How we lived when the power went out

[Marianne]

This is my first post--hope I've done it right.
My family and I were without power for awhile when the southeast tornadoes blew through this past spring.
It was a taste of living off grid for a couple of weeks. I'd be happy to chat about it if anybody is interested.
Here's what I posted in the barter list post started by Arrowwind:
"In April we lost power for a number of days (tornados). We had to live in a semi-pioneer way. I did communal cooking with another family, because it was more work to do everything without all our conveniences. We all brought our food together and ate together at each meal. It was a valuable experience, and I brought away from it the notion that in a crisis, we don't have to be isolated, as we tend to be now. We exchanged our labor and skills and food, and it worked for the short term. I know long term communal life would not necessarily be a smooth ride. But I like the idea of each one bringing to the table what they have to offer, and accepting from others what they have to offer."

[Tony]

I've thought about this quite a bit. We are aiming at a big fish pond, chickens, solar power and a veggie garden and woodland. Pigs are good for clearing ground. But as you say community is the most important. I've seen a covered swimming pool not totally filled, used for fish and easy to water the plants under a huge plastic cover, very clever. That is the plan so far.

All the best
Tony

[Anno]

Thanks for offering to share your experience Junebug =]

I'm interested in what happened in terms of hierarchy. Did people still follow uniformed officials? Did some people try to take charge and others finding themselves being asked?

There have been two tv shows recently 'The Walking Dead' and 'Lost' that both show the people in charge as having some kind of authority in 'the old world'. A cop in TWD and a Doctor in Lost. Although Lost is more realistic and shows the underclasses of darkness being equally powerful.

[ulli]

I was in a hurricane (Tomas, Category 1) in Barbados last year, and a large part of the island was without power for a week afterwards.
The few hours when the winds hit were quite scary, the power had gone at 11 pm, and also the phone.
Cell phones still worked but I had forgotten to charge mine, since I really was unprepared...having just arrived there I was busy settling in and paid no attention to the weather until my husband (he was in Costa Rica) warned me about the storm at the last minute, and even then I paid little attention.
My advice is to charge your cell phones in advance. For some reason those towers functioned throughout.
But I was lucky as electricity returned within 48 hours...and some of my friends and relatives got to store their perishable food in my fridge, which was nearly empty anyway.
The cleanup was fun, the garden had lots of broken tree limbs and also many many bamboo leaves so you couldn't see the garden path any more.
Having been through it means somewhat my fears have diminished.
The same goes for earthquakes...I no longer have my nice China plates where they can fall and break...
but on the whole I'm not as scared as I used to be.
What doesn't kill you makes you stronger.

[Marianne]

I've thought about this quite a bit. We are aiming at a big fish pond, chickens, solar power and a veggie garden and woodland. Pigs are good for clearing ground. But as you say community is the most important. I've seen a covered swimming pool not totally filled, used for fish and easy to water the plants under a huge plastic cover, very clever. That is the plan so far.
All the best
Tony
Tony, it looks like you have done a lot of good prepping. The swimming pool as a catchment is a great idea! I've also seen people use a swimming pool hole (minus concrete) as a greenhouse, with a clear plastic or glass cover. It would extend the growing season, especially for cold weather crops like greens, lettuce and cabbage family plants.
Goats are also good for clearing land. I guess we wouldn't be using lawn mowers. My brother has goats--the fresh milk is good (it starts to smell after a day or 2) and you can make feta cheese or soothing goat milk soap.

[Marianne]

Thanks for offering to share your experience Junebug =]
I'm interested in what happened in terms of hierarchy. Did people still follow uniformed officials? Did some people try to take charge and others finding themselves being asked?
There have been two tv shows recently 'The Walking Dead' and 'Lost' that both show the people in charge as having some kind of authority in 'the old world'. A cop in TWD and a Doctor in Lost. Although Lost is more realistic and shows the underclasses of darkness being equally powerful.
Anno, The police put a curfew in place--it was 30 minutes after sunset, so once it was dark, anyone who was out needed to have a reason to be. Sadly, there were looters and ne'er-do-wells, esp right after. Once the curfew was set, a lot of that went away.
Most people were happy to have the police doing their jobs because it could've been much worse if their presence hadn't been a deterrant. Huntsville has a good police dept.
The people at radio stations seemed to be the most 'visible' ones in charge, because they gave everyone useful info and put people in touch with each other. There was a press conference each evening with the latest info from pre-appointed officials, like a doctor from our county medical society who is in charge of medical disaster relief. For example, he reminded us of food safety rules when there were lots of food poisoning cases at the hospital. There was one point, I think 3 days later, when they said not to eat anything from your refrigerator now.
Some folks just took charge and did what they saw to be done. I expect they are ones who are natural leaders anyway, like the church ladies who organize fundraisers and drives, PTA leaders and such. I was surprised there was so much help available from people and private businesses, not government. It did my heart good.
Our county has a medical team trained in disaster relief. I think it was put in place as a result of Hurricane Katrina. They were called into service for the April tornados.

[Robstar]

Been through 4 hurricanes and 1 over 6.5 earthquakes(central america). The longest I have been without running water,electricity and gas a has been for 4 weeks.
If you live in a smaller town or out in the country it is not so bad because people are more self reliant and know each other.
In the city it is a totally different story. The last storm I went through was Ike (Houston), with no power for 4 weeks. We had to stock gasoline for the generators. There was a mad dash for gasoline and supplies. Many incidents of gun play for supplies where documented. I experienced this when making a diesel run with a friend. A car pulled up behind us with four men and asked us what we where going to do with what they thought w gasoline drums on the truck. We quickly jumped inside the truck. They made comments like you are going to give it to us. We had weapons in the truck but just relaxed. They surrounded us and we quickly told them it was diesel fuel not gasoline. When they realized it was diesel they jumped in their car and sped off. In your own neighborhood it is a little better but it is down right scary to drive down a city street that is pitch dark with no street lights or any light and deadly debris everywhere. Just prepare some supplies and buy a solar charger so you can recharge a flash light or radio, at least.
I don't recommend having weapons unless you are trained in using them. Too many people loose their minds and too many people killing each other over nothing.
Prepare some supplies a stay calm under any circumstance is my best advice.:cool:

[Marianne]

I was in a hurricane (Tomas, Category 1) in Barbados last year, and a large part of the island was without power for a week afterwards.
The few hours when the winds hit were quite scary, the power had gone at 11 pm, and also the phone.
Cell phones still worked but I had forgotten to charge mine, since I really was unprepared...having just arrived there I was busy settling in and paid no attention to the weather until my husband (he was in Costa Rica) warned me about the storm at the last minute, and even then I paid little attention.
My advice is to charge your cell phones in advance. For some reason those towers functioned throughout.
But I was lucky as electricity returned within 48 hours...and some of my friends and relatives got to store their perishable food in my fridge, which was nearly empty anyway.
The cleanup was fun, the garden had lots of broken tree limbs and also many many bamboo leaves so you couldn't see the garden path any more.
Having been through it means somewhat my fears have diminished.
The same goes for earthquakes...I no longer have my nice China plates where they can fall and break...
but on the whole I'm not as scared as I used to be.
What doesn't kill you makes you stronger.

Ulli, good reminder about the cell phone--we had some use of cell phones if we went outdoors, but charging them was a problem. Having a car charger was golden, provided you have some gas in the tank!
My son's work had some generator power and he was able to charge his from that. My husband had a car charger for his.
I agree that going through a disaster puts things in perspective, so fear is less. And you learn practical things too.
--JB

[Marianne]

Been through 4 hurricanes and 1 over 6.5 earthquakes(central america). The longest I have been without running water,electricity and gas a has been for 4 weeks.
If you live in a smaller town or out in the country it is not so bad because people are more self reliant and know each other.
In the city it is a totally different story. The last storm I went through was Ike (Houston), with no power for 4 weeks. We had to stock gasoline for the generators. There was a mad dash for gasoline and supplies. Many incidents of gun play for supplies where documented. I experienced this when making a diesel run with a friend. A car pulled up behind us with four men and asked us what we where going to do with what they thought w gasoline drums on the truck. We quickly jumped inside the truck. They made comments like you are going to give it to us. We had weapons in the truck but just relaxed. They surrounded us and we quickly told them it was diesel fuel not gasoline. When they realized it was diesel they jumped in their car and sped off. In your own neighborhood it is a little better but it is down right scary to drive down a city street that is pitch dark with no street lights or any light and deadly debris everywhere. Just prepare some supplies and buy a solar charger so you can recharge a flash light or radio, at least.
I don't recommend having weapons unless you are trained in using them. Too many people loose their minds and too many people killing each other over nothing.
Prepare some supplies a stay calm under any circumstance is my best advice.:cool:
Robstar, I expect larger cities can be a different kettle of fish. Even here, there was one instance of a fist fight at a gas station. Police came and arrested some people. Tensions and tempers flare up when people feel trapped and desperate. Stocking up BEFORE a disaster is good advice.
But some people must have helped each other too?

[Niobe]

Solar chargers would be a good idea for cell phones and the like, as well.

[Marianne]

Solar chargers would be a good idea for cell phones and the like, as well.

Yep, good idea for the long term. Especially when gas is scarce.

[conk]

We were without power for 6 days. Certainly made it easy to develop a better list of things needed during a crisis. An inverter was the first thing I bought, using the car battery generate 110 volts (USA). A really good inverter will run a small refrigerator. You just have to start the car every few hours to charge the battery.

[RMorgan]

Man, it´s not that hard.

I´ve lived in the woods for 29 days, as an experience, with two other friends, here in Brazil, when I was about 17.

All we had was:

-A 7 persons army tent.
-Lighters.
-A first add kit.
-A take-down recurve bow, with 12 arrows.
-Simple fishing equipment.
-Some cooking pans.
-Salt.
-Cloths,blankets and personal hygiene products, obviously.
-An acoustic guitar,a harmonica, and a few bottles of vodka ;)

I was not hard at all. We had a good time, in fact!

We don´t need 99% of the stuff we currently have.

Of course, in a long term blackout, caused by a worldwide event, staying at home is not a choice, if you live in a big city. Your neighbor might become your worse enemy.

Have in mind, that safety is priority, not electricity.

[Carmody]

I was in a hurricane (Tomas, Category 1) in Barbados last year, and a large part of the island was without power for a week afterwards.
The few hours when the winds hit were quite scary, the power had gone at 11 pm, and also the phone.
Cell phones still worked but I had forgotten to charge mine, since I really was unprepared...having just arrived there I was busy settling in and paid no attention to the weather until my husband (he was in Costa Rica) warned me about the storm at the last minute, and even then I paid little attention.
My advice is to charge your cell phones in advance. For some reason those towers functioned throughout.
But I was lucky as electricity returned within 48 hours...and some of my friends and relatives got to store their perishable food in my fridge, which was nearly empty anyway.
The cleanup was fun, the garden had lots of broken tree limbs and also many many bamboo leaves so you couldn't see the garden path any more.
Having been through it means somewhat my fears have diminished.
The same goes for earthquakes...I no longer have my nice China plates where they can fall and break...
but on the whole I'm not as scared as I used to be.
What doesn't kill you makes you stronger.

Ulli, good reminder about the cell phone--we had some use of cell phones if we went outdoors, but charging them was a problem. Having a car charger was golden, provided you have some gas in the tank!
My son's work had some generator power and he was able to charge his from that. My husband had a car charger for his.
I agree that going through a disaster puts things in perspective, so fear is less. And you learn practical things too.
--JB

I have two generators. One for little stuff so I can go about my daily grind. 1000 watts. The big generator is for when I need to run the fridge and the water pump, etc. So it is only on for a few hours a day. I maximize efficiency this way. at least 60L , or 13-15 gallons, need to buy more, but remember to cycle it in usage, so it remains fresh. I'm also going to get a full size plastic drum or barrel from my friend who owns a factory. For gas and maybe water. Then I always have the MMS around.

A few solar panels, and 120V inverters, and deep cycle batteries. Oil lamps, LED lights with batteries, and a fireplace. With wood. Lotsa Booze! (which I don't have, I need to take my own advice and buy some), it is more valuable than humans or gold, if things go really bad.

You can trade with gold but , well, someone will be trading for booze. Meaning, if you think the world will finally be falling apart, a case of 12 bottles of scotch.... is easily worth 12 oz of gold. cigarettes and tobacco, too. People will have gold ---but they cannot get booze and cigarettes -anywhere. They will literally takes lives - for either.

Booze is king, in that world. Think about it.

I'm not a 'end of the world' freak, my power goes out where I'm at about 5-10 times a year, so it is necessary to have these things around. I'm also from the back woods, so I'm almost feeling naked if I don't own such things. For example, a large kitchen knife that is built in a way so it can do double duty as a sidearm. I saw it in a knife box at a junk place and got a big grin on my face, while thinking, "it was probably a northerner who designed this one....someone who understands these things."

http://www.ikea.com/us/en/catalog/products/90134953

My next purchase is a roll up solar panel.. One you can take on the road. And so on.

Oh yes, Meal replacement bars. Always have a few boxes of them around. Clif bars are an excellent choice. Probably the best.

http://www.clifbar.com/food/products_clif_bar/

[Carmody]

A cheap solar panel with a 12V car lighter/outlet socket. This allows you to plug in a 2-3-4-6-9-12V 'switchable' charger, into the solar panel. then that switcher can be used to plug in your given portable device.

Everyone should know a little bit about electricity and how to handle it. especially in this "modern" age.

Buy a couple of boxes of candles, make sure they are not made in China, those don't meet health code, even though they are allowed into stores. when you start using about 8 of them at a time, you'll find out how deadly the Chinese candles are.

this I know for a fact, as I had to deal with power being out in a house, for 7 days, in the middle of winter. I kept that house up and running for a week, and kept a 65 gallon tropical fish tank full of fish - alive.

I did it all with candles.

[Carmen]

One candle with a half circle of mirrors behind it lights incredibly well.

[Rocky_Shorz]

when it first happens it is fun, lighting candles, cooking under the sky, but as days pass, it becomes a pain in the ....


grass... ;)


a Prius can power a household with a converter, get a windmill generator that can run from your lawnmower or lift the back of your car, idle is almost as fast as a windmill can turn...

you can get PMAs on eBay for 2-500

or if you have a smart washer, it is a generator, so is a garbage disposal...

car altenator...

if you really need electricity there are ways to get it...

[red_rose]

This thread is really good.

It's wonderful to hear people's experiences and answers to, 'what if things get weird?' type scenario.

[Mandala]

Living in South Florida, we have experience from hurricanes also, like others mentioned. We have been without power for several weeks at a time. What always amazes me is the lack of coordination by FEMA and other agencies that are supposed to help. They may get ice or water but have never really thought of where or how they will give it out or deal with the number of people needing it. The need far surpasses what they are prepared for. They really seem disorganized.

For us there are so many threats, named storms heading this way, that may at the last minute veer off and go to the Carolinas, the Gulf or Texas. Most people who have been here long enough have a hurricane preparedness box or supplies. by the end of the season, you delved into the bottled water supply, eaten some of the canned goods, used most of the batteries without re-supplying. That is the key. We are going to re-supply, but haven't gotten around to it and then the next storm comes. You sometimes get a little complacent, thinking, "Oh it hasn't been that bad, we have enough left and then the big one hits and leaves you with not enough gas for the generator, not enough canned goods, not enough water, etc. Being up-to-date and replenishing, is what I have seen as a major downfall. Another thing you need to do is print up maps, addresses, phone numbers (in case they work), and have a "Family Plan." With that, a Plan B, and Plan C and D.

My family recently talked about this under the "premise of a hurricane" like what happened in New Orleans. We talked about where to go out of state, where to meet, especially if we could not make contact with each other. I can not tell them why we are really discussing this, because I am dealing with 2 hardcore mainstream in-field scientists who believe the government and think Mom's little hobby is nuts. There is no threat, there are no problems, there are no lies. LOL (Give me a break, how frustrating)

How will we communicate? How will we get "real updates? We should probably have areas of the country, and a phrase or sign so we could find like-minded people.

Back four years ago when I fell down the Rabbit Hole, I knew I had to have a plan. These are a few of the things I picked up at various websites. There are also some downloads, here are a few resources that might help.

Downloads:

http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread645548/pg1 RUSSO (post)

#10. FM 4-25-11 First Aid (2002) - Military First Aid Manual. First aid information is a must – get training before you need it – use this manual for reference.

#9. Guide to Canning – Being able to preserve crops to be able to provide for yourself and your family long after the growing season is over is important. This guide will help with that.

#8. Rangers Handbook (2006) – Crammed with info on demolitions, booby traps, communications, patrolling, tactical movement, battle drills, combat intelligence and much more

#7. Where There is No Dentist - The author uses straightforward language and careful instructions to explain how to: examine patients; diagnose common dental problems; make and use dental equipment; use local anesthetics; place fillings; and remove teeth.

#6. NATO Emergency War Surgery – While this is certainly not a manual that would stand alone in most persons emergency/disaster library, it is an absolutely necessary resource if you expect to handle any type of trauma where immediate comprehensive medical care is not available.

#5. A Guide to Raised Bed Gardening – This is not an “all knowing” gardening book – however it provides a lot of information to the “urban gardener” before or after TSHTF. Best to get the experience and knowledge of gardening NOW rather than later.

#4. FM 3-06 Combined Arms Operations in Urban Terrain - Combat techniques covered in the manual which may be very valuable in a “Roadwarrior”-type world.

#3. 1881 Household Cyclopedia – A massive resource of information that much of it has been lost over the past 203 generations. From Angling to Knitting – its here.

#2. FM 21-76-1 Survival-Evasion-Recovery (1999) – Excellent manual geared towards the soldier that finds himself behind enemy lines

#1. FM 21-76 US Army Survival Manual - From Amazon.com: This manual has been written to help you acquire survival skills. It tells you how to travel, find water and food, shelter yourself from the weather and care for yourself if you become sick or injured. This information is first treated generally and then applied specifically to such special areas as the Arctic, the desert, the jungle and the ocean.1970 Military Issue Manual. General Introduction and Individual and Group Survival Orientation Navigation, Finding Water In All Parts of The Globe. How To Obtain Food, Start a Fire and much more!


Books:

http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread657994/pg1 ROYAL76 (post)
1. How to Survive the End of the World as We Know It: Tactics, Techniques, and Technologies for Uncertain Times by James Wesley Rawles

2. SAS Survival Handbook, Revised Edition: For Any Climate, in Any Situation by John "Lofty" Wiseman

3. When All Hell Breaks Loose: Stuff You Need To Survive When Disaster Strikes by Cody Lundin

Preparing

1. Handbook to Practical Disaster Preparedness for the Family by Arthur T. Bradley

Escaping

2. Bug Out: The Complete Plan for Escaping a Catastrophic Disaster Before It's Too Late by Scott B. Williams

Water

1. Water Storage: Tanks, Cisterns, Aquifers, and Ponds for Domestic Supply, Fire and Emergency Use--Includes How to Make Ferrocement Water Tanks by Art Ludwig

2. Rainwater Harvesting for Drylands and Beyond (Vol. 2): Water-Harvesting Earthworks by Brad Lancaster

Food

1. Emergency Food Storage & Survival Handbook: Everything You Need to Know to Keep Your Family Safe in a Crisis by Peggy Layton

2. How To Bury Your Goods: The Complete Manual of Long Term Underground Storage by Eddie the Wire

3. The Modern Hunter-Gatherer-A Practical Guide to Living Off the Land by Tony Nester

4. The Complete Guide to Building Your Own Greenhouse: A Complete Step-by-Step Guide (Back-To-Basics) by Craig Byrd

Medical

1. When There Is No Doctor: Preventive and Emergency Healthcare in Uncertain Times (Process Self-reliance Series) by Gerard S. Doyle

2. Where There Is No Dentist by Murray Dickson

3. Emergency War Surgery by NATO

4. US Army Special Forces Medical Handbook by Department of the Army

Weapons/Defense

1. Beginners Guide to Guns and Shooting by Clair Rees

2. The Elite Forces Handbook of Unarmed Combat by Ron Shillingford

3. Krav Maga: How to Defend Yourself Against Armed Assault by Eyal Yanilov

Shelter

1. Building Small Barns, Sheds & Shelters by Monte Burch

2. Shelters, shacks, and shanties: The classic guide to building wilderness shelters by D.C. Beard

3. How to Implement a High Security Shelter in the Home by Joel Skousen

4. The Fifty Dollar and Up Underground House Book by Mike Oehler


This blueprint is actually from the Oak Ridge DOE lab site, where you can download the blueprints for a wood gas generator, which is what I have done. www.global-greenhouse-warming.com...

Another gas generator site: www.shtfmilitia.com...

Making steam power: www.mikebrownsolutions.com...

How to make your own bio fuels: www.builditsolar.com...

Fema - water storage:
www.nationalterroralert.com...

From Mississippi State College, preparing food with no electricity:
srdc.msstate.edu...

Here is a site with many different option plans on building a solar cooker, out of boxes and tin foil, solarcooking.org...

Building your own solar water pump:
www.backwoodshome.com...

This next site, is about surviving a disaster and you will find a ton of different information sites on every type disaster. All around good info.
www.lacetoleather.com...

All about dehydrating foods:
www.associatedcontent.com...

And perserving your dehydrated foods:
hubpages.com...

An online backcountry cooking book and preparedness for the wilderness:
backcountry cooking
This is very interesting, this is a site that shows you how to clean your used motor oil to be able to use it again, great info. Also at this site, it explains how to get the old and dead engine batteries alive once more -
www.endtimesreport.com...

How to build and use a solar still:
www.motherearthnews.com...

How to make a solar power generator:
www.rain.org...

Solar heat grabber:
www.motherearthnews.com...

Here is a site about Edible plants:
www.wikihow.com...

I have actually purchased two books on every kind of edible plant we have. There are many available, I like the ones with pictures! So I can identify them.

More edible plant info www.associatedcontent.com...

another edible plant site, what is interesting here, is all about catails plants, they are very versatile in what you can make with them.
www.wildmanstevebrill.com...

For those, who are possibly storing food, here is info on waxing cheese - when you do that, it will last for a very long time and it will just age. I can verify this works, I won't even tell you how many pounds of cheese I have stored and waxed. www.clc.uc.edu...

Much thanks to the posters at ATS, where I originally obtained this information. Blessings, Mandalla

[Marianne]

Wow, Mandala, that's quite a post. Some great resources. Thanks for putting it together.
-------

'How will we communicate? How will we get "real updates? We should probably have areas of the country, and a phrase or sign so we could find like-minded people.'

Does anyone have any ideas?

[Tane Mahuta]

Wooow!!...good post mandala, downloading now. A lot of reading folks.

Big thanks to Junebug for the tread
TM

[Carmody]

A cheap solar panel with a 12V car lighter/outlet socket. This allows you to plug in a 2-3-4-6-9-12V 'switchable' charger, into the solar panel. then that switcher can be used to plug in your given portable device.

Everyone should know a little bit about electricity and how to handle it. especially in this "modern" age.

Buy a couple of boxes of candles, make sure they are not made in China, those don't meet health code, even though they are allowed into stores. when you start using about 8 of them at a time, you'll find out how deadly the Chinese candles are.

this I know for a fact, as I had to deal with power being out in a house, for 7 days, in the middle of winter. I kept that house up and running for a week, and kept a 65 gallon tropical fish tank full of fish - alive.

I did it all with candles.

If the power goes out in the winter..and you find out it going to be a long time before it comes back on, you need a hammer and some nails..and something like 'horse blankets', to divide the house into thermal zones.

One box of clear garbage bags and one box of green or dark bags. Pair of scissors..and a few rolls of duct tape, to seal off the windows, so heat does not escape. That is the other part of how I did it. If you can find or buy those plastic silvered/metalized thermal emergency blankets, that is even better for reflecting the heat back in, as a window and window frame cover. Remember to seal the attic access port/door, as that represents a major heat loss point.

[chancy]

Good Day! It's an interesting thread since our neighbor since 1999 build a brand new home with all the bells and whistles such as floor heating, natural gas boiler to heat the water. A water system from his big pond. Large septic field and water cistern for water.
As soon as he finished everything since he is a journeyman plumber and pipe fitter by trade shut of the power, natural gas and everything else. Basically went back to the 1700's. He lived this way until this spring. Being around him alot I found that he had lots of time to read, learn to play the guitar and alot of other things most people never get to in life.
Our winters get down to 40 below zero on both scales. Fahrenheit and metric. With a wind chill of sometimes another 20 degrees. He survived very well and never complained a bit. It's very, very possible to live off the grid and live well since I saw him do it. It reminded me of when I was a kid with no running water etc. We did always have heat though. Our neighbor ran a little propane space heater only on those minus 40 nights. He learned to live well in even the cold.
If a person keeps their wits about them its easy and very possible to live without everything we take for granted.
The only thing a person can not do is panic. That will definitely get you in trouble. Our neighbor was and still is as laid back as anyone I have ever met.
Regards,
Chancy