was a definition of compassion though and I feel you answered that quite sublimely in another thread, the post you made in the thread about living from the heart so thankyou, gave me an 'AHA' moment left to ponder on.

I was wondering whether I would know any if these people whom you feel only have a couple of layers left to peel away?

[Jayke]

I was wondering whether I would know any if these people whom you feel only have a couple of layers left to peel away?

I'm sure you pass them on the street all the time without even realising Tarka, when was the last time you truly stopped and talked to a stranger, looked them deeply in the eye without judgement and shared in a spontaneous conversation with them...there are enlightened masters everywhere we look, some are so enlightened they never even pick up a book on spirituality yet the spirit is shining brightly evident in them clear as day...if you're looking for someone famous I could guide you towards your looking in the wrong place...just turn to the person next to you and tell me what you see?

[Tarka the Duck]

Nice idea...and I think we DO all have moments of clarity,compassion, awareness of our true nature. It is precisely because that is our true nature that that we all have glimpses of it.
However, I think that where we could differ is in the idea that this is equivalent to being an enlightened master (can one have enlightened mistresses too???!!)
To my way of thinking, one has to do some work in order to, at the very least, stabilise those glimpses. And, to be honest, most people you meet in the street have not done any work specifically directed at this kind of understanding. I am not saying it is impossible, but I don't find it as likely as you do.
Of course, we never know how many "layers" we have left, but for mr it is more helpful to assume that there are more, rather than less...that is what keeps me practising.

[shijo]

the state of enlightenment is nothing special but it takes hard work to realise,and then it disappears, to be replaced by other states, thats why we return to practise each day,fortunately some of it gets stored and we can soar.....

[Tony]

Who do you rely on?
You may say, “I do not rely on anyone, I am my own master.”......Really?

What if there wasn't an original thought in our heads. What if we are like receivers
picking up thoughts, like radio waves, that constantly cross and recross this planet.

So who is transmitting?

I've come to the conclusion it comes from Dark and Light beings.
The question is, “Is there any interference?” Of course there is, it's us!

What if the Light speaks in silence, and the Dark speaks in contradictory distractions.
The Light transmits in vibrant wisdom. The Dark transmits in dulling information.

One quietens, the other excites, keeps us busy.
We for our part interfere with the silence, and cling to the excitement, which in fact dulls us.

One of the problems is that we might be oscillating between the two and not notice it. How?
Well, we may believe we are receiving the Light messages which may obscure the Dark messages
interwoven in them. A lie gains it's strength by the element of truth in it.
So we could be holding a torch for the Light but be marching into the Dark, or dullness.

Remember there are many receivers around us repeating the same chants. So, who do, you rely on?
The only way to know is to tame the mind and investigate. Just joining in may not be as safe as you think.

If you find yourself just repeating the same things and your mind is going round in circles,
then maybe take another look. You may be saying “I know what resonates for me.”
But this could be just a partial view. Maybe take another look.

How tightly are you needing to hold on?

Not too tight, not too loose.

[taizen]

I was wondering whether I would know any if these people whom you feel only have a couple of layers left to peel away?

I'm sure you pass them on the street all the time without even realising Tarka, when was the last time you truly stopped and talked to a stranger, looked them deeply in the eye without judgement and shared in a spontaneous conversation with them...there are enlightened masters everywhere we look, some are so enlightened they never even pick up a book on spirituality yet the spirit is shining brightly evident in them clear as day...if you're looking for someone famous I could guide you towards your looking in the wrong place...just turn to the person next to you and tell me what you see?

I have 2 prime examples for you: first example- I work with and around hundreds of computers all day. There are minimum 100+ people in the building I work in. One day, I go to the break room for a coffee refill and begin singing 'tonights gonna be a good nite' with GUSTO! There were two gentlemen standing by the coffee maker (the only two in the room besides myself), one looks at the other, "I knew someone was going to come in here and make us happy", the other laughed out loud- I told them " i didn't know you needed a spark of happiness?!" we all then laughed, I then left with my now really energized coffee. (did i know what they needed? that is a good question)
Second example: My boyfriend and I were doing 'random' shopping in a store the other day. We happened by the magazine counter, not realizing the people around me, i spoke up about a magazine cover-"what does this scantily clad girl have to do with motorcycle parts?" I looked to my right and a girl around the age of 11 spoke up quietly, "i was thinking the same thing". We both began to giggle at the cover; upon hearing us, the girl's mother (apparently) looked at us both and said rather menacingly, "what's all this about". I shared with her the inside 'scoop' and the mother began to laugh. We shared a few other comments, then parted ways.
I speak to random people all the time. I sometimes get a 'feeling' they are uncomfortable, so I leave them alone. Other times, i open the door to conversation with just a smile. Many times when I am shopping, I have random people come up to me and ask if I know where an item is?! Also, people will end up telling me their 'woes' - all i did was ask if they were doing well that day- purely random people.
I feel that i am partially 'empathic' and have a sense when someone needs a smile-perhaps that is why 'I' was chosen to cross their path. Sometimes i get the 'feeling' some people don't trust my smile-perhaps due to their upbringing or current situation (is this part of the layers of conditioning they need to peel away?). A simple smile is like a gold nugget I try to give away : FOR FREE; no strings attached, no agenda, I'm not being facetious- just trying to brighten the day of a stranger.
I've noticed starting a 'spontaneous' conversation with a random stranger isn't difficult as long as there is a common bond, e.i. being stuck in an elevator, waiting in a shopping line, viewing a flower in a public garden area, filling up the car. I don't divulge my own woes. I feel it unnecessary. Sometimes a co-worker of mine will notice that I have a strained personal life and wonder how come I can be so jovial at work. Does it matter? I feel to them it does. Perhaps they are really asking-"how can i just 'let it go' and still carry on with my life?". If someone is helped-then they were ready for it.
I want to add a note of thanks to pie'n'eal. Once an inner balance has occurred others will 'feel' it around you, whether you want to call it vibration, aura, or magnetic resonance, it can be felt. Peeling away more layers equals, IMHO, a stronger vibration. Please, pie'n'eal, correct me if I'm wrong.

Again, the bias perceptions of people will sometimes get in the way and there will be a trust issue-because their world my be twisted in an overwhelming mass (like a tangled ball of string) they may misinterpret you as being genuine, 'With so many problems today, how can anyone smile?'

What is difficult is having these people accept the generosity of a stranger's smile-especially now-a-days.

When was the last time you waved to a random car in your neighborhood and they waved back-without that "Who the hell are YOU?" look on their face? :car: :shocked: (akin to the 'deer in the headlights' look)

[Jayke]

Great examples taizen, I do believe people make enlightenment out to be some kind of unattainable holy grail when really it's just as simple as a smile and dropping the baggage that weighs us down, one of my favourite parables to help keep things in perspective is this:

A young prince is given all the earthly offerings that life could afford, women, servants, riches,
fame yet their is one thing he seeks more than anything else...Enlightenment.
He travels the lands in his quest for this most holy of holy treasures, he seeks kings and queens,
rich men and poor, hermits and mystics, anyone who might give him the answers he seeks.
till one day he hears word of an enlightened master who lives atop a mountain...so up the peak
he climbs...and on his way up he stumbles across an old man, hunched over carrying a heavy sack
along the path
"excuse me sir?" the Prince asks excitedly, "Are you the one who can teach me the secrets of
enlightenment"
The old man simply smiles, he drops his heavy sack to the floor, stands up tall and takes a deep breathe
deep into the bottom of his lungs and lets it go with a relaxing sigh
the prince begins to laugh "that's it my old friend, after so much searching I finally understand...but sir I have to
ask...after enlightenment, what comes next?"
Without saying a word the old man picks up his heavy sack, throws it over his shoulders and
begins to carry on his journey down the mountains path.

The universe is simple, it's only us humans who like to make things complicated.

[Tony]

DearTaizen and Jayke,
Of course you are right! But the onion has been with us a very long time. If you are satisfied with what you have found, that is fine. If not maybe we can talk more at some time. The path to enlightenment is very subtle and tricky. The word enlightenment is used too loosely.
You need a real teacher, to take you further. I know that is probably the last thing you want to hear. I have a teacher, and I will go anywhere in the world to hear him and talk to him.

I have been practising a very long time, and still there is more to learn and realise.
Be careful of just words.

I am talking to you both as a spiritual friend. The wrathful deity is intense love!

[Jayke]

PACIFYING, ENRICHING, MAGNETISING AND DESTROYING.

OK dear friend, Where does telling people what they need fall into the actions of the constructive wisdoms?

[Tony]

PACIFYING, ENRICHING, MAGNETISING AND DESTROYING.

OK dear friend, Where does telling people what they need fall into the actions of the constructive wisdoms?

They are just words, enriching words. But that could depend on one's point of view. Perhaps they have another effect. But that could depend on one's point of view.;)

[Tarka the Duck]

Dear Jayke and Taizen
Of course, we all know the magic of spontaneous interaction - often without words, and often with strangers. It is one of the creative joys of life. As I said before, it could well be a connection, a glimpse into something that unites us all.
But I would not choose to call those moments 'enlightenment' - that is just my take on the matter.
Enlightenment has 2 aspects: the first is realising one's absolute nature, but that is not enough. One then has to exhaust all karma, which is purifying ( Budd = awake and dha = purifying ).
If you want to make the Buddha laugh, tell him you are nearly enlightened...and then your response to that laughter will tell you what you need to know.
Yes, the universal principles are simple - but we need to beware of over-simplifying. It's tough out there!
Kathie

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PACIFYING, ENRICHING, MAGNETISING AND DESTROYING.

OK dear friend, Where does telling people what they need fall into the actions of the constructive wisdoms?

Me again! The way I see it, Tony is just trying to help.
Kathie

[Jayke]

I hear what your saying Tarka and i'm not disagreeing however I will add that until people learn to grasp the very basic principles...such as being spiritual is just about bringing a smile to anothers face and spreading a little joy in the world. If people can't even grasp that concept then what chance have they got of understanding the nuances and intricacies of spirit that lead up to being able to be that kind of person effortlessly in the world. 'the highest form of sophistication is simplicity' as Albert Einstein once said. People tend to think that because something is simple, that must make it easy...which couldn't be further from the truth...if it was easy then everybody would be doing it and there'd be no misery or suffering in the world...no need for the awake and pure buddhas to guide the way.

Between spiritual people there seems to be friction based on the path they take to enlightenment...some prefer to shrink into nothingness (breathe out and release)
others choose to expand into infinity (breathe in and create)
I prefer to walk the third path, simplify and dissolve into the nothingness of true nature whilst simultaneously expanding into the infinity of everything (the pause between breaths)

So for me enlightenment isn't really practised meditating trying to peel off the layers of mind in isolation and it isn't really practised sitting at the feet of a teacher interpreting the words of his ego. where the rubber meets the road in spiritual work in my mind is when we can practice burning off karma whilst being out in the world spreading joy to others...the only real teacher we need is the gnosis of personal experience and loving actions we offer to brighten up the day of those around us. It really is simple, easy though...not so much

[Tarka the Duck]

Totally agree! As the teachers say, it's important to be a healthy human being before starting the spiritual journey.

[taizen]

"...the only real teacher we need is the gnosis of personal experience and loving actions we offer to brighten up the day of those around us..."

We are surrounded with 'personal experiences' everyday. When we lay in bed just before opening our eyes, when we attune our senses to our surroundings before we begin our day, when we 'see' people we pass along the corridors, when we smell the flower by the road side (did you miss seeing that flower by the road side this morning?) What I'm getting at is everything we 'sense' is an experience. It is the choice we have whether to react (how then do we react) or do we withdraw (how far would we need to disengage). The last question is why. What is the motivation or reaction or disengaging?
People tell me I had missed the ninety's. I didn't miss it, it must have missed me! I was happy. To others I was seemingly oblivious to the world around me. My choices were just different choices not understood by the mass society. I knew the basics of what was happening around me, I just didn't have the socially acceptable reactions or prejudices as everyone thought I should. During this time, experience was my teacher. My intuition mainly, was and still is my teacher. IMO, what is resonant with me will not be so with someone else. I expect that. I am not a duplicate or visa versa of someone else. If I 'feel' I should engage more, I normally do. I wouldn't want to pass up an opportunity. Like with this discussion post. You, I, and everyone reading - we are all learning more, subtly perhaps, but learning non the less- we are learning though the nuggets - What is the nugget you are receiving from this? :ph34r:

If I come across a 'teacher', what makes that person a 'teacher'? I am the only one that will allow that person to be a teacher. Without a student, there won't be a teacher, tu ne crois pas? Who is better in trying to understand when they need a teacher? Isn't that what your are eluding to Jayke?

[Tony]

Hello Taizen,

Of course one does not have to have a teacher, people are free to do their own thing. However from experience it is just being suggested, if one would like to go faster to one's destination on may need instruction. If one feels one is there already that is truly wonderful. When writing on a forum one tries to open up the subject. We all have our personal views, but some may find that is it not totally satisfying.

If I may talk from personal experiences, I have painted all my life, but still needed instruction so I went to the Florence Academy of Art. I received classical instruction that at that time I could not get anywhere else in the world. It really helped, I did not know how to see!

I used to be in the Olympic fencing squad and took personal instruction 4-5 times a week. One does not get into the Olympic squad by just doing one's thing. To be taught by a master fencer is a great honour. The teacher imparts skill and knowledge, then one can do one's own thing!

Seeking the truth for forty years, I have had some exceptional teachers. They have helped my learnt so much about the inner teacher....and other things!

I am truly grateful to all my teachers. It brings tears to my eyes to think that I was worth being taught. They took the time to explain things to me!

This could be a generation thing. Now days there is so much available to people, however there is a lot watered down of information and cherry picking to make it more palatable to people. This is a big discussion going on now.

The problem is, that now days everyone seems to make a discussion personal. I am not saying this is right for everyone,this is just an offering.

Kind regards
Tony

[Tarka the Duck]

"...the only real teacher we need is the gnosis of personal experience and loving actions we offer to brighten up the day of those around us..."

We are surrounded with 'personal experiences' everyday. When we lay in bed just before opening our eyes, when we attune our senses to our surroundings before we begin our day, when we 'see' people we pass along the corridors, when we smell the flower by the road side (did you miss seeing that flower by the road side this morning?) What I'm getting at is everything we 'sense' is an experience. It is the choice we have whether to react (how then do we react) or do we withdraw (how far would we need to disengage). The last question is why. What is the motivation or reaction or disengaging?
People tell me I had missed the ninety's. I didn't miss it, it must have missed me! I was happy. To others I was seemingly oblivious to the world around me. My choices were just different choices not understood by the mass society. I knew the basics of what was happening around me, I just didn't have the socially acceptable reactions or prejudices as everyone thought I should. During this time, experience was my teacher. My intuition mainly, was and still is my teacher. IMO, what is resonant with me will not be so with someone else. I expect that. I am not a duplicate or visa versa of someone else. If I 'feel' I should engage more, I normally do. I wouldn't want to pass up an opportunity. Like with this discussion post. You, I, and everyone reading - we are all learning more, subtly perhaps, but learning non the less- we are learning though the nuggets - What is the nugget you are receiving from this? :ph34r:

If I come across a 'teacher', what makes that person a 'teacher'? I am the only one that will allow that person to be a teacher. Without a student, there won't be a teacher, tu ne crois pas? Who is better in trying to understand when they need a teacher? Isn't that what your are eluding to Jayke?

What an interesting discussion ;) !

I suppose it all comes down (and this is pretty obvious!) to whether one feels the need for a teacher. I don't disagree with anything you say above - but for me, it is not totally satisfying. There are many times when I have most definitely needed the help of a teacher - and the spiritual journey is no different.

If I have ever really wanted to learn anything in this world, I have searched out a teacher who can speed up the process and answer my questions. Then I can go away and explore and enjoy. When I learned to play the piano, I found a teacher when I had reached the point of frustration!
If I want to dabble in something just for fun to make myself feel good, I teach myself, which is a wonderfully enjoyable process. I am learning how to felt, and don't need the services of a teacher (yet!) as the results I am getting from doing it myself are totally satisfying.

I can only speak as a student of Tibetan Buddhism, but I do feel that we misunderstand the role of a teacher in the spiritual journey. They are there to remind you of the truth you already know - they are a spiritual friend, not an object of unquestioning obedience and devoted adoration! At all times, one needs to maintain one's critical abilities and take full responsibility to make one's own decisions. And if it's not working for you, a true teacher will happily watch you walk away to search elsewhere (as long as you are clear why you are moving on and it's not just to protect your wounds!).

But until then, unless one has a friend to challenge one's understanding and help break through one's habitual patterns (which stop us from seeing things as they are), the chances are that one will unfortunately just go round in circles.

We have all had experiences that have given us a negative view of "authority"...and it seems such a shame to throw the baby out with the bath water and allow suspicion to dismiss any need for help.

As you say, what DOES make a teacher a teacher? That is for each individual to find out (if they feel they need to, of course!): the illusion of authority - that no one has it as part of their intrinsic identity - is part of the Buddhist path. It's only through questioning, challenging, examining, testing, that that question will be answered for each individual.

Once one can remain consistently and stably beyond ego, one will have no further need of a teacher.

Best wishes
Kathie

[taizen]

"...the illusion of authority - that no one has it as part of their intrinsic identity - is part of the Buddhist path. It's only through questioning, challenging, examining, testing, that that question will be answered for each individual...." kathie :ear:

YES!! I do feel when the time comes, the person who 'has been there, done that' will be the instructor. I believe instructors are invaluable in that they are able to openly challenge and expand the horizon of thought to realms never imagined-why? The knowledge wasn't previously known to exist to the student. Much is required of the student. My own motto - If you're not learning, you're not living...

Restating what Tony previously said:

"...This reveals that reality is nothing other than wisdom. We need to look closely at the world we actually inhabit and to contemplate our most ordinary experiences. If we do so, if we let go of what we think and simply let the true being show itself, we will discover that it is nothing other than primordial immaculate wisdom." Tony

Tony, you have given me much, thank you. :thank_you2: