Diplomatic Immunity on Forums

[Anno]

I'm sure we're all familiar that for the diplomatic process to work between countries, certain diplomats are given immunity from arrest and prosecution. Serious crimes are obviously not permitted and the diplomat does not have immunity from their own country so they can be brought to account, just not overseas.

As Sovereign Entities, should we consider giving an equivalent to some of those among us in Forum communities? The Forum is essentially a neutral place we can each bring our Sovereign asses and speak as equals. I know I learn a lot more from people I disagree with than from those I agree with so barring unprovoked personal attacks I'm quite happy for people to disagree.

In any forum there are users who contribute far more than anyone else and to lose them would cost the forum more than it would cost the person. Should people like this be granted a form of Diplomatic Immunity?

I can think of a few people I'd grant it to, knowing that the odd flare up is massively outweighed by their overall contribution.

Any thoughts?

[Flash]

You are pushing the envelope Anno. Now two classes of forum's citizenrie? And what if the upper class starts to bully, we tolerate?

To me the point to make the forum tolerant or not has always been in the mods policies and application of them. It has to be very well written and guidelines very clearly explained to have all mods work in similar fashion. Exceptions to policies has to be discussed as well. All this is very difficult to achieve in a virtual long distance, multillingual environment imho. The solution is not in creating classes division.

Humble opinion

[Anno]

You are pushing the envelope Anno. Now two classes of forum's citizenrie? And what if the upper class starts to bully, we tolerate?[...]

I don't mean anything like a caste system. That makes it about the person. I'm talking solely about contribution. If someone's contribution is so vast that noone else on the forum can come near to equalling it, shouldn't they deserve a bit more... ...flexibility?

I'm mainly thinking of the posters I see adding value all the time and would really miss. Take Fred S for example, let's say he went off on a mad one for some reason and started insulting everyone, new people might think 'What a tit' but people who have been around here longer would remember all the contributions he makes and be more tolerant towards him should he have some kind of outburst. We all have those, so shouldn't our prior conduct count for more when it exceeds 'average'?

Remembering we can always choose to ignore people we don't like.

[Tony]

I'll have to admit, I'd like to see more tolerance on the forum. Plus less wild speculation, it just sends people off in trivial directions. There is much to discuss in more detail, but people are taking a discussion too personally.

Should I now appologise for what I am saying, in case it offends anyone. I am scaling posts down because of this.

Yours in love and light and the usual stuff,
Tony

[Flash]

The point I was making is that yes, tolerance would be appreciated, however, my familiy does not define tolerance as my neighbours do, imagine if in a multicultural environment. Rules and applications have to be written and leeways welll explained to have coherence.

Not obvious, although much desirable.

[Ivanhoe]

Just my two cents but I think there should be no delineation between "more" or "less" in regards of informational input. We should all be kept to the same standards, period.
Yes we all have our moments of madness but I don't think just because one might be a prolific and thought provoking respondent that you should be given preferance above another member,.... but what the heck do I know.... :rolleyes:

Y'all have a great day, gotta go work a double today.
Love ya

[Anno]

[...]
Should I now appologise for what I am saying, in case it offends anyone. I am scaling posts down because of this.
[...]

It worries me that you're censoring your self. That can't be healthy. Say what you want Tony and if people don't like it then just say what the Fear Porn people say to me, "Noone forces you to read it."

We seem to want freedom but we aren't willing to take the responsibility that comes with it. We'll take the freedom but only if there's a higher force out there ready to step in and save us from ourselves.


The point I was making is that yes, tolerance would be appreciated, however, my familiy does not define tolerance as my neighbours do, imagine if in a multicultural environment. Rules and applications have to be written and leeways welll explained to have coherence.

Not obvious, although much desirable.

You know multiculturalism is a lie, right? Multiculturalism would be like opening up a Skeptic sub-forum and inviting them over here to talk to us. A minority would be able to do so respectfully and appreciate what we could each learn from the other's perspective but most will resort to using differences to attack and cause tension.

We may well be one on the spiritual level but we're not living on the spiritual level. We're fragments of spirits trapped inside animals that have been messed with by who knows what for who knows how many years. I feel that by demonising differences or the discussion of them, prevents us from learning from them. Instead what you get is a fake mask in public of Politically Correct and behind closed doors the repressed truth of difference comes out as hate. Causing what we call Prejudice.

It's a bit of a side topic lol, but bringing it back, there are people here who post every now and then and whilst they add value, if they vanished you'd not notice. There are others that contribute vast amounts of not just time, but effort and thought. I feel that in a sense they should be viewed as Elders of our community and given that extra bit of respect and leeway.


Just my two cents but I think there should be no delineation between "more" or "less" in regards of informational input. We should all be kept to the same standards, period.[...]

It's a nice ideal Ivanhoe (good name btw) but in reality, where do ideals get us? Is a Doctor not more important than a Bus Driver? Yes they both add to society in awesome ways but I'd rather live in a town with no Bus Drivers than one with no Doctors. Like it or not, in all communities there are people more important than us. The problem is this, it is their Role that is more important not them as a Person. A retired Doctor is less important than a Bus Driver. It's only when you make it about the individual that our egos start to resist and demand equality.

If you take certain roles out of a community, that community suffers. That is why I feel those within those roles should have more leeway and remember, they have to earn it by taking on that role.

[Tony]

Hello Anno,

We haven't spoken before.
In general, what we say in ordinary banter does not matter, as long as we are polite-ish. ..and fun loving!

But I am gradually feeling like the indigenous peoples of this world - that maybe being in solitude is better, until people know how to love.
I have no wish to argue or cause upset.
I take a vow every morning of non-aggression.
I am starting to feel like those non-interfering aliens.

On this forum, the word 'love' is being used to cover up aggression, so discussion is not possible.
This is how I feel at this moment.

Tony

[ulli]

Anno
I understand where you are coming from...
And I can guess whose absence you are grieving, and I sympathize.

But this suggestion of yours sounds to me too much like instituting a Wal-Mart style pecking order.
Where would one draw the line, between who is and who is not immune?
Use a point system like you presented, for people to receive or lose Karma points?

I like to keep regulations simple...things find their own way of balancing out in the end.

[Ilie Pandia]

Please read this post, is relevant to this discussion:

http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?27187-The-Project-Avalon-Community-Forum

[DeDukshyn]

Inequality? segregation? special rights? Nope I think we need to get away from those things. no one is better than anyone else and everyone can make mistakes - structuring supporting beliefs around the opposite of these truths through a form of special treatment is definitely very wrong, in my opinion. Especially for here - we already have mods and admins.

[TWINCANS]

[...]
Should I now appologise for what I am saying, in case it offends anyone. I am scaling posts down because of this.
[...]

It worries me that you're censoring your self. That can't be healthy. Say what you want Tony and if people don't like it then just say what the Fear Porn people say to me, "Noone forces you to read it."

We seem to want freedom but we aren't willing to take the responsibility that comes with it. We'll take the freedom but only if there's a higher force out there ready to step in and save us from ourselves.


The point I was making is that yes, tolerance would be appreciated, however, my familiy does not define tolerance as my neighbours do, imagine if in a multicultural environment. Rules and applications have to be written and leeways welll explained to have coherence.

Not obvious, although much desirable.

You know multiculturalism is a lie, right? Multiculturalism would be like opening up a Skeptic sub-forum and inviting them over here to talk to us. A minority would be able to do so respectfully and appreciate what we could each learn from the other's perspective but most will resort to using differences to attack and cause tension.

We may well be one on the spiritual level but we're not living on the spiritual level. We're fragments of spirits trapped inside animals that have been messed with by who knows what for who knows how many years. I feel that by demonising differences or the discussion of them, prevents us from learning from them. Instead what you get is a fake mask in public of Politically Correct and behind closed doors the repressed truth of difference comes out as hate. Causing what we call Prejudice.

It's a bit of a side topic lol, but bringing it back, there are people here who post every now and then and whilst they add value, if they vanished you'd not notice. There are others that contribute vast amounts of not just time, but effort and thought. I feel that in a sense they should be viewed as Elders of our community and given that extra bit of respect and leeway.


Just my two cents but I think there should be no delineation between "more" or "less" in regards of informational input. We should all be kept to the same standards, period.[...]

It's a nice ideal Ivanhoe (good name btw) but in reality, where do ideals get us? Is a Doctor not more important than a Bus Driver? Yes they both add to society in awesome ways but I'd rather live in a town with no Bus Drivers than one with no Doctors. Like it or not, in all communities there are people more important than us. The problem is this, it is their Role that is more important not them as a Person. A retired Doctor is less important than a Bus Driver. It's only when you make it about the individual that our egos start to resist and demand equality.

If you take certain roles out of a community, that community suffers. That is why I feel those within those roles should have more leeway and remember, they have to earn it by taking on that role.

Love that 'spirits in messed-with animals bodies' line! Beautiful.

I also feel comfortable with the idea that there might be unspoken elders who have earned respect. But maybe that's just my shamanic training, the importance of the center to the circle.

Sometimes people just rub each other the wrong way. No matter how much they try, or how many rules get written, they'll just go at each other sooner or later. Maybe those people could just not go head-to-head but let others carry on the dialogue? That's just natural I think.

[ThePythonicCow]

Well, I'm sure to some extend such privilege occurs naturally, and the problem may be that it occurs too much, not too little.

We could probably find any of several high post count members, myself included and run the following experiment. Pick out the ten most obnoxious, least worthy, sentences that major poster has ever posted, and and have some new member (unbeknownst to the mod team) make those ten sentences the substance of his first ten posts. The new member might not last here long enough to complete the experiment.

We are inevitably aware of a member's overall contribution and history when we take "moderator actions." The more common complaint, quite possibly a good one, is that we are too aware, not too little aware ;).

[Mad Hatter]

We already seem to have diplomatic immunity up and running when it comes to some of the comments emanating recently from certain quarters of the moderating team. By this I mean I have observed lately several instances where to my mind comments aimed at members have ranged from being sarcastic through to outright snide in content.

Those who have had the misfortune of plowing through some of my posts will know they range from the sublime to the rediculous and I'm sure it would be easy enough to find evidence of me communicating in said manner, maybe my bad, but I'm am merely a member and don't make such comment with the implied authority of a Mod/Admin hat.

Besides if I think an 'idea' is complete bollocks I will always say so, if the reader chooses not to distinguish between an attack on the idea versus an attack on themselves then that would appear to be a flaw in their personality rather than a reflection of my intent and therefore something completely beyond my control. It is however at that juncture I hope they have the intelligence, emotional or otherwise, to walk away from the conversation since further participation may only lead to more damage of their current paradigm regarding the subject matter at hand. ie don't like it, leave it!!

It seems to me that with the implied authority that comes with the honour of being a member of the Mod/Admin team it is imperative that members are able to distinguish the difference between what is being said by way of guidance for members actions and the good of the community as a whole and as such should always be maintained at a standard that remains above reproach, versus the personal opinion of the Mod/Admin in question.

Having pointed out a flaw in the system it behooves me to put forward a potential solution... therefore I suggest that if at all possible the staff have two logons available to them. One for moderating and one for getting into the thick of it with the rest of us, equally subject of course to the same rules of moderation!!

If this is not possible Plan B would be that the Mod/Admin team refrain from any personal involvement whilst on the job but since I truly value some of those opinions the loss of such would actually be detrimental so plan A is definitely the preferred option.

What say you team?

[1159]

A system for forum poster reputation is already available, its called KARMA SYSTEM see a bit about this here http://www.policespecials.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=62010
Yes, it's self regulating, bottom up, but still open to abuse as many systems are.

[Ilie Pandia]

@Mad Hatter: Double logon would not work for me. Every time I post I make sure I follow the rules and I am polite. And I've done so from before joining the moderation team.

[ThePythonicCow]

Every time I post I make sure I follow the rules and I am polite.
And if Ilie, or I, or another moderator, fails to do this and posts something you think should not have been posted ... Report (the http://projectavalon.net/forum4/images/buttons/report-40b.png triangle) us ;).

I can't guarantee we will receive the Report with perfect lack of bias, but we will do our reasonable best to take note and learn.

[Sierra]

Anno,

I can't quite believe what I am hearing you say. A NWO tiering system? Based on quantity of posts? And the benefit would be? The quantity posters could insult freely? And the benefit of that would be? <scratching my head here ...>

Sheesh. I may be lazy but seeing an insult should not require me to process whether or not this member is allowed to insult others. I mean, think ahead here a little bit. What would be the consequences of such a system? Would not after awhile, the quiet ones leave? Would not the forum once again be dominated by those who want an un-moderated forum? Have we not already seen the results and are still dealing with the results? Why would anyone want to listen to JUST the quantity posters and no one else?

While you may not see the benefit of the more quiet and shy posters, I do. I like hearing from new people. I like being surprised by wisdom. I am doing my moderator best to encourage the gentles to post by making this forum moderated as clearly and fairly as possible though I fail obviously, my failure does not mean I am not on the right path. Screw my failures, I'm sticking to what is spiritually the better for all.

And no. And a doctor will never be allowed to insult a bus driver on this forum just because he is a doctor. Or a quantity poster. A doctor is not better than a bus driver. Never. Not in my paradigm. Not on my timeline.

[Carmody]

You are pushing the envelope Anno. Now two classes of forum's citizenrie? And what if the upper class starts to bully, we tolerate?[...]

I don't mean anything like a caste system. That makes it about the person. I'm talking solely about contribution. If someone's contribution is so vast that noone else on the forum can come near to equalling it, shouldn't they deserve a bit more... ...flexibility?

I'm mainly thinking of the posters I see adding value all the time and would really miss. Take Fred S for example, let's say he went off on a mad one for some reason and started insulting everyone, new people might think 'What a tit' but people who have been around here longer would remember all the contributions he makes and be more tolerant towards him should he have some kind of outburst. We all have those, so shouldn't our prior conduct count for more when it exceeds 'average'?

Remembering we can always choose to ignore people we don't like.

You can't think, feel, exist, or be in the realm of thinking of differences.

Separation: I me, you, us, them, all meaningless -in the grand sense.

That is 'in ego' and defeats the very purpose.

A bit difficult to translate what I mean, in this 'space', and I mean 'this reality'. Describing it is a bit difficult, as this realm is built on and in the idea of and actual dimensional aspects of quantization, and separation. Quantized differentials, at the base level, thus time, space, matter, flow, complex equations and results, the whole thing, expressed as quantum derived differentials between those given particles/waves.

This does not mean it is a good thing or a bad thing, it simply is.

However, the warning is to not attempt to herd it, to reach for the safety of the self through the desired reflection of egoically derived emotions, the body's need to categorize, separate, define, manage, herd, label, etc.

Let it go.

walk away from it.

The reason you are here... and broken up into these little chunks, of a globally scaling nature (quantum defines even the grandiose universals in this space)...the very reason is to learn to define the self in some fashion or another so that one can survive in a universe that has no set boundaries. The universe that you come from.

Problem: Dissolution fades you into the backdrop; separation makes you an entity. You must balance the two, individually and as a group.

Since that place that we come from does not have set boundaries in some ways, then you have to learn how to walk and talk a method of defined boundaries ~with~ universal connectedness.

This (the you reading these words) is the place you come to, in order to learn how to screw up, so in the end, you cease screwing up.

Hopefully you begin to understand that defining separated aspects as strongly as possible, in a willful way, is exactly opposite to the point of it all. However, that is a lesson we must all learn and attempt to be mindful about.

It is the avatar, the body, the ego that wants separation and it is what you were given when you were born. Like learning to ride a bike, or learning to tie your shoes, it is just another level of learning, regarding the taming of the over-arching aspects of seeing the world through ego function.

You are given negativity (and it is not even really that, it is merely a stage of growth) to overcome, not to embrace.

[Karma Ninja]

Since there have been countless threads regarding the banning or forced vacations for members it is obviously an issue to some people. I would venture a guess that 99% of the people who are upset are supporters, friends or followers of the banned members. While this is a natural reaction to seeing a friend or favorite poster banned. it is also a cry from our ego. We grow used to hearing from our favorites and friends so we feel a loss and miss them when they are gone. These threads are the equivalent of a dog howling when their owner is gone.

I am going to assume that this thread is regarding Lord Sid and offer this... Rob (Lord Sid) crossed a line he was fully aware existed. He has defended the mods for making similar decisions with previously banned members. He is a big boy and understands what happened. While he might still be upset it is too easy for him to understand why this happened. He called a mod a 'Dick' and got pretty personal when really, his ego was bruised because people he suggested to become members were turned down. His desire for special treatement is rooted in the same spectrum from which the police see themselves as above the law. Sid feels like he is a special contributor (I would agree with that assessment) but he is not above being reprimanded for name calling and generally unacceptable behaviour.

Lets move on and hope Sid comes back in a few days...

[RMorgan]

I don´t think an immunity system is necessary. Just act here as you´re talking to your friends, on a meeting. Be polite and respectful and you´ll have an awesome meeting. Do the opposite , one time, and your friends will start do ignore you. Do it again, and they wont call you to the next meetings.

[NeverMind]

I've never really thought about it in these terms, but upon consideration I believe this is exactly what I've been doing, and hope to continue doing, whenever and wherever I participate in any forum. :-)

[strevane]

As a probationary member, I can say that further segregation would not be welcomed. :rolleyes:

[onawah]

I have been on this forum longer than most, since the beginning of Avalon (initially just as a silent reader, and later as a posting member) and so have seen it go through many changes.

What has always drawn me back to Avalon is, first, the great information that I've found here, presented in an easily accessible format.

The dialogue amongst members is sometimes instructive, sometimes not, but the fact that the guidelines keep it from being offensive and pointless for the most part is the second reason I keep coming back.

I am always amazed when I go to Youtube and other forums and see the obscenities, name calling and ignorance of the most abhorrent kind--people just spewing and dumping on each other for no apparent reason. It's beyond my understanding what reward there is in that for anyone.

What I have noticed lately on Avalon is, in comparison to other eras, less useful and enlightening information, and an overabundance of opinions and ego-driven dialogue.

This is just my opinion, but as I've indicated, I have been on this forum for quite a few years, so I think my perspective is valid.

There have been times when there has been so much amazing information on Avalon that there wasn't time enough to read it all, even if one spent the whole day here.

Dialogue was based much more on analyzing the data, contributing to it, comparing it to other sources of information, etc.

It wasn't about opinions and personalities and egos and deciding whose opinions were valid and who was highest on the totem pole, it was about the information.

That was far more constructive and interesting, in my opinion.

But like the weather, I'm sure it will change and so in the meantime, I will continue to be one of the quieter members, and be selective in what I read and engage in, and be very grateful to the Mods for keeping Avalon a forum that is worth revisiting.

[DeDukshyn]

As a probationary member, I can say that further segregation would not be welcomed. :rolleyes:

Exactly ..
We already got rid of the "levels" in Alalon - everyone seemed to support this move. Besides, if Avalon granted me special status and special rights, I'd decline then in an instant anyway; I wouldn't want the label of "getting away with things" because all that does is reduce me (allows me to be lesser), then excuses that reduction via special treatment - yuck! ;) This is really just what "special treatment" is in my opinion.

[Anno]

The multi-quoting thing is against me so please forgive my unorthodox approach:

--

pie'n'eal
But I am gradually feeling like the indigenous peoples of this world - that maybe being in solitude is better, until people know how to love.

How are they to learn if you remove your experience and example? Perhaps you could write a book and leave a priest class to interpret what you meant... ...oh no, that doesn't work does it.

--

Ilie
Please read this post

I did, and agree that all you said is true and from the heart.

--

Ulli
sounds to me too much like instituting a Wal-Mart style pecking order.

DeDukshyn
Inequality? segregation? special rights?


Oi you two, stop assuming bad things will happen. =P Unless you've seen them in the stars Ulli. That, I will take note of. If such a system was implemented I'd assume there would be some kind of group consensus. Nominate someone, people can vote,if they ever go over 50% they get it, but also allow people to remove their vote so if it goes below 50% they lose it. At present I'm just thinking about it as a concept.

It all stems from seeing online communities in the same way we view physical communities and applying concepts from one to the other to see what happens. As Twincans is about to say, it's based on the idea of Elders in the community. Noone can just march in and demand to be one. They have to earn it. Otherwise we'd tell them to stfu. =]

--

TWINCANS
I also feel comfortable with the idea that there might be unspoken elders who have earned respect. But maybe that's just my shamanic training, the importance of the center to the circle.

You see the circle, the people who are worried about a negative result are seeing a triangle. And they say Fear Porn doesn't have any effect. You see the same all over. Most people see the Triangle or Pyramid first before they even consider a Circle or Sphere approach is even possible. Why? Because they're being programmed to see it everywhere. I wonder why that is?
--

Paul
We could probably find any of several high post count members, myself included and run the following experiment. Pick out the ten most obnoxious, least worthy, sentences that major poster has ever posted, and and have some new member (unbeknownst to the mod team) make those ten sentences the substance of his first ten posts. The new member might not last here long enough to complete the experiment.

You should so do that. Although if you refer to my equation, high post counts can't be used to measure positive/negative influence, only influence itself. As an experiment though I'd really like to see the results as I think they could teach us all a thing or twelve. I give permission for you to use my posts if you like. Aslong as the results are published publicly on the forum.

--

Mad Hatter
Having pointed out a flaw in the system it behooves me to put forward a potential solution... therefore I suggest that if at all possible the staff have two logons available to them.

Oh I love the word behooves. And chargrin. You don't see them often enough these days. A funny synchronicity is that my equation detected exactly the problem you are describing and I came to the same solution.

When are they being moderators and when are they being 'one of us'? The equation can't tell the difference. It reminds me of when you're at a party and someone says they're a Police or a Teacher and it all goes quiet and people act kinda strange but don't know why. Which is why most Police and Teachers lie about their jobs to strangers.

I think it's a global problem and not just restricted to forums.

--

Sierra
I can't quite believe what I am hearing you say. A NWO tiering system?

I glad you can't believe it because I didn't say it. Nor did I type it. I didn't read the rest of your post as I assumed it would be based on this assumption. See my response to Ulli and DeDukshyn for clarification.

--

Carmody
It is the avatar, the body, the ego that wants separation and it is what you were given when your were born.

The question is, do we create separation by our ego wanting it, or does our ego want it because it already exists? Does either change the fact that it does exist?

The way I see it, we can either face our fears and turn our weaknesses in to our strengths and move forward or sit in a field wishing them away with happy thoughts while 'the other side' get on with their job. Whilst I believe an equal balance of both approaches is vital to success, at this stage I'd say we're heavy in one and lacking in the other.

I think our main problem is that our technological advancement is way ahead of our spiritual advancement so everything is upside down and back to front.

--

Karma Ninja
I am going to assume that this thread is regarding Lord Sid and offer this... Rob (Lord Sid) crossed a line he was fully aware existed.

This is just a continuation of my AI / Alternative Forums discussion. I have no idea what happened to Sid because I wasn't here but if he managed to get himself banned he must of done something pretty special. I've seen a lot be said on here that wouldn't be tolerated elsewhere. Alas, I shall never know what happened. (unless someone pm's me to tell me). He would be a candidate for the kind of thing I'm talking about though. Assuming he got the vote and didn't lose it.

--

onawah
I am always amazed when I go to Youtube and other forums and see the obscenities, name calling and ignorance of the most abhorrent kind--people just spewing and dumping on each other for no apparent reason.

I like that I hardly ever see the word Sheeple being used here. Totaly agree with what you said.

[Snoweagle]

No there shouldn't be considered diplomatic immunity for any of us who participate within this forum or any other either. It's an absurd preposition. It defeats our purpose in seeking information for consideration and research, to enable us to break the manacles of the poor education systems forced on us throughout our lives. We all see the lie and we need debate, argument and enlightenment to breach those veils.

The fact that there are those that elevate themselves surreptitiously through "good deeds" does not qualify them immunity to the basic traits of common decency when counter arguments are made. Many topics discussed here are contentious and beyond the scope of the understanding of most, yet that is why we are all here, to assist one another. To deny an opinion is wrong, though any opinion must be considered for value as both sides in debate "have value" to any topic. Yet the scope of teaching any "understanding" for these issues, which are new to some, is a new science for us, we are collectively "writing the book" by participation here and other alternative media sites. And this one rates highly for many of us.

Multiple posters frustrate me no end as it indicates "muddied water". The poster is clearly concerned and the spread betting of focus for the readers presents a confusing arena in which to conduct constructive discussion. (Thankfully, a wonderful amount of goodies remain). The segregation by category also compartmentalises the topic and readers into cliches or groupies which underlines this threads original tenet. No individual has any greater right over another. (By the way, I do enjoy the multiple posts, frustrating as they damn well are; though it encourages me that others are looking also, there's just to many topics to comment on and I don't type so fast as I used to).

Onawah: Thank you so much for your comment as nothing could ground this debate more than the insight that it brought.

Disagreeing with others is fine, argue, deliberate, make your opinion known; though that's all each of us have in debate. To become hostile to others who do not believe you and carry their counter argument with reference, is a time for self consideration and research. Personal insults are a no no. Confined to the trash or ban, am happy with either. To consider previous value as a balance on judgement to offensive behaviour is unacceptable, here or in real life. After all, isn't that our purpose here in the first place.

However, bans are not life imprisonment. We all make mistakes. Tempers do fray within every line of contest. Consideration of reinstatement must also share an equal amount of "value" to our community or we too grind slowly into the abyss; just as the our lives have wasted in futile endeavour bringing us here for enlightenment. Though that decision must be shielded from the community and managed by the moderation team and offender(s) only.

[Heyoka_11]

I can't quite believe what I am hearing you say. A NWO tiering system? Based on quantity of posts? And the benefit would be? The quantity posters could insult freely? And the benefit of that would be?

Of no benefit whatsoever!

Just as laws exist for the common good at a societal level, so too do codes of conduct on this forum.

If we heard a traffic cop, who after pulling someone over for speeding, said "Sorry sir, I did not realise it was you. Please be on your way", simply because they held a high profile position, or in some manner made a significant contribution to society, we would shout corruption, and we would be right in doing so.

Any high volume poster on this forum has if anything, an even greater responsibility to set a standard for others to follow, especially those who are new here, such as I am.

Codes of conduct are here for the benefit of all, and must be applied equally to all members; no exceptions. It does not matter what you have to say, or how at odds your opinion may be to anothers, there is a right way and a wrong way of expressing yourself. I know it is damn hard on occasion to say your peace in a polite manner when your blood is boiling, but an inability to control one's emotions is no justification for impolite behaviour. I am gladly hanging myself here, as I am not immune to outburst.

I sincerely appreciate Anno's suggestion, as it sparks healthy debate. I must however reject it, as it is premised on inverted logic. I stress, in my opinion!

[Heyoka_11]

But I am gradually feeling like the indigenous peoples of this world - that maybe being in solitude is better, until people know how to love.

Hello Tony,

That is a joyous realisation, for it is only within ourselves that we can find peace; for a while longer at least. Solitude is a wonderful state of being, and does not mean being alone! It means being at peace with oneself, as your own best friend.

I think you already know this.

Best Wishes,

Tony.

[Anno]

[...]It's an absurd preposition. It defeats our purpose in seeking information for consideration and research, to enable us to break the manacles of the poor education systems forced on us throughout our lives. We all see the lie and we need debate, argument and enlightenment to breach those veils.[...]

Please explain to me how respected posters being made immune from censure stops any of the above happening?



I can't quite believe what I am hearing you say. A NWO tiering system? Based on quantity of posts? And the benefit would be? The quantity posters could insult freely? And the benefit of that would be?

Of no benefit whatsoever!
[...]

Do you know what this reminds me of, Heyoka? NLP. I didn't say anything about post counts. Nor of hierarchies. Nor of control. All of those ideas were introduced by others and used (intentionally or not) as a trigger for pre-programed fear responses as witnessed by the self serving rhetoric in use and the slow march away from the actual topic.

A position of Elder chosen from and by the community who, being free from censure could act freely as a protection against over-zealous or momentarily befuddled Moderators. Should they abuse it then the community, and only the community, could take it away from them.
I'm not speaking specifically of this or any other forum. I'm only interested in exploring the idea as a concept.

Stick to the topic please. If anyone wants to discuss what would happen if evil beings from wherever took it over then fine, go start your own threads. =]

[ThePythonicCow]

I'm not speaking specifically of this or any other forum. I'm only interested in exploring the idea as a concept.
You "can think of a few people I'd grant it to". You speak specifically of at least one member here, Fred S. You speak of what "we" do or do not have here.

But noo-o-o ... you're not speaking specifically of this or any other forum.

I don't believe you, sir.

Clearly you were thinking of at least this forum, and clearly you knew that others would react to your suggestion as it applied to this forum

[Anno]

I'm not speaking specifically of this or any other forum. I'm only interested in exploring the idea as a concept.
You "can think of a few people I'd grant it to". You speak specifically of at least one member here, Fred S. You speak of what "we" do or do not have here.

But noo-o-o ... you're not speaking specifically of this or any other forum.

I don't believe you, sir.

Clearly you were thinking of at least this forum, and clearly you knew that others would react to your suggestion as it applied to this forum

That isn't true. On page one of this thread I used Fred as an example of the kind of person who could go off on one and noone would say anything. On page two Sid was brought up and I said he would be someone I'd consider as suitable. That however is all irrelevant and merely a game of point scoring which I have no interest in playing.

This forum and users on it are the only frame of reference that can be used to discuss it so I find it odd that you'd take an adverse reaction to people doing that. Are you saying that it is wrong to discuss a concept relating to forums on a forum and using that forum as a frame of reference? That is illogical and you aren't an illogical person so clearly there's something else going on that I am not privy to.

If you or anyone else would like to accuse me of doing something then please say it plain and simple so we can all discuss it openly as a group and review any evidence. I have nothing to hide. I extend that to anyone at all on this forum. Make your self known and say your piece. The dramatics and paltry attempts and strawman spinning will not work with me.

Please speak your mind or stfu so the rest of us can get on with discussing a topic without the thought police telling us what is and is not acceptable. I would expect no less from anyone that invokes the name Avalon, here or anywhere else.

[ktlight]

I'll have to admit, I'd like to see more tolerance on the forum. Plus less wild speculation, it just sends people off in trivial directions. There is much to discuss in more detail, but people are taking a discussion too personally.

Should I now appologise for what I am saying, in case it offends anyone. I am scaling posts down because of this.

Yours in love and light and the usual stuff,
Tony

Pie'n'eal, please, do not allow others to limit your activities or your thoughts. Continue on, otherwise you are submitting to negativity.

[ThePythonicCow]

Please speak your mind or stfu so the rest of us can get on with discussing a topic without the thought police telling us what is and is not acceptable.
You made a claim that I quoted, and to which I provided evidence to the contrary. I did not believe your claim.

I did not make any statements as to what is and is not acceptable to discuss in that reply.

You did - just now - rudely. That is not acceptable.

[Anno]

Please speak your mind or stfu so the rest of us can get on with discussing a topic without the thought police telling us what is and is not acceptable.
You made a claim that I quoted, and to which I provided evidence to the contrary. I did not believe your claim.

I did not make any statements as to what is and is not acceptable to discuss in that reply.

You did - just now - rudely. That is not acceptable.

I'm not playing I said you said they said. It's quite clear that you and Sierra are hostile to this thread and instead of saying what your problem is so it can be disccused, Sierra is twisting what I said to make me appear to be the NWO enemy and you are nitpicking parts from multiple posts to evidence something you say you're not saying. Wtf?

Just say what's on your mind please Paul, because right now the Mods are the ones derailing this thread and that's just too ironic for me on a Sunday night.

[Snoweagle]

Anno: "Please explain to me how respected posters being made immune from censure stops any of the above happening?"
Well first, you selected a sentence from my post and misquoted or leveraged debate to support your own argument. However, you do ask a significantly pertinent question as a result. In fact, you conjure a fallacy of word play to endorse your argument.
Who determines a poster as respected? What governs a post as been considered respectfully presented? Why consider any poster as being more respected than others anyway, are all our comments not valid and worthy of some value of respect?

Should Project Avalon even consider providing immunity to forum abuse by individuals, will be the death knell for the forum. People will leave and not return. The only ones that remain will be the groupies who will serve the "master" who has immunity. It will be analogous to creating a "priesthood", an online digital monastery where alternative thoughts will not be tolerated. A birth of dictatorship.

Anyways, define "respect". it comes as a noun and a transitive verb. Whilst I perceive your implied use as "deferential esteem", I challenge that by, what comparative judgement affords such praise should "respect" be tallied with "offense". There is little to conjoin them. In fact they are opposites and offense cancels respect totally. It is also a fact in law, common law too.

You do have a point on an individuals status and valued inputs to this forum, though that in no way absolves anyone of reprimand should they not treat others with the same respect afforded them. Whilst a mute point, it hardly endorses immunity but might be considered by the moderators during reinstatement. Though I did touch on that in my earlier remarks.

[ThePythonicCow]

We have given Anno one day (*) off, to give him time to read what he has posted. Apparently he has not noticed how it would look to others.

(*) Nevermind that his Title says a week - that's a boilerplate line I am unsure how to change.

[Karma Ninja]

Karma Ninja[/B]
I am going to assume that this thread is regarding Lord Sid and offer this... Rob (Lord Sid) crossed a line he was fully aware existed.

This is just a continuation of my AI / Alternative Forums discussion. I have no idea what happened to Sid because I wasn't here but if he managed to get himself banned he must of done something pretty special. I've seen a lot be said on here that wouldn't be tolerated elsewhere. Alas, I shall never know what happened. (unless someone pm's me to tell me). He would be a candidate for the kind of thing I'm talking about though. Assuming he got the vote and didn't lose it.


I may have taken the intent of the thread out of context and if that is so I apologize. However the comments applied regarding Rob apply to anyone who may have taken similar liberties, seen the Mod and might benefit from said immunity. At the same time, since the OG clarified on the intent than I should clarify on mine. I think it was a timing issue on my side...

Peace

[thunder24]

Paul was this your way of telling Anno what was on your mind like he asked, if so did you warn Anno?

did this happen cause he accused mods of derailing thread?

peace

sorry Anno, hope you will stick around

[ThePythonicCow]

I suggest thunder24 that you read some of the posts on this thread of the last three hours a little more closely. I have left all in public view, so that other members (and Anno, on his day off) can review it as they wish.

[ulli]

I would like to repeat what I stated earlier, and which Anno ignored.

Where would one draw the line, between who is and who is not immune?

I thought it was a valid question.

[Orph]

It's a nice ideal Ivanhoe (good name btw) but in reality, where do ideals get us? Is a Doctor not more important than a Bus Driver? Yes they both add to society in awesome ways but I'd rather live in a town with no Bus Drivers than one with no Doctors. Like it or not, in all communities there are people more important than us. The problem is this, it is their Role that is more important not them as a Person. A retired Doctor is less important than a Bus Driver. It's only when you make it about the individual that our egos start to resist and demand equality.

First off, I totally disagree with the concept that some people or things are more important than others. IMO, that's part of the reason things are so messed up. All are equal. You say that it isn't the 'person' who's important, but the role they play that is either more, or less important than the role somebody else plays. (I disagree with that too btw). But we have several thousand of years experience that says that 'the role' that a person plays eventually goes to their head, and it does in fact become 'personal' power. Greed, corruption, and other crap is sure to follow. Life isn't perfect, and neither is this board. But my opinion is that everybody has to be equal, and everybody has to play by the same set of rules. For some people to get special treatment, or worse, diplomatic immunity, would not be a very good thing. It leads to the same old "I'm better than you" type of mentality. (Just my opinion).

[Curt]

I think this horse has been fully and successfully beaten...most agree that all should be held to the same standard and that users and mods alike have an obligation to be fair and respectful. In my brief time here this seems to be the case 99 per cent of the time anyway. I think everyone on this forum deserves lots of credit for this. Imagine any other place, virtual or real-world, where you could congregate and openly discuss, for example, false flag blue beam style alien attacks on our planet. I've observed people on this forum discussing such things with a great deal of respect for one another--even while holding wildly different views... By contrast, I've seen people elsewhere, out in the world at large, ready to throw punches over the outcome of a baseball game. The level of respect shown by and to members of this forum is of a pretty high caliber. There's always going to be the odd time one of us will lose our cool and be vacationed. It's a small price to pay.

[ViralSpiral]

By deliberately nailing one's colours to the mast and using stark language, you challenge people. Anyone's views posted on a forum should be as readily subjected to scrutiny and non-sacrosanct as our public view on anything. An open-minded discussion (with a certain bias) was never going to convert hard-line moderators. And I don't mean this negatively either. It's dem rules! And frankly, I am glad they are in place. I learn, I laugh and I loved what Onawah had to say. A LOT!

Anno, I hope you see the wisdom of not causing offense and being moderate/showing humility with areas that appear grey - not for the sake of worrying about the sensitivity of or to others, but simply because it is fruitless.


Now hurry back!



http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/71/PaleBlueDot.jpg/256px-PaleBlueDot.jpg

[Fred Steeves]

Well, I'm sure to some extend such privilege occurs naturally, and the problem may be that it occurs too much, not too little.



I think Paul has a good point here. These "things" are part of human nature, but it is also a very delicate balance. These are called unspoken rules, and to work properly it depends upon ALL parties concerned knowing where "the line" is, and not crossing it.

I spent many years working on crews framing custom homes, and the guy who I rode to work with everyday, who was also the boss, was/is also one of my best friends. We never talked about it, as it was "unspoken", but it was understood that it would not be appropriate to the other guys, or for us at work, to have that relationship come into play at the jobsite. For my part I always was extra attentive to work hard, and not put "the boss" in any uncomfortable situation in front of the guys for showing favortism, although it was there subtly.

Now there were a couple of notable times,(boy were there!!!) where the testocerone got juiced up, the f-bombs went flying, and I was fired/quit. It wouldn't be long though before we'd find ourselves poppin a few cold ones, sparkin up a doob, and just like that there would be "hey, you ready to go back to work"?

I was always glad we didn't hold any grudges over the years, even though we both could be dickheads from time to time.

Cheers,
Fred

[Carmody]

This forum is about discourse yes.

But, fundamentally, it is about the act of one's participation into the discourse marked by wordings and styles that are not provocative.

Not provocative, as the discourse cannot survive and be easily absorbed by all, unless it is devoid of statements and shaping involving overt amounts of emotional coloring. meaning, keep cool and connect with people without any overt levels of emotion.


otherwise it is a recipe for eventual degeneration and de-evolution of the forum. Which is exactly what some are stating, is it not?

It really is that simple.

Respect it. Otherwise this ends up braking the forum down, over time, as the more gentle folks, regarding communication, those folks disappear.

And history has shown that those who can integrate in a more simple and less emotional manner... are overall, going to bring the most discourse that is functional to the greater group.

This may appear as if I'm saying to keep the hotheaded and overtly emotionally tinged discourse off the forum, in style and essence of the given communication.... well..you'd be right.

What I'm saying is that of one cannot control their emotions and keep them out of posting on the forum, they bring about the destruction of the forum.

If you want an overly emotional forum that is full of such things, then it would not be the Avalon forum, would it not? It would be GLP or ATS, or worse.

Police yourself, it really is that simple. If one cannot police their emotions, then where is one, anyway?

I can be emotionally interjective , to flavour and color via it, with my posting, as much as the next person can.

However, I realize this essential point, how fundamentally important it is. so I keep that off and out of the forum.

Polite discourse means exactly that. No strong emotional toning of your posts, otherwise you are contributing to the forum's destruction.

If one does not see it that way, then they are in a state where their emotions are hiding this basic truth from them.

If you did not hear me say this before, I will repeat it: A friend of mine was a world class debating champion, in his university years. His prime statement on debating was that one cannot, at all, ~ever~ bring any overt emotion to the information that they attempt to impart in a given debate.

The moment one does that, they may have satisfied the self, but they have lost every single other participant.

Emotional tinging and similar is used to KEEP people in their state of satisfaction and position of view. All it does is massage the ego of the given person who has no desire to change their position or thinking. It is used to hold the line against outside or incoming logic and discourse. That is the realm of Fox News.

I hope that is clear. :)

Edit:
And, to add, if this is about the forum and the discourse on it, thus the greater amount of people on it... then a given individual who cannot keep it straight (with regard to the various forum aspects), eventually gets moved out. For all the right reasons. They don't die or anything, they just move to a different, more appropriate point or space. More appropriate for their stage of growth, at that time.

[ceetee9]

It's a nice ideal Ivanhoe (good name btw) but in reality, where do ideals get us? Is a Doctor not more important than a Bus Driver? Yes they both add to society in awesome ways but I'd rather live in a town with no Bus Drivers than one with no Doctors. Like it or not, in all communities there are people more important than us. The problem is this, it is their Role that is more important not them as a Person. A retired Doctor is less important than a Bus Driver. It's only when you make it about the individual that our egos start to resist and demand equality.All due respect Anno, but you're judging worth based on generalities. For example, if you need to get across town for a very important appointment and the only way you can make it is by bus, I believe, at that moment in time, a bus driver would become vastly more important than a doctor. One could also argue that a nuclear physicist is more important than a garbage collector, but if it's your neighborhood whose garbage is backing up, drawing rats and stinking to high heaven for lack of a garbage collector, I'd be willing to bet you'd find having a garbage collector much more important than that nuclear physicist. Everything is relative and every position/job has worth and value and while we can argue over what positions have more value, more of the time, than others, I think doing so only further exacerbates the differences between us and continues to maintain the class system that is destroying civilization and this planet. Don't forget it is TPTB who think they have the ultimate worth, value, and intelligence (and right) and look how well that has worked out for 7 billion people.

[onawah]

I think these lines that Carmody wrote bear repeating:
"Police yourself, it really is that simple. If one cannot police their emotions, then where is one, anyway?

I can be emotionally interjective , to flavour and color via it, with my posting, as much as the next person can.

However, I realize this essential point, how fundamentally important it is. so I keep that off and out of the forum.

Polite discourse means exactly that. No strong emotional toning of your posts, otherwise you are contributing to the forum's destruction.

If one does not see it that way, then they are in a state where their emotions are hiding this basic truth from them.

If you did not hear me say this before, I will repeat it: A friend of mine was a world class debating champion, in his university years. His prime statement on debating was that one cannot, at all, ~ever~ bring any overt emotion to the information that they attempt to impart in a given debate.

The moment one does that, they may have satisfied the self, but they have lost every single other participant.

Emotional tinging and similar is used to KEEP people in their state of satisfaction and position of view. All it does is massage the ego of the given person who has no desire to change their position or thinking. It is used to hold the line against outside or incoming logic and discourse. That is the realm of Fox News."

AND... I would add that anyone who deliberately (and I believe I have seen some of this on various threads) incites or manipulates another into losing control of their emotions, however masked or subtle a form that may take, is also guilty of sabotaging the forum. For those individuals, I get the sense it is for "sport" of some kind, but speaking for us gentle folk here on the forum, it is blatantly obvious that there is really nothing intrinsically fun or sporting about it.
And I think you know who you are...

[Lord Sidious]

Since there have been countless threads regarding the banning or forced vacations for members it is obviously an issue to some people. I would venture a guess that 99% of the people who are upset are supporters, friends or followers of the banned members. While this is a natural reaction to seeing a friend or favorite poster banned. it is also a cry from our ego. We grow used to hearing from our favorites and friends so we feel a loss and miss them when they are gone. These threads are the equivalent of a dog howling when their owner is gone.

I am going to assume that this thread is regarding Lord Sid and offer this... Rob (Lord Sid) crossed a line he was fully aware existed. He has defended the mods for making similar decisions with previously banned members. He is a big boy and understands what happened. While he might still be upset it is too easy for him to understand why this happened. He called a mod a 'Dick' and got pretty personal when really, his ego was bruised because people he suggested to become members were turned down. His desire for special treatement is rooted in the same spectrum from which the police see themselves as above the law. Sid feels like he is a special contributor (I would agree with that assessment) but he is not above being reprimanded for name calling and generally unacceptable behaviour.

Lets move on and hope Sid comes back in a few days...

How do you know what I think or feel?
I haven't been able to put my thoughts and feelings here for a week.
And your assumptions are not correct.
My ego wasn't bruised, I merely asked a question of an admin and got rebuffed quite rudely.
Also, I never asked for special treatment, can anyone show me where I did?
Also, can someone show me where I said I am a ''special contributor?''

[Rocky_Shorz]

I know you are a special contributor and look at all the nugget awards you've given out... I'm sure others would agree


glad to have you back


when someone said you weren't coming back, it did rock me, never thought you'd stroll away...

[Lord Sidious]

I know you are a special contributor and look at all the nugget awards you've given out... I'm sure others would agree


glad to have you back


when someone said you weren't coming back, it did rock me, never thought you'd stroll away...

It depends very much on how things go down here.
I am not looking for any more trouble, but there are serious problems we have to solve here, or we might as well just pack up.

[Limor Wolf]

Originally posted by Lord sidious: "Also, I never asked for special treatment, can anyone show me where I did?"

I have been present in the moderators team when your behaviour suggested just that. I would be quite cautious when using words infront of an audience Rob,words do have power,and we better be precise.

Best,

Limor

[Lord Sidious]

Originally posted by Lord sidious: "Also, I never asked for special treatment, can anyone show me where I did?"

I have been present in the moderators team when your behaviour suggested just that. I would be quite cautious when using words infront of an audience Rob,words do have power,and we better be precise.

Best,

Limor

What you were seeing is other peoples version of what I said.
I have had problems with two mods here relaying things back to the team and they didn't relay what I said accurately.
As you would know, I am usually precise in what I say on the forum.

[vibrations]

Thinking is good, but thinking that someone is worth more than you or less than you, .....here we have a problem.

Somewhere up you've said dear Anno, "is not a doctor more important than a bus driver". Well, not, we are all the same. Spirit incarnated in a roll of a bus driver or spirit incarnated as a doctor. It's just an outer appearance, nothing else, in reality I met more polite bus drivers in two months living in UK than I met polite doctor my entire life.

Rewind back and think again.

[Limor Wolf]

Originally posted by Lord sid:" What you were seeing is other peoples version of what I said."

I have quite a good judjment of my own. I have followed carefully and saw how you conducted yourself with the Charles saga - how you chose your words,who to support and your demands,a lot of it Behind the scenes. all very fine and very legitimate,I am for free expression and diversity of opinions but I would not Remove responsibility from my shoulders and attach it to others unless I am squeaky clean...



Originally posted by Lord sidious:"As you would know, I am usually precise in what I say on the forum."

I wouldn't know that,I assume that you percieve yourself as percise in what you say on the forum probably as we all do.

No hard feelings,but sometimes its better set the record straight..


I am glad that you are back and brought that special spark of yours :-)


~*&^~*&

Limor

[Lord Sidious]

Originally posted by Lord sid:" What you were seeing is other peoples version of what I said."

I have quite a good judjment of my own. I have followed carefully and saw how you conducted yourself with the Charles saga - how you chose your words,who to support and your demands,a lot of it Behind the scenes. all very fine and very legitimate,I am for free expression and diversity of opinions but I would not Remove responsibility from my shoulders and attach it to others unless I am squeaky clean...



Originally posted by Lord sidious:"As you would know, I am usually precise in what I say on the forum."

I wouldn't know that,I assume that you percieve yourself as percise in what you say on the forum probably as we all do.

No hard feelings,but sometimes its better set the record straight..


I am glad that you are back and brought that special spark of yours :-)


~*&^~*&

Limor

People react to things I saw without taking notice of what I say.
I will use one example you speak of, the atticus saga.
When I said I had not seen any evidence that stephan had lied to me, that doesn't mean he didn't, that means I have no evidence of it.
There are many other examples too, but I say things the way I do for a reason.
The ''demands'' that I am meant to have made were for a specific reason, which most of the staff were aware of.
All I wanted to do was to try and help and some people then decided I was a bad guy.
I have never looked for trouble, nor have I set out to cause anyone trouble.
Thanks for the compliments Limor, I appreciate it.

[Limor Wolf]

Originally posted by Lord Sidious: "People react to things I saw without taking notice of what I say"

Well,thats tough,but you know,it happens to all of us,we are not always listend to or acted upon our advice.

I hope that you will forgive me,Rob, but I rather not get back into the 'nitty gritty' of who said what to who in the 'Charles saga',our energy can be spent so much better,wouldn't you agree?


Originally posted by Lord Sidious :"All I wanted to do was to try and help and some people then decided I was a bad guy."

But you see,this is a wrong assumpssion.to the best of my knowledge,no one at staff thought that you are a 'bad guy',and what is this good/bad thing anyway?

you are intense at times and very much insist that things will be done according to the way you want it to be done,but life not always work like that,children learn this very fast,or else,they will later find it difficult to cope when they find that the world is not always revolve around them.


Originally posted by Lord Sidious:"I have never looked for trouble, nor have I set out to cause anyone trouble."

No,I believe you dont,and again its a matter of perception.to me it felt back than that you were playing both sides - and that was a certain winner ticket wichever way this saga will turn out (and may it rest in peace :)
but that is my personal observation ONLY and as I said this is an absolutly legitimate stand to take,as much as it is legitimate for others to observe it,identify it and not co-operate.

I am learning a lot from you Rob,you are a man of strong opinions,you are a true warrior with a big heart,you own a good sense of smell to government manipulations and a wonderfull sense of humor.
as equal to that, I also learn from you what not to do


With respect,

~*&^~*&

Limor

[Lord Sidious]

Well,thats tough,but you know,it happens to all of us,we are not always listend to or acted upon our advice.

This is true, one of the parts of life we have to deal with. I don't always succeed at it, but I try.


I hope that you will forgive me,Rob, but I rather not get back into the 'nitty gritty' of who said what to who in the 'Charles saga',our energy can be spent so much better,wouldn't you agree?

Forgive you? You aren't wrong in what you said, there is a lot of negativity surrounding that topic and yes, it is better spent on something that can have a positive outcome.


But you see,this is a wrong assumpssion.to the best of my knowledge,no one at staff thought that you are a 'bad guy',and what is this good/bad thing anyway?

Well, the vibes I got from some indicated to me that I wasn't welcome here, hence me taking some time out before.
And yeah, you are right, good/bad is the judgement thing again.
I haven't defeated that limitation yet, I am trying.


you are intense at times and very much insist that things will be done according to the way you want it to be done,but life not always work like that,children learn this very fast,or else,they will later find it difficult to cope when they find that the world is not always revolve around them.

Yeah, you are right about that too, I can be intense.
I don't mean to be, but that is how I have become after some of the things I have had to deal with in this life.
Part of the reason I am insistant on things is that I know how to do some things and I get frustrated when people want to reinvent the wheel, whilst I have one in my hand.
Not that others are stupid, but I have developed many skills through necessity in this life and I know from trial and error what to do.


No,I believe you dont,and again its a matter of perception.to me it felt back than that you were playing both sides - and that was a certain winner ticket wichever way this saga will turn out (and may it rest in peace :)
but that is my personal observation ONLY and as I said this is an absolutly legitimate stand to take,as much as it is legitimate for others to observe it,identify it and not co-operate.

I never back both sides, although it may have looked that way, part of my goal was to get people to stop seeing that so one sided and see if they could see the other side too.
I have said many times, my colours don't run. When I have an opinion and no one can show me I am wrong, then there is no retreat.
And yes, that is a legitimate stand for you to take if that is what you are observing. Text is hard to deal with as there is nothing other than words to try and get what someone means.


I am learning a lot from you Rob,you are a man of strong opinions,you are a true warrior with a big heart,you own a good sense of smell to government manipulations and a wonderfull sense of humor.
as equal to that, I also learn from you what not to do

I have learnt a heap in the months I have been here Limor.
Some from you too.
I have had to develop the skill of watching government, they have been after me in one way or another for half my life.
I read a quote from a guy called Andrew Carnegie, he said that when you do something and it doesn't work, you are closer to figuring out how it does work.
I too learn from my mistakes, although not all the time. I fall back into old habits more than I want to.


With respect,

~*&^~*&

Limor


And with much to you also Limor.

[ktlight]

Lord Sidious, I think it is the Irish in you.

[Lord Sidious]

Lord Sidious, I think it is the Irish in you.

Partially, yes.
But I have been forced to fight with virtually every government dept you could think of, state and federal and even some councils too.
That tends to shape the way you deal with things and people.

[Ilie Pandia]

Rob,

Please consider this. You say the mod team misinterpreted and did not perceive "as they are" your actions and words and on the forum. May I submit that you do the same in our case? And you sometimes get offended or upset when is not really the case (at least from where I am standing)?

Sometimes we don't see eye to eye, and we disagree, but this doesn't mean we need to get angry with each other and you to try to "fix" the forum and the moderation team because something is wrong.

PS: I have to be extra careful when replying to you Rob :D. Not only that English is not my fist language, but you are a trained lawyer! And, in what I've seen so far, you tend to read text in all the variations possible, as if it were the text of law, looking for the most convenient interpretation. I don't know if you are aware of this, but this is how it looks for a geek ,non-English speaker, that discovers new meanings of words, and "statement analysis" when reading your posts.

[Lord Sidious]

Rob,

Please consider this. You say the mod team misinterpreted and did not perceive "as they are" your actions and words and on the forum. May I submit that you do the same in our case? And you sometimes get offended or upset when is not really the case (at least from where I am standing)?

Sometimes we don't see eye to eye, and we disagree, but this doesn't mean we need to get angry with each other and you to try to "fix" the forum and the moderation team because something is wrong.

PS: I have to be extra careful when replying to you Rob :D. Not only that English is not my fist language, but you are a trained lawyer! And, in what I've seen so far, you tend to read text in all the variations possible, as if it were the text of law, looking for the most convenient interpretation. I don't know if you are aware of this, but this is how it looks for a geek ,non-English speaker, that discovers new meanings of words, and "statement analysis" when reading your posts.

That is fair enough, to extend to you guys the same concept.
The thing is, I am not stupid and I know how to take words and actions that are put together, some of which I have already posted about.
I don't recall ever having an issue with you Ilie, so you aren't one of those I spoke of.
I wasn't trying to fix anything with my invitations thread. I attempted to try and help sort out an issue in private and got treated very rudely.
So, I put it on the forum to get an answer.
I can't fix anything, I am not on staff, but I can bring a problem to the attention of the people who can.
I don't look for any convenient translations of peoples posts, what I try to figure out is what they mean.
Text alone isn't easy, even for people who excel at the language.