The fine balance of skepticism and open mindedness(a chat log from PA chat)

[Omni]

I will start by posting the chat log that lead me to make this thread. I had wanted to make a thread with this title and subject for a while, i might have posted something about it but not quite as good as this post most likely(by my own opinion of the concepts in it, i dont care if they were by me or not).


23:25:41 ‹Omniverse› it pays to be on skeptic forums too[re-iterated with more clarity, forums with a healthy amount of skeptics AND believers etc if those labels are even valid, of course everyone is skeptical of some things and believers in others]. to see their view[the skeptics]. not eat it up, because they are often idiots[at discerning reality, not as human beings]. but it does have value. have to have careful discernment with [conspiracy theories] because there is so much subversion and infiltration
21/08/2011 23:25:46 ‹Omniverse› gotta search both sides
21/08/2011 23:25:47 ‹DoubleHelix› yes they've rigged the trajectory
21/08/2011 23:26:09 ‹StateOfTheHeart› i agree omni - im trying to some skeptical information/evidence
21/08/2011 23:26:22 ‹StateOfTheHeart› i guess i should go to one of their forums, but i dont really want to
21/08/2011 23:26:33 ‹StateOfTheHeart› trying to get some*
21/08/2011 23:26:35 ‹Omniverse› well... theres one thats not a skeptic forum
21/08/2011 23:26:40 ‹Omniverse› i dont mean like randi.
21/08/2011 23:26:51 ‹Omniverse› i mean like alien-ufos. where there is like 60% skeptics
21/08/2011 23:26:55 ‹DoubleHelix› randi?
21/08/2011 23:26:59 ‹Omniverse› on avalon there is like 2% skeptics
21/08/2011 23:27:06 ‹StateOfTheHeart› ya, lol
21/08/2011 23:27:17 ‹DoubleHelix› "be skeptical but don't close your mind"
21/08/2011 23:27:17 ‹Omniverse› i think its randi. the place that says they will give a million dollars to someone who can remote view what is in the box
21/08/2011 23:27:33 ‹Omniverse› great quote
21/08/2011 23:27:41 ‹Omniverse› there is a careful balance of skepticism and open mindedness
21/08/2011 23:27:54 ‹Omniverse› and its a hard one to master... not many have it perfect.
21/08/2011 23:28:04 ‹Omniverse› i dont think i have it perfect yet but im not in control of that so much
21/08/2011 23:28:11 ‹Omniverse› im close tho
21/08/2011 23:28:20 ‹DoubleHelix› all about balance
21/08/2011 23:28:31 ‹Omniverse› i agree
21/08/2011 23:28:42 ‹DoubleHelix› you've got to trust your power of discernment and your intuition
21/08/2011 23:28:48 ‹DoubleHelix› and listen to what resonates
21/08/2011 23:28:58 ‹Omniverse› yea its multi faceted
21/08/2011 23:29:04 ‹DoubleHelix› all paramount to finding the truth
21/08/2011 23:29:24 ‹Omniverse› the problems skeptics have is they dont have those discernment skills. they need proof. AKA easy mode.. beginners :P
21/08/2011 23:29:49 ‹DoubleHelix› yeh
21/08/2011 23:29:51 ‹Omniverse› proof is nice
21/08/2011 23:30:03 ‹DoubleHelix› cross-referencing is key
21/08/2011 23:30:03 ‹Omniverse› but ur not gonna get proof of the full extent of reality. the deeper stuff. almost never
21/08/2011 23:30:05 ‹Omniverse› so far anyway
21/08/2011 23:30:08 ‹DoubleHelix› multiple sources
21/08/2011 23:30:09 ‹Omniverse› yea i agree
21/08/2011 23:30:24 ‹DoubleHelix› and using your damn loaf, connect those dots
21/08/2011 23:30:27 ‹Omniverse› u mind if i post this chat log in a thread DH[and state later]? i think its a good chat
21/08/2011 23:30:37 ‹DoubleHelix› go right ahead
23:34:24 ‹StateOfTheHeart› yeah go for it man

I think everyone or almost everyone can be at least a tiny bit better in their discerning reality. I'd venture to say every single human on this planet is delusional in some way(if not multiple ways, i mean there is only ONE way to be right, and countless ways to be wrong, and there are thousands of things to judge in a lifetime). Maybe just with ego and their view of themselves[delusions]. Almost definitely in beliefs.

The only people on this planet who aren't delusional in most likelihood are the ones who don't believe anything. I've never met one of those :p

Anyway, optimally we would be very careful in what we believe, and what we say. If we believe something that is baseless and wrong and easily debunkable, by speaking it, it predictively programs people (not so much avalonians but still dynamics of this here in a smaller form IMHO) to disregard the legitimate stuff we say.

Let Charlie Veitch teach us a lesson(not literally from his knowledge, just from what happened with him). A few baseless conspiracy theories(or supposed facts that are misinfo amongst truth) go a long way in being counter productive in terms of how many people wake up.

One of the major things I have learned about TPTB who mind control me, is they focus a lot of how credible things are. They sabotage what they do not want credible(ruthlessly and often very methodically), and sensationalize and barrage people's minds what they want credible(using a large bag of tricks, NLP, mind control, predictive programming, fear, certain drugs, etc). They obviously use the tactic of repeating a lie enough times to get it believed...

Anyway, I think it's very important to work on that rare balance of skepticism, and open mindedness. Most forums I go to, the forums have way too little open mindedness to figure out deeper truths. Avalon flourishes there. However all of us could probably upgrade our skepticism/open mindedness matrix.

Good to search and see what the skeptics are saying about some things. Because they do occasionally bring something valuable to the table. Certainly no skeptic site will give you anywhere near a clear picture of reality in it's deeper depths. But I've learned from mindsets alien to my own in ways from being on sites with skeptical minds. I think knowing you don't know so much is a major first step to wisdom here(i know the quote or philosophy is beaten to death but not so practiced by many, however i'm not speaking of avalon in saying that).

Self analysis is very valuable. Self reflection. Self perfection. Skepticism is like a bad word to me after all the haters I've had on various forums. But skepticism is key. Having that balance of brain or mind or perception.

Like I said in the chat log, discernment is very multi faceted. Intuition, logic, evidence, etc. It is all fallible in ways at times, and all very useful too. I find my intuition with people, is more spot on, and my intuition with events, is more prone to be fallible.

You can also throw in the psychic element, but that can mislead too at times. Of course not when it is fully functional but no psychic is fully functional to a high degree that I've seen. Only on beginner levels of universal psychic ability in humans IMHO. If I had to guess I would say how the mind breaks down psychic levels of subconscious, is based on structure in one form(also at times based on imagination). That structure may be misinterpreted IMHO. However psychic ability is probably very multi-faceted and multi-dimensional, I'm no expert, just have my own observations and points I can offer for analysis :) So I'm probably only covering a fragment of the picture there by saying it's based on structure(i'm sure there are concepts and pretty much every other level of consciousness involved too). Kind of like how we structure reality and base our hypothesis and beliefs on it. We all share some structure of reality, and all hold varying levels of truth in subjects we specialize in, or subjects we are just barely familiar with. Like the structure of religion. If ETs designed religion to mislead us(which some think, I dont believe or disbelieve that atm), it would be based on the structure of truth, or the structure or genetic perception variables, to cover enough structure to be an illusion that is absorbed fully.

For example structure I see in Islam and Christianity.

A creator

planes of yin yang(misinterpreted structure IMO, not heaven and hell in afterlife, heaven and hell IN life). Illusions with structures closer to reality are more absorbent.

Moral structure(the good effect it has had at times, although not fully consistent). This one flares up peoples heart and fools their intuition into illusions IMHO with modern religion(I hope nobody feels disrespected by that thought and belief of mine, i certainly do not see myself as a superior human being than a christian or muslim).

etc. Just one example. It's hard to get a perfect text on the concept I'm trying to display at this second because it's a very complex concept that I have never fully tried to explain as far as I know.... If anyone has a better explanation, worded more eloquently, feel free to share :)



Perfecting ones self in our multidimensional nature as well as our understanding of reality, is key to our purpose in being on such a lowly developed planet(not a dis to earth just a reality IHMO). Everyone here is growing and if they aren't it's because they are stagnant, not mastered(at least in every case I have EVER seen, I acknowledge the possibility of someone being fully mastered....)

Your thoughts?

-Omni

[ulli]

You got it, Omni.
I congratulate you.
One thing about beliefs... without them we wouldn't function.

Just putting one's foot out of bed in the morning is based on the belief that the ground can sustain one's weight.
So any experience we have never come across before is still a challenge....
New beliefs need to be chosen, together with what we wish to experience.

[DNA]

The word skeptic gets a bad rap.
I think there are a couple of ways to look at the word skeptic.
For instance, the folks here at Avalon, are in some ways the most skeptical people on the planet.
This is because we refuse to believe the news as reported by mainstream media, we refuse to believe the stand pat declaration by our government that there are no such thing as flying saucers, we refuse to believe that the political structure of this country isn't compromised.

Those who believe everything the media says along with the government grant fed scientists of the world and the scholars of sanitized acadamia are the believers without proper skepticism in my opinion.

[13th Warrior]

I'll only add this...

Use common sense; in the original meaning of the phrase.

All six of your senses must agree upon the validity of a subject; if even one of the senses does not bear truth than no truth can be found.

[ktlight]

Belief is a concept. Something to do with consciousness that can be dealt with by understanding thought.

I don't believe that the ground might not be there when I step out of bed. I think belief has more to do with what cannot be seen, or felt. Belief comes in then if you are asked to accept the unseen or unfelt as reality.

I hope I haven't been led off topic.

[DNA]

Belief is a concept. Something to do with consciousness that can be dealt with by understanding thought.

I don't believe that the ground might not be there when I step out of bed. I think belief has more to do with what cannot be seen, or felt. Belief comes in then if you are asked to accept the unseen or unfelt as reality.

I hope I haven't been led off topic.

No your not off topic, I completly agree with your point.
I was going to contrast the wisdom of a taoist sage in eastern philosophy versus the wisdom of the western logic of say Neitche.

I've heard the endless logic loops, but logic is inherently llimited in my opinion, and although the eastern taoist sage may not win a whole lot of debates, I feel the taoist through deactiviating the conscious mind as you talk about Ktlight, activates mind that is quite capable of action and less dependent on belief.

I personally think belief is a form of lethargy.
Belief is ussually a state where one is no longer accepting new data on a subject and has delegated said subject to a static status.

[Mad Hatter]

To put that another way...

A conclusion is where you got tired of thinking!!

[NancyV]

For the past several years I've been more and more involved on a daily basis in trying to suspend my belief and non belief in anything. These two opposites seem to me to be equally limiting. I do have preferences and I reach judgments about things just to make life easier, but as far as absolutely believing or disbelieving anything I try to constantly be aware that all things are multilayered, complex and changeable. It's very challenging to not believe anything but still not disbelieve anything. I guess it's a state of detachment. The most difficult beliefs to discard are the ones about my own personal abilities, such as my thought that I cannot be controlled. LOL... That's a laughable one.

Since we have had continual programming bombarding us since the day we were born from our parents, family, peers, media, education system (and maybe aliens or AI's), it seems reasonable to assume that most anything we "believe" is a part of, or heavily influenced by, that programming and patterning. The older I get the more I see how many of my habits, thoughts and actions are patterned from my very young childhood. So many times I hear my mother or father talking through me. I assume this is natural as babies are imprinted with their patterns in the first few years of life. These very early learned behaviors are some of the most difficult to recognize and either accept as comfortable or break away from. Lucky for me I like most of my mothers' and fathers' characteristics that were imprinted on me, but even if you had excellent parents your conditioning is still something that most often and probably always restricts your ability to be open minded.

You are not alone in being controlled, Omniverse. It seems pretty clear to me that all of us are controlled here on earth and most of the control is so subtle that we don't even realize that we're accepting and even embracing it. We like to think we are free and that we control our own lives, but I am not sure how much true freedom we actually have. Perhaps we earth humans are also all controlled or influenced by AI's or ET's or some other temporarily external force other than our normal parental and societal patterning. You may just be a special project of theirs who has more knowledge of and more close contact with them.

Even when out of body and traveling on other planes and dimensions there is a process one goes through (at least I went through it for many years) of discarding "beliefs" and fears. There is also the propensity to take on other beliefs if you're in lower dimensions. So things don't completely change just because you die or travel consciously on other planes of existence.

I never felt completely whole until I became one with the Source. That seems logical. When we come into the creation we are separate. The lower we go in vibrational frequency and density the more separated we are and the more conflict, internal and "external" we experience. There are more beings who want to control and influence others besides themselves. This all seems to me to be a natural process since each being is ultimately striving to become ONE with ALL and by controlling others they feel less threatened by their separation.

Perhaps religion may be a useful thing here on earth. Even though I don't like organized religion it may help in controlling those who have little self control, those who would otherwise, without religious values, more often give into their desires to control others and gain material possessions and thus constitute a danger to people and society in general. A case could also be made that religions are detrimental because they have fostered many wars. People have killed others for religious differences all throughout history.

Beliefs and non beliefs (which are just another belief) are probably equally responsible for causing problems on individual and societal levels. Rabid skepticism, if taken to the point of an absolute disbelief, is not only annoying, it's stupid. If one is mildly skeptical of everything and does not embrace absolute belief in anything, there is a better chance of remaining balanced and open minded.