comply or die.

[manny]

lol .comply or die works on many levels.
i believe in many things and i have a opnion.
but when you cross that threshold ,you may get cut off.

so where does that threshold start and end?

again i say heirachy is in full swing.

when we can act and behave as one without a judge in a court of law.
then we may make progress.

but when we have people who think themselves as judges,and passing a judgement on a menial subject in the alternitive community,then we have a problem.
and that problem is free speech.

give someone a little power and they will abuse it.

let people say what they have to without judgement.
give it a go.you may be surprised at the outcome.

please say i am wrong.

[shadowstalker]

sorry can't say your wrong cuz ur right. some folks think power must be used all the time and that is not the case, power need only be used when needed, not for the pure sake of it.

[manny]

Paul ,Ilie,
chill out this is not negative ,but a learning curve for everyone.
when we can say what we need to then everyone learns.
when we cannot then are we affraid to speak,and no one learns.
take it in your heart that what you know is true.

[ulli]

Manny you are wrong!
The fact is it's not an either-or world...it is both.
And you are not focusing on expressing your inner creative energy.

There will always be hierarchy as long as people have children
Parents are boss...

There will always be deception as long as people have children...
Parents make up Santa Claus stories...

There will always be rebellions as long as people have children
Parents are authority.

When the child wants to be free from authority he moves out,
and the parents keep the house and the keys.

[shadowstalker]

Paul ,Ilie,
chill out this is not negative ,but a learning curve for everyone.
when we can say what we need to then everyone learns.
when we cannot then are we affraid to speak,and no one learns.
take it in your heart that what you know is true.
Thanks for post your last statement,
I was gunna say the same basic thing in the other thread you started, but then it got LOCKED,

[Ilie Pandia]

Dear Manny,

You knew when you've joined this forum that this a moderated forum. I don't know what you understand by "free speech" but that does not mean that "anything goes here". The forum rules are here for a reason.

While I agree that we should reach a phase where forum moderation is not required and the forum doors are open for everybody we are not there yet.

The moderation actions are bound to upset some members, there is no way around it.

You are being very combative and aggressive and I don't think it's fair. Try to remember the times when the moderation team was supportive of you and write about that too... why aren't you starting threads about that? That is easy to forget, no?

I am upset with you Manny.

[shadowstalker]

Manny you are wrong!
The fact is it's not an either-or world...it is both.
And you are not focusing on expressing your inner creative energy.

There will always be hierarchy as long as people have children
Parents are boss...

There will always be deception as long as people have children...
Parents make up Santa Claus stories...

There will always be rebellions as long as people have children
Parents are authority.

When the child wants to be free from authority he moves out,
and the parents keep the house and the keys.

I guess that depends on how we are raised,
The only reason my folks would keep a key is to keep burglars out( when they leave the house) , other then that we enter as we plz.

[manny]

it,s about freedom of speech,love and compassion.
one forum for everyone.
but i feel their are a few minor changes to be made,to make it a better forum.
we should not be scared as to what we post.

[shadowstalker]

You are being very combative and aggressive

I don't see anywhere where he is being this way, we all have a right to answers and to ask the question without fear.

[ulli]

Manny you are wrong!
The fact is it's not an either-or world...it is both.
And you are not focusing on expressing your inner creative energy.

There will always be hierarchy as long as people have children
Parents are boss...

There will always be deception as long as people have children...
Parents make up Santa Claus stories...

There will always be rebellions as long as people have children
Parents are authority.

When the child wants to be free from authority he moves out,
and the parents keep the house and the keys.

I guess that depends on how we are raised,
The only reason my folks would keep a key is to keep burglars out( when they leave the house) , other then that we enter as we plz.

That means either that you never rebelled and made their lives hell.
Also it means they didn't have 4000+ children.

[manny]

to Ilie this forum has help me greatly.
as we all know.
but don,t subject me to a person who has to conform because i have been helped.
i needed it at that time and it was helpful.
emotional blackmail does not come into my vocabulry.
i still have free will as we all do.

but like i say we can all learn by this ,it is not a bad experience,only if you perceive it to be negative.

we all learn by each others experiences,whether it be bad or good.
positive or negative.
ying,yang.
be a medietor

[ThePythonicCow]

we all have a right to answers and to ask the question without fear.
Sometimes fear is the responsibility of one party, sometimes of the other.

I cannot take responsibility for ensuring you feel no fear here. I can only take responsibility for doing the best I can by the forum and its members.

[shadowstalker]

you are not focusing on expressing your inner creative energy.

REALLY???
seems he is focused to me, his creativity is focused on the main event that which he is speaking, free speech and such is of one of the highest of all creativeness and posing the questions he poses just augments that creativity.

[manny]

i am sorry if i upset you.
but i am not interested if i upset or someone enjoys my opinions,
what i am interested in is the truth.
and by sending people on a vacation because it may not have fit in your feild of vision,upsets me.
so where is your non judgemental views.

[Ilie Pandia]

Manny, I did not see my post as a emotional black mail or asking for payback. I am just saying that from where I am standing you are being unfair to call us power hungry when, in my opinion, you should know better :)

[shadowstalker]

Manny you are wrong!
The fact is it's not an either-or world...it is both.
And you are not focusing on expressing your inner creative energy.

There will always be hierarchy as long as people have children
Parents are boss...

There will always be deception as long as people have children...
Parents make up Santa Claus stories...

There will always be rebellions as long as people have children
Parents are authority.

When the child wants to be free from authority he moves out,
and the parents keep the house and the keys.

I guess that depends on how we are raised,
The only reason my folks would keep a key is to keep burglars out( when they leave the house) , other then that we enter as we plz.

That means either that you never rebelled and made their lives hell.
Also it means they didn't have 4000+ children.

Maybe it's because my folks are highly spiritual and yes I wreaked havoc with my folks, but they where forgiving, I personally only moved out because I had a boyfriend at the time and got tired of moving from place to place all the time. And my folks had a fit over the fact that I wanted to move out, they wanted me to stay and so did I but my new life was more important then other things like moving, in fact my folks still to this day want me to move back in, to to be quite honest i want to.

And yes I don't need a key because i am family,

Even when my folks gave the old "because I say so " i questioned it, asking for something to back it up. they didn't like it but hey if one is going to use power then use it wisely.

But we are not children here are we?
we are still asking the old question why , why not with a reason to back it up and not excuses.

[greybeard]

Freedom of speech brings responsibility.
It might be free but it was hard won.

I went to a positive thinking seminar and the main speaker invited two from the audience to stand beside him.
They were positioned about 6ft on either side of him--- he started waving his arms about to his side-- all fine.
several times he invited the guys closer- all fine but the last time it was obvious if he continued as before he would have hit the bystanders quite hard.
So the moral was that you act as you please until you affect others adversely.

I understand where you are coming from Manny but some people dont realize when they are acting inappropriately and then the common good or reputation of the group, or for that matter, an individual member, is being threatened..

Some one has to set acceptable standards and maintain them. (the standards vary from forum to forum)

Some I saw heading for a holiday and it was hard to believe that they did not know they were pushing their luck.
I pushed my luck several times as I had a loyalty to two diferent and opposing sets of people-- I could see both points of view and stated so.
People found it hard to believe that I could maintain a neutrality when pointing out that both erred.
I was supposed to take sides.

Thats beside the point but we dont live in a perfect society where people can be expected to do the right thing-- we cant even agree upon what is the right thing.

I felt sometimes the mods were a bit trigger happy in the early days but on the whole I feel they got it right all credit to them.
Some poster just like to live on the edge push the envelope and all credit to them most of what they say is of great value.

Anyway it is as it is.

Regards Chris

[pickle]

it,s about freedom of speech,love and compassion.
one forum for everyone.
but i feel their are a few minor changes to be made,to make it a better forum.
we should not be scared as to what we post.

It would be nice to have any place that is genuinely free (freedom of speech), full of love and compassion, but this is just a public forum - a very, very good one - but still a place for many different personalities to meet.... where our mistakes, and dif'rent takes could rub someone up the wrong way. It's inevitable.

'You can't please all the people all the time' (no matter what the spiritual intent of this place is...) - so why expect this forum to be the place you want it to be? What if another person wants it run differently to you? It's not ours, someone else owns it, we come here to mingle for as long as we do, then we move on.

As for Lord Sid being on a break, I have no idea why he's on one, though I do know he's got a heart of gold I'd like him back here asap, I hope the waters calm down soon.

[manny]

i feel to close a thread as quickly as it was started without a full explaination is also unfair.
please appreciate that this is not a argument but a way to see sense.
we all have opnions,whether we like some or not ,but to be sent on vacation?

are we able to see our goods ands falts in what we do.

without the ego taking over.

[ulli]

you are not focusing on expressing your inner creative energy.

REALLY???
seems he is focused to me, his creativity is focused on the main event that which he is speaking, free speech and such is of one of the highest of all creativeness and posing the questions he poses just augments that creativity.

Free speech can be creative, and it can be destructive.
Motive and self image determine how far one wants to go.

There have been many instances here where someone wanted to make major policy changes
which is not going to happen as long as Bill is not around to have the final word.

There are situations in life that require a "take it, or leave it" attitude.

If I was going to be bull-headed about something that irks me here
would I risk undermining my membership?
Maybe, if I could easily replace Avalon as a platform of self-expression.

Choices must be made, consequences must be considered,
and all in the context of a greater picture.

If your self-image demands that you play the role of rebel leader
and revolutionary at all cost, do what you must...
just be sure it was worth it.

[shadowstalker]

you guys have completely missed his point and many others, if the mods are considering manny and others to be a rebel here by asking honest questions on the affairs of the forum then whats the point.

[Omni connexae!]

let people say what they have to without judgement.
give it a go.you may be surprised at the outcome.


it,s about freedom of speech... one forum for everyone... we should not be scared as to what we post.

www.4chan.org

www.godlikeproductions.com

:yes4:

[manny]

ok is it possible for the mods to reconsider their lengths of banning a person.
maybe a 24 hour first.
then reconsider.
peoples opinions change with learning.
mine has many times.

[Sierra]

i feel to close a thread as quickly as it was started without a full explaination is also unfair.
please appreciate that this is not a argument but a way to see sense.
we all have opnions,whether we like some or not ,but to be sent on vacation?

are we able to see our goods ands falts in what we do.

without the ego taking over.

Manny, I am not sure what else we could have done. If a member calls another member a name, how would people feel to see this person get away with it and not another member? Should we start using a double standard for those you feel a preference towards? Do you not think far more people would have been upset at favoritism? Or scared they could be insulted and no one would care?

[shadowstalker]

Free speech can be creative, and it can be destructive.

I don't see where he is being destructive.

Motive and self image determine how far one wants to go.
i don't see that with manny either

¤=[Post Update]=¤

problem with being offended is this
one day that person would be the next not, itchie trigger fingures should be steadied.

[manny]

we all get called names in the real world.
why not the cyber world?
we could have recitifified that with words of wisdom.
not a banning.
like i said people get heated.
unless you want to be like a lemming.
say your piece and take what comes,whether you are right or wrong.
but be sure someone will learn from it .

[Sierra]

we all get called names in the real world.
why not the cyber world?
we could have recitifified that with words of wisdom.
not a banning.
like i said people get heated.
unless you want to be like a lemming.
say your piece and take what comes,whether you are right or wrong.
but be sure someone will learn from it .

This is a moderated forum Manny. Do you REALLY want us to be like GLP? Did you see that link above from Omni connexae? I went to the link and was told I was BANNED and it is the very first time I set foot on the site <falling over laughing>!

He did say his piece and he went on vacation for a week. He insulted someone and took the consequence. I tell you Manny, it is a slippery slope to ban one member for an insult and not to ban another member for the same infraction. The forum rules are you cannot insult a fellow member. Period. We are to treat each other with respect. How is this not wisdom or at least common sense?

[manny]

Free speech can be creative, and it can be destructive.

I don't see where he is being destructive.

Motive and self image determine how far one wants to go.
i don't see that with manny either

¤=[Post Update]=¤

problem with being offended is this
one day that person would be the next not, itchie trigger fingures should be steadied.
free speech can be destructive.
of course it can.
but where have anyone on avalon been destructive?

self image is no matter,i want what is true for all.

if you asked these questions they have come from you ,look in the mirror,and ask your self what you want.
don,t judge me.

[Seikou-Kishi]

"Comply or die"

How melodramatic we are when we wish to impress our point on others. Might the better choice be "adhere to the rules or leave"?

Hyperbole does you no credit.

[manny]

"Comply or die"

How melodramatic we are when we wish to impress our point on others. Might the better choice be "adhere to the rules or leave"?

Hyperbole does you no credit.
i know but nothing else came to mind.
drama...

[manny]

"Comply or die"

How melodramatic we are when we wish to impress our point on others. Might the better choice be "adhere to the rules or leave"?

Hyperbole does you no credit.
i can how see you are looking into resovlve this situation.
probably without looking at the origanal post.
just jump in.....

[Seikou-Kishi]

"Comply or die"

How melodramatic we are when we wish to impress our point on others. Might the better choice be "adhere to the rules or leave"?

Hyperbole does you no credit.
i can how see you are looking into resovlve this situation.
probably without looking at the origanal post.
just jump in.....

Oh no, I read your post, and the others in this thread. I found you most illuminating, as ever, my good man. Speaking of having overlooked a few posts, Sierra has questions you seem to have missed.

[ulli]

I used the parent-children analogy as an example of established hierarchy
in response to Manny after he made an argument against hierarchy.

In nature there is no equality...all is governed by hierarchy.
Equality is an ideal, something to strive for.

A healthy society makes sure everyone is equal before the law...
but those laws are created by wise leaders, who are elected by
and have won the respect of the people.
In a healthy society both hierarchy and equality can coexist.

Paul, how many people wrote you that you had been unfair to Lord Sid?
If 200 members asked you to reconsider the vacation would you reconsider?

[Providence]

You have to have some level of trust in people. I happen to agree with the Mods, because I believe that if we allow anyone to say anything they want in the name of free speech, we will lose valuable members. There has to be a line drawn in the sand, and although I don't know all the facts about Lord Sidious' situation, I think we need someone to limit the ceiling on what is suitable for the forum and we can discuss it openly, but in the end we need to put some trust in those that oversee the forum. I think a lot of Lord Sidious, I respect his ability to go straight to the heart of the matter on a thread topic. But, with all due respect, the Mods could not, and should not, publicly air the details, and I respect that.
It is my understanding that Sid was upset because he could not get a response from the Mods, and I understand why he would be questioning their decision, but ultimately the applicants were the ones that needed to pursue this and not Sid.
The poll concerning Bill and Anelia that was taken down this morning is yet another example of something that crosses a boundary, and I think that was a good ethical choice to remove it from the forum. We should not be delving into the same type of destructive hyperbole that is so common in the world today. Bill is not someone that is untouchable, above any of us, he just deserves respect for all he has done and for his contributions to our knowledge and this forum, as an elder if nothing else.
I think this topic is going too far, the Mods are doing what they think is appropriate and if we as members cannot live with their choices, we are free to go somewhere else. Let's try viewing the Mods not as enemies, power hungry and overbearing, but as equal members who collectively try to do the right thing. And they are just as human as we are, and they will make mistakes or make bad judgements at times. But overall I have felt very comfortable with their decisions, the way that they handle themselves, and the members they are dealing with during these times.
Peace!

[shadowstalker]

A healthy society makes sure everyone is equal before the law...
but those laws are created by wise leaders, who are elected by
and have won the respect of the people.
If that where true then I would stand by you on that, 100%

[manny]

I used the parent-children analogy as an example of established hierarchy
in response to Manny after he made an argument against hierarchy.

In nature there is no equality...all is governed by hierarchy.
Equality is an ideal, something to strive for.

A healthy society makes sure everyone is equal before the law...
but those laws are created by wise leaders, who are elected by
and have won the respect of the people.
In a healthy society both hierarchy and equality can coexist.

Paul, how many people wrote you that you had been unfair to Lord Sid?
If 200 members asked you to reconsider the vacation would you reconsider?
sorry ulli but you know and i know that is bollocks.
we all know that if we overstep the barriers that a mod would ban them.
but where are the barriers to self?
we have not asked 200 people,have we.
again just a idea!
take it into consideration.
if we did you might be surprised at the outcome.

[Omni connexae!]

sorry ulli but you know and i know that is bollocks.

Care to provide some reasoning?

[manny]

question...
who are we to judge?
when we all learn from other peoples mistakes.

do not judge a man until you have walked a mile in his shoes.

¤=[Post Update]=¤



sorry ulli but you know and i know that is bollocks.

Care to provide some reasoning?

i could .
but why spoil the fun.
seek and you will find.

[Seikou-Kishi]

question...
who are we to judge?
when we all learn from other peoples mistakes.

do not judge a man until you have walked a mile in his shoes.

Have you walked a mile in Paul's shoes? Or Ilie's? No, yet you continue to heap upon them indictments and accusations of nefariousness.

[Omni connexae!]

sorry ulli but you know and i know that is bollocks.

Care to provide some reasoning?

i could .
but why spoil the fun.
seek and you will find.

Nonsense..

[manny]

question...
who are we to judge?
when we all learn from other peoples mistakes.

do not judge a man until you have walked a mile in his shoes.

Have you walked a mile in Paul's shoes? Or Ilie's? No, yet you continue to heap upon them indictments and accusations of nefariousness.
no i have not.
and this is not a attack against anybody,but to reconsider the timeline of a ban.
Oliver calm down,we are all on a learning curve.
if it be at my expense.

[Seikou-Kishi]

You are mistaken if you think I am not calm; perhaps you fancy that you have riled me up. You have not.

So this is a learning curve, is it? It seems you've quite taken to the pedagogy, Manny, because all I have seen of late is your pontificating about how others ought to change to come into line with your way of thinking. Here, you conflate "coming to agree with me" with "coming to know", or learning, and I would contend that they are poles apart.

[manny]

[/COLOR]

sorry ulli but you know and i know that is bollocks.

Care to provide some reasoning?

i could .
but why spoil the fun.
seek and you will find.

Your full of sh*t.

No offence.
non taken.
you make up your own mind.
if you cannot.
i can point you in the the direction of people who will.

¤=[Post Update]=¤


You are mistaken if you think I am not calm; perhaps you fancy that you have riled me up. You have not.

So this is a learning curve, is it? It seems you've quite taken to the pedagogy, Manny, because all I have seen of late is your pontificating about how others ought to change to come into line with your way of thinking. Here, you conflate "coming to agree with me" with "coming to know", or learning, and I would contend that they are poles apart.
if i am wrong please tell me so.
does my opinion not matter.
i speak what i think is right.
educate me.

Oliver i am who i am.

[shadowstalker]

a friend of mine here is reading along side me and and even she thinks this is crap, of what SOME mods are doing here on this forum (You know the ones with the guilty conscious of either thinking or doing the blocking or banning) of certain issues and not wanting to really hear the whole story but making up lame excuses of there abuse of power. you know the ones, the ones that dredge up the old "1984" way of thinking. Her words not mine.

[Donna O]

I feel somewhat caught between discussions as I have recently left the moderator team and can see both sides. I hope what I have to say will be beneficial to all views of this subject.

Whilst on the mod team, I did suggest that we have a representative that can liaise between the moderators and the ‘normal’ members. Working as a kind of mediator in a joint effort to move forward and create a healthy and lasting community.

The reason I think this would be helpful is because there is very much an ‘us and them’ situation on the forum and someone needs to bridge the divide with ideas and compromise that everyone can live with.

These ‘representatives’ can be placed on a members only portion of the website where issues are brought to the table and discussed, without the fear of moderation or banning - or being ear marked as an agent provocateur. A kind of no mans land.

We could have several members of different personalities, outlooks and strengths to bring forward current issues, ideas and proposals to the moderators table.

For example, when a person has been banned, a representative of this person could come forward and argue the banned member’s case. Was the banning too severe, was it a validated measure. How is it beneficial to the community? What can the banned do better when he/she returns? The Mod’s can put forward their views and if nothing else, maybe lessons could be learned on both sides of the fence. As we negotiate together.

What do you all think?

[Providence]

question...
who are we to judge?
when we all learn from other peoples mistakes.

do not judge a man until you have walked a mile in his shoes.

Have you walked a mile in Paul's shoes? Or Ilie's? No, yet you continue to heap upon them indictments and accusations of nefariousness.
no i have not.
and this is not a attack against anybody,but to reconsider the timeline of a ban.
Oliver calm down,we are all on a learning curve.
if it be at my expense.

Manny, I feel that your are being disingenuous when you say that this wasn't an attack but just a discussion towards reconsidering the timeline of a ban. The thread is named 'comply or die' and your opening statement is quite pointed....

[Sierra]

A bit disappointed in your lack of response to valid questions Manny. Also don't hear what you think we should have done differently. Or is it the fact that it was a moderator that was insulted make a difference to you?

Describe to me what YOU would have done as moderator if someone had insulted a fellow member in blatant disregard to forum rules.

And Manny sez: i could .
but why spoil the fun.

Fun. Oh. I see. Clarity arrives. Manny is not being serious. Manny is playing, with such vaunted care and concern about a subject that DOES concern others ...

Why ask questions then in response to his original post. He doesn't want an honest dialogue in my opinion.

Sierra

[manny]

I feel somewhat caught between discussions as I have recently left the moderator team and can see both sides. I hope what I have to say will be beneficial to all views of this subject.

Whilst on the mod team, I did suggest that we have a representative that can liaise between the moderators and the ‘normal’ members. Working as a kind of mediator in a joint effort to move forward and create a healthy and lasting community.

The reason I think this would be helpful is because there is very much an ‘us and them’ situation on the forum and someone needs to bridge the divide with ideas and compromise that everyone can live with.

These ‘representatives’ can be placed on a members only portion of the website where issues are brought to the table and discussed, without the fear of moderation or banning - or being ear marked as an agent provocateur. A kind of no mans land.

We could have several members of different personalities, outlooks and strengths to bring forward current issues, ideas and proposals to the moderators table.

For example, when a person has been banned, a representative of this person could come forward and argue the banned member’s case. Was the banning too severe, was it a validated measure. How is it beneficial to the community? What can the banned do better when he/she returns? The Mod’s can put forward their views and if nothing else, maybe lessons could be learned on both sides of the fence. As we negotiate together.

What do you all think?

brilliant.
but where did it go.
thats the question.

[Donna O]

If I thought I could help I certainly would - though perhaps people can be nominated, if it is thought this is a good idea, and we can poll the results. I was thinking five or six people

[shadowstalker]

now we are getting some where

[Seikou-Kishi]

brilliant.
but where did it go.
thats the question.

That's the question? There are still several of Sierra's which you haven't answered, in case you'd forgotten...

[thunder24]

brilliant.
but where did it go.
thats the question.

That's the question? There are still several of Sierra's which you haven't answered, in case you'd forgotten...

but where did the idea go? I would like to know also...great idea

peace

[ThePythonicCow]

If 200 members asked you to reconsider the vacation would you reconsider?
Of course we reconsider, even on the basis of a single message, with new evidence or insight to how better to handle a situation.

Just ask manny ... he himself was once the beneficiary of such a reconsideration of the length of suspension.

[Providence]

brilliant.
but where did it go.
thats the question.

I'm sorry but I disagree, no offense to anyone, I think this just adds another layer of bureaucracy and it complicates things. And I also don't feel that there should be a separate 'room' for things such as this.

[Donna O]

The idea was just an idea and it wasn't developed. People have to agree that it is a good idea first and that was never really decided. I think it would be good to see everyone who is interested to comment and say what they think (also to state if they would be prepared to help)

[thunder24]

The parking lot is still a good idea too

peace

[Donna O]

I'm sorry but I disagree, no offense to anyone, I think this just adds another layer of bureaucracy and it complicates things. And I also don't feel that there should be a separate 'room' for things such as this.
Good! We need both sides of the argument. The separate room is not private, just a designated area of the forum for doing the mediation

[Sierra]

I'm sorry but I disagree, no offense to anyone, I think this just adds another layer of bureaucracy and it complicates things. And I also don't feel that there should be a separate 'room' for things such as this.

I'm exhausted just thinking about it Providence. We're stretched thin as it is.

[manny]

A bit disappointed in your lack of response to valid questions Manny. Also don't hear what you think we should have done differently. Or is it the fact that it was a moderator that was insulted make a difference to you?

Describe to me what YOU would have done as moderator if someone had insulted a fellow member in blatant disregard to forum rules.

And Manny sez: i could .
but why spoil the fun.

Fun. Oh. I see. Clarity arrives. Manny is not being serious. Manny is playing, with such vaunted care and concern about a subject that DOES concern others ...

Why ask questions then in response to his original post. He doesn't want an honest dialogue in my opinion.

Sierra
agreed this topic has gone on a few hours and may have gone off course.
no it was not a bit of fun...quite the opposite ,anyone who knows me knows that i will stand by what i believe.
but i am also open to many new pepectives.
as this was my origanal post.
so i say again who is to judge who is right and wrong on a alternative media forum.
who banned Lord Sid.
how many people stood behind that banning.
who represented him.
are we not in a court of ****ing law as paul said.
do you not see yourselfs as judges.

[Seikou-Kishi]

I'm sorry but I disagree, no offense to anyone, I think this just adds another layer of bureaucracy and it complicates things. And I also don't feel that there should be a separate 'room' for things such as this.

From a moderator's point of view; it might be nice to increase beaurocracy. I'm reminded that governments create so many different agencies that it becomes impossible to correctly assign blame to any of them. The increased beaurocracy might take some of the blame from our shoulders. A welcome respite that would be, as our accusers were looking where to fire their blame next.

[Donna O]

I'm sorry but I disagree, no offense to anyone, I think this just adds another layer of bureaucracy and it complicates things. And I also don't feel that there should be a separate 'room' for things such as this.

I'm exhausted just thinking about it Providence. We're stretched thin as it is.

Ah, my heart goes out to you Sierra. If this was implemented, there would need to be a few more active moderators to take the strain ;)

[Seikou-Kishi]

agreed this topic has gone on a few hours and may have gone off course.
no it was not a bit of fun...quite the opposite ,anyone who knows me knows that i will stand by what i believe.
but i am also open to many new pepectives.
as this was my origanal post.
so i say again who is to judge who is right and wrong on a alternative media forum.
who banned Lord Sid.
how many people stood behind that banning.
who represented him.
are we not in a court of ****ing law as paul said.
do you not see yourselfs as judges.

The moderators never ban a person without agreement. I've never seen a person banned without the unanimous agreement of all the moderators present; who actually presses the button is quite irrelevant.


Edit: And speaking of judges, is it not you, Manny, who is setting himself up as a judge expecting that every single one of our actions must conform to your opinion of what is meet and proper?

[Providence]

I'm sorry but I disagree, no offense to anyone, I think this just adds another layer of bureaucracy and it complicates things. And I also don't feel that there should be a separate 'room' for things such as this.
Good! We need both sides of the argument. The separate room is not private, just a designated area of the forum for doing the mediation

I understand, and this topic has come up before, but I still disagree, I don't believe it serves a valuable purpose. And we can laugh about going out into the parking lot to settle a dispute, but is that what we really want?

[thunder24]

if a parking lot would let members have their heated discussions in a different area without getting banned, then yeah i think its a good idea.

peace

[Sierra]

agreed this topic has gone on a few hours and may have gone off course.
no it was not a bit of fun...quite the opposite ,anyone who knows me knows that i will stand by what i believe.
but i am also open to many new pepectives.
as this was my origanal post.
so i say again who is to judge who is right and wrong on a alternative media forum.
who banned Lord Sid.
how many people stood behind that banning.
who represented him.
are we not in a court of ****ing law as paul said.
do you not see yourselfs as judges.

No. I do NOT see myself as a judge. I see myself as a moderator on a moderated forum banning someone for insulting a fellow member. Very simple rule. Very simple response in this particular case. Really obvious and really simple and I STILL don't get your objection.

Manny, you are looking into a mirror right now about judgement and judging and I am beginning to think it is your issue that is at hand, not my actions as moderator.

[ThePythonicCow]

as this was my origanal post.
so i say again who is to judge who is right and wrong on a alternative media forum.
who banned Lord Sid.
how many people stood behind that banning.

As we have said before, we do not review the details of administrative actions in public. Please recognize that.

[Buck]

we all get called names in the real world.
why not the cyber world?
we could have recitifified that with words of wisdom.
not a banning.
like i said people get heated.
unless you want to be like a lemming.
say your piece and take what comes,whether you are right or wrong.
but be sure someone will learn from it .

Chris has offered you a great anecdote to use as a reference point for alignment. Reminds me of a teacher of mine, a great one, who used a very simple exercise to move an entire group up a few notches on their personal journey. He asked for a volunteer to step up from the audience. He outlined a circle in the middle of the room about 15 feet across. He then stepped into the ring, holding out a long white scarf in one hand. He motioned for the volunteer to step into the ring and offered one end of the scarf for them to hold. Our teacher was a physically intimidating person, he was a black belt in Karate, as well as being proficient in many other "applied" martial arts as well.

One brave volunteer stepped in, and took hold of the cloth. It turned into a brilliant match of skill and wits, the student taking up the tension, maneuvering for advantage. But it was no use. In a heartbeat, the student was off balance, a foot dropped outside the line, and the game was over. That inspired more students to give it a try, Student after student got in to the ring, each bringing their own strategy. Each one was rapidly trounced out, some even lasted several minutes. One of the last students to try was very adept at martial arts, and we cheered him on, as he was able to stay in the ring for longer than anyone else by a wide margin. The next person in line was so intimidated by the impressive performance of the previous student, they made a motion to sit down. The teacher insisted that they continue.

A small willowy girl stood at the threshold to the ring. She stepped in, and took hold of the white scarf. We all watched intently, I think for my part because I was anticipating that the teacher was going to dispatch her so masterfully and so quickly I did not want to miss his technique.

You know what happened, don't you? The girl looked down at the scarf, and then at her hands, and then at her teacher holding the other end.

She let go.

It's all about where we choose to invest our magnificent, astonishingly powerful intention. We can use the forum's time and energy to engage in drawing circles of chalk on the floor, measuring the length of the scarf, the strength of the fabric, on and on. Or we can get to it- the stuff this community is possibly capable of, which by the way has nothing whatsoever to do with name calling, boundary keeping and ego identification. And we can do it before they shut off the lights in the auditorium, while we still all have our folding chairs drawn close, and its just this easy to sit and talk with each other.

[Sierra]

if a parking lot would let members have their heated discussions in a different area without getting banned, then yeah i think its a good idea.

peace

What about the chat room?

Sierra

[manny]

if a parking lot would let members have their heated discussions in a different area without getting banned, then yeah i think its a good idea.

peace

What about the chat room?

Sierra
is that before or after they are banned.

[Hervé]

Manny you are wrong!
The fact is it's not an either-or world...it is both.
And you are not focusing on expressing your inner creative energy.

There will always be hierarchy as long as people have children
Parents are boss...

There will always be deception as long as people have children...
Parents make up Santa Claus stories...

There will always be rebellions as long as people have children
Parents are authority.

When the child wants to be free from authority he moves out,
and the parents keep the house and the keys.

Hhhmmmm... interesting perspective and the crux of the matter molding everything else.

A perspective which perpetuates the programming of an entire species by ignoring the Being which incarnated in an externally controlled garrison instead of a family...

I'd rather take Alex Collier's and the Andromedan's perspective on children.

The fact of the matter is that, in the here and now, it is this programming we are dealing with; hence the topic and your answer, ulli, which I understand in that context.

[thunder24]

if a parking lot would let members have their heated discussions in a different area without getting banned, then yeah i think its a good idea.

peace

What about the chat room?

Sierra

i suggested it before in the thread that lord sid got banned in.
manny is the only one that mentioned it, "wanna chat off?" or somethinglike that.
i personally think that is where to do it, and be able to with out getting banned. Have Ilie or whoever in there to moderate and give warnings if it goes to death threats, heck they can even go private chat.
if you can't leave it in there and come out still posting "the nasties" then you get your vacation

Mods in the forum can point the way when they feel the need. thats your warning. if you keep posting in forum in unrulely manner then you get a vacation. If you take it to chat your good.
Just a suggestion
peace

[Sierra]

if a parking lot would let members have their heated discussions in a different area without getting banned, then yeah i think its a good idea.

peace

What about the chat room?

Sierra
is that before or after they are banned.

Never mind. What a silly suggestion that was to think the chat room could be a parking lot where people could go to duke it out. I apolgize for completely misunderstanding you Thunder.

[thunder24]

if a parking lot would let members have their heated discussions in a different area without getting banned, then yeah i think its a good idea.

peace

What about the chat room?

Sierra
is that before or after they are banned.

Never mind. What a silly suggestion that was to think the chat room could be a parking lot where people could go to duke it out. I apolgize for completely misunderstanding you Thunder.

Sierra if we were in there right now i would give you the BOLT ICON. HAHAHAHAHAHA

[Seikou-Kishi]

Sierra if we were in there right now i would give you the BOLT ICON. HAHAHAHAHAHA

Are we to take it that you would flash at Sierra? This is troubling indeed.

[Sierra]

Sierra if we were in there right now i would give you the BOLT ICON. HAHAHAHAHAHA

<looking at Thunder> Do I dare enter the chat room? Whatsa bolt icon? I'm never in the chat room soooo...

[thunder24]

i dare you

[ulli]

Manny you are wrong!
The fact is it's not an either-or world...it is both.
And you are not focusing on expressing your inner creative energy.

There will always be hierarchy as long as people have children
Parents are boss...

There will always be deception as long as people have children...
Parents make up Santa Claus stories...

There will always be rebellions as long as people have children
Parents are authority.

When the child wants to be free from authority he moves out,
and the parents keep the house and the keys.

Hhhmmmm... interesting perspective and the crux of the matter molding everything else.

A perspective which perpetuates the programming of an entire species by ignoring the Being which incarnated in an externally controlled garrison instead of a family...

I'd rather take Alex Collier's and the Andromedan's perspective on children.

The fact of the matter is that, in the here and now, it is this programming we are dealing with; hence the topic and your answer, ulli, which I understand in that context.

I raised my child as an equal...to prove my idealistic point...
big mistake...he feels that I failed him,
as this 3 D world is not like that, and he wanted hierarchy.
But I had a hippie heart, full of ideals.
Now he is raising his own children with an iron fist...(well, not quite...)

[Sierra]

i dare you
Thunder <smack thump> I don't know about that ...

[thunder24]

i dare you
Thunder <smack thump> I don't know about that ...

Its an icon to let you know, I hear you, I agree, I like, Hello, and goodbye
all wrapped in one, its the universal sign. lol:cool:

peace

[Davidallany]

There will always be hierarchy as long as people have children
Parents are boss...

There will always be deception as long as people have children...
Parents make up Santa Claus stories...

There will always be rebellions as long as people have children
Parents are authority.

When the child wants to be free from authority he moves out,
and the parents keep the house and the keys.

Actions depend on the motives behind them, if the reason behind an action is compassion then it's good and commended, if it's for selfish reasons then it's doomed from the first rise of emotion.
Having children doesn't give you the right to do whatever you want with them, you are merely a guardian and protector from all threats foreign and domestic, including you. Don't make up stories to children, teach them true stories and knowledge that will help them if you actually have anything of value, rebellious children are the way they are because of the oppression, narrow mindedness and amounts of BS hurling towards them from parents, schools, media, religion and governments. Rebellion is not a natural thing, love and gratitude is.
LaK6khs8aMw

[ulli]

You mean a Thunderbolt?

[thunder24]

that would be the one ulli, that would be the one

peace

[Sierra]

i dare you
Thunder <smack thump> I don't know about that ...

Its an icon to let you know, I hear you, I agree, I like, Hello, and goodbye
all wrapped in one, its the universal sign. lol:cool:

peace

How cool is that and your name is Thunder ... :rockon:
Sierra :hug:

[thunder24]

any more opinions on the chat room idea for these types of things? Maybe knowing to go to the chat room when your heated could just become an unspoken bylaw of the forum...hence us moderating ourselves?

peace

[Providence]

any more opinions on the chat room idea for these types of things? Maybe knowing to go to the chat room when your heated could just become an unspoken bylaw of the forum...hence us moderating ourselves?

peace

I think that is a good suggestion, just not sure how to implement it? But fair I think...

[thunder24]

oh yeah another thing, just curious, why was borderscout back posting on the third of august when he was issued a "short vacation", which happned on the 29th, but sid got a week?
serious question
is a week 5 days or 7
peace

[ThePythonicCow]

is a week 5 days or 7
Short vacations are not all the same length.

[DoubleHelix]

Well well look what we have here, who could of foreseen this one?

What's that big pile sticking out from under the rug over there?

This was always going to come back and bite you in the ass, there's a problem here and no matter how long you close your eyes it's not going to remedy itself.

Closing a thread prematurely and not giving the members a chance to flesh out a perceived "problem" is like putting a band-aid over a gaping wound and hoping for the best.

Ask yourself a quick question, is everything fine and dandy at Avalon? or is it just unfortunate that these threads pop up and will continue to do so.

[Lord Sidious]

Manny, I am not sure what else we could have done. If a member calls another member a name, how would people feel to see this person get away with it and not another member? Should we start using a double standard for those you feel a preference towards? Do you not think far more people would have been upset at favoritism? Or scared they could be insulted and no one would care?

When this forum has people on staff who can post things and those posts break the rules, there is a problem.



He did say his piece and he went on vacation for a week. He insulted someone and took the consequence. I tell you Manny, it is a slippery slope to ban one member for an insult and not to ban another member for the same infraction. The forum rules are you cannot insult a fellow member. Period. We are to treat each other with respect. How is this not wisdom or at least common sense?

So I HAVE to treat the staff with respect, but they don't have to return that respect?
Would you guys like to put my post back so everyone can see what I got banned for?
I got one week for the first ever infraction of the rules, yet there are posts here on my threads I have asked staff to remove but they wouldn't and they are worse than the one that got me banned.
How does that work?


You have to have some level of trust in people. I happen to agree with the Mods, because I believe that if we allow anyone to say anything they want in the name of free speech, we will lose valuable members. There has to be a line drawn in the sand, and although I don't know all the facts about Lord Sidious' situation, I think we need someone to limit the ceiling on what is suitable for the forum and we can discuss it openly, but in the end we need to put some trust in those that oversee the forum. I think a lot of Lord Sidious, I respect his ability to go straight to the heart of the matter on a thread topic. But, with all due respect, the Mods could not, and should not, publicly air the details, and I respect that.
It is my understanding that Sid was upset because he could not get a response from the Mods, and I understand why he would be questioning their decision, but ultimately the applicants were the ones that needed to pursue this and not Sid.
The poll concerning Bill and Anelia that was taken down this morning is yet another example of something that crosses a boundary, and I think that was a good ethical choice to remove it from the forum. We should not be delving into the same type of destructive hyperbole that is so common in the world today. Bill is not someone that is untouchable, above any of us, he just deserves respect for all he has done and for his contributions to our knowledge and this forum, as an elder if nothing else.
I think this topic is going too far, the Mods are doing what they think is appropriate and if we as members cannot live with their choices, we are free to go somewhere else. Let's try viewing the Mods not as enemies, power hungry and overbearing, but as equal members who collectively try to do the right thing. And they are just as human as we are, and they will make mistakes or make bad judgements at times. But overall I have felt very comfortable with their decisions, the way that they handle themselves, and the members they are dealing with during these times.
Peace!

Let me explain something for you, seeing as I couldn't before.
What got me angry was the way I was dealt with when I asked a question.
I did not ask to see the application that the couple put in, I asked if Paul had told the staff I invited them, as I had asked him to do.
Not only did he not answer me, he removed me from his skype.
That isn't an acceptable way to behave.
Then he continued his attitude here, but I got banned for a week, when others have done worse and got nothing, their posts are still on the board.
As for if we don't like it leave, what rubbish.
This isn't my board, nor is it theirs, it is all of ours.
We all put our effort into this board and I have learnt a lot since I have been here.
A lot about myself and my limitations and a lot about other things too.


if a parking lot would let members have their heated discussions in a different area without getting banned, then yeah i think its a good idea.

peace

There would still have to be limits though.
I don't believe this forum should ever be a free for all, that isn't the spirit of why we are here.
I am not saying that is what you were suggesting either.