Psychological effects of circumcision?

[Omni]

I had a thought while I was outside just now...

What psychological effects does severe pain and suffering the moment you enter the world have, if any?

Does anyone have some intelligent thoughts or knowledge about this?

Have any tests been done regarding circumcision, in terms of psychological profiling etc and seeing if any big differences occur with non circumcised and circumcised??

I'm not saying circumcision will make someone bad or anything like that. And I hope nobody feels bad if they are(I wont say if I am or not). I just think it may have an effect on a babies psyche. Perhaps it is totally washed away with time. I don't remember when I was born :p

Do things that happen to you at that age even matter in terms of development later in life?

What do you think the long term psychological effects(if any) of circumcision at birth are for babies?

[Heyoka_11]

Hi Omniverse,

I honestly don't think that it matters one way or the other. Perhaps those who have been circumcised would eventually question the removal of what was once a part of their being, but who knows. For my own part, I think that the only time in life when the question would cross a males mind, would be during adolescence, and only extend as far as pondering what the girls actually prefer!

I am assuming that the procedure would be conducted using a local anesthetic, so perhaps the psychological effects of suffering pain may not be an issue.

[KosmicKat]

Do things that happen to you at that age even matter in terms of development later in life?
All I can say from the point of view of a mother is that I have seen too many examples of parents who think their child is too young to be affected by something in their environment. It may be years before the damage becomes evident, but it can be identified.

[westhill]

I have two sons both are NOT circumcised because I researched it ahead of time. This is unnecessary trauma set deep in the mind where there are no words just experience perpetrated on BABIES, usually without pain killers.
They scream. Let's think which part of your body you would like cut off today. Even back in the late 1980s 50% of parents were deciding not to circumcise theirs sons. Imagine if we decided to start slicing our daughters. I said no!
westhill

[Deedee]

After my Sister's Son was born she showed me the bruising after his circumcision. I swore after seeing that I would never do that to my Son and I never did..

[delfine]

The research of a hypnotherapist like dr. Shakuntala Modi shows that it is indeed very traumatizing for an infant to go through circumcision, and it often has grave future implications for the
child. You can find the info in her book: "memories of God and creation".

[9eagle9]

I agreee there Westhill, its ritual mutilation, its patriachal in nature, a patriachal rite meant to de masculanize or at least traumatize a man's access to his true divine birthrite, blocking access to masculine energy right at the offset....a sort of cellular memory trauma . This act has Jewish origins, now bump up to concentration camps, which had thousands of men in them, and a handful of guards. Those men could not overwhelm a handful of guards....because.....they were literally from birth cut off from the energies that would allow it...it sounds bizzare and its a bit more in depth than that but......that's the brief summary.


Men no more belong in patriachal energy than women do....

Can this divine essence be reclaimed. Naturally, it never went away ....its a trauma, a means of 'cutting' off a man from his divine masculine energies, and the first step is understanding it, and then abating the cellular memory trauma attached to it.

[seko]

They did it to me when I was a new born. I feel good hihihi

I'm not jewish. I actually thought that it was normal to be like this. hihihi ;)

Never had an issue about it.

But it's good to hear you sharing your points of view on this one.

Thanks to all.

[9eagle9]

Do you feel good or...do you have no other frame of reference or experience in this lifetime to measure your 'feel good' by?

If you had the opportunity to live for a few moments without that trauma imposed on you, to make a comparison by, you may very well walk away with a different opinion of 'feel good'.

[Carmody]

This is my hypothesis, and there is every evidence to support that it is real. As the origins of religion and secret societies become exposed into the grander public view, the face and the farce of these hidden systems also becomes exposed.

IMO, it creates a blockage in the mind, a block to the doorway of the source and is , IMO a contrived act designed to create socoopathic tendencies in the males of the tribe. This, in order to use them as a grouped weapon against the world. To prevent the reach for spirituality, true depths of spirituality. True depths of connection to spirit and dimensions.

To cut men of that group off from the true source of their power and to keep it in the hands of the preisthood.

That is the true face of the reasons for circumcision, IMO.

it may be riding under the guise of being for some other reasons but, note that the depth of true spirituality and connection to the pathway to multidimensional freedom, to true multidimensional spirituality via the esoteric arts is exceedingly in deficit in all groups of people who practice circumcision.

The way is closed.

They even demand that it be done on a specific day, the 8th day (judaic). This was done, I suspect in a Mengele type level of experimentation, by observation of the results. Too early, too sociopathic. Too late, not effective enough.

The door is not shut in a big, huge way, it is simply pushed away, in the base wiring. Deep in the system, fully outside of conscious thought or conscious realization. In essence, in the levels that only deep hypnosis into the base layers can reveal. The neural connections to source at the base launch of thoughts level, where our consciousness forms and comes out of and passes through, it is shifted, blocked, circumvented from visiting depths.

The door to the depths of spirituality is filtered out by damaging the actual neural connective tissue that forms in early age. Like cutting a main branch off a tree, when it is a few days old. Sure the tree grows up. But how fast and how perfect would it have grown, if it's main reach, it's main spiral of life had not been cut off when it was a few days old? That is what has been done to circumcised males. You've been blocked from developing properly in a full normal human lifespan. The mark of the hidden hand lies in the very act of one's circumcision.

So they tuned it, to fit their desires, then the populace get another explanation that is 'believable'. Thus it becomes embedded into the religious system, from then on, without question. This goes back to the banana on the stairs and the spraying of the monkeys experiment, which did indeed happen (http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Did_the_monkey_banana_and_water_spray_experiment_ever_take_place). We can have traditions that we follow with absolute rigor, that have no meaning in conscious thinking reality but we do not question them.

The same thing happens in science, we become dogmatic in that space, as well. We fail to question the fundamentals.

The way is closed.

I always question everything for it's true veracity. It's true depths.

This came about, as I've said before, when I asked questions with my dad, as a kid. He'd say, 'lets figure it out'. So we'd try and reason it out. When we reached the limit of our knowledge and his knowledge, he'd admit defeat, for we had exhausted our knowledge base. He then told me that we needed more information and that the path from then own, was my own. We would also guess, and then test fit the guesses. This is critical. It established the methodology for hypothesis and test fitting of data, in my mind, as a core design/function/wiring parameter.

And in that way, he'd not supply 'answers' to me, he supplied, instilled in me the 'capacity to reason'. Which was just as effective in shutting me up. It just took a bit more effort and time than taking the easy way out, the lazy way out --by telling me to shut up.

So, with that simple methodology tied to about 1 year of effort when I was a child, he established the capacity in my growing mind to REASON and look into everything. Instead of turning me into a dogmatic religious turnip. For turnips are blocked from developing reason, they are wired to only take answers.

They are wired to unflinchingly believe 'paradox'. That there are places that contain only unquestionable answers, and not to expand their minds. Shut up kid! Be quiet! Stop bothering me!

That is how important it was, for him to do it that way. He was child #4 out of 13. So he had a chance to see how the world is put together, from being babied, to then being in charge of children, as a child. To see how the world and what is in it, affects children, as they grow. To learn this, at and in his core development. And none of the boys in that group were circumcised.

Most Native American male children, for example, understand and can reach spirit and dimensions. No childhood trauma forced on them. I had Native American friends when I was a child. My experience is direct. I had some that were westernized, in their childhoods. The difference was plain to see.


IF this seems a bit 'over the top, well understand this: That the limit of one's capacity to reason, is not the limit of the next. There is always someone smarter than you. In that equation, knowledge, or even data, can be exchanged for capacity to think. Paradox means you are missing some data or your search for data is incomplete, that there is base information that you are unaware of, on and in some level.

The trick of the political class, the ruling class, the secretive class, is just that. They rule via contrivance and hidden data. They work with information and information control. They work with the transfer and control of information between people and the record and thus manipulate the unseen and unrealized areas of human psychology.

When sociopaths grow, as children, this is the first thing they encounter. they encounter a base morality and base empathy and connection in others, that they step into, in a wrong way, by accident. They keep doing it as they cannot understand it as a barrier. Thus they are educated in the ways of how to navigate the unseen and unrealized aspects of morality, ethics, social glue and societal function, as children. they learn cunning,and secretiveness, as a method of survival. To understand how to be safe but hidden in a group that is not of their wiring type or ilk. They learned it as a matter of survival. The best sociopaths are not in prison, and there are one hellova lot more of them than you think. The most cunning and dangerous have risen to power positions in society, as they have not the moral and ethical limits that you have.

So my point is, that the very position of being sociopaths as children, has taught them how to manipulate the rest of us and how to, over time, group together as like minds, form secret societies, manipulate society, manipulate the unseen paths in people and groups and manipulate and create religious structures.

I hope this illustrates how you've ended up with a nightmare machine, hiding at the deepest levels, at the top, running your world, unseen. Unseen by the more empathetic and reasonable of humans who have no need or desire for such insanities. You simply didn't see it, it has been purposely hidden by the kind of people that the idea of hidden gears and clockworks and such machinations and manipulations come to them, naturally. It is their world. If you saw these insanities, you'd do something about it. Thus the lessons in survival of sociopaths, as children.

It is well past time to shut them down.

You must also understand that they cannot shut that function off in themselves, they will always do this, they are wired that way. We need to get to the point that an entire generation of humankind has excised them from the system, and then continue recognizing them properly in the childhood state, and circumventing their very creation as an animalistic and antagonistic destructive individual who will gather with others of like mind as they mature.

For this is EXACTLY how they function and hide... and from that hidden space, they reach out and do the same to you. They tear down your social and societal fabric to insert their own desires.

They turn the males into little soldiers for their causes and desires, damage the females through this vehicle they've created and manipulate entire countries, continents and worlds... for their desires. They are cunning, secretive, and nasty.

You'll have to grow to be aware of this, and thus fix it at the root causal point. And never, ever, as long as this earth shares space with this sort of genetic trait, never relax your guard.

For they cannot re-wire their minds any more than you can. And that rust will never sleep, and thus.... neither can you.

They want and will kill in any way they desire to, with no empathy or caring of what they do to you, they are trying to re-wire the world in their shape, their nightmare. They do it from and in their own methods and wiring, launched out of their psychology and very existence. They mirror themselves, just like all of us do.

It is as 'plain as day', as they say.. All you have to do is open your eyes, with this information... and you can see it, everywhere.

[Koyaanisqatsi]

I'm with Carmody on this one, as is often the case. There's no medical reason(people don't have to wait two years to bathe) anymore so why is it still practiced?

[Koyaanisqatsi]

After a few quick searches:
PAIN RESPONSE DURING CIRCUMCISION

To help in determining the degree of pain and stress caused by circumcision, infant response was compared to that resulting from other procedures. Levels of cortisol (a hormone released into the blood in response to stress) and behavioral responses were recorded for newborns undergoing circumcision, heel-stick blood sampling, weighing and measuring, and discharge examination. Circumcision resulted in significantly higher levels of behavioral distress and blood cortisol levels than did the other procedures. Since the infant is restrained during circumcision, the response to the use of restraint was similarly tested
Circumcision pain is described in this research study by Howard Stang and his colleagues from the Department of Pediatrics, Group Health Inc., and the University of Minnesota Institute of Child Development: “There is no doubt that circumcisions are painful for the baby. Indeed, circumcision has become a model for the analysis of pain and stress responses in the newborn.” They report that the infant will “cry vigorously, tremble, and in some cases become mildly cyanotic [having blueness or lividness of the skin, caused by a deficiency of oxygen] because of prolonged crying.”
Another article went on to describe how this cortisol(stress hormone release) should never enter a childs life until later years and that it permanently changes the childs physiology from the get go. Very interesting, I can now say I certainly WILL NOT have any child of mine genitally mutilated after birth, good thread thank you!

[Carmody]

One can relax the self and have the door open again. What has to be done, in my personal experience, is to go back, in the mind... and relive life as a small nearly newborn child, to relive those moments and reconnect. Not for a few minutes but weeks, months even --to get the mind to rewire. To rewire around and beyond the block.

So that is what I did.

I was not circumcised. What happened to me was arguably worse.

[Ella]

I seem to remember in 'The Magical Child' by Joseph Chilton Pearce, that he even suggests a link to sudden death syndrome in babies. He certainly believes that it is linked to severe childhood trauma.

Thank goodness it isn't something that is widely practiced here in Sweden.

[Carmody]

So each of you circumcised males of good spirit, good intent, humane thinking and desire, you literally bear the mark of the hidden hand, on and in your mind and body, as a direct attempt to circumvent you from becoming who you really are.....and to use you as a weapon against all other people, in an effort to tear down everything you believe in.

If you then understand this, I can't imagine the level of your anger, your desire ...the absolute smoldering unending rage that will build.....to see this thing, this nightmare - end.

And now you know.

And from this point onward, every thought, every moment... will be transformed into unending knowledge of, a knowing.... a desire ...to end this thing. For you bear the mark, at the deepest level.

[onawah]

"The Magical Child" is such an important book! Pearce's work deserves so much more attention.


I seem to remember in 'The Magical Child' by Joseph Chilton Pearce, that he even suggests a link to sudden death syndrome in babies. He certainly believes that it is linked to severe childhood trauma.

Thank goodness it isn't something that is widely practiced here in Sweden.

[Ella]

"The Magical Child" is such an important book! Pearce's work deserves so much more attention.


I seem to remember in 'The Magical Child' by Joseph Chilton Pearce, that he even suggests a link to sudden death syndrome in babies. He certainly believes that it is linked to severe childhood trauma.

Thank goodness it isn't something that is widely practiced here in Sweden.


Its is indeed a wonderful book..... the only 'child rearing' book that I have bothered to read as a mother with a young child. I wish more people who had children would read it.

[chancy]

Good day everyone:
I had to post here because there seems to be alot of misconceptions in regards to circumcision. First off I must say that being a fellow that believes in circumcision I seem to be going against the grain in this thread. What amazes me the most is the loudest in regards to NO circumcision don't have it done or don't believe in it. I am standing on the ladder and proclaiming that circumcision is good! It's not for everyone and that is completely a free choice for everyone. But to tell people what it's not is not right either. First off I was circumcised and have had NO ill effects other than cleanliness. My sons have been circumsised with NO ill effects. One was done at 3 years old which was recommended by the doctor and I DEFINITELY don't agree with waiting until 3. (This doctor is no longer our doctor). My son who is alot older now knew about circumcision as early as he could possible remember. He likes the idea of being circumcised because it's alot easier to pee straight and he doesn't have to always spend time taking extra time bathing to clean the extra foreskin.
I have asked him his opinions and he is very forthright stating it's the only was to go.
My other son was done at 5 days old and it was so unobtrusive that it wasn't even noticed. He's in complete agreement with circumcision also.
IF I had to make the decision to circumcised my kids again I would in a heartbeat. My wifes family does not believe in the practice and even she agrees that having her sons circumcised was the right thing to do.
PLEASE NOTE: Circumcision is a personal choice and therefore should be respected as so. It's not for everyone and that's why in the usa it's a 50/50 devide. In Canada it's a 70/30 for it, Elsewhere I have no idea. When making the choice yes or no it's always and should be a personal family choice. I did not have circumcision done to me or my kids for religious beliefs. It was always done for cleanliness and ease of keeping clean. This is only our families personal beliefs.
I am only giving a positive side to this topic. Take it for what it's worth.
May everyone find truth in a swells of information.
Chancy

[Carmody]

That is patently ridiculous.

Let an adult decide if they want to mutilate themselves. Don't do it for them as a child...or put it in their minds.

You are failing to understand the depth of importance in this little bit of skin, and how it has been done, how and when it has been removed.....throughout time and history.

You have failed to read upon, or understand the point..... altogether.

To overstate things slightly in the physical world..but to greatly understate with relation to be and reach true connectedness in spirituality:...It's like telling people it is a good idea to cut off the child's index finger at birth so they'll never pick their nose.

You appear to be coming to a wrong conclusion in a layer of physicality about something that is much deeper, with regard real depths of truth in this matter.

It's like me forming a giant lie.... and telling kids they need to go the middle east and kill terrorists. You are missing the point entirely.

[Maia Gabrial]

How about the effects it has on moms who sent their infant sons to get it done? My son was peacefully asleep when they wheeled him out. But when they brought him back, he was grunting in pain. And I felt horrible guilt. None of the men in my family, including uncles and cousins here in the US and in Europe are circumsized. They're fine. No infections or any of the reasons they use to get people to do it.

[Carmody]

Now for the good side:
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


This knot in the mind, it has left a marker.

It can be found, it can be reached, as it is a point of difference. It is the marker itself.

The point can be dealt with, via self hypnotics and regression, it can be cleared and the door..is eerily.....incredibly close......it's right there.

[vibrations]

Any pain, any intervention on a child's body will sooner or later show up as some psychical issue. You may feel "good" and laughing at it, but it is there, something in your life is affected with it.

In the other side, the natural architecture (Mr. God himself or through genetic engineers of more advanced races) has it's purpose, but it feels so good being a God for a moment, changing anatomy a bit, just because somewhere in an old book full of lies someone write it down. And traumatized my own child with it, well, no thank you. It's the matter of using a brain for what it is - thinking. And a mind for loving, not cutting.

[Deedee]

And let us not forget "how valuable of a money maker" that little piece of foreskin is... Oh yes, it's being sold to the de-wrinkle cream factories for the creams that costs hundreds of dollars... The reason people make the decision to have their babies skin removed is because of their "belief system", religious or otherwise.. but I won't forget the day my OBGyn asked me and my husband if we would have the foreskin removed and I said "No" and my husband said "Yes" (he was circumsized)... Of course I was not happy when my OB Gyn looked at my husband and said.. "Don't worry, you have upto a month.. perhaps she'll change her mind"... So this is not just a "belief system" but it can also be influenced by the Doc and Hubby so ladies.. please do your homework and make your decision when deciding.. after all you carried him for 9 months and you do in fact get ultimate say.. if you believe it!

[Heyoka_11]

That is patently ridiculous / You are failing to understand / You have failed to read upon / You are missing the point entirely.

Hello Carmody,

Please tone it down! It is easy to be respectful toward someone when we agree with them, but your mettle is tested when choosing the manner in which to disagree.

Chancy is not the most prolific of posters on this forum, and after your virtual tongue lashing, I would not be surprised if post 18 is their last.

Fostering healthy communication on this forum is my only motive for bringing this to your attention.

Thank you,

Tony.

[chancy]

That is patently ridiculous.
Let an adult decide if they want to mutilate themselves. Don't do it for them as a child...or put it in their minds.
You are failing to understand the depth of importance in this little bit of skin, and how it has been done, how and when it has been removed.....throughout time and histoy.

Greetings everyone: Actually it's not mutilation. There's no mutilating involved. That's why there are parents that love and care for their kids. I am not failing to see or understand circumcision. I am well versed in the history and why it was and is done. As I mentioned in my post it's FREE CHOICE TO CHOOSE just like it's your choice to be against it. I am not ragging on anyone for being against it because it's their FREE CHOICE TO CHOOSE.

You have failed to read upon, or understand the point..... altogether

I have not failed to read upon, or understand the point. I GET IT! I GET IT! I GET IT! Just as you failed to understand what I wrote because you think I mutilated my kids which I DID NOT. I LOVE MY KIDS TOO MUCH. That being said I made a choice along with my wife and we are very happy with it along with our kids. End of story.


To overstate things slightly in the physical world..but to greatly understate with relation to be and reach true connectedness in spirituality:...It's like telling people it is a good idea to cut off the child's index finger at birth so they'll never pick their nose.

First of all you know nothing about me and my spirituality. You know nothing about my family and our spirituality therefore you are NOT in a POSITION to talk about our SPIRITUALITY. You certainly can talk about yours and your families and I won't have a problem with that! Now you are putting words in my mouth because I NEVER SAID or IMPLIED "it is a good idea to cut off the child's index finger at birth so they'll never pick their nose" You said this and I was talking from fact and you are talking from fiction when you make statements like these. I simply told my story and how circumcision has NOT AFFECTED myself or my sons in anyway PERIOD. Nothing was implied and nothing was to be read between the lines. You are OVER ANALYZING what I wrote.


You appear to be coming to a wrong conclusion in a layer of physicality about something that is much deeper, with regard real depths of truth in this matter.

There; was NO CONCLUSION in a layer of physicality to be wrong about since you are right it's just a piece of skin. Nothing more and nothing less. My spirituality and my families spirituality has not suffered. When things are over analyzed then people do wrong things because they are trying to make things become what they want them to.I am not trying to manipulate or sway the real truth which I presented in my post only about myself and my sons. PERIOD.
To set the record straight there was NO ONE looking over my shoulder or my wifes shoulder forcing us to circumcise our boys.

It's like me forming a giant lie.... and telling kids they need to go the middle east and kill terrorists. You are missing the point entirely.
There is no lie or conspiracy in my post. I simply told the truth. Just because you cannot handle the truth in regards to my post that is definitely not my fault or intention. I was simply telling the side that wasn't being told yet. REMEMBER there are always two sides to every story. Unfortunately most people can't analyze both sides and come to a reasonable conclusion.
Again you are putting words in my mouth "It's like me forming a giant lie.... and telling kids they need to go the middle east and kill terrorists. You are missing the point entirely"
I am talking about circumcision and you're talking about things that have NO BEARING on circumcision. There is NO LIE that I am telling since it's about myself and my kids. The only one telling lies is YOU as trying to put many words in my mouth like the quotations from you "It's like me forming a giant lie.... and telling kids they need to go the middle east and kill terrorists. You are missing the point entirely".
This is how people get into big arguments about something so small as a grain of salt. I knew I was going to take flak for telling the truth but aren't we ALL HERE FOR TRUTH? If not then I have been very mistaken about what we are all here for then?
PS I haven't missed the point at all....
Chancy

[Czarek]

The verdict if I should get my son cut or not was: NOT TO CUT. It took a lot of research to come to this decision. Just as with any topic, you'll come by a lot of BS. The "magical child" is worth its weight in gold, or even more IMO. Unfortunately, despite what you tell your spouse, some are not able to go the distance no matter what benefits are there to be gained. Some times I wish I was a man AND a woman. Strange...

[Carmody]

That is patently ridiculous / You are failing to understand / You have failed to read upon / You are missing the point entirely.

Hello Carmody,

Please tone it down! It is easy to be respectful toward someone when we agree with them, but your mettle is tested when choosing the manner in which to disagree.

Chancy is not the most prolific of posters on this forum, and after your virtual tongue lashing, I would not be surprised if post 18 is their last.

Fostering healthy communication on this forum is my only motive for bringing this to your attention.

Thank you,

Tony.

You are abolutely right.

I should not have.

And I should have.

Both are true.

I'm positive of both, unsure of either.

I do not believe parents should be allowed to mutilate their children. That I am sure of.

I stated my position and why. It has nothing to do with the feeling of peeing better and looking just like dad or any other act of 'reasoning.'

The depth of the matter is much greater than that, from my explorations. To me, surface reasoning is not an answer. It is the wrong answer with the wrong question asked, due to the true depth of the situation not being realized or understood.

This is how those who manipulate societies, cultures and even continents work. That depth, that level, that kind of layering.

[seko]

oK, just talked to my mother about what happened to me when circumcision was done to me, she was there and saw it.

Anesthesia was used, I didn't cry. Felt no pain in anyway afterwards. Not for peeing, or any other situation.

Skin was cut, but not removed from the body. Just cut enough for the penis to get it out of that layer of skin or bag.

I read and understood what Carmondy, 9eagle9 and Deedee said.

I can trust my mother on this one, she was and she's very straight, no lies.

They might be different ways of doing it, but in my case it was all good.

I will still read any post and be neutral. No offense taken.

[Carmody]

oK, just talked to my mother about what happened to me when circumcision was done to me, she was there and saw it.

Anesthesia was used, I didn't cry. Felt no pain in anyway afterwards. Not for peeing, or any other situation.

Skin was cut, but not removed from the body. Just cut enough for the penis to get it out of that layer of skin or bag.

I read and understood what Carmondy, 9eagle9 and Deedee said.

I can trust my mother on this one, she was and she's very straight, no lies.

They might be different ways of doing it, but in my case it was all good.

I will still read any post and be neutral. No offense taken.

Yes, in this modern world, this is true. However...many places and people have had it done -otherwise. For thousands of years. The point about the depth of psychological and thus physiological neural wiring, at the most critical depth and level..the newborn level......still stands.

We are talking about Root Chakra, Kundalini. Access to what allows us to move into being as and at the higher self. The path, as a potential... is damaged by this act.

All for a religious dogma. For a fitting into the group. Definitely not the best thing to be doing.

[ulli]

When I had my son it took a lot of strength to say No.
The obstetrician as well as my former husband and a nurse
were pretty forceful in their efforts to get my consent,
but they didn't realize that in my case any coercion is counter-productive.
My son never held it against me.

[Koyaanisqatsi]

Just ask yourself this" Is forever changing my childs physiology and prematurely surging his little body with cortisol and stress markers, making his first notable experience one of trauma(or chemically introduced numbing agents), worth whatever that kid will get out of having no foreskin? I do agree w Carmody that it should be illegal to force this on a child. its always an option later in life if the kid is too damn lazy to wash the penis properly (women must wash to stay cleanly too, perhaps moreso, should we cut off labia?) or wants a different look to da pee pee.

[Darla Ken Pearce]

Sometimes when I see a thread that stands without comments, I will break the ice to get things moving in a positive way. This one, I decided not to touch with a ten foot pole. Now when I've returned, many are contributing and war has broken out below the bible belt and even in the mideast.

It's not that I didn't have some contribution as the mother of three boys and four girls who had to make a decision on this matter. I also believe that whacking babies to get them to cry at birth and having them born under bright, horrific lights when they came from the safety and warmth of a womb is awful punishment that will be paid for down the road. The salad forks to push, drag and prod were nasty, too.

My nieces now, deliver their babies at home with soft music, no lights, no instruments of torture and in wading pools set up in a basement with warm water flowing. In addition, birds could be singing them into life for all I know. I heard about a dolphin one time but this hasn't been verified yet. Much kinder, better adjusted kids, no doubt are being born. But who knew back in the day? My kids are middle age now and it's too late to go back and make other decisions. Once we realize the damage, though, we can be aware and repair it ourselves from within our own bodies. This is where self-healing comes in...

Incidentally, please do not turn this into a religious war amongst yourselves. It's an emotionally packed topic and Ego loves to jump in these spaces and wreck havoc for no decent reason! This is exactly how we got into this extreme mess in the first place.

We've made a lot of mistakes as humans and later paid for them in doctor bills, analysts, and the FEAR FACTOR. What I recently found most interesting is that when the Illuminati tinkered and took away much of our talents and good DNA strands, they purposely left the root chakra in tact for absolute control issues. The dirty dogs!

Testosterone has caused so many wars and war like behaviors, it is pathetic in hindsight. We are not only self-healing, we are super self-destructive and especially once the Divine Masculine and Feminine went so far out of balance. Your private parts being out of tune ~ is about all the dark we can handle but this is just IMHO and of course, I'm about as prejudice as you can get.

Leaving only two strands operative has, indeed, caused most of our problems.

We are getting this balance back now (THANK GOD AND ANGELS ABOVE AND EVEN STRANGERS IF YOU CAN FIND ONE) and we are to go forth using all of our DNA strands. There is one strand per Chakra and we actually have 12 of them and not just 7 as believed at one time. It's too late to change decisions your mother made out of choices and beliefs at the time of most of our births. Forgive them and move on now.

Please, it'd be a blessing. You won't, of course, but I can ask anyway in kindness. Much must be forgiven ~ out of hand ~ for us to move out of darkness and into a whole new day. Let's go Tonto and nuggets! Time's awastin' Much love! xoxoxox

[chancy]

It's interesting that more men aren't adding to the conversation! It appears that on the whole the woman are against circumcision and the men are not saying ya or nay. From my perspective it would be the men that would have the say here since they're the ones who get circumcised. Let's here from the men....
Circumcision basically takes the penis outside of the glove. For anyone that doesn't know that needs to know that the man will thank his parents for getting him circumcised. I know I have been eternally greatful for my parents, particularly my mother because she insisted that the boys in the family got circumcised. ( remember TRUTH )
The debate will go one forever because there are people that think it hurts the child and I know it doesn't from being there and taking care of my kids afterwards. The debate will go on because there are people that are always trying to get in other peoples face about everything these days. I say mind your own business and take care of your own family. Life is much simpler and let people have the freedom of choice they deserve. Not all decisions will be correct BUT that's why we are parents. Parents are special people that have the future in their hands with their kids. Kids of course will learn from their parents and the debate goes on and on and on.................
Chancy

[Carmody]

Darla: One comment.

Please cease with the oversize text.

I read your post, but it was difficult to do ..as the text was 'yelling at me', and that never solves anything.

Thank you. :)

[bitworm]

I think guys who have had this done would typically want the same for their sons, in part for sanitary reasons, but also for social reasons depending on where they live. A guy understands locker room politics, which begins during middle school and wouldn't want for his son at that age to be in the minority regarding sheathed or unsheathed. The same thing on down the road when he becomes sexually active and wondering what the girls will say about it.

Personally I feel after surviving the shock of getting ripped out of a warm 9-month bath, feeling my full body weight and being forced to breathe air, whatever else gets thrown my way really pales in comparison.

[Snowbird]

I had a thought while I was outside just now...

What psychological effects does severe pain and suffering the moment you enter the world have, if any?

Does anyone have some intelligent thoughts or knowledge about this?

Have any tests been done regarding circumcision, in terms of psychological profiling etc and seeing if any big differences occur with non circumcised and circumcised??

I'm not saying circumcision will make someone bad or anything like that. And I hope nobody feels bad if they are(I wont say if I am or not). I just think it may have an effect on a babies psyche. Perhaps it is totally washed away with time. I don't remember when I was born :p

Do things that happen to you at that age even matter in terms of development later in life?

What do you think the long term psychological effects(if any) of circumcision at birth are for babies?

The opening poster has asked some questions which we are responding to. Circumcision is more widespread than is known. Not only is male circumcision common but female circumcision is common in many parts of the world.

This isn't a matter of making anyone feel badly or adding to the negative frequencies. This subject is extremely important for many reasons, some of which are listed below. I agree that circumcision is not understood. But perhaps by bringing forth this really personal and touchy subject, it will become more understood.

From national Geographic

Male Circumcision

Witness a male circumcision ritual in South Africa

MkHk-h8GkeE



Circumcision: Who Profits?

Circumcision is big business. Neonatal circumcision is the most frequently performed
routine operation in the US. Doctors are collecting as much as $240 million yearly to perform 1.2 million needless operations on 1.2 million normal penises. In England, under socialized medicine when physicians were no longer compensated monetarily, the circumcision rate fell to below 0.5%.

Most parents want the operation. I can make an extra $200. Why should I try to dissuade them? —Anonymous obstetrician

And then, there are the hidden factors that raise the cost of circumcision to the healthcare industry. For example, the additional cost of the added average half-day longer hospital stay for circumcised infants is estimated between $250-550 million beyond the charges for the procedure itself. The total cost of all neonatal circumcisions annually performed in hospitals in the US is well over a billion dollars.

Circumcision is extremely profitable for the medical-industrial complex. Human foreskins are in great demand for a number of commercial enterprises, and the marketing of purloined baby foreskins is also an immensely profitable industry. Some examples: Pharmaceutical companies use foreskin in the manufacture of interferon and other drugs and international biotech corporations are procuring cells from amputated foreskins and experimenting with artificial skin. According to a report in Forbes magazine, the annual market for baby-penis-derived products could be $1 to $2 billion. And all of this without the permission of the “donor.” Biotechnology firms like Organogenesis have received fast-lane approval from the FDA for its foreskin-based Graftskin. Doctors, medico-legal experts, and bioethicists were denied the opportunity to request a full hearing and voice their concerns over the ethics of trafficking in and marketing these foreskins.

http://www.thewellspring.com/flex/myth-circumcision-is-neither-harmful-nor-painful/2617/circumcision-who-profits.cfm


Medical Studies on Circumcision

Early Adverse Experiences May Lead to Abnormal Brain Development and Behavior

Self-destructive behavior in current society promotes a search for psychobiological factors underlying this epidemic. The brain of the newborn infant is particularly vulnerability to early adverse experiences, leading to abnormal development and behavior. Although several investigations have correlated newborn complications with abnormal adult behavior, our understanding of the underlying mechanisms remains rudimentary. Models of early experience, such as repetitive pain, sepsis, or maternal separation in rodents and other species have noted multiple alterations in the adult brain, correlated with specific behavioral types depending on the timing and nature of the adverse experience. The mechanisms mediating such changes in the newborn brain have remained largely unexplored. Maternal separation, sensory isolation (understimulation), and exposure to extreme or repetitive pain (overstimulation) may cause altered brain development. (Circumcision is described as an intervention with long-term neurobehavioral effects.) These changes promote two distinct behavioral types characterized by increased anxiety, altered pain sensitivity, stress disorders, hyperactivity/attention deficit disorder, leading to impaired social skills and patterns of self-destructive behavior. The clinical importance of these mechanisms lies in the prevention of early adverse experiences and effective treatment of newborn pain and stress.

Circumcision Associated with Sexual Difficulties in Men and Women

Circumcision is Associated with Premature Ejaculation

NOTE: There have been numerous articles in American media about claims that circumcision prevents HIV transmission. No mainstream media article has reported on an opposing view, as described in the findings of the following five medical articles.

Circumcision Decreases Sexual Pleasure

Circumcision Removes the Most Sensitive Parts of the Penis

Circumcision Policy Influenced by Psychosocial Factors

Circumcision is Not Good Health Policy

Pain, Trauma, Sexual, and Psychological Effects of Circumcision

Circumcision Results in Significant Loss of Erogenous Tissue

Circumcision Affects Sexual Behavior

Researchers Demonstrate Traumatic Effects of Circumcision

Circumcision Study Halted Due to Trauma

Circumcised Penis Requires More Care in Young Boys

Poll of Circumcised Men Reveals Harm

Psychological Effects of Circumcision Studied

Serious Consequences of Circumcision Trauma in Adult Men Clinically Observed

Anatomy and Function of the Foreskin Documented

Male Circumcision Affects Female Sexual Enjoyment

Male Circumcision and Psychosexual Effects Investigated

Surveys Reveal Adverse Sexual and Psychological Effects of Circumcision

Foreskin Reduces the Force Required for Penetration and Increases Comfort

Survey of Men Circumcised as Adults Shows Mixed Results



http://www.circumcision.org/studies.htm


Female Genital Mutilation Said To Be Widespread In Iraq's, Iran's Kurdistan



http://www.rferl.org/content/Female_Genital_Mutilation_Said_To_Be_Widespread_In_Iraqs_Irans_Kurdistan/1507621.html

[Czarek]

anesthesia does not provide benefits you think it does.

[Lifebringer]

That kind of pain might be why men forgot their feminine side. Women bare pain a little better because a birth pain is second only to death's last painful exhale.
That is why WAR is wrong. Because I've been listening to both parties in power for years. The right for choice, the right wants a law agaist abortion, but none address the horrible reality a girl or woman must make when this happens at an inopportuned time. Instead of the people realizing that God doesn't make mistakes, people do, and help the woman to educate herself while on the public poverty fund, to remove herself off the roles. This is the reason for so much stigmatism.
Every woman treasures that moment, and when they keep the child nurture it, love it, and teach it to play well with others, The powers that were train them to hate and kill dressing them in war fatigue uniform, and buying toy guns to learn to point them at people.
I can safely say, that I'm glad the femine is upon us, and I believe if a woman of middle class with intelligience like Elizabeth Warren were President, half the lies that were being told, wouldn't have been shoved under the Republican rug.

Until the skills and training are bought back(been gone since Reagan) the people have no way to raise all ships during a recovery. It is time for the stewards of this planet to take it to the next level and clean the waters like a fish tank and improve these slummy disgusting so called housing that drains the poor and tax payer dollars on utilities. More efficient technology that is cleaner is now available and the people who are stopping the progress on this, is us. Demand the green jobs training now from both parties, for jobs that will last for decades, with a demand right here at home converting and making them efficient. Women can lay insulation and caulk and use a power screw driver for bolting solar. Every little bit helps to lower the deficit and WE wouldn't need a LAHEAP for winter and summer to cool the elderly or poor because they would be on renewable energies from utility companies not using fossil fuel or coal.

Now this planet has been damaged to the point of "almost" force to end it. The planet has cried out and the people while Bush was in power in every nation on the planet, prayed for 'divine intervention' and gave permission in 2008/July. It is happening and like I said, the pain was spared a man throughout his life, except for what he gets during illness, a fight, or war wound, men simply haven't been prepared for pain as a women, both of the hert, and of the spirit and loss of a birthed life in the world. All choices like that are very difficult for a student or domestic violence women who are divorced and single parenting. Sex is a natural urge occurance between men and women and exploring teens. jBirth Control/Protection and teaching of being more virtuous of your body parts, the HIV warning was sounded long ago. The younger generation must have had the beats up too loud, because the % are going up.

Peace on Earth and goodwill towards thy neighbor.

[TigaHawk]

I think - the idea of circumsision came into play in a time when our hygene was definately not the best.

I can believe that alot of people would have - and did - fell ill due to poor hygne in that area. And it would have been painfull as hell too, an infection... there... ouch!

I think tho - as we've advanced our techologies, our hygne and living conditions have significantly improved.

The simple fact that every person has the ability to walk into a shower/bath, simply turn a nob on the wall and ding - hot clean water, with soap allways nearby - should have been the end of Circumcision. You shuold only ever get an infection there if you dont clean it! And if you dont clean it, then you kinda deserve it o_O As it would be in a way, self inflicted because of you're neglect.



Unfortunately, in this day and age - Hygne is not the main marketer for Circumcision. There's a myth that "Women prefer Circumcized". Well not realy a myth, there's just a hell of alot of uneducated women out there that believe anything they read on a dolly magazine cover.

There's alot of pressure put on boy's as they're growing up. If they're not circumzised - because of how the male urinals are - they will be noticed, they will be laughed at, teased and tormented about it. This allmost guarentees that when the boy grows up, is married and has a child on his own - he's going to choose to have the child circumsized purely because he's not going to want what happend to him happen to his son.

Then you have the assleep women saying yes purely because of the reasons i stated further above.

Viscious Cycle.


P.S - Just asked my other half about what he felt about his. He diddnt know he was circumsized, and i had to sit down and do an educational with google pictures before he'd believe me, oh dear ;)

[Snowbird]

This is really a very helpful article.

The Foreskin Is Necessary

By Paul M. Fleiss, MD, MPH

Western countries have no tradition of circumcision.

Circumcision started in America during the masturbation hysteria of the Victorian Era, when a few American doctors circumcised boys to punish them for masturbating. Victorian doctors knew very well that circumcision denudes, desensitizes, and disables the penis. Nevertheless, they were soon claiming that circumcision cured epilepsy, convulsions, paralysis, elephantiasis, tuberculosis, eczema, bed-wetting, hip-joint disease, fecal incontinence, rectal prolapse, wet dreams, hernia, headaches, nervousness, hysteria, poor eyesight, idiocy, mental retardation, and insanity.

It was only in the 1970s that a series of lawsuits forced hospitals to obtain parental consent to perform this contraindicated but highly profitable surgery. Circumcisers responded by inventing new "medical" reasons for circumcision in an attempt to scare parents into consenting.

But if circumcisers were really motivated by purely medical considerations, the procedure would have died out long ago, along with leeching, skull-drilling, and castration.

What Is the Foreskin?

http://www.mothersagainstcirc.org/fleiss.html

[KosmicKat]

http://www.circumcision.org/studies.htm


Circumcision harms the developing brain

I knew it!

[Carmody]

anesthesia does not provide benefits you think it does.

The so called 'conscious' mind (with it emphatically is NOT conscious) is shut off from the pressures of the cutting, but the mind below, the unconscious mind the superconscious mind, and the body still suffers.

And thus the break between the conscious mind and the higher self is even more broken and polarized from this act.

It is a specifically forced disconnect of the higher self from the avatar, done at a specific religiously dictated time in the early growth.

Never fear, though, you can reclaim this connection. Simply by finding the moment in the self when it happened, re-visit it...and re-wire the self around it. Reclaim your personal power, your full self.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Think of a religious structure created by a group of beings with higher knowledge, thousands of years ago.

Think of how they may have slightly genetically altered a group so they are capable of more drive, more pressure, and then....take that group and disconnect them from their source of energy so that energy can be driven by this inner control group..like a giant destructive truck, though time, to do their bidding.

Then instill in the group being driven like a vehicle..instill in them the deepest desire to group together, to stay together and never share their genes with anyone.

elevate them in their minds so they can be used as a group to push others around and move about, to control and crush others, other groups.

Instill in their religion and teachings that they have elevation over all others, that they are most favored, and the most important. And polarize it so hard, that the system itself rejects those who do not toe the line and those who do not, exit the system. So the system then self generates and regenerates and maintains concentration of the psychology, physiology and psychosomatic group stability that you desire.

Does this sound familiar?

If one is doing such a thing through a secret grouping so the hands on the controls, the steering wheel... can be passed down, or doing it through prolonged lifetimes, or secreted and secret information..well....does this sound familiar?

Hell, we do this with dogs and cattle, it is easily as possible to do this with people, it's no big deal. The generations of cycling are just a bit longer, for the realization of results. In human terms, it would simply be a slightly longer term plan, is all.

Open your mind to the realities of what is in front of you, no matter how uncomfortable it looks to be.

I could do this with dogs, birds, cats mice, etc..I could start tomorrow and be done and have a totally bizarre hybrid or shifted creature long before I die of old age.

The big problem with purebred dog breeding is exactly this issue and it happens in as little as 10 generations. Problems develop, too much of a shift or regression in the genetics. Entire new dog breeds can and do emerge in as little as 50 years, simply from someone creating a plan -- and getting on with it.

I even considered doing it once, to create highly intelligent dogs. To find and breed dogs specifically and only for intelligence.

So try and see your way to the reality of it. It can be done with humans---- and it has been done with humans.

[chancy]

It is a specifically forced disconnect of the higher self from the avatar, done at a specific religiously dictated time in the early growth.
Think of a religious structure created by a group of beings with higher knowledge, thousands of years ago.
Think of how they may have slightly genetically altered a group so they are capable of more drive, more pressure, and then....take that group and disconnect them from their source of energy so that energy can be driven by this inner control group..like a giant destructive truck, though time, to do their bidding.
Then instill in the group being driven like a vehicle..instill in them the deepest desire to group together, to stay together and never share their genes with anyone.
elevate them in their minds so they can be used as a group to push others around and move about, to control and crush others, other groups.
Instill in their religion and teachings that they have elevation over all others, that they are most favored, and the most important. And polarize it so hard, that the system itself rejects those who do not toe the line and those who do not, exit the system. So the system then self generates and regenerates and maintains concentration of the psychology, physiology and psychosomatic group stability that you desire.
Does this sound familiar?
.

Hello Everyone: I have just read the most bizarre and made up balony that I have ever read on Project Avalon! This is utter bs Carmody! There is NO WAY you can substantiate this and are making it up. At least my posts were the truth about circumcision BUT this is utter BS and you have to know it. IF you don't then shame on you.
I know how I got ragged on for telling the truth BUT no one is saying anything for this complete nonsense that you are spreading in this post. First you try and tell everyone that I am full of it and then put words in my mouth....now you are just plain lying. How do I know this is because of the following:
1. I wasn't cicumcised because of any religion or religious beliefs.
2. My parents were NOT circumcising me because of religious beliefs
3. My kids were NOT circumcised because of religious beliefs or any religion or to be part of the group as you have so eloquently put it.
4. As far as sharing my genes you are again off the mark. My genes have been shared with a woman so far outside my realm of life you are just spreading BS.
My wife is from another part of the planet. Another race. Another time. No belief system at all. Everyone in her family doesn't have circumcision. They never thought it was important even though 98% of the people in her country believe in circumcision for religion beliefs. Her family thinks it's not needed just like not getting your appendix out.
5 None of my family believes that they are elevated or better than anyone else. Our spirtitual beliefs have nothing to do with circumcision.

From what I have read in your posts you appear to be against religion and of course that is your right. You do not have the right to down right lie to people because the post I am referencing is just your own belief and nothing more. To you it's real but to people like myself who actually have had circumcision and my kids it's complete balony!
Why do I say it's balony is because everthing you have said in it is not true from my life and the truth I projected into my posts. IF you want to tell utter balony then tell people it's your opinion or just complete balony such as the above. You can certainly tell us your experiences with circumcision! OH, you don't have any. Why are you such an expert on circumcision since you have never experienced the benefits of it and don't believe in it?
Just for the record I am no expert on circumcision BUT know it's right for my family.
For anyone else they have to do what's right for them and there family.
Chancy

[Deedee]

Carmody says: and thus the break between the conscious mind and the higher self is even more broken and polarized from this act.

It is a specifically forced disconnect of the higher self from the avatar, done at a specific religiously dictated time in the early growth.

Oh my Carmody, it shows you are against Circumcision but the quote above IS going a bit overboard. It is up to people to make their own decision based upon their own research.. but what you say here is coming across as some kind of fear based dis-information... This is exactly where WE need to use our discernment and say now this is absolutely FALSE... Unless you have proof to back this up.. I'm not believing a word of it..

And as for Clancy's posting.. Nothing said from Carmody should be taken "Personally toward you or your beliefs"... Everyone is just voicing their opinion on this thread.

Happy Sunday! DD

[Carmody]

Your reactions are entirely predictable. Thus your dilemma.

[Deedee]

I will also add by saying this: There are many people on this planet "circumcised".. not by their own choice.. but nonetheless you stating that circumcision has cut them from their conscious self and their higher selves leaves them "where"? Into believing that they are somehow not whole? Come on.... There is absolutely no scientific evidence regarding your statement and I hope that people can see past your fear based disinformation.

[HURRITT ENYETO]

This act has Jewish origins, now bump up to concentration camps, which had thousands of men in them, and a handful of guards. Those men could not overwhelm a handful of guards....because.....they were literally from birth cut off from the energies that would allow it...it sounds bizzare and its a bit more in depth than that but......that's the brief summary.


Please tell me you are not saying that the reason the Jewish prisoners did not revolt is because they were Circumcised?

[chancy]

Your reactions are entirely predictable. Thus your dilemma.

Greetings everyone: First off I must say that I am not offended by ones opinions since we all have them. However I am offended as a truth seeker when people talk as though they are an expert and there is NO facts or for that matter anything to back up the claim(s).

Circumcision is simply a choice of everyone.

This is where I have the problem in that certain individuals and they definitely know who they are talk about topics that are more opinionated than truth or fact. People that read these posts could draw the wrong conclusion for themselves and may end up making the wrong choice or decision based on utter nonsense. Truth is one thing backed up by science or facts however complete speculation is always going to be called what it is and that's plain and simple opinion or even possibly false information for some cause that doesn't have anything to do with the subject at hand..
Please keep the topic going BUT tell the truth!

Chancy

[Heyoka_11]

Please keep the topic going BUT tell the truth!

chancy my friend, everyone has told the truth so far; the truth according to themselves.

Too many threads on this forum descend into slanging matches due to a failure to distinguish between personal truth (lower case), and Universal Truth (capital).

As obscure as another's truth may be, they are entitled to it, and have every right to express it, as long as they do so with respect. I fear that when you implore others to tell the truth, you are expecting them to express an opinion that agrees with your own. Please correct me if I am in error. It is just they way your posts come across.

Speaking in general now:

The only Universal Truth that should be considered here is that we are all free moral agents, and have every right to decide our own courses of action. Every parent has charge over their children, and can decide for themselves if circumcision is appropriate. It matters not if we "know" in our heart of hearts that we are right, and another is wrong. We can express our opinions to another, but we must respect their God given right to do as they choose. They alone will live the consequences of their decisions, be they ultimately right or wrong. And yes, this extends to a parents right to circumcise their child, even if, ultimately, harm is caused. They are the parent, they have every right. If anyone finds that hard to swallow, tough! Grow up!

I spent too many years, and wasted far too much energy, feeling personally offended simply because someone else "failed" to agree with my opinions. I would take it as an attack on my "integrity", and heaven knows I would go on the offensive. What an utter distraction! Nothing more than ego.

Best wishes to all,

Tony.

[chancy]

Please keep the topic going BUT tell the truth!
chancy my friend, everyone has told the truth so far; the truth according to themselves.
As obscure as another's truth may be, they are entitled to it, and have every right to express it, as long as they do so with respect. I fear that when you implore others to tell the truth, you are expecting them to express an opinion that agrees with your own. Please correct me if I am in error. It is just they way your posts come across
Tony.

Hello Heyoka_11: Thanks for the lesson in truth. Actually truth from personal experience is more truth than not agreeing with the other person simply because they believe it's wrong and sadistic.
I knew from the get go that being flamed would be on the side of those that agree with circumcision. I can speak from experience having been circumcised myself and also from asking my kids how they feel and if there were any psychological effects of circumcision.
The answer was a firm NO.
How that goes to me feeling threatened or pushing someones buttons is beyond my scope of reality.
When someone blatantly admits that they do not agree with circumcision but has not or will not enter into their realm then I know that they are against it and the only truth that they have in regards to circumcision is from someone else.or none at all.

Now speaking in general

Everyone has a right to their own opinion(s) BUT not at the expense of truth. When a persons truth is just babble and has nothing to do with the topic then I will always stand up to that.
My personal opinion does not have to be coddled since I am not on an ego trip. Only a trip of finding the truth. The truth is that as far as my family is concerned there is NO psychological effects of circumcision.
End of story.
Now anyone and everyone that wants to agree and disagree can have the floor since my views have been true and nothing but true as a proponent of circumcision.
Good luck everyone in finding circumcision for yourself or family members. It's truly a gift for our family.
Chancy

[ThePythonicCow]

Hello Everyone: I have just read the most bizarre and made up balony that I have ever read on Project Avalon! This is utter bs Carmody! There is NO WAY you can substantiate this and are making it up. At least my posts were the truth about circumcision BUT this is utter BS and you have to know it. IF you don't then shame on you.
When someone comes on with a light touch of disbelief in what another person said, I suspect a failure to communicate with the other person.

When someone comes on with a strongly outraged sense of disbelief, I suspect a failure to communicate with one's self.

(Paul the bovine amateur shrink here; not Paul the admin :) :cow: :). And no, I didn't even sleep in a Holiday Inn last night.)

[Omni]

The truth is that as far as my family is concerned there is NO psychological effects of circumcision.
End of story.

I respect your opinion. But you have accused people of speculating, yet do so yourself right there. How do you know every last detail about your programming in saying that? I don't think you could, especially not programmign from your childhood that you were not self aware of.

How could you know what effect it had on your energy field? Not saying it has one for sure that is noticeable.... But how could you know when you only experience one side of the coin? You haven't known anything other than circumcision. So how could you know the difference? Obviously it doesn't make people into bad people automatically or anything.


I can speak from experience having been circumcised myself and also from asking my kids how they feel and if there were any psychological effects of circumcision.

I have to recognize the chance of you having a bias, because most people don't want to recognize themselves being in any sort of flawed scenario in thought or body(unless it's in their face irrefutable).

Of course circumcised people will think it had no effect in many circumstances. Not many people are willing to see flaws in themselves much(not applying that trait to you).

And often people's programming is a mystery to them. It's not self evident so much a lot of the time. So asking a child if it had any psychological effect on them isn't sound in determining if it did. The psychological effects would be before they could detect it, and if they exist would be very hard to detect if they did exist. They aren't listed in text in some /diagnostic mind tap. lol

I'm not saying it DOES have a psychological effect long term. I'm not saying a bias surely clouds your judgment because most would not be open to some flaw in them, before they deny it strongly. And I'm not saying you are wrong.

I just see you doing what you accuse others of, and see possibilities that could lead your conclusion to falsity.

You wont find any flaming from me for thinking circumcision had no bad effects. However you may find a debate.

I'm not convinced on either side. I however can debate either side if I see someone bring potential flaws to the discussion though.

Peace

[NancyV]

My decision to not have my son circumcised when he was born in 1980 came from doing lots of reading for several months on the subject. I didn't have a computer in 1980 so it took more work to research. Before I did this research I saw nothing wrong with circumcision and never really thought about it much one way or the other. In other words I was ignorant on the subject. I accepted that it was the normal thing to do. It took me a while to understand and accept that it could be harmful for a baby but I persisted in reading as much as I could find both for and against circumcision before my son was born.

The logical conclusion I had to reach after all my reading (unless I wanted to remain in denial) was that it was most likely detrimental to a child to subject it to so much pain at birth or when very young. It also didn't seem logical to me that human males would be born with a foreskin if there was no purpose for it. Could it be a mistake? Perhaps being born with EARS is also a mistake. They sort of just stick out there and I can't see much purpose for them! (oops, was that sarcastic?) LOL..

Anyway, my 31 year old son has never had a problem with cleanliness or with being taunted by other males who were circumcised, even when he was in the US Army. When his son was born 4 years ago he was also NOT circumcised. It seems that most people circumcise their sons because of tradition, religion or out of ignorance of ALL the facts, thinking they are doing the right thing. I don't really care if others circumcise their sons even though I think it's a rather barbaric tradition/practice and potentially harmful... physically, emotionally, mentally and spiritually.

[chancy]

The truth is that as far as my family is concerned there is NO psychological effects of circumcision.
End of story.

I respect your opinion. But you have accused people of speculating, yet do so yourself right there. How do you know every last detail about your programming in saying that? I don't think you could, especially not programmign from your childhood that you were not self aware of.

Good Day Avalonians: I must give a rebuttal since it's the right thing to do! I also respect everyone elses opinion however I am not giving an opinion. I lived through it. Have studied it. Asked lots of questions about it. Discussed it with people who have and haven't been circumsised and unanimously everyone agreed that it does not cause any psychological effects. I would say that is much more than an opinion or speculating. Of course everyone is welcomed to their own opinion whether it agrees with me or not since that's what makes life exciting!
I am very aware of myself and programming. How would anyone but me know what my programming is but me?


How could you know what effect it had on your energy field? Not saying it has one for sure that is noticeable.... But how could you know when you only experience one side of the coin? You haven't known anything other than circumcision. So how could you know the difference? Obviously it doesn't make people into bad people automatically or anything.

I know because I ask people who have not been circumsised. I know because I trust their words. I believe them just like they believe me when I tell them that I and my kids have had NO psychological effects from circumcision. From what I have read on this thread it does make you a bad person according to the nay sayers. If you kindly read from the beginning of this thread I am pretty much alone except for a couple others that agree with circumcision



I can speak from experience having been circumcised myself and also from asking my kids how they feel and if there were any psychological effects of circumcision.
I have to recognize the chance of you having a bias, because most people don't want to recognize themselves being in any sort of flawed scenario in thought or body(unless it's in their face irrefutable).

Of course I am biased when I know the truth! I am living as a circumcised adult and don't have any problems with that. I also don't have any problems with people that don't agree with it and don't practice circumcision for whatever reason. That is their choice....
IF I was flawed I would certainly know it because I know my flaws and like some of these flaws and try to change other flaws. I hope everyone tries to be a better person.
I also know that getting circumcised is not going to change that person or anything about that person. This is from experience of course.
You see if I have to believe anyone it will be someone that has experienced that particular procedure. I certainly am not going ot believe the naysayers because they are usually naysaying about most things. From my life experiences the naysayers love to disagree. My life is extremely positive and this is why I am more than happy to talk about a subject that most are extremely scared to death of for some reason?!


Of course circumcised people will think it had no effect in many circumstances. Not many people are willing to see flaws in themselves much(not applying that trait to you).

As I mentioned in the above paragraph I have lots of flaws. That's what makes us human. I also know when something is not a flaw and circumcision is definitely not a flaw since it's only skin. I have had more skin ripped off my hand while working than they clipped for the circumcision. Does that mean my hand is flawed? I certainly don't think so. BUT alot of the comments on this thread would suggest that it is now that the skin has been ripped off.
You can certainly apply that trait to me since I am as human as the rest of the people here. I also believe in circumcision. That seems to be where we part company for whatever reason I don't know BUT it makes alot of people terrified.



I'm not saying it DOES have a psychological effect long term. I'm not saying a bias surely clouds your judgment because most would not be open to some flaw in them, before they deny it strongly. And I'm not saying you are wrong.

I am saying it DOES NOT have any effect on the psychology of that person. That's why I am saying it truthfully because I am circumcised.
If it was a flaw then it would have showed up in my life already. It hasn't and I am pretty sure it won't since I am very happy with my life. Just like everyone I have made mistakes but happiness comes with knowing you can see your flaws and change them. I would not change being circumcised.



I just see you doing what you accuse others of, and see possibilities that could lead your conclusion to falsity.

For me being circumcised did not lead me to a false conclusion and I am not like the others since I am one of the few who admits I am happy I got circumcised. Telling the truth is not an opinion. An opinion is simply what one thinks whether by guessing or by following someone elses ideas. I am using my own experience and no one elses.


You wont find any flaming from me for thinking circumcision had no bad effects. However you may find a debate.

I certainly welcome the debate because whether circumcision is right or wrong who am I to judge anyone else for having it done or not having it done. I am only using myself as the ginny pig.


I'm not convinced on either side. I however can debate either side if I see someone bring potential flaws to the discussion though.
Peace

The only one that can convince you is yourself. All I am trying to do is give one positive case for being circumcised. Actually a few more with my kids! But I will be the subject and leave my kids out of it since they are also very happy with their parents decision. It's not for everyone and everyone has to make their own decisions for their circumstance(s).
Thanks for the well thought out post. It's appreciated.
Good luck in finding the truth............
Chancy

[soulsinger]

Though I come from a Jewish family, I never had strong opinions about circumcision, one way or the other. However, when I was pregnant with my son, I learned that my husband had VERY strong feelings that circumcision is wrong. He believes that every individual has the right to choose whether they will modify their body-- and that parents do not have the right to choose that for their children. So I deferred to his judgment.

Several years later, I was present for the circumcisions of three other baby boys. One, who received locally injected anesthesia, was surprisingly calm and easy. The other two, who received absolutely NO anesthesia, were frantically screaming... it was the most horrific thing I'd ever seen or heard. So I can certainly say that, if parents DO choose circ for their sons, they need to INSIST on proper anesthesia. There is NO excuse for causing a baby to suffer so.

As my son has grown, I have become more and more sure that our decision to leave him intact was the right one for him and for us. I don't really know all the answers about what is 'right' or 'wrong' concerning circumcision... but there are two aspects I consider problematic: the inability of a man to make a free-will choice about his own body (if his parents have him circ'ed at birth), and the infliction of unbearable pain on a non-anesthetized infant (as most circs in the U.S. are).

I have respect for the traditions of Jewish culture. I understand that this decision carries a heavy weight, because, by the consideration of most of the Jewish community, if you're a male and uncircumcised, you're not a Jew. Now, some Jewish parents are choosing to reject this tradition. For me, it was easier because I am not religious and my husband is not Jewish. We never intended to raise our son in the Jewish faith, and we have never been concerned whether our son would marry a Jewish woman.

As far as this whole idea that circumcision is a plot by the ruling elite to disconnect men from their masculinity, spirituality, and will.... well, I guess I'd need to see specific proof to believe that. Something like, private letters among royals or other powerful elites, discussing their efforts to promote circumcision and enslave the men. Or secret documents with the 'hidden' purpose of circumcision spelled out.

[toothpick]

Hi everyone, great thread Omniverse.
This is a volitile subject, obviously, from the posts.
Snowbird mentoned that forskins are used to manufacture Interferon, i did not know that.
In 2000 i was put through a 48week drug trial of, Interferon, for liver cancer.
Had to give myself injections in the stomach area everyday, and alot of pills to go with it.
Long story, short, I,m still kickng.

Circumcision around my famiily, was, always a decision made medically.
I had two uncles from opposite sides of the family.
They both suffered from terrible infectons and my favorite uncle had to go a couple of times a year and have his penis razored open so he could urinate, apologies for being so graphic.
Could you imagine getting cut regularly, and the older he got the worse it would get.
Our thinkng was, get it done once.
I,m just saying, there is always two or three sides to every story, everyone,s situation is different.
Also, i am 100% behind the thought the no baby anywhere should ever feel pain or stress of anykind for any reason period.

toothpick

[Carmody]

The Cathars were right.

http://www.goldenageproject.org.uk/genius.php

[MiguelQ]

Well I wouldn't like to have a skin enclosing my penis... Thanks God I born with it free. Some guys don't need to do it.what name is called for those that aren't circumcised but don't have the skin almost closing the *head*

[Carmody]

Though I come from a Jewish family, I never had strong opinions about circumcision, one way or the other. However, when I was pregnant with my son, I learned that my husband had VERY strong feelings that circumcision is wrong. He believes that every individual has the right to choose whether they will modify their body-- and that parents do not have the right to choose that for their children. So I deferred to his judgment.

Several years later, I was present for the circumcisions of three other baby boys. One, who received locally injected anesthesia, was surprisingly calm and easy. The other two, who received absolutely NO anesthesia, were frantically screaming... it was the most horrific thing I'd ever seen or heard. So I can certainly say that, if parents DO choose circ for their sons, they need to INSIST on proper anesthesia. There is NO excuse for causing a baby to suffer so.

As my son has grown, I have become more and more sure that our decision to leave him intact was the right one for him and for us. I don't really know all the answers about what is 'right' or 'wrong' concerning circumcision... but there are two aspects I consider problematic: the inability of a man to make a free-will choice about his own body (if his parents have him circ'ed at birth), and the infliction of unbearable pain on a non-anesthetized infant (as most circs in the U.S. are).

I have respect for the traditions of Jewish culture. I understand that this decision carries a heavy weight, because, by the consideration of most of the Jewish community, if you're a male and uncircumcised, you're not a Jew. Now, some Jewish parents are choosing to reject this tradition. For me, it was easier because I am not religious and my husband is not Jewish. We never intended to raise our son in the Jewish faith, and we have never been concerned whether our son would marry a Jewish woman.

As far as this whole idea that circumcision is a plot by the ruling elite to disconnect men from their masculinity, spirituality, and will.... well, I guess I'd need to see specific proof to believe that. Something like, private letters among royals or other powerful elites, discussing their efforts to promote circumcision and enslave the men. Or secret documents with the 'hidden' purpose of circumcision spelled out.

ok, do we need evidence there? How about in other places, not in other situations? (just asking, as a counterpoint, not accusing.) I thank you for showing how modern techniques have removed most of the created mental and thus permanent wiring damage and emotional shift.

2000 years of damage. Which is still going on in the majority of circumcision cases.

I'm thinking that, potentially... some have not looked too closely at the evidence. Or considered what type of mental damage is done to a male child when operated on without anesthetic in one of if not THE most base defining point of their character? How it will be damaged (not potentially, this aspect has already been covered, the damage IS done to the male child). How the emotional and thus the base wiring of the child is damaged?

Now, people are smart, some are brutal -and cunning. Vicious, even.

Read Leviticus. That was the bargain stuck, under extreme duress and force. The mark of a sociopath. A brutish one.

Thus my statement, that from what I can read and understand.....the Cathars where right.

Which is why they where forcefully eliminated (mass murder), very powerfully so...to virtually the last person.

I bring the subject up because it must be covered, it must be aired.

The connection between damage to the growing mind of the child, the freezing and shift of the emotional and mental growth, the block of the mind, all that MUST be aired.

By it's very nature of being a concept and thought, a person who was circumcised as a child, with no anesthetic... will be very uncomfortable with the idea that their circumcision was a direct attack against their developing psyche, as a newborn.

By it's very nature, as a subject, the parent who allowed and carried forth such an act would be doubly uncomfortable with such a thought.

By it's very nature, someone who is ensconced in such a religious structure would also be highly uncomfortable with such a subject.

We are talking about psychological pruning. An emotional block, religion creating a form of lobotomizing for the purpose of robotizing. That's what I'm saying.

Other religions are controlled, but this one, this aspect is scared, harmless and off limits? I don't think so.


If you want the literature for it, well, ....get me the literature for 9/11....hhhmm...or for the current attack on Libya.. The evidence trails are of similar type and nature.

Then we get into the problem of not being capable of realizing this..... as the wiring for that in the mind, as a differential....simply isn't there. The mind bounces off of it, especially for those directly involved.

Besides the deep desire within to never go there, regarding the psychology of ridding the self of awful events.

This is psychology 101, regarding trauma. How it drives the individual, unseen.

So the subject will never be polite, but it must be raised and it must be phrased in the shape of what it is, what it results in ----for the child, which becomes the adult, with the hidden component...... a good part of what is driving them.

Driving their baseline psychology--which is emotional in nature, which steers their thought formation-and expression of physicality -into the world. As the research on the mind development and psychology has shown to be true. No matter how ugly it feels.

And from what we know about religions and the hidden hand, specifically that of the religion of Judea, regarding YAHWEH......... it comes to this.

The subject must be raised, it must be aired and it must be phrased this way. The evidence and the results presuppose guilt, not innocence, in this act and custom -and it's history and context. Thus the phrasing and direction.

[Flash]

I understand that Jewish boys are circumcised very early after birth and that the traumatism goes straight in the unconscious. What I do not understand is why do Moslems do get cicumscised between the age of 8 and 12 years old? In fact, at the same age about as the Ber Mitzvah in the Jewish religion.

At 8 or 12, the pain inflicted is very conscious and is related to male hood in the boys' mind and from the society around him, becoming a men. And there is a whole party around it at that age. What is the difference in impact then? There is certainly still some kind of disconnect when such pain is inflicted (although nowaday it is all done under analgesics). Could it be similar to cultures where you razor cut your arms or face to be part of the male group for example. However, because it is related to sexual organ, which in turn is related to one of the most powerfull energy center before entering the spiritual realm, what makes it different then, as an impact? And why 12 years of age versus 12 days of age?

[Carmody]

I understand that Jewish boys are circumcised very early after birth and that the traumatism goes straight in the unconscious. What I do not understand is why do Moslems do get cicumscised between the age of 8 and 12 years old? In fact, at the same age about as the Ber Mitzvah in the Jewish religion.

At 8 or 12, the pain inflicted is very conscious and is related to male hood in the boys' mind and from the society around him, becoming a men. And there is a whole party around it at that age. What is the difference in impact then? There is certainly still some kind of disconnect when such pain is inflicted (although nowaday it is all done under analgesics). Could it be similar to cultures where you razor cut your arms or face to be part of the male group for example. However, because it is related to sexual organ, which in turn is related to one of the most powerfull energy center before entering the spiritual realm, what makes it different then, as an impact? And why 12 years of age versus 12 days of age?

Well, both religions treat women like property, in the most basic sense and in history. A sweeping statement, but too much truth in even the mildest sense or context.

The suspicion is, with regard to the stories regarding ENLIL and ENKI. That Enki created the Judaic religion and Enlil took it over, and Enki interjected at times to mediate the interference...thus the two faces of Yahweh. And that The Muslim faith was potentially a sole Enlil creation, is one take.

It creates a continual conscious mind influence into and at/toward sexuality, regarding constant stimulation of the head of the penis.

Imagine the clitoris and vaginal walls of the female being constantly stimulated, and you will get the point.

Thus the wiring is shifted.

Extreme trauma, then constant stimulation. The conscious stimulation slowly goes below the conscious mind (like rings and earrings for girls) but it never disappears, and never stops it's influence, nay, it reinforces and shifts the mind to one possessed and pointed at all times for sexual connotations and polarizations of all thoughts and emotions. But with trauma being the underlying component of origin.

Imagine a 5 year old child having his family slaughtered in front of him. how would this skew his psychology?

how about something that is more potent and permanent? That cannot be buried, as it is constantly stimulated?

The child is raised with this psychology, so it is difficult to understand how it could be any different for their inside view or for any outside observer.

They have been normalized with regard to how they think and see the self, how they integrate, and how others see them, but it still sits there, alive and permanent.

[Flash]

If I understand your point Carmody, this is almost exactly as excision of girls in Africa. Very big painful trauma (from all reports I have read/viewed), leading to decrease trust in adults and mothers forever to have put them through it, and, on the contraty to boy' circumcision, forever absence of easyr sexual stimulation (clitoris instead of vagina). Sexual organs = pain (they often have more pain later on when giving birth or making love, the excision opening up, etc) in their body. They grow into teenager hood like this and never really understand what other women are talking about when telling why they enjoy sex and orgasm. Pain as well for submission...... this makes me sad.

Same thing would happen to boy, but at the reverse, pain and sexual stimulation together. No wonder it is more difficult to understand women needs then.

As for birth traumas and very early ones, I can testify it remains with you your whole life, unannouced, unconscious, unless something trigger the body memory. My twin sister was dying right after I was born (she finally survived) and I took it for myself when the medical staff announced they would have to dismember her to get her out. In me, everything was dying as I was put aside, iin the cold, for the emergency going on. Because I was already born, they were going to save my mom for me, instead of my sister. We had a smart doctors who found an ingenious way to do things and we all survived. But the stress and anxiety about survival remained all my life. No need to say that my sister and I are both very combative in life. I am just truly starting to understand the impact on our psyche at a quite late age.

[Whiskey_Mystic]

The bottom line for me is that circumcision is a traumatic act of sexual mutilation done to beings without their consent. Without consent. Without consent.

[Carmody]

This post was pulled from the astrology thread, even though it covers both. The topic, on second thought, is too hot to pollute the astrology thread.

What it says is very difficult to deal with, although it contains no factual errors, and no errors regarding astrology, or it's history:

Circumcision in the Judaic/Abrahamic system was to be enacted on the male child on the 8th day after birth.

360 degrees in the zodiac, 29.53 days in the lunar cycle, and thus each day is equal to 12.2 degrees of moon position.

8 days times 12.2, gets you to 97.6 degrees change in the moon's position.....when the act is committed to the male child.

This results an a very solid chance of a 'square' aspect of emotional consideration (moon position change of 90 degrees, a square) of immense impact being imparted to the male child.

This, as a form of permanent damage to the developing psyche, and thus the final result as a human being, regarding their emotional actions and reactions.

A powerful square in astrology can be likened to being hit from the side by a truck, a sideways motion.T-boned, they call it, in vehicular accident parlay.

An immensely powerful square, affecting sexuality, kundalini, source dimensional access, and emotional design parameters.... via the damage of the sex organs, is very much a case where one could be seen as having been emotionally t-boned into a shape that never should have existed. A permanent victim-predator reactive emotional fear/pain complex, where one could never properly reach the origins of the problem, as they happen before conscious memory is even possible to form..but emotions are very much alive and beginning to form the mind itself.

BTW, the Judaic ruling caste and class were excellent astrologers, and this never would have escaped their attention.


As for the psychology of the situation, this is speculation based on considerations in psychology and neural development:

As well as an emotional separation from comfort, safety, and mother. This can and does generally stimulate the intellectual design parameters early but it also colors the system of development, in many ways. Those are open to speculation, but may very well be centered around distance from females, distance from deeper emotional states, and a racing mind from the inner turmoil created around considerations of said turmoil. A mind that might be more linear, as well, and less inclined toward the soft arts. Intelligent ---but cunning-linear.

A major point is aspects of 'Stockholm Syndrome' (identifying with your captors) and group mind thinking. Ie, people of like mind being males of like mind and similar damage from their trials and tribulations surround this event. This would be almost subliminal in nature, due to the shaping and placement of the originating event in the given life.

Overall the event and it's effects would vary, but the trail of it would be evident in the overall thrust of the males raised in this given environment.

Basically, all the things I've said previously. The event as a moment of shared trauma...over time...shapes the group.

[christian]

I had played with the thought of getting circumcised since my teenage years. Not because of medical necessity, but because I experienced having a foreskin as a nuisance, an unnecessary separating thingy. It would affect my whole body/energy in a positive way when it would be back for some periods of time. Of course I'd have to pull it back, which would always only last for so long.

Now in the recent months this topic came at me synchronistically through a couple of friends, and after I hesitated for more than 10 years—mostly because of the cost of the operation and because I'd be kind of incapacitated for a while—I was operated exactly a month ago.

Prior to the operation I read a lot about the pro's and con's, I also read this thread with great interest. I agree with the sentiment that it shouldn't be done to children against their will, and I find that idea interesting that it has a special detrimental effect if you do it at the 6th day after birth.

Anyways, my gut feeling was it would be good to do it, and so I went with it. I can honestly say that it was a great decision. I don't feel worse off at all, neither energetically nor in any other way. Quite to the contrary, I feel much more comfortable within myself and when being with a woman.

Of course I can only speak for myself. Maybe this would not be the right thing for you at all. All I'm saying is, it can be a very good thing to do, just listen to your gut feeling as always.

In fact, I had a dream the other night about the operation, was the only dream about it so far. It was like a comic, the doctor had been quite a funny character and I was really amused by that dream, even though he seemed like a crazy professor when he was wielding his scalpel. :biggrin1:

During the actual operation I was only partly anesthetized and had been talking with him all the time about all the things that I find interesting in life, he seemed to be quite happy with hearing all these stories. The setting of it all felt very right, the place, the doctor, the surrounding. And one friend who is kind of connected to the synchronicities that led me to this called me right in the second when I got out of the door after the operation, I felt like in a movie... He didn't know I was there, almost nobody did.

[Tangri]

I have two sons both are NOT circumcised because I researched it ahead of time. This is unnecessary trauma set deep in the mind where there are no words just experience perpetrated on BABIES, usually without pain killers.
They scream. Let's think which part of your body you would like cut off today. Even back in the late 1980s 50% of parents were deciding not to circumcise theirs sons. Imagine if we decided to start slicing our daughters. I said no!
westhill

You think you are not already making hole on them?
yeZ1J2D3JfA

7xuMDOVxuhY

p3mov1LHYLA

You can't see the forest if you are looking only one tree.

Damage can be curtained or healed by neighbor audience.

[Flash]

Myths about Circumcision You Likely Believe
CIrcumcision does great harm to babies
Published on September 11, 2011 by Darcia Narvaez, Ph.D. in Moral Landscapes

NOTE: Primary author is Lillian Dell'Aquila Cannon (see her blog)

When I was pregnant with my first child, I just thought that circumcision was what you did, no big deal, and that every man was circumcised. Then one day I saw a picture of a baby being circumcised, and everything changed. Just one tiny, grainy photo was enough to make me want to know more, and the more I knew, the worse it got. It turns out, circumcision really is a big deal.

Part 1 - Circumcision Surgery Myths

Myth 1: They just cut off a flap of skin.

Reality check: Not true. The foreskin is half of the penis's skin, not just a flap. In an adult man, the foreskin is 15 square inches of skin. In babies and children, the foreskin is adhered to the head of the penis with the same type of tissue that adheres fingernails to their nail beds. Removing it requires shoving a blunt probe between the foreskin and the head of the penis and then cutting down and around the whole penis. Check out these photos: http://www.drmomma.org/2011/08/intact-or-circumcised-significant.html

Myth 2: It doesn't hurt the baby.

Reality check: Wrong. In 1997, doctors in Canada did a study to see what type of anesthesia was most effective in relieving the pain of circumcision. As with any study, they needed a control group that received no anesthesia. The doctors quickly realized that the babies who were not anesthetized were in so much pain that it would be unethical to continue with the study. Even the best commonly available method of pain relief studied, the dorsal penile nerve block, did not block all the babies' pain. Some of the babies in the study were in such pain that they began choking and one even had a seizure (Lander 1997).

Myth 3: My doctor uses anesthesia.

Reality check: Not necessarily. Most newborns do not receive adequate anesthesia. Only 45% of doctors who do circumcisions use any anesthesia at all. Obstetricians perform 70% of circumcisions and are least likely to use anesthesia - only 25% do. The most common reasons why they don't? They didn't think the procedure warranted it, and it takes too long (Stang 1998). A circumcision with adequate anesthesia takes a half-hour - if they brought your baby back sooner, he was in severe pain during the surgery.

Myth 4: Even if it is painful, the baby won't remember it.

Reality check: The body is a historical repository and remembers everything. The pain of circumcision causes a rewiring of the baby's brain so that he is more sensitive to pain later (Taddio 1997, Anand 2000). Circumcision also can cause post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD), depression, anger, low self-esteem and problems with intimacy (Boyle 2002, Hammond 1999, Goldman 1999). Even with a lack of explicit memory and the inability to protest - does that make it right to inflict pain? Ethical guidelines for animal research whenever possible* - do babies deserve any less?
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Myth 5: My baby slept right through it.

Reality check: Not possible without total anesthesia, which is not available. Even the dorsal penile nerve block leaves the underside of the penis receptive to pain. Babies go into shock, which though it looks like a quiet state, is actually the body's reaction to profound pain and distress. Nurses often tell the parents "He slept right through it" so as not to upset them. Who would want to hear that his or her baby was screaming in agony?

Myth 6: It doesn't cause the baby long-term harm.

Reality check: Incorrect. Removal of healthy tissue from a non-consenting patient is, in itself, harm (more on this point later). Circumcision has an array of risks and side effects. There is a 1-3% complication rate during the newborn period alone (Schwartz 1990). Here is a short list potential complications.

Meatal Stenosis: Many circumcised boys and men suffer from meatal stenosis. This is a narrowing of the urethra which can interfere with urination and require surgery to fix.

Adhesions. Circumcised babies can suffer from adhesions, where the foreskin remnants try to heal to the head of the penis in an area they are not supposed to grow on. Doctors treat these by ripping them open with no anesthesia.

Buried penis. Circumcision can lead to trapped or buried penis - too much skin is removed, and so the penis is forced inside the body. This can lead to problems in adulthood when the man does not have enough skin to have a comfortable erection. Some men even have their skin split open when they have an erection. There are even more sexual consequences, which we will address in a future post.

Infection. The circumcision wound can become infected. This is especially dangerous now with the prevalence of hospital-acquired multi-drug resistant bacteria.

Death. Babies can even die of circumcision. Over 100 newborns die each year in the USA, mostly from loss of blood and infection (Van Howe 1997 & 2004, Bollinger 2010).

Isn't it time to think more carefully about whether we should be circumcising our boys?

But, you say, aren't there important health benefits? See the next post.

* http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/moral-landscapes/201109/myths-about-circumcision-you-likely-believe

Interesting read. I will find more on psychological aspects.

[Flash]

Studies show that circumcision is significantly painful and traumatic. Some infants do not cry because they go into shock. After circumcision infants exhibit behavioral changes, and there are disruptions in mother-child bonding. Changes in pain response of circumcised infants have been demonstrated in baby boys at six months of age, evidence of lasting neurological effects and a symptom of post-traumatic stress disorder. Anesthetics, if used, do not eliminate circumcision pain. Circumcision also has about two dozen surgical risks including, in rare cases, death. Some doctors and nurses refuse to perform or assist with circumcisions because of ethical considerations.

Long-term harm is also a consideration, but circumcised American researchers also typically avoid the discomfort of studying the sexual and psychological harm (e.g., erectile dysfunction) associated with circumcision. This pro-circumcision bias in American medicine reflects the pro-circumcision bias in American culture. The United States is the only country in the world that circumcises many of its male infants for non-religious reasons. Europeans think we’re crazy.

Americans generally ignore the fact that the loss of the foreskin matters. Most circumcised American men (and doctors) do not know what they are missing. Based on recent reports, circumcision removes up to one-half of the erogenous tissue on the penile shaft. The adult foreskin is a double layer, a movable sleeve equivalent to approximately twelve square inches. Medical studies have shown that the foreskin protects the penile head, enhances sexual pleasure, and facilitates intercourse.http://intactnews.org/node/107/1312500322/circumcision-harm-and-psychological-factors-ignored

Although I could say "what do I know about circumcision and the pain of it" and it would be a right comment, I still find these readings nevertheless interesting.

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I have two sons both are NOT circumcised because I researched it ahead of time. This is unnecessary trauma set deep in the mind where there are no words just experience perpetrated on BABIES, usually without pain killers.
They scream. Let's think which part of your body you would like cut off today. Even back in the late 1980s 50% of parents were deciding not to circumcise theirs sons. Imagine if we decided to start slicing our daughters. I said no!
westhill

You think you are not already making hole on them?
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You can't see the forest if you are looking only one tree.

Damage can be curtained or healed by neighbor audience.

I am not for that either, but I can at least tell you that the kid does not go it shock where he cannot even cry, just space out, leave its body, like in circumcision.

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Good for you Christian, this was your adult choice, with anesthesia as to not suffer too much. this is most often not the case with children and new born.

[kat]

Came across this article today. Mother arrested for failure to circumcise son;
http://naturalsociety.com/mother-arrested-and-jailed-for-failure-to-circumcise-4-year-old-son/

[Akasha]

OnisionSpeaks on the subject (maybe this should have gone in the 'Theories of the Deep....' thread) :

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[Ted]

My late father in law, who was a doctor, had himself circumcised at the age of 35. He was always very happy with that decision, saying it was more hygienic and easier maintenance. No regrets whatsoever.
Just thought I would pass that along...